# Building hearth extension for insert



## Dunadan (Sep 21, 2007)

I'm thinking about building my own hearth extension for my Revere insert.  

I've searched the forums and read most of the posts about hearth extensions, as well as the Wiki article on Hearth Design.  I also checked my manual for hearth requirements, and all it says is that it must extend 16" (I understand now 18") beyond insert and be non-combustible and at least .018" thick (26 gauge).

Does this mean I don't need to worry about R-values and that the hearth is mainly for spark (log roll-out) protection?

If so, can I just use plywood topped with ceramic tile?  Or can you not put tile directly on plywood and need a cement board as a basic foundation (not for insulation purposes).  Sorry to sound like a newb, but when it comes to tile I am.  Any suggestions on the easiest way to go about this would be great.  

Looking to make my extension about 18" x 48".  Nothing fancy - just want to stop having to use my 2 giant pieces of slate.  I'd like to trim it with some nice wood trim, so my thickness needs to work out with this in mind.

Thanks!


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## nshif (Sep 21, 2007)

Well if nobodys gonna answer this Ill give it a shot;
Id get a piece of 26ga sheet metal and put that directly on the sub floor
Then Id put a 1/2" layer of cement board and then tile.
Id use cement board because youll get better adhesion to the tile then with plywood plus its non combustable, if you drop a log on it and its on plywood your probably going to get a crack, less likely with the cement board.


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## Dunadan (Sep 21, 2007)

Sorry...need to clarify, though I think most of the points above would still apply.

This would be an pad type extension that lays directly over a hardwood floor (or carpet at some point if we decide to put in carpet.  I'm not looking (yet) to put in anything permanent.


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## nshif (Sep 21, 2007)

If its too flexable underneth the tile is gonna crack. I wouldnt put carpert under it.But it doesnt have to be attached, its gonna weigh enough that its not gonna go anywhere. Id attach the metal to the cement with some suitable adhesive.


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## Rhone (Sep 21, 2007)

Yup.  Most specifiy that the hearth needs to have an R-Value, yours doesn't so you don't need to insulate it.  In fact, yours goes a step further and specifies a piece of 26 gauge metal is sufficient protection!  Wow.  Of course, can't hurt to go more.  As for the 18", your manual says you need a 26" hearth from the face of the fireplace.  Since your unit sticks out 10" that's 16" more in front of the loading door, which is common.  Canada requires 18".  

You don't usually want to put tile on plywood if you can help it, the worst thing for tile is a floor that moves.  Tiles hate vibrations, and expansion/contraction can cause the bonds between the tiles/grout/mortar to fail and you get things like tiles that pop or come loose.  It's particularly bad near an insert as, the heat will dry out the wood tremendously in winter causing a massive shrinkage, and in summer the humidity rises causing the wood to exand.  Fortunately plywood does it to a lesser extent than other types.  If you're still inclinded to use plywood the normal procedure is to coat it with a layer of underlayment (pick some up at your local hardware store) which is specifically made to bond to wood.  It's rather similar to cement, you put just a thin coat of it on.  Once it dries, then bond your tile to the underlayment but to avoid the hassles of possibly popping tiles use cement board if at all possible plus, it's added protection as it's not combustible.


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## Rhone (Sep 21, 2007)

I type too slow.  

I think the slate probably the best thing going that being the case.  I don't believe tiles will stay on a thing you move around.


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## titan (Sep 21, 2007)

Dunadan, check out "Hearthpads.com" if your looking for a wood-trimmed hearth extension to sit on your existing floor.I'm not trying to sell them,but they might be a simple fix if you decide against building one.Btw will someone please school me on how to post links to websites?


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## Dunadan (Sep 21, 2007)

Titan - I've seen those and that's what I have in mind, but I was thinking I could build my own for a lot cheaper than $169/$189 and have a bit more control over what I get.

Rhonemas - The problem with the slate is it's not all that great looking and I need 2 slabs to provide the width I need, so it's doubly not great looking.   

You really don't think I could make a moveable pad that wouldn't hold together?  Actually, I probably won't be moving it all that much going forward, as my son is just about ready to walk.  I'll probably be leaving up the Hearth Gate to protect him whether it's burn season or not, so I could really leave the pad in place.

Eventually I want to rebuild my hearth, but that's a next year project.


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## nshif (Sep 21, 2007)

If you dont need to move it much then what I suggested will work but if you do its gonna be heavy and a pain and may not be solid enuf.


