# My darn Jotul Firelight won't stay on!



## flipper

I bought this Jotul 600 Firelight used about four years ago and it's never run right.  I'd like to see if I can't get it going the way it's supposed to.  The pilot stays lit and when I push the on/off button to on, the fire pops up okay.  But after about half an hour or so, it just dies.  What could the issue be?  Some pix are attached.

Also: The log setup doesn't match anything in the manual for the stove, and it's too complicated for me to figure out without help.  Can I just stack em like I have em or should I call some 4rth grader over to puzzle them all together in about 10 seconds flat?

thanks!


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## summit

if you have a multimeter, check the thermopile reading... and how does the pilot flame look? doe it float off the tc/tp assembly at all?


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## DAKSY

Take the logs out & see if she runs ok. 
If she does, you know where the problem lies.
Those logs are designed to be installed one way ONLY.
If it doesn't run right, follow Summit's advice... 
Look for 500- 550 on the pilot & 200 - 250 on the burner,
with the multimeter probes on the TP & TP-TH terminals...


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## flipper

Thanks, guys.  I've been called away suddenly but will for sure check things out upon my return home Monday.  Will report back.

btw/ it's safe to fire up the stove with no logs ... right?


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## DAKSY

flipper said:
			
		

> Thanks, guys.  I've been called away suddenly but will for sure check things out upon my return home Monday.  Will report back.
> 
> btw/ it's safe to fire up the stove with no logs ... right?




*Yep. Just make sure you put the glass back on if you're gonna burn for more than a few minutes...*


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## flipper

okay, i tried it w/ the logs out and the flames still die after a while.  i then tried it w/ the logs still out and the glass lifted up an inch or still.  flame still dies.

now i want to try testing with the multimeter.  while i've got one, i don't know how to use it.  can someone explain the settings i should use on the meter and where i should put the probes?

thanks


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## DAKSY

flipper said:
			
		

> okay, i tried it w/ the logs out and the flames still die after a while.  i then tried it w/ the logs still out and the glass lifted up an inch or still.  flame still dies.
> 
> now i want to try testing with the multimeter.  while i've got one, i don't know how to use it.  can someone explain the settings i should use on the meter and where i should put the probes?
> 
> thanks



Set the meter to Millivolts. 
With the burner off:
Put one probe on the terminal block at the TP connection.
Put the other probe on the terminal block at the TH-TP (or TP-TH) connection.
Read the number & tell us what it is - should be 500 - 550 & steady
Turn the burner on:
Take a reading across the same terminals & tell us what it is - should be 200 - 220 & steady...(YMMV)
My bet is that you will have a gradually dropping Mv reading on 
the burner until it gets down to 135 or so & then it'll shut everything down.
If so, ya gotta replace the thermopile...
Good Luck!


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## Wood Heat Stoves

flipper said:
			
		

> okay, i tried it w/ the logs out and the flames still die after a while.  i then tried it w/ the logs still out and the glass lifted up an inch or still.  flame still dies.
> 
> now i want to try testing with the multimeter.  while i've got one, i don't know how to use it.  can someone explain the settings i should use on the meter and where i should put the probes?
> 
> thanks



i can email you a gas service tech book, showing how and why to take the tests
pm me


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## Install fire 1

It could also be a high resistance on the switch circuit, which steals too many mv off of the main burner magnet causing it to close or go "out".


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## pyrotom

Summit raised a good question about the pilot flame staying in contact with the thermocouple. If the pilot holds while the stove is sitting idle, there's a good possibility that the draft of the stove is pulling the pilot flame away from the thermocouple when you fire up the main burner. If you can see the flame flickering or pulling away from the thermocouple while the stove is burning, that's a pretty likely cause.

Does it have the SIT pilot assembly that looks like a little disc with flame coming out on three sides? If so, you may be able to remove the cap (it snaps on from the top) and blow out the pilot orifice to get a stronger flame. If it hasn't been professionally serviced since you purchased the stove, the pilot hood may be rusted on there tight, so don't destroy the hood trying to get it off if it doesn't come off pretty easily! 

If you can only cause the problem when the main burner is on, a millivolt reading on the thermocouple is only going to give you a clue, not confirm the diagnosis. You would need to install a special thermocouple tester in-line with the thermocouple so you could read the voltage changes while the stove is in operation. 

