# Seeking Out With The Old And in With The New Considerations



## uncndl1 (Dec 7, 2017)

We bought this old farm house 2 years ago with a now 38 year old HS Tarm OT35 combination wood and oil boiler.  Previous owners used mainly wood since boiler was new but we’ve using oil since we’re not home much.  Average oil consumed past 2 years is 590 gallons.  I know the old steel and cast iron fittings aren’t going to last forever so wanted input into what to replace with and how to find reputable dealers in our zip code area 12020. 
Currently leaning towards a new oil or pellet system.  I’m thinking with a storage tank the system won’t need to be as large as our current system.  
Anyone using Evoworld, Froling P4, Effecta Komplete III, EcoBoiler, or WoodMaster on this site?


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## JohnDolz (Dec 8, 2017)

Good stuff. I do not own an Effecta Pellet Boiler but I do own one of their Log Boilers. I can tell you that I feel it is a great product and great company. NPAlaska, who posts here. runs an Effecta Pellet Burner on his Effecta Logboiler. Maybe he will see this and jump in to give you his perspective. Good luck!


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## peakbagger (Dec 8, 2017)

Looks like you have a lot of choices before you pull the trigger.

First thing to consider is energy efficiency upgrades to the house. Since the prior owner was heating mostly with wood, they may not have been as concerned with how much wood they used. It would be worth checking with the local utility to see if they have subsidized energy audits and possibly upgrades.

The next thing is to determine if your mortgage company will allow a pellet boiler to be your primary heating sources. In the past most mortgage companies required conventional backup like propane, gas, oil or electric. Pellets were lumped in with wood.

Realistically there are no good dual fuel heating sources, the old tarm you have is a compromise, both the wood and oil sides are going to be less efficient than separate units. One major reason why they were popular is that they were rated to go into one flue. Many homes didn't have extras flues so they didn't have the choice of two separate heating sources.

How tight is your budget?. A whole house pellet boiler install is in the 15 to 20 K range. A high efficiency low mass cold start oil boiler like a System 2000 is going to cost  half that installed. A cold start cuts standby losses substantially as it doesn't remain hot when there is no heating demand. Economically oil is on par with pellets price wise, sure the oil market could go wacko again but most intermediate term predictions are US shale oil production and decreasing demand for transportation fuels is going to hold prices somewhat stable. The dirty secret is delivered pellet pricing is directly linked to oil costs. It takes a lot of fuel to convert low grade wood in woods to a pellet plant and lot of electricity and fuel into pellets and then even more oil to ship them. Unless you want to pay a premium for "green" I expect at best its a wash on ongoing price.

How hands on do you want to be, pellet boilers are going to require a bit more work than an oil boiler. Higher end units required less but the ash needs to be emptied on occasion. Fuel quality can also give you problems. It seems to have gotten better over the years but unlike heating oil, pellets quality and characteristics tend to change by supplier and fuel source. On occasion you may get a load of pellets and they just plain will not want to run well. In that case either you or a paid service tech needs to troubleshoot.

Another issue, few folks don't want to deal with the tons of pellets needed for a primary heating source. In some areas there are firms that do bulk delivery but its pretty slim with little or no competition. They will need to visit more often so how accessible is your home to good roads?

Stick wood can be less expensive than oil or pellets as you potentially are cutting out the middlemen. The key thing is you have to place no value on your labor. Sure you might be able to buy bulk wood from a logger for cheap, but that wood needs to be cut and split stacked and seasoned for 2 years. If you like the exercise or the feeling of self reliance or if you are doing small scale timber management on the farm and you don't have to buy it then consider wood. Based on the past oil consumption and a rough rule of thumb of 1 cord is equivalent to a 100 gallons of heating oil, you are looking at needed to source and process and store 12 cords of wood and let it sit for 2 years and then commit to an additional 6 cords a year. That's a lot of work for some folks. Its going to take up a lot of your spare time. If you like doing it fine but many would rather write a check.

You asked about storage. It only makes sense with stick wood as a wood boiler is batch heater best run full bore for several hours at a time until the storage is full and then shut down until the storage gets low.  Pellet boilers are continuous heaters, they don't benefit from large storage as they meter out the fuel continuously and only supply heat when the thermostats call for it. Storage for a house your size will be quite large and getting it in place may be challenge as the old prpane tanks many people use do not fit in very readily through interior doors or even a bulkhead. There is non pressurized solution to get around that but in either case its not cheap and the initial cost is in the 15 to 25 K range.

What may be the best option for you is get a wood stove for interior space heating up on the main floor. If you have a good spare chimney the install cost can be a lot lower. Its good way to see if you want to really hassle with wood in the long run. Alternative get a pellet stove which is somewhat less work prepping the fuel supply but depending on your pellet source it may require frequent cleaning. The wood stove is nice as if you lose power for an extended period its the only heating source that does not need electric power. Assuming you have some wood set aside

IMHO, My approach would be , have an energy audit done ASAP, spend money to reduce energy usage, have the Tarm oil side tuned up and serviced. Line up a firm to swap out the Tarm with a System 2000, get an estimate and sit on it unless the service shows that the existing Tarm is ready to fail. Then buy a chainsaw and splitting maul and spend the winter getting a firewood pile. If in the spring you think you want to go wood, buy a wood stove.


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## uncndl1 (Dec 8, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> Looks like you have a lot of choices before you pull the trigger.
> 
> First thing to consider is energy efficiency upgrades to the house. Since the prior owner was heating mostly with wood, they may not have been as concerned with how much wood they used. It would be worth checking with the local utility to see if they have subsidized energy audits and possibly upgrades.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for a comprehensive analysis!
Lots to think about as mentioned above.
I thought about a wood stove on the main floor.
Would need a chimney Installed for that but no matter what we do money will be spent.
The energy audit is a great first step, thank you.
The current system is cleaned regularly by us and filter with nozzle changed yearly.
Last analysis came in at 78% by the oil company so know there's room for improvement.
We have a very old electric water heater and our monthly electric bill runs $100-135 each month.
Was thinking since we're already heating a boiler maybe our DHW could come from the same system.
The more reading I do is helpful but all your insight is appreciated too.
I see that Woodmaster has an add on pellet option called Renovator that I'm curious about, wondering if I could modify my wood burner side with that, instead of modifying the oil side.
Not afraid with the maintenance and work involved with burning wood but thinking a hopper in the basement that holds 4 tons is attractive.
I'll keep you informed as to follow up.
Thanks again.


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## maple1 (Dec 8, 2017)

DHW only runs us about $25/mo on 0.18/kwh electricity.


