# How would you advise this guy........



## heaterman (Mar 20, 2012)

I spoke with gentleman a couple days ago who is replacing a failed outdoor corn burner and wants to continue the use of wood/bio-mass of some kind for heating his 6,400 sq ft load. He is looking at a Garn and a pellet boiler along with slight consideration of a high efficiency LP boiler.

His first preference is the Garn but he asked me what I thought given his age (60ish). He is very active and in excellent health .
He does not have his own wood supply and although he could augment his yearly consumption with a few face cords off his property, most of the fuel would have to be purchased. So basically he is looking at either buying wood or buying pellets.

Fuel costs per million btu's would be roughly $31.50 for LP, $13.70 for pellets and cut split cordwood is about $8.65 based on local prices for these fuels. (LP @ 96%, pellets <85% and wood 85%)

My concern, and his, is that given his age, handling cordwood may get to be a problem in 10 years or so. On the other hand, he does not like the added complexity of the pellet boiler and being tied to a fuel he can't produce himself.

If you were in his shoes, what would you be thinking?


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## JP11 (Mar 20, 2012)

The only near "fixed" cost fuel would be wood from his lot.  Worst case, he hires a logger in to get him ahead a bunch, then goes at his own pace.

Any neighbor kids around?  A high school kid could be hired to feed the garn with his supervision.

Just a couple thoughts.  All other forms of heat are world market dependent.  His wood, on HIS land isn't going anywhere.

JP


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## ewdudley (Mar 20, 2012)

heaterman said:


> If you were in his shoes, what would you be thinking?


 
Well he's got his shoes and I've got mine.

But finding myself in a very similar situation I took the price of Garn in a Garn Barn and went ahead and bought a solid inexpensive gasification boiler, a Keystoker rice coal boiler, and three tractor-trailer loads of bagged coal on pallets, enough to last fifteen or twenty years, and stacked it inside out of the sunlight.

Don't know if I'll ever burn any of the coal, but it's cheap insurance against rising fuel prices and/or loss of ability to process cord-wood.

--ewd


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## dogwood (Mar 20, 2012)

Heaterman, ask him what he wants to deal with. I just hit sixty this month and will be splitting some cherry wood this weekend. I plan on staying active, and dealing with wood should be a good way to to do just that, well into retirement. He could always buy split wood if all else fails, instead of tandem loads of logs to cut up himself.

Seems like the Garn takes some fairly large pieces of wood so the amount of splitting would be less than for other boilers. Part of my overall plan is to start aging backwards from here on in, so maybe he needs to be more realistic in planning what he might be able to do. Maybe there are some seventy year olds on the site who might give you a better handle on what advice to give. I'd be curious to hear what he decides to do.

Mike


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## maple1 (Mar 20, 2012)

My thoughts: go modular as much as you can.

Do separate storage & gassifying boiler (i.e. not a Garn - although I don't know their full capabilities). Pick a gasser that a pellet head is available for. Keep expansion/add on options as open as possible - who knows what the near future will bring in changing tech & energy prices. That way if storage is in place and every thing else is set up, you could add on almost anything or swap appliances as future needs dictate. I'm thinking if he goes Garn, he is pretty well confined to wood burning for as long as he keeps it?


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## 711mhw (Mar 20, 2012)

I would be wondering if I wanted to keep 6400sf heated at 65 or 70 years old and beyond. (that is unless it's a workshop!)


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## heaterman (Mar 20, 2012)

711mhw said:


> I would be wondering if I wanted to keep 6400sf heated at 65 or 70 years old and beyond. (that is unless it's a workshop!)


 
It's his workshop and I gotta tell you I would probably kill for one like it. He's into restoring antique machinery and engines of all types and runs a specialty saw blade business out of it also. Full compliment of machine tools, mechanic's tools etc. It's awesome.


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## leaddog (Mar 20, 2012)

I'd say go with the garn. I'ts easy to feed and he could hire a kid to stack some wood if his health took a turn for the worse. With him heating the shed I'd think he would be out there alot any way. I'm hitting the big 70 myself and as long as I can get around I'll be using cord wood.
Pellets are more compact but you still have to pour them in, stack them in a dry place, and the price is still dependant on fossil fuel.
leaddog


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## goosegunner (Mar 20, 2012)

I like the idea of a gasifier with a pellet head. With my work schedule I have thought many times it would be nice for my wife if I could switch to pellets on the days I am away from home.

