# The value proposition? Englander vs. more expensive (Quadrafire / Harman)



## refiners_fire (Oct 4, 2014)

I've been reading lots on this forum and have found many good tips. 

Here's the deal, I'm looking at a pellet stove for the house. From what I can tell, Englander stoves are fairly rugged and provide incredible service after the sale - and seem to be second to none in the industry for their service. The more expensive stoves are perhaps built better (maybe?), depending on the model - could be all cast iron, and might be a bit prettier but may not have the service. On the other hand, it seems both Englander stoves and the more expensive ones have their "issues."

Using rough dollars, I'm looking at the Englander 25EP ($2k), the quadrafire Mt. Vernon ($4k), and maybe the Harman P series (maybe 61a) ($4k).
*
So here's my question: What is the value proposition of the more expensive stoves? *

I've seen a lot of "you'll get what you pay for" - comments. Can someone please substantiate? I've seen lots of positive and negative comments on all brands of stoves and would like to know what the additional $2k would get me. 

As for my house, (excluding the basement) the first and second floor have about 2200 sq feet. The floor plan is fairly open with a walkway on the second floor visible from the first floor kitchen. I'd like to put the pellet stove where I currently have a zero clearance gas log set. From what I understand I would line the 6 inch gas pipe with a 4 inch insulated pipe for the exhaust of the pellet stove.

If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thank you for your time.


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## Wilbur Feral (Oct 4, 2014)

First, make sure the stove is quiet enough for you.  Some can be noisy, but I've no idea about the Englander.  As for value, I have a Mt Vernon AE and do like it, but I don't know that I would buy another one new.  We bought this one bc my wife really liked the way it looks, and it was recommended by the dealer.  Knowing what I know now, I would shop more and consider a less expensive stove, as long as it was quiet and had a decent reputation.  Finally, watch out for poorly trained / lazy dealers, which are abundant.  "You don't need an OAK" is the first sign of trouble.  Also, ask about pellet availability and pricing of current inventory (you might get a free ton when you buy, but what does the next one cost)?

Stay away from the ultra cheap, off-brand models but otherwise do some shopping.  I'm not convinced the more expensive stoves are worth their exhorbitant premium, despite owning one.  An off-season buy of a used one from someone tired of lugging pellets is probably the best bet.


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## SwineFlue (Oct 5, 2014)

The 25EP is a 25000 BTU output (roughly 32000 BTU input) stove.   It would be equivalent to a Santa Fe and maybe a P-35, not the Mt Vernon & P61.  Aside from more heat output, the MtV and P61 offer more automation and are multi-fuel.


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## dhall28 (Oct 5, 2014)

this is all my opinion, i have very little experience with englander stoves, but I know what I like about harmans that I feel sets them apart.
The use of the ESP and room sensor probe which tells the control board the temperature of the exhaust gasses and the room temp by one degree F increments, harman has really used and taken advantage of this information that the control board receives like no other manufacture has i believe. Looks like not in the case of the 25ep but most pellet stoves only have a snap disc that tells the stove above or below a certain set temp but by how much the control board cant tell which takes away a ton of opportunities for fine tuning things.
They are a bottom fed stove which has some definitive advantages, pushing ash out of the pot and allowing very low burns with out fear of losing the fire. Bottom feed stove just have a more consistent flame.
Also harman has recommended a UPS (interruptible power supply) where the control board is protected from power surges and in the event of a power outage recognizes it is running off the ups and safely shuts down the stove keep smoke out of the house, if the power returns it will decided whether to continue running or relight based on the ESP temp. On start up after the initial feed of pellets on the newer control boards they pulse the auger motor on, not to feed pellets but to just jostle the pellets a little, they found this helped ignite the pellets slightly faster.
i could go on but there are just so many other small things i think they do well and do right i think they add up to being worth it. they are not for everyone and everyone's situation. also i am under no disillusion that they are perfect because they aren't, if they were i would not have had a job for two years fixing them. However i worked on harman, quad, enviro, country flame, bosca, breckwell, and thelins and if i had the money and it was going in my house (not a workshop or garage) i would buy a harman.


OAKs are a tool that used correctly is beneficial but like everything it has its pluses and minuses and so therefore is situational specific, so a dealer that doesn't take into account your situation on whether you need one and says you shouldn't have one is just as bad as one who says every single person needs one, no exceptions. again this is all my opinion.


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## altarr (Oct 5, 2014)

you are probably on the verge of a flamewar (haha) but as someone who has owned both, I would like to give you my experience with them....

everything dhall28 has said I pretty much agree with. Harman burns everything and anything I put in there. Period. It burns it cleanly too.

The stove has several features which far and away exceed anything on the Englander. The simple fact that the stove will light and extinguish itself based on a temperature you set it a significant pellet saving feature. 

Daily maintenance is an absolute breeze, so is monthly (one ton) maintenance. It REALLY could not be easier.

Now the Englander (at least the two I had).

Yes, the service is great...once you get to talk to someone. I am aware that people who work for this company are active contributors to this forum and that is fantastic. I have spoken with one of them and he has troubleshot my englander stove...he was great at it. But here is the issue. During the heating season they are SLAMMED. Part of the reason is staffing, the other part of the reason is that these things are always broken.  When you buy a Harman, chances are you are purchasing through a local dealer and your warranty will cover in home service. Even when the warranty is over, you always have the choice of having someone knowledgeable with your stove to come and fix it. With englander, you just dont get that. 

The overall construction of the englander stoves is troublesome as well. The way you access the heat exchanger does not lend itself to easy (or at all) cleaning. This leads to extreme air flow issues. Air flow issues lead to dirty burns. Dirty burns means little heat and cold nights. No amount of attention or work can really overcome this design flaw. With the englander I was doing the equivalent of a harman monthly cleaning EVERY SINGLE DAY. Even then the stove would be burning dirty within 24 hours. This wasnt just a single stove either, this problem was across both of my englander stoves. 

In the end, did the englanders save me money over oil? sure. but they also caused 2 chimney fires, constant aggravation, blew through bags of pellets, an ash pan fire (which almost killed my pregnant wife one morning at 3am) etc etc. Switching to pellets with the englander was just way too much work/effort for the return they gave me. When I would show people the stove and answer their questions truthfully, not too many people were enthused at the work required to save money on oil. When I show them my harman, they ask for the dealers number. 

Bottom line. I have owned three pellet stoves in 4 years. If I had owned the Harman first, I would still be on number 1. That is over 4k worth of pellet stoves that I have simply replaced. 

If you cant buy the harman this year, save your money until you can. You may have an ok experience in the end with the englander, but I promise you, your experience will be an absolute dream with harman.