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## leon (Dec 10, 2017)

uncndl1 said:


> We bought this old farm house 2 years ago with a now 38 year old HS Tarm OT35 combination wood and oil boiler.  Previous owners used mainly wood since boiler was new but we’ve using oil since we’re not home much.  Average oil consumed past 2 years is 590 gallons.  I know the old steel and cast iron fittings aren’t going to last forever so wanted input into what to replace with and how to find reputable dealers in our zip code area 12020.
> Currently leaning towards a new oil or pellet system.  I’m thinking with a storage tank the system won’t need to be as large as our current system.
> Anyone using Evoworld, Froling P4, Effecta Komplete III, EcoBoiler, or WoodMaster on this site?


======================================================================================================


You not burning a lot of oil. 

Before you spend any of your hard earned money I would like you to purchase two paperbacks "Pumping Away" and Classic Hydronics.
If you buy them from www.Dansbooks.com you buy them directly from the author or you can order them from AMAZON or Barnes & Noble. 

These 2 books were written by Dan Holohan. Mr. Holohan grew up in the plumbing business being a plumbers helper, technical sales rep for B+G and Taco and a plumbing and heating trouble shooter on Long Island. 

Mr. Holohan makes his reading fun and informative for the experienced plumber and the lay person and he talks about the history of plumbing and heating and the Dead Men who were responsible for the plumbing and heating systems we use today as well as the physics involved in plumbing for heating and cooling and what is needed as well as great ways to avoid crawling around on you hands and knees to bleed radiators by power purging them when you fill them with cold water by placing boiler drains in each cool water return loop before the boiler sump. 

Save your money, you do not need a new boiler.

Have the oil burner serviced and then clean the boiler tubes with the brushes that came with the boiler. 


If I remember your Tarm correctly you need to remove the steam chest cover to remove the lid that seals the vertical boiler tubes to brush them out to clean them.

Cleaning the boiler flue pipe to the ash door in the chimney should also be done too. 

NO, NO. NO, you do not have to worry about the boiler or the steel pipe fittings until they develop a leak so no worries there at all. I have steel pipe fittings and they are very old and do not leak so no worries there. 

A few simple parts will make your boiler last much, much longer and prevent needless expense. 

1. back flow preventer
2. Low Water Cut Off switch wired in series as the first boiler control before the triple aquastat.
3. Boiler Bypass valve. The boiler bypass valve saves fuel by using the water in the heating loop and recirculating it and mixing it with the hot water in the steam chest. 
4. 
The B+G RB122-E is what I would recommend for a low water cut off. Doing it in this manner shuts the power off to the boiler in the event of a low water condition and prevents the boiler from firing if there is no water in the steam chest and also preventing an explosion from water contacting the dry boiler walls.

5. Drain the boiler off completely and flush it out and then add a can of Fernox after the backflow preventor is installed to protect the boilers wet parts.


You may want to consider replacing the triple aquastat and L6006A with a new one.

I have the Honeywell L8124L1011 horizontal triple aquastat and the RB-122-E Low Water Cut Off  and a Honeywell L6006A in my coal stoker boiler and they are excellent units. 

These mechanical boiler controls that are not affected by high voltage spikes and low voltage conditions which will destroy digital boiler controls. 

I had 2 Hydrolevel 3250 Plus triple aquastats and they were both faulty with bad computers and the low water cut off controls did not work on either unit and I replaced them with the Honeywell L8124L1011 Triple Aquastat and the Mcdonnel & Miller Bulldog RB-122-E Low Water Cut Off.   

There is no need to spend a huge amount of money to replace your current boiler when all you need is new control parts and installing the circulator above the steam chest pulling water from the large steam chest tapping to pump away from the boiler.

All you need is a little work and a few new parts and you do not have to spend a huge amount of money to do this and you can leave your oil boiler to run on summer temperatures of 160 high 140 low with a 10 degree differential on the triple aquaststat and leave the L6006A at 190 with a 15 degree differential for the dump zone temperature. 

Spoil yourself and your spouse with a vacation with the money you will save by doing simple repairs with new parts or hiring a plumber to do them and you will save many thousands of dollars you can spend on a hobby or a dream vacation.



Save Your Money and do the simple upgrades and repairs.that is all you need to do.


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## maple1 (Dec 10, 2017)

I would not drain & flush a boiler that has been in service that long, I don't think. Likely wouldn't touch anything on it at all. Any dirt inside should have long ago settled out into spots where it will harmlessly rest until the end of the boilers time. And all of the oxygen in the water should be long gone and the boiler & systems innards coated with naturally forming stuff that does that inside a closed boiler system. Post 3 above pretty well nails what I would advise. Around here you would pay more to heat with pellets than oil I think.


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## leon (Dec 10, 2017)

Have you ever cleaned the vertical heat exchanger tubes in your Tarm boiler? If not It they need to be cleaned as they will have soot and fine ash on the sides affecting the rate of heat exchange in the boilers combustion area.


Adding a boiler bypass loop and an insulated horizontal storage tank would be one of the first things I would do after installing a low water cut off and back flow preventer and cleaning the vertical boiler tubes would be next as you will have much more thermal mass to use to heat the home using a very small amount of oil and it would not cycle as often as your hot water loop will only take so much heat from the boiler and the storage tank if you plumb them in series.


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## peakbagger (Dec 10, 2017)

I am biased, I know of two folks over the years with similar vintage Tarms that had to replace them due to dome gasket leaks. I think in both cases they probably could have been repaired/rebuilt but the owners needed heat.  I think one of them mentioned he contacted the folks in Lyme and they claimed they were told that they were approaching the reasonable life of that model. I dont know what wears out on them. 

No matter what you do with the tarm, its not going to have great annual fuel efficiency. The current approach to modern oil boilers are low mass triple pass heat exchanger set up as cold start unit. This eliminates the standby loss of having a poorly insulated boiler full of hot water 24/7 in case there is demand for oil. I figure a gallon of fuel oil per day for standby loss. The stated oils usage is quite lower that I would have expected. 

If you just want to stick with what you have, the best investment is an outdoor reset controller and possibly a new gun. The reset controller adjusts the boiler water temperature based on outdoor temperature. The age may mean it may not have a retention head burner, switching over a to retention head will reduce oil usage a bit.


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## uncndl1 (Dec 10, 2017)

Just read all the additional posts and appreciate all the information and advice.  I’d like to know more about hydronic and plumbing so will look at those books.  The operating instructions are somewhat vague and say to use a scraper through the wood loading door and ash door to clean the flat surfaces.  The long handled brush is used to get down between the baffles that are visible through the clean out door.  Nothing mentioned about removing any panels except for chimney cleaning which is done yearly when the oil filter and nozzle are changed out.  I do clean what is accessible through the two doors every two months.  The flue exit from boiler is cleaned each year but haven’t removed any panels.  Will have to look into the other suggestions once winter is over and have read some more.  The circulators are on the return lines from radiators and baseboards close to bottom inlet
 (2 zones).  I do know there is no mixing valve as recommended in directions and our hot water heater is in series with the internal boiler coils for hot water.
Lots of reading to do and once again appreciate all the pointers which will be looked into.  I will save the money for now which is what I was hoping as we like to pay cash for our repairs and improvements.  The cold start Energy Kinetics system sounds interesting for the future if a changeout is needed.  


