# Deck Slowly Moving Down the Hill



## Mo Heat (Jun 4, 2007)

As I mentioned in another thread, my deck seems to be moving slowly down the hill in back of my house. In doing so, the uprights are splaying and the deck rafters (joists? whatever) are coming loose as the nails are slowly being pulled out where they penetrate the perimeter lumber and enter the joist ends.

I'm feeling like this may be over my head, maybe not, but since I don't know, it seems that way. Who the hell do I call?

Intuition tells me I may need a retaining wall so this won't happen again. But my intuition is often way off base. Of course, it took 20 years for the deck to get like this, so maybe I could just jack up the deck, move the uprights (and the concrete they sit in... can you do that?), and hammer things back together, maybe adding some of those joist hangers on the one side that is coming apart and that didn't use them (the other side attached to the house has them). 

That still leaves the patio slabs that are also moving. Mud jacking? How much is that? Will all this stuff continue to slide down the hill if its fixed without installing a retaining wall? 

How complex is a retaining wall? Can they create problems with drainage, maybe saturating the dirt behind the house and actually making the problem potentially worse if the wall ever "gives"? And what about the sewer and irrigation tubes that the wall would straddle? Can you just plunk a damned heavy stone wall on top of all that stuff? Damn, my head is spinning!

What would you do? Who would you call first, second, etc.? Insurance company, carpenter, landscaping, structural engineer, all of the above, who?

I figure if I call a landscaper that builds retaining walls, they'll recommend a retaining wall (duh!), whether I really need one or not. Reminds me of when I went to a surgeon asking if I should have surgery, he reminded me that he was a surgeon, and that's what he did, at least that was honest of him. 

A carpenter won't necessarily know if I need a retaining wall since he's a carpenter. Right? A structural engineer sounds expensive, but would probably know about all of the stuff involved, the hill and earth movement, the disintegrating deck, the moving and spreading patio slabs, everything. Right? Overkill? How much $ for one of those guys?

If I start calling these people, and getting estimates, how do I know they are reputable? I don't trust BBB, as I've had bad experiences with them before. IMO they are a joke. I know this is probably basic stuff to some of you DIY seasoned and trial by fire home owning commandos, but believe it or not, this is my first house and I've never really had to deal with any of this kind of stuff before.

Since I'm probably the only person in Missouri who has earthquake insurance, should I call my home owners policy people and ask them if I'm covered for "moving earth", which is how I think it is stated in the policy. If they said yes, can they typically recommend some reputable people and a reasonable course of action? Should I even trust them? They're conflicted, right?

Ain't it wonderful owning your own home? I keep having visions of the Tom Hanks movie, The Money Pit. Man, I've got to get beyond the hand-wringing phase on this thing. Help me DIY'ers, please.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 4, 2007)

Don't know jack about construction but here is an appeals court decision in Missouri that says if the policy is worded right your insurance company is off the hook if the earth moves for ya.

http://tinyurl.com/2b35kp


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## begreen (Jun 4, 2007)

Mo, did you ever get a qualified contractor to look at the deck? If I remember right, it was not put together too well. I'd get a few experts in to look at the problem before deciding on a course of action. It could be that the deck is falling apart due to gravity and improper construction. If the earth really is moving, I'd still want to get an expert opinion or two before starting off doing anything.


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## Mo Heat (Jun 4, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Don't know jack about construction but here is an appeals court decision in Missouri that says if the policy is worded right your insurance company is off the hook if the earth moves for ya.
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/2b35kp



Well, now I know what you do in your spare time, BB. 

That was State Farm, and they are notorious for denying claims. My company, Fireman's Fund, will hopefully be more kind hearted.  Right...


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## Mo Heat (Jun 4, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Mo, did you ever get a qualified contractor to look at the deck? If I remember right, it was not put together too well. I'd get a few experts in to look at the problem before deciding on a course of action. It could be that the deck is falling apart due to gravity and improper construction. If the earth really is moving, I'd still want to get an expert opinion or two before starting off doing anything.



BG, Which experts or which contractors? My problem is, I don't know who is qualified to give an expert opinion. Then I don't know who to call next. As a homeowner, I'm pretty much like a turtle on his back.


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## GVA (Jun 4, 2007)

For us slow folks....
Here's the pic's and discussion from the original post

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/7331/

From  what I recall there is movement going on and I asked the Mrs. to respond on who she would call first she still typng so we will see...
good luck


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 4, 2007)

Hey Mo.  I've been in Insurance Claims for quite some time now.  You could call your insurance company, I personally have never handled an earthquake claim, but generally for your homeowners to cover an event, it must occur which can be measured by a specific event.  For example, if there is a sudden earthquake, or hurricane it can be determined that the damage resulted from that specific event.  In your case, it has occurred over time, therefore, I am doubtful it would be covered under your earthquake or homeowners.  I could be wrong....like I said, I've never handled an earthquake claim.  For example, lets say a tree fell on your house and put a large hole in your roof.  You are responsible to have that hole covered until the damage can be fixed.  If further damage results because the homeowner failed to prevent further damage, the claim can be denied.    My reason for bringing this up is, you mention it has occurred over a period of time.  Now it is really bad, but nothing was done to prevent the worsening when it was first discovered.  Does that make any sense?  You could also talk to your agent  and they'll have a claims adjuster come out, they could probably advise you on who to call.  If you don't do something, it is just going to continue to get worse.  Good luck!


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## Mo Heat (Jun 4, 2007)

Mrs-GVA said:
			
		

> ,,, If further damage results because the homeowner failed to prevent further damage, the claim can be denied.    My reason for bringing this up is, you mention it has occurred over a period of time.  Now it is really bad, but nothing was done to prevent the worsening when it was first discovered.



It seems kind of futile to run out back and start pushing on the hill like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dam.   :cheese: 

Since I first discovered this, nothing much has changed. The problem is, it wasn't noticed (or discovered) until there was some visible space between the joists. I'm trying to do something, but I don't yet know what to do, because I don't know who to call.

Somebody, help me out here. Who do I call? Who is the expert on moving hills beneath patios and decks?

Applying the "reasonable man test" so popular in legalese, who would a reasonable man contact about a moving hill with a house attached? I'm stumped.

Is it as simple (if somewhat expensive) as getting a retaining wall built and adding some dirt?


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## GVA (Jun 4, 2007)

Try a surveyor.
When the area was first developed the area had one of those maps with the elevation thingys (lines, don't know what they are called) done most likely.
This may give you an idea of how much erosion you have going on in the area...
he at that point may point you toward a Geologist or someone that can help you fight the sliding that you have going on.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 5, 2007)

If was me Mo I would call a company that does foundations. Explain the situation to them and ask who they would suggest look at it. They deal in shifting soil situations all of the time.


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## Harley (Jun 5, 2007)

This is just a guess, but I think ultimately a retaining wall is what's going to have to be done.  Probably the first person I'd look to is an excavation contractor to have them take a look at it.

I'd also agree with Mrs-GVA - I think its unfortunately a big stretch to try to go the homeowner's insurance route, given that it seems to be slow erosion, rather than a single event.  I probably would not even call them, unless you are pretty friendly with the agent and speak "off-record" to see if they have any advise.  Just my opinion, but I don't think the insurance company would want to hear about potential risks (i.e., deck collapse, and someone getting hurt, etc.) on a claim which is realted to the problem.  The end result of your call to them might be: first - deny the claim, given everythin Mrs GVA spelled out, but sedondly: may either drop you or increase rates because of their percieved additional risk.


