Inspector Arrived - Need basement ventilation

[daveswoodhauler]

Ok, I know you folks are sick of me here, but I have another one for you.

Building Inspector came out today, and took a walkthough of my plans for the basement remodel
Went over all the insulation/details I was going to do, and he gave me a thumbs up on what my plan was. (You folks have made me smarter, and I appreciate it...I actually thought he was pretty happy with all the research you folks showed me on what to do/not to do on the insulation issue)

Here is the situation: I only have 2 small windows (16X30) in the basement, and a bulkhead. So in order to meet code, I need to install some sort of mechanical ventilation system. Building inspector suggested "aprillaire" (not sure if I spelled it right), but from the products I have seen they are made for use with forced hot air systems. (We have forced hot water, and will be going with an additional zone in the basement)

I have seen a lot of "gadgetry" online, and seem to solve the world problems.....but all I need is something to bring in fresh air and exhaust damp air...gotta read more code on what type of CFM's I need, but was hoping that someone here has one/installed one? (I live in Central Massachusetts, to give you an idea of the climate) Also, really not sure how these things work.....as I don't think I would want to have cold air from outside entering the heated area in the winter.....sore reading for me I guess.

Many Thanks.

 

[seige101]

Here is a good site to checkout with some good products and solutions.
http://www.broan.com/display/router.asp?docid=48&CategoryID=512

The premise is an exhaust fan runs either at a low setting continuously or on a timer. They also provide fresh air in that passes through a heat exchanger to change the air.

Also check out some products by panasonic, they are super energy efficient.

 

[Later]

He was probably referring to a product like this.

 

[NothingLikeWood]

Hi there.

HRVs (Heat Recovery Ventilators) are normal up here in Canada. They are required for every new builds but can be found in older (well insulated) homes too. It keeps the air inside a well insulated home fresh, reduces mold and helps with window condensation. They exchange air throughout the entire house but they are able to recuperate some of the heat in the exchange process (ours has a rating of 70% efficiency on the exchange). You can go with an air exhanger (no heat recovery) but you'll be sending a lot of valuable heat out your house. The new thing on the market is an Energy Recovery Ventilator and this type of unit will also dehumidify/humidify the air as required. These are more popular in the prairies (mid-west).

Here is a good link to describe what an HRV does: http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/Publications/infosource/Pub/hrv/contents.cfm?attr=4
The last page gives you a list of different companies that make HRVs and I`m sure you can most if not all operating in the USA.

I would recommend to take a look at the Venmar line of products. It is one of the best marketed up here and has been around for a lont time. It is a cousin to what we have installed in our home (Venmar is the version sold in North America while Vanee, which we have, is only available in Canada). By the way, the majority of HRV companies are now owned by the same company:Broan.

A dealer will help you size a unit but if you want to sound a bit educated, one of the dealer sites for the cousin models (Vanee) has a calculator for sizing a unit...this could give you an idea of what to look for. ((broken link removed to http://vanee.ca/vanEE_sales.php) and click on the sizing. Enter your home`s particluars and it will e-mail you back a unit. Browse though the brochure for that unit to see the CFM exhange rate). You can also buy HRVs at home building stores here in Canada (Home Depot) but I`ve been told that those units are the `bottom of the line`. I`ve been pricing units as the bearings on ours are starting to fail (pretty good for running continuously for 18 years).

You will also have to factor in the cost of dedicating ductwork for your home. You`ll need outgoing exhaust ducts for each wet room (bathroom, kitchen and laundry) and incoming ducting for each room in the rest of the rooms in your house. The Master incoming is sized usually twice the cfm of a normal bedroom and be sure to install the outgoing ductwork near the wet space (like near the shower in the bathroom and not near the doorway as that will just suck out new clean air from the hallway). The grilles are at ceiling height so you don't feel any drafts. The unit must be balanced (exhaust = intake) or you could have trouble with any appliance that burns - negative pressure is not kind to them. We have an OAK on our wood stove just to be on the safe side.

