# Heating Oil was at $1.85 a gallon, It's on the rise again!!! $2.09 today http://www.cashoil.com/



## sydney1963 (Nov 14, 2008)

I bought my 3 tons for $234 a pallet back in the spring.  I think if it goes below $2.00 I may burn oil and save the pellets for next season. 

http://www.cashoil.com/


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## imacman (Nov 14, 2008)

If your oil gets down to $1.90, the cost per BTU will be about the same for pellets or oil......any lower, and oil is the way to go.


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## iceman (Nov 14, 2008)

sydney1963 said:
			
		

> I bought my 3 tons for $234 a pallet back in the spring.  I think if it goes below $2.00 I may burn oil and save the pellets for next season.


2,29 here put 125 gallons in and now don't mind if the furnace kicks in
but i burn much more wood


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## Souzafone (Nov 14, 2008)

See, a pellet pig would fill up with cheap oil, then keep it and continue to burn pellets. Even if it's cheaper to burn the oil, just how much cheaper is it? I'd be willing to bet pellets will be more stable next year, but I don't think anyone would be surprised now if oil is $5/gal next year. Think of the potential savings if you held that oil for 2 or 3 years. Do you think oil will be this cheap in February after you've burnt off the cheap stuff?


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## imacman (Nov 14, 2008)

Souzafone said:
			
		

> See, a pellet pig would fill up with cheap oil, then keep it and continue to burn pellets. Even if it's cheaper to burn the oil, just how much cheaper is it? I'd be willing to bet pellets will be more stable next year, but I don't think anyone would be surprised now if oil is $5/gal next year. Think of the potential savings if you held that oil for 2 or 3 years. Do you think oil will be this cheap in February after you've burnt off the cheap stuff?



You DO have a point.......


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## sydney1963 (Nov 14, 2008)

Really good point.


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## Xena (Nov 14, 2008)

It's not that price where I am.  My guy is at $2.56
but was up to $2.74 a few days ago. You can bet
the prices aren't going to stay as low as that. Not
where I am anyway.  As long as I can remember the
prices have jolted up when the real cold weather hits.
Long story short, I'll still be burning pellets.


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## DiggerJim (Nov 14, 2008)

zeta said:
			
		

> It's not that price where I am.  My guy is at $2.56
> but was up to $2.74 a few days ago. You can bet
> the prices aren't going to stay as low as that. Not
> where I am anyway.  As long as I can remember the
> ...


Despite the price of oil futures going down over the past few days, the price of December home heating oil futures was up. The raw feedstock is only one factor in the price of the refined heating oil. I'll bet they're counting on steady demand (or even increasing due to the forecasted cold winter) which is something they can't count on for gasoline anymore (the demand for gasoline has crashed this year).


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## imacman (Nov 14, 2008)

zeta said:
			
		

> It's not that price where I am.  My guy is at $2.56
> but was up to $2.74 a few days ago. You can bet
> the prices aren't going to stay as low as that. Not
> where I am anyway.  As long as I can remember the
> ...



I agree Zeta,  the price here isn't that low either, but if I have any spare $$ when I think the price has bottomed out, I'm going to fill the tank again....it's gotta be better than the $4.19 my dealer "friend" charged me last fillup.

Yes, the price usually goes up when the real cold weather hits, but I did notice a trend that shows the price dropping in the middle of January just about every year.....that's when I'm really going to be paying attention.


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## natnyer (Nov 14, 2008)

I am going to burn pellets until a nuclear power plant or equivalent can supply me with reasonable electric power to heat my house without the need for any foreign oil.However if American oil is available at the same cost I will buy that to support American companies and workers.


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## MCPO (Nov 14, 2008)

Actually I`m just as concerned with the availability and price of pellets too.
 Oil came down significantly but pellets didn`t.
 We have to wait and hope.


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## Shortstuff (Nov 14, 2008)

With the price of oil dropping as it is more and more who have opted for alternate fuel will switch back to oil heat which will increase oil demand along with the cold weather and we'll be seeing the natural increase in oil prices. My primary goal is to reduce my own personal use and dependency on foreign oil so I will continue to use my pellet stove. If I used just my oil heat, I'll be needing a fill-up in about 4 weeks, right about the time that fuel oil has gone up considerably once again.

It'll be just my luck that oil drops below $2.00 a gallon, I use just oil and prices go through the roof again. I'll stick with my pellet stove.

Steve


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## trogers (Nov 14, 2008)

An American tale...

Big Oil:  "Come on baby, don't be mad.  Look, I lowered my price again...come on back."

Sheep Consumers: "Well, oil is a few cents less than what I paid for pellets...maybe I'll go back to him"

Big Oil:  "That's right baby, come on back...I love you and I promise to be good"

Sheep Consumer:  "Ok, I guess you are not as bad as I thought...I'll come back"

Two months later---OPEC cuts production in response to decrease demand.

Sheep:  "I can't believe it...oil went up to $3.50 or $4.00...that bastard, I'm leaving him" 

Big Oil:  "You'll be back, sheep...you always come back.  I'll lower my price a bit and you'll come running back" 

Sheep (crying):  "I'm never ever never coming back to you Big Oil...you have screwed me for the last time! Well, maybe I'll come back if you get back down to $2.50 again..."

The saga continues.  

Come on people!  They will be manipulating the price back up in no time.  I'm sticking with pellets out of principle...plus, I use propane


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## natnyer (Nov 14, 2008)

propane is a byproduct of oil refining and natural gas processing.


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## trogers (Nov 14, 2008)

natnyer said:
			
		

> propane is a byproduct of oil refining and natural gas processing.



My point is that propane is always more expensive thatn oil per btu, so I reaaly don't get excited when the prices drop to $2.00 because I'll never see those savings using propane.


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## iceman (Nov 14, 2008)

NH Pellet Head said:
			
		

> natnyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




oil 2.29 propane 1.69 who woulda imagined that!!
anyways people you can check    http://www.newenglandoil.com/index.asp it covers mass, most of new england for oil prices by area/zip code


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## Panhandler (Nov 14, 2008)

NH Pellet Head said:
			
		

> An American tale...
> 
> Big Oil:  "Come on baby, don't be mad.  Look, I lowered my price again...come on back."
> 
> ...



Sounds like the saga of Ike and Tina. "C'mon back Baby, I won't hit you upside the head no more."


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## schenkp (Nov 14, 2008)

Oil is going back to the 30 - 40 range and WILL remain there for the next few years.  WHY because the world economy is broken and its going to get a LOT worse before it gets better.  Demand is down because no one has any money to buy good that are manufactured from oil i.e. China economy is worse than ours and the European Union is getting hit worse than us.  Oil is going down alot more.

Dont believe me take a look at all the foreclosure signs in your neighborhood.


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## whippingwater (Nov 14, 2008)

According to most fuel calculators, propane would need to be under $1.00 to compete with the price I can buy pellets for. I'll never see prices that low again so it's no contest based on price alone without weighing the other benefits.


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## MrKLeen (Nov 14, 2008)

schnkp said:
			
		

> Oil is going back to the 30 - 40 range and WILL remain there for the next few years.  WHY because the world economy is broken and its going to get a LOT worse before it gets better.  Demand is down because no one has any money to buy good that are manufactured from oil i.e. China economy is worse than ours and the European Union is getting hit worse than us.  Oil is going down alot more.
> 
> Dont believe me take a look at all the foreclosure signs in your neighborhood.



Thats fine with me, and when most of the pellet population switches back to Oil, pellet demand will be lower and the pellet companies will have to lower their price to compete with Oil. I would rather help pay Steve Walker's mortgage and keep a few people in a regular paycheck in my own state, rather than help to finance another palace for another sheik that would just as well see my family and I freeze to death. I will fill my oil tank when I think it is lowest possible price for DHW and backup heat if needed. Not to mention I am a fan of low gas prices and that will help to even everything out anyway.

This is of course dependent on my stove functioning as well as I hope when it gets really cold up here.


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## allhandsworking (Nov 14, 2008)

Yeah keep the cash in the US burn wood!


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## chrisasst (Nov 14, 2008)

Shortstuff said:
			
		

> With the price of oil dropping as it is more and more who have opted for alternate fuel will switch back to oil heat which will increase oil demand along with the cold weather and we'll be seeing the natural increase in oil prices. My primary goal is to reduce my own personal use and dependency on foreign oil so I will continue to use my pellet stove. If I used just my oil heat, I'll be needing a fill-up in about 4 weeks, right about the time that fuel oil has gone up considerably once again.
> 
> It'll be just my luck that oil drops below $2.00 a gallon, I use just oil and prices go through the roof again. I'll stick with my pellet stove.
> 
> Steve




exactly, most people in this world don't understand the supply and demand thing.  Like my wife "well gas is getting cheap again, I guess I can drive the gas hog again"  NO!!


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## lessoil (Nov 14, 2008)

Let's see.....
We bought the pellet stove when oil was $4.85/gal.
We bought 200 gals for $4.00/gal in July.  ($800)
We spent $1200 for 4 tons of pellets which should get us through the Winter.
If we burn the $800 worth of oil in the tank then get another 500 gals for $2.00/gal our total cost 
this Winter would be $1800 for oil.  

We will burn pellets for heat and not use the oil other than for hot water!!
OPEC/Oil companies have lost me as a customer!! (For Heat)
I just keep telling myself that this was a long term investment and not just for this year.


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## Jester (Nov 14, 2008)

lessoil said:
			
		

> Let's see.....
> We bought the pellet stove when oil was $4.85/gal.
> We bought 200 gals for $4.00/gal in July.  ($800)
> We spent $1200 for 4 tons of pellets which should get us through the Winter.
> ...




You couldnt have said it better.  Ive got a 50+ year old steam boiler, and it runs for hot water only.  In the heavy heating months I was going through a tank every three weeks.  Id burn pellets unless the damn oil companies get the hint from Bush and give me a profitsharing check or free oil for getting it tucked to me.
Besides, who here could even think of saying they'd rather hear thier furnace run than the stove.  My 15 month old grabs a book and a blanket every night and sits in front of the stove "reading" after dinner, watching the fire.  She'll never sit in front of the radiator doing that!


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## schenkp (Nov 14, 2008)

Jester said:
			
		

> lessoil said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Priceless I love it


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## Lorilooo (Nov 14, 2008)

lessoil said:
			
		

> Let's see.....
> We bought the pellet stove when oil was $4.85/gal.
> We bought 200 gals for $4.00/gal in July.  ($800)
> We spent $1200 for 4 tons of pellets which should get us through the Winter.
> ...



I totally agree!!


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## Jakethepup (Nov 14, 2008)

Since this is my first Pellet Insert, I am going to burn it, but I really never intended for it to heat the whole house. I am locked in at 2.89 cents per gallon for propane, so even it it goes down in price I am stuck with the price and I have already pre paid for this heating season, with that said, my hope is when the Southern States comes by to do the fill up I will be using less propane, doing my part or at least helping to reduce the amount of money I place in the hands of those oversea people.

To be honest I like the heat better, I know heat is heat but it feels warmer, and I can back by butt up against the insert and get warm all over unlike having to stand over a vent. I also enjoy watching it burn, sometimes I find I watch the insert burn and forget about the TV. Unless pellets really increse in price I will be burning them for a long time to come.


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## welshcob (Nov 14, 2008)

Here in New York heating oil is still more expensive than it was last year, even though the price of crude has taken a steep drop.  Anywhere east of Rochester it's still over $3 per gallon.

http://www.nyserda.org/Energy_Information/nyepd.asp

I need oil for DHW, keep waiting for it to drop so I can fill the tank but currently the heating oil dealers are charging the same as diesel fuel at the gas station.  Just makes you want to grumble at somebody....


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## Steveo (Nov 14, 2008)

I have four tons of pellets, well I probably burned 1/2 a ton already but I just bought 100 gallons of oil for $225.00 and will buy another 100 gallons when it goes a little lower. I will keep on burning my pellets and I will use the oil to run the boiler for hot water. If the pellets come down and get really cheap I will buy as many as I can get my hands on so that I can be king of the pellet pigs lol.


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## tinkabranc (Nov 14, 2008)

Steveo said:
			
		

> If the pellets come down and get really cheap I will buy as many as I can get my hands on so that I can be king of the pellet pigs lol.



LOL :lol:


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## camdids (Nov 14, 2008)

I was just cleaning mine and the Oil Truck turned up. $2.55 if I pay within 5 days. He only got 95 gallons in. Havent had a delivery that small in 7 years.


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## globewyre (Nov 14, 2008)

My oill company price  is $3.04 today.   With a lock price of $3.58.  It seems oil is not cheap everywhere.


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## Dougsey (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm pretty low on oil and getting my tank filled today @ $2.59/gal. Will be used for DHW only.


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## imacman (Nov 14, 2008)

Steveo said:
			
		

> I have four tons of pellets........If the pellets come down and get really cheap I will buy as many as I can get my hands on so that I can be king of the pellet pigs lol.



Go for it Steveo...LOL...the throne is open.  I think eernest4 doesn't want the job after all.   :lol:


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## wahsega (Nov 14, 2008)

Never going back!


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## cac4 (Nov 14, 2008)

could be worse...

my oil tank is full of $5 oil.  (yeah, thats right.  I think the @%$*@s filled it the very day that oil topped 147/barrel).  filled in May or June...which of course, means that I haven't burned very much yet.  So now that oil is down to $2, can I stock up?  NOOOoooo.  my tank is nearly full.  got no place to put it.  Maybe I can get them to bring it to me in cans, so I can make stacks and piles of them in every spare nook and cranny of the house, like I did w/ the 3 tons of pellets in the basement.


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## rayttt (Nov 14, 2008)

current local price is 2.79 a gallon...thats a bit higher than it was when I decided that I need
a cheaper method and went to pellets...so It will have to drop down near 2 bucks a gallon before I'll buy more..
I've used about a cup this year so far..when I turned the furnace on..and verified all was good, then turned it back off..and am burning the pellets I have on hand.


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## moralleper (Nov 14, 2008)

The correct answer should be never.  By not using oil you are not driving up the price.  Part of the price drop is the drop of world consumption.  By continuing to use Pellets you are supporting local business, yes I know the trucks that carry the pellets use fuel but so does the truck that brings you heating oil.


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## control1 (Nov 14, 2008)

I burn 1 bag of pellets a day cost $5. When I use oil I burn 5 to 7 gallons a day, granted I am only heating the downstairs and the upstairs is cold with the stove.
So if I was to use oil only it would cost me say 6 x $2.29=$13.74 per day as oppossed to $5 for the pellets. I do turn on the oil heat for maybe a half hour before the kids go to bed to take the chill out of the upstairs once it gets warm I turn off the furnance, I think this is the most economical way to heat now you have even heat through out the house and you have burnt 1/2 a gallon of oil


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## drizler (Nov 14, 2008)

Terrier Lady said:
			
		

> Here in New York heating oil is still more expensive than it was last year, even though the price of crude has taken a steep drop.  Anywhere east of Rochester it's still over $3 per gallon.
> 
> http://www.nyserda.org/Energy_Information/nyepd.asp
> 
> I need oil for DHW, keep waiting for it to drop so I can fill the tank but currently the heating oil dealers are charging the same as diesel fuel at the gas station.  Just makes you want to grumble at somebody....



