# heat pump water heater deal



## GaryGary (May 11, 2013)

Hi,
Ran across this closeout ebay deal on  Nyletherm heat pump water heater:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281103711054?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Thought some here  might be interested?

I bought one just to have a heat pump to experiment with -- I'm sure my spouse will appreciate what a great bargain it is 

Gary


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## semipro (May 12, 2013)

Thanks Gary.  I'm trying to figure out how to make use of one.


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## brogsie (May 15, 2013)

Do you think this would work with a hot water storage tank from an oil boiler? (Superstor) It looks like it hooks up to the draw off.
I run a dehumidifier in my basement 8 months a year any ways.


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## maple1 (May 15, 2013)

Pretty sure it would.

Those have been on Ebay for a while - I remember looking at them last year sometime. I think they're wired 220, rather than plugging in to 110? Looks like a pretty decent deal though.


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## brogsie (May 15, 2013)

Thanks Maple,
When you Google Nyletherm it shows a price of $299. when you go to e bay it's $369.
Interested to see how they look Gary.


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## dougstove (May 15, 2013)

Can someone explain the principle a bit more?
It cools the basement air and transfers the heat to a water tank?
It has dehumidifier action along with the cooling (capturing the condensation as the air cools)?


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## GaryGary (May 15, 2013)

dougstove said:


> Can someone explain the principle a bit more?
> It cools the basement air and transfers the heat to a water tank?
> It has dehumidifier action along with the cooling (capturing the condensation as the air cools)?


 
My understanding is that it extracts heat from whatever space its in, and adds that heat to the water tank its warming.  The COP is around 2 to 2.5 meaning that 2 to 2.5 times as much heat is delivered to the hot water tank than if you just used a resistance heating element.

The heat that it takes out of the airspace its operating in can be good or bad -- if the its located within your conditioned space, then its  good in the summer because it reduces the load on your AC and provides some free house cooling, but, bad in the winter because it increases the load on your furnace, which has to reheat the air cooled by the heat pump.  

It also removes moisture from the airspace its operating in, which goes to a condensate drain.

It is a 220 VAC unit -- I'd guess its 220 because that makes it easy to hook up to an electric water heater.

I'm hoping to find some clever way of using it so that it does not extract heat from my conditioned airspace in the winter -- maybe some form of simple solar air heating collector to heat the airspace its in, and only run it during the day?  Or, maybe something like the scheme shown in this paper http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WaterHeating/TC47paperAug05-1-1.pdf.
Another possibility would be to locate it in an area that you want to be refrigerated, but this would lower the COP some?
Any other ideas?

Gary


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## woodgeek (May 16, 2013)

Gary gave a great explanation, but I thought I'd expand on the heat stealing...

There have been several large studies of the heat stealing issue by folks at the national labs, and they have concluded that even in northern climates it is a much smaller issue than one might think. In an unfinished basement install, it pulls down the temp by a couple degrees, most homeowners don't notice or care, and the 'stolen' heat is just BTUs that would have gone into the earth anyway. Mine is in an attached garage, semi-conditioned, and it pulls down the temp about 1 degree on average out there.

If the COP is 2 (which is more likely in a winter basement), that means half of the heat delivered to the water comes from the grid (work/heat from the compressor motor), and the other half from the space. The math works out that so long as your space heating BTUs are cheaper than electric resistance BTUs, a HPWH will still save money over conventional when 'stealing' from a 100% conditioned space.


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## mywaynow (May 16, 2013)

Having my wood stove in my basement, would this be a good choice to reduce the overall cost of heating the domestic water via oil burner vs the added electric cost of running the unit?  How far from the holding tank can the exchanger be?


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## maple1 (May 16, 2013)

mywaynow said:


> Having my wood stove in my basement, would this be a good choice to reduce the overall cost of heating the domestic water via oil burner vs the added electric cost of running the unit? How far from the holding tank can the exchanger be?


