# 752 miles in a Tesla S



## begreen (Jan 5, 2022)

In a test, Our Next Energy (ONE) put one of their battery packs in a Tesla S. It was tested on real Michigan roads in the winter. The results were exceptional - 752 miles! What this eventually means for the automotive market remains to be seen, but it is an impressive demonstration. BMW has partnered with them, so we will see what develops. 








						Homepage
					

ONE is a Michigan-born energy storage company focused on battery technologies that will accelerate the adoption of EVs and expand energy storage solutions.




					one.ai


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## stoveliker (Jan 5, 2022)

If this keeps doing that (+/- 10 pct) even after 500 charges, and cost can go down if production is scaled up, it's a game changer.


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## Max W (Jan 5, 2022)

I know next to nothing about electric car development but obviously it is great to see that milage barrier being broken in such a big way. Thinking about the future going electric I wonder what generating and grid capacities will be needed and about planning for that. We were just taking about brown outs in N.E. if a very cold winter.


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## JRHAWK9 (Jan 5, 2022)

It appears this guy liked blowing his to pieces more than driving it.  LOL


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## stoveliker (Jan 5, 2022)

I had seen mention if that video, but I have not seen it. Such a wasteful action.
Don't like it? Sell it. Even if in parts. Much can be reused.


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## Dan Freeman (Jan 5, 2022)

Don't want to bring criticism down on myself, but I imagine I will from some, but what is powering these cars in the US at this time...coal and other fossil fuels? (My local grocery store has 8 FREE electric car charging spaces for customers while they shop with a huge diesel generator powering the charging stations! "Choke on the pollution") And, since China and a limited number of other countries have most of the "ingredients" for what is needed for electric cars, aren't we just supporting them rather than us? Our rush to electric "everything" is going to hurt us since we don't have the technology or natural resources at this time. Eventually, we might get there, but we are not even close now.  We are rushing blindly into "green technology" and the elimination of fossil fuels without the technology or resources to replace them. This will only hurt us. I read someplace else, it's like closing the grocery stores before anyone has their garden planted.


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## peakbagger (Jan 5, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I had seen mention if that video, but I have not seen it. Such a wasteful action.
> Don't like it? Sell it. Even if in parts. Much can be reused.


He did part it out, what he blew up was a shell stripped of valuable parts  and no doubt he monetized the event.


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## stoveliker (Jan 5, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> Don't want to bring criticism down on myself, but I imagine I will from some, but what is powering these cars in the US at this time...coal and other fossil fuels? (My local grocery store has 8 FREE electric car charging spaces for customers while they shop with a huge diesel generator powering the charging stations! "Choke on the pollution") And, since China and a limited number of other countries have most of the "ingredients" for what is needed for electric cars, aren't we just supporting them rather than us? Our rush to electric "everything" is going to hurt us since we don't have the technology or natural resources at this time. Eventually, we might get there, but we are not even close now.  We are rushing blindly into "green technology" and the elimination of fossil fuels without the technology or resources to replace them. This will only hurt us. I read someplace else, it's like closing the grocery stores before anyone has their garden planted.



My "wow" is for the diesel generator. 

On the other hand, aren't we making things in th US with this company?

I know some materials (mostly rare earth elements for magnets) mostly come from china. But if we don't start*making* things here and now, we'll forever be behind the curve, forever paying China (Japan, Korea) for what we need in this branch...


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## Dan Freeman (Jan 5, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> My "wow" is for the diesel generator.
> 
> On the other hand, aren't we making things in th US with this company?
> 
> I know some materials (mostly rare earth elements for magnets) mostly come from china. But if we don't start*making* things here and now, we'll forever be behind the curve, forever paying China (Japan, Korea) for what we need in this branch...



We are making things here in the US with this company, but many (read: most) of the materials are imported. It is not only the rare earth elements, but also many of the components we have limited access to. I agree, we have to start somewhere, but right now, we don't have the technology or materials to switch over to electric cars and other systems as fast as many folks, local and the federal government is pushing for. We lack the ability to totally" switch over by 2025, 2030, or whenever, as many areas are already passing legislature for. We will suffer because of it.


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## stoveliker (Jan 5, 2022)

I agree. But the only way to get there is to start somewhere. More so in making stuff (which creates business incentives for making more stuff here to feed mfgs like these) than in mandating electrification right now, maybe.
That's why having a company do this is so helpful. Without starts like this, it'll never get done in the US.


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## Dan Freeman (Jan 5, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I agree. But the only way to get there is to start somewhere. More so in making stuff (which creates business incentives for making more stuff here to feed mfgs like these) than in mandating electrification right now, maybe.
> That's why having a company do this is so helpful. Without starts like this, it'll move done in the US.



Yes, we have to start, and I am not against this, but we don't have the technology or the access to the necessary raw materials to achieve this as fast as people think or the government is pushing for. Just a matter of fact. Anything else is a pipe dream. We are not going to power this country with windmills, solar and whatever else folks think any time soon. My guess is it will take 50-100 years.


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## EbS-P (Jan 5, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I had seen mention if that video, but I have not seen it. Such a wasteful action.
> Don't like it? Sell it. Even if in parts. Much can be reused.


I read everything was stripped and parted out.  It’s a real issue. If a new battery pack is 15-20k$. And the value of the car with is working battery is about that what do you do.   It’s a YouTube channel where all they do is blow stuff up.  It’s a job now I guess.  How much do you make off of 5M views in two weeks?


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## stoveliker (Jan 5, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I read everything was stripped and parted out.  It’s a real issue. If a new battery pack is 15-20k$. And the value of the car with is working battery is about that what do you do.   It’s a YouTube channel where all they do is blow stuff up.  It’s a job now I guess.  How much do you make off of 5M views in two weeks?


It's good they didn't blow *all* up. I still find the waste created for this entertainment to be offending. Most of us are here (website) because we care about efficiency and/or environment (ok, and safety). Blowing up that shell is the opposite of all these things.

Back to the original topic: I'll never by a Tesla (as I don't like to pay for brand rather than quality alone). But doing this large capacity battery, and even if expensive, having it fit in a Tesla, not the biggest car around, is a good thing.


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## begreen (Jan 5, 2022)

JRHAWK9 said:


> It appears this guy liked blowing his to pieces more than driving it.  LOL



A complete poophead IMO. Rich boy with too many toys and no regard for the environment.


