# Penn Royal Information



## venator260 (Nov 23, 2015)

This may not be the perfect place for this, as this stove is a coal burner also. However, I'm a member here and I only burn wood in it, so I thought perhaps I may get some information.

What I have is a Penn Royal model 3418 (according to the tag on the back). Its also UL listed, with a tag number 001449. What I want to know is just about anything else. Specifically a general date of manufacture and if there's a source out there for parts, should the need arise. I have tried to use the jnfo above to search the internet, but all ive found are people selling theirs and stoves that were broken beyond repair.

My grandfather bought this as appliance number four to heat his house (that I've inherited). No one can seem to remember where and when he got it, and there's no manual for it anywhere in the house. This is quite odd, as my grandfather kept EVERYTHING and my grandma was meticulous about writing down the dates of anything that happened. Ive found manuals for and dates of installation for their last three washing machines and every single ceiling fan, but nothing for the stove.

Also, I seem to get better heat with the top vents opened a bit in addition to the bottom vents. This is not how my grandfather burned it, however, I seem to get better heat with just as long of burn times. Im still playingwith it, the stove that i grew up tending was a late 80's Kodiak with only two inlets on the door. Could I be making this up, or could I be getting some secondary combustion?


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## begreen (Nov 25, 2015)

I don't know this stove but suspect that secondary combustion is unlikely due to its coal heritage and I suspect a lack of baffle. For parts I would try the coal forums at: www.nepacrossroads.com.


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## venator260 (Nov 25, 2015)

begreen said:


> I don't know this stove but suspect that secondary combustion is unlikely due to its coal heritage and I suspect a lack of baffle. For parts I would try the coal forums at: www.nepacrossroads.com.



There is actually a baffle in this stove. I'm not sure how well it works, and doesn't look like those I've Google searched. its a u shape with the u right side up under the outlet, and it doesn't extend the whole way across. I may check over at nepa crossroads, although everything on the stove is in working g order. I needed only to replace some fire bricks, and it took the only size the local tractor supply had in stock. 

For now, I'm just looking to satisfy my curiosity.


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## coaly (Nov 25, 2015)

Woodman's Associates has grates for model "L" if that's what it is. Any other cast parts for inside they can make with your old parts.
The steel plate parts and moving parts are repairable, weldable  and machinable.

For coal burning, air must come up through coal for combustion.  The upper intakes are called secondary air inlets. The upper air intakes are only opened slightly to allow enough oxygen above fire to ignite coal gas. It glows in a pile and the fresh coal on top expels flammable gas that burns blue on top. The fire can consume all oxygen coming up though fire bed, so all coal stoves have a way of getting oxygen to the top as well. Wood burns very fast getting air up through it, and should be burned in a bed of ash on brick stove bottom of wood stove. Wood doesn't care where the oxygen comes from. You're out gassing the wood fast with lots of oxygen from beneath it, so giving it oxygen at the top can ignite smoke particles when hot enough.
Closing the bottom almost tight and using more upper air is better for slower wood burning. Depending on where the air wash comes from for the glass, you may have to open lower intakes more for that too. You will see the smoke wash away from glass. Opening the top too much allows indoor air above the fire to slip up chimney, cooling it and slowing draft. With coal this can be desireable to extend over night burns. With wood, this is bad since cooling the flue creates creosote. You'll be much happier with hard anthracite coal in it. A stove can't be designed for burning both well. Some have kits to convert for wood, but don't work as well as a wood only stove.


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## venator260 (Nov 25, 2015)

coaly said:


> Woodman's Associates has grates for model "L" if that's what it is. Any other cast parts for inside they can make with your old parts.
> The steel plate parts and moving parts are repairable, weldable  and machinable.
> 
> For coal burning, air must come up through coal for combustion.  The upper intakes are called secondary air inlets. The upper air intakes are only opened slightly to allow enough oxygen above fire to ignite coal gas. It glows in a pile and the fresh coal on top expels flammable gas that burns blue on top. The fire can consume all oxygen coming up though fire bed, so all coal stoves have a way of getting oxygen to the top as well. Wood burns very fast getting air up through it, and should be burned in a bed of ash on brick stove bottom of wood stove. Wood doesn't care where the oxygen comes from. You're out gassing the wood fast with lots of oxygen from beneath it, so giving it oxygen at the top can ignite smoke particles when hot enough.
> Closing the bottom almost tight and using more upper air is better for slower wood burning. Depending on where the air wash comes from for the glass, you may have to open lower intakes more for that too. You will see the smoke wash away from glass. Opening the top too much allows indoor air above the fire to slip up chimney, cooling it and slowing draft. With coal this can be desireable to extend over night burns. With wood, this is bad since cooling the flue creates creosote. You'll be much happier with hard anthracite coal in it. A stove can't be designed for burning both well. Some have kits to convert for wood, but don't work as well as a wood only stove.