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## Rhone (Sep 21, 2007)

You could do it, I personally would use a piece of cement board (heavy!) but you can try the plywood with underlayment.  It's not like you'll break the bank, it will certainly last the first year and, even if you pop a tile in the future look on the web about how to repair it, you just chip away the crap underneath and around, then goop it back up and put back.  If you don't move it, will last years.


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## Dunadan (Sep 21, 2007)

Any plywood in that nshif?  Also, why the metal?  The tile and cement board should be overkill from a combustibility perspective.


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## nshif (Sep 21, 2007)

No no plywood. I just put in the metal because that was what your manual called out. I didnt plan on the cement board as fire protection ( which it is ) but as a better tile backer.


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## Gooserider (Sep 22, 2007)

What is the floor under the proposed hearth?  Carpet or something solid like wood or linoleum?  Carpet may be problematic due to it's being "squishy" but a solid floor, I'd get a peice of Durock cement board and glue tiles to that.  Thin carpet might not be that big of a problem, but the stuff that you go in up to your ankles in would be...

I'm currently in the process of building in an extension to our hearth, in preparation for the VC Encore Cat that will be going on it.  The existing raised brick hearth was designed for a side-load only stove, so it isn't deep enough for a front loader.

I wanted the extension to be flush with the existing carpeted floor, so what I'm doing is removing a strip of carpet and the pad, then taking up the 1/2" particle board underlayment that was there, but leaving the subfloor decking in place.  I am replacing the particle board with a layer of aluminum flashing (on general principles) followed by a layer of 1/2" Durock, which I'll be topping with 1/4" natural slate tiles.

I've been going through all sorts of interesting times on the tech support lines to some of the various supply companies, and have discovered that all cement boards are definitely NOT alike.  I will be updating the Hearth Wiki article shortly to incorporate my findings.  One of which is that Durock seems to be the only brand that goes out of their way to specifically state their suitability for use in hearth construction.  They also suggest using a "Latex fortified" thinset mortar to glue the tiles down with - Flexbond is the one that I will be using, which claims higher than average strength and resistance to flex and tile popping.

Gooserider


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## Dunadan (Sep 25, 2007)

Currently I have a raised hearth (some type of hearth stone over brick) that sticks out about 9".  In front of the hearth is hardwood floor, so what I was originally looking to do is lay a pad over the hardwood.  At some in the near future we want to carpet the entire living room, so I want to keep that in mind while planning.

I am now leaning towards installing the tile directly into the floor.  This insert is never coming out - unless it gets replaced with another because the damper and part of flue were cut out to make room for liner.  So... I figure why not do something permanent for protection.

I'm assuming I have some type of sub-floor - since I have drop ceilings in basement I think it will be easy to determine this.  My only concern now is how exactly to go about cutting out the hardwood.  Obviously if I screw up, it's permanent.  If I can determine how thick the hardwood is (not sure how to do this) I could use a circular saw to cut just that deep into the hardwood, and then cut out the rectangular area where the extension will go?  Only problem would be cutting to the right depth and making sure my cuts are straight.

Has anyone done this with hardwood?  Any tips?


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## Gooserider (Sep 25, 2007)

Dunadan said:
			
		

> Currently I have a raised hearth (some type of hearth stone over brick) that sticks out about 9".  In front of the hearth is hardwood floor, so what I was originally looking to do is lay a pad over the hardwood.  At some in the near future we want to carpet the entire living room, so I want to keep that in mind while planning.
> 
> I am now leaning towards installing the tile directly into the floor.  This insert is never coming out - unless it gets replaced with another because the damper and part of flue were cut out to make room for liner.  So... I figure why not do something permanent for protection.
> 
> ...



I'd lift one of the drop ceiling tiles to see just what you have, but I would expect that you will have some sort of subfloor decking, then maybe a subfloor of particle board or other sheet goods, followed by the visible flooring.

I just did it with a carpeted floor, which made life a bit trickier, but essentially I did just what you suggested, set a circular saw to a bit over the depth of the particle board subfloor plus the carpet, and cut the line.  Use a cheap carbide blade - you may find a nail or two, so you want a blade that is capable of dealing with nails, but not one you'll cry over if it gets messed up. Don't panic about minor grooves in the deck boards, they won't hurt anything.  I used a 1" wood chisel to finish the ends of the cuts where I couldn't get with the saw.

