# kiln dried cord wood!



## APersonalMatter (Dec 28, 2010)

now that im burning away like an over-concerned madman...

this year i am burning kiln-dried wood, while the other wood seasons.. is there a difference in how i would load my stove? i assume the drier the wood, the quicker it burns? or is that hogwash? does the kiln-dried heat up quicker than typical seasoned cord-wood?

im not burning kiln-dried lumber or that sort of thing- regular kiln-dried wood...

thanks for your input on my silliness!

-chris


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## wkpoor (Dec 28, 2010)

I guess I gotta ask where do you buy kiln dried firewood? 
As for will it burn faster. It will only burn as fast as the air you give it will allow and thus the heat output will be accordingly.


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## NH_Wood (Dec 28, 2010)

My stove manual specifically states to NOT burn kiln-dried wood. I suppose for the fear of overfire. Cheers!


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## Kenster (Dec 28, 2010)

I'm curious where you got it.  What kind of wood is it?  Did it come already split?  How much did you have to pay?   How can you tell if it was REALLY kiln dried?


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## begreen (Dec 28, 2010)

If the insert is behaving well and under control, then it could be alright. How would you say it's burning for you? How are the insert temps doing?


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 29, 2010)

While I've never burned kiln dried wood I have burned some very, very dry wood. Right now we have some 7 year old wood sitting on our porch and it burns great. 

The biggest thing that happens when you burn really dry wood is that you get more heat from your wood because you don't have to get rid of so much moisture when you put the wood in. You turn the draft down sooner and further and that is the big benefit.


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## fishingpol (Dec 29, 2010)

It was always my understanding that kiln-dried was done for insect and fungus killing so wood can be stored inside.  What is the moisture content of your wood?  Kiln-dried is a way of controlling the removal of water from the wood in a quicker manner.  Just because it says kiln-dried, there is still moisture in wood.  You need to find out what it is.


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## LLigetfa (Dec 29, 2010)

There is a difference between kiln dried and heat treated but even kiln dried firewood is not likely to be dried more that naturally well seasoned.

As for kiln dried dimensioned lumber, even that is all over the map WRT MC.  Pretty well all lumber used in stick framing is kiln dried but still has considerable MC.  Much more MC than say, what a cabinet maker would want to see.


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## Battenkiller (Dec 29, 2010)

fishingpol said:
			
		

> It was always my understanding that kiln-dried was done for insect and fungus killing so wood can be stored inside.  What is the moisture content of your wood?  Kiln-dried is a way of controlling the removal of water from the wood in a quicker manner.  Just because it says kiln-dried, there is still moisture in wood.  You need to find out what it is.



You are largely correct.  For starters, there is no financial incentive to kiln dry firewood except for the fact that it is state-mandated to clear the critters out.  It costs a lot of money to kiln dry firewood.  It is worth it if you can get $6-12 bd.ft. for the stuff, but we're talking cordwood here.  At about 25 cent/bd.ft. for cordwood, it would just be easier and a lot cheaper to store it someplace for a year if it weren't for the buggies.   At any rate, I wouldn't worry about burning it, it is likely the same MC as any 2-3 (or 7) year old wood stored outside in a dry location.  It will be at the equilibrium moisture content for the average outdoor relative humidity in your area.  Period.

If it really was kiln-dried to furniture grade standards (6% MC), you don't want to be burning that stuff straight in your stove.  If you give it enough air it will burn too fast and hot, if you cut the air way back it will burn super dirty and inefficiently.  Your stove likes wood in the 20% MC band the best.  Get a cheap moisture meter and learn to use it is my advice.


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## Mad Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

Kenster said:
			
		

> I'm curious where you got it.  What kind of wood is it?  Did it come already split?  How much did you have to pay?   How can you tell if it was REALLY kiln dried?



 A couple years ago I read an article about a company that kiln dries fire wood. They package it and sell it in small bundles at convenience type stores. Mostly In the Boston area I think. It was a good size operation. I believe it was a mix of hardwoods.