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## begreen (Jun 5, 2007)

Are we sure the hillside is moving? Is there other evidence? If not, a surveyor could be expensive. 

From what the pictures show me, I see bad construction, not earth movement. Wood moves. Decks shrink and swell a lot. If the wood was put up green, this might just be shrinkage. I'm not there to see the whole picture but generally when there is earth movement, there are other signs like cracked sidewalks, humps in the lawn, or other items pulling apart. 

As to where to start re:finding a decent contractor - check with the company that sold you the house. Explain the issue and see who they would recommend for a repair. Also, go to the best local lumber yard in your area (not a Home Depot or Lowes). Ask who they would recommend for a deck repair. Then have a few of the recommended contractors come out and look at the issue. It won't cost you anything but some time to meet with them. Let them draw there own conclusions as to what is wrong and what needs to be done. After they've said their piece, then ask them if they think that this could be earth movement or just bad construction.

If the consensus is earth movement, then ask the consulting contractors about who they would use to build a retaining wall before the deck is repaired.

My two cents - if the deck is properly tied to the house, it's not moving unless the house moves.


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## restorer (Jun 5, 2007)

If you really want to get an unbiased evaluation you need a geologist or soil engineer. It may seem to be just the deck and patio that are moving, but it's more than likely the house and foundation are also slipping. We are in a geologically active area and we have entire subdivisions of new homes that have moved as much as 10 feet down a hill, kind of screws up the property lines. What they are just now finding out that the movement was known years ago and certain properties were red-lined. The studies disappeared and building permits were issued... let's say, it is still being investigated, but now criminally.

There are specialists in the field. If you really want to lock down what's going on find the consulting geologist, sometimes they are moonlighting college professors, some surveyors have a consulting arrangement. They can give you a list of options for remedy. You might be able to negotiate something with the insurance company, but that's real slim. Here they refer to earth movement as an act of God, no coverage. Good luck. 

An after thought, it's Summer and Geology students usually have practicum field requirements, you might contact the schools around to see if they want to take on your property as a study..... Problem is you may get a lot more information than you really want.


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## Mo Heat (Jun 5, 2007)

GVA said:
			
		

> Try a surveyor.
> When the area was first developed the area had one of those maps with the elevation thingys (lines, don't know what they are called) done most likely.
> This may give you an idea of how much erosion you have going on in the area...
> he at that point may point you toward a Geologist or someone that can help you fight the sliding that you have going on.



I think you forgot the smiley face, GVA.  Geologist and surveyor was pretty funny, though. You were kidding, weren't you? The fact that I can't tell should tell you how clueless I am. And I hope you didn't think I was slighting the Mrs. or being snippy in that last post of mine. Just trying to inject a bit of humor into a personally frustrating situation.

And I do appreciate the insurance claims perspective (thanks Mrs. GVA). It makes sense that there would need to be an acute type event rather than erosion, but on the other hand, I was hoping for something out of the small fortune I pay for hazard insurance every year. Together with Harley's reco, I think I'll just skip the insurance route, at least for now, and go directly to someone who might shed some light on the soil and deck situation.

BB, a foundation company sounds like a good place to start, or an excavation contractor (thanks Harley).


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## Mo Heat (Jun 5, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Are we sure the hillside is moving? Is there other evidence? If not, a surveyor could be expensive.



Yes, there is some other evidence. But also it may just be erosion. I also notice stuff is suddenly appearing out of the dirt that I didn't remember out there.



> From what the pictures show me, I see bad construction, not earth movement. Wood moves. Decks shrink and swell a lot. If the wood was put up green, this might just be shrinkage. I'm not there to see the whole picture but generally when there is earth movement, there are other signs like cracked sidewalks, humps in the lawn, or other items pulling apart.



I'm not ruling anything out at this point, but from the overall look of things, the earth is moving. The deck may be junk, too, but only time and some expert carpenter will tell.

[qutoe]As to where to start re:finding a decent contractor - check with the company that sold you the house. Explain the issue and see who they would recommend for a repair. [/quote]

I didn't buy the house from a company. I bought it from an individual that swore there were a few nail pops, then I had to put a whole new roof on a year later due to massive water damage to the ceilings. Thanks Mr. Realor and your certified expert home inspector!



> Also, go to the best local lumber yard in your area (not a Home Depot or Lowes). Ask who they would recommend for a deck repair. Then have a few of the recommended contractors come out and look at the issue. It won't cost you anything but some time to meet with them. Let them draw there own conclusions as to what is wrong and what needs to be done. After they've said their piece, then ask them if they think that this could be earth movement or just bad construction.



I like this idea. Seems like a logical way to approach it.



> If the consensus is earth movement, then ask the consulting contractors about who they would use to build a retaining wall before the deck is repaired.
> 
> My two cents - if the deck is properly tied to the house, it's not moving unless the house moves.



Lots of good advice here. Thanks BG.


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## begreen (Jun 5, 2007)

Mo, I missed page 3 of the previous posts. Still have the dino ruler? Measure the gap again, and mark the exact spot of the measurement. This will give you a reference if there are any changes to the patio slab gap.


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## Mo Heat (Jun 5, 2007)

UncleRich said:
			
		

> If you really want to get an unbiased evaluation you need a geologist or soil engineer. It may seem to be just the deck and patio that are moving, but it's more than likely the house and foundation are also slipping. We are in a geologically active area and we have entire subdivisions of new homes that have moved as much as 10 feet down a hill, kind of screws up the property lines. What they are just now finding out that the movement was known years ago and certain properties were red-lined. The studies disappeared and building permits were issued... let's say, it is still being investigated, but now criminally.
> 
> There are specialists in the field. If you really want to lock down what's going on find the consulting geologist, sometimes they are moonlighting college professors, some surveyors have a consulting arrangement. They can give you a list of options for remedy. You might be able to negotiate something with the insurance company, but that's real slim. Here they refer to earth movement as an act of God, no coverage. Good luck.
> 
> An after thought, it's Summer and Geology students usually have practicum field requirements, you might contact the schools around to see if they want to take on your property as a study..... Problem is you may get a lot more information than you really want.



You're freaking me out, UR. Maybe GVA wasn't kidding about the surveyor and geologist.  :gulp: 

Man, if builders "lost" red line maps, that just sucks. With my luck, I'm on one of those maps. Interesting suggestions. If the local lumber yard deck builders don't sound convincing, I may go the extra mile and get some scientists involved.   :gulp:


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## Mo Heat (Jun 5, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Mo, I missed page 3 of the previous posts. Still have the dino ruler? Measure the gap again, and mark the exact spot of the measurement. This will give you a reference if there are any changes to the patio slab gap.



Will do. May be tomorrow. It's dark out there now.


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## restorer (Jun 5, 2007)

Not to freak you out, but you may be on one of the largest geological faults in America. Only recently discovered and very inactive, but there is movement. Movement is measured in years, decades, millenia. It may be nothing, but soil erosian, and loss of ground water, but you should find out.

