# 14-2 vs 12-2 wiring?



## lumbajac

Preparing to wire my new home and have bought 12-2 wire and 20A breakers for all baths, my basement workshop, garage, and the kitchen/dining area.  Purchased 14-2 wire and 15A breakers for all other outlet circuits and lighting circuits such as living room, hallways, and bedrooms.  Now I've been told by a couple of other people that they would run 12-2 with 20A instead of the 14-2 with 15A breakers everywhere.

I'm considering exchanging all of my 14-2 and 15A's (about 2000' worth) for 12-2 and 20's.  Should I go with 12-2 and 20A's in the bedrooms as well since they require arcfault breakers?  Should I go with the 12-2 just to "overwire" a bit in the bedrooms for potential future loads such as computers (is 14-2 sufficient or 12-2 necessary for computers)?  Would I be wasting money and some time since 14-2 is cheaper and easier to work with?

Any thoughts/suggestions?


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## TMonter

Absolutely go with 12-2 Wire and 20 Amp circuits. Not only are they less fire prone due to overloading, but you'll thank yourself later.

Other things to keep in mind:

Keep lighting off of wall plug circuits

Do not "Back wire" plugs. It takes longer to use the screw posts but it's far less prone to arcing and fires.

Pull at least one extra circuit to the far end of the house for future use. (trust me on this).

I always say spend a little more up front on the wiring so you only have to do it once.


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## Highbeam

Why do you think you need a 20 amp circuit? WOuld a 15 amp circuit do the job? I bet it will. Even your computer center will not need more than 15 amps. Cripes, that's 1550 watts. So why upsize? Bathrooms, garages, and utility rooms sure, there you will have hair dryers power tools and irons. I don't see the need to overwire everything unless you can show the need.


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## burntime

I agree with highbeam, plus 12 is a pain to get to go in the box cleanly.


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## lumbajac

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Why do you think you need a 20 amp circuit? WOuld a 15 amp circuit do the job? I bet it will. Even your computer center will not need more than 15 amps. Cripes, that's 1550 watts. So why upsize? Bathrooms, garages, and utility rooms sure, there you will have hair dryers power tools and irons. I don't see the need to overwire everything unless you can show the need.



I guess I don't know if I will need 20 amp circuits or not... I know very little about wiring.  I will be running lights and outlets separately.  

What I do know is that my brother-in-law is having his breakers for his new home bedrooms tripping quite easily.  He ran 14-2 wire with 15A breakers... lights and outlets separate from each other.  He is blaming the issue on the required arcfault breaker.  I do know that he has ran 3 bedrooms tied into one 15A arcfault breaker so this may be the issue... probably should have each bedroom running into their own individual arcfault breakers to avoid this problem?  Or is the issue undersized wire and breakers... or a combination of the wiring, breakers, and arcfault?  He's not plugging anything too heafty into the outlets other than alarm clocks, radios, etc.  

Again, I don't know much about wiring so I'm just thinking out loud here and trying to figure out what I should do.

More thoughts and opinions would be welcomed and appreciated!  Thanks.


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## Redox

I wouldn't bother with 12ga/20A unless you have a heavy demand, like in the kitchen.  14-2 is much easier to work with and 20 amp circuits really ought to have 20 amp devices on them ie: NEMA 5-20 receptacles.  See:  http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/dept_id_966.htm  These are a usually a lot more expensive than 15 amp parts, due to the volume sold.

Arcfaults are a relative newcomer to home construction and I have heard about a lot of people having a lot of problems.  The bigger the circuit (more receptacles) the greater the chance of a problem, so more smaller circuits should be better.  I would suggest that your BIL pull each device on the circuit and check for loose wiring and yes, those back wired outlets (if you have them) will only cause a problem in the future.  Put it all back together and see if you can narrow down which device causes the problem, if it recurs.  It is possible to have a bad breaker that is too sensitive, but they all conform to the same standard, soooo.....

We all got along fine with regular breakers, even Federal Pacific only burned down a FEW houses!

Chris


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## TMonter

Why skimp on the wiring people? Honestly how much additional cost will it add to the house? $500 maybe $1000? If he's planning on living in the house for a long time I definitely would go with 20 amp circuits not only is it less likely to trip with larger devices plugged in. Something I've also noticed that on certain combinations of lighting and motors 15 amp circuits will trip where a 20 won't because the inrush of current through a 15 amp breaker.


