# Cottage Floor Help



## 1750 (Oct 9, 2013)

I know we have some knowledgeable folks here, and was hoping to take advantage of the collective wisdom.

I've just finished building a cottage and am really struggling with the flooring.   It's close to Lake Michigan, and the relative humidity is always 50% - 80%.    We keep the place open when we are there and closed up when we aren't.  We don't have AC, and keep the heat about 40F during the winter.  

The floors are 3/4" maple, and within two months of installation started cupping and even buckling in some places.  They are a mess.

My neighbors all have solid wood flooring, no AC or dehumidifiers, and have not had a single problem.   I've got a dehumidifier in there now, but am looking for a long-term solution.    I was thinking now that they have swollen up, if I go back and cut additional expansion gaps along the edges, the buckling would likely settle down. 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


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## jebatty (Oct 10, 2013)

I sense your disappointment, and I don't know of a fix. My first thought is whether or not you allowed the wood flooring planks to equalize with your environment before installing them. Second thought is whether or not the flooring was properly dried in the first place. In my experience, and I have installed up to 18" wide solid white pine plank flooring, is to do the install in the winter (or when the humidity generally is the lowest), let the planks sit for about 2-4 weeks on stickers in the area where they are to be installed to equalize with the ambient moisture, then install. I've put in 3 wood floors in our house, same procedure, and no problem with any of them.

The time usually that I see cupping is when a board which is flat to begin with is ripped into two boards. That changes the internal stresses within the board which were stable to begin with but now are not, and cupping or other warping can result.


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## gzecc (Oct 10, 2013)

A moisture meter may give you some insight.


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## Retired Guy (Oct 10, 2013)

Vapor barrier under the flooring? Crawl space or cellar? I have seen some properly installed wood floors exhibit minor cupping when the indoor temp. drops close to 30F.


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## 1750 (Oct 10, 2013)

jebatty said:


> I sense your disappointment, and I don't know of a fix. My first thought is whether or not you allowed the wood flooring planks to equalize with your environment before installing them. Second thought is whether or not the flooring was properly dried in the first place. In my experience, and I have installed up to 18" wide solid white pine plank flooring, is to do the install in the winter (or when the humidity generally is the lowest), let the planks sit for about 2-4 weeks on stickers in the area where they are to be installed to equalize with the ambient moisture, then install. I've put in 3 wood floors in our house, same procedure, and no problem with any of them.
> 
> The time usually that I see cupping is when a board which is flat to begin with is ripped into two boards. That changes the internal stresses within the board which were stable to begin with but now are not, and cupping or other warping can result.


 .
Yes, they were installed during the winter, but I don't know how long they were acclimated.   The installer had a moisture meter and said both the maple and the subfloor was very dry.   The manufacturer (Milstead) sent out an "independent investigator" who said the fault was mine for not maintaining relative humidity between 35-55%.  The site is along the lakeshore and the humidity is always quite high (50-80%).   If I had known we had to maintain humidity so closely,  we would have never used this type of floor.   

At this point, I'm thinking about pulling them up and reinstalling them with new gaps now that everything is acclimated.   I can live with the cupping, but the buckling really is driving me crazy .


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## MDFisherman (Oct 10, 2013)

1750 said:


> .
> Yes, they were installed during the winter, but I don't know how long they were acclimated.   The installer had a moisture meter and said both the maple and the subfloor was very dry.   The manufacturer (Milstead) sent out an "independent investigator" who said the fault was mine for not maintaining relative humidity between 35-55%.  The site is along the lakeshore and the humidity is always quite high (50-80%).   If I had known we had to maintain humidity so closely,  we would have never used this type of floor.
> 
> At this point, I'm thinking about pulling them up and reinstalling them with new gaps now that everything is acclimated.   I can live with the cupping, but the buckling really is driving me crazy .


 

Did you leave a large enough gap from the floor to the wall to allow the floor to expand?


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## 1750 (Oct 10, 2013)

gzecc said:


> A moisture meter may give you some insight.