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## Max W (Jan 5, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> Don't want to bring criticism down on myself, but I imagine I will from some, but what is powering these cars in the US at this time...coal and other fossil fuels? (My local grocery store has 8 FREE electric car charging spaces for customers while they shop with a huge diesel generator powering the charging stations! "Choke on the pollution") And, since China and a limited number of other countries have most of the "ingredients" for what is needed for electric cars, aren't we just supporting them rather than us? Our rush to electric "everything" is going to hurt us since we don't have the technology or natural resources at this time. Eventually, we might get there, but we are not even close now.  We are rushing blindly into "green technology" and the elimination of fossil fuels without the technology or resources to replace them. This will only hurt us. I read someplace else, it's like closing the grocery stores before anyone has their garden planted.


Yes, burning diesel for charging is ridiculous.   I do think we need to rush into green technology but not blindly.  We need to be looking down that road assessing what we have and what we will need.


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## DBoon (Jan 5, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> Don't want to bring criticism down on myself, but I imagine I will from some, but what is powering these cars in the US at this time...coal and other fossil fuels?


Well, you lost me with your first statement, so I'm just going to ignore the rest of what you said. Coal is less than 20% of US electrical generation, down from ~50% twenty years or so ago. In upstate NY, carbon-free electricity (hydro, nuclear, wind) is 85% of total electrical generation in a given year. The future is here for many of us - yes, there is more work to be done in many places. But let's get the basic facts straight.


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## Dan Freeman (Jan 5, 2022)

I guess you get lost easily. "Coal and other fossil fuels" power about 70% of the electricity in our country. Actually, coal is only used for about 10% of the energy in the US. Hydro, Nuclear, wind, etc. produces only about 21% of our energy in the US despite whatever way upstate NY is producing their power. The future may be here for many, but the power to run electric cars is still about 70% fossil fuel driven, and that is not going to change all that fast. So, Americans can feel good about their electric cars while 70% of the energy to charge them comes from fossil fuel, the same thing the rest of us put in our cars every time we stop at the gas station. So, get the basic facts right.


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## bigealta (Jan 5, 2022)

I love how the end slow mo shots were photographed. Elon Mask was pretty funny. It looked like they did a clean up and if that's the case i've got not problem with them blowing up a car. Some of the explosion shots were both beautiful and disturbingly ugly at the same time.


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## bigealta (Jan 5, 2022)

begreen said:


> In a test, Our Next Energy (ONE) put one of their battery packs in a Tesla S. It was tested on real Michigan roads in the winter. The results were exceptional - 752 miles! What this eventually means for the automotive market remains to be seen, but it is an impressive demonstration. BMW has partnered with them, so we will see what develops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good Job from the Boys in Detroit!
Let's keep this One in One piece.


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## Solarguy3500 (Jan 5, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> Don't want to bring criticism down on myself, but I imagine I will from some, but what is powering these cars in the US at this time...coal and other fossil fuels? (My local grocery store has 8 FREE electric car charging spaces for customers while they shop with a huge diesel generator powering the charging stations! "Choke on the pollution") And, since China and a limited number of other countries have most of the "ingredients" for what is needed for electric cars, aren't we just supporting them rather than us? Our rush to electric "everything" is going to hurt us since we don't have the technology or natural resources at this time. Eventually, we might get there, but we are not even close now.  We are rushing blindly into "green technology" and the elimination of fossil fuels without the technology or resources to replace them. This will only hurt us. I read someplace else, it's like closing the grocery stores before anyone has their garden planted.


That part about a diesel generator powering the charging stations doesn't sound right.

There is a bank of Tesla chargers in the parking lot of my local grocery store too, and the large pad mounted transformer feeding them could be confused for a generator at a quick glance. Are you sure it's not a transformer you're seeing? If it is in fact a generator, my guess is that it's just for backup power if the grid goes down while vehicles are being charged. It would make zero sense for a diesel generator to be the main power source for EV chargers at a grocery store parking lot, when the grid is available right there.


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## EbS-P (Jan 5, 2022)

I think the most intriguing part of this they put a 3rd party battery in.  That gives hope to an after market battery pack for used cars that are in otherwise good shape that won’t cost 15-20k$.  But again Tesla could with an over the air update say “nah we don’t like” that and disable the car.   Range is a selling point but super fast always available charging is the practical feature.  Did you ever not buy a car because the gas tank was too small?   

As a regular long haul vacationer 600-900+ miles a day I’m still needing to charge and when I get to my destination I need to charge.  So upfront cost and charging  access and speed are more important than range. 

Evan


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## Dan Freeman (Jan 5, 2022)

Solarguy3500 said:


> That part about a diesel generator powering the charging stations doesn't sound right.
> 
> There is a bank of Tesla chargers in the parking lot of my local grocery store too, and the large pad mounted transformer feeding them could be confused for a generator at a quick glance. Are you sure it's not a transformer you're seeing? If it is in fact a generator, my guess is that it's just for backup power if the grid goes down while vehicles are being charged. It would make zero sense for a diesel generator to be the main power source for EV chargers at a grocery store parking lot, when the grid is available right there.


There are two large structures they put on pads to the side of the charging station. One looks like a large metal box with lockable doors (transformer?). The other looks more like the diesel generators large grocery stores bring in when the power is out for a few days during a bad storm. That's what I am thinking the 2nd one is, but I could be wrong. Perhaps, like you mentioned, it is for backup.


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## begreen (Jan 5, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> I guess you get lost easily. "Coal and other fossil fuels" power about 70% of the electricity in our country. Actually, coal is only used for about 10% of the energy in the US. Hydro, Nuclear, wind, etc. produces only about 21% of our energy in the US despite whatever way upstate NY is producing their power. The future may be here for many, but the power to run electric cars is still about 70% fossil fuel driven, and that is not going to change all that fast. So, Americans can feel good about their electric cars while 70% of the energy to charge them comes from fossil fuel, the same thing the rest of us put in our cars every time we stop at the gas station. So, get the basic facts right.
> 
> View attachment 289202


What this shows is that we need to get working yesterday on weaning off the teat of fossil fuel. Start with ending fossil fuel subsidies and putting that money into more sustainable solutions.


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## begreen (Jan 5, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> He did part it out, what he blew up was a shell stripped of valuable parts  and no doubt he monetized the event.


At the expense of spreading micro-plastics for a usable vehicle to kingdom come. Not to mention the fuel burned to make the production.


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## Dan Freeman (Jan 5, 2022)

begreen said:


> What this shows is that we need to get working yesterday on weaning off the teat of fossil fuel. Start with ending fossil fuel subsidies and putting that money into more sustainable solutions.


I agree! I think we need to seriously accelerate, concentrate and invest in cleaner energy producing technology, so we don't put the cart before the horse.


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## ABMax24 (Jan 6, 2022)

Looks really impressive, I'd be curious what the cost is. 

Personally I think there is a market for an EV with a modest range where a removable pack could be rented to extend the range on longer journeys.