 
I think ANYTHING but oil would be a good choice to reduce your overall costs. Even a plain electric water heater should have substantially lower operating costs - for me it was less than half the cost of oil (conservative estimates = 3/4 gallon of oil/day vs $30/mo for electric). So take that COP of 2 or better and you'd cut it in half again (talking rough numbers). If one also uses a dehumidifier, a HPWH could eliminate that usage - factor that in if applicable. You could also do some DIY ducting to draw air into the HPWH from a warmer spot (e.g. behind the fridge or a sun-warmed floor corner), and eject it to where you want it to be cooler (e.g. main living space in hot summer). The unit should be as close as possible to your water tank - plus the lines to & from should be insulated to the point of overkill.


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## woodgeek (May 16, 2013)

mywaynow said:


> Having my wood stove in my basement, would this be a good choice to reduce the overall cost of heating the domestic water via oil burner vs the added electric cost of running the unit? How far from the holding tank can the exchanger be?


 
Myself, with a family of 4, my elec usage went down after I had the HPWH installed...lower dehumidifier and AC costs. Usual estimate is $200/yr electric cost for a family, not including other savings. Compare to your oil expenditures.


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## Dave A. (May 16, 2013)

Sorry to sound negative but seems like buying a pig in a poke. Installation manual in pdf not available until after purchase, very few specs given -- don't even see dimensions of the unit, no mfr warranty.

Agree with Gary's explanation of how they run except



GaryGary said:


> The COP is around 2 to 2.5 meaning that 2 to 2.5 times as much heat is delivered to the hot water tank than if you just used a resistance heating element.


 
It's probably more like the cost of running could be 1/2 to 1/2.5 the cost of resistance electric at best. You'll never get 2 to 2.5 times the output. Since you're limited to 6000 btu output with this and a resistance heater is likely putting out over 15,000 btu you can only do a portion of heating the water with it -- likely mostly standby loses. Recovery heating the water up after use is just not going to be fast enough to prevent resistance from kicking in. Just my take on it.


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## woodgeek (May 16, 2013)

You're correct.

Recovery can be slow....to make the most of it, you need a big tank (compared to your max usage in a say 6 hour period), and you need to set the resistance element thermostat (on the tank) low or off to achieve real savings.


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## GaryGary (May 16, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Gary gave a great explanation, but I thought I'd expand on the heat stealing...
> 
> There have been several large studies of the heat stealing issue by folks at the national labs, and they have concluded that even in northern climates it is a much smaller issue than one might think. In an unfinished basement install, it pulls down the temp by a couple degrees, most homeowners don't notice or care, and the 'stolen' heat is just BTUs that would have gone into the earth anyway. Mine is in an attached garage, semi-conditioned, and it pulls down the temp about 1 degree on average out there.
> 
> If the COP is 2 (which is more likely in a winter basement), that means half of the heat delivered to the water comes from the grid (work/heat from the compressor motor), and the other half from the space. The math works out that so long as your space heating BTUs are cheaper than electric resistance BTUs, a HPWH will still save money over conventional when 'stealing' from a 100% conditioned space.


 
Hi,
One of the things I'm thinking about using the HPWH for is really a space heating application.
I have this system: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/DHWplusSpace/Main.htm which provides nearly all our hot water and provides some space heating.  Basically the 100 sqft solar collector heats an about 280 gallon non-pressurized storage tank.  Domestic water is heated by the tank using a single pass pipe coil heat exchanger, and for space heating, water is pumped from the tank through radiant floor heating loops to the floor above the tank -- the whole thing is in a crawl space under about 500 sf of the house.

The collector area I had available for this system is smaller than I would have liked, and the space heating the system provides is nice, but not nearly 100% of the demand.   I am thinking about using the HPWH for heating the solar storage tank when the temperature falls below something like 90F.  The heat loss for this part of the house under typical winter conditions is about 6K BTU/hr, which (I think) is about the same as the HPWH quoted output -- so, it looks to be a bit marginal on heat output for this application.

On an economic basis, it has to be a winner in that propane in a 90% efficient furnace here is about 12 cents a KWH, and electricity in a COP 2 HP would be about 5 cents a KWH.  It looks like for where we are carbon emissions would be just a bit lower for the 90% efficient propane heater.

