# Winston Pellet Stoves



## man-machine (Dec 23, 2009)

I'm a newb site member and yeah, I did a search before posting a new topic. When I Googled "Winston Pellet Stoves" I saw a question posted by someone and it directed me to this forum. Now I can share my grief of my Winston WP-24 Pellet Stove.

I didn't buy this sorry piece of junk, it came with the house I bought in 1998. It heats my 24' by 32' garage (machine shop). This thing has been nothing but a nonstop headache from day one but I've never had the money to replace it and I still don't. It began with overfeeding and pellet pileup on both high and low burn. Completely cleaned the heat exchanger section, got the draft set right, replaced the door seal, and set the programmable combustion controler to the factory settings of 36 seconds "off" and feed settings of 6 & 8 seconds for low and high burn.

It still doesn't make very good heat. The burn flame is perfect, 6" high and not too relaxed or frantic. It's like te heat exchanger section just isn't tranfering heat well. I can put my hand right in front of it and it's not overly hot like it should be. I talked to Vern at Edwards & Sons and he said the room blower fan may be dirty. That could be but it still seems like even a reduced amount of airflow should still be roasting hot regardless. With an outside temp of 20F it will only raise 768 sq. ft. of fully insulated garage to about 54F after 24 hours on high burn. I'm running out of repair ideas.   ... m-m


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 23, 2009)

If that blower fan is blocked by dirt you'll have almost no air flow, however the stove above the air tubes should be hot.

I have no idea what weight (actually volume) of pellets the auger on that stove can deliver in one hour being off for 36 of every 42  or 44 seconds.  Usually a pellet stove has a fixed total feed cycle that is:

time off + time on = a constant in the case of my stove the cycle constant is 16 seconds and time on is either 4, 6, 9, 10, or 12 seconds.  The 12 second on setting delivers 4.8+- pounds of pellets per hour.    

but in any event it will have to burn enough pellets to generate heat  then the convection blower must move air through the heat exchanger to extract that heat and send it into the room.

How many bags of pellets are you using in that 24 hour period?


----------



## imacman (Dec 23, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> .........With an outside temp of 20F it will only raise 768 sq. ft. of fully insulated garage to about 54F after 24 hours on high burn.......



man-machine,  only 54 degrees after 24 hours????   Even though it may seem to not be the problem, but the guy Vern said, I'd take the room air blower out & clean it and make sure it's running well...eliminate that as a possible problem before you give up.

I know that you said that you don't have the $$ to buy another stove, but with that stove, you're dumping money (for pellets) down the drain.  Any of even the smallest pellet stoves on the market today would blast you out of that small space.  

Have you looked on Craig's list for a used Englander 25PDVC?  I see them for sale around me for all the time, like this one:

http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/for/1521751253.html

Good luck!


----------



## man-machine (Dec 23, 2009)

Ok, thanks. To answer both of your posts I'll first say that in 24 hours on high burn it would use about 30-35 lbs. of pellets.

I need to correct myself about the feed settings, they are as follows:

Low burn: 3 seconds on and 36 secods off

High burn: 10 seconds on and 36 seconds off

So high burn uses approx. three times as much fuel as low burn unless there's another factor I'm not considering.

The heat output is pitiful, I could get a digital temp reading if that helps but it is lukewarm, not even very hot at all.
I don't have a btu spec on this model but it is the bigger of the two Winston models, the smaller is the WP18, this is the WP24.
Offhand it's probably safe to say this thing should roast a well insulated area of 768 sq. ft. with an 8 ft. ceiling.
I have zero money to replace this thing otherwise I would. I only heat this shop 1-2 days a week but yeah, you're right it is wasting money if I'm only getting a 20F rise in temp, that's unbelievably bad.


----------



## imacman (Dec 23, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Ok, thanks. To answer both of your posts I'll first say that in 24 hours on high burn it would use about 30-35 lbs. of pellets......



Seems to me that the feed rate is what's wrong with that stove.  To only be burning 30-35 lbs a day on high isn't much, but maybe that's all that thing is capable of.  I burn that much in a day on heat setting of 5 or 6 (medium high), and my stove will go to 9.

Too bad you don't have an owners manual or info on the BTU output, etc.


----------



## krooser (Dec 23, 2009)

Mac...you need to explain how he needs to clean his stove... it couldn't hurt.


----------



## imacman (Dec 23, 2009)

krooser said:
			
		

> Mac...you need to explain how he needs to clean his stove... it couldn't hurt.



Well, he DID say he cleaned it in his first post, but i know nothing about his stove, so can't comment on how to do it.  Maybe a leaf blower treatment after some prodigious hammer banging on the firebox walls would help.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 23, 2009)

I do have the installation and operating instructions but it doesn't have a btu spec. There's stuff I can tell you, 4" intake, 2" exhaust, Marcom Industries STC-4 super controller, burn pot is about 3.5" diameter and about 2" deep. I've tried various combinations of auger off and auger on settings, one weird thing is that the "off" dip switches have values of 4, 8, 16, & 32 seconds in the on postition but I have all of them on and I'm only getting 30 seconds of "off" time. I should have 60 seconds with all of them on.

I've cleaned everything except the room fan, the draft butterfly, and the exhaust blower. The heat exchanger box is a bastage to clean but I got it. It has 12 1" diameter tubes going through it which are impossible to clean all the way around each one but with wire brushes and compressed air it's as clean as it's going to get.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 23, 2009)

Reading the maintenance sticky now, room fan must be at least part of the problem, high burn is only pushing air out of the front roughly 12" .... Getting a temp reading also for a "before - after" baseline. I'm not giving up on it. I must have 100 hours of work in this thing, seriously.


----------



## imacman (Dec 23, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> .... 4" intake, 2" exhaust......I've cleaned everything except the room fan....... and the exhaust blower.......



Are you sure about those 4" and 2" sizes??  Sounds like those are backwards.

Remove & clean BOTH blowers!!  The combustion blower may have a lot of soot/carbon buildup on the vanes, and the "room fan" (convection blower) could be plugged-up with dirt/dust bunnies, etc.....some of them also have lube ports on the motor for the shaft bearings, but not all.

BTW, you never mentioned your exhaust set=up.....type, length, bends, etc.


----------



## littlesmokey (Dec 23, 2009)

I don't think the stove is clean. put it on a dollie and take it outside and stick an air hose in every nook and cranny. One old stove I had did not show a baffle wall in the owners manual, but the two pounds of crud I blew out of it aided in finding the secret door. And clean those blowers and pipes. The exhaust pipe may be hiding a major blockage in a small turn and will dramatically affect the ability of the stove to heat. I am not familiar with the controls, but your auger on/off cycling seems unusually low. It needs to increase auger time dramatically to produce any significant heat. Remember, the ash is very small and will go everywhere. I did mine outside with my doors closed, what a mess, but it found the spots I could not see.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 23, 2009)

Yes, 4" intake is double wall pipe ducted to the outside, the 2" exhaust is singlewall steel flex running down the center of the 4" intake. Exactly how the installation shows. It's a straight, level, horizontal run right throught the wall approx. 5' in length, correct to the install. No blockage on either.

Low burn is giving me an output temp of 97F at a 12" distance. Horrible. Fuel feed is correct to the oem specs, I know I'm not getting the full 36 seconds of "off" .. I'm getting 30 seconds which is pretty close. Auger feed time values are correct with a 1/2" to 3/4" hot ember bed in the burn pot and a relaxed 6" flame height.

I'll have to pull both fans off and check the damper section aswell. Yeah, "room fan" is what the oem component diagram calls it, the other fan is called "exhaust blower" according to them. I am guessing at the fuel use over 24 hrs on high burn, it could be as much as 45 lbs or as little as 30-35 lbs, not exactly sure. Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 23, 2009)

Btw macman, The Three Stooges marathon is on AMC New Years Eve morning 7am and goes for 23 hours.

I am "stoogepower" on the Soitenly Stooges website and I'm in Curly's biography book at the Walk of Fame star dedication.


----------



## Pellet-King (Dec 23, 2009)

I have a older pellet stove in my garage, called a "Marlboro", maybe we can hook for a drag.........


----------



## MCPO (Dec 23, 2009)

As macman has already stated, you really need to clean both the combustion and room blower motors assemblies paying particular attention to the vanes. Not a lot of sense knocking your brains out and wasting pellets till this is accomplished.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 23, 2009)

BTW man-machine I forgot to welcome you to the forum, so welcome.

By now the regulars have blasted you with the clean the damn thing routine.

I figured that you’d catch on if told that it is at least a two step process.

1. Generate heat by burning pellets.
2. Extract as much of that heat as is possible.

The stove shop guy started out by saying in effect the blower is likely clogged so clean it.  He is absolutely correct, so remove, clean, and properly lubricate the convection fan system.