But I just want a big battery, I'll take an F350 with a 500kwh pack please.


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## stoveliker (Jan 6, 2022)

begreen said:


> At the expense of spreading micro-plastics for a usable vehicle to kingdom come. Not to mention the fuel burned to make the production.


Exactly


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## peakbagger (Jan 6, 2022)

Tesla 'bricking" cars has been a ongoing issue. Same with John Deere. Both are poster children for why  the US needs strong right to repair legislation. The reality is no one actually owns a Tesla or a John Deere as the factory or on board software can and does brick the vehicle if the owner does not use factory service.


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Jan 6, 2022)

Even if the grid is not totally green or in some areas mostly fossil fuels BEVs and PHEVs still are greener alternatives than an ICE. How does that happen if a fossil fuel is the source of the energy for both? Electric motors are much more efficient than any ICE. 

All BEVs have an mpge (miles per gallon equivalent) of well over 100 miles. So changing to a BEV instantly makes your driving 3 times as efficient.





__





						Fuel Economy of New All-Electric Vehicles
					

Fuel economy of the . 1984 to present Buyer's Guide to Fuel Efficient Cars and Trucks. Estimates of gas mileage, greenhouse gas emissions, safety ratings, and air pollution ratings for new and used cars and trucks.




					www.fueleconomy.gov
				




I don’t see ICEs ever matching that efficiency.


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## bigealta (Jan 6, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> Tesla 'bricking" cars has been a ongoing issue. Same with John Deere. Both are poster children for why  the US needs strong right to repair legislation. The reality is no one actually owns a Tesla or a John Deere as the factory or on board software can and does brick the vehicle if the owner does not use factory service.


We've seen this mindset before. GM's EV1 from the 1990's.


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## walhondingnashua (Jan 6, 2022)

I think it's pretty simple to "encourage" change in a more diverse energy production system (I know its more complicated than I will make it in reality).  Remove subsidies from any energy production/ related company (fossil fuel or alternative).  Let the consumer decide.  People want the most for their money and more control.  Individual home solar is bombing in our country and more fuel efficient transportation (EV or petroleum) sell better because that's what people want.  
Tax breaks for consumers rather than producers because consumers are what really drive the market place under real capitalism.
And finally a carbon tax.  Make alternatives "good business."  Other than obtaining the rare materials, any larger company can have the technology/ materials they want if its worth a profit to them.


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## saberbass (Jan 6, 2022)

I think it might take a while but slowly people might have 1 electric car for city/ short drives and one gas for longer and towing needs. It will take 20 years for the change over and electrical system upgrade. We are going to need more electricity generation for sure.


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## stoveliker (Jan 6, 2022)

saberbass said:


> I think it might take a while but slowly people might have 1 electric car for city/ short drives and one gas for longer and towing needs. It will take 20 years for the change over and electrical system upgrade. We are going to need more electricity generation for sure.


That is what's going to happen here. My wife needs a new car, which will be a hybrid. I don't drive much anymore, and I have a tiny (as in TINY) car. Only needed to drive me to work, but the boss decided he doesn't want to pay for the office anymore...
Once my car is done for, I'll by a plug in electric. (Current model would be a Nissan Leaf or so - which is already larger than what I have now...) 

With the spare capacity and net metering I have on my solar, I can then drive w/o fuel cost...


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## woodgeek (Jan 6, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> I guess you get lost easily. "Coal and other fossil fuels" power about 70% of the electricity in our country. Actually, coal is only used for about 10% of the energy in the US. Hydro, Nuclear, wind, etc. produces only about 21% of our energy in the US despite whatever way upstate NY is producing their power. The future may be here for many, but the power to run electric cars is still about 70% fossil fuel driven, and that is not going to change all that fast. So, Americans can feel good about their electric cars while 70% of the energy to charge them comes from fossil fuel, the same thing the rest of us put in our cars every time we stop at the gas station. So, get the basic facts right.
> 
> View attachment 289202


Dan,

Your choice of plot is misleading.  It is 'primary energy'.  If fossil fuel gets converted to electricity at 33% efficiency, it doesn't get scored by the output electricity, but by the total energy input.  If wind makes electricity at 100% eff, the fossils look 3X bigger in this chart!  And moreover, the chart is ALL energy, not just electricity....that petroleum wedge in your chart is what EVs are reducing.

The real number for electricity production is 40% renewable and nukes, 40% nat gas (much lower C intensity than oil), and 20% coal.









__





						Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
					

The major fuel/energy sources and their contribution to annual U.S. electricity generation.




					www.eia.gov
				




At the end of the day, an EV running of US average electricity already has the same CO2 emissions as a gas car getting 80 mpg, less than a third that of the average new gas car on the road.  That actually DOES make me feel pretty good...esp when my sporty Volt goes ZOOM.








						Charging An Electric Vehicle Is Far Cleaner Than Driving On Gasoline, Everywhere In America
					

New research shows just how much cleaner driving an electric vehicle is than driving on gasoline, regardless of where it charges: EVs average 80 miles per gallon emissions equivalent across the U.S. - and reach as high as 191 MPG in New York State.




					www.forbes.com
				




And that number is increasing with time.  Another factor is people keep their cars for 20 years...an EV you buy now will be running on renewable generation that hasn't been built yet.  A gas car?  It will be burning liquid coal in 2042.


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## woodgeek (Jan 6, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> We are making things here in the US with this company, but many (read: most) of the materials are imported. It is not only the rare earth elements, but also many of the components we have limited access to. I agree, we have to start somewhere, but right now, we don't have the technology or materials to switch over to electric cars and other systems as fast as many folks, local and the federal government is pushing for. We lack the ability to totally" switch over by 2025, 2030, or whenever, as many areas are already passing legislature for. We will suffer because of it.



AFAIK, no one is banning gas cars in 2025!      California has a ban on NEW gas cars in 2035.  Alarmist much?  And the way these things work.... it will either be obsolete (unneeded) by 2035, or it will be impossible (in which case it will be repealed).  It is posturing, and putting the car makers on notice.  Not the Feds coming to your house to seize your gas vehicle.  LOL.

And the raw materials in a Tesla are a small part of the sale price.  The value add is at a US factory.  They make the motors and body domestically.  The batteries are made domestically too, but I don't know if the battery materials are made in Japan or not.  I think not.


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## DBoon (Jan 6, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> "Coal and other fossil fuels" power about 70% of the electricity in our country.


The chart you reference is for total energy consumption, not energy consumed to produce electricity. 

