# I messed myself!



## MTY (Aug 24, 2019)

40K bid for a 4 ton horizontal geo thermal system.  This is tax included.  All conditioned space, so the ducts do not need to be insulated.  And I do the dirt work. 

With electic at 9 cents per KWH, this will take along time to break even.


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## sloeffle (Aug 24, 2019)

That is ridiculous. There is some serious mark up in that quote.

We have a 4 ton Waterfurnace system and it cost us about half of that all in ( dirt work, ducting, taxes, etc ).


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## begreen (Aug 24, 2019)

IIRC, our bid for a similar system - in 2006 - was north of $25K. And that with me doing some of the duct branch work and wiring.


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 24, 2019)

If you put 40k into closed cell getting sprayed into the house you could heat it with a candle.


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## MTY (Aug 24, 2019)

I imagine the vendor thinks people will be so excited about the tax credit that the cost will not matter.  Insulating the bejeezus out of it was also my response to the bid. 

i have two HVAC companies coming to look at the house next week.  They will bid air heat pumps and back up strips.  Since the duct work is necessary for either ground or air it wlli be interesting to see where the bibs come in.


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## Ashful (Aug 25, 2019)

Neighbor just paid $26k two years ago, complete turnkey conversion on his existing ductwork for a 6500 sq.ft. house at 5000 HDD climate.  I believe it is a deep well system, because I didn’t see any bulldozers moving dirt or massive re-seeding work in his lawn.


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## begreen (Aug 25, 2019)

Yes, prices can vary dramatically depending on the region, installation type and contractor. We had quotes from around $8-22K for our air to air heat pump system. Ended up going with the $8.5K bid with me doing the insulated duct branches and electric. The $22K bid was from a Home Depot sponsored contractor. He wasn't even in the ballpark.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 25, 2019)

begreen said:


> Yes, prices can vary dramatically depending on the region, installation type and contractor. We had quotes from around $8-22K for our air to air heat pump system. Ended up going with the $8.5K bid with me doing the insulated duct branches and electric. The $22K bid was from a Home Depot sponsored contractor. He wasn't even in the ballpark.



Oftentimes those insanely high prices are just contractors that don't want your job.


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## Ashful (Aug 26, 2019)

I’ve noticed I get a lot more crazy high quotes in my current house, than I did when I lived in a more average house.  I expect that trend will reverse, when I eventually downsize.  The ironic thing is that I had a lot more money to burn when I lived in a smaller house.


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## Highbeam (Aug 26, 2019)

MTY said:


> i have two HVAC companies coming to look at the house next week. They will bid air heat pumps and back up strips. Since the duct work is necessary for either ground or air it wlli be interesting to see where the bibs come in.



This is going to be a good comparison. Thinking geothermal was just one of those bridge technologies until air source heat pumps made some relatively small technological improvements. Just like CFL bulbs.


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## maple1 (Aug 29, 2019)

MTY said:


> 40K bid for a 4 ton horizontal geo thermal system.  This is tax included.  All conditioned space, so the ducts do not need to be insulated.  And I do the dirt work.
> 
> With electic at 9 cents per KWH, this will take along time to break even.



Do you have ductwork in place now? Does that include all new ductwork?


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## MTY (Aug 29, 2019)

No ductwork, new construction.


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## DickRussell (Aug 29, 2019)

For new construction in a heating climate, always put your first money into much better than "to code" construction, rather than looking for cheap heat to squander on a house built the way most are. Make it superinsulated, and there is plenty of information online on how to do that. Four tons of heat load is absurd, when you can make the house so much better so easily that the heating system would be more than adequate at just two tons, unless you are building some 6-8,000 sqft mansion.


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## maple1 (Aug 29, 2019)

This is just personal opinion/preference, but I wouldn't do any ducts. They take up too much space for me and make too many issues on how to get around them with other stuff, or how to get them around other stuff to get where you want them. I would put money into making sure you are as well insulated and sealed as possible, and mini-splits. That Geo quote is huge.


