# Defiant NC Everburn Doesn't engage



## swestall (Nov 11, 2007)

I had a nice Defiant CAT stove and thought, upgrade to the latest product, so I got a Defiant NC. My old CAT stove purred along for years with no creosote at all. I cleaned the flue prior to installing the NC version and it had no build up in it. I've burned the NC version for about two weeks and today I went up to take a look, CREOSOTE is forming at the top of the chimney, nice sticky black just like you don't want. I'm able to get the temp on the stove pipe three feet up the pipe up to 600 even more if I wanted to, but it seems like when I close the damper to get the everburn to fire off, FORGET IT! Pretty upset, yes. All this money for the latest VC product and there's a problem. I know there are a few of you with this same stove and wonder what you've run into. I read that thread about blocking coals in front of the rear chute, etc. I'm pretty much doing all that but no magic "rumble". I don't really seem to be getting the secondary burn at all, when I engage the fire dwindles, I start getting smoke out the stack, etc. Has anyone had this problem or know of a solution. Is it possible that there is a problem with the secondary air supply? From what I can see the secondary air is supposed to come in through the holes in the ceramic foot. Who has some insight here? I'm ready to place this thing in the trash pile. Steve.


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## webbie (Nov 11, 2007)

How much wood have you burned in it? 

How much creosote? 

First impressions - if you are getting 600 degrees - or anything even close at that height up the stack, then you are getting a lot of secondary burn.  So I would not consider this as black or white, rather somewhere in the gray area. Get the stove up to temp and look at the top of the chimney. Are you getting brown or other smoke? 

Also, any new stove has a learning curve. Add that to the "startup" time of year and certainly some creosote is possible with any stove. I have warned here (til I was blue in the face) that those "numbers" of under one gram per hour do not mean anything in the real world. Older stoves burn at 30-50 grams per hour, newer ones probably average 10x as clean (3-5+ grams/hour) - and that is when everything is running correctly. It is certainly possible that your stove may be running at 5 or even 10 grams per hour, which could definitely result in some creosote..

Other than mechanical problems, which I doubt, I would suggest using the stove for a couple more weeks and trying to "become one" with it....


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## swestall (Nov 11, 2007)

I just had the stack temp at 600 and the griddle was also the same. I closed the damper to engage the secondary burn and the stack temp dropped to just under 300 (condor magnetic thermometer) three feet up pipe. The smoke is more greyish than brown. Stove top thermometer is 550. I know what you mean about the learning curve, no problem with that, just concerned about getting a glaze and having to deal with it.


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## webbie (Nov 11, 2007)

It may be that the glaze is unavoidable for a couple reasons. You mentioned that you cleaned the pipe, so the smoke had a nice shiny (and cold up top) surface to settle on. Even if it is 5 or 10X less than an older stove, it still is something. What I am saying is that once your pipe gets some dust and fly-ash in it, this glaze is less likely to form. 

You didn't mention the chimney type (class A, fireplace liner, etc.), but if it is a liner of an existing chimney it would help to insulated the top area. Also, I would not worry too much about a little glaze like this in one section. It would be another thing if the glaze started at the bottom and was all the way up.

If it were mine I would probably use a little of the anti-creosote stuff on the wood (or firebox, according to the directions), and then check it in 3 or 4 weeks.


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## swestall (Nov 11, 2007)

Thanks, that is good advice. I'll start using some anticreosote compound weekly. Next warm spell, I'll see how far down it goes, smokey now. It is actually sticky to the touch. The reason I changed was the expense of replacing the CAT every few years but that could be dwarfed by replacing the stove. If I can figure out how to find that "sweet spot" others talk about then I should be OK, I guess. So I guess it remains to be seen, will it EVERBURN properly. The Chimney is 8x10 masonary with clay liner. Rise is 16" and it goes up through the center of the house with only the top 4 feet exposed to the outside. We had both the Encore and Defiant CAT versions with no build up at all, just lots of carbon in the cleanout below. Thanks for the settling advice: I'll work with it and see what happens for a while. This chimney does produce better draft when it gets cold outside. We use the stove for primary heat during the cold season. Use about 3.5 to 4 cords a year. Have burned for about 30 years now, never had anything this touchy; can't wait till I figure out how to produce that "rumble" and get rid of the smoke.


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## tradergordo (Nov 12, 2007)

swestall said:
			
		

> Thanks, that is good advice. I'll start using some anticreosote compound weekly. Next warm spell, I'll see how far down it goes, smokey now. It is actually sticky to the touch. The reason I changed was the expense of replacing the CAT every few years but that could be dwarfed by replacing the stove. If I can figure out how to find that "sweet spot" others talk about then I should be OK, I guess. So I guess it remains to be seen, will it EVERBURN properly. The Chimney is 8x10 masonary with clay liner. Rise is 16" and it goes up through the center of the house with only the top 4 feet exposed to the outside. We had both the Encore and Defiant CAT versions with no build up at all, just lots of carbon in the cleanout below. Thanks for the settling advice: I'll work with it and see what happens for a while. This chimney does produce better draft when it gets cold outside. We use the stove for primary heat during the cold season. Use about 3.5 to 4 cords a year. Have burned for about 30 years now, never had anything this touchy; can't wait till I figure out how to produce that "rumble" and get rid of the smoke.



Welcome to the world of everburn    Don't know if you've followed the recent related discussion or the older discussion on everburn, those threads are:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/10201/P60/
and
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/4188/

My experience is with the Dutchwest, no idea how this stove compares with the Defiant.  But in general I don't think "everburn" works as well as burn tubes on top for secondary combustion (or using a catalyst for that matter).  Many forum members have posted about problems they have had with the everburn stoves including people like you who have been burning various stoves for decades. NOT A SINGLE OWNER has posted that they have been able to achieve consistent clean burns. Some of us have spent 1-2 years trying everything we can possibly think of to improve performance, while others reported that they just threw in the towel and replaced the stove with a different model. The VC techs have been no help, the dealers have been no help.

Now having said that, I still think there is something else going on with your stove.  You don't seem to be achieving secondary combustion AT ALL, when for most of us we at least get good secondary combustion SOMETIMES.  Let me say this, you probably need to get it much hotter than you think you do.  I don't know how an external flue temp should compare to an interal, all I know is that I RARELY achieve good results when the INTERNAL flue temp (measured about 14 inches above the stove) is less than 1000 F before dampering down.  You are going to need a huge red hot coal bed (2 inches thick covering most of the bottom of the stove according to my manual) to get a good secondary burn - this can sometimes mean 2-3 loads of wood before you get the conditions you need for everburning.  Pushing the red hot coals toward the back can help.  All this is a littler easier when you are doing serious 24/7 burning instead of occasional evening burns for example.

Have you watched my everburn demo video?  Good luck, and let us know if you figure out something that works consistently...


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## swestall (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks for the input, I did read those threads, but I went back and re-read them. I will watch your video later when I'm home. (can't get to video here). I think my problem is I am looking for a smoke free burn. (like the advertising says you get) but I am use to a CAT version of this stove. I had no problem with the CAT stove other than that you had to replace the CAT once in a while. BOY do I wish I'd done that rather than getting this 580 pound monster in my house that is producing creosote in my previously clean chimney! With your help and that of others who have used the Everburn, I'll figure it out and get it to work. I am a 24/7 burner so we'll see. My Defiant CAT stove would get 3-4 inches of coals in it and burn for 12-14 hours at a time. It also took another 8-10 hours to burn the coals down so I could add more wood. The chimney was clean, all the time. It burned HOT, no problem. Vermont Castings/CFM has something to learn here-you can ruin a reputation without much effort and the bad rap you get can overflow to all your products if you don't do some DAMMAGE CONTROL; I think VC should do some dammage control here and provide instructions or a product recall. Having to stand over a stove and watch it for hours on end,  to get it to work as designed is unacceptable. In my house, we need the nice look and I admit that's what I've been buying VC for 25+ years to get. As pointed out by many experts on this site, there are (fortunately) now some good companies producing very attractive, non cat, models that actually work without lots of smoke and the associated creosote. I still have the CAT version and I am going to rebuild it because it works. Then I'm going to sell this NC and put the money towards one of those products from another good company in the future. Congratulations Vermont Castings, one more long term customer down the drain!


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## swestall (Nov 12, 2007)

OH Yeah, one more thing: this is a very effective stove: my wife says it make me so HOT that we don't need to burn much wood anymore! LOL


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## Hogwildz (Nov 12, 2007)

I don't know much about a Defiant, but doesn't it call for a 6" stack? 8" x 10" seems a bit large. Possibly not getting the draft of the 6" and causing exhaust to linger and collect wile slowly drafting rather than go up and out more  with a stronger draft. Just a thought.


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## kwburn (Nov 12, 2007)

steve.  sorry for the frustrations you are having with the new stove.  
i actually just fixed up a used defiant encore with a nice paint job and a new cat and will be installing it next week.  the fact that you enjoyed your previous stove so much makes me feel better about putting it into service.

but again, sorry for your troubles.  you don't deserve that and i hope you figure it out!


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## tradergordo (Nov 12, 2007)

swestall said:
			
		

> Thanks for the input, I did read those threads, but I went back and re-read them. I will watch your video later when I'm home. (can't get to video here). I think my problem is I am looking for a smoke free burn. (like the advertising says you get) but I am use to a CAT version of this stove. I had no problem with the CAT stove other than that you had to replace the CAT once in a while.