Up here in in the land of skyhigh taxes the local price is now $2.79 for oil.   Lets see, the price of a barrel has dropped like a stone recently and yet they finally had the decency to drop the gas down from $2.89.   Something smells really bad here.    Last night the price of wholesale unleaded gas at the rack in Montreal where it all comes from was $1.9ty something.    Why so damned high for oil.    I turn my Peerless boiler on a couple times a day to fill the hot water tank and that's it.   It looks like I will be continuing that tradition.    I have been burning diesel in 5 gallon cans for the past 2 months which I am going to continue.  What a rip off!


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## slls (Nov 14, 2008)

cac4 said:
			
		

> could be worse...
> 
> my oil tank is full of $5 oil.  (yeah, thats right.  I think the @%$*@s filled it the very day that oil topped 147/barrel).  filled in May or June...which of course, means that I haven't burned very much yet.  So now that oil is down to $2, can I stock up?  NOOOoooo.  my tank is nearly full.  got no place to put it.  Maybe I can get them to bring it to me in cans, so I can make stacks and piles of them in every spare nook and cranny of the house, like I did w/ the 3 tons of pellets in the basement.



Time for a second tank, in Maine we are allowed  3- 330 gallon tanks in the cellar.


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## cac4 (Nov 14, 2008)

slls said:
			
		

> Time for a second tank, in Maine we are allowed  3- 330 gallon tanks in the cellar.



There's no room, with all the pellets!!   :lol:


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## ksting (Nov 14, 2008)

I know this is a pellet thread and I'm a wood stove owner but my wood is free so...


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## itworks (Nov 14, 2008)

ksting said:
			
		

> I know this is a pellet thread and I'm a wood stove owner but my wood is free so...



Hey KO do the trees fall down, age, cut, split and transport themselves to your stove. If they do, than your fuel is truly free.


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## sydney1963 (Nov 14, 2008)

$2.13 a gallon today.

http://www.cashoil.com/


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## ksting (Nov 14, 2008)

itworks said:
			
		

> ksting said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All it costs me is my time and the exorcise helps to burn calories!!  

P.S.
I'm sure I'll end up with a Pellet stove eventually but right now I'm happy with the semi-free wood!


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## itworks (Nov 14, 2008)

sydney1963 said:
			
		

> $2.13 a gallon today.
> 
> http://www.cashoil.com/



Thanks for the posting, unfortunately they don't service my area.
You've pointed out another reason to become a Maniac.


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## itworks (Nov 14, 2008)

ksting said:
			
		

> itworks said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you do switch to a pellet stove, and you can continue to exorcise your fuel, then once again you'll  continue to have semi-free fuel

P.P.S

Please don't take offense, I'm just havin a bit of fun after a very tough week


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## DiggerJim (Nov 15, 2008)

Driz said:
			
		

> Up here in in the land of skyhigh taxes the local price is now $2.79 for oil.   Lets see, the price of a barrel has dropped like a stone recently and yet they finally had the decency to drop the gas down from $2.89.   Something smells really bad here.    Last night the price of wholesale unleaded gas at the rack in Montreal where it all comes from was $1.9ty something.    Why so damned high for oil.    I turn my Peerless boiler on a couple times a day to fill the hot water tank and that's it.   It looks like I will be continuing that tradition.    I have been burning diesel in 5 gallon cans for the past 2 months which I am going to continue.  What a rip off!


How about this? Your dealer may have filled *his* tanks for $3.50/gallong a month or so ago. Except his tanks have 100,000 gallons in them. How long do you think it'll take him to get rid of that $3.50/gal oil delivering 100 gallons at a time? Or do you think he should mark it down to $2.50 and lose a hundred thousand dollars?


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## hoverfly (Nov 15, 2008)

On Monday I called my regular oil dealer and asked how much per gal after she replied $3.09 a gal I said thank you and have a nice day. Just before I hung up I heard her give out a long sigh....and they wanted me to pay into a budget plan this year Yeah right! Last winter I locked in at $2.69 and they gave me a hard time of delivering later in the winter when prices were over $4.00!! I called another oil company and had it delivered 190 gallons at $2.59 today, something I would not halved done in the past is shop around. I figured I fill up now the price is not unreasonable and it buys me time to wait on to see what happens on pellet prices to make up rest of my heating needs or buy up to another 150 gallons of oil later in the winter. But for now I have bought me some time..........I feel so much better. My parents however locked in over $4.80 for 480 gallons.........Ouch!!


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## iceman (Nov 15, 2008)

Hoverfly said:
			
		

> On Monday I called my regular oil dealer and asked how much per gal after she replied $3.09 a gal I said thank you and have a nice day. Just before I hung up I heard her give out a long sigh....and they wanted me to pay into a budget plan this year Yeah right! Last winter I locked in at $2.69 and they gave me a hard time of delivering later in the winter when prices were over $4.00!! I called another oil company and had it delivered 190 gallons at $2.59 today, something I would not halved done in the past is shop around. I figured I fill up now the price is not unreasonable and it buys me time to wait on to see what happens on pellet prices to make up rest of my heating needs or buy up to another 150 gallons of oil later in the winter. But for now I have bought me some time..........I feel so much better. My parents however locked in over $4.80 for 480 gallons.........Ouch!!



but what if they don't use it.. don't they get a credit? if so tell them to call the cheaper guy fill up tell the oil company they are burning pellets and when they top you off it will be maybe 30 gallons for the winter and they owe you a credit... then buy from them when the price goes down


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## travlnusa (Nov 15, 2008)

We bought our stove over the summer when LP prices were still on the higher side.  Now LP in this area has dropped.  

We decided to fire up the stove to simply see how well it worked.  Due to the fact that we live in an old farm house where the heating vents were jury rigged into place, the pellet stove heats the house so much better.  More even heat, no cold spots, etc.

If LP gets to the point were it is simply foolish not to be using it over pellets, we will review it, but the quality of life with the stove is soooo much better.

I also agree with others, that if oil based fuels stay low, pellets will have to play along to get along.


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## jtb51b (Nov 15, 2008)

How about this? Your dealer may have filled *his* tanks for $3.50/gallong a month or so ago. Except his tanks have 100,000 gallons in them. How long do you think it'll take him to get rid of that $3.50/gal oil delivering 100 gallons at a time? Or do you think he should mark it down to $2.50 and lose a hundred thousand dollars?[/quote]

Absolutely..  Either that, or eat the whole tank and go out of business.. This is the real world, those gas stations that had 3$ a gallon gas that ran the price up to 4.50 recently as a result of a hurricane were allowed to do so because its a FREE market. That oil guy needs to use some of the profits he procured earlier to keep himself a float until he can make a profit again...  If they can win big, they can lose big-- give it a minute the government will bail them out too..

Jason


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## mascoma (Nov 15, 2008)

Pellet prices will not adjust in the NE until the plants work thru the orders they took when oil was $5.  If oil is much below $2 at the end of this heating season I think some of the pellet plants that have been running 3 shifts will be lowering prices but will only be able to go so low before they start layoffs and ... going under.  Some of the new plants have been built under the assumption of oil staying expensive, It will be several years before you see oil prices rising dramatically again (save for a major disruption supply).  Even if demand is there, there currently is not the capital in the markets to float crude back near $150 barrell.  


I spent a few seconds kicking my own arse about getting $4k into stove and pellets.  What looked like a easy 3 year payoff on my investment in june will be much longer in November.  However I already laid out the cash so will be burning pellets this winter and I'm counting it as my green deed for the year, not to mention I like keeping my fuel money in the LOCAL economy.


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## itworks (Nov 15, 2008)

mascoma said:
			
		

> Pellet prices will not adjust in the NE until the plants work thru the orders they took when oil was $5.  If oil is much below $2 at the end of this heating season I think some of the pellet plants that have been running 3 shifts will be lowering prices but will only be able to go so low before they start layoffs and ... going under.  Some of the new plants have been built under the assumption of oil staying expensive, It will be several years before you see oil prices rising dramatically again (save for a major disruption supply).  Even if demand is there, there currently is not the capital in the markets to float crude back near $150 barrell.
> 
> 
> I spent a few seconds kicking my own arse about getting $4k into stove and pellets.  What looked like a easy 3 year payoff on my investment in june will be much longer in November.  However I already laid out the cash so will be burning pellets this winter and I'm counting it as my green deed for the year, not to mention I like keeping my fuel money in the LOCAL economy.



I totally agree with your analysis. I too like keeping my fuel money locally, but it appears oil, gas, and other fossil fuel prices are going lower, and barring some unexpected crisis, will stay lower until the global economy improves. It appears to me the demand for new pellet stoves and pellets will abate to a point the manufactures will be forced to contract. I well realize that when oil prices jumped to almost $150 a barrel, the demand for alternative fuel appliances soared. Unfortunately I think most of us have a short memory and will go back to buying polluting fuel guzzlers, and using fossil fuels to heat our homes. How sad, we just never seem to learn.


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## trogers (Nov 15, 2008)

iceman said:
			
		

> NH Pellet Head said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where did you get the propane price.. I checked the link and could not find any propane pricing...do you have a site that lists propane?


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## richg (Nov 15, 2008)

natnyer said:
			
		

> I am going to burn pellets until a nuclear power plant or equivalent can supply me with reasonable electric power to heat my house without the need for any foreign oil.However if American oil is available at the same cost I will buy that to support American companies and workers.



THANK YOU! Further, as oil gyrates, demand for pellet stoves and pellets fluctuates as well. Pellet mills and stove manufacturers can not plan for future production which leaves all of us vulnerable to shortages as we just saw.


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## DOBS (Nov 15, 2008)

My forced hot water system never produced the comfort level I'm getting out of the XXV. I did a quick test last night just to be sure. After putting down a couple of Miller Lites sitting in front of the oil furnace, and a couple more in front of the pellet stove... although it was a tough decision, the pellet stove won.  :coolsmile: I bought the 5 tons and I plan to enjoy every one of them this season regardless of oil price. If next years HHO pre-buy price competes with pellets, I might consider splitting the difference. But I like the effects of the stove (heat and ambiance) way too much to go without it.


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## mdaniel (Nov 15, 2008)

I will use whatever is the cheapest. If oil is $2.00/gal, then that is what I will burn. The issue with pellets is they are still very expensive and hard to find by the ton.
This is my 4th season with my pellet stove and the 2nd out of 4 that pellets have been scarce (2005 & 2008). The main issue I have with pellets so far is that 1/2 the time I have had my stove pellets were impossible to purchase. In 2005 I could not get a delivery until late December; so I was still forced to use oil. If pellets are truly to become a viable alternative to oil then manufacturers will need to guarantee enough supply to meet demand. During my 10+ years with oil heat I have never ever had a problem receiving a delivery; even the next day. Right now the pellet industry is screwed up and I do not know if I made the right choice in purchasing a pellet stove. The only bright spot is that I do have a choice to burn either pellets or oil (if I can find pellets). 
At the end of the day I will purchase what is the cheapest product to heat my home and use the savings to go out to dinner and still help the U.S. economy. I don't believe that purchasing the cheaper product is un-American; your extra money saved can still help the economy; at least indirectly.


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## trogers (Nov 15, 2008)

mdaniel said:
			
		

> I will use whatever is the cheapest. If oil is $2.00/gal, then that is what I will burn. The issue with pellets is they are still very expensive and hard to find by the ton.
> This is my 4th season with my pellet stove and the 2nd out of 4 that pellets have been scarce (2005 & 2008). The main issue I have with pellets so far is that 1/2 the time I have had my stove pellets were impossible to purchase. In 2005 I could not get a delivery until late December; so I was still forced to use oil. If pellets are truly to become a viable alternative to oil then manufacturers will need to guarantee enough supply to meet demand. During my 10+ years with oil heat I have never ever had a problem receiving a delivery; even the next day. Right now the pellet industry is screwed up and I do not know if I made the right choice in purchasing a pellet stove. The only bright spot is that I do have a choice to burn either pellets or oil (if I can find pellets).
> At the end of the day I will purchase what is the cheapest product to heat my home and use the savings to go out to dinner and still help the U.S. economy. I don't believe that purchasing the cheaper product is un-American; your extra money saved can still help the economy; at least indirectly.



I think that we can all agree that using the cheapest fuel is not "un-American", but, in fact is very american.  The free market system is built on the principle of making financial choices that best fit your situation.  Of course, others (and I include myself in this group) may choose to stay away from oil or propane out of discust for the system, which for a very large segment (OPEC) is not a free-market system, but a group of countries that fix pricing.  Now, you will see regular contributors to these forums that will go on and on about felling bad for the local dealers.  Again, this is a free market economy, so if the dealers are not getting the Return on Equity that they want...they can take their capital and put it somewhere ielse that will provide the returns that they need.  My job, and I respectfully submit that it is all of our jobs, to do what is right for our families.  This may be buying the absolutle cheapest form of fuel available, moving to a greener fuel, or mixing both strategies. 

I myself am very excited to have my new stove this season.  I am comforted by knowing that my heating source for the winter is sitting in my basement.  I aim pretty excited that pellets are renewable resource that has less effects on the environment.  But, most of all I am excited that for the first time in my adult life I now have a choice of two different fuels to use to keep my family warm.  The decisions of the oil industry can no longer have complete control of me.  Also, like others on this forum...I can't believe how much better the heat from the stove feels.  

So when you are out to dinner with your family enjoying your savings....buy yourself a beer from me


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## lessoil (Nov 15, 2008)

> I myself am very excited to have my new stove this season.  I am comforted by knowing that my heating source for the winter is sitting in my basement.  I aim pretty excited that pellets are renewable resource that has less effects on the environment.  But, most of all I am excited that for the first time in my adult life I now have a choice of two different fuels to use to keep my family warm.  The decisions of the oil industry can no longer have complete control of me.  Also, like others on this forum...I can't believe how much better the heat from the stove feels.
> 
> So when you are out to dinner with your family enjoying your savings....buy yourself a beer from me



YES!
I now look at oil as my "Backup" heat source!
I just may have 2 beers


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## trogers (Nov 15, 2008)

lessoil said:
			
		

> > I myself am very excited to have my new stove this season.  I am comforted by knowing that my heating source for the winter is sitting in my basement.  I aim pretty excited that pellets are renewable resource that has less effects on the environment.  But, most of all I am excited that for the first time in my adult life I now have a choice of two different fuels to use to keep my family warm.  The decisions of the oil industry can no longer have complete control of me.  Also, like others on this forum...I can't believe how much better the heat from the stove feels.
> >
> > So when you are out to dinner with your family enjoying your savings....buy yourself a beer from me
> 
> ...



That's the spirit!


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## sydney1963 (Nov 15, 2008)

Have one for me.


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## DiggerJim (Nov 15, 2008)

jtb51b said:
			
		

> DiggerJim said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ROTFLMAO! Your charity is astounding. That oil dealer is our neighbor. He's not some "bigwig fat cat" in some far away city. Local oil dealers are just like the corner grocer, the service station owner down the street, etc. The nickel or dime a gallon they've made in profits aren't going to cover the oil they bought to supply their customers. They've never gotten wealthy off of the products & services they sell. The bailouts will be given to the large corporations and the individuals who bought too much house on too little income and now can cry about getting taken advantage of. The local oil dealer is likely simply to go out of business costing him his business and many of our neighbors their jobs. 

