# Eletrical Usage Question



## Caw (Dec 21, 2020)

Our electricity bill went up $120 this month and we're trying to figure out why. We are new burners and my first thought was the blower but that seems extreme. I've found some threads in this topic but I'm having trouble  finding information on my particular model and wanted to run my math by you guys.

I have an Osburm 1600 insert with a blower. The blower has no information on it regarding its power consumption and I cant seem to find any info online. Ive seen a lot of other models that are in the 1-1.5 amp and 120v range. So I figure if I estimate 200 watts that's a safe bet (1.5 amp x 120v = 180 watts so round up).

If I run it 24 hours a day 200 watts x 24 hours = 4,800 / 1000 = 4.8 kWh x 30 days = 144 x $0.22/kWh = $31.68 a month. This calculation would be on high too...and I almost always have it on low. 

I also run a Honeywell tower fan to help distribute the heat. Thats approx 40 watts so same equation is $6.34 a month. 

So the maximum total cost of running the stove a month is $31.68 + $6.34 = $38.02

Am I missing anything? I feel like my numbers are right so there must be something else going on.

Thanks!


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## RobbieB (Dec 21, 2020)

Do you have Christmas lights up?


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## Caw (Dec 21, 2020)

Yes. I forgot to mention those.

There's about 4 strands of the classic tiny bulb multi colored lights and one white. I figured those were approx 40 watts each so 40 x 5 = 200 watts, similar to the stove blower. Maybe $30 a month. So stove + lights = about $70 a month if run 24/7. Still missing $50.

Is it possible those could be drawing more for some reason? Or that the snow is somehow messing with them? They are plugged into outdoor outlets. Maybe my estimate is wrong. I didnt think they'd cost THAT much to run. Hmm....

There's no way my blower uses more than 200 watts, right? That would be very high for a fan...especially on low 90% of the time.


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## begreen (Dec 21, 2020)

All the house lights have to be on longer due to the shorter days. The hot water heater has to run longer due to colder incoming water. Does the primary heating system come on at all? Are people taking longer showers?


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## Caw (Dec 21, 2020)

We're a family of 4 with the kids only being 5 and 3 so the bathing time is pretty standard. They get the usual and we get whatever we can whenever we can lol. 

The primary heat system is a heat pump with auxiliary electric heat. The main reason I decided to go wood was to avoid using it. Ive had it set to 60 since its been cold and I've never seen the thermostat go below 62. With the stove running on a cold day it's usually 68-72 in the far rooms and 72-78 close by. 

The lights are all LED inside so those don't concern me much but thats interesting about the water heater...that never crossed my mind. We just had it replaced about 3 months ago. Its just a basic AO Smith model, nothing fancy. But it is fairly cold in the basement as the stove is on the first floor. Maybe its chugging to keep the water warm? We have a well so its definitely cold water.


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## Solarguy3500 (Dec 21, 2020)

Caw said:


> Our electricity bill went up $120 this month and we're trying to figure out why. We are new burners and my first thought was the blower but that seems extreme. I've found some threads in this topic but I'm having trouble  finding information on my particular model and wanted to run my math by you guys.
> 
> I have an Osburm 1600 insert with a blower. The blower has no information on it regarding its power consumption and I cant seem to find any info online. Ive seen a lot of other models that are in the 1-1.5 amp and 120v range. So I figure if I estimate 200 watts that's a safe bet (1.5 amp x 120v = 180 watts so round up).
> 
> ...



I think your math is correct, so there might be something else going on in the house. Do you have any electric baseboard heaters, maybe in a bedroom that is unused that might be coming on because of the cold weather? Do you have a mini split? An old dehumidifier in a basement or crawlspace that is failing could be a culprit?

I am in the process of installing my Osburn 3500 insert and I'm not sure if the blower is the same model as yours. I have an energy consumption monitoring device installed on my electric panel called Curb that allows me to see real-time energy usage in my house. If your blower is the same as mine, I could plug in my blower and measure the electric usage and tell you how much energy it uses. Does your blower have a model number on it?


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## Caw (Dec 21, 2020)

Its actually pretty remarkable that it has no markings. I've found it online though here:









						Osburn 1600 Insert Complete Blower Assembly (SE36003)
					

Replacement 120 CFM Convection Blower Assembly for Osburn Woodstoves. OEM Osburn part # SE36003




					www.stove-parts-unlimited.com
				




Even for your larger stove I cant imagine it's more than 200 watts.

So my basement is unfinished. I just went down there for some wood and its about 50 degrees down there right now. Doesn't seem abnormal for the winter and the new water heater should have good insulation.

I have an ecobee thermostat that I use for the heat pump. I just have it set to 60 (using the average temps of the far rooms in the house in relation to the stove) in case of emergency but like I've said I've never seen it dip past 62. Maybe there's a thermostat on the unit itself somewhere that kicks it on? That would be strange. The basement shouldn't require heat.

No other forms of heat in the house that I know of. Just the stove and heat pump/coils. We do have a dehumidifier downstairs but its a small unit and doesn't need to run often.


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## begreen (Dec 21, 2020)

The blower more than likely uses about 80-100w.


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## Solarguy3500 (Dec 21, 2020)

Caw said:


> Its actually pretty remarkable that it has no markings. I've found it online though here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like my stove uses a 144 CFM blower with a different model number. Just for giggles, I'll try plugging it in tomorrow and see what it uses, but I suspect @begreen is right. It's probably in the 80-100W range


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## Caw (Dec 21, 2020)

Solarguy3500 said:


> I suspect @begreen is right.



Shocker!


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## mcdougy (Dec 21, 2020)

Hrv?


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## marty319 (Dec 21, 2020)

Gordon up all night watching animal planet


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## Caw (Dec 21, 2020)

Definitely no HRV here. It's just an older Trane XR-13 heat pump that runs on R22 (ugh) with resistance coil backup. 

Can't wait to replace the ENTIRE SYSTEM when it breaks to R410a. Lol.


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## Caw (Dec 21, 2020)

marty319 said:


> Gordon up all night watching animal planet



Nope he's passed out on the floor in the stove room! He'll be crushing my legs soon lol.


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## mcdougy (Dec 21, 2020)

By the looks of that dog......grow lights??? Hahaha
Gordon looks relaxed


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## Caw (Dec 21, 2020)

Gordon is relaxed about 23 hours of the day. The food bill isn't pretty but he's the best dog. He's got another 30-50 lbs or so more to grow. Maybe I'll start selling dog rides to pay the electric bill.

This is his tired face. I think it describes how all us parents feel during the pandemic pretty accurately lol.