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## SteveKG (Dec 29, 2010)

For what it's worth, I spent about ten yr. working in a factory making furniture. Our lumber came in on train cars and was kiln dried. We tested the wood with moisture meter religiously, as using wood too "wet" would lead to furniture coming apart and/or warping and/or ticked off customers. 

We found the range of meter readings to be from a low I don't recall to over 25%. We had to stack and sticker the wetter stuff and set up large fans to blow through the layers to get it down to acceptable levels. Labor intensive and maddening, plus it took up a lot of space to sticker these big bunks of wood. The boss was forever arguing with lumber brokers to try to get a price adjustment on the load due to the labor cost of dealing with "wet" wood. So I don't trust kiln dried as far as moisture goes.


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## RNLA (Dec 29, 2010)

I burn furniture scraps from my friends shop all the time. I use it mostly for kindling but the bigger scraps get in there too. I do not have any trouble with how to regulate it. The material ranges from oak to walnut and everything in between. The sizes are from slivers to say 6 inches by 16 long.


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## Battenkiller (Dec 29, 2010)

SteveKG said:
			
		

> We found the range of meter readings to be from a low I don't recall to over 25%. We had to stack and sticker the wetter stuff and set up large fans to blow through the layers to get it down to acceptable levels. Labor intensive and maddening, plus it took up a lot of space to sticker these big bunks of wood.



Back when I was selling kiln-dried wood, I'd tell customers to get the stuff inside the workshop for at least three months for it to achieve equilibrium with the humidity of the shop environment.  Easy enough for a small custom shop to do, but it must have been an outright nightmare for a factory.


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## APersonalMatter (Dec 29, 2010)

hi all!
the wood is the ubiquitous "mix of hard woods"... i got it for 250 delivered for the cord from a local landscaping company, though im not sure if they get it from somewhere else- which at the time seemed like a deal to me, considering the stove was due in later that week! i believe they said it was dried at 250 degrees in the kiln, yada-yada, stored inside -yada-yada, de-barked (mostly yad-yada.. i heard well priced comparatively with free local delivery and ready to burn now and i was sold...

it has been burning well- good hot fires, but it seems to burn quickly, and i've shied away from doing a complete full load due to the concern it would get too hot, too fast- and as i am a new wod burner (only since thanksgiving week), im still learning how to best feed the beast, as it were, and learning when to do things like reload and what-have-you (many thanks to the folks who have chimed in on this site!). my problem is that i have no experience with any other wood aside from this kiln dried to compare it to, as far as how it burns, how quickly it gets hot- so i can only give you my brief time of personal experience.. its seems to definitely be burning clean, no dirty glass or anything. 

my sweep is coming to help finish the work on the hearth (he lives down the street, which is helpful!) and i'll grill him with the same questions im bothering you guys with!

im getting the hang of it, one burn at a time...


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## raybonz (Dec 29, 2010)

APersonalMatter said:
			
		

> hi all!
> the wood is the ubiquitous "mix of hard woods"... i got it for 250 delivered for the cord from a local landscaping company, though im not sure if they get it from somewhere else- which at the time seemed like a deal to me, considering the stove was due in later that week! i believe they said it was dried at 250 degrees in the kiln, yada-yada, stored inside -yada-yada, de-barked (mostly yad-yada.. i heard well priced comparatively with free local delivery and ready to burn now and i was sold...
> 
> it has been burning well- good hot fires, but it seems to burn quickly, and i've shied away from doing a complete full load due to the concern it would get too hot, too fast- and as i am a new wod burner (only since thanksgiving week), im still learning how to best feed the beast, as it were, and learning when to do things like reload and what-have-you (many thanks to the folks who have chimed in on this site!). my problem is that i have no experience with any other wood aside from this kiln dried to compare it to, as far as how it burns, how quickly it gets hot- so i can only give you my brief time of personal experience.. its seems to definitely be burning clean, no dirty glass or anything.
> ...



