# backup/supplemental heater for wood stove



## snowleopard (Oct 11, 2011)

Hi folks, 

This is not about a wood boiler, but I was told that people who might be able to answer my question could be found in this forum.


My house is a well-insulated 2000sf, two-story house in interior Alaska.  I'm up in the hills a bit, so don't see the extremes of temperatures some folk around here do--probably -40/-45 is the coldest I've seen here, but we do get extended stretches below -20/-30.  When I bought the place (almost four years ago), the place had an older System 2000 in the detached garage, and a utilidor about 30' long circulated heat to the house.  Huge tempering tank in the utility closet in the house holding a fortune in glycol, no mixing valve, Quest tubing, so some issues.  The downstairs was cozy with in-floor heating, upstairs was a challenge to keep warm when it was really cold out.   Average oil consumption was about 830 gallons annually--a lot by L48 standards, but about half of what some similar sized houses around here use, so the place does hold heat very well. 

About a year ago, I had a woodstove installed in my house.   Helped a lot, and the place was warmer than it had been with the boiler.  Midwinter ice-storm and resultant power fluctuations (did I mention no power-fluctuation protection?) fried the boiler controls and it overheated (did I mention no take-up tank?) and blew gylcol all over the garage and destroyed the boiler.  

We heated with wood the rest of the winter, and it worked.  I had sufficient wood--just--to get us through.  Attempts to purchase firewood this summer came to not much--let down or burned by three different people, and I am not set up with sufficient wood to get us through.  Also tired of not being able to control this aspect of what I really need to have work smoothly.  (Single mom, full-time job, longish commute, bum knee makes it hard to do for myself.) 

Have been quoted $12K to replace boiler, get it installed, and get the existing problems fixed.  I think the people who gave me these estimates are competent and know their stuff--but I just can't afford that right now.  I'd been planning on trying to get through the winter on wood as best I can, and feeling pretty stressed about the idea (also feeling stressed at the idea of coming up with $12K) when it occured to me that there might be a compromise solution.   I'm wondering about installing either a oil or propane burning heater that will keep the house from cooling off between wood stove burns, and supply sufficient heat to keep the house warm and functional.  

Not looking for something to just keep the place from freezing up, or to be tripping over electric heaters.  I want a comfortable, functional house in which we can get on with living.  The wood stove takes us about 85% of the way, but for those times when it's not enough--or if something goes wrong with it or my wood supply, I want more.   I'd like to do what seems to me to be the right thing--spend the money for the boiler job--but the reality is that I don't have it.  (People keep suggesting that as a solution, which is why I am being repetitive about that.)  

One unit I'm looking at is the Laser 73.  I figure I can put maybe $2000-2500 into this project.  

Very open to considering all suggestions.  Brand names and specific units are helpful for me to get an idea of what you might be talking about.  I have infloor tubing downstairs, baseboard upstairs, am open to considering utilizing these within the framework specified. 

Thanks very much for taking the time to read this, and for any wisdom and experience you have to share in this.


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## stee6043 (Oct 11, 2011)

You may want to post this in the "It's a Gas" room as well.  There are a lot of folks knowledgable in the area of natural gas/propane over there.

I don't think I can help a whole lot with your situation but my two cents is that a propane "backup" would be vastly preferred over oil (at least in my area).  Propane is cleaner, easier to work with and should be less expensive.  Although being in Alaska I really have no idea what your local market would be like.  Do you have easy access to both?

I know you said you don't want electric but you also said you can provide 85% of your heat demand with wood.  In my house I have installed electric oil radiators ($50/$60 each) in the kids rooms to keep them a few degrees warmer than the rest of the house at night.  These units are very affordable, come with thermostats and timers, look nice and have only a moderate impact on my electric bill.  And they kick off some heat.

Would it make sense to invest a few hundred dollars this year on a temporary solution and save your money for the ultimate "big fix" for your boiler?  I'd never recommend heating your whole house with electric rad's but if you're really only looking for 15% maybe this would be a reasonable approach.


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## Highbeam (Oct 11, 2011)

You've got a heating emergency. This isn't a time to be cute, people could die. 

Normally you can provide 85% of your heat from wood but this year you didn't get wood for burning. We must assume that you'll be trying to stay alive in -45 degree temps in interior alaska with children and no wood heat. 

Get electric heaters, room heaters, and use them. If the power goes out then burn some of your emergency wood supply. Plan on having enough fuel in your vehicle to evacuate the home. Plan on trying to get more wood ASAP, even green wood and split it small. 

Think survival and not about being comfortable.