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## alternativeheat (Oct 5, 2014)

Even within the Harman line the P series excels at easy cleaning. Who wants nightmares and a cold house when your stove conks out cause it's stuffed up ? The Harman P doesn't pug up to begin with. Sat morning is my weekly cleaning day which depending on pellets used might be every other sat morning. It's a matter of just brushing down the firebox, vac out, dump the ash pan. There are a couple of access hatches to remove and vac out ( real easy to get to right in the ash door chamber. I read in here about stoves with trapped ash that won't run or lazy flames from bad draft because of ash in some remote place you can't get at, dragging stoves outside, blowing them out. Not with a P series Harman, you don't need to do any of that. No, my Sat routine I have down to about ten minutes after shut down, then it's back on again. All stoves make heat when they are running right but not all run right and some need super bunches of attention to keep them running in the first place. Still with all that said,  I can't speak for or against Englanders, never used one.


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## Phoenix Hatchling (Oct 5, 2014)

Harman for me was the value choice, simply for its low maintenance and ease of use. As others have stated, they are well thought out, simple to work our clean, very well built, and aesthetically pleasing. A simple rap of knuckles on some less expensive models, and fit and finish comparisons will lead to a more focused choice. Love my Harman, and glad I made the choice I did!


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## Jason845845 (Oct 5, 2014)

I have just started using my Englander 25-ep.  I love the heat it puts out, but I can already see the cleaning is going to be a daily task.  I am already considering getting a p43 next summer, however, I have seen Mike from ESW answering tech questions on Thanksgiving day, which is something you will not get from Harman.  

A new Mercedes will get you to work and back, but so will a 1996 Toyota Corolla.  It's up to you to decide what is important as far as initial investment vs. ongoing maintenance.


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## Phoenix Hatchling (Oct 5, 2014)

Jason845845 said:


> I have just started using my Englander 25-ep.  I love the heat it puts out, but I can already see the cleaning is going to be a daily task.  I am already considering getting a p43 next summer, however, I have seen Mike from ESW answering tech questions on Thanksgiving day, which is something you will not get from Harman.
> 
> A new Mercedes will get you to work and back, but so will a 1996 Toyota Corolla.  It's up to you to decide what is important as far as initial investment vs. ongoing maintenance.



If you want to compare new to used, get the used Mercedes (Harman). That would give infinitely higher value!


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## dlehneman (Oct 5, 2014)

I now have 2 Enganders, a PAH and an EP. I was strongly considering a Harmon for my second stove but with how good my PAH has been to me, and the fact the Harmon would've really stretched my budget, I picked up a used EP at an incredible value. Keep in mind I paid under $1000 each for them. In general I am very happy with them and have no problems recommending them to most people (depending on their situation). Here is my input from my experience with these 2 stoves:
Pros:
Price! They put out great heat and are very reliable. Getting replacement parts is easy, even Lowe's and Home Depot sell them, although I haven't had the need. They will control the heat very accurately when you use them with a t-stat in a central location of your house. They can be run in on/off mode (auto ignite and extinguish) or high/low mode, so plenty versatile.
Cons:
Cleaning...if you don't want to be hands on, these are not the stoves for you. I clean daily, now I don't have to (I'm obsessed with it being clean and running perfect) but you certainly wouldn't want to ignore it for days on end or longer. I guarantee that the vast majority of people who have problems with them simply aren't taking care of them. The daily cleaning only takes about 5 minutes though and keeps it running great. The thorough cleanings are maybe once every 4-6 weeks when your in peak heating season. Some of the areas that need to be cleaned when you do the thorough cleaning are not easy to access.
Noise: I wish they were quieter, and I'm sure this is an area where more expensive stoves excel.

As far as value goes, I think it's hard to dispute that Englander is a great value (at least when purchased at a decent price, such as from AM/FM energy). The used Harman's that I looked at were all $2500 or more, making them still 2.5 times what I paid for my stoves! Whether that's worth it to you or not, is probably more dependent on your finances and expectations than anything. I will say that if budget were no issue, I would most likely buy a Harman to reduce noise and time spend cleaning.


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## allied35 (Oct 5, 2014)

What about an enviro m55? I bought one three years ago for $2600 it burns everything you throw at it, I only clean it once a week. Runs on a thermostat. I do not have experience with Harmon's or englanders but my inlaws have a MtV and it seems like a lot of work to keep it clean, they clean the fire box out at least twice a day. They do burn 100% corn though...

Good luck!


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## Jason845845 (Oct 5, 2014)

Phoenix Hatchling said:


> If you want to compare new to used, get the used Mercedes (Harman). That would give infinitely higher value!



I would never buy either of those used and out of warranty


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## Harvey Schneider (Oct 5, 2014)

I own both a Quad MVAE and an England 25PDVC. 

The MVAE heats the first floor of my house. It is the quietest pellet stove on the market, efficient (86%), low maintanence, and esthetically pleasing. I have no regrets about my choice or the cost of the stove.

Based on my experience with the MVAE I decided that I should get a second pellet stove to heat my basement workshop. The shop was too cold for me to work in during the winter. I purchased a used (actually badly abused) England and totally cleaned and rebuilt it. The 25 PDVC does exactly what I wanted. It adequately heats my workshop. It needs manual cleaning every time I light it, and is much louder than my MVAE, but those are both acceptable in my workshop. I have no regrets with my bargain basement pellet stove. At $300, it cost me more in installation materials than the cost of the stove itself.

My point is that each of these stoves has it's place and if you choose the right stove for the place, you will be happy with it.

I remember an economic analysis that showed that the two most cost effective cars (total cost of ownership) were the VW bug and the Rolls Royce. Obviously there is more to making a purchase decision than just cost effectiveness.


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## SKOAL MAN (Oct 5, 2014)

Do your self a favor, with the $4500 you would spend on a Harman.  Go out and buy the 2200 sqft Englander new $1500, and spend the other $3000 on a mini split heat pump! Use the heat pump until it gets too cold and use the pellet stove when you want some quick heat or its too cold for the mini split to work efficiently!


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## refiners_fire (Oct 5, 2014)

altarr said:


> In the end, did the englanders save me money over oil? sure. but they also caused 2 chimney fires, constant aggravation, blew through bags of pellets, an ash pan fire (which almost killed my pregnant wife one morning at 3am) etc etc. Switching to pellets with the englander was just way too much work/effort for the return they gave me. When I would show people the stove and answer their questions truthfully, not too many people were enthused at the work required to save money on oil. When I show them my harman, they ask for the dealers number.
> 
> Bottom line. I have owned three pellet stoves in 4 years. If I had owned the Harman first, I would still be on number 1. That is over 4k worth of pellet stoves that I have simply replaced.
> 
> If you cant buy the harman this year, save your money until you can. You may have an ok experience in the end with the englander, but I promise you, your experience will be an absolute dream with harman.