This also requires that the air path from the fan out through the hot air (funny right? no hot air) exit also be cleaned.  It is important that there is a clear area around your stove and that the grill that is adjacent to the convection fan is clear.  One has to actually have unrestricted access to the air they are going to suck through the blower system.

Now still in keeping with the heat exchanger on the burn side of things the entire surface area must be as clean as is reasonably possible to maintain otherwise the ash and crud acts as insulation.  This may entail removing a few baffles and playing using various stove torture devices etc…

Now I’ll shift to the burn side of things, last night I did a real quick and dirty calculation of how many pellets you were burning on high and arrived at 1.164 pounds an hour based upon the timings you gave me and a huge leap of faith on your auger system being fairly close to mine.  If you burn 30 pounds in 24 hours you are at 1.25 pounds an hour and at 35 pounds you are at 1.458 pounds an hour.  This is the low firing rate for a lot of stoves.

You are providing before efficiency issues get their bite out of your BTUs between 10250 and 11955 BTUs if you are burning really good quality pellets,  there should be a rating plate on the stove, would you please look for it and either PM me the information on it or post it on the forum.  I’m not likely to be able to carry on a chat using the forum because of the time differences and my schedule.

My conclusion is that the stove is being under fired and that you still have a bit of cleaning to do.

If you could provide me with the construction detail of your shop I can also run a heat loss calculation for the building.

Hope this helps.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 24, 2009)

Ok, it's on shutdown and in the process of cooling down. What a fiasco, what a debacle. As I'm sure many of you know Winston went out of business quite a while ago so dealer support is non existent. And specific maintenance instructions in the owner's manual steers me off to the old "consult your distributor" box canyon along with the "have your local dealer....." smear.

When I say I have 100 hours in this pile it isn't just because of this one problem, there were others. Like the fact all of the trim that holds the door glass in place started to fall off because the manufacturer thought it was a great idea to run self tapping screws into a slot in the aluminum extrusion about 1/8" deep. Brilliant. So I had to take all of that off and drill through holes and tap them 10-32 and remount everything (three pieces of glass, over 20 holes) with modified 10-32 flathead screws. Then another time I bought moisture damaged pellets that Country General had stored outside, sheesh I didn't know. They were all crumbly and of course that jammed the feed auger. Thats not the stove's fault but pissed me off none the less.

Another issue is the door being designed with three flat surfaces and two angles. It makes proper door sealing almost impossible unless the hinges are adjusted absolutely perfect. When I first got the stove the burn pot was so hashed the pellets would come out of the feed chute and go flying past the burn pot and pile up at the front of the door. So I had to fab a new front piece for the burn pot and weld that on. The draft control wouldn't stay in positon, it kept wanting to spring back so somewhere I didn't want it to be. Then the room fan speed control pot is another POS, the knob's control shaft has two flats on the end which should engage a keyslot inside the pot which is now stripped out, I have to reach inside there with a screwdriver to turn it.

Please excuse my frustration and/or ignorance but why would a unit like this be better than a industrial quality NG fired unit heater? I'll post pics asap, thank you all again for putting up with me and being as helpful as you are.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 24, 2009)

Thanks Smokey I will continue with getting both fans out and all passages cleaned. I tried to post pics but the site won't allow me. When I first got this stove I could tell it had been run a lot just by the way the front ledge on the burn pot was beat down to almost nothing. I'm curious to see just how messed up this thing is and how bad the problem is because of the poor performance it must really be bad. There's no btu rating on the stove's ID plate or in the owner's manual.

Construction details of my shop: 24' x 32' 8ft ceiling, fully finshed interior, fully insulated, 2 single car wide sectional doors that are insulated and one insulated entry door, concrete slab floor. Built new in 1995.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 24, 2009)

Can you scan the manual, I'll send you my email then you can attach the scanned manual in an email to me.

I'd really like to know the limits of that stove before mucking with the firing rate.

I suspect that the stove is capable of burning at least twice as many pellets as it is currently burning more likely 3 just unsure at the moment and want more information before I roll some calculations for firing, in particular I want to know if that puppy has a hi temperature limit shut off and that it hasn't been bypassed.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 24, 2009)

Sorry but the owner's manual won't be of any help, it's only 17 pages and only covers the installation and the basics of how to get it lit, draft control, and a few other things. No specs, wiring diagrams, or exploded parts views. And no way to scan it. The specs I got for fuel delivery was only three pages faxed to me by Edwards & Sons, they bought all the parts from Winston when Winston went belly-up.

I am no stranger to forums, I've been on the KTMTalk.com (motorcycle) forums for ages. There's a bunch of us that ride 1985-1995 KTM twostroke bigbores 440/500/550cc's and we always get that newb rank amatuer who comes on not knowing what he's got or what he's doing, you know, "that guy" ... Now on this site I'm "that guy" lol. Oh well, you're either the hammer or the nail.
Thanks a bunch gentlemen.


----------



## Excell (Dec 24, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Thanks Smokey I will continue with getting both fans out and all passages cleaned. I tried to post pics but the site won't allow me. When I first got this stove I could tell it had been run a lot just by the way the front ledge on the burn pot was beat down to almost nothing. I'm curious to see just how messed up this thing is and how bad the problem is because of the poor performance it must really be bad. There's no btu rating on the stove's ID plate or in the owner's manual.
> 
> Construction details of my shop: 24' x 32' 8ft ceiling, fully finshed interior, fully insulated, 2 single car wide sectional doors that are insulated and one insulated entry
> door, concrete slab floor. Built new in 1995.



 I also heat my garage with my pellet stove . I have no problem heating my garage in -35 deg weather I was working in a T shirt . On the coldest day I never used more than one bag of pellets .I did have to do a lot of work to get the big door sealed ,and that is an on going battle . 
  I think that you should be able to get more pellets threw it in 24hrs than you do . I would also look at how much combustion air it is getting . 
  You can post pics they just can't be to big . You should have a program that can make them smaller .


----------



## man-machine (Dec 24, 2009)

Interesting. I was hoping not to be using more than 40 lbs in 24 hrs, that seems a little on the expensive side @ $4.00 a bag. I would be out there a lot more if I didn't have this current problem. Both sectional doors are well sealed with lip seals from the outside and double lip closed cell foam on the bottoms.

I did reduce pic size to 760 pixels. Ah! I got it to work. Enlarge the pic and you can see the piece I added to the burn pot and how the glass trim was fixed with new screws.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 24, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Interesting. I was hoping not to be using more than 40 lbs in 24 hrs, that seems a little on the expensive side @ $4.00 a bag. I would be out there a lot more if I didn't have this current problem. Both sectional doors are well sealed with lip seals from the outside and double lip closed cell foam on the bottoms.
> 
> I did reduce pic size to 760 pixels. Ah! I got it to work. Enlarge the pic and you can see the piece I added to the burn pot and how the glass trim was fixed with new screws.



I've only got a minute here but you have the problem of first heating some 6144 cubic feet of air to temperature.   It takes close to an hour just to move that amount of air through the heat exchanger, if do not have outside air it will take even longer because you'll also be sucking air out of your building. 

Please note the following is based upon several assumptions, the shop has no windows or doors of less insulation value than a wall of R19 and a cap of R39 and the slab is of uninsulated normal construction of R1.47 and that there is no more than 1 air exchange per hour.

In order to maintain a temperature of 68F inside at 20F outside will require a net heating effort of 14,911 BTU/hour.

Please refer back to my post about your current high firing rate.  Hence the reason you have a very slow rise in temperature, your biggest heat loss is air infiltration followed by slab, wall, and cap.

Now I'm out of here until Saturday, have company and a rather large dinner to attend to.

Have a Merry Christmas everyone and keep warm.


----------



## imacman (Dec 24, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Interesting. I was hoping not to be using more than 40 lbs in 24 hrs, that seems a little on the expensive side @ $4.00 a bag. I would be out there a lot more if I didn't have this current problem. Both sectional doors are well sealed with lip seals from the outside and double lip closed cell foam on the bottoms.
> 
> I did reduce pic size to 760 pixels. Ah! I got it to work. Enlarge the pic and you can see the piece I added to the burn pot and how the glass trim was fixed with new screws.



Glad you got the pic to upload.  Maybe a pic of it burning now?

BTW, one 40lb. bag in 24 hrs in the winter is not too bad.  Most people are burning more than that.  

When you say the garage is "fully insulated", what does that mean?  Did you insulate it yourself?  Are you guessing it's fully insulated?  Is it insulated in the ceiling rafters?  R-ratings on the insulations?

Another question....where does the heated air come out?  From under that flap above the front glass, or through the slots in the top?


----------



## man-machine (Dec 24, 2009)

"Fully insulated" yes, the walls are insulated, roof is the standard gable type pitch with insulation in the flat part of the attic. No, I don't have the R ratings. Hot air comes out of the slot above the glass, correct, that's the only place it comes out. Still, shouldn't this thing be blowing out air hotter than 97F?