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## Mike T (Oct 11, 2011)

Another vote for a propane heater with an outside tank They don't need a chimney and can vent out the side of the home. You also don't have to worry about the propane getting jelled up in the cold.

I don't know your supply situation, but a pellet stove may be an option.


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## snowleopard (Oct 11, 2011)

Gentlemen, thanks so much for your replies.

To clarify, last year I supplied 100% of my heat from January on with wood.  It would be more accurate to say that 85% of the time, I can get by with wood heat, and I am certain I could find a way to get through this year with wood, but for the sake of sanity and lowering the stress level, I would really like to have options.  

My wood supply then consisted of using up the mouldering piles of firewood that PO had left stacked, probably ten years old at that point, almost all of it aspen.  This year, I paid for 3 cords of pre-sap-rising birch in March, got 1.5 cut to specified length, and another half cord cut too long.  Split and stacked the stuff that was short enough to fit in my stove under cover, and stacked the too-long stuff and left it because seller said he would come and put it right.  Never did.  

Bought another cord and a half that was split and stacked in March also (different seller).  Unfortunately, that hasn't seasoned as well as the first load because that was uncovered, and it's been a very rainy summer. 

Bought a ten-cord load from a third seller in May.  He's delivered two (2) so far.  Many excuses, little wood.  That was birch, and my plan was for that to be three cords each winter for 12-13, 13-14, 14-15, supplemented with a couple of cords of aspen and/or spruce. 

Have standing/laying dead wood on my property that I have been trying to get harvested, but it's not easy to get to, and I'm not much of a hand with a chainsaw, and have been plagued with truck breakdowns all.summer.long.   Paid someone to come and work the wood up for me, but that turned out to be a bust, too--didn't come when he said he would, came when I wasn't there, some of what he cut was rotten, some green, maybe half a cord useable, used my chainsaw, didn't sharpen it with each use, ran it dull and then said it wouldn't cut anymore, left a mess, moved my tools and left them laying around.  If the snow had hit before I found my splitting mauls, I would have been skunked.  grrrrrrr.   

Got a few cords of fire-killed spruce from someone who said he would sell it cut to length and split.  Delivery came in log lengths, said he would come back and work it up, didn't come yet.  That's nice stuff, and when I get a good fire going with this stuff, the first bunch of birch will burn pretty well.   But I've still got to get it worked up.  Was planning on getting more of the fire-killed stuff, but seller's truck and phone is down.  And so it goes.  My plan was to have all my wood squared away by the first of July, but here I am.   

My children are teenagers--one away at college, and one in high school that can be persuaded to help some when not busy with school/sports, so it's not as critical as I may have made it sound.  It's not so much life-threatening as damned inconvenient.   I'll have to travel out of town for work next month, and while my son has held down the fort before, he's done it with a boiler and a request to not burn wood while I was away.  I would prefer to leave him with an idiot-proof setup.  My house is set up so that all the plumbing can be drained if necessary, so if worse came to worst, I could always drain her down and let it sit empty and let him stay with friends for a week.  

We usually don't see the extreme weather until Dec-Jan-Feb-Mar, so I've got a bit of time to figure things out.   But earlier would be nice. 

The electric baseboard might be the perfect solution for my kitchen where the floor gets cold.  That's the only plumbing on an outside wall, and even though the wall is earth sheltered there, it gets cold.  I could bury heaters in a kickspace and get electricity to it easily.  

I'm thinking not just survival, but function for the next several years.  Experience suggests that things are going to be tight until the kids get through school.   

I heard from someone in the loop that propane runs about twice as much as oil per btu here. 

Several people are heating their houses complete with the Toyo stoves, which is why I'm considering that route.  Other things that have occurred to me is a quasi-boiler solution--just hook up an inexpensive boiler to the downstairs in-floor tubing only--no mixing valve required.


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## Mike T (Oct 11, 2011)

The Toyo stove looks like it would do the exact same for you as a propane boiler without a new fuel system. Never heard of them before though..


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## snowleopard (Oct 11, 2011)

Mike T said:
			
		

> The Toyo stove looks like it would do the exact same for you as a propane boiler without a new fuel system. Never heard of them before though..



Interesting.  They're ubiquitous around here.  My fuel tanks are set up behind the garage, and I'd have to move one of them closer to the house.   Stove store owner said that they get a more uniform heat than even the woodstove does, because you don't have the fluctuations.  

Just talked to someone here who said that they're heating their 1800 sf house almost completely with that--run the boiler a bit when the floor is super cold.  Their fuel bill dropped a lot when they went that route.


