# Now they're rationing LP keep those stoves going!



## WiscWoody

There's a shortage of LP up here in the Midwest. The price is high for this region and now they will not fill your tank but limit you to 200 gallons until the next month. I sure am glad I don't have to worry about so much any longer!


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## Seasoned Oak

Hard to believe with all this fracking going on,a few months ago they were running out of storage space.


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## _CY_

don't believe that BS that's there's a shortage .. maybe in distribution, but NO way in production. LP is a by product of natural gas processing. in case you haven't heard we are in the middle of the largest supply of natural gas in the world. with record low prices paid to well owners. but NOT to consumers. 

look again .. prices for natural gas has been hoovering from $2 to $2.50 per mcf .. yet the average price paid by homeowners is about $10 per mcf. the bargain is CNG at about $5 per mcf ...


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## coaly

UM, fracking is to release Natural Gas........ but Propane based gel is being used instead of millions of gallons of water. That's where the LP is going !


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## Seasoned Oak

coaly said:


> UM, fracking is to release Natural Gas........


 A component of LP


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## Kool_hand_Looke

But NG cant be compressed like LP...from what I gather. That's why it's plumbed from the gas company versus storage tanks at your house.


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## Seasoned Oak

Price around here is about the same as last year.


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## Kool_hand_Looke

For LP we paid $2.21 per unit of measurement...3 weeks ago. Over summer it was down to $1.83. Around us, NG is amazingly cheaper as well.


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## Seasoned Oak

Kool_hand_Looke said:


> For LP we paid $2.21 per unit of measurement...3 weeks ago. Over summer it was down to $1.83. Around us, NG is amazingly cheaper as well.


Whats the unit of Mmt 1 Gallon? or 1 LB


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## Kool_hand_Looke

Gallon. We only filled half. The LP "guy" was like "man it's a bad time to be buying propane" which if I remember correctly it's cheaper this year than last. For us at least. 250 gallons will last us more than all winter.


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## Kool_hand_Looke

Over the summer it was even cheaper @ $1.7X a gallon if you signed a usage contract with them for 6 months. BUT, we were required to X gallons or pay a penalty.


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## Seasoned Oak

$2.21 Sounds cheap but only has 91000 BTUs per gallon compared to oil with 137000. So not much diff.


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## Kool_hand_Looke

My parents burn oil...and I think that's hovering around $5 a gallon. The LP cost isn't so terrible for me. I've got a new(er) home. New windows. New chink. And of course, a mediocre wood stove. So I only run the furnace half @$$ when's it's SUPER cold. Mostly to keep basement warmer and pipes from freezing. The floor plan is all open. If it wasn't I'd probably never run the furnace and just stay dormant in half the house.


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## coaly

Seasoned Oak said:


> A component of LP



LP is only the by-product from Nat. and about half comes from the by-product of petroleum. My point is they are using LP to produce Nat. Sort of like using gas to produce gas eh?



Kool_hand_Looke said:


> But NG cant be compressed like LP...from what I gather. That's why it's plumbed from the gas company versus storage tanks at your house.


 That would be LNG or compressed Natural Gas used in vehicles. There is more nitrogen in Nat so it's better than LP for fuel cell use.


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## brenndatomu

Kool_hand_Looke said:


> But NG cant be compressed like LP...from what I gather. That's why it's plumbed from the gas company versus storage tanks at your house.


Nah, it can be compressed, it's called CNG. The equipment is expensive though.
Actually, NG is compressed to be transported through distribution lines. Speaking of, during the "polar vortex" a couple weeks back, here locally they had more demand than the distribution mains could keep up with, so the gas co was cutting off major users (factories, etc.)

I have a friend who lives on 5 wooded acres. He has (had) an all electric house. The $800 mo. bills in the winter were killing them, so they recently had gas put in. He had me come over to cut down some trees so they could run the gas lines....SCORE! I love gas  

EDIT: Dang! Coaly beat me to it, darn hunt n peck typing method!


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## Kool_hand_Looke

coaly said:


> LP is only the by-product from Nat. and about half comes from the by-product of petroleum. My point is they are using LP to produce Nat. Sort of like using gas to produce gas eh?
> 
> 
> That would be LNG or compressed Natural Gas used in vehicles. There is more nitrogen in Nat so it's better than LP for fuel cell use.


Not being difficult...but if LP is a byproduct of catalysis in both NG and petroleum, isn't it just that? A byproduct? Much like steam is a a byproduct of wood burning catalysts?


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## BrotherBart

The compressed NG is LNG. Liquified Natural Gas. Lots of it is being exported and billions are about to be invested in Alaska to export the LNG made from the gas from the North Slope. Huge quantities already ship from the Gulf Coast.

Location and distribution has always been the thing with LP. No big LP pipelines around and any particular source isn't dependable or constant.


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## bsruther

Wife said she saw a post on facebook today about an LP and fuel oil shortage crisis in Ohio. I told her to reply saying to let us know when there was a firewood crisis...and laughed.


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## Seasoned Oak

bsruther said:


> Wife said she saw a post on facebook today about an LP and fuel oil shortage crisis in Ohio. I told her to reply saying to let us know when there was a firewood crisis...and laughed.


Were fortunate the majority is not as ambitious as we are,or there would be a shortage.


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## WiscWoody

Where I lived in Eagan, MN Northern States Power had a nat gas compression station and did have storage tanks. Half of the huge tanks were underground and half above. They had frost on them year around even being super insulated. They had liquified natural gas in storage for the long winters there. I was told a pipeline came directly to them from OK. I lived just across the street from the tanks and was also told that if they were to have a explosion we would at least go very quickly!


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## pkell1572

BrotherBart said:


> The compressed NG is LNG. Liquified Natural Gas. Lots of it is being exported and billions are about to be invested in Alaska to export the LNG made from the gas from the North Slope. Huge quantities already ship from the Gulf Coast.
> 
> Location and distribution has always been the thing with LP. No big LP pipelines around and any particular source isn't dependable or constant.




 During this last cold spell the St. Louis natural gas system was pushed almost to its absolute maximum theoretical limit.  As the temperature dropped to 10 below zero they had a difficult time keeping up with demand and keeping the system pressurized.  The gas company injected a gargantuan amount of propane into the system to increase the amount btu per cubic foot in the system.  This propane was available due to prearranged contract and I can't help but think that would affect the local propane market at least short term.


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## WiscWoody

From Propane Wikipedia 

Propane is produced as a by-product of two other processes, natural gas processing andpetroleum refining. The processing of natural gas involves removal of butane, propane, and large amounts of ethane from the raw gas, in order to prevent condensation of these volatiles in natural gas pipelines. Additionally, oil refineries produce some propane as a by-product of cracking petroleum into gasoline or heating oil. The supply of propane cannot easily be adjusted to meet increased demand, because of the by-product nature of propane production. About 90% of U.S. propane is domestically produced.[_citation needed_] The United States imports about 10% of the propane consumed each year, with about 70% of that coming from Canada via pipeline and rail. The remaining 30% of imported propane comes to the United States from other sources via ocean transport.


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## BrotherBart

Propane, butane and pentane are the highest heat value by-products of refining crude oil. If it wasn't for the high sale value of propane it would all get used as fuel gas to run the refinery. Those big stills use a lot of energy. And the cheapest source is what is cooked out of the crude. And if they are coming up short the propane gets burned.


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## jdonna

I always assumed propane was solely from refining.   

I was reading the farm co-op news letter and they are in a panic,  buying reserves from local businesses to meet the residential demands.  

Supposedly a transport pipeline is getting closed down and supplies are low.   They said going forward that propane supply is going to be sketchy. 

Good thing I am still on the summer fill, might have to see if I can sell back the contracted propane I purchased.


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## firefighterjake

Crap . . . I have a propane delivery coming today for the hot water heater/oven. Oh well . . . at least I'm not using it for heating the house like my neighbor.


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## granpajohn

Kool_hand_Looke said:


> My parents burn oil...and I think that's hovering around $5 a gallon. .


I use this site to determine the actual delivered cost of HHO (currently about 3.80).Very handy....
https://www.huskyheatingoil.com/index.asp
They're the only dealer I've found here that honestly lists prices without some sort of deal.


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## WiscWoody

A neighbor said he wanted more than his 200 gallon ration so he called two other propane suppliers and they aren't taking any new customers until supplies come back in line with demand. And up here there's only a few suppliers within a reasonable distance.


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## tarzan

I was under the impression that the natural gas industry was booming now due to fracking and coal fired power plants making the switch to gas. Seems like propane would be more available than ever but who knows.


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## PoopieBritches

My propane supplier called last week to "make sure" we hadn't run out of fuel. I assured them we were fine,tanks are sitting @60%. "Is this a year round residence?"she asks."Yes it is",I tell her. "Well, what else are you heating with?" None of your buisiness is what I thought! I told them I am using pellets. "well your contract requires you to use at least 100 gallons per year,last delivery was one year ago."
"Well,I don't need, or want a delivery. Can't afford it. How's about I pay the rental fee for the tanks?" I ask. "You'll still be billed for 100 gallons." I'm told." What's the current price per gallon?" I ask. "you'll have to talk to our manager,I can't tell you" What? Well, I'm told it's $3.90 per gallon. "BS,I aint takin no delivery". They tell me I'll be billed for the 100 gal whether I take delivery or not! Last year,in January,price was $2.74. WTF!!
After talking with the manager,he has agreed to leave me alone till april. At which time they are gonna come and take one of the 120 gallon tanks.(Have 2 currently)
Boy,are these bastards greedy! Trying to strong arm me into takin 100 gallons,needed or not!
I mean,I offered to pay the rental fee for the tanks. I know they need to make money,but damn!


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## Flammam

My propane supplier tried that 3 years ago. Said I was under the minimum yearly usage(100 gallons) so he filled my tanks and charged my 5.00 gal. Called him and told him he could take his tank out that week. Got a new supplier that has no yearly minimum. We only use propane for cooking and clothes drying.


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## WiscWoody

tarzan said:


> I was under the impression that the natural gas industry was booming now due to fracking and coal fired power plants making the switch to gas. Seems like propane would be more available than ever but who knows.


17 states have now declared a energy emergency to allow propane trucks to run longer hours hoping to refill depleted stocks of the fuel.


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## WiscWoody

From NBC

More than 14 million families across the U.S. use propane to fuel their furnaces, according to the Propane Education & Research Council.

Kasich followed the lead of officials in 17 other U.S. states — mostly in the Midwest and North — who declared energy emergencies and loosened rules for propane transportation from other states, most of which are effective until the end of January.

In many of these states, residents are also being urged to cut down on propane usage since supplies are limited. 

"Propane customers in the Upper Peninsula should use their propane supplies wisely in the coming weeks by reducing usage and avoiding energy waste," Michigan Public Service Commission Chairman John Quackenbush told NBC affiliate WILX on Monday.

In addition to residential propane customers, over 1 million businesses across the U.S. rely on propane.

However, the energy shortage is not just a result of families and business owners trying to keep buildings comfortable during the persistent cold spells. The Midwest started the winter with a propane deficit since a greater than usual amount of propane was used in November to dry corn crops during a rain-soaked harvest, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA).

“Propane prices in the Midwest will likely need to rise to keep propane in the region,” according to the EIA.