I can't show it burning, I have to take it apart. I'll describe the flame as being full pot width, 6" high, not too fiesty and sooting up the glass very little. Sound about right?


----------



## Excell (Dec 24, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> "Fully insulated" yes, the walls are insulated, roof is the standard gable type pitch with insulation in the flat part of the attic. No, I don't have the R ratings. Hot air comes out of the slot above the glass, correct, that's the only place it comes out. Still, shouldn't this thing be blowing out air hotter than 97F?
> 
> I can't show it burning, I have to take it apart. I'll describe the flame as being full pot width, 6" high, not too fiesty and sooting up the glass very little. Sound about right?



 It should be hotter than 97 for sure . It sounds like the heat exchanger is either covered in carbon or the heat is getting past it and going up the chimney .I don't know how that stove is put to gether so I can't help more . Does it have some kind of burn air control ? More air should make it leaner and hotter . On average you should be able to heat your garage with 40 lbs or less .I was just surprised that you couldn't get more than 35 lbs threw it on high .


----------



## man-machine (Dec 24, 2009)

No burn air control, just a draft butterfly. Manual says not to make the burn flame too perky otherwise the heat is being pushed through too quick. That does make sence. The flame heat is baffled through a heat exchanger box with 12 1" diameter pipes, the outsides of which are as clean and bare as I can get them. Maybe it's the inside of those pipes that are in poor condition?

I'm dreading this tear apart, I've done it before and had that heat exchanger box out. Now I have to do that again plus the two fans. I'd rather drink a gallon of bleach.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 25, 2009)

Bleach isn't good for your beer intake device.

Got a bit of time here and I ran a firing calculation.

If you keep the on times the same please reduce the off time to 16 seconds.  You will have to change your combustion fan speed and perhaps your damper to get a good flame the pellets should be active in the burn pot with a touch of blue above the pellets, the flame should be active, fairly tall and without black tips.   This change will fire the stove at 17,800 BTUs/hour on low and 23700 BTUs/hour on high.  Make your adjustments to the burn at the low firing rate.  I have no idea of the safeties that exist for that stove and am hesitant to attempt firing above 24000 BTUs/hour until I know the limits.

You may not be able to adjust the flame enough to stop the pellet bed from becoming too high.  In any event this is only one part of a part of what has to take place in order to heat that shop.  The new low firing rate is 2.17 pounds/hour and the new high is 2.88 pounds/hour.

Excell, 

Your setup may be much better insulated than his.  I can quickly run ball park heat loss calculations if I have detailed construction information.  As for any output air temperatures at 12 inches being an indication of poor heating or stove functioning,  one needs to consider the air flow through the device.  If the air flow is very large a low temperature is likely and a huge heat transfer may indeed be occurring.

Now, let's see I did mention brews.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 25, 2009)

There is no way to manually change the combustion fan speed that I know of. The exception to this being of course when it goes from low to high burn, I would assume the combustion fan speed jumps up to accept the higher fuel feed rate. I know the room fan speed jumps up on high burn, that part is obvious.

The room fan speed potentiometer (sp) only controls the room fan speed in the low burn mode. This according to the owner's manual and verified by me piddling wth it. On high burn the speed control is overidden. I will post more pics as the project continues. I know you are all dying to see the extremely rare and exotic Winston Pellet Stove WP24 inner workings, right?

(crickets chirping)


----------



## man-machine (Dec 25, 2009)

looks dirty


----------



## man-machine (Dec 25, 2009)

controls


----------



## man-machine (Dec 25, 2009)

Combustion fan... dirty yeah but not horribly bad. I will clean it.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 25, 2009)

Room fan. Dirty too but not all that bad either. Getting cleaned also.
Ducts and passages on both fans wern't too dirty, some crud but not a lot.
Moving onto heat exchanger now.


----------



## filburt (Dec 25, 2009)

I have used a Winston Stove for the past 20 + yrs. They have been out of business 10+ yrs, too bad the Winston Stove is one of the best ever made. In the past, I have been able to get replacement parts from a company in W. Virginia. They may be sold out. Your combustion motor takes a real beating as it moves all the hot gases to the vent pipe. If you can't get a replacement motor, it may be possible to have the worn out motor rebuilt by a motor shop. Keep your exhaust flue clean and the motor will last much longer. I have cleaned the flue with a brush, but now I just stick an electric leaf blower into the disconnected flue and blow it out once a year. Remember there is a vacuum inside the flue when the combustion motor is running. If you don't seem to be getting much heat, there may be a leak around the glass or the door seal. Keep these well sealed to have a good result. Clean your heat exchanger several times during the year. The best way to clean the exchanger is from the top of the stove by removing the plate and brushing out the air exchange tubes. The factory gasket is thin and fragile and probably will need to be replaced. Remember, you have negative pressure in the stove and don't want to suck out room air when the stove is running. On low, a 40# bag lasts me about 36 hrs. We never need to run it for any length of time higher than low. It really puts out heat. The circuit board has many safety built in which I think may not be working, such as an automatic shut down if the burn box overheats. After 20 years,, I don't trust these functions to be working properly, but I can't get a replacement board. I would guess that I have run about 40,000 lbs of pellets through my stove and it still is great. These stoves will need to have motors replaced once in a while and need to be cleaned regularly. Know what your burn should look like and when the flame gets lazy, fix it immediately.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 26, 2009)

Thanks. Both fan motors are in ok shape and all of that is now cleaned. It's the heat exchanger box I'm concerned about now, the pipes are covered with what looks like mineral deposits (you know what I mean) and a heavy duty wire wheel in an air grinder is hardly taking it off. I'll have to wait a few days until I get a chance to take it in and sandblast it. Sandblasting will do a better job of reaching in between the pipes anyways.

Nothing was as dirty as I thought it would be considering the problem. But I think I was choking the draft too much, the door glass would get black and sooty and running it like that will dirty up the heat exchanger a lot quicker. The scaley deposits on the tubes must be robbing me of at least some of the heat. Once they are clean and smooth they shouldn't dirty up so quick either. We'll see. You're right though, on low burn 40lbs will go past 24 hrs. Upping the feed rate and shortening the "off" time doesn't seem like the answer to more heat, it just seems to make a bigger sooty ashy mess and with the dirty buildup, less heat.

If, after all this work this thing doesn't perform well it's going to the dump. This is a joke. I could heat this shop with a NG fired heater for $60 a month with zero hassles, instant on, no wrestling with pellets ect. I'll bite the bullet and charge an industrial quality NG unit heater and be done with it.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 26, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Thanks. Both fan motors are in ok shape and all of that is now cleaned. It's the heat exchanger box I'm concerned about now, the pipes are covered with what looks like mineral deposits (you know what I mean) and a heavy duty wire wheel in an air grinder is hardly taking it off. I'll have to wait a few days until I get a chance to take it in and sandblast it. Sandblasting will do a better job of reaching in between the pipes anyways.
> 
> Nothing was as dirty as I thought it would be considering the problem. But I think I was choking the draft too much, the door glass would get black and sooty and running it like that will dirty up the heat exchanger a lot quicker. The scaley deposits on the tubes must be robbing me of at least some of the heat. Once they are clean and smooth they shouldn't dirty up so quick either. We'll see. You're right though, on low burn 40lbs will go past 24 hrs. Upping the feed rate and shortening the "off" time doesn't seem like the answer to more heat, it just seems to make a bigger sooty ashy mess and with the dirty buildup, less heat.
> 
> If, after all this work this thing doesn't perform well it's going to the dump. This is a joke. I could heat this shop with a NG fired heater for $60 a month with zero hassles, instant on, no wrestling with pellets ect. I'll bite the bullet and charge an industrial quality NG unit heater and be done with it.



You can do whatever you want with the stove, it will likely never heat that shop of yours considering the rate that it is being fired and the heat loss of the building.

I'd also expect that the auger timing change will also result in a slightly faster rpm in the combustion motor and thus increase the air flow through the pot.  Your primary combustion air control is likely your damper.   

You can not expect  12,000 BTUs/hour (what you are getting before efficiency issues) to do the work of 15,000 BTUs/hour (likely the minimum you'll need after efficiency issues), the laws of thermodynamics just no worky that way.

As for the economics of NG over pellets that depends upon the cost of each at your location.  The cost of NG at this location would involve two miles of pipe etc.  Not likely to happen in my lifetime, housing density just isn't there for the utility company to put it in.

Without the manuals this is all try it and see.  Just keep a close eye on it.

As for filburt's concern about the safeties on the stove.  If you can read the numbers off of the snap discs you should be able to locate replacements.  The way most stoves are set up the safeties are such that the control board doesn't actually get involved except to perhaps flash a code.  