(I also found the circ saw did a great job of trimming the carpet.  I cut out the strip of carpet I was removing first with a utility knife and pulled it out - If I was doing it over, I'd just have gone with the saw from the start...)

Minor variations in the line (less than ~ 1/4") probably won't show / or can be hidden with the grout and whatever threshold treatment you use.  I also found there is a bit of a challenge in fitting the cement board in that your raised hearth may not be perfectly straight, and you will need to do a bit of fitting on that side to get the clearance, or cut some extra space and plan to fill the gaps w/ thinset.

Pick your extension dimensions based on tile units so that you don't have to cut tiles (include allowances for the grout lines) - this reduces hassles and saves work, also it will likely look better

All cement board type products are NOT alike!  Durock specifically lists use in hearths and clearance reduction walls as valid apps in their technical documentation, none of the other brands seem to, and I got mixed answers when calling the various tech support lines ranging from not reccomended (Wonderboard) to non-combustible only (Hardibacker) to "NOT non-combustible" (PermaBase)  At this point, the only cement board product I would feel 100% comfortable with in using for a hearth extension is Durock.  (I would probably consider Wonderboard or Hardibacker for clearance reduction)

Gooserider


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## Dunadan (Sep 25, 2007)

Thanks Goose.  Just got back from Home Depot to check out their tile and cement board options (Wonderboard and Hardibacker).  I already plan to let the space be determined by my tile.  If I can avoid cutting tile, I plan to do so.

Concerning my cement board choice - since my insert only calls for .018" thick non-combustible surface, and tile/natural rock will be thicker than this, I'm thinking I don't need to use a board that is stated to be suitable for hearth situations.  The only real need for this is to ensure I have a good base to secure the tile/stone too.   Am I correct?  If so, I would think my choice should be made based on what will be the easiest product to work with.  From what I saw at HD, it looks like the Hardibacker would be easier to use, and less prone to crumble/break while transporting and cutting.  Maybe I'm wrong?

The only other catch right now is I don't have carpet in this room.  Should I try to build the extension to be level with my current wood floor?  The down side is after adding carpet, it might not be level with it.  On the other hand, if I want to build it higher to try to match the carpet, I can't really do that until I know how thick my carpet will be, which I won't know until I actually go look for it.  Of course, if I don't get around to putting the carpet in, or the wife changes her mind about it, then I'm not level with my floor. Sigh.


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## Gooserider (Sep 25, 2007)

It's a mixed bag.  Hardie didn't give me great feelings when I called their tech support line.  I think it would work, given the "non-combustible" spec but I'd feel more comfortable w/ Durock  (BTW, Lowes does carry Durock)  Remember that tile gives nearly zero thermal protection, and Hardie seems lower than most cement boards.  You don't require the thermal barrier, but I know that I'd feel better with it.  I also know that my local FD guy said that he would like to see a reference saying the product was approved for the application - With Durock I can print it right off the web.

I also put a layer of aluminum flashing under the Durock on my extension - maybe not needed but cheap "overkill"

When you go for the adhesive, I would suggest getting "Flexbond" Latex Fortified Thinset Mortar - Durock says they want something that meets ANSI 118.1 and 118.4, and reccomends Latex Fortified - Flexbond meets both specs.  The pre-mix "Omni-Grip" does not.

In terms of how you build - is the current hardwood floor "real" or is it a laminate?  If you carpet will you be pulling up the floor, or going over it?  Depending on what you pick for carpeting, you may only be talking 1/2 to 3/4" difference, and can "fix" that with the way you do the edge treatment.  I would say that your best bet would be to build for what you have now, flush to half the tile thickness above flush.  Worst case you might have to put a second layer of tile over it later when you do the carpet.

Gooserider


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## Dunadan (Sep 25, 2007)

I'll check out Lowes.  I hate shopping there, as they only feel the need to have 1 register open (2 if it's rush hour) at any one time.  Home Depot on the other hand always has people ready to check you out, as well as self-check out.  But, I'll take a peak since I wasn't happy with the tile/stone at HD.  You're right, if you can get the extra protection and peace of mind, might as well have it.

This is real hardwood, not laminate.  Can you tile over tile/rock without a problem?  I would have thought you wouldn't have a good flat surface doing this.