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## WiscWoody

PoopieBritches said:


> My propane supplier called last week to "make sure" we hadn't run out of fuel. I assured them we were fine,tanks are sitting @60%. "Is this a year round residence?"she asks."Yes it is",I tell her. "Well, what else are you heating with?" None of your buisiness is what I thought! I told them I am using pellets. "well your contract requires you to use at least 100 gallons per year,last delivery was one year ago."
> "Well,I don't need, or want a delivery. Can't afford it. How's about I pay the rental fee for the tanks?" I ask. "You'll still be billed for 100 gallons." I'm told." What's the current price per gallon?" I ask. "you'll have to talk to our manager,I can't tell you" What? Well, I'm told it's $3.90 per gallon. "BS,I aint takin no delivery". They tell me I'll be billed for the 100 gal whether I take delivery or not! Last year,in January,price was $2.74. WTF!!
> After talking with the manager,he has agreed to leave me alone till april. At which time they are gonna come and take one of the 120 gallon tanks.(Have 2 currently)
> Boy,are these bastards greedy! Trying to strong arm me into takin 100 gallons,needed or not!
> I mean,I offered to pay the rental fee for the tanks. I know they need to make money,but damn!


Have you considered buying a used 250 gallon tank. It gives peace of mind when they can't hassle you about your tank any longer!


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## PoopieBritches

hermancm said:


> Have you considered buying a used 250 gallon tank. It gives peace of mind when they can't hassle you about your tank any longer!


 That is my goal, to be free of relying/dealing with any one supplier. I hear that tanks have to be certified/inspected every so many years?


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## WiscWoody

PoopieBritches said:


> That is my goal, to be free of relying/dealing with any one supplier. I hear that tanks have to be certified/inspected every so many years?


Not stationary tanks. I asked about that when I bought my tank and they said nope, Stationary tanks never need to be tested as far as hydro testing. But the manufacturers ID plate can't be painted over or missing.


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## woodgeek

Some gas (methane) wells are high in ethane (also goes into the NG pipeline) and propane, said to be 'wet' wells.  Some aren't.  While LP has been used for fracking at some sites (less water to get rid of), I think they recover most all of the LP back out, so they aren't losing it that way.  Too expensive otherwise.


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## MishMouse

http://www.weather.com/news/weather-winter/propane-shortage-cold-weather-20140121

With colder then average temps, many people in the mid-west are in for a very cold winter if this shortage continues.  Even if your lucky enough to buy some propane to fill the tank, due to supply and demand the prices are through the roof.  A lot of people just do not have that type of money. Myself if I was relying on propane like I was before I got my stove I would be looking for another job just to make ends meet.

I am very thankful for my wood stove.
If it wasn't at 500 I would give it a hug.


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## jeff_t

hermancm said:


> 17 states have now declared a energy emergency to allow propane trucks to run longer hours hoping to refill depleted stocks of the fuel.



Kinda scary that they are exempt from FMCSA hours of service regs, and driving a bomb.


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## Kool_hand_Looke

Just read that Ohio is now in the shortage map as well.


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## metalsped

My propane went up 60 cents a gallon in 3 months.... perfect timing to be running my stove this winter (where I didnt have one previously).


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## WiscWoody

This definitely is a good year to have an alternative to LP.


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## Kool_hand_Looke

hermancm said:


> Have you considered buying a used 250 gallon tank. It gives peace of mind when they can't hassle you about your tank any longer!


How much does a tank go for...generally?


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## bag of hammers

Suppliers scrambling to keep up with deliveries right now.  I called for a tank fill before Christmas - just got the fuel today.  Enough to get me through the winter, unless it stays -25 for 2 more months....  Price way up from last fill too.


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## pen

This is the first time in 29 years that my parents did not pre-pay for their propane.  The last 2 winters they took a hit and the price fell.  To get "insurance" and have a pre-pay price fall with the local price it was something ridiculous like 20 cents a gallon.  Not to mention other restrictions like they had to use up their pre-paid amount by X date in the spring, etc....

Long story short, my father made the executive decision to not do pre-pay this year.  Mom pays the bills but dad doesn't speak up often so she listened....... It was a riot last Sunday when we visited hearing mom rag on dad that the price had jumped 87 cents from the last bill 45 days ago,,,,,, and that new figure was about 70 cents higher than the pre-pay...... Ya win some, you lose some.

As with many things, being diversified is smart.  They are entirely propane, but I'm willing to bet they'll have a mini-split to help supplement in short order 

pen


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## bag of hammers

pen said:


> As with many things, being diversified is smart.  They are entirely propane, but I'm willing to bet they'll have a mini-split to help supplement in short order
> 
> pen



I might go that route here one day.  Right now we have propane, wood, and electric (oil filed heaters) in the mix.  I believe the mini splits can make a bit of heat even on some fairly cold days..?  A friend has been running one for a few years now. Problem free and it sips the electricity.


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## becasunshine

We have a heat pump with a propane furnace back up and propane for cooking and hot water at the house in the country.  We won't be full time residents there until my husband retires.  The first year we were there, our propane tank rental had been paid by the builder.  The second year, our propane tank rental balance due was higher than the amount we spent to refill the tank.  I offered to buy a larger tank outright and on the spot if the company would waive the tank rental balance, and they did.  (Reading some of your experiences above makes me see how lucky we are to have a cooperative propane supplier.) 

We've been discussing an alternative heating source and we will have one installed, hopefully next year.  The electricity is provided through a coop; rates aren't too bad but they are higher than buying electricity directly from the big utility like we do in town.  And of course, propane is propane.

I was pushing hard for a wood stove, because if the power goes out in the winter we'd still have heat (as opposed to a pellet stove) and we wouldn't have to run a propane generator to provide electricity to use the blower on a propane fired furnace.

The Hubs was leaning toward an LP gas stove for the convenience factor- and we aren't getting any younger, and we won't be any younger when he retires.  That causes me some pause too; I'm not blowing it off.  We are in good shape, however, and we've watched a lot of other people keep their wood stoves going in the winter just to keep heating costs down as well as having a fail-safe back up heat source.  This wood stove population includes elderly couples and elderly widows, who may compromise and have split wood delivered, but they still haul their own wood up to the house and tend their own stoves.

My husband isn't afraid of physical work or DIY but he was trying to be long-sighted and prudent.

He was impressed with the newer wood stoves at the Wood Stove Decathlon and had pretty much hopped on board with the wood stove idea- and then these stories about LP gas shortages and price spikes hit the news. 

It's all but a done deal now- it won't happen this year, but I'm pretty sure that I'm going to get a nice wood stove for the country cottage.    And The Hubs gets a chain saw- something we've talked about getting in the past, but there really wasn't a need for it before.

We're hoping that we can start accumulating the wood this year.


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## TMonter

_CY_ said:


> don't believe that BS that's there's a shortage .. maybe in distribution, but NO way in production. LP is a by product of natural gas processing. in case you haven't heard we are in the middle of the largest supply of natural gas in the world. with record low prices paid to well owners. but NOT to consumers.
> 
> look again .. prices for natural gas has been hoovering from $2 to $2.50 per mcf .. yet the average price paid by homeowners is about $10 per mcf. the bargain is CNG at about $5 per mcf ...



http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_nus_a.htm

Wellhead price does not include final cleanup or transportation and delivery which are substantial costs.


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## Seasoned Oak

Its nice having a whole winters supply of fuel by september. Iv done that even when i burned oil. Was much cheaper in summer anyhu.


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## tarzan

hermancm said:


> 17 states have now declared a energy emergency to allow propane trucks to run longer hours hoping to refill depleted stocks of the fuel.



Yell, I seen that, pretty crazy. Maybe it's because most of the US is getting colder than normal weather but a couple years ago I would have bet  propane would be plentiful and relatively cheap by now. 

Boy would I have been wrong!


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## Ehouse

jeff_t said:


> Kinda scary that they are exempt from FMCSA hours of service regs, and driving a bomb.




Yeah, heaven forbid they should put on some extra drivers.


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## WiscWoody

The cost increase is supply and demand driven and it seems the price of LP in the East is higher due to more LP users/population and the need to attract more shipments of LP. But it does smell a little fishy when supplies are short and then a refinery or this Wisconsin LP hub has shut down for "maintenance" when it's product is in short supply.

A few years ago when gasoline was sky high they found out a small refinery in California was still running after they claimed they were shutting down for maintenance. The state became suspicious since they had been monitoring the emissions  coming from the refinery and they never changed as they should have from a shutdown!!

DOH!!


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## WiscWoody

Kool_hand_Looke said:


> How much does a tank go for...generally?


Just a guess but based on what I paid for my 8 year old 500 gallon LP tank that I was leasing at the time- $700, I'd say around $400 for a 250 gallon tank. Call your or any LP supplier and ask them and compare new and used price for whatever size tank you need.


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## TmbrCrk

Propane prices here in the U.P. is $4.63/gal.!!  I am sitting at 24%, the propane lady said not to worry till 15%. I am hoping I can make it till the price comes back down a bit. Only using it for hot water heater and oven. Lennox Montecito is working hard to keep house warm.


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## bag of hammers

TmbrCrk said:


> Propane prices here in the U.P. is $4.63/gal.!!  I am sitting at 24%, the propane lady said not to worry till 15%. I am hoping I can make it till the price comes back down a bit. Only using it for hot water heater and oven. Lennox Montecito is working hard to keep house warm.



Yeah, I just paid $0.92 for a litre + tax put it well over a dollar/ litre = over $4 / gallon.  What a jump from last fill.

Generally I've called in the past when I get to @ 30% and that gives them a couple weeks to get out there, which they're been good about so far.  This time I hit 30% just before Christmas, called them up and anticipated an early new year's delivery.  I started to panic when the tank hit just over under 15% and still no delivery by mid Jan.  I met the driver out there this week and he said they're going crazy right now.  They always fill my tank to 80% capacity (250 gal of fuel in a 325 gallon tank) which normally gets me through the season.  This year is crazy cold.  I started with @ 60% when the cold snap hit early.  Guess I should be topping it up in Nov regardless of how much is in the tank.  Either that or get a bigger tank, which I asked them to scope out for me last week.


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## Paulywalnut

I only use LP for oven. Just about the same price as last year around here.


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## begreen

Not just a propane shortage. It is becoming a fuel shortage in cold areas, *firewood* included. This is when the grasshoppers get separated from the ants.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Cold_Maine_weather_strains_firewood_supply.html


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## begreen

Wood too as posted in the other thread
http://www.pressherald.com/news/Cold_Maine_weather_strains_firewood_supply.html


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## Badfish740

Just saw a story today saying that it's hitting us here in the Northeast as well.  We rely on oil for backup heat but propane cooks the food.  I'm really hoping the 100lb tank I had filled last March is going to last at least a full twelve months...  Better tell the wife no using the self clean feature until this blows over


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## firefighterjake

begreen said:


> Not just a propane shortage. It is becoming a fuel shortage in cold areas, *firewood* included. This is when the grasshoppers get separated from the ants.
> 
> http://www.pressherald.com/news/Cold_Maine_weather_strains_firewood_supply.html



And this is why I am several years ahead . . . no ordering of kiln dried wood in middle of winter or cutting down dead trees in an effort to stay warm for me.

On a related note . . . I had propane delivered Monday for my oven/hot water . . . still haven't seen the bill. Am not looking forward to seeing it with the current news on the cost.


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## Seasoned Oak

Ahhh.....Propane $4 a gallon if you can find it. Warm feeling of having a years supply of heat in your backyard.....................................priceless!