Now it is possible that the hi limit snap disc won't open and that is the puppy I'd be concerned with with the firing rate change.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 26, 2009)

Sorry for the bitterness but I'm sure you can understand my frustration. I would expect a stove this size to heat 768 sq ft even if it is on a bare concrete slab and not blow out a 97F temp on low burn, that's just pitiful. I'll see what I gain after sandblasting the heat exchanger tubes, it better be a lot otherwise I'm screwed. A few more things to consider:

1) The stove has an infared phototransistor located under the fuel drop chute at the rear of the burnchamber. It is aimed at the combustion chamber and looks for a flame. (I'm using the termanology straight from the book) Odd thing is the two leads are not connected to anything an there is absolutely no where to conect them to. Nothing. They are even tagged with an initialed "tested" tag from the factory. According to the book this is more of a safety thing than being related to burn performance, it says it looks for a flame in event the power goes out and comes back on ect. ect.

2) Both fan motors are single speed 3k rpm. They say so on the labels. The controller must boost or cut voltage to obtain high and low speeds. I'm only sure of the room fan running at two speeds, that part is obvious but the combustion fan I'm not sure of. I guess I could go out back while it's running and make sure the exhaust is hitting two different levels.

Again I appreciate the help you guys are giving on my behalf. I am trying to furnish info that is concise to what's going on.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 26, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Sorry for the bitterness but I'm sure you can understand my frustration. I would expect a stove this size to heat 768 sq ft even if it is on a bare concrete slab and not blow out a 97F temp on low burn, that's just pitiful. I'll see what I gain after sandblasting the heat exchanger tubes, it better be a lot otherwise I'm screwed. A few more things to consider:
> 
> 1) The stove has an infared phototransistor located under the fuel drop chute at the rear of the burnchamber. It is aimed at the combustion chamber and looks for a flame. (I'm using the termanology straight from the book) Odd thing is the two leads are not connected to anything an there is absolutely no where to conect them to. Nothing. They are even tagged with an initialed "tested" tag from the factory. According to the book this is more of a safety thing than being related to burn performance, it says it looks for a flame in event the power goes out and comes back on ect. ect.
> 
> ...



Yes you have it correct the control board does in fact vary the voltage to control the speed of the motor.  

Please believe me when I say I understand completely your frustration, been there, done that, didn't exactly care for it.   

However no one on this planet has ever overturned the laws of thermodynamics, you need to fire that stove at a rate that exceeds the heat loss of the structure in order to first increase then hold the temperature at a specific value.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 26, 2009)

Thanks again. I'll post after the sandblasting and reconstruction to see what was gained as far as temp output. I'd like a gain of at least 50% over 97F on low burn. Right now the heat exchanger box it out and there is no easy way to clean the inside where the room fan blows through. I tried banging it around and 100psi compressed air but can you thing of anything else? High pressure hot water at the car wash perhaps? I'm looking for any and all possible gains.


----------



## filburt (Dec 27, 2009)

If your glass gets a heavy soot on it, it is probably one of three problems. 
1) The heat exchanger is blocked as the exhaust fumes are being vented.
2) Your vent flue has a block in it after the combustion gases go through the exhaust fan. Probably it is a good idea to never damper the exhaust air. 
3) You are using crappy pellets. (Unlikely)

You mentioned a scale like deposit on the heating exchange tubes. I have burned somewhere between 40,000 and 80,000 lbs of pellets and my heating tubes look like new and are are easy to clean. My guess it that some inferior pellets were burned that were made from timber that spent some time soaking in salt water and that the mineral deposits are actually sodium chloride. You might try just a damp rag overnight soaking to see if you can dissolve the mineral deposits. Even if you have mineral deposits on the heat exchange tubes you should still get a good heat transfer.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 27, 2009)

I think if I leave no dampening or very little dampening I can get away with running a much higher fuel feed rate. That "relaxed" flame that I mention might be what's killing me. On the other hand when I run the fiesty-looking flame the pellets hit the burn pot and the red embers go fly up into the heat exchanger. Is that bad or good? I mean is the flame supposed to look like a roaring blowtorch? According to the manual thats too much combustion air, or so it says. But I'd take the lean, clean flame over the sooty, ashy mess. That would have to be the less of two evils.

I'm going to have to figure out a way to re-gasket the flange surfaces where the combustion fan housing mates to the other duct component. All that white cotton-like material (please name what it is if you know) got shredded when I took it apart. There is also that other simular material on the bulkhead-type firewall that seperates the front from the back. I'm sure some of you must know what it is called, it's white and fluffy on one side and a dark grey charcoal colored texured paper-like material on the other. I need more of that. I guess I could call Woodstove Warehouse and see if they have it in bulk.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 27, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> I think if I leave no dampening or very little dampening I can get away with running a much higher fuel feed rate. That "relaxed" flame that I mention might be what's killing me. On the other hand when I run the fiesty-looking flame the pellets hit the burn pot and the red embers go fly up into the heat exchanger. Is that bad or good? I mean is the flame supposed to look like a roaring blowtorch? According to the manual thats too much combustion air, or so it says. But I'd take the lean, clean flame over the sooty, ashy mess. That would have to be the less of two evils.
> 
> I'm going to have to figure out a way to re-gasket the flange surfaces where the combustion fan housing mates to the other duct component. All that white cotton-like material (please name what it is if you know) got shredded when I took it apart. There is also that other simular material on the bulkhead-type firewall that seperates the front from the back. I'm sure some of you must know what it is called, it's white and fluffy on one side and a dark grey charcoal colored texured paper-like material on the other. I need more of that. I guess I could call Woodstove Warehouse and see if they have it in bulk.



man-machine,

You can get gasket material in large sheets from, some stove shops, HVAC dealers, auto supply stores and on the web.  You just have to make certain it has the correct temperature rating and can make a gas tight seal.   It is sometimes called Lynn Sheet.

The other stuff you should talk to a stove shop or boiler company.

I have no doubt that your stove can be fired at a higher rate than it was changing those dip switches  should also change the voltage the combustion motor sees etc ....


----------



## filburt (Dec 28, 2009)

I have never tried to damper my stove since it is an insert and vent dampering would be nearly impossible. You may have a different model that runs a bit differently. I have always felt that the hot embers that come out of the burn pot are a necessary function for keeping the burn pot empty. When I get soot on the window , the flame starts looking lazy, the sparks stop flying around,and byproducts start accumulating in the burn pot, something is wrong and needs to be corrected.  The embers that fly around when another dump of pellets occurs have never been a problem. Most of them just burn out and end up in  the ash tray as fly ash. I suppose a few of them are sucked up through the combustion fan, but that has never been a problem. I have been up on my roof when the stove is running and the exhaust gases are cool to the touch. To me that means the heat exchanger works efficiently and little heat is lost up the chimney. I clean the heat exchanger two or three time a year and blow out the exhaust flue once a year. If you have a screened rain cap one the end of your exhaust flue, make sure that isn't plugged with creosote or fly ash. I think if you try to restrict the exhaust fumes, you will significantly increase solid emissions and creosote.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 28, 2009)

The pellets should be active (actually moving around, this is called the pellet dance) in the burn pot with a touch of blue above the pellets, the flame should be active (closer to white in color with a tinge of yellow) , fairly tall and without black tips.

With a flame like that you will have embers ejecting whenever more pellets enter the burn pot and whenever the pellets get small enough that they are essentially changing to ash. 

The air flow keeps the pellet pile from building and over flowing the burn pot.  There should always be a bit of the bottom of the pot visible.

filburt, man-machine has a free standing unit there are pictures in the thread.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 28, 2009)

Spice up this topic with a little dirtbike action near Moab.
I posted the pellet stove on the dirtbike site so now we're even.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 28, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Spice up this topic with a little dirtbike action near Moab.
> I posted the pellet stove on the dirtbike site so now we're even.




Mods, please reduce the points on this thread, now if you had posted a really hot topic maybe the pyros on here would be happy.

If it is dirt bike pics they have to have afterburners ;-) .


----------



## man-machine (Dec 28, 2009)

There goes my promotion from "firestarter" to "burning chunk" at 22 posts ... blah

Any-hoo I'll try a new stratagy of wide open draft control and increased fuel feed and see what that does. To heck with being a skinflint on pellet usage, I need real heat .. do or die. The auger is about 1.5" in diameter if that is of any help. Hey, you guys are awesome and I'm very impressed with the level of knowledge. Btw, after shutdown I was ending up with big hunks of cold embers in the burn pot whatever that means.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 29, 2009)

SmokeyTheBear... Many, many thanks for going the extra mile to be of assistance. I found out my fax-copier-printer will also scan so I will get the owner's manual scanned into a file which will then be e-sent to you and whoever else has an interest in reading it.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 29, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear... Many, many thanks for going the extra mile to be of assistance. I found out my fax-copier-printer will also scan so I will get the owner's manual scanned into a file which will then be e-sent to you and whoever else has an interest in reading it.



