# Tiny Living to Tiny House



## jebatty (Jan 26, 2015)

With the increasing interest in Tiny House living, it might be useful to try Tiny Living before moving into the Tiny House. My bicycle trip around Lake Superior in 2013 (1396 miles over 25 days) reminds me that for a month my total possessions and everything necessary for quality life in an incredibly beautiful natural world weighed 100 lbs, half of that being the bicycle. 

An effort at tiny living may pay big dividends in restructuring one's life into a very positive direction. The best way to have a secure future is to reduce consumption, and tiny living will provide that security very quickly. Said another way, the biggest barrier to security is consumption.


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## GENECOP (Jan 26, 2015)

Could not agree more, if I only knew then what I know now life would be very different. Not that things are bad, but I totally bought into the Big House, Lots of stuff myth....Currently all my STUFF feels like an anchor around my neck. My wife and I are making a real effort to scale down and live a more simple life with less stuff. We have spent the better part of our lives aquiring things, this next phase will be about purging....guess we had to go through the process of getting stuff to finally realize we don't want it.....


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## Circus (Jan 26, 2015)

Where would these communities of tiny houses be? Here, we can't even get a permit for a moble home. If segregated to a private park with high fees, you might as well have a full size house. Does living within 200 sq. ft really save anything?


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## velvetfoot (Jan 26, 2015)

jebatty said:


> weighed 100 lbs, half of that being the bicycle.


When I was 19 I rode my bike from Brooklyn, NY to Vancouver, BC, and I know my stuff didn't weigh that much!  I roughed it a bit though.


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## jebatty (Jan 27, 2015)

> Does living within 200 sq. ft really save anything?


 Living like you live in 200 sq ft saves a lot without a doubt, and no zoning or other land use regulations can stop a person from tiny living.


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## Highbeam (Jan 27, 2015)

Reduced consumption isn't about tiny houses so much. Your mortgage is only one of the expenses that is ripe for reduction. You can live in a modest house and gain most of the benefit of the "tiny house" movement. The idea is that the difference between income and expenses determines your wealth. It's pretty hard to raise income but most folks have a lot of expenses that can be cut.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 27, 2015)

That and buying used is a good way to save.  Most of my tools are 2-3x the age I am.  I've picked most of them up at estate sales.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 27, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Reduced consumption isn't about tiny houses so much. Your mortgage is only one of the expenses that is ripe for reduction. You can live in a modest house and gain most of the benefit of the "tiny house" movement. The idea is that the difference between income and expenses determines your wealth. It's pretty hard to raise income but most folks have a lot of expenses that can be cut.


I always said, its not how much you make, its how you spend it. I see people all around me living one paycheck from the street, but blow every cent they get on things they dont need. Such as: large Daily purchase of Lottery tickets, Eat take out daily, smoking. I live on about 35-50% of my income. Invest the difference.


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## OhioBurner© (Jan 29, 2015)

I like the tiny houses, and think in a different life it would be fun. I've often thought about building my own mini log cabin on trailer frame or something like that.

I wouldn't say I live wastefully, I just have lots of hobbies and things I enjoy doing. I certainly live much more frugaly than most.

I would actually like to scale down my house. I do not anymore need the size of home, but would prefer more land so I can garden, have orchards and maybe a little homestead, hunt, cut firewood, etc all on my own land. However selling ones home and also trying to find a suitable new home are not easy things in many areas. I've been looking for a year and haven't found anything remotely close to what I want.

But in a tiny home how do you get away from your wife? Is there a tiny man cave in a tiny basement? lol. Better also have only a tiny amount of kids!

I think it would be neat to dig into a hillside and make an underground hobbit-esque home as well. In my house/property searching over the last year I actually came across one locally. They had a full underground home, and also a good sized garage with finished living space upstairs. My realtor said it was nearly impossible to sell such a place, as you could not get any normal loan for one. Apparently some people have lots of money, but I probably couldn't cough up just a 20% down payment on that place, much less the entire thing in cash. I don't understand why the garage and finished upper level couldn't just be considered the home but I'm no real estate whiz. So one must also consider how sellable it will be in the future. I know I for one would really like to move out of this state eventually, so whatever I get in the meantime will need to also be thought of as an investment and be sellable in say 10 years.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 29, 2015)

For me owning a home IS NOT THE AMERICAN DREAM .I own lots of homes and the more i have the more i get tied down and bogged down with expenses and im responsible for everything that goes on in each one. For the local Govt Homeowners are a captive audience and a fixed target ,ripe to be taxed and regulated to death. I used to live the american dream in my 30s and 40s  when i only had a few places,less work and stress and took 4 MONTHS OFF EACH WINTER TO LOUNGE AROUND ON SOUTH PACIFIC ISLANDS. Thats my american dream and im working my tail off to get back to it and hopefully really retire someday.
approaching 60 and its not getting any easier.  The key is live a more simple life,keep priorities in mind. More is not always better.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 29, 2015)

This is a Good tiny house video but for the economic aspects and escaping lifes financial traps as well as the nice design.