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## mcdougy (Dec 21, 2020)

Thats quite the pooch.....no circ pump or anything? You will find the culprit. My guess is thats its something that uses electricity.... but its something drawing a fair bit.   Or the utility company never actually read the meter till this month and played catch up on you?


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## hansenjw (Dec 21, 2020)

It must be something heat-related. Nothing else uses that much electricity. Well, and electric cars. You don’t have an electric car do you? I probably use about double electricity for my car in the winter. I’ll bet it’s the electric backup in your heat pump though. That would easily account for the huge increase, and you probably wouldn’t notice if it were running.


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## heat seeker (Dec 22, 2020)

Perhaps the ignitor on your stove is staying on? I think they are about 150-200 watts. Too late in the night for me to do math. 

If you have a well, maybe the motor is running excessively, due to a leak.


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## Caw (Dec 22, 2020)

Hmm. Electric stove but it seems to be working properly. No electric car. 

I do have well, thats an interesting idea. I dont hear anything running in the basement but maybe the pump itself. Thats an interesting idea. We haven't had any water issues though outside of the new water heater recently. Ill take a peak at the pressure today and see. 

The resistance heater back up for the heat pump make the most sense. I just dont understand why they would be coming on. Its hasn't dipped below the thermostat setting once since I started burning this year. Closest its ever been is 2 degrees. I decided to turn the system off completely and see if that makes a difference. If it does maybe I gotta get the HVAV guy out here to see why it would kick on incorrectly.


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## Caw (Dec 22, 2020)

Could the heat pump be kicking on in a defrost mode? We have had cold temps and snow lately.  This is my first home with a heat pump actually so im still fairly new to it, only been here 8 months now. If thats the case I am not sure what's even doable about it.


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## EbS-P (Dec 22, 2020)

Do you have a way to monitor (near) real-time usage. They just changed us out to smart meters. I haven’t logged in to set up my account but I keep meaning too.  Any heating tape around pipes that has a thermostat?


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## wagne223 (Dec 22, 2020)

Does your bill show you actual kilowatts used per day? 
How does that compare to past usage?
Electric companies in some parts can have swings in the fuel charge. They can also add fees for potential weather expenses or fees to recoup expenses. Thing like that will effect your dollars even though your useage is normal.


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## Caw (Dec 22, 2020)

No funny charges. Its just a raw spike in kWh:

April - 1230 kWh
May - 1109
June - 1043
July - 1582
Aug - 1682
Sept - 1553
Oct - 1315
Nov - 1543
Dec - 1980

We moved in in April and here is our usage since then. Keep in mind the house is fully electric, we have a well, and two kids under 6 so there is heavy water usage.

That said the July, Aug, Sept and part of Oct increases make sense. We run the AC to 75 for the dog and there are always "hot" spells here...lots of 80+ and more and more 90+ days each year. So I get those numbers.

What I dont get is why my bill is going up in Nov and Dec. I burn basically 24/7 for heat. I keep it right around 70-72 inside with the heat pump set to 60 in case of emergency. The lowest its ever been inside is 62 when I wake up in the morning. I turned the pump/coils on once in Nov to make sure they still worked and they did.

So in Nov I got a bill that was similar to running the pump FULL TIME in the summer for AC and this bill I got yesterday is a whopping 400 kWh higher. The only thing I could think of is the resistance heat is coming on somehow to either defrost the outside unit or its just broken. I cant imagine anything else using so much power. My wife and I were expecting lower bills...more like 1200 kWh ish since we burn 24/7. Needless to say we aren't happy.

Im debating just calling the HVAC guy. The well seems to be operating fine. I dont know of any heat tape, most pipes are exposed downstairs its an open basement. I cant think of anything else that would use 437 kWh...


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## Eureka (Dec 22, 2020)

I’m laying a dollar down on the heat pump being the jerk here.


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## DuaeGuttae (Dec 22, 2020)

What is the temperature of your well water now as opposed to over the summer?  You mention heavy water usage, and if that water is often heated for showers or washing, you'll certainly be using more kilowatt hours in the winter if you're starting with colder water.

We're in a very different climate, and our water is heated by natural gas, but it sure can spike our winter bill. (We also get hit by a peak fuel charge in winter months, and even though our November usage was not much higher than our October usage, the bill was much higher.  Ugh.  You seem to have ruled out that, though, by identifying your actual energy use.)

Others can give you much better advice about heat pumps and leaking well pumps, but I don't think you should discount the energy consumption of heating water.  Statiscally, I believe, it's the second largest energy user behind heating/cooling in American homes.

Do you know the temperature you water heater is trying to maintain?  Could you adjust it lower safely?


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## wagne223 (Dec 22, 2020)

Since you have not been in the house a year yet, it is hard to judge if you have a problem or if this is normal.
Like others, I would bet IF there is a problem it would be related to the heat strips. However it could be normal from the water heater.
Not only is the heater warming up colder water, but when bathing you will use a higher percentage of hot because the cold is colder then normal. Takes more hot to make it comfortable.
The next step would be to determine what appliance is using the power. I know there are gadgets that can measure and track usage of individual circuits but I have not looked into them.


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## Caw (Dec 22, 2020)

While I agree it might be hard to determine subtle issues I find it hard to believe that a brand new water heater is responsible for a 400 kWh spike in one month.


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## Solarguy3500 (Dec 22, 2020)

Solarguy3500 said:


> Looks like my stove uses a 144 CFM blower with a different model number. Just for giggles, I'll try plugging it in tomorrow and see what it uses, but I suspect @begreen is right. It's probably in the 80-100W range



Using my energy consumption monitoring device, I bench tested my blower's energy usage. Remember, mine is rated at 144 cfm so a slightly bigger unit.
Came in at 68 watts on high and 36 watts on low, so it can't be your blower unless there's something very wrong with the motor.


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## Caw (Dec 22, 2020)

Solarguy3500 said:


> Using my energy consumption monitoring device, I bench tested my blower's energy usage. Remember, mine is rated at 144 cfm so a slightly bigger unit.
> Came in at 68 watts on high and 36 watts on low, so it can't be your blower unless there's something very wrong with the motor.



Thanks for doing the research! Both you and begreen were right, its not the blower for sure. 

Favorite if betting right now are the resistance strips. Followed by the water heater I suppose but im having a hard time accepting that, its literally 2 months old and should cost $450 a year to run not $120 a month.


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## Brian26 (Dec 22, 2020)

Your old r22 heat pump most likely has a heated compressor belt.  Almost all heat pump including mini splits will keep the compressor warm to prevent liquid refrigerant from settling in the compressor during cold startup.

Post your model heat pump and I might be able to look up how many watts your compressor heater uses.

Also, do you have Eversource in Massachusetts? Here in CT there were a bunch of big price increases recently and everyone has been furious over high electric bills. I think the state made them roll back a price increase over the summer.