There ya go.   Them thar newy fandangled thingys have to be good fer something.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 29, 2009)

And macman, I hope the rear pic explains the 4" intake and 2" exhuast, you can see how one is inside the other.
As for the temp switches, two are mounted side by side on the combustion fan housing. One is adjustable/variable and set at 110F.. I'm assuming for the room fan to kick on, the other is a fixed setting type, must be for overheating safety shutdown I would think.

I'm still trying to get more pics posted but the resizing site I'm using is getting buggy and is somehow sidetracked on a lengthy downloading process, not sure why.


----------



## imacman (Dec 29, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> And macman, I hope the rear pic explains the 4" intake and 2" exhuast, you can see how one is inside the other.......



yep M-M, I did see that in the pic....weird!


----------



## man-machine (Dec 29, 2009)

So what about sealing some of these mating surfaces, like the combustion fan housing to it's related components?

I take it high-temp red silicone isn't a good idea? The stuff does easily withstand the temps on the exhaust flange of my liquid cooled two-stroke engine, which is probably well below 400F. But this application on a pellet stove, I dunno. The reason I ask is these are complex die-cut shapes from the oem out of the white fluffy material I mentioned earlier. They would be a major hassle to cut out by hand from bulk material. They probably arn't available from Edwards & Sons who took over from when Winston went out of business. I could call and find out though.

No point in doing it in an insane and rediculous manner (using high temp silicone) if that's not going to work.
I will also ask Vern at E&S what the btu rating is on this stove also. He told me last time but I forgot.
And the 4" intake is strictly for the combustion fan, nothing else. Room fan uses static air from inside the cabinet.


----------



## imacman (Dec 29, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> So what about sealing some of these mating surfaces, like the combustion fan housing to it's related components?
> 
> I take it high-temp red silicone isn't a good idea? The stuff does easily withstand the temps on the exhaust flange of my liquid cooled two-stroke engine, which is probably well below 400F.



We use the red Hi Temp silicone on our sprint cars headers to seal against the cylinder head, and that's WAY hotter than the pellet stove comb. fan housing, so if you don't mind having to scrape it off and re-apply each time you clean the blower, go for it.  It DOES make sealing irregular surfaces much easier.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 29, 2009)

Ok, I'll try the red RTV high temp silicone as a sealer, thanks.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 29, 2009)

temp switches, with the variable one on the left


----------



## man-machine (Dec 29, 2009)

Part way through the teardown, hopper removed, comb fan assembly removed (LH vacancy) room fan (right)
Grey insulation on bulkhead (firewall thingy) is all falling apart.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 29, 2009)

Heat exchanger, pre-sandblast


----------



## imacman (Dec 29, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Heat exchanger, pre-sandblast



How big is that heat exchanger?  It looks small in the pic, but I can't be sure.  If it's the size I think it is, and only 3 tubes, I can see why you get no heat....

BTW, it doesn't look all that dirty to begin with, IMO.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 29, 2009)

How big is that heat exchanger? 

11" x 6" x 6" overall ... the tubes themselves are 9" long, 1" diameter ... 3 rows 5 tubes deep per row = 15 tubes.

I got the BTU rating. They said 9,000 to 32,000 BTUs. (low to high variable, right?)


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 29, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> How big is that heat exchanger?
> 
> 11" x 6" x 6" overall ... the tubes themselves are 9" long, 1" diameter ... 3 rows 5 tubes deep per row = 15 tubes.
> 
> I got the BTU rating. They said 9,000 to 32,000 BTUs. (low to high variable, right?)



Which means you can use the firing rates I mentioned and a bit more.

macman,  

That exchanger may look small but it really isn't.   As long as the fan can move the right volume of air that should suffice.


----------



## Ronniebabe (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi guys! first time on the forum....A friend bought some winston stuff, I have some and have been selling it on ebay, blower motors, auger motors, auger screws, etc....I thought  he bought all of winstons stuff...I don't know about Edwards and Sons...I still have a few circuit boards left, and they'er 2 diff. boards...auger motors are 6 rmp, but I found a few reverse auger motors too...I got the stove that was used for ul.. testing and it cooks! can't use it on high, too hot..I also got a small stove but have problems getting it up to par...I know nothing about stoves, but have a lot of parts.....If I can help let me know, I sold all the motors, over 2,000 of'em...some at $10.00 each..but still have about 100 augers left, my stove has no chain drive auger, its direct, but I have chains and gears...
 thanks
 and let me know if I can help..P.S. I'd  love to have a manual...I thought the stove was called a Weston, mine has no labels or badges...


----------



## man-machine (Dec 29, 2009)

Cool deal Ronnie. Edwards & Sons: Lucy and Vernon are very helpful. 540-249-4241

Mine has no labels or badges either. Look on the back panel, ID plate should be riveted on.
Freestanding stoves I only know of the WP24 and the WP18.

The "Installation & Operating Instructions" arn't much .. 21 pages 8-1/2" by 5-1/2" .. better than nothing.

I do have three supplemental service pages faxed to me by E&S which cover the fuel feedrates via the dipswitches.

Send your file requests to me so I can bounce it right back (well, soon anyways) at:

stoogepowersix@yahoo.com


----------



## imacman (Dec 29, 2009)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> macman,
> 
> That exchanger may look small but it really isn't.   As long as the fan can move the right volume of air that should suffice.



OK, I see the extra rows of tubes behind the front ones.  Still, doesn't seem great design wise.  I would think that since the convection air flows from back to front, that the front 2 or 3 rows would be somewhat "shielded" by the previous rows, and not allow the air to fully circulate around them.

I would think that staggering them, one up, one down, etc, would have forced the air around them more.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 30, 2009)

Sorry macman I didn't show the top and bottom cover plates. Each one has a baffle piece welded to it in a staggered layout. The fire's heat does a series of u-turns, kinda hard to explain but it goes up between two rows of tubes, makes a u-ey, goes down and does it again. And again.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 30, 2009)

Okay! All done and put back together. O-M-G what a difference. Even with the damper all the way closed the thing still rages big time. I'm still dinkering with it, but this is low burn, 50% damper closed, 30 seconds off and 6 seconds of feed.

Output temp is hot. Way hot, I'm guessing like 140-150F ... No more 97F! ... Looks like I got my 50% improvement and then some.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 30, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Okay! All done and put back together. O-M-G what a difference. Even with the damper all the way closed the thing still rages big time. I'm still dinkering with it, but this is low burn, 50% damper closed, 30 seconds off and 6 seconds of feed.
> 
> Output temp is hot. Way hot, I'm guessing like 140-150F ... No more 97F! ... Looks like I got my 50% improvement and then some.



Now you can understand why the folks here hit you hard with the clean the stove routine, just wait until you change the firing rate a bit.

That reminds me, I should up mine for a bit considering it is 7°F and gusting to 23MPH.


----------



## imacman (Dec 30, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Okay! All done and put back together. O-M-G what a difference. Even with the damper all the way closed the thing still rages big time. I'm still dinkering with it, but this is low burn, 50% damper closed, 30 seconds off and 6 seconds of feed.
> 
> Output temp is hot. Way hot, I'm guessing like 140-150F ... No more 97F! ... Looks like I got my 50% improvement and then some.



Yep, that looks good!  As Smokey said, these stoves need to be kept clean.....you now have first hand experience what a real deep clean will do for you.

Good luck, and enjoy the heat (finally!  LOL)


----------



## man-machine (Dec 30, 2009)

Yeah well please 'scuse my ignorance but I kept reading and reading the manual over and over and all it said was to keep the burn pot clean and to clean the heat exchanger once in a while. That's all. And I've had this thing all the way apart before because I think the former owner was beating on the heat exchanger with a hammer. Seriously. He was doing it from underneath and couldn't see the damage he did to one of the heat exchanger tubes. It was collapsed in split down the middle.

Fortunately I was able to take the box out, clamp it to my milling machine table and mill the bad tube out and leave nice square sides where it was. Then I got an accurate measurement and faced a new piece of stainless tube for a .003" interference fit, tapped it in postion and brazed it in place. Machine tools at home is like having a magic wand. He-he

But yeah, whoever said earlier on to pay paticular attention to the fan blades was right. The comp fan impeller didn't seem all that dirty but it only takes a little bit of crud for the blades to lose their right angles and sharp corners and not work nearly as well. Fact noted. There's still an issue with the door not closing perfectly and needing to get the hinges adjusted just right. There's a tiny, tiny gap along the front. And a weird new-kinda smell that is burning off. Getting the draft and fuel feeding right is sort of fun, like jetting a dirtbike for a lovely dry dark brown plug color. Now I'm an "emberneck" like the rest of you mugs. Can't thank you enough gentlemen.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 30, 2009)

Hey, that's what all us pellet stove crazies are good at.

