# Innovation in Pellet Stoves



## LuvMyPellets (Mar 28, 2014)

In researching all the brands it seems like there is little forward thinking within the industry. Manufacturers seem to be happy resting on their laurels and raking in the dough. No one comes to mind in this area more than Harman. No offense meant here to current owners they are a great reliable stove but how much do you think they are making on every P68. My closest dealer offered 20% off for every Harman for 2 weeks in October. One of the sales folks said "don't worry were still making plenty of money". My current brand the St Croix has been pushing the same old tired ass design forever as is almost every other manufacturer. My kudos to folks like Enerzone for the Eurostar. A well designed stove with modern features. Another one  is Travis industries for the Lopi AGP. I saw that burning in the showroom and they had not touched it for over a week. The glass was spotless. Any other contenders for new innovation.


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## rona (Mar 28, 2014)

What do you desire in your forward dreams for a pellet stove? Auto Ignition?  got that. auto dump of the pot? got that. Large fuel hopper? got that. Large ash drawer? got that. Do you want to be able to control your stove away from home? You can do that via computer or smart phone. Dependability? got that. Run on 12 volt if power goes out? got that too.
  Maintenance free? Nope all stoves require maintenance, cleaning stove and cleaning pipes are part of saving money.
  I have seen stoves that sold for over 4,000.00 in 20007 now are for sale for 2200  and  how much more is the Harman 68 worth now then 10 years ago? 
 If you have a proven product and have a demand  why change it ? If you want to revolutionize the market with a new stove  look at Quad when they came out with the AE.  The first few years were a nightmare.  It cost a large sum to develop a new stove and they can't capture the return on investment in just a couple years.
  If you look at the first pellet stoves they were very simple machines and it took a while before the concept caught on and got popular. As time went on the electric igniters  came on the scene and then the companies were forced to make advancements to keep up with the competition. 
   If you had one of the first pellet stoves and compared to the newer ones  you understand the progress made.


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## Mt Bob (Mar 28, 2014)

piazzetta prob. has one of the best burn systems out there.the new rikas and a few other european brands have really progressed.But they also have a large influx of cheaper(usually chinese) stoves,same as over here,so manufacturers have to try to balance out between lincolns and pintos,depends on what the market will bear.The harman system is very dependable,but the parent co. also sells low budget stuff.


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## Arti (Mar 28, 2014)

Hmm I sort of like my old _St Croix SCF 050_ and Magnum countryside, Kind of basic, No auto ignition but not much to go wrong either. I pulled out my Breckwell with the auto ignition and put the Magnum in the same spot. I'm much happier with the Magnum.

Using a pellet stove is so much easier than firewood I am one happy camper.


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## misterpat (Mar 28, 2014)

Arti said:


> Hmm I sort of like my old St Croix SCF 050 and Magnum countryside, Kind of basic



That's actually a feature I like about my countryside. Nothing fancy, just simple.


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## RhodyPelletRook (Mar 28, 2014)

It's like a good fishing setup. K-I-S-S


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## Bioburner (Mar 28, 2014)

The original pellet stove the Whitfield, was very simple. Have to clean burn tray after half day if burning good pellets. Manual start. One speed room fan. Three setting auger timer. No over fire sensor. No vaccum switch. Pain to clean. No fire sensor. 1983
Today a stove can be had that can control everything but cleaning out the ash bin. I screwd up and forgot to empty the bin after 6 weeks and the stove shut down unable to eject another ash puck. That stove was manufactured in 2006.


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## UpStateNY (Mar 28, 2014)

LuvMyPellets said:


> My closest dealer offered 20% off for every Harman for 2 weeks in October.



Rumor has it that Harman is developing an entire new mother board with "DIGITAL" controls and probably many new other features.  If that is the case Harman dealers don't want to get stuck trying to get rid of the current Harman stoves with analog dials.


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## Bioburner (Mar 28, 2014)

I don't know if that was the case in October of last year. Board sure could use some upgrading of components, maybe a cheaper DDM or data cable for computer analyzer like the Bixby. I would be in for the new board with that option and auto shutdown when linked to UPS.


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## Lake Girl (Mar 28, 2014)

How many and what type of changes are we likely to see if the new emissions regulations go through?


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## TonyVideo (Mar 29, 2014)

I can see an app on your phone making any changes from home or away. Meter telling you your level of pellets in the hopper. Auto start and stop time. Indicator telling you how full is your ash pan. Clean me soon, clean me now indicator. All from your phone. Efficiency indication. Monitor pellet use tied with outdoor wind and weather temps. Monitors forecast to show you anticipated use of pellets. Tracks your supply and let's you know when, where and how much it will cost. Auto place delivery of 1 ton or schedule for pickup. I think that is all for my list.


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## moey (Mar 29, 2014)

They could definitely be more efficient. The motto it doesn't cost as much as oil sure holds still.


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## DZL_Damon (Mar 29, 2014)

TonyVideo said:


> I can see an app on your phone making any changes from home or away. Meter telling you your level of pellets in the hopper. Auto start and stop time. Indicator telling you how full is your ash pan. Clean me soon, clean me now indicator. All from your phone. Efficiency indication. Monitor pellet use tied with outdoor wind and weather temps. Monitors forecast to show you anticipated use of pellets. Tracks your supply and let's you know when, where and how much it will cost. Auto place delivery of 1 ton or schedule for pickup. I think that is all for my list.



They've done it with the boilers: 
http://stokercloud.dk/dev/showmain.php?mac=diesel

It cleans itself for the most part... turbulators reciprocate to drop ash, compressed air cleans the burn pot. It will email me if there is a problem and I can log in from my phone to manipulate it fully.  I fill my 1200# bag of pellets and don't touch it for 2-4 weeks. When the bag is almost out I empty the 1/2 full ash pan and refill with pellets.

They really should be getting more of this on the stoves. My Kedel was less expensive than the Harmon pb105 and it was WAY behind on the technology front, albeit it is a nice boiler that will provide cheap comfort.


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## canuck_22 (Mar 29, 2014)

Making these too high tech scares a bit, my decision for opting for a P61A instead of the Lopi AGP was based on the fact it has 1 less motor.  How about the return on investment? some of these euro stoves are awfully expensive!


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## Bioburner (Mar 29, 2014)

canuck_22 said:


> Making these too high tech scares a bit, my decision for opting for a P61A instead of the Lopi AGP was based on the fact it has 1 less motor.  How about the return on investment? some of these euro stoves are awfully expensive!


I can remember saying the same thing when cars started to get computers. My current car has been in the shop once for repair (computer) 125k miles. Tells you when to change oil too. Never had a better ride or gas milage. But for a bad ignition switch that has been stopping cars in the worst of places been a good car (GM recall) Just wont be the first in line. Let someone else be the lab rat in getting the bugs out. Anybody remember how many problems Ford had when they went to Powerstroke diesel?


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## daman (Mar 29, 2014)

UpStateNY said:


> Rumor has it that Harman is developing an entire new mother board with "DIGITAL" controls and probably many new other features. .


Oh boy I can see it now that will add another $1,000 to an already over priced stove.


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 29, 2014)

To me, there are two advances that MOST stove manufacturers need to make to move into the 21st century. 

First, the continued use of smooth round tubes as heat transfer devices is an indication that they are still in the 'stone age'.  That technology, if you want to call it that, has been around since the 50's when I had such tubes in my wood fireplace onto which I built my fire.  Today, with the extruded aluminum shapes of every possible design, it would be dirt simple to have fins INSIDE as well as outside to present much greater surface areas for heat transfer.  The question of cleaning those fins, of course, comes up but again let's move into this century and have flexible silicone wipers wrapped ENTIRELY around the tubes that move back and forth either by hand or periodically by a motor.  This would greatly increase the efficiency where it is most lacking.

The second advance goes against the KISS principle but with us using every imaginable electronic device in our lives, why is it so hard to imagine embracing newer advances in electronics in our stoves?  Would it not be nice to look at a malfunctioning stove's LED screen and see that your vacuum switch is not being pulled in?  Then read how much vacuum you have, how much flow you have going out the exhaust, and if your snap disks are working? How about reading your hopper level, how often you are dumping pellets, is your igniter working, when did you last clean your burn pot or dump it, empty your ash pan, or your rpm's of your blowers?  Sure, these are 'nice to know' items but it sure would make life and troubleshooting easier WHEN, not IF, something goes wrong.  All of these things could be incorporated into the stove as well as controlling the stove for little more than what we pay now for a grossly over priced caveman controller made in China by some kid in a cardboard box in an alley in Shanghai.  We can merrily play with our IPhones, tablets, and wrist mounted GPS/exercise monitors but we can't envision the technology in something worthwhile like keeping us warm cheaply?  Makes no sense.