I'm on solar and have an electricity monitor on my house and with my wife working from home the consumption has skyrocketed.


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## Caw (Dec 22, 2020)

Here is the information for the appliances in question.

How ive been operating the unit:

1. Summer months it's set to cool and 75 degrees. I set it and forget it until the weather cools then I turn it off.

2. During early shoulder season when its in the 50-60 range outside I set the thermostat to 65 set and forget. I was a little light on wood so we wanted to test out the system. It worked fine.

3. When it starts to get cold, let's say under 50 regularly, I start to burn my uglies and soft wood, and when the real cold comes the hardwood gets used. I set the thermostat to 60 set and forget. I keep the house around 70 degrees so the pump should never come on. It's only on in case overnight the fire goes out for some reason. Basically its an emergency back up, the stove is doing 100% of the work.  My thought process was the resistance stripa would kick in if needed. Itll be too cold for the pump to be useful.

So you're saying the heat pump will basically turn on the resistance strips to keep the compressor warm just in case going to turn on? That would easily explain why I'm seeing an extra 400 kWh. Also that seems like a totally ridiculous waste of energy to a layman like me.

What if I just turn the system off. Would it still try to warm the compressor? If yes, what if I just shut off the breaker. Will that damage the unit?

Its been as low as 10 degrees here for a few days at a time and I never really sniffed needing backup heat. Coldest it got was 62 overnight so I am comfortable simply leaving it totally off. I do not want to pay $150 a month to keep it warm just in case. That defeats the purpose of the stove.

Is there a way to program it so of the temp does dip below X that the resistance strips come on but not the outside pump itself?

Regarding electricity cost we have National Grid which I believe is owned by Eversource. We are paying $0.228 kWh which sucks and blows.


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## Brian26 (Dec 22, 2020)

Its not the resistance strips on the indoor unit that come one. The outdoor unit might have a heater on the compressor itself located in the outside unit. Its very similar to a car engine block heater. The data plate looks like its from the indoor unit. The outdoor unit data plate might have some info on it if it has one.


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## Caw (Dec 22, 2020)

Yeah whoops that was the air handler in the first picture. Here is the outdoor unit information.


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## Brian26 (Dec 22, 2020)

That heat pump does have a compressor sump heating element. The specs are listed as: Heater; electric, sump/crankcase, 65w, 230v, 74.5".

So even if your not using the heat pump there is a heater in the outdoor compressor keeping it warm.  Most heat pumps are cycling constantly and don't use the compressor heating element outside much except when its idle.  Since your idling yours most of the time I bet the heater is running a lot.

Is 65 watts at 230v equal to 130 watts at 120 volts?


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## Caw (Dec 22, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> That heat pump does have a compressor sump heating element. The specs are listed as: Heater; electric, sump/crankcase, 65w, 230v, 74.5".
> 
> So even if your not using the heat pump there is a heater in the outdoor compressor keeping it warm.  Most heat pumps are cycling constantly and don't use the compressor heating element outside much except when its idle.  Since your idling yours most of the time I bet the heater is running a lot.
> 
> Is 65 watts at 230v equal to 130 watts at 120 volts?



Can I ask how you found out that information? Thats very good to know. 

So if ive had the system on "heat" its basically been idling keeping the compressor warm, probably constantly running that heater. 130 watts x 24 = 3,120 / 1000 = 3.12 kW/day x 30 = 93.6 kWh a month to do nothing. Thats not the white whale I was looking for but its definitely wasted energy. 

So the important question is if I turn the system to off, will that heater still run?






Then my final idea would be if I want to have backup emergency heat couldn't I set it to Aux? That should stop the heat pump from activating/preheating and kick on the resistance strips if the temp drops below X and allow the stove to do all the work.


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## Brian26 (Dec 22, 2020)

Caw said:


> Can I ask how you found out that information? Thats very good to know.
> 
> So if ive had the system on "heat" its basically been idling keeping the compressor warm, probably constantly running that heater. 130 watts x 24 = 3,120 / 1000 = 3.12 kW/day x 30 = 93.6 kWh a month to do nothing. Thats not the white whale I was looking for but its definitely wasted energy.
> 
> ...



Off the parts diagram for your outdoor unit.





						Trane Heat Pump: Model 2TWR3036A1000AA Parts & Repair Help | Repair Clinic
					

Find all the parts you need for your Trane Heat Pump 2TWR3036A1000AA at RepairClinic.com. We have manuals, guides and of course parts for common 2TWR3036A1000AA problems.




					www.repairclinic.com
				




You would probably need to turn off the disconnect to the outdoor unit to turn off the sump heater. You should then be able to set it to aux heat and just use the inside unit.  Those elements though would cost a fortune to run with Massachusetts electricity prices. The heat pump would use 3 to 4 times less electricity then the elements for the same heat output.


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## Caw (Dec 22, 2020)

The idea would be to never run them. They'd just be set to like 60 degrees in case something went wrong overnight with the stove which should never happen. I just dont want to be running that sump heater to warm a compressor I'm never going to use.

I feel like if it's on Aux mode on the thermostat it should shut off the outdoor unit, no?

Or maybe I could pay an HVAC guy to disconnect/teach me how to do it for winter. I dont care if the compressor gets cold, it will warm up when the weather warms. The thing to avoid is starting the compressor cold, which I won't be doing. It won't be on until its over 75 degrees outside.


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## mellow (Dec 22, 2020)

I moved into an all electric house about 3 years ago and it drove me nuts for the first 6 months (middle of winter)

I broke down and got this: 








						Home - Sense.com
					

Welcome to Sense. Take command of your energy use with total home monitoring Meet Sense Welcome to Sense. Take command of your energy use through total home monitoring. Meet Sense Engage customers and manage to the grid edge. Sense’s AI unlocks value with real time, detailed device detection and...




					sense.com
				




Sense is good for monitoring and finding power gremlins, not so great at per device usage as I had hoped it would be.   You can now get extra sensors to put on things.  I have HS110's on all my high consumption plug in devices to track use, like the electric heaters my wife loves to run at full bore.


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## Caw (Dec 22, 2020)

@DuaeGuttae - I'm not sure of the base well temperature versus summer but im sure its lower. I went and checked today and the water heater is set to approximately 130 degrees. I was mainly making sure both elements were set to the same number, it was more like 138 ish before and I lowered it a touch (analog markings. Only marked at 90, 125, 150 with hash marks in between). 

While I think on the whole water heating didnt cause this issue if everything is running properly, but, its possible there's a plumbing leak leaking hot water somewhere. If the water heater was running extra thats certainly plausible. Its 4500 watts. Im going to search for anything leaking tomorrow.