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## Hogwildz

I just wired my addition. I used 14/2 & 14/3 for the separate lights & ceiling fan fixtures. 12/2 & 12/3 for the outlet circuits. Also ran separate circuits for the office & bedroom.
Have run my shopsmith in the bedroom while working on everything etc, all my power tools, no problems. I see no need to run 12 gauge for lighting circuits. I do suggest keeping lighting & receptacles on separate circuits.
I ran a new sub panel in the garage tapped off the main breaker panel. New code calls for arc fault breakers in the sub panel. I used em, they are expensive, but never had a problem with them. Did accidentally rub a hot terminal on a receptacle that is dangling from box until I get the walls sealed. Arc fault worked flawlessly.


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## jebatty

One thing to keep in mind with lighting circuits is use of CFL's and future LED's. I think the code limits number of boxes on a circuit, but this might be silly for CFL lighting (not accounting for the hog, pardon the french, who goes with incandescent lighting). A 15 amp circuit, drawing 10 amps, would power at least 75- 15w CFL's, or 46- 25w CFL's (100 watt equivalent incandescent). Numbers are rounded.


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## TMonter

I would agree that on lighting only circuits 14-2 would be appropriate as it's never going to see heavy amp loads however I would only tie 1 maybe 2 rooms on the same lighting circuit so that if it trips all the lights in one area of the house aren't all out at once like my house.

I swear a pack of chimps wired my house and the builders in charge didn't bother to do anything properly. I have the garage door opener on outlet circuits, lighting mixed with outlets and all sorts of foolish things.


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## u8at711

sawdustburners said:
			
		

> HD has booklets titled 'CODECHECK" which are very helpfull.  u can browse them thru in store. or get an electrcian to draw u a plan. i would run 12-2 to all outlets & 14-2 to lights & hardwired smoke detectors which the codeman suggested should be on circuit which CANNOT be ignored so i put them on the light cicuit & he was happy. its a pain when the backup batteries need replacing but they cant be turned off with a breaker & forgotten.
> With the demands of modern electrical code, the codechecks are great



I second this.
also. in my area, we need arc fault breakers for bed rooms. and 12 awg wire in bathrooms with gfi fault protection


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## seige101

As an electrician who has wired more than his share of houses i would be happy to help.

20 amp circuits for bedrooms is a little on the over kill side, unless you plan on running window a/c units in the bedrooms. I like to put 1-2 bedrooms per circuit depending on size. For example 2 small or medium sized bedrooms on a circuit, the master bed and bath lighting on it's own circuit. I Prefer to run dedicated 20 amp circuits to the bathroom outlets that are near the bedrooms. (Code is 1 20 amp bathroom circuit could cover the entire house)

I prefer to run a dedicated NON GFI circuit for the fridge, also another dedicated 20 amp circuit if you have an over the range micro wave.

Like others have said don't use the backwire (stab in) connections on outlets and switches. Nor daisy chain switches ( strip a little insulation, wrap around the screw and repeat until all the switches in a box are wired) take the time and make a good slice.

Good practice is a spare circuit up into the attic, or even better a spare conduit for future.

As others have said arc-fault breakers are required every where now, the exception is fixed appliances (garage door openers, furnaces, dryers, ranges, sump pumps etc and anything thats GFCI protected).

As far as arc fault breakers tripping, older vacuum cleaners, or any appliance that the brushes are worn out could cause it to trip. This was true for the older arc fault breakers, the newer ones seem to be a little less sensitive. You must make sure you keep your neutrals separate in multi gang boxes, as this could cause un-wanted tripping.

there is no max amount of boxes or devices that may be placed on a circuit, in residential anyways.

I like to also install a 200 amp service in the house regardless of size, because the price difference in materials is about $300 ish. This is not always practical in spec houses or duplex houses, those the builder usually requests the bare minimum allowed by code.

Re: u8at711. 2008 NEC (not adopted every where yet) Requires arc faults for almost all circuits now, and a 20 amp GFI in bathrooms has gone back to at least the 96 code cycle.

Any other questions ask here or feel free to PM me.