Don`t be too concerned if you are ducting an existing home...it can be done, my parents did that and they have insulated ductwork running through the ceiling.

A few last thoughts. Your house may not be a closed system so you have to keep that in mind when sizing a unit. Our vent over the kitchen stove and the bathroom fans do not vent outside, but rather through the air exchanger. I have it running on medium fan speed in the winter and low speed in the summer. If you open windows in the summer it is recommended to turn them off (save $ but not a lot..ours uses 120 watts) as they are not adding to the ventilation. We don't turn ours off as I rarely open the basement windows and I want to get the fresh air down there over the summer months. II don't think running one of these will make your power bill unbearable but if it helps, we have a super insulated house (6" insulated walls, polystyrene under poured concrete basement and R40 in the ceiling (to be upgraded to R50 this summer) and our power bill for a 4 bedroom bungalow with a finished basement (totalling 2700 square feet) was $200 last month (including the 13%tax) and our rate is 9.6 cents a KW for the first 1300 and 9.2 for the rest...the Canadian dollar is almost at par with the greenback these days so that simplifies the calculation. We supplement out baseboard electric by running a wood stove in the evenings and weekends only and don't get up to load in the middle of the night. This is our first year burning and we shaved off $100 last month.

Hope that helps you & good luck with the reno.

 

[fbelec]

Ok, I know you folks are sick of me here, but I have another one for you.

Building Inspector came out today, and took a walkthough of my plans for the basement remodel
Went over all the insulation/details I was going to do, and he gave me a thumbs up on what my plan was. (You folks have made me smarter, and I appreciate it...I actually thought he was pretty happy with all the research you folks showed me on what to do/not to do on the insulation issue)

Here is the situation: I only have 2 small windows (16X30) in the basement, and a bulkhead. So in order to meet code, I need to install some sort of mechanical ventilation system. Building inspector suggested "aprillaire" (not sure if I spelled it right), but from the products I have seen they are made for use with forced hot air systems. (We have forced hot water, and will be going with an additional zone in the basement)

I have seen a lot of "gadgetry" online, and seem to solve the world problems.....but all I need is something to bring in fresh air and exhaust damp air...gotta read more code on what type of CFM's I need, but was hoping that someone here has one/installed one? (I live in Central Massachusetts, to give you an idea of the climate) Also, really not sure how these things work.....as I don't think I would want to have cold air from outside entering the heated area in the winter.....sore reading for me I guess.

Many Thanks.

i've hooked up a few aprilaire humidifiers and dehumidifiers for a plumber. good quality stuff.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Thanks for the info folks.....I checked out the Broan Smart System, and I am going to check with the inspector to see if this will meet the needs.

Probably should have provided more info:

The basement room when finished will only be appx 450 sq/ft, and we do not have any current ducting now. (Forced hot water via radiators) So, this room will be basically be a playroom for the kids.

Some of the links from the prior posters look like pretty slick systems, but essentially we are only looking for a system to get the sign off from the inspector, as budget is a big issue....aagain, the room is only about 400-450 feet if you include a few closets.

Thanks for the info

 

[gzecc]

Ilikewood, I am interested in the inspectors solution. Please keep us updated.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Ilikewood, I am interested in the inspectors solution. Please keep us updated.

I will keep you posted.....I have a feeling that he is not going to allow the system (Broan) as it only exhausts air, and doesn't bring in fresh air....since we are going to remove the door/doorway at the top of the stairs to the basement, and I going to try to explain that fresh air will be brought down.

I hope that this is not going to be a budget buster....just want the kids to have a rumpus room, and a place for my 7 year old to play with his HO Scale Train set, that is currently in my home office right now

I likke the idea of having clean air brought into the basement, but I don't want to spend half my $$$ n the renovation to be taken up by an air exchanger

 

[burnham]

I've wired some fresh air intake fans that were just hooked up to run when the furnace called for heat. They were not connected to the duct work in any way, and just dumped cold air in the basement in the area the furnace was in. I wired a few basements in Acton MA and the GC figured this was the most "cost effective" way of making the inspector happy. I believe he used a Tjerlund unit. I'm just saying this because if you're only looking to comply with code it may be the way to go. I have not seen a building inspector ask for a fan to exhaust air from a basement, only replenish air used in combustion. Not saying I've "seen it all" by any means. Some places would let you just install a piece of 4" pipe for make-up air, with no fan or anything, but I don't know the building code enough to say if it's legal or not.