Well I can say this - when everburn is actually working, you will have your smoke free burns.  Unfortunately, based on user experiences posted thus far, you won't be "everburning" nearly as often (as a percentage of your total burn time) compared to your CAT stove or most other modern clean burning stoves.  But I hope you do figure it out and share with the rest of us...

As for rebuilding your old cat stove - Elk is always recommending this place for aftermarket combustors that perform even better than the ones that come with the cat stoves:
http://www.stovecombustors.com/ourcatalog.html
Although I'm not sure they are still in business?  Buy links don't seem to work right now for me.  Supposedly these can last for 8-10 years, so the cost might only be about $10/year.  That seems reasonable to me for easy smoke free burns. Then again a lot of people complain about cat stoves so I don't know who to believe.


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## kwburn (Nov 12, 2007)

that's where i got my replacement combustor.  it was on special for $120 at the time but $140 is still the cheapest you will find.  haven't used it yet to comment on performance.
i just tried the links to buy and they didn't work for me either.  it's not exactly a cutting edge website and order process.  i never got a confirmation email until i asked for one a couple days later but the combustor did come quick.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 12, 2007)

tradergordo said:
			
		

> Then again a lot of people complain about cat stoves so I don't know who to believe.



Who complains about them gordo?


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## tradergordo (Nov 12, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> tradergordo said:
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Probably mostly people that refuse to learn how to burn correctly or refuse to do proper stove maintenance?  Don't know.  But just in doing lots of woodstove research and reading lots of reviews (both here and on other sites) - I ran into lots of people complaining about various cat stoves.  Some had to replace combusters after one year, others complained that the combuster was always getting clogged, others just saying the fire would smolder every time they engaged the combuster, difficult to use, etc.  But I'm also well aware of the many positive reviews from people like Elk and many others.


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## swestall (Nov 13, 2007)

Hey all, here's some more info. Draft and supply is the question of today. I looked at the pictures in that previous post and they give some insight to the secondary supply. It is just draw on the stove. I figured perhaps some type of damper. Perhaps the air tubes are blocked. So, I went in with a wire and reamed each one through to (guess what) right through to the draft input on the back of the stove and there is no restriction it just passes through to the outside. So, the temp and fire are controlling heat that is controlling velocity of input/output. That explains why the rumble, it is exactly like leaving the ash door open, only the number/diameter of the air supply holes holds the thing back. And, that thermonuclear mode some describe must occur when temp. is really up there and those air passages are being pulled hard. Now another question for the engineers, why did you put the burn holes right in the ash collection area. The holea in the front area of the thermal block get plugged easily as they are in the first 1/2 inch of the coal/ash bed: so do you think they will get ash in them? I'm thinking of some type of stainless cover that will let the air in but keep the ash out. Interestingly enough the Defiant CAT stove positioned the CAT above which meant there was no air pull below where the coal/ash bed build up. Imagine if VC had put the burn upside down from what they did as in the CAT model, it would solve all these problems as the air would always be there. I also found my last burn was HOT as it cleaned up some creosote residue in the corners of the stove turning them brown/white. I like the idea of increasing the draft a bit, but am not really into replacing the liner. (at least not this year.) ON my old CAT model I had super draft, can't figure out why it is less on this one, except is isn't really cold -  yet.  I have an 6 foot drop to the cleanout, which I just cleaned. Does anyone think that'd make a difference? I did tape off the clean out door with magic duct tape. I do appreciate the help and hope the info is also good as the Everburn/neverBurn question gets sorted out.


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## jpl1nh (Nov 13, 2007)

tradergordo said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
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I'm not trying to bust on you Gordo, but if you have to replace your combustor after a year you're either badly overfiring it or shocking it by putting in wet wood and engaging the combustor before the moisture has been driven out.  Over time combustors do get clogged with fly ash if you don't take the time (maybe 15 mins) to clean them out.  Once every 6-8 weeks of regular use should be plenty.  If the fire smolders when you engage the combustor you probably have not allowed it to get hot enough before engaging the combustor or you're probably using wet or unseasoned wood.  Perhaps those factors make a combustor difficult to use for some.  But with a little bit of understanding they work great, last a long time and are very reliable, effective, and allow for a nice range of fire types from long slow burns to nice hot heat producing burns.  I think there are still a lot of people who just want to throw wood in their stove and not think at all about it.  The older non-epa stoves were so simple that you could do that though your chimney would end up nearly plugged with creosote after a little while.  The new EPA stoves, cat and non-cat, take a bit more understanding but correctly operated are so much more efficient, less polluting, and so much less creosote producing that the little bit of extra knowledge you need to operate them seems well worth it.  Even my wife learned to operate our cat stove and she is NOT someone who is very interested in operational details.


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## webbie (Nov 13, 2007)

swestall said:
			
		

> Now another question for the engineers, why did you put the burn holes right in the ash collection area. The holea in the front area of the thermal block get plugged easily as they are in the first 1/2 inch of the coal/ash bed: so do you think they will get ash in them? I have an 6 foot drop to the cleanout, which I just cleaned. Does anyone think that'd make a difference? I did tape off the clean out door with magic duct tape. I do appreciate the help and hope the info is also good as the Everburn/neverBurn question gets sorted out.



As to the engineering, remember that these are tested with 2x4 and 4x4 as per EPA. Most stoves companies, including VC, sub out a lot of their work these days. My guess is that the contract does not state "stove will burn well with oak rounds in the field at all burn rates after ash builds up", but rather that it will pass all EPA and safety tests. Any further R&D;than that takes someone with particular interest in that. Most companies these days are NOT set up around engineers, but rather around sales and distribution.

As to the chimney, I don't like the idea of cold air "sumps" in the bottom of chimneys. Stuffing a little rock wool or fiberglass in there would give you an idea of the difference it might make.

In general, non-cat stoves SHOULD require less draft than cat stove, but there are exceptions to every rule. The reasoning here is that non-cats are usually running at higher stack temps and therefore create more draft.


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## elkimmeg (Nov 13, 2007)

Goose and I can tell you during out tour in the burn lab, were two combustion engineers burning a stove using common cord wood and examining the air wash system. Had you taken up the invite offer your own eyes could have witnessed this.  We asked and these stoves are also tested  with common cord wood.

 Every owner of these stoves are not suffering your experiences the NC encore donated to the retired ex marine is functioning flawlessly better than expected he is one happy camper

 this is his setup 8" oval to 8' round  rear exit vented into an external  separate 8/8 brick masonry flue , chimney built just for  the wood stove.  It as about 18' above the flue connection

 He is getting a good burn time and very little smoke all his wood is cut stacked in a wood shed 2 year prior to usage. It is dry seasoned properly.  He monitors the stove with a stove top thermometer, and basically treats it like his prior Encore


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## Gunner (Nov 13, 2007)

> Every owner of these stoves are not suffering your experiences the NC encore donated to the retired ex marine is functioning flawlessly better than expected he is one happy camper



Maybe he could stop by here and give some tips, share his experiences with the handful of people that are having trouble.

Not trying to be an azz, but maybe his expectations are not as high coming from a barely serviceable stove, to something brand new.  These stoves are infact heating peoples homes, but are not doing it cleanly and without constant fiddling.


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## tradergordo (Nov 13, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> He is getting a good burn time and very little smoke



I wonder how big the difference is between "very little smoke" and "almost no smoke".  How closely does the guy monitor emissions?  How long does he have to burn before he can damper down and get a clean burn that doesn't start smoking 15 minutes later?

I would REALLY love to see this forum (its members) do a huge new (first of its kind) emissions monitoring study.  Craig & I briefly discussed this a while back.  I don't think anecdotal reports cut it.  I want to see scientifically measured results, and put to rest the debate over which stoves burn the cleanest in the real world and how much various stoves deteriorate over time similar to the Omni study:
http://www.omni-test.com/publications/Long-Term.pdf


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## swestall (Nov 13, 2007)

I wonder how big the difference is between "very little smoke" and "almost no smoke".  How closely does the guy monitor emissions?  How long does he have to burn before he can damper down and get a clean burn that doesn't start smoking 15 minutes later?
And, that is the issue, the VC CAT stove does not smoke and the NC one does. Having had both the Encore and Defiant CAT and now the NC Defiant I can tell you that I've spent more time trying to find that magic place where the NC burns correctly than I ever did maintaining both CAT stoves. (I began with the Encore in 87 and took the Defiant out Oct. this year) That is 20 years of operation. Even when the CAT stove got plugged with a little fly ash, etc: it still burned hot with no creosote build up. I now have creosote after 5 days of burning the NC.  I admit that with all your insights, I am figuring it out: it would have been nice for the VC guys to just provide a diagram of how it works... But, what about the folks that just want to feed and burn: not the ones like us who have this in their blood? They are just scxxxed. I actually think the VC stoves will probably burn much better once they develop a few little leaks so there is more air.  Lastly, what would be a good recommendation for a product to burn weekly to avoid the creosote formation? I never had to think about this before and with the CAT you can't use them anyway.
Thanks to each of you for making my Neverburn experience a little easier while I am on my way to figuring out how to Everburn.


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## dtabor (Nov 13, 2007)

In my last house I had a wood furnace. I was totally new to any wood burning at all and that thing was fed anything, dry/brittle to wet/sizzle. A friend at work recommended Saf-T Flu to add to coals to prevent creosote and I used it religiously as directed. When I had someone come to clean my chimney each year, they were amazed at the lack of any buildup in there. 