I saw one of the kiln dried trucks on Rt. 3 on the way back from Boston a few weeks ago.. What town are they located in? Can you post any info you have?

Thanx,
Ray


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## fishingpol (Dec 29, 2010)

Pretty darn good price for KD in this area.  Especially if it is a full cord.  I'd pay it.


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## fraxinus (Dec 29, 2010)

I've become a huge fan of kiln dried cord wood - more heat, easier starting fires with an EPA stove, no worries about insects, etc. I'm sure there are many areas of the country where wood air dried under cover is just as good, but if you live in a humid location, air drying even for two years will not get wood to the 15 to 20% moisture content of the kiln dried. Besides, most dealers season their wood in windrows or large piles. The moisture content of the wood on the top can be very different from the wood on the bottom. In fact, the very term, "seasoned" derives from the practice of allowing wood to age for a short period of time. Cut in the fall and winter, split in late winter and early spring, leave exposed for the summer -  a single season - burn in the winter. This was perfectly fine in the days of pre EPA stoves and I used it with complete satisfaction in the old Defiant, but I'm now burning kd exclusively.

As far as price, tests by the Maine Forest Service have indicated a 25% greater price per cord for kd equals the lower price for traditionally seasoned wood. The reason? More of the btu content of the kd wood goes into effective usable heat rather than boiling off the moisture. Current price around here for "seasoned" wood varies from 225 to 250 per cord. I paid 275 per cord for kd last summer, winter prices are currently slightly above 300. Another kd advantage: if you find yourself running short of wood, it's available pretty much year round with a little advance notice.


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## APersonalMatter (Dec 29, 2010)

im thinking it would have behooved me to get more at that price then! i actually got a current price from the same company and its 350 including delivery (in scituate), so maybe i just got lucky.. i dont have a moisture meter, but will try to get a hold of one and check the wood.. it is nice to keep the wood inside and not worry about pests. 

im also going to see if i cant snag a handful of a friends wood (while it has been outside since hes owned the house for a 4 years, he doesnt use it, and is being laissez faire seasoned) just to compare...


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## oldspark (Dec 29, 2010)

fraxinus said:
			
		

> but if you live in a humid location, air drying even for two years will not get wood to the 15 to 20% moisture content of the kiln dried. .


 I guess if you are talking about firewood dealers but its easy enough to get it to 15 to 20% in less than 2 years if you do it your self and know what you are doing and it is humid here in the summer months.


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## CTYank (Dec 30, 2010)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> I guess I gotta ask where do you buy kiln dried firewood?
> As for will it burn faster. It will only burn as fast as the air you give it will allow and thus the heat output will be accordingly.



If it helps, I find it pretty easy to generate my own. Take year-or-two outdoor air-dried splits, stack them in racks along both sides of little stove for a few weeks (making certain that wood temps never exceed 170 F, and you've got some great fuel.

Lights readily, burns cleanly. Enables you to really close down primary air quickly and have complete combustion.


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## spirilis (Dec 30, 2010)

wow KD firewood at <$300/cord would be awesome... the one serious local source of KD firewood around here (HotSticks, from Fort Loudoun PA) I did the math and I think it's around $700/cord even if you pick up the skid at their location.  (talking $700/cord, not $700/skid, the skid should be cheaper but it's not a whole cord so I did the math)


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## fishingpol (Dec 30, 2010)

At the supermarket today, KD shrink wrapped bundle of 5-6 splits at $4.49  per pack.  The price for convenience...


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## JustWood (Dec 30, 2010)

spirilis said:
			
		

> wow KD firewood at <$300/cord would be awesome... the one serious local source of KD firewood around here (HotSticks, from Fort Loudoun PA) I did the math and I think it's around $700/cord even if you pick up the skid at their location.  (talking $700/cord, not $700/skid, the skid should be cheaper but it's not a whole cord so I did the math)



At  $300/cord it's doubtful it's KD. Heat treated maybe ,but not KD.