Electricity generation by source (fuel) is here https://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_03_01_a.html. Fossil fuels are 60% of electricity production, nuclear is 19.7% and utility-scale solar, hydro, and wind is 19.4%. The balance is other. This doesn't count behind the meter solar PV generation, like my PV array. In 2010, fossil fuels were 70%. Coal was 44.7% of electricity generation in 2010 and was only 19.3% in 2020. A lot can happen in 10 years, and a lot more will happen in another 10 years.

I'm not debating that fossil fuels are not the majority of the fuel source for electricity in the US today. There are, however, huge regional differences and blanket statements that electric vehicles just consume fossil fuels in a different form are simply not true.


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## stoveliker (Jan 6, 2022)

But even if true, the efficiency and emissions of centralized power generation and electric driving beats individual ICEs I think.


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## woodgeek (Jan 7, 2022)

The carbon intensity of the US electricity supply has dropped dramatically over the last 15 years.  It would be fair to say that that is NOT due to rapid rise in wind and solar (which have gone from 3% to 12% over that period).  Rather it is due to switching from cheap coal to cheap natural gas.  The latter is both lower carbon per unit of energy AND the plants burning it are newer and more efficient.

This flood of natural gas was not expected 20-25 years ago, when it looked like nat gas production in the US had peaked and begun a slow decline.  While some of the new gas is due to fracking for gas specifically (as in western PA) most of it is a **by-product** of wells fracked for oil in the Dakotas and TX.  The drillers are making their profit on the oil fraction of what comes out of the hole, and the gas is a low value product that needs to be gotten rid of (and the grid is a convenient place to do so).  What is more, as old wells get exhausted and less 'wet' locations drilled, the ratio of gas produced per unit of oil goes UP.  

So its fair to say that the decarbonization of the grid, so far, is a side effect of the increase in domestic oil production in the last 15 years!

That said, renewables are poised to rise quickly over the next couple decades.  Their 12% barely shows up on the plot above. Wind growth has been slow and linear due to onshore siting limitations.  Utility solar (not counting rooftop as mentioned by DBoon),  is much easier and faster to install and is growing exponentially with a 40% annual growth rate, and just passed wind production on a global basis.

This growth is bc it is CHEAP, and still getting cheaper.  And bc utility solar doesn't feed through the last mile of the grid, tying large amounts of it into the grid is far easier.

The last key point here regards the doomy concerns about EV electricity demand blowing up the grid, or there being an 'electricity shortage' that EVs will exacerbate.  Nope.  New wind and solar (and gas generators) are cheap, and all three are relatively quick to build.  The utilities have been living with flat demand for kWh for 20 years, which makes it very hard to grow or change the generation mix (bc you have to retire capital).  Growing demand at the same time cheap (and nearly limitless) solar generation becomes available makes for a new growth oriented business model!  That will entail new construction. NET new jobs and new factories and new tech, rather than simply retiring a lot of old worn out infrastructure and laying off miners and plant operators.


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## salecker (Jan 7, 2022)

begreen said:


> In a test, Our Next Energy (ONE) put one of their battery packs in a Tesla S. It was tested on real Michigan roads in the winter. The results were exceptional - 752 miles! What this eventually means for the automotive market remains to be seen, but it is an impressive demonstration. BMW has partnered with them, so we will see what develops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Real winter roads don't have pavement showing and brown ditches
Do the same test in actual winter conditions and the numbers probably will be quite different. 
Wednesday for me was get the car started at -45C at 10:00 AM warm enough to drive at 11:00 AM
drive 110 miles to the city to have my dog put to sleep,appointment at 2:00 PM at the people hospital for me get to the city at 1:30 GF drops me at the hospital and takes the dog to be put to sleep,picks me up at 3:00 we do a few stops for parts and groceries and finally leave the city at 6:00 PM drive the 110 miles back home and get the car unloaded and parked and finally turned off at 9:00PM
 $57.00 gas for the day car ran continuously 23 hrs gas here is $1.549 a liter
That was a winter day,no way in hell you can do that with a Tesla.My car 2001 Pontiac Sunfire with 265,000 Km
 As much as they try to push EV as the answer they are limited in their ability to truly replace the internal combustion engine in all conditions.
I am sure that at -45C you would need a couple recharges to just keep you ass warm.
No problem in the Sunfire,leave it running and heat on.never had to refill till i got home so none of my valuable time spent in the petri dish was waiting to charge my car,had i been required to recharge i would not have got home till 10-12 pm,by then my house would have been getting very cold because the wood fire would not be going.
Not to say they don't have their place in sunny California,but as a true replacement of doing everything an internal combustion powered veihical can,never. 
Besides at -45C it would be getting charged by power produced by an internal combustion engine so basically there is no upside for a EV in the cold climate.


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## stoveliker (Jan 7, 2022)

salecker said:


> Real winter roads don't have pavement showing and brown ditches
> Do the same test in actual winter conditions and the numbers probably will be quite different.
> Wednesday for me was get the car started at -45C at 10:00 AM warm enough to drive at 11:00 AM
> drive 110 miles to the city to have my dog put to sleep,appointment at 2:00 PM at the people hospital for me get to the city at 1:30 GF drops me at the hospital and takes the dog to be put to sleep,picks me up at 3:00 we do a few stops for parts and groceries and finally leave the city at 6:00 PM drive the 110 miles back home and get the car unloaded and parked and finally turned off at 9:00PM
> ...



Winter elsewhere is 40 F...
So "winter" is a relative notion.

Second, this is more than even a Tesla does in "summer" (whatever that may mean).

Third, sure, some modes of transportation are not suitable for some transport. You would not go do the things you did on your bicycle. And you would not drive to Sao Paulo either (indeed, flying uses less fuel to go there than driving).

Finally, I'm sorry about your dog.


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## woodgeek (Jan 7, 2022)

salecker said:


> Real winter roads don't have pavement showing and brown ditches
> Do the same test in actual winter conditions and the numbers probably will be quite different.
> Wednesday for me was get the car started at -45C at 10:00 AM warm enough to drive at 11:00 AM
> drive 110 miles to the city to have my dog put to sleep,appointment at 2:00 PM at the people hospital for me get to the city at 1:30 GF drops me at the hospital and takes the dog to be put to sleep,picks me up at 3:00 we do a few stops for parts and groceries and finally leave the city at 6:00 PM drive the 110 miles back home and get the car unloaded and parked and finally turned off at 9:00PM
> ...


Sorry about your dog @salecker.

FTR, in cold climates L2 charging stations at homes and destinations allow EVs to keep their cabin and battery warm indefinitely, like a block heater in the same climate.  The battery box on most EVs is temp controlled with circulating coolant, relatively well insulated, and easily kept at working temp 24/7 plugged into shore power, using less power than a block heater.  So that Tesla wouldn't take an hour to get warmed up at -45C. A super-charging stop would take <60 minutes to get the extra range required for the round trip.  And if the juice came from nat gas spinning a utility turbine, your CO2 per mile would still be less than the ICE car.