You could also stock up on pellets just in case wood supply ran short or wasn't ready. Several pallets of pellets when price is low would make a nice emergency supply if ever sick or injured.

gg


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## huffdawg (Mar 21, 2012)

I know a 75 year old man that cuts and sells firewood for a living . He is still in great shape.  How bout cutting wood till he cant anymore or doesn't feel like it then switch to pellets. I thought pellet boilers were a fairly hands free type of operation?

Huff


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## jebatty (Mar 21, 2012)

> ... but he asked me what I thought given his age (60ish).... My concern, and his, is that given his age, handling cordwood may get to be a problem in 10 years or so.


 
10 years is a lifetime at any age, but I hope the fellow is not planning cold storage already! Given a failed outdoor corn burner, what are his current emitters? what best interfaces with the existing hot water system? Since he is interested in bio-mass, why not give the local firewood-stovewood suppliers and their families a piece of the action rather than shipping his money elsewhere? That way his money will do double duty good.

Deep Portage installed a Froling FHG L-50 last fall with 4000 gal pressurized storage to serve a 6000 sq ft residential and classroom building, including DHW, and the install was in a separate 10' x 15' building. Two water-air hx coils in the plenums of the two existing LP hot air furnaces, plus some baseboard, and a plate hx to keep the electric hot water heater filled with hot water. I don't think LP came on once this winter and the breaker on the electric for the hot water heater stayed "off." The FHG was fueled both by male and female staff. Near effort-less.

One real plus for the FHG L-50 is that the controller can be easily set to full output (50kw) for the real cold part of winter, and then spring/fall set to 40kw or 30kw output. This is three boilers in one, flexible and meets a whole variety of needs.


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## huffdawg (Mar 21, 2012)

Hi Jim ,  If you have 4000 gals. of storage what advantage is there to having the three output settings ? Do you ever set the boiler onto the lower settings.     

Thanx Huff


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## Fred61 (Mar 21, 2012)

Some people are old at 60, others are old at 70, etc. In my case, despite many health issues, I feel young at 70.
If I had a couple log loads sitting in the yard, I would dive into them after my morning coffee and stick with it all day.
The only thing that slows me down is that I have to keep stopping to hike up my trousers because my belt doesn't do it's
job since I developed a big belly and lost some ass.


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## skfire (Mar 21, 2012)

My "retired" farmer friend, is 78, swings a an ancient 24lb sledge to pound posts in the ground, hoists deer up in the barn by hand
and splits 3-4 cords by hand!
He is a model to look up to and a reminder of "days past". ..
(sidenote for Steve: Btw, he also gets the same Rye loaf and goes through it like "Lee went through Richmond")

So arguably this is not for everyone, but something we should maybe aspire to.

To Steve's OP, I must concur with Jim on the following:
a)the "localized approach", even if it means hiring a couple of young bucks to shred some wood.
b)a good gasser(I maybe partial to Froling, but the ease of operation and quality is ridiculous), the price tag was not as steep as most think,
   especially when one adds up all the intangibles and inclusions.

and/or

c)If he has low emitters....things get a lot easier..especially with room for Garn in the shop
d) I think a dependence on pellets creates a secondary problem, even though the convenience is undeniable, but again see the farmer "model" above.

In the end to each his own, but  the way this world is going, a more collective effort and responsibility seems a feasible solution.

Scott


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## skfire (Mar 21, 2012)

> Hi Jim , If you have 4000 gals. of storage what advantage is there to having the three output settings ? Do you ever set the boiler onto the lower settings.
> 
> Thanx Huff


 
In my case, for summer DHW only usage, I isolate the one tank, so now I am running a single 400gal tank, so I can ratchet the boiler output setting down.

Scott


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## jebatty (Mar 21, 2012)

> huff: If you have 4000 gals. of storage what advantage is there to having the three output settings ? Do you ever set the boiler onto the lower settings.