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## TimCroft (Dec 11, 2017)

uncndl1 said:


> We bought this old farm house 2 years ago with a now 38 year old HS Tarm OT35 combination wood and oil boiler.  Previous owners used mainly wood since boiler was new but we’ve using oil since we’re not home much.  Average oil consumed past 2 years is 590 gallons.  I know the old steel and cast iron fittings aren’t going to last forever so wanted input into what to replace with and how to find reputable dealers in our zip code area 12020.
> Currently leaning towards a new oil or pellet system.  I’m thinking with a storage tank the system won’t need to be as large as our current system.
> Anyone using Evoworld, Froling P4, Effecta Komplete III, EcoBoiler, or WoodMaster on this site?



I am running a tarm excel 2000 with a 660 gal STSS tank purchased 10 years ago which also provides DHW.  I have not burned any oil in ten years and burn 8 cord a year just south of Albany heating 2200 sq ft..  Replaced the ceramics two years ago and the Tarm has run like a top for all that time.   I am considering installing a pellet boiler as I have paid for wood the last 2 years and the cost of pellets is similar to wood.  Used to cut and split but the body doesn't agree with that any more.  I am going to sell my system at the end of this heating season.  Good luck with your search.  Tarms are great and I would go with a Froling personally,if they weren't twice the average cost of other systems.  Waiting to see how the Evoworld reviews go.  Very interesting unit.  Saw an evoworld running at the Troy plant and was very impressed.


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## uncndl1 (Dec 11, 2017)

TimCroft said:


> I am running a tarm excel 2000 with a 660 gal STSS tank purchased 10 years ago which also provides DHW.  I have not burned any oil in ten years and burn 8 cord a year just south of Albany heating 2200 sq ft..  Replaced the ceramics two years ago and the Tarm has run like a top for all that time.   I am considering installing a pellet boiler as I have paid for wood the last 2 years and the cost of pellets is similar to wood.  Used to cut and split but the body doesn't agree with that any more.  I am going to sell my system at the end of this heating season.  Good luck with your search.  Tarms are great and I would go with a Froling personally,if they weren't twice the average cost of other systems.  Waiting to see how the Evoworld reviews go.  Very interesting unit.  Saw an evoworld running at the Troy plant and was very impressed.


Lot's of choices.  I ordered two books on hydronics to read over the holidays.
Then will tackle additions and suggestions where appropriate.
Appreciate all the information above.
Thanks.

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## uncndl1 (Dec 11, 2017)

uncndl1 said:


> Lot's of choices.  I ordered two books on hydronics to read over the holidays.
> Then will tackle additions and suggestions where appropriate.
> Appreciate all the information above.
> Thanks.
> ...


Some ideas from above:
-Energy audit
-Outdoor reset controller adjusts boiler temperature based in outdoor temperature.
-New burner retention head
-Backflow preventer
-Low water cutoff switch wired in Series before triple acquast I.e. B+G RB122E
Or McDonnell & Miller Bulldog low water cutoff
-Boiler bypass valve
-New triple acquast i.e. Honeywell L8124L1011
And Honeywell L6006A
-Boiler Bypass loop 
-Insulated horizontal storage tank after low water cutoff and backflow preventer.


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## peakbagger (Dec 11, 2017)

The guru for heating design, John Siegenthaler has several courses on line on biomass heating. Some cost money others are free

https://www.heatspring.com/app/courses/?query=biomass


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## leon (Dec 13, 2017)

Good Morning,

You do not need the outdoor reset as it is needed for a digital triple aquastat control so you can cross that off your list as its a waste of money I never used or needed one in 33 years of wood burning-dont buy anything but a Honeywell L8124L1011 and the corresponding sensor well for it. 

The Mcdonnell & Miller RB-122-E Low water cut off are one and the same and its a good idea to have two of them even though you have a smaller boiler with lower BTU rating. 
Best installation practices for the Mcdonnell and Miller RB-122-E low water cut off are described in the installation and operators manual where both units are wired in series wherein:

The first unit is placed in the boiler steam chest and the second unit is placed in either a vertical pipe pumping away from the boiler or a second unused tapping in the boiler sump and then the BX cable is wire nutted for the powered BX(hot, neutral, ground) from the second Low Water Cut Off to one entrance knock out of the L8124L1011 to provide power to the L8124L1011 to control the boilers circulator(s), being the L6006A dump zone aquastat and circulator(if a second one is used to push overheated water to the dump zone. this is all explained very well by the literature and a well recommended licensed plumber or licensed electrician will also also help you with this with no worries.


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## salecker (Dec 13, 2017)

Ditto on the outdoor reset...
Never heard of then before i built my system.
We heat through a variety of temps and have had no trouble not having one.Even at -40 for over a week our house was toasty warm without a outdoor reset.
I read about them a bit on here but never felt the need to add it after the fact,Leon has more burning time then i do and if he says not required it makes me feel good on my choice to run without one


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## peakbagger (Dec 13, 2017)

Outdoor reset is for oil and Natural gas boilers, pretty much standard on new installs, I agree it wouldn't make a lot of sense for wood.


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## JohnDolz (Dec 13, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> Outdoor reset is for oil and Natural gas boilers, pretty much standard on new installs, I agree it wouldn't make a lot of sense for wood.


In the wood world many in Europe (and some in the US) use Outdoor Reset tied to storage to run lower flow temps.


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## peakbagger (Dec 13, 2017)

JohnDolz said:


> In the wood world many in Europe (and some in the US) use Outdoor Reset tied to storage to run lower flow temps.



I agree, if it was a system with storage then outdoor reset could improve system efficiency, since the OP doesn't have storage I dont see much use for outdoor reset.


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## TCaldwell (Dec 13, 2017)

I will substantiate john’s remarks on outdoor reset, I don’t think the emitters care from what source they are supplied from. As a matter of fact pulling outdoor reset from storage not only creates a more even heat flow but increases flexibility with firing times. Firing storage at night during the largest heat load covers the required supply temps ,as outdoor temps rise during the day the design temp goes down and most likely the lower storage temp will cover it. I agree that outdoor reset with a cold start oil boiler will have wide water temp swings due to a differential time so as not to short cycle, reducing the effectiveness of outdoor reset, but for wood storage it’s great.


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## TCaldwell (Dec 13, 2017)

Peakbagger, we were both typing at the same time, you just finished sooner!