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## willworkforwood (Oct 12, 2011)

Snowleopard, you have collected quite a group of bozos and losers in your search for wood.  Very unfortunate, and it's always sad to hear about people like that who don't have enough respect for themselves and others to even try to do a decent job.  Do you have a vehicle that could transport pallets?  There are probably places on your trip to work that may be able to supply you with wood pallets (which they sometimes need to pay to have removed anyway).  Many business receive goods shipped on pallets - you might find quite a few possibilities.  If you told them you were looking for pallets for firewood, most would probably be very willing to help you out.  Pallets make great firewood, either alone, or mixed in to balance your greenish stuff.  You would need a circular or table saw to cut them up (recip and others are possible also).  It would take a fair amount of your time handling and cutting, but the job doesn't require brute strength, and could be done even by someone with a bum knee (but a lot faster by a teenage boy  ;-) ) Eye protection is a must for this job.  Also +1 to the small electric heaters, until you can get something better.  Good luck - I hope it works out for you!


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## salecker (Oct 12, 2011)

Hi Snow
 I think that the toyo is probably your best option,they are very efficient,no chimney to have installed and you already have the fuel tank.They also hold their value if you decide in a year or two to come up with a new boiler.They are twice as much $$ on this side of the border.Make sure you get one that is big enough,and make sure the fuel is good quality.
 I deliver fuel as part of my business,and i'm always amazed how little fuel they use compared to a average oil furnace.Fuel quality is very important to it's reliability.
  And they don't take a big generator to run if the power is out.
  Wish i could send you some of the million's of standing dead spruce we have around our town.
 Good Luck
 Thomas


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## jebatty (Oct 12, 2011)

We faced the same question 24 years ago. The 1500 sq ft house we bought had electric baseboard, but even with a 65% electricity discount for interruptible electric, the cost was too high. So we bought a wood stove and put it in the living room and that stove heats the whole house very nicely. Now, what if a storm in mid-winter that takes out electric power and we are gone on a winter vacation or visiting family out of town? Or we are gone and -35F winter weather and electric heat is interrupted for extended periods?

The solution was a wall cabinet style vented LP gas heater, 35000 btuh rating, with a 100 gallon LP tank, and most importantly a millivolt thermostat, no electric fan, convection heating, no requirement that electricity be available for the heater to work. We put it on a wall next to where the wood stove was, practically unnoticeable. Now, if a power outage or interrupted electric, we're gone, and the house drops to the millivolt thermostat setting, this heater comes on, can provide about 2 weeks worth of heat, and the house will stay above freezing. Or, turn up the thermostat and provide some supplemental heat, which we really do not need with our wood stove.

The best thing about this heater is that is an insurance policy against disaster and peace of mind. We always give it a test each winter to make sure it works, and it always has. One of our better investments, the best being the wood stove.


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## snowleopard (Oct 12, 2011)

Willwork, thanks for the suggestion for the pallets. I'm really hoping to find a solution that is not quite so labor- and time-intensive as this.  Even getting pallets home for stacking wood proved to be a bit much for me.  Swung by after work to grab some one day because place near where I work had a bunch (and they are pretty hard to get sometimes).  To be honest, trying to load these heavy pallets into my truck in my work clothes was very discouraging (the irony is that I rushed to gather them because I was expecting a delivery that didn't come).   I just don't think I want to add this to my daily chore list.  It would mean that things that need to get done (including a little time to relax at the end of the day) don't happen.   Even the wood is a bit of a time-eater--I was just hoping to be at the point where we would have all the wood we needed stacked outside the door and ready to go, instead of still scrambling in October.    I agree that my son can do a lot of the labor that's involved, but by the time we're at the end of the day, there just doesn't seem to be much time left.   If I can find a solution that burns a gallon or two of oil, or the equivalent in gas, it would work better for us on a lot of levels.  There are circumstances where that's the right choice, but I just can't see that working for us.   I thank you, though, for the suggestion.  I want to leave no stone unturned in considering solutions, and that's exactly why I posted--looking for ideas. 

Salecker, I've never thought much about fuel quality.  I just figure if you get the kind (#1 or #2) when you order fuel deliveries, you're all set.  What else should I be looking for to control quality?   I am also looking now at Monitor heaters.  Do you know anything about these vs. Toyos?  Odd that the price should be so much higher in CA, considering that Toyos are imports for both of us.   Thanks for the reply and kind thoughts re: your standing dead spruce.  Sounds like woodburner's heaven.   Did you have a fire there, or did the beetles come through there?   From your sig line, it appears that this is a very busy time for you.  I thank you for taking the time to reply, and for your suggestions.  

jebatty, I've not looked at these units at all, but am googling them now.   Something else to consider. I was told that oil is currently about half the cost of propane by btus around here.   We've got natural gas sitting in the ground up on the North Slope, but little incentive to bring it to the local market.  These units are still intriguing, especially the power-failure option.  I'm leaning towards oil right now, but I thank you for the suggestion in any case.  We don't travel that much in the winter, and I plan on putting a battery backup system on the Toyo/Monitor if I go that route.