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## jqgs214 (Sep 25, 2007)

Here is a pick of what I did, but I cut my rug and hardwood floor to fit 2 layers of 1/2" durorock and trimmed it out in oak.  Its really and easy job, probably just as easy as doing a temp pad.  then if you carpet you can just pull up the trim board, carpet to the tile and lay the trim back down.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/8388/


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## Dunadan (Sep 25, 2007)

Thanks wxman.  

I like that look.  

Any tips on cutting into the hardwood?


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## jqgs214 (Sep 25, 2007)

drop cut with a circular saw and chiseled the corners square.  If you go a liitle too far the trim will cover it.  or else your chiseling through about 1/2 a board.


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## Gooserider (Sep 25, 2007)

Dunadan said:
			
		

> I'll check out Lowes.  I hate shopping there, as they only feel the need to have 1 register open (2 if it's rush hour) at any one time.  Home Depot on the other hand always has people ready to check you out, as well as self-check out.  But, I'll take a peak since I wasn't happy with the tile/stone at HD.  You're right, if you can get the extra protection and peace of mind, might as well have it.
> 
> This is real hardwood, not laminate.  Can you tile over tile/rock without a problem?  I would have thought you wouldn't have a good flat surface doing this.



I haven't had that much trouble w/ checkout at Lowes, although I don't shop there very often (HD is more convenient) - Minor giggle about the self checkout @ HD - A few weeks ago some guy apparently got upset going through the self checkout at an HD, and started whaling on the machine with the crowbar it was giving him a hard time about purchasing - Did about $10K worth of damage to the machine, dropped the crowbar and walked out.  They are still looking for him.  The host on the show had some advice for him if caught - Insist on a Jury Trial, nobody who has ever used one of those self checkouts will vote to convict...  :lol: 

Now if I use one of the people checkouts @ HD, I apologize and explain that I didn't want to use the self checkout since I wasn't purchasing a crowbar....

Gooserider


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## BrotherBart (Sep 25, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> I haven't had that much trouble w/ checkout at Lowes, although I don't shop there very often (HD is more convenient) - Minor giggle about the self checkout @ HD - A few weeks ago some guy apparently got upset going through the self checkout at an HD, and started whaling on the machine with the crowbar it was giving him a hard time about purchasing - Did about $10K worth of damage to the machine, dropped the crowbar and walked out.  They are still looking for him.  The host on the show had some advice for him if caught - Insist on a Jury Trial, nobody who has ever used one of those self checkouts will vote to convict...  :lol:
> 
> Now if I use one of the people checkouts @ HD, I apologize and explain that I didn't want to use the self checkout since I wasn't purchasing a crowbar....
> 
> Gooserider



As Paul Harvey used to say: "Now on page two".

The guy got upset when he accidentally hit the button for Spanish instead of English. When he couldn't understand the machine he put the pry bar through the screen.


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## titan (Sep 25, 2007)

So he tested the crowbar on the self-checkout machine,wasn't happy with its'performance, and changed his mind about buying it.--Sounds logical....


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## Dunadan (Sep 26, 2007)

Well determining the thickness of my floor components isn't going to be all that easy.    I tried to check along the edges of some of the rooms, but they are either covered by baseboard heat, or multiple moldings.

I checked in the drop ceiling of the basement, and I can see a layer of plywood (the sub-floor?) above the joists (2x10s).  I see no planking, but between the joists running down the middle of the floor are some wood cross braces.  If there was planking, I'm guessing I would see it looking up through the drop ceiling?  I did notice that right underneath what I assume is either the actual firebox or hearth there is a triple 2x10 joist. 

The only way I can get any indication of the thickness of the sub-floor vs. hardwood is by measuring the holes I've drilled through the floor to run electronic/computer cables.  The thickness of the entire floor looks to be 1.5".  Peaking into these holes as best I can with a flashlight, the sub-floor looks to be about 1/2", which would put the hardwood at about 3/4".  Does this sound right?

I can just hear my wife if I wind up ruining the hardwood and sub-floor by calculating wrong  :bug:


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## Gooserider (Sep 26, 2007)

Dunadan said:
			
		

> Well determining the thickness of my floor components isn't going to be all that easy.    I tried to check along the edges of some of the rooms, but they are either covered by baseboard heat, or multiple moldings.
> 
> I checked in the drop ceiling of the basement, and I can see a layer of plywood (the sub-floor?) above the joists (2x10s).  I see no planking, but between the joists running down the middle of the floor are some wood cross braces.  If there was planking, I'm guessing I would see it looking up through the drop ceiling?  I did notice that right underneath what I assume is either the actual firebox or hearth there is a triple 2x10 joist.
> 
> ...