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## uncndl1 (Dec 13, 2017)

Sure do appreciate all the comments above.  It will probably all make better sense once the books arrive and I read them. 
From the owner's manual (and I'll have to look at the previous owner's install), there is a:
1.  Hot water overheat control, Honeywell #4008-B-1013
2.  Master hot water control, Honeywell #L8124C-1003 (high set 200, low set 180, differential 20)
3.  Tridicator #PTA-1088
4.  They recommend a tempering valve, Watts #70A which I do not think the previous installed (it's missing)
5.   There is a tankless coil around the boiler that is currently turned off.  I believe they used this in the winter for hot water but then turned it off during the summer and used electric (possibly to not burn wood or oil in the summer for hot water).  A plumber turned that tankless system off and said it needed a tempering valve to avoid scalding and was dangerous without. 
6.  The original house has cast iron radiators in dining room and 3 upstairs bedrooms.  Zone 1
7.  New addition has the second zone with baseboards for master bedroom and family room.  Zone 2

So from my reading above, it looks like I won't need a outdoor resent controller unless I buy a new oil burner with digital aquastat controller.
Low water cutoff switch's recommended (fairly certain that is currently not installed).
Link to the low water cutoff referenced:  https://www.torrco.com/ASSETS/DOCUMENTS/CMS/EN/41150_PROD_FILE.pdf
Energy audit (this will be scheduled once home from a 3 week work assignment. 
Take care.


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## salecker (Dec 14, 2017)

TCaldwell said:


> I will substantiate john’s remarks on outdoor reset, I don’t think the emitters care from what source they are supplied from. As a matter of fact pulling outdoor reset from storage not only creates a more even heat flow but increases flexibility with firing times. Firing storage at night during the largest heat load covers the required supply temps ,as outdoor temps rise during the day the design temp goes down and most likely the lower storage temp will cover it. I agree that outdoor reset with a cold start oil boiler will have wide water temp swings due to a differential time so as not to short cycle, reducing the effectiveness of outdoor reset, but for wood storage it’s great.


 Just curious...
 On my system 1000 gals storage and all cast iron rads in my house except for a unit heater in my basement.Pumps run 24/7 on my system and have trv's to regulate the rads.On an average winter day of -20C i will start a fire at 5PM and shut off the boiler around 11PM,repet the next day and so on and so on.
 Could you explain how an outdoor reset would help make my system more efficient or create an more even heat flow?
 My rads work with 185F water and keep working down to 110F before my oil boiler kicks in.Room temps never vary if it is 0C or -40C
 Thanks for the info
 Thomas


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## maple1 (Dec 14, 2017)

salecker said:


> Just curious...
> On my system 1000 gals storage and all cast iron rads in my house except for a unit heater in my basement.Pumps run 24/7 on my system and have trv's to regulate the rads.On an average winter day of -20C i will start a fire at 5PM and shut off the boiler around 11PM,repet the next day and so on and so on.
> Could you explain how an outdoor reset would help make my system more efficient or create an more even heat flow?
> My rads work with 185F water and keep working down to 110F before my oil boiler kicks in.Room temps never vary if it is 0C or -40C
> ...



Can of worms ahead - lol. I have been in that discussion before I think.


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## peakbagger (Dec 14, 2017)

Take this course and then ask the question again https://www.heatspring.com/courses/mastering-hydronic-system-design/

The problem is few of us have the luxury of doing clean sheet design. I worked with I had and how much I cared to spend and went from there long before I took the course to add in my wood boiler and then my storage several years later. It was a good course but realistically the cost to design and install an ideal system far exceeds what a typical homeowner would most likely be willing to spend. I expect there is little choice between a hot tub or granite countertops instead of a slightly more efficient heating system to most homeowners. That said I have seen the reduced oil usage of adding outdoor reset on a couple of fairly basic oil systems. I have one but I dont use it as it doesn't integrate well with my current relay based control system that is piggybacked on top of my oil boiler controls. A PLC would be nice but a PITA to reprogram in few years when Windows jumps a version and the PLC program is not upgraded (been there done that at work and dont want to do it again)

I believe it boils down to running the lowest supply temperature to the emitters possible to maintain the required temperature in the house. This cuts down on losses in the piping. Installing TRVs in each room does give very fine control albeit with a higher than needed supply temp to cover the coldest room but even those systems usually use a outdoor reset on the main loop. John's approaches vary but in the case of two heating sources, what he usually ends up is circulating water through the supply loops and then reheating the return via hydraulic separators to the minimum supply temp that will maintain the building using the outdoor reset. In this case the storage acts as the primary heat source with the oil boiler isolated via a hydraulic separator until the storage drops below setpoint. At that time the storage is also isolated via a separator when the boiler is running. If I wanted to integrate a mini split (which is limited on temp output) I would get one of American Solar technics water to water units and tie that into the loop. The setup also will need two heat exchangers on the storage tank or some creative valving to use the same coil for both charging and discharging.

My system definitely has some rough edges, it went in before I took the course and its definitely not ideal but to do it over is a pretty major project and based on effectively free heat from my mini split (due to net metered solar), 3.5 cords a year from maximum wood usage from a free supply, and just about zero oil use,  its hard to justify a controls and piping upgrade. My Burnham wood boiler was used and abused when I got it and someday it will finally wear out, when I do I will have to do some upgrades to the piping to fit a new Froling (or equivalent) and may take advantage of that to make improvements to the controls and piping. Long before that I would swap out my slant fin for low temp emitters and get a big effective boost on my storage capacity to extend times between firings.

Of course when I got to sell the place I expect I would need to rip most of it out to appeal to a typical home buyer. With my current setup, I break a few unions and possibly a few sweat fittings and I have regular run of the mill oil system once I move the storage tank and wood boiler out.


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## Tennman (Dec 15, 2017)

Love, love, love our Winhager pellet boiler. It is an amazing piece of technology. It feeds 1000 gal of storage we have for our BioMass wood boiler. I now burn wood when I feel like it. Now load a few bags of pellets when needed. Sorry, don't have time to read all the posts. Just noticed that Winhager wasn't in your trade study.3rd season with Winhager and has worked essentially flawless! On a scale of 1-5 for satisfaction.... I'm a 6.


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## uncndl1 (Dec 18, 2017)

Had a plumber come inspect our system.  He agrees with some of the first suggestions above that the oil burner analysis is needed along with a good cleaning.  He’s scheduling the work and will also do a firm quote for a new future oil burner if and when that will be needed.  Heat loss calculations and energy audit are next on the to do list after talking to NYSERDA.


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## Potsdam (Dec 19, 2017)

If you refer to any material of John Siegenthaler, remember.... he is a very educated man and his train of thought  is spend lots of money when the same thing can be achieved much simpler and cheaper. GREAT resource in theory though. I would lean toward Leons perspective on this problem solving quest as the winter is at our toes. Freshen the system up for the winter and give yourself more time to digest a resolve for the long term. 500 gallons of oil IMO is not bad considering what I was up against a few years ago refilling my tank once a month during the winter. New projects can easily cost $15k or more, while upgrades could be somewhat less.