I looked at that site and that model isn't similar at all to what I have.

A few on here in another thread have said about how what I have isn't ideal for wood. And that's probably true, however, it warms up the whole house pretty good, and with overnights and working full time, I haven't lit a fire in over a week. Sometimes I need kindling and sometimes I can just pull the coals into a pile and throw a piece on there and it takes off.

I would like to get another stove. I have an extra duty at work that makes Thursdays a 10 hour day, and it would be great not to have to build a fire after that. And im sure id go through less wood. But this stove was (1) free and (2) already installed in a working configuration. And since it does heat the whole house fairly well, that doesn't put me in a huge hurry to replace it.

I thought about getting some coal to get longer burn times, especially through the day. But then I read that coal is tough on stainless steel liners. The year's worth of css ash that's been undercover for two years doesn't hurt either.

I've been fiddling with the air settings, and I've settled on keeping the bottom pretty tight and opening the top vents as well. They're pretty small, so too much air has yet to be a problem. I can hear the air being sucked in unless the fire has burned really low, indicating a strong draft.

My eventual plan is to replace this stove with a new epa-certified model and use this stove to heat up my garage (after I build some sort of chimney and do some insulation). My wife is also itching to install a fireplace, and we looked at some jotul models that were rated to be decently efficient.


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## coaly (Nov 26, 2015)

The fly ash from coal is very corrosive (turns to lye when wet) so after the season it needs to be cleaned very well. It doesn't do harm during the season if you burn it hard enough to keep flue hot and prevent water vapor from condensing on flue walls. The summer humidity that drops down the chimney flue at night and condenses causes the acidity in a metal liner. I pull the connector pipe and rinse it with water, then store dry pipe until the next year. Masonry flue is the answer for chimney with them. Looks like white dust inside.
It takes a barometric damper as well to control a coal fire. It's the only way to keep a steady exact flow through the coal bed.

It's not really a burn time with coal, it's constant and very even from about November until you leave it go out in the spring. You light it once with kindling, shake it and add coal a couple times a day and set the air as needed. Most important is to empty ash daily to keep ash below grates so they stay cool. That is the coal stove killer; melting and warping grates. You can leave for 18 hours and have enough glowing coals to shake and kick it up without loosing the fire. We're not quite to the point of needing 24/7 coal here in Monroe County yet. The rule of thumb is it should stay below 40 day and night for proper draft through a coal fire. (and not over heat the house) Good airtight stoves like these don't burn out overnight or end up with unburned coal and clinkers like antiques. At the end of the season when you don't add any more coal and just shake it to clean it, ours takes 3 days to burn out. Never burned more than two tons a season to heat 1880 sf. That's burning wood at night until full time heat is needed. It's as close to automatic heat as you can get.
We burn standing dead and storm damaged trees from the acreage we own. (in a wood stove) Working on a rental home all summer we didn't do wood, so we'll have an easy winter and pay for coal. It's still less than any other heat.


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## venator260 (Nov 26, 2015)

coaly said:


> It's not really a burn time with coal, it's constant and very even from about November until you leave it go out in the spring. You light it once with kindling, shake it and add coal a couple times a day and set the air as needed. Most important is to empty ash daily to keep ash below grates so they stay cool. That is the coal stove killer; melting and warping grates. You can leave for 18 hours and have enough glowing coals to shake and kick it up without loosing the fire.



This would be the perk for me with coal. Being able to be gone all day and still have a warm house to come back to. That's what draws me to a modern wood stove; I need burn times that can be extended for another 2-3 hours over what I get now. 

Could one do a hybrid type system like that? Throw some coal on a burned down wood fire and let it burn all day, and then throw some wood back on if I knew I would be home enough to tend the wood fire? I've watched some videos and read articles about tending a hand fired coal fire, so I know that one needs to let it ignite and then slowly turn the air back. The shaker mechanism on this stove still moves around, and my grandfather (even though I never remember him burning coal and I'm 28) kept the handle that is used to shake it down.