Thank you for the reply. This is one of the best explanations of the value proposition that I've read, to date. I will be saving up and investing in a Harman when the time comes.


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## refiners_fire (Oct 5, 2014)

allied35 said:


> What about an enviro m55? I bought one three years ago for $2600 it burns everything you throw at it, I only clean it once a week. Runs on a thermostat. I do not have experience with Harmon's or englanders but my inlaws have a MtV and it seems like a lot of work to keep it clean, they clean the fire box out at least twice a day. They do burn 100% corn though...
> 
> Good luck!


Thank you for your insight. I hadn't considered an enviro stove. I will be doing some additional research on the enviro brand!


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## festerw (Oct 5, 2014)

I've run an Englander 25pdvc for 7 years now and it's run 24/7 all winter.  Yes I've replaced a few motors but they were all still running just much noisier than I thought they should be.

They aren't the cleanest or quietest stoves but they'll put out heat and save money over oil.  Cleaning isn't terrible, I scrape out the pot when I refill the hopper with the stove still running and once a week take about 20 minutes to give it a good vacuum, clean out the vent every month or so.  It uses about a bag a day to keep my 1200 square feet around 70-80 degrees in pretty much any outdoor temperature.

If I were buying a new stove it would be another Englander because I can't justify another $2k for a stove that will do the same thing.


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## xSpecBx (Oct 5, 2014)

Keep in mind what dealers you have local to you as well as service technicians. You dont want to have a problem and have no way of getting parts or service.


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## Peterfield (Oct 5, 2014)

refiners_fire said:


> Thank you for your insight. I hadn't considered an enviro stove. I will be doing some additional research on the enviro brand!



I just shopped for stoves and had it narrowed down between an Enviro M55 insert versus the Harman Accentra 52i insert.  Very close in capabilities, each with its own idiosyncrasies (bottom feeder versus top; burn pot auger versus not).  Liked them both but the the price of the 52i was considerably less than the Enviro so that and a few other reasons, I went with the Harman.


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## SKOAL MAN (Oct 5, 2014)

altarr said:


> you are probably on the verge of a flamewar (haha) but as someone who has owned both, I would like to give you my experience with them....
> 
> everything dhall28 has said I pretty much agree with. Harman burns everything and anything I put in there. Period. It burns it cleanly too.
> 
> ...


Never saw a stove cause a chimney fire, neglect causes a chimney fire!  If I had 2 chimney fires and a stove almost killed my wife and unborn child the first thing I wouldn't do is go out and buy another pellet stove!  I'm a redneck but this is even beyond my logic! WOW!!


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## stillersnut (Oct 5, 2014)

Regular  maintenance will help eliminate the worry of a chimney fire. I've owned the "high end $$" stoves, but Love my budget Englander PAH.  Its easy to clean, parts are easy to get, a no frills utilitarian heat.


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## Harvey Schneider (Oct 5, 2014)

stillersnut said:


> Regular maintenance will help eliminate the worry of a chimney fire.



Burning stove at a low simmer creates creosote. Even with a clean, well maintained stove you can put lots of creosote up the vent.


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## stillersnut (Oct 5, 2014)

It's been my experience that a well  matained  and clean stove has the ability to run, even at low temps, without creosote build up. Why else are we given the ability to run at low settings?


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## Harvey Schneider (Oct 5, 2014)

stillersnut said:


> It's been my experience that a well  matained  and clean stove has the ability to run, even at low temps, without creosote build up. Why else are we given the ability to run at low settings?


Burning wood at low temperatures makes creosote. That's just the way wood is.


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## stillersnut (Oct 5, 2014)

Heating with wood for decades, it's been my experience that, unseasoned wood, lack of air for combustion, and cool flue temps cause creosote build up. Since pellets are tumble dried & moisture controlled you've elemenated two causes, this leaves air/combustion. Which can be greatly reduced or eliminated with a clean stove.


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## Harvey Schneider (Oct 5, 2014)

stillersnut said:


> Which can be greatly reduced


I agree with that. 
I also know that when I run my 25PDVC at idle the entire inside of the fire box is coated with creosote and tar. 
I don't have that problem with the MVAE because I always run it at high flame with the thermostat doing on/off cycles. I tried running auto, where the controls vary the flame size, but that gets the fire box and glass dirty. To me that is clear evidence that low flame burns are generating more creosote and tars.
Some stoves are better than others at providing a clean burn, but my experience suggests that how you run a stove is also important.
YMMV


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## altarr (Oct 5, 2014)

SKOAL MAN said:


> Never saw a stove cause a chimney fire, neglect causes a chimney fire!  If I had 2 chimney fires and a stove almost killed my wife and unborn child the first thing I wouldn't do is go out and buy another pellet stove!  I'm a redneck but this is even beyond my logic! WOW!!



when your stove is not burning properly ,you generate a lot of creosote. When your stove cannot be cleaned well due to its flawed design, you end up with bad burns and chimney fires.

my stoves are always professionally cleaned TWICE a year (mid-season and start of season) and in the englanders case, a DAILY FULL cleaning or it wouldnt run at all, so I was forced to clean it.

Now, I certainly never bought another englander, I did go and buy a harman and I havent looked back. the difference in the cleanliness of the stove/pipe is astounding.


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## Dustin (Oct 6, 2014)

I guess I just don't share the same negative experience of a daily full cleaning? 

My USED and abused 25pdvc runs just dandy without daily full cleanings. Glass stays clean too. All it took was a little LBA adjustment and its off to the races.

Chews through pellets? I guess I don't know what a harman burns, but, with as little as I'm using.. I can't complain. 

Yes, it's loud, but I paid 500 bucks for it. 

To the OP, get what you're comfortable with. 


If you're doing it to save some money, short term, cheaper might not be a bad idea. Get the hang of a pellet stove for a small investment and see if you even like it. That's how I approached wood burning when I first got into it. Went cheap, liked it, now I have all the fancy stuff. 

If you know you're gonna heat with pellets forever, and living in the house you're gonna stay in forever, maybe go with the big fancy one. 

Once I move into a home I know I'll be in long term, I will probably join the "club" and by something with more features then my englander. But for now, while saving for a bigger home.. My Englander will do the job just fine 


It's all about budget and the bottom dollar. How much do you really wanna sink into this?