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## Ashful (Aug 29, 2019)

6000-8000 square ft is a mansion?!?


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## maple1 (Aug 29, 2019)

Ashful said:


> 6000-8000 square ft is a mansion?!?


I vote yes.


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## Highbeam (Aug 29, 2019)

maple1 said:


> I vote yes.



Me too.


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## Ashful (Aug 29, 2019)

There's a crap ton of cheap vinyl "mansions" crammed onto less than 1-acre lots around here, if that's the threshold.  Some local builders are erecting them by the hundreds.


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## MTY (Aug 29, 2019)

DickRussell said:


> For new construction in a heating climate, always put your first money into much better than "to code" construction, rather than looking for cheap heat to squander on a house built the way most are. Make it superinsulated, and there is plenty of information online on how to do that. Four tons of heat load is absurd, when you can make the house so much better so easily that the heating system would be more than adequate at just two tons, unless you are building some 6-8,000 sqft mansion.



There has been zero scrimping so far.  I want it so well insulated one fart will heat it for a week, but the spousal unit still thinks we need AC and heat.  It is right at 2500 sq ft.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2019)

MTY said:


> I want it so well insulated one fart will heat it for a week, but the spousal unit still thinks we need AC and heat


She will want a gas mask and no beans for hubby.


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## maple1 (Aug 30, 2019)

MTY said:


> There has been zero scrimping so far.  I want it so well insulated one fart will heat it for a week, but the spousal unit still thinks we need AC and heat.  It is right at 2500 sq ft.


 
One ton is 12000 btus - I think?

We have 2700 sq.ft. in two storys (on top of 1500 unfinished basement). On an open windy hill top. 23 years old now. It was built decent for the time but there are better ways to do things & materials to use these days. We put 2 x 12,000 BTU mini-splits in, back in November. I think if we had one more, they could carry all our heating & cooling load, year round. As long as the power wasn't out. They were doing it fine down to -15c this past winter, that's as low as I tried them. So that's 3 tons. Based on what we had done in the fall, I would ballpark 3 tons of mini-split over 3 units at around $12,000, installed by a good installer, with full factory warranty. Even bumping to 3 x 15,000 BTU units shouldn't be much more $$. No duct work, no ground work, simple electric feeds. Just seems too easy to me. With lots left over for more insulation and a wood stove to supplement, if desired. I don't think there is any way I could justify to myself to go Geo.

Not sure how your climate compares to here though.


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## Ashful (Aug 30, 2019)

I have had several minisplits, and for heating in our climate, they simply don’t work.  Mine have all been Mitsubishi systems, and they all fail to put out any reasonable amount of heat when outside temps dip into the teens.  Get down into the single digits, and they’ll use more electric in a few days than in a full year of normal operation.

They’re a great option if your temps never get much below freezing, or a great back-up option, if you have gas, oil, or wood to carry the load when it gets real cold.  They’re also fantastic for cooling, but primary heaters in a mid-Atlantic climate, they are not!


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## MTY (Aug 30, 2019)

Mini splits are off the table.  I should have my air to air bids next week.  Two companies came out.  One was, "Can Do!"*, the other one was fairly negative about questions asked.  *


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## DickRussell (Aug 31, 2019)

MTY said:


> There has been zero scrimping so far.  ..... It is right at 2500 sq ft.



Idaho is a mixture of heating climate zones 5 and 6, depending on where you are. Do you know what your town's design minimum temperature is (which I think means it's lower only 1% of the time)?

I suspect that in specifying a four-ton unit the contractor (a) doesn't know how to do a thorough heat loss calculation for a very well insulated house; (b) knows how, but is unwilling to spend the time it takes to figure in all the details for such a house; or (c) at least suspects that a smaller unit would work, but knows also that he makes more money selling the bigger unit and knows that he won't get callbacks for oversizing a system.