Not sure what anyone else has to say about this stuff but as far as I knew it worked????


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## elkimmeg (Nov 13, 2007)

It is very hard to get consistent results during  off burning season the on again off again temps swings .
 even coal stove can't draft properly above 40 degrees

 Even harder to judge performance during this part of the burning e season.. Every time I load a stove its different not just wood species which I just pick off the pile but split sizes  how the load in the stove almost impossible to get the same controlled results  Now if I plained and sawed the wood into 4/4  configurations I could get consistency

 Has anyone tried Bio bricks with these stoves and measured or recorded results?

 I can tell you he the donor stove uses nothing scientific load it watches the stove top thermometer notes secondary charing  closes the damper.  Again no two loads are consistent

 I admit he is not all that concerned about scientific burning he does not even own a computer. To him its a box to heat his home and it works. Don't know how much more to tell you I have been there to see it perform but not 24/7 and no longer than an hour It appease to burn simmilar to my cat stove. Again this time of year without the presence of condition promoting a strong draft  there are times when some smoke is present damper down It happens with my cat and happens with gooses cat stove When the draft is better the fire burns stronger there is a greated pull over hotter coals and more heat in the combustors  or secondary burn chamber Valid results are very hard to determine when it is 40 degree out and not burning day after day 24/7


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## webbie (Nov 13, 2007)

You can tell Elk is from New England!

40 degrees is normal wintertime temperatures for MUCH of the country! It almost never stays lower than this on the entire West coast, and even where I am from in Phila, 40 degrees can be a normal wintertime temp. 

dt, yes, a lot of folks do say that the chemicals help - not with a clean burn, but with making the chimney easier to clean - some say it turns the black tar to a more easily brushed brown powder (over time)....

From what Elk says, it seems like this downdraft technology is best for full-time burners? Maybe dealers can check in if they have sold a lot of them.  Is is also best for high outputs, or does it work really good on medium and low. These questions will really only be answered after another year or two.

I know the old Acclaim system worked pretty well in most all condition, but perhaps that was not "tuned" up as high, or as I said before the box and everything was smaller so it could attain critical mass easier.


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## swestall (Nov 13, 2007)

I can agree with you on that Elk, the outside temp variance, level of coals, et-al seem to have a very great effect on the burn. I cleaned all the secondary burn air siphon holes last night and I'll be interested to see what the effect is by having them all clean so more secondary air can be sucked in by the burn/draft. My wife has been complaining about wood handling, there's a bio brick vendor up in Torrington, CT. I think I'll get a pallet of them and see how they burn/how she likes them. (for when I'm away of course.) If the cleaner air has a big effect, I think I'm going to try to engineer something from stainless to shield the siphon holes to keep them open while supplying secondary air. I'll be sure to come back and report on the bio bricks. I have this feeling that enough air supply to the coals is the key to this problem: too bad the designer didn't see that ash might get in the way of the siphon holes. Kind of like not being able to see that a semi truck is about to hit you square...


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## dtabor (Nov 13, 2007)

If the lowest my winter temps got was 40, Id not have to have a wood stove!! 40's all winter would be balmy!

As Ive said with my NC Defiant. Im happy with it thus far except that damper lever issue which is now resolved, but Im reserving my final judgement until after we've had "real" winter. As far as I can tell, mine is working ok. Ive used the tips Elk has given. But, then again, I wouldnt really know if it WASNT working ok. Once I engage, I hear the rumble and my top temps seem to hover btw 5-600 or so until it gets burned down. Thats with the air control fully open.


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## dtabor (Nov 13, 2007)

Agreed on the position of the holes as well. You cant have the holes in that location AND leave a bit of ash in the bottom as other posts have recommended. Just wont cut it.


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## swestall (Nov 13, 2007)

When I was able to get the secondary burn engaged I found it kept the griddle temp up to 5-600 as well. What was not "good" was the stack temp. which was hovering around 350-425 at 3 feet up the pipe. That was my best/cleanest burn though. Yes, real winter would be nice for this, but for plowing, I can wait.


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## webbie (Nov 13, 2007)

dt, if it was not working, you stack temp would be really low after you engage damper. Also, lots of smoke and smell would be constantly coming out the chimney......

Sw, the Acclaim had similar air holes, but they never did negatively affect the burn. So perhaps our eyes can fool us....wood ash just might be light enough to allow the air to pass though. 

In fact, I once visited an Acclaim customer who had let the ash buildup get to 6-8", and that thing was still working to a pretty good degree!

OK, now this is complete speculation, but I did hear that when Harman was testing their downdraft model, they saw that it passed EPA easily, but did not work as well with cord wood. So they made a decision to add additional air holes in various places, even through it DOUBLED the GPH results. The reason was for "real world" performance....

Travis probably knows a lot about all this, but I would assume those are trade secrets. After all, why share? If the stove(s) work well, that is all that is needed.

Now don't go drilling extra holes in that VC or CDW!


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## elkimmeg (Nov 13, 2007)

Air is suppose to be injected threw those holes, the only way the could be plugged is  while cleaning ash is pushed up against them

 This has gone long enough I'll call VC and ask for answers Sorry Criag but enough is enough.


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## swestall (Nov 13, 2007)

Funny you would say don't go drilling holes, that was exactly my first reaction: actually to enlarge the holes a little so more air could get through them to make up for the ones on the front block that are below the ash level. But, my concern is that could create a run away secondary burn. Not that I would mind a bit hotter burn. I have thoght of ordering a spare base block for the Defiant and drilling out the one in place just to see what happens. It might be too much to think but if I were the engineer on this, I'd have calculated the airflow and placed the siphon holes so it would be constant. You may have stumbled on what could be a wonderful fix for VC: just provide stove owners with a corrected secondary air supply siphon block.... We'll have to see. Before I do that, it needs to get colder because we all start the 24/7 routine when that happens and that alone will change things alot. Should be an intersting one to follow though.


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## webbie (Nov 13, 2007)

A lot of updraft non-cats have constant (fixed) secondary air flow, so this in itself is common practice. 

Elk - call whomever you like - but the "real" answers will not be with VC, but only in the field after a year or two. Proof is in the pudding as we all like to say. Who knows, VC may even fiddle with the holes as the years go by - it is typical to continuously improve such things as feedback comes in.


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## tradergordo (Nov 13, 2007)

I have two unrelated thoughts here.

1)  Those holes you are talking about toward the back of the stove - they aren't there to supply secondary air!  Quite the opposite actually, in fact if they were supplying secondary air they wouldn't be getting clogged up.  Combustion air for the primary firebox actually comes from the front/top of the stove.  Those holes at the back are there to deliver gasified wood to the secondary combustion chambers.  If you add your own shields over them, they won't do what they were intended to do.  That said, plugging some of those holes might actually improve performance, who knows?  It could force a more concentrated, and hotter supply of gasified wood though the main opening (i.e. the throat).  


2)  To illustrate a point about emissions vs. a stove owners perceptions, look at the Omni study if you have some time.  Do a search on "defiant" to pull out everything on the person with the Vermont Castings Defiant Encore Catalytic stove (EPA Phase II certified to burn at 1.6 g/hr).

Actual quotes from the study: "The Vermont Castings Defiant Encore (Appendix A, Photograph 31) is in good working
condition, including the door gaskets and refractory elements."

"The owners indicated that they are happy with the stove."

During the first of two full week study periods with this stove, it was burning 98% of the time.  By most measures, it SEEMED to be burning great, in fact this person used nearly half the wood that some of the other stoves burning full time consumed.  The average indoor temp was a cozy 71 degrees F.  And yet the emission rate was a horrible 23 g/hr! (remember its certification value is 1.6 g/hr)

So the owner is happy, their house is warm, they aren't using that much wood, and yet they are polluting like crazy and not getting anywhere near the EPA certification number on emissions.  So just because someone says they are happy with their stove, or they are heating their house fine, that doesn't necessarily mean they are burning clean.  And for what its worth, the average non-cat EPA phase II stove burns cleaner over time and under real world conditions than the average cat stove in multiple studies that I've seen so far.  But perhaps these everburn stoves will change all that


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## Rob From Wisconsin (Nov 13, 2007)

Cutting through all the "variables".....

Like was previously mentioned, is Everburn "draft-sensative"?
Is it too early (not cold enough) to generate the sufficient draft that is required??
Does it operate better w/ a metal chimney than a masonry?

Also, it sounds like users w/ the "larger" Everburn units are voicing problems.
How about the two smaller Dutchwest units??

I'd like to know.....

Rob


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## webbie (Nov 13, 2007)

Trader, perhaps I am misunderstanding, but are you saying that those holes push toward the rear of the stove as opposed to pull from the rear and inject air at the bottom of the throat? If so, I think that is wrong....let me dig up the patent on similar stoves...

Ok, look at google patents - 4856491

See enclosed - notice #96 in the drawing.

BTW, this drawing also shows the sloping grate which the Acclaim has/had and why the coals are easier to build up in such a design.


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## elkimmeg (Nov 13, 2007)

> in fact this person used nearly half the wood that some of the other stoves burning full time consumed
> 
> yet they are polluting like crazy and not getting anywhere near the EPA certification number on emissions.



 so reading from trader quoted study, this  defies all logic if they are burning 1/2 less wood than how can they be polluting more than other stoves burning twice as much?