Well, it doesn't sound like the floors that I'm familiar with, but it doesn't sound unreasonable either (Though you seem to be missing 1/4" - .5" plus .75" = 1.25" not 1.5"...  I would suspect you might have 3/4" ply in the subfloor.  I would say to make your cut on the hardwood floor with the circ saw set at about 7/8" - won't make to much of a groove but would cut the hardwood nicely.  If you wanted to get fussier, try drilling with a small hole saw in the area you will be removing, this will give you a "core sample" that will let you see what you have and get some dimensions off it.

However I'm not a house construction guru, you might see if Elk or one of the other "trades guys" might be more specific.

Gooserider


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## Dunadan (Sep 26, 2007)

I meant 1 1/4" - (1/2" sub-floor plus 3/4" hardwood) to my best guess - but it could be some other variation to come to 1 1/4".

I may decide to build the extension up about 3/4" to allow for carpet, in which case I'd be looking at adding about 1 1/2" to what I cut out.  Any reason I can't take some of that up with plywood so I don't have to use as much cement board?  I assume the tile/stone will be about 1/4" but will know for sure once I pick it out.  

Should I allot a thickness factor for the layers of quickset?


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## nshif (Sep 26, 2007)

Usually plywood sub floor is 3/4" T&G;, which would make your flooring 1/2" If your going to build it back up why not just leave the hardwood down? Put the metal down and then the cement board or just the cement board if your not using metal.


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## jqgs214 (Sep 26, 2007)

If I recall the durarock comes 3'x5'.  should be plenty for 2 layers.  If you cut out the hardwood, (say 7/8"-1") mine was really old (80 years)and about 1" thick so the durarock took up the hardwood floor layer and the tile and mastic took up the carpet so its just about flush.  My hearth was exactly 5' wide so it worked out perfectly for me.


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## Dunadan (Sep 26, 2007)

> Put the metal down and then the cement board or just the cement board if your not using metal.



I thought about this last night but in places my hard wood does not seem level, and in others it tends to have some flex to it.

I was worried that it wouldn't provide as stable of a base as cutting out the hard wood (leveling things as needed with mortar?) and building up with several layers of rigid boarding.

Am I wrong?


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## jqgs214 (Sep 26, 2007)

Thats the way I did it and it seems to have worked well for me, I can jump up and down on my tile and there is no flex.


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## nshif (Sep 26, 2007)

Well  you could level it out with fixall and screw down the areas that flex. If you feel you need to take it up drill a 1" hole in the area that you are going to take up and you should be able to determine the thickness from there. after its up you can plug the hole in the subfloor with fixall. Once you know the thickness drop cut it whith a circular saw set about 1/8" deeper. Youll still have to chisel out the corners and end cuts.


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## Gooserider (Sep 26, 2007)

Dunadan said:
			
		

> I meant 1 1/4" - (1/2" sub-floor plus 3/4" hardwood) to my best guess - but it could be some other variation to come to 1 1/4".
> 
> I may decide to build the extension up about 3/4" to allow for carpet, in which case I'd be looking at adding about 1 1/2" to what I cut out.  Any reason I can't take some of that up with plywood so I don't have to use as much cement board?  I assume the tile/stone will be about 1/4" but will know for sure once I pick it out.
> 
> Should I allot a thickness factor for the layers of quickset?



If one layer of Durock meets the R-value requirement, there is no reason you couldn't build back up w/ plywood, but IMHO you are better to use the cement board.  Cement board is cheap, less than a lot of plywood last time I checked.  It also gives that much more protection, which never hurts, and could be of value if you ever upgraded to a different insert that had more stringent requirements.

As to the thinset layer thickness, I don't know the exact answer, but I would guess not very much, assuming that you aren't trying to build thickness...  

I used a 3/16 x 5/32 triangle notch trowel when putting down the layer of thinset to attach the Durock to the subfloor, and will probably be using a 1/4" x 1/4" x 1/4" square notch trowel to attach my slate to the Durock.  Since both are essentially giving me 50% coverage of the area, and assuming that: A, the stuff has to go somewhere, and B, that it doesn't shrink significantly, that the approximate thickness of the thinset layer would be about 1/2 the thickness of the notches in the trowel you use...