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## peakbagger (Dec 22, 2020)

Long ago I used to work for a water utility.  The company swapped over meters about every 10 years. It was quite predictable that folks would call up an complain about the increase in water usage caused by the new meter. Inevitably it was that the old meter was worn out and the new meter was picking up long term leaks. Yes leaking hot water will really eat up a lot of power. The other question is if they had to repipe the hot water heater?. There should be heat traps of thermal loops on the outlet piping of the heater. If the old heater had traps or loops and the new one doesnt, the heat from the hot water heater will thermosyphon up the pipes and heat the room. 

Generally heat pump heaters are only turned off when the main power breaker is turned off. The controls rarely will turn them off as there is potential that if its powered up and turned on with cold oil inside that it could do damage.  

The other big hidden energy user is if you have a deep well a small leak between the pump and the tank, the pump will run far more often and chew up a lot of power.


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## Solarguy3500 (Dec 22, 2020)

Caw said:


> @DuaeGuttae - I'm not sure of the base well temperature versus summer but im sure its lower. I went and checked today and the water heater is set to approximately 130 degrees. I was mainly making sure both elements were set to the same number, it was more like 138 ish before and I lowered it a touch (analog markings. Only marked at 90, 125, 150 with hash marks in between).
> 
> While I think on the whole water heating didnt cause this issue if everything is running properly, but, its possible there's a plumbing leak leaking hot water somewhere. If the water heater was running extra thats certainly plausible. Its 4500 watts. Im going to search for anything leaking tomorrow.



When we moved into our house which has an electric water heater, I knew it was a major consumer of electricity, about a third of our usage, I thought. 

After installing the Curb energy monitor a couple months ago, I now see that the water heater is really more like 2/3 of our usage. I thought it was 4,500W too, but remember there are 2 elements in the tank, not one, so it's actually 8,000W. Here's a screenshot from my monitoring showing the water heater running:


I like the Curb because it is more granular than Sense as it gives you enough current sensors to monitor about 11 individual circuits in addition to the total energy consumption which is captured by sensors on the mains. It's not enough sensors to measure every circuit, but you can get the big consumers like the water heater, range, etc. Curb also sends you a weekly email report showing your weekly usage by circuit so you can identify usage patterns and try to reduce consumption.


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## Caw (Dec 22, 2020)

Most residential water heaters that have two elements are not running simultaneously. For example, here is my water heater info:






It does say 4500 watts upper and lower but it also says total connected watts = 4500. This means that only one element is active at a time making it a 4500 watt unit. If they both ran simultaneously the total connected watts was would say 9000 and that would seem like extreme overkill for a small residential unit to me. 

Following up on checking for leaks I discovered that the leaky shower we inherited upstairs is actually leaking hot not cold water and its a fairly strong leak which is probably causing a good chunk of my problem. Firstly the water heater running way more than necessary but also the well pump. I have a plumber coming out to replace valve next week and while they are here I'll have them check the plumbing on the new heater too to make sure nothing is wrong there, but, it looks installed correctly to me.

Im still going to have an HVAC guy come by to examine the heat pump and discuss options for turning off that compressor sump pump. I get the failsafe of not turning it on accidentally while the refrigerant is precipice but I'm literally never going to turn the unit on unless I have a catastrophic stove event one cold day which is extremely unlikely and would cause us to have to evacuate anyways. If I did decide to turn it on I could simply rehook up the pump and let it warm up first. Or simply use resistance heat for a short time, the heat pump isn't doing jack in the middle of winter anyways. Would simply turning off the breaker be harmful? Assuming I turned it back on and allowed adequate time for the pump to heat up before activating the system. 

I'm curious what happens next billing cycle. Im already halfway thru this one and no repairs until next week so I expect another whopper 2000 kWh bill this month then hopefully relief.


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## semipro (Dec 22, 2020)

Caw said:


> The primary heat system is a heat pump with auxiliary electric heat.


We had a similar problem to yours and I was lucky to be standing over one of our floor registers one day when I felt heat coming out of it. Since our HP wasn't running it had to be the aux heating strips.  It turned out that the contactor in the aux heating unit had failed in the closed position and the element was energized 24/7.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 22, 2020)

Any way to double check that the well pump is not cycling for no reason?
Motors kicking on/off a lot will eat up some juice now!
Not sure of your well pump setup, but I know I have heard of more than one person with a high electric bill that in the end found a leaky well check valve causing it to run frequently...also, holes in underground waterlines will make 'er run a lot too...and depending on the makeup of your soil locally, its possible that you may never see that leak come to the surface...


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## EbS-P (Dec 22, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> Is 65 watts at 230v equal to 130 watts at 120 volts?


No. Watts are power. Volts x amps=watts.    You are  thinking about how the current must double to get the same power.  

No chance there is a recirculater on the hot water? Tale tell sign is the cold water runs warm for a bit. 

It all adds up 50 kw hrs here 50 there. I left my 100w attic light on for a month or more then I changed it out for an led.


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## peakbagger (Dec 23, 2020)

One other obvious thing is large outdoor flood lights with daylight timers. Halogen floods were popular 20 years ago and although bright are energy hogs. Short days means long nights. If you really need them on all night switch to LED floods. They put out a lot of light for far less power. 

Given that you found a hot water leak my bet is if you have well pump you will be pleasantly surprised with the next months bill.


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## Caw (Dec 23, 2020)

Thanks for all the insight everyone. Some other good ideas here to follow up on. We do have a lot of flood lights, I'll get up and inspect those when its safe. All my interior lights are LED now, not sure about the floods. They are very high up and its icy out. 

I think making sure the heat pump isn't running anything unnecessarily and fixing the hot water leak is where I'll start. If that doesn't improve it I think the next logical step is to get the well checked out. 

Having a wood stove as our primary/only heat source and getting a $450 electric bill is unacceptable!


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## brenndatomu (Dec 23, 2020)

Caw said:


> Having a wood stove as our primary/only heat source and getting a $450 electric bill is unacceptable!


Heck, you could take $300 off that number and I would still be having kittens! Our "big" electric bill is in the heat of the summer and rarely goes over $120...and it can go to half that in the spring/fall...this time of the year its $80-90 since the wood furnace blower runs almost 24/7.


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## Caw (Dec 23, 2020)

Unfortunately we are paying just shy of $0.23 per kWh and the entire house is electric so it sucks.  I have two kids under 6 and a giant dog who are all energy hogs! Baths, never ending laundry, AC for the dog, well, wife working from home etc. It adds up. Normal bills for us are $200-$250 then more like $300-$350 during summer AC months. 