 
Good point. The advantage, however, is that at lower output settings flue temp goes down some and therefor efficiency goes up some. Probably not a big deal in DP's case, but for anyone with more limited storage, the ability to change output could be quite useful during periods of lower demand.


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## heaterman (Mar 21, 2012)

To answer Jim's very pertinent question on emitters......The heating system is 6,400 feet of thick slab radiant floor in a very well insulated building. 8" wall cavity filled with wet blown cellulose and 16" in the attic.  Heat loss is only 118,000 @ -15* outside and 65* inside. Normal winter temps bring that number down to about 65,000.There is also a fair amount of solar gain during the day in the south work area due to short eave overhang and nice windows and everything else about the building is just plain done right. No corners cut on construction......like I said, I would probably kill for a place like this......
There is already a plate heat exchanger in place along with all zone controls for the 3 main areas in the building.
I would be hard pressed to come up with a more ideal application for a Garn given that the building will heat with water as low as 105* for the vast majority of the winter. The original installer of the system (not the OWB company) did an excellent job on the piping and controls, using an injection pump design to dump boiler temperature into the floor loops via Tekmar input.


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## heaterman (Mar 21, 2012)

sidenote for Steve: Btw, he also gets the same Rye loaf and goes through it like "Lee went through Richmond")....or Patton going through Europe......


Scott  I am nearly in mourning over the fact that the loaf of bread you sent is gone. My better half asked, "what did you say this guy does?" and then commented that you may have missed your true calling in life. That loaf forever changed my definition of the word bread.

Thanks again!!


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## 711mhw (Mar 21, 2012)

Fred61 said:


> I developed a big belly and lost some ass.


LOL! - I rely heavily on suspenders or bib overalls!


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## Willman (Mar 21, 2012)

He could fab up a small rolling lift to load the wood right in. The Garn could be sold down the road if needed, Whoever buys the shop would need to heat it. I say get it and buy wood CSD and he can hire it stacked. Forget about LP IMHO.


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## rkusek (Mar 22, 2012)

heaterman said:


> To answer Jim's very pertinent question on emitters......The heating system is 6,400 feet of thick slab radiant floor in a very well insulated building. 8" wall cavity filled with wet blown cellulose and 16" in the attic. Heat loss is only 118,000 @ -15* outside and 65* inside. Normal winter temps bring that number down to about 65,000.There is also a fair amount of solar gain during the day in the south work area due to short eave overhang and nice windows and everything else about the building is just plain done right. No corners cut on construction......like I said, I would probably kill for a place like this......
> There is already a plate heat exchanger in place along with all zone controls for the 3 main areas in the building.
> I would be hard pressed to come up with a more ideal application for a Garn given that the building will heat with water as low as 105* for the vast majority of the winter. The original installer of the system (not the OWB company) did an excellent job on the piping and controls, using an injection pump design to dump boiler temperature into the floor loops via Tekmar input.


 A Garn does sound ideal for that setup.   Maybe set him up with an electric or LP backup to cover those situations like illness, injury, or out of town.  I would think those options wouldn't cost that much to add and not cost that much more than pellets given that heat load plus it's automatic.   He sounds like the type that would be in the workshop as long as he can get around.   He could stockpile wood years in advance and use a pallet fork on a tractor like others have mentioned to bring wood from the pile next to the boiler.  Should he ever be physically not capable of firing the Garn once a day, but still able to live on his own, that would be something pretty easily for a family member, retired friend, etc. to do.  I like the idea of supporting the local guys too when you can no longer to the work yourself.


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## skfire (Mar 22, 2012)

heaterman said:


> sidenote for Steve: Btw, he also gets the same Rye loaf and goes through it like "Lee went through Richmond")....or Patton going through Europe......
> 
> 
> Scott I am nearly in mourning over the fact that the loaf of bread you sent is gone. My better half asked, "what did you say this guy does?" and then commented that you may have missed your true calling in life. That loaf forever changed my definition of the word bread.
> ...


 

Hey Steve, very kind of you and thank you..
maybe I will build an oven an a trailer and get to NoLo Michigan for some weekend baking...LOL
Glad you enjoyed it.....here is what they looked like out of the oven...

Btw, tell this nice gentleman to build an oven in that shop right next to the Garn...he'll have the Ultimate set up!