I believe 1/4" is a pretty good guess for the tile thickness, assuming you aren't going to be using anything strange for tiles - the 1/4" seems to be pretty much of an industry standard from the little that I have seen.

Gooserider


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## Dunadan (Sep 26, 2007)

Thanks all....these forums are great.   

Now the hard part...picking my tile  :shut:


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## jqgs214 (Sep 26, 2007)

OH I never "glued my durorock" I just screwd it to the subfloor.  It doesnt move so I think i'm ok


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## Hogwildz (Sep 26, 2007)

I didn't glue my cement board down either, did screw the hell out of it.
Hasn't budged.


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## Gooserider (Sep 27, 2007)

I don't know just how much difference it makes to cement the board down, but it seems to me like it might make things a bit stiffer by filling in any gaps and "laminating" the layers together.  I glued and screwed mine, but mostly because the Durock technical literature said to...

If I don't know just what I'm doing, my general rule is to look for the most authoritative source I can find, and follow it's advice unless I have a definite reason not to.  This is especially the case if the incremental cost is low compared to the total job.  I figure that thinset is cheap.

Gooserider


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## Dunadan (Sep 27, 2007)

So you know what I'm working with.  Here's my hearth now.


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## nshif (Sep 27, 2007)

Well its obvious you need some front protection. Frankly I wouldnt burn that stove again untill its installed. Any of the above mentioned ideas  will work just get it done before you start burning.


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## Dunadan (Sep 27, 2007)

I don't burn with it as you see it.  I have a couple large pieces of 1.5" thick slate that I lay down in front.  I just moved them out of the way to take the pic.  I'll post pics once I'm done.


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## elkimmeg (Sep 27, 2007)

How complicated or easy do you want to make the hearth? Do you want to match the height and brick work and make it look like it was always there?  
Did you know with wire lath an mortar one can lay  down bricks in a bed of mortar and pretty much match your hearth?  You can also lay tile and match floor height  slate,
 endless possibilities All of which will reg quire cutting out the oak flooring BTW 3/4" thick 

What I would do is lay out the tile pattern with gout spacing on a piece of plywood or even in place in front of the stove. It does not hurt to be a bit larger. I would let full tiles 
 determine the final size .where no tile would need to be cut.   Now that you have the layout  size mark it out on the floor on the oak you are going to cut.

Before doing so it is so much easier to make the hearth to match taking out a full width of oak flooring  You might be able to adjust the grout spacings and still  finish 
up on a full with oak flooring You may need to only make the parallel cut in front of the fireplace.  

Now for the tip that will ensure a straight cut Like goose said adjust blade height a smiggeon over 3/4" Measure the saw frame to the blade  say it is 1.5"  set pieces of strapping or straight pieces of pine the distance from the saw frame 1.5"  larger and use thes strapping pieces to ensure a straight cut .It also takes the worry out of over cutting.

Excuse me I missed a step You have to nail the straight edges in place 4 penny finish nails will probably do  After done a little wood filler and putty the holes.
 A small price to pay for the straightest,  professional looking ,cut possible.. Good planning usually brings better results  If you did not follow or want more info just let me know 

This is my real profession carpentry


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## Dunadan (Sep 27, 2007)

Thanks Elk.  I believe more information is always better.

I didn't want to build up the extension to the same level as I figured I would have a hard time matching the brick and hearth stone, and since the hearth stone is rough cut on the edges, without a lot of work (assuming I could find a match) I was worried any extension would look "added on".   An entirely new hearth was an option, but not financially possible at this time.   Also, because we have a 10-month old, and my wife does daycare, we will be surrounding the stove with a Hearth Gate.  In order to have enough room inside the gated area to load the stove, we'll need to be able sit right in front of the stove, and a flush to floor (or added carpet) installation would allow for this - where a raised hearth wouldn't.

I plan to layout my tile on the floor to get the spacing - letting the tile determine the size (more or less).  I was thinking it might be easier to end on a seem in the hardwood, so I'm glad that you are saying the same.  I hadn't thought a single parallel cut might be all I need, so I'll plan to do that first, and see if everything else slides out.

As for making a straight cut, let me repeat back in my own words, as I think I'm clear on what you are saying when you say -



> Now for the tip that will ensure a straight cut Like goose said adjust blade height a smiggeon over 3/4” Measure the saw frame to the blade say it is 1.5” set pieces of strapping or straight pieces of pine the distance from the saw frame 1.5” larger and use these strapping pieces to ensure a straight cut .It also takes the worry out of over cutting.