I hope that you get to see just who that is when it happens...or maybe you lose your job, need some help and someone decides you had your chance to make plenty of money in the good times so if you can't take some of the money you made over the past few years of great prosperity to keep yourself afloat until you can find a job and feed the family again too bad for you. If you can earn a nice living then you can lose a nice living...but give it a minute and see if the government will bail you out too. (Or considering where you live, why aren't you better prepared for that hurricane so you've got a few hundred or thousand gallons of gas to tide you over after the hurricane comes thru...why do you need someone to sell you cheap gas or help dry your town or fix the buildings or subsidize your insurance? Why should it be my taxes that pay for your desire to live in a hurricane prone area? After all, I don't get hurricanes and I don't ask the govt for a handout everytime a snowstorm comes thru--what's wrong with you people?)

My grandfather had some words of wisdom that apply now -- _A recession is when your neighbor loses his job. A depression is when you lose yours._ Tolerance and charity are called for now, not kneejerk uninformed self-satisfied petty vengance. I expect this doesn't mean much to you based on where you're from (most home heating oil is used in the Northeast) so you don't really know how the business works, but for any of the folks up here, your comments might provide an opportunity to reflect on what kind of sympathy we're going to get from the rest of the country.


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## trogers (Nov 15, 2008)

DiggerJim said:
			
		

> jtb51b said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Digger, I agree that we should not be bailing out companies that fail because of horribly bad business decisions.  I also agree that it is insane to be constantly bailing out coastal residents that make a choice to live in hurricane prone areas.  Furthern to this point...I also understand that _any_ business runs the risk of going out of business for any number of reasons.  Not to sound too cold, but this has always been the case in our economy.  The oil, gas, and propane industries are simply starting to see what other businesses have seen throughout history...Competition!  For decades there have not been many choices for a lot of folks when it came to heating their homes, or fueling their cars.  If you lived in an urban setting for instance you did not have cost effective access to cord wood, so you had to rely on oil or gas to heat your home.  With improvements tho distribution channels, we now have access to many alternatives to oil and gas...such as pellets, solar, geo-thermal, etc.  In our cars, we now have the ability to drive a hybrid that gets double or triple the mileage of gas only cars.  This is called "market evolution".  

I don't know any people that hate the good folks that own fuel oil dealerships.  This is not personal, it is simply the free market economy at work.  For instance, I buy my propane from a dealer in Milford, NH that began selling pellet stoves and pellets last year.  He chose to change his business model with the times so that rather than be put out of business by alternative fuels, he can now be a part of a growing market segment.  As a more personal example, I am in the insurance business.  As you can read daily, the insurance business is in serious trouble.  Almost all of it is self-inflicted.  Some of the larger insurance companies refused to change their interanl risk management  systems to avoid putting their comapnies at risk.  Now, they are seeing the consequences of their in-action.  At the end of the day, their failure to evolve with the times is resulting in many of them closing their doors, or getting in line for some corporate welfare.  The reality is that not all insurance companies are seeing the same results, because some of them made good business decisons to change.

I don't know you, but I certainly respect your pellet stove knowledge based on the posts I read from you.  Maybe you or someone close to you is a fuel oil dealer, I don't know.  If this is the case, I sincerely hope that they are not adversly effected, but in the end...that will be up to them.  The great thing about this country is that it gives evrerybody the ability to work hard and start a business...but, it does not guarantee that they will succeed or sustain...only they can do that.  Remember, the guy who made Ice Boxes loved his company, but then another guy came out with an electric refridgerator and the game changed.  

Thanks for your posts.  I may not agree with all of them, but I respect your opinions and enjoy reading them.


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## trogers (Nov 15, 2008)

DiggerJim said:
			
		

> jtb51b said:
> 
> 
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By the way, it's killing me, what does ROTFLMAO mean?  I have wondered for a while, but have been afraid to ask in fear of showing my lack of message board savvy.


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## sydney1963 (Nov 15, 2008)

Rolling on the floor, laughing my ash off


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## trogers (Nov 15, 2008)

sydney1963 said:
			
		

> Rolling on the floor, laughing my ash off




That's great!  I need to find a dictionary of that stuff.


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## DiggerJim (Nov 15, 2008)

NH Pellet Head said:
			
		

> sydney1963 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.netlingo.com/emailsh.cfm

http://www.webopedia.com/quick_ref/textmessageabbreviations.asp

http://www.aim.com/acronyms.adp

Check out how many you've seen before.


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## Steveo (Nov 15, 2008)

Funny but not really, I was just reading some news about OPEC and the special meeting they are having where Iran is demanding that they cut production on oil so supply and demand will be more in their favor so that they can jack up the price and screw us some more.


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## krooser (Nov 16, 2008)

I use pellets because it keeps my house warm... my furnace doesn't.


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## slheinlein (Nov 17, 2008)

I just called my propane dealer in Southern NH and he quoted me a price of $2.91 per gallon.  This is 3 cents lower than what I paid on my last fill up in May.  Not sure how this can be so high when I see many people that have quoted far lower, closer to $2 per gallon.  I guess since they own my tank and no one else can fill it, they can charge the monopoly price.  I'll continue to use my pellet stove because I like it, its eco friendly and in spite of my price gouging propane company.


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## chas1969 (Nov 17, 2008)

In Northern Michigan propane is near 2$/gal, 2.19 this AM.  (cheboygan, mi)  So burn pellet burn and problems with this except when away from home.   

Chas


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## Wet1 (Nov 18, 2008)

As the price of oil gets close to the cost of pellets (which it appears is happening), I think most people will give up on burning pellets given enough time.  People are generally lazy or busy and burning pellets is not nearly as maintenance-free as oil fired central heating.  I hate big oil as much as the next guy, but given enough time I know I'd go back assuming oil were cheap enough (if I hadn't converted to NG).

In fact, NG in my area is significantly cheaper than burning pellets (even at $205/ton) so even though I enjoy running the pellet stove(s), I don't think I'll be doing anything other than occasional low temp fires this winter.  At some point NG and oil prices will go back up, so I'll save my 5 tons of pellets for when it's more cost effective for me to burn them.


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## ces001 (Nov 18, 2008)

It's the principle   The oil companies keep sticking it to us and we never seem to learn our lesson.  Think long term;  do you really think that the Saudi's, Exxon/Mobil, etc. plan on losing money.  They want as much of our money as they can get their hands on.  I am sticking with pellets for my heat and will buy as little oil and oil based products as possible.  It's not rocket science.  Oil (and all the entrenched companies, lobbiests, etc.)= BAD... Alternative fuels (in our case wood pellets made in the USA) = GOOD.


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## MCPO (Nov 18, 2008)

ces001 said:
			
		

> It's the principle   The oil companies keep sticking it to us and we never seem to learn our lesson.  Think long term;  do you really think that the Saudi's, Exxon/Mobil, etc. plan on losing money.  They want as much of our money as they can get their hands on.  I am sticking with pellets for my heat and will buy as little oil and oil based products as possible.  It's not rocket science.  Oil (and all the entrenched companies, lobbiests, etc.)= BAD... Alternative fuels (in our case wood pellets made in the USA) = GOOD.



Can`t it be said that the pellet industry as a whole stuck it to us too?
 Think!  Don`t you really think the pellet industry wants as much of our money too?
 Or do you have blinders on?
 You now have an option to pick who you want to stick it to you.


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## imacman (Nov 18, 2008)

Gio said:
			
		

> Can`t it be said that the pellet industry as a whole stuck it to us too?



Maybe you can explain that....how?


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## itworks (Nov 18, 2008)

I agree it's the principle, but we all have different principles. Five years ago I decided to hopefully save money by burning pellets. I also changed virtually all my light bulbs to CFL's , purchased only energy star appliances, signed up with my electricity supplier to a time of usage plan, and added a ton of insulation to our home. We try to use our appliances only during the "off-peak" hours, and have been running our pellet stove 24/7. I keep pretty good records, and I know at this point our plan has paid off. I truly love our pellet stove, and will never put it in mothballs, but with the current price of pellets compared to HHO we plan on using oil as our main source of heating. I was hoping that this past spring/summer's run up in oil prices would have been a wake-up call for our nation to develop more fuel efficient cars, and alternate energy sources so that we could continue to be the greatest country in the world that is energy independent, but unfortunately it wasn't. Maybe it's because of the housing crisis that caused a global slowdown that we haven't seen since the great depression, or maybe because our elected officials just don't have the vision of seeing beyond the next day. This is not a political forum, so enough said on this factor. The bottom line is that we are all feeling the financial pinch, and I'm not going to spend additional money to heat my home with pellets. I guess I was fortunate to buy this seasons supply at $225 a ton, and I plan on using some of them. I'll probably try to buy more at a reasonable price in the future. My stove has paid for itself, and I've learned it's great to have choices. When pellets are cheaper than oil I'll burn pellets.


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## Hammerjoe (Nov 18, 2008)

Gio said:
			
		

> ces001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hear hear!
Actually I think that pellets manufacturers are sticking it to us worse than the oil companies.
Think about this, the raw material is abundant, close by and not subject to monkey with suits in some office in New York speculating on the price and yet pellets have almost doubled in less than three years!
So whos sticking it to us again?


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## ces001 (Nov 19, 2008)

Gio said:
			
		

> ces001 said:
> 
> 
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No blinders here.  We always have the option of deciding who will stick it to us with any product we choose to buy; not just with heating oil or wood pellets.  I have no choice but to heat my home when it gets cold and choose to keep my $$$ in the USA by buying wood pellets instead of sending my dollars to the Middle East.  Yes, wood pellets have increased in price due to the increased demand, but they have not tripled in price like oil did over the past year.


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## itworks (Nov 19, 2008)

No blinders here.  We always have the option of deciding who will stick it to us with any product we choose to buy; not just with heating oil or wood pellets.  I have no choice but to heat my home when it gets cold and choose to keep my $$$ in the USA by buying wood pellets instead of sending my dollars to the Middle East.  Yes, wood pellets have increased in price due to the increased demand, but they have not tripled in price like oil did over the past year.[/quote]

All binders off. At this point HHO is currently less than it was a year ago, and pellets are almost twice (if you're lucky to get them) compared to last year.


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## homebrewz (Nov 19, 2008)

Price isn't really an issue, as the furnace never really did the job that the pellet stove does in the kitchen. Its either run the pellet stove,
or bake some bread to warm up the kitchen. Of course, if the price of pellets went way higher for some reason, that might give me some 
pause. Perhaps then it might be time to look at solar options.


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## itworks (Nov 19, 2008)

homebrewz said:
			
		

> Price isn't really an issue, as the furnace never really did the job that the pellet stove does in the kitchen. Its either run the pellet stove,
> or bake some bread to warm up the kitchen. Of course, if the price of pellets went way higher for some reason, that might give me some
> pause. Perhaps then it might be time to look at solar options.


Maybe it's time to look into a more efficient furnace, and when can I come over for that homemade bread.


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## trogers (Nov 19, 2008)

Hear hear!
Actually I think that pellets manufacturers are sticking it to us worse than the oil companies.
Think about this, the raw material is abundant, close by and not subject to monkey with suits in some office in New York speculating on the price and yet pellets have almost doubled in less than three years!
So whos sticking it to us again?[/quote]

Raw material is abundant?  Pellets are made of saw dust and processed wood chips for the most part.  The housing market came to a screeching halt a while back, so the wood waste (sawdust) market has been anything but "abundant".  I agree that pellets are priced high right now, but let's not forget that there was a run on new stoves this summer like no other time in history.  Sure, we could also say that the pellet manufacturers could/should have predicted the increase in demand and planned accordingly, but it also fair to say that this is a relativly new industry and the pellet companies will get better at responding to the market.

I get that everybody with a stove is pissed about higher pellet prices this year, but to compare the pellet industry to the oil industry, as far as thrust-worthyness goes, is insane.  OPEC is a group of oil producing nations that gets together regularly to "set" the price of oil by manipulating production.  We have seen this some a few times over the past two months.  Demand is down...the price goes down...OPEC slows production to artificially drive up prices.  The consumer loses every time.  I have seen no evidence of colusion between the various pellet manufacturers.

Big Oil (& Propane & LNG) has a long history of market fixing.  Enjoy the prices right now, because as sure as the tide goes out and comes in, they will go up.  The worst part about the Oil issue is that the prices most likely go up from demand next month, but rather from a decision by OPEC to further reduce production.  By the way, I got a automatic propane delicery today and I have saved about 60% over the same quarter last year.

Viva Le Pellet Revolution!


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## trogers (Nov 19, 2008)

Hear hear!
Actually I think that pellets manufacturers are sticking it to us worse than the oil companies.
Think about this, the raw material is abundant, close by and not subject to monkey with suits in some office in New York speculating on the price and yet pellets have almost doubled in less than three years!
So whos sticking it to us again?[/quote]

Raw material is abundant? Pellets are made of saw dust and processed wood chips for the most part. The housing market came to a screeching halt a while back, so the wood waste (sawdust) market has been "abundant". I agree that pellets are priced a little high right now, but let's not forget that there was a run on new stoves this summer like no other time in history. Sure, we could also say that the pellet manufacturers could/should have predicted the increase in demand and planned accordingly, but it also fair to say that this is a relatively new industry and the pellet companies will get better at responding to the market.

I get that everybody with a stove is pissed about higher pellet prices this year, but to compare the pellet industry to the oil industry, as far as thrust-worthiness goes, is insane. OPEC is a group of oil producing nations that gets together regularly to "set" the price of oil by manipulating production. We have seen this some a few times over the past two months. Demand is down...the price goes down...OPEC slows production to artificially drive up prices. The consumer loses every time. I have seen no evidence of collusion between the various pellet manufacturers.

Big Oil (& Propane & LNG) has a long history of market fixing. Enjoy the prices right now, because as sure as the tide goes out and comes in, they will go up. The worst part about the Oil issue is that the prices most likely go up from demand next month, but rather from a decision by OPEC to further reduce production. By the way, I got a automatic propane delivery today and I have saved about 60% over the same quarter last year.

Viva Le Pellet Revolution!


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## trogers (Nov 19, 2008)

Sorry for the double post...I get so excited!


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## ces001 (Nov 19, 2008)

The point I was trying to make was that HHO tripled in only one year,  pellets did not.  Pellets went up in price because of increased demand which is a basic concept.  The bigger picture is that we need several alternatives to heating oil, but they are very slow in coming.  I contemplated my pellet stove purchase for two years before finally taking the plunge.  Natural gas is not available where I live and I don't want to hassle with stacking and splitting wood.  That leaves me with pellets.(and did I mention that buying pellets is buying "American")  Heating oil may be cheap today but don't bet on it staying that way.  Now that we have established the fact that both the pellet and oil industries are in it for the profit, I am sure that we can agree that the more choices we have, the better off we will be.


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## MrKLeen (Nov 19, 2008)

I really don't think the pellet companies are sticking it to us there was a true supply/demand issue coupled with ridiculous gasoline prices, and I dont believe there was anything more to it than that. There was a huge boom in Pellet stove sales due to just under $5 a gallon heating oil in July (It got to 4.59 at my oil co. and they are typically the cheapest around). Construction was down so there was a lack of sawdust and beyond that, the facilities just have not been in place to pump out any more pellets. I know of 2 other pellet mills that have just come online or will be soon in NH alone so hopefully next year, supply will not be as much of a factor. Oil is a much more complex commodity. We got screwed hard by speculation in the markets, refining issues, and many levels of extremely greedy people. Thats not to say the people who deal in pellets aren't greedy, after all we are in a capitalistic society. Personally I dont consider HHO at $2.60 cheap fuel by any stretch. if it gets <2.00 bucks a gallon that might be a different story. At the end of the day having a choice is truly a great tool, at that point we vote with our wallets and let the markets do what they do.