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## saichele

I'd generally agree on 14-2 for lighting and 12-2 for wall plugs, but overall run more circuits.  My parents did a pretty serious remodel a few years back, and every room has separate plug and lighting circuits.  Makes any kind of work really easy, plus it's all labeled, which takes a lot of the excitement out of electrical work 

Steve


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## lumbajac

seige101 said:
			
		

> As an electrician who has wired more than his share of houses i would be happy to help.
> 
> 20 amp circuits for bedrooms is a little on the over kill side, unless you plan on running window a/c units in the bedrooms. I like to put 1-2 bedrooms per circuit depending on size. For example 2 small or medium sized bedrooms on a circuit, the master bed and bath lighting on it's own circuit. I Prefer to run dedicated 20 amp circuits to the bathroom outlets that are near the bedrooms. (Code is 1 20 amp bathroom circuit could cover the entire house)
> 
> I prefer to run a dedicated NON GFI circuit for the fridge, also another dedicated 20 amp circuit if you have an over the range micro wave.
> 
> Like others have said don't use the backwire (stab in) connections on outlets and switches. Nor daisy chain switches ( strip a little insulation, wrap around the screw and repeat until all the switches in a box are wired) take the time and make a good slice.
> 
> Good practice is a spare circuit up into the attic, or even better a spare conduit for future.
> 
> As others have said arc-fault breakers are required every where now, the exception is fixed appliances (garage door openers, furnaces, dryers, ranges, sump pumps etc and anything thats GFCI protected).
> 
> As far as arc fault breakers tripping, older vacuum cleaners, or any appliance that the brushes are worn out could cause it to trip. This was true for the older arc fault breakers, the newer ones seem to be a little less sensitive. You must make sure you keep your neutrals separate in multi gang boxes, as this could cause un-wanted tripping.
> 
> there is no max amount of boxes or devices that may be placed on a circuit, in residential anyways.
> 
> I like to also install a 200 amp service in the house regardless of size, because the price difference in materials is about $300 ish. This is not always practical in spec houses or duplex houses, those the builder usually requests the bare minimum allowed by code.
> 
> Re: u8at711. 2008 NEC (not adopted every where yet) Requires arc faults for almost all circuits now, and a 20 amp GFI in bathrooms has gone back to at least the 96 code cycle.
> 
> Any other questions ask here or feel free to PM me.



Not planning on running bedroom window A/C units as I am having an airconditioning coil installed in my furnace; not going to have an air conditioning unit quite yet, but the coil is in place.  Will likely run separte light and outlet circuits - 14-2 for both in bedrooms, hallways, and living room.  Will run 12-2 in kitchen, dining, basement workshop, and garage.

Thanks


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## velvetfoot

I didn't realize those arc fault breakers were required everywhere now.  I think I just have them in the bed rooms in our 5 year place.
Is it worthwhile retrofitting those breakers?  Do they provide much more protection?  I have to read more about them.

If you were going to power your house occasionally with a portable or standby generator, now would be the time to make provisions for that.
It's not that fancy, but I found a simple generator interlock kit by SquareD, but even that required the upper right two breaker positions so I had to move the stove breakers.  Luckily I found enough slack in the wire.


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## seige101

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I didn't realize those arc fault breakers were required everywhere now.  I think I just have them in the bed rooms in our 5 year place.
> Is it worthwhile retrofitting those breakers?  Do they provide much more protection?  I have to read more about them.
> 
> If you were going to power your house occasionally with a portable or standby generator, now would be the time to make provisions for that.
> It's not that fancy, but I found a simple generator interlock kit by SquareD, but even that required the upper right two breaker positions so I had to move the stove breakers.  Luckily I found enough slack in the wire.



Retrofit applications can be hard to do. Each circuit must have a neutral wire (white) all the way back to the panel (without being tied into other circuits)  when using the arc-fault breakers. If the electrician who wired your house was good this shouldn't be a problem, but a lot of guys see white wires and splice them all together, it isn't really a code or safety issue. This is common in multi gang boxes where there is 3-way switches wired to different circuits.

Personally i wouldn't retro fit them in my house.

Yes they provide much more protection.

Definitely a good suggestion on adding provisions for the generator now!


