# Electric utility cost in southeastern PA



## Ashful (Jun 6, 2013)

So, while reading another recent thread, I realized I may be paying way too much for electric.  Here are the stat's:

Usage had been averaging 20,230 kWh / year, but more recently has trended down to 18,500 kWh / year, with good behavior.  With another baby on the way at the end of this month, and wife transitioning back to working from home for a while, I anticipate usage will soon be back over 20,000 kWh / year.

We do not have electric heat, and our primary water heater is on the oil boiler, so I guess we do not qualify for any electric heating discount rates.  We do have two large central air conditioning systems for summer use, and will be adding two mini-splits with heat pumps for additions in the next year (maybe I should figure on 22,000 kWh for next year!).

According to PECO, our "price to compare" is 8.61 cents/kWh, at 1600 kWh/mo.  However, my last two bills both netted 16.5 cents/kWh.  I assume we're talking the difference between generation + transmission and generation + transmission + distribution, but I guess I'm not as educated on this as I should be.  Where to start?


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## Grisu (Jun 6, 2013)

Joful said:


> Usage had been averaging 20,230 kWh / year, but more recently has trended down to 18,500 kWh / year, with good behavior. With another baby on the way at the end of this month, and wife transitioning back to working from home for a while, I anticipate usage will soon be back over 20,000 kWh / year.
> 
> We do not have electric heat, and our primary water heater is on the oil boiler, so I guess we do not qualify for any electric heating discount rates. We do have two large central air conditioning systems for summer use, and will be adding two mini-splits with heat pumps for additions in the next year (maybe I should figure on 22,000 kWh for next year!).
> 
> Where to start?


 
I cannot tell you anything about power utilities in PA but how about looking into reducing your energy consumption? You are averaging 50 kWh per day; that's about 2/3 more than the average household. I am sure the ACs will take a lot but that should only apply to about half of the year. What is your consumption during the winter months? Do you have any idea where all that power is going other than the AC units? Since your bill is over $3000 per year it could even pay to have a certified energy consultant coming in. At least an energy monitor would be on my list to buy.


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## Highbeam (Jun 6, 2013)

With no space heating or water heating being done by electric, just what is consuming your power? Yes, you have a large home but the number of occupants is more directly related to consumption in your case. Your family has just as much laundry to do as mine.

As far as "price to compare", that would be your total monthly bill divided by your total kwh consumed. Power companies are terrible about having a low cost of power and then jacking up the BS fees that are charged per kwh and thinking that the consumer is too stupid to combine these. When shopping a competitor (a luxury we don't have) you would need a sample bill. Try to get one for a consumption that is similar to yours as some companies have tiered rates.


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## semipro (Jun 6, 2013)

I just called Appalachian Power and requested they increase my rate.
Yep, I signed up for their Green Power program.
Its going to cost us an additional $0.015/kWh but it'll help me get over the guilt associated with burning coal until I can get our PV system harvesting sunshine.


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## Redbarn (Jun 6, 2013)

There was a good thread about this subject:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/change-power-companies-in-pa.100066


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## woodgeek (Jun 6, 2013)

The price to compare PTC is what it sounds like. IF another supplier is offering you a generation price less than the PTC, you will save money to switch. If it is a penny less than your PTC, you will save 0.01*20,000 = $200.

I am getting PA wind power on a 2 yr contract for a penny less than PECO. I think the cheapest conventional power I found was more like 2 cents cheaper (=$400/yr). Follow the links in the thread above. ^^^^

When I had oil heat and oil DHW, my electric was ~7000 kWh/yr for a family of 4.  How are you using 20,000 if you don't mind me asking?


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## Ashful (Jun 6, 2013)

It sounds to me like it's not going to be worth switching, if only the 8.61 cents of my true 16.5 cents per kWh is actually the negotiable portion. As you pointed out, if I save 12% (one penny), it amounts to $200 per year. Likely not worth the hassle of dealing with another company outside of PECO. I was hoping I might get the bill down to the $0.10 / kWh I hear some of you mention, but with more than half my bill not being part of the "price to compare", I guess that will never happen.