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## Bioburner (Mar 29, 2014)

daman said:


> Oh boy I can see it now that will add another $1,000 to an already over priced stove.


Why buy new when slightly used will do? Pellet stoves are as bad a new cars for depreciation. But if you computed in the savings over propain this season?! I figured at least a savings of $1500 this still cold season. Woke up to a outside temp of 12 degrees and that's 20 below average.


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## Wooden Head (Mar 29, 2014)

How about something that automatically closes stopping the entry of cold air entering the stove from the oak and the exhaust when the stove is off. This will need to open automatically when the stove is started.


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## TonyVideo (Mar 29, 2014)

Exactly the reason I leave mine in maintenance mode.


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## hoverwheel (Mar 29, 2014)

I have an older car, mid 60's, that I can fix anything that goes wrong with it. It is pretty, but the seats have one manual adjustment, from uncomfortable to slightly less uncomfortable. The radio is AM only. 

I have a newer car with all sorts of electronic controls and gadgets. It's very comfortable to drive, even the seats move around at the touch of a button. I can adjust the passenger mirror without moving but a finger. I know the gas cap is ajar by glancing at the dashboard. I can't seem to find the issue causing the O2 warning though. And it isn't the sensor. 

Guess which car I enjoy more.

Go ahead and develop new stove technologies, better burn systems etc. Just don't add useless gadgets for the sake of gadgets...


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## chken (Mar 29, 2014)

I'd like to see a lambda probe so that the stove can automatically adjust air being fed to the burn pot. That would be my #1 improvement. That can't be that expensive.

#2 would be just better information on the stove's performance. Actually, just tie it into an app on my smartphone so I can check the stove's performance. Make it optional, by adding a daughter card to your main board, so that those who want this info can get it, and those that don't, don't have to pay for it.

Basically, add some of the features of the automated pellet boilers to the stoves. Just like DZL damon's post. I love that his Kedel gives you all the specs on his boiler right from the internet, and that the Kedel techs can see your stove's performance from wherever, Denmark? and make an adjustment. Why don't some of these automatic pellet boiler mfrs like Kedel, Biowin, Okefens and others make stoves with these features? Okay, I think maybe Biowin does already. A Firewin. I wonder how much those are? $5k? Marc? You can automate pellet loading from a bin with a vacuum system like the boilers. The ash is compacted for 2 to 3 month emptying. Can auto clean. Can tie into hydronics.

http://www.windhager.com/int_en/products/pellets/firewin-1/

If I wanted simplicity, I'd get a wood stove.


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## dave2112 (Mar 29, 2014)

All the heating appliances create excess heat out the exhaust. Someone needs to develop and incorperate an astetically pleasing sterling engine into 
the chimney pipe. Then the wasted heat could be turned into power to run the stove or used for whatever. I no it's far fetched. And way beyond my brain power. But for the life of me I cannot think of a reason why not to.....


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## Mt Bob (Mar 29, 2014)

dave2112 said:


> All the heating appliances create excess heat out the exhaust. Someone needs to develop and incorperate an astetically pleasing sterling engine into
> the chimney pipe. Then the wasted heat could be turned into power to run the stove or used for whatever. I no it's far fetched. And way beyond my brain power. But for the life of me I cannot think of a reason why not to.....


 Rika already did,was not economically feasable at the time.


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## Bioburner (Mar 29, 2014)

I wanted the economy of wood without all the work and some of the convenience of gas. Buying fuel for $150 to $180 a ton and running the Harman or Bixby is getting most of my goals.


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## rich2500 (Mar 29, 2014)

I"m liking the advancements some stoves offer with the controllers,but mechanically I like it simple as possible.


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## Tonyray (Mar 29, 2014)

rich2500 said:


> I"m liking the advancements some stoves offer with the controllers,but mechanically I like it simple as possible.


yes... mechanically simple means less to go wrong...
Imagine Electronic repairs on new cars today after waranty runs out..
A computer on wheels will be an expensive technical fix..
no more screw driver and socket wrench..
don't get me wrong.. I like innovation as much as the next person but,
I don't see where just because it can be an App, it needs to be..
I don't think it's cost effective to incorporate wireless monitoring apps in a stove
due to the lower costs of Pellet stoves as compared to 20k and up for Automobiles..
can always tack on a Grand or so on a car but would be much more noticable on a stove that generally is in the 3k range more or less..
"buy this Harman model which u can see from your phone how many pellets you have or raise the temperature and feed rate before you come home but this model will cost 2,000.00 more than a standard Harman...don't think they will have customers falling all over themselves to pay extra.
Like lot of Phone apps, the're really kewl but necessary? most are not..
Pellet stove is a device to keep us warm.. doesn't need to turn into a home video game just because it can.


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## rich2500 (Mar 29, 2014)

Yeah I sure don't have a need to control my stove from my phone,heck I have never even used the remote for my stove,but my stove controller does have some nice features like timer,weekly programming which for the way I use my stove(supplement to oil burner) are nice features.If I used my pellet stove as my only soutce of heat, only shutting it down for cleaning then those features would be useless to me.


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## Enigma869 (Mar 29, 2014)

UpStateNY said:


> Rumor has it that Harman is developing an entire new mother board with "DIGITAL" controls and probably many new other features.  If that is the case Harman dealers don't want to get stuck trying to get rid of the current Harman stoves with analog dials.


 
My Harman dealer stated this was happening and that the stove would be able to be controlled by a smart phone app.  I will say the only really frustrating thing to me about my pellet stove are the manual dials.  It's the equivalent of watching a 12 inch black and white TV in 2014!  Having a digital thermostat built into the stove is 20+ year old technology, so I'm not sure why it doesn't exist in pellet stoves.  It certainly shouldn't be that difficult.  I would be very happy to select a temperature and not guess at what I think the dial is reading!  I also wouldn't mind a burn pot that somehow removed the ash from the lip of the burn pot, so the intense flame isn't directly on the glass in torch mode, causing the glass to become scarred, over time.


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## RKS130 (Mar 29, 2014)

UpStateNY said:


> Rumor has it that Harman is developing an entire new mother board with "DIGITAL" controls and probably many new other features.  If that is the case Harman dealers don't want to get stuck trying to get rid of the current Harman stoves with analog dials.



A Harman rep was at our local dealer earlier this year.  He told me that next year they will have a new control board with a touch screen.  I have no idea if it will have any substantive improvement, but the visuals, at least, will be new.


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## Enigma869 (Mar 29, 2014)

RKS130 said:


> A Harman rep was at our local dealer earlier this year.  He told me that next year they will have a new control board with a touch screen.  I have no idea if it will have any substantive improvement, but the visuals, at least, will be new.


 
It would be nice if those touch screens could be installed into the older stoves (for a price, of course), but that probably won't happen.


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## coobie (Mar 29, 2014)

LuvMyPellets said:


> In researching all the brands it seems like there is little forward thinking within the industry. Manufacturers seem to be happy resting on their laurels and raking in the dough. No one comes to mind in this area more than Harman. No offense meant here to current owners they are a great reliable stove but how much do you think they are making on every P68. My closest dealer offered 20% off for every Harman for 2 weeks in October. One of the sales folks said "don't worry were still making plenty of money". My current brand the St Croix has been pushing the same old tired ass design forever as is almost every other manufacturer. My kudos to folks like Enerzone for the Eurostar. A well designed stove with modern features. Another one  is Travis industries for the Lopi AGP. I saw that burning in the showroom and they had not touched it for over a week. The glass was spotless. Any other contenders for new innovation.


If its not broke Don,t fix it comes to mind.


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## Mt Bob (Mar 29, 2014)

On off switch,one knob,no draft control,does not leave me much to do.But for you guys that like to tinker,I'll leave some links.-----http://www.fumis.si/en/about-fumis/fumis-combustion-controllers/fumis-alpha http://www.newpellet.com/web/cataloghi/electronic controllers for pellet stoves.pdf


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## RKBAGUY (Mar 29, 2014)

rona said:


> If you have a proven product and have a demand  why change it ?