Scott


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## Tennman (Mar 22, 2012)

HM, In 9 months I am that guy. As appealing as the Garn is to me now that I'm more boiler savy, the ability to upgrade to a Froling or the next best lambda thing in a few years really appeals to me. But you're a Garn guy so that's not what you asked. But my response as a healthy 59 YO, is my wife and I both love running our boiler and due to my work demands I can't process all of what we use. But even buying 50% of our usage, and I mean having it split, delivered, and stacked where I want it, I'm WAY ahead financially vs what is now our backup. I split when I want and can, and bring home a bunch of pallets from the shop every year. I'd much rather carry a couple of spits vs dealing with bags of anything. I find carrying bags of corn around for the deer a pain! Keeping my eyes open for the next generation nuclear, self-igniting, wood gasser that will plug and play where my BioMass is now..... Maybe in 5 years.... just because I find this stuff so fun (or maybe a Garn). Tell him heck yeah.


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## maple1 (Mar 22, 2012)

Tennman said:


> HM, In 9 months I am that guy. As appealing as the Garn is to me now that I'm more boiler savy, the ability to upgrade to a Froling or the next best lambda thing in a few years really appeals to me. But you're a Garn guy so that's not what you asked. But my response as a healthy 59 YO, is my wife and I both love running our boiler and due to my work demands I can't process all of what we use. But even buying 50% of our usage, and I mean having it split, delivered, and stacked where I want it, I'm WAY ahead financially vs what is now our backup. I split when I want and can, and bring home a bunch of pallets from the shop every year. I'd much rather carry a couple of spits vs dealing with bags of anything. I find carrying bags of corn around for the deer a pain! Keeping my eyes open for the next generation nuclear, self-igniting, wood gasser that will plug and play where my BioMass is now..... Maybe in 5 years.... just because I find this stuff so fun (or maybe a Garn). Tell him heck yeah.


 
My earlier suggestion of modularity, and a unit that will fit a pellet head was with the thinking of accomodating possible future bulk pellet deliveries - big truck backs up to basement window, runs his delivery hose thru the window into the big bulk bin in the basement, and fills. Auger from bin to pellet head takes care of the rest. I'm hoping the future will maybe bring that kind of thing my way in 20 years or so - my crystal ball doesn't work very good though. I guess my main thought is try not to restrict future options, now, and keep as many open as possible.


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## pybyr (Mar 22, 2012)

Could one create an "alternative firing door" that would go on the front of a Garn and allow it to utilize a pellet burner head (or for that matter, a propane or oil burner head)?  There's certainly a lot of heat exchange surface area in the Garn.  Maybe even do it with the alternative head on a rolling cart (maybe with attached medium size moving pellet bin on the cart) and some sort of clamps to the mouth of the Garn's firing chamber, so that it could be quickly rolled up to or away from the Garn?


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## willworkforwood (Mar 22, 2012)

heaterman said:


> ....He does not have his own wood supply and although he could augment his yearly consumption with a few face cords off his property, most of the fuel would have to be purchased. So basically he is looking at either buying wood or buying pellets. .......My concern, and his, is that given his age, handling cordwood may get to be a problem in 10 years or so. On the other hand, he does not like the added complexity of the pellet boiler and being tied to a fuel he can't produce himself.


Guess I'm not completely understanding this - does it mean he's planning to normally buy wood, but wants to have the fall-back of getting it on his own if necessary?  Seems like the only way those 2 statements make any sense.  And I'm also the fly in the ointment in saying that the Garn (or any other expensive boiler) doesn't work financially, IMO.    Assuming 20-25K for the complete install of a Garn big enough to heat his load, and also adding in the cost of C/S/D firewood; it seems like (too) many years before that goes into the black.   Different story if he WANTS to burn bio, and it doesn't matter to him that the finances aren't going to work in his favor (is that the case here?).   In saying this, I'm assuming it would be just a few thousand $$ to buy another of whatever just went kaput, and continue asis.  If that's not the case, I'll stand corrected.   Now regarding his age, outside of the financial aspects, here's my take on that.  When I bought my boiler 4 years ago, I was 59.  At 63, I continue to cut wood - as often and as much as I want to - 2 years ahead and gaining all the time.  This will, of course, one day come to an end.  But I have a plan for that too.  When I finally kick off, my wife is going to put me up on one of the stacks, Sioux warrior-style.  I've calculated that after a year drying in the sun and wind, my residual value will be 97 btus.  So the whole age thing is nothing but a win-win