Remember we ain't there so we can't peek up inside the little beasties and say hey, gov, you have a big pile o crap in your flue, best ye clean it out.  

Some folks are hard on their things and some like a lot of us baby the devices since we want them to work and we are a little (except for macman who is a lot) crazy ;-) .

With these things one glaring problem or a lot of unseen little things can cause them not to function correctly if at all.

As near as most of us can tell most of the manuals were meant to send you back to the dealer for simple service tasks.   Most folks on here think they are less than useful at times. 

Now when are you going to put the pellet afterburners on that dirt bike  ;-P , no pellet afterburners no extra Mod points  :lol: ?

Enjoy the heat and remember to drop in and say hi from time to time.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 30, 2009)

Whodda thunk there would be forums for pellet stoves? Usually forums are for important stuff, you know, like vintage Corvettes, antique aircraft, and 500cc 65hp two-stroke dirtbikes. lol, j/k. Of course keeping warm is important, let's not be silly.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 30, 2009)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Whodda thunk there would be forums for pellet stoves? Usually forums are for important stuff, you know, like vintage Corvettes, antique aircraft, and 500cc 65hp two-stroke dirtbikes. lol, j/k. Of course keeping warm is important, let's not be silly.



Whoa, hold on now being silly is a required non optional part of using these interweby thingys call forums.  Otherwise peeps think you are uptight.

Have a good one man-machine.   I just finished cleaning my beast (sorta weekly ash removal from all of the easy places) and as soon as it finishes its startup I've got other things to do.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 30, 2009)

Btw fwiw I did buy one bag of those "Nature's Heat" pellets from WalMart just to try them out. They were cheap, like $3.74 a bag and they're pretty darn good, I was suprised. I dunno if I'll be around long enough to be picked up by the Hearth.com Gulfstream corporate jet for the moderator's convention in Vegas. With a "burning chunk" status I may have to ride in the wheelwell.

So should I leave this thing with a 30 second off time and just keep tapping up the feedrate or shorten the off time to say like 18 seconds and have it feed fuel for a shorter time but more often? What's that insider term again? "Striking sequence" or something? It sounded cool, like the assualt rifle thing where the "mission profile" is shooting at beer cans.


----------



## imacman (Dec 30, 2009)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> ....and we are a little (except for macman who is a lot) crazy ;-) ......


Hey Smokey, I resemble that remark!   :lol:


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 31, 2009)

man-machine, how about emailing me the scanned manual and that dip switch data and I'll send you some firing rates with pellet consumption estimates.


----------



## man-machine (Dec 31, 2009)

Ok Smokey I'll try ... yahoo isn't letting me login as of right now.

Overnight test results were inspiring. 7F temp overnight, used low burn, variable room fan speed set medium, draft 50%, feed set 6 on 30 off, went from 39F at 8pm to 68F at 8am ... PERFECT. Used way less than 20 lbs. Wow, am I pleased.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 1, 2010)

All's well that ends well. Even when I had this stove "professionally serviced" by the tech from the local independent dealer (Woodstove Warehouse) all he did was brush and ShopVac the heat exchanger. The same thing I've been doing up to this point. Granted this teardown was a 12 hour ordeal, I was hand scrubbing parts in the kitchen sink, wire wheeling every bolt and screw, and retapping every threaded hole for ease of reassembly. That's how I do things, nothing ever get slapped back together without 100% attention to detail. That's why the 12 hours.

Sandblasting the heat exchanger wasn't totally needed but I was after brand new performance. I might have a 5-10% heat output with that, maybe a little less I dunno but in my own mind it was worth it.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 1, 2010)

Every little bit helps.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 1, 2010)

If nothing else sandblasting the heat exchanger gives me a bare metal baseline to see what kind of buildup I get from here on out.

I think now I am probably good for at least two tons or four heating seasons depending on how much I'm out there. I'm seeing now that this stove was new in 1986, it had to be used somewhere else before being installed in this shop which was built new in 1995 as I mentioned before. Final thanks to all involved, if you need something machined hit me up, I owe ya.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 3, 2010)

Now I think I'm hosed. I went out there after shutting it down and the burn pot was overfed with pellets and the fuse was blown. The auger is jammed but I disconnected the drive chain and put it a new fuse, powered it up and a big crackle and puff of smoke came out of the controller box.


----------



## filburt (Jan 7, 2010)

Sorry your pellet stove is toast. If you are still interested in a pellet stove, try northern tool. They have  a propel stove at 1199 on sale. It has a 120# hopper(3 bags)
You also get a tax credit on the stove. Great price for the big stove, but I don't know of any recommendations for this stove. You can find Northern tool on line and see other stoves including vent free propane. Good luck


----------



## man-machine (Jan 7, 2010)

Oh I'm cool. Site member Ronniebabe hooked me up with a new control panel for cheap.

Back in the heat here soon.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 7, 2010)

That's good to hear as there wasn't much any of us could do since we didn't have a circuit diagram, manual, or even decent pictures of the guts of the control panel.  Before you put it in and fire it up, you did get that funny material that was flaking off things replaced right?  Electronics and motors and such really hate high temperatures so if that was the primary insulation shield it needs to be there.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 7, 2010)

I have the manual scanned if you want to see it. Yes, I'm getting the insulation replaced, Woodstove Warehouse is calling it "ceramic insulation" but they only have the one kind that has no backing on it, I'm still trying to find exactly the right stuff. The stuff that does have the backing on it, just like the oem material.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 7, 2010)

board front


----------



## man-machine (Jan 7, 2010)

board back, toasted lower left corner


----------



## man-machine (Jan 7, 2010)

stripped cabinet, electronics enclosure on the right


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 7, 2010)

That insulation was some kind of mineral bat and not a ceramic board.   Make certain it is replaced before using the stove or you are likely to fry your new board.

It is likely to start with the motors closest to the firebox and progress to the control electronics because the mechanical parts seize up and that in turn will overload the electronics (fuses are well known for being protected by faster blowing electronics), then the electronics go poof afterwards the fuse may or may not  go poof.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 7, 2010)

You would think with both the combustion fan and the room fan running and the rear cover panel being nothing but slots the cabinet would be drawing in a fair amount of cool air on a regular basis but I won't rely on that. If it had insulation to begin with then it should again. There's only a small section missing on one side of the bulkhead/firewall thingy but yeah, it should be replaced. I see other "bald" sections that never had insulation that could use more insulation aswell. More = more gooder-er-er.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 8, 2010)

Thats why I was asking about using the red RTV high temp silicone to join the combustion fan squirrel cage housing to it's related components. It seems the silicone wouldn't have the heat isolating properties that the oem insulation material has.

Now I'm a little leary of what I did. The oem used insulation to gasket everything and I probably should be too. Instead of wondering which component is going to be cooked off next (including the electronics of the new control panel) in a cascading event of heat related failures. Aaaarrrg.... Looks like a do-over.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 8, 2010)

The normal gasket material for those blowers provides almost zero thermal insulation and what that is is offset by the screws, etc... used to fasten them on with.   What gets really hot is the areas that the fiber bats are used to protect flammable materials such as pellets.  There is a reason why Winston stoves had that material where it was, most likely to stop something from frying or torching off.

I know what having a motor close to the firebox can do from first hand experience.  I'm on convection blower number three as a result.  Latest one came with an adapter to place the blower further away from and lower than the firebox (can you say oops ?) ;-) .


----------



## filburt (Jan 8, 2010)

I used Rutland high temp stove gasket cement to seal air leaks on the glass stovefront. It is rated for 2000 degrees and is black.Again, I didn't use it to seal gaskets but to plug air leaks in the front of the stove. It is still intact after 2 years. I replaced gaskets on the fans with a braided heavy gasket that had a peel off adhesive on one side. Easy to seal and much tougher than anything else I could find.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 9, 2010)

Funny thing well not really funny is the fact that right after the electronics board took a dump the room fan motor did too. I oiled it recently before this last resurection but right after the board smoked I put power to the comb fan to test it and it worked fine. Then put power to the room fan and it did one tiny "ugh" sound and that was it, no more running.

So going back to the oil thing, I noticed some oily spooge on the fan's mounting bracket that smelled like oily burnt laquer. It's hard to say WTH is going on with this stove, it's listed as being tested (new) in 1988 so with 20 some-odd years on it I can't tell if it's just age and use or if I'm a chump for believing it's ever going to work right. Last time it ran I was getting mean, nasty, and aggressive with the firing rate on high burn and going a little over twice what the factory recommended settings were. I hate to think I toasted the room fan with an overfiring heat buildup but I didn't have 100% of the missing insulation in place on the sheetmetal bulkhead / firewall -or- the motor was just old -or- I overfired it -OR- 1, 2, or various levels of all three.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 13, 2010)

Back in business. New complete control panel & room (convection) fan assembly. Went back to factory recommended feed settings kicked up just a touch. Satisfied with heat output, pellet use, and how clean it's staying. A big, big, problem with this stove is the door seal, any leaks and the flame is pitifully lazy and sooty. Easy to tell when the seal isn't sealing because the draft control will have very little effect on the flame. I don't need cranking 74F temps out here, anything above 55-60F or so and I'm fine. Especially when it's single digits outside. Rocking!