I'm inclined to agree with rona.

At a certain point in a product life cycle that the innovation ends because the form has caught up to, and in our case, surpassed the function.  Think about the bicycle - pretty much unchanged for a hundred years.  Yes, there have been incremental advances such as multi-speed gearing, brake lever shifters and quick-release pedals, even in materials like composites, but the basic form of the thing has stayed the same for a good long time now.  I suspect that'll be the same of pellet stoves because the technology and advances we will see are going to be incremental - mostly aesthetic or convenience improvements - since the core functionality of keeping pellets burning and putting heat into a room have been achieved.


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## Mt Bob (Mar 29, 2014)

Well untill I can haul 5 tons at a time (I'm building a tardis,not going well) I'll keep old faithful.But am considering a shoulder stove(smaller) and would want ignition by timer and t stat.


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## chken (Mar 29, 2014)

I like simplicity as much as the next person. However, if one reads these message boards, you'd know that many here obsess about pellets that burn hot, or pellets that burn well in their stove, or whether their flame is lazy, or whether it's time to clean. With a lambda sensor, half of the threads on this board wouldn't need to exist.


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## Mt Bob (Mar 29, 2014)

chken said:


> I like simplicity as much as the next person. However, if one reads these message boards, you'd know that many here obsess about pellets that burn hot, or pellets that burn well in their stove, or whether their flame is lazy, or whether it's time to clean. With a lambda sensor, half of the threads on this board wouldn't need to exist.


 Yep agree,but the problem(big one)is not like a boiler that is on or off,the programming/testing setup will be expensive,as installs,operating conditions pose a lot of problems.But heck,you are running one of the best setups on the market!


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 29, 2014)

RKBAGUY said:


> - since the core functionality of keeping pellets burning and putting heat into a room have been achieved.



I definitely think having an app to control your stove is just 'fluff' for those with more money than sense.  HOWEVER, we may have stoves that can burn pellets and put heat in the room but the truth is that they do it very ineffiiciently.  The manufacturers SAY that they get 80% but it is a 'grandfathered' number that is probably grossly overstated.  Who wouldn't want a pellet stove that TRULY gets 90-95% efficiency like the best other heating furnaces?  That will take some 21st century ingenuity in the area of heat transfer and better control of the burning process, both of which have been talked about above.  
''Don't fix it if it ain't broke'' just doesn't cut it anymore.  Also, after seeing over the past few years probably a thousand pleas on here, many from people who probably shouldn't have bought stoves in the first place, having one that TELLS you what's wrong would be a blessing to them and the repair man.


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## TonyVideo (Mar 30, 2014)

bob bare said:


> On off switch,one knob,no draft control,does not leave me much to do.But for you guys that like to tinker,I'll leave some links.-----http://www.fumis.si/en/about-fumis/fumis-combustion-controllers/fumis-alpha http://www.newpellet.com/web/cataloghi/electronic controllers for pellet stoves.pdf



Software intellectual property is big as companies find ways to protect what they have developed. No open API on this. Protecting big business ventures is number 1 when companies start buying up properties. We need a startup that allow 1 stove to be put together as a kit. You want simple plug it in set one setting and go. You add capability to match your needs. You want a thermostat ckeck. You want a multi fuel pot check. Variable distribution fan check. Water jacket check. Choice of outside looks ckeck. Slide in universal control panel of choice check. Universal parts no matter options check. Efficiency or max btu check. One model with the options. Assembled in 15 minutes. Think outside the box.   Inexpensive for simple but let's you grow with your needs and of good universal design. Can be broken down completely in 30 minutes for deep cleaning at years end. The only thing left after tear down is the backplane with oak and exhaust. Lift the hood so to speak and clean or break it down. A new disruptive product that will allow your average non technical person use it to meet their needs. It has to be an appliance that can be useful and understandable by the masses to gain universal acceptance and market share for true profitability. All of us here on this forum understand them but look at the number who are curious but haven't made the leap. It is a complex space heater as it sits to those outside this group. I think there is plenty of room for growth in pellet stove design and ingenuity.


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 30, 2014)

TonyVideo said:


> Software intellectual property is big as companies find ways to protect what they have developed. No open API on this. Protecting big business ventures is number 1 when companies start buying up properties. We need a startup that allow 1 stove to be put together as a kit. You want simple plug it in set one setting and go. You add capability to match your needs. You want a thermostat ckeck. You want a multi fuel pot check. Variable distribution fan check. Water jacket check. Choice of outside looks ckeck. Slide in universal control panel of choice check. Universal parts no matter options check. Efficiency or max btu check. One model with the options. Assembled in 15 minutes. Think outside the box.   Inexpensive for simple but let's you grow with your needs and of good universal design. Can be broken down completely in 30 minutes for deep cleaning at years end. The only thing left after tear down is the backplane with oak and exhaust. Lift the hood so to speak and clean or break it down. A new disruptive product that will allow your average non technical person use it to meet their needs. It has to be an appliance that can be useful and understandable by the masses to gain universal acceptance and market share for true profitability. All of us here on this forum understand them but look at the number who are curious but haven't made the leap. It is a complex space heater as it sits to those outside this group. I think there is plenty of room for growth in pellet stove design and ingenuity.



That sounds like a great plan EXCEPT these stoves require the GOVERNMENT TO SCREW THINGS UP FOR US ALL.  They need to be UL approved, EPA approved, NFPA approved, local fire marshal approved, insurance company approved, and heaven knows what other agencies get their fingers into the soup!  If we add piecemeal additional parts, it alters the stove and new approvals would probably be needed.  It's not like building a computer from scratch although I sincerely wish it were! 

The software COULD be made public domain.  There are a lot of very knowledgeable people out there who have developed public domain products like Open Office who would take on such challenges.  CUBLOC has a great line of programmable controllers and peripherals that offer their programming software for free as well as support.  Contributors can submit their creations for all to use.  There are many such sites.  Stove manufacturers make their software proprietary because that particular coding is what was approved by all the agencies at great expense.  They don't want you changing it and potentially compromising the safety or longevity of their product. 

I myself have written code in CUBLOC to mimic the functions of my Quads just for a challenge but have not installed it.  Not to say that I wouldn't in the future.  It would also give me more information about my stove's functions for easier troubleshooting and adjustment.  It can be done and done at a very reasonable cost.


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## RKBAGUY (Mar 30, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> I definitely think having an app to control your stove is just 'fluff' for those with more money than sense.  HOWEVER, we may have stoves that can burn pellets and put heat in the room but the truth is that they do it very ineffiiciently.  The manufacturers SAY that they get 80% but it is a 'grandfathered' number that is probably grossly overstated.  Who wouldn't want a pellet stove that TRULY gets 90-95% efficiency like the best other heating furnaces?  That will take some 21st century ingenuity in the area of heat transfer and better control of the burning process, both of which have been talked about above.
> ''Don't fix it if it ain't broke'' just doesn't cut it anymore.  Also, after seeing over the past few years probably a thousand pleas on here, many from people who probably shouldn't have bought stoves in the first place, having one that TELLS you what's wrong would be a blessing to them and the repair man.


I don't disagree on any particular point, but you do more or less echo my view that the industry is pretty well beyond the basics and incremental embellishments are what we can expect.  The increase in efficiency would be an analogue to using carbon composites in a bike - it enhances the basic design, but doesn't change its fundamental function.  However we ought to be mindful that one shouldn't necessarily need an engineering degree to own a pellet stove and that experience is a great teacher.  Heck, what in God's name would we do with all our spare time if we weren't here answering those thousand pleas from those who don't know what they're doing.  As someone who didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground this past October, this forum has been a wellspring of information and the learning of it all is part of the fun.  At least where I'm concerned.


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## RKBAGUY (Mar 30, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> That sounds like a great plan EXCEPT these stoves require the GOVERNMENT TO SCREW THINGS UP FOR US ALL.  They need to be UL approved, EPA approved, NFPA approved, local fire marshal approved, insurance company approved, and heaven knows what other agencies get their fingers into the soup!


On this point, we're in vehement agreement.


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## Snowy Rivers (Mar 30, 2014)

I bought 2 1991 model Whitfields a few years ago, and see absolutely zero reason to look at anything new.

Forward thinking ????