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## MishMouse

Yes, firewood is also becoming scarce.  Some people around here are selling pickup loads for $200.
With 2013 being well below average temps with above average rainfall a lot of people didn't really get a good supply of wood.
With all the rain that fell from August-October the wood that people was able to get got drenched.
Add to that double digits below zero since the beginning of December, then a shortage of propane, plus above average snowfall, people are in trouble this year. Fuel assistance budgets are being stretched to their limit, there is just not enough money to pay for fuel costs.

Listening to the news you hear of house fires almost on a daily basis, because people are running electric heaters or someone lighting stoves and fireplaces that hasn't been used/cleaned in years.


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## Seasoned Oak

MishMouse said:


> Yes, firewood is also becoming scarce.  Some people around here are selling pickup loads for $200.
> With 2013 being well below average temps with above average rainfall a lot of people didn't really get a good supply of wood.
> With all the rain that fell from August-October the wood that people was able to get got drenched.
> Add to that double digits below zero since the beginning of December, then a shortage of propane, plus above average snowfall, people are in trouble this year. Fuel assistance budgets are being stretched to their limit, there is just not enough money to pay for fuel costs.
> Listening to the news you hear of house fires almost on a daily basis, because people are running electric heaters or someone lighting stoves and fireplaces that hasn't been used/cleaned in years.


Fuel cost are variable MM. Like an acquaintance of mine always says "poor planning" or no planning. People should have an emergency fund but they dont. They should have savings but they dont. I Always try to have the whole winters worth of fuel stockpiled by fall. Did the same when i had oil. It was cheaper in the summer anyway. Same old same old.  Some of the guys here have 3-4 years supply of wood. An example of good planning.


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## _CY_

after Katrina .. there was NO shortage but big oil used that as an excuse to double prices overnight. big oil claimed disruption for fuel all over USA, when in fact there were only two refineries down due to storm. 

the fact that nearby refineries could overnight pickup the slack made no difference. everyone panicked by running to gas stations. which created a real shortage by filling everyone's tanks. 

the same thing is happening .. no real shortage .. only perception of shortage which triggers everyone to fill their tanks all at the same time. which really does create a shortage. 

when supplies does ease up, don't be surprised if prices never come back down .. ever ..


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## jdonna

Spot price in Minnesota is toggling 4.15 a gallon and going up.  I put a call in to try and sell my contract.  Tank is at 75% and sitting on 400 gallons contracted.  When I called in they said "what, you are lucky"  how could this be.  I said solid fuel.  Response, "how could this be".  Answer, simple, burn more wood.  

Feel sorry for the elderly on fixed income, not contracting or budgeting right now paying spot price.


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## firefighterjake

Egads . . . got my propane bill today. $4.05 per gallon.


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## Warm_in_NH

Just saw that the local power company (public service of NH) kept their main generator which runs on natural gas at 25% today and plan on it for the rest of this cold snap, and ran their 4 other giant generators which run on jet fuel (diesel) take up the difference. 
Supposedly the 4 others are "back up" for when the main one that runs on the ng starts to max out. Due to the high demand for ng they throttled back and fired up the diesel. First time they ever resorted to such actions.  Interesting. 

http://www.psnhnews.com/press-releases/psnh-power-plant-fleet-called-during-cold-snap


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## granpajohn

Many commercial ng users have "interuptable" contracts. In the case of one I worked closest with, they agree to switch over to fuel oil within an hour of being notified by Washington Gas Co. All figured in to the gas utility's calculations long before it happens.
Many run coal, ng, No.2 fuel, or No. 6 fuel. The 6 seems to be going out of style. 

In the case I mentioned, it's not just steam. They also run gas powered turbines for chilling in the summer. Some steam is also needed in summer for hot water,etc.
that's long-story-short.


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## stoveguy2esw

PoopieBritches said:


> My propane supplier called last week to "make sure" we hadn't run out of fuel. I assured them we were fine,tanks are sitting @60%. "Is this a year round residence?"she asks."Yes it is",I tell her. "Well, what else are you heating with?" None of your buisiness is what I thought! I told them I am using pellets. "well your contract requires you to use at least 100 gallons per year,last delivery was one year ago."
> "Well,I don't need, or want a delivery. Can't afford it. How's about I pay the rental fee for the tanks?" I ask. "You'll still be billed for 100 gallons." I'm told." What's the current price per gallon?" I ask. "you'll have to talk to our manager,I can't tell you" What? Well, I'm told it's $3.90 per gallon. "BS,I aint takin no delivery". They tell me I'll be billed for the 100 gal whether I take delivery or not! Last year,in January,price was $2.74. WTF!!
> After talking with the manager,he has agreed to leave me alone till april. At which time they are gonna come and take one of the 120 gallon tanks.(Have 2 currently)
> Boy,are these bastards greedy! Trying to strong arm me into takin 100 gallons,needed or not!
> I mean,I offered to pay the rental fee for the tanks. I know they need to make money,but damn!


 

buy tanks or drop propane all together, look back over your contract and verify if that statement is in the contract, if it is , find another source if possible and work out a contract with no minimums.

if there is no contractual agreement on minimum delivery annually then sue them if the bill you I bet you could find a lawyer who would love to litigate this case unless you have a contract which does stipulate a minimum.

they only have a strong arm when its the only arm in the neighborhood, do some looking see if they have a competitor, enlist their service explain the case and let them know you have friends who could become customers. its that simple , as long as there is competition unless they have formed a trust where they collude to **** you together someone will take less rather than none , and he/she is youre leverage.


----------



## yooperdave

Locally, the price of LP took a HUGE leap.
It was going for 2.70 a gallon on Tuesday-Thursday, its 4.35 a gallon  Just what happened??


----------



## bbfarm

Its all over the news now how the price doubled and no propain to be found. 

It doesn't matter if you have a contract or not. 

I checked with 3 of my friends that have propane furnaces.

#1 said she just got some delivered, but only 200 gallons.  they wouldn't fill her up.  She has a wood stove so will be alright.

#2 said she hadn't heard about it.  She has an indoor add on wood furnace so will be ok, but is running low on wood.

#3 called her propane dealer who she has a prepaid contract with for auto fill at $1.59 a gallon.  They told her too bad.  the contract is null and void in situations like this.  They might be able to bring her some propane if they get some at an inflated price of over $3.oo a gallon.  She has no alternative heat source.


----------



## IHATEPROPANE

bbfarm said:


> Its all over the news now how the price doubled and no propain to be found.
> 
> It doesn't matter if you have a contract or not.
> 
> I checked with 3 of my friends that have propane furnaces.
> 
> #1 said she just got some delivered, but only 200 gallons.  they wouldn't fill her up.  She has a wood stove so will be alright.
> 
> #2 said she hadn't heard about it.  She has an indoor add on wood furnace so will be ok, but is running low on wood.
> 
> #3 called her propane dealer who she has a prepaid contract with for auto fill at $1.59 a gallon.  They told her too bad.  the contract is null and void in situations like this.  They might be able to bring her some propane if they get some at an inflated price of over $3.oo a gallon.  She has no alternative heat source.



This is why IHATEPROPANE.  You have a contract and when it hurts the dealer they say too bad.   Jack the price up and tear the contract......thank god there are alternatives.


----------



## Wachusett

I just got an automatic delivery last weed that I did not need (tank was at 50%). They wanted $4 a gallon. I called and said what the...........!
After requesting they not come again until called, she opened my account and realized they overcharged me.
They own the tank (they claim) and this puts me in a contract (hostage position). The contract price is $2.79 and she will
send a revised bill. $2.79 is a lot better than $4 but still painful.


----------



## WiscWoody

IHATEPROPANE said:


> This is why IHATEPROPANE.  You have a contract and when it hurts the dealer they say too bad.   Jack the price up and tear the contract......thank god there are alternatives.


I do recall a provision in a fuel contract when I was a newb to the rural heating scene that gave them a out if the cost spiked high and it was out of their control. I burn wood now and there's no such Clause in the wood I scavenge during the summer!


----------



## bbfarm

I just think its lousy.  Why have contracts at all then?  My friend had to prepay X amount to lock in that price in advance. 

They just told her to look on the back of her contract.


----------



## bbfarm

oh, and the govenor says they will set up warming shelters for people without heat due to propane.  Meanwhile all their pipes freeze in their house.......


----------



## moey

bbfarm said:


> I just think its lousy.  Why have contracts at all then?  My friend had to prepay X amount to lock in that price in advance.
> 
> They just told her to look on the back of her contract.



It probably gets you 24 hour service. Not standing up for a company that has such a contract but its entirely possible they don't have the money to weather the storm so the only choice is to raise the price for contract customers. But yes its makes you wonder why you prepay.


----------



## yooperdave

Just saw on the news this morning that in Minnesota, LP is going for over 5.00 a gallon!

I know the law of supply and demand but, shees!  It doesn't cost any more to produce today then it did 3 days ago!


----------



## WiscWoody

bbfarm said:


> oh, and the govenor says they will set up warming shelters for people without heat due to propane.  Meanwhile all their pipes freeze in their house.......


I'm surprised he'd spend the money for a shelter! Asked if he would be open to use some of the states surplus to help the needy with the high fuel cost he said that it wouldn't help the situation and increased supply from David Koch is what is needed.... Well not in those words exactly but we all know where his priorities are.


----------



## Warm_in_NH

Just called Irving here to check. Current at $4.099/gallon. 
Was $2.92/gal. In Sept when I had the tanks topped off. 
First year with the wood stove, normally I'd be calling for my mid winter delivery right about now but tanks are still at 60%! Ill easily make it through the season without a deluvery. Whew!
Otherwise I'd be looking at $600+  Just to make it to spring.


----------



## B-Mod

Put the numbers in boys...

http://pelletheat.org/pellets/compare-fuel-costs/

I got some last week, $1.79, called last night to check prices, $4.99, in one week. WTF??? Good thing I use very little per year. If you have propane, you are now much better off plugging in electric heaters. Word on the street is $10 propane may be comming. And most will only fill 100 to 300 gallons max. This is all from Central WI. area.


----------



## kofkorn

Even at $4 / gal, it's probably less money to heat with electric.  Time to go out and get some space heaters.  Heck, pull out the hair dryers...


----------



## B-Mod

LP today from Lakes Gas out of Frederic WI.  Drum rollllllllll      
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  $6.90 per gallon.


----------



## kofkorn

Go out and buy some 180 proof alcohol and throw that in your burners.  It'll probably be cheaper.


----------



## ZBrooks

Sounds like a good time to run an ad on pellet stoves that are sitting around, waiting to be installed.


----------



## WiscWoody

B-Mod said:


> LP today from Lakes Gas out of Frederic WI.  Drum rollllllllll
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $6.90 per gallon.


Hard to believe but I can... I feel bad for the elderly that are on a fixed income! 200 gallons for $1400! There might some bad freeze ups and casualties from this.


----------



## jeromehdmc

Wow, I can't believe the price propane is going for. 
I'm glad I got mine on contract for 1.44


----------



## bbfarm

holy moly! 

Who knew it would be cheaper to heat with fuel oil again over propane?


----------



## yooperdave

Holy Crap!!  Just got off the phone from a supplier and it went up again!
If you own your tank, you get LP for 5.50 to 6.00 a gallon.  But that's this afternoons price.  Tomorrow will be even higher I bet.
Poor delivery guys must really be taking a bashing!


----------



## yooperdave

jeromehdmc said:


> Wow, I can't believe the price propane is going for.
> I'm glad I got mine on contract for 1.44




Good luck getting that price honored!  Probably only 100 gals. at a time-why sell it for 1.44 (contract price) when you can make 4 times that?