Questions/concerns:
- Will the HPWH operating in the crawl space (about 500 sf and 4 ft high = 2000cf) get cooled off so much that a) the heat pump cop will take a big hit, b) will it get cold enough to freeze pipes.  The crawl space ceiling is insulated to R19 and the concrete walls are insulated to R13 -- its a "conditioned crawlspace" with no  vents and normally runs about 50F in the winter.  The floor is dirt covered with plastic -- I've never kept track of the dirt temperature, but I guess its a potential heat source for replacing the heat the HP takes out?  
I suppose that cooling the crawlspace with the HP will increase the heat loss through the floor above the crawlspace, but maybe not enough to invalidate the scheme if a large fraction of the HP heat can come from the dirt floor?

- If the HPWH needs to operate a high percentage of the time, will it stand up to this kind of service?

- Have you seen a COP vs air temperature curve for these HPWHs?

- Did the studies you mentioned give any analysis on where the HP drew its heat from when operating in an unconditioned basement?  

I realize I need to do my homework and run some numbers on this, but just thought if you (or anyone) knows some of this off the top of the head, or has any other thoughts I'd just ask.

I bought the heat pump for experimenting, so it would not be the end of the world if I tried this application and it did not work out.

Gary


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## woodgeek (May 17, 2013)

I'm pretty sanguine about using these HPWH for space heating. 

In a closed system, the 'stolen' BTUs delivered to the space would just be restolen, and the net heat delivery would be just the compressor work, COP = 1. So, stick it in your conditioned space, and you have a very complicated COP=1 device for space heating BTUs. For DHW, you can still come out ahead IF your space heating BTUs (that you are stealing) are cheap.

In a semiconditioned space, you are currently losing some fraction of your space heating to the (warm) earth. IF your DHW BTU load is less than this parasitic loss (in the crawl space), you can 'recover' a fraction of that by cooling your crawlspace to something closer to ground temp (reducing the flow into the ground, but increasing your losses from the floor above somewhat). In this case you can recover a fraction of the space heat BTUs you were previously losing (and perhaps didn't care about).

Note, that in this case if you had superinsulated your floor to eliminate this loss to the earth, then your HP is now outside, and it will shut down at some temp when it gets below 45-55°F. And basically not run in the winter. That is, the units do not have defrost controls (or reverse capability), and are built to not operate under conditions where ice might form on the coils. And the coils get 10-15°F cooler than the airstream.

The key to this scheme working is based on the idea that 50% of our DHW BTU load is typically much less than the existing parasitic losses through a semi-conditioned basement or garage. If they were instead larger, then then (semi-conditioned) space would get cooled below earth/ground temp, and then presumably shut down the unit.

IOW, running flat out for space heat it will chill the crawlspace it is in down to its lower operating temp limit and shut down. IF the heat it delivers is sent to the space overhead, then this might not happen, but your COP = 1.

IDEA: if you want get the max solar BTUs in the winter, you could run down the solar storage temp to below that suitable for DHW, and use the Nyle to make you some DHW (in a new/separate tank). ?? Do you currently run down the storage in the winter, or do you lock out the radiant when the storage gets down to 'tepid shower' temps?


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## Redbarn (May 17, 2013)

Something that has been missed is that the Nyletherm HPWH is an earlier model of the Geyser HPWH.
There are many threads in this Forum about Geysers.


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## Circus (May 18, 2013)

DHW solar collectors are more efficient at low temperatures, especially in winter.
A water source heat pump (WSHP) may have merit. You could tap your "solar storage tank", run it through the WSHP drawing heat from the "solar storage tank". The resulting 140 F water would work nominally for heating.
In effect you'd be cooling the "solar storage tank", not heating it.
PS. 100 sq. ft of panels and 275 gal. of storage are insufficient. Maybe separate SHAir directly heating the house could supplement.
Just thinking out loud.


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## GaryGary (May 18, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> I'm pretty sanguine about using these HPWH for space heating.
> 
> In a closed system, the 'stolen' BTUs delivered to the space would just be restolen, and the net heat delivery would be just the compressor work, COP = 1. So, stick it in your conditioned space, and you have a very complicated COP=1 device for space heating BTUs. For DHW, you can still come out ahead IF your space heating BTUs (that you are stealing) are cheap.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks -- I think you are right -- the space heating based on the HP removing heat from the crawl space is too far a reach.