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## razerface (Jan 29, 2015)

I couldn't do it. Tiny living is for townies, or people who have no hobbies, or people who are away from home all the time. Where would I put my ultralight?  Where would I shoot? Where would my chickens,dogs,cats, extra live? Where would I work on motorcycles, my truck and car? Where would my wife park? Where would my bulldozer live? Can you plant a garden in one of those? 

I lived in a camper once,,,,,not gonna do it again unless forced too. I do believe houses will get smaller unless the trend of kids living at home continues.





Where would I stack my wood?


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## jebatty (Jan 29, 2015)

With a few exceptions, and very big ones at that, it may be true that a person can live tiny and inexpensively in a moderate house. The exceptions: 1) fixed location, 2) tendency to accumulate stuff to fill the space, 3) tendency to adopt a lifestyle more characteristic of the house than tiny living, 4) if more than one person, really need to be on the same page, 5) having the funds to acquire the land and house without being tied to a mortgage, and 6) probable need for transportation which can be expensive (car or truck, fuel, maintenance, insurance).

The end of 2014 was a good time to run the numbers on our home:
a) 1500 sq ft main level with walkout basement, partially finished; no mortgage
b) situated in a rural area 12 miles from the nearest small town and 40 miles from a small city which includes big box stores
c) real estate taxes and assessments for 2015 projected to be $1504.00
d) septic system and well, therefore no water/sewer expense
e) grid-tied PV which should +/- a bit meet 100% of annual electricity cost
f) heat with wood from the land, little out-of-pocket heating cost (but need equipment to cut wood)
g) homeowners insurance $954
h) house is substantially maintenance free and was re-roofed 2 years ago
i) basic expense total (real estate taxes + insurance) is $205/month

That's the good news. Now the "bad" news:
j) medical insurance and out-of-pocket expenses $10,550
k) land line telephone, internet and mobile phone $2,900
l) groceries $4,960
m) auto gas, maintenance and insurance $8,740
n) misc household, laundry, etc. $3,340
o) clothing, personal $1,650
p) eating out $2,695 (ouch!)
q) total of bad news $2,903/mo

Total of above $37,295 or $3,108/mo (not including income taxes, FICA, medicare). 

Other expenses: church, charity, gifts, recreation, travel $ *%&*#.00 (from "necessary" to excess, double ouch).

Observations:
1. Medical insurance/expense is the largest single expense we face, 37% of the total. As the largest single expense category by far, it is clear that medical expenses are the main driver of our lives, and seems perverse to me to live in a country where the need to meet medical expenses dominates life. 
2. Auto related expenses are the second largest, 23% of the total. Much of this is the result of the choice to live in the country.
3. Groceries are the third largest, 13% of the total
4. Most expenses are not house related and probably still would exist even if living in a true tiny house. The tiny house is not a ticket for a free ride.
5. No children-related expenses, and these could be very large in a family.


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## Highbeam (Jan 30, 2015)

jebatty said:


> With a few exceptions, and very big ones at that, it may be true that a person can live tiny and inexpensively in a moderate house. The exceptions: 1) fixed location, 2) tendency to accumulate stuff to fill the space, 3) tendency to adopt a lifestyle more characteristic of the house than tiny living, 4) if more than one person, really need to be on the same page, 5) having the funds to acquire the land and house without being tied to a mortgage, and 6) probable need for transportation which can be expensive (car or truck, fuel, maintenance, insurance).
> 
> The end of 2014 was a good time to run the numbers on our home:
> a) 1500 sq ft main level with walkout basement, partially finished; no mortgage
> ...



Your medical is quite high. Is your income just too high to allow the government to pay for your obamacare? Or are you just that "sick"?


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## jebatty (Jan 30, 2015)

Medical for my wife and me is complicated.


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## saskwoodburner (Jan 30, 2015)

I don't believe a tiny house or tiny living would be for everyone, but sure would help a person with the right mind set. I'm thinking of building one of some sort for my son in the next few years. He is a minimalist already and he's in Grade 11. Plans to go to trade school and become heavy equipment mechanic, so if I can help him get a good start on his future that's a bonus.

 Rent is just silly around here in my opinion for our economic situation (not the province, the city and surrounding area). A lot of the province is booming, and it seems the rent goes up here like gas stations raise their prices. One does they all do. Further south or west of here, you trip on jobs while looking. Here is a bunch of gov't and service industry.