In terms of energy usage, our big consumers are:

- Cooling 6000 sq.ft. of mostly un-insulated stone farm house with original 1770 single-hung windows. We have two 5-ton AC units.
- 3 dehumidifiers, all 75 pt./hr., two of which run almost continuously this time of year.
- electric water heater in guest suite (primary house has hot water off oil boiler)
- exterior lighting = 998 watts, on at dusk, off at 11:30pm
- additional exterior lighting = 2050 watts, on motion sensors or switched on when entertaining or working outdoors
- interior lighting (my wife seems to only understand that switches can be turned on, never off)
-- garage = 6 x 60 watt incandescent (used frequently as shop space, as my shop expansion is not yet complete)
-- family room = 16 x 45 watt incandescent flood on dimmers
-- kitchen = 11 x 45 watt incadescent flood on dimmers
-- living room = 11 x 50 watt halogen flood on Lutron system
-- office = 6 x 50 watt halogen flood + 2 x 60 watt incadescent on Lutron system
-- den = 8 x 50 watt halogen flood on Lutron system
-- old front foyer 2 x 60 watt incadescent
-- new front foyer = 2 x 60 watt incandescent on dimmers
-- rear foyer = 3 x 60 watt incandescent on dimmers
-- hall = 4 x 40 watt incandescent
-- 4 bedrooms, each with 2 - 4 x 60 watt incandescent
-- master changing room: 7 x 50 watt incandescents on dimmers
-- master closets: 4 x 48" flourescents
-- master bath: 3x 50w + 5x 40w incandescents on dimmers
-- rec. room (kids, not frequently used) = 24x 40 - 60 watt incandescents on dimmers
-- gun room = 4x 48" flourescent
-- basement = 6 x 60w incandescent
- tools and equipment - several big antique woodworking machines, used frequently, constant renovations
- network server, workstation, several laptops, big computer monitors
- five TV's, at least three of which seem to be always on
- washer and electric dryer that seem to run damn near 24/7 on weekends. I sometimes wonder if my wife wears and washes three outfits per day.
- electric range and ovens
- two full-size refrigerators, plus two smaller refrigerators, although the small ones are usually unplugged

No doubt, some part of the consumption is a wife who has never turned off a light or television in her life. Case in point... went upstairs to get my iphone, to look up the list of lightbulbs I buy. I found the following left on: upstairs hall lights (160 watts), our bedroom lights (120w), changing room (150 watts), 26" LCD, Wii, and cable box. No one was upstairs, wife had come down 20 minutes ago, and they'd have stayed on until I went to bed at 11:00pm, unless I had gone up there just now. Looking around the corner, I see the kitchen lights are also on (500 watts), and she finished doing the dishes and left that room 30 minutes ago. I haven't really sat down to figure out how much of the usage is truly lights left on, versus AC, clothes washer, dehumidifiers, and outside lighting, but it certainly doesn't help.


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## woodgeek (Jun 6, 2013)

That'll do it.

FYI, though, the hassle is nil.  You still get one bill.  A few minutes on the 'net to find a supplier and book it.


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## Ashful (Jun 6, 2013)

Yeah... I guess I should do it. I'm just bummed that there isn't much to be saved. I heard some of you guys talking $0.10 / kWh (and less!) and got excited. I do wonder how many of these folks are quoting the price quoted to them by their supplier (before taxes and fees), versus actual dollars out of pocket / kWh used.

My 16.5 cents / kWh is based on dollars out of my checking account per kWh used, not some BS pre-service charge "price to compare" from the utility company.

<-- averaged less than 400 kWh / month before marriage, but smaller house / no AC / no cooking


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## woodgeek (Jun 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> Yeah... I guess I should do it. I'm just bummed that there isn't much to be saved. I heard some of you guys talking $0.10 / kWh (and less!) and got excited. I do wonder how many of these folks are quoting the price quoted to them by their supplier (before taxes and fees), versus actual dollars out of pocket / kWh used.
> 
> My 16.5 cents / kWh is based on dollars out of my checking account per kWh used, not some BS pre-service charge "price to compare" from the utility company.
> 
> <-- averaged less than 400 kWh / month before marriage, but smaller house / no AC / no cooking


 
Not judging, I am now blowing 18,000 kWh/yr, but I am getting my space heat and DHW from that too.

In the PNW and Quebec, there is so much hydro, in both places folks are paying 10 cents all in. I double checked, and I am paying 12.7 cents plus a $7/mo distribution in a PECO billing zone. That is almost 4 cents less than you, and my supplier is 100% wind, very low carbon. I **think** there are conventional suppliers in our area that are running a bit cheaper than that.

How often do you find hundreds of dollars in the street? 

The utilities are required to add a price to compare for generation to make it easier to shop around for different suppliers. If you are mad it misleads folks into thinking their kWh are cheaper than they are...I too am annoyed they don't have 'total cost per kW' right next to it, but remember it is there to facilitate shopping. Like a nutrition label.

Here are the two links again:

wind: http://www.choosepawind.com/buy-pa-wind
I have a 24 mo contract for 8.48 cents with these guys: http://citizenpower.com/GEC/savePeco.html
Current quote for our area is now 9.16 for generation, still a half cent cheaper than my PECO PTC 9.61 cents

conventional: http://maketheswitchusa.com/pa/
put in your numbers and the cheapest I got was 8.1 cents for generation, 1.5 cents cheaper than my PECO PTC, or $300/yr savings at your usage level.