***EDIT*** - Holy crap this thread active, there were 6 posts in the time it took me to write this


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## welshcob (Nov 19, 2008)

Oh, let me stick my neck out here.<G>  I don't think the pellet companies (either manufacturers or dealers) are "stickiing it" to anyone.  When the price of crude oil hit $140 a barrel,  the price of EVERYTHING was forced upwards.   Raw materials don't magically beome pellets, nor do they jump into the bag on their own - it takes energy to manufacture and transport, not to mention all those plastic bags which I'm sure are more expensive than they were two years ago.  I just opened a pallet of pellets this weekend, and I can tell you the Clean Energy folks did not stint on the wrapping - I'm sure it cost them for all that plastic, but I feel comfortable that my pellets have been well protected.   My brother is an independent  trucker, so I have a good idea what it costs to transport those pallets of pellets.

Let me see.....horse feed, chicken feed, baled wood shavings, hay.  All of these things have doubled in price in the past 18 months because the costs of production and transportation have doubled.  And you folks are whining because pellets have increased less than 50% ???

I just jumped on the pellet stove bandwagon this year because I literally could not have paid to heat this 200 year old house on $4.39 a gallon HHO.  As the price of oil has come back down (to last year's inflated levels) the payback on the pellet stove will take a bit longer than the one year I originally calculated.  But even with $300 a ton pellets versus today's $2.69 a gallon HHO, my FUEL costs are much cheaper running the pellet stove.  

Remember, the reduction in the price of crude has only been within the past few weeks.  It will take some time for that to trickle down.


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## itworks (Nov 19, 2008)

ces001 said:
			
		

> The point I was trying to make was that HHO tripled in only one year,  pellets did not.  Pellets went up in price because of increased demand which is a basic concept.  The bigger picture is that we need several alternatives to heating oil, but they are very slow in coming.  I contemplated my pellet stove purchase for two years before finally taking the plunge.  Natural gas is not available where I live and I don't want to hassle with stacking and splitting wood.  That leaves me with pellets.(and did I mention that buying pellets is buying "American")  Heating oil may be cheap today but don't bet on it staying that way.  Now that we have established the fact that both the pellet and oil industries are in it for the profit, I am sure that we can agree that the more choices we have, the better off we will be.


Yes the pellet and oil industries are both in it for the profit, forgive me but what industry's business model is targeted at a loss or even a break even? I too did a lot of research before buying my pellet stove, and I think I made the correct decision. I'm just sure burning pellets at this time makes economic sense.


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## sydney1963 (Nov 19, 2008)

I think we are very smart to have a couple of options.


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## MrKLeen (Nov 19, 2008)

sydney1963 said:
			
		

> I think we are very smart to have a couple of options.



...and thats the bottom line.


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## ces001 (Nov 19, 2008)

Terrier Lady said:
			
		

> Oh, let me stick my neck out here.<G>  I don't think the pellet companies (either manufacturers or dealers) are "stickiing it" to anyone.  When the price of crude oil hit $140 a barrel,  the price of EVERYTHING was forced upwards.   Raw materials don't magically beome pellets, nor do they jump into the bag on their own - it takes energy to manufacture and transport, not to mention all those plastic bags which I'm sure are more expensive than they were two years ago.  I just opened a pallet of pellets this weekend, and I can tell you the Clean Energy folks did not stint on the wrapping - I'm sure it cost them for all that plastic, but I feel comfortable that my pellets have been well protected.   My brother is an independent  trucker, so I have a good idea what it costs to transport those pallets of pellets.
> 
> Let me see.....horse feed, chicken feed, baled wood shavings, hay.  All of these things have doubled in price in the past 18 months because the costs of production and transportation have doubled.  And you folks are whining because pellets have increased less than 50% ???
> 
> ...




I agree with you.  Even if the price of oil keeps dropping, I will stick with my pellet stove.  The oil companies are just waiting for the chance to jack the price back up again.


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## hoverfly (Nov 19, 2008)

I will be holding on to mine and using it once in a while if oil goes lower, can't beat constant heat in a drafty home. If oil delivery guys are smart they better get in to the business of delivering pellets to homes as well.


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## mjbrown (Nov 19, 2008)

i dont care if they drop the price of oil to $1 per gallon....which we will never see again.the big oil companies are only going to get what it takes to fill my car with gas to get to work. i have a full barrel of oil, and 4 tons of pellets, and the pellets should get me thru the winter . if not, i will buy more pellets. the oil WILL go back up.imho, it was only brought down because the oil companies were not making any money, and once they suck people back in, the price will go back up.

mike


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## jeff6443 (Nov 19, 2008)

Thats an easy one I have NG  I froze last winter in this house and paid 
 . Spent 4500.00 for woodstove complete w install . So far free wood . Tis year 
not dry enough . But next year thanks to you guys  . I m ready 
 so I ll switch back when I recover my 4500.00 and think burning sucks .
 Ever see a person s face when they walk into your house  and see it feel it 
 I like this way of life the scroung the cut the split the stack .  just my 2 cents PS I am a cheap guy when its daily cash
 I m always looking for the free lunch  JM


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## Catfishjack (Nov 19, 2008)

I use kerosene. It is currently $2.90 per gallon where I reside. I paid $230.00 a ton for pellets/ no tax...Kerosene would have to be $2.30 per gallon for me to heat cheaper than pellet. Pellet heat is better in my family's opinion than kerosene...I don't see kerosene going down that far...if it does ..oh well..it will go back up again..it will follow the economy...so will pellets.....Hmmmmmmmmmm..Pellets...I like em!! My 2 cents: I will give my money to the pellet people..I'm tired thatsgiving my money to some sheik in a country where I don't live.....


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## Hammerjoe (Nov 19, 2008)

What do you guys think will happen if oil goes up?
Do you think pellets will stay at the price they are?
No of course not, they will go up even more. 
I only pray that comes spring oil has not increased by a whole lot and then maybe we will see a drop in the pellets price.
If oil goes up I can almost guarantee you that pellets will go up as well.

Less than three years ago a bag of pellets here in the Maritimes Canada cost $3.70.
It is being sold these days at $6.49. Do the math.

You guys strike me funny with the excuses that theres a shortage of raw material, isnt it the same with oil crude?
Doesnt it cost alot to extract it from the ground?
Doesnt it have to be transported as well? I dont recall shipping pellets from Saudi Arabia, do you?
Doesnt it take energy to convert it to fuel? I wonder who uses more energy?
Doesnt it have to be transported to your tank? Do you get your pellets delivered or do you drive your pick up truck to pick them up? If yes how much does that cost in gas?

So again whos sticking it to us?

I am sorry but comparing pellets to oil I think pellets lose in every economic aspect, theres no justification why pellets are not cheaper than oil.


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## sydney1963 (Nov 19, 2008)

Not enough sawdust.


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## Lobstah (Nov 19, 2008)

"I am sorry but comparing pellets to oil I think pellets lose in every economic aspect, theres no justification why pellets are not cheaper than oil. "

First, I think they are cheaper than oil?

Second, of course pellets will go up if oil goes up.  That's what a free market does.  Anyone who produces goods or services should be able to sell those goods or services for whatever the market will bear, as long as there is no monopoly involved.  Price is dictated by supply and demand.  The oil market got screwed up because of speculators impacting supply.  In effect, they "locked up" a major portion of future oil, and held onto those contracts, forcing the price higher and higher.  Get the speculators out of the market and you'll see steadier prices.  Not flat...but steadier.  Want prices to drop?...open up the shale oil fields in Wyoming that more than equal the total field size of Saudi Arabia.  Open up ANWR.  

On a side note, most electricity companies are not free market, as their prices are dictated by the government.  They are usually allowed about  profit on their "goods", which is electricity.  This is what makes taxing coal-fired powerplants so funny, because the government SPECIFIES that they pass their costs on to the consumer with a garaunteed  profit.  So by taxing them, the government will actually INCREASE their profits.

Any idea who'll be paying for that?   yeah...that's right.

Us.

Lob


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## Wet1 (Nov 19, 2008)

itworks said:
			
		

> ces001 said:
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Didn't you mean to say "I'm just *not *sure burning pellets at this time makes economic sense"?  If so, I agree.


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## itworks (Nov 19, 2008)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> itworks said:
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Yes. I did mean to say I'm just *NOT* sure burning pellets at this time makes economic sense.

Thanks for pointing out my typo.


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## ces001 (Nov 19, 2008)

Hammerjoe said:
			
		

> What do you guys think will happen if oil goes up?
> Do you think pellets will stay at the price they are?
> No of course not, they will go up even more.
> I only pray that comes spring oil has not increased by a whole lot and then maybe we will see a drop in the pellets price.
> ...




It's all about supply & demand, not excuses.

-Oil went up - people switched to pellets (by the thousands) - pellets went up ... it's as simple as that.  
-As the demand for pellets increases, the number of pellet manufacturers will increase and the overall price for pellets will level off.  This will not happen overnight.  In the meantime, we are all sorry to inconvenience you by switching to wood pellets and driving the cost of your pellets up.  
-The barriers to entry in the wood pellet manufacturing business are very limited compared to oil. It doesn't take an act of Congress to open a new manufacturing facility for wood pellets unlike drilling for oil AND opening new oil refineries.    

Yes, pellets should be a lot cheaper than oil, but this will not happen overnight.  Do you think the infrastructure for the oil business sprang up in just a few years?  It took decades.  

Let me give you two real life examples... facts not opinion:

1. I just signed a new tenant in a commercial unit that I own.  Guess what his business is....manufacturing wood pellets!  This is not some large company with deep pockets.  This is a two man operation with a plan to make wood pellets.  From what I have seen so far, it only takes a few small pieces of equipment to get started and he already has an abundant supply of raw materials lined up with local businesses.  This scenario will be repeated across the country (US & Canada) over and over, leading to an increased supply of wood pellets and more competetive pricing.  

2. I already did the math; even at today's prices (pellets at $5.50/bag vs. heating oil at $ 2.49/gal) I will save $900.00 this winter heating with pellets (3 tons) instead of oil (700 gals).  Would I like to buy my pellets for $ 3.70/bag... of course!  But even at today's prices, pellets are the way to go.  Incidentally, even at your price of $6.49/bag, which seems like the extreme high end of price ranges, I would still be saving $ 770.00 this winter.


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## itworks (Nov 19, 2008)

2. I already did the math; even at today's prices (pellets at $5.50/bag vs. heating oil at $ 2.49/gal) I will save $900.00 this winter heating with pellets (3 tons) instead of oil (700 gals).  Would I like to buy my pellets for $ 3.70/bag... of course!  But even at today's prices, pellets are the way to go.  Incidentally, even at your price of $6.49/bag, which seems like the extreme high end of price ranges, I would still be saving $ 770.00 this winter.[/quote]

Based on your math, 3 tons (150; 40lb bags) of pellets provides the equivalent heat of 700 gals of oil, or one bag=4.667 gals of oil.
I wish I could buy pellets and/or a stove that produced those results. I've done lots of research that indicates one bag of pellets is equivalent to 2 1/4-2 1/2 gals of oil. My personal experience indicates one bag=2.35 gals.

What stove and pellets are you using?


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## Wet1 (Nov 19, 2008)

ces001 said:
			
		

> 2. I already did the math; even at today's prices (pellets at $5.50/bag vs. heating oil at $ 2.49/gal) I will save $900.00 this winter heating with pellets (3 tons) instead of oil (700 gals).  Would I like to buy my pellets for $ 3.70/bag... of course!  But even at today's prices, pellets are the way to go.  Incidentally, even at your price of $6.49/bag, which seems like the extreme high end of price ranges, I would still be saving $ 770.00 this winter.



Woooooo Tonto  Save $900?!?!  3 tons of pellets doesn't even come close to equalling 700 gal. of oil  3 tons of pellets is roughly equavelent to a little over 300 gal. of oil, not 700 gal.


EDIT:  I see "itworks" beat me to this...


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## mlwschultz (Nov 19, 2008)

We're going to continue burning our pellet stove, regardless of the price of oil.  We like the heat it provides and like the fact that we're burning as little foreign oil as possible.  The price of heating oil will go up, it's getting colder, demand will rise, prices will go up.  We still need oil for hot water, but we'll keep on burning pellets for the majority of our heat.


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## chas1969 (Nov 19, 2008)

3 tons of pellets is about 360 gallons of oil.  

Chas


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## Mainer007 (Nov 19, 2008)

Pellet heat all the way Keep my heating dollar's in the USA! (even Canada is better then the Middle East)


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## ces001 (Nov 19, 2008)

itworks said:
			
		

> 2. I already did the math; even at today's prices (pellets at $5.50/bag vs. heating oil at $ 2.49/gal) I will save $900.00 this winter heating with pellets (3 tons) instead of oil (700 gals).  Would I like to buy my pellets for $ 3.70/bag... of course!  But even at today's prices, pellets are the way to go.  Incidentally, even at your price of $6.49/bag, which seems like the extreme high end of price ranges, I would still be saving $ 770.00 this winter.



Based on your math, 3 tons (150; 40lb bags) of pellets provides the equivalent heat of 700 gals of oil, or one bag=4.667 gals of oil.
I wish I could buy pellets and/or a stove that produced those results. I've done lots of research that indicates one bag of pellets is equivalent to 2 1/4-2 1/2 gals of oil. My personal experience indicates one bag=2.35 gals.

What stove and pellets are you using?[/quote]


Your point (and Wet1's) is well taken.  I am using a harman accentra fireplace insert and green team pellets.  I will post more later this afternoon, but in the meantime please understand that I have owned the stove for about 2-1/2 weeks and my calculations are based partly on my personal daily use so far of approx. 1-1/2 bags per day and mostly on information gathered from others who have been burning wood pellets for at least a year.  Gotta go for now but will be back this afternoon with more info.


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## Wet1 (Nov 19, 2008)

ces001 said:
			
		

> itworks said:
> 
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> ...




Your point (and Wet1's) is well taken.  I am using a harman accentra fireplace insert and green team pellets.  I will post more later this afternoon, but in the meantime please understand that I have owned the stove for about 2-1/2 weeks and my calculations are based partly on my personal daily use so far of approx. 1-1/2 bags per day and mostly on information gathered from others who have been burning wood pellets for at least a year.  Gotta go for now but will be back this afternoon with more info.[/quote]
If you were using 700 gal. of oil, you're probably heating a minimum of 1500 sq ft.  I think you'll find that as the temps drop, you'll be using a lot more pellets than you might have been using over the last couple of weeks.  I also think you'll find that it is difficult to evenly spread the heat throughout the house (especially as temps drop) w/o turning your house into a wind tunnel.  When you look at the low cost of oil today, and then factor in the cost of pellets and electricity to operate the stove and distribute the heat, I think you'll find there's little, if any, savings to be had based on today's prices.  The only way you might actually save some money is if you don't heat the remote areas in the house as much and use the stove as the main source of heat in the main living area(s)... this way you are using less total energy to 'heat' the house.


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## slls (Nov 19, 2008)

Check my math.

I ton of pellets is = to 114 gallons of oil. 1 gal = 140,000 BTU. At 8000 BTU per pound, 17.5 lbs  = 140,000 BTU. 2.28 gallon in a bag X 50 =114 gallons. $6 a bag is = to $2.62 gallon of oil. My pellets cost $4.97 a bag delivered in June.