A case of being screwed, 30 years ago, I worked for a College and helped set up a geology summer intern program. They did a geo-plasticity study for a county north of here. I lived in that county. I got the study when done and found I was less than a mile from a redlined zone, occupied by an oil refinery. I was looking at buying some real cheap land then and found it was in the same zone. I got nervous, because the study said there was active movement. Now it's thirty years later, the study doesn't exist at the state geologist's the county or the local communities. But those cheap land zones are now full of houses, and low density retail. If we get a 4-5 quake here, they will disappear. Not be damaged, but the soil will liquify and swallow the buildings and improvements. There is no bedrock for at least 300 feet, no one is safe, but that's not what the tales are from the developers and builders. 

One interesting, and positive side line is the same geological team recommended that a sand pit (that's basically a mining operation) be closed down when a certain level was reached. It was closed and the community wanted to make a park of the cheap land, but Walmart got an option and they did their usual push and built one of their super stores. Lately we have had some 2+ reichter quakes, it just needs to go over 3.5 and we get our park as Wally World disappears.


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## begreen (Jun 5, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good plan. If there is earth movement, dated, accurate documentation will be important as to establishing the urgency and extent of the fix.  It would be a good idea to measure the gap on a regular basis and document it. And if no change, you can relax a bit.


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## restorer (Jun 5, 2007)

OK, the link is to the comments for an article and broadcast locally. It's for property owned by Rulon Gardner, America's own heavy weight Olympic champ. I can't seem to get the article to copy, so you will have to back track to the article, but the comments are truly worth reading. This is what happens when you mess with Mother nature:  http://www.ksl.com/index.php/index.php?nid=148&sid=1155334


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## Mo Heat (Jun 5, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Mo Heat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now I wish I had measured and photoed the gap in the joists, too. I've got a feeling I can't wait too long on those. A lot of nail is showing up there. In fact, that is my first order of business. Getting some timber or something to prop up the deck so I can feel safe up there.

I just took some more photos. I'll post them below when they finish uploading and I resize them.


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## Mo Heat (Jun 5, 2007)

UncleRich said:
			
		

> OK, the link is to the comments for an article and broadcast locally. It's for property owned by Rulon Gardner, America's own heavy weight Olympic champ. I can't seem to get the article to copy, so you will have to back track to the article, but the comments are truly worth reading. This is what happens when you mess with Mother nature:  http://www.ksl.com/index.php/index.php?nid=148&sid=1155334



Too bad there is no Olympic contest for holz hausen building. I might have medaled from lack of participation and have the kind of clout to get on the news and city hall docket. I'd first sue for the roof I had to install a year after moving in, then we'd see what the earth movement brings.

I've watched Rulan during the Olympics and now in Mixed Martial Arts. He's fought a couple times in Japan. He won. Man is that guy strong and while lacking some in technique, he more than makes up for it in heart and hammer (with his hands). He's still learning the craft, but if he continues, he may just go to the top of that sport as well.

It's a bummer about his house. I'll bet more people lose more money each year on real estate transactions than in all the store front, bank, jewelry store robbers, and white collar crime combined. And I'm talking about the ivory tower boys (and a few girls now) too. In this one transaction, Roulan is out $220,000, not counting court costs, lawyers' fees, his time, and oh my god, what a headache it must be living just above that broken retaining wall. I wonder if he's even living in there? Is it safe? They didn't cover many of the details, seemed to mostly focus on the celebrity and the drama. Nothing new there.  :smirk: 

UR, you've somewhat validated my intuitive fears about the "design" of retaining walls. There just seems like there should be a lot of thought to a lot of stuff before stacking a bunch of stones on top of one another and I wonder how much of this my neighbor's school teaching buddy, who is building retaining walls for his second summer while waiting for his real job in the fall, will be thinking about. He may not have the experience or training he needs to do the job properly. 

Of course, most walls are probably pretty simple, small, and fairly straight forward, but what if there is some critical factor that is overlooked? Like collapsing my sewer pipe that will run beneath it? Is a plumber the only one who thinks about sewer pipe? Who's the best person to build a retaining wall, anyway? A foundation company? That might just be the one, BB. I think I will call a couple of those types and shine the moonlighting school teacher on.

But you see, I've already jumped to the solution. That's a classic mistake in systems analysis. I'm pretty much assuming I need a retaining wall. And I suspect anyone who builds retaining walls, that I get to come look at this problem, will simply recommend a retaining wall. Like going to a surgeon for an opinion on your aching knee and leaving the office with an appointment for knee surgery.

Keep those cards and letter coming. I am learning some things. Hey elk! Hey Sandor! Got an opinion for me?


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## keyman512us (Jun 11, 2007)

Mo...
...You "got some leg work ahead of ya"...I'll say that. I would start looking for a "certified public adjuster". This particular type of individual...USUALLY is the person someone consults after having suffered a loss...(usually a fire, flood or other major 'catastrophic upset') and has to deal with their insurance company. I would start to gather all the information you can. Are you in a sub-division? When was the house built? What was the prior land use? What is the topography? and on and on. This is quite alot to have on your plate....especially as a homeowner. Is your house "built on fill"??? And if so...what type of soil is it. 

General experience (as someone "in the trades") has educated me to one very important fact: The vast majority of housebuilders...don't have the first clue on "getting it right". Sliding decks, settling foundations, sinking lawns...and on and on...are almost always either the direct or indirect result of one thing: poor drainage. Groundwater, if not properly adressed can wreak havoc....especially, believe it or not...if you live on a hill. Proper drainage systems along footings, walls and slabs can be rendered useless...if they are not properly backfilled. Hopefully...a good all around drainage management plan can alleviate your problems...but if your house is built on "fill" whether it's junk soil or just plain "junk" in general (clay,tree waste,stumps, demolition debris... etc) means real trouble.

Your problem is quite broad...and your train of thought is correct: A landscaper, a carpenter, etc is not going to do much good. Your best bet is to find a good, knowledgeable, all around general contractor type with a background towards excavation. Being in Missouri might make it tough to find the right contractor...I'm sure there are tons of these type of contractors in California. Depending on what lengths you are willing to go to....in order to resolve the problem...you are definately leaning towards an "engineering" firm. I would try to consult with a firm that has experience, or specializes in "Dewatering solutions/Soil stabilization methods & principles"...I do work along these lines...but on a much smaller scale...and obviously for alot less money than they charge...because I don't have the certifications they do.


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## keyman512us (Jun 11, 2007)

Mo...
...After looking at the pictures in the other post...your situation isn't (from what I can see) all that worrysome...YET. I would seriously consider some drainage planing "all the way around the house". Keeping the ground stable...can only be done when you manage your "water problems".

Be carefull about how you build a retaining wall...you can actually make the situation worse sometimes.


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## Mo Heat (Jun 12, 2007)

Man, I really appreciate all the comments. I'm starting to have a more holistic picture of things in my mind, but let me update you on what I've done, first.

I bought a couple PT 4 x 4's and used the two 2 x 6's I already had to make a fail-safe support so the deck won't fall down (see: photo(s)). Now I feel like I have some breathing room.

I've got a landscaping guy coming tomorrow, but I suspect he will present a limited approach with limited emphasis on drainage and foundation issues. They do have a deck guy on staff, so I thought that was a plus. But since I made that appt, I've found someone else that looks like they might fill the bill better regarding drainage and foundation issues. Here's the web site. 

http://www.crowderconstruction.net/home/

I'd appreciate any comments, especially from you, keyman, as to the appropriateness of this contractor for my erosion and soil movement issues. And I suspect I'll either ask them to build a retaining wall, or they will suggest it. Mrs. Mo Heat is now sold on the idea of adding a bit of usable yard space at the back of the house where their is only a "wild" hill area now.