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## Ehouse (Oct 12, 2011)

Hello,

If your boiler is shot, what are you using to heat your domestic hot water?  It is possible to use your water heater for space heating.  I use a Turbonics "Toester" two speed (two fan) kick space heater rated at 5,000 to 11,000 btu under a cabinet.  Has a low/off/high switch and an aquastat.  Relatively easy to install with Sharkbite fittings and some Pex tubing.  It can also go under a stair tread.  This is a type of fan coil.   Wall mount, ceiling mount, Floor mount are other options,  I use a hydronic garage heater ( another type of fan coil) in my defunct furnace plenum to top off my heat, although it works off my boiler.  Most manufacturers make water heaters rated for supplemental space heating so you might consider a new one using propane or oil.  

Once you get over the idea of a single heat source there are many possibilities.  A direct vent LP heater can throw off a lot of heat and operate in a power outage.  Those electric oil filled heaters are also great, and they're portable.   I use them in bedrooms and move them around as needed.  they don't seem to impact my electric bill much.  Think about extra insulation above and around your bedrooms.  In my house I use all of the above plus a small wood stove, I love having lots of options.  

I'm a DIY scrounge so I won"t try to tell you how to install any of these things but I'm sure many on this forum will chime in.  A fan coil or two (easy install) and a couple of oil fill'ds ( plug in) might be all you need.  But a fancy little DV stove/fireplace might be nice.  Good luck!

Ehouse


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## snowleopard (Oct 12, 2011)

Ehouse said:
			
		

> Once you get over the idea of a single heat source there are many possibilities.
> 
> Ehouse



Thanks, Ehouse.  This is actually the thought that I've been playing with tonight--just kind of a paradigm shift about how to heat this place.  My hot water is electric, and is in a utility closet under the stairs.  I've been thinking about venting some of that waste heat into my son's bedroom which is just off the landing at the head of the stairs.  A little sideways jog there, and possibly a fan to pull some air up, or possibly just a hot-air-rises approach.  

I have a few oil-filled electric heaters.  They always seem to migrate to my kids' bedrooms when it gets chilly.  

You're right, those DV gas fireplaces can be very appealing--the ones that Woodstock and Hearthstone make are very pretty.  Not in my budget this year, but down the road it might be nice. 

My only real plumbing worry is the kitchen piping that is on the outside wall.  If I could access it and wrap it with heat tape, I'd probably feel a lot of pressure off.  Unfortunately it isn't going to be very easy to get at.  I could pull the cabinets, but oy vey!  

Conflicting advice locally.  Stove store guy who knows the stove I've got thinks  a Laser 73 could give me the boost I need to make the place work.   A local installer said that one just wouldn't do the job, I'd need one on both floors.  I'm inclined to be conservative.    Maybe start with a direct vent heater (still doing my homework on which kind of fuel to go with, and which brands), and see how far that takes me.  Install a vent in the floor in my son's room and duct some heat in that way.  Step at a time.  Wish I'd known last spring I'd be going this direction, as the snow is a few weeks away at best, and moving tanks/ installation is more easily done before the snow hits.  Such is life. 

Again--for all replies and consideration--I thank you.  Just being able to talk this out, hear ideas, look up options--all of this helps speed up the thinking-through process considerably, and time is not on my side right now.  This helps.


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## salecker (Oct 12, 2011)

Morning Snow
 Moniters are basically the same it's a chev/ford deal.Fuel Quality,make sure it's # !,get as close to keroseen as you can,I know a few people that had to get theirs cleaned because they used heavier fuel in them.Some companies around here get their fuel from the cheapest source,which usually dosn't meet the specs for them.
 If you have a crawl space under your floor you might install there and open some holes in the floor..
 I know i'v thought about one for backup,the only thing we are worried about is we are tring to eliminate any flame source's from our house.
 Thomas


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## snowleopard (Oct 12, 2011)

Hey Thomas, 

Thanks for the tip about the fuel. I'll make a point of learning more about that. 

No crawl space here--my downstairs is slab on grade at the front (south side of house) and dug into the hillside on the back.   I have infloor radiant heat tubes in there, so the floor doesn't get touched.  

I really liked having no flame sources in the house when I first moved in--boiler in the garage.  I had to deal with my reluctance to change that when I had the wood stove installed.  (Now we love having a fire in the house! <g>) 

I know that the monitor is advertised as having no ignition source in the living space (thus good garage installs).  I don't know about the Toyo--will try to take a long lunch break today and go learn more about them. 