Unfortunately, having the logs out of the stove might make the problem worse with nothing in the way of the incoming air.

I concur with the other comments about getting the logs back in the right place.

If the stove really has NEVER run right, I wonder if you don't have some venting issue, although you seemed to indicate you tried it with the glass cracked and still had the same problem.


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## flipper

okay, some new stuff here to think about, which i will.  meanwhile, i did as bob suggested and here's my report:

1/ with just the pilot on, the reading was 381 millivolts -- not 500 to 550 as hoped for.

2/ with the main burner on, first reading was 202.  five minutes later it was 190.  then i got a phone call and when i came back ten minutes later the main burner was out.

so that's where it stands.  anything new to conclude?

thanks again!


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## pyrotom

I missed that just the burner is going out, not the pilot. My bad.

The thermoPILE sounds weak, so the same concerns apply. Either the flame is pulling off, cooling the tip, or the base is overheating, making the difference in temp from the tip to base smaller, which will also drop millivolts.

How does the pilot flame look while the unit is running?


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## DAKSY

I'd say that you need to replace the thermopile...
Probably about $50. Need a 7/16 wrench & Philips screwdriver...
& a small goob of RTV to seal the hole where the wiring passes thru the stove bottom...


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## webbie

Also, make sure the venting system conforms to the manual. 
Some stoves have restrictors (other folks here can say if this one does).
If the venting is wrong, then the chimney can suck too strong and the fire lifts and goes out (I think)......

Just make sure the venting falls within the chart in the installation manual....and look to see if a restrictor is mentioned for particular pipe runs.


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## pyrotom

. . . true about the restrictors being set properly to prevent pilot flame lifting & fluttering . . . but if only the burner is dropping out, the venting may not be the major issue, since the thermocouple is usually more sensitive. 

DAKSY is right. The thermopile is a cheap fix.


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## flipper

I'll do some more noodling around to see what I can see.

Where does one buy a thermopile?  Is the safest best to buy one from a Jotul dealer?


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## DAKSY

flipper said:
			
		

> I'll do some more noodling around to see what I can see.
> 
> Where does one buy a thermopile?  Is the safest best to buy one from a Jotul dealer?



If you get one from a Jotul parts dealer, you know it'll work. 
If there's not one near you, some True Value Hardware Stores carry 
a "Universal" Millivolt Generator for about $50 that'll probably work.
You'll have some extra parts left over with the True Value one, but don't worry about them.
Take the old one out & bring it with you. The threads on the retainer HAVE to match
or you're SOL...


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## flipper

okay here are some pictures and a link to two movies.  maybe these will help the diagnoses.  everything is pretty self explanation.  there are some shots of the thermopile without the main burner on and some with it on.  hope they're clear enuf.  what do you think?  btw/ this time i was there when the burner shut off; it last about 15 minutes; i didn't see any flame lift off or anything, it just went off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa1hHNYy6is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJuyliRP_QY


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## pyrotom

Excellent photos!

Pilot flame looks a little small to me, but pretty normal. Have you tried popping the top off of the pilot head & blowing out the pilot orifice? A little WD40 helps to loosen it up if it's rusted. You can also pull off the retainer clip to help get it free . . . it is a small wire about the diameter of a paper clip around the neck of the pilot.  Make sure to put the clip back when you're through.

This still seems like more of a thermopile issue with the voltage dropping so much.

Another thing that can cause the thermopile to drop voltage is a a loose retainer nut, which will keep the pilot bracket from acting as a heat sink. After the pilot has been off for a while, check to see if the nut is tight underneath. It doesn't have to be super tight, but a little more than handtightened to get good thermal conductivity.


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## DAKSY

Replace the thermopile & after you do that we'll 
tell ya how to TRY to increase the millivolt readings...


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## flipper

Okay, will do.  Thanks.  And, I will be back ...


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## RNLA

I just saw this thread and thought I would check it out I do not have a gas stove but a wood unit. I usually do not come to this section of the forum. So what the heck is my point? I saw the title and thought "this guy needs a new thermocouple" or thermopile as your calling it. I have a little experience with furnaces and it is the same principal, monitoring the temp of the fire. Sorry to come in here and spout off but I just had to see the conclusions of the pros. :shut:


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## flipper

Thanks for weighing in!