----------



## Bioburner

Just dropped by our propain dealer to get some gas for the snowblower and was told propain was shy of $4. Seven day forecast may not get above zero in our area. I just got in 90 bushels of corn into the shed and the snow started. Corn was $3.95/bu. This can make the payback of the stove at warp speed Obama speech is going to be interesting on the 28th.


----------



## Jags

Just called.  Still at $1.49 through my supplier - NO NEW CUSTOMERS.


----------



## eclecticcottage

Glad our 100lb tanks ran out when they did, we filled them about a month ago (for hot water/cooking).  The one we've got for the vent free is out, and we're not thinking of refilling it at these prices.  I hate not having something in place that can kick on if we couldn't get home for some reason, but...uh-uh, not paying those prices.  The guy that came to take away our big LP tank told us he used to fill it 2x a year sometimes...and that was a 700ish gallon job.  That thought makes me cringe...and want to hug my stove...except...it's too hot for that, lol.


----------



## Bioburner

Jags said:


> Just called.  Still at $1.49 through my supplier - NO NEW CUSTOMERS.


They didn't tell you that it was per liter?


----------



## Jags

Bioburner said:


> They didn't tell you that it was per liter?



Naaa - they are a mom and pop shop that has been around for a long time.  Good peeps to deal with and have their own tank farm.  He said this will blow over by Mar and that their tank farm has enough in store for their customer base.  Next years contract price has already been put in place and it is similar to the same price.


----------



## WiscWoody

B-Mod said:


> LP today from Lakes Gas out of Frederic WI.  Drum rollllllllll
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $6.90 per gallon.


I looked up the Lakes Gas web page. They had a CNN video on it with a propain guy on it breaking down in tears! He said we will get you the fuel but it might pretty much put you out on the street. Not good.


----------



## Jags

Got off the phone with my supplier less than 5 minutes ago.  Contract price is still good at $1.49 through Mar.  They have a tank farm and have already taken delivery to cover till then.  He just contracted for next year and prices are similar.
No new customers will be taken right now.  This company is one of the "good guys".  It makes me question if some suppliers are on a predatory prowl.


----------



## BrotherBart




----------



## WiscWoody

stoveguy2esw said:


> buy tanks or drop propane all together, look back over your contract and verify if that statement is in the contract, if it is , find another source if possible and work out a contract with no minimums.
> 
> if there is no contractual agreement on minimum delivery annually then sue them if the bill you I bet you could find a lawyer who would love to litigate this case unless you have a contract which does stipulate a minimum.
> 
> they only have a strong arm when its the only arm in the neighborhood, do some looking see if they have a competitor, enlist their service explain the case and let them know you have friends who could become customers. its that simple , as long as there is competition unless they have formed a trust where they collude to **** you together someone will take less rather than none , and he/she is youre leverage.


Well yes a lawyer would love to challenge the contract at his going rate of maybe $300 an hour. When you call a lawyer they ask about the case and then they say, well... Good luck with that one! But you can take them to small claims and have it heard out if you really think that you've been wronged.


----------



## Former Farmer

They had on the local news tonight, people looking at pellet and wood stoves because of the propane shortages.  It won't help the buyers in the short term, they were saying a 2 week wait if the buyer wanted the companies to install it.  

Do you think that there will be a "pellet shortage" so they can increase the prices for them?


----------



## Rob From Wisconsin

A couple of weeks ago when I could hear the "distant drums" of the Propane storm a'brewin' I did a quick inspection on the level of our tank:

- Started the Heating Season around 70% full
- Currently at a bit over 60%

Nice.......
Thank-you woodstove.....keep-up the good work!


----------



## Bioburner

If as Jags supplier says, will blow over by March ,but the supply may not catch up till April? If the weather continues and copies last spring I can see some pellet shortages. Box stores quit handling pellets early March last year and still had some ugly cold and snow. I had offered to help a couple with install of stove last fall because of the propain use. Now will be a pain as the stove is in a shed with five foot of snow up the door.


----------



## Bridgeman

Does anyone think this is not a manufactured shortage? Here in New England it heating oil that the suppliers slow down supply to jack up the price. Irving Oil, a large vertical monopoly has almost complete control of heating oil prices in  New England. Pellets require less investment to manufacture so the supply base is wide and diversified. It is less likely in the short term to be monopolized to the point were supplies can be controlled. The warning sign will be when a consolidation of the industry by a few wealthy individuals or corporations force out smaller manufacturers of pellets. They can do this by influencing government regulators or simply buying up the competition. I think are long way from that point because the manufacturing of pellets is simple process and the raw materials are cheap and widely available. I think the other thing keeping pellets prices low is alternative of using conventional wood stoves. There is a price point were the pellet stove convenience no longer offsets the conventional wood stove btu cost.


----------



## raybonz

kofkorn said:


> Even at $4 / gal, it's probably less money to heat with electric.  Time to go out and get some space heaters.  Heck, pull out the hair dryers...


With these cold temps dinky little space heaters will not keep up.. You need some serious BTU's to do the job and portable electric heaters can perhaps assist beyond this..

Ray


----------



## arbutus

raybonz said:


> With these cold temps dinky little space heaters will not keep up.. You need some serious BTU's to do the job and portable electric heaters can perhaps assist beyond this..
> 
> Ray


 Watts is watts.  Plug in enough of them and blow breakers, burn the house down, or be warm.


----------



## Bioburner

Bridgeman said:


> Does anyone think this is not a manufactured shortage? Here in New England it heating oil that the suppliers slow down supply to jack up the price. Irving Oil, a large vertical monopoly has almost complete control of heating oil prices in  New England. Pellets require less investment to manufacture so the supply base is wide and diversified. It is less likely in the short term to be monopolized to the point were supplies can be controlled. The warning sign will be when a consolidation of the industry by a few wealthy individuals or corporations force out smaller manufacturers of pellets. They can do this by influencing government regulators or simply buying up the competition. I think are long way from that point because the manufacturing of pellets is simple process and the raw materials are cheap and widely available. I think the other thing keeping pellets prices low is alternative of using conventional wood stoves. There is a price point were the pellet stove convenience no longer offsets the conventional wood stove btu cost.


Unfortunately skyrocketing electric rates discussed on another thread can shut down production. OP calculated cost to produce a ton of pellets went to $175 just for electricity.


----------



## raybonz

arbutus said:


> Watts is watts.  Plug in enough of them and blow breakers, burn the house down, or be warm.


On highest setting you'll only realize ~5,000 btu.. In sub-zero this will not do much unless your walls are 3' thick.. Electricity in this area is not cheap.. You can only have one electric heater on high per circuit as they draw 12+ amps.. Have fun!

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail...gclid=CMvsyN24mbwCFacDOgodHXIAsQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

Ray


----------



## Former Farmer

If memory serves me right, 1kw of electricity is equal to 3,412 btu.  So if you have a 1500w heater, it will produce 4094 btu.  

It will take 293kw to produce 1 million btu.  If your electric costs you .15 per kw, that is equal to a 90% propane furnace using LP at 3.62 per gallon.


----------



## raybonz

Former Farmer said:


> If memory serves me right, 1kw of electricity is equal to 3,412 btu.  So if you have a 1500w heater, it will produce 4094 btu.
> 
> It will take 293kw to produce 1 million btu.  If your electric costs you .15 per kw, that is equal to a 90% propane furnace using LP at 3.62 per gallon.


The problem is the BTU's required would tax an electrical system .. A 1500 watt heater at 120 VAC pretty much needs it's own circuit.. We have Nstar and National Grid here and they are expensive compared to municipal power.. If electricity were inexpensive I'd use electric baseboard due to it's simplicity and each room could have it's own T-stat. Another plus is the quietness..


----------



## Former Farmer

raybonz said:


> A 1500 watt heater at 120 VAC pretty much needs it's own circuit.



Agreed.  A 15A circuit should never have a 1500w heater plugged into it.  A person is just asking for problems if they do.  A continuous 12A load on a 15A breaker is very hard on them.  Much better to have them on a 20A breaker.


----------



## Bioburner

Former Farmer said:


> Agreed.  A 15A circuit should never have a 1500w heater plugged into it.  A person is just asking for problems if they do.  A continuous 12A load on a 15A breaker is very hard on them.  Much better to have them on a 20A breaker.


Lets hope the wire gauge is supportive as well. My newer home has 20amp circuits and the self installed wiring in the basement for non light circuits is 12 gauge.


----------



## TmbrCrk

Local news reported yesterday it is up to $5.39/gallon. Still sitting at 23-24%, hope the hot h2o heater and oven don't  use too much.  I'm going to let it ride and hope we make it till the prices come down.  Heating only with the Montecito and it's holding its own.


----------



## raybonz

Former Farmer said:


> Agreed.  A 15A circuit should never have a 1500w heater plugged into it.  A person is just asking for problems if they do.  A continuous 12A load on a 15A breaker is very hard on them.  Much better to have them on a 20A breaker.


The general rule is 80% continuous load so 15 amp circuit can be loaded to 12 amps and 20 amp circuit at 16 amps.. You can get away with 15 amp circuit for one 1500 W heater provided there is little to no load on it.. Breakers can nuisance trip if you run continuously over 80% load..

Ray


----------



## WiscWoody

kofkorn said:


> Even at $4 / gal, it's probably less money to heat with electric.  Time to go out and get some space heaters.  Heck, pull out the hair dryers...


Well, here's the math,

        1 KWh = 3400 BTUh @ $.15 x 100,000 BTU = $4.41 per hour of electric heat.
         1 gallon of propane = 91,500 BTUh x .95 AFUE @ $4/gal = 86,925 BTUh
So if my calculation is correct electric would be cheaper but you'd need a good size heater in this weather or you can supplement your primary with unit heaters. I have heard on Hearth.com that LP here in WI has gone up to $6/gallon though. Hopefully that's not for real!


----------



## WiscWoody

TmbrCrk said:


> Local news reported yesterday it is up to $5.39/gallon. Still sitting at 23-24%, hope the hot h2o heater and oven don't  use too much.  I'm going to let it ride and hope we make it till the prices come down.  Heating only with the Montecito and it's holding its own.


You will be fine unless maybe you have a large family of teens rotating through the shower all morning long!


----------



## Bioburner

All those ice fishermen are in for a surprise when they go to refill those portable tanks


----------



## begreen

Here is an interesting statement from the EIA:

Because global prices for propane are significantly higher than U.S. prices, propane supplies will continue to move to Mont Belvieu for export. Midwest propane prices will rise to keep marginal supplies in the region when they are needed.

http://www.eia.gov/oog/info/twip/twiparch/2014/140115/twipprint.html

In other words, suck it up Midwest, we can get more for propane overseas. Sound familiar? It should. The primary intent of the proposed Keystone pipeline is to get tar sands oil to Tx for refining and shipping, overseas.


----------



## heaterman

Just took 3 phone calls from different areas in Michigan and one in Ohio with customer telling me their propane companies are unable to get, much less deliver any fuel. Limits of 200 gallon per delivery seem to be the norm.
One of the customers is a commercial operation that needs to keep his inventory (tropical fish) at 75*. He said he has 3 days supply left and can't get more until February 4th. Probably $500,000 worth of stock that could die on him.

What's the news on propane in your area?

This is a getting scary!


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER

heaterman,
sounds like a portable Garn rental fleet would .be in order! quick disconnects


----------



## jdonna

Interesting tid bit over here.   I called the Co Op where my propane contract is held.   I said that I would be willing to sell back the 400 gallons that I will not take by April. 

Response was that they historically haven't done that and were not sure if they would do such a thing.  Said that they would get back to me if it got to that point.  