Will think about the sort of two stage approach with the HP to allow the main heat storage tank to be run at a lower (more efficient) temperature.  Seems like there is something there.  The efficiency of a typical flat plate solar collector goes from about 42% with a tank temp of 120F up to 52% with a tank temp of 90F (both with 30 F ambient).  Would have to look at whether that sort of gain is worth the extra effort or not.

I currently run this system mostly for the hot water heating, and don't let the tank drop below about 110F -- when its above 120F or so, I use the space heating to use the excess.  I realize this is not the way to get the most total heat and best efficiency out of the system, but somehow I have trouble letting go of the 100% solar heated water 
I would probably be better off from a fuel saving perspective to just use the system for space heating in the winter and let the tank temp go down as low as 80F, and then use the system to heat domestic water only during summer and fall.

Gary


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## GaryGary (May 18, 2013)

Circus said:


> DHW solar collectors are more efficient at low temperatures, especially in winter.
> A water source heat pump (WSHP) may have merit. You could tap your "solar storage tank", run it through the WSHP drawing heat from the "solar storage tank". The resulting 140 F water would work nominally for heating.
> In effect you'd be cooling the "solar storage tank", not heating it.
> PS. 100 sq. ft of panels and 275 gal. of storage are insufficient. Maybe separate SHAir directly heating the house could supplement.
> Just thinking out loud.


 

Hi,
I have another solar space heating system with 240 sf of collector -- http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolarShed/solarshed.htm  that helps with the heat bills.
This heats the main part of the house, and the smaller system provides a little space heating to another part of the house.
I do use a large thermosyphon air heating collector for the shop and it works great.

The idea of the 100 sf system was to show that its possible to have a pretty simple system design that provides both space and water heating.  I tell people that 100sf is the absolute bottom end of whats worth doing and that more collector area is highly advisable.  In my case there was only room for a 100 sf collector.

Gary


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## brogsie (May 18, 2013)

Do you know how the Nyletherm knows when the water is at temperature?
Do you tie into the hot water heater's aqua stat?
My stand alone storage tank is on it's own zone off the boiler.


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## GaryGary (May 19, 2013)

brogsie said:


> Do you know how the Nyletherm knows when the water is at temperature?
> Do you tie into the hot water heater's aqua stat?
> My stand alone storage tank is on it's own zone off the boiler.


 
Hi,
I don't know really know any details on the unit  -- waiting for it to arrive with manual.
I'll post something when I know more.


Gary


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## BoilerMan (May 21, 2013)

Gary, I'm curious about it as well.  Why is it so cheap? Chinese? How does it compair to the Geyser, whay parts do they share (if any)?  Great info, and I've read alot of your projects!  Looking to do something different with the 115 gal hot water tank.

TS


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## peakbagger (May 22, 2013)

I think they are US product. It happens all the time when a distributor goes under or a company changes models that they have left over inventory. Nothing wrong with it, they just dont want the old model competing with the new one.


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## maple1 (May 22, 2013)

My understanding was that this unit was a predecessor to the Geyser.

So it should be rugged.


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## GaryGary (May 22, 2013)

peakbagger said:


> I think they are US product. It happens all the time when a distributor goes under or a company changes models that they have left over inventory. Nothing wrong with it, they just dont want the old model competing with the new one.


 
As near as I can tell, this is what happened.
Gary


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## DBoon (May 24, 2013)

I think this is likely a closeout since it runs on 220V.  Newer Geysers are 115V.  I wouldn't have bought a 220V unit if I had to run a new 220V line to it, but with the Geyser I just plugged it into a 115V outlet.


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## GaryGary (May 25, 2013)

DBoon said:


> I think this is likely a closeout since it runs on 220V. Newer Geysers are 115V. I wouldn't have bought a 220V unit if I had to run a new 220V line to it, but with the Geyser I just plugged it into a 115V outlet.


 

I think that the idea of the 220 VAC is that its easy to power from a 220VAC electric water heater.

Gary


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## maple1 (Jul 7, 2013)

So?


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## GaryGary (Jul 8, 2013)

Hi,
Guess I should mention that the HPWH arrived and works.
It turns out to be an E-Tech, which appears to be very similar to the Nyle.
I think that they will supply either brand.

While solar heats nearly all the water at our house, I do have a part of the house that is served by a 17 year old propane heater with lots of standby loss and very little actual use.