Meanwhile, how the deuce do you get the thermopile out?  it's got that plate in front of it and there's vvvery little operating room to the side.  is there an easy way to get to it or should i just unbolt and remove the heating element?


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## Wood Heat Stoves

nope, no easy way

remove the burner tube as needed


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## flipper

man o man.  i removed the burner tube and i *still* can't get at the thermopile nut.  crap.  well, i'll go back to it later, when my temper has gotten a little longer.


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## DAKSY

There should be a couple of screws holding the pilot bracket to the bottom of the stove.
Use a 1/4' drive - magnetic is best - to remove the screws.
Gently lift the entire pilot bracket assembly upwards far enough to access the retainer nut for the t-pile.
You may have some difficulty removing the t-pile from the plate it sits in, because they sometimes distort.
I can't emphasize enough that you have to be gentle. The pilot tube is thin-walled & can fracture easily.
If you must, loosen the pilot tube from the underside, as well as the thermocouple.
Disconnect the the electrical connections of the t-pile at the valve terminal block.
Once you get the t-pile out of the bracket, pull the wires up through the hole in the bottom of the stove.
Install the t-pile & feed the wires back down thru the hole & gently reposition the bracket assembly in position,
reconnecting the pilot tube & the t-couple if you removed them.
Apply a goob of RTV to the hole where you fed the wiring thru.
Reattach the screws - this is where the magnetic tip is REALLY handy - retaining the bracket to the stove & 
reconnect the wires to the terminal block.
Light er up & see if she works.


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## Wood Heat Stoves

you may need to remove the pilot assy from the bracket, and lift it up to access the tpile

be careful of the pilot tube, and tcouple

oops, Daksy beat me to it again


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## flipper

You may have some difficulty removing the t-pile from the plate it sits in, because they sometimes distort --

man, you're not kidding!

anyway, i cut down a 7/16" wrench and finally got the retaining nut off.  now i'm having a hard time removing the t-pile.  will it go out either way -- i.e., can i bop a rubber mallet on it from above and try to get it to drop down and out the bottom?

also, can i cut snip the t-pile wires to get em out of the way or am i going to be using that part of the assembly again?


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## summit

It's gotta drop down... you can cut the wire if u got to, as the new one has the wires on it.


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## flipper

okay.  from what bob was saying (Once you get the t-pile out of the bracket, pull the wires up through the hole in the bottom of the stove), it sounded like everything had to go up.  i'll give bopping it down a try, see what havoc that causes.  thanks.


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## summit

I think I see part of the issue, maybe: for a dv unit, there is a conspicuos lack of any kind of seal around the pilot/tc/tp lines in the bottom plate... this will force a lot of air up towards the pilot light, pushing flame off the tc/tp assembly, causing a loss in millivolts and eventual shutdown on higher draft conditions. Is there and seal around those lines, or is it just open air to the underside of the stove? shine a light up thru and see.


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## flipper

good catch, summit.  it's open air, no seal.  oddly enough, when i was fussing around down there, i found some small pieces of lava-looking rock forced into the assembly, not blocking the air totally but at least a little bit.  i wonder if this could all add up to my problem -- though i wonder if a lack of a seal is how jotul intended it, since i don't see any signs of prior sealage.

p.s., if i decide to seal up the holes before doing anything else, how can i test the thermopile wires to make sure i didn't mess em up with all my pulling and tugging.  would checking the millivolts as before do the tricks and do i need to light the pilot light to do that?


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## summit

just seal the holes with some red hi temp silicone, wait about an hour, and fire the pilot up. Use a multimeter set to 2000mv to the 2 thermopile leads. a healthy tp should read well over 350 (ideally 500 or so) mv under no load (switch off), and *at least *180 under load (switch on). then light off the burner, and continue to check the mv reading every minute or so. If the tp is failing, then the # will drop untill it hits @130 or so, then the burner will kick off. you need to heat the tp via the pilot to check these readings, as the tp only creates electricity when heated.