 Isn't efficiency also measured in the amount of wood burnt?  Boy doe this need explaining


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## tradergordo (Nov 13, 2007)

No we are talking about a different set of holes.  Maybe I'm just confused about what part the original poster is talking about.  That said, if he was talking about #96 in your diagram I don't see how that could EVER get plugged with ash - it does nothing but suck air into the secondary combustion chamber.  Only way I can think of that it would get clogged was if the flue gasses were running in reverse (a very serious problem indeed).  Although it does seem a little strange that at least the way it looks in that diagram, ash is heaped right up against it.  The Dutchwest design is a lot different than that diagram, the coal bed isn't actually supposed to extend INTO the secondary burn chamber (I would think it would be a maintenance nightmare if it did as you'd have to clean ash out of there continuously).






			
				Webmaster said:
			
		

> Trader, perhaps I am misunderstanding, but are you saying that those holes push toward the rear of the stove as opposed to pull from the rear and inject air at the bottom of the throat? If so, I think that is wrong....let me dig up the patent on similar stoves...
> 
> Ok, look at google patents - 4856491
> 
> ...


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## Todd (Nov 13, 2007)

swestall said:
			
		

> When I was able to get the secondary burn engaged I found it kept the griddle temp up to 5-600 as well. What was not "good" was the stack temp. which was hovering around 350-425 at 3 feet up the pipe. That was my best/cleanest burn though. Yes, real winter would be nice for this, but for plowing, I can wait.



If your stove top is 5-600 and at the same time your stove pipe is 350-425 I fail to see why that is bad. The pipe temp should be less than the stove temp. That tells me it's working correctly. More heat in the stove verses the pipe equals high efficiency. Every EPA stove I've owned whether cat or non cat acted that way.


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## Todd (Nov 13, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> > in fact this person used nearly half the wood that some of the other stoves burning full time consumed
> >
> > yet they are polluting like crazy and not getting anywhere near the EPA certification number on emissions.
> 
> ...



There could be many reasons for going through 1/2 the wood. They might not be at temp when egaging the cat or the cat was dead and produced a smouldering fire but enough heat to keep them warm enough. Kind of like running an old airtight. Was the stove oversized for the house? Wet wood? Type of wood?


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## Gunner (Nov 13, 2007)

dtabor said:
			
		

> If the lowest my winter temps got was 40, Id not have to have a wood stove!! 40's all winter would be balmy!
> 
> As Ive said with my NC Defiant. Im happy with it thus far except that damper lever issue which is now resolved, but Im reserving my final judgement until after we've had "real" winter. As far as I can tell, mine is working ok. Ive used the tips Elk has given. But, then again, I wouldnt really know if it WASNT working ok. Once I engage, I hear the rumble and my top temps seem to hover btw 5-600 or so until it gets burned down. Thats with the air control *fully open*.



Was the fully open a typo?

Should not have to keep the air fully open to maintain 5-600 stovetop.  Something is wrong, wood, draft etc.

Once you get to 600 you should be able to cut it back most of the way and maintain temps.  Fully open for extended periods will overfire most any stove with good draft and dry wood, the fact that yours is only getting as hot as 600 indicates something is wrong.

What are your burn times like?


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## webbie (Nov 14, 2007)

tradergordo said:
			
		

> No we are talking about a different set of holes.  Maybe I'm just confused about what part the original poster is talking about.  That said, if he was talking about #96 in your diagram I don't see how that could EVER get plugged with ash - it does nothing but suck air into the secondary combustion chamber.  Only way I can think of that it would get clogged was if the flue gasses were running in reverse (a very serious problem indeed).  Although it does seem a little strange that at least the way it looks in that diagram, ash is heaped right up against it.  The Dutchwest design is a lot different than that diagram, the coal bed isn't actually supposed to extend INTO the secondary burn chamber (I would think it would be a maintenance nightmare if it did as you'd have to clean ash out of there continuously).



In the acclaim (that diagram) the ash and coals certainly did build up right against and over the air inlets - and I can see how folks looking at them would assume that they become clogged because of that. But they didn't, again because of how might wood ash is...or for whatever reason.

I'll have to study some of the other designs closer in person......or in stove, whichever it might be.

This air is what fuels the secondary burn - by adding air just where you need more (the other air is consumed earlier in the fire)


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## Gooserider (Nov 14, 2007)

IIRC the Omni study, the Defiant they were looking at was burning some of the wettest wood in the entire study, and had NOT been serviced or cleaned in several years, including running a very elderly cat.  The gaskets may have been OK, but the rest of the stove was a good example of "how not to maintain a good burning stove"

Gooserider


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## elkimmeg (Nov 14, 2007)

why do we keep going back to such an unscientific bogus study?  Total lack of controls  no control of wood moisture no stove condition report. Presented by a lab that lost its  certification
 for falsifying results.  Now does that sound like a study that holds a lot of credence? What the hell did BI members infiltrate our forum?


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## webbie (Nov 14, 2007)

Wait, Elk - you quoted Omni about the cleanest stoves! You cannot have it both ways.....
http://www.omni-environmental.com/cvhouck_publications.html

Omni is very highly regarded in the field, and a lot of people (including some who worked at VC!) were "in" on that study. The EPA and other government agencies also work with Omni on stuff like this.

It is the ONLY scientific field study which has been done in the last decade, so I wouldn't call it bogus. It showed what we all knew for a long time, that stoves in the field perform vastly different than in the lab. 

I would like there to be many more studies like this, but it is very expensive to set up a complete EPA lab in a persons house! 

Elk, the study clearly says what it is and what it is not. To me it means nothing about brands, but rather that stoves and users/chimneys have a long way to go before they REALLY perform in the best way possible.


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## TMonter (Nov 14, 2007)

> why do we keep going back to such an unscientific bogus study?  Total lack of controls no control of wood moisture no stove condition report. Presented by a lab that lost its certification for falsifying results.  Now does that sound like a study that holds a lot of credence? What the hell did BI members infiltrate our forum?



Unscientific? Maybe, but it also underscores the need for a user friendly system (Or more training) which as a whole the non-cat stoves seem to be better for.



> so reading from trader quoted study, this defies all logic if they are burning 1/2 less wood than how can they be polluting more than other stoves burning twice as much?



Actually it doesn't defy logic. When stoves are turned down further they tend to do worse on emissions. This is also true of industrial boilers. Solid fuel appliances have lousy turndown compared to liquid or gas ones. This is simply the nature of the beast.


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## dtabor (Nov 14, 2007)

Gunner, Nope, not a typo, but I dont sit there and watch it either. Once I turn the air down, I leave to do other things or go to bed. Also the fact that its not really cold here yet but I believe my draft is fine, only way to know for sure is to have it measured I guess. The chimney is a 1 piece 8" SS, 25' up thru an existing brick chimney in center of house and insulated.

Ive said before that Im not making any judgements on this thing until we get cold weather and Im burning 24/7. Then if there are issues, the dealer/installer will be at my place fixing things. Such is the reason I paid so much to have THEM do it!! Accountability.


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## tradergordo (Nov 14, 2007)

Elk - I would love to see a new, bigger, and better study.  You are right, they didn't set careful enough controls.  The odd thing is that the people running the study were the ones that actually supplied the wood to the participants, they also carefully measured the weight and moisture content of all wood burned.  I guess they just couldn't find a consistent supply?  Don't know.  But at least they documented all of this.  But my point in bringing up the study was simply to point out that people can be perfectly happy with their stoves, and heat the houses just fine, all while being totally clueless about their emissions.  Nothing more, nothing less.  

The point is that hearing about people that are happy with a particular stove shouldn't be evidence that they are getting consistent clean burns, especially when so many have reported problems in this regard and no one with a stove of the design in question has posted on the forum that they are able to achieve consistent, hassle free, clean burns.


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## webbie (Nov 14, 2007)

TMonter said:
			
		

> Actually it doesn't defy logic. When stoves are turned down further they tend to do worse on emissions. This is also true of industrial boilers. Solid fuel appliances have lousy turndown compared to liquid or gas ones. This is simply the nature of the beast.



Interestingly enough, the above it true ONLY in the field. In the lab, stoves produce less particulates (GPH) if they top at a LOW output, because less wood = less particulates! Same reason is why OWB's were tested and ended up almost as clean as EPA stoves.....because it was adjusted for the GPH per KILO of wood burned. 

The good news is this - the renewed popularity of wood burning is going to advance stoves up a notch. As I said before, the last two decades were a down market for wood stoves, and therefore there was not too much competition nor as much R&D;as their could have been. Now the manufacturers are looking a little closer.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 14, 2007)

Observation about this "Everburn" type technology. I stopped by the local Harman dealer's place yesterday. Noticed that the secondary combustion chamber on the Exception stove and insert are cast iron while the new TL-3000 uses the ceramic refractory stuff.