 So for me, it would make sense (for my son) seeing a lot of people go away to work for weeks at a time. Save him $10,000/year for a few years might help.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 30, 2015)

Its not rent that people waste the lions share of their money on, you have to live somewhere and you will either rent the house of get a mortgage and rent the money,same difference, its day to day purchases that people get bogged down in. And having to drive a new car every few years will keep you poor as well.IMO


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 30, 2015)

I rehab and finance houses and it amazes me every time someone gives one back and tells me they are going back to renting, or walks away 3/4 of the way through the contract.


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## saskwoodburner (Jan 30, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> . And having to drive a new car every few years will keep you poor as well.IMO



Oh, you must know my nephew and his wife.


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## spirilis (Jan 30, 2015)

Tiny house is a great idea for the guest room, or your kids' stay-room when they live back home...
If I were to build anew on bare property, I might be tempted to build it as a network of tiny (strawbale + plaster on rubble trench foundation) houses connected with covered walkways.  Sleeping + kitchen house, wife's art studio house, mancave house, guest house and ample outside space around.


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## Ashful (Jan 30, 2015)

Lol... Razerface.  You and I must have a lot in common.  I lived tiny in college (1953 dormitory), and I'm not prepared to cram myself back into that sort of space again.

What's "tiny" today, anyway?  Anything under 10,000 sq ft?  [emoji12]


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## dougstove (Jan 30, 2015)

Living in a conditioned tiny house does not preclude having other spaces for other activities.
Especially in the USA, how many days a year do most of you actually need a fully insulated conditioned place for shelter, versus unconditioned breezy screen house or boat house or garden house or summer kitchen or garage/loft, useful for most of the year.
I am continually amazed at how 'outdoors' my Swedish friends still live, cooking and eating outside, even in a colder climate.  I wonder why most Canadians lost that habit.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 30, 2015)

spirilis said:


> Tiny house is a great idea for the guest room, or your kids' stay-room when they live back home...
> d.


Good idea, when the kids want to move back home put them off the grid. Be sure to buy them an old fashioned wash tub for their laundry.


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## Highbeam (Jan 30, 2015)

Am I the only one that keeps seeing/thinking RV travel trailer when these people say "tiny house"? Not a new concept. Sure I could live in one, they are pretty well thought out these days.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 31, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Am I the only one that keeps seeing/thinking RV travel trailer when these people say "tiny house"? Not a new concept. Sure I could live in one, they are pretty well thought out these days.


Iv said as much.No need to reinvent the wheel. RV,campers,travel trailers are very well equipped for 4 seasons and daily living. And many of the tiny house crowd puts them on wheels anyway. They are Mobile Tiny houses and millions already live in them, some by choice and others by circumstance. Around here you can find a perfectly livable 10 to 15 Yr old 25 footer in nice shape for $2000. And no property tax bill.


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## jebatty (Jan 31, 2015)

Haven't seen an RV/camper/trailer yet that can handle the cold MN winters. Can you say "[no] insulation?"


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 31, 2015)

jebatty said:


> Haven't seen an RV/camper/trailer yet that can handle the cold MN winters. Can you say "[no] insulation?"


Their are some very well insulated campers,people have been living in these things year round for a long time. A few years ago i was reshearching some that made a point of bragging about their winter time performance. Ill see if i can find the brand. Of course all campers ,RVs are not created equal.


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## Highbeam (Jan 31, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Iv said as much.No need to reinvent the wheel. RV,campers,travel trailers are very well equipped for 4 seasons and daily living. And many of the tiny house crowd puts them on wheels anyway. They are Mobile Tiny houses and millions already live in them, some by choice and others by circumstance. Around here you can find a perfectly livable 10 to 15 Yr old 25 footer in nice shape for $2000. And no property tax bill.



I suppose then that I've owned a tiny house for many years. Actually, I've owned several. Plenty of insulation for the heater to keep up well into the low teens, even the old ones. I've never been to Minnesota though. The a.c. unit can keep it at 70 in 100+ outdoor temps.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 31, 2015)

Well insulated Campers with thick walls are heavy, same as well insulated tiny houses. That said if you want something with a R Value of 60 you will probably have to build it yourself.


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## Highbeam (Jan 31, 2015)

My current tiny house is a four seasons model made in Oregon. Foam insulation all around, heated holding tanks, all plumbing and ducting on the warm side of the insulation. I did not get the double pane window option but should have. Yes, kinda heavy but modern half ton trucks are rated to tow it plus a ton.