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## Dustin (Oct 6, 2014)

https://www.hearth.com/talk/index.php?threads/Harman-P35i---Dirty-Glass.82935/


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## AddictiveStew (Oct 6, 2014)

altarr said:


> you are probably on the verge of a flamewar (haha) but as someone who has owned both, I would like to give you my experience with them....
> 
> everything dhall28 has said I pretty much agree with. Harman burns everything and anything I put in there. Period. It burns it cleanly too.
> 
> ...



This is ABSOLUTELY correct. I owned an Englander and it was an absolute nightmare. I could never get the perfect burn. I was cleaning it day in and day out. It does the job but it requires an incredible amount of maintenance. With my new job I have to travel more and I needed something that the wife could just dump pellets in and forget it. The Harman IS that. It runs GREAT all the time and the monthly cleaning IMO is even easier than the daily Englander cleaning was. CRAZY. I will never go back, I love my P43!


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## RKS130 (Oct 6, 2014)

refiners_fire said:


> I've been reading lots on this forum and have found many good tips.
> 
> Here's the deal, I'm looking at a pellet stove for the house. From what I can tell, Englander stoves are fairly rugged and provide incredible service after the sale - and seem to be second to none in the industry for their service. The more expensive stoves are perhaps built better (maybe?), depending on the model - could be all cast iron, and might be a bit prettier but may not have the service. On the other hand, it seems both Englander stoves and the more expensive ones have their "issues."
> 
> ...




To me, a big issue is the maintenance required.  A friend has a stove - no idea which manufacturer - but he has to clean it virtually daily.  My Harman is quite happy with once a week, and at that a light cleaning every other week, and removing the baffles and a deeper cleaning on the off weeks.

Don't get me wrong.  I happen to enjoy cleaning my stove and find it relaxing.  BUT....I still don't want to do it every day, nor do I have the time.  So, over the life of the stove, the maintenance schedule would loom large for me.  Just sayin.


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## bill3rail (Oct 6, 2014)

refiners_fire said:


> I've seen lots of positive and negative comments on all brands of stoves and would like to know what the additional $2k would get me.



It will be that much longer before your pellet stove investment is paying for itself!  Either stove will pay for itself, $1500.00 or $3000.00.  

The maintenance is not bad at all, the dust from some brands of pellets can be insane so a pellet vacuum will reduce that.  I would buy another England's if I needed it.  

My main reason was to save on oil usage, and I have succeeded amazingly well on that.

Bill
England's Stove owner and happy.


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## AddictiveStew (Oct 6, 2014)

I guess the real question is how much of your own personal time would you like to spend on cleaning your stove and what is that worth to you? Also, do you have another individual in the house that is willing to spend that time when you are out of town? To keep my 25EP running daily, I had to pretty much disassemble the whole stove and vacuum out every nook and cranny. This took me roughly 20 min per day. If I left it go for even one day, I would have a bad burn and soot and all kinds of issues.


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## moey (Oct 6, 2014)

If I had to choose again I would pick a Englander. I was unaware of the warranty policies of Quads/Harmans Ive never had warranty work done but I despise the way they have their warranty system setup. I would choose Englander over the others for this reason alone.


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## Polar Bear (Oct 6, 2014)

altarr said:


> In the end, did the englanders save me money over oil? sure. but they also caused 2 chimney fires, constant aggravation, blew through bags of pellets, an ash pan fire (which almost killed my pregnant wife one morning at 3am) etc etc.



I don't understand how you have 2 chimney fires in 4 years. Something isn't passing the sniff test here.


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## Harvey Schneider (Oct 6, 2014)

Polar Bear said:


> I don't understand how you have 2 chimney fires in 4 years. Something isn't passing the sniff test here.


Perhaps he didn't perform the sniff test.


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## MCPO (Oct 6, 2014)

"Altarr`s"  bizzare  issues (chimney fires especially) had to be caused by either a faulty installation or his lack of proper maintenance.  Why he`s blaming the stove is a mystery to me.
I have many friends with low end Englander pellet stoves  including myself and none of us ever experienced anything like he claims.
 I have a Harman too . Sure the Harman is a better stove but it had ought to be since it does indeed cost at least  twice as much .
Sure you get what you pay for as a rule , and then again sometimes you don`t.  The Englander does in fact give you your money`s worth and sometimes more and is almost always seen as a real value for many of us who have a hard time with the idea of spending multiple thousand on a space heater that adds little to no value to a home.
Isn`t it nice we all have our opinions , likes , and dislikes?
 Personally I think the best answer was to buy the Englander instead of the Harman and put the savings into a heat pump.


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## refiners_fire (Oct 6, 2014)

AddictiveStew said:


> This is ABSOLUTELY correct. I owned an Englander and it was an absolute nightmare. I could never get the perfect burn. I was cleaning it day in and day out. It does the job but it requires an incredible amount of maintenance. With my new job I have to travel more and I needed something that the wife could just dump pellets in and forget it. The Harman IS that. It runs GREAT all the time and the monthly cleaning IMO is even easier than the daily Englander cleaning was. CRAZY. I will never go back, I love my P43!



My situation is similar. I need something simple that my wife can use...or it will never be used (i.e. Maintained) while I'm away on business. The wife is already plenty busy...plus she might not be happy with me if i turned her into Cinderella


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## refiners_fire (Oct 6, 2014)

moey said:


> If I had to choose again I would pick a Englander. I was unaware of the warranty policies of Quads/Harmans Ive never had warranty work done but I despise the way they have their warranty system setup. I would choose Englander over the others for this reason alone.



I'm intrigued. Please tell me more. If you've never had warranty work done, what was the problem?


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## lessoil (Oct 7, 2014)

dlehneman said:


> I now have 2 Enganders, a PAH and an EP. I was strongly considering a Harmon for my second stove but with how good my PAH has been to me, and the fact the Harmon would've really stretched my budget, I picked up a used EP at an incredible value. Keep in mind I paid under $1000 each for them. In general I am very happy with them and have no problems recommending them to most people (depending on their situation). Here is my input from my experience with these 2 stoves:
> Pros:
> Price! They put out great heat and are very reliable. Getting replacement parts is easy, even Lowe's and Home Depot sell them, although I haven't had the need. They will control the heat very accurately when you use them with a t-stat in a central location of your house. They can be run in on/off mode (auto ignite and extinguish) or high/low mode, so plenty versatile.
> Cons:
> ...



Well stated!

We have a P61 in the living room (original stove) and added an Englander 25-pdvc (basement)
Both stoves heat well.
I like the large ash pan on the P61.
P61 cleaning is very easy. 
P61 will eat almost anything you feed it.

Englander
Good price
Excellent service
Cleaning-I do not find it to be difficult but has to be done more often (no ash pan, every 2-3 days)
Set stove up in correct mode and the heat output is very good.