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## begreen (Jan 7, 2022)

bigealta said:


> We've seen this mindset before. GM's EV1 from the 1990's.


That was more like crushing. Bricking is more like an unauthorized iPhone repair where the phone is fine, but they software block it from booting.


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## lml999 (Jan 7, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> Don't want to bring criticism down on myself, but I imagine I will from some, but what is powering these cars in the US at this time...coal and other fossil fuels?


In my case, the filling station is on my roof, powered by the sun.


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## begreen (Jan 7, 2022)

Some areas have strong hydro. Others have strong wind. In our case it is solar in the summer and hydro/nat gas in the winter. We would really like PSE to get going on geothermal, but by the time they do we'll probably be fusion powered.


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## EbS-P (Jan 8, 2022)

The rural vs urban EV charging infrastructure is some the BBB was addressing here in the US.  As far as winter driving Teslas have been tested at subzero temps.  Norway is leading the world in EV adoption.  They seem to have figured out how to drive EVs in the winter.  I think 500 mile plus range in a package that fits in current models points to what we can expect in the future.  

Think about it this way.  If you can get 150 miles out of battery pack that is 1/4 or less the size and weight of a current battery, you increase mileage so say 200 miles.  When it gets cheap enough this is a game changer.


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## bigealta (Jan 9, 2022)

begreen said:


> That was more like crushing. Bricking is more like an unauthorized iPhone repair where the phone is fine, but they software block it from booting.


So i was trying to say the creation of a new car technology that the people have, use and want that is then later taken away, blocked from use, etc., at the expense of the owners/users and the public in general as well as the potential benefit to our environment.


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## walhondingnashua (Jan 10, 2022)

Im most likely off with my time frames here, but wasn't there an idea to have electric cars before combustion engines were mainstream?  Just imagine what our lives would be like today if all of the developmental efforts went into electric transportation rather than what have now.  How different would our daily lives be if we never had gas/ deisel engines and society developed with electric.


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## stoveliker (Jan 10, 2022)

there were electric cars before ICE came to dominance.


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## bigealta (Jan 10, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> there were electric cars before ICE came to dominance.


And multi fuel cars.
And wood fired cars, i see some guys building them again.
My grandfather told me about them when i was a kid (now 56).
He called them gas o gens or something like that. They used them in France during WWII. There was no gas available for the local people, they would have to find wood where ever they were when it ran out of fire.


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## begreen (Jan 16, 2022)

bigealta said:


> And multi fuel cars.
> And wood fired cars, i see some guys building them again.
> My grandfather told me about them when i was a kid (now 56).
> He called them gas o gens or something like that. They used them in France during WWII. There was no gas available for the local people, they would have to find wood where ever they were when it ran out of fire.


There are still clubs making them. Not something my wife would ever drive. This is a 'compact ' model. Power is about half that of running on gasoline.



In operation:


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## stoveliker (Jan 16, 2022)

begreen said:


> There are still clubs making them. Not something my wife would ever drive. This is a 'compact ' model.
> View attachment 290041



A Volvo 244... Good memories.


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## enordy (Jan 16, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> A Volvo 244... Good memories.


Turbobricks! I had 4, stopped with the '99 model year.  Ford and whatnot.....


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## begreen (Jan 17, 2022)

I had a few 122 wagons and a 144. Tough cars.


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## EbS-P (Jan 17, 2022)

First car was an ‘82 240 that I came home from the hospital in that year.


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## stoveliker (Jan 17, 2022)

Same here. Dad had seen a lot of (air force pilot bravoure) friends kill themselves. So when babies arrived, he bought what (he believed) was then the most safe car. I remember him showing me the beams in the doors...  Built like a tank.


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## Ashful (Jan 18, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> The last key point here regards the doomy concerns about EV electricity demand blowing up the grid, or there being an 'electricity shortage' that EVs will exacerbate. Nope. New wind and solar (and gas generators) are cheap, and all three are relatively quick to build.


Is not the majority of demand to be created by EV charging to occur in overnight or off-peak hours, anyway?  Could not smart charging options delay charging until grid usage is at its overnight minima, to help increase load stability of the grid?  By increasing base load, increasing the fraction of generation from sources that cannot be easily throttled on an hours time scale becomes more feasible, eg. nuclear.



salecker said:


> Besides at -45C it would be getting charged by power produced by an internal combustion engine so basically there is no upside for a EV in the cold climate.


I'm not going to waste my time poking thru Google results to find the data on this, but I'd bet hard cash that the fraction of global population seeing normal winter daily lows of -45C is damn near 0%.  There are bound to be situations were EV's are not the best solution, but if the numbers are small...

The bigger problem for those living and working in situations where a new technology dominates, but is not accessible or practical for their use, is the reduced availability and increased cost of staying with the old tech.  Put otherwise, when mainstream auto manufacturers stop all development of ICE's, what are you going to drive?  There will be options, but they won't benefit from the present economy of scale.


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## peakbagger (Jan 18, 2022)

The nice thing with EVs is other countries are acting as guinea pigs, Norway has gone big time into EVs and at some point will ban fossil fueled cars. They have similar temperature extremes. They also are sitting on a lot of pumped storage hydro. My Rav4 Prime will not run under -21 F (-29C) unless it is plugged in to keep a couple electric strip heaters running to keep the battery warm and the range suffers which means a bit more gas is used to run the engine. 

 Storage is basically no longer a technical issue it's an economic one, surcharge renewable that has no storage or incentivize storage and the storage will get installed. The Energy Vault gravity based storage towers use readily available materials  and can be made in North America. Iron Air batteries and zinc based chemistries are soon to deploy. Add in real time demand pricing and the tech is there but not the will.  

Begin Rant, the long term answers are there but there is a large portion of the population and in congress whose philosophy is take the money and run, they could care less what happens down the line to their descendants when they are in the grave. Throw in the religious folks who figure judgement day is right around the block (like it has been for centuries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events) so they do not have to worry and they add up to be enough to split a divided electorate.  Every indication is any progress on climate is going to get thrown out at the midterms when the US goes conservative again.


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## begreen (Jan 20, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Could not smart charging options delay charging until grid usage is at its overnight minima, to help increase load stability of the grid?


Most EVs (if not all) have an option for delayed charging for this reason. On our car it's manually set by the owner to match evening reduced electric rates.