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## DAKSY

flipper said:
			
		

> good catch, summit.  it's open air, no seal.  oddly enough, when i was fussing around down there, i found some small pieces of lava-looking rock forced into the assembly, not blocking the air totally but at least a little bit.  i wonder if this could all add up to my problem -- though i wonder if a lack of a seal is how jotul intended it, since i don't see any signs of prior sealage.
> 
> *A lot of the holes in these older units were sealed with gasket cement. It could've hardened & some of may have fallen out...It'd look a LOT like the Jotul lava rocks...  *
> 
> p.s., if i decide to seal up the holes before doing anything else, how can i test the thermopile wires to make sure i didn't mess em up with all my pulling and tugging.  would checking the millivolts as before do the tricks and do i need to light the pilot light to do that?
> 
> *Pulling the wires back down shouldn't require a great effort, plus, they're pretty durable...You should be fine with goobing the RTV in the gap around them & firing it right up... Make sure you run it with the glass ON when you take the Mv readings, & make sure the top 3/8" of the t-pile is engulfed by the pilot flame*


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## flipper

if it looked a lot like the lava rock, then that's indeed what it was.  interesting.  meanwhile, i've gooped on some of the red crap, making an unholy mess of it as i went.  basically, the entire pilot area is now swathed in red.  now i know why some jobs are best left to the professionals!  nonetheless, i've come this far and i'm going to stay the course.  will report back in the a.m., after i try to do some more gooping in the (many) blind spots ...


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## flipper

sheesh, i think i must have messed up the t-pile wires somehow.  so, i finished gooping and the pilot light came on fine and strong and when i tested it a few minutes later i got a nice reading of over 500 millivolts.  but then everything went berzerk and  the reading dropped down into the low teens.  huh, go figure.  anyway, i stoked up the main burner and then i tested it.   looked good at over 200 millivolts but then it went haywire too and dropped down to like 30 with the flame going out.

then i figured out what was going.  as long as i held the multimeter probes to the wires, it drained all the millivolts out of the t-pile and the fire died; talk em off and the fire popped up again.

so ... what have i done now and how can i fix it?

thanks and sorry for being such an incredible bumbling pain in the arse!


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## summit

the multimeter shouldn't do that, unless you are grounding out the wire somehow. I don't think you've damaged anything, but I'd give the wires a good once over, and make sure there are no raw spots grounding out on the stove. 500 mv is a good #, however, 200 for load is fine, so it sounds like the tp is healthy!


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## flipper

damn.  i thought i had it.

i fiddled w/ the wire and got rid of the jitter problem (i do think, however, that i nicked one of the wires somewhere and that's why it was grounding out; arg.)

turned on pilot, got reading of 480 mv.  i waited a few minutes and it went down to 460.  at that point, i turned on the main burner.  initial reading was 250 - 260, holding steady.  i had to leave for 15 minutes and when i came back, it was reading 230.  sweet! then it dropped to 215.  then, in the space of less than a minute, it rocketed up to 350 and the burner went out and it continued up to around 370, where it hung until i shut it down.,

now what?


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## summit

at 350 , shouldn't of gone out. sudden shot upwards is wierd: either a bad connection / groudout.. or a bad valve. did pilot shut out, too, or just the burner?


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## flipper

just the burner shut down; pilot remained on.  given the previous jitters, i would suspect bad connection / ground out probably due to me messing up the t-pile wires.  would that make the most sense?  guess i might be buying a new one of them after all!


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## summit

keep us posted!


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## flipper

will do.

i'm back to trying to get the thermopile out.  i've tried banging it down from above -- no luck, it won't go through ... yet.  my next tactic is to switch from banging to pounding.  we'll see how that works!


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## DAKSY

If you can't drive it out, smash it.
Take a pair of big pliers & mangle it enuff to get it out of there, 
even if it comes out in pieces. It sure sounds like it's a POS
anyways, & for the $50 you'll spend on a new one, the piece 
of mind will be "priceless!"


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## flipper

good advice and i nearly went the smashing route but after about a 1/2 hr of wrangling, i managed to slide it out.  i can tell that putting the new one in is going to be hell too, but i'll cross that bridge when i get to it.

thanks for all the encouragement!

i only hope i haven't punctured any of the gas pipes...

well, we'll see!

more later ...