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## itworks (Nov 19, 2008)

slls said:
			
		

> Check my math.
> 
> I ton of pellets is = to 114 gallons of oil. 1 gal = 140,000 BTU. At 8000 BTU per pound, 17.5 lbs  = 140,000 BTU. 2.28 gallon in a bag X 50 =114 gallons. $6 a bag is = to $2.62 gallon of oil. My pellets cost $4.97 a bag delivered in June.



Using your assumptions, which I basically agree with:
1 bag of pellets=2.28 gals of oil
1 bag of pellets cost $6.00
 So that would mean the "break even" cost is $2.63 gal
 Most of us can currently purchase oil cheaper than $2.63 gal.

As I said in my earlier thread, I'll still use my pellet stove, but not as my primary source of heating at this point.
I'm pretty sure things will change, and I'm glad I have the option to change also.


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## cac4 (Nov 19, 2008)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> The only way you might actually save some money is if you don't heat the remote areas in the house as much and use the stove as the main source of heat in the main living area(s)... this way you are using less total energy to 'heat' the house.




I think thats the whole point.  btu x efficiency vs. btu x efficiency  when comparing oil FURNACES to pellet STOVES is not a fair comparison.  Its the "stove vs. furnace" thing that makes the difference.  This is something that the "pellets ain't much of a bargain" camp leaves out of the equation.  

All things being equal....well, thats another point.  they almost never ARE equal.  

So, let me give you my rationale for why I think pellets are still a bargain, in MY house.  

I have a oil forced hot air furnace.  NG is not an option.  Water is already being handled by electricity.  The furnace is "80% efficient", but that is calculated by measuring the exhaust temp.  The air that actually flows into my living space?  I don't think I'm getting anywhere close to 80% of the btu's in that oil into my living room.  

The "irl" friends I have that have been long-time pellet burners have told me what they actually use for pellets in a season.  Their houses are similar in size to mine...one is a little bigger.  Neither are well insulated.  One has a huge open cathedral ceiling.  The other has lots of small rooms.  They use 4 to 4.5 tons a year.  My house is smaller, low ceilings, 6" of insulation, double pane glass, etc, etc.  its "new, and tight".  It also has a very open floor plan.  all in all, "optimal" setup for a pellet stove.  I should use significantly less pellets than my friends...how much?  we won't know for sure until next spring, but I suspect it'll be 3 to 3.5 tons.  But the "btu math" says I'll need 4.5 tons to replace my average 600 gallons of oil.  

In the long run, I think it'll be cheaper "per btu", as well, even though it may not be right this minute, but you have to also consider the overall efficiency of the method of heating, not just the cost per btu.


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## MCPO (Nov 19, 2008)

cac4 said:
			
		

> Wet1 said:
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And what`s the guarantee that the new pellet stove is going to be 80% efficient?
 Let me say this, If my central heating system or my house energy efficiency values were not reasonably good I`d not be thinking about spending my money on a costly spaceheater and 5 tons of pellets as a priority.
 I`d be investing in insulation, windows, or a new furnace or whatever I had to do to make it energy efficient first. 
 No matter what fuel you are buying that heat is being wasted if your house is not up to par..

And it was always my belief that a hot air system was cheaper to operate than forced hot water not to mention the ease and cost benefits of adding whole house A/C.


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## cac4 (Nov 19, 2008)

There is no guarantee;  and I think that fha IS the more efficient method of central heat...but its not as efficient as they say.  Its not "less than they say", due to some flaw in my house or my system;  I'm just saying that this is the nature of the beast.  

what I do know is that in the example of my friends, they replaced their  oil-btu's with LESS pellet btu's.


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## itworks (Nov 19, 2008)

cac4 said:
			
		

> There is no guarantee;  and I think that fha IS the more efficient method of central heat...but its not as efficient as they say.  Its not "less than they say", due to some flaw in my house or my system;  I'm just saying that this is the nature of the beast.
> 
> what I do know is that in the example of my friends, they replaced their  oil-btu's with LESS pellet btu's.



If your friends actually replaced "oil-btu's with less pellet btu's" that can only mean they had inefficient oil burners, or they staying fairly close to the pellet stove to stay comfortable.


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## Wet1 (Nov 19, 2008)

cac4 said:
			
		

> Wet1 said:
> 
> 
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> ...



I agree you most certainly have to consider the efficiency of both.  Very seldom can we exactly compare apples to apples, but we can make good rough estimations to try making reasonable decisions.  It sounds like you have a fairly inefficient oil burner so it might be a little cheaper to burn pellets in your case, but I'm not sure you'll be saving as much as you might think.

You also have to look at the big picture.  My guess is when using your stove, you'll probably have warm and cold spots throughout the house that you wouldn't otherwise have with your central heating system.  You'll also probably use more electricity running the stove and fans to move the air (I know I do) vs. what you'd use with your central heating system.  Let's not forget the cost and depreciation of the stove itself as a supplemental heat source.  Then you have the hassle of storing / feeding the pellets throughout the season, which is basically a non-issue with oil.  Oh, don't forget the weekly stove cleaning...  When you add it all up, you MIGHT save a few dollars, but at what cost?  Is it all worth it to POSSIBLY save one or two hundred dollars a year???  Now if you're burning pellets for another reason (other than to save money), that's another story.  

Don't get me wrong, I've been burning pellets since 2000, but when oil or "X" is cheap (like it is today), I'll be the first to tell you burning pellets is sometimes more hassle than it's worth for the few cents you might be saving.

My pellets cost me $205/ton delivered to my house this season.  That's fairly cheap by today's standards.  I would save a few dollars compared to burning oil at today's prices, but maybe not enough to make it worth the hassle.  

OTOH, my NG rates are so low it's almost silly to burn ANY pellets, even at $205/ton.  In oil terms / dollars, the first 30CCF of NG I burn (at 85% efficiency), which is about the equivalent to 22 gal. of oil, cost me about $30/month (that's about $1.36/gal in oil $).  Anything more than this per month cost me an additional $0.53/gal. when convert into oil $.   Hardly makes any sense to light a fire!  But I will continue to burn a little here and there as I like the fire(s).

At the end of the day, when mainstream energy is cheap, there certainly isn't much money to be saved burning pellets when you add up ALL the expenses AND inconveniences... Especially when folks are paying top dollar for pellets.

JMHO.


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## cac4 (Nov 19, 2008)

> If your friends actually replaced “oil-btu’s with less pellet btu’s” that can only mean they had inefficient oil burners, or they staying fairly close to the pellet stove to stay comfortable.



not necessarily to the first, probably yes to the second...but that is part of the benefit.

my furnace is as good as it can be.  (81% at the last tweaking).  But, this type of "system" has lossy ducts, and that isn't factored in to the efficiency calculation.  ducts run through the cold, unfinished basement.  They are insulated, but that doesn't stop the energy tranfer;  it just slows it down.  The pipes to the second floor go through the 5 1/2 inch stud cavities...which makes them "no longer 5 1/2" thick"...they only have about an inch or so of insulation around them...the heat in those pipes is heating the outdoors.  

the heat that a pellet stove produces is 100% dumped into the living space.  So that does constitute a bit of a free lunch, compared to a fha furnace.  

The net result is that you can "stay comfortable" using "less energy".[/quote]


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## gw2kpro (Nov 19, 2008)

I wish NG was an option where I live, I sure miss it.  

NG has never been developed around here (Bangor, ME) for the life of me I can't understand why.  So, you can either heat here with oil, propane, cord wood, pellets, or electricity.  As almost everyone has an oil burner, pellets are a great alternative in this area.


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## cac4 (Nov 19, 2008)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> It sounds like you have a fairly inefficient oil burner ...



why does everybody keep saying this?  my burner is as efficient as it ever was, and works exactly as it was designed.  This SYSTEM's method of delivering heat to the room where I park my butt is what is INEFFICIENT, but it is so by its very design.  



			
				Wet1 said:
			
		

> You also have to look at the big picture.


I AM looking at the big picture, which is that at the end of the year, I'll use less energy to stay comfortable.  



			
				Wet1 said:
			
		

> My guess is when using your stove, you'll probably have warm and cold spots throughout the house that you wouldn't otherwise have with your central heating system.


I don't care;  I'm not sitting in the cold spot.  heating the area where I am NOT, is a waste of energy.  



			
				Wet1 said:
			
		

> You'll also probably use more electricity running the stove and fans to move the air (I know I do) vs. what you'd use with your central heating system.


not so sure...but I have considered it.  in MY house, the furnace has no chimney, and is exhausted by a power vent...which is a bit of a pig, electrically.  so is the furnace itself.  by my calculations, the electricity use will be equal, if I run my stove on high for the entire winter.  which I obviously won't be doing.  We'll only know for sure at the end of the winter, when I'll be able to compare this year's KWH's to last years.  



			
				Wet1 said:
			
		

> Let's not forget the cost and depreciation of the stove itself as a supplemental heat source.  Then you have the hassle of storing / feeding the pellets throughout the season, which is basically a non-issue with oil.  Oh, don't forget the weekly stove cleaning...  When you add it all up, you MIGHT save a few dollars, but at what cost?  Is it all worth it to POSSIBLY save one or two hundred dollars a year???  Now if you're burning pellets for another reason (other than to save money), that's another story.


yeah, its green, and its local.  all gravy.  
yes, I considered all that, and its fine with me.  the extra work, too.  I have more time than money.  The next guy...maybe not so much.  The next guy might also have cheaper NG available;  I do not.  my initial point was to counter the statments that "you will need x tons to replace y gallons", based solely on btu content of the fuel.  There isn't a calculator out there that will factor in all this stuff.  But there are situations where "pellets are cheaper", even when the btu cost is close or equal.


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## mischinski (Nov 19, 2008)

Mark M weighing in here on this most interesting topic...

I am new to pellet heating and learning fast. One concept that I am watching is that what ever the threshold is for pellet btu = oil btu  the oil btus are distributed evenly to the entire domicile. Where with my pellet stove running in the middle of the home those rooms stay nice and toasty but the outer rooms stay pretty cold (oil tstat in center of house0. Yes, additional air movement management is probably needed but that is an add on investment. I will need to put my oil heat on a programmable tstat so that I can have a somewhat warm bathroom in the morning to take a shower, which can then be shut off when we move to the main living area. 

Bottom line is I will still need to burn oil along with my stove in order to attain the same level of comfort in all areas of the house. Still to be determined is will the stove put out enough heat to warm the upstairs to a livable temperature. One question - how much effort have you all veterans put into to distributing your pellet btus to all areas of the house? Does that require more output from your stove?

I may be in lala land here but my calculation is that the proposed pellet btu does not equal oil btu when you consider overall energy required to heat the entire domicile. Let the debate continue.....

Thanks in advance for your feedback. MM


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## itworks (Nov 19, 2008)

Wow this is the very best thread I've ever participated in. Cost aside, I think some of us don't just realize even the most efficient pellet
stove, burning the very best pellets, are just big wonderful SPACE HEATERS.


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## Wet1 (Nov 19, 2008)

cac4 said:
			
		

> why does everybody keep saying this?  my burner is as efficient as it ever was, and works exactly as it was designed.  This SYSTEM's method of delivering heat to the room where I park my butt is what is INEFFICIENT, but it is so by its very design.


Understood.  And using fans to push the air around isn't?  Let's not forget how effective this can be (or lack there of).



> I AM looking at the big picture, which is that at the end of the year, I'll use less energy to stay comfortable.


Assuming you sit next to the stove all winter, that sounds very possible.




> I don't care;  I'm not sitting in the cold spot.  heating the area where I am NOT, is a waste of energy.


Ever think about putting ZONES on your central heating system?  If you only looking to space heat, zones/dampers would allow you do a better job of this.



> Wet1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My boilers are direct vent as well.  They still don't eat nearly as much electricity as my pellet stove(s) and fans do.  The vent only runs a small portion of the day, the pellet stove(s) and fans run non stop.



			
				Wet1 said:
			
		

> Let's not forget the cost and depreciation of the stove itself as a supplemental heat source.  Then you have the hassle of storing / feeding the pellets throughout the season, which is basically a non-issue with oil.  Oh, don't forget the weekly stove cleaning...  When you add it all up, you MIGHT save a few dollars, but at what cost?  Is it all worth it to POSSIBLY save one or two hundred dollars a year???  Now if you're burning pellets for another reason (other than to save money), that's another story.


yeah, its green, and its local.  all gravy.  
yes, I considered all that, and its fine with me.  the extra work, too.  I have more time than money.  The next guy...maybe not so much.  The next guy might also have cheaper NG available;  I do not.  my initial point was to counter the statments that "you will need x tons to replace y gallons", based solely on btu content of the fuel.  There isn't a calculator out there that will factor in all this stuff.  But there are situations where "pellets are cheaper", even when the btu cost is close or equal.[/quote]

We seem to disagree on this, but I think the total energy used (to heat the same space) is fairly close when it comes to total BTU's, and both systems as a whole are reasonably close when it comes to efficiency, assuming you add up everything.  The real significant difference in savings is if you're talking about only doing space heating... which you seem to be doing.  Of course there's savings to be made if you're going to compare heating only one or two rooms vs. heating the entire house (which seems to now be the point of your argument)!  At the end of the day it takes close to the same number of BTU to heat the entire house at one temp, period.  Efficiency does make a difference, but we aren't talking MAJOR differences here, they are both in the same ballpark when everything is tallied up...


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## Wet1 (Nov 19, 2008)

itworks said:
			
		

> Wow this is the very best thread I've ever participated in. Cost aside, I think some of us don't just realize even the most efficient pellet
> stove, burning the very best pellets, are just big wonderful SPACE HEATERS.


BINGO!


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## cac4 (Nov 19, 2008)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> And using fans to push the air around isn't?  Let's not forget how effective this can be (or lack there of).


funny you mention that.  There was also an earlier mention of the benefit of FHA systems is the ability to add central air....I can cool the first floor of my house in the summer with a single window air conditioner.  I think its a 10k btu model.  $150 bucks...I just can't see spending "thousands" for central air, when this works fine.  I don't need any additional fans to move the air around.  maybe use the ceiling fan if its "wicked hot", but generally don't need to.  the first floor of my house is like 1 big room.  I expect the pellet stove to work similarly.  If there were 4 separate rooms, like there are in older houses like mine (picture a standard 24' x 36' cape), this wouldn't work.  
Last year, (07) my highest electric bill was august;  (not surprising).  but the second highest was February.  The furnace is quite piggy with the electrons.  



> Ever think about putting ZONES on your central heating system?  If you only looking to space heat, zones/dampers would allow you do a better job of this.


didn't think it would be practical to have lots of zones w/ fha.  different story w/ water, though.  My uncle just re-did his system, and put in a zone for each room.  
there are dampers, but they don't do the whole job.  they don't block off the heat completely.  



> We seem to disagree on this, but I think the total energy used (to heat the same space) is fairly close when it comes to total BTU's, and both systems as a whole are reasonably close when it comes to efficiency, assuming you add up everything.  The real significant difference in savings is if you're talking about only doing space heating... which you seem to be doing.  Of course there's savings to be made if you're going to compare heating only one or two rooms vs. heating the entire house (which seems to now be the point of your argument)!  At the end of the day it takes close to the same number of BTU to heat the entire house at one temp, period.  Efficiency does make a difference, but we aren't talking MAJOR differences here, they are both in the same ballpark when everything is tallied up...