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## jebatty (Jan 31, 2015)

My perceived tiny house, if it should come to pass, is (nearly) energy self-sufficient, with a minimum of heat or AC, as well as maintenance free as reasonably possible. Not looking to trailer it regularly, but definitely movable.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 1, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Iv said as much.No need to reinvent the wheel. RV,campers,travel trailers are very well equipped for 4 seasons and daily living. And many of the tiny house crowd puts them on wheels anyway. They are Mobile Tiny houses and millions already live in them, some by choice and others by circumstance. Around here you can find a perfectly livable 10 to 15 Yr old 25 footer in nice shape for $2000. And no property tax bill.


Or just rent an efficiency apartment downtown where you can walk to work or the grocery store. The ultimate in living minimal. And more do it than those that live in campers and tiny homes. But then your completely dependant on everything. 

I think it would be neat to build a little log cabin or something like that on a trailer frame. I know a camper would work but I'd still like to build my own from scratch. On that scale I just might be able too.

Yes, people spend too much time indoors. During warmer weather I spend most of the time outdoors. Whether that's working in the garden or just drinking coffee and reading a book, all can be done outside. Patios, decks, or just nicely landscaped areas are a lot cheaper than if they were part of your finished sqft. I like the outdoor kitchen concepts and hope to do something like that someday.

One thing I've envisioned with a camper-type tiny home is making it more efficient by having different seasonal locations on the property, if ideal locations are available. Like in the winter I'd have a spot on the south facing side of woods, sheltered from wind but as much southern sun exposure as possible. Then during summer, on the northwest corner of the woods were t gets westerly wind but shaded as much as possible. Of course that means 2x septic, electric lines, etc. But a neat concept.


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## dougstove (Feb 1, 2015)

I wonder about a design sized to slide on and off a car lift carrier truck, or a multi-mode container size, to be moved if necessary, without the hassle of onboard wheels, axels, suspension etc.


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## dougstove (Feb 1, 2015)

> One thing I've envisioned with a camper-type tiny home is making it more efficient by having different seasonal locations on the property, if ideal locations are available. Like in the winter I'd have a spot on the south facing side of woods, sheltered from wind but as much southern sun exposure as possible. Then during summer, on the northwest corner of the woods were t gets westerly wind but shaded as much as possible. Of course that means 2x septic, electric lines, etc. But a neat concept.



Or, move the main sleeping/living room unit(s), and leave a central washhouse in a fixed place.


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## saskwoodburner (Feb 1, 2015)

dougstove said:


> I wonder about a design sized to slide on and off a car lift carrier truck, or a multi-mode container size, to be moved if necessary, without the hassle of onboard wheels, axels, suspension etc.



I think one of the reasons that people build them on trailers is so they are not considered "permanent" and can't really be hassled over zoning by-laws or such things. I think in the oilfield they do exactly what your talking about with camp shack etc


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## saskwoodburner (Feb 1, 2015)

dougstove said:


> Or, move the main sleeping/living room unit(s), and leave a central washhouse in a fixed place.



Portable grey water tank on wheels?


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 1, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> I think it would be neat to build a little log cabin or something like that on a trailer frame. I know a camper would work but I'd still like to build my own from scratch. On that scale I just might be able too.
> .


I just tore down an old shack on my acre in the woods and will either build a small log cabin there or perhaps build one on a trailer frame. Im leaning toward just building a permanent structure as it will improve the value of the lot greatly. It will be a weekend summer kind of place but i would make it very well insulated and it would get my smallest 2 CU ft wood stove. There is already electric and a well and would have to use a composting type toilet or pumpable tank. Should be an interesting project.


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## Ashful (Feb 1, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> Yes, people spend too much time indoors.


I love spending time outdoors, and my wife would say I do too much of it, but you make this statement as if there's something bad about people being indoors.  I don't get it.  What is "too much time indoors"?  There's only so much "outdoors", and kind of like die-hard gym folk who can't stand the New Years resolution group every January, most of the time I'm happy having outdoors to myself.


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## dougstove (Feb 1, 2015)

Regarding insulation in temporary occupancy camp-type buildings:
Some of the hunter/woods camps that my acquaintances have were ruined by ill advised insulation, that provided rodent nesting, and poorly planned vapour barriers, that created rot traps.
For temporary occupancy, there are some advantages to letting the wood stove rip and the wind blow through, to keep things dry.


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## Highbeam (Feb 1, 2015)

Joful said:


> I love spending time outdoors, and my wife would say I do too much of it, but you make this statement as if there's something bad about people being indoors.  I don't get it.  What is "too much time indoors"?  There's only so much "outdoors", and kind of like die-hard gym folk who can't stand the New Years resolution group every January, most of the time I'm happy having outdoors to myself.



So true. It rains in the pnw. A lot. It's raining right now and for each of the next ten days in the forecast. It's dark too. So dark. From 8-5pm we have light. Probably 95% of our time is indoors.