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## flipper

darn.

got the new t-pile installed okay, ticked the pilot into life, got a reading of 450 mv on the meter, fired up the burner, and still got in the 400s.  woo-hoo!  left for a half hour, came back, the flame was out, the pilot was still lit, and the meter was reading in the low 500s.  go figure.

tonight, i'm going to tend to my bruises and wounds.

but what about tomorrow ... what might i try tomorrow?


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## webbie

Others can probably answer better - but is there an overheat sensor on the Firelight? I remember Heat and Glow had one at the top of the front or somewhere like that, and that would sometimes shut the thing down.

Also, are we 100% sure that the venting is clear and that the venting meets manual requirements and that any restrictor (if any) is installed?


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## DAKSY

Tomorrow...I'd pull the burner tube (again) & remove the burner orifice.
You'll need a 1/2" or 13mm wrench or socket. 
There may be a spider web in there that may work it's way to the
orifice after the gas has been flowing for a while...
Take a peek down inside the gas line & run a Q-tip or a pipe cleaner down
in the tube & swirl it around to see if you can pull anything out...
If that's not it, Dave Gault will hafta chime in with the ohm readings to 
check to see if your gas valve has Sh*t the bed...


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## flipper

Admin: Don't know about the sensor for sure but I don't see it mentioned in the manual.  As to restrictoring, well, I don't know.  The manual has explicit restrictor instructions for vertical installations but nothing i can see for horizontal, which is how I have mine.  Here's a pdf link to the manual: http://www.jotul.com/FileArchive/Files/USA/Old products/Old gas products/GF600_Firelight.pdf/.  see pages 12 and 13.  am i not seeing something?

bob: i'll clear that tube and see what i can see.

thanks again all for your help and patience.


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## flipper

well, i dunno.

i went out and fired it up again and everything went swimmingly for 40 minutes, then the burner sputtered and died out, with the multimeter still reading in the mid-400s.

so then i started thinking about the restrictor plates and guess what?  the insides of my Firelight don't match what shows in the manual.  if you look at the third picture on my original post, you'll see the 5 or 6 tube thingy thing in the back.  i don't see anything like that in the literature.

for that matter, the lit shows an on/off/stat switch for the main burner.  all i've got is an on/off switch, w/ no third position.

and now that i think about it -- where did that 7-piece wood set come in and/or from?  the manual shows only a four-log set and a pin configuration that doesn't match what mine is.

i double checked the plate that's attached to the stove.  yup, says it right there, Jotul Firelight 600 DV.  i went and checked all the old and new manuals and found nothing with a many-tubed inside like what i've got, altho the old Firelight manual, the one I've been using, does have the same front left and doors.

thoughts?  suggestions?


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## Wood Heat Stoves

DAKSY said:
			
		

> Tomorrow...I'd pull the burner tube (again) & remove the burner orifice.
> You'll need a 1/2" or 13mm wrench or socket.
> There may be a spider web in there that may work it's way to the
> orifice after the gas has been flowing for a while...
> Take a peek down inside the gas line & run a Q-tip or a pipe cleaner down
> in the tube & swirl it around to see if you can pull anything out...
> If that's not it, Dave Gault will hafta chime in with the ohm readings to
> check to see if your gas valve has Sh*t the bed...



sit valve?
http://woodheatstoves.com/nova-sit-820-troubleshooting-guide-p-12157.html

robertshaw?
http://woodheatstoves.com/robertshaw-gas-valve-troubleshooting-and-testing-p-12487.html

less likey, honeywell-
http://woodheatstoves.com/images/honeywellvsc8420gasvalvemanual.pdf


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## flipper

it's a sit valve.  and i test various things out and it passed okay i guess.

i fired the stove up again last night and watched in great dismay as the flame died again with no great decline in millivolts, maybe even another rise.

at this point, i guess i'm going to gather my tools and pack it in and start saving $ to get a pro in.  anyone know anyone good in coastal rhode island?


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## summit

one last thing... have you checked the burner oriface?


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## flipper

ha!  got me!  forgot!

will do that today and report back ...


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## flipper

checked it.  pulled nothing out.  seems clean to me.


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## DAKSY

OK. One last thing to try. Jump the TH & TH-TP terminals with a wire.
Use one with alligator clips or Female spades, so you can leave it on...
If it runs fine & doesn't shut off, it's either the wiring TO the switch, or the switch itself...