I didn't mention it, but I've got neighbors on both sides whose rain runoff actually comes into my yard. It kind of sucks, but at least one of them, and this was the worst one, put in some irrigation pipes for their downspouts (actually before I moved in). That helps a lot, but his side yard still drains mostly into mine as does the other neighbor. I believe this is probably a lot of my problem, although I have some side yard run-off myself, especially from the side where there is still one downspout that simply dumps onto the side lawn. All my other downspouts are fed into that 6 inch, black, corrugated, irrigation pipe, and dumped on the lower side of my "foundation fill hill". I even have a driveway drain and a couple other yard drains out front that join with several down spouts that dump into a pretty big PVC pipe (about 8 inch diameter) that really dumps some water below the hill when it rains. So there has been some work done here and things could be worse, but some additional work is probably needed.

I've actually got quite a little gully developing on one side where the neighbor simply dumps his down spouts onto his lawn and since I'm somewhat downhill from there, my place takes care of the water course. I'll try to take some photos of that, too, and post them for general interest.

Keyman, my neighbor, who's lived here from the hood's inception, told me my place was NOT built on fill, but I think he may be wrong. At the very least, they moved a bunch of dirt around, which maybe isn't as bad a trucked-in fill? I don't know, but I can tell that my hill has been altered to allow the house to sit flat, that's for sure. The land had no previous uses as far as I know. It was really west of the original developments in St. Louis, and I think they are only building on these ridge lines because they ran out of flatter spaces. I've got 100 year old, 80 or 90 foot tall oaks out back (I counted the rings on one I felled), so this was just unused space prior to the builder buying it about 19 years ago. He left the lots sort of big (2/3 acre average) and left the old trees for the most part.


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## Mo Heat (Jun 12, 2007)

BG, Here's a Dino-Ruler update for you. Looks like my slabs have moved another 1/2 centimeter since the last Dino-ruler photo. That seems like a lot to me.


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## restorer (Jun 12, 2007)

Mo:

I'm certainly not the best at land use and responsibility for drainage, but I think you have some issues with your neighbors. If the run off from a neighbor is causing erosion on your land, they need to correct their drainage problems. Because I am in a commercial zoned area, I am responsible for insuring that all run off ends in the storm drains and not my neighbors property, for the privelege I pay an extra two or three hundred in taxes. Because my parking is adjacent to my neighbors parking and there has been some bad blood with prior owners, I have a speed bump berm around my parking and a 4 X 4 dry well. The roof run off goes to the storm drain.

I think the contractor you show on the last post is a good idea. You should invest a little in exploring why you have so much plumbing in removing rain water. It may be normal in your area, but drainage seems to be an issue. If you have had extra rainfall the last year or so, you may have ground movement. Building on fill should not be a problem if properly done, but you are getting abnormal movement in my opinion. Do you have issues with moisture in the foundation walls, or water in the basement? If you have a sump pump is it running extra lately?

Stabilizing the deck should be the easy part. Stabilizing the ground looks like a problem, but is usually solvable.

My sisters house in Washington years ago was built on a slope over looking the Puget Sound. It had been an orchard, and was a huge blackberry patch. The contractor was anything but a water specialist and had no idea about need for drainage. Their deck started falling away. They first hired a contractor specializing in drainage, who not only solved the water problem, but was able to set up a PUD and the twelve homes put in a master drainage system for pennies. The deck was simply. Another contractor drilled 16 inch piers down 60 inches and hit "bedrock" concrete and rebar with a stainless post anchor. The engineer from the first contractor after the work was done said, "You won't have to worry about the house sliding now!"


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## begreen (Jun 12, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> BG, Here's a Dino-Ruler update for you. Looks like my slabs have moved another 1/2 centimeter since the last Dino-ruler photo. That seems like a lot to me.



If that is the same location, I would agree, it's moving quickly enough to take note. Mark that location permanently by scoring the slab. Document this movement well with date of photo and location. Maybe pick a couple other spots because they might be moving at different rates. Sounds like it's time to get an expert in, but again, ask around and get the best qualified person for the job. Crowder looks like a good start. Best of luck with the neighbors and getting this all resolved.


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## HarryBack (Jun 12, 2007)

Heck, Mo, lemme give ya my 2 cents worth.......currently, I sell stoves, pellets, and lumber. I design decks, and decipher code for the area builders. I do the calcs for lumber sizing and suitability as well. Im a licensed Construction Supervisor. In my earlier days though, surprisingly to many of you, Im sure, I also got a BSc. in....wait for it....Geological Engineering! yup.....and that includes surveying! My senior thesis involved analyses of tailings pond failures in southern Colorado, most of which failed due to inadequate cosntruction and liquefaction of the soils.....yes, the ground moved!

Anyhow....I DO NOT beleive your soil is migrating downhill.....if it were, you would see more evidence of soil movement such as gapping, sloughs, sinkholes, cracked foundations, massive vertical deviation of your deck, and your vertical supports would be far from as plumb as they seem to be in the pictures GVA pointed out..(thanks, GVA). Most likely what you are seeing is effects of water....the patio blocks will move apart with the freeze/thaw of the water in the ground, especially so if there is noting holding the blocks in place and the drainage is poor, the situation can also be exacerbated (sp?) by the type of soils you have. Your rim joists are moving (see pics) because of the water as well, and also very poor construction. When the wood of the deck and rim joists especially get wet, they swell. This pulls the nails out somewhat. When they dry, they tend not to go back together, the nail basically gets pulled away, as seen in the pictures. I hope I dont have to tell you the correct way to carry the joists in this case would have been to use joist hangers, much like the ones used on the ledger. As I see it, most of your issues are due to poor construction.

Ground movement is a funny thing. Its unlikely the ground is moving below the house without the house itself moving.....the foundation and footings would act as a shelter of sorts to stop this. Where you normally see ground movement is when youve a wide expanse of ground on a steep hill that unobstructed by walls, trees, etc.....think of it as a slow-moving avalanche of snow...you see avalanches on steep slopes where nothing holds the snow back.......you almost never see avalanches start below the treeline, where its held in place.  

Your slabs could be moving just due to traffic and the fact that they are sitting atop rounded gravel....much like sitting them on marbles. 

How to fix it? Well, you could hire a reputable contractor to put a carrying beam UNDER the joists, and use hurricane ties to attach them to the beam, and make sure he/she uses actual footings sized for the soil conditions and set BELOW the frost line. Me, Id rebuild the deck completely. 

I wouldnt hire a surveyor. Most likely the only surveying done on your property is a bounds survey, with no real topographical data. If there is some data, and Id be surprised if there were, it would cost ALOT of money to have to surveyor shoot grades and draw up a topo map. 

Ditto on the landscaper as well.....you'll get a retaining wall, etc, and maybe with that, better drainage, but possibly not. My money is get a good contractor over there.....talk to the lumberyard, talk to friends who have hired folks. Dont go with the cheapest Billybob you can find, you get what you pay for.


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## Mo Heat (Jun 12, 2007)

Thanks for weighing in HarryBack.

Since April 10 of this year, the slab I measured has moved an additional 0.5 centimeter, or half a centimeter. That seems alarming and there's been no frost in that period. And check out the ornamental gate. See it? It's downhill and to the right of that white trellis. There's a little sapling between the camera and the gate, so it's a bit obscured. It's in the bottom right quarter of the photo.