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## BIGDADDY (Feb 1, 2015)

I think tiny houses are a fad. Who wants to cram everything and everyone into a small shed like structure and call it home? Not me. I would go insane


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## BrotherBart (Feb 1, 2015)

BIGDADDY said:


> I think tiny houses are a fad. Who wants to cram everything and everyone into a small shed like structure and call it home? Not me. I would go insane



Never been in the military I see. Or in an apartment.

BB - Who has to admit to having two people and a cat in a 2,500 sq. ft. house now.


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## BIGDADDY (Feb 2, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> Never been in the military I see. Or in an apartment.
> 
> 
> BB - Who has to admit to having two people and a cat in a 2,500 sq. ft. house now.



Lol
Been in the Army and an apartment but I prefer my 2400 sq ft house. 

I even looked at some effeicency apartments way back. The only thing they were missing was a straight jacket if I had to live there.


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## BIGDADDY (Feb 2, 2015)

Tiny house with a smart car parked outside


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## Lake Girl (Feb 2, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> Yes, people spend too much time indoors.



Currently -27C/-16F, it did warm up to around -20C earlier.  I spent 3 hours outside with the dog and shuffling wood pellets ... don't think I could have stood more than that in those temperatures 

Have contemplated the shipping container options for a guest house but the to-do list on the main house has to be completed first.  We currently have a 2000 sq ft. home that has survived 2 parents, 6 children, two dogs and a cat... various extras at different times.  Certainly wouldn't have wanted to go any smaller


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## Ashful (Feb 2, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> BB - Who has to admit to having two people and a cat in a 2,500 sq. ft. house now.


You do realize you're living larger than me, per capita.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 2, 2015)

Well I've just recently been downgraded to just me, and my son 50% of the time and I'm in 2400 sqft not including basement. I would like to downsize, especially since its drafty and poorly insulated. I'd shut half the house down in the winter, but the layout doesn't easily allow that.


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## Lake Girl (Feb 2, 2015)

OhioBurner© said:


> Well I've just recently been downgraded to just me, and my son 50% of the time and I'm in 2400 sqft not including basement. I would like to downsize, especially since its drafty and poorly insulated. I'd shut half the house down in the winter, but the layout doesn't easily allow that.



Sorry to hear that


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## jebatty (Feb 2, 2015)

I tend to think that the discussion about tiny house ... tiny living is less about the size of a house than about the size of a person's life, the point being that reducing house size and/or moving towards tiny living allows for increasing the size of other important things in living. Few people would want to spend all of their waking hours in a 250+/- sq ft space. But if that space was expanded to the arts, entertainment, recreation, socializing, communication, getting along with others in larger public places, then life becomes very big, not small.

I also tend to think that focusing life in a big house can narrow or shrink some very important things: a person's thinking; a person's view of the world; a person's perceptions of other races, religions, cultures, life styles; a person's willingness to be open to different points of view, of willingness to compromise in good faith; a person's understanding of the natural world and of the environment; and of a person's understanding of the sacred that permeates all of the created universe but most importantly of the tiny space called Earth.

And I tend to think that focusing life in a big house can expand the concept of the importance of one's own life to the detriment of the lives of other people and other living things.

A tiny house may be an expression of attempting to choose to force one's life into the larger spaces of importance to the survival of civilization and of all life.


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## Ashful (Feb 2, 2015)

jebatty said:


> I tend to think that the discussion about tiny house ... tiny living is less about the size of a house than about the size of a person's life, the point being that reducing house size and/or moving towards tiny living allows for increasing the size of other important things in living. Few people would want to spend all of their waking hours in a 250+/- sq ft space. But if that space was expanded to the arts, entertainment, recreation, socializing, communication, getting along with others in larger public places, then life becomes very big, not small.


Very thoughtful statement.



jebatty said:


> I also tend to think that focusing life in a big house can narrow or shrink some very important things: a person's thinking; a person's view of the world; a person's perceptions of other races, religions, cultures, life styles; a person's willingness to be open to different points of view, of willingness to compromise in good faith; a person's understanding of the natural world and of the environment; and of a person's understanding of the sacred that permeates all of the created universe but most importantly of the tiny space called Earth.


Say what?  I see the extension you're trying to make, here, but it's improperly placed.  Did Steve Jobs have a narrow view of the world, due to living in some fairly large houses?  Living at the limit of your means may be the thought you had in mind, but it has nothing to do with the size of your house.  More people living in 2000 sq.ft. houses are at the limit of their means, with little time for attention to the things you deem important, than those living in mansions.

I think the whole Tiny House movement is pretty cool, albeit not for me.  I also don't see any need to throw stones elsewhere, to justify them.



jebatty said:


> And I tend to think that focusing life in a big house can expand the concept of the importance of one's own life to the detriment of the lives of other people and other living things.