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## peakbagger (Jan 21, 2022)

IMO Toyota is blowing it on delayed charging. Their ap can do that and lot of other things but its free only for a limited duration (first year) after that if you want delayed charging you pay the monthly fee for connected services or buy a more expensive smart EVSE in the garage with a brain to do the work. I have an ancient X-10 system in my house so all I need to do plug in my cord to an X-10 240 volt module and I can program it through the X-10. I am on a straight rate so no incentive to do so. 

We had a phone call at work with a major engineering firm that does large office and lab buildings,  they are in quandary that the biggest electrical load in the new buildings will be the potential EV charging load. The owners want full charging capability at every parking space and if every employee, plugs in when they get to work the electrical demand is huge far larger than the rest of the building. They will need to put in a much larger electrical system to deal with it and the owner is looking at setting very high electrical demand rates. With loads in  the building they can get tricky and put in load demand for large loads by staging stops and starts but the EV charging it is out of their control. This EV load is generally on peak load, the exact opposite of what the grid needs. If the employee can charge up at work for "free" during the day what is in it for the employee to burn up their own KWhrs at home at night to charge up? If the owner puts a billing system for their employees for charging, they look like cheapskates and if its a competitive industry its a disincentive to the employees who may decide to go elsewhere.


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## stoveliker (Jan 21, 2022)

Use solar covered parking; production peaks during charging peaks.

Upfront investment (solar vs system to handle big loads) may be similar?


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## woodgeek (Jan 21, 2022)

I'd say skip the charging at work, or limit the number of spaces or the power level or both.

Charging at work and grocery stores is so 2015, for folks with dinky batteries.


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## peakbagger (Jan 21, 2022)

Solar powered parking doesnt have a great rep in the northeast. Snow loads and where the water goes after thawing is big issue. I know of one large installation that was locked out for a couple of years due to failure to get a handle on both. It was third party install so the hosital was holding the output hostage until the icing issues were dealt with.  I have looked at it for two clients and its very pricey. Plus a lot of urban sites have shading issues so hours of actual daylight is short especially in winter with low sun angles. 

One of my projects was in a urban hospital setting with 2 six story garages, one for employees and one for the patients and visitors plus overflow of staff. No way is a roof mounted array going to make much of a dent in 6 story parking garages. Sure a suburban campus type facility would be better suited but in urban areas its problematical.


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## ABMax24 (Jan 21, 2022)

What a different world some of us live in, most employers around here won't install a standard 15 amp plug so their employees can run their block heater in the winter, nevermind a charger for an EV.


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## EbS-P (Jan 21, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> IMO Toyota is blowing it on delayed charging. Their ap can do that and lot of other things but its free only for a limited duration (first year) after that if you want delayed charging you pay the monthly fee for connected services or buy a more expensive smart EVSE in the garage with a brain to do the work. I have an ancient X-10 system in my house so all I need to do plug in my cord to an X-10 240 volt module and I can program it through the X-10. I am on a straight rate so no incentive to do so.
> 
> We had a phone call at work with a major engineering firm that does large office and lab buildings,  they are in quandary that the biggest electrical load in the new buildings will be the potential EV charging load. The owners want full charging capability at every parking space and if every employee, plugs in when they get to work the electrical demand is huge far larger than the rest of the building. They will need to put in a much larger electrical system to deal with it and the owner is looking at setting very high electrical demand rates. With loads in  the building they can get tricky and put in load demand for large loads by staging stops and starts but the EV charging it is out of their control. This EV load is generally on peak load, the exact opposite of what the grid needs. If the employee can charge up at work for "free" during the day what is in it for the employee to burn up their own KWhrs at home at night to charge up? If the owner puts a billing system for their employees for charging, they look like cheapskates and if its a competitive industry its a disincentive to the employees who may decide to go elsewhere.


As an employee of a state university I have to pay 250$ a year for a parking permit free charging at work is benefit that I could only dream of and I have a PhD.  If the company really sees that as essential to be competitive they will need to pony up the cash and make that investment. Personally is seems excessive and with range of EVs increasing like the OP’s article stated I see wool charging as unnecessary.  Really they can’t replace this benefit with extra salary?    

I’m not dismissing the magnitude of the problem, it just seems that it’s a problem they are choosing to tackle.  Just just give a 2-4$ a day bonus  for driving an EV to work.  License plate scanner at the parking entrance.  Done……


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## stoveliker (Jan 21, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> Solar powered parking doesnt have a great rep in the northeast. Snow loads and where the water goes after thawing is big issue. I know of one large installation that was locked out for a couple of years due to failure to get a handle on both. It was third party install so the hosital was holding the output hostage until the icing issues were dealt with.  I have looked at it for two clients and its very pricey. Plus a lot of urban sites have shading issues so hours of actual daylight is short especially in winter with low sun angles.
> 
> One of my projects was in a urban hospital setting with 2 six story garages, one for employees and one for the patients and visitors plus overflow of staff. No way is a roof mounted array going to make much of a dent in 6 story parking garages. Sure a suburban campus type facility would be better suited but in urban areas its problematical.


The water is nonsense; there is not more hard surface with solar panels as compared to blacktop.
In fact, one can keep more water off the black top (less drains). 

Snow is understandable. Not unsolvable though imo. Urban issues I don't know much about - avoid urban areas like the plague


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## peakbagger (Jan 21, 2022)

At the hospital site, the water ran down the panels and dripped off the lower edge forming icicles and ice patches. They tried to patch it with gutters on the lower ends but they iced up due to inadequate slope. The gutters dumped out on the ground and then still caused ice patches. No doubt if the area was paved and sloped correctly it may have been different, but they just installed foundations for the panels on an existing parking lot. When I was looking at another site a few years later, we were told to install an extensive underground drainage system in the lot to deal with icing issues associated with the panels. Its a lot easier to plow a open lot and let the sun melt it off eventually but once its covered with panels ice is apprently a lot more of an issue. Snow inevitably blows in under the panels and snow removal apparently is a lot more difficult. At the first site they had to redo all the inverters and conduit as the location required by code was right in line with plow blades. 

I am not saying it cannot be done, its just a lot more expensive.


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## stoveliker (Jan 21, 2022)

Sure, but the larger electric system you started with is also a lot more expensive. And "the slope was wrong" is a rather poor argument regarding price. It's a fantastic argument for better thinking before designing ...


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## Ashful (Jan 24, 2022)

begreen said:


> Most EVs (if not all) have an option for delayed charging for this reason. On our car it's manually set by the owner to match evening reduced electric rates.


I said this more than two years ago, I think, but this is a market sector ripe for the picking.  Someone should be implementing a management system between utility and EV end users, to smartly manage this massive un-tapped storage resource.  Elon should be all over this one, in fact I'd be amazed if he is not.  Is not storage still a primary obstacle to increased nuclear, hydro, and wind generation?



woodgeek said:


> Charging at work and grocery stores is so 2015, for folks with dinky batteries.