My circular saw has an adjustable base so I can control the depth of my cut.  This is what I would set a bit over 3/4" (measuring from bottom of base to edge of saw).  I was thinking of then measuring the distance from the edge of the base frame to the blade, nailing a piece of wood this far from where I need to cut, so that I can use it as a guide.  So long as I can keep the edge of the base along the guide, I get a straight cut.  The only thing that didn't make sense in what you said was that this would help prevent an over cut.  I'm not sure how it would do that.   Do you propose two straight pieces nailed into place that the saw would go between?  That would ensure the saw didn't leave the proper line.

The only other information that would be helpful is whether you had any suggestion on tile color/style.  We have a rustic country home and are planning to put in a darker color carpet - not sure what color yet so I can't match it and don't want to wait until we get around to buying it.  I was thinking either a dark color tile (like gray) with some browns/purple in it to accent the existing hearth, or a lighter color tile (like the lighter bricks) with the darker brown/purple in it from hearth.  Not sure which would look better in the long run, and wife *tells* me she doesn't care


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## jqgs214 (Sep 27, 2007)

Have you been to the tile store yet?  You'll gag at the choices and still not find the perfect tile.


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## elkimmeg (Sep 27, 2007)

If you hand is not steady and you  wist the saw it could cut on the other side of the line creating an over cut or cutting out too much
 using a straight edge guide will prevent this.  You also could set up blocks or guides to prevent cutting more behind the saw or in front 
 After 3 pages of suggestions time to make the operation as easy as possible. I guess that's why I get big bucks ..

 my job today is to install the trim that yesterday I custom cut for this job. Using my molder cutter router and bench saw, I custom cut the moldings on this job to
 closely match what is existing.. Many of these moldings have been discontinued.  The hardest molding to match, was the window side stops. I ended up making them in two pieces


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## Gooserider (Sep 28, 2007)

I just registered on the John Bridge / Tile your world website that seems to be a very good source of tile info - they seem to do for tile what Hearth.com does for wood burning  :coolsmile:   The explanation that they gave was that the reason to put down thinset under and between hearthpad layers is to fill in any gaps and ensure that the backerboard is 100% supported.  As the response I got put it "The screws hold the backerboard down, the thinset holds it UP...  Makes sense to me.

Also the question was asked about how much thickness to allow for a layer of thinset.  I had guessed at about 50% of the trowel notch size.  The response I got was that there were a number of variables such as surface irregularities, the exact angle one holds the trowel at, and so forth, but that my guess was a reasonable one, just don't put bets on it.

Gooserider


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## Dunadan (Sep 28, 2007)

Ok, I think I've decided that if I'm going to go through all the work to build an extension, I might as go all the way and just replace my hearth (which I don't really like).  After thinking it through, while it will be a lot more work, I don't think it will add that much cost to my project.

The only question I'm still pondering, is once I remove the hearth, I'm going to need to build something back up to support the portion of my insert that sticks out.  Unless removing layers of brick from inside the firebox is an option.

The fireplace firebox is raised about 6" above the floor, so I'd either need to tear out this much "stuff" after which I'd need to probably buy a new surround for my insert and figure out how to reconnect the liner to lower insert, of I need to build up about 6".

I'm thinking something that is slightly larger than the footprint of the insert that extends onto hearth.  The rest of the hearth will be built to be flush with future carpet that will be in this room.

*Any ideas of the easiest way to build up something under just the front of the fireplace?  *

I've got lots of idea (i.e. brick, wood framing covered with cement board, cinder block, plywood/cement board layers, etc.) but in a real world I'm not sure what would be best.

The bigger part of this question is what can I cover it with?  The rest of my "new" hearth will be ceramic tile, I'm looking to use Mohawk's Riverstone - Cotto tile.  

*Can I top whatever I build up with tile like this?  Or will the weight of my insert break it?*

As always, thanks for the help!


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## Dunadan (Sep 28, 2007)

I think I've got my answer.  I've been doing so many searches in these forums and over at the John Bridge tile forum (to make sure I understand exactly what I'm getting into, especially on the tile side) that I forgot to re-search on building a hearth here (after deciding to remove my entire hearth).