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## swestall (Nov 16, 2007)

Hello All, I've been out of town for a few days, when I got home my wife said, "I'm freezing, light the stove". So I did. It would be nice if the Defiant CAT/NC had a nice diagram like the Acclaim. They are similar, but, the stove bottom grate is level and the Shoe refractory (where the holes are) and secondary burn Fireback opening are also at the bottom of the stove. It seems to me that ash is going to get into these siphon holes over time and they are going to need attention, especially the ones directly on the bottom/front of the shoe.   I am trying to get the stovetop and flue temp up to 600 with some coals in front of the shoe prior to closing the damper; last time that seemed to work. There is no visible smoke out the stack at these temps with the damper open. We'll see later on when I close it. This is a much different operational unit than the CAT version. I suspect if this works, that will be OK, but people need to know these things. Draft is a little better today, and it is a little colder, so we should have a real "sucker" when it finally cools off.   As a note, I've had the Defiant NC drafting for primary air wash apart and it is a direct feed from the large hole in the stove bottom. The draft control is a direct linkage that operates a flapper above the doors for primary air/wash. This same large hole is a direct feed into the shoe refractory (where the secondary air input siphon holes are) with the only restriction being the area of the opening of the holes in the shoe refractory. Increase area of openings, more air, decrease openings, less air.   So, when the front/bottom holes are blocked by ash there is a restriction on air inflow for secondary combustion. (unless the air is mystically getting through the ash).   The Defiant NC parts diagram is all you get with this stove. It is on the VC web site. No airflow diagram: but above is how it works. The stove is very tight.   So, I just closed the damper with the stove at 600 stove top/550 pipe. I everburn fired off for about 45 seconds and stalled, when I went outside, lots of smoke out the stack. I'm going to try again. Well, no "rumble" but it sure is HOT. 350 pipe/550 stove top.       I'm going to bed and I'll see how it looks in the morning. On the CAT version the morning stove would have coals and lots of white on the griddle top where all creosote residue had burned off. Let's see what happens with this. Something tells me we are going to go up a pinch on the diamerter of the siphon holes. Perhaps that's what she needs. I will wait for colder weather to verify. VC should pay us for all this thinking...    You all are great and I enjoy the forum a lot. I have about 15 stoves, I love the old ones. They use a bunch of wood, but the burn w/o creosote and keep things warm. My favorites are an old Army Cannon Heater, an Old Oak stove with lots of nickel and a coal stove I have that stands about 5'6" tall with a large ring around it so you can sit around it and put your feet up. (not for long HOT) And lastly, there is an old light green and yellow porcelain princess kitchen stove. (We had one of those on the farm in NH where I lived as a boy) Good night to all!


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## swestall (Nov 16, 2007)

LIFTOFF.........Finally engaged. Here is how it went. I pulled the wood away from the Masonary Fireback thinking perhaps you have to preheat it a bit. Then I let the flue temp go up to 600+ and closed the damper. There was a slight opening in the splits so I can see the flame being sucked into the secondary burn chamber. And, there is NO smoke coming out of the stack at all. Now, I just need to figure out how to consistently do this and teach my lady. These stoves operate very differently than my previous VC units. For the record, looking at that other thread, I think the DW is put together the same way. But, I think I'll go by a dealer and take a look to be sure, then report back: unless somneone already knows.  Agian, you folks are great and I hope all this info helps someone else as they approach this problem.  I thought this would be my last stove for a while, but it looks like I'm already thinking about those improved units that are going to come from all these real life experiences. I hope VC will take the ball and run with it; but I'm not just buying because they "say so" ever again. Thanks again to all... In case some of you were wondering that red thing is my 35 Chop Top Sedan: that's for my summer HOT! I'll be around the forum for a long time. Steve.


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## tradergordo (Nov 16, 2007)

Glad you are now at least seeing what it can do and getting some secondary combustion.  Oh and yea, you don't want "cold" logs blocking the flow of gasses into the secondary combustion chamber.  

I’ve basically come to the conclusion that my stove works as its supposed to, but “as its supposed to” means you have to build up a huge red hot coal bed before dampering down, and you should use wood that facilitates building up a huge red hot coal bed, and you should sometimes expect to spend hours building and managing this coal bed before you can damper down. This seems to pretty much be the way VC expects it to work and agrees with the very short blurb in the owners manual describing how to run it.  They probably leave out all the detail because they don’t want to scare potential buyers away.  

This is all fine and dandy as long as you know what you are getting into from the beginning.  I think a potential buyer should understand all this before they make their purchase, and they should also check out other types of stoves to see if they might be less hassle.  Like I've always said, I've never burned any other stoves, so I can't offer any comparisons.  For all I know, other designs have their own quirks, flaws, and drawbacks...  I look forward to reading more reviews and feedback from others on this in the future.  And one of these days I have a feeling the real world g/hr emissions monitoring IS going to happen, that is going to reveal a whole lot, especially when it comes to everburn stoves.


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## swestall (Nov 16, 2007)

Hey Gordo..You pretty much sum it up. It seems to be the way VC/DW want it to be: but it is a lot of hassle. I will reserve my final judgement for later in the year when it is colder. Something tells me I don't have the patience to live with this in the long run and I will be shopping for something as pretty but that works with a lot less effort. I actually think I'm going to get the CAT stove out and rebuild it. I didn't have any problem with it even when the CAT was no good, it still burned clean....


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## Rob From Wisconsin (Nov 16, 2007)

swestall said:
			
		

> LIFTOFF.........Finally engaged. Here is how it went. I pulled the wood away from the Masonary Fireback thinking perhaps you have to preheat it a bit. Then I let the flue temp go up to 600+ and closed the damper. There was a slight opening in the splits so I can see the flame being sucked into the secondary burn chamber. And, there is NO smoke coming out of the stack at all. Now, I just need to figure out how to consistently do this and teach my lady. These stoves operate very differently than my previous VC units. For the record, looking at that other thread, I think the DW is put together the same way. But, I think I'll go by a dealer and take a look to be sure, then report back: unless somneone already knows.  Agian, you folks are great and I hope all this info helps someone else as they approach this problem.  I thought this would be my last stove for a while, but it looks like I'm already thinking about those improved units that are going to come from all these real life experiences. I hope VC will take the ball and run with it; but I'm not just buying because they "say so" ever again. Thanks again to all... In case some of you were wondering that red thing is my 35 Chop Top Sedan: that's for my summer HOT! I'll be around the forum for a long time. Steve.



So, what do you think was the "magic bullet"??
-Hot Stove
-Hot, Drafting chimney
-Cold Temps
-Correct positioning of fuel/coals
-Or-
some or all of the above??

I'm also interested what kind of burn times you get when it is
operating properly....


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## webbie (Nov 16, 2007)

I'm certain we will find the answer - but my question is why they moved away from the sloping grate and smaller bottom - which would seem to make it vastly easier to build up the initial critical mass...and keep it! Perhaps the key is that these new units are designed for cold climates to constant use. Even then, one look at that acclaim patent cutaway - shows that the coal bed forms very easily and is always resting against the rear - that would seem ideal. But, then again, I don't sit around in test labs or designing stoves.


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## BurningIsLove (Nov 16, 2007)

I'm not sure if those holes do get clogged or not (tough to tell w/o disassembly), but about once a week I use the shop-vac that has a dust filter and vacuum the stove out paying special attention to those tiny holes. 

During those days when Im burning 24x7, ash does build up but it doesn't seem to affect performance.  As tradergordo summarized, it's more about coal depth than anything else.  When adding fresh splits, with a CAT you can normally engage the secondary burn (close the bypass) in about 1/2 the time that is necessary on the Everburn stoves.  

I'm posting my everburn procedure as a separate thread because this isnt specific to the Defiant/DW/other everburn stoves:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/10996/


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## swestall (Nov 17, 2007)

*



			So, what do you think was the “magic bullet”?? 
-Hot Stove 
-Hot, Drafting chimney 
-Cold Temps 
-Correct positioning of fuel/coals 
-Or- 
some or all of the above?? 
I’m also interested what kind of burn times you get when it is 
operating properly....
		
Click to expand...

*
Hot stove: I seem to have to get the pipe temp up to 600+, measured 2' up the pipe w/condar magnetic therm.
Hot draft: it takes a long time and a lot of heat up the stack to get there.
Temp: not sure that makes any difference as draft is good.
Coals: you do have to have a lot of them, 2-3" bed with many hot coals in front of the throat.
If I don't get these conditions on the first fire of the secondary burn, it will stall. you can hear the rumble/blast subside and then see smoke start out the stack. Once the Everburn is engaged it seems easier to add splits to it and re-engage it: as long as there are lots of coals to keep it going. From what I can see what is happening is the coals are preheating the gasses/smoke, the siphon holes are providing air and the rumble is a blast furnace affect that results from the draft pulling the igniting gasses/smoke up and out. 
Once Everburn is engaged, you can lower the primary air supply to minimum if desired.
Burn time is 8-10 hours with a bed of coals left in the morning to start a fire, but you have to build them up to re-engage the Everburn mode. I suspect this will become simpler as it gets colder because we'll burn more wood to keep warm, thus feeding the need of the stove for lots of coals.
There is another thread that has been started regarding Everburn and it takes off where this leaves off. CFM/VC is going to listen and asks for Hearth input,GREAT I think.


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## kevin fitzsimmons (Nov 20, 2007)

I had (key word had) an VC non cat with everburn.  The stories here and on the other thread about the DW non cat ring true.  When it worked, it worked well.  All and all way to much effort was required to burn properly.  I was spending hours trying to get the cat engaged, running out to look a the stack, run down to see it has stalled and the temps were tanking,...  When the secondary was working properly i felt like i should get some sort of medal or prize, then i tried to figure out what the key elements were.  Never really did.  Seemed like I needed a ju ju chiken foot more than a manual for the stove.  Most of the burning was with the bypass open, therefore pretty inefficient.  I was pretty frustrated.  While the everburn seemed to be a good idea, my thoughts were drifting to a PE super 27.  After the first few fires of the season i was back to the frustration, and really not wanting to even burn (Gasp).  So, the vC is gone, the PE is in.  Set it and forget it.