With the setup we have, our oil usage has dropped from 950 gal to 300/yr (Hot Water) so no complaints here!


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## Arti (Oct 7, 2014)

How about a 3 month payback...?

http://www.lowes.com/pd_45894-76845...0a70-fb42-50a9-830c-000071a92cfe&kpid=1184101


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## apandori (Oct 7, 2014)

Arti said:


> How about a 3 month payback...?
> 
> http://www.lowes.com/pd_45894-76845...0a70-fb42-50a9-830c-000071a92cfe&kpid=1184101



Even better at amfmenergy.com


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## refiners_fire (Oct 7, 2014)

lessoil said:


> Well stated!
> 
> We have a P61 in the living room (original stove) and added an Englander 25-pdvc (basement)
> Both stoves heat well.
> ...




Few questions for you here: 
What was the reason you chose the P61 first? 
You mention the P61 will eat almost anything, but does this imply that the Englander won't eat anything?
You mention the "Excellent service" with the Englander but you don't mention your service with Harman. Can you please explain your experience with the service on your Harman?


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## apandori (Oct 7, 2014)

I think there's two mentalities with stoves and this basically solves all the issues of which ones you can go with.

Look at the Englander as the workman's stove. You have to be somewhat mechanically inclined to use/maintain it. If you look at England Stove Works website it basically says that just in more words.

"England's Stove Works was started, and is still owned by, a family that believes strongly in a "Do It Yourself" spirit – that’s one reason you found this product at your favorite “Do It Yourself” store."

The Harmon is the "Set it and forget it" for either the busy person, or hands off I don't like touching things with motors person.

Either mentality is fine, if I had tons of money I'd probably have a Harmon. I can also do my own electric, roofing, tiling, and other home needs so I know myself having an Englander is not going to be an issue for me.

If you aren't mechanically inclined, it's probably not a good idea to buy an Englander, even though I believe they dumb it down pretty good with an instructional DVD to show you how to replace everything and clean as well.

The stoves are made just fine and put out heat. I'm sure there's some lemons with every brand but reality is if you're having massive problems with an Englander stove it could be you're just not as "Do it yourself" as you thought, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Just my 2 cents... Hate it or love it. Haha!


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## Harvey Schneider (Oct 7, 2014)

apandori said:


> If you aren't mechanically inclined, it's probably not a good idea to buy an Englander,


I agree with you. I want to add that if you are inclined to learn, it is a good place to gain experience. The videos, trouble shooting guides, and advice from this forum make it possible for almost anybody to learn to maintain an ESW stove. For somebody with a true lack of mechanical comprehension or a distain for getting his or her hands dirty, well they should buy a Harman or Quad.


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## Tonyray (Oct 7, 2014)

I bought a HarmanP61A last winter for 2 reasons..
my dealer would cover all waranty. [ 2 miles away.]
The wharehouse where he stores his skids of pellets is half mile from my house making for easy quick pickup.
Not the best reasons of course but thru using it, the ease of cleaning it, and all the great info and tips I learned here at the forum,
it wasn't long before I realized I bought one of the best if not the best Pellet stove out there..


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## moey (Oct 7, 2014)

refiners_fire said:


> I'm intrigued. Please tell me more. If you've never had warranty work done, what was the problem?



Harman has no tech support number at least without jumping through hoops. If you want tech support you have to call your dealer. That's fine if your dealer is still in business or they are not jerks. Harman provides little incentive for dealers to actually provide warranty support the cost of warranty work is part of your original purchase so once your dealer has your money wheres there incentive to help you? They get a lousy rate per hour from Harman and can make better money doing other things. Englander you call them on the phone and they diagnose it with you they will overnight the part to you if they are able to diagnose it.Of course some folks would consider that a drawback I see it as a plus. 

If your dealer goes bellyup good luck getting your stove fixed under warranty.

That is why there is so much discussion about finding a good dealer. Most stove shops come and go sure some have been around a while. Around me I can think of 2 that went under in the past couple years.


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## dlehneman (Oct 7, 2014)

Personally I would much rather fix my stove myself (if necessary) then rely on someone else to help me. If it breaks down after business hours (which Murphy's law says it will), then you're probably out of luck and heat until it's convenient for them. Granted if a part fails and I don't have it on hand, I'm still out of luck, but if you know your stove well enough, you may be able to come up with a temporary fix until you can get the part.
Clearly this is more of a personality trait then a plus or minus for the stove you choose, but another thing to consider when shopping for a stove that suits you. To me needing to rely on a dealer would be a negative, but probably not the case for most people.


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## tjnamtiw (Oct 7, 2014)

SKOAL MAN said:


> Never saw a stove cause a chimney fire, neglect causes a chimney fire!  If I had 2 chimney fires and a stove almost killed my wife and unborn child the first thing I wouldn't do is go out and buy another pellet stove!  I'm a redneck but this is even beyond my logic! WOW!!


Amen to that!  It pretty well sums up a lame attempt at glorifying Harman's.  Yes, they are apparently well made stoves but they aren't the elixir of all things pellet oriented.  You'll see plenty of questions throughout the winter about them too.  The real question that should be asked of ANYONE buying a pellet stove is 'are you ready to accept the fact that you must ROUTINELY service/clean/troubleshoot the appliance when IT needs it and not when YOU feel like it?' and 'do you realize that this is a SPACE HEATER?'.


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## AddictiveStew (Oct 7, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> Amen to that!  It pretty well sums up a lame attempt at glorifying Harman's.  Yes, they are apparently well made stoves but they aren't the elixir of all things pellet oriented.  You'll see plenty of questions throughout the winter about them too.  The real question that should be asked of ANYONE buying a pellet stove is 'are you ready to accept the fact that you must ROUTINELY service/clean/troubleshoot the appliance when IT needs it and not when YOU feel like it?' and 'do you realize that this is a SPACE HEATER?'.



I'll glorify my Harman any day of the week compared to my Englander. I didn't mind the constant maintenance of the Englander but I didn't have time for it. Not to mention that the Harman seems to be much more efficient and create far less ash. It burns the pellet until there is nothing left! But regardless, I absolutely agree that a pellet stove is all about the maintenance and you need to commit to putting the time in for upkeep. I actually look forward to firing up the pellet stove. It's a nice little hobby.


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## tjnamtiw (Oct 7, 2014)

refiners_fire said:


> My situation is similar. I need something simple that my wife can use...or it will never be used (i.e. Maintained) while I'm away on business. The wife is already plenty busy...plus she might not be happy with me if i turned her into Cinderella


Then I would consider a Quad Sante Fe, if I were you.  They haven't even been mentioned here but for 1/2 of the 'coveted' Hormoan, you get a stove that is very reliable, easy to clean about once a week or two, and just keeps working with minimal fuss.  All these people who have been suckered into plunking down big bucks for their Hormoan now have to defend the decision by getting others to join the clan.  (this last statement was meant to raise the hackles, folks, so take a deep breath).