I have to say I was pretty concerned about the boiler situation a few days ago, now it's turned into more of an adventure.  I walk into each room and start thinking, "Now how could I heat this one?"   I've come up with a better location for the monitor--exterior wall of the sunroom, situated so that it can blow warm air through the kitchen and up the stairs.  It might even improve the already-decent circulation of wood stove heat.  That would be an added benefit.


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## Ehouse (Oct 12, 2011)

snow,

Remember that it is expensive to move heat.  You'll always lose some on the way to where you want it to go.  Blowers and circulators  cost money to buy, install and maintain, then you need a heat interface.  Radiators, ductwork, plenums, and the necessary plumbing etc. are hugely expensive these days.   Much cheaper to move fuel and combust it where you need the heat.  Unless you can set up a gravity feed for oil you'll need a filter and some kind of pump.  With propane the gas pressure from the tank moves the fuel for you and it is very inexpensive and easy to set up a system.  Hence my vote for a nice LP DV faux woodstove (or two, put 'em where you need 'em).  

As to the pipes on the outside wall, is it possible to slap about 6" of rigid foam on the wall outside the house or build a box with an electric heat element?

Ehouse


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## Ehouse (Oct 12, 2011)

Propane may need a tank blanket for extreme cold.  I think you have that info from a reply to a previous post.  

Ehouse


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## snowleopard (Oct 12, 2011)

Monitor stoves and Toyo stoves have a fan built in as part of their design.    If I situate one of these so that the air is blowing into the kitchen, it will address my greatest concern about heat in the house.  

I am on a hillside, so setting up a tank shouldn't be a huge problem, but I would still use a filter.  

I have never needed a blanket for propane at my house, or had to intervene to thaw it out here.  We're up in the hills a bit, and are usually 10-to-20F warmer than other spots in the area.  I have a propane system set up for my stove, but would need a bigger tank or another tank (the 100 lb tank I have now serves the kitchen range and cooktop, and lasts me about a year.  It's really nice not to have to change it out midwinter).  BUT WAIT!  even if I went with the oil burner in the sunroom, I could maybe put a little heater at the base of the island that could run off propane (since that's where the cooktop is, the island is already plumbed with propane).    HA!   the floor right between the sink and the island is the coldest spot in the house.  If I had a little heater in the kickspace, it could warm up the floor there and keep the plumbing in that area cozy.    :cheese:     SMART!  

Can't insulate the outer wall for the plumbing there, as it is earth sheltered with a deck built above it.

ETA: http://www.adn.com/2010/11/13/1553407/propane-heater-explodes-injuring.html
ETAA: http://www.newsminer.com/view/full_...ed-in-North-Pole-propane-blast-is-identified?
and: http://www.newsminer.com/view/full_story/10349878/article-Woman-dies-in-house-fire-near-Willow-?
this is getting a little spooky . . .


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## Ehouse (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm thinking that you can't get propane delivered, so you change out your own tank(s), but can get fuel oil delivered.  If that's the case, check out the Toyo on demand water heater.  You already have infloor tubing, so why not use it?  You could have a zone for the floor, a zone for a kickspace heater and or some rads, and keep your DWH as an indirect with electric backup on it's own zone.  I think Monitor makes an on demand also.   A small gas wall hung such as a Baxi luna or Takagi would be more efficient.

Google "Oil Heaters in Alaska" and read BudinAk's post.

A gas heater in the Island would have to be ventless eh?

Set some hay bales under the deck covered with a tarp.  If you can't insulate vertically, horizonal will help.


Ehouse


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## snowleopard (Oct 13, 2011)

I think I can get propane delivered if I have a big enough tank and the right kind of valve--and I don't on either count. 

Fuel oil delivery, yes. 

I've been looking at the Toyo Miser OM180.  If I have the floor heated, I won't need a kickspace heater--floor is plenty warm when the fluid is circulating and heated.  

Can't get any new monitors anymore, only used.  

Read that post.  THe one below it that refers to the brownouts describes the basis of my boiler's self-destruction.   Brownouts in an ice storm fried my controls, including the turn-off switch.                                    

Good point about the gas heater in the island (that stumped me a bit.. I thought, "Kodiak?  Which Island?"   Long day . . . 

Can't fit a hay bale under there.  It's earth-sheltered, so I can't figure out why it's so cold there, unless the people who drained down the glycol in my system left it uncapped somewhere, and I've got cold air circulating under my floor.  That would explain why it's so chilly--it got markedly colder after they took the fluid out, even though the heat had been out of there previously.   Dectective work when I get home tonight.  That would help a lot if that's the case.