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## GVA

lumbajac said:
			
		

> seige101 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As an electrician who has wired more than his share of houses i would be happy to help.
> 
> 20 amp circuits for bedrooms is a little on the over kill side, unless you plan on running window a/c units in the bedrooms. I like to put 1-2 bedrooms per circuit depending on size. For example 2 small or medium sized bedrooms on a circuit, the master bed and bath lighting on it's own circuit. I Prefer to run dedicated 20 amp circuits to the bathroom outlets that are near the bedrooms. (Code is 1 20 amp bathroom circuit could cover the entire house)
> 
> I prefer to run a dedicated NON GFI circuit for the fridge, also another dedicated 20 amp circuit if you have an over the range micro wave.
> 
> Like others have said don't use the backwire (stab in) connections on outlets and switches. Nor daisy chain switches ( strip a little insulation, wrap around the screw and repeat until all the switches in a box are wired) take the time and make a good slice.
> 
> Good practice is a spare circuit up into the attic, or even better a spare conduit for future.
> 
> As others have said arc-fault breakers are required every where now, the exception is fixed appliances (garage door openers, furnaces, dryers, ranges, sump pumps etc and anything thats GFCI protected).
> 
> As far as arc fault breakers tripping, older vacuum cleaners, or any appliance that the brushes are worn out could cause it to trip. This was true for the older arc fault breakers, the newer ones seem to be a little less sensitive. You must make sure you keep your neutrals separate in multi gang boxes, as this could cause un-wanted tripping.
> 
> there is no max amount of boxes or devices that may be placed on a circuit, in residential anyways.
> 
> I like to also install a 200 amp service in the house regardless of size, because the price difference in materials is about $300 ish. This is not always practical in spec houses or duplex houses, those the builder usually requests the bare minimum allowed by code.
> 
> Re: u8at711. 2008 NEC (not adopted every where yet) Requires arc faults for almost all circuits now, and a 20 amp GFI in bathrooms has gone back to at least the 96 code cycle.
> 
> Any other questions ask here or feel free to PM me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not planning on running bedroom window A/C units as I am having an airconditioning coil installed in my furnace; not going to have an air conditioning unit quite yet, but the coil is in place.  Will likely run separte light and outlet circuits - 14-2 for both in bedrooms, hallways, and living room.  Will run 12-2 in kitchen, dining, basement workshop, and garage.
> 
> Thanks
Click to expand...

How about kids???
Mine both seemed to have everything in the world plugged in, stereos, playstations, computers........loads that bedrooms were not designed to handle...
Daughter loved to plug hair curler in and then blow dry her hair, while everything else was running, in the bedroom :roll: 
I agree with most 14 for lighting and 12 for outlets.
and I agree with the thought of running 12 for everything..
In a nutshell though you can't just pack a 22 space 100 amp panel full of 20 amp breakers.
you need to calculate the load and then size the panel........  Like seige said 200amp seems to be the norm now anyway but it too can't be packed full of 20amp breakers.........You *can* run 12 throughout the house and hook up 15 amp circuits (and breakers) to it but you can't hook up a 20 amp breaker to a 14-2 (legally that is).
running 12-2 throughout can reduce costs in the future should you need to expand a circuit....
just my thoughts...... but with todays cost of copper if I had to do it allover again........  I'm not sure what I would do.
This probably won't help you will it???????? :-/


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## GVA

seige101 said:
			
		

> velvetfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't realize those arc fault breakers were required everywhere now.  I think I just have them in the bed rooms in our 5 year place.
> Is it worthwhile retrofitting those breakers?  Do they provide much more protection?  I have to read more about them.
> 
> If you were going to power your house occasionally with a portable or standby generator, now would be the time to make provisions for that.
> It's not that fancy, but I found a simple generator interlock kit by SquareD, but even that required the upper right two breaker positions so I had to move the stove breakers.  Luckily I found enough slack in the wire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retrofit applications can be hard to do. Each circuit must have a neutral wire (white) all the way back to the panel (without being tied into other circuits)  when using the arc-fault breakers. If the electrician who wired your house was good this shouldn't be a problem, but a lot of guys see white wires and splice them all together, it isn't really a code or safety issue. This is common in multi gang boxes where there is 3-way switches wired to different circuits.
> 
> Personally i wouldn't retro fit them in my house.
> 
> Yes they provide much more protection.
> 
> Definitely a good suggestion on adding provisions for the generator now!
Click to expand...

gotta love the shared neutral on the ground fault breakers too ;-P


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## velvetfoot

Thanks for the info about the arc breakers seige.


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## seige101

GVA said:
			
		

> gotta love the shared neutral on the ground fault breakers too ;-P



Don't get me started... lets just say nicely that the previous company i worked for and my co-irkers weren't the brightest bulbs. I've pulled my hair out plenty of times tracing out circuits that randomly trip.