Additions of more electronics, if that's the deal is not the answer.

You can change the shape slightly, but most companies have good designs that fit most applications.

The more you over think the plumbing, the easier it is to plug the drain.

KEEP IT SIMPLE

The drive to add more and more computers to everything has only resulted in higher failure rates and a once simple and trouble free device has become a useless POS, that requires far more service and WILL FAIL


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## rona (Mar 30, 2014)

Snowy Rivers said:


> I bought 2 1991 model Whitfields a few years ago, and see absolutely zero reason to look at anything new.
> 
> Forward thinking ????
> 
> ...


The simple stove allows the owner to repair it with common off the shelf parts. Thus a service tech isn't needed. Along comes the computer board that has different software available. Ok I can  install, the software via a computer but don't have a clue if something is wrong with the board.


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## LuvMyPellets (Mar 30, 2014)

Almost every stove made now has some kind of control board. Making it more user friendly certainly can't be a bad thing. There is a guy on Ebay making a living repairing almost every brand of board sold so exactly how reliable are they now? Innovation in a pellet stove is not just a control system. More efficient and most important less maintenance is what I look for. Government regulation! As long as they allow some P.O.S to hang out a window with a fiire burning inside I don't think you need to worry about the government messing things up. Not everyone is sitting at home all day with time to scrape a burnpot and empty an ashpan. Judging by the number of pleas on the forum for immediate assistance not everyone is as capable of working on a stove as others. A cleaner burning stove with less mess to clean won't make anyone unhappy.


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## chken (Mar 30, 2014)

rona said:


> The simple stove allows the owner to repair it with common off the shelf parts. Thus a service tech isn't needed. Along comes the computer board that has different software available. Ok I can  install, the software via a computer but don't have a clue if something is wrong with the board.


Exactly, we're already past the point of no return now that every stove has a board inside, so why not make the boards a little smarter, to take some of the guesswork out of running the stove properly.


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## Snowy Rivers (Mar 30, 2014)

The popular stoves did use common mosfet timers to run the feed motors.

There were two controls, a feed rate and a fan speed control.

The run function had a couple snap discs to either satisfy the presence of heat and keep the stove running after the initial start up.  A one shot timer to allow start up with a cold stove, and a second timer to allow fuel feed (Heat settings)

These units were pretty much indestructible.

The reliability was excellent, and the failure rate was very very low.

The manufactures decided to place all the electrical; functions on a single control board, add fancy functions, auto lighting and diagnostic codes, and have these boards made in China for pennies.

Does the owner get a replacement part for pennies, NO, absolutely not   ! ! ! ! ! !

A pellet stove is a heating device, once computers are added, it becomes a irritant, and from their it goes down hill.

Part of the problem is that some people should not be allowed to operate anything mechanical, let alone something that has fire involved with it.

The stove builders have tried to engineer the new stoves to the point that they are idiot proof.
Not gonna happen.

The old stoves worked well, very very well, and were easy to use and fix.

Once it becomes innovative, it becomes complex, then the cost goes up.

Do the new innovative designs make the house warmer quicker, NO.

Adding a computer to everything is not where we need to go.

I recently looked at a new Washer Dryer set, and it is all computer operated, plus you can get an APP for your smart phone to run it from.

The machine can be started while you are away and have things all done when you get home.
The machine will send you a text mssg when its done or if there is a problem.

I joked with the salesman that " You start the machine from the office 50 miles away and a while later you get a text "  ( Water valve failure, house flooding, or balance fault, washer tearing laundry room apart)

Pellet Stove failure code, "Computer fault code 007 House on fire"

Old school is better here.


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 30, 2014)

We're all hung up on just the control board, for heavens sake.  The most important point of my first post was EFFICIENCY!  That's where we need the most improvement.  Yes, some of that can come from controlling the combustion better but the biggest boost in efficiency is in the heat exchanger area.  A stove with a few round smooth tubes just plain SUCKS as far as efficiency goes.  Sure, if you're paying a penny a pound for your fuel (Snowy   ), it's no big thing but for those who just paid $7 a bag for pellets, it means a lot.  You may have just bought the latest greatest stove or you may have a 20 year old stove.  Most likely they have the same lousy heat exchanger system.  I believe the AE has a cast arrangement with fins to present more surface area (maybe I'm thinking of another one) but most have 50 year old technology.  

A combination of a better, more consistent metering of pellets and air to achieve a constant burn along with a system to extract every possible btu would be the next generation of stoves.  I could care less how they wrap them to look pretty as long as they give 90-95 % efficiency.  

Of course, if you live in an area where you can get coal, like Maryland up into New England, you could get one of these, which was just posted on the nepacrossroads.com.  This baby when both stokers are lit will put out 180,000 btu's!  With fuel that costs less than $200 a ton if you pick it up, which most here do and it has around 15,000 btu's per pound.





Sorry, just couldn't resist!


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## chken (Mar 30, 2014)

Snowy Rivers said:


> The popular stoves did use common mosfet timers to run the feed motors.
> 
> There were two controls, a feed rate and a fan speed control.
> 
> ...


All great points, but you know, can we at least have a choice? Those who like simple, can keep buying what they like, and those who want a smarter stove can get one.


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## Tonyray (Mar 30, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> We're all hung up on just the control board, for heavens sake.  The most important point of my first post was EFFICIENCY!  That's where we need the most improvement.  Yes, some of that can come from controlling the combustion better but the biggest boost in efficiency is in the heat exchanger area.  A stove with a few round smooth tubes just plain SUCKS as far as efficiency goes.  Sure, if you're paying a penny a pound for your fuel (Snowy   ), it's no big thing but for those who just paid $7 a bag for pellets, it means a lot.  You may have just bought the latest greatest stove or you may have a 20 year old stove.  Most likely they have the same lousy heat exchanger system.  I believe the AE has a cast arrangement with fins to present more surface area (maybe I'm thinking of another one) but most have 50 year old technology.
> 
> A combination of a better, more consistent metering of pellets and air to achieve a constant burn along with a system to extract every possible btu would be the next generation of stoves.  I could care less how they wrap them to look pretty as long as they give 90-95 % efficiency.
> 
> ...


Harmans have the accordian style heat exchanger so there are NO  WASTED SPACES in between..
Every bit of the exchanger retains heat from 1 side of the stove to the other.
that was Smart Mechanical  Innovation with no APP.
the best thing they could do for a stove is save people money...
If it's at all possible, More efficient enough that your pellet supply would last twice as long as it does now.
Anything else would be just more electronic fluff for the Digital Generation to play with..
Just cause they make an app doesn't mean it's needed...
just think of all the thousands of Phone apps everyone tries when they get a smart phone and end up maybe using or keeping a dozen or so.
_The above Washer/Dyer App Snowy Rivers pointed out above is text book example of innovation  gotcha's that could flood your house [just so's you can show people
how you can turn on your washer from 3 states over....ya know, 1st on your block to have it mentality etc.... _No Offense pellet owners.. just my view of it all.


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## TonyVideo (Mar 30, 2014)

I would like an app. I can set the stove for a lower temp and be gone all day and when I am 30 minutes out raise the temp so it is warmer when I get home. Also if I forget to turn it down I can at least check. How about letting you know if there is an error when gone. I can check the notification and either restart the stove or shut it down.  From an efficency standpoint it can let me know if I am burning more pellets than my average. It can forecast with weather info what my expected use will be for the next 7 days. I can't store all my pellets indoors and have limited space inside so I can bring in the number of bags needed. I log how many I have purchased and how much I dump in and see if I need to buy more before the run on pellets at the end of the year. It can send an email to my dealer to drop off a ton or two when I get low. Monitors fan speed and give you an early warning when things start slowing down or intermittent. I am not in the room 100% of the time. A weeky event log emailed to you. All these things can increase efficency. I travel for work and would love to see how my wife is doing with the stove. It would give her piece of mind that I can still monitor the stoves and tell her when she needs to do something. She just wants heat.


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## SwineFlue (Mar 30, 2014)

TonyVideo said:


> I would like an app. I can set the stove for a lower temp and be gone all day and when I am 30 minutes out raise the temp so it is warmer when I get home. Also if I forget to turn it down I can at least check. How about letting you know if there is an error when gone. I can check the notification and either restart the stove or shut it down



There are plenty of internet-enabled thermostats that will do that today.   Those who desire it can have it without adding complexity to the stove.
. .