Caveats? Some places want you to sign a contract for 6-12-24 mo, and will fine you to break it early. I doubt you have a contract with PECO, you would remember signing it. So, I did a 2 yr contact for the 'hassle factor' of not having to re-shop for two years. And wind prices have gone up a half cent since I locked in.

I do not know how you have a lower listed PTC on your PECO bill than I have on mine. That's BS. My PECO PTC went up recently, make sure you check the most recent bill. Also, my distribution charge is under 5 cents/kWh, it sounds like yours is more like 7? Perhaps PECO charges urban versus suburban customers different distribution per kWh?

At any rate, it looks to me like you will bag $200-300/yr for ~30 minutes of internet shopping.

Whatever you find, your savings will be the difference in PTCs * usage. My distribution and monthly fees did not change when I switched....I suspect that is closely regulated.


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## woodgeek (Jun 7, 2013)

My wife likes some lumens too. I suppose you are not CFL-ing it because the wife likes the edison bulb warmth/color rendition and dimming function. I was mostly CFL, but kept incandescents/floods in a couple places I wanted those functions. After watching the development of LED bulbs for **years**, I finally pulled the trigger in the last 6 mos, and got both of these (Phillips) bulbs:

dimmable 65W halogen flood recessed light LED replacement: 13W
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008NNZSI0/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

dimmable 60W edison bulb replacement LED: 10W
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0071E17VY/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

for about $25 a pop. Both are IMO **perfect** replacements for the incandescents re brightness, color and dimmability (with LED rated dimmers, YMMV with old dimmers). If you want to reduce power usage, pick up these guys (or similar products from these products lines, I like Phillips), and try them out. If you like 'em, you can probably switch out for <$1000 total, and make 40% annual ROI.


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## Redbarn (Jun 7, 2013)

We switched from Met-Ed at 0.089 to Reliant Energy (Houston, TX) at 0.069. Took about 30 minutes on-line and we fixed the rate for 1 year.

Everything else is the same as before. Same billing,etc..
We just pay less for the same product/service.
Not many things in life go down in price !


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## Ashful (Jun 7, 2013)

I'll have to check out your links and bulbs over this weekend, woodgeek. I've not done all the detailed math on this, but I anticipate the ROI will be very long for me. We have a very high count of low-wattage bulbs, to achieve our desired lighting in this old house. As an example, between our kitchen and family room, one open space, we have 29 bulbs at 40 - 45 watts each. Most are run lower than their rating, thanks to dimmers on every switch, so perhaps they're consuming 30 - 35 watts each.

Just back of the envelope math, but a $25 LED consuming 1/6th the power is going to have to burn roughly 5000 hours to recoup the cost difference to an incandescent running at 35 watts, at $0.165 / kWh. If I manage to find cheaper power, say your 12.7 cents/kWh, then the time goes up to more than 6000 hours of burn time. Each of these lights is on only a few hours each evening (more on the weekends), so perhaps 18 hours per week. We're talking about a *5 year* ROI.

The math is much more favorable to one putting a lot of hours on a few higher-wattage light bulbs, versus a few hours per day on a house with more than 225 lower-wattage light bulbs.


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## TradEddie (Jun 7, 2013)

Do any of you guys know if PECO's "smartsaver a/c" scheme applies if I switched supplier? I assume not, but its not clear. Even though they've reduced the credit to $20/mo, it's still a no-brainer, I noticed nothing last year. Losing that wouldn't make up the 0.5c/kwh.

TE


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## Grisu (Jun 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> I'll have to check out your links and bulbs over this weekend, woodgeek. I've not done all the detailed math on this, but I anticipate the ROI will be very long for me. We have a very high count of low-wattage bulbs, to achieve our desired lighting in this old house. As an example, between our kitchen and family room, one open space, we have 29 bulbs at 40 - 45 watts each. Most are run lower than their rating, thanks to dimmers on every switch, so perhaps they're consuming 30 - 35 watts each.
> 
> Just back of the envelope math, but a $25 LED consuming 1/6th the power is going to have to burn roughly 5000 hours to recoup the cost difference to an incandescent running at 35 watts, at $0.165 / kWh. If I manage to find cheaper power, say your 12.7 cents/kWh, then the time goes up to more than 6000 hours of burn time. Each of these lights is on only a few hours each evening (more on the weekends), so perhaps 18 hours per week. We're talking about a *5 year* ROI.
> 
> The math is much more favorable to one putting a lot of hours on a few higher-wattage light bulbs, versus a few hours per day on a house with more than 225 lower-wattage light bulbs.