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## kwburn (Nov 20, 2007)

where do the Harmon Oakwood users fit into this picture?  it's the same technology right?
the half dozen or so reviews of the Oakwood in the ratings are all very positive.  maybe they have chimed in on a different thread, its hard to keep track.
i'm curious...


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## swestall (Nov 20, 2007)

Why don't we start a new thread, "Experience tells us replace the Everburn stoves with......" Perhaps we can get some concensus as to what burns clean and easy and what to stay away from. I looked at that PE stove (t-5 and t-6) It looks nice but I thing I need a top loader...where does that leave us. Someone is going to get a Defiant NC 1/2 price at some point!


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## mikeathens (Nov 20, 2007)

1/2 price is what I got on trade for my dutchwest NC.  Luckily, I got a used Hearthstone Heritage for about 1/2 price, so it all worked out in the end.  Your stove might make a good planter for the wife, or possibly a great mailbox.   Hit THAT with a ball bat...


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## BJN644 (Nov 20, 2007)

kwburn said:
			
		

> where do the Harmon Oakwood users fit into this picture?  it's the same technology right?
> the half dozen or so reviews of the Oakwood in the ratings are all very positive.  maybe they have chimed in on a different thread, its hard to keep track.
> i'm curious...



Well, I took a chance and bought an Oakwood after a few people tried to discourage me. I have all the same problems you see posted. I don't get the "thermonuclear" burn that other have mentioned, but all the other problems. The only way to get the secondary burn to stay sustained is to keep the stove on high fire, just to un-realistic, the stove would be burned out in no time, not to metion my house too. The stove is very solidly constucted and I love the top loading feature, just need to get this burn thing straightened out or find a way to get my money back on the stove.

If I would have waited 1 week I would have read these multiple post and pages about this sytem and would definately bought something else. I did base alot of my decision on the positve reviews in the ratings section, maybe those people don't see all the smoke?


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## kevin fitzsimmons (Nov 20, 2007)

1/2 price is what i got for my VC NC.  A bit of a kick in the teeth to start over again with a new stove, but i just came from home where i fired in a few pieces of wood, let them char up, set the air at low, let the secondary take over, and jump in truck.  looked a the stack as i pulled out,  beautifully, not a hint of smoke, no evidence of a fire in the system at all.  Honestly, i would be 10, 15, 20 min late to work while i was trying to get secondary in the VC, i would finally give up and tell my wife the she could do what she liked with the fire, let it go out, work with , whatever i give up.  I had better luck on weekends and evenings when i could work it.  Even then if the coals got low at all, a start all over.  Pretty much don't leave for more than a few hours.  Not to bring other everburn users down, but this is far to much fussing to accept as normal opp procedure.


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## kwburn (Nov 20, 2007)

i fell in love with the oakwood when i saw it last month at a dealer.  if looking for a new stove, i too would buy it on the spot after reading a couple of good reviews.


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## BJN644 (Nov 20, 2007)

kwburn said:
			
		

> i fell in love with the oakwood when i saw it last month at a dealer.  if looking for a new stove, i too would buy it on the spot after reading a couple of good reviews.



I truley hope I can get it to work properly because it really is a nice stove. I'll keep following the forum and watch for updates. On a side note it is burning good right now, except for the glass being black.


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## swestall (Nov 21, 2007)

I'm going to go see that Pacific Energy t-5 tomorrow. Ya know that was a funny one about the mailbox. I finally had to get a mailbox in town because the high school boys kept bashing my mail box in with a baseball bat. I wish I had one that was strong enough, I'd give it and the Vermont Castings Neverburn NC stove to them.

Well, if we have these dirty stoves, at least we have each other to hash it over with. Like most others, I sure wish I'd gotten this thread opened before I bought this nice anchor.

It snowed here for a while today, enough so that many drivers were all over the road, we had ice under the little snow. The cold is now coming at us. Seems pretty late and they say it may warm up again next week. If this warming thing keeps on, we may be able to heat with a can of sterno in these things.

Happy Thanksgiving to All.


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## QuailRunner (Nov 27, 2007)

I have a different problem with the burner - I have a VC Encore NC, and I have been able to get the "rumble" fairly consistently, with minimal effort, after lighting the fire and leaving the bypass open for 13-30 minutes, the stove will fire well, and the everburn system will engage even with the air supply lever set to minimum.  The stove gets quite hot (550 at 15" up on the stove pipe, outside), but the griddle does not get really hot (500 or so, although my gauge may not be too accurate).  The problem is that the stove burns through a medium/large load quickly (5-6 hours), and I think the draft in my chimney is the issue (note that when the stove is burning, I can see a little smoke, mostly white, outside, but nothing like the 1979 VC Intrepid that I replaced with the current stove in Dec, 2005).  The  type and moisture of the wood I burn affects the smoke's color a lot, but its generally quite low volume; its usually not visible at all during the day once the damper is closed).  The chimney is 8' round, with a liner and is cleaned every spring.  The sweep (professional) indicated that the chimney was fairly clean when his crew was out last spring.

Two days ago, I was cleaning the ashes from the various nooks in the firebox and saw some non-ash material fall from inside the everburn entrance at the lower back of the stove.  I reached up and more of it crumbled off into my hands.   This appears to be the fibrous material that has been referenced in previous postings.  I have contacted the seller (an authorized VC dealer) and they are contacting VC about it.  My question is; is this what I think it is (or, more generally, what is this stuff), and should I expect that this will be a warrantied repair if it needs to be repaired?


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## tradergordo (Nov 27, 2007)

Sounds like the white/grey, fibrous, ceramic secondary burn chamber liner to me.  Its beginning to sound like this stuff is more delicate than VC might have thought?  Assuming there is no evidence of overfiring, it IS covered by your warranty and should be replaced free of charge.  I hope the few cases of this that have been reported so far are exceptions and not the rule.

Anyone know if that meterial is essentially the same thing used in those ceramic brickettes they sell for propane grills?  After firing they both have a similar color I think.  Those brickettes don't last forever either.  Elk said VC uses the same material to insulate molten iron in the foundary - I wonder how often they replace that stuff in the foundary?

p.s.  In case anyone was wondering where Elk went, he was banned from the forum.


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## QuailRunner (Nov 27, 2007)

[quote author="tradergordo" date="1196203414"]Sounds like the white/grey, fibrous, ceramic secondary burn chamber liner to me.  Its beginning to sound like this stuff is more delicate than VC might have thought?  Assuming there is no evidence of overfiring, it IS covered by your warranty and should be replaced free of charge.  I hope the few cases of this that have been reported so far are exceptions and not the rule.

Thanks -- my dealer just got back to me from VC, and they determined between the two of them that the "shoe gasket" is the source of the deteriorating material.  From my description, does this make sense at all?   I think the quote above is *much* more likely to be accurate, given the diagram in the manual, which shows the shoe gasket lying horizontally below the opening to the chamber.


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## webbie (Nov 27, 2007)

Q, it does sound like some parts of the soft ceramic - you really should not even touch that stuff with your hands and fingers because it will fall or crumble apart. It can do OK if not shocked. 

A small amount of it does not mean it has to be replaced - there may be internal ribs or small extra pieces which crumble off.

As far as this being the same material used to line melting furnaces, I have my doubts! There are many types of alumina refractory bricks, many of which are much harder than this soft stuff. We have some engineers here who might be able to qualify that, but I remember literally 100's of formulations of refractory materials.


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## begreen (Nov 27, 2007)

I am wondering if the refractory composition might be an area where VC everburns differ from the Harman Oakwood and/or Lopi Leyden. Would anyone know this or be able to find out?


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## Gooserider (Nov 27, 2007)

When Elk and I were up at the VC factory, we were told that the stuff they made the refractory chambers out of, and both the Everburn and the cat stoves use the same stuff, was the exact same castable refractory that they used to line their crucibles with at the foundry...  Don't know this for a fact, but it's what we were told.

Doesn't seem to explain the failure, but who knows.

Gooserider


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## webbie (Nov 27, 2007)

Goose, that sounds interesting, because the stuff I have seen looks more like "spun" ceramics or pressed boards glued together as opposed to cast stuff. I mean, think about it, how are you going to pour a couple tons of iron at 2500 degrees into this stuff if your finger can go through it?  

Here is some idea of the types available:
http://www.azom.com/SearchResults.asp?AppKeyWord=Furnace+linings

Also, see:
http://www.inproheat.com/ceramic_board.asp?parent=refractory

I think if they do use this in their furnaces, they use it as "back up" insulation as that pages says, and it is not exposed to the iron. In other words, encased between the metal pot and the alumina firebrick interior. 

This stuff has always been a pain when it gets touched. We sold some multi-fuel furnaces that used this as liners for the pot that the oil fired into, and we sold regular replacements because a piece of wood occasionally would touch it, and it would flake off.


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## Gooserider (Nov 27, 2007)

As I said, I don't know the details, just what I was told...  Presumably you could pour the iron into it if you had some sort of spreader so that you didn't hit in one place with the initial pour, or even if it poured in with the material supported so that it couldn't punch through.  Once the liquid iron starts to build up you would have a uniform pressure on the material that should be able to handle it.  

I think part of the problem with the way we see this stuff being used in a VC is that it isn't supported by a backing of any sort, you just have a block of it sitting there.  In the iron crucible you would have a solid pot that has a layer of this poured over it and cured so that it has solid support.