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## skfire (Mar 22, 2012)

Tennman said:


> HM, In 9 months I am that guy. As appealing as the Garn is to me now that I'm more boiler savy, the ability to upgrade to a Froling or the next best lambda thing in a few years really appeals to me. But you're a Garn guy so that's not what you asked. But my response as a healthy 59 YO, is my wife and I both love running our boiler and due to my work demands I can't process all of what we use. But even buying 50% of our usage, and I mean having it split, delivered, and stacked where I want it, I'm WAY ahead financially vs what is now our backup. I split when I want and can, and bring home a bunch of pallets from the shop every year. I'd much rather carry a couple of spits vs dealing with bags of anything. I find carrying bags of corn around for the deer a pain! Keeping my eyes open for the next generation nuclear, self-igniting, wood gasser that will plug and play where my BioMass is now..... Maybe in 5 years.... just because I find this stuff so fun (or maybe a Garn). Tell him heck yeah.


 

I dont know about nuclear..but self igniting and fully automated is out in Europe:
http://www.econergy.ltd.uk/products...93&PHPSESSID=1fe58379ba62142fea408eb5bfcbb62f
and video


scott


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## Tennman (Mar 22, 2012)

Huh.... you know you're getting old when boilers start to look sexy........ but red would really look good next to my splitter and Ranger in the mancave. I'm good..... for a while.


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## leaddog (Mar 23, 2012)

willworkforwood said:


> Guess I'm not completely understanding this - does it mean he's planning to normally buy wood, but wants to have the fall-back of getting it on his own if necessary? Seems like the only way those 2 statements make any sense. And I'm also the fly in the ointment in saying that the Garn (or any other expensive boiler) doesn't work financially, IMO. Assuming 20-25K for the complete install of a Garn big enough to heat his load, and also adding in the cost of C/S/D firewood; it seems like (too) many years before that goes into the black. Different story if he WANTS to burn bio, and it doesn't matter to him that the finances aren't going to work in his favor (is that the case here?). In saying this, I'm assuming it would be just a few thousand $$ to buy another of whatever just went kaput, and continue asis. If that's not the case, I'll stand corrected. Now regarding his age, outside of the financial aspects, here's my take on that. When I bought my boiler 4 years ago, I was 59. At 63, I continue to cut wood - as often and as much as I want to - 2 years ahead and gaining all the time. This will, of course, one day come to an end. But I have a plan for that too. When I finally kick off, my wife is going to put me up on one of the stacks, Sioux warrior-style. I've calculated that after a year drying in the sun and wind, my residual value will be 97 btus. So the whole age thing is nothing but a win-win


 
Here in Michigan you can buy wood for $125 a CORD cut split and delivered all day long. Last year I got 17 cord delivered 8in and under of oak for 1500 bucks. I did split it for my boiler but cord wood is cheap here and it looks like it will be for the forseeable future. Now propane is HIGH, pellets are not bad but are tied to fossel fuel, corn is higher than pellets, cherry pits are alittle cheaper than pellets and oil forget it.
In this case with the room, aready set up for low temp transfer, the garn is the way to go in my opinion.
But if this year is any indication of things to come he won't need any heat except maybe a couple days in mid Jan. The highest temp ever in March here was 82* and we have broken that 5 times this year already with the high of 87*
leaddog


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## willworkforwood (Mar 23, 2012)

leaddog said:


> Here in Michigan you can buy wood for $125 a CORD cut split and delivered all day long. Last year I got 17 cord delivered 8in and under of oak for 1500 bucks. ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## heaterman (Mar 23, 2012)

leaddog said:


> Here in Michigan you can buy wood for $125 a CORD cut split and delivered all day long. Last year I got 17 cord delivered 8in and under of oak for 1500 bucks. I did split it for my boiler but cord wood is cheap here and it looks like it will be for the forseeable future. Now propane is HIGH, pellets are not bad but are tied to fossel fuel, corn is higher than pellets, cherry pits are alittle cheaper than pellets and oil forget it.
> In this case with the room, aready set up for low temp transfer, the garn is the way to go in my opinion.
> But if this year is any indication of things to come he won't need any heat except maybe a couple days in mid Jan. The highest temp ever in March here was 82* and we have broken that 5 times this year already with the high of 87*
> leaddog


 

It's even less expensive up here. I did some checking for the guy and found a company that will deliver 10 face cord loads for $550. That's cut to your specified length and everything larger than 6" diameter is split.