At four tons for just 2500 sqft, he's figuring on 625 sq.ft. per ton of heating load. That's far too low for new, very well insulated construction. I won't give you a better rule of thumb to use, because rules of thumb should not be used for this at all; that's just guessing. You ought to have someone knowledgeable do a very detailed heat loss calculation, using actual dimensions, details of construction and insulation of all parts of the house, sizes and U values of all windows and doors, and results of blower door test obtained (or expected, if not at that point yet). You could even do this yourself with a spreadsheet; that's what I did.

For comparison, my house is a total of about 4000 sqft, on two levels, built into a hill. Uphill side of the lower level is full foundation wall, while the downhill side is fully framed. The sides are stepped. Framing is double wall (2x6 outer, 2x4 inner), with a 12" insulation cavity; whole-wall R value is close to 40. Attic is R60. Windows are triple-pane casements and fixed glass. Sub-slab insulation is R20, as are foundation walls. House is very tight, with HRV for continuous low-level ventilation. My spreadsheet told me the heat loss at -3 F would be about 22,000 BTU/hr (1.83 tons). The area distributor for Climatemaster specified a five-ton unit, as did two other installers. None did a really detailed calculation, but used canned software and some incorrect assumptions. In operation since 2011, my two-ton unit keeps the house at a nice even 70 F, in just first stage. My best calculation of actual heat loss at zero, based on limited data over a three-day period when the outside temperature swung just a few degrees to either side of zero, is about 19,000 BTU/hr (1.58 tons). That's about 2500 sqft/ton, although that's a number that certainly does not scale by size. A better, but still very very crude approximation would be by square root of living area, so your 2500 sqft might actually lose only 1.25 tons worth of heat, other things being equal, which they certainly are not. But four tons for only 2500 sqft ???? 

Bottom line, however you heat/cool the house, you ought to have someone competent do a detailed heat loss calculation, so that you really know what you'll need. Be in the driver's seat on this, and don't just accept what the contractor wants to install.


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## MTY (Aug 31, 2019)

As they say, "Welcome to Idaho, turn your clock back 20 years,"  I haven't a clue who I could get to do these calculations.  I can barely get people to show up to make a bid. 

The two air to air contractors who showed up thought 3 ton was more appropriate than 4.  My big problem now is that the insulation contractor went missing.  Batts I can stuff, blow in I can blow, however I have only been able to find one person who does closed cell foam.  I do not have the equipment for it.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 1, 2019)

MTY said:


> As they say, "Welcome to Idaho, turn your clock back 20 years,"  I haven't a clue who I could get to do these calculations.  I can barely get people to show up to make a bid.
> 
> The two air to air contractors who showed up thought 3 ton was more appropriate than 4.  My big problem now is that the insulation contractor went missing.  Batts I can stuff, blow in I can blow, however I have only been able to find one person who does closed cell foam.  I do not have the equipment for it.



You might be doing some things yourself if you can't find a qualified contractor. I tried to pay someone to fix our house, but there just wasn't anyone I would trust available for at least a year. Now the folks at the lumberyard think I'm a contractor. Look up the formulas, crunch the numbers, figure out what you need and then go from there. These guys are probably busy as hell with these crazy storms, heat waves, and all round unusual weather (cough cough). You might be waiting, but it will be much easier to get the bid if you do the numbers and tell them what you want. Contractors are always going to drift towards what makes them the most money. Clearly the first bid wasn't done for your sake, but rather that contractor probably won't do any job under $40,000 due to his overhead. Put yourself in these guys' shoes; there are dozens of customers out there who will just give them a blank check and say my house is too hot/cold. That's nothing but a payday and no headaches for a HVAC contractor. You on the other hand care a lot more about this project than most clients and will be managing the whole thing every step of the way. If you come up with a plan of action before they get to your house then you will have a much easier time of convincing these guys it is worth their time.