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## Tonyray (Mar 30, 2014)

TonyVideo said:


> I would like an app. I can set the stove for a lower temp and be gone all day and when I am 30 minutes out raise the temp so it is warmer when I get home. Also if I forget to turn it down I can at least check. How about letting you know if there is an error when gone. I can check the notification and either restart the stove or shut it down.  From an efficency standpoint it can let me know if I am burning more pellets than my average. It can forecast with weather info what my expected use will be for the next 7 days. I can't store all my pellets indoors and have limited space inside so I can bring in the number of bags needed. I log how many I have purchased and how much I dump in and see if I need to buy more before the run on pellets at the end of the year. It can send an email to my dealer to drop off a ton or two when I get low. Monitors fan speed and give you an early warning when things start slowing down or intermittent. I am not in the room 100% of the time. A weeky event log emailed to you. All these things can increase efficency. I travel for work and would love to see how my wife is doing with the stove. It would give her piece of mind that I can still monitor the stoves and tell her when she needs to do something. She just wants heat.


Sure.....printout spreadsheets out the back end, software updates, alerts when pellets sellers within 50 miles have a sale etc....
your deff  sound like a  21st century "apps for everything but breathing" kinda guy and so Hope for you sake it all comes true someday......
seriously, some good ideas but there goes the cost of the stove again...


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## TonyVideo (Mar 30, 2014)

To increase sales manufacturers have to appeal to a younger user who are used to expect it. I am 53 and see how quick my 4 year old grandson picks up on tablets and doing things he likes. As much it is nice to say I wish things were simple the younger set to them something like this is simple. Right now I would say pellet stoves primarily appeal to the 40 plus crowd.


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## Bioburner (Mar 30, 2014)

Tonyray said:


> Sure.....printout spreadsheets out the back end, software updates, alerts when pellets sellers within 50 miles have a sale etc....
> your deff  sound like a  21st century "apps for everything but breathing" kinda guy and so Hope for you sake it all comes true someday......
> seriously, some good ideas but there goes the cost of the stove again...


No really. The app will be doing the work. The Bixby has everything relating to stove operations, Bixcheck 2.71. Any Harman dealers or anyone with the DDM tool? Tell us how its ported etc.Add a smart internet thermostat and you have everything addressable via internet.


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## Tonyray (Mar 30, 2014)

TonyVideo said:


> To increase sales manufacturers have to appeal to a younger user who are used to expect it. I am 53 and see how quick my 4 year old grandson picks up on tablets and doing things he likes. As much it is nice to say I wish things were simple the younger set to them something like this is simple. Right now I would say pellet stoves primarily appeal to the 40 plus crowd.


have 8 grandkids myself, 7 are 3 and under] and amazed at what they can do video games and tablets also..
Pellet stove appeal for many is lack of wanting to pay 4x as much for oil or gas to heat the're homes.
that said, I don't think real young kids today would turn down a new bike just because it's simple and doesn't run on Electronics...
primarly due to the fact that they have access to plenty of other things that Light up at the stroke of the're fingertips.. Why else do tech kids today STILL want to play organized sports? Nothing digital there except the scoreboard...
It's not ALL about the visual world... but we digress here....
actually, just bought a new Harman in November so even if they invent one that opens the bag and fills the hopper, won't be upgrading anytime in the next 10 yrs or so.


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## Mt Bob (Mar 30, 2014)

Just some thoughts."accordian" heat exchanger-from quadrafire.I believe.Piazzetta uses this style.TJ is talking about combustion efficiency,something we all should be concerned with,long term.Many us and can stoves use us made controllers.Touch screens usually expensive to repair.Compact,layered smt circuit boards usually cost prohibitive to repair.More bells and whistles lead to cuts somewhere else(price competition),can anyone say"GM recall"?Most european stoves have phone capability and data connectors.Rika (and others) had/have daily,weekly/weekend internal programming systems(common in europe),nobody liked it(over here),but if can be done with an app,would be great?Just another step.Just some thoughts.


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## Snowy Rivers (Mar 30, 2014)

The 1993 Quadrafire 1000 has a finned aluminum heat exchanger that protrudes into the firebox with an equal number of fins in the air plenum.

This is certainly not new technology, but this sort or arrangement requires more cost to build as compared to the round tube welded tech.


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## Mt Bob (Mar 30, 2014)

Snowy Rivers said:


> The 1993 Quadrafire 1000 has a finned aluminum heat exchanger that protrudes into the firebox with an equal number of fins in the air plenum.
> 
> This is certainly not new technology, but this sort or arrangement requires more cost to build as compared to the round tube welded tech.


 I thought it was quad,wasn't totally sure,thanks.


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## Tonyray (Mar 30, 2014)

Wonder if being too close to massive heat would be counter productive for digital screens and such?


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 30, 2014)

Tonyray said:


> Wonder if being too close to massive heat would be counter productive for digital screens and such?


There's no massive heat on a pellet stove except inside and at the exhausts.  Mount it off to the side.  Still hung up on apps, I see.  
No need for expensive touch screens.   A keypad would suffice with the menu on the screen or perhaps just a row of LED'S?  Y'all are getting too way out there.  Did they legalize MJ in New England????  

Extruded aluminum tubing is being used everywhere now and would not be all that expensive.  Not saying that's the answer though.  Some serious thermodynamics have to be considered to suck all the heat out of the exhaust.  Just saying that is where the savings could be massive along with better control of burning.  I watch my stove flame go from just barely out of the pot before another load drops to almost up to the top after a load drops.  The heat variations cannot be conducive to the best heat transfer.  A metering system improvement is in order.


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## SwineFlue (Mar 30, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> A metering system improvement is in order



Definitely needed to get efficiencies anywhere near those for liquid/gaseous fuels.   I think it would require using an always-rotating, variable speed auger motor instead of the on-off ones we have today.   The more even burn would also be more conducive to the lambda sensor someone mentioned previously.


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 30, 2014)

SwineFlue said:


> Definitely needed to get efficiencies anywhere near those for liquid/gaseous fuels.   I think it would require using an always-rotating, variable speed auger motor instead of the on-off ones we have today.   The more even burn would also be more conducive to the lambda sensor someone mentioned previously.


I agree, SF, totally.  If you've ever looked at the stoker system on new coal stoves, they have a sweeping motion pusher that feeds new coal, which would be another option and would eliminate the inconsistencies associated with varying pellet lengths changing the bulk density of what's being conveyed by the auger.  I hesitate to mention weigh scales, which I used in injection molding, because someone will want to create an app for it


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## SwineFlue (Mar 31, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> the inconsistencies associated with varying pellet lengths changing the bulk density of what's being conveyed by the auger.


I wonder if shorter pellets would make for a more consistent feed...  the fuel would be more like a fluid.


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## hoverwheel (Mar 31, 2014)

Our life is frittered away by detail. An honest man has hardly need to count more than his ten fingers, or in extreme cases he may add his ten toes, and lump the rest. Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand; instead of a million count half a dozen, and keep your accounts on your thumb nail. In the midst of this chopping sea of civilized life, such are the clouds and storms and quicksands and thousand-and-one items to be allowed for, that a man has to live, if he would not founder and go to the bottom and not make his port at all, by dead reckoning, and he must be a great calculator indeed who succeeds. Simplify, simplify. Instead of three meals a day, if it be necessary eat but one; instead of a hundred dishes, five; and reduce other things in proportion. -HDT


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## Arti (Mar 31, 2014)

First there is Combustion Efficiency. This is how much of the fuel is turned into heat.

Next is AFUE which is a measure of how much heat contained in the source of energy is actually transferred to the living area. Sort of a combination of how well the fuel is burned and how well the heat exchanger grabs the heat.

If you go much higher than 80 percent AFUE then things get messy as the exhaust starts to condense. Slightly acidic water mixed with the by products of wood smoke is not desirable. Do I really want a catalytic converter and a condensate drain on my parlor stove?

Also to get to the higher efficiencies a more complicated and tighter heat exchanger is needed,Much harder to clean. This was experimented with in the oil burner industry with poor results. The maintenance costs on these high efficient oil burners was very high. 

Another waste of energy is running an inefficient electric motor 24/7. Sort of a catch 22  Efficient motors are expensive and if they fail this will quickly wipe out any Electricity savings . An example is Thelin that uses a very efficient electric motor system, Replacement cost is 4 to 5 Hundred for a motor compared to 200 for other stoves. Does this save any money, I'm not good enough at math to answer that.