Central heating is lossy;  the only question is exactly how much.  both moving the heat, and the transfer of heat lose quite a bit.   that'll vary from house to house, too.
but yeah, I'm saying that those are the 2 main sources of savings, which both boil down to "its a space heater".   I bet that the btu to btu comparison would be pretty close, if you were comparing furnace to furnace, or boiler to boiler.


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## trogers (Nov 20, 2008)

Geez, are you all saying that pellet stove are basically just space heaters?  Kidding of course, but think that I have read that about 1000 times on the boards.  I think that I'm in a different spot than most on this thread because I use LP forced hot air.  I have one furnace in the basement that heats the first floor, which is about 1100 sq feet, and then another furnace in the attic that heats the second floor (and eventually the attic).  We installed an insert on the first floor and have used it excusively for heat down there.  I got a LP delivery on Tuesday and did the math of what I have saved over the same period last year and it equalled in 135 gallons less.  At $2.96 per gallon this equals $399.60 saved in LP cost minus the cost of 25 bages of pellets at $5.58 per bag = $139.50 for a net savings of $210.60 from 9/1 through 11/18.  I think that this is a significant savings over 2.5 months.  And, the kicker is that my downstairs is now 71-74 degrees opposed to 67 degrees last year.  My downstairs is about 3/4 open concept and the temp is very even except for the dining room which is  sort of seperate and stays 2 degrees cooler...which is still higher than last year.

I used a conservative straight line assumption and it looks like I'll save at least $1000 bucks this winter.  For that type of savings, I'll lug the bags and clean the stove every couple of weeks.  I'm almost glad I don't have the close cost diiference between oil and pellets to contend with because I like being this warm!

By the way, is this approching the longest thread ever for these forums?  It's a great thread.


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## ces001 (Nov 20, 2008)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> ces001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you were using 700 gal. of oil, you're probably heating a minimum of 1500 sq ft.  I think you'll find that as the temps drop, you'll be using a lot more pellets than you might have been using over the last couple of weeks.  I also think you'll find that it is difficult to evenly spread the heat throughout the house (especially as temps drop) w/o turning your house into a wind tunnel.  When you look at the low cost of oil today, and then factor in the cost of pellets and electricity to operate the stove and distribute the heat, I think you'll find there's little, if any, savings to be had based on today's prices.  The only way you might actually save some money is if you don't heat the remote areas in the house as much and use the stove as the main source of heat in the main living area(s)... this way you are using less total energy to 'heat' the house.[/quote]


I waited 24 hours to gather some more accurate data:
- The living areas of my house total approx. 1300 s.f.
- My average oil purchases over the last 2 years total 650 gals per year.  I know I used 700 gals. in my previous post but that was a "guesstimate".
- My pellet usage over the past 24 hours was one and a half bags with the stove set at medium setting on average (with one increase to max for an hour each morning to bring the temp at the thermostat in the far hallway from 65 degrees to about 70 degrees).
- Yesterday's high temp was 39 degrees and last night the low was 20 degrees, so it was definitely an average winter temperature range for my area.
- My calculations are based on 120 days of heating, from Nov. 15th to March 15th.  I know some years will be mild and some severe so again this is an average.
- The calculations show usage of 120 bags of pellets at 5.37/bag vs. 650 gals. of oil at 2.49/gal which equals a savings of $ 651.90.
Now I'm sure that there will be winters when I use more than 120 bags, but there is plenty of leeway where one can safely say that it still costs me less to heat my house with pellets than it does with oil.  But looking back to the first few posts that I made on this thread, my main reason for switching to pellets was to stop giving my money to the oil companies and to keep my dollars in the United States.  Any savings as well as the warmth and enjoyment that I get from my fireplace insert are an added bonus.  Also, I know that most of the posts here are coming from people with much more first hand experience with this subject than me so I welcome any suggestions.


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## Wet1 (Nov 20, 2008)

Chuck I will agree there are differences in efficiencies comparing most central heating systems and space heaters (stoves).  Although for rough calculations, the differences are mostly negligible for calculating approximately how many BTUs it will take to heat your house for the winter.   Even so, the premise of your argument (efficiency) in post 112 is sound.  But I think the key to your potential signifacant saves burning pellets is in the middle of your post 119...
[Wet1=qoute]My guess is when using your stove, you’ll probably have warm and cold spots throughout the house that you wouldn’t otherwise have with your central heating system.  [/quote]

[cac4=quote]I don’t care; I’m not sitting in the cold spot.  heating the area where I am NOT, is a waste of energy. [/quote]



I hear many crazy claims in this forum about how people are saving so much money with pellets, some valid, some not so much.  This can certainly be the case when you look at how much cheaper pellets are compared to something like propane.   If fuel costs are near equal (such as is the situation with pellets and oil) and efficiencies are in the same ballpark (+/- a few %, and this is generally reasonable to assume), the only way many of these claims can be true is if people are not heating their house to the same overall average temp.  Most of us know, stoves are space heaters and if someone only wants to heat one or two rooms of their home to comfortable levels (while letting the remainder of the home go colder than it would have with central heating), of course there will be substantial savings!  Let's just be clear that this is where the significant portion of the savings resides.  So yes, many of these people can save a lot of money burning pellets.   BUT, they can do the same using other fuels as well!  It doesn't matter if we are talking about central heating (by using zones/dampers) or space heaters, oil, NG, propane, pellets, or electric... the fact is it is far cheaper to heat only a portion of our home to "X" degrees than it is to heat your entire home to the same "X" degrees 

It just drives me insane when I hear claims like the one on the previous page that state they are going to save $900 this year by burning pellets rather than oil.  Possibly, but not because pellets are cheaper than oil.   Maybe this person will save this much, but the average temp in their home certainly won't be anywhere nearly the same because there's is no way 3 tons of pellets will come close to producing the same amount of heat 700 gal. of oil will, regardless of efficiency!  The guy could do the same exact thing by using an oil stove (which would likely be cheaper).  It's not that the pellets are saving him this much money over oil, it's the fact that he's going to be heating a smaller portion of his home and letting the remainder stay at a cooler temp than it previously was.  

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now...


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## itworks (Nov 20, 2008)

I waited 24 hours to gather some more accurate data:
- The living areas of my house total approx. 1300 s.f.
- My average oil purchases over the last 2 years total 650 gals per year.  I know I used 700 gals. in my previous post but that was a "guesstimate".
- My pellet usage over the past 24 hours was one and a half bags with the stove set at medium setting on average (with one increase to max for an hour each morning to bring the temp at the thermostat in the far hallway from 65 degrees to about 70 degrees).
- Yesterday's high temp was 39 degrees and last night the low was 20 degrees, so it was definitely an average winter temperature range for my area.
- My calculations are based on 120 days of heating, from Nov. 15th to March 15th.  I know some years will be mild and some severe so again this is an average.
- The calculations show usage of 120 bags of pellets at 5.37/bag vs. 650 gals. of oil at 2.49/gal which equals a savings of $ 651.90.
Now I'm sure that there will be winters when I use more than 120 bags, but there is plenty of leeway where one can safely say that it still costs me less to heat my house with pellets than it does with oil.  But looking back to the first few posts that I made on this thread, my main reason for switching to pellets was to stop giving my money to the oil companies and to keep my dollars in the United States.  Any savings as well as the warmth and enjoyment that I get from my fireplace insert are an added bonus.  Also, I know that most of the posts here are coming from people with much more first hand experience with this subject than me so I welcome any suggestions.[/quote]

You've defined your heating season from Nov 15 to Mar 15 (120 Days). I too live in New England, and at times we experience mild Falls, and early warmer Springs, but I can't remember not using my heating system (pellet or oil) in Oct at all, and being able to shut it down in mid March.

In making your case that you're saving money heating with pellets in place of oil, I think you should be using current market prices.

Oil is approximately $2.20 per gal and pellets are approximately $6.00 per bag.


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## Wet1 (Nov 20, 2008)

ces001, are you using oil to heat your DHW?  If so, this could explain some of the discrepancy...


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## ces001 (Nov 20, 2008)

itworks said:
			
		

> I waited 24 hours to gather some more accurate data:
> - The living areas of my house total approx. 1300 s.f.
> - My average oil purchases over the last 2 years total 650 gals per year.  I know I used 700 gals. in my previous post but that was a "guesstimate".
> - My pellet usage over the past 24 hours was one and a half bags with the stove set at medium setting on average (with one increase to max for an hour each morning to bring the temp at the thermostat in the far hallway from 65 degrees to about 70 degrees).
> ...



You've defined your heating season from Nov 15 to Mar 15 (120 Days). I too live in New England, and at times we experience mild Falls, and early warmer Springs, but I can't remember not using my heating system (pellet or oil) in Oct at all, and being able to shut it down in mid March.

In making your case that you're saving money heating with pellets in place of oil, I think you should be using current market prices.


I don't know where you buy your pellets, but Lowes, Home Depot, and Wal Mart have pellets for about $ 5.80 a bag.  Also, the dealer where I purchased my stove has pellets for about 5.80 per bag.  Isn't it convenient to use the extremes when trying to prove your point.  Also, the average temp. in my house (68 degrees) is equal to or warmer than it was when I heated with oil.  There are cold spots at the far end where the bed rooms are, but those areas are cold spots when I heat with oil as well so there is no difference there.  Didn't you read the section of my previous thread stating that my thermostat is located in the "far hallway" and that it starts at 65 degrees in the morning and rises to 70 degrees during the day.  Regarding the heating season in the northeast, yes there are days in October when heat is needed, but there are also days in November when it is not needed.  If you read my post, read the entire post, not just those sections that you choose to pick apart.  My previous post listed FACTS not opinions.  And finally,  I WOULD RATHER NOT SPEND MY DOLLARS ON OIL!  This has been my overall point all along, but the naysayers refuse to address it. 

Oil is approximately $2.20 per gal and pellets are approximately $6.00 per bag.[/quote]


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## ces001 (Nov 20, 2008)

ces001 said:
			
		

> itworks said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/quote]

You should be thinking about the long term, not just about the here and now.  Do you really think that oil will stay cheap forever.  Look at history for your answer.  Oil prices will rise again and we will all be hugging our pellet stoves.  I choose to stop buying heating oil forever.  If enough people do the same, it will be a good kick in the pants for the oil companies and the foreign countries that produce the oil.  Regarding pellets, I buy mine in the spring or summer when they are cheaper.  Anyone buying pellets today at $ 6.00 per bag didn't think ahead.


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## cac4 (Nov 20, 2008)

Wet1:  we're not disagreeing on much!  

I agree, an oil stove, if there was such a thing, would be cheaper.  right now.  

but I still think that central heat is more lossy than you think.  

Imagine this:  if I could take my oil furnace, and put it in the middle of my living room...or the center of my first floor area.  (remember: open concept) just have it blow air right into the rooms....then put ducts to the second floor along the ceiling of the first floor...they'd go into the upstairs bedrooms along an inside wall, instead of an outside one....I bet I'd save a ton of oil.  

I heat about 1600sf with 600 gallons of oil...

oil is 2.30, today, by the cheap-cheap guy that advertises in the local paper.  how much do I save?  

well...I don't know.  is that number even valid?  I can't buy oil right now;  my tank is still mostly full of the $5 oil that was stuffed into my tank in May.  was that "last year's" heat?  or this years?  I'm burning it, now...I won't be able to fill it for a while, even if I don't get my stove hooked up.  I can't buy my whole oil supply at once.  Historically, I get 4 deliveries per year.  What will it cost next month?  and the month after that? etc?  we won't know until we get there.  But saying that I could heat my house w/ 600gallons of oil @2.30/gallon isn't a fair statement, at this point.  You could say that I paid 900 bucks for pellets for this year...because I did.  But if you're comparing the price I paid for the fuel on hand, then you have to also allow for the oil I have on hand, too, which cost 800 bucks, and is only about 25% of my typical requirement.  
So you could say, oil would cost me the following:
first 150g: 750
next 450g: @ 2.30 gallon=900
for a total of $1650

vs: 900 for pellets.  I might need more pellets...but by the time I do, they'll almost certainly be way less $$.  

and does anyone really expect that oil will remain at an average price of $2.30 for the whole winter?


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## ces001 (Nov 20, 2008)

cac4 said:
			
		

> Wet1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I AGREE!  You can't just apply a BTU equation to every situation an call it gospel.


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## ces001 (Nov 20, 2008)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> ces001, are you using oil to heat your DHW?  If so, this could explain some of the discrepancy...




Our DHW is heated with propane.


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## sydney1963 (Nov 21, 2008)

$2.11 a gallon and dropping.  

http://www.cashoil.com/


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## barneshilary (Nov 21, 2008)

lets keep burning wood and keep the money from thier GREEDY POCKETS


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## rhag1128 (Nov 21, 2008)

I don't usually chime in on threads with such a a difference in facts based upon home size , efficiency, heating types etc...   There are 2 recurring themes here, 1.  Cost savings/expense of heating with pellets vs oil.  There are a couple factors to remember - let me give you my example:  Center Hall colonial structure - 1802 construction with the original windows and no insulation in walls on half of the house ~1000sq ft. including second floor.- main living area is 1980s construction 1000sqft open floor plan.  My main heat source was oil hot water baseboard heat.  250 gal/month to keep 3 PROGRAMMED zones at 65 degrees, turning 2 zone off durning the day and only on 4 hours /day.  My current cost is 2.50/ gal last year it was $4/gal.  I think my oil cost are elevated over most and for ME the math was very obvious.  I have 2 Pellet stoves running on Low setting buninig ~50# per day to keep the entire house at 69-73F.  So this is an increased comfort and cost savings for ME, which will not translate to your cost savings , or efficinecy or any other comparison you can make about your situation.

Secondly and most importantly - we burn pellets on Principle - what ever that is, not to send money overseas, stiuckin it to the man ie exxon/mobil/shell etc.  I will not go back to oil as main heat if it were $1/ gal because I got screwed the last 3 years and will stick to my principles.  And Oil will go back up.  Cuts in production / Somali Pirates / other factors will drive it up.  Stick to your principles people we are all doing the right thing, even if burning pellets becomes slightly more expensive in the long run over Oil.

Off my soap box now thanks


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## ces001 (Nov 21, 2008)

rhag1128 said:
			
		

> I don't usually chime in on threads with such a a difference in facts based upon home size , efficiency, heating types etc...   There are 2 recurring themes here, 1.  Cost savings/expense of heating with pellets vs oil.  There are a couple factors to remember - let me give you my example:  Center Hall colonial structure - 1802 construction with the original windows and no insulation in walls on half of the house ~1000sq ft. including second floor.- main living area is 1980s construction 1000sqft open floor plan.  My main heat source was oil hot water baseboard heat.  250 gal/month to keep 3 PROGRAMMED zones at 65 degrees, turning 2 zone off durning the day and only on 4 hours /day.  My current cost is 2.50/ gal last year it was $4/gal.  I think my oil cost are elevated over most and for ME the math was very obvious.  I have 2 Pellet stoves running on Low setting buninig ~50# per day to keep the entire house at 69-73F.  So this is an increased comfort and cost savings for ME, which will not translate to your cost savings , or efficinecy or any other comparison you can make about your situation.
> 
> Secondly and most importantly - we burn pellets on Principle - what ever that is, not to send money overseas, stiuckin it to the man ie exxon/mobil/shell etc.  I will not go back to oil as main heat if it were $1/ gal because I got screwed the last 3 years and will stick to my principles.  And Oil will go back up.  Cuts in production / Somali Pirates / other factors will drive it up.  Stick to your principles people we are all doing the right thing, even if burning pellets becomes slightly more expensive in the long run over Oil.
> 
> Off my soap box now thanks




My thoughts exactly!  I don't know about BTU calculations, but I do know that I am sticking it to the oil companies and if I can save a few dollars in the process that is just an added bonus.