I said, well thats fine, maybe I will get a 1000 gallon tank out here then and start hedging or take the full 400 in April. 

Kinda made me wonder a little bit if the supplies are that tight, yet I hear of 100 gallon fill rations going on.


----------



## MarkW

Not good news for the propane heating masses.

I've not yet heard a thing in our area.


----------



## eauzonedan

Duluth MN TV says it's over five bucks and some rationing happening. The way the station worded their spot it could be interpreted that pre-buy agreements could be in jeopardy   I do like the portable Garn idea but might be a good idea to empty it when transporting - to keep the trailer wheels round.....


----------



## MarkW

This could get ugly. The company I work for uses construction heaters that consume 15 gallons per hour. A shortage would not be good.


----------



## jdonna

hermancm said:


> You will be fine unless maybe you have a large family of teens rotating through the shower all morning long!



Throw back to the days when a copper boiler was placed on top of the cook stove or wood stove.  Dirtiest person last in the tub!


----------



## Seasoned Oak

The oil industry does this all the time.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

heaterman said:


> J
> One of the customers is a commercial operation that needs to keep his inventory (tropical fish) at 75*. He said he has 3 days supply left and can't get more until February 4th. Probably $500,000 worth of stock that could die on him.
> /quote]



So whats his backup/alternate heat? Dont have one? IF homeowners need a backup plan then certainly a business with a lot more to lose needs one as well. Poor planning,or no planning.


----------



## heaterman

MarkW said:


> This could get ugly. The company I work for uses construction heaters that consume 15 gallons per hour. A shortage would not be good.



I would dare bet that you are going to be SOL in short order from what the contact near Columbus told me.
Going to be interesting to see how this turns out.

Word from an industry contact is that all the big LP producers in the southern USA oil ports are shipping to Europe because they get $3-4/ gallon for export vs $1.50 here in the states. Regional propane distributors buy XX number of gallon for the heating season and they just didn't buy enough this year. 
I get a feeling that the US is finally going to come up to par with the rest of the world's energy prices.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

I get a feeling propane user will be CSS more wood this coming summer.


----------



## WiscWoody

Bioburner said:


> All those ice fishermen are in for a surprise when they go to refill those portable tanks


I fill my own one pound tanks and I  got a bunch of empties from the guy at the dump. I have two twenty pound tanks to fill from last year on reserve for filling them. But I still need a pop up shelter for the fishing this year! Maybe next year I'll pull the trig on that one.


----------



## WiscWoody

15 amps at 120 has a 1800 watt capacity and I've run a heater on high no problems yet. But I Googled it and they say that 1500 should be the limit  on a 15 circuit. And don't use a extension cord.


----------



## curtis

Im really glad i went with a garn this year. I almost put in a high efficiency propane furnace to replace my fuel oil furnace. My friend just paid $3.57 a gallon for propane the other day. At that price the money i put into the boiler system will pay off fast.


----------



## ryooper

Lp just went up to 4.60 gal. yesterday up here we bought a little to top tank off 2 wks. ago for 2.29 glad we did can only get 100 gals.


----------



## raybonz

hermancm said:


> 15 amps at 120 has a 1800 watt capacity and I've run a heater on high no problems yet. But I Googled it and they say that 1500 should be the limit  on a 15 circuit. And don't use a extension cord.


http://ecmweb.com/basics/sizing-circuit-breaker

All you ever wanted to know about circuit breaker sizing 

Ray


----------



## henfruit

I ordered some yesterday for next Friday del There was nothing mentioned about a shortage. I cant wait to see the price.


----------



## harttj

Seasoned Oak said:


> So whats his backup/alternate heat? Dont have one? IF homeowners need a backup plan then certainly a business with a lot more to lose needs one as well. Poor planning,or no planning.



No planning?  It maybe poor planning not having larger tanks, but I don't think people can plan for no fuel.  So if a major NG pipeline goes down and people don't have gas is that no planning because they all don't have a stove?  How about the grid going down for a couple weeks?


----------



## eclecticcottage

Called the place we fill out 100lb tanks last night-$50 for a fill (if we bring the tank to them).


----------



## stoveguy2esw

begreen said:


> Here is an interesting statement from the EIA:
> 
> Because global prices for propane are significantly higher than U.S. prices, propane supplies will continue to move to Mont Belvieu for export. Midwest propane prices will rise to keep marginal supplies in the region when they are needed.
> 
> http://www.eia.gov/oog/info/twip/twiparch/2014/140115/twipprint.html
> 
> In other words, suck it up Midwest, we can get more for propane overseas. Sound familiar? It should. The primary intent of the proposed Keystone pipeline is to get tar sands oil to Tx for refining and shipping, overseas.


 

seems the theme, the government could fix this quite easily, just slap an export tax on the fuel being shipped abroad equivalent to the differential price for instance. apparently US fuel is cheaper than foreign sources so its bought from here. if this is tempered a bit more fuel would stay at home.

granted its probably more complex that that , but it strikes me that at least the fuel being procured from government land sources could be taxed thus by the landowners (us) also, why is our fuel so much cheaper? why are we not charging a similar price? seems kinda short sighted to me.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

harttj said:


> No planning?  It maybe poor planning not having larger tanks, but I don't think people can plan for no fuel.  So if a major NG pipeline goes down and people don't have gas is that no planning because they all don't have a stove?  How about the grid going down for a couple weeks?


Everyone should have some kind of backup plan. Whether its electric,kerosene,wood whatever. Thats a big reason i have a wood stove,if the electric goes out.I still wont freeze. If you need 5-8 fuel deliveries a winter,its a good bet your tank is too small. Is it practical for a utility to have enough storage capacity for all its customers for the whole winter or does some of that responsibility also lie with the homeowner or business to have enough storage to NOT need 5-8 deliveries a winter.IMO Chit happens and when it does either you will have planned ahead or you will be cold.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

stoveguy2esw said:


> seems the theme, the government could fix this quite easily, just slap an export tax on the fuel being shipped abroad equivalent to the differential price for instance. apparently US fuel is cheaper than foreign sources so its bought from here. if this is tempered a bit more fuel would stay at home.


Probably for the same reason we charge 3% import duties to countries(like china) that charge us 25% on our goods exported to their country. WHile at the same time we to cry about the trade imbalance killing jobs here. The insanity continues.


----------



## stoveguy2esw

Seasoned Oak said:


> Probably for the same reason we charge 3% import duties to countries(like china) that charge us 25% on our goods exported to their country. WHile at the same time we to cry about the trade imbalance killing jobs here. The insanity continues.


 

so much for "free trade" right? we get hosed with every one of these supposedly free trade agreements.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

Seasoned Oak said:


> Probably for the same reason we charge 3% import duties to countries(like china) that charge us 25% on our goods exported to their country. WHile at the same time we to cry about the trade imbalance killing jobs here. The insanity continues.


the common consumer does care about the job or where it comes from, just what the pot, pan, t-shirt, pant, shorts, underwear, shoe, car parts, garlic, hat, wine, beef, lamb, soft wear, collection service, appliances, sheets, blankets, furniture, lumber, cabinettes, carpet, ect, ect, ect, just what it  costs!


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Doug MacIVER said:


> the common consumer does care about the job or where it comes from, just what the pot, pan, t-shirt, pant, shorts, underwear, shoe, car parts, garlic, hat, wine, beef, lamb, soft wear, collection service, appliances, sheets, blankets, furniture, lumber, cabinettes, carpet, ect, ect, ect, just what it  costs!


THey should care,it may be their job thats eliminated next.


----------



## Doug MacIVER

Seasoned Oak said:


> THey should care,it may be their job thats eliminated next.


believe me I know. how many people were employeed by Kinney in your state just one lifetime ago. a minor industry I might add. one of my better customers from 1949- 1990. sorry this is off the topic but related to the export idea, it comes back as parts we could still make if footing was equal.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

I have made good money in the past pre buying fuel in the summer for use in the winter. I used to make 100% or more on heating oil bought in the summer. I had a full winters supply by fall. Remember plenty of times paying less than $1 a gallon in summer and by mid winter the price was almost $2 or more.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Seems like our trade negotiators have been working for the competition for the last 30-40 years now.


----------



## Sawyer

I placed two orders yesterday for houses I watch at $6.099/gallon. Dealers are not taking any new customers. They are sending Semi tankers to Kansas City. One is planning on trips to Utah. Most of the cost is freight. Sure do like my Garn!


----------



## Doug MacIVER

Seasoned Oak said:


> Seems like our trade negotiators have been working for the competition for the last 30-40 years now.


I forgot golfballs, golfclubs, baseball gloves, tennis raquets,, hey the nfl still gets their footballs here,


----------



## maple1

$6.00 a gallon !?!?


----------



## Sawyer

Yup, Wednesday it was $4.899. It will be interesting to see what next week brings. Wausau TV showed some of the businesses on the snowmobile trails are buying electric heater and electric grills for fear of not getting propane.


----------



## Vizsla

Wow, no compassion for those who might not be able to afford a back up plan, especially when none of this was forecast. Either way I thought there was a lot more sensitivity to those in need here on this site. I sure do see many that are very outgoing here, to help others in need. 

This here can easily ruin a families whole financial year, and makes me wonder what else contributed to this LP problem. This is hitting the little guy where they have no way of helping themselves, if there isn't any supply.


----------



## skfire

Vizsla said:


> Wow, no compassion for those who might not be able to afford a back up plan, especially when none of this was forecast. Either way I thought there was a lot more sensitivity to those in need here on this site. I sure do see many that are very outgoing here, to help others in need.
> 
> This here can easily ruin a families whole financial year, and makes me wonder what else contributed to this LP problem. This is hitting the little guy where they have no way of helping themselves, if there isn't any supply.




This is a very deep and touchy subject, especially since what is in the root of it, is how energy is derived, processed and exploited in our country and under what disguised premises. 
Qui bono and on what moral basis, ethos and profit are not a mix...
But if we go there this will be locked down.

Scott


----------



## Phoenix Hatchling

All this propane talk is scaring me for summer time! That's when the pool needs to be brought out of hibernation, and with the temps were having it will be august before that ground is warm enough to take the heater. May need to consider investing in a heat pump.


----------



## moey

hermancm said:


> 15 amps at 120 has a 1800 watt capacity and I've run a heater on high no problems yet. But I Googled it and they say that 1500 should be the limit  on a 15 circuit. And don't use a extension cord.



It takes one lose connection at a max draw to cause a problem. Bad connections don't cause a breaker to trip unless they are shorting out. Just because the breaker is not tripping does not mean all is ok.


----------



## B-Mod

I got some propane last week, $1.79, called yesterday to check the price, $6.30. Have heard of just under $7.00 in parts of WI. Talk is the price may reach $10 gallon. State of Emergency declared in WI. Most are only delivering 100 gallons, some will do 300 gallons. I burn corn, I am lucky.


----------



## begreen

The interpretation is incorrect. These agreements mean that corporations are free to trade where they want within the rules of the agreement.


stoveguy2esw said:


> so much for "free trade" right? we get hosed with every one of these supposedly free trade agreements.


That just mean that corporations are free to trade as they like within the sphere of the agreement.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Vizsla said:


> Wow, no compassion for those who might not be able to afford a back up plan, especially when none of this was forecast.