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## moey (Oct 7, 2014)

Good example of what happens when a Harman does not work. You call your dealer and don't hear a thing. So you go on hearth.com and ask questions. 

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/need-help-with-my-harman-p61a.132202/


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## rona (Oct 7, 2014)

I've burned corn-pellets for 10 years. I talked to owners of different brands and models before deciding to go with a Harman PC-45.  Reason being it is basically a set and forget type stove that will burn either corn or wood pellets.  The only draw back I learned was the corn had to be 12% for a decent burn and the stirrers would build up with slag very fast.  The dealer didn't know the cause for that and the company rep said it was the corn we raised.  I paid extra because I wanted a stove I didn't have to babysit. I found that if I blended pellets with corn this buildup of slag took longer to develop.  My thought was if I sold it I should get a better price then if I had gone with a Box store stove.  It was advertised as a 45btu stove and after the first year I could see it was to small.  
 I had heard stories about the Quad AE which was supposed to be a 60,000 btu stove and it could also burn corn so I ordered one which arrived Nov 24th. It was installed when I was gone and  it wouldn't start when I got home. This was the beginning of one of the most frustrating experiences of my life. The good part was Harman couldn't make enough stoves and bumped their prices that fall so I was able to sell it for what it cost me a year earlier.  The bad part was nobody knew how the AEs worked and there was lots of problems. The fact that the dealer never tested the stove before he left was a pretty good indication as to his customer service . Once your check cleared it was good luck and don't call me if it doesn't work as it is to complicated for me.  By spring I had burned half a winters supply of fuel oil because the stove was down for repairs.   I was told be a service rep that if I burned pellets it would work better.   Being the stove was sold to burn corn  I felt that I was getting the short end of the stick with this stove so basically installed everything brand new  complete with updates to the board, new igniter, new wall control,new baffle board and new exh fan.    I then sold it to a fellow who was burning pellets.   Amazingly he used it for three years with no problems
   What did I learn from all this? Never buy a brand new model as usually there will be changes to be made.  Never buy anything I can't fix myself as way to many dealers disappear after the check clears.  The warranty disappears as soon as the dealer quits.  If your Harman dealer quits or dies Harman will ignore you. 
  I always read about the Bixby being a Cadillac of the stoves but very high priced. When I seen one of e-bay for half price I decided to gamble and bought one. Of course the first thing was no warranty or dealer support. After my experiences with both above premium brands I decided I have nothing to loose as for that price I could buy a extra for parts.  I have found out you could call the company and get parts direct. They also gave you software updates so we as consumers got a break as we bypassed the dealer.  It takes a little ability to hold a wrench but every part you need comes with a very good diagram and directions  to remove and replace.
  It turns out the president of this company will be looking at many years in prison for bilking people out of  their money.  But that has nothing to do with the quality of the stove.  Basically  I brought this up because everyone has their list of important items they want in a stove. I wanted one that I can start and not have to babysit it. This one holds 110 lbs of corn , I can add fuel while it is running and dump the ash while it is running. Basically push the start button, set thermo on 70 and it will run for 3 weeks nonstop as long as you add corn every couple days and dump the clinker box once a week or so.   Yeah no warranty but I don't need one.


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## lessoil (Oct 7, 2014)

refiners_fire said:


> Few questions for you here:
> What was the reason you chose the P61 first?
> You mention the P61 will eat almost anything, but does this imply that the Englander won't eat anything?
> You mention the "Excellent service" with the Englander but you don't mention your service with Harman. Can you please explain your experience with the service on your Harman?



Choosing stove
Chose the Harman after 2 months of shopping and talking to both Harman and Englander owners.
Liked the ash pan and 70 lb hopper of the Harman's vs Englander lack of ash pan which would require more frequent cleaning.
We can go around 4 weeks before ash pan needs to be emptied. 
We are heating about 1550 sq ft (2 floors) I wanted the XXV but my Wife did not. So...looked at
the model below the XXV and was concerned that it might run full bore. Went with the P61.

Eats almost anything
Our first year-2008- we burned Maine Wood Pellets (Their first year) Very Very dirty pellets. Many stove owners
were also burning MWP and were having many problems including stoves shutting down due to ash clunkers.
I would guess the Englander would have a few problems with high ash pellets.
All we had to due with the Harman was give the burn pot a quick clean while running. 3-4 times/day
MWP are much improved!!

Service
With Harman you can not call them for assistance. Have to call dealer. Our dealer has been excellent.
Englander has a Tech. Support service which has very high marks.

Was able to get the Englander in a trade. Has worked well keeping the basement warm.

Hope this helps!


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## SKOAL MAN (Oct 7, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> Amen to that!  It pretty well sums up a lame attempt at glorifying Harman's.  Yes, they are apparently well made stoves but they aren't the elixir of all things pellet oriented.  You'll see plenty of questions throughout the winter about them too.  The real question that should be asked of ANYONE buying a pellet stove is 'are you ready to accept the fact that you must ROUTINELY service/clean/troubleshoot the appliance when IT needs it and not when YOU feel like it?' and 'do you realize that this is a SPACE HEATER?'.


I've burned wood for the last 15 years with a clay lined chimney. I burned wet wood, soft wood, hard wood, skids, lumber scraps, and never had a chimney fire!  You know why?  Because I care if my house burns down and kills my family, so I get up on the roof a couple times a season and make sure my chimney is clean!  And as for having to clean out some ash a couple times a week with a shop vac, I'm used to filling a 5 gal pail every other day out of the wood stove!  The thing I like the most about my Englander is that I paid $800 for it and its very hands on. I'm the type of guy that changes my own oil and fixes my buddy's car. Some people have no problem calling a dealer to come to their house and change an auger motor or a control board, I'm not one of those people.


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## tjnamtiw (Oct 7, 2014)

SKOAL MAN said:


> I've burned wood for the last 15 years with a clay lined chimney. I burned wet wood, soft wood, hard wood, skids, lumber scraps, and never had a chimney fire!  You know why?  Because I care if my house burns down and kills my family, so I get up on the roof a couple times a season and make sure my chimney is clean!  And as for having to clean out some ash a couple times a week with a shop vac, I'm used to filling a 5 gal pail every other day out of the wood stove!  The thing I like the most about my Englander is that I paid $800 for it and its very hands on. I'm the type of guy that changes my own oil and fixes my buddy's car. Some people have no problem calling a dealer to come to their house and change an auger motor or a control board, I'm not one of those people.