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## Ehouse (Oct 13, 2011)

Heat goes to cold.  If the loop was left open on both ends you may have a reverse radiator operating to suck your hard won heat into the great outdoors.  Because you live in such a cold climate, there is a large temp diff that would really drive that air flow once it got started, Nome sane?

Ehouse


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## snowleopard (Oct 13, 2011)

Hey again.  Yes, I know what you're saying.  Had to figure that one out (my first thought was, there's sane, and then there's Nome sane--you'd kinda have to have lived there for that to compute . . . )    Got home tonight, made a fire, fed the dog, fed the cat, fed the boy, talked about his homework assignment, and called it a night--never even made it out to the garage to check those ends, but I was thinking about them as I was logging on here.   I'd just about bet the ranch that they're hanging open somewhere and that a little incense smoke will out the truth . After all, it was designed to circulate.  The Great Current takes about 1600 years to complete a circuit, and it is also driven by temperature differential--but it gets the job done.  (Double-dog dumb of me not to have thought of those being open before.  What can I say?)   It doesn't take much temp differential to drive a circulatory pattern--might not be moving real fast, but it wouldn't have to in order to suck the heat out of the house.   And it won't take much to stop it if it is. 

Called a couple of places in town, and found one place that will send someone out to my house for a complementary heating consultation.  Coming out Saturday morning.  I'm pretty excited about that--I'm a little obsessive about trying to figure out how this house heats, and how the air circulates.  I'll be very interested in hearing what he has to say. 

Went to the stove store and the guy that I talked to suggested I keep my eyes peeled for a used Toyo unit in good condition with good service records.  I'm impressed.


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## Ehouse (Oct 13, 2011)

Morning Snow,

Now we're getting somewhere.  Even if your slab is not thermosyphoning it is still acting as a radiator in reverse, albeit slower.  As long as it is colder than the living space it will draw heat and release it outside.  These radiant floor systems are a pain if not used as designed, not used at all or poorly installed.  They turn a house into an organism and must be accommodated.  You couldn't stop eating and rely on photosynthesis!  I say you must heat the slab, isolate it (think wrestling mat) or fight it and lose.  Let's assume that the slab was installed with sufficient perimeter and under slab insulation, and that the infloor tubing was not damaged in the meltdown (think pressure test).  Check your manifold for leakage and damage.  If you're lucky, all the damage is between the boiler and the manifold.  How many circulators (zones)?  I'm guessing the downstairs is a single zone.  Because of the large surface area of the slab, you don't need boiler temps to keep it warm.  Baseboards need higher temps because of less radiating surface.   Many will pooh pooh the idea, but my friend the heating contractor successfully heats his garage workshop (1,2000 sq. ') with an oil fired water heater.  Gas would work as well, is more efficient,  and most units will work w/o electric.  Talk to your local gas supplier(s).  Many carry heating equipment and have promotions for new customers.  Suburban Propane once gave me free a fantastic DV (not power vent) LP water heater that is still working 20 years later, or they may be willing to finance it for you. 

So;  shut off all zones but the slab.  Slap in a water heater or small on demand wall hung in place of the boiler, fuel of your choice.  Look for a used DV LP stove/fireplace or toyo or whatever space heater.  I think you're better off heating the slab as a first step.

Run this by your consultant and keep an open mind but remember he is going to try to sell you something.

Sorry about the lame joke.  Next time I'll try to be Whittier. 

Ehouse


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## snowleopard (Oct 13, 2011)

Ehouse said:
			
		

> Sorry about the lame joke.  Next time I'll try to be Whittier.
> 
> Ehouse


 :lol: 

As to the rest, yeah, yeah, and more yeahs.  On the fly here, but this had crossed my mind precisely--isolate floor and just heat downstairs.  Get rid of the huge tempering tank, and don't worry about the baseboard upstairs right now.  I have two zones, up and down, but no mixing valve, so everything was running at 160.   I know someone who can run a pressure test for me, and could probably even set up a system like what we'd discussed.  Someone also mentioned to me that Toyo has a water heater that a lot of people are using instead of boiler.  Maybe even could get hot water out of this changeover as well.  

Options are nice.  

Re: Consultant that is coming out: I asked the lady I talked to if they carried Toyos, and she said, no, but he could advise me on where to find them if that was what I wanted.  She suggested I think about a pellet stove, but it seemed too close to a wood stove to me.  I asked her if she knew anyone who ran both, and she said she did, starting with three of their employees.  Hmm again.  

Thanks.  Appreciate the help, and Juneau, this might just work!