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## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2010)

shamelessLEE said:
			
		

> spirilis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not necessarily.  Probably depends on where you are.  A local lumber mill here started selling KD firewood a couple years ago when the housing construction market collapsed, and I've been over the place pretty thoroughly and it's definitely KD.  It's fabulous stuff, about 20 on my moisture meter, and now I'm kinda spoiled.  They charge $250 a cord (full cords carefully measured) plus a $30 delivery charge to me, about 30 miles away, which is pricey but entirely reasonable given that there are lotsa folks here selling 2-month "seasoned" firewood for $200/$225 a cord.

VT is, of course, a big wood-burning area, and there are few dealers but untold numbers of guys who cut a few extra cords from their own woodlots on weekends to sell to their neighbors.

So it's like everything else, dependent on local market conditions.


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## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2010)

Kenster said:
			
		

> I'm curious where you got it.  What kind of wood is it?  Did it come already split?  How much did you have to pay?   How can you tell if it was REALLY kiln dried?



Mine here in VT was $250 a cord plus a $30 delivery charge for about a 30-mile distance.  It was split, but heeugge splits, most of them, that require further splitting down to be usuable in most stoves or even fireplaces.  The wood is from really big trees, so most "splits" are basically big squares of wood.  It's the usual "mixed hardwoods," primarily rock maple, which is most abundant here, with some red maple, some red oak, some ash and some beech.  That's what I could identify, but there isn't a speck of bark on any of it, so some stuff I'm not really sure about until it goes in the stove and I see how it burns and heats.

You have only to look at this stuff to know it's not anything else but.  But I did go to the place, see their operation, talk to them about how they do it, etc.  This isn't "furniture grade," they aim for 20 percent moisture as the best for woodstoves, and when I split and checked a few pieces they delivered, darned if it wasn't 20 percent pretty much on the nose.

VT is a small rural state, and as a result people have the habit of honesty because if they cheat you, word spreads fast and they're out of business.  You'd want to be more suspicious in a metro area and really check out the operation and its reputation as thoroughly as possible, and take your maul and moisture meter to check out what they have on hand.


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## basswidow (Dec 30, 2010)

Hot Stiks (kiln dry firewood) is probably the largest operation on the east coast.  Here's an article about their factory:

http://multitekinc.com/app/newsletter/article_pdf/25.html

They run non stop using 4 multitek 16 way processors and their kilns use sawdust as fuel to heat the logs to a final 8 -12 % moisture content in less than 48 hours.  It's an incredible business.  But it's a convience product for the occasional fireplace user.  I swear - they are so dry you can lite them with a single match.  

I agree that it would *not *be cost effective.  And I believe the moisture content is too low.  When I've used kiln dry,  I mix it in with other wood.  If I filled my box with KD - even on the lowest air setting,  it would burn out of control - too hot and may damage my stove.  

$ 250 a true cord delivered for kiln dry does sound like a good price.

Last year, a guy was selling pallets of KD from Estonia that was kicked back from the stores for having mold.  Seems they put the pallets in shipping containers while it was still hot and then the cold sea air caused condensation and mold.  He was selling them $ 100 for a pallet.  I got one and mixed it in to extend my wood supply.  It was good stuff for the price.  Easy to just go pick it up here in NJ.  They loaded on my pickup with a fork lift.  I ran alittle short last year - so it came in handy.  The mold was pretty bad.


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## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2010)

basswidow said:
			
		

> Hot Stiks (kiln dry firewood) is probably the largest operation on the east coast.  Here's an article about their factory:
> 
> http://multitekinc.com/app/newsletter/article_pdf/25.html
> 
> ...



Interesting.  Thanks for the link.  Sounds like this outfit is responsible for most of those plastic-wrapped bags of firewood supermarkets and convenience stores carry.