We are trying to achieve efficiencies that the modern gas fired furnaces enjoy however that isn't comparing apples to apples.
Gas inherently is  a cleaner burning fuel also it is more consistent in composition. When burning pellets we get different types of fuel from every supplier and even the pellets from the same supplier will likely be of different composition. When you mix in corn or other items then keeping a consistent air fuel ratio is more complex.

I've seen the gas furnace industry mature from Light the pilot and watch it burn at 60 % efficiency to 95 %  squeeze all the heat out that we can.
Also a lot of  the newer gas furnaces use higher efficiency electric motors and better electronics to control them. This results in higher efficiency and more even heat. This is at a higher cost to the end user.
Can we increase the efficiency of our Pellet Stoves, Yes i believe so however it has to be of some benefit such as lower cost of ownership, more dependable or create a more comfortable living space.

Sort of like one of my elders said, This modern stuff sure is nice when it works right.. 

Off my soap box now It's time to fix that Red Check Engine Light  in my truck and see what that is going to cost me !!


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 31, 2014)

SwineFlue said:


> I wonder if shorter pellets would make for a more consistent feed...  the fuel would be more like a fluid.


The smaller the  better as far as consistent feed, I would think; however, from experience, I doubt that we could rely on any manufacturer to maintain a tight band.  Don't forget Third Shift and Monday mornings!


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 31, 2014)

hoverwheel said:


> Our life is frittered away by detail. An honest man has hardly need to count more than his ten fingers, or in extreme cases he may add his ten toes, and lump the rest. Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand; instead of a million count half a dozen, and keep your accounts on your thumb nail. In the midst of this chopping sea of civilized life, such are the clouds and storms and quicksands and thousand-and-one items to be allowed for, that a man has to live, if he would not founder and go to the bottom and not make his port at all, by dead reckoning, and he must be a great calculator indeed who succeeds. Simplify, simplify. Instead of three meals a day, if it be necessary eat but one; instead of a hundred dishes, five; and reduce other things in proportion. -HDT


Thoreau had a pellet stove?  Wow!  Bet it had round tubes!


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 31, 2014)

Arti said:


> First there is Combustion Efficiency. This is how much of the fuel is turned into heat.
> 
> Next is AFUE which is a measure of how much heat contained in the source of energy is actually transferred to the living area. Sort of a combination of how well the fuel is burned and how well the heat exchanger grabs the heat.
> 
> ...


OK, we'll just give up.  That solves that problem!  Back to sleep.


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## hoverwheel (Mar 31, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> Thoreau had a pellet stove?  Wow!  Bet it had round tubes!



He certainly did.

It was a first generation model. He had to make the pellets himself. They were a little larger than second gen pellets - usually ~ 16" long and a few inches thick. Usually chopped out of whole logs.


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## Lake Girl (Mar 31, 2014)

I'm sitting on the fence on this discussion.  I do like the KISS principle but I do have a stove with programmable capabilities.  Since it is a primary heat source, I don't use many of the programmable features.   I haven't played much with its set up either so I'm sure I can get better efficiencies.  I haven't wanted to mess with a system that works but I do have a back-up now so I'll be looking at that soon.  I still have to load it, empty ash and clean it.  To change any of those factors, it would require more energy use and more points of potential failure.  I'm here, it's here, this works just as it is...

For fuel consistencies, the Heartlands are one of the smaller and more consistent pellets I have used.  They do produce great heat.  The Trebios have a much greater variation in pellet length and have bridged with the fire going out if the hopper is not "stirred". 

From what I have seen, the more complicated the system, the more potential weak points (read more dollars on build and repair).  As Bob mentioned, the GM recall on ignition switch failure that has resulted in 12 deaths comes to mind.  While my Aveo is not on that recall list, my key also got stuck in the ignition and had to be replaced along with the wiring harness to the transmission.  GM is not alone in recalls due to electric/electronic system failure.  Can you imagine driverless cars?

While computers have enabled many advances in many areas, it seems to create a dependency that I'm not 100% comfortable with.  How many of us have run into a person who is unable to make change and relies on the register telling them (pretty basic math skill)?  Do you remember family phone numbers or do you rely on the programmed numbers?  We have a great big experiment going that involves our minds and bodies.  Brain dysfunction and disease has increased, obesity is on the rise along with autoimmune disease.  While many of us can cope with power outages, is that true of the general population?  GMO and food safety is becoming a bigger issue.  This winter is an example of what can happen when you rely on modelling and statistics - NG, propane and pellet shortage.  Your illusion of control with those apps may be just that, an illusion....


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## chken (Mar 31, 2014)

SwineFlue said:


> I wonder if shorter pellets would make for a more consistent feed...  the fuel would be more like a fluid.


Hmmm... if you continue along that train of thought, pretty soon, you're just feeding sawdust into the fire pot!


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## hoverwheel (Mar 31, 2014)

chken said:


> Hmmm... if you continue along that train of thought, pretty soon, you're just feeding sawdust into the fire pot!



Somewhere in my readings, I came across a thread where someone running an industrial sized pellet boiler commented that they "grind" the pellets essentially into dust and blow them into the boiler.

I could have misunderstood what he was describing though.


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## Lake Girl (Mar 31, 2014)

I think that may have been a malfunction of a feed system but could be wrong  iceguy 4 did try adding some sawdust from his shop into pellets for his boiler.

Dust is very explosive - explosion/fire here at local biomass believed to be from a static spark generated off a conveyor belt.  Piled biomass can generate a fire too.  Local bark piles from the pulp mill have caught fire in the past and they had to bring in water bombers to put it out...


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## peirhead (Mar 31, 2014)

Ok seems we are moving out of the realm of pellet stoves, so here's a link to a sawdust stove...I like it!!


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## DZL_Damon (Mar 31, 2014)

hoverwheel said:


> Somewhere in my readings, I came across a thread where someone running an industrial sized pellet boiler commented that they "grind" the pellets essentially into dust and blow them into the boiler.
> 
> I could have misunderstood what he was describing though.


 

That's how we do it! Very picky critter though! However we are burning it before the wood falls to the furnace floor, it's all burned in suspension.

The reason why I like my Kedel so much is it impliments MANY of the features my industrial boiler does for efficiency and convenience. "Soot blowing" (air vs steam), modulating control with a PID controller I can manipulate, O2 control with a PID controller I can manipulate, remote control (our boiler has been controlled from Sweden many times to save flight time from technicians), firing rate limits, stack temp read out with trending options on all parameters. An engineers dream!

However, the regular homeowner can set it and forget it too!


To get back to pellet stoves and EFFICIENCY more than an application feature there is much to be desired on that front from most the stoves I've witnessed personally. Exhaust temperatures are too high, o2 values vary with brands, heat exchangers ash up too quick, burn pots clog up too often. Without these options will you still burn wood? yes! However that is only marginably more sophisticated than my beloved wood stove.

I have seen first hand when I change brands of pellets my O2 controller will take over and drastically change my air and fuel rate settings! My friend with his Englander is stuck with only 1 or 2 brands that work "good" and a few more that work "ok". I'd like to bring our stack gas analyzer to his house to see the differences between all the pellets available in our area because they do make a LARGE difference! This can relate to combustion efficiency

As far as heat exchange goes, you could easily set up the stove to have more heat exchange surface area and even have a final stage pre heating cold OAK air. Temperature control in the exhaust could modulate a bypass around the final parts of the air heat exchanger to avoid condensation in the exhaust piping at low firing rates or start up periods. We've had air heaters with built in bypasses to avoid condensation for 100 years on industrial boilers. However it was even more important on those units burning Heavy Fuel Oil (aka Bunker C, HFO, RME 380+, #6 Fuel oil.... or basically sludge) since the high sulfur content of the fuel mixed with condensed water makes sulfuric acid!


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## RKBAGUY (Mar 31, 2014)

I think that sawdust stove is the anti-tech solution.


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 31, 2014)

DZL_Damon said:


> That's how we do it! Very picky critter though! However we are burning it before the wood falls to the furnace floor, it's all burned in suspension.
> 
> The reason why I like my Kedel so much is it impliments MANY of the features my industrial boiler does for efficiency and convenience. "Soot blowing" (air vs steam), modulating control with a PID controller I can manipulate, O2 control with a PID controller I can manipulate, remote control (our boiler has been controlled from Sweden many times to save flight time from technicians), firing rate limits, stack temp read out with trending options on all parameters. An engineers dream!
> 
> ...