I can stomach those numbers knowing that we use a lot and our rates are stupid high but the winter bills should be lower than the AC month bills. The stove burns 24/7 and its nice and toasty inside. Shes cruising along at 550 degrees on some nice maple and it's 72 as we speak!


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## brenndatomu (Dec 23, 2020)

Caw said:


> we are paying just shy of $0.23 per kWh


$ 0.0118 here...that's all in...taxes/fee's/surcharges/etc...


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## Caw (Dec 23, 2020)

Welcome to New England where everything costs more! Hooray!


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## brenndatomu (Dec 23, 2020)

Caw said:


> Welcome to New England where everything costs more! Hooray!


Does sound like a nice place to visit...its on our bucket list...


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## Brian26 (Dec 23, 2020)

Caw said:


> Welcome to New England where everything costs more! Hooray!



Have you looked into solar? Massachusetts has some of the best solar policies and incentives in the nation. Electricity is just as expensive in CT and I bought panels 4 years ago. They will be paid off next year after 5 years. My house is all electric and my Eversource bill is $9.62 every month.


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## Caw (Dec 23, 2020)

Solar is definitely on the agenda for 2021. We didn't quite get to it this year. The major energy project of 2020 was the stove and getting ahead on wood. We spent rest of our time renovating and settling in. I assume the incentives will be less in 2021 but I'm hoping they are still good.


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## peakbagger (Dec 23, 2020)

Massachusetts is involved with multiple programs to reduce greenhouse gas and increase the use of renewables. The vast majority of these programs are either paid for by a direct surcharge on electric power purchases or an indirect surcharge on power generation carbon credits under the regional greenhouse gas program (AKA RGGI). The EPA Clean Power Plan which the Trump administration sidelined was a countrywide greenhouse gas reduction program, many of the New England states in RGGI really didnt have to do much to comply while states with lots of cheap fossil generation especially coal would have to put in very expensive programs that would have raised power rates substantially.  If you look at the states most impacted by the CPP they lined up quite closely with states that voted for Trump. 

So its not that CAW is paying a lot for power, as much as many other states are paying too little by depending on fossil generation. The standard comment about Mass power rates is if you are not paying to put solar or to a lesser extent other renewables on your house you are paying to put it on your neighbors via surcharges on the power bill. The trade off is there are lots of incentives and rebates to encourage energy reduction. (It also keeps me employed).

BTW the solar incentive is currently slated to sunset in 2021. Its current 26% credit on installed cost, in 2021 it will drop to 22%. The thing to keep in mind is that the actual cost to install solar has been dropping faster than the rebate drops so unless someone waits until the last minute in 2021 they still probably break even. I gave up trying to figure out the latest Mass programs for solar, they change frequently. Some folks who did solar several years ago hit the jackpot for 10 years of very generous payments for SRECs but those programs have been trimmed back.


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## Caw (Dec 23, 2020)

@peabagger/everyone - can you elaborate on how the credits work? 

Im actually intending to look into starting the process on solar in January but it would be good to know more going into it outside of my own research. 

Let's say the solar installation costs $25,000. Am I getting credits that directly reduce that cost, or are they more tax credits I can deduct on my 2022 taxes say. How are the rates on solar loans? I couldn't buy it outright but I could pay it off in 3-5 years. 

Im familiar with how the monthly billing would work for using more/less than the array would supply. 

Also im curious about potentially adding batteries to my system. I live in an area that loses power frequently. I think we've lost it like 6-7 times already this year for longer than an hour...once was 2 days. My house is entirely electric so having a backup that isn't a noisy/dirty generator would be nice. 

My house gets tons of sun and has a gambrel roof. Its south facing so I assume the panels would need to be on the top flatter section, the steep section is a bad angle. 

I guess the big question is how much I will be spending upfront so I can prepare.  I know that in the long run its a huge win. 

Other questions: how does one deal with snow? We get a fair amount here. Do you just let it melt naturally? It seems they last about 25 years give or take...then the panels just need upgrading? What about damaged panels, are they covered by insurance or I just buy them?

Thanks everyone for sharing.


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## zrock (Dec 23, 2020)

Lots of things could be causing this Fridge, stove, dryer, heat pump/electric heat, faulty thermostat causing heat pump to run possibly during night. I had a fairly new fridge that decided it wanted to run consistently not something you really pay attention to until you get the bill.. Took me a while to figure it out until watching tv one night and i realized the fridge did not shut off all night...


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## brenndatomu (Dec 23, 2020)

zrock said:


> Took me a while to figure it out until watching tv one night and i realized the fridge did not shut off all night...


Yup, ours did that...turned out it had a bad control board that was not allowing it to auto defrost...thing was a solid block of ice!


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## peakbagger (Dec 23, 2020)

Caw said:


> @peabagger/everyone - can you elaborate on how the credits work?
> 
> Im actually intending to look into starting the process on solar in January but it would be good to know more going into it outside of my own research.
> 
> ...



The federal credits are fairly straightforward. They are tax credits, not deductions, so do your taxes in 2022 then figure out what you owe and deduct the value of the credit. If you are getting a check back from the IRS it goes up the amount of the credit as long as it doesnt exceed your total tax liability. Remember if you are working the fed takes out a bunch of money through withholding so that is a big part part of your tax liability.  So if using 25 K multiply by 22% which equals $5,500. As long as you owe the IRS $5,500 including all the taxes withheld over the year you are all set.   If someone is living on low income like social security with minimal tax liability its a different story but for most working folks who own  a house, probably not an issue. No need to itemize, it works with a standard deduction. If you dont want to wait until 2022 to get your money, you can increase the number of exemptions you claim on your W4 form which reduces the amount taken out of your paycheck every week and get the credit back slowly over 2021. Its legal but if you have complicated taxes probably not a great idea.

An important thing to note is the IRS gives a lot of flexibility on what can be included in the system installation cost  but very little guidance. Thats where the standard disclaimer comes in about seeing your tax advisor. Some folks push it but given the very low odds of an audit they take the chance. Most resources agree any expenses directly related to the cost of installing the solar. Dependent on the size and age of your electrical panel you may need a new one, that generally is regarded as part of the installation cost. If your roof under the panels is old, most resources agree that you can claim the cost to replace  the side of the roof impacted by the install. Where its grey is charging the other side of the roof. If you need trees cut down due to shading, thats generally regarded as part of the credit.

I would suggest you pick up a book called Solar Power Your Home for Dummies, there is an older version floating around on the internet or you can buy one from any online bookstore. Read it and a lot of the technical should make sense.