What we saw in VC's plant was that they had molds, and would mix the stuff up like cement and pour it into the mold.  It would then be baked in a high temp curing oven which would burn out all the carrier ingredients, leaving the spun ceramic looking stuff behind.

KeithO has some experience with insulators and ceramics of this sort IIRC, perhaps we can get his opinion on it?

Gooserider


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## QuailRunner (Nov 29, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Goose, that sounds interesting, because the stuff I have seen looks more like "spun" ceramics or pressed boards glued together as opposed to cast stuff. I mean, think about it, how are you going to pour a couple tons of iron at 2500 degrees into this stuff if your finger can go through it?



This is a fairly accurate description of the stuff that has fallen out of the everburn chamber in my stove.  I'm somewhat convinced that it is the shoe gasket, after using a mirror to look up at the damage.  Willing enough to pay the $40 for a replacement from VC with instructions.   I'll post after I get it, to indicate whether or not this diagnosis is correct.


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## tradergordo (Nov 30, 2007)

QuailRunner said:
			
		

> Webmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought ALL gaskets were fiberglass (like what you can see on the doors).  Those are very different from the ceramic everburn chamber stuff.  If you are talking about fiberglass gasket, then it should not crumble to dust when squeezed, basically it should feel like the gasket in your doors.

And why are you paying for something that should be covered by the warranty?  Did they tell you it wasn't covered? If so, what was their reason.  I'm just curious.


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## swestall (Nov 30, 2007)

Hey All. The gasket below the refractory shoe is made of a fibrous material and it is about 1/8" thick. I've not taken it apart after a lot of heat to know if it would crumble. I have had it apart and it is the same dimensions as the shoe with cutouts for the air passages. I do believe it is covered by the warrantee. The fiberous box that the refractory package plugs into is another item yet; it is made of a very densly packed material "board" that resembles the asbestos board of yesteryear. It is about 3/8-1/2 inch thick. Then you have the refractory and shoe, they seem to be made of the poured and treated ceramic that has been discussed. It is hard and brittle. It is my understanding that the entire assembly is warranteed. 
Another interesting thing I've learned in the past few weeks. (about Everburn) It needs to breathe; not just at the base where the opening is but along the back of the stove up and down the refractory block. I've observed that when the air path is not open (blocked by a split or two) that the gasses will flash and ignite in the stove causing a burst of pressure/smoke. Most of this is going up the stack, but you also will get a backpuff if any gasket seam is weak and it will momentarily puff out the air siphon holes in the shoe. Of course this gives you smoke in the house.. Easily remedied by rearraging the splits and giving it a tad more air: except that you have to get up (be awakened) at 3AM with a headache and do it. 
And, getting the Eberburn to kick in. It seems that the siphon holes in the shoe need a pretty good draft to get the pull through for good ignition. Closing the primary actually aids in this process. But, not totally as you still need a fair bed of coals in front of the shoe opening and a 500+ stack temp. (600 actually works better) And, the greater the draft, the better the sipon: in fact that would also account for those who have had the "thermonuclear" experience. IN that case the draft is pulling like crazy. Since there is no draft control on the shoe the strenght of the draft is going to determine if you have Eberburn, too little, just right or way too much. Wonderful design....
CFM-Vermont Castings and Dutchwest should take note: this is a lot for people to have to go through to have their products.
Tradergordo: Do you know if CFM is still planning to do a real world evaluation regarding this situation?


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## BJN644 (Nov 30, 2007)

> Another interesting thing I’ve learned in the past few weeks. (about Everburn) It needs to breathe



I find this interesting, I have a new Harmon Oakwood that I have been tring to figure out. I have been pleasantly surprised that the past few days I can engage the secondary burn and keep it going even with the air cut back to 1/4 open. The secret seems to be the thick bed of coals, takes about 1 1/2 hours from cold. I had been keeping the opening to the rear burn chamber clear of wood except for the coals on the bottom and was having trouble like everyone else. Now, I roll a piece of hot burning wood right up against the back of the opening of the burn chamber and load her up. The past few days it has worked great ! I have been measuring temps with an infared thermometer at various spots on the stove. With the air cut back back to 1/4 the stack is around 250, the top of the stove is around 300 and the back of the stove is just over 500 deg. we have igntion ! There is no doubt that there is secondary combustion going on with temps that high in the back of the stove, I rarely hear any rumble that others have spoke about. From what I can tell the secret seems to be keeping a burning log up against the opening to the burn chamber. It still is a little bit of a hassel to babysit for that first 1 1/2 hour though.


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## tradergordo (Nov 30, 2007)

BJN644 said:
			
		

> Now, I roll a piece of hot burning wood right up against the back of the opening of the burn chamber and load her up. The past few days it has worked great ! I have been measuring temps with an infared thermometer at various spots on the stove. With the air cut back back to 1/4 the stack is around 250, the top of the stove is around 300 and the back of the stove is just over 500 deg. we have igntion ! There is no doubt that there is secondary combustion going on with temps that high in the back of the stove, I rarely hear any rumble that others have spoke about. From what I can tell the secret seems to be keeping a burning log up against the opening to the burn chamber. It still is a little bit of a hassel to babysit for that first 1 1/2 hour though.



How long have you been using the stove?  I don't know, I usually don't get very good results when I have any log (burning, charred, or anything but glowing red coals) up against the throat opening.

Also I'm curious - have you gone out and looked at what is coming out the stack when you say you are getting secondary combustion with no rumble and a 250 stack temp?  I've never seen clean emissions with a 250 stack temp unless only coals are left.  It doesn't surprise me that the back of the stove would be hotter when dampered down, because that's the first part of the stove all exhaust hits after it leaves the firebox (top of the stove is actually very isolated (probably too isolated) from the exhaust flow when dampered down, and of course the stack itself is the furthest point from the firebox.

Remember that secondary combustion only occurs at 1000+ degree temps without a catalyst.


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## tradergordo (Nov 30, 2007)

swestall said:
			
		

> Tradergordo: Do you know if CFM is still planning to do a real world evaluation regarding this situation?



I have no idea what they are doing.  These stoves have been around for a couple years now, and I assume some of their employees are using them.  I'd also assume they undergo extensive real world use before they are ever even sold to the public, but who knows?  Then you have this supposed everburn instructional DVD - does it exist?  Wish I knew.


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## swestall (Nov 30, 2007)

Wish I knew too. You would think they would use their stoves, but perhaps they are too smart for that. I've decided to increase my draft with a SS one piece/8" oval liner and see what that does. Even if I replace the stove later, the SS liner will be easier to clean over time and will draft better for all stoves. In the meantime, I've become an Eberburn-sitter...


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## BJN644 (Nov 30, 2007)

tradergordo said:
			
		

> BJN644 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have had the stove close to a month now. Like I said a thick bed of coals is the key, then I roll the burning log against the opening. I can get all of my temps. much hotter with more air, just wanted to show an example of what I could acheive with little air, and I get no smoke from the chimney. The 500 + deg temp seems to be the magic number, even with the air control wide open and stack temps over 500 the back of the stove had never gone over 600, but a drop into 400's and I start getting smoke out of the chimney.


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## James04 (Nov 30, 2007)

Gordo,

Ill tell you what I have found lately with my stove. Mine is the same design as the Oakwood only steal. Rolling a log in front of the thought will work. Only that log needs to be totally hot and glowing. Otherwise it is a crap shoot. However what I think it does is force the gases to go under the log and threw the hot coals. However unlike BJN if my stove top temp is under say 350 or so maybe a tad higher. I am heading for a stall. I cant comment on flue temp just yet though. I just installed a probe type thermometer only two days ago. It seems 500-600 is going to be the temp during secondary burn. I may need to move the flu thermometer a little higher. I have it at 18"'s and am getting some very high numbers when the bypass is open. Over 1000.

BJN,

Next time you are running at 300 for say an hour. Could you please open the top loading door and see if you are getting any shininess building up. This is what I have been experiencing. How seasoned is your wood? Some of mine may be a tad too under seasoned. I dont get any steaming or anything but my wood had only been split a month ago after being cord length rounds for two years. At least that is what I am told. This may account for the differences we are seeing.

James


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## tradergordo (Dec 1, 2007)

OK - well we all agree on one thing - the thick coal bed is key (didn't we already know that? haha).  But you guys might be onto something with the (well burnt) log ON TOP OF coals, pushed against the throat. In fact I just tried this tonight, and its burning nicely as I type.  But I do have everburn rumble (very slight, you really have to stick your head up by the air intake to hear it) and internal stack temp is very steady at 600.  Air about 1/2.  Seeing some smoke out the stack but not a lot.

FYI: Over 1000 with bypass open isn't unusual, I pretty much always wait for 1000 before dampering down.  My probe is also low though, I think its 14 inches.




			
				James04 said:
			
		

> Gordo,
> 
> Ill tell you what I have found lately with my stove. Mine is the same design as the Oakwood only steal. Rolling a log in front of the thought will work. Only that log needs to be totally hot and glowing. Otherwise it is a crap shoot. However what I think it does is force the gases to go under the log and threw the hot coals. However unlike BJN if my stove top temp is under say 350 or so maybe a tad higher. I am heading for a stall. I cant comment on flue temp just yet though. I just installed a probe type thermometer only two days ago. It seems 500-600 is going to be the temp during secondary burn. I may need to move the flu thermometer a little higher. I have it at 18"'s and am getting some very high numbers when the bypass is open. Over 1000.
> 
> ...