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## slls (Nov 21, 2008)

It's low enough now to start burning oil again, when it is gone, it is gone forever, tree's grow every day. I will help get rid of some at a low price.


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## Jabberwocky (Nov 22, 2008)

Funny, the natural gas company is charging the same exact price as last year, screw them.


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## sydney1963 (Nov 22, 2008)

$2.05 now.

http://www.cashoil.com/


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## trogers (Nov 22, 2008)

ces001 said:
			
		

> rhag1128 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have propane at $2.97, so I am saving  a lot by using pellets.  But, I agree with you...it's about principle for me.  It's funny how the threads have changed so drastically over the past few months as oil has gone down.  Back in the summer when the price was sky high most of the people on the baords were talking about buying less oil out of principle, but this had changed now that oil is down in the low $2 range.  I have found this phenomanon before with the "buy American" crowd that rails about my Honda while every stitch of clothing and every appliance they own is made oversees.  I am beginning to realize that a very small portion of the population actually do something about a situation that upsets them.  When oil goes back up...and it will...these same people who are going back to oil after buying a pellet stove to get out of the endless cycle will be telling their friends and co-workers how "they switched to pellets a long time ago to screw the oil companies".  Only, they will still know that they allowed themselves to be manipulated over and over again.

End the cyle...Burn renewable North American fuels!  Oh yeah, and actually be warm (for once)!


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## camdids (Nov 22, 2008)

Yep.Start filling up the SUV's again. Oil cheaper.Lets wait for the next panic. I expect you more matured Hearth guys have seen it all before.
My stove is down at the moment as I'm waiting for a Chimney liner to be installed. yes I'm not as worried about using the Oil for a couple of weeks. But I do know that my stove keeping me warm at 70 is still better than the Oil furnace cranking away.I would much rather be sat here with the Stove burning away than hearing the Furnace firing up> It really just doesnt seem as warm.


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## camdids (Nov 22, 2008)

Yep.Start filling up the SUV's again. Oil cheaper.Lets wait for the next panic. I expect you more matured Hearth guys have seen it all before.
My stove is down at the moment as I'm waiting for a Chimney liner to be installed. yes I'm not as worried about using the Oil for a couple of weeks. But I do know that my stove keeping me warm at 70 is still better than the Oil furnace cranking away.I would much rather be sat here with the Stove burning away than hearing the Furnace firing up> It really just doesnt seem as warm.


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## iceman (Nov 23, 2008)

honestly i burn pellets, wood, nat gas , and now oil and also have some electric heat
i did burn 100 gallons last year (then i got the wood stove)...  2 tons of pellets last (to replace where electric heat is)
nat gas fireplace insert. used ng in 1 room and wood stove to heat my house... i did save a lot of cash vs what i woulda paid to the oil last year.... now that oil is about 2bucks my furnance will run more...because last year i turned it 2 zones off kept the basement around 55....  this year i will keep 3 zones on but at say 68 in case the stove goes out or anything else... it is a pain to bring the house up temp.. so now the tank is full it won't hurt to use it if i have to..  i gotta teach the wife how to use the wood stove but she is afraid of it....


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## rowerwet (Nov 23, 2008)

My neighbor paid 2.50/gal last week for oil, the lowest price I have seen in seacoast NH area is 2.39 cash only 100 gal min. I will stick to my pellets!


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## pinewoodburner (Nov 23, 2008)

Down here in Virginia where not may burn oil anymore, oil cash price on Friday min 100 gallons was $2.59.  I will top off my tank when it is near the low, but the woodstove will be going as much as possible.


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## wilbilt (Nov 24, 2008)

As others have noted, it is about having choices and options.

There are no oil burners here. The options are NG (if available), LPG, electricity, wood, or pellets.
 In my area, there is no NG. I have an LPG forced-air furnace as well as the pellet stove.

I filled the LPG tank a few months ago for about $2.55/gal (250 gallons).  Most of that is still in the tank as backup. LPG is used for DHW and the cooktop/oven.

Using the furnace to heat the home uses 150gal/month easily. A half ton of pellets at $250/ton does the same job with greater comfort. That's $380 vs. $125 for a month of heat.

The choice seems clear to me, although I will light the furnace if necessary. Another thing to consider is that the propane company will not roll a truck to deliver less than 150 gallons; but I can always buy a few bags of pellets anywhere to tide me over until payday.

I had my furnace lit for about two weeks last year. My goal for this year is to not have to light it at all.


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## deadeye316 (Nov 24, 2008)

Up in Amsterdam NY the company I go with oil is $2.99 this other place is $2.55.  No clue why.


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## ablejoy (Nov 24, 2008)

I am with Wilbert
I am hooked up to propane and last year we paid $248.00 per month used 975 gal. We did the math and bought a pellet stove in September and started burning pellets 10/1/08 as of tonight were on the 10th bag. We will be getting snow and rain by Wed. and temps will drop to low 20's. Propane tank is topped off  a cost of $579.00 for 190 gallons. I am hoping to keep the propane furnace off this winter or on very little. Even at a bag a day I will still be ahead on cost of propane and stove will pay back in a couple of years.


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## sydney1963 (Dec 3, 2008)

http://www.cashoil.com/

$1.98 today.


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## Ductape (Dec 3, 2008)

I'm being scammed. How is HHO 50 cents/gallon cheaper just two hours away from me??


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 4, 2008)

sydney1963 said:
			
		

> http://www.cashoil.com/
> 
> $1.98 today.



It is going to be lower than that shortly no matter what OPEC trys, the OPEC folks are in for a rude awakening.  Demand "ain't" going to be increasing for some time.

It is all circular and when they shaft us they get it back with barbs attached.


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## pelletizer (Dec 4, 2008)

Ductape said:
			
		

> I'm being scammed. How is HHO 50 cents/gallon cheaper just two hours away from me??



We in NH are being scammed as it is cheaper in southern Maine and cheaper down around Boston.
We are smack in the middle and paying higher prices. 
Someone told me it was because oil comes in to Boston and Portland but I think oil comes into Portsmouth as well.
I figured at what I bought my pellets for the oil needs to go to $1.60 a gallon to break even. 
I will purchase an other 100 gallons if it hits $200.00 here.


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## Catfishjack (Dec 4, 2008)

A lot of price has to do with what your local distributor paid for it when he bought it 3-4 months ago on his contract. I use Kerosene is is $3.30 per gallon...100 gallons or so is a ton of pellets..pellets I paid $230.00 per ton for..why would I switch?? www.cashoil.com prices are not in my neighborhood nor a lot of others for that matter..Just my 2 cents.........


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## itworks (Dec 4, 2008)

I already did. Filled my tank @$2.00 per gal. Cleaned my pellet stove , and told him to enjoy his vacation.
My personal mantra is I burn pellets when I can realize at least a 20% savings vs using HHO. At $2.00 per gal, that equates to
a ton of pellets(delivered) at $188.00.

It's great having choices!


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## kenzmadie (Dec 4, 2008)

I don't know.....just got fuel delivered today...Used 42 gallons since last month (I have radiant floor heating in basement and garage that I keep on very low and have oil hot water).  Last year the # of gallons in the same month was 128, and it's been a lot colder here the past month than it was last year at this time.  I'm definitely using less fuel oil.  I might be dead by the time I actually recoup my investment but at least I'll be toasty in the meantime.


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## Bushbuck (Dec 4, 2008)

Not going to happen here, I am burning pellets for the year reguardless of the cost of oil. But I am hoping that all these pellet users that stop burning there pellets this winter and up needing cash in the spring, list there tons of pellets for sale around 125 per ton when the market changes.
 Major pellet pig plans for next year...


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## itworks (Dec 4, 2008)

Bushbuck said:
			
		

> Not going to happen here, I am burning pellets for the year reguardless of the cost of oil. But I am hoping that all these pellet users that stop burning there pellets this winter and up needing cash in the spring, list there tons of pellets for sale around 125 per ton when the market changes.
> Major pellet pig plans for next year...



Gee, I thought we're all friends.


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## Bushbuck (Dec 4, 2008)

itworks said:
			
		

> Bushbuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



we are, I am sure I am not the only pellet pig on this site...


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## suzannegale (Dec 4, 2008)

I finally got my stove installed and have been reaping the benefits of increased warmth throughout the house. One thing that is interesting . . . last year, the oil was filling my tank every 3 weeks to the initial tune of $650, when the heat was set at 65. I lowered it to 63 and it went down, but not enough. I lowered the heat to 61 and it went down further, though still delivered every 3 weeks. Lowered it down to 59 and got to ~$400/3 weeks.

Now, we've had the pellet stove running for 2 days and have been using oil. They last got a payment from me in late October - I still have the oil temp set to fire up at 50 degrees. It's been over a month and we still have 1/2 tank left. I saved money by being cheap and telling the kids to put on sweaters. Now that  the pellet stove is in, we use way less oil.

I say, fill up the oil now while it's cheap. We'll have that, just in case, while our pellet stove burns bright. Saving money in the long run. By the time we need oil again, the prices will have risen and the pellet stove will be making the oil fill less and less necessary. Sticking with pellets, even though we got screwed and bought 6 tons of Pennington'a from last year. Wow. Way inconsisent and it jams easily. Regardless, less oil is being used and we are toasty warm in a way we weren't last year using oil, due to our setup.


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## strangemainer (Dec 4, 2008)

Im really happy oil is down for the people who have no choice in these tough times.
BUT I will never go back to oil no matter how cheap it is.

My 55-SHP-22 englander will heat my entire 1800 sq foot house nice and toasty. I plan on installing an electric water heater soon, then the oil furnace will just be for emergencies. I'll fill it up cheap, and sit on it.


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## iceman (Dec 4, 2008)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> cac4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




i agree with you.. many people don't realize they ARE comparing apples to oranges... 
how much money would you save by turning your furnacr temp up/down.. having different zones or simply shutting off rooms and letting the heat from another heat it (even though it will be cooler)
this is what pellet and wood stoves do in medium to large houses.. they heat an area and that heat will move around but usually is never the same temp throughout i have up to a 10 degree difference at the furthest point from my stove.. which is ok... but thats running 24/7  and working on my wood stove (putting in wood)   my pellet stove which heats a much smaller area is the same ..
however i can live with this to save money.....but i have a great furnace that runs between 88-93 % ...  with a zoned out house!!
if oil goes to 2 or less it might be cheaper for me to burn.....but don't tell the wife.... (got a sjrtload of wood in the yard)
bottom line is we should continue to do what we do to make prices go down...(wood, pellet burners etc)


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## akakii (Dec 4, 2008)

I've got a garage full of pellets at $250/ton and a tank full of oil at $1.98/gal.  I'm not planning on changing anything.  I heat with pellets and use oil for backup and for my hot water.  The $1,000 I spent on pellets went into the pockets of Maine producers and middle men.  The $500 I spent on oil mostly went into the pockets of oil traders and OPEC producers.  Sure, I burn pellets to save money but I feel just as strongly about doing it to support the local economy and to reduce dependence on foreign oil.


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## Lobstah (Dec 4, 2008)

"The $500 I spent on oil mostly went into the pockets of oil traders and OPEC producers"

Actually, that's not quite true.  Canada is the #1 source for imported oil, and by quite a large margin.  So if you go with importing around 0 of our oil(not sure of the number anymore), only a much smaller percentage comes from OPEC.

I just ordered an oil fill online and my price is $2.17/gal in central Ma.  My pellets were $340/ton.  Oil is much cheaper, but as everyone has noted, pellets are a different kind of heat.  We used wood for 30yrs.  Great coming in from outside and having a nice warm spot where you can immediately get warm.

Jim


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## joe_pinehill (Dec 5, 2008)

I went through my LP bills again, on average for the past 3 years we've burned 1200 gallons of propane.  The current rate is 2.35 per gallon. So it would cost 2800 a year in round numbers.  I can heat my house with 3 tons of pellets, so call it around $900.  With a couple hundred gallons of LP for hot water, I think Im still ahead about $1000 a year.  Plus intangibles like coziness, the house is warmer, its more cozi and fun to look at the pellets burning.


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## lessoil (Dec 6, 2008)

joe_pinehill said:
			
		

> I went through my LP bills again, on average for the past 3 years we've burned 1200 gallons of propane.  The current rate is 2.35 per gallon. So it would cost 2800 a year in round numbers.  I can heat my house with 3 tons of pellets, so call it around $900.  With a couple hundred gallons of LP for hot water, I think Im still ahead about $1000 a year.  Plus intangibles like coziness, the house is warmer, its more cozi and fun to look at the pellets burning.



Yes, I agree!
So far it looks like we may be able to heat with 3 tons also. (We bought 4)
24' X 32' Cape is quite small.
We burned about 900 gal/yr and at today's price of $2.60 that's $2340!!
We paid $314/ton delivered. So that would be $942 plus oil for hot water.
There is no way that we will spend ($2340-$942=*$1398*) to heat water



> Plus intangibles like coziness, the house is warmer, its more cozi and fun to look at the pellets burning.



I am warmer for sure!!


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## trogers (Dec 6, 2008)

Lobstah said:
			
		

> "The $500 I spent on oil mostly went into the pockets of oil traders and OPEC producers"
> 
> Actually, that's not quite true. Canada is the #1 source for imported oil, and by quite a large margin. So if you go with importing around 0 of our oil(not sure of the number anymore), only a much smaller percentage comes from OPEC.
> 
> ...



Yes, it is true that we get most of oil from our friends from the north, Canada. The pricing decisions that OPEC makes has a significant effect on the world crude futures, and more specifically it has an impact on the prices that we pay from Canada. When OPEC reduces production to artificially prop up crude prices, the lack of supply effects the demand price for the available crude from other producers, like Canada. So, while his money may not have gone into the pockets of the OPEC countries...the OPEC countries played a large part in the inflated price that he paid. I bought Canadian pellets, but at least the prices weren't impacted by Saudi Arabia. Also, while pellets are higher than they have been historically, there is no Pellet Consortium that know of that works behind the scene to control prices. The demand for pellets will normalize soon and prices will go down from where they now are. I think that we can expect a lot more pricing volatility in the oil markets than we'll see in the pellet industry over the next few years.


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## rowerwet (Dec 7, 2008)

the difference in HHO price for NH is because there is no oil delivery ports, farms, or tanks the way there in Boston and Portland. 
drive up I-295 in Portland, ME and just as you pass the airport look over to the other side and see the big tank farms, you may also see a tanker or two. If you are driving to Logan airport in Boston look off to your right you will see some of the tank farms that your oil comes from. Or even more instructive take a boat up Chelsea Creek (just to the east of the Tobin Bridge), the creek is just a road for oil tankers and all you can see is tank farms. The extra price you are paying for oil is because they don't unload HHO in Portsmouth, NH. My uncle owned a local oil company in Ashby, MA he couldn't give as good of a price on oil because it had to be trucked in from Boston 10,000 gal at a time. If a company can just fill up the delivery truck at the tank farm there is one way to save you money. So if you want cheaper oil in seacoast NH start a petition to put in a HHO port in Newington, NH.