I agree 8-12 percent is way too low for a woodstove.  The place I've used has similar equipment, also fueled by sawdust, but they dry only to 20 percent for their bulk firewood sales.  You can't quite light it off with a match, but it doesn't take much of a coal bed to get it going, a definite advantage in a very small stove.  I have some nice 3 to 4-inch rock maple splits that have been stacked outside in full sun and wind for three years now, and the kiln-dried rock maple is definitely easier.

Firewood from Estonia??  Wow.  That's a head-banger.


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## spirilis (Dec 30, 2010)

I did roll up to their operation (Hot Sticks), it was a big lot and a good distance away from the main route too.  It was definitely a serious operation.  And yeah the firewood burned fast in my stove (I had bought several packages to try in my Jotul 8 downstairs, and used it occasionally when my wife and I watched movies down there).  Cleaned the glass up nicely once it turned to coals.  Haven't bought any this year but it is mostly sold at supermarkets/convenience stores.  I do wonder if there are any other local vendors here selling KD firewood in the <=20% range...


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## Battenkiller (Dec 30, 2010)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> Mine here in VT was $250 a cord plus a $30 delivery charge for about a 30-mile distance.  This isn't "furniture grade," they aim for 20 percent moisture as the best for woodstoves, and when I split and checked a few pieces they delivered, darned if it wasn't 20 percent pretty much on the nose.
> 
> VT is a small rural state, and as a result people have the habit of honesty because if they cheat you, word spreads fast and they're out of business.  You'd want to be more suspicious in a metro area and really check out the operation and its reputation as thoroughly as possible, and take your maul and moisture meter to check out what they have on hand.



That's an awesome price for perfect firewood.  You get a lot of extras with that stuff over a cord of green.  Number one, the wood will burn now.  It will have shrunk slightly in the kiln, so you will get about 8-10% more wood than if you bought green.  The wood will throw out more heat than green wood, and it has no bark, further increasing the amount of burnable wood fiber in the load.  I got a load of locust this year.  It was standing dead, and plenty dry, but the bark was still loosely attached.  I peeled the logs before bucking them and there was a surprisingly large pile of thick, corky locust bark left when I was done.

The only downside for you, Gryf, is that you can't feed your little stove the steady diet of black birch I remember you like so much.  How's that KD rock maple working for you?  I'm hoping it's not enough heat so you can go ahead and get a bigger stove and sell me that sweet little Tribute.  :cheese: 

FWIW the only honest firewood dealers near me live in the Argyle, NY area... just this side of the NY/VT border.


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## LLigetfa (Dec 30, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> The wood will throw out more heat than green wood, and it has no bark, further increasing the amount of burnable wood fiber in the load.  I got a load of locust this year.  It was standing dead, and plenty dry, but the bark was still loosely attached.  I peeled the logs before bucking them and there was a surprisingly large pile of thick, corky locust bark left when I was done...


LOL you are opening yourself to that debate again?  Many will argue that there are BTUs in the bark although they cannot quantify just how many BTUs there are.  I read where one guy would call up his wood monger to come clean up the mess of bark that fell off the wood he paid good money for and to replace it with an equal quantity of wood.

Taking the bark off and burning it in the kiln makes sense.  I'm *not *going to touch the shrinkage comment.


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## gyrfalcon (Dec 30, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> That's an awesome price for perfect firewood.  You get a lot of extras with that stuff over a cord of green.  Number one, the wood will burn now.  It will have shrunk slightly in the kiln, so you will get about 8-10% more wood than if you bought green.  The wood will throw out more heat than green wood, and it has no bark, further increasing the amount of burnable wood fiber in the load.  I got a load of locust this year.  It was standing dead, and plenty dry, but the bark was still loosely attached.  I peeled the logs before bucking them and there was a surprisingly large pile of thick, corky locust bark left when I was done.
> 
> The only downside for you, Gryf, is that you can't feed your little stove the steady diet of black birch I remember you like so much.  How's that KD rock maple working for you?  I'm hoping it's not enough heat so you can go ahead and get a bigger stove and sell me that sweet little Tribute.  :cheese:
> 
> FWIW the only honest firewood dealers near me live in the Argyle, NY area... just this side of the NY/VT border.