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## James04 (Dec 2, 2007)

This has come as a bit of a surprise. I have been watching the stack temps and I was shocked. Stove top at 400=stack700-800,top500=800-900,550 900-1000,600=1000-1100. This is of course when there is actual wood burning and lots of gases to burn. Once the load is down to coal stage the stove top and stack are dead on equal to each other. This seems like a lot of heat going up the chimney. Do you think this is right? Is it possible my draft is too strong? I have 36' of 6" insulated SS with a 30 degree off set before the last 6' of chimney. Or perhaps I need to move the temp probe up to 24"'s (its at 18"'s). What do you think? I am totally able to control the burn with the air control on the front of the stove. Even with a really aggressive burn going (650 stove top) I can cut the air and it will go into a smolder. I would think this means the draft isn't too strong.  I think this stove was really designed with a blower in mind. If you have ever seen one you may think the same It has a built in duct going up the back and out the stove top. Then that has a shield over that. Seems that, that is were all the heat is supposed to be generated. Any comments are welcomed.

Man I wish I had gotten a cat stove. Seems that nobody is selling them. I haven't seen one in all of the local and not so local dealers.

James


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## James04 (Dec 2, 2007)

Correction. Not 36' it is 33' not including the hight of the stove.

By the way. Don't misunderstand. I still love this stove. I don't want to discourage anyone who might be considering a Harman wood stove. I am probably just too fussy. That is typical for me. The Harman's have great build quality. More than 9 hour over night burns with 400-450 stove top temp and 375-400 in the morning. Plenty of coals to just add splits and shortly after close the bypass. Then theres the indoor grill feature which we both love. Then there is the beautiful looking Oakwood model. We went for the larger fire box of the TL300.

James


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## webbie (Dec 2, 2007)

James, I would agree that this design sends a lot of heat up the chimney when in secondary burn mode. I think the key is knowing to turn the air way down at that point (in many cases)....

Since the secondary burn starts in the back of the stove and heads upwards, you can only imagine that the top of the flame (the hottest part) is well on it's way out of the stove before long. But it is near impossible to build extra heat exchange into such a stove and still have it look good or fit into most rooms!

Maybe now that the process has been tuned a bit, Harman or - better yet  - Corie at Englander will come out with a central furnace which uses this method. The idea would be to have a massive heat exchanger up higher in the unit to extract that secondary heat.


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## James04 (Dec 2, 2007)

Craig,

It may sound crazy. But, even with those high stack temps. If I turn the air down too much (less than 3/16) I will get a stall. This would be with a fairly new load of wood. I think that, with so much wood (large fire box) off gassing there is just too much gas that needs to be burned. Hence the need to give it enough air. It seem the only time I can really shut the air down to say a 1/8-1/16 the total travel is when the load has burned long enough to not have so much gas being produced. Perhaps after 2 1/2 hours after loading maybe longer.

James


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## BJN644 (Dec 2, 2007)

James04 said:
			
		

> Craig,
> 
> It may sound crazy. But, even with those high stack temps. If I turn the air down too much (less than 3/16) I will get a stall. This would be with a fairly new load of wood. I think that, with so much wood (large fire box) off gassing there is just too much gas that needs to be burned. Hence the need to give it enough air. It seem the only time I can really shut the air down to say a 1/8-1/16 the total travel is when the load has burned long enough to not have so much gas being produced. Perhaps after 2 1/2 hours after loading maybe longer.
> 
> James



I have found with the Oakwood with a fresh load of wood you need to let it char up good before closing the damper. You can turn down the air with the damper open to control stack temps.

On your other question about low stove top temps for an extended time, yes I do get the shiney stuff inside the stove. This is due to a stall and the need to char up that load good. I'm still learning my stove and it's getting better. I have found, and I don't mean to be a smart ass, that if you burn the stove exactaly like they say in the owners manual, I have been having pretty good results.


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## swestall (Dec 2, 2007)

I'm in agreement on the stalling issues. I think the draft is Everything on this stove. Too much, thermonuclear, too little, stall and die. I've got a great chimney, but it is 8x12 and 15feet. This is proving to not provide enough pull on the Defiant NC where it was perfect for the Defiant and Encore CAT stoves. The way the air sipon on the Eberburn shoe is designed it needs a good pull to give secondary air to the refractory. Combine that with a good initial light off and there you have it. The coals and coal like wood on top preheat the smoke for this little air devil. I've decided to reduce my flue by lining with stainless at 8 inch oval and think that will provide a much greater pull, Hopefully I'll hit that sweetspot and not enter Thermonuclear land. In the mean time, I am getting things to work with the existing setup until the liner gets here. I do think that the cold air also is contributing to this positive result. It still takes a lot of work to get things to go right, with the sometimes stalls, getting up to just the right temp, etc. The VC/DW stoves with CAT do not have these issues. I think the Harman folks have taken this technology a little further and that their air sipons look to provide a bit more boost to the combustion process. 
As an aside, I happen to have an old pre-EPA steel stove in my shop: its called "the force". I was out there yesterday and had it fired up while my wife was in the house burning the Defiant. I had the shop up to 74 and used less wood with no smoke out the stack. Sometimes, it makes no sense at all. 
All to say: the testing and refinement of user friendly operating for our new and compliant stoves has a way to go. We need good stoves, that last a long time and put out minimal GPH while providing a load and burn type operating environment. 
Folks tell me that the Isle Royale and PE-T5 & 6 do that. What say ye: owners of those?
Thanks to Craig for all his hard work and Happy Holidays back at Ya!


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## webbie (Dec 2, 2007)

James04 said:
			
		

> Craig,
> 
> It may sound crazy. But, even with those high stack temps. If I turn the air down too much (less than 3/16) I will get a stall. This would be with a fairly new load of wood. I think that, with so much wood (large fire box) off gassing there is just too much gas that needs to be burned. Hence the need to give it enough air. It seem the only time I can really shut the air down to say a 1/8-1/16 the total travel is when the load has burned long enough to not have so much gas being produced. Perhaps after 2 1/2 hours after loading maybe longer.
> 
> James



Well, we are certainly learning a lot. It may be that this particular stove design (the original Acclaim), when "upsized" too far, does not turn down as easily as the original model. That is why it would make a great furnace! 

At the same time, I think it can be said with fair accuracy that buyers of the downdraft or crossdraft stoves should not oversize (no one should, actually, but these seem somewhat more sensitive).

In my old acclaim, when we turned it down we'd have dancing flames in the firebox itself floating around.....then I guess the final burn even after that was made when the fuel gases were sucked through the ember bed. We really rarely had a stall problem.


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## James04 (Dec 2, 2007)

BJN644 said:
			
		

> James04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with this. It seems to go with my theory stated above. The new load of wood is putting out massive amounts of gas and if the bypass is closed and the air cut down too fast it will choke and stall. I used to do it just as you state here. The problem is that if you wait long enough for all the wood to char. You have lost allot of the heat up the flew with the open bypass. I am trying to refine at this point. So far what I have found is as long as you get the new load hot. Not completely charred. You can kick in the secondary first with full air for about 5 min. then cut back to half then a little less than a quarter. That is the second notch on our stoves. This is were I leave it for overnight burns.

James


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## mettauercat (Jul 7, 2010)

The proof is in the pudding. What is exiting the top of the chimney tells me the truth of how clean the stove is burning. VC cat in all three chimneys in house and couldn't be happier. Large Winter Warm, Defiant 1945, Intrepid II. All of my Jotuls loved to go through the wood. Would not go back there again. I only burn when I come home in the evenings, I'am not trying to hold a fire overnight, just a little on the weekends. 3000 sq. ft. house and only burn 50-75 gals. propane a year with the help of heat pump and back up propane furnace. I don't fire the stoves when I'am in bed or away at work. That's why they made programmable  thermostats. Happy heating season is just around the corner, oh yeah it's supposed to be 98 tomorrow


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## swestall (Jul 7, 2010)

;-) Since I've installed the Mansfield, I have burned about 1/3 less wood; for two years.
I still have those VC  stoves in the basement. I did love the catalytic stoves, they burned great.
Everburn, I just have no time to spend babysitting and figuring out if it is, is not or might be sometime today or tomorrow.
The stoves with the burn tubes are almost automagic, I'd never go back.
Just as a sidebar, I burn an old stove with no converter or afterburner, etc in my shop.
I just burn it hot and there is no problem; but use lots of wood when I'm there; not that much.
I hope that in the time that's passed folks have figured out how to use the everburners, I'm waiting till I can afford a good boat to make proper use of mine.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 7, 2010)

vc said:
			
		

> The proof is in the pudding. What is exiting the top of the chimney tells me the truth of how clean the stove is burning. VC cat in all three chimneys in house and couldn't be happier. Large Winter Warm, Defiant 1945, Intrepid II. All of my Jotuls loved to go through the wood. Would not go back there again. I only burn when I come home in the evenings, I'am not trying to hold a fire overnight, just a little on the weekends. 3000 sq. ft. house and only burn 50-75 gals. propane a year with the help of heat pump and back up propane furnace. I don't fire the stoves when I'am in bed or away at work. That's why they made programmable  thermostats. Happy heating season is just around the corner, oh yeah it's supposed to be 98 tomorrow



When ya actually gonna start using those stoves for heat?  :coolsmirk:


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