At the time the inspector was there he said the RH was 61% in the house.  9% in the subfloor and 7% in the hardwood.


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## 1750 (Oct 10, 2013)

Retired Guy said:


> Vapor barrier under the flooring? Crawl space or cellar? I have seen some properly installed wood floors exhibit minor cupping when the indoor temp. drops close to 30F.


Roofing felt as vapor barrier.  Full walk-out basement, insulated and finished.   The interior temp has never been below 42F.

My understanding is that the cupping is related to moisture, as is the buckling.


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## 1750 (Oct 10, 2013)

MDFisherman said:


> Did you leave a large enough gap from the floor to the wall to allow the floor to expand?


I didn't install the floor myself, but the guy who did says he left 1/2 inch, which the inspector said is standard.  Obviously, the floor has swollen and eaten up that gap.   I'm wondering if I reinstall now, with everything acclimated to the humid coastal area, and leave the gap, if things will be more stable.  The one room where the buckling floor actually "broke" the floor is now flat as a pancake  (it was amazing... a 5 inch wave in the floor finally unhooked the tongue and groove, and the pieces just collapsed in a pile).


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## Swedishchef (Oct 10, 2013)

Wow...it seems to be a moisture issue.

Perhaps pulling up the floor and trying another install is a good idea. It seems the wood wasn't acclimatized properly.


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## 1750 (Oct 10, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Wow...it seems to be a moisture issue.
> 
> Perhaps pulling up the floor and trying another install is a good idea. It seems the wood wasn't acclimatized properly.


Thanks.  I think that's the working plan at this point.   

Pulling out all those nails is what I dread the most.


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## Frozen Canuck (Oct 11, 2013)

I am going to guess the wood was less than 14 days in the building & all wood removed from packaging prior to install. That's problematic. The good news in a bad way is that the wood has acclimated now.

You say that site MC varies between 50 - 80% that's going to be problematic for maple or other hardwoods. Jim's pine floors will be much more accepting of this swing in MC. As well as the generally high MC content to begin with.

At inspection moisture was 61%, 9% in sub floor & 7% in hardwood. The maple flooring has no choice but to head toward that 61% with the result that you have noticed. It simply has no way to keep the MC out & it will seek equilibrium with it's surroundings. Just the way wood is.

Roofing felt is not a vapour barrier, it is a secondary membrane for asphalt roofing. Wrong product choice. So if the area below is of higher MC, unsealed concrete for example this is going to further complicate the situation as the moisture (vapour) will travel through the felt into the flooring.

You say full walkout basement, is the floor constructed of wood or a plywood overlay on concrete? The reason that I ask is that different nails would be used in either situation & the nails matter.

What to do now? As I see it until I get more info you are down to a few choices.

*Remove all flooring & replace with a more suitable product, laminate flooring will be much more forgiving in the circumstances you describe.

*Remove all flooring & re-use, if you choose this route I would suggest that you do some research into a glue together wood floor (yes I typed that right), not a glue down or a nail down. What you in your situation with a cabin that is unoccupied & allowed to go down to 42 in the winter is get your entire floor to behave as one piece of wood, shrinking & expanding with the seasons & temperatures. Then you will simply need to install thick enough baseboard & trim to accommodate the size changes. Note this is not normal wood glue but rather a glue that has a high tack (holds on to what it touches) as well as high elasticity (plenty of stretch) & a wide temperature tolerance (won't become brittle when cold, wont run like water when hot). Best to use a hardwood flooring shops glue as they make their living at this & can't afford under performing glues. BTW use different company than the installer above as your options should have been explained to you prior to buying & installing a product. Providing of course that you explained the situation at the cabin to them.

Sorry for the bad news & yes getting those nails out without damaging the flooring is a real PITA. For that job make a bench or a solid plank on two saw horses, cover the work space in foam (blue board) to protect the flooring, leave a small gap/hole for the nail to be pounded down into & be patient, this is going to take time.


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## 1750 (Oct 11, 2013)

Thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed response, FC.