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## snowleopard (Oct 13, 2011)

Checked the tubing in the garage.  Looks like two of the tubes are taped over, and two still run into the old boiler.  So it's just cold working its way into the slab, I guess. 

On the upside, I googled "using a water heater . . . " and it autofilled "to heat house" and "for radiant heat".  Ton of info about this.  I might just be riding a cutting edge here.   My propane connection and my boiler tubing comes into the house in the same spot (pantry in NE corner).  I even have a place where I could install a unit and vent it without difficulty.  My existing glycol lines might even be utilized to carry oil over from the garage tanks to the house, if I go the oil route, as they are already in situ.  I'd just need to convert them to a smaller oil line at both ends.  Wowser--that would make things super easy.  I'd have to pressure test those lines first, and make sure they are emptied.  But yeah.  And I have an unused root cellar off the pantry that could be used to place the heater.  It would certainly be the safest installation place if I ever had problems with it--earth sheltered on three sides, concrete block on the fourth. 

So many options here.


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## Ehouse (Oct 14, 2011)

Gas will cost less if you use it for heating as well as cooking and hot water.  Most suppliers adjust price according to usage.  You shouldn't need a mixing valve, just a separate thermostat for each zone, unless you set up for constant flow, but now I'm getting in over my head so have your "someone" advise you as to the best setup.  Slab temps should be in the 80's low 90's in a well insulated house, well within range of a water heater but for baseboard or fan coils or rads you'll need higher temps.  Seems to me moving things into the house would be a good move for several reasons.  Better call the tubing co. to see if those lines are compatible with oil, if not maybe you could shoot a string and pull new ones through if the ID is large enough.  A DWH is probably the cheapest route but will only heat the slab, and you'll need a heat exchanger to use it for potable hot water as well.  Be careful where you put things, propane is heavier than air and if you have a leak it could fill a root cellar and explode with a spark or suffocate you on the way down to check it.  Fine Homebuilding had an excellent article on using a second water heater (electric)  as a buffer tank when heating this way.  Can't remember their reasoning but sounded good to me.  You already have one so search their archives and find the article.   Sounds like you're closing in.  Hope you can hit a Homer on this!  By the way, quit with the jokes already.  I'm Sitka you stealing my material.

Ehouse


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## snowleopard (Oct 14, 2011)

Ehouse said:
			
		

> Gas will cost less if you use it for heating as well as cooking and hot water.  Most suppliers adjust price according to usage. You shouldn't need a mixing valve, just a separate thermostat for each zone, unless you set up for constant flow, but now I'm getting in over my head so have your "someone" advise you as to the best setup.
> Mine too.  I know that a mixing valve would have been a neccesity with a new boiler.
> Slab temps should be in the 80's low 90's in a well insulated house, well within range of a water heater but for baseboard or fan coils or rads you'll need higher temps.
> If I could just get a warm slab with this I'd be pretty happy at this point.
> ...



ETA Why I think I need another heat source: 

conversation this evening w/DS: 
Me: My priority now is getting another heat source in so that you are not dependent upon the woodstove to heat the house when I have to travel next month. 
Him: Well, what are we using now? 
Me: the wood stove.
Him: But it's freezing out!  
Me: but not in here.  
Him: Have we been using the wood stove to heat the house all this time? 
Me: Since January. 
Him: Oh.  
Me:


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## Ehouse (Oct 14, 2011)

Snow,

Check out Takagi, and especially the T=KJr.  These units were highly recommended to me by an expert in efficient home design.  It has a temp range that will do your whole system and I think they can be linked in series, so you could start with one and add on if needed.  You could also use your existing DWH as an indirect and have electric backup.  House needs .com has a schematic for heating application.  I'm seeing the price for a new unit From $500.00 to $900.00.  Ask around.  I'll bet people are using them up thataway.  

Start with the slab then try to Wrangell a good used DV Heater.  With a little determination Anchorage, You'll have a good economical solution.  Don't ignore the financing option.  You might find some Fairbanks to do business with, although I'd rather be thrown into a Denali(Y)nx than deal with most of 'em.  

You Cordova't least not used up all the easy names.  If you can squeeze in Gustavus and Matenuska, I'll bow to you as master.  

Your son sounds perfect for my niece.  I'll have to Talkeetna about him!

Ehouse


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## snowleopard (Oct 14, 2011)

Anchorage?  Anchorage?  Game over.  You're Dome Andersite has none such as you. 