----------



## imacman (Jan 13, 2010)

man-machine said:
			
		

> Back in business. New complete control panel & room (convection) fan assembly. Went back to factory recommended feed settings kicked up just a touch. Satisfied with heat output, pellet use, and how clean it's staying. A big, big, problem with this stove is the door seal, any leaks and the flame is pitifully lazy and sooty. Easy to tell when the seal isn't sealing because the draft control will have very little effect on the flame. I don't need cranking 74F temps out here, anything above 55-60F or so and I'm fine. Especially when it's single digits outside. Rocking!



Glad to hear you got it back up and running......got my fingers crossed for ya.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 13, 2010)

Hey that's good to see.


Now treat that thing right.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 13, 2010)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Hey that's good to see.
> 
> 
> Now treat that thing right.



Hey now, that stupid thing has been getting the rock star treatment. Pampered to the hilt. I'm a little disappointed the only replacement fan assembly I could get cheap ($30) and new is about 1/3 smaller than the original. It works ok for an open cube-type area but in a house it wouldn't push heat down hallways or through a house very well. No biggy. It's a lot more quiet. I went outside and felt the exhuast and there's very little heat being lost, most of the heat is going where it should.

Burned a bag with very little ash in the combustion chamber deck area. No sooty black stuff, just that very light grey dusting tinge on the glass and whatnot. On shutdown mode it will finish out and leave the burn pot empty so I guess thats good right? I'm tempted to boost up the firing rate but I just love how clean it's burning and want to keep that regardless.... It's like a carbed dirtbike with perfect jetting. Voonderbah!


----------



## man-machine (Jan 13, 2010)

The trick to getting the door adjusted was to switch the hinge mounting fasteners from 1/4"-20 hexhead bolts to 1/4"-20 sockethead (Allen) buttonheads.... Then drill and mill these crappy looking access hole/slots so the door hinges can be adjusted and tightened while the door is in proper postition when closed. Both the hinge brackets and the cabinet were slotted by the oem and to try to adjust them perfectly without being able to tighten or loosen them will put you on the fast track to the loony bin.

The answer is of course to cheat. You would think man-machine would mill preportionally correct access slots all nice and neat.
I'm over it, the door seals nicely.


----------



## filburt (Jan 13, 2010)

Sounds like you're getting it right. That fine gray film on the window is normal. Black soot is not. The door gasket has been a problem for me over the past 20 yrs. I used some braided gasket with an adhesive back  just inside the door edge and made a second gasket. Works great and check the periphery of the gasket with an inch or so of paper closed in the door. If it's tight it's OK. The glass door will also give you a hint if you have a door leak. Look for a flame like area of clean glass that does not have the fine gray film from burning. There is a leak near the clean glass area. The glass should be uniformly gray when there are no leaks. Soot and a lazy flame suggest a door leak. The forge or blow torch flame is what you want.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 13, 2010)

filburt said:
			
		

> The forge or blow torch flame is what you want.



That's interesting and correct to you, me and many others. But the owner's manual says the flame shouldn't be "too excited" and I don't agree with that. The relaxed flame was the dirty, sooty flame and the roaring blowtorch runs clean. I'd rather overfeed combustion air, loose a little heat (maybe) and keep the whole operation as clean as possible than go the dirty route.

I have the manual as a file now and I'll try and get some of the pages posted up. Thanks.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 13, 2010)

man-machine said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Treating it right means clean properly on a regular basis, replace bad gaskets, use proper fuel, etc... .  If that is done that puppy will outlast most of the folks that post here.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 13, 2010)

man-machine said:
			
		

> The trick to getting the door adjusted was to switch the hinge mounting fasteners from 1/4"-20 hexhead bolts to 1/4"-20 sockethead (Allen) buttonheads.... Then drill and mill these crappy looking access hole/slots so the door hinges can be adjusted and tightened while the door is in proper postition when closed. Both the hinge brackets and the cabinet were slotted by the oem and to try to adjust them perfectly without being able to tighten or loosen them will put you on the fast track to the loony bin.
> 
> The answer is of course to cheat. You would think man-machine would mill preportionally correct access slots all nice and neat.
> I'm over it, the door seals nicely.



Yup them slotted adjustment can indeed put you in the loony bin, but then I don't know about you or most folks, but I find myself in the loony bin from time to time when doing battle with only two front paws and needing at least three.

Have a good one man-machine.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 13, 2010)

Now I shall practice what I preach and do a bit of cleaning as it is slightly past due by the bag count.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 13, 2010)

I replaced my door seal and found this operation to be somewhat of an art form. I'm sure it's been covered but a few things I noted:

The new seal material has to go into the slot sort of bunched up into itself, not pulled tight. This is really important on my stove because the door has those angled sections. Where the flat section makes the radius turn into the next flat section the gasket material has to be pooched out, otherwise there will be a gap there.

Trimming the ends with angles helps as opposed to doing a straight butt joint. The straight butt joint ends up being frayed and leaving a gap. The angles can meet as a visible joint or one end can overlay the other. Either way seems to work fine.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 13, 2010)

Yup, you never stretch out a door gasket on a stove or for that matter most other gaskets.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 13, 2010)

My only real complaint on this stove is the darn door. They should have made it flat. The design is appealing appearance wise but the door sealing is too important to be compromised by function following form. 

I still want the appropriate oem size convection fan, maybe even a tiny bit bigger.


----------



## filburt (Jan 13, 2010)

Did you try Edwards and Sons to try to get Winston replacement  parts? They bought up the entire inventory abut 15 yrs ago. They are located in W Virginia


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 13, 2010)

You mean like this?


----------



## man-machine (Jan 13, 2010)

filburt said:
			
		

> Did you try Edwards and Sons to try to get Winston replacement  parts? They bought up the entire inventory abut 15 yrs ago. They are located in W Virginia



I ended up contacting site member Ronniebabe who posted in this topic. Him and his associate have quite a bit of Winston NOS (new old stock) and that's where I got the new complete control panel and the blower assembly.

E&S has been very helpful and I will be using both parts sources as needed depending on who has what. E&S said they are getting very short on electronics for Winstons.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 15, 2010)

I'm still dinkering around with stuff. Thought I tear apart the old convection fan motor just to see why it quit. It's a shaded pole TEFC motor.

Wow! There was a broken wire on one of the windings but thats minor compared to what I saw. It was ROASTED inside. I mean cooked. Black, burnt, pieces of charred insulation and cooked off oil and laquer. I try to look at the bright side of this, I mean having a 20 year old stove with so many problems one after another. I'm learning a lot. If I was rich and bought a brand new stove I wouldn't find and solve so many problems and see so many different things. Like the new age yuppie geeks say:
"They're not problems, they're challenges" ... kinda true.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 15, 2010)

Yup, nothing like the smell of melting enamel before breakfast.  Seriously that is the reason for the insulation that was back in that area.  It is the same as what was slowly going to happen to the convection blower on my stove.   You just got it done a lot quicker.  About buying a new one, I'll just say this, a lot of them have more than their "fair" share of issues.  The new age yuppie geeks will at some time come to the conclusion that those challenges are actually problems.  It does indeed come full circle.

I'm glad you are learning and really getting to know that stove as you'll have to do all of the heavy lifting associated with keeping it running.  At least you have no delusions about how simple and easy it is to maintain and aren't likely to figure that stove shop people will pour through your front door dragging the manufacturers rep with them the second the stove acts up.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 15, 2010)

Funny you should mention "heavy lifting". When I do the serious teardown work I push the stove over in front of my toolbox and raise it up on two milk crates. So much easier. I'm laid off work right now and spend days relaxing and watching tv. Late at night when tv gets lousy with paid programming I'm out there in my shop.

I don't know how many 8-10 hour nights I spent on this stove but is was many. I must have close to 150 hours in. The latest thing was the convection motor assembly being a little too much on the small side. Priced a new Dayton motor at $80 and decided to adapt the new $30 motor I bought to the bigger oem blower fan (squirrel cage) the stove came with. Problem: the new motor's shaft is an inch too short. Fire up the lathe and make a shaft extension. This one little part needs to be precise on diameters and concentricty, otherwise there will be too much runout. Took three hours to make with two tapped holes and a milled flat but I saved the $80 of not buying another motor. It's fun designing and making the special little thingies I need to make anything fit anything so yeah another challenge crushed.