What does compassion have to do with a backup plan. A reasonable plan may be to purchase a few $15 electric heaters, a used wood stove,ect. I just  think it is ultimately each homeowners responsibility not someone else,s to ensure they have heat in a life threatening cold snap. I would certainly help as many of my neighbors as i could in such a situation,wether they  prepared or not but i cannot be their backup plan,they have to do it. IMHO


----------



## skfire

Seasoned Oak said:


> What does compassion have to do with a backup plan. A reasonable plan may be to purchase a few $15 electric heaters, a used wood stove,ect. I just  think it is ultimately each homeowners responsibility not someone else,s to ensure they have heat in a life threatening cold snap. I would certainly help as many of my neighbors as i could in such a situation,wether they  prepared or not but i cannot be their backup plan,they have to do it. IMHO




Agreed 100%, but price gouging and rigging should be criminal and it has nothing to do with a back up plan.
Some home owners are elderly, infirm and some may be single provider raising a family....they have other issues to worry about, such as food on the table, medical bills etc....and worse not all neighbors are caring like yourself,(like it they used to be). In said cases I can forgive the lack of a back up plan and these are the people that get hurt by the energy cartels.Not making excuses for any hogs or leaches here and most people should have a back up.

Scott


----------



## BrotherBart

Off to the Inglenook. Not much about boiler or furnaces here.


----------



## IHATEPROPANE

moey said:


> It takes one lose connection at a max draw to cause a problem. Bad connections don't cause a breaker to trip unless they are shorting out. Just because the breaker is not tripping does not mean all is ok.



Yep....I have twice had started to notice light flickers at normal house loads.  One time the breaker was actually smoking and the second you could just hear it arching.  Breakers never tripped but I was close, very close to having a fire in that box.

Moral if the story is lights flickering need investigating.


----------



## skfire

BrotherBart said:


> Off to the Inglenook. Not much about boiler or furnaces here.



Quick on the draw huh? Saw it coming...

Fuel feeds boilers and furnaces though..but I humbly exit stage left.

Scott


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Yea, big energy companies dont have a very good public relations,sort of like big AG and others. I know its one reason i got away from NG. Although its cheap out of the ground its not cheap after the local gas company get through adding all sorts of charges and fees on. Just about any excuse to raise prices. In this case i would not be surprised if there is actually a very real shortage of propane in places as this frigid weather is spread over such a wide swath of the country and wont let up. Dont know that that is justification for the price though.  My solid fuel boiler has been running 24/7 for 2 months. If i burned oil or Propane gas my heat bill would be $600- $800 for 1 month instead of about that for the whole winter.


----------



## flyingcow

skfire said:


> Agreed 100%, but price gouging and rigging should be criminal and it has nothing to do with a back up plan.
> Some home owners are elderly, infirm and some may be single provider raising a family....they have other issues to worry about, such as food on the table, medical bills etc....and worse not all neighbors are caring like yourself,(like it they used to be). In said cases I can forgive the lack of a back up plan and these are the people that get hurt by the energy cartels.Not making excuses for any hogs or leaches here and most people should have a back up.
> 
> Scott



two very good sides here. 

1- always have a back up plan. Most of us here have that...the public? The percentages go down bad. 

2- energy crunch may end up looking like Gouging. I live in the trucking world, when it gets into winter, times are pushed. Shortages? Yes, It's time to make money, but life becomes short with family and friends. But, it's time to roll and get the job done. 

fuel dealers? energy crunches/delivery problems/etc and then add on winter? yes it's time to make money. 

But it sounds like the upper midwest is in a bad spot for propane. Not good.


----------



## WiscWoody

moey said:


> It takes one lose connection at a max draw to cause a problem. Bad connections don't cause a breaker to trip unless they are shorting out. Just because the breaker is not tripping does not mean all is ok.


When I built this house I and my best friend who is a electrician wires it and one point he made was to never use the outlet plug ins to connect the wires, always connect with the screws and make the tight. Also when using wire nuts alway pull on the wires to make sure there secure and to never reuse a wire nut since they are sprung. This house is wired good but I can't speak for others on here.


----------



## WiscWoody

Phoenix Hatchling said:


> All this propane talk is scaring me for summer time! That's when the pool needs to be brought out of hibernation, and with the temps were having it will be august before that ground is warm enough to take the heater. May need to consider investing in a heat pump.


The prices should have dropped by then. Not to last summers price but I'd think under $2.25/gal


----------



## Former Farmer

hermancm said:


> The prices should have dropped by then. Not to last summers price but I'd think under $2.25/gal



How did you come up with $2.25/gal?


----------



## Ehouse

It's one thing to raise prices but quite another to remove a vital product from the market with little warning at the peak of need.


----------



## WiscWoody

Former Farmer said:


> How did you come up with $2.25/gal?


I got it right off the top of non expert head. But seriously looking at graphs on LPG price swings for twenty years it seems to drop fast after a spike in prices but I don't think it ll be the $1.24 I paid for my last summer fill. But if he wants a pool heat pump I don't want to discourage him too much.


----------



## WiscWoody

The forecast lows for the next three night are -24, -28 and -18. and my neighbors are going to Cancun today. what they see in that place escapes me...?  lol!


----------



## bbfarm

Just watched our local news and for the first time since this started they mentioned a major propane line down for repairs and the propane that was used for drying crops.  

The crop drying I knew about but it's the first I have heard about a supply line being down


----------



## Doug MacIVER

cold down the line if models are correct


----------



## Ehouse

hermancm said:


> The forecast lows for the next three night are -24, -28 and -18. and my neighbors are going to Cancun today. what they see in that place escapes me...?  lol!




Cancun used to be the starting point to access the "Gringo Trail" maybe this is still true, but it's been awhile.  Get the cheapest package with the minimal hotel stay.  If watching drunk schoolteachers from Indiana pee on the sawdust floor at Senior Frogs isn't your thing, boat over to Isla Mujares then bus south to Playa Del Carmen and Tulum, then on toChetumal and on to Belize and Guatemala, visit Tikal, take a bus through the Peten jungle to El Naranho, Dugout canoe down the Rio Usmacinta, To the Lacandon, go to Palenque. don't miss Agua Azul, on up the mountains to San Cristobal de las Casas, back down to Campeche, Merida, Progresso, the Yellow City, Dzitnup Cenote, well worth a side trip to Ushmal and the singing caves of Loltun, to Chitzen Itza and the beautiful city of  Valladolid.  Then back to Cancun and home.


----------



## eclecticcottage

RE: backup- we are lucky to have our wood stove at the Cottage.  At the Old House, there wasn't room.  The rooms were too small to meet clearances.  Now that it's a rental, I'm glad because I wouldn't trust tenants with one anyway. Running 1500 watt heaters for a little while might be ok, but trying to keep an old house warm with them would be tough.  Plus it depends on if you've updated your electric (both the Cottage and Old House have new service, but originally, the Old House had K&T and the Cottage...well..a mix of several eras).  If somehow NG and electric were out to the Old House, there'd be no backup.  Kero maybe, but they've got dogs.  Or a portable LP heater, if they could get LP.  Now if it was just electric, they'd have to figure out how to heat food on the stovetop of the DV NG stoves, but they'd be warm.  We lost power for a bit a couple years back in an ice storm and we were fine (we still lived at the Old House).  Not even bored, we were out sawing up trees for peeps (ah, all the lost BTUs-since this was pre-Cottage/pre-woodstove).

We take care  of a house for some folks, and we were just talking about what an issue it would be if they lost power (forced air heat).  Guess we'd have to hope we had enough LP in the tank we've got for our grill and bring our torpedo heater over there.

Around Thanksgiving our neighbors here at the Cottage lost their boiler and they weren't home (he left as scheduled and she was already gone-before he left he called a repair man to check into the "funny noises" which turned out to be the thing running full out with no restriction on temp).  They couldn't come back home, the repair guy could manually turn it on and off but he wasn't staying all night and into thanksgiving.  We offered to run their wood stove, but they asked that we use their 1500 watt heaters instead.  We were over there every few hours (including overnight) checking those dang things to be sure the cords weren't hot, breakers weren't tripped, etc.  FOUR of them running.  I wouldn't do it in my house if I had a stove!!


----------



## razerface

eclecticcottage said:


> We were over there every few hours (including overnight) checking those dang things to be sure the cords weren't hot, breakers weren't tripped, etc.  FOUR of them running.  I wouldn't do it in my house if I had a stove!!


i would have been tempted to buy a cheap thermostat and put it on a power line somewhere


----------



## eclecticcottage

razerface said:


> i would have been tempted to buy a cheap thermostat and put it on a power line somewhere


 
They had ones with thermostats built in, I just don't trust them.  they asked us to use them, but I don't want their house to burn down!


----------



## Seasoned Oak

eclecticcottage said:


> They had ones with thermostats built in, I just don't trust them.  they asked us to use them, but I don't want their house to burn down!


They are trouble. I use them when rehabbing, but only on low. On high they tend to overheat the outlet and the plug. Many outlets cant take a 1500 watt draw for endless hours.


----------



## WiscWoody

They say to never leave a portable electric heater unattended. I'd be nervous too!


----------



## robertmcw

For all of those souls depending propane and natural gas, my heart goes to you.  I have read reports of $5.00 plus a gallon for propane and natural gas is right there too. 

Four years back I bought a used Olympic 1190 insert for the house and it has about 1200 sq. ft. with a LOT of single pane glass.  My dad built it in the mid 1960’s so you know the efficiencies are just not there.  Today it will be in the 30’s and from the weather man reports, we will dealing with the 20’s most of February at nights.  We heat with wood and propane.  That insert is awesome.  I do my part by stoking it with oak with wood I cut, split and stack in a covered barn and cure it for at least two years before I burn it.  Even I need to get up about 3 in the morning to add some wood; we keep really warm and toasty.  The propane never hits the 70 degree point before the heater kicks in.  The house keeps from 78 – 80 day times as my wife has health issues and she needs the warmth or she gets sick (she likes it in the high 80’s but that is too hot for me so she has a electric unit for her office).

If I had installed a smaller unit, I could not have happy.  During this last four years I have saved over $4,000.00 over the cost of the insert, the liner and the install costs.  I am 63 and I am still cutting wood and as long I can do it, I will be a happy camper every time the propane truck appears as it is not needed.


----------



## buc74

We put a wood stove in our living room this summer for mostly recreational use we thought. Turns out we pretty much have ran it none stop all winter, just luv the wood heat. And yes, still have pretty much a full tank of propane left for a added plus. I believe we will hit a high of -13 here today in northern WI.


----------



## Backwoods Savage

Good for you Robert. We can also relate to your wife's needs for a warm home and we keep our home 80 or above all winter. Naturally it takes a bit more fuel for us than for you because of location but that is okay. I've always enjoyed working in the woods. You still have a ways to go to catch me on the age thing but we probably match pretty good with the happy camper idea.


----------



## crazycatlady

I have heard of the propane shortage, but nothing about a NG shortage. Where are you getting your info from???


----------



## WiscWoody

Backwoods Savage said:


> Good for you Robert. We can also relate to your wife's needs for a warm home and we keep our home 80 or above all winter. Naturally it takes a bit more fuel for us than for you because of location but that is okay. I've always enjoyed working in the woods. You still have a ways to go to catch me on the age thing but we probably match pretty good with the happy camper idea.


I'd be wearing shorts and no shirt all the time if my place was 80 all of the time. My ex kept her house at 75 at all times and I and her kids would always try to sneak the thermostat down a few degrees but she checked it every time she passed by it! We used fans directed at us to keep col in the winter and to sleep better. 65-68 is the upstairs temp here and I've been downstairs all day in a short sleeve shirt at 53 degrees but i am cold down here. But its your house, have it hot as you please. Just babbling here....