You're exactly the kind of guy that is meant for a pellet stove.  How many times have we seen people come here for advice that should NEVER have been sold a stove?


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## Ctcarl (Oct 7, 2014)

Do your reseach and get the stove that fits you best.for me my harman p35i is a slice of heaven


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## moey (Oct 8, 2014)

There was some thread on here from 2-3 years ago about someone letting there Englander go about half the heating season without doing anything except dumping pellets in it. It was a pretty dirty beast but it was still burning happy. If I remember the owner finally caved because the glass had become so dirty he wanted to see the flame. I cant seem to find the thread anymore though.


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## SwineFlue (Oct 8, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> Then I would consider a Quad Sante Fe, if I were you.  They *haven't even been mentioned *here but for 1/2 of the 'coveted' Hormoan, you get a stove that is* very reliable, easy to clean *about once a week or two, and just keeps working with minimal fuss.  All these people who have been suckered into plunking down big bucks for their Hormoan now have to defend the decision by getting others to join the clan.  (this last statement was meant to raise the hackles, folks, so take a deep breath).



(post #3  )
My Quad has had just a new thermocouple, a convection blower, (and maybe an ignitor)  in 12 years.  For cleaning, I use a paintbrush to brush ash into the ashpan... no vacuum, no "scraping the burnpot" is needed.


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## SwineFlue (Oct 8, 2014)

moey said:


> There was some thread on here from 2-3 years ago about someone letting there Englander go about half the heating season without doing anything except dumping pellets in it. It was a pretty dirty beast but it was still burning happy. If I remember the owner finally caved because the glass had become so dirty he wanted to see the flame. I cant seem to find the thread anymore though.



I think I remember that.   DexterDay with his CB1200 and another member (maybe imacman???) had an informal competition for most bags without opening the stove.   Forum search doesn't seem to allow searching for threads by former members.


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## tjnamtiw (Oct 8, 2014)

SwineFlue said:


> I think I remember that.   DexterDay with his CB1200 and another member (maybe imacman???) had an informal competition for most bags without opening the stove.   Forum search doesn't seem to allow searching for threads by former members.


That sucks if we can't search former members' contributions! Those guys contributed a lot!


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## smithg (Nov 13, 2014)

I am very happy with my Englander 25PAH. Great price, burns anything, puts out the heat, runs perfect with 2-3 minutes of cleaning a day which is the same as any other stove needs imo. All stoves will need to be repaired at some point. Englanders are easy to workon, as few complicated running parts as possible, and the parts department is on top of it!


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## Wilbur Feral (Nov 13, 2014)

I must say, my Quad is cleaned only once/week.  No scraping anything on a regular basis, except once per month during the routine cleaning in which I remove the baffle, etc.  Otherwise, with the auto clean, it's just open hopper lid, dump in pellets - 80 lbs at a time to fully refill.


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## smwilliamson (Nov 14, 2014)

Here's my take on Englanders... And when I say Englanders it also includes Summers Heat and Timber Ridge as they are all the same. More pointedly, when I refer to Englanders I'm partial to the double auger designs.

Think about it...a stove designed in 1990, sold in box stores by people who know little to nothing about pellet stove to people who are buying primarily on price and convenience and will most likely install it themselves or hire someone who knows just about nothing about the stove cause they have never been trained. If there was a recipe for disaster...here it is, yet I would argue that Englander may have as many stove in service as Harman and definitely more than than most manufacturers...and they work just as well if not better than most. 

You have to understand the model though. YOU are not England's Stove Works customer...Home Depot, Lowes and other box stores are their customer. You are the end user. While you may be disconnected from service and a knowledgeable sales staff...yer not paying for it either.

Unfortunately, using this bulk sales model, Englander can't set their own pricing so there are some compromises. Not so much in parts quality cause from a manufacturing standpoint, other makers use the same parts too, but at times Englander will pump out so many stoves some of the build quality can be overlooked and you really need a trained eye to detect the issues at times.

Yes, an Englander can be loud. But so is a Harman Accentra freestanding. Harman will have a higher resale value. There are more people in the industry trained to work on Harmans too but it doesn't mean they will work on your Harman if they didn't sell it to you.

In the end, it's a metal box that burns wood pellets and throws off some heat. Hands down though, I would wager any bet that an old rusty Englander from 1998 will be around kicking out heat longer than most manufacturers will be in business.


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## smwilliamson (Nov 14, 2014)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Burning wood at low temperatures makes creosote. That's just the way wood is.


Burning wood at low temp makes creosote, burning wood at a good temp with too much or too little fuel makes creosote, burning the right amount of wood at the right temp with too much or too little air makes creosote. Actually all of these instances create smoke, which if it condenses, causes creosote. All of which are rare in pellet stoves but not terribly uncommon.


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## smwilliamson (Nov 14, 2014)

My last word on this...

The best value is a used stove. I regularly find Lopi Yankees for under 1k. The Lopi Pioneer may be the best built small stove of all time. It's wicked simple to operate, very quiet, easy to maintain, low cost parts...also goes by the name Avalon Newport. Yeah, Harman will burn forever without asking much from you but they aren't without problems either. Gummy stove, warped burn pots, sticky controls, streaky designs on glass, failed igniters year after year, and not to mention....terribly inefficient in emissions if run too long between cleanings. But, if you must hold them to the Mercedes standard...I owned a Mercedes, operatives word "owned", couldn't wait to get rid of it. Though in full disclosure, I have a Harman P61 that never dies and just keeps goin and goin but it's from 1996 or so, the golden age of pellet stoves.


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## ad356 (Nov 14, 2014)

i have serviced my harman twice myself and it seems pretty simple. i actually have a great dealer locally but i dont want to pay him to fix the stove. i have had two small failures in 3 seasons of running it but it may have been my fault. a couple of years ago we had some really bad, dusty conditions, we had removed the old plaster and lath and put up drywall, the stove was running during the process so im guessing that stuff got into the bearings. the failures were the auger feed motor last year and this year the room fan motor. both were easily replaced without involving the dealer. in fact the dealer quoted me $140 for the blower, i went to a local electrical motor repair place and they sold me a brand new motor for $40. it was the motor only, and after all that's all i needed. the stove burns flawlessly and i cannot complain about build quality, it is a very nicely built stove indeed. i cant complain about heat output either. the harman seems to be the closest thing to a wood stove, it even heated my 1500 sq ft 1895 built plank construction home un-assisted during one of the coldest winters i can remember last year. temps down to -10 and even -20 for days on end, with hardly as much as a warm up during the day.