----------



## filburt (Jan 15, 2010)

When replacing the blowers, be certain they are rated for high temp performance. I noticed that the combustion fan was rated to withstand 400 degrees. Also, the more unrestricted the combustion air is, the cooler the fan runs. For this reason I feel that any dampering of the combustion air will dramatically shorten the life of the blowers. As I previously mentioned, I have an insert so dampering is impossible. I feel that  even a freestanding stove is designed to never be dampered. Realize that replacement motors must be designed for the high temps that occur.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 15, 2010)

filburt said:
			
		

> When replacing the blowers, be certain they are rated for high temp performance. I noticed that the combustion fan was rated to withstand 400 degrees. Also, the more unrestricted the combustion air is, the cooler the fan runs. For this reason I feel that any dampering of the combustion air will dramatically shorten the life of the blowers. As I previously mentioned, I have an insert so dampering is impossible. I feel that  even a freestanding stove is designed to never be dampered. Realize that replacement motors must be designed for the high temps that occur.



Yes. There is a motor insulation class, duty rating, and the ambient temp rise rating. The motor should at least be a TEFC an not an open frame design with exposed windings (more stuff learned here recently). One thing I don't understand about sqirrel cage blower fan assemblies:

How come when you restrict the air coming is is goes faster and blows harder? What the heck is going on? Is it like an undocumented day laborer that works harder when being choked? I don't get it.


----------



## imacman (Jan 15, 2010)

man-machine said:
			
		

> How come when you restrict the air coming is is goes faster and blows harder? ......I don't get it.



Just like when you put your hand over a vacuum intake....no air goes in, therefore, no air resistance (drag), so motor can spin easier=higher speed.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 16, 2010)

This new convection fan motor is a little less capable than the oem one. 

1/30 hp instead of 1/20 and draws slightly less amps, all other specs are ok. I saved $50 but for how long I wonder?


----------



## man-machine (Jan 16, 2010)

filburt said:
			
		

> When replacing the blowers, be certain they are rated for high temp performance. I noticed that the combustion fan was rated to withstand 400 degrees. Also, the more unrestricted the combustion air is, the cooler the fan runs. For this reason I feel that any dampering of the combustion air will dramatically shorten the life of the blowers. As I previously mentioned, I have an insert so dampering is impossible. I feel that  even a freestanding stove is designed to never be dampered. Realize that replacement motors must be designed for the high temps that occur.



Agreed but my freestanding ps is dampered, I wonder why? I see little or no advantage in choking off the supply of combustion air.

Arn't stoves like engines, the better the air flow the more fuel you can put to it and equaling more heat output?

It's preportional isn't it? Am I wrong? Just winging some theory here, no thesis or PhD.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 16, 2010)

If it doesn't overheat and fry or the bearings don't blow they can last a long time.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 16, 2010)

man-machine said:
			
		

> filburt said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You need to consider that at higher air flow rates the heated gases that normally would transfer some of their energy to the heat exchanger are just going to be more quickly exiting the stove and heat transfer is proportional to time as well as temperature difference and the conductivity of the heat exchanger material.

It turns out to be a balancing act, which once set for a particular fuel doesn't need further adjustment.

The goal is to get as much time in contact with the heat exchanger as possible for the exhaust gases and the largest temperature difference between the sides of the heat exchanger as possible while having the highest possible conductive heat exchanger material that can survive the environment.   This also means that the convection fan must be able to move enough air to keep that side of the exchanger to as close to ambient room temperature as possible.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 16, 2010)

Well from stone cold it will heat up my 768 sq ft shop from 40F to 60F in less than two hours on high burn.

I don't know if thats really good or not good at all but it looks like thats as good as I'm gonna get. Again, this is a stove with only two burn rates, high and low. I set high burn with an aggresive firing rate and low burn with a slightly more than moderate firing rate. It's still kind of a PITA to keep the shop at a steady temp and I try not to judge all ps's based on the 20 yo unit I'm using.

Even though this project was or maybe still is a nutcruncher I wasn't going to let it kick my butt. Something that is a little worrysome right now is the fact that when I switch from "run" to "shutdown" mode the auger will sometime keep feeding. So I switch it again back to run and back to shutdown and see if it stops feeding, or turn it off and back on and then to shut down. Pisses me off it's not doing exactly what it's supposed to and I hope nothing more serious goes wrong with the electronics.


----------



## filburt (Jan 17, 2010)

To heat your shop up 20 degrees in less than 2 hrs is excellent. Remember, you're not running a 120,000 BTU forced air furnace that runs intermittently. Your heating unit will produce less than 1/3 the output of the average furnace. It is designed to run constantly rather than giving you a blast of hot air. This is how the higher efficiency is maintained.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 17, 2010)

What did I say the btu rating was before? I'm too lazy to look. I think it was 9k to 32k, something like that. Yeah, I though a 20F rise in less than two hours was at least ok but I wasn't going to brag unless I was sure lol.

What I'd really like to do is copy the steel heat exchanger into an aluminum one. Making all the pieces is easy but I don't have a way to weld aluminum otherwise I'd be doing it right now.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 17, 2010)

To be really fancy this stove would have a remote temp sensor and a flame sensor plus a temp feedback loop with a variable speed combustion fan tied into the firing rate and also tied into the convection fan's variable speed controller. 100% automatic control regulated by a thermostat. I don't know if the new mega-trick stoves are like this or not but mine seems rather crude when it comes to holding a steady room temp.


----------



## man-machine (Jan 22, 2010)

So if you have a Winston WP24 pellet stove and it's performing poorly plan on taking it all the way apart for a complete cleaning and servicing, just like I was told early on in this topic. It's the only way to eliminate all possible causes and return the stove to peak operation.

Any questions or problems PM me or post up. There is a few tricks to how it comes apart and pitfalls that need to be avoided. These arn't bad stoves, being discontinued in the early 90's means it isn't state of the art by any means but with a lot of careful attention and cleaning it will perform well. I'm glad I stuck it out with this stove and all it's problems, despite the time invested along with $150 in parts I'm happy with the end result. Buying a new replacement wasn't an option money-wise and I'm glad I didn't.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 22, 2010)

Yup and buy stock in high temp silly con sealant companies ;-).


----------



## man-machine (Jan 22, 2010)

Trick #1:

Before you slide the hopper assembly out be sure to vacuum the pellets out from the front of the auger.

Otherwise they fall down between the insulating sheet material and the the bulkhead firewall barrier (thing).

Then the next time you fire the stove up those mentioned pellets sit there and roast and stink up the whole area.


----------



## man-machine (Feb 2, 2010)

More tips for the WP24 and WP18

Door lifts straight up off the hinges to remove it. Don't unbolt the hinges.

The four bolts on the drop chute cover allows the hopper to slide out the rear.

Get those electrician's wire marker stickers before unpluging a bunch of stuff.

Grind one link out of the auger drive chain if the chain adjustment is maxed out.

The insulated firewall/bulkhead thing is held in by two bolts from inside the burn chamber.

When re-assembling the heat exchanger with the metal hoses use drier vent hose clamps and tighten the heck out of them.

I recommend re-tapping the 1/4"-20 threaded holes and wire wheeling all of the bolts.

A complete, thorough cleaning means a disassembling of the combustion fan assembly, room fan assembly and the draft conrol butterfly valve. All of this gets hand scrubbed in the sink until it looks like new. The heat exchanger would also be completely removed and blown out with compressed air and shot inside and out with a hose or pressure washer.

Brace yourself for some real time consuming work. This is easily a 12 hour job, certainly no less, probably way more.


----------



## man-machine (Feb 2, 2010)

Ok, I got an e-mail from a person saying they had a Winston and read this topic. And yes, I do have the owner's manual for the WP24 scanned which I can send to people requesting it, no problem.

Also, if you have a Winston and you're having the problem of the door glass trim not being tight and the screws stripping out of the slots in the trim I can fix that permenently, since new pieces will strip out the same way the originals did. Simply match-mark them to the door with a Sharpie pen and send them to me. I can accurately drill and tap them for new 10-32 flathead screws that will not strip out. I wouldn't try to do this on anything but a good, accurate milling machine. Flathead screws are notorious for the threaded hole placement being accurate, they are very unforgiving when it comes to hole locations being correct. If the trim doesn't fit right the glass won't seal properly.


----------



## man-machine (Feb 3, 2010)

When involved in the major service put the stove up on two milk crates or something of simular height.
Having torn my own stove completely apart no less than six times make it easy on yourself. Crouching down that low is rediculous and having it up that high allows you to work from a chair. Some of the most handy tools are:

ShopVac

7/16" Nutdriver

1/4" drive screwdriver handle with various extensions, universal joint, and 7/16" socket

5/16" socket on a ratchet (to tighten duct hose clamps extremely tight)

RTV High Temp Silicone

And another quick note:
My stove won't go from High Burn to Shutdown, it keeps running.
Turn the control knob so it switches back into Low Burn, then switch to Shutdown.


----------