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## Clarkbug (Dec 20, 2017)

uncndl1 said:


> Had a plumber come inspect our system.  He agrees with some of the first suggestions above that the oil burner analysis is needed along with a good cleaning.  He’s scheduling the work and will also do a firm quote for a new future oil burner if and when that will be needed.  Heat loss calculations and energy audit are next on the to do list after talking to NYSERDA.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Im not too far away from where you are in Ballston Spa, so welcome to the site!  

I believe that NYSERDA is still running some incentives for residential biomass installations, but they involve a lot of extra steps.  But its worth at least $10k, so maybe its worth it....

https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/All-Programs/Programs/Renewable-Heat-NY

I believe you cannot have bulk pellet storage inside your home for their incentives due to CO offgassing.  They will want you to put a bin in an external shed or something similar...  

Its a little off your main topic, but you mentioned that you had an old electric domestic water heater that was going to need to be replaced.  While you certainly can plumb that into storage, looking into a heat pump water heater (depending on where its located in your home) might also be a good energy/cost savings option for you.

I would suggest getting any airsealing or additional installation done before any other heating system changes, just to help you purchase the smallest system that will meet your needs.  

NYSERDA also had John Siegenthaler teach a basics of biomass course over at the tech center in Malta last year, and they may offer it again at some point in the future.


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## uncndl1 (Dec 21, 2017)

Thank you, that’s a great idea regarding heat pump water heater.  I’ll have to research that project more.
It’s in the basement next to the Tarm to the left.
Still waiting on NYSERDA about an energy audit.
Going top get things running as clean as possible and weather proof the house and save money for now.
Shying away a new pellet boiler and going to get some use out of the beast.



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## peakbagger (Dec 21, 2017)

Sounds like you are heading in the right direction.


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## Clarkbug (Dec 23, 2017)

uncndl1 said:


> View attachment 218311
> 
> Thank you, that’s a great idea regarding heat pump water heater.  I’ll have to research that project more.
> It’s in the basement next to the Tarm to the left.
> ...



Post back when you hear about an audit to share the results.  But I think thats a good plan to tune the ol' girl up best you can.  Your oil usage isnt terrible, and given the current fuel prices will be hard to make the justification from a payback perspective if your equipment is still going without issue.


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## leon (Apr 8, 2018)

Your running your water temperature way, way, way, way too high. 
I ran my hand fed wood and coal boiler at summer temperatures which are where I operate my coal stoker boiler set at 160 high 140 low being summer operating temperatures.

If your looking to replace the Tarm wait, do the repairs to upgrade the controls and wiring and safeguard the current system until you decide to change it or if you are forded to due to a weld failure as you will extend the life of the boiler for many more years by lowering the operating temperatures and cleaning the boiler completely by removing the top cover and brushing out the vertical tubes.

When the time comes your going to find that after number crunching a coal stoker boiler will cost you less to own and operate and you can get all your hot water the year round.


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## uncndl1 (Apr 8, 2018)

leon said:


> Your running your water temperature way, way, way, way too high.
> I ran my hand fed wood and coal boiler at summer temperatures which are where I operate my coal stoker boiler set at 160 high 140 low being summer operating temperatures.
> 
> If your looking to replace the Tarm wait, do the repairs to upgrade the controls and wiring and safeguard the current system until you decide to change it or if you are forded to due to a weld failure as you will extend the life of the boiler for many more years by lowering the operating temperatures and cleaning the boiler completely by removing the top cover and brushing out the vertical tubes.
> ...



Thank you for your thoughts.
Not sure this old Tarm has vertical heat exchanger tubes to clean.  Certainly not mentioned in the directions of owner manual.  I can take the top cover off and have a look.  Just had her cleaned and serviced for the 3rd season.  Measured 78% efficiency as before.  
Appreciate your thoughts on Coal stoker.  Friend has a Harmon Coal burner with a perfect spot to heat entire main living area.  We do not have that luxury nor space to store 2 tons of coal like they do.
Update on energy analysis:
We need some insulation along sill plate in basement, a new door and windows to tighten up the leaky old house.  It was a bad winter here and our oil usage was 800 gallons this season.  Saving up for a new oil burning boiler when this one quits working.


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## leon (Apr 8, 2018)

uncndl1 said:


> Thank you for your thoughts.
> Not sure this old Tarm has vertical heat exchanger tubes to clean.  Certainly not mentioned in the directions of owner manual.  I can take the top cover off and have a look.  Just had her cleaned and serviced for the 3rd season.  Measured 78% efficiency as before.
> Appreciate your thoughts on Coal stoker.  Friend has a Harmon Coal burner with a perfect spot to heat entire main living area.  We do not have that luxury nor space to store 2 tons of coal like they do.
> Update on energy analysis:
> ...


============================================================================================



I am almost positive that the dual fuels just like the wood/ coal units in that configuration as I went to look at an installation very near me as I was looking at buying a tarm before I settled on the switzer as I still had a dedicated oil boiler in good condition.

The Gentleman I visited pulled the cover off and the steel plate and showed me the vertical tubes and how he cleaned them using a round stove brush to clear the tubes of creosote build up. I do not remember if it had four or six tubes but I believe it had six tubes as it was a wood coal unit.


Which one of the items that I listed to you are something he disagrees with installing?????

Can you please post more pictures of your system as soon as possible? I would like to know whether you have a steel compression tank or a bladder tank. A steel compression can be used with an existing air scoop on your system. 

You need a back flow preventor and a pressure regulator if you do not have one 
I would least remove the triple gauge from its tapping and soak the probe in a glass of hydrogen peroxide to clean it by just lowering it into a sturdy water glass. 

You should do this with both the high limit aquastat probe well and the horizontal triple aquastat probe well as well as they will have build up on them that will cause an incorrect temperature measurement for the triple gauge and incorrect sensing of the water temperature by the triple aquastat. 

If the triple aquastat has the conductive grease in the well you can just soak it in a short glass of hydrogen peroxide for a couple of days to clean all three items. 


The great thing about the automatic Low Water Cut Off is that it will shut the boilers electrical system down completely if it senses a low water condition and the oil fire will stop if you are burning oil.  
The LWCO is installed as the first control for a boiler to assure that the power supply is cut off completely in the event of a low water condition.


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## uncndl1 (Apr 8, 2018)

[QUOTE="leon, Can you please post more pictures of your system as soon as possible? I would like to know whether you have a steel compression tank or a bladder tank. A steel compression can be used with an existing air scoop on your system. 
.[/QUOTE]
The compression tank is a huge beast in the floor joists above.  I can post more pictures next week.
Best regards, Kris



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## leon (Apr 9, 2018)

Hello Kris,


Thank you for going in to more detail for me.
Please do not let anyone talk you in to removing the steel compression tank it will
continue working silently for you for 50 more years if you stay in your current home.
I have a 15 gallon steel compression tank and It works with no problems and I am
able to run my single loop of 225+feet of baseboard at pressures of 4-12 PSI with no issues.