----------



## WiscWoody

crazycatlady said:


> I have heard of the propane shortage, but nothing about a NG shortage. Where are you getting your info from???


He might have associated the two gases saying there's a NG shortage but today I read about a NG pipeline explosion in the Midwest that has reduced capacity when we need it in this deep freeze we are having.

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/event/article/id/289767/


----------



## robertmcw

I was quoting the price of natural gas.  I have seen it from a low of $1.927 m up to $5.173 in the two years spread.  Look at the history of the graphs here and click the icons for the date spreads:

http://www.investing.com/commodities/natural-gas

Contract Size*10,000 MMBtu*

14/04/2012 at $1.927

 26/01/2014 at $5.173

As of the date and time of this post the price of natural gas is $5.065.


The price of LP gas has spiked over 100% in FIVE days in TEXAS at

http://www.checkpropaneprices.com/?field_state_value_many_to_one=TX

TX

Collin

Jan 28 2014

Homeowner

101 to 200

$5.99

$6.99

TX

Tarrant

Jan 23 2014

Supplier (Leased)

401 to 500

$2.79

$0.00


Sometimes I do the right things and getting that insert is right on of the top of that list.


Robert


----------



## robertmcw

And I hate it as hot as we keep it BUT my wife has arthritis and she has health issues and the cold makes cry if it is even at 76.


----------



## jharkin

Thanks to regulated utilities we are still paying 53 cents a therm here in Massachusetts for natural gas. No shortage Ive seen.

Damn Socialists


----------



## MishMouse

To make matters worse Xcel energy had that Ng explosion in Canada limiting the supply of Ng to MN, WI and ND. 
http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/24551222/xcel-energy-asks-customers-to-conserve-natural-gas

MN is also under a State of Emergency from the propane shortage.
http://mn.gov/governor/newsroom/pressreleasedetail.jsp?id=102-112720

So we have a wood shortage, a Ng shortage, and a Propane shortage.
Add to that one of the coldest fall/winters on record.

Almost every week I hear of another house fire caused by either, electrical or chimney.

Last night the news had a story about families trying to keep warm using portable gas heaters.
The thought that was going through my head was CO2 poisoning.


----------



## razerface

eclecticcottage said:


> They had ones with thermostats built in, I just don't trust them.  they asked us to use them, but I don't want their house to burn down!


 no, i meant on the boiler that ran full bore.


----------



## TmbrCrk

I bet there will be a serious run on pellet and wood stoves this spring.


----------



## eclecticcottage

razerface said:


> no, i meant on the boiler that ran full bore.


 

It wasn't a thermostat issue, there was some sort of problem with a regulator or something on the actual unit itself.  I'm not familiar with the system, but it took them a few days to get the part, and then they had a different issue with it.


----------



## woodgeek

According to my neighbors, folks were paying $5/gallon, for propane, here in August!


----------



## WiscWoody

robertmcw said:


> I was quoting the price of natural gas.  I have seen it from a low of $1.927 m up to $5.173 in the two years spread.  Look at the history of the graphs here and click the icons for the date spreads:
> 
> http://www.investing.com/commodities/natural-gas
> 
> Contract Size*10,000 MMBtu*
> 
> 14/04/2012 at $1.927
> 
> 26/01/2014 at $5.173
> 
> As of the date and time of this post the price of natural gas is $5.065.
> 
> 
> The price of LP gas has spiked over 100% in FIVE days in TEXAS at
> 
> http://www.checkpropaneprices.com/?field_state_value_many_to_one=TX
> 
> TX
> 
> Collin
> 
> Jan 28 2014
> 
> Homeowner
> 
> 101 to 200
> 
> $5.99
> 
> $6.99
> 
> TX
> 
> Tarrant
> 
> Jan 23 2014
> 
> Supplier (Leased)
> 
> 401 to 500
> 
> $2.79
> 
> $0.00
> 
> 
> Sometimes I do the right things and getting that insert is right on of the top of that list.
> 
> 
> Robert


That's odd since Texas has so many newer  NG wells and TX and OK produce most of the NG.


----------



## yooperdave

Shortage???  
How about noting but lies in order to raise the price?

Remember the "gas shortage" of the mid 70's?


----------



## WiscWoody

Didn't OPEC restrict crude oil to raise prices? I suppose the same thing can happen here. You can have all kinds of the gas but if a company says their not selling it it can inflate the cost of the commodity.


----------



## WiscWoody

woodgeek said:


> According to my neighbors, folks were paying $5/gallon, for propane, here in August!


Ahem.... Hmm... I have my doubts about that. I paid $1.29 for my summer fill in the fourth week of July of 2013.


----------



## woodgeek

hermancm said:


> Ahem.... Hmm... I have my doubts about that. I paid $1.29 for my summer fill in the fourth week of July of 2013.



You got a deal....the national average retail price was more like $2.50 then according to the EIA.

Up a buck in the last week: http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/heatingoilpropane/

Yikes.


----------



## begreen

hermancm said:


> Ahem.... Hmm... I have my doubts about that. I paid $1.29 for my summer fill in the fourth week of July of 2013.


Midwest has cheap propane prices. We paid $3.46 last summer.


----------



## BrotherBart

hermancm said:


> That's odd since Texas has so many newer  NG wells and TX and OK produce most of the NG.



Not exactly.

2011 NG production

Texas — 7.1 Tcf
Louisiana — 3.0 Tcf
Wyoming — 2.2 Tcf
Oklahoma — 1.9 Tcf
Colorado — 1.6 Tcf


----------



## WiscWoody

BrotherBart said:


> Not exactly.
> 
> 2011 NG production
> 
> Texas — 7.1 Tcf
> Louisiana — 3.0 Tcf
> Wyoming — 2.2 Tcf
> Oklahoma — 1.9 Tcf
> Colorado — 1.6 Tcf


Ok, thanks for checking.  Texas produces as much as the next three states on the list. Interesting.


----------



## BrotherBart

What was interesting is for many, many years the people in Louisiana that lived right on top of those gas fields didn't have NG available to them. It was all exported to other states.


----------



## WiscWoody

begreen said:


> Midwest has cheap propane prices. We paid $3.46 last summer.


I had to go look at my receipts. It looks like I paid $1.389 on 5/01/2013 and then $1.209 on 7/26/2013. The good old days...lol this is gas I use now and will do a summer fill again in July.


----------



## pen

BrotherBart said:


> What was interesting is for many, many years the people in Louisiana that lived right on top of those gas fields didn't have NG available to them. It was all exported to other states.



Living it here in Pa.  But for me, the pop density just isn't high enough here for the lines to be run.


----------



## BrotherBart

The largest gas pipeline from the Gulf Coast to the NE runs eight miles from my house. And no NG available here either.


----------



## WiscWoody

BTW- I only took 200 gallons in May instead of a 85% fill cuz they were thinking the price for LP would go down to $.99 a gallon like the summer of 2012 but it didn't go that low last year.


----------



## begreen

hermancm said:


> View attachment 125796
> View attachment 125794
> 
> 
> I had to go look at my receipts. It looks like I paid $1.389 on 5/01/2013 and then $1.209 on 7/26/2013. The good old days...lol this is gas I use now and will do a summer fill again in July.



We haven't seen $1.39 since the late 1990s here. $1.20 is our 1995 price.


----------



## tfdchief

robertmcw said:


> And I hate it as hot as we keep it BUT my wife has arthritis and she has health issues and the cold makes cry if it is even at 76.


Yep/.  For those who thinks 76 is too hot.  Well, there is a time when I would have agreed.  But now, with my wife having had Rheumatoid Arthritis for 20 years, and now I have been recently diagnosed with the same thing, well, heat feels good and cold hurts, so 76 is a good number for us.  Hope you all who think 76 is too hot, I hope you never get old or have arthritis.


----------



## tfdchief

I just paid double what I paid a month ago, to fill a 20 pound propane bottle.


----------



## WiscWoody

Well yes, there may come a day that I would have to get used to it.


----------



## tfdchief

hermancm said:


> Well yes, there may come a day that I would have to get used to it.


Or need it. Hope you never do. But for those of us who do, wood heat is a blessing.


----------



## robertmcw

Well, I am not a fortune teller but I feel (and hope) the prices will go back down in the spring, before the crops need propane to dry the corn and other grains and veggies they need to dry and before summer hits for a/c customers.  I think I enough for about 3 months before I need a new fill-up as we use propane for a back-up for the heater and we use it for cooking and hot water and heat for the greenhouse as needed.  This May, I may ask a supplier to price a 2000 bulk order (they hold it unit I need to use it) looking at buy a contact this year to lock the prices in for the next few years.


Keep your powder dry and keep your propane tanks full.


Robert


----------



## Ehouse

pen said:


> Living it here in Pa.  But for me, the pop density just isn't high enough here for the lines to be run.




The way it has been pitched up here, we'll all have access.  Schools, Buses, heating etc..  very rural here too.  I doubt it.


----------



## begreen

tfdchief said:


> Or need it. Hope you never do. But for those of us who do, wood heat is a blessing.


Good point. Our cat agrees 100% with you chief.


----------



## Retired Guy

hermancm said:


> He might have associated the two gases saying there's a NG shortage but today I read about a NG pipeline explosion in the Midwest that has reduced capacity when we need it in this deep freeze we are having.
> 
> http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/event/article/id/289767/


Explosion was in Manatoba


----------



## Retired Guy

We have been paying close to $4.00/gal for years. Cooking and HW only.


----------



## jharkin

eclecticcottage said:


> It wasn't a thermostat issue, there was some sort of problem with a regulator or something on the actual unit itself.  I'm not familiar with the system, but it took them a few days to get the part, and then they had a different issue with it.



Probably the high limit aquastat died if its a forced hot water boiler. Or the pressuretrol went bad if its steam. Either situation would allow it to overheat/overpressure before shutting down on the thermostat setpoint.


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## robertmcw

I was stunned when I went by AmeriGas in Tomball, Texas, today and they said they are selling propane at $3.00 a gallon.

Robert


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## WiscWoody

robertmcw said:


> I was stunned when I went by AmeriGas in Tomball, Texas, today and they said they are selling propane at $3.00 a gallon.
> 
> Robert


That would be stunning up here too if it were that cheap right now!


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## JustWood

Neighbor just got a delivery yesterday. Saw him today and asked how much.  $2.20/gal


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## WiscWoody

That's pretty reasonable right now!


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## harttj

N.w Ohio. Guy at work asked about my system. Gave him all the information and asked why. He just paid $5.82 per gallon. $500 only got 85 gallons. That is crazy.


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## mipellet1

wow I could use a few gallons more to back up my new pellet stove I installed almost two months ago hot water Is still on it but I don't have much in my tank just in case the stove goes down I think I gong to make that call now and see what it is here.


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## mipellet1

just called 3.68 glad I bought a stove this December


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## B-Mod

$7 in parts of WI....


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## granpajohn

MishMouse said:


> ...CO2 poisoning.



CO please.


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## WiscWoody

Yes, I checked and they are saying up to $7 a gallon in Wisconsin if you can get it. It's been below zero up here every night for most of the winter. We need a break from it soon!


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## B-Mod

I am getting use to the cold it is the wind and the cold that make it nasty, lol. They are talking cold for at least another 2 weeks for sure. It's been a weird winter here, very cold, lot's of snow, but no big snow storms, are biggest storm was last week when we got about 9", but it was the fluffy type snow.