The wood floor is on the main floor.  It's on traditional wooden joists.  The walkout below is carpeted.  The nails that I saw look like big staples, about 1.5 inches in length.

I agree that it's very unlikely the floor was acclimating for two weeks.  Now that it's acclimated, wouldn't the 60-80% humidity be alright if the floor is relaid?  If I create new expansion gaps along the sides, I'd hope this would  give the floor room to move.

I've looked at laminate and vinyl flooring.  My wife loves the maple, and wasn't impressed with either of the others.  I also would really struggle to throw away 800 sf of that gorgeous maple -- though absolutely realize this might be the smartest course of action.  It mystifies me that my neighbors have full thickness oak, walnut, ash, bamboo, etc in their places without incident.  No AC and no dehumidifiers.

Thanks again.  I really appreciate your (and everyone's) thoughts on this.


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## jebatty (Oct 11, 2013)

An option to consider which would allow your flooring to float. In addition to the 18" wide pine plank in our main level, nailed to the sub-floor with square head nails for aesthetic effect, I also installed the same wide pine plank flooring in our basement over a concrete floor, but I laid down DRIcore panels on the concrete, and then screwed the planks into the DRIcore without penetrating the plastic bottom on the DRIcore, leaving of course an expansion gap around the perimeter of the room. The entire plank floor now is a floating floor. It has worked perfectly, no warping, cupping, splitting, etc.


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## 1750 (Oct 11, 2013)

That's an interesting idea.  Those floors sound beautiful.  Do you think the moisture problems I'm having are coming up through the bottom?  I was sort of assuming it was just the ambient moisture that was swelling up everything.  It seems like the flooring nailed to the subfloor wouldn't be much different from your panels nailed to the DRIcore, or am I misunderstanding this somehow.   Is there any reason a softer wood, like pine, would be more forgiving of the RH changes than a hardwood?

Thanks again.


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## Frozen Canuck (Oct 11, 2013)

Ok now that I am clear that this is a main floor install & not a basement, you can proceed to salvage as much as you can. It won't be 100% so if you don't have a few boxes left over buy some before the manufacturer discontinues it. They do this regularly, just a heads up. The staples you describe are the wrong fastener, unless approved by the flooring manufacturer (doubtful). You can rent a flooring nailer from home depot & others as well as buy the nails there. Nails should penetrate the subfloor so without seeing the flooring or the subfloor you are likely looking for 2" nails for the nailer. Maple & other woods with a lot of natural variation, burls etc need more nailing per lin ft than say oak which has a longer & straighter grain. Flooring nails are ringed nails, the ring is there to hold better in the subfloor. If your uncertain about the nails & nailer off to the flooring shop you go & ask a pro. BTW do rent a pneumatic nailer as opposed to an old spring loaded one, it will save you hours of hard swinging. I will assume you have or can get a small compressor. Ditch the plastic vapour barrier as it can only trap & hold moisture against the flooring (a bad thing). Don't use an asphalt impregnated roofing felt (from your earlier post) this will slowly off gas in the home & will get worse with increasing temperature. Your also going to have to level the staple holes in the subfloor that would cause the flooring to rock back & forth (any high spots due to the demo). Biggest heads up when re installing is to always start dead straight, buy a new chalk line that will leave a crisp clear line not a wide fuzzy one that an old line leaves. If you want to make your re install easier use a standard roll of craft paper as an underlay for the flooring, it gives you a nice smooth surface & the flooring slides easily on it. At this point you really have nothing to lose by trying a re install other than your sweat. If the problem re occurs you know your buying an alternate flooring product that can better handle the wide temp & MC swings. 




1750 said:


> I agree that it's very unlikely the floor was acclimating for two weeks. Now that it's acclimated, wouldn't the 60-80% humidity be alright if the floor is relaid? If I create new expansion gaps along the sides, I'd hope this would give the floor room to move.



As above any wood product will seek equilibrium with it's surroundings once it has done that it should be dimensionally stable in that environment.