 

[billb3]

Does it have to be a mechanical sysytem ?

1. I'd rather have more natural light and might consider more windows. Maybe even an egress window.
(my basement doesn't have enough windows, either, but the house is a hundred years old and the foundation may be older)
2. Do you have to have 4% ventilation or the capacity for 4% ventilation ?
(windows open in the Summer, closed in the Winter)


I'd rather have the mechanical system myself for the potentially fresher air.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

I've wired some fresh air intake fans that were just hooked up to run when the furnace called for heat. They were not connected to the duct work in any way, and just dumped cold air in the basement in the area the furnace was in. I wired a few basements in Acton MA and the GC figured this was the most "cost effective" way of making the inspector happy. I believe he used a Tjerlund unit. I'm just saying this because if you're only looking to comply with code it may be the way to go. I have not seen a building inspector ask for a fan to exhaust air from a basement, only replenish air used in combustion. Not saying I've "seen it all" by any means. Some places would let you just install a piece of 4" pipe for make-up air, with no fan or anything, but I don't know the building code enough to say if it's legal or not.

Thanks for the info Burnham....I've been reading the Mass Code 780, and basically you need to have natural ventilation of 4% of your living area....if you do not meet the 4%, then you have to have mechanical ventilation......but whenever I look for the specs on mechanical ventilation, I cannot find any details of CFM, what is required of air coming in, air exhausting etc..... If I could get my hands on what the requirement is, I could get a better idea of what I need...only info I can find is venting for ranges and bathrooms....noting on what is required for ventilating a normal room.....going bonkers, but I'll get it done

The basement will be 1/3rd unfinished (area for furnace, washer/dryer, well tank, etc.) and the remaining 2/3rds will be finished. I guess I could somehow have a fresh air intake installed when the draw calles for heat, but this is going to be in a seperate room from the living area.

Maybe I'll start a blog on the whole process

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Does it have to be a mechanical sysytem ?

1. I'd rather have more natural light and might consider more windows. Maybe even an egress window.
(my basement doesn't have enough windows, either, but the house is a hundred years old and the foundation may be older)
2. Do you have to have 4% ventilation or the capacity for 4% ventilation ?
(windows open in the Summer, closed in the Winter)


I'd rather have the mechanical system myself for the potentially fresher air.

I agree with you that I would rather have natural light as well....problem is that I only have 2 small windows 16 X 32 I believe....open half way, and then I do have an insulated door to outside, but it is in a bulkhead (not walkout)
If I had a walkout basement, I would be in business....was thinking of perhaps building a small doghouse type thing instead of the bulkhead, but can't as the roof would interfere with an upstairs window.

 

[fbelec]

I've wired some fresh air intake fans that were just hooked up to run when the furnace called for heat. They were not connected to the duct work in any way, and just dumped cold air in the basement in the area the furnace was in. I wired a few basements in Acton MA and the GC figured this was the most "cost effective" way of making the inspector happy. I believe he used a Tjerlund unit. I'm just saying this because if you're only looking to comply with code it may be the way to go. I have not seen a building inspector ask for a fan to exhaust air from a basement, only replenish air used in combustion. Not saying I've "seen it all" by any means. Some places would let you just install a piece of 4" pipe for make-up air, with no fan or anything, but I don't know the building code enough to say if it's legal or not.

i've been working in a house that has that type of air. i think it's a nickname but we call it air in a can. this house is 80 years old a week ago we had some melting and rain and the basement got wet. no funny smells in the basement. i think it not only gave the boiler combustion air but just a little fresh air to change things around also. works well.