The current company, i work with the owner and 2 other guys, mainly commercial and industrial. I am always told do it right, no matter how long it takes, go out and get anything you need in regards to tools and materials to get the job done. The pay and benefits are good too!


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## Ken45

Running 20 amp circuits when not needed is not really an ideal practice, IMO (I am not an electrician or inspector, however).

The purpose of a circuit breaker is to protect an overload.  Remember, you are going to be plugging in light wire (rated for 5 or 10 amps) into the outlets.  If you have a problem in a light or appliance, you want the circuit breaker to trip quickly.  In some situations, a 20 amp breaker might not trip allowing the power to flow until a fire started whereas a 15 amp might have tripped earlier.  

Sure, it's a somewhat uncommon scenario, but I'm just pointing out that "bigger isn't always better" when you don't need it. Breakers should be sized for the expected load.

Of course, 12 ga wire with 15 amp breakers is fine, that won't cause the problem and if you ever really need it as a 20 amp circuit, you can easily replace the breaker.

As for Jim's rant against incandescent lighting, from all that I'm reading, CFL's are not all they are cracked up to be.  They could turn out to be an environmental nightmare.  If one breaks, you have a high risk situation with the mercury released.  If it breaks onto carpet or furniture, the carpet or couch should be removed from the house and properly disposed of.  Do not inhale the air without proper protection, etc. while you are cleaning up. And of course they don't last as long as advertised, especially in non ideal usage (frequent on/off, etc.)   And who disposes of the burned out bulbs in an environmentally safe manner?  Yep, we're sure going to save energy when I have to drive the car 30 miles to properly dispose of a burned out CFL.  Right now I have a dozen burned out 4' flourescents sitting around the basement that I can't get rid of.  This is good for the environment?

Just my $.02

Ken


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## velvetfoot

They have new flourescent bulbs you can throw out (Sylvania Ecologic?).


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## Corey

I have the standard 14-2 house / 12-2 kitchen/garage.  I can't ever remember tripping a breaker in the house...might have snapped one or two in the garage with space heater running, all ceiling lights on, 500W halogen work light, plus kicking on a chop saw which got stuck in the metal, 1/2 way through the cut.

IMHO, things are starting to use less electricity...not more.  You may plug in a stereo, play station, TV, computer, cell phone, etc - and all that still won't use 1,000 watts.  I guess if you plan to stay at your home for ever, you could spend the extra cash and be in a "better to have and not need rather than need and not have" mode.  But if you're planning to move anytime in the next decade it would just be a waste.  Even if you do trip a breaker - it's not the end of the world...just re-set it and move one or two items from that plug to another.  I'd be willing to make a few trips to the basement breaker panel to save a couple thousand bucks.

One thing I have invested in (when remodeling kitchens/baths) is MORE plugs...as it seems like more things need to be plugged in today...my cell phone, wife's cell, computer, counter top appliances, various battery chargers, etc.  So every place in my kitchen that would normally have been a single gang outlet, I put in a double.  Though the cost of that is pretty minor - a buck for the box, few bucks for the receptacle and a few extra minutes to wire it up.


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## ScottF

> Do not “Back wire” plugs. It takes longer to use the screw posts but it’s far less prone to arcing and fires.



 I have a question about recessed lights if you dont mind.  You said dont use the push in posts on the back of outlets.  How about the little plastic connectors that came on my Halo recessed fixtures .They replace the wire nut connectors and are push in types  They were aready installed on the fixtures when I bought them.  You simply stripped the wires and pushed them into the the little plastic connectors.  Should I have cut these off and used a wire nut?  Will I have future problems and should I take down the sheetrock and re-do before I plaster and it is too late?  The attic area is not accessable.  Thanks


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## Redox

ScottF said:
			
		

> Do not “Back wire” plugs. It takes longer to use the screw posts but it’s far less prone to arcing and fires.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a question about recessed lights if you dont mind.  You said dont use the push in posts on the back of outlets.  How about the little plastic connectors that came on my Halo recessed fixtures .They replace the wire nut connectors and are push in types  They were aready installed on the fixtures when I bought them.  You simply stripped the wires and pushed them into the the little plastic connectors.  Should I have cut these off and used a wire nut?  Will I have future problems and should I take down the sheetrock and re-do before I plaster and it is too late?  The attic area is not accessable.  Thanks
Click to expand...