1750 said:


> It mystifies me that my neighbors have full thickness oak, walnut, ash, bamboo, etc in their places without incident. No AC and no dehumidifiers.



This is a guess on my part but the variables of occupancy & temperature when unoccupied may be a large factor, different wood species a much smaller factor. Spend a bit of time with this thought & ask them what temp they have the T stat at when unoccupied.



1750 said:


> Do you think the moisture problems I'm having are coming up through the bottom? I was sort of assuming it was just the ambient moisture that was swelling up everything.



Your correct it is the environment that the wood flooring is in.



1750 said:


> Is there any reason a softer wood, like pine, would be more forgiving of the RH changes than a hardwood?



Yes & it has to do with the cell structure of the wood, not something you can control unfortunately. Simply put softwoods can take on & release much more moisture than hardwoods while still remaining dimensionally stable.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, hope this helps.


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## 1750 (Oct 11, 2013)

Frozen Canuck said:


> Sorry for the lengthy reply, hope this helps.


You've got to be kidding!   I really want to thank you for the time and thought you put into my situation.  

I think I'm going to go ahead and reinstall and see what happens.   I think even more than the $$, the thought of throwing away 800 sq ft of that beautiful maple makes me want to take another whack at it.

Again, thanks so much to you and everyone else who took the time to respond.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 11, 2013)

See, when I read a post by Frozen Canuck such at the one above, it makes me have hope for us Canadians  Eh?!


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## 1750 (Oct 11, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> See, when I read a post by Frozen Canuck such at the one above, it makes me have hope for us Canadians  Eh?!


I used to live in Ontario -- I've always had a good feeling about denizens of the Great White North.


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## Frozen Canuck (Oct 11, 2013)

You're welcome, I hope it works out well for you. Don't get me wrong I love hardwood floors but with kids & pets laminate is my friend. Much more durable.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 11, 2013)

Frozen Canuck said:


> You're welcome, I hope it works out well for you. Don't get me wrong I love hardwood floors but with kids & pets laminate is my friend. Much more durable.


 
+100000. Hardwood is a trend but it is not practical. I have amazingly nice American Cherry hardwood on my entire main level. I now put blankets around my 1 year old's high chair because just dropping his sippy cup dents it!

Meanwhile my basement has laminate and sparks were coming off my mitre saw blade as I was cutting pieces. The aluminum oxide coating is amazing. I took a rock rake to try scratching it, not luck. And it was half the price of my hardwood!


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## Frozen Canuck (Oct 11, 2013)

Yes hardwoods are well suited to retirement. Well...until the grandkids visit that is.


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## jebatty (Oct 12, 2013)

Just to clarify, use of a product like Dricore allows the entire solid wood floor to float. The Dricore is not hard-fastened to what lies underneath it.

I think dents, scratches, wear, etc. are what is called "character" in wood. IMO use of hardwood or softwood or laminates are questions of perceived aesthetics, not of longevity. We  have kids, grandkids, dogs, and lots of wear and tear. We have a white pine dining room table built in the mid-1950's that sits a dozen people. The top is a "mess" of wear and tear, rings and stains from spilled beverages, dings from kids pounding the silverware on the table top, etc. Yet when people sit at the table, they marvel over the sheen and appearance of the worn wood. Our pine floors will outlive us and probably live the life cycle of our house, multiple generations. That's long enough.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 12, 2013)

jebatty said:


> Just to clarify, use of a product like Dricore allows the entire solid wood floor to float. The Dricore is not hard-fastened to what lies underneath it.
> 
> I think dents, scratches, wear, etc. are what is called "character" in wood. IMO use of hardwood or softwood or laminates are questions of perceived aesthetics, not of longevity. We  have kids, grandkids, dogs, and lots of wear and tear. We have a white pine dining room table built in the mid-1950's that sits a dozen people. The top is a "mess" of wear and tear, rings and stains from spilled beverages, dings from kids pounding the silverware on the table top, etc. Yet when people sit at the table, they marvel over the sheen and appearance of the worn wood. Our pine floors will outlive us and probably live the life cycle of our house, multiple generations. That's long enough.