Someday we'll have to explain to our grandkids that we once thought driving across town to fuel our vehicle at a service station was more convenient than just plugging it in when we got home at night, like we already do with our smart phones.   Yeah... it already sounds crazy.


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## begreen (Jan 24, 2022)

Smart charging and resource sharing are being explored closely by many electric utilities. I don't know where we will see it first, Asia, Europe, or here, but it is definitely being looked at. The transition is not a trivial matter but possible. I believe ABB and Hitachi are working on the technology necessary and companies like Honda and Toyota have research projects. Using one's car to power the grid also brings up socio-economic issues that need to be resolved. It's not a trivial change, but seems inevitable. 









						Excuse Me, Can I Use Your Car To Stabilize & Power The Grid?
					

Vehicle to Grid for more information on the REVs project which is being implemented across 11 Australian Capital Territory Government sites across Canberra.




					cleantechnica.com
				












						Electric Car and Truck Charging, Explained - Climate Nexus Backgrounder
					

Electric car and truck charging, explained. How often do electric cars and trucks need to be charged? Where can I charge? And more!




					climatenexus.org


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## EbS-P (Jan 24, 2022)

Ashful said:


> I said this more than two years ago, I think, but this is a market sector ripe for the picking.  Someone should be implementing a management system between utility and EV end users, to smartly manage this massive un-tapped storage resource.  Elon should be all over this one, in fact I'd be amazed if he is not.  Is not storage still a primary obstacle to increased nuclear, hydro, and wind generation?
> 
> 
> Someday we'll have to explain to our grandkids that we once thought driving across town to fuel our vehicle at a service station was more convenient than just plugging it in when we got home at night, like we already do with our smart phones.   Yeah... it already sounds crazy.


New Ford F-150 EV does allow to power home  but you need their 80amp charger which requires 320 amp service.


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## ABMax24 (Jan 24, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> New Ford F-150 EV does allow to power home  but you need their 80amp charger which requires 320 amp service.


 Can you elaborate on this? I have 100amp service currently and could likely get 200amp, but I don't see how I'd easily get 400amp service.


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## DBoon (Jan 24, 2022)

I'd love to think that electric utilities will pay me a fair price to utilize my car battery for grid needs when there are times of peak demand, but I really doubt that this will happen in the next twenty years. My local utility still sends a meter reader to physically read my meter every two months, and I'm not sure that there are any utilities who really do true time-of-use billing to the 15 minute increment that would make it helpful for a consumer (such as me) to recognize times of peak load and either shed load or provide supply, based on some price signal from the utility and some type of smart device. Does any electric utility have the capability to do this in the next 20 years?


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## begreen (Jan 24, 2022)

We haven't had a meter reader for the past 15 yrs. in our rural area. It's all radioed back to some head office. Our house has  been set up for net metering for the past 12 yrs. It would seem to be a relatively straight-forward task to determine peak load metering. I think this is already done in some states like California.

 One thing that would be necessary with a vehicle backup interface is for it to instantly disconnect the main service in the event of a power failure to avoid backfeeding the system in the event of a downed wire or line work being done.


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## Solarguy3500 (Jan 24, 2022)

DBoon said:


> I'd love to think that electric utilities will pay me a fair price to utilize my car battery for grid needs when there are times of peak demand, but I really doubt that this will happen in the next twenty years. My local utility still sends a meter reader to physically read my meter every two months, and I'm not sure that there are any utilities who really do true time-of-use billing to the 15 minute increment that would make it helpful for a consumer (such as me) to recognize times of peak load and either shed load or provide supply, based on some price signal from the utility and some type of smart device. Does any electric utility have the capability to do this in the next 20 years?



MA has a program for home backup batteries already. Gotta think it's only a matter of time before they start doing it for EV batteries too. The numbers they advertise on the website for what you can earn tend to be optimistic because they assume a best case scenario contribution from your battery over the whole season, and don't take into account that some battery manufacturers take a cut of the revenue. Example: Tesla takes 20%









						ConnectedSolutions Battery Program
					

The ConnectedSolutions program uses batteries to reduce peak energy use to reduce air pollution and lower electricity cost. For a typical battery capable of a 5-kW continuous contribution during these events, the ConnectedSolutions program would pay $1,125 per year of participation.



					www.masssave.com


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## Ashful (Jan 24, 2022)

begreen said:


> Smart charging and resource sharing are being explored closely by many electric utilities. I don't know where we will see it first, Asia, Europe, or here, but it is definitely being looked at. The transition is not a trivial matter but possible. I believe ABB and Hitachi are working on the technology necessary and companies like Honda and Toyota have research projects. Using one's car to power the grid also brings up socio-economic issues that need to be resolved. It's not a trivial change, but seems inevitable.


The non-trivial issues would appear more political and sociological than technical, but let's also not assume that electrons need to float both directions to make something of this.  Simply managing the timeframe in which the car takes charge from the grid could provide enormous benefit to utilities, without any need to use the batteries as a power source during peak demand.


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## Solarguy3500 (Jan 24, 2022)

Ashful said:


> The non-trivial issues would appear more political and sociological than technical, but let's also not assume that electrons need to float both directions to make something of this.  Simply managing the timeframe in which the car takes charge from the grid could provide enormous benefit to utilities, without any need to use the batteries as a power source during peak demand.



One of the utilities in MA has a program for EV chargers that is run through the same Connected Solutions program that offers incentives for home battery discharge during peak demand.





__





						EV Charger Demand Response
					






					www.eversource.com


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## Solarguy3500 (Jan 24, 2022)

begreen said:


> One thing that would be necessary with a vehicle backup interface is for it to instantly disconnect the main service in the event of a power failure to avoid backfeeding the system in the event of a downed wire or line work being done.


Correct. The other component that you have to purchase with the F150 is a transfer switch if you want to use it for home backup power.


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## begreen (Jan 24, 2022)

Ashful said:


> The non-trivial issues would appear more political and sociological than technical, but let's also not assume that electrons need to float both directions to make something of this.  Simply managing the timeframe in which the car takes charge from the grid could provide enormous benefit to utilities, without any need to use the batteries as a power source during peak demand.


Yes, regardless of the technology or even simply controlling the charging time period, the system will need user consent and the option to override. Individual needs and circumstances will vary depending on how far the vehicle owner expects to drive the next day, the battery size, outdoor temperature, etc. A partial charge may suffice in some cases but not be acceptable in others. Winter range will be shorter so some may need to charge up longer then.


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## EbS-P (Jan 24, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> Can you elaborate on this? I have 100amp service currently and could likely get 200amp, but I don't see how I'd easily get 400amp service.