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## Donl (Mar 23, 2012)

heaterman said:


> It's even less expensive up here. I did some checking for the guy and found a company that will deliver 10 face cord loads for $550. That's cut to your specified length and everything larger than 6" diameter is split.


 
That's $165 a cord which is more than $125 a cord that Leaddog can get it for.  Still a good price though.


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## heaterman (Mar 24, 2012)

Donl said:


> That's $165 a cord which is more than $125 a cord that Leaddog can get it for. Still a good price though.


 
Hmmmmm.......  Maybe my math is whacked. I figured it like this......a full cord or pulp cord is 4'x4'x8' if you ordered your wood in 2' lengths you would get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord. That means the supplier would be bringing you 5 full cords for $550 or $110 per cord.  No?


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## Gasifier (Mar 24, 2012)

heaterman said:


> Hmmmmm....... Maybe my math is whacked. I figured it like this......a full cord or pulp cord is 4'x4'x8' if you ordered your wood in 2' lengths you would get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord. That means the supplier would be bringing you 5 full cords for $550 or $110 per cord. No?


 
16" is typical face cord length. Three of those face cord in a full cord (48" depth). $550 for 10 face cord. That equals $55 a face cord. $55 x 3 = $165/full cord. Or a good deal.


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## Clearview (Mar 24, 2012)

Sounds right to me!


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## Donl (Mar 24, 2012)

heaterman said:


> Hmmmmm....... Maybe my math is whacked. I figured it like this......a full cord or pulp cord is 4'x4'x8' if you ordered your wood in 2' lengths you would get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord. That means the supplier would be bringing you 5 full cords for $550 or $110 per cord. No?


 
OK, That's 10 half cords for $550, not 10 face cords.  That is a good price!


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## heaterman (Mar 24, 2012)

Donl said:


> OK, That's 10 half cords for $550, not 10 face cords. That is a good price!


 
Yep. I'll buy that definition. "Face cord" is an arbitrary term.


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## Gasifier (Mar 24, 2012)

Heaterman, First you said this.

It's even less expensive up here. I did some checking for the guy and found a company that will deliver 10 face cord loads for $550. That's cut to your specified length and everything larger than 6" diameter is split.

(If they cut it to your specified length, can you specify you want it to be 36" long and get a sh!tload more wood?)  

Then you said this.

hmmmmm....... Maybe my math is whacked. I figured it like this......a full cord or pulp cord is 4'x4'x8' if you ordered your wood in 2' lengths you would get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord. That means the supplier would be bringing you 5 full cords for $550 or $110 per cord. No?  

Now Marriam Webster dictionary says this*:* Definition of _FACE CORD: _a unit of wood cut for fuel equal to a stack 4 × 8 feet with lengths of pieces from about 12 to 16 inches.

I am just curious as to how much the wood will cost the guy you are advising? If you are talking about face cord in your first description above, 10 face cord for $550, then he will get a certain price per full cord. ($165 a full cord)

If you are talking about what you said in your first description, 2' lengths you will get 2 face cord out of 1 full cord, then he will get a certain price for that full cord.  ($110 a full cord)

That is a big difference in price. Not argueing with you here. Just curious if you know what the supplier is considering a face cord, or full cord, for that matter. You first said 10 face cord for $550. Then you said the supplier will be bringing you 5 full cord for $550 or $110 per cord.

Not trying to be a p.i.a., or argue what a face cord is. Just trying to get the correct price that the gentlemen is going to be getting the wood for.?

I am lost. Sorry.


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## heaterman (Mar 24, 2012)

Gasifier said:


> Heaterman, First you said this.
> 
> It's even less expensive up here. I did some checking for the guy and found a company that will deliver 10 face cord loads for $550. That's cut to your specified length and everything larger than 6" diameter is split.
> 
> ...