That gate was pretty much vertical when I moved in 7 years ago. Now look at it! It's leaning at an fairly steep angle. I mean, it looks seriously crooked to me! Isn't that caused by some sort of earth movement. Or maybe erosion? But if it was erosion, wouldn't the post just have the dirt washed away from it? Would erosion lean it over like that? Man, that bothers me! It's only another 15 feet or so to the house! (Take a deep breath Mo... breathe...)

I also notice a lot of dirt "missing" on that hill, pretty much from side to side, the length of the yard, but worse on the side with the gate and trellis. There's a lot of water that runs down there, by that gate, when it rains. And lots of other things that were once buried in that hill, and just below the hill, are starting to pop up out of the ground, like it's being washed away or something. And a big black irrigation pipe from one of my rear down spouts that was once almost completely buried (only about 4 feet of it showed, and only an inch or two at most poked out of the ground) is now almost completely exposed. Where's all the damned dirt going? Why? And how do I stop it?

If I just address the deck (thanks for those suggestions, BTW), it seems like eventually, there won't be enough dirt left out there to hold the house in place.


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## Mo Heat (Jun 12, 2007)

I also notice that if I place a log or something sideways on that hill, or even below the hill, it's not long before dirt starts stacking up on the uphill side. Like I've probably got a lot of dirt washing away with every rain. 

Since it rains a lot more in the spring here than most other times of the year, maybe that's what my problem is. Maybe the rain water running down my hillside is just taking all the dirt with it and somehow bending the gate and trellis over and pulling the deck down the hill somehow?


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## Gooserider (Jun 12, 2007)

First off, I would say you have issues with your neighbors property draining onto yours...  I know it's a big deal up here from a legal standpoint, and I would imagine it is in your area as well.  The law basically states that if you build something, you can't increase the flow of water onto an adjoining property above what would have flowed there "naturally", and you can't concentrate the flow.

While there are laws about this, and proceedings one could take, I would strongly suggest talking to the neighboors first and trying to arrive at a mutually agreeable solution - lawsuits don't improve friendships...

Secondly, while anyone can put up a website that claims anything, that Crowder Const. link looks like it is at least saying the right things - if they can back up their claims, they sound like the sort of folks that can help you out.

Lastly, I think a retaining wall (if properly done) would help you out, both in terms of preventing any earth movement and in giving you more useable space on the lot...  Just out of curiosity, where is your property line with respect to that hill?  One of the issues you will need to consider, and possibly research, though the contstruction guy should know, is what sorts of setbacks you need from abbutters...


Gooserider


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## HarryBack (Jun 12, 2007)

Goose is correct in this area about increasing water flow onto abutting properties, as well as concentrating the flow. This would cause all sorts of nasty problems with erosion of dirt, etc.......most likely your problem may be due to the erosion and/or inadequate footings. The dirt obviously doesnt go missing, it got carried downhill by water, most likely. Erosion is different from gravity migration of a hillside though. If the hillside is moving due to gravity, its only worsened by the water. More likely water is the transport method of your hillside. You'd need to mitigate the water issue and stabilize the slope by adding things such as landscape fabric, riprap, encouraging the growth of soil-conserving vegetation, re-routing the water (and remember, you cant re-rout it to the neighbors!).....theres quite a few engineering websites which cover slope stabilization.


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## Mo Heat (Jun 12, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> ... Just out of curiosity, where is your property line with respect to that hill?  One of the issues you will need to consider, and possibly research, though the contstruction guy should know, is what sorts of setbacks you need from abbutters...
> 
> Gooserider



The property line is about 150 feet back from the bottom of the hill, so likely there are no issues in that direction. But the sideways direction is another story. The hill starts between 5 and 10 feet from one neighbor and between 15 and 20 feet from the other neighbor, depending upon where on the hill slope you measure (top or bottom) since it tapers.

I don't think my one neighbor is concentrating any water since he installed down spout irrigation tubes to the back of his place that once drenched mine, but the other neighbor is dumping his roof run-off, through the downspouts of his gutters, out into his side yard, and that stuff is definitely coming onto my place. Is this considered concentration? I'd think so.

The good news is that on that side (without the irrigation tubes) the hill is remaining pretty stable, except that there is quite a little gully developing where both his and my side yards and downspouts (my only un-tubed down spout BTW) empty and coalesce into a single rivulet (see: photos).

HarryBack, do you think erosion could cause the tipping of my ornamental gate that appears in the previous post's photo(to the right of the white trellis)?

If you look closely at the first photo (below) you can see my neighbor's down spouts on the right side of the frame. You can also see a gentle sloping of the hillside towards my yard. And his fence base, combined with a gentle slope towards my yard, also insures that pretty much all of his side yard water comes over to my place. It then goes down the hill into the rivulet that is pictured in photo two below. I throw a lot of yard waste, dirt, rocks and stuff in that watercourse to try and slow things down, but to little effect.


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## HarryBack (Jun 12, 2007)

as per the gate, Mo...How is it anchored? Is it cemented in, or are the post just put into holes? See how the top of the gate is going downhill and the bottom is staying in place? Erosion and gravity? If the slope were moving uniformly, you'd see the gate move more or less plumb downslope. It doesnt make sense (to me, anyways), that the soil would slip laterally in layers.....usually the whole mess moves.


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## Mo Heat (Jun 14, 2007)

HB, I pushed on the gate today, and it wobbled easily. I'd say the posts are simply pounded into the dirt, and not very far at that. I think you are right about the gravity, erosion business. And that's good news, for the most part.

Update:

I had the landscape guy out two days ago. This guy's company pretty much does plant sales and installation, retaining walls, and decks. I figured he'd be pushing hard to sell me a retaining wall, but I was pleasantly surprised.

First, he was a really nice guy. About my age. No BS and a regular guy. He wasn't making any commission on a retaining wall and after accessing my situation concluded I didn't have much of a problem with moving earth and such. There's definitely some erosion as indicated by stuff moving around and appearing out of the ground, but that's about it as far as he was concerned. 

He liked the plantings I have on the hill for stabilization, even though they aren't stopping all erosion, they are slowing it down, according to him. I even have landscape cloth under the tough monkey grass on the hill.

His conclusion regarding my deck was pretty much an echo of what everyone has been saying here. It is poorly built. But he didn't even try to sell me a new deck. Instead, he recommended several things that I could do to fix it, and maybe improve it if I wanted to replace my flooring boards, which are really starting to show their age. 

He told me he'd recently replace his own boards with tongue and groove, PVC planks, and that I might consider doing the same, even though PVC is kind of pricey. He said my joists looked pretty good, and I could probably reuse them all. But the footers need to be dug up and replaced.

He recommended just setting the uprights on top of the footers. On some sort of little pedestal things, and not pour concrete around them. He said I could rent a jack hammer at Home Despot and do it myself, but it wouldn't be easy. He also recommended, as most here did, that I use joist hangers on both ends, and lag bolt the deck to the house somehow. It looked to him like the main 2 x 10 attached to the house had simply been hammered onto my cedar siding, and that's all that holds it to the house.

So basically, he recommended redoing the deck. I don't think he was much interested in his company doing it, or he wouldn't have started right in with the DIY advice. Either that, or he felt like giving free advice that day.