Bah... humbug!


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## jebatty (Feb 2, 2015)

If everyone agreed with one point of view, life would be pretty small and uninteresting, indeed. Plenty of room for individual exceptions, and generalizations of all types usually are too broad. Just trying to better understand the tiny house ... tiny living romance.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 2, 2015)

living in a house bigger than you can comfortably afford,shortchanges other areas of your life. Unless your the type that never goes anywhere. I like those month long vacations too much to do that.


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## Jags (Feb 2, 2015)

Where would my pool table go?


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## Grisu (Feb 2, 2015)

Jags said:


> Where would my pool table go?



On the bookshelf?


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## dougstove (Feb 2, 2015)

I worry about the de-capitalization of our lives and infrastructure, in favour of just-in-time, just good enough processes and buildings.
For example, for the vast areas of flat roof strip malls on the outskirts of every N.A. town, the construction is put up just well enough to survive just long enough for the rental income to keep ahead of the mortgage payments.
I do not think there is any real goal to 'pay them off', just keep the income ahead of the payments, until the building is demolished.  The USA is probably ahead of my region, but even here in the boonies I am seeing acres of 1st and 2nd generation strip malls (15-30 years old) bulldozed, and replaced with fresh buildings, of no better quality.

The raw material, energy and environmental costs to 'do it right' and build a long-lived building are little more than a quick slap up job.
It is like the entire continent is becoming a temporary mining camp.

I could make the same argument for the Honda Fit (2007) I just traded that had a sturdy, solid cargo compartment, compared to the new 2015 model I rejected, where the cargo area is lined with felted cardboard, but the dashboard was lined with 'infotainment' options (barf).  The car is the ultimate short haul grocery getter, but the new cargo compartment would be beat to pieces in two months.  Interestingly, when I bought the Fit in 2007, Ford Focus had already gone to felted cardboard.

Or the luxury hotel I was placed into in China, resplendent with marble and brass, but with undrinkable water.
Even the components for my (ex) swimming pool decreased in lifetime over the past 15 years.

We have extracted what used to be long term capital investments from our system, and used them for current nominal consumption and economic growth.


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## jebatty (Feb 10, 2015)

I had a weird feeling after watching a documentary on life in Guatemala in a small village where nearly everyone in the village lived in poverty. The income of these people per person was $1/day and that had to cover everything. Yet they banded together as a community to give/loan money to others as needed to pay the expense of medicine (not in the $1/day budget), for example. And they lived. Opportunity was bleak. The way out was practically nonexistent. Very tiny living.


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## dougstove (Feb 10, 2015)

The per capita GDP of the world is ~$10,000 per person per year.
If you get more than that, why?  If you get less, why?
   I am not saying everyone should get the same amount, but on a global basis, $10,000 per head is the point of departure.
That means, for every person rising to $90,000 per person, 9 people have to fall to $1000.
cheerily yours from a very snowy New Brunswick.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 10, 2015)

jebatty said:


> I had a weird feeling after watching a documentary on life in Guatemala in a small village where nearly everyone in the village lived in poverty. The income of these people per person was $1/day and that had to cover everything. Yet they banded together as a community to give/loan money to others as needed to pay the expense of medicine (not in the $1/day budget), for example. And they lived. Opportunity was bleak. The way out was practically nonexistent. Very tiny living.


Probably why a good many are hopping the train thru mexico to get here. THe govt in most of these central american countries including mexico is rife with corruption. They will never get anywhere, until the people rise up and have a revolution against tyranny like we did. Or they will all come here,whichever comes first.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 10, 2015)

dougstove said:


> The per capita GDP of the world is ~$10,000 per person per year.
> If you get more than that, why?  If you get less, why?
> I am not saying everyone should get the same amount, but on a global basis, $10,000 per head is the point of departure.
> That means, for every person rising to $90,000 per person, 9 people have to fall to $1000.
> cheerily yours from a very snowy New Brunswick.


I dont think its quite as simple as that. It depends on a persons creativity. Example: you can carry water on your head for 2 miles every day for your whole life like they do in africa or you can get yourself a pipe and spend all that extra time improving other areas of yours and your familys life.


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## jebatty (Feb 10, 2015)

> I dont think its quite as simple as that. It depends on a persons creativity. Example: you can carry water on your head for 2 miles every day for your whole life like they do in africa or you can get yourself a pipe and spend all that extra time improving other areas of yours and your familys life.


 I agree buy I also think it's not as simple as getting oneself a pipe. You are espousing the myth that everyone, if he or she only worked hard enough, could rise out of poverty and have a healthy, productive, and happy life. Not true for the population as a whole, may be partially true for a small % of members of the population.