So, I replaced the propane unit with a 50 gallon electric tank and hooked the new HPWH up to it.  Its working fine.  
A side benefit in the summer is that the HPWH dumps cold air into the basement utility room and I can run the furnace fan on low with only the basement return air vent open.  This pulls cool basement air (now cooler with the HPWH) out of the basement and circulates it to the main living area.  I've been running the HPWH only in the afternoon when the house is starting to get a bit warm.

I hooked up the HPWH with with SharkBites and a 240 VAC wall plug, so I can easily use the HPWH for other purposes -- not sure yet what those might be 

Gary


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## maple1 (Jul 8, 2013)

How are you controlling it? Are you using the electric tank thermostats?


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## kopeck (Jul 8, 2013)

I have one...

Here's the deal. These are NOS units, they've been replaced by the Geyser or other newer models (heatingstuff are offering two brands). They run on 220v which for some reason seemed to be any issue for people so they didn't catch on like the new Geyser has. The original idea was these were to be used with a electric hat water heater, which uses 220v so it should have been handy. Who knows...

I've been running mine for over a weak and it's provided 100% of my DHW. I'm not using it with an electric hot water heater like it was originally designed, I'm using it to dump heat directly into my 820 gallon heatbank that then feeds my indirect hot water heater.

I have to be honest, I've had to deal with a small wiring snag that's still being sorted out. That being said the guys at heatingstuff have been very accommodating and I'm sure we will get it ironed out within a day or two. I'm also not using the Nyletherm but an E-Tech like GaryGary received.

Once I get everything going properly I plan on writing a little review and posting it here.

K


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## GaryGary (Jul 8, 2013)

maple1 said:


> How are you controlling it? Are you using the electric tank thermostats?


 

Hi,
Mine has been modified so that it is controlled by capillary style thermostat where the bulb of the thermostat is placed against the outside of the electric water tank and under the tank insulation.  When the capillary thermostat gets up to about 128F, it shuts off the HPWH.
This seems to work OK, and it does make the HPWH more flexible for other uses.

Normally, these HPWHs tie into the thermostat wiring on the electric heaters in the tank.  I never did look into how this exactly works, but the wiring looks relatively easy to do.  There is a schematic that shows the original hookup, and I'm sure the HeatingStuff guys would be happy to provide an unmodified unit.

Gary


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## maple1 (Jul 9, 2013)

What model E-Tech are they shipping? I hadn't heard of them until now.


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## kopeck (Jul 9, 2013)

maple1 said:


> What model E-Tech are they shipping? I hadn't heard of them until now.


 
It's the older boxy type model not the newer one that sits on top of a EHW tank.





K


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## tom in maine (Jul 30, 2013)

There is a website for the heat pumps:
www.heatingstuffllc.com


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## pybyr (Aug 19, 2013)

This- the Nyle closeout- is really interesting.

I have a stand-alone oil fired HW heater that is at the age where the tank is probably on borrowed time.

Are there any efficiency ratings available for this Nyle HP unit that would let me compare (sort of) apples to apples on operating costs compared to the existing or a replacement stand alone oil-fired HW heater or a propane stand-alone HW heater? My incremental cost of electricity is 21 cents per kWh.

PS, I understand that the HP unit is not going to necessarily pay for itself as compared to my existing unit- please assume, as I do, that I need to replace my existing unit relatively soon, and that I can and will do install myself, which should put outlay roughly the same between various fuel replacement water heaters.


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## pybyr (Aug 19, 2013)

By the way, any track record on how these HPWH units' heat exchangers do with moderately hard water/ mineral buildup? My existing oil fired standalone HW heater makes a racket with steam pockets from mineral buildup in the tank. My water isn't hard enough to cause problems with anything else in the house, but the HW heater seems to have had buildup of minerals.


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## tom in maine (Aug 19, 2013)

The average COP is about 3. I think it makes sense to figure that the unit saves 50% over a straight electric unit.
If you are running a dehumidifier, then it is free because it still dehumidifies and produces DHW as a byproduct.

They use a circular concentric water/refrigerant hx. It might have to be flushed in areas of hard water.
I use mine to circulate tank water, so there is no issue with scale.