I then asked him for an estimate on replacing my RR tie flower boxes with some sort of stone and $5,000 rolled off his tongue as a ballpark estimate. That was about twice what I had expected, so it was a bit of a shock. Even more so when I attempted to translate in my mind what a retaining wall of much more formidable size and strength would cost. I suspect I'd easily be looking at 4 to 6 times that much, and started to feel nauseas, since Mrs. Mo Heat is really wanting to extend the back yard. Hopefully, those figures will discourage her, as well.

I still plan to get the erosion specialist guys, from the web site I posted earlier, out here and see what they recommend for the erosion. If they don't think a retaining wall is needed, then I'll feel like I'm off the hook. Then I'll just need to consider erosion measures, probably drainage improvements, or something, and redoing the deck, which I might attempt to do myself if I can get some help from hearthnet, my B-N-L, and father-in-law. Elkkimeg has offered to walk me through some of it on the phone if I get into trouble, and I suspect he's pretty good with decks by the suggestions he's made via email.

So that's the update. I thank everyone for their ideas, knowledge, and help. At this point I'm feeling like I'm not going to be subject to the worst case scenario as I was thinking earlier, so I am feeling pretty relieved and grateful.

< pointless whining > Now I've got the driveway repair guy coming tomorrow. The printer and router are finally working again as of today, so now I can mail in the rebate that will never arrive. The father-in-law's printer is still down, even after I sprung for two new ink cartridges. Doh! A couple trees that were damaged in the ice storm still need to come down. The A/C man is coming next Monday, but it will be hot in the house until then, except at nights, when we are getting some relief using a high velocity fan in the window (blowing out) to pull cooler air into the bedrooms. Not too bad at night, really, and the basement area isn't really bad at all during the day, if I can stay holed up here. The little car starting missing really bad my last trip to HD for the deck repair supports, and I barely made it home, but the hole the mechanic described in the oil filter of the family car was detected in time. It was only two and a half quarts low when I noticed the voluminous dripping underneath when the car was out of the garage. The oil is currently being soaked up by kitty litter. And those maple rounds are still out back waiting to be split, along with the Holz Hausen, which is waiting to be repaired. 

Got to go, the leaky shower drain is still waiting for me upstairs. I've put that off about as long as Mrs. Mo Heat will tolerate, especially in view of the broken A/C.  :red: 
< /pointless whining >


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## HarryBack (Jun 15, 2007)

glad things sound like they are getting better..........I detect a hint of optimism in that last post!


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## Gooserider (Jun 16, 2007)

Others might well contradict me, and I will be the first to say I don't have a lot of expertise on the subject, but judging by the photos, I'd be inclined to get a bunch of RR ties or landscape timbers, possibly something longer in the way of preserved logs (Telephone poles?) and build a terrace setup going down the hill.  More or less follow the existing slope, but build a 2-3' high retaining wall each time you dropped that much, and flatten the slope out in between each "step".  If you had a lot of rock, you could build from stone, but I suspect that wouldn't be as cost effective.

A 2-3' high timber wall doesn't need a great deal of engineering to design or build, and it would mean that no single step is having to restrain all that much in the way of fill.  I suspect a terrace system would require far less in the way of permitting / inspecting than a single wall would.  A timber wall should have more than enough durability, and would be simpler to build than rock.  It wouldn't expand the back yard in terms of 100% flat ground, but it would make the hill into more useable space for things like gardening, etc.

Terracing stops erosion fairly well since the "slope" of any step approaches zero, so the water has a chance to sink into the ground, or filter down through (designed in) gravel beds rather than rushing down over the slope surface.

You could probably even do it slowly over time, building another step every year or so.

The downside might be that it could make it harder to drag stuff up the hill, but I think this could be designed around with an appropriate set of steps or ramps.

Gooserider


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## Mo Heat (Jun 16, 2007)

Goose, You're almost reading my mind. I was thinking the same sort of thing, but hearing it from someone else takes it one step closer to seeming feasible to me.

I was thinking that I'd try and calculate how much of the cheaper 2 foot spec'd retaining wall stones you buy at HD that I need to redo my flower beds, and round up to the nearest pallet. What ever was left over after building the beds, I'd use to start piddling with as a first course, on a proper foundation of compacted gravel intended for such use. And in the mean time, before the lower tier, or terrace, was finished, I'd use the RR ties that I'm taking off the flower beds and lay them on the hill, maybe securing them a bit with 18" or 2 foot stubs of rebar pounded into the ground, to keep them from sliding. Once I finish the bottom 2 foot terrace (could be a couple years), I'd start on a middle one, removing the RR ties as I go. I think I would only need two terraces, each about two feet high to stabilize the hill.

Thanks for the suggestion.


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## nshif (Jun 16, 2007)

Sorry for the late reply, Ive been away. I have a situation similar to yours but its new construction and everything had to be to code. Ive built a house about 18' back from a fairly steep hillside, some of which is fill from cutting the house pad. While the house is not on any fill the deck (12'X4 ) supports are partially in some fill.  This required a soils engeneer by the building dept. The situation was made worse by the fact that the 8/12 roof of the house dumped all of the rain and snow melt directly towards the hillside and gutters were notpracticle due to the fact that when heavy snow fall would slide off the roof it would just tear the gutter off.  
This is what I was required to do. (keep in mind this is Ca, read earthquakes, and im acout 50 miles from the San Adreas fault.
1) the footings for the deck posts (6x6" ) Had to be 2'x2'x2' or deeper if in 100% fill ( one ended up being 4' deep ) with wet set pier blocks on top.
2) 6' out from the posts a retaing wall 3' tall with the top at  grade built from 6x6 pressure treated posts 6' on center with 3 runs of PT 2x12 lag bolted to the posts (on the uphill side of the posts) whith the joints staggered.
3) This was not required but I built a second wall about 14' from the 1st one with the top slightly above the bottom of the 1st one. for a more terraced look.
4 )The ledger for the deck joists is 2x12 PT and lag bolted 16" OC staggered top and bottom into the rim joist of the house. The outer beam is a 6x12 on top of the 6x6 posts mounted with post caps with diagonal braces (also 6x6 )at each post. Joists are 2x8 PT 16" OC with joist hangers at both ends.
So far (2 winters, one heavy, one moderate, and Ive had no ground movement at all. Although I think the design is a bit overkillweve only had one noticable small quake so perhaps for here it may prove to be worth it when really tested. 
Hope some of this info may help.


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## Mo Heat (Jun 16, 2007)

nshif, thanks for all the info. i'm new at this construction stuff and feeling my way, but i think i've got a pretty good idea of what your deck and walls look like after looking up some unfamiliar terms. 

- outer beam: is horizontal board that's parallel to the house wall plane that the deck is attached to;
- rim joist: I'm thinking this is just the last joist on each side of the deck;
- ledger: couldn't find it, but assuming this might be called an inner rim joist by the uninitiated. If so, then this is the board that all my deck joists are hung from on the house side, and which is simply nailed onto my cedar siding, as far as I can see;
- post cap: are these structural or ornamental? I only found ornamental post caps;
- wet set pier blocks: pier blocks that you stuck on top of the footers while they were wet rather than placing posts directly onto footers (purpose?);

Q's:

How did you attach your posts to the pier blocks? Or did you just set them free floating on top? I suspect they're attached to foil earthquake shear.
I'm thinking of just setting my posts on top of new footers, so they don't get dragged down the hill if it continues to erode. Bad idea?