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## Bioburner (Nov 14, 2014)

Have to agree with Scott on the best deal is a used stove. The same holds true on cars too. Some of the Whits had good style and ease of use too. I have yet to find a Lopi in our area. One has been on CL now for coming on its second year 175 miles away. Woke up to -1 outside this AM and two stoves in the house perking along and the Hestia in the garage keeping it at 62 on low that has a investment of $550. Hestia had a very fast payback because it displaced propain and now eats cheap corn


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## ad356 (Nov 14, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> My last word on this...
> 
> The best value is a used stove. I regularly find Lopi Yankees for under 1k. The Lopi Pioneer may be the best built small stove of all time. It's wicked simple to operate, very quiet, easy to maintain, low cost parts...also goes by the name Avalon Newport. Yeah, Harman will burn forever without asking much from you but they aren't without problems either. Gummy stove, warped burn pots, sticky controls, streaky designs on glass, failed igniters year after year, and not to mention....terribly inefficient in emissions if run too long between cleanings. But, if you must hold them to the Mercedes standard...I owned a Mercedes, operatives word "owned", couldn't wait to get rid of it. Though in full disclosure, I have a Harman P61 that never dies and just keeps goin and goin but it's from 1996 or so, the golden age of pellet stoves.




that's kind of why i think there are advantages to my stove being a p61 not a p61a, i never have to worry about an ignitor, in fact i can have heat out of it in LESS then 5 minutes using a bernz-o-matic torch. actually my stove is considered a p61-2. i wondered if my p61 is exactly the same as a P61 from 1996 because my stove is allot newer. i bet the designs changed little or not at all. i hope to have this stove 20 years perhaps. i paid $2800 three seasons ago, and i consider that to be allot of money. really i bought the harman because i needed more heat and had a really bad experience with a ussc 5510, just a horridly designed stove that i dont think the manufacturer actually did any long term testing on before they put it on the market. the similar "king" stove is quite a bit different then the stove i had 4 years ago. i bet they changed it so many times just because of how bad it was.


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## cmptrblder (Nov 14, 2014)

Englander stoves are low cost but are built rugged, I've had two models over the years and there service seems pretty nice as well.  BUT they are a daily issue to clean and maintain, even with proper air flow you can get buildup of part burnt pellets and such, they just need a little extra care.  This is my first year using a Breckwell where it drops the pellets into the pot and I like that setup much better as the pellets keep whats in the pot stirred up.


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## tjnamtiw (Nov 14, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> Here's my take on Englanders... And when I say Englanders it also includes Summers Heat and Timber Ridge as they are all the same. More pointedly, when I refer to Englanders I'm partial to the double auger designs.
> 
> Think about it...a stove designed in 1990, sold in box stores by people who know little to nothing about pellet stove to people who are buying primarily on price and convenience and will most likely install it themselves or hire someone who knows just about nothing about the stove cause they have never been trained. If there was a recipe for disaster...here it is, yet I would argue that Englander may have as many stove in service as Harman and definitely more than than most manufacturers...and they work just as well if not better than most.
> 
> ...



Very well said and oh so true.  I'm not an Englander owner, but knowing what I know now, I'd buy four AMFMENERGY Englanders before I'd buy the ONE Harman that would result in the same bill.  Notice I DID say 'knowing what I know now' as far as troubleshooting and repairing.


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## smwilliamson (Nov 14, 2014)

ad356 said:


> that's kind of why i think there are advantages to my stove being a p61 not a p61a, i never have to worry about an ignitor, in fact i can have heat out of it in LESS then 5 minutes using a bernz-o-matic torch. actually my stove is considered a p61-2. i wondered if my p61 is exactly the same as a P61 from 1996 because my stove is allot newer. i bet the designs changed little or not at all. i hope to have this stove 20 years perhaps. i paid $2800 three seasons ago, and i consider that to be allot of money. really i bought the harman because i needed more heat and had a really bad experience with a ussc 5510, just a horridly designed stove that i dont think the manufacturer actually did any long term testing on before they put it on the market. the similar "king" stove is quite a bit different then the stove i had 4 years ago. i bet they changed it so many times just because of how bad it was.


Don't bet on it...still just as terrible


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## ad356 (Nov 14, 2014)

i know its apples and oranges but i have a country hearth cord wood stove in my barn and it actually puts out some impressive heat, of course that's a cord wood USSC stove and it's probably more difficult to screw up what basically amounts to a steel box that  burns chunks of wood, something that has been done for hundreds of years. at any rate the country hearth is a nice air-tight unit and makes a good heater for the garage. if i had bought that USSC country hearth for the house i dont think i would have been dis-appointed. i just dont think i would ever consider another one of their pellet units as long as i live. i will probably have the harman for decades and yeah it was expensive but if i have it that long, then the $$ doesnt seem that bad. if i were to sell the harman it would be if pellet prices get completely out of hand and i switch to coal. i hope prices dont continue to go up. i do remember buying pellets for $170 per ton and it wasnt that long ago either. its $80 per ton more now then it was then. YIKES


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## Shawn S (Nov 15, 2014)

I have an Englander 25-PDVC and I think it’s a great unit for the price. I hate when people give it a bad rap.

In the cold of winter last year, mine ran 24/7 quite often.

As for ash buildup, I shut the unit off and scoop out the fire-box with a metal spatula once in the morning before I leave for work and once at night.

There is room on the sides of the firebox to dump this red hot ash and quickly get the stove started again in about 5-minutes.

Then on Saturdays, I completely shut the stove down and let it cool for about an hour.

I then use my Ash Vac (Powersmith) to completely clean the firebox and the piles of ash on the sides.

No need for an ash pan or long periods of “cold time” with this method.


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## Big papa (Nov 16, 2014)

I ended up getting a harman accentra for many reasons looks,reliability, excelent craftsmanship,top of the line parts,but most of all the reason we purchased it was ease of use.try downloading the manuals on maintenance to see wich stove might be right for you hope this helps.Love my harman


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## RKS130 (Nov 16, 2014)

Big papa said:


> I ended up getting a harman accentra for many reasons looks,reliability, excelent craftsmanship,top of the line parts,but most of all the reason we purchased it was ease of use.try downloading the manuals on maintenance to see wich stove might be right for you hope this helps.Love my harman




Dittos from Croton.  

Just into my 4th season of flawless service, great heat and manageable maintenance.  I clean once a week, but only take the plates off every other week.  Might scrape the burn pot in between if the stove is cold - which is rare in the heart of the season.  

Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoy cleaning my stove and taking care of it, but I don't have the time or energy to do it every day.  Another Harman lover here.


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