Good info!  You made me think back about 'blowing tubes' in Navy ships.  Maybe we could blow tubes in our pellet stoves instead of the leaf blower solution.  A healthy blast of compressed air up the stack would suck all the ash along with it and you don't have to be outside where the neighbors can cuss at you.    My brother's destroyer was tied up at a wharf in Pearl right across from the Admiral's outside dinner party and someone blew tubes with the wind going right that direction!


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## RKBAGUY (Apr 1, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> You made me think back about 'blowing tubes' in Navy ships.


Not gonna say it.  I'm just not.


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 1, 2014)

ive been "musing" to myself about a "gassifier" pellet stove think "non-cat" reburn  would have to get past some serious airflow hurdles but i suspect a working non-cat pellet stove is achievable


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## moey (Apr 1, 2014)

When pellet stoves compete with other pellet stoves there will be a lot more innovation. They currently compete with oil and propane which are so much more there really is not much competition. You could have one of the crappiest pellet stoves out there and at the end of the year you say wow I saved a lot of money not I wish they could have squeaked out another 20% efficiency.


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## Snowy Rivers (Apr 1, 2014)

The one thing that comes to mind is, WHY do folks not look more towards alternative biomass fuels that in so many cases are very cheap.

Myself, I could really care less about squeaking a few more % of efficiency out of the stove when my fuel of choice is costing me 1.5 cents a pound

Currently, here in our locale, pellets are costing about 12.5 cents a pound.

I will say this, most companies that have a good working stove design are not readily going to change it simply for the sake of change.

There are several reasons for this too, 1- the cost of retooling their plant, or a vendors plant to produce the parts, 2- engineering costs, and likely the biggest issue is getting the stove re-certified.

Any time there are major changes in the design, other than simple cosmetics, the entire stove has to be re-certified.

That tag in the stove that reads Warnock Hersey, ahhhhh = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Squeezing a couple % more heat efficiency out is not going to pay the heavy tariff on the re-cert.

The manufs had to thrash through all the RED TAPE to get EPA approval, and they want all the goody they can get out of it.

Snowy


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## tjnamtiw (Apr 1, 2014)

moey said:


> When pellet stoves compete with other pellet stoves there will be a lot more innovation. They currently compete with oil and propane which are so much more there really is not much competition. You could have one of the crappiest pellet stoves out there and at the end of the year you say wow I saved a lot of money not I wish they could have squeaked out another 20% efficiency.


Very, very true, moey.  When the other sources of energy are gone or legislated into extinction, or pellet prices 'necessarily skyrocket', only then will people care about that extra efficiency.  It DID become a talking point this winter though when people couldn't find more than two bags a day at $8 a bag.  That time will come again and the company that finds a more efficient stove first will reap the rewards.


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## DZL_Damon (Apr 1, 2014)

RKBAGUY said:


> Not gonna say it.  I'm just not.


Our old joke when someone said they were gonna blow tubes was: "Who is Tubes?"


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## tjnamtiw (Apr 1, 2014)

Snowy Rivers said:


> The one thing that comes to mind is, WHY do folks not look more towards alternative biomass fuels that in so many cases are very cheap.
> 
> Myself, I could really care less about squeaking a few more % of efficiency out of the stove when my fuel of choice is costing me 1.5 cents a pound
> 
> ...


Having visited UL labs on several occasions to get our products rated, I can agree that it is a big hurdle in time, frustration, and money.  To justify the expense, one would have to make the complete leap to something revolutionary, which is not out of the realm of possibility.  People talked about the restriction for going above 80% AFLU because of condensation but they failed to mention that, if you do that, you don't need SS flue pipe anymore!  You can vent your stove, like high efficiency gas appliances, with PVC pipe going straight out the back of the stove through the wall.


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 1, 2014)

Snowy Rivers said:


> The one thing that comes to mind is, WHY do folks not look more towards alternative biomass fuels that in so many cases are very cheap.
> 
> Myself, I could really care less about squeaking a few more % of efficiency out of the stove when my fuel of choice is costing me 1.5 cents a pound
> 
> ...


 


this is a big reason for it , fielding a new model can be quite expensive , especially if its a "ground up" redesign. a company could have tens of thousands in "r and d" before the model is even sent to the testing facility where its going to be thousands more to have the stove tested and certified.

price of doing business


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## tjnamtiw (Apr 1, 2014)

DZL_Damon said:


> Our old joke when someone said they were gonna blow tubes was: "Who is Tubes?"


See someone beat you to it, RKBAGUY!   

I wonder if that would work, though.  I have a fork truck propane tank converted to a portable air tank with a big ball valve on top.  Install a few tubes pointing up the piping and put a valve and quick disconnect on the end.  Hook up the tank, pressurized to 130 psi, and open the valve!  Don't answer the phone or the door......


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## Snowy Rivers (Apr 1, 2014)

Back in days of the whifield stoves, they kept pretty much the same design for years, WITH ONLY MINOR COSMETIC MODS


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## hoverwheel (Apr 1, 2014)

Snowy Rivers said:


> ... Any time there are major changes in the design, other than simple cosmetics, the entire stove has to be re-certified.
> ..



Not just UL. I know of one software company that released service packs anyone else would call major Revs to avoid the cost of recertifying for Windows.


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## Bioburner (Apr 1, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> The smaller the  better as far as consistent feed, I would think; however, from experience, I doubt that we could rely on any manufacturer to maintain a tight band.  Don't forget Third Shift and Monday mornings!


Or when they outsource!


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## ScotL (Apr 4, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> See someone beat you to it, RKBAGUY!
> 
> I wonder if that would work, though.  I have a fork truck propane tank converted to a portable air tank with a big ball valve on top.  Install a few tubes pointing up the piping and put a valve and quick disconnect on the end.  Hook up the tank, pressurized to 130 psi, and open the valve!  Don't answer the phone or the door......


Our Kedel here has compressed air cleanout tubes in the back of the burn pot. There's 4 tubes, a solenoid, and a small air compressor that maintains 120 PSI. It does very well at cleaning the burn pot but that's all it cleans.


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## RKBAGUY (Apr 4, 2014)

Y'know, with all the technical knowledge, skills and experience among this group, wouldn't it be great if we could start our own 'crowd-engineered' stove project that would incorporate the latest in design and materials?  The parts could be fabricated on a group-buy scenario, and would ship in KD form for those intrepid DIY'ers who appreciate the hands-on approach.  Kind of like what many 3D printer kits do.  If any of you guys would be interested in such a thing, I could handle the web infrastructure to handle project management, document repository (for schematics) and e-commerce for group ordering.


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## hoverwheel (Apr 4, 2014)

That actually is a pretty good idea. I can volunteer some programming wrt embedded controller and device drivers, although I suggest an analog version of the controller as an option. 

Some of us live in overly protective states and it would be great if the stove could be UL listed. That adds overhead cost... Kickstart funding?


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## RKBAGUY (Apr 4, 2014)

hoverwheel said:


> That actually is a pretty good idea. I can volunteer some programming wrt embedded controller and device drivers, although I suggest an analog version of the controller as an option.
> 
> Some of us live in overly protective states and it would be great if the stove could be UL listed. That adds overhead cost... Kickstart funding?


More or less what I was thinking... at a certain point when we have a working prototype we could go to kickstarter.  Or just make the damned things ourselves.  As to the UL approval, I don't know if that's necessary for things you make and/or assemble yourself.  For example, the 3D printer kits are not UL listed, though some of the commercially-sourced Off-The-Shelf components (like the AC adapter) are, because those manufacturers obtained approval previously for that part on their own dime.  However I'm not a lawyer so we'd need to speak with someone who is knowledgeable in that area.

Anyway, if we get enough fellas here who are willing to chip in on the project, I'll be happy to build the website infrastructure which would consist of:

Bulletin board for engineering discussions
Project management utility for assigning tasks/milestones
Document repository for access to electrical and mechanical diagrams (CAD/PDF files)
Donation component to help us pay for web hosting, and other hard development costs like materials
Ecommerce to support sales/group purchases

The real key will be to find committed members here with knowledge and skills in the various areas adequate to the task.  But how cool would it be to have a crowd-sourced or 'open source' stove project! ! ! !