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## Redbarn (Aug 19, 2013)

pybyr said:


> This- the Nyle closeout- is really interesting.
> 
> I have a stand-alone oil fired HW heater that is at the age where the tank is probably on borrowed time.
> 
> ... a replacement stand alone oil-fired HW heater or a propane stand-alone HW heater? My incremental cost of electricity is 21 cents per kWh.



We have had our Geyser (a descendant of the Nyletherm) for about 2 years now. It replaced an oil 80 gallon DHWH using 1 gall oil per day with $15 per month of electricity (@14.5 cents per KWh). Paid for itself in the first year. We kept the oil DHWH for use in the depth of winter and for full houses of visitors but otherwise it is left turned off.


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## woodgeek (Aug 20, 2013)

pybyr said:


> By the way, any track record on how these HPWH units' heat exchangers do with moderately hard water/ mineral buildup? My existing oil fired standalone HW heater makes a racket with steam pockets from mineral buildup in the tank. My water isn't hard enough to cause problems with anything else in the house, but the HW heater seems to have had buildup of minerals.


 
AS Tom said, the big exchanger area, and low temp of the refrigerant means little to no mineral deposition on the HX.  Only time will tell of course.


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## Ehouse (Aug 26, 2013)

Lowe's in Herkimer (Mohawk valley) has Whirlpool 40 gal. elec. water heaters for $218.  They ordered a bunch because of the flooding there, and now have a surplus.  Might be the case in other areas as well.  Cheap in for a HPWH set up.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 26, 2013)

The ebay description explains that the unit may be defective. Seems like a lot to pay for old style defective unit when you can get a new GE for a few hundred more.


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## tom in maine (Aug 26, 2013)

They are new but are old stock. The design is basically the same as the new units being sold today. If you get one that does not work, I believe you have five business days to let the seller know and get a replacement.

My read is that the units are $300 and $65 for delivery anywhere in the US.
I think the new GE units are $999 and if you can use it, you get a tax rebate.
That's more than a couple hundred bucks difference.

I have one that is seven years old and still going strong. It is tied into my big wood boiler tank. It can go with me to another location and tie into another tank.

Nothing wrong with GE tank units, they are just different. 
Granted, I am partial to units made in Maine and know the guys who have these for sale.


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## maple1 (Mar 31, 2014)

For guys hooked to storage - how hot/warm would you say one of these units can maintain your storage temp? Assuming very well insulated and no calls for heat.

Think I'm leaning closer to pulling the trigger on one...


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## kopeck (Mar 31, 2014)

I replied in the other thread, mine does 128 no problem.

K


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## tom in maine (Mar 31, 2014)

These units deliver 6-7000 btus/hr. We have folks who have used them with some pretty large tanks.
The key is to have a well insulated tank if it is big (500+g).


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## MaineGuy (Apr 6, 2014)

kopeck said:


> It's the older boxy type model not the newer one that sits on top of a EHW tank.
> 
> View attachment 105996
> 
> ...


 
Just curious how this setup works out?  I'm picking up a Garn Jr this Friday.  I'm still deciding on a backup heat source.  I think I'll install the heating elements before I fill it, just because its a minimal cost and I'd rather just put them in and not use them than have to drain it to install them later.  My other thought is to use a heatpump water heater, maybe even a couple to heat the water in the garn.  How does your heat pump work keeping your storage warm?  What temps can you get it to?  Any information would be great.


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## tom in maine (Apr 6, 2014)

The Nyletherms deliver 6000 btus/hr. The optimal temperature is about 125F. Hotter than that and efficiency drops.
If you have a big tank and it is well insulated, it works very well.


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## kopeck (Apr 6, 2014)

I think it would work well with a Garn assuming the Garn has some provisions for piping the HP in (and  think it does).

K


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## MaineGuy (Apr 6, 2014)

tom in maine said:


> The Nyletherms deliver 6000 btus/hr. The optimal temperature is about 125F. Hotter than that and efficiency drops.
> If you have a big tank and it is well insulated, it works very well.


 
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the info, you seem to be giving me plenty of that lately.  I got the Nyletherm up and running paired with my boilermate.  Its working great so far.  I like it so much I'm thinking perhaps another unit or maybe 2 might be an adequate temporary backup for a Garn Jr.


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