 
Homedepot has 40W and 60W LED bulbs on sale right now for $10-$13. Compared to your estimate it should reduce the ROI to 2.5 years. I would also look into motion sensors in areas that are only used on occasions (e. g. bathrooms, upstairs corridor etc.) if your family cannot be bothered to turn off the lights. In rooms where I wanted instant light (e. g. bathrooms) I mixed incadescents with CFLs, so far without any negative side effects (like bulbs burned out prematurely). 

Nevertheless, not much will change if you do not get your family on board. One suggestion: Stop paying by automatic withdrawal. Set a monthly budget for $300 for electricity. Write the check when your wife/family is sitting with you at the table. Take the difference between the actual bill and the $300 and put it in a "something fun jar". Use that money for a movie-trip with the whole family, dinner at fancy restaurant, or save for the next vacation. Of course, if the bill exceeds the $300 take the difference back out of the jar. Let's see how quickly you can get them to turn off lights or use the AC less.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 7, 2013)

Grisu said:


> Homedepot has 40W and 60W LED bulbs on sale right now for $10-$13. Compared to your estimate it should reduce the ROI to 2.5 years.


Costco has 40W LED 3 in a pack for $20 so thats $6.66c Each. Bought a pack for the living room lamps,nice soft light,not the white harsh light of CFLs. 7 watt consumption each.


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## Ashful (Jun 7, 2013)

Grisu said:


> Nevertheless, not much will change if you do not get your family on board. One suggestion: Stop paying by automatic withdrawal. Set a monthly budget for $300 for electricity. Write the check when your wife/family is sitting with you at the table. Take the difference between the actual bill and the $300 and put it in a "something fun jar". Use that money for a movie-trip with the whole family, dinner at fancy restaurant, or save for the next vacation. Of course, if the bill exceeds the $300 take the difference back out of the jar. Let's see how quickly you can get them to turn off lights or use the AC less.


 

You are preaching to the choir, Grisu!  Unfortunately, my wife pays the electric bill, and while she's made comments in surprise of it being so high in this new house, she doesn't seem capable of changing her behavior to suit.  And since I'm the one who usually wants to go out, her being much happier sitting at home, I have no hand to play.  I'm also the one who enjoys having the AC, more than anyone else in the house.

I'm resigned our usage is what it is.  It's really not a problem or a hardship.  I was just interested in not paying more than necessary, per kWh, for what we are using.


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## woodgeek (Jun 7, 2013)

TradEddie said:


> Do any of you guys know if PECO's "smartsaver a/c" scheme applies if I switched supplier? I assume not, but its not clear. Even though they've reduced the credit to $20/mo, it's still a no-brainer, I noticed nothing last year. Losing that wouldn't make up the 0.5c/kwh.
> 
> TE


 
AC Saver is permanently discontinued. It was a govt funded pilot program to collect effectiveness data. Now it is done and we have hardware screwed to the walls of our houses.

Future things like that will prob be managed through wifi enabled thermostats.

EDIT Correction: Eddie is right, they changed their minds, and it is NOT discontinued, just dropped to $20/mo. Don't know if I still get it, I think I will.


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## woodgeek (Jun 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> I'll have to check out your links and bulbs over this weekend, woodgeek. I've not done all the detailed math on this, but I anticipate the ROI will be very long for me. We have a very high count of low-wattage bulbs, to achieve our desired lighting in this old house. As an example, between our kitchen and family room, one open space, we have 29 bulbs at 40 - 45 watts each. Most are run lower than their rating, thanks to dimmers on every switch, so perhaps they're consuming 30 - 35 watts each.
> 
> Just back of the envelope math, but a $25 LED consuming 1/6th the power is going to have to burn roughly 5000 hours to recoup the cost difference to an incandescent running at 35 watts, at $0.165 / kWh. If I manage to find cheaper power, say your 12.7 cents/kWh, then the time goes up to more than 6000 hours of burn time. Each of these lights is on only a few hours each evening (more on the weekends), so perhaps 18 hours per week. We're talking about a *5 year* ROI.
> 
> The math is much more favorable to one putting a lot of hours on a few higher-wattage light bulbs, versus a few hours per day on a house with more than 225 lower-wattage light bulbs.


 
Ok. My problem was I had too few cans, so I needed a lot of lumens in each one. For you, wanting a 40W equivalent, there are a lot of cheaper options. For a 40W edison replacement, look at the cree bulbs available in Home Despot for $10:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-6-W...-04527OMF-12DE26-1U110/204084370#.UbI5IuvTOHk
As you point out, ROI depends on hours used. I leave the calcs to you, but a <$10 bulb prob helps.

Edit