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## coaly (Nov 26, 2015)

There is more to a coal fire than mixing and burning like wood. That is common in Australia with different fuel.
The bed has to be all the way across and cover the entire grate. It needs to be deep. If it burns down to a hole in the fire, it is an air leak that allows a rush of air up through and the rest won't get oxygen up through it. That's where the art of shaking just enough and keeping the depth correct for the firebox comes in. You put an entire bucket right across the top of the burning mass and it slowly burns up through it. As ash builds up and seals the bottom, It shakes very easy at first dumping very fine ash. Stop as red coals drop immediately or you over shake and get a rough fire. It won't be even and have hot spots flaming and cold spots dark. It's better to stop when glowies drop, look under it and poke from the bottom where the dark spots are to remove a little ash and trim it a little than continue shaking the entire grate. It takes experience to keep an even fire. Never poke a coal fire from the top! The size of coal pieces make a big difference since that determines how much oxygen goes between the coal. *You get the same BTU from any size*, but the smaller the pieces, the slower it burns since there is less oxygen between the pieces. So during the day or if it warms up, you use the "fines" from the bottom of bin. If you're going away for a day or more, that's what you load it with. Cold nights you use the larger correct size pieces. The smallest size that won't fall through grates is correct. Probably Chestnut in your case. Boilers are more critical and the fire is deeper like a horseshoe around the edges to prevent a hole in the fire next to a side sheet. The cooler air that leaks in contracts the sheet causing leaks in stays or fittings. Stationary boilers are much easier than moving locomotives and traction engine or rollers. It's imperative to coordinate between engineer and fireman to have a heavy or light fire at the proper time and emergencies that change what you were expecting can overheat and blow off steam or catch you with not enough fire. If he opens the throttle too much, a hole can be sucked through the fire or lift right off the grates!

Your idea with a newer stove sounds great if they worked that way. I think what you'll find is when you leave with a good secondary fire rolling, that may only last for 2 hours. The rest of the time you have a glowing mass that  prolongs the burn, with much less heat output. So you will probably come home to glowing wood or coals and a cold house. That's the way my neighbors new Lopi works. If he's not there to keep putting wood on top to keep the secondaries lit, he's in cool down. I've tried his, maybe we're not experienced enough with it yet. It wasn't the answer for him heating less than 1000 sf. log cabin. I have a Mama Bear in the exact same cabin as his (kit homes from Finland) and I'm warm over longer periods of time, and yes burn more wood. Others with newer stoves may correct me, but that's my experience with them.


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## venator260 (Nov 26, 2015)

coaly said:


> There is more to a coal fire than mixing and burning like wood. That is common in Australia with different fuel.
> The bed has to be all the way across and cover the entire grate. It needs to be deep. If it burns down to a hole in the fire, it is an air leak that allows a rush of air up through and the rest won't get oxygen up through it. That's where the art of shaking just enough and keeping the depth correct for the firebox comes in. You put an entire bucket right across the top of the burning mass and it slowly burns up through it. As ash builds up and seals the bottom, It shakes very easy at first dumping very fine ash. Stop as red coals drop immediately or you over shake and get a rough fire. It won't be even and have hot spots flaming and cold spots dark. It's better to stop when glowies drop, look under it and poke from the bottom where the dark spots are to remove a little ash and trim it a little than continue shaking the entire grate. It takes experience to keep an even fire. Never poke a coal fire from the top! The size of coal pieces make a big difference since that determines how much oxygen goes between the coal. *You get the same BTU from any size*, but the smaller the pieces, the slower it burns since there is less oxygen between the pieces. So during the day or if it warms up, you use the "fines" from the bottom of bin. If you're going away for a day or more, that's what you load it with. Cold nights you use the larger correct size pieces. The smallest size that won't fall through grates is correct. Probably Chestnut in your case. Boilers are more critical and the fire is deeper like a horseshoe around the edges to prevent a hole in the fire next to a side sheet. The cooler air that leaks in contracts the sheet causing leaks in stays or fittings. Stationary boilers are much easier than moving locomotives and traction engine or rollers. It's imperative to coordinate between engineer and fireman to have a heavy or light fire at the proper time and emergencies that change what you were expecting can overheat and blow off steam or catch you with not enough fire. If he opens the throttle too much, a hole can be sucked through the fire or lift right off the grates!
> 
> Your idea with a newer stove sounds great if they worked that way. I think what you'll find is when you leave with a good secondary fire rolling, that may only last for 2 hours. The rest of the time you have a glowing mass that  prolongs the burn, with much less heat output. So you will probably come home to glowing wood or coals and a cold house. That's the way my neighbors new Lopi works. If he's not there to keep putting wood on top to keep the secondaries lit, he's in cool down. I've tried his, maybe we're not experienced enough with it yet. It wasn't the answer for him heating less than 1000 sf. log cabin. I have a Mama Bear in the exact same cabin as his (kit homes from Finland) and I'm warm over longer periods of time, and yes burn more wood. Others with newer stoves may correct me, but that's my experience with them.