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## MTY (Sep 2, 2019)

This is pretty much where I am at on the entire project.  For example, the siding bid was 29 almost 30K and 18 months out.  Now I am doing the siding.  I try to get someone from each trade, and then when the bids are rediculous I do it myself.

I have been looking at Green Foam online.  10K would get me 4+" in the wall cavities, the rim joist cavities, and seal the ceiling.  With R60 in the ceiling, 7' eaves, and decent window I probably will not even need AC.  I may run on a wood stove for a year and see how well it works out.  i did a similar sized house 30 years ago, and while the technology was way behind today I dropped from 6-7 cords a year to 2-3.

This is house exstensive remodel 6 for me, so I can do most of the work.  I am mostly trying to buy time by using contractors.


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## sloeffle (Sep 2, 2019)

MTY said:


> I have been looking at Green Foam online.  10K would get me 4+" in the wall cavities, the rim joist cavities, and seal the ceiling.


I've never heard of sealing the ceiling with spray foam. Is the purpose to keep air leaking from the conditioned space ( first of second floor ) to the unconditioned space ( attic ) ?


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## Ashful (Sep 2, 2019)

MTY said:


> This is pretty much where I am at on the entire project.  For example, the siding bid was 29 almost 30K and 18 months out.  Now I am doing the siding.  I try to get someone from each trade, and then when the bids are rediculous I do it myself.


I did the same on converting my old carriage barn to a finished shop, but having always been told insulation is one of those things you can always hire out for even less than DIY, I hired that job out.  In the end, I did spray foam and the guy gave me way more than I paid, so I was very pleased.  If I didn't have two big decorate PVC overhead doors, the place would be almost vacuum-tight.

Having watched them do the prep, and then the spraying, and then the cleanup, that is not a job I'd want to do myself.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 2, 2019)

I've done it with the 20lb tanks, and out of the professional spray rigs.   There really isnt a comparison in the quality of the product.   Both work, but the pros give a much better product.  And do it safely.   If you do it wrong, itll mess up your lungs.


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## MTY (Sep 2, 2019)

sloeffle said:


> I've never heard of sealing the ceiling with spray foam. Is the purpose to keep air leaking from the conditioned space ( first of second floor ) to the unconditioned space ( attic ) ?


Sealing around light boxes, fan boxes, and other penetrations.


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## MTY (Sep 4, 2019)

The first air to air heat pump with handler and heat strips bid came in today.  $14,700 for 3.5 ton, 16 seer, all ductwork etc..  Complete install minus electrical connection.  The company recommended 3.5 with the standard code required insulation, but would drop price and size if I follow through with upgraded insulation.  I have several walls that are over 50% window.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 5, 2019)

That's a contractor that wants your money.


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## Highbeam (Sep 6, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> That's a contractor that wants your money.



Is there another kind?


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## Ashful (Sep 6, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Is there another kind?



Jimmy Carter.


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## Highbeam (Sep 6, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Jimmy Carter.



Couldn’t find him in the yellow pages. I was alive but too young to remember his presidency.


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## begreen (Sep 7, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Couldn’t find him in the yellow pages. I was alive but too young to remember his presidency.


Been doing this for the past 35 yrs. 
https://www.tennessean.com/story/ne...-habitat-humanity-homes-nashville/2228404001/


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## SpaceBus (Sep 7, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Is there another kind?


Yes, his original contractor which did not want his money. There are many contractors that won't work for small jobs, it just usually isn't worth it for them. I didn't say "contractors want money", we all do.


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## MTY (Sep 7, 2019)

Monday I am going to track down air to air contractor #2.  I expected his bid by now.


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## begreen (Sep 8, 2019)

Surprised it's taking so long. I had 5 bids within 2 weeks.


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## MTY (Sep 9, 2019)

They sent the second bid to the wrong address.  $14,500 for a 15 SEER unit.  The bid was more complete and included a few things the first did not.


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## begreen (Sep 9, 2019)

What heat pump model and what HSPF? Same size as the other bid? Which is more important, cooling or heating?