 

You're absolutely right!. And in certain homes it fits the charm/character and is really really nice! If my house were older, victorian or colonial style, I would want a floor like that.

However, a new home (3-5 years old) with floors torn to hell are not what most people want. Floors come with a pre-installed gloss/shine. And when those are scratched to rat chit, *some* people don't like it. I know lots of people who have purchased homes and there are 2 things they do to the house upon moving in: 1- re-finish the hardwood flooring, 2- paint.  It's the same concept as a car: shiny new paint, waxed and buffed but with scratches on it.

Now if I had pine flooring, etc, I wouldn't care. I have rustic pine furniture (coffee table, end tables, etc) and they are dented all to hell, even colored on with wax crayons (that I scratched off) and I find the more dents on the table, the better it looks. But it's just not the same concept on my Cheery hardwood floors.


PS, there's a difference between dents that add character and long scratched from moving furniture, sliding chairs, etc. Especially when your floor has a dark stain.


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## EatenByLimestone (Oct 13, 2013)

My cabin is on the shores of a lake.  In April '11 there was a flood and we had 16" of water in the cabin.  I had buckling down the center of the cabin where the floor was pushed up when there wasn't anywhere else for it to expand to.  It went back down as it dried out, but it really took around 2 years to get enough air over and under it to do it.  Having the subfloor and such is working against you in this case.  

Maybe you can pull it, sticker it and let it equalize and it will flatten out again.  

Good luck.

Matt


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## 1750 (Oct 13, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> My cabin is on the shores of a lake.  In April '11 there was a flood and we had 16" of water in the cabin.  I had buckling down the center of the cabin where the floor was pushed up when there wasn't anywhere else for it to expand to.  It went back down as it dried out, but it really took around 2 years to get enough air over and under it to do it.  Having the subfloor and such is working against you in this case.
> 
> Maybe you can pull it, sticker it and let it equalize and it will flatten out again.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Matt.   That's the second time someone has used the term "sticker" in this thread.  What's that mean?

I bought a dehumidifier this week and have had it running for a few days.   The relative humidity went quickly from 65% to 50% -- which is what I set the dehumidifier at.   There was a slight improvement in the cupping -- but I bet it will take time for the wood to give up it's water.  The ceiling below the wood floor is drywalled and painted, so I'm guessing it may take quite a bit of time for this to resolve.

At this point, I'm planning on taking the floor up and reinstalling with new expansion gaps.  I think the humidity will always be on the higher side, but I'm feeling like it's mostly relative to the humidity that exists when the wood is acclimated and installed.

Thanks again.


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## EatenByLimestone (Oct 14, 2013)

Stickering is putting small pieces of wood between the floor boards to allow air to move around it.  Make sure the boards are supported on both sides by stickers so they do not warp.







The problem with running a dehumidifier is that you'll eventually turn it off and then the boards will absorb moisture again.  The best bet for the floor to last is to let the boards acclimate to the local climate.  When a tree is cut and processed into lumber, they figure a year for every inch of thickness.  If you can, you would probably be well served to pull it up and let it sit over winter if the cabin is only used seasonally.  





My flooring absorbed a lot of water when it sat under water for a few days.  It still has a few low peaks where it never went back to flat.  It took a good 2 years for it to dry out.  I have the upper surface painted but the lower side of the floor is open to air moving below the cabin.  

Matt


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## EatenByLimestone (Oct 14, 2013)

I miss that picnic table.  A friend took that pic.  When I visited the place the next day it was gone.


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## 1750 (Oct 14, 2013)

Wow, that's quite a flood.  It doesn't happen often, I hope!

I put the dehumidifier in there just to make sure I could draw down the moisture if I wanted to, and to see if it had a noticeable effect on the flooring (after a few days there wasn't much if any difference).  