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## summit

flipper said:
			
		

> checked it.  pulled nothing out.  seems clean to me.



the little brass one?


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## flipper

cleaned the little brass one -- the tip, right? -- and did the jumper thing.  no go.  this time i watched the whole thing.

once fired up, at 11:21 am, the multimeter read 313 mv.  by 11:34, the reading had declined to 260 mv.  two minutes later it had risen to 270.  And then in the span of 20 seconds, it rose from 270 mv to 440 mv and the burner went out.

any final thoughts before i go smash the thing to bits, ha ha, just kidding, i think ...


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## summit

maybe time for a new one....


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## DAKSY

Try it one more time with the logs out & the glass on...
I know you tried it without the logs in an earlier test,
but that was before you changed the t-pile...


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## flipper

okay, i've pretty much given up on this.  i gather the stove needs a professional at this point and a new sit valve.  i think i have two options going forward:

1/ call a pro.  the only service i can find -- and the one the only jotul dealer in the state said to call -- gets *horrible* reviews on the internet.  he charges $100 for the initial visit and first 1/2 hour, and $100 an hour after that.  is that normal?

2/ get a new heater.  in this application, i don't care about aesthetics or anything like that.  a plain box would be fine with me.  the area to heat is about 150 sq ft.  i'd be pleased as punch to throw out this jotul and go with the least expensive alternative.  i would like it vented though and could use the existing gas lines, etc.

if feasible, i'd favor option 2.  might anyone suggest a plain jane plain vanilla heater that'd work?  doesn't have to look like a fireplace, doesn't have to look like anything.  i was looking at the northern tool procom (http://tinyurl.com/5u4ojus) but it's vent free.  cost is like $115.  don't see a vented model, but that's what i want.  hmmm.

thanks!


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## DAKSY

One last thing before you start calling in a pro. 
Do you have a blower on this unit?
Is it plugged in to an outlet?


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## flipper

No blower, nothing plugged into an outlet.

my problem w/ calling in a pro is that the authorized servicer is supposed to stink; plus, i'm worried about throwing good money after bad.

the vent free model i referred to above is $115 delivered, 10k btu.  i just found an 8k btu direct vent model from housewarmer that's ... $350.  why so much more for direct vent?  http://tinyurl.com/6ktdbo5

thanks again.


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## DAKSY

No blower. Dang . That blows another theory out the window. 
PM me with the serial number & model # from the unit.
Also give me your phone # & I will contact our Jotul rep 
& see if he can get back to you.
Two more questions: is your unit an LP or NG unit 
& if it's LP, who did the conversion?


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## flipper

hey, bob: wow, thank you very much.  i will PM you my phone number.

Model No: Firelight DV, LPG

Serial No: L 80760

Type of Gas: Propane

I bought the unit used.  From the above, I gather it's been propane all along.  

thanks again!!


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## DAKSY

All Jotul gas stoves come from the factory as NG burning units, 
but included with each is the NG-to-LP conversion kit.
If the conversion was done by a pro, there will be an LP sticker on
the gas valve & a record of fuel conversion on the rating plate.


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## DAKSY

Ok. Here's what I got from the Jotul Rep.
That particular model has Majestic guts inside a Jotu shell.
It hasn't been made for 12+ years.
I explained what we've talked you thru & his diagnosis is the valve,
but that's over the phone & an on-site tech may see something else...
Your best bet for Rhode Island Jotul Service is:

The Stovepipe Fireplace Shop, Inc
654 Warwick Avenue
Warwick, RI 2888
Phone: (401)941-9333

Give them a call & see what they charge. 
There are other Jotul dealers out there, but 
my rep says these guys are the real deal.
HTH...


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## flipper

Thanks, Bob, I appreciate what you've done.  The Stovepipe Shop is, in fact, the dealer that recommended I contact this outside outfit that gets such terrible online reviews.  And charges $100 for the first 1/2 hr and $100 an hour after that, which I still don't know if it's a reasonable rate or not.  I find it a little odd that they don't do the work themselves and instead told me to call these other folks.  What do you think?


thanks again.


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## DAKSY

Well, we'd get $129 for the call & then $80 per after than so they're in line with our rates.
Tell the guys at the stovepipe shop that Jotul recommended them, maybe that'll give em a nudge...


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