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## hoverwheel (Apr 4, 2014)

I suggest starting a new thread for it, requesting a sticky so it stays near the top, and post a wish list of features. See if some people bite.

(and post a link to it in here)


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## longlivethejeep (Apr 4, 2014)

Wow, saw this at the right time!  Love to see where this goes.  I'd suspect the many dealers/engineers of existing stoves on this site would likely scoff at the idea though.  It may not even be possible (legally) to sell a DIY stove.  Sounds like a good way to meet that lawyer... who's suing you for DIYers who've burnt their house down building it wrong or improperly.  Not to mention, homeowner's insurance may be difficult to acquire, or may refuse a claim based on such.  Not that I think it's a bad idea (personally, I LOVE it, and wish I had something to contribute to it).  For example, I've seen some people convert their stoves to include WVO.  Once the alteration is performed, insurance will no longer cover it.  just my opinion, however I am neither an engineer or lawyer.


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## RKBAGUY (Apr 4, 2014)

I wonder what Ben Franklin (who designed a stove himself) would have to say about concerns over regulatory compliance and product liability.  I mean, jeepers... seems you can't do a thing nowadays without the gummint having a microscope up your butt.

Does anyone know of an attorney who might be able to answer the question for us?


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## hoverwheel (Apr 4, 2014)

RKBAGUY said:


> ... I mean, jeepers... seems you can't do a thing nowadays without the gummint having a microscope up your butt ...



I almost went to prison a couple years ago for fixing my gutters myself, instead of hiring a contractor.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 4, 2014)

hoverwheel said:


> I almost went to prison a couple years ago for fixing my gutters myself, instead of hiring a contractor.


What??


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## Dr.Faustus (Apr 4, 2014)

I dont need a stove thats going to come on here and tell everyone how I lazily put off cleaning it another day because tomorrow it's going to be 30 instead of 15, or constantly uploading selfies of itself to facebook.


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## hoverwheel (Apr 4, 2014)

Lake Girl said:


> What??



The building inspector was suffering from Napoleon Complex. He wanted me to pull a permit and use a licensed contractor to perform a minor repair. Building Code does NOT require either so I simply fixed it myself. It eventually wound up in court. Towns here are are eternally in search of new revenue opportunities...


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## Lake Girl (Apr 4, 2014)

How did that court case go?

PS - where do you live just so I can avoid it...


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## hoverwheel (Apr 4, 2014)

Lake Girl said:


> How did that court case go?



I paid a $200 fine for not pulling a $200 permit. (for a $20 repair..)


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## BrotherBart (Apr 4, 2014)

There is more to this story. Like what else a building inspector was doing to be involved with a gutter repair.


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## hoverwheel (Apr 4, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> There is more to this story. Like what else a building inspector was doing to be involved with a gutter repair.



Not much more, really. The town is hungry for revenue and going after DIY'ers. They hired an attack dog to do it.


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## RKBAGUY (Apr 5, 2014)

hoverwheel said:


> Not much more, really. The town is hungry for revenue and going after DIY'ers. They hired an attack dog to do it.


Remember this the next time you go to vote for local officials.


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## hoverfly (Apr 5, 2014)

Yeah this Is where you get the local media involved.  Make a big stink, they go back into their holes.


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## chken (Apr 5, 2014)

hoverwheel said:


> I almost went to prison a couple years ago for fixing my gutters myself, instead of hiring a contractor.


You have to tell us what town to avoid. And that town code officer and all the town officers need to be voted out, if their goal is to raise town revenue by extorting the taxpayers.


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## RKBAGUY (Apr 5, 2014)

chken said:


> You have to tell us what town to avoid. And that town code officer and all the town officers need to be voted out, if their goal is to raise town revenue by extorting the taxpayers.


I think the question to be asked here is why the town needs more revenue in the first place.  Could it be that they've overspent the taxpayers money on things that are really not necessary and now they can't find the money?  Find out who the asshats are that voted for the things that have been driving the budget up, and then vote for the other guys.

Remember: "If you keep doing what you've done, you'll keep getting what you got."


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## CaptSpiff (Apr 7, 2014)

hoverwheel said:


> The building inspector was suffering from Napoleon Complex. He wanted me to pull a permit and use a licensed contractor to perform a minor repair. Building Code does NOT require either so I simply fixed it myself. It eventually wound up in court. Towns here are are eternally in search of new revenue opportunities...



That sounds odd. Usually the inspection process is limited to "new or improved", not to "repaired or replaced same".


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## hoverwheel (Apr 7, 2014)

CaptSpiff said:


> That sounds odd. Usually the inspection process is limited to "new or improved", not to "repaired or replaced same".



This was a customary repair of a 10' section of fascia (I said gutters because many folk say fa-what?). It was literally a matter of tearing off the old board and nailing the new one up and painting it. Nevertheless, the inspector spotted me "in the act" and fined me, which I contested. I'm not the only victim of this troll.

I'd love to return to RKBAGuy's idea of a community stove, however. This subject gives me indigestion and raises my blood pressure.


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 7, 2014)

hoverwheel said:


> This was a customary repair of a 10' section of fascia (I said gutters because many folk say fa-what?). It was literally a matter of tearing off the old board and nailing the new one up and painting it. Nevertheless, the inspector spotted me "in the act" and fined me, which I contested. I'm not the only victim of this troll.
> 
> I'd love to return to RKBAGuy's idea of a community stove, however. This subject gives me indigestion and raises my blood pressure.


 

fascia "aint structural" ask the guy to show you from what reg or code he is citing when issuing the fine. he'd better be able to quote "chapter and verse" if he can google it and see if it applies, if it don't , explain to him that if you have to fight this in court(and do so if he wronged you) you intend to take the county (or whatever jurisdiction he works for ) to court over the infraction.

ive seen the "The judge will dismiss it anyway" reasoning, my response was "if you know the judge will dismiss it why are you writing it up?" followed by "you realize that since you said that I will bring this to suit and call you as a witness and compel you to repeat that in court" guy said 'do you know how much paper work I have to do to make this summons go away?" I said , hey you wrote not me, but if I have to miss work to dispute it and the judge will throw it out by your own admission, you brought it on yourself".

he did the paperwork, had he not i'd have lit his arse up in court (my neighbor witnessed his statement)


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## stoveguy2esw (Apr 7, 2014)

now back to the community pellet stove , ask away guys . I know the operational theory behind pellet stoves pretty well.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 7, 2014)

stoveguy2esw said:


> now back to the community pellet stove , ask away guys . I know the operational theory behind pellet stoves pretty well.


Understatement


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## LuvMyPellets (Apr 8, 2014)

Is this thread still about pellet stove innovation or now a fictional town where you can't work on your own house?


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## Tonyray (Apr 8, 2014)

LuvMyPellets said:


> Is this thread still about pellet stove innovation or now a fictional town where you can't work on your own house?


Hang in there.. few more posts and should be over 'n done with..think they covered all the building codes..


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## hoverwheel (Apr 8, 2014)

LuvMyPellets said:


> Is this thread still about pellet stove innovation or now a fictional town where you can't work on your own house?



Why so hostile? I made an offhand comment that was arguably related to the the regulatory issues a community stove could face and several people inquired further about it. 

Small towns can be vicious little fiefdoms because the stakes are so small people will fight for their territory.

One nearby town fined a man for growing tomatoes in his front yard. Another fines people for using the f-bomb in public. Next door to that it is illegal to sell bottled water. Something about saving dolphins I think. All of those items are searchable by Google. They happened. Abuse happens.

Happy to return to the real discussion about stove innovations and community designed stoves...


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## RKBAGUY (Apr 9, 2014)

I think this digression about codes - which is a valid point - is emblematic of what's gone wrong with America because the nanny state government has so pervaded our personal lives you can't discuss _*anything *_without it having political implications.  And the unfortunate kneejerk reaction is that people don't want to discuss something so uncomfortable, so we sweep it under the rug and pretend we can go about our lives as normal, which only serves to give cover to more creeping control over our freedoms.  But as noted, that's a discussion for another thread.

That said, I'll start another thread about the Open Design Stove Project and see where it takes us.

*ETA: Here 'ya go.  Have at it!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/odsp-open-design-stove-project.127133/*


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