They are known in the business as "insulation displacement" connectors and are great for low current connections, eg: comm wiring.  The jury is still out on their use in household wiring.  The concept is that you are attaching less than an amp of current to wiring that may be carrying much more than an amp.  It's probably OK, but only time will tell how they pan out.  I would rather use a wire nut, but I tend to err on the side of more traditional wiring practices.

If you are getting cold feet on your wiring job, you can pull out the housing from the ceiling without wrecking the sheetrock.  The "can" is usually held in by a couple of sheet metal screws into the ring that mounts in the ceiling.  After you drop the can, you can usually reach the junction box to access the wiring.  Clip, strip and twist on a wire nut.  Wire nuts are cheaper and more positive than an IDC, IMHO.

Chris


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## ScottF

Thanks Chris for taking the time to answer my question.  The plasterer is here today and I didnt have time to take all of the board down but I feel much better now just knowing I can still access the connections by taking the can down.  I didnt realize you could do that.  My biggest concern is if I have a future problem.  Now at least I know I can fix it. Thanks again.  In my mind I knew I should have cut those things off but I figured it the manufacturer put them there they must be good.  I was wrong.  They are 120V fixtures with 90 watt max bulbs so they are drawing 1.33 amps .  That exceeds the 1 amp that they are supposively designed for .  Too close of a margin if you ask me.  Thanks again.
Scott


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## seige101

Also with those stupid connectors, not only are you attaching the load (light it self) but you are connecting the rest of the circuit through that cheap plastic connector, so in a larger kitchen or living room with a lot of recessed lights you could be putting 5-10 amps on those cheap cheesy connectors.

Reddox, the ones on the recessed fixtures require they be stripped before being inserted, so they are more along the lines of a back stab in device, not the insulation displacement type. 





Shamelessly hot linked.


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## Tarmsolo60

ScottF said:
			
		

> Thanks Chris for taking the time to answer my question.  The plasterer is here today and I didnt have time to take all of the board down but I feel much better now just knowing I can still access the connections by taking the can down.  I didnt realize you could do that.  My biggest concern is if I have a future problem.  Now at least I know I can fix it. Thanks again.  In my mind I knew I should have cut those things off but I figured it the manufacturer put them there they must be good.  I was wrong.  They are 120V fixtures with 90 watt max bulbs so they are drawing 1.33 amps .  That exceeds the 1 amp that they are supposively designed for .  Too close of a margin if you ask me.  Thanks again.
> Scott



check your math

90 watts / 120 volts = .75 amp 

the lighting connectors I saw at my electrical suppliers were good for 3 amps, not that I would use them.

I would use 12 for all receptacles, and 14 for all lighting. 14 is much nicer to work with than 12 when making up boxes, and when the circuit is properly loaded there is nothing wrong with it. Remember there is a fill capacity on the boxes depending on the wire size and the cubic inch volume of the box.


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## JPapiPE

12-2 ...20 amp circuits is a great move.... perhaps not this very instant but surely in the future... What does one spend to have 20 amp breakers over 15 amp breakers? Not much...go for the long run and you can't go wrong....the wire and breakers are so slight in price that the path remains clear to me ...do it while you can and you will never look back, at least in your lifetime.


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## Cazimere

I'd go with 14-2 and 15 amp. 12-2 and 20 amp for kitchen, shop/garage and exterior outlets.
Future appliances and electronics will surely be configured towards more efficient use of electricity.


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## Gooserider

I will definitely say that I see 12g on any outlet circuits as an absolute must, preferably w/ 20A breakers, but could live w/ 15A's if I had to...  Lighting circuits are a bit more questionable, but if I had my 'druthers I'd go w/ 12g there as well, though probably sticking w/ 15A breakers.  Reading the future is always a challenge, but while individual appliances MAY get more efficient, it seems a certainty that the NUMBER of things we want to plug in will only increase...  There is no problem w/ a 15A load on a 20A circuit, but the other way around is a problem...  Since I don't know what sort of loads may get stuck in the wall in the future, I'd rather be as ready for them as I can, both by having the larger wire, and by having more circuits than the minimum.  

While having 12g on the lighting circuits is overkill for lights, I think it's a good idea in that it increases the options for adding additional loads later - much easier to tap into a pre-existing lighting circuit than to run all the way back to the panel...