 

I actually called the guy and he said they will deliver 10 face cord cut to any length you request up to 24" . That's as long as he can get out of his processor. So from that I would assume that a face cord to him means 4' x 24" x 8'. 

Face cord is as much a geographic thing as it is something in Websters...........maybe we should try the "Urban Dictionary"


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## Gasifier (Mar 24, 2012)

24"  That is a great price! Where I am from you generally get anywhere between 12-16" depth or length in a face cord. If this guy will deliver 24" length he is selling twice the wood, or close to it, for the same price. Even if your stove needs shorter wood you could order it 24" and cut it in half!  That is a great price. $110 for a full cord cut, split and delivered. So buying wood by the usual face cord length around here. That is $36 a face cord cut, split, and delivered. Great price! I would buy good hardwood cord wood at that price all day long. And say the heck with c/s/s my own.


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## Jim K in PA (Apr 5, 2012)

I am late to the party in this discussion, but I had one other thought for your client Steve.  The residual value of the whatever equipment he installs now should be added to his equation.  A 10 year old GARN probably has at least another 20 years of life left in it, perhaps much more.  That unit probably could be sold for a substantial portion of his initial investment, and that equity put toward his choice of replacement.  Just a thought.


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## jpgarnva (Apr 5, 2012)

Jim K in PA said:


> I am late to the party in this discussion, but I had one other thought for your client Steve. The residual value of the whatever equipment he installs now should be added to his equation. A 10 year old GARN probably has at least another 20 years of life left in it, perhaps much more. That unit probably could be sold for a substantial portion of his initial investment, and that equity put toward his choice of replacement. Just a thought.


 
I agree with Jim on the "return" of the return on investment.  Not only that, when your time is up it doesn't matter how old or young you are.  Tell him to do whatever he feels the best with.  As for me and my clan, we had to kick the propane addiction or starve.  Garn for us.  Three kids...only a matter of time before my c/s/s is T/M/J!


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## SmokeEater (Apr 5, 2012)

willworkforwood said:


> This will, of course, one day come to an end. But I have a plan for that too. When I finally kick off, my wife is going to put me up on one of the stacks, Sioux warrior-style. I've calculated that after a year drying in the sun and wind, my residual value will be 97 btus. So the whole age thing is nothing but a win-win


I'm older than you willworkforwood and when I tore out my old coal-oil-stickwood hot air system and put in a $$ pellet boiler oil backup radiant radiators undercounter and fan-forced suspended hot water heater my thoughts were similar to yours.  I still cut wood, but now will sell it to local gasser owners to get cash to buy pellets (until I can't do it anymore and maybe need the Sioux stack).  But here in NNY a cord is 80 cubic feet of wood piled tightly.  Or a cord is 4' x 4' x 8', a face cord is 1/3 of a full cord.  When I sell my gasser wood, it will be a good price, say $60 for a third of a cord or a "face" cord (here in NNY), or $180 for a full cord of 20% MC split beech, hard maple, and yellow birch.  This area is a very large wooded area, most people think of NY city when thinking of New York, but the Adirondacks and surrounding area are larger than many states and a major industry here is logging, pulp, high grade to low grade, wood chips, pellet manufacturers, private and public landowners that maintain and harvest some of the very best hardwoods and softwoods for every possible purpose in all the globe.  These guys know wood.  I'm also going to supply 24" or any custom cut length to gasser owners, but will charge according to the fractional relationship to the 80 cubic foot cord.  So a "face" cord of 24" 20% MC beech split and ready to be picked up will sell for about $90.