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## WiscWoody

B-Mod said:


> I am getting use to the cold it is the wind and the cold that make it nasty, lol. They are talking cold for at least another 2 weeks for sure. It's been a weird winter here, very cold, lot's of snow, but no big snow storms, are biggest storm was last week when we got about 9", but it was the fluffy type snow.


Same up here, no storms but snow falls here and there and we have plenty now! i kept the roof of my "garage in a box" cleared for awhile but then it was too deep on the sides to get to it so it went down today. Usually you can count on a thaw here and there but this winter there hasn't been any. One for the books.. lol


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## WiscWoody

mipellet1 said:


> just called 3.68 glad I bought a stove this December


Good timing on your part! It's funny how my neighbors aren't laughing about my 2-3 year wood stockpiles any more and asking if I'd like to maybe sell some of it. I'm trying to thing of an apology, the The Rabbit and the Heir?


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## TmbrCrk

Weatherman says we have not had a day above freezing here since Dec 5!  Usually we have a few warm-ups but not this year. I am so glad I have the montecito.


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## MishMouse

I heard that propane prices are starting to fall in MN below $4, maybe it could be the that Gov, declared a non-wartime state of emergency.
Maybe it could be that they also stated that price gouging will be investigated.
Do not know but that is very good news for people who live on a fixed limited income during a winter where the temps are running 20 below average.


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## bag of hammers

hermancm said:


> When I built this house I and my best friend who is a electrician wires it and one point he made was to never use the outlet plug ins to connect the wires, always connect with the screws and make the tight. Also when using wire nuts alway pull on the wires to make sure there secure and to never reuse a wire nut since they are sprung. This house is wired good but I can't speak for others on here.



When the inspector was looking at my work, he also asked if I used any of these quick connect plugins in any of the circuits (I didn't) and he strongly advised against doing so.  I also had a couple connections either pull out or break off with the wire nut "pull test" (not many, but even one is one too many) - I think that's a great sanity check.


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## stoveguy2esw

a little off topic , but I remember one summer several years ago there was some kind of incident which prompted gasoline prices to possibly suddenly jump was not a "national" incident, but was enough to make the gas prices suddenly almost double ,  wife and I were getting ready to drive to myrtle beach that day and the gas station on the corner was so loaded up with traffic they had police out directing traffic in and out. People were trying to buy gas before the prices doubled. then as we were driving along I remember hearing on the radio that POTUS came out to the press room at the WH and stated that if there was any "price gouging" from this event that the US justice department would bring its full weight to bear on those who did so. prices dropped back to normal within an hour


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## Seasoned Oak

hermancm said:


> Yes, I checked and they are saying up to $7 a gallon in Wisconsin if you can get it. It's been below zero up here every night for most of the winter. We need a break from it soon!


ID be getting a wood or pellet stove installed before i would pay that kind of ransom. Folks using 12-15 gallons a day are paying what $100 a day for heat. $3000 a MONTH


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## Doug MacIVER

TmbrCrk said:


> Weatherman says we have not had a day above freezing here since Dec 5!  Usually we have a few warm-ups but not this year. I am so glad I have the montecito.


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Brazialian meteogram in Chicago has no above freezing till after March 1 <a href="http://t.co/0xMSWLj6qt">pic.twitter.com/0xMSWLj6qt</a></p>&mdash; Joe Bastardi (@BigJoeBastardi) <a href="https://twitter.com/BigJoeBastardi/statuses/431153661033467904">February 5, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> THIS IS AS SAYS! starting to get hints March is going to bust the cold


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## WiscWoody

Seasoned Oak said:


> ID be getting a wood or pellet stove installed before i would pay that kind of ransom. Folks using 12-15 gallons a day are paying what $100 a day for heat. $3000 a MONTH


Well, I think the price is coming down finally. I talked to a propane delivery driver the other day while he was filling his small truck from a big tank and he said their price has dropped to $4 a gallon from $5 the day before. It's still a lot of cash for a fill though. I told  him I was burning wood and he said that's what they want us to do, For anybody that can burn wood to do so. I think the price of gas will ensure of that!


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## WiscWoody

So even if you "only" paid $3.50 a gallon a 400 gallon fill would run you $1400 if my math is right. That's still a budget buster especially since I make less than ten grand a year since losing my career to the Great Recession in my mid fifties.


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## Seasoned Oak

hermancm said:


> So even if you "only" paid $3.50 a gallon a 400 gallon fill would run you $1400 if my math is right. That's still a budget buster especially since I make less than ten grand a year since losing my career to the Great Recession in my mid fifties.


What was your career if i may ask?


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## WiscWoody

Seasoned Oak said:


> What was your career if i may ask?


Facilities maintenance for a large school district. I mainly worked on large steam boilers and large water chillers, both steam absorption and electric centrifugal. And all of the many, many air handlers, plumbing and pumps to distribute the heating and cooling in large High Schools. I have left the cities and came up to what was my weekend home to live in now. There is very little work up here unless your a logger for the paper industry but I can live quite reasonably especially since I built this house myself and I never mortgaged it. Oh, and the wood is free for the asking! Lol. I'm plodding along until I can get my pension in a few years. I'll be fine.


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## Seasoned Oak

hermancm said:


> Facilities maintenance for a large school district.for the asking! Lol. I'm plodding along until I can get my pension in a few years. I'll be fine.


Let me guess ,they kept the $150000 a year Principal and the 2 $100,000 a year asst principals and the other 15 $100,000 +administrators and laid off the people who actually work there, like they are did in my small town(end of rant)


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## WiscWoody

Seasoned Oak said:


> Let me guess ,they kept the $150000 a year Principal and the 2 $100,000 a year asst principals and the other 15 $100,000 +administrators and laid off the people who actually work there, like they are did in my small town(end of rant)


Pretty much, they changed the names of some Ass't Principals to "teacher on special assignment" so not to be counted as a administrator so they could say they cut back in that department. In my close to 30 years working in a school district I can say that they're very political. But the one I worked in was very good at what they did and many students were taking college courses while in high school for the free credits.


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## Ehouse

Seasoned Oak said:


> Let me guess ,they kept the $150000 a year Principal and the 2 $100,000 a year asst principals and the other 15 $100,000 +administrators and laid off the people who actually work there, like they are did in my small town(end of rant)




1 superintendent, 2 assistant principals and a partridge in a pear tree for 700 students K-12 in the one school in the district and all they can do is lay off teachers and others who do the work.


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## bag of hammers

hermancm said:


> Facilities maintenance for a large school district. I mainly worked on large steam boilers and large water chillers, both steam absorption and electric centrifugal. And all of the many, many air handlers, plumbing and pumps to distribute the heating and cooling in large High Schools. I have left the cities and came up to what was my weekend home to live in now. There is very little work up here unless your a logger for the paper industry but I can live quite reasonably especially since I built this house myself and I never mortgaged it. Oh, and the wood is free for the asking! Lol. I'm plodding along until I can get my pension in a few years. I'll be fine





hermancm said:


> Pretty much, they changed the names of some Ass't Principals to "teacher on special assignment" so not to be counted as a administrator so they could say they cut back in that department. In my close to 30 years working in a school district I can say that they're very political. But the one I worked in was very good at what they did and many students were taking college courses while in high school for the free credits.



+1

There are some very good people working at some schools (a couple teachers I've met I would say were exceptional), but "political" is an understatement (based on experience bringing a kid with disabilities through "the system").   Sometimes I think the maintenance guys could have swapped places with the "suits" and done a better job, being more grounded to reality and all that.  

Building your own place and being self sufficient - good on you.  FWIW I'm also going down that path.  It's a crazy amount of work and I will end up with pretty humble accommodations if I ever get it done (no McMansion for me) - but I don't want to be chained to any bank or dependent on any charity if and when I can finally retire.


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## Seasoned Oak

Just swapped some LP tanks for full ones .Price is the same high rate they always charge on those 20 Lbers i use for space heating on the job.  About $5 a gallon. IF i just get em filled its about $4 a gallon.


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## WiscWoody

bag of hammers said:


> +1
> 
> There are some very good people working at some schools (a couple teachers I've met I would say were exceptional), but "political" is an understatement (based on experience bringing a kid with disabilities through "the system").   Sometimes I think the maintenance guys could have swapped places with the "suits" and done a better job, being more grounded to reality and all that.
> 
> Building your own place and being self sufficient - good on you.  FWIW I'm also going down that path.  It's a crazy amount of work and I will end up with pretty humble accommodations if I ever get it done (no McMansion for me) - but I don't want to be chained to any bank or dependent on any charity if and when I can finally retire.


I shouldn't say I built the whole place myself, I hired out the excavation, masonry, I had a helper for the framing and I have friends who hang drywall so I hired them to do that heavy work. And my best friend is a electrician but back in the cities, he got me going on the wiring and I bugged the hell out of him on the phone while I wired it. I grew tired of working on the place no doubt and it still needs flooring and a banister but the budget won't allow for that now so I have mats all over the OSB flooring. Someday maybe.


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## bag of hammers

hermancm said:


> I shouldn't say I built the whole place myself, I hired out the excavation, masonry, I had a helper for the framing and I have friends who hang drywall so I hired them to do that heavy work. And my best friend is a electrician but back in the cities, he got me going on the wiring and I bugged the hell out of him on the phone while I wired it. I grew tired of working on the place no doubt and it still needs flooring and a banister but the budget won't allow for that now so I have mats all over the OSB flooring. Someday maybe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 126707



very nice - good to have some friends to help out (especially drywall - what a job that is for a DIY).  My kitchen (the original cabin) is still a plywood floor almost 16 years later  and I'm just getting to the renovations there now.  One back room isn't even mudded yet, I got tiling, trim, deck work, couple mroe doors, etc. - things that will probably be ongoing projects forever.  As long as you got a warm dry safe place to lay your head, you got 'er beat.  

Sorry for kinda going off topic from your original thread - thanks for the pic


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## MishMouse

In my area some of the banks are doing short term 1% loans to help people pay for their propane.
With temps still running around -20 below average, this is a very good thing.  

Have you hugged your stove lately?


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## WiscWoody

I just talked to retired neighbor down the road. I don't think he knew what was going on with the propane shortage but he said he got a 200 gallon ration then got the bill and he hit the roof and went out and bought a pellet stove and has it going already. He put it in himself too. You can call all of us Flex Fuelers eh?


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## Seasoned Oak

hermancm said:


> I just talked to retired neighbor down the road. I don't think he knew what was going on with the propane shortage but he said he got a 200 gallon ration then got the bill and he hit the roof and went out and bought a pellet stove and has it going already. He put it in himself too. You can call all of us Flex Fuelers eh?


I think we in the wood and wood pellet world are going to get a lot of converts this year.


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## woodgeek

Seasoned Oak said:


> I think we in the wood and wood pellet world are going to get a lot of converts this year.



And 90% of them will forget within 30 days.


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## WiscWoody

woodgeek said:


> And 90% of them will forget within 30 days.


I'm not so sure about them forgetting so fast when some will be paying the heat bills for some time to come. The cold continues on up here. I have -8F static at 8pm and it's going down to -17f stat tonight just like every night this winter.


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## Doug MacIVER

gotta get through this winter. let's see, propain short, nat gas as high as it's been in several years, oil not as bad but same ole expensive stuff, towns and cities out of salt. next i'll bet we can add electricity to mix, a year from now. really thinking I need a bigger stove? will definitely lay in extra cordwood and fire brick over the summer.


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## bag of hammers

Doug MacIVER said:


> will definitely lay in extra cordwood and fire brick over the summer.



amen to that brother...


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