Good to know about the coal fire. I'm not sure how well my stove would work with coal, as the shakers aren't as I have seen. It's a circle cut out of a square plate in the bottom, and the circle rotates inside of the square, and the square insert can be moved back and forth. There's also about 4 inches around the perimeter that's stationary and slopes into the center. So it may be difficult for me to get an even shake. I would think that at an end stage of a wood fire, just when the sticks will break apart and they're about golf ball sized glowing coals that can cover the entire bottom, that's when I could toss coal on the fire and it work out ok. Then if that could hold for about 12 hours, well that's my long day plus travel time, and I could shake down and toss wood on top of that until I need a longer burn time again. Is that a system that would work, or does that sound like a bad idea? 

I wonder about newer stoves as well. I can run mine now to where I get acceptable heat overnight, and am left with a few embers, or I can burn it for 4-5 hours with nice, steady heat. I assumed with a newer, more efficient woodstove, I could have the stove get less air, more heat would go into the house and less up the chimney, allowing me to burn slower and extend burn times. That was my thought anyway. If the stove I have now threw 10 to 20 percent more of the heat from the wood into the house, I would just leave it alone. It's done quite good so far at heating the entire house up fixing in 2-3 times per day. (wake up, return from work, bed). Increasing the air and fixing it a time or two more should do  well for the colder days; although, the upstairs bedrooms may get a bit chilly due to poor air circulation. 

You're experience mirrors a few that I have heard; many others love their new stoves when they upgrade. So I'm not quite sure what to think that this point. What I'm doing works ok, but I'm always looking for something better


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## coaly (Nov 26, 2015)

Burned down wood with no flame would not ignite coal.
It only takes 15 minutes from match to established coal fire when you twist up some newspaper, add a little cardboard in strips, then a couple pieces of kindling over it. Very small like a 2 X 4 splintered down in 3/4 to 21 inch diameter pieces.When it's burning fast, you sprinkle coal over it and let all the air you can come up through it so it's like torch flames coming up through the coal. Sometimes you even have to open the ash pad door to get it ripping up through the coal. Within minutes, it starts glowing, you add more, and finally cover the burning mass leaving air wide open until glowing and flaming. Close the air, and it will start to heat. You won't think it will get very hot from the glowing mass, since the stove will only be warm while it's starting, but once the fire is established and grows it will heat much more than wood. With upper air cracked, you should get little flicks of blue flame here and there, and as you open the bottom air more, the blue flames grow until they are all the way to the top and rolling around. That is way hot and will over fire the stove in time. At cruise you only want a steady flame about 2 inches high. Warm days at an idle will just glow red until you open some air. Once you do it a couple days it becomes easy. It's just very different burning and a whole lot less work. There is a critical mass temperature that if you loose, you won't get a coal fire back like kindling wood from a few coals.
We heated with a Gibraltar stove a few years. Like yours its a stoked stove, meaning you shovel coal on to load. I put it in a rental home and they learned it last year and love it now. I upgraded to the Hitzer mainly because it's a hopper feed from the top that you keep the hopper full with a bucket or two a day, shake morning and night, and that's it. When real cold shaking mid day is necessary.
When you hear people complain that coal is dirty, they are not doing things properly to keep dust to a minimum.

First thing in the morning you shake a little to get it drafting. Not enough to drop hot coals. _*Wipe the door glass with damp rag if you think it needs it or not.*_ With it going fairly well, open ash pan door and pull pan to dump. This will draw any fly ash into the stove and not settle in the house. Same with wood, don't empty the pan with a cold stove not drafting. Light some wadded newspaper near the outlet to get a draft to pull in the fly ash.


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## venator260 (Nov 26, 2015)

Well. Thanks for the education. If I feel the need to try coal, I'll know enough to get started.


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