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## Hankovitch (Apr 9, 2012)

Hello all. If a cord of wood is 4' x 4' x 8'...doesn't the math work out so that this 128 cubic feet?.......Regarding cost of fuel for a Garn, I bring our horse trailer to one of the local businesses where they cut apart and rebulid wooden pallets. They make a 'box' from a 42x48 pallet, box being very close to 4x4x4, and fill it with wood not suitable for remanufacture of pallets. I have them load three of these 'boxes' into my trailer using their forklift, I shut the door, and give them $15.00 (that's right, $15.00 total... doing the math it's about $11.00 per cord). I haul it home and take each box off the trailer with our Bobcat. We do have to cut the pieces in half with a chop saw and re-stack the halves in another box....so you have to add in the time to cut those sticks in half....couple hours for the 3 boxes. Still pretty cheap.
It took a while for us to find the solution (found in this Forum, thank you all very much) to not just minimizing but eliminating the HUFFING when burning such dry fuel. We find that if we stack this (VERY dry...kiln-dried) wood as tightly spaced as possible when we load the Garn, and have the load positioned quite close to the back of the  burn chamber we get very little smoke except at the first of the burn, and absolutely no 'huffing'. 

Hankovitch in S.W. Wisconsin


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## SmokeEater (Apr 9, 2012)

Hankovitch said:


> Hello all. If a cord of wood is 4' x 4' x 8'...doesn't the math work out so that this 128 cubic feet?.......Regarding cost of fuel for a Garn, I bring our horse trailer to one of the local businesses where they cut apart and rebulid wooden pallets. They make a 'box' from a 42x48 pallet, box being very close to 4x4x4, and fill it with wood not suitable for remanufacture of pallets. I have them load three of these 'boxes' into my trailer using their forklift, I shut the door, and give them $15.00 (that's right, $15.00 total... doing the math it's about $11.00 per cord). I haul it home and take each box off the trailer with our Bobcat. We do have to cut the pieces in half with a chop saw and re-stack the halves in another box....so you have to add in the time to cut those sticks in half....couple hours for the 3 boxes. Still pretty cheap.
> It took a while for us to find the solution (found in this Forum, thank you all very much) to not just minimizing but eliminating the HUFFING when burning such dry fuel. We find that if we stack this (VERY dry...kiln-dried) wood as tightly spaced as possible when we load the Garn, and have the load positioned quite close to the back of the burn chamber we get very little smoke except at the first of the burn, and absolutely no 'huffing'.
> 
> Hankovitch in S.W. Wisconsin


 

Hankovitch Sorry about the 80 cu ft.  I didn't specify that number.  True that 4' x 4' x 8' will give you 128 cu. ft., but we have to take the "air spaces" into consideration.  Trials have shown that the average air space in a carefully piled cord of wood will be 48 cu. ft.  I meant to indicate that the 80 cu. ft. is the amount of solid wood in a cord.  If it were seasoned oak a solid cu. ft. of that would be about 47 lbs.  If it were 20% MC, then the bone dry cu. ft. would be 37.6 lb/cu.ft.  x 80 cu. ft. would be 3008 lbs. of bone dry oak in 1 cord and times 8000 btu/lb for energy in wood makes the oak cord's energy value equal to 24MMbtu, which is on the numbers.


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## heaterman (Apr 10, 2012)

Jim that's a very good thought. Given normal inflation rates and observations of what a couple used ones have sold for, a 10 year old Garn would probably still bring at least half its original price.


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## woodsmaster (Apr 11, 2012)

heaterman said:


> Jim that's a very good thought. Given normal inflation rates and observations of what a couple used ones have sold for, a 10 year old Garn would probably still bring at least half its original price.


 
  I'd guess that about any 10 year old gasser would bring half it's price, not gust the garn. Look at the 30 year old tarms on e-bay. I think they want more for them than what they cost new.


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## Hankovitch (Apr 11, 2012)

SmokeEater said:


> Hankovitch Sorry about the 80 cu ft. I didn't specify that number. True that 4' x 4' x 8' will give you 128 cu. ft., but we have to take the "air spaces" into consideration. Trials have shown that the average air space in a carefully piled cord of wood will be 48 cu. ft. I meant to indicate that the 80 cu. ft. is the amount of solid wood in a cord. If it were seasoned oak a solid cu. ft. of that would be about 47 lbs. If it were 20% MC, then the bone dry cu. ft. would be 37.6 lb/cu.ft. x 80 cu. ft. would be 3008 lbs. of bone dry oak in 1 cord and times 8000 btu/lb for energy in wood makes the oak cord's energy value equal to 24MMbtu, which is on the numbers.


 Thanks for the excellent clarification!  Very good informationin your reply.


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