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## lass442 (Dec 7, 2008)

DOBS said:
			
		

> My forced hot water system never produced the comfort level I'm getting out of the XXV. I did a quick test last night just to be sure. After putting down a couple of Miller Lites sitting in front of the oil furnace, and a couple more in front of the pellet stove... although it was a tough decision, the pellet stove won.  :coolsmile: I bought the 5 tons and I plan to enjoy every one of them this season regardless of oil price. If next years HHO pre-buy price competes with pellets, I might consider splitting the difference. But I like the effects of the stove (heat and ambiance) way too much to go without it.



"baby, Come back... you can blame it all on me, I was wrong, and I just can't live without you!"= OPEC


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## strangemainer (Dec 8, 2008)

How low do ya'll think oil will go? Heard on the news the other day Light Sweet Crude 
could slide all the way to $25 a barrel.
But remember, they said it would hit $200.


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## el gordo (Dec 8, 2008)

i could really care less. if oil does drop to like $1.00 a gallon, i'll buy a bunch.lol. if it goes up i'll stick with wood pellets, it's all about having choices for me now.


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## Lobstah (Dec 8, 2008)

"...the OPEC countries played a large part in the inflated price that he paid."

Actually, the recent spike in oil prices had little or nothing to do with OPEC...they just went along for the ride.  Remember, there were no headlines saying "OPEN RAISES PRICES...AGAIN)  Oil speculators caused the spike by holding contracts instead of reselling them, thereby "locking up" a significant part of the supply and driving the price up.  Everyone who produced oil benefited from that.  When the economy crashed, oil speculators were OUT of the market, because they didn't want to get take huge losses...they knew that demand was going to fall, and the future was uncertain, at best.

It's interesting that pellet prices haven't fallen at all in my area at all (still $345/ton + $40del), despite oil prices having dropped in half, from $4.25/gal to $2.17  This is exactly the type of pricing behavior that has had everyone calling for gouging investigations and windfall taxes on oil companies.

I'm not defending the oil companies, I just don't like revisionist history 

The basic idea though is yes...it's great to have choices.  

Jim


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## 90durham (Dec 8, 2008)

If oil was $2.00 a US gallon up here I would install another tank and fill it ASAP, we are still at about $2.80 to $3.00 in US dollars for a US gallon given rough estimate on conversion from metric and currency exchange. My reason for not running the furnace is that over half of the oil in my tank cost me almost $4.50 US for a US gallon. That last oil delivery in the spring was what sent me looking for an alternative this summer.
I have no sympathy for any local oil suppliers in our area, I know where they live and will never be able to enjoy or afford the life style they lead(huge homes/ sleds/ 4 wheelers/ F350's/ Escalades). These are the folks that did auto fills on many in September on July/ Aug contracts at over $5.00 a gallon. 
I don't think I'll see the number of for sale sign's on their lawn's compared in relation to the massive job loss in manufacturing.
Simply put I will use as little oil as possible based on the screwing we have been taking the last few years from my government, big oil and the fund managers that thrived off of a system that allowed this to occur.


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## rhag1128 (Dec 8, 2008)

Don Cherry is King!

I agree with you durham, every bag I dump into the hopper makes me feel like I'm stickin it back to the oil supplier.  
My last oil fill was late september, still have half a tank.  I'll make it thru January before I need another fill and at that time HHO will be $1.50/gal
I just looked at my utility bill and for November I saved ~$800 form Electric and Oil over last year in one month, Oh - I did burn 25 bags and kept the house at 72F instead of 60F last year too.


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## Wet1 (Dec 8, 2008)

rhag1128 said:
			
		

> My last oil fill was late september, still have half a tank.  I'll make it thru January before I need another fill and at that time HHO will be $1.50/gal
> I just looked at my utility bill and for November I saved ~$800 form Electric and Oil over last year in one month, Oh - I did burn 25 bags and kept the house at 72F instead of 60F last year too.


Another amazing testimonial...


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## webbie (Dec 8, 2008)

How can I convince people that sending me money would be sticking it to the oil man?
 %-P 

Well, it would. Because I help people burn more wood and pellets, etc. - better, so that sticks it to the man much better than just dumping a little bag of pellets in your machine.

If you REALLY REALLY want to stick it to the man, with no hernia or dust, simply send large paypal amounts to webmaster@hearth.com


thanks, all.


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## rayttt (Dec 8, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> How can I convince people that sending me money would be sticking it to the oil man?
> %-P
> 
> Well, it would. Because I help people burn more wood and pellets, etc. - better, so that sticks it to the man much better than just dumping a little bag of pellets in your machine.
> ...



First payment sent!


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## webbie (Dec 8, 2008)

Great....now notice is said "large paypal amounts"........

 :coolgrin:


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## rayttt (Dec 8, 2008)

Large is a relative term and your no relative!


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## Lobstah (Dec 8, 2008)

rayttt said:
			
		

> Large is a relative term and your no relative!




Ok...that right there's funny, I don't care who you are...

Jim


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## sydney1963 (Dec 9, 2008)

$1.89 today.

http://www.cashoil.com/


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## pelletizer (Dec 9, 2008)

Why is it still hovering around $240.00 in NH ? It is cheaper north and south of NH.


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## DiggerJim (Dec 9, 2008)

Lobstah said:
			
		

> It's interesting that pellet prices haven't fallen at all in my area at all (still $345/ton + $40del), despite oil prices having dropped in half, from $4.25/gal to $2.17  This is exactly the type of pricing behavior that has had everyone calling for gouging investigations and windfall taxes on oil companies.
> 
> I'm not defending the oil companies, I just don't like revisionist history


Speaking of windfall  profits, why are there no investigations, calls to arms, umbrage & uproar about UPS, Fedex, Airlines and anyone else who tacked on a "fuel surcharge" earlier this summer and are still charging it even though prices are at 5 year lows? Why is my congressman not vowing to get to the bottom of UPS' patently unfair pricing strategy? It seems easy to bash the big faceless oil companies when prices are rising but not so easy to bash the guy in his brown shorts or that airline that hauls our congressman's ass back & forth between home state & Washington.


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## slheinlein (Dec 9, 2008)

pelletizer said:
			
		

> Why is it still hovering around $240.00 in NH ? It is cheaper north and south of NH.



What is $240.00 in NH?


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## Wet1 (Dec 9, 2008)

DiggerJim said:
			
		

> Lobstah said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very good point... I asked a UPS driver the same thing yesterday and I was told "I don't have anything to do with pricing, but I know our prices have come down".  Yeah right, sure they've come down.


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## kt1i (Dec 9, 2008)

I bought my pellets last June for $270/ton delivered. Heating oil from my dealer now $2.40/ gal. I am still slightly ahead with pellets according to my calculator.  The price for pellets will surely have to drop next year to stay competitive. 8-/


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## Lobstah (Dec 9, 2008)

They'll have to drop before that at most places, especially big box stores like HD and Lowes.  They make money on inventory turn.  Even if they have to move that inventory at a loss to make room for cheaper inventory to come in, they have to move it.  

Jim


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## pelletizer (Dec 10, 2008)

OOPS Sorry $2.40 /gallon.


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## sydney1963 (Dec 20, 2008)

Oil per barrel today $33.87

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/energyprices.html

http://www.cashoil.com/

Why am I still buying gas at $1.73 a gallon?

Why am I still buying HHO at $1.85 a gallon?

I haven't seen a whole lot of price decline over the past couple of days, have you?


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## joe_pinehill (Dec 20, 2008)

sydney1963 said:
			
		

> Oil per barrel today $33.87
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/energyprices.html
> 
> ...



We are around 1.50 in West/Central NJ.
you can find the NY Mercantile at this site:

http://www.nymex.com/lsco_fut_pso.aspx

Propane is now at 1.90 locally, almost break even with pellets.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 20, 2008)

Those per barrel prices you are quoting are for January delivery, the last I checked it is still December.


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## Lobstah (Dec 20, 2008)

Talked to somone in Houston this morning...said they filled their car up for $1.29/gal 

I don't even remember that price, but it was a while ago here in Ma.

Jim


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## Wet1 (Dec 20, 2008)

I sure am glad I converted over to NG this summer (which is now a lot more expensive)  :throws brick at self:


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## Lobstah (Dec 20, 2008)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> I sure am glad I converted over to NG this summer (which is now a lot more expensive)  :throws brick at self:



Funny how many new pellet burners are feeling the same way ;*)

Jim


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## jeff6443 (Dec 20, 2008)

I have natural gas hot air   never got the house warm  . With my wood stove my home is toasty  warm . I scroung so my wood if free
 le me know when gas get there we ill talk South Jersey Gas .


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## tubbster (Dec 20, 2008)

DiggerJim said:
			
		

> Lobstah said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ummm. Because UPS and FedEx are companies that are not part of the govt, and can therefore charge whatever they want. If you don't like it, ship with someone else?


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## drizler (Dec 20, 2008)

tubbster said:
			
		

> DiggerJim said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think its called playing catchup.    They sucked up a lot with the fuel going up for the last 4 years so now its time to get some of it back.   I know Bernie Sanders is after the gas and oil folks in VT because they have been coming down so slow in price.    Hell Fuel oil here in Northern NY is still 2.39 at the cheapest you can get.   That's what I like the most about the Northcountry, you don't have to worry about foreplay.   We get it steadily from every direction and never even get granted a reach around.


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## drizler (Dec 20, 2008)

tubbster said:
			
		

> DiggerJim said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think its called playing catchup.    They sucked up a lot with the fuel going up for the last 4 years so now its time to get some of it back.   I know Bernie Sanders is after the gas and oil folks in VT because they have been coming down so slow in price.    Hell Fuel oil here in Northern NY is still 2.39 at the cheapest you can get.   That's what I like the most about the Northcountry, you don't have to worry about foreplay.   We get it steadily from every direction and never even get the common courtesy of a reach around.


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## dbjc364 (Dec 25, 2008)

Ok- I did the math- 360 gals.,basing it on the price I just paid for 100 gals. of oil @  $1.92-got a discount from brother. And that probaly wont happen ever again.The pellets were $645 for the 3 ton,the oil was $691.20. The gas for the truck to go get it. Nothing in savings-based on 360 gals.,But- at the same time there are other considerations to keep in mind, and I feel they tip the scale in favor of pellets.1. We like keeping the money more local at home. 2. The heat from the pellets far outweighs the heat from the furnace registers,so toasty,as we are more zoned in and can also enjoy the flame. My butt gets sore after a fashion from sitting on top of the registers.Us and just about everyone who comes in, comments on the heat and how nice it feels.3. We know the price is definitely not going to stay low-once it goes up-it'll go back to killing our budget-and it'll take a snails pace in remodeling this house.4. There is a savings in the electric bill from not running the oil furnace so much-even with the stove going 24 hr a day.This year,there actually was a savings only because we use around 500 plus gallons in reality-and what we paid for the original price of the first 100 gals @ $3.00.Anyways this year cost us a total of $1300.00,compared to last years price before the pellet stove install, of $2000.00 trying to stay warm at overinflated oil prices. We are enjoying the stove alot, even with the additional maintenence,and would like another installed in the dining room,as long as we could sell our propane "Lil' Hammer" for a reasonable price. It simply means we're choosing to switch our fuel source. We now have a small generator to run the stove just in case of power failure. 5. I can run the stove anytime of year- if its just a chilly period-like a rainy day,without overheating the whole house. So I got to say that zone heating for us is preferred over registers.6. I think its a bit cleaner on the woodwork too,other than the floor around the stove where I usually make a mess.I see more dust fly up from the registers on a sunny day-even though I vac them out. So I think the pellets won out...


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## Galroc (Jan 5, 2009)

Last  night, I switched from using pellets to using Oil and turned my furnace on to heat my house.

Pellets are $300/ton in central mass. Oil is $2.14/gallon. 

I use about 130 gallons to heat my house/month which equals $278.20. 







From looking at the above graph, oil will continue to drop in price. 

If pellets drop to $200/ton, I will switch back, but I don't see that happening until the Spring.

My big mistake last year was not stocking up on pellets in the Spring. I tried to buy them at Home Depot last April but they were out of stock. I should have had them delivered. This Spring, I will stock up at least 4 tons if Pellets are closer to $200/ton.

Edited to add...  I switched back after only a few days....burning pellets again!


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## dbjc364 (Jan 5, 2009)

the ecomony is going to rebound just as sure as the sun comes up.It always does. The housing market will get straightened out-etc.,I just heard this morning that stock prices went up a smidge for oil,,it may take some time-but it will go back up. we're choosing to yank out our furnace and tank this summer. we're all done messing around with oil-and will have other choices and I dont care how low it goes-or how long it stays there...which I know wont be for long.


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## sydney1963 (Jan 6, 2009)

$1.99 today and rising. 

http://www.cashoil.com/


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## Galroc (Jan 6, 2009)

My dealer dropped from 2.14 to 2.09 today


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## sydney1963 (Jan 7, 2009)

$2.05 today


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## timalabim (Jan 7, 2009)

My HHO dealer has gone up from $2.19 last week to $2.29 today


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## Xena (Jan 7, 2009)

Mine went from 2.02 last week to 
2.18 today.


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## Raven20 (Jan 7, 2009)

2.38  in B -more....


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## vt657 (Jan 7, 2009)

$2.62 today in Central Vermont.


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## Raven20 (Jan 7, 2009)

VT.....How do you like your Santa Fe?.....Any problems to speak of?


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## vt657 (Jan 7, 2009)

Have had my Santa Fe  since mid November and have had no problems at all.  Knock on wood.  

The only thing I do to it besides add pellets is dump the burn pot every evening and give it a good cleaning once a week.


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## Raven20 (Jan 7, 2009)

I've had mine about a week.....So far so good.....


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## sydney1963 (Jan 9, 2009)

$2.09 today

http://www.cashoil.com/


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## Xena (Jan 9, 2009)

$2.28 here and rising faster than the
Mississippi during flood season.


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## mick5726 (Jan 10, 2009)

Just filled up today, $2.25/gal. Burned 9gal since 1st Dec.


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## Ladderlieu (Jan 10, 2009)

A little while ago my oil dealer for 20+ years sent me a "reminder letter" that said they missed me!  The feeling wasn't mutual, of course...  Long story short, they offered to let me get oil for $2.49 a gallon, down from their usual $2.69 a gallon if I ordered a minimum of 150 gallons.  I wonder if they get many folks to take them up on their special offer? I can call a couple oil dealers in the Gardner MA area and pay cash and get it delivered for $2.09 a gallon (unless it went up this week).  How can there be a 60 cents per gallon difference from 2 oil dealers 45 minutes apart?  
Might be changing oil dealers just long enough to fill the tank for those "just in case" moments when I might (gasp) run out of pellets!


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## OU812 (Jan 11, 2009)

I am seeing the price of propane rise in California as well.  It has gone up about 30 cents over the last few weeks.  I still think that pellets at $5.85 a bag are hard to beat as far as heating your home goes.


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## dbjc364 (Jan 11, 2009)

My daughter just had 100 gallons put in at $2.36 a gal. here in central maine.Thats all they have for heat-which is crazy. I've been talking to her about this for 3 years-to have a back-up source.They've lost power 3 times for short periods so far this winter-so ,,no heat.A house can cool down pretty fast in just 2-3 hrs...


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## Catfishjack (Jan 11, 2009)

We burn Kerosene..it is now down a bit from the $4.79 a gallon we paid last year..it's currently $3.11 per gallon. I bought 5 ton of pellets at $230.00 a ton..Pellets are a no 
brainer for me...I can only hope to get a similar price this spring/summer and become a PELLET PIG...


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