I also think it's good if any room bigger than a closet has two circuits serving it - makes working on one circuit a lot easier if there's another circuit in the room that you can plug into for lights, power tools, etc...

Lastly, I agree that having far more outlets than code requires is a good idea.  I think most of the outlets in our house either have those 6 outlet converters or power strips plugged into them.  Not so much for the shear number of outlets in most cases, but to deal with the space taken up by "wall-wart" plugs...  Again, I see no harm in having unused outlets...

Gooserider


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## CowboyAndy

Gooserider said:
			
		

> While having 12g on the lighting circuits is overkill for lights, I think it's a good idea in that it increases the options for adding additional loads later - much easier to tap into a pre-existing lighting circuit than to run all the way back to the panel...


That would need ALOT of lights... I think thats a bit overkill...



			
				Gooserider said:
			
		

> I also think it's good if any room bigger than a closet has two circuits serving it - makes working on one circuit a lot easier if there's another circuit in the room that you can plug into for lights, power tools, etc...


2 Circuits serving a single bedroom?!?!?!?! 

C'mon Goose, I respect the hell out of you, but seriously lets be realistic. How many times in your life have you had to work on the wiring in an existing bedroom? And how many times of those have you had to use POWER TOOLS to do it???? I know, what if you have to change an outlet and need light? Do it during the day! 



			
				Gooserider said:
			
		

> Lastly, I agree that having far more outlets than code requires is a good idea.  I think most of the outlets in our house either have those 6 outlet converters or power strips plugged into them.  Not so much for the shear number of outlets in most cases, but to deal with the space taken up by "wall-wart" plugs...  Again, I see no harm in having unused outlets...
> 
> Gooserider



My bedroom is 16X16. It was remodeled 3 years ago now... There are 12 receptacles in there. In those 3 years, we have used all of 2 of those receps...

just sayin...


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## Gooserider

CowboyAndy said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While having 12g on the lighting circuits is overkill for lights, I think it's a good idea in that it increases the options for adding additional loads later - much easier to tap into a pre-existing lighting circuit than to run all the way back to the panel...
> 
> 
> 
> That would need ALOT of lights... I think thats a bit overkill...
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Not really - run light circuit as normal, but use 12g - if you need additional lighting OR POWER outlets, the potential is there to tap into that lighting circuit if need be...



> I also think it's good if any room bigger than a closet has two circuits serving it - makes working on one circuit a lot easier if there's another circuit in the room that you can plug into for lights, power tools, etc...
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Circuits serving a single bedroom?!?!?!?!
> C'mon Goose, I respect the hell out of you, but seriously lets be realistic. How many times in your life have you had to work on the wiring in an existing bedroom? And how many times of those have you had to use POWER TOOLS to do it???? I know, what if you have to change an outlet and need light? Do it during the day!
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Again, not unreasonable - lighting circuit and wall outlet circuit.  No problem to plug a lamp into the wall outlet, and if you need to, you can use one of those tacky plug adapters that screws into a light socket - I've had times when doing both was handy.



> Lastly, I agree that having far more outlets than code requires is a good idea.  I think most of the outlets in our house either have those 6 outlet converters or power strips plugged into them.  Not so much for the shear number of outlets in most cases, but to deal with the space taken up by "wall-wart" plugs...  Again, I see no harm in having unused outlets...
> 
> Gooserider
> 
> 
> 
> My bedroom is 16X16. It was remodeled 3 years ago now... There are 12 receptacles in there. In those 3 years, we have used all of 2 of those receps...
> just sayin...
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[/quote]

Well our master bedroom has at least 5 devices just for the bed...  Reading light, clock, GF's CPAP machine, heated mattress pad, compressor for the Select Comfort mattress...  The two office bedrooms would have fully populated outlets except that most of the computer gear is plugged into a UPS, as it is they are crowded.  Most places in our house, there are more outlets with something plugged into them (which may or may not be operating at any given time) than there are vacant.  I usually find that I have to figure out what I can unplug before I plug something else in.  Granted we have more computers and other electronics than some folks, but we have friends that are worse...

The other BIG advantage of additional outlets IMHO is that it makes furniture placement far less of a battle when you have outlets to spare.  No need to worry about burrying one behind the sofa or dresser...

Gooserider


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