I look forward to seeing more images of your system.


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## maple1 (Apr 9, 2018)

leon said:


> Hello Kris,
> 
> 
> Thank you for going in to more detail for me.
> ...



Maybe you meant, don't let anyone talk you into removing it?


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## leon (Apr 9, 2018)

Yes that is what I ment Maple1 and I corrected my mistake. :^0


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## JMihevic (Apr 10, 2018)

uncndl1 said:


> . . . . Not sure this old Tarm has vertical heat exchanger tubes to clean.  Certainly not mentioned in the directions of owner manual.  I can take the top cover off and have a look.  Just had her cleaned and serviced for the 3rd season.  Measured 78% efficiency as before . . . .



The Tarm OT (28, 30, 50 & 70) series were sold in the U.S. in the late ‘70’s until about 1980.  They did not have a tube heat exchanger.  It was just a big fire chamber surrounded by water which was heated by wood, oil or electric.

In the early ‘80’s Tarm came out with the 500 series that improved on the OT series.  This model had the fire tube heat exchanger tubes.  The 500 series had separate fire tubes for the oil side and the wood side.

The OT series had a common “wet wall” at the outlet to extract heat from the exit gases.  If you are going to use the OT just for oil, I would really clean the creosote that formed from wood burning off the wall to get the most efficient operation for oil only operation.

John M.


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## leon (Apr 10, 2018)

Thanks for refreshing my memory john It was either a model 502 or 504 that I looked at and it was great simple design with the three separate aquastats that eliminated the need for a triple aquastat.

The Tarm 202 and 303 coal boilers had a round coal grate that ground the clinkers to drop them through the round grate and keep the air supply going through the round grate.

The Tarm 303 coal boiler had 5 vertical round heat exchanger tubes in the water chamber which also had a vertical water coil in the pressure vessel above the fire box.

The Tarm 202 and 303 boiler could also burn wood if needed.

Beautiful engineering!! Its a real shame they are no longer made.







It would have been very easy to install a low water cut off  in the 502 and 504 boilers too


I had forgotten that they had 6 electric elements to heat the boiler water with 220 volt heating elements.

 The units had fusible plugs in the water jackets in the event of a boiler possibly overheating and boiling dry.

The cost at the time for both the dual fuel and wood coal only unit was much more than what I could
afford so I bought a Switzer WC100 wood coal boiler instead-looking back I should have bought a Van Wert A400 coal stoker even though it was 2 thousand dollars more installed but hindsight of course........................................


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## JMihevic (Apr 10, 2018)

leon said:


> . . Beautiful engineering!! Its a real shame they are no longer made . . .



You can say that again.  I have a Tarm MB55 Solo that I installed in 1980 and have used it every year for 38 years.  It works flawlessly.  I like the simplicity of the controls; a mechanical draft regulator and no electronics to fail. I have not replaced one single part on the boiler.  I heated continuously through January and February of this year.  I have read threads on this forum about problems with “back puffing”.  My Tarm has never done that.  Before reading the threads, I didn’t know what it was.

John M.


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## uncndl1 (Apr 12, 2018)

leon said:


> Hello Kris,
> 
> 
> Thank you for going in to more detail for me.
> ...


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## uncndl1 (Apr 12, 2018)

Here are some more images:


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## uncndl1 (Apr 12, 2018)

I uploaded some photos for you all (see above).
Concerning the gigantic steel compression tank, are there any instructions on how to maintain them?


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## peakbagger (Apr 12, 2018)

I am not sure what a compression tank is. Usually there is an expansion tank in most systems. The old style tanks mounted up under floor joists and were just a big air bubble in the system to absorb the extra volume from the water when it heated up. They worked but eventually the bubble disappeared as the air got absorbed into the water. Some folks blame this style for premature corrosion in the boiler and piping. The new style have a flexible membrane inside, the water expands and contracts while the membrane keep the transfer of air down to minimum. Most new systems have these.

The maintenance on the old style expansion tanks is every year or so is drain the tank down when the system is cold and let it fill with air. There is usually a drain with a hose connection at the base of the tank where the piping is attached to. All you normally do is isolate the expansion piping, open the drain and drain the tank out, close the drain valve then make sure you open the isolation valve on the expansion loop. if the tank is waterlogged, you will start seeing leaks at the weakest part of the system.

Those photos of the exterior corrosion of the boiler are pretty scary. One of the units I have seen with a dome seal leak looked better than yours.


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## uncndl1 (Apr 12, 2018)

Expansion tank it is.  I was using the term compression tank that Leon talked about in a previous post.
This system is 38 years old now, which is why I started the thread.  All of the comments are appreciated.
I've learned alot from you all as well as the reading.
Best regards


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## leon (Apr 12, 2018)

Many of the old steel compression tanks were installed without airtrol valves and the system also had been saddled with automatic fill valves in a later repair and that is why they become waterlogged in 99% of cases. Automatic fill valves are a no no unless they are valved off and shut off after the boiler is filled and bled of excess water.

I have my system valved off and the water shut off and I have no issues with a water logged tank as I have an airtrol valve in the base of the 15 gallon steel compression tank.

If you have an airtrol valve in the base of the steel tank you do not have to do anything with it once the 1/3 air 2/3 water volume is set after draining the excess water from the steel compression tank with the water drain valve in the airtrol valve.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you have a bladder expansion tank it will benefit you to change it out with a new one of the same or greater capacity as the rubber bladders will leak and let in water on the air side over time and after 38 years I am sure it is ready to go to the happy hunting ground. 


If you want to do the work yourself you need to remove the boiler skin after you remove the plumbing from the tappings and remove all the rust and spray paint the boiler shell with high temperature paint to overcome the rust issues.

Its not that hard to do as long as you have good tools and the right size pipe or chain wrenches to remove the old pipe and install the new pipe and fittings, pipe taps, and  pipe dope-NO TAPE and a few other items and you will be well on your way.

It may be time to retire the burner and replace it with a new small Riello or Beckett burner as the system should be running at a much higher efficiency with oil.

The boiler needs work and would benefit from a gallon or two boiler treatment and draining the water supply to remove any rust and debris as long as your going to remove the probe wells and clean them and install the new controls and low water cut off. The flue pipe needs to be replaced too and it needs flue joint tape as well.

You need a new blow off valve too as it looks like it has been leaking on the steam chest .
(you should have a spare blow off valve, circulator and triple aquastat for piece of mind too.
All I need to do is buy a stoker motor, fan motor and timer motor to finish filling my spare parts box as I have a spare circulator and new triple aquastat.