Oh, this is glorious stuff and I've become quite spoiled.  With finances as rocky and erratic as they are these days for someone who's self-employed, it's been a struggle to have enough dough on hand far enough in advance for the stuff to season.  So it's a huge relief to have this source of immediately burnable wood when push really comes to shove.

But even this perfect rock maple doesn't throw off enough heat to get my stove past about 325.  I was able to recognize and pull out a few days' worth of beech from it and have that stashed away for those really awful days/nights of midwinter.  I've also got a couple cords of not quite seasoned beech in mostly very large splits, which I'm struggling to cut down far enough to burn.  No black birch this year, alas.  I'm still trying different firewood suppliers, but I think from now on I'll go back to the guy I got the BB from last year, though he charges on the high end for green wood around here.  The one disadvantage to the kiln operation is that you can't ask for specific types of wood.  You get a mixture of whatever they're cutting that day.

I just popped for that little 4-ton electric splitter Northline Express is having a great deal on, so that will make life much easier. 

I hope never to have to try to do business with firewood dealers.  You get a much better deal and a for sure nicer relationship with the many guys around here who just cut a few extra cords from their woodlots to sell every year, and no worries about mistakenly being taken for a sucker.


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## Battenkiller (Dec 30, 2010)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> LOL you are opening yourself to that debate again?  Many will argue that there are BTUs in the bark although they cannot quantify just how many BTUs there are.
> 
> I'm going to touch the shrinkage comment.



Black locust has a very light and corky bark.  It has about 1/4 of the density of the locust wood itself, maybe less.  No room in my stove for it, certainly wouldn't want to pay for it if given the choice.  Shagbark hickory bark, OTOH has lots of BTUs.  It's real thin as well, so it don't take up much volume- in the stove or on the wood delivery truck.  All of my shagbark this year had loose bark.  I pulled it off to dry and use it a piece at at time as kindling.  I'll tell you this, you wouldn't want to torch a box stuffed full of hickory bark.  It burns fast and very hot.

And not one soul is going to make a snide remark about wood shrinkage?  C'mon, what happened?  Everybody sober up after the Holiday?


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## LLigetfa (Dec 30, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> And not one soul is going to make a snide remark about wood shrinkage?


LOL... I just noticed I left out a word so suffice it to say I agree with the 10% figure.  George Costanza was in the pool and might claim much higher percentage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cUNNKzj_Nc


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## woodchip (Dec 30, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> All of my shagbark this year had loose bark.  I pulled it off to dry and use it a piece at at time as kindling.



Best thing to do with loose bark, though some of the standing dead trees over the back of us have had the bark stripped by squirrels, so my next wood collection may well be barkless. 
I suspect collecting standing deadwood now is about as good a way to acquire next winters woodpile as anything, although I would buy some kiln dried if it were $250 a cord here, we are lucky to see it green at that price, and it would save quite a bit of storage space


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## fraxinus (Dec 31, 2010)

Just to clarify a bit. Within a radius of 30 miles from my house there are three dealers (probably more that I don't know about in other areas) selling kiln dried firewood. All add a per mile delivery charge if they have to go more than 25 miles one way. Price at the moment is $309, $305, $315 per cord. All three were in the 275 to 285 range this past summer. One discounts orders of more than 2 cords. All are supplying genuine kiln dried (15-20% moisture content), not just heat treated wood. Each year, according to the one dealer I know pretty well, all three of them see a significant increase in demand. At least two have built bigger, more fully automated kilns this past summer. Dealer says it's a fantastic word of mouth product -once people try it they're sold - like me - and tell others about the difference.

Now a question. If the average relative humidity is, say, 60%, at what point is equlibrium reached for air dried wood?


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## oldspark (Dec 31, 2010)

gyrfalcon posted "But even this perfect rock maple doesn't throw off enough heat to get my stove past about 325"
That is not right, just a few pieces of crap wood should get it above 325.


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