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## MTY (Sep 9, 2019)

begreen said:


> What heat pump model and what HSPF? Same size as the other bid? Which is more important, cooling or heating?



Cooling is most important.  If I was living by myself, I would not even consider AC.  But I am not living by myself.

Bid #2
JOB INCLUDES:

RUUD Achiever Series 15KW 3.5 ton Air Handler Unit
RUUD Achiever Series 14 SEER 3.5 Ton Heat Pump Unit
RUUD indoor 3.5 ton heat pump coil
Copper line set to new heat pump
Return air ductwork to framed chase in laundry room
Supply air ductwork install in basement and crawl space
Registers provided to each room as needed
Return air grill in ceiling upstairs
Thermostat and low voltage wire
Materials used to install furnace in crawl space
Heat pump pad with heat pump risers
Condensate pump with condensate line

OPTIONS:
-Upgrade to a RUUD 15 SEER heat pump unit add $700.00

Bid #1
INSTALL 3 1/2 TON 14 SEER AMERICAN STANDARD HEATPUMP WITH 20 KW AMERICAN STANDARD AIR HANDLER AND DUCTWORK IN REMODEL.
11,990.00 11,990.00

*UPGRADE TO 16 SEER AMERICAN STANDARD HEAT PUMP WITH
VARIABLE SPEED AIR HANDLER. ADD $2680.00 TO ESTIMATE


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## begreen (Sep 9, 2019)

There is a big difference in model lines. I'd ask both bidders for specific models of air handlers and heat pump. The RUUD bit sounds like a low ball. We have an American Standard 16 SEER unit with 2-speed compressor and variable speed air handler. This looks to be the equivalent of their Platinum 18 series now. It's been a good unit and trouble-free, but we do not rely on it for cooling very much. (Not at all this year.) Besides being reliable I like that it is fairly quiet and very quiet when running in low-speed mode. 

Are you going to get more bids?


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## MTY (Sep 9, 2019)

begreen said:


> There is a big difference in model lines. I'd ask both bidders for specific models of air handlers and heat pump. The RUUD bit sounds like a low ball. We have an American Standard 16 SEER unit with 2-speed compressor and variable speed air handler. This looks to be the equivalent of their Platinum 18 series now. It's been a good unit and trouble-free, but we do not rely on it for cooling very much. (Not at all this year.) Besides being reliable I like that it is fairly quiet and very quiet when running in low-speed mode.
> 
> Are you going to get more bids?


Why do you think the RUUD is a lowball bid?  Would you normally expect it to be higher?


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## begreen (Sep 9, 2019)

Sorry wrong term, I meant a low-end system bid. You need to get into their Ultra series for decent performance or at least their Achiever RP16 series to be Energy Star rated. Locally they don't sell too well. They can be hard to clean and some have a problem with freeze-ups. 

Are there any Mitsubishi or Daikin dealers in your area?


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## MTY (Sep 10, 2019)

I'll do some checking.  I have a meeting Thursday in Moscow.  I'll visit a dealer or two there.


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## sloeffle (Sep 10, 2019)

Me personally, I'd pay the extra money to upgrade to the American Standard Heat pump. I've never heard anything bad about their products. I see RUUD as being more of builder grade product, and American Standard as a higher end product.


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## Ashful (Sep 10, 2019)

I’ll second the recommendation for Mitsubishi.  I have had four Mitsubishi minisplits dating back to 2010, and all have been 100% reliable and trouble-free.  They have their performance limitations, in cold weather (< 20F they really suck), but no issues with maintenance or reliability.


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## DBoon (Sep 10, 2019)

I bought a Ruud heat pump a few years back. It's definitely a lower-end brand - the condenser unit is super loud and makes a real racket whenever it goes into defrost mode. I wouldn't do it again. The Trane I have is a lot quieter and seems much better built.