Even in the US we "need" minimum wage workers, as we regularly hear from employers. And minimum wage is not a livable wage, so the difference must be made up from public and private support. Why do we hear this? Because owners, managers, shareholders profit off the back of the minimum wage worker. What isn't paid to one person gets paid the higher ups. And the higher ups control the economic system. Money breeds money, and money takes money from others. Everyone, no matter how hard he or she works, cannot be a doctor, CEO of a large company, a Wall Street financier, etc. Everyone with a family of four cannot even make $100,000+/year. And in addition to the fallacy of the absence of hard work as the reason for this, the world does not have the resources to support 6-9 billion people each consuming at a rate equal to or greater than the consumers of the US and other "advanced" nations. 

This discussion has many branches and could go on forever. My point in my post was that "we" argue we cannot not live tiny when the fact is that most of the world lives very tiny. And the tiny we say we cannot live is unbelievably extravagant to a very large portion of the world's population. Weird.


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## Jags (Feb 10, 2015)

One mans cave is another man's palace...


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## Ashful (Feb 10, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I dont think its quite as simple as that. It depends on a persons creativity. Example: you can carry water on your head for 2 miles every day for your whole life like they do in africa or you can get yourself a pipe and spend all that extra time improving other areas of yours and your familys life.


While I am quick to criticize any American who whines about their situation in this land of endless opportunity, there are countless parts of the world where you can't just "get a pipe," metaphorically or physically.  Or if you did manage, it might not be long until someone took it hostage.

Be thankful we live in a part of the world where the only true limit to relative success is your own ability.


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## dougstove (Feb 10, 2015)

Joful said:


> Be thankful we live in a part of the world where the only true limit to relative success is your own ability.



Even that is doubtful.  Social mobility in North America is low.
There could be lots of scary reasons for that, and maybe it is fine that way, but objectively, people born poor stay poor.  People born rich stay rich.
Teetering into ash can territory.  I am not aiming to be offensive, but the Disney 1 in a million myth is a myth (or, at least, statistically rare).

I completely agree that most human misery is attributable to bad government, and that all successful countries have a foundation of decent (or at least competent) government.


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## Ashful (Feb 10, 2015)

What you say is mostly correct, social mobility is low, but it is possible.  We can all think of examples of very wealthy or powerful individuals born into very modest situations in this country.  More difficult for those without a head-start, but you can always "get a pipe."


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## jebatty (Feb 10, 2015)

> More difficult for those without a head-start, but you can always "get a pipe."


 But not everyone can "get a pipe," because if they did, there would be no one to paint the pipe, carry the pipe, clean the pipe, guard the pipe, maintain the pipe, repair the pipe, etc. The guy who owns the pipe and sells the water will take the loot, those under will take less, and less, and less, to the guy at the very bottom who only will get a drip to wet his tongue.


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## Ashful (Feb 10, 2015)

jebatty said:


> But not everyone can "get a pipe," because if they did...


Correct.  I was pretty careful with my words, though.  "Anyone" can... not "everyone" can.


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## jebatty (Feb 10, 2015)

Very good ... I would guess you are the guy who owns the pipe. Congratulations.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 10, 2015)

I make frequent trips to the philippines ,my wife is from there so we go to visit relatives. There  are  entrepreneurs everywhere  and there are twice as many whining that they cant find someone to give them a job. Same situation in my home town,only a lot less entrepreneurs and more people whining no one will give them a good job.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 10, 2015)

Itsd also not how much you make but how you spend it. I see so many people both here and in the philippines buying things they absolutely do not need and should not buy. Example Cigarettes, lottery tickets, booze ,drugs ect ect. As amazed as i am to see people spending so much on this stuff here,it even more amazing to see it in a country where the average wage is $3-$5  day


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## jebatty (Feb 10, 2015)

I also could not understand why people on very low incomes, into poverty, spend money on these things. But then we mentored a person recovering from various abuse issues, also in poverty, and began to understand that when a person does not believe they can get ahead, no matter what they do; that when a person is raised in a culture with those beliefs; then it makes no sense to the person to try to save because the valid bills are more than they make such that in many cases an existence barely can be eked out. So, might as well spend what you get as fast as you can on something you "enjoy" because no enjoyment is the other option.

This situation of desperation is compounded by powerful marketing by all the big companies with all the glitzy this or that and by all the food producers to buy this IMO bad food or that bad food, constant bombardment in TV, billboards, social marketing; and this marketing has created an intensely consumer society in the US. The result is a psyche that greatly desires and wants those things, a psyche that has been shaped since birth by big business to support their profits for execs and shareholders, and it becomes obvious why people with little buy things that make no sense to persons who understand that they have valid options.

And it is further compounded by govt and regulation that lets all this happen in the name of capitalism, free choice, profit, and ultimately greed. And that happens because big companies/big money have the lobbyists and power to control the system for their benefit. Big money supports big money.