Once I get the exact measurements for what I need to build up I'll finalize my plans, but based on this thread, I'm thinking either metal or wood studs, topped with tile will work.  I'll just need to be a bit careful when putting my insert back in so I don't crack any tile.


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## Gooserider (Sep 30, 2007)

Dunadan said:
			
		

> I think I've got my answer.  I've been doing so many searches in these forums and over at the John Bridge tile forum (to make sure I understand exactly what I'm getting into, especially on the tile side) that I forgot to re-search on building a hearth here (after deciding to remove my entire hearth).
> 
> Once I get the exact measurements for what I need to build up I'll finalize my plans, but based on this thread, I'm thinking either metal or wood studs, topped with tile will work.  I'll just need to be a bit careful when putting my insert back in so I don't crack any tile.



Looking at the John Bridge Site, use their "Deflecto" calculator to check, but I'm not sure just a Durock and tile floor would be strong enough.  Given the small size you are after, I suspect you might be better off just to stack up some bricks or blocks, cover w/ Durock, and tile over it.  Alternatively I would definitely use steel studs as opposed to wood, and be sure to put enough beef on top of them to support the weight.

Gooserider


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## Dunadan (Sep 30, 2007)

Looking at the John Bridge Site, use their “Deflecto” calculator to check, but I’m not sure just a Durock and tile floor would be strong enough.  Given the small size you are after, I suspect you might be better off just to stack up some bricks or blocks, cover w/ Durock, and tile over it.  Alternatively I would definitely use steel studs as opposed to wood, and be sure to put enough beef on top of them to support the weight.

Gooserider 

Hey Goose.

My floor passes the Deflecto test, and below where the platform is going to go it's either solid concrete or plywood over 3 - 2*10s.  Once I get my floor built up with plywood and Hardibacker, I'll know exactly how high to make my riser.  I'm leaning towards using either brick or some type of cement block, since it will require less construction and tile can go right on the outside.  Still have not decide on the top portion yet.

Also, I went with Hardibacker.  I was all set to get the Durock at Lowes, but when I was going through trying to find a nice looking sheet, and all were somewhat crumbly on the edges I changed my mind.  The HB looked so much nicer sitting in a pile right next to the Durock.  All the edges are square, nice stamped layout for drilling, I couldn't resist.

BTW...the Hardibacker site says 

"Non-Combustibility
HardieBacker™ cement board is recognized for use in non-combustible construction in NER-405."

Since all I'm looking for is non-combustibility...I couldn't resist.


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## Dunadan (Oct 2, 2007)

Hi all,

The hearth replacement is going well.  No pictures at this point, but here is what I've done to date -

- Removed old hearth (not surround), including concrete slab and brick underlayment.
- Cut out hardwood where new hearth will extend.
- Replaced 1/2" sub-floor under old hardwood with new 1/2" plywood, then built up with 3/4" plywood and 1/4" Hardibacker to be slightly above floor.
- Floated a deck of mud (masonry term for 4:1 mixture of sand:cement, though I used Quikrete's Sand/Topping Mix as a shortcut) to fill in the concrete area under old hearth and bring it level with Hardibacker. 

I am at the point where I need to build the raised portion of my hearth (to support insert extension). 

In the end, all horizontal and vertical surfaces will be covered in 6x6 natural stone slate tiles.


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## Dunadan (Oct 8, 2007)

All done. 

It's not trimmed yet, but that's because we're planning on laying carpet in this room soon.

Now instead of looking like I just stuck an insert into my fireplace (which is what I did), it looks like the hearth was designed for the insert (which it now was)  :cheese: 

Before and after....


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## Harley (Oct 8, 2007)

Very nice - Clean and simple looks


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## Gooserider (Oct 9, 2007)

Looks good.

I'm actually working on my own hearth extension right now - I got the Durock down a couple weeks ago, but just got my cheapo HF tile saw this weekend, so I've been figuring out how to use the saw and then cut and dry lay my random size slate flooring - I've got about 3/4s of the 12' long by 18" wide strip layed out.  Tomorrow I get to finish doing the dry layout and write it all down - maybe even start doing the wet lay, but that will depend on the timing - I have to worry about being ready for Town Meeting tomorrow night.

However I will definitely have the slate down by this weekend, not sure about the grout.

Gooserider


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## titan (Oct 9, 2007)

Well done Dunadan.....it looks good,and much safer.Nice tile job.


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