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## MTY (Sep 11, 2019)

I talked with the two HVAC contractors in Moscow, ID today.  One said they were booked up on bidding until mid to late October with installs booked until some time in December or January. 

The other one said they were booked on bids for weeks, but that they could send someone next week to take pictures of the work site for the bidder.  They too were booked for installs until well into winter. 

So far, of the two bids I have the American Standard 16 SEER looks like the best equipment, but the RUDD guy was more, "Can Do!".  I have a 4' crawl space with a concrete floor that I would like to put the air handler in.  American Standard guy said no, RUDD guy say no problem. 

The Moscow contractors were Trane and Lennox.


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## begreen (Sep 11, 2019)

A 4' crawl space means a horizontal air handler. That means a ceiling hung or horizontal air handler. The A/S Silver line air-handler model is TEM8A0C36 I think. Trane is good stuff if that person will bid. Also get a quote from the Daikin dealer. Which is closer to you, Moscow or Cour d'Alene?

Do you know why the installer objected? Is the crawlspace a sealed and insulated space or open vented to outdoors?


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## MTY (Sep 11, 2019)

begreen said:


> A 4' crawl space means a horizontal air handler. That means a ceiling hung or horizontal air handler. The A/S Silver line air-handler model is TEM8A0C36 I think. Trane is good stuff if that person will bid. Also get a quote from the Daikin dealer. Which is closer to you, Moscow or Cour d'Alene?
> 
> Do you know why the installer objected? Is the crawlspace a sealed and insulated space or open vented to outdoors?


The Trane guy will not bid until mid to late Oct.  Moscow is about 85  miles closer than CDA.  I am SE of Moscow. 

I asked why the A/S guy objected, and he basically just grunted.  The crawlspace is conditioned.  The RUUD guy was going to hang it. 

I have just about settled on the American Standard.  I'll just tell the guy it goes horizontal or it does not go.This was my plan from the start.  It is why I poured the crawlspace floor. If the handler is not hung, the duct work will take up my entry into the crawlspace and I will have to cut a hole in a closet floor.


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## begreen (Sep 11, 2019)

Our A/S air handler is in a conditioned crawlspace with a deeper utility well. It works nicely, albeit in a milder climate.

Have you tried Unlimited Heating from Pullman? Sears?


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## MTY (Sep 11, 2019)

Unlimited Heating shows up in Potlatch ID on Facebook but no website.  There are a couple of outfits in Pullman, one is RUUD, I will try calling the other one tomorrow. I believe Costco is Lennox.  Thanks!


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## begreen (Sep 11, 2019)

They're in Pullman. (509) 332-8659


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## MTY (Sep 12, 2019)

begreen said:


> They're in Pullman. (509) 332-8659


I see that, but no web page so I will have to call them in the morning to see which brand they carry.  They may be the same outfit with the Potlatch FB page.  The two towns are closer than one would guess by mapping them.  There is a dirt road that cuts the diffference in almost in half. 

30 years ago I knew the Hilliards in Pullman.  McCoy in Moscow was scheduled to work at my Moscow place about 1995.  I was putting in a BK gas insert and they were to do the pipe work.  They did not show up on job day, and when I called them they told me to find someone else as they had found a more profitable job.  Powell in Moscow put a gas furnace in for me around 1985, but they only do plumbing now. 

Guardian in Clarkston was our HVAC company for the business I manage in Lewiston.  I could not get them to do a service call when the furnace died during the coldest part of the winter 3 years ago.  The Amercan Standard HVAC company has been doing our service work since then.


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## MTY (Sep 12, 2019)

Unlimited Heating is in Potlatch with a warehouse in Pullman.  They are a RUUD dealer.  When I called I was told they were too busy, but that they also hated to pass up an opportunity to bid.  So, they are going to bid next week.  I will ask them to bid the same work as the other RUUD dealer and see what they have to say about horizontal.  I'll also ask them to bid a SEER 16 upgrade.


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