It may sound like I'm saying the poor person is playing the victim here. Not playing at all. The poor person is at the mercy of a system, including a welfare system, that is designed not to let the poor person get ahead.

With all of that said, the person we intensely mentored, even invited to live in our home with a small child (invitation accepted), started to see hope; saw a lifestyle that didn't thrive on the latest this or that; saw that the person was valued by somebody; saw that the person actually was loved by caring people; and the result was setting the person free to finally succeed. This person so far has won the battles, but the war is not over. We remain highly involved in the person's life with constant support and encouragement. We are very hopeful the cycle of poverty has been broken for one person, one family.

Yes, anyone can succeed. And yes, everyone cannot succeed.


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## Ashful (Feb 10, 2015)

jebatty said:


> Very good ... I would guess you are the guy who owns the pipe. Congratulations.


You assume too much!  My story would surprise you, but that's not the subject for this thread.

BTW... good post (#70).


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 10, 2015)

From what iv seen both in the US and also in one of the poorest countries in the world, people with drive and ambition make it a lot farther no matter what the odds.
or no matter what country or political system they are born into. There are many success stories in my families and also quite a few who will never get anywhere,all living with the exact same families as the successful ones both here in america and in the Philippines. Yes people are a victim of circumstance sometimes but most often they create those circumstances with the choices they make every day. If you believe in luck, good choices good luck ,bad choices bad luck.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 10, 2015)

Living small is standard fare in the philippines. Id say Most houses are about  150 Sq ft  to 300Sf


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## jebatty (Feb 11, 2015)

> Yes people are a victim of circumstance sometimes but most often they create those circumstances with the choices they make every day.


 I agree with this on an objective basis. Everything a person does is the result of a choice, which of course puts total responsibility for a person's success/failure on the person. And I would agree even more if each person had the same support, opportunity, intelligence, skill-set, education, encouragement. But we know that is not true. Evidence is pretty clear that the first 4-5 years of a person's life have a huge impact on the outcome of that person, and evidence also is pretty clear that if a child by the end of the 4th grade is not a good reader and not doing well in school, that child's success outcome is likely to be seriously impaired. So while choice is objective, the ability to make that choice clearly is not.

Once again, there are plenty of stories of remarkable success by persons coming out of the worst situations, as well as failure by persons coming out of the best of circumstances. In both cases, however, there are several orders of magnitude of more stories of crime, abuse, failure, poverty, etc. by persons coming out of the negative situations and of stories of success by persons coming out of the positive situations. Those stories prove nothing for those populations as a whole. 

We all can be sure that XYZ breakfast cereal company would not spend $millions on advertising to toddlers (and adults) touting their sugary cereals if that advertising did not work to change choices. Or that ABC tobacco company (in the past) or beer company would not spend $millions on advertising to young people and young and old adults touting the benefits of their products if that advertising did not work to change choices. Think of what the result would be if XYZ company spent all that money on advertising very healthy foods, or if ABC company spent all that money on to support young families and early childhood education, to change the way people think about healthy foods, good child care, and quality education. 

We can argue whether or not choices create the circumstances or circumstances create the choices. Some of both are true, but on a population wide basis, I would submit that circumstances have the greatest impact in affecting choices.


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## woodgeek (Feb 11, 2015)

As a liberal, I think there is a genuine dearth of opportunity for too many, and much of the human condition could be improved by appropriate (public) education. But that said, the majority of american adults are _functionally innumerate_.  They can't really tell you what it means if a price is 25% off on sale, let alone compute compound interest, either negative (credit cards) or positive (mutual funds).

It is hard for me to understand the orientation of the innumerate to the world, but I suppose people just 'follow their gut' in decision making (rather than mentally applying the rule of 72).

And I don't think uninformed gut decisions in finance work.


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## Jags (Feb 11, 2015)

Suggestion for new thread title: (since this one is in the weeds).

"Life is hard, are you up to the challenge?"

Look to the left a bit...I can see ash can hill from here.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 11, 2015)

Its all about instant gratification,in this country at least. Those who have to have the latest,greatest thing today regardless of their ability to afford it will finance it any way they can even if it means hardship in the future. The majority of people i finance houses for want the lowest possible monthly payment. they dont care if the interest is 39% of if the term is 40 years. They just cant seem to think past the present. I had only 1 person in 25 years in this business pay additional principal which shortens the term dramatically.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 11, 2015)

Any time now jags going, going ..........................gone


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## Jags (Feb 11, 2015)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Any time now jags going, going ..........................gone



Mercifully.....done.

For the record - I am not against this type of discussion - it just really doesn't fit a wood burning forum (even in the green room).


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