Also, I found this publication from the National Wood Flooring Association that was really very helpful for me to understand this, and also quite consistent with most of what folks here said.   Here's the link in case anyone is interested: 
http://www.goldenstateflooring.com/documents/waterandwood.pdf

There's a table in the pdf that shows what woods tend to move the most with changes in moisture levels.   According to the table, maple is one of the bigger movers.   There is also a description of a situational variable common to cottages that probably really applies to me (and maybe others here, as well):

_RELATIVE HUMIDITY: When humidity increases, the effect on the wood floor can be damaging. This occurs most frequently in homes in which occupants are there for a short period of time, such as a week- end home or vacation cabin, or in rooms that are closed off (not heated) to save energy.

If air conditioning or heating is not used or is shut off, ventilation is a must even when the home is not occupied. Otherwise, the floor will expand in the high humidity, and cupping and buckling will occur. This “greenhouse effect” will be exaggerated even more when a plank floor has been installed, because wider boards react to moisture with more movement._

In addition to being able to dial in the desired RH, the dehumidifier I bought has a timer on it.  During the summer, rather than running the dehumidifier while we were away, I thought I could play around with setting the timer for a couple of hours after we leave to pump out humidity we drew in while opening the house up.   Regardless, I think the wood must be pretty well acclimated now (it's been down for about 9 months).  If I can get the floor relayed in the next couple of weeks with new expansion gaps, I think it would be in the middle of it's typical zone and should be able to expand and contract in response to typical fluctuations for the region.  I also might consider just leaving some windows open during the summer to allow the house to breathe a bit more. 

Finally, this was amazing to me:  

_GROWING BOARDS - How much can temperature and humidity affect the dimensions of a hardwood floor? Take a look at one 5-inch red oak plank board:

1) Within “normal living conditions” (say, an interior temperature of 70 degrees and a relative humidity of 40 percent), the board has a mois- ture content of 7.7 percent and is 5 inches wide.

2) If the relative humidity falls to 20 percent, the moisture content of the board will be 4.5 per- cent, and the same 5-inch board will shrink by .059 inches. Across 10 feet of flooring. that could translate to as much as 1.4 inches of shrinkage.

3) If the humidity rises to 65 percent, the board’s moisture content would be 12 percent and the same 5-inch board would expand by .079 inches. Across 10 feet of flooring, this could translate to 1.9 inches of expansion.
_
Almost 2 inches across 10 feet!  No wonder my floors are buckling....

Thanks again to everyone for your help working through this.

Mike


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## 1750 (Oct 14, 2013)

To me the biggest problem with relaying the floor is dealing with the old nails.   

Rather than pulling them all out, does anyone see a problem with just using some end cutting pliers and nipping them off?

Thanks!


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## EatenByLimestone (Oct 15, 2013)

This would depend on if they are face nailed or nailed through the tongue.  I'd probably try fitting a wide, flat bar under an end and trying to work the whole thing up.  Then tapping the nails back out from the back.  I'm not sure how it would work, I've never done it before with nice flooring, but this did work for T and G attic planking.  If you can't get in from an edge, you may have to destroy the groove of one row in the middle so you can get ahold of enough wood to pry on.

Matt


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## 1750 (Oct 15, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> This would depend on if they are face nailed or nailed through the tongue.  I'd probably try fitting a wide, flat bar under an end and trying to work the whole thing up.  Then tapping the nails back out from the back.  I'm not sure how it would work, I've never done it before with nice flooring, but this did work for T and G attic planking.  If you can't get in from an edge, you may have to destroy the groove of one row in the middle so you can get ahold of enough wood to pry on.
> 
> Matt


I'll try that.  These are staples so they don't have the rigidity of individual nails.

Thanks again.


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## RevRon (Oct 28, 2013)

Perhaps this has already been mentioned but, you say you installed the floor in the winter? Winter is typically the driest time of the year. Even if you acclimated the flooring before installing, it would still be installed at a low humidity level. Once humidity levels start to rise the flooring would have expanded and maybe causing some cupping. Typically hardwood is not installed in the winter.


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