A bit of improved plumbing and installing a new header pipe for the circulators and 2 sets of isolation flanges with dual gauge ports for the vacuum and pressure gauges to keep track of the circulators operating condition and you will be ready for the next heating season.

When you get further along after the plumbing is removed you should plug all the tappings and fill the boiler with water to 60 pounds for 24 hours check for water leaks and call HSTARM and ask about the gasket for the heat exchanger and whether it should be changed and ask about cleaning or replacing the hot water coil as long as you have it stripped down this far.


You need to replace the close to the boiler copper and globe valves. as its corroding at the joints and replace it with schedule 40 black steel pipe as you will have a faster time reassembling it with unions and it will go back together much faster.
The 2 B+G spring check valves will have gathered a considerable amount of rust on the closing/mating surfaces and the stem packings leak-mine did and I got rid of them as the replacement plumbing eliminated the need for them
Once you have the right size header pipe coming off the top of the steam chest or side tapping you will not need them. 




Once you have a circulator module made up in your pipe vice the installation will go very very fast and you can use unions on the domestic hot water lines when you install the replacement ball valves too.

I AM NOT trying to spend your money I had to deal with a really bad plumber and his mistakes and bad triple aquastats that were never ment for solid fuel boilers after the fact.


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## uncndl1 (Apr 12, 2018)

leon said:


> Many of the old steel compression tanks were installed without airtrol valves and the system also had been saddled with automatic fill valves in a later repair and that is why they become waterlogged in 99% of cases. Automatic fill valves are a no no unless they are valved off and shut off after the boiler is filled and bled of excess water.
> 
> I have my system valved off and the water shut off and I have no issues with a water logged tank as I have an airtrol valve in the base of the 15 gallon steel compression tank.
> 
> ...



Great suggestions.
She’s still working but don’t think I’ll be refurbishing the boiler and burner assembly.
I’m saving up for a new oil burning boiler and will be getting quotes.
I’m open to recommendations on types and styles as there are more than one type available.
I’d also like new circulatory on the outlet of boiler with a purge setup which I don’t have now.
Thanks.


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## peakbagger (Apr 13, 2018)

Take good look at a System 2000 boiler. Hard to beat as its low mass cold start unit so no standby loss.


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## uncndl1 (Apr 13, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> Take good look at a System 2000 boiler. Hard to beat as its low mass cold start unit so no standby loss.


I downloaded a brochure of that one but need a better understanding of how to size the unit properly as well as consider thermal storage

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## peakbagger (Apr 13, 2018)

You don't use thermal storage with a low mass cold start boiler even if you did tie into a wood fired system, its most likely that the storage would be bypassed.


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## uncndl1 (Apr 14, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> You don't use thermal storage with a low mass cold start boiler even if you did tie into a wood fired system, its most likely that the storage would be bypassed.



I guess I have more reading to do.
With the big 5 radiators upstairs and 2 downstairs and all of the baseboard emitters I thought I would need a storage tank.
Appreciate your suggestion.


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## peakbagger (Apr 14, 2018)

Plenty of houses much larger than yours operate quite well without storage. With an oil or gas boiler, you can crank up a lot of heat instantly and when you dont need it it turns off. With a wood boiler you cant turn it on and off quickly, there is lot of mass that needs to be heated up and that takes awhile.. The old style systems like yours do try to adjust the heat output to the demand in the house by shutting down the air to the boiler. It sort of works but it creates a lot of creosote and eats wood and pisses off the neighbors especially on days when there isnt heating demand. The reason it pisses off the neighbors is you are dumping a lot of partially combusted gases out the stack into the surrounding air and it can really stink. 

The new style wood boilers are designed to run clean and be a lot more efficient. How they do it is put in a storage tank to hold the heat generated by the boiler and then only pull out of the tank when you need to the heat. Since the oil boiler can be turned on and off quickly it does not make sense to heat up the storage tank.


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## leon (Apr 14, 2018)

It would be worth your while to seriously look at a small coal stoker boiler too as you will be provided with lots of heat and all 5 gallons per minute of domestic hot water per minute the year round if you want to make hot water the year round

The only mistake I made was buying a Keytoker KAA-4-1 which is a dual fuel unit-coal/oil or coal/gas instead of a AHS S130 coal stoker boiler

The Alternate Heating Systems S130 coal stoker is small in size but pushes 130,000+ BTU and will provide you with plenty of heat for your home and you can leave the Tarm in place and only burn oil when you need to or when you go away.


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## salecker (Apr 14, 2018)

uncndl1 said:


> I guess I have more reading to do.
> With the big 5 radiators upstairs and 2 downstairs and all of the baseboard emitters I thought I would need a storage tank.
> Appreciate your suggestion.
> 
> ...


I have a wood boiler with storage in a separate building.My oil boiler backup is in the same building.When running the oil boiler it bypasses the storage.
 We have 10 cast iron rads in our house,and a unit heater in the basement,there is no difference in the heat from the oil boiler and wood boiler,other than the wood boiler goes to a higher temp. And i have no "outdoor reset" thingy .


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## maple1 (Apr 14, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> You don't use thermal storage with a low mass cold start boiler even if you did tie into a wood fired system, its most likely that the storage would be bypassed.



That comment might be confusing. You might not utilize storage when your oil unit is burning but you still want storage to use when burning with your wood boiler.


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## uncndl1 (Apr 15, 2018)

Since I want to continue using oil for our heating needs, it’s looking like it comes down to a newer design cast iron non-condensing boiler 3 pass versus a newer yet condensing boiler.
Skill of installer, familiarity with systems, and service seem to factor in also.
I found one comment that stated “a moderate equipment installed properly trumps the best available condensing system installed incorrectly”.
Longevity, reliability, and performance also factor into my decision.
The cost effectiveness of a higher energy efficiency system is not appealing if it winds up costing more in service calls.
When swapping out for new, the old system will need to be thoroughly cleaned before installing a new boiler.
I’ll be getting firm quotes for a new boiler system and go from there.
I’ll probably only be gaining 10% efficiency or so but peace of mind of a possible system failure is worth something.  
Appreciate all your comments.



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## peakbagger (Apr 15, 2018)

maple1 said:


> That comment might be confusing. You might not utilize storage when your oil unit is burning but you still want storage to use when burning with your wood boiler.



Thanks, that s what I meant, Direct to the radiators on oil. Use the storage when on wood.


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## Bad LP (Apr 15, 2018)

The EK2000 is a decent low mass boiler. I have both the oil and LP burning models. It is not a good boiler for RFH and it works fine for HWBB and I'm sure it will shine with CI radiators. You will benefit from having as many zones as possible.

I have these piped two ways. Oil has 8 small pumps with check valve on every zone. LP system has a single larger system pump with zone valves and works seamlessly with my wood boiler. Both are using indirect DHW.