I'm checking out the Takagi lineup.  I haven't heard of them, but I've not been looking up until now.  I'm taking the day off of work to try to get some answers, and I'm pretty sure I'll be Akutan' and Igloo(n') and a-solderin' and a-tinkerin' and Tyeeing things together right up until I have to leave on my trip.  I try to look on the Sunnyside, be Gustavus thing I can do right now is succumb to despair and listen to pessimists Angoons like that.  What I have here might be a Shaktooliks of that, but if the voice of discouragement whispers in my ear I have to Teller that sHoonah or later, if I continue to seek wise Council, the high waters of Deese Creek I'm wading through will drop again, and daMatanuska Hope-lessness will not settle around this neck!  I just have to keep my Bering Strait and Bluff a bit and Hope that Darby a Resolution, Baycause there just must be one. 

Can't.stop.myself.


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## Ehouse (Oct 15, 2011)

I yield, and offer up my Seward.

Ehouse


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## snowleopard (Oct 15, 2011)

Yield it not.  The Quinagok Anderson Charlieskin be here soon Denali-ve us Wasilla be knighted: Surrey-house.  At least, I think she'd do it.  Alaska.

ETA: The Altrol man came over yesterday, and spent at least an hour and a half here.  He listened (!) to what I had to say, and we explored the remains of the existing heating system pretty thoroughly, and looked over the water system.  Determined that instead of the water lines for the kitchen following the outside wall, they were in fact coming through the ceiling joists and were in the inner of the double wall construction.  He intuited that the rest of the system was done well (set up to be drained in the event of a winter vacation, all other plumbing on interior walls) and it was unlikely that the builder took a different tack and put the plumbing at risk.  So even though my kitchen floor was getting cold, my pipes were not as much at risk as I feared.  

We looked over all the options for an inside placement for the water heater (all of which were on the north wall, and thus below grade).  He finally asked, "What is it that you think you'd gain by going with an inside placement?" and I told him my thinking on that. (Greater efficiency, no need to feed the utilidor with expensive glycol).   Walked out to the garage, looked at the setup out there, and he recommended keeping it out there.  Also said that the folks he saw going over to a water heater system were usually replacing them in five or six years.  Thought that perhaps a few thousand could be shaved off the boiler estimate, but it was in the ballpark, and recommended going with a boiler over a water heater. 

Given that, he felt that the best option, considering the price of oil/propane and that I've already got an oil tank, and that there are servicing options for it in town, a Toyo direct vent oil heater would give me all the supplemental heat I need.   I discussed the pros and cons of a used unit, and he leaned towards new unless I could get one that had been serviced annually, and had the records to show it.   He said that these had about a six or seven year life expectancy (especially since people tended not to get them serviced regularly) and buying used just shortens that.  The wood stove takes me most of the way there, and the Toyo can fill in the edges.   He looked over the proposed placement spot, and thought that would work fine.  He said, "You won't be hurting the house by waiting to replace the boiler."  Floor gets too cold in the kitchen, I can put down a rug.  

Six or seven years will see my daughter out of college and working, and my son through h.s. and into or even out of college--a good time then to figure out my next step, and to have the financial wherewithal to do that. 

And peace is restored to the kingdom.  I have a plan.  Unless a financial windfall drops out of the sky in the near future (high pressure system is holding, clear skies as far as I can see, forecast for windfalls: highly unlikely), a Toyo will do the job for me for about $2500, around 10K less than I would otherwise have to come up with.  And should the opportunity for a boiler come along, and should I feel the need to install one, I can still have the Toyo available as a `backup backup'.  Feeling.much.better.

A profound thank you to my h.c compadres for walking through this with me, sharing your ideas, offering support.  It was hard to panic and laugh at puns at the same time, Ehouse, so thank you especially for that.  Now that my son understands that the heat for the house is coming out of the big box in the middle of the room, he has stated that he would be willing to keep the house warm with fires while I'm gone.  If I get the Toyo in before my trip, I will point out to him that this is also a heat source.


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## Ehouse (Oct 15, 2011)

Sounds like a plan.  My only trepidation would be that the 6 to 7 year life span for $2,500  doesn't sound any better than 5 to 6 for a DWH or a Takagi for considerably less.  It will be nice to have it right in the living space though.  I agree that for that type of unit, new is the way to go.  You can address the slab later.

I'm glad that Chugach your system figured out.  Tomorrow, after I have my breakfast of Emmonaks, I'll Barrow my neighbor's flashlight and go down to the basement to loo Katmai setup.  If I'm to be knighted, I'll need a new moniker.  How does Prince William Sound?  Keni take a Minto say You sound like Salcha fantas Tikchik, I've Kotzebue-hoos to think this is finally at an end, or maybe I'm just cat Chena cold.  Yakutat least keep us informed as to how it turns out.  

Ehouse


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