I'm admittedly ignorant here, but if you attach the deck to a house structural member (rim joist of house) and then lag bolt the retaining wall to the deck posts, and then have an earthquake, isn't all that dirt and timber of the retaining wall (if it moves) going to rip some important part of your house off? Of is the idea that somehow all that inertia is probably going to prevent the retaining wall and the dirt uphill of it from moving at all? I think this (the strength of the house being greater than the strength of the hill movement) might be the part I'm having so much trouble understanding with my deck when some of the suggestions have been to simply fix the deck and "suck" the posts and everything else back into place using lag bolts as a sort of wenching system, without really needing to deal with the small amount of hill movement (assuming it continues to move at the current rate, which is about 3 inches in 19 years).


Also, were those two retaining walls pretty expensive? And is it cheaper to rebuild then in 20 years (when I'd assume the timbers will be pretty much rotten and needing replacements) than to build the thing with stone (or those prefab concrete wall pieces that pass for stone these days)?

Sorry for all the questions. Maybe someone else will chime in, too.


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## nshif (Jun 16, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> nshif, thanks for all the info. i'm new at this construction stuff and feeling my way, but i think i've got a pretty good idea of what your deck and walls look like after looking up some unfamiliar terms.
> 
> - outer beam: is horizontal board that's parallel to the house wall plane that the deck is attached to;
> 
> ...



Ill have to look through my picture arcieve and see if there are any shots that might help as most of this is now covered.
 No Prob glad to assist


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## Mo Heat (Jun 16, 2007)

Outstanding. Thanks.

I'm sure I didn't soak all that up on the first read, so I'll study it more, but it sounds like I want to avoid using those fake stone rocks for any retaining wall I might be building. My EE father-in-law told me as much, and also mentioned the need for footers, which I had never heard of, and none of the landscape people mentioned, or install, AFAIK.

You've also pushed me back toward simply replacing my flower box RR tie wall with RR ties (and / or PT lumber) instead of using that fake stone, but I'm not sure how Mrs. Mo Heat is going to feel about such a reversal of plans. She really had her heart set on a stone look, but replacing those wooden boxes with more wood is probably going to be much simpler than using fake stone. Maybe a bit cheaper, too. And I hear you about the 20 years down the road. That's a long, long time and I'll be lucky if I'm still in this place at that point. Unlikely, really. I've never lived anywhere for nearly that long.

Now I need to think about actually doing something about all this.  :ahhh: Time for a cold one...  :wow:


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## nshif (Jun 16, 2007)

Ill post a few pics that may help
heres the ledger attached to the house wall with joist hangers


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## nshif (Jun 16, 2007)

heres a post cap


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## nshif (Jun 16, 2007)

pier block with straps


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## nshif (Jun 16, 2007)

ledger on house side, Post side is the same only attached to the beam over the posts.


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## Gooserider (Jun 16, 2007)

It is worth keeping in mind that buried PT wood is pretty close to non-biodegradable, it will probably last far longer than 20 years, I'd expect the bolts holding it together to fail first...  (PT's long lasting properties is one of the reasons the eco-freaks hate the stuff.)

I've never priced the fake stone, but I'd expect it would be OK for non-structural uses like a flowerbox, but I'd be less inclined towards using it for something structural like a retaining wall unless there was clear documentation saying it was suitable, and giving instructions on how to do it.  The ancients Mediterranians used stones for terracing, and it worked, but they had a different  ground structure to deal with, and mostly did fairly short walls, made with LOTS of rock.  The other alternative to timbers that I'd consider might be poured concrete with a good footing.  It's ugly but lasts and could be covered by a stone facing later.

If I was putting your used timbers on the hill I'd want to dig them into the hill a bit, not just lay them on the surface - you need to slow the water flow down, and if you just put them on the surface you will get the water washing under them at the inevitable low spot, and making a gully.  If you dig them in a bit, and put the removed dirt on the hight side it will act as a better barrier to water flow.

I would absolutely attach the porch posts to the footer in some way, probably with a strap or post anchor in the footers.  The footers should be dug down to undisturbed solid dirt, below whatever passes for a frost line in your area.

Gooserider


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## begreen (Jun 17, 2007)

It may be my soil, but the underground portion of the PT 4 x 4 posts I put in around the garden were rotten clear through in 7 years. I had expected 20 years as well, but they didn't deliver. There's a new set of round treated posts in there now. Hope they fair a bit better.


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## nshif (Jun 17, 2007)

BG
There is 2 types of PT lumber, one made to be in contact with the ground (retaining walls, fence posts etc. ) the other for use off of the ground  ( sill plates, deck rails etc. ) Perhaps you had the 2nd type. 
The 1st type is brown and the 2nd is greenish.I used to know the technical names but dont remember right now. If need be I can find out.


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## begreen (Jun 17, 2007)

It was the brown type that failed. I think I have some of the sticks left. They were buried 30" into the ground. Most of what was in the soil just disintegrated. The round posts are greenish from the copper solution they treat it with.


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## nshif (Jun 17, 2007)

Accually I was wrong, there are 4 types, but only one appears to be rated for ground contact. It is ACQ (Alkaline Copper Quaternary ). the post you had rot had to be the old type ( CCA ) because the new stuff didnt come out till 2004. At least the way I see it. heres a link with more detailed info
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/new-pressure-treated-wood-decks.aspx


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## Mo Heat (Jun 17, 2007)

nshif, nice photos. It looks like you used all cedar joists and posts, and used some sort of plywood for the actual floor of the deck instead of cedar 2x floor boards spaced for water to fall through. Is that right? No PT joists? No 2 x 6's floor boards? Is that cedar veneered plywood? (I've got some of that under my front porch overhang and like it.)

Question on the lag bolts that attach the ledger to the house:

How are those attached? Are they actually lag "screws"? Or did you have access to the back of the ledger connect area so you could thread on some nuts and maybe some lock washers? I have no access to the back of my ledger board, so could I use some sort of "lag screw" that just screws right in there with no nuts on the other side?

Wow. With all this help, and elk emailing me, I'm starting to feel like I might actually be able to pull this thing off... one of these days...

Goose, Good idea about partially burying the RR ties on the hill. That does make more since. In California, I saw them used a lot for trail maintenance where they were drilled, partially buried like you suggest, and then re-bar was driven down into the ground, through the drilled holes, as a bit of an anchor. I might try that if I can get a big enough drill bit.

I read nshif's link re: PT lumber. Good lord! I can just see Billy Bob's Deck Building LLC employees shopping for one of the plethora of new PT rated lumber and PT safe fasteners at HD now... "Uh, hey Clem (Billy's brother), make sure you git dem G-185 electro galvanized fasteners so we don't have no copper galvanic electric chemical corrosion reactions to dem sub rated fasteners likes we use on our premium cedar decks. You knows I hates rebuilding decks in jus a few years."

Now to be a carpenter, you've got to understand advanced chemistry!? This means trouble if you ask me.


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## nshif (Jun 17, 2007)

Mo 
I gotta run to diner at the neighbors, Ill get back to you in an hour or so.


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## Gooserider (Jun 18, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> nshif, nice photos. It looks like you used all cedar joists and posts, and used some sort of plywood for the actual floor of the deck instead of cedar 2x floor boards spaced for water to fall through. Is that right? No PT joists? No 2 x 6's floor boards? Is that cedar veneered plywood? (I've got some of that under my front porch overhang and like it.)
> 
> Question on the lag bolts that attach the ledger to the house:
> 
> How are those attached? Are they actually lag "screws"? Or did you have access to the back of the ledger connect area so you could thread on some nuts and maybe some lock washers? I have no access to the back of my ledger board, so could I use some sort of "lag screw" that just screws right in there with no nuts on the other side?