The optimum panel angle varies by location. The rule of thumb is fixed panel should be located at an angle equal to your latitude. So if you are at 40 degrees latitude mount the panels on the roof closes to 40 degrees off of vertical. This assume that you have perfect sun. Stripes of horizontal shadows just a few inches wide can shut down any panel. Vertical stripes are nto as bad , but many folks reroute their stack vents under the roof up to the ridge to get rid of their shadows and charge it to the tax credit. A chimney obviously is an issue. Fire codes also require at least one strip of roof on either side of the panels to climb up to the ridge poel and some clearance along the ridge so the can chop a hole in your roof to ventilate the house if there is fire. They may let you get way with panels all the way to the ridge line if the back side is clear but thats a local decision.

Yes snow sucks, I get plenty of it north of you. If the panels are steep, the snow is less prone to build up but even my pole mount panels at 30 degrees off vertical still get snow build up. My roof panels are shallow and they get covered with snow for much longer times. I can rake them if I really want to. They do melt off eventually and if you can get a roof rake up to them you can modify the rake to have a soft edge with piece of stiff foam and rake them. Like a metal roof, if snow builds up, when it lets go, it usually comes down in one big lump so make sure your landscaping and house exits are protected. You can have snow hooks installed but that means it takes lot longer to melt off.

If in doubt buy a couple of spare panels. If they are damaged down the road its highly unlikely that anyone had the correct size spare as they are always changing. They are quite durable but a baseball could smash one. They are rated for hail. Most panels unless they are second tier or have defects will last 20 plus years. No one really knows as consumer panels have only been around for about 25 years. Most are still cranking out power but a bit less due to degradation although usually the degradation is less than the manufacturer claims. Most commercial systems are regarded as financially obsolete in 20 years but its likely they are fine. What usually goes is the electronics and they usually need upgrading once in the 20 year life. You can buy extended warranties to cover them for 20 years but the question is if the guy who sold you the warranty even going to be in business?  

As for how much it depends on how big. You need to add up your power usage for a year and then go on the web and find the PVWATTs site and plug in your house information making a guess on your panel angle. it will calculate your potential production for a year and then you play with it until you just about match your future energy use after you have done all your energy savings. My normal guess is 4 KW of panels on the low end and 10 KW on the high end,. Now multiply by a range of $2 to $3 an installed watt and that is your budget not included things line roofs and electrical panel upgrades.

Odds are your local utility will offer more incentives but as I said they are changing. This website may get you started for Mass specific. 

Database of State Incentives for Renewables & Efficiency® - DSIRE (dsireusa.org)

Batteries are really not cost effective at this point unless you get a big incentive from someone.  A cheap Harbor Freight generator adn a couple of gas cans is far better investment. Its likely that when it start to make sense your system will be able to be upgrade to use them but I would hold off for now.


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## Brian26 (Dec 23, 2020)

Caw said:


> @peabagger/everyone - can you elaborate on how the credits work?
> 
> Im actually intending to look into starting the process on solar in January but it would be good to know more going into it outside of my own research.
> 
> ...



Take a look here. It explains Massachusetts solar program. You can also got to Tesla's solar website and get an instant quote there and it will show you the available incentives.








						Guide to Massachusetts incentives & tax credits in 2022
					

See how much you can save on home solar panels through rebates & tax credits in Massachusetts. Here’s the full list of federal, state and utility incentives that apply where you live:




					www.solarreviews.com
				




Everything I am seeing has Massachusetts at a 5-6 year break even on panels.

I financed my panels with a 5 year low interest  home equity loan from my credit union. My loan payment was $150 a month. The total yearly payment was less than or lower than my average electrical bill. My bill has been $9.62  month the last 4 years. So instead of paying the electric company I paid off my panels. My panels will be paid off next April after 5.5 years. After that they will produce close to $2k a year in free electricity.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 23, 2020)

Did I hear right that the "covid relief" bill congress just agreed on has some more "green money"...solar, wind, etc in it?


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## Caw (Dec 23, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Did I hear right that the "covid relief" bill congress just agreed on has some more "green money"...solar, wind, etc in it?



My very limited understanding was that they were going to extend the current 2020 solar credits etc through 2022. Even if its just that its a win. Looks like the initial federal credit was going from 26% to 22% in 2021.


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## peakbagger (Dec 23, 2020)

Sorry  for the crappy editing on my post. I will clean it up when I have a chance.

Yes the incentives are moving target. Mass is putting out some big carrots for commercial solar and battery but I do not know if it gets down to homeowner level.

Caveat Emptor on Tesla. They really push creative financing on their systems where they get the benefits and you get the stick. Across the board the standard advice by solar experts not in it for the buck is buy a system, dont lease it or do a PPA. They will  tell you what they have to to get their foot in the door but their business model is to get you to sign a complex document where they own the installation and you are a "renter" in some way shape of form. They arent the only ones but they have that rep of just being slicker at it. Unless you need a new roof including decking. it highly likely one of their new much hyped solar roofs will not be what you get. That is mostly a come on to get in the door and then they will quickly bait and switch to conventional panels.

 I cant stress strongly enough that you need a lawyer to review your contract. Its highly likely in addition to up front incentives that there are ongoing revenue checks for 10 years.  If you anticipate selling your home at any point in the contract life you will probably need to buy out a overpriced contract on a depreciated system.


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## festerw (Dec 23, 2020)

I had a quote from Generac here in PA cost was about 30k for the solar and 9kw battery. Electric rates here are pretty cheap and the installer was honest in letting me know it really wouldn't save us any money for our electric use since it's roughly $100/month.


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## CaptSpiff (Dec 23, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> Is 65 watts at 230v equal to 130 watts at 120 volts?


I'll pick a few nits in this great thread:
If the tiny compressor heater is rated at 65 watts, then that's its power consumption. 
The formula is (Power)=(Volts) times (Amps).
I don't know what controls that tiny heater. Either it always runs (unlikely), or is activated by a local thermostat inside the compressor, or by the house thermostat switched to HEAT mode (perhaps too complicated).
But even if it ran 24/7, that would only be 0.065*24*30=46.8 kwh. At 22.5 cents/kwh, that would only add $10.53 to your monthly bill.
The only way I could think of stopping only the 65W drain is the outside electrical disconnect, but if you needed the unit for emergency heat you'd need to allow the compressor heater to run for a few hours before activating the compressor, especially if it's like 10degF outside.



Caw said:


> Most residential water heaters that have two elements are not running simultaneously.


Correct. I learned here on this forum, after having installed plenty of them, that the upper and lower elements are sequenced. I cannot remember if the lower one comes on first (slightly higher temp setting), and then if the tank temperature continues to drop then the upper element comes on (shutting off the lower element). Or it could be the other way around, but both elements are never on together simultaneously.
So with respect to energy usage, if your water heater is ON all day every day, it'll cost you 4.5*24*30*0.225=$729 for the month of Nov.
If every day in November it is running an additional 1 hour to deal with the incoming well water being colder, that would be only about $30 per month.
I'm guessing your problem is not too cold well water. But combine that with a hot water valve leak, that could start to show up.
Good hunting.