Oil system is 29 years old and has been reliable with yearly cleanings minus some stupid fuse issues. LP system in a remote location has also been reliable but I needed to add a buffer tank to the RFH loops to stop the short cycling that was driving me out of my mind.


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## Dutchie84 (Apr 16, 2018)

Bad LP said:


> LP system in a remote location has also been reliable but I needed to add a buffer tank to the RFH loops to stop the short cycling that was driving me out of my mind.



What part of the short cycling was driving you out of your mind?  I am installing an mod con lp boiler with RFH in my new house and am a bit worried about short cycling.  After much looking I still can't really find a definition of how long of a run time would be consider short cycling.


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## Bad LP (Apr 16, 2018)

Dutchie84 said:


> What part of the short cycling was driving you out of your mind?  I am installing an mod con lp boiler with RFH in my new house and am a bit worried about short cycling.  After much looking I still can't really find a definition of how long of a run time would be consider short cycling.


It would start, run for 3-5 mins shut off for 3 mins then repeat. Would do it all freaking day. Felt like every time I was working in the shop the boiler was running. Talked to my buddy who does all the HVAC work at another location for me and his reply was low mass boilers and RFH are not a good combination as they cool down to quickly. Told me to install a 40 gallon electric water heater (not wired) in the loop as a storage tank. Now depending on the heat load of the house the boiler will run for 5-7 mins and might not come back on for nearly 40 mins to an hour after.

The EK2000 does a nice job heating DHW and I'm not sure what I would do if it died. Hot water is a year round need, heating the building is not. I do think I'm going to remove the DHW off the wood boiler. As the water cools the DHW calls and it robs the heat from the house trying to make hot water and it really ends up not making any. Can't make 50 gallons of 150 degree water with 600 gallons of 120 degree storage.


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## peakbagger (Apr 16, 2018)

I need to replace my oil boiler one of these years and if I could get deal on a system 2000 (EK 2000 is another name for the same thing) I would.

The hassle with giving advise over forums is every house and situation is like a rubik's cube.  A good heating designer goes in with a lot of background and then has to make the right design compromises that a homeowner can afford. I brought up John Siegenthaler previously as he sets a high bar on his designs. If cost is not an object its hard to beat them but few folks who are reading a woodburning forum are going to write the check to have John design a system and pay the installer what it is going to cost to install and operate the design.

My solar hot water system was on line before my wood boiler. It covers my summer heating demand directly but in the winter it doesn't heat the water up enough. My solution was to repair a leaky "hot water maker" that is heated with a zone off my wood or oil boiler to supply winter hot water. I flip a few valves and the SHW system supplies preheated warm water in the winter to the hot water maker. I don't use a lot of hot water so I just charge up the hot water maker tank to 180 degrees with hot water from the wood boiler via a zone when my storage temp has peaked out. The wood boiler is still hot so I just turn on the hot water zone and it heats the hot water maker. I also use SHW warm water to supply the mixing valve so the mixing valve is mixing a high percentage warm water to just a little 180 degree water. Absolute worse case is if I really need hot water immediately my SHW storage tank has an electric coil in it. I just go turn on the breaker and about 10 minutes later I have hot water. Note I do have a hot water mixing valve with integrated anti scald protection inside it.  Yes its complex system with lots of valves and bypasses. If I had to pay someone to do it I probably would not but since I DIY, I spend a bit more for fittings as I am not paying for labor.


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## Dutchie84 (Apr 20, 2018)

Bad LP said:


> It would start, run for 3-5 mins shut off for 3 mins then repeat. Would do it all freaking day. Felt like every time I was working in the shop the boiler was running. Talked to my buddy who does all the HVAC work at another location for me and his reply was low mass boilers and RFH are not a good combination as they cool down to quickly. Told me to install a 40 gallon electric water heater (not wired) in the loop as a storage tank. Now depending on the heat load of the house the boiler will run for 5-7 mins and might not come back on for nearly 40 mins to an hour after.



Out of curiosity did the LP boiler that you had modulate it output?  What size was it if you remember?


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## Bad LP (Apr 20, 2018)

Dutchie84 said:


> Out of curiosity did the LP boiler that you had modulate it output?  What size was it if you remember?



No. The EK2000 is not a modulating boiler. Simple on/off. I don't recall the output in its current configuration but want to say it is 68-70K BTU's.


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## uncndl1 (Apr 24, 2018)

uncndl1 said:


> Great suggestions.
> She’s still working but don’t think I’ll be refurbishing the boiler and burner assembly.
> I’m saving up for a new oil burning boiler and will be getting quotes.
> I’m open to recommendations on types and styles as there are more than one type available.
> ...


Had our 1st quote.
Called the company recommended by EK.
They said they prefer the Buderus and the quote complete new system installed and old hauled off for $9,495.00
Two more quotes later this week.

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## uncndl1 (May 17, 2018)

She's coming out when we figure how to move 1000 pounds of steel






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## salecker (May 18, 2018)

Cut up some lengths of small pipe as rollers.Lift it up with a Jack All and place the rollers under it and angle them in the direction you want the boiler to move. Have a bunch the you can keep feeding them in the front as you roll it towards the opening where it is headed.I moved my Econoburn 200 by myself with rollers.


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## maple1 (May 18, 2018)

Lots of tricks, depends on your situation & obstacles. Dollies, pallet jack. You could even slide it maybe easier than expecting if you get some flat bar under it - steel on steel slides pretty good. Prybars...


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## uncndl1 (May 18, 2018)

It's in a 4 " concrete pedestal and must make a hard left to get to bilco doors in adjacent shop off basement.
Then up a flight of stairs to outside.





maple1 said:


> Lots of tricks, depends on your situation & obstacles. Dollies, pallet jack. You could even slide it maybe easier than expecting if you get some flat bar under it - steel on steel slides pretty good. Prybars...



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## maple1 (May 18, 2018)

Turn it into smaller pieces?


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## uncndl1 (May 19, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Turn it into smaller pieces?


Thanks!  Going to get a company in to use a plasma cutter.  These Tarms were made tough


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## salecker (May 19, 2018)

When i finished building my house i had to get a RSF 100 Wood Furnace out of the basement.I put it in with my backhoe before the floor was built. My furnace room was 5 inches lower than my finished wood floor in the basement.Then make a 90 degree turn down the hall to through the old kitchen to the outside door. I used pipe rollers then too.I had to jack the furnace up with a jack all to level it up with the floor then installed the pipe rollers.I had to remove the door and frame to get enough room to get through the basement door. Once outside i used my wrecker to winch it up out of the stairwell outside the basement.I wanted it out in one piece so i could sell or reuse the RSF 100.


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## uncndl1 (May 24, 2018)

uncndl1 said:


> Thanks!  Going to get a company in to use a plasma cutter.  These Tarms were made tough
> 
> 
> Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


It's half price to jack ...jimmy..and roll out....and the steel will he recycled..great advice and guidance.
Thanks!

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