Don't know about Nshif's specific job, but "lag bolts" are really lag screws, the giant wood screws on steroids type items, but by confusing custom they are called bolts rather than screws...  :-S  If you put those in properly, however, you will pretty much have to demolish the boards to get them apart.  You should choose a length that is just shy of penetrating the full width of the boards you are lagging together, or a shank (unthreaded bit) about the same length as the peice you are going through.  Put a clearance hole the diameter of the shank in the first peice, and a relief hole just under the minor thread diameter for the depth of the bolt in the peice you are screwing into, and use a flat washer under the bolt head.  Crank them down tight and you will have an assembly that is arguably stronger than if it had been a solid wood beam.



> Wow. With all this help, and elk emailing me, I'm starting to feel like I might actually be able to pull this thing off... one of these days...
> 
> Goose, Good idea about partially burying the RR ties on the hill. That does make more since. In California, I saw them used a lot for trail maintenance where they were drilled, partially buried like you suggest, and then re-bar was driven down into the ground, through the drilled holes, as a bit of an anchor. I might try that if I can get a big enough drill bit.



You can get through an RR tie with a 'spade bit' (i.e. Irwin "Speed bore") and it is also possible to buy extensions for spade bits, but it's a bit of a pain as after a couple inches, spade bits have trouble clearing the chips out of their hole and tend to overheat and / or bind up.  A better job can be done if you get one of the extra long auger style bits - the long spiral does a better job of clearing the chips.



> I read nshif's link re: PT lumber. Good lord! I can just see Billy Bob's Deck Building LLC employees shopping for one of the plethora of new PT rated lumber and PT safe fasteners at HD now... "Uh, hey Clem (Billy's brother), make sure you git dem G-185 electro galvanized fasteners so we don't have no copper galvanic electric chemical corrosion reactions to dem sub rated fasteners likes we use on our premium cedar decks. You knows I hates rebuilding decks in jus a few years."
> 
> Now to be a carpenter, you've got to understand advanced chemistry!? This means trouble if you ask me.


 Yep, it's getting more complicated all the time, although the industry claims to be getting better at finding a workable solution.

Gooserider


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## nshif (Jun 18, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> nshif, nice photos. It looks like you used all cedar joists and posts,    *No posts are all doug fir and joists are PT ACQ as I mentioned above (even though its not in contact with the ground winters here can be rather harsh ) * and used some sort of plywood for the actual floor of the deck instead of cedar 2x floor boards spaced for water to fall through.    *Rather then put my finish deck boards down in early const. I chose to deck it with plywood for a surface to set the scaffolding on, 16' walls, so as not to mess up the finished deck * Is that right? No PT joists? No 2 x 6's floor boards?   *Finished deck will be Trex with a metal underlay to waterproff below but thats a whole nother topic. Is that cedar veneered plywood? (I've got some of that under my front porch overhang and like it.)
> 
> Question on the lag bolts that attach the ledger to the house:
> 
> ...


*

Or know how to use the internet!*


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## jjbaer (Jun 18, 2007)

UncleRich said:
			
		

> OK, the link is to the comments for an article and broadcast locally. It's for property owned by Rulon Gardner, America's own heavy weight Olympic champ. I can't seem to get the article to copy, so you will have to back track to the article, but the comments are truly worth reading. This is what happens when you mess with Mother nature:  http://www.ksl.com/index.php/index.php?nid=148&sid=1155334



UR,

In my engineering opinion, it's not wise to build a brick wall that high as a retaining wall.......something that high and wide on a hill needs to be built of poured concrete........THEN if you want to, use a decorative brick facade but under NO circumstances should you count on that brick having much structural integrity.......


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## Gooserider (Jun 18, 2007)

castiron said:
			
		

> UncleRich said:
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Agreed, I'm not an engineer, but it is fairly well known that brick, concrete blocks, etc. has tremendous compressive strength, but virtually no shear or tension strength  Poured masonry is better, but not by a huge amount - poured concrete structures get most of their shear and tension strength from the steel rebar that's embedded in it.

Gooserider


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## jjbaer (Jun 18, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> castiron said:
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Yes Goose but with a one-piece poured-reinforced concrete wall, all parts tend to reinforce other weak parts that might want to (as I see in the photo) locally "bulge out"............there's NO WAY a stone wall that high, even if it's interlocked, can hold up against earth that wants to move......and that's what I see in the photo........the owner should really be going after the contractor who built the wall.........50 ft tall and made of pieces of stone.....YGTBSM.........think of a dam....it's arched backwards against the water so that the pressure from the water:  1) puts the concrete in compression (where it is strong) and 2) forces the dam against the side supports to prevent the entire structure from being dislodged  .......


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## jjbaer (Jun 18, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> BG, Here's a Dino-Ruler update for you. Looks like my slabs have moved another 1/2 centimeter since the last Dino-ruler photo. That seems like a lot to me.



Mo,

do you have a "zoom out" photo showing where those slabs are located that you're measuring....?


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## Mo Heat (Jun 18, 2007)

castiron said:
			
		

> Mo Heat said:
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Is this one good enough?

The slab I'm measuring is the one closest to the camera and on the right side of the frame. The deck post that's in the same portion of the photo is about where the corner of the slab ends, although it is just out of the frame.


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## Gooserider (Jun 20, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> castiron said:
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That movement would be considerable IF it was "REAL".  However I see problems with the measurment - first the equipment is not that great!  Nothing against Dino, but the specs on that ruler are probably not all that accurate to begin with.  Next you don't seem to have a good way of ensuring that you are always measuring EXACTLY the same place, but your slabs aren't perfectly straight, so you might just be measuring "noise".  Lastly, your slabs have rounded edges, so it is a bit of a judgement call as to just what the measurment points should be...  Bottom line is I wouldn't trust your measurments to be more than accurate than about +/- a full centimeter, so I don't know if there really is a significant movement or not.

I would suggest trying to permanently attach a sharp cornered peice of metal angle to each edge of the slabs and SCRIBING a measuring line across them so that you know exactly where to measure each time.  Alternatively put a small disk of metal permanently on each slab, and inscribe a crosshair on each one to define your measuring points (Note that if done right you can also use these marks to check for N/S movement as well as E/W)  By permanently attaching the markers to each slab, you will know you are measuring from the same point each time, and the sharply scribed lines will eliminate the doubt about where the points are.  Lastly, give Dino back to the rugrat, and get a good steel engineers scale that will accurately measure down to as good as your eyesight...

IOW, it's hard to do good science with junk data...

Gooserider


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## Mo Heat (Jun 20, 2007)

Now you've gone and hurt my feelings... and Dino's, too.   

But I get your drift and agree, but I can also tell you this, when I moved in here, those slabs still had the one inch wood in the spaces between them, and there was zero gap between the wood and slabs. And all the spaces were exactly the same. That was about 7 years ago, so while anecdotal, I'm confident that all that movement occurred in the last 7 years, or so, since I moved in here.

Still, I should probably get a gauge on how fast they are moving. I'll re-read your instructions and see what I can come up with. Thanks.


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