I didn’t look into it any deeper than this video. My guess is the 80 amp charger, when you do your load calculations, put you over 200 amps for the average house.  It’s not the only I’m sure, just the officially supported one.  If you want fast home charging it will be the biggest current draw.  Not everyone needs it.  Doing some math I can easily charge 180 miles a week off of 15 Amp 120v.  We don’t drive that much and work from home when we can. 80 amp charging is it a luxury not a necessity.


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## woodgeek (Jan 25, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I didn’t look into it any deeper than this video. My guess is the 80 amp charger, when you do your load calculations, put you over 200 amps for the average house.  It’s not the only I’m sure, just the officially supported one.  If you want fast home charging it will be the biggest current draw.  Not everyone needs it.  Doing some math I can easily charge 180 miles a week off of 15 Amp 120v.  We don’t drive that much and work from home when we can. 80 amp charging is it a luxury not a necessity.



Interesting video, but I honestly wasn't surprised by any of this guy's numbers.

For the record, I live in a spendy neighborhood, where every other house has a Tesla AND a whole house generator.

The one thing I find ridiculous is the idea of the value proposition of needing >10 kW of backup power.  I consider THAT a luxury, and not a necessity.  Like, do I need to run EVERYTHING at the same time, like, my Central AC (or electric heating), my coffeepot, my fridge, my sump pump, cook Thanksgiving dinner, wash a mountain of laundry and take 6 showers back to back?  That is how I get to 10 kW.

There is a BIG utility gap between 10-20 watts (what I get from a flashlight or USB power pack) and 10,000 Watts from an F-150 or Powerwall!

Ofc, I have been backfeeding my house for many years from an EV (a LEAF, a Bolt AND a Volt), several days of runtime total at this point.

I have a 2 kW sine wave inverter putting out 120VAC, and I just backfeed ALL my 120 V circuits (including fridge and sump pump).  Can't run the coffeepot AND the microwave at the same time, so I take turns.  I cook on a $50 propane campstove I stick on my (dead) electric range.  I take navy showers from the HW in my 80 gal HPWH (which stays warm for 4 days).  I heat my house with my wood insert (and have plenty of juice for the blower).  I skip doing laundry.

Done.  I use about 8-10 kWh per day (only half as much as video guy), that was 1.5 days backup from the LEAF, 4 days from the Bolt, and close to a week with the Volt (burning an 8 gal tank of gas).  Total cost of system: about $400 for the inverter and wiring, and $300 to DIY install a 50A outlet I backfeed through.

So, 2 kW has a great utility, and only costs me $700 (+ EV).  This is $0.31/Watt, and a low cost of entry, versus the >$1/Watt for the PowerWall or the several $$/Watt for a Yeti thing.

What I did learn:
(1) Ford is subsidizing the Lightning to get low price point.  Ofc they are.  The F-150 is their flagship and profit center, ofc they want to transition it ASAP.  The question is their build volume.  The Volt (in 2010) and Bolt (in 2016) were also heavy subsidized, and then produced in low volumes.  GM saw them as 'pathfinders' or betas to get real world data (and they had mandatory 3G car telemetry installed so GM engineering could track everything).  With the battery problems of the Bolt (and the LEAF), I think its cleat that it IS a beta.  Is the Lightning also a low volume beta?

The 320A breaker box is a deal killer.  Total bait and switch.  They will get people into the showroom putting home backup in the ads, and then no one will actually do the backfeed.  They WILL run extension cords into their house (or worksite) and run stuff that way and be happy.

Nissan was pushing their backfeed solution for the LEAF in 2012 as a sales tactic.  10 years ago.  Never sold outside Japan. Back to the future for Ford.  Although to their credit, I think they DO have a large sine-wave inverter installed standard in every unit sold!

(2)  The 'wall box' at the end... With millions of EVs driving around today, and another 1 M or so added per year, the market for someone with an **affordable** several kW bi-directional EVSE is growing every year.  Eventually they will come within reach for the non DIY-er.  The US market has been looking for this for 10 years already.... hopefully it won't take 10 more.


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Jan 26, 2022)

I am a little skeptical of the vehicle to grid options. There’s lots of new vehicles which are coming out that allow vehicle to load which will be useful for people on camping trips or during emergency blackouts. That’s different than using the batteries as a core component of the grid. 

First, the manufacturers have to think about the warranty period for batteries. Most batteries have something like an 8-10 year 80k to 100k mile warranty.  Let’s assume that the grid takes 5 kwh from your car every day. That’s the equivalent of about 5,000 miles assuming discharging to the grid is somewhat equivalent to discharging to the motor.  Are they going to start warrantying the battery based on kwh instead of miles? Do I want to prematurely degrade the range of my ev for the benefit of the grid?

Also, as Begreen and others have mentioned this needs to be beneficial to the customer. My current solar metering is pretty lame. I pay $0.15 for each kwh I pull from the grid and get paid $0.04 for each kwh I send back to the grid. My daytime over production does not offset my nighttime use. I wouldn’t let the utility pay me $0.04 for sending electricity from my battery and then charge me $0.15 to recharge it. So the reimbursement rates have to make sense for the customer to buy in to it. 

I suspect that by the time we have enough BEVs around, and the right hardware and software available to manage all of this the utilities will be able to repurpose aging batteries that are no longer useful for vehicles but may be useful for grid storage. The utility can also actively manage their batteries in a central location instead of passively managing all of their dispersed batteries in peoples garages. This also helps with the battery end of life disposal problems.


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## Ashful (Jan 26, 2022)

begreen said:


> Yes, regardless of the technology or even simply controlling the charging time period, the system will need user consent and the option to override. Individual needs and circumstances will vary depending on how far the vehicle owner expects to drive the next day, the battery size, outdoor temperature, etc. A partial charge may suffice in some cases but not be acceptable in others. Winter range will be shorter so some may need to charge up longer then.


Yep, all issues to resolve, but relatively small obstacles, in my view of it.  Even my comparatively-inexpensive iphone has had the ability for several years to charge itself to 80% when I plug it in at night, waiting until the time just prior to me waking to finish the charge.  It's smart enough to know I wake up and pick it up nearly every morning at 5am, and I can indeed see that feature's working as designed if I wake at 4am to take a piss.  This is a compromise, my phone will never be fully charged if I have an emergency at 3am, but I figure I can get by with 80% for that rare occasion.

Likewise, there are many practical and relatively unobtrusive compromises that could be made, in the name of grid load stabilization, with a projected future of 100M EV's plugged into the grid.  I think it's inevitable, there is no way we won't end up there, the only question is the form it will take and who will be reaping profit from it.


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