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## Caw (Dec 23, 2020)

I think the picture is starting to become more clear. 

Regularly running compressor heater pump - $10
Colder water - $30 
Christmas lights on 24/7 (even if only 5 strands of small lights) - $25
Hot water leak + well pump more active due to water leak - likely significant $

Add it up and thats $65 + whatever the leak is costing me which could very well be $50+. There's the extra $120 from November. 

Unfortunately I'm halfway thru the next cycle so I expect another whopper bill here but everything will be fixed for the start of the next cycle. Hoping to see a serious improvement. 

As far as solar, while I will use them for pricing im pretty keen on avoiding Tesla. I have one friend who went with then and it's fine but I prefer interacting with smaller, local companies and there are plenty of those in my area. I'm having one come out next week to get some #s and ask some questions. My roof is well situated for solar...gambrel facing south. Nice big chunk that isn't too steep pointed due south with minimal obstructions outside of the chimney which is on the east side. If I can fit a 6 kWh system up there that would cut my energy costs in half, or more. 

It would be the dream to be largely off the grid with wood heat and solar power. We'll see what happens!


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## heat seeker (Dec 23, 2020)

On an electric water heater, the upper element comes on, if the upper few gallons in the tank needs heating. When the upper thermostat is satisfied, then the lower element comes on until its thermostat is satisfied. This is mainly to give you a few gallons of hot water relatively quickly if you use all the heated water in the tank. Thus, both elements are not energized at the same time, normally.


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## peakbagger (Dec 23, 2020)

Caw said:


> I think the picture is starting to become more clear.
> 
> Regularly running compressor heater pump - $10
> Colder water - $30
> ...



My guess is you will get more production and less snow issues on the steeper lower roof.


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## fbelec (Dec 29, 2020)

just to recap. if you shut off your compressor breaker it will shut off everything outside including the compressor heater. the heatpump is designed to go to the heat strips at no lower than 32 but sometimes 36 degrees. so if you keep your thermostat on aux heat or emergency heat then it will come on only if needed on the electric strips. if you don't change to the emergency heat or aux it will be slow to react. like it will be looking for the heat pump and run for some time before the heat strips kick in. on a heat pump the control board is in the out side unit so a call for heat if need be will be one of two things either it won't come on because you have the outside breaker off or it will heat with just the electric strip or coil heat. the electric coils or strips can be quite large. some only 15000 watts or like my customer that has geothermal heat pumps. his main heater has a separate circuit for the electric coils. it's a 240 volt 100 amp breaker. i would hate to have that electric bill


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## Caw (Dec 29, 2020)

Im still waiting for all the service guys to come this week and see what we can do. I'm heating 100% with wood so I really don't want to run the compressor heater when I will never be turning it on this winter. 

If there were some issue with the stove one day I could turn the power back on for a couple hours to let the compressor warm then fire the system. Thats my thought process anyways. Why pay for electricity im not going to use?

Stove keeps the whole house 70+ on the coldest days no problem.


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## peakbagger (Dec 29, 2020)

That is what we used to do in our plant. I think we even paid our contractor to install timers on the starters that would wait 2 hours after they were reenergized to ensure the heaters had warmed up the compressors.


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## PA Mountain Man (Dec 31, 2020)

Caw. I read thru this thread and the heat pump may be part of the problem. One thing you changed is the water heater and you may want to check setting on the thermostat. Heating the water 5 degrees warmer on the new heater versus the old heater could account for an increase in electric use. And don't assume the new heater is insulated better than the old one.  Water heater blankets can save a lot of heat in a 50 degree basement.
Also as mentioned above your well pump could be running more often due to a leak, clogged pressure switch or it could be worn out and having to run longer to pump the same amount of water. The well pump can be checked without pulling by taking amp readings and comparing against motor designed draw. Several years ago we noticed  a sudden  increase in power use.  After looking in all the wrong places I checked the electric draw on the pump and that was the culprit.  I replaced ours and electric bill went down a lot.


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## Caw (Dec 31, 2020)

I had the HVAC guy out yesterday to give the beat pump a thorough inspection and it's not the culprit. Everything is working properly. Next step is getting the leak fixed, which isn't until next week unfortunately. Then we'll have to check the well.


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## festerw (Dec 31, 2020)

I'd bet getting the leak fixed will be the answer. Both the water heating part and the pump running frequently could drive the usage up significantly.

I had a leaking washer valve and unknown at the time leak in my pressure tank bladder and the pump would run every 15-20 minutes.


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## SpaceBus (Dec 31, 2020)

Caw said:


> We're a family of 4 with the kids only being 5 and 3 so the bathing time is pretty standard. They get the usual and we get whatever we can whenever we can lol.
> 
> The primary heat system is a heat pump with auxiliary electric heat. The main reason I decided to go wood was to avoid using it. Ive had it set to 60 since its been cold and I've never seen the thermostat go below 62. With the stove running on a cold day it's usually 68-72 in the far rooms and 72-78 close by.
> 
> The lights are all LED inside so those don't concern me much but thats interesting about the water heater...that never crossed my mind. We just had it replaced about 3 months ago. Its just a basic AO Smith model, nothing fancy. But it is fairly cold in the basement as the stove is on the first floor. Maybe its chugging to keep the water warm? We have a well so its definitely cold water.



I'm not that much further north than you and I know our well water is definitely less than 40 df, especially in the winter. I suspect your "backup" heat is coming on more often than you think. Our first winter I had the baseboard heaters set to come on about 64df and turns out they would kick on before the stove  stopped carrying the load due to the thermostat being on the other side of the room, behind a TV. It was only an hour or so a day, but it added up. I turned off the power to the heaters and thermostat and have noticed a reduction in use between our first winter and second winter. I actually never go around to putting them back in, especially since we never go anywhere.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 1, 2021)

Caw said:


> Unfortunately we are paying just shy of $0.23 per kWh and the entire house is electric so it sucks.  I have two kids under 6 and a giant dog who are all energy hogs! Baths, never ending laundry, AC for the dog, well, wife working from home etc. It adds up. Normal bills for us are $200-$250 then more like $300-$350 during summer AC months.
> 
> I can stomach those numbers knowing that we use a lot and our rates are stupid high but the winter bills should be lower than the AC month bills. The stove burns 24/7 and its nice and toasty inside. Shes cruising along at 550 degrees on some nice maple and it's 72 as we speak!



 I was in the same boat as you when I purchased my home back in 2004. All electric.. well, stove everything except heat which was an oil fired boiler.. I took a little time to make the changes necessary. Gas at the time was not available In 2005 we installed 2 fireplaces propane and got rid of the electric cook top.  In 2016 I did a full renovation as well as added an addition to the house. By 2016 gas was available so I got rid of the propane and went gas for the 2 fireplaces and cook top. In 2017 I went all solar, installing a system large enough to cover my usage. There are bills you can eliminate and bills that you can reduce.  I went from spending thousands of dollars a year un utilities to almost nothing.  I spend less than 180 dollars a year in gas, I pay nothing to heat my home as my wood is free, my solar covers mostly all my electric. I paid less than 200 for the year in electric.  but received 4800 in serec, so I'm 4600 ahead which I use to pay towards my system.  The way I have looked at the electric bill is that I can purchase my solar system outright and pay it off. I turned a monthly bill that will be paid forever into a payment that will end. Between what I make in serec and what I got as a tax rebate the system pays for itself. I just fronted the money.  You also can eliminate and reduce your bills. It will take time, but put together a plan. I don't know what your states  Incentives are but is worh looking into, and making some changes every couple years adds up..  If I were to heat my house with oil it would cost me about 2k per year to keep it as warm as my stove does. over 10 years that 20k saved.. over 15 years thats 30k.  Im not interested in helping the utility companies reach their record profits every year. The money is better served staying in my bank account or put into my investments.


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## Caw (Jan 1, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> I'm not that much further north than you and I know our well water is definitely less than 40 df, especially in the winter. I suspect your "backup" heat is coming on more often than you think. Our first winter I had the baseboard heaters set to come on about 64df and turns out they would kick on before the stove  stopped carrying the load due to the thermostat being on the other side of the room, behind a TV. It was only an hour or so a day, but it added up. I turned off the power to the heaters and thermostat and have noticed a reduction in use between our first winter and second winter. I actually never go around to putting them back in, especially since we never go anywhere.



Heat was set to 58 and it never got below 62 on the thermostat. HVAC guy confirmed the system is functioning normally the other day. We don't have any other mini splits or heaters so I think its safe to eliminate that as the source. Im also just leaving it off the rest of the year...we never need it. If I do need it one day for some reason I'll turn it on and give it a couple hrs for the compressor to warm up before firing it. 

I now fully suspect the water issues. Cold well water + hot water leaking shower = significant extra well pump and hot water heater time. Outside of the heater those are the big energy users in the house.

My basement is also like 48-50 degrees during the winter. The water heater is brand new and fully insulated but I wonder if a heater jacket would help?

I checked my 2 fridges too and they are all set/running properly. Had to reschedule my plumber to the 7th unfortunately due to a conflict. Solar guy also coming the 7th so it'll be a fun week.


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## CaptSpiff (Jan 1, 2021)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> .... but received 4800 in serec, so I'm 4600 ahead which I use to pay towards my system.


Why are the SREC's so lucrative in New Jersey? 
They seem near worthless in New York. I think my neighbor had to sign ownership of his SERC's over to the Utility to qualify for the Utility Company Solar Rebates.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 1, 2021)

CaptSpiff said:


> Why are the SREC's so lucrative in New Jersey?
> They seem near worthless in New York. I think my neighbor had to sign ownership of his SERC's over to the Utility to qualify for the Utility Company Solar Rebates.



 NJ is closed border when selling them. So I have them and a company in my state needs them and we don't get any outside influences.  Were selling each anywhere fron 210 to 230 per serc.. Im guaranteed to have mine for 15 years..


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## fbelec (Jan 2, 2021)

what i'm about to say can be big if this has never been done which would cause the fridge to run way longer. most people don't do this so when they buy a new fridge they say their power usage went down. refrigerators that don't have a coil on the back of the fridge have them on the bottom of the fridge behind the front kick vent with a fan that pulls air across the coils and then across the defrost pan to evaporate the water. most people have no idea and those coils especially if you have pets get packed with dust and the fridge doesn't cool that good so it runs longer. i do mine every year and they are packed. i took a fridge for my brother that i got from a friend that says it wasn't cooling anymore. my brother needed a fridge. i tipped it back and had to scrap out the dust with a screw driver it then worked for him for another 7 years. all that has to be done is tip the fridge back and vacuum the coils. it runs so much less after doing this. the dust forms a blanket over the coils and it can't remove the heat from the coils so it runs more to do the same job


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## Caw (Jan 2, 2021)

Do donkeys count?


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## heat seeker (Jan 3, 2021)

Caw said:


> View attachment 270993
> 
> 
> Do donkeys count?


Not very high, as they don't have many (or any) fingers...


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## fbelec (Jan 4, 2021)

he must be guarding the outlet


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## mcdougy (Jan 4, 2021)

*clothes dryer working normal dry times? Or is there way more laundry being done due to everyone at home?*


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## fbelec (Jan 7, 2021)

here is another thought. i had a customer a few years back that had someone wire his shed about 75 feet away from his house. the guy wired the shed underground and used regular romex and not the uf cable that is supposed to be there. he called me in to check everything because his kids would use the spicket on his shed for the sprinkler. everytime they were finished they go to shut off the water soaking wet in bare feet they would get zapped. i started taking readings with a meter to figure this out. to see if it were him or a neighbor. i was getting readings from a metal fence gate. 3 feet apart one post to the other 120 volt and this was in the front yard and the shed was in the back yard. so i went into the panel and the leakage was drawing 10 amps. he said to me that his electric usage was way up. sure 10 amps 24/7 don't know if this is your case so i figured i'd throw it in


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## heat seeker (Jan 7, 2021)

A friend of mine has an inground pool. Hubby installed a pole light near it, didn't have a long enough run of wire, so he taped the connections and buried them. About 15 years later, they removed the light and wiring. The electric bill went down $20/month after that. Those taped connections, buried in moist ground, ate up $20 a month for 15 years. If my math is good, that's around $3,600! He never heard the end of that from the (now ex-)wife.


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## fbelec (Jan 9, 2021)

sometimes it's not worth cheaping out. especially around the pool. somebody could have got killed. 90% of people just don't know how to say (i don't know)


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## CaptSpiff (Jan 11, 2021)

heat seeker said:


> ...Those taped connections, buried in moist ground, ate up $20 a month for 15 years. If my math is good, that's around $3,600! He never heard the end of that from the (now ex-) wife.


$20 a month for 15 years = $3600 ???     That's not so bad,.... that's my wife's shoe bill.   

Worth every penny.


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## heat seeker (Jan 11, 2021)

CaptSpiff said:


> $20 a month for 15 years = $3600 ???     That's not so bad,.... that's my wife's shoe bill.
> 
> Worth every penny.


Wise man!


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