# Heating water....



## James02 (Jan 31, 2013)

Since I have been on Hearth, I've read how people try to avoid using oil and such....My question is, how does everybody heat their water, for bathing at the very least??


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## bad69bird (Jan 31, 2013)

electric


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## James02 (Jan 31, 2013)

bad69bird said:


> electric


oooooooooohhhhhh.......


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## BobUrban (Jan 31, 2013)

I live off the grid so to speak and propane is the only option I have for back up.  This also fires my hot water heater, stove and dryer.  As my appliances die they will be replaced with electric but I find it less costly to burn the propane for these than replace them.  My stove will always be gas.  I go through 2-300 in propane per year, the majority of which is when I am out of town and the dog sitter is here.  I tell her to run the furnace where she wants because I don't want her to get cold and decide taking care of my dog is not fun and I really don't want her running the wood stove.  Prior to wood - propane cost me between 1500-and 2G anually.  As far as I am concerened I am winning my personal battle/challenge with the gas man!!  I figure I have roughly 3500 in my install(stove, chimney, hearth) so after two seasons burning I am at least even and going forward is just gravy.  Now if I had to add my labor into the cost estimate we are still playing catch up but at this point I find the labor to be fun for me so that is not included in the equasion.


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## bad69bird (Jan 31, 2013)

and up to this year I had an off peak meter so it was dirt cheap,  PECO took that away Jan 1st however


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## Stella (Jan 31, 2013)

James02 said:


> Since I have been on Hearth, I've read how people try to avoid using oil and such....My question is, how does everybody heat their water, for bathing at the very least??


Solar panel which even in winter if the sun is shining gives us hot water, otherwise electric top up if cloudy and no sun.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 31, 2013)

electric (I figure, cheaper than oil)


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## kborndale (Jan 31, 2013)

My water heater is natural gas with a pilot light so even if the power goes out I still have hot water.


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## James02 (Jan 31, 2013)

kborndale said:


> My water heater is natural gas with a pilot light so even if the power goes out I still have hot water.


Yea, after the "SUPERSTORM"....I had heat, but no hot water....Good thing I knew people who could take me in for a shower....


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## Ashful (Jan 31, 2013)

Oil for hot water.  In fact, we're still using some oil for heat, too, but averaging half of what we used last year.  Considering last winter was so much warmer than this winter, I'd guess we are actually down to about 35% of our prior oil usage, all things being equal.


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## NortheastAl (Jan 31, 2013)

Our water heater is oil fired, so we still have to use oil for that. When it gets too warm (50°+) to use the wood stove then we turn on the oil furnace till it cools off again, like it is now.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 31, 2013)

Propane for water and stove...was $600/mo without stove...now $600 a year


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## begreen (Jan 31, 2013)

Electrons.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 31, 2013)

begreen said:


> Electrons.


As Curley from the 3 Stooges would say....."a wise guy eh?!?!"


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## Corey (Jan 31, 2013)

Natural gas.  I've considered other schemes...solar (too many mature trees on the property - shade is a big plus to keeping AC costs low, though) ...heat exchanger off the AC hot side (would work, though AC use and hot water needs are typically inverse) ...separate heat pump to put heat in water / cool in house (again heat/cool needs are inverted, expensive buying/maintaining a separate heat pump)

Overall, with natural gas being so cheap, it costs ~$10/month winter and $5/month summer for hot water, so any system costing more than a couple hundred bucks is going to have a crazy long ROI.


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## WoodpileOCD (Jan 31, 2013)

kborndale said:


> My water heater is natural gas with a pilot light so even if the power goes out I still have hot water.


Ditto here. Costs me as much or more some months in the damn fees as it does for the gas I use.


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## ArsenalDon (Jan 31, 2013)

WoodpileOCD said:


> Costs me as much or more some months in the damn fees


They charge fees where you live for the Dam's that are there? Brutal!!.............ohhhh....wrong kind of dam fee....now I get it........


Sorry folks.....it is early here, I am tired and obviously punchy this AM.....bad puns run from my mouth like water from a faucet when I am punchy like this.


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## WoodpileOCD (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm sure there is a damn fee somewhere in one of my utility bills for a damn dam some place.


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## Reckless (Jan 31, 2013)

Oil. Previous owner had water set to Scolding hot I made some adjustments to that and hear the furnace ALOT less often now. Who really needs water so hot it burns your skin???


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## Highbeam (Jan 31, 2013)

In parts of the country where there is less dependence and use of fuel oil the water is almost never heated by the space heating systems. As such, wood heat has nothing to do with water heat. We use the typical tank water heater. In this home, it is fired by electrons which are actually cheaper fuel source than propane. No power, no heat. So we go out to the RV and fire up the gas water heater and take a shower out there if needed.


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## bag of hammers (Jan 31, 2013)

BobUrban said:


> I live off the grid so to speak and propane is the only option I have for back up


 
I think I'm in a similar situation here.  I have electric hot water right now only because the tank was an easy, fast, relatively inexpensive DIY install and it works well.  However the electricity costs are insane these days.  I already use propane for my no-freeze furnace and have the big tank out in the yard, and my propane bill will likely drop to almost $0 as the furnace becomes my "backup heat" only - once we're there 24/7.   I just didn't want to drop the $1K or so to purchase and install a propane water tank right now.  Longer term I need to figure out the cost of propane water tank + install + gas usage vs khw used + "electron delivery" costs.   Bob if you can run everything propane for under $300 / year, is it safe to assume the water heater should be only a fraction of that..?    Are you also planning on an electric water tank if the gas unit craps out?


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## topoftheriver (Jan 31, 2013)

James02 said:


> Since I have been on Hearth, I've read how people try to avoid using oil and such....My question is, how does everybody heat their water, for bathing at the very least??


Propane, natural gas, electric, a few pans on the stove.


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## ddahlgren (Jan 31, 2013)

I run hot water for no more than 1 hr a day with a switch on HW thermostat so it can not call for heat. It is oil but a cold start boiler with 5 gallons of water so no stand by losses. I can get a shower run the dish washer and clothes washer within an hour to hour and one half thank is more than hot enough to wash hands etc until the next day and saves 30% on water heating costs. Plus no base cost for equipment as electric and gas.


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## bag of hammers (Jan 31, 2013)

When we can (when time permits), I light the outdoor sauna, fill a couple 5-gallon pails with water from the lake, stick them up on the top bench, and just feed the fire all afternoon with gopher wood from around the property, while I putter around with outside projects, work, etc.  Not an alternative to inside hot water / shower, but an awesome way to unwind and wash up at the end of a long day!  The tiny old hunt stove I picked up long ago for @ $40 is still holding together, heats the air which then heats the water in the pails.  Couple hours and it is pretty warm.  This is how we all washed up on weekends before the bathroom was built, summer or winter (gotta love camp).  One day I'll get a real sauna stove with a tank on the side.


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## firebroad (Jan 31, 2013)

WoodpileOCD said:


> I'm sure there is a damn fee somewhere in one of my utility bills for a damn dam some place.


My new job is the the Maryland Public Service Commission.  You ought to see the fees we change THEM.  They gotta pass them on somehow...


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## DaveGunter (Jan 31, 2013)

Switched to Steibel Eltron air source heat pump (http://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/accelera.html) from oil two years ago. The water heater is about 4 feet from the woodstove in the basement.  My electric bill went up on average $5 per month after the water heater was installed and I have not burned oil in two years.


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## bmblank (Jan 31, 2013)

I heat my domestic water with wood. I've got a coil running through my heat storage tank.


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## simple.serf (Jan 31, 2013)

Dino Juice heats the water here. Working on getting it over to wood, though.


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## billb3 (Jan 31, 2013)

oil
have a two coil tank with the bottom coil planned for 2 solar panels


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## ChadD (Jan 31, 2013)

Oil with a tankless coil off my boiler for now but I am thinking about installing a indirect hot water heater so it doesn't cycle as often. My buddy can get a Crown megastor 40 with his discount at the plumbing supply shop and install it for $650


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## firefighterjake (Feb 1, 2013)

Propane . . . was getting it off my oil boiler for a long time, but I was constantly having issues with that system.

I sometimes wonder if I wouldn't do better by switching to  one of those propane on-demand heaters . . . I have always hated the sound of my boiler or heater kicking on to heat up water when there is no one using the hot water.


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## bag of hammers (Feb 1, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> I sometimes wonder if I wouldn't do better by switching to one of those propane on-demand heaters


 
Not sure this means anything, but the guy that installed my propane heater a few years ago actually steered me away from that (on demand) option, when I asked about going to propane hot water one day.  Something about the very cold water temps incoming where I am (pulling from Lake Superior), 240K BTU's when firing (sucking lots of gas while trying to bring that cold water up to temp), cost of heater, install, repair / maintenance issues (maybe it was a younger technology then?), especially since I'm out in the boonies (this is not something I could repair myself), etc etc. etc.   Apparently they had a few less than satisfied customers.  What I got from the conversations was is that it's a great concept, but to be careful about expectations, especially under less than optimal conditions.  I have no idea otherwise if they generally work well, but it was in interesting response from someone who could have otherwise tried to sell me $2000 worth of equipment and installation.


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## NickDL (Feb 1, 2013)

Our home is all electric, so our water heater is electric.


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## wingsfan (Feb 1, 2013)

Our water heater is natural gas,as is all of our appliances. Since we have been burning he wood stove our gas bill has been averaging half of what we used to use.
I figure the stove sould pay for itself in 2 1/2 years.


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## woodgeek (Feb 1, 2013)

My oil boiler with a tankless coil was costing me ~$1100/yr just for (crappy) DHW.  I figured electric would be ~$400/year, and give good ROI.  I actually went for a heat pump water heater (HPWH), which costs me ~$200/year instead, and had the boiler scrapped.


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## ddahlgren (Feb 1, 2013)

bag of hammers said:


> Not sure this means anything, but the guy that installed my propane heater a few years ago actually steered me away from that (on demand) option, when I asked about going to propane hot water one day. Something about the very cold water temps incoming where I am (pulling from Lake Superior), 240K BTU's when firing (sucking lots of gas while trying to bring that cold water up to temp), cost of heater, install, repair / maintenance issues (maybe it was a younger technology then?), especially since I'm out in the boonies (this is not something I could repair myself), etc etc. etc. Apparently they had a few less than satisfied customers. What I got from the conversations was is that it's a great concept, but to be careful about expectations, especially under less than optimal conditions. I have no idea otherwise if they generally work well, but it was in interesting response from someone who could have otherwise tried to sell me $2000 worth of equipment and installation.


 
If it was new techlology at the time then there are groing pains and in the boonies cutting edge is probably not the answer. I wonder if having the water go into a 30 gallon holding tank or small electric water heater set to 75 degrees the go from there to the on demand one. or possibly a solar panel. If I was in the boonies and no doubt last to get electric power if it goes out I would have ways to do the same thing without power. Woodstove to heat and potentially cook even if to just warm up some soup or a gas stove to cook a small generator to run the well pump refridgerator and washing machine wood or gas hot water that is a bit old school and needs no electricity. When i was around 7 my grandparents used to have a gas / kerosene stove a gas refridgerator several kerosene storm lamps and a gas water heater. athere was a converted from coal oil furnace and a coal pot belly stove in the living room almost never used. I used to kid them about all the very old time things they used to live day to day. My grandfathers answer was 'have you ever been cold or hungry here when there is no power for days on end?' a smart old guy. If I lived well off the grid in distance I think that is the thinking I would use along with a can I fix with the tools and knowledge I have about it. It is the direction I am headed personally..


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## sesmith (Feb 1, 2013)

Desuperheater that runs off of my GSHP.  The 40 gal desuperheater tank feeds a standard electric waterheater that boosts the temp. as needed.  The electric tank is on a timer and only comes on when the rate is cheaper at night.


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## maple1 (Feb 1, 2013)

80 gallon electric, heated also by my wood boiler & storage via sidearm heat exchanger.

Heated solely by wood now, and hopefully all non-heating season too.

Had an oil boiler with tankless coil - the most inefficient way there is to heat DHW in the non-heating season. My now-empty oil tank will be following it out the door this summer.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 1, 2013)

My coal stoker produces hot water 24/7 whether i need it or not for heat so it is essentially a by product of my heating system.


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## Dix (Feb 1, 2013)

Switched to an electric HWH 3 years ago. The OB quit, and years ago there was a separate OHW in the basment, and the plumbing hook ups were still there, so it was easy peasy.

3 showers a day + dishes (clothes in cold water, usually), the LIPA bill went up $40 a month, but not paying for oil.

Bringing the oil back to heat 1/2 the house, probably, so I'll use the oil burner (with coil) for HW in the winter, and swap out to the electric in summer. Until I can figure some thing else out.

Solar is out. For now.


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## nate vignola (Feb 1, 2013)

Solar ( 3- 4'x10' panels) by summer, pellet (Harmon P61) by winter. Insulated 275 gallon HDPE carboy thermal storage. 3 heat exchangers mounted in the carboy, two go-zintas and one go-zouta. Pellet stove feeds one input, solar feeds another. One large exchanger for high volume feed to my 50 gallon water heater. My house hold uses ~1000 gallons a week, no oil, and minimal electric (when I forget to fill the stove or if it rains for 3 days straight).


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## velvetfoot (Feb 1, 2013)

nate vignola said:


> Insulated 275 gallon HDPE carboy thermal storage.



How hot how can you get that without a problem?  I know nothing about plastics.  You insulated yourself?  Sounds interesting.  Thanks.


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## nate vignola (Feb 1, 2013)

It's really just an oversized 1/4" thick milk jug. I run mine with a max limit of 170F. The technical temp limit of HDPE is 180F w/o deformation. I procured the tank locally ($100) with a metal shipping frame and made a plywood/rigid foam wrap for it. It could use another layer of 1" foam board, as I can feel some warmth in the bags of pellets that are stacked against it.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 1, 2013)

Thanks.  Seems like a cost-effective solution.


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## Redbarn (Feb 1, 2013)

Geyser heat pump water heater. Oil as backup.
Switching from oil to HPWH saved us 1 gall of oil per day.


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## nate vignola (Feb 2, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> Thanks. Seems like a cost-effective solution.


Total on the tank was about $500, including the exchangers. The main btu extraction exchanger is 7 loops of 1/2" pex, 100' long (holds about 1 gallon per loop) all in parallel. If I was going to do it again, it would be copper.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 2, 2013)

nate vignola said:


> If I was going to do it again


Doesn't that 180 deformation number make you nervous?


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## nate vignola (Feb 2, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> Doesn't that 180 deformation number make you nervous?


Not at all. 180 is a deformation temp, and since the tank is only holding standing water there is no pressure. There is a metal frame around the carboy that supports the HDPE, so it would be uncharacteristic to fail. These carboys are designed to withstand international shipping conditions, which is a fairly dynamic environment. I would worry if the operating temp was beyond the failure temp of the material, maybe 220, but since the water would be a vapor and vent, I'm not worried.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 2, 2013)

Thanks.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 2, 2013)

Would like to do some solar hot water some day.


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## woodgeek (Feb 2, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Would like to do some solar hot water some day.


 
If you have a space for a HeatPumpWaterHeater? It will use fewer kWh than many if not most commercially installed solar DHW systems.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 2, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> If you have a space for a HeatPumpWaterHeater? It will use fewer kWh than many if not most commercially installed solar DHW systems.


How does a simple water pump use more KW than a compressor?


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## GaryGary (Feb 2, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> If you have a space for a HeatPumpWaterHeater? It will use fewer kWh than many if not most commercially installed solar DHW systems.


 
Hi Wood,
Where does that number come from -- does not seem right to me?

My solar water heater with a Grundfos pump uses 55 watts for pumping for maybe 4 hours a day for 0.2 KWH a day.

Gary


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## johnny1720 (Feb 2, 2013)

My house has an electric when I moved in 6 years ago.  It blew apart one day, I made the jump to a propane on demand it costs me $35.00 per month (or less).  We take 2 showers, and 2 baths.  We run the dishwasher every day along with the washing machine.  When I installed the propane on demand my bill went down almost $70 per month.  For me it was a no brainer and it has served me will for the last 5 years with out issue.


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## nate379 (Feb 2, 2013)

You were spending over $100 a month in electric JUST to heat hot water?! 




johnny1720 said:


> My house has an electric when I moved in 6 years ago. It blew apart one day, I made the jump to a propane on demand it costs me $35.00 per month (or less). We take 2 showers, and 2 baths. We run the dishwasher every day along with the washing machine. When I installed the propane on demand my bill went down almost $70 per month. For me it was a no brainer and it has served me will for the last 5 years with out issue.


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## johnny1720 (Feb 2, 2013)

nate379 said:


> You were spending over $100 a month in electric JUST to heat hot water?!


 
No,

My electric bill went down $70.00 each month,  then I got a propane bill which was $35 per month.  I think my old electric tank was really sucking the juice must have been going to ground or something


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## woodgeek (Feb 2, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> How does a simple water pump use more KW than a compressor?


 
Most commercially installed residential solar DHW systems have a 'solar fraction' around 50-60%, the rest comes from a backup heater, usually a coil.  A HPWH with a EF = 2.2, versus EF = 1 for a resistive backup (assume parasitic losses are supplied by the solar for 'free'), uses only 1/2.2 or 45% as much as a normal electric tank. IOW, it uses about the same amount of electricity as a typical commercial solar DHW system using coil backup with a 55% solar fraction, (and not costing the elec used by the pump).  Oh yeah, and commercial solar costs 3x more than HPWH.

For some fraction numbers, look at: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/solar-thermal-dead


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 2, 2013)

THe space i have the water heater in is heated finished basement area. A HP water heater would decrease the air temp only to have the main heating unit re heat it up again. Not efficient in my case.


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## woodgeek (Feb 2, 2013)

Got it. My old heater was in a (conditioned) laundry room, but it had a wall adjoining a (semi-conditioned) garage.  I put the new heater in the garage, and plumbed it in through the wall, with no increase in run length.  Of course, every situation is different.


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## GaryGary (Feb 2, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Most commercially installed residential solar DHW systems have a 'solar fraction' around 50-60%, the rest comes from a backup heater, usually a coil. A HPWH with a EF = 2.2, versus EF = 1 for a resistive backup (assume parasitic losses are supplied by the solar for 'free'), uses only 1/2.2 or 45% as much as a normal electric tank. IOW, it uses about the same amount of electricity as a typical commercial solar DHW system using coil backup with a 55% solar fraction, (and not costing the elec used by the pump). Oh yeah, and commercial solar costs 3x more than HPWH.
> 
> For some fraction numbers, look at: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/solar-thermal-dead


 
Hi,
That solar fraction seems low to me.
Even my old system did better than 90% 
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/PEXColDHW/Performance.htm

I agree that commercially installed solar hot water is a lot more expensive than it should be, but prices vary a lot depending on where you are and who does the installing.  We have a really good outfit in Bozeman that does commercial installs for $5000, which less the 30% federal and $1000 MT rebates is $2500.

Gary


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 2, 2013)

Any install would be done by me,heck id probably build the collectors as well. I built passive solar sun room that slashed my heating bill by 20-25% 10 years ago.


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## Huskyforlife (Feb 2, 2013)

Using an oil boiler to heat water is not cost effective any way you look at it, when you add the high cost of oil up, the poor efficiency, and the excessive maintenance.  It's just terrible.  If you have an unfinished basement then I'd recommend to anyone to get a Heat Pump WH like the GE Geospring.  The heat it will taking from your conditioned space will be negligible during the winter and it will dehumidify your basement.  At my previous residence I switched from an Oil Boiler with a storage tank $1200/yr to a HPWH $200/yr so the payback way about a year.  Of course now out here in midwest we have natural gas which is dirt cheap (during the summer the majority of the bill is the fixed connection fee).


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## Bret Chase (Feb 2, 2013)

I have an oil HWH.... I will replace it with something else when it dies.... not sure what though...


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## woodgeek (Feb 3, 2013)

GaryGary said:


> Hi,
> That solar fraction seems low to me.
> Even my old system did better than 90%
> http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/PEXColDHW/Performance.htm
> ...


 
It seems too low to me too....but that's what studies find in the field. I am sure that your solar fraction is 90%, b/c you monitor it closely. Also, one can get a higher fraction by over-building capacity (which usually requires some summer heat shedding). But solar fraction is not tracked/checked in many pro instals, which are often undersized for clueless homeowners (for higher profit?), and it is often pitifully (as in bordering in scam) low. Also, how many homeowners, when a pump or part fails, just run on the backup for a long time before they get around to getting it fixed?


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## peakbagger (Feb 3, 2013)

Solar hot water driven by DC pump and 50 watt solar panel. That covers me from about Mid april to mid October with enough water that I dint need naything else. After that I have a hot water maker on a separate zone that can either be on oil or wood. I usually just heat up the tank every few days from my wood wood boiler. I keep it at about 170 deg F and have a honeywell tempering valve with some sort of sceondary protection to keep it from sending out over 140deg F. The solar system turns into a preheater in winter so I dont need much from the hot water tank to get 140 deg F. The SHW tank has an electric backup element but I have never hooked it up.


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## woodgeek (Feb 3, 2013)

So, 6 mos of 100% solar fraction, and 6 mos of what % you think?


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## jebatty (Feb 4, 2013)

Off-peak electric, two staged water heaters, 100 gal of storage, separate meter. Added 6+" fiberglass insulation to tanks, install U-shaped heat traps, and insulated all hot water piping. Cost for wife and me was $4-5.00 per month; estimate doubling of that now that daughter and 4-year old have joined the household as of the end of December.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 4, 2013)

jebatty said:


> Off-peak electric, two staged water heaters, 100 gal of storage, separate meter. Added 6+" fiberglass insulation to tanks, install U-shaped heat traps, and insulated all hot water piping. Cost for wife and me was $4-5.00 per month; estimate doubling of that now that daughter and 4-year old have joined the household as of the end of December.


Problem with a separate meter is its $15 a month JUST for the meter. Plus hot water for 2 people showers,washing dishes ect $5.00?
HOw does that happen?   For sure it dont include the meter charge.


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## peakbagger (Feb 4, 2013)

My winter time SHW temp is usually 90 degrees. Using the 80 degree max temp rise off of flat plates guideline that gets me down to about 10 degrees outdoor temp. Much lower than that and the pump doesnt put out enough head to pump the glycol around. On some cold sunny days, I hear the pump running but all its doing is deadheading. Considering my water sources is a deep well, lets assume 45 degrees F into the tank so a 45 degree rise from SHW and another 50 degree rise to get to 140 deg F. Of course I probably only run the shower at 110 deg F so my tempering valve is actually impacting the SHW fraction. MY SHW went in before the wood boiler, if i did it again I wouldnt have bought the extra panel cutting down on my capital costs.


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## jebatty (Feb 6, 2013)

> Problem with a separate meter is its $15 a month JUST for the meter.


 
This isn't quite true with out co-op electric company. We have 3 meters, one for general service, one for electric heat which can be interrupted, and one for off-peak dhw. My statement of $4-5/mo included charge for power, power cost adjustment, and distribution. I did not include one flat charge of $12.00, which is the same whether one meter or 3 meters, and it's called basic charge. There is no separate or additional charge for additional meters.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 6, 2013)

jebatty said:


> This isn't quite true with out co-op electric company. We have 3 meters, one for general service, one for electric heat which can be interrupted, and one for off-peak dhw. My statement of $4-5/mo included charge for power, power cost adjustment, and distribution. I did not include one flat charge of $12.00, which is the same whether one meter or 3 meters, and it's called basic charge. There is no separate or additional charge for additional meters.


That must be a sub-meter with one main meter on a single line. Here in PA PP&L power was just granted a rate increase that included a jump in the Meter charge From $8 to $15 Almost double. If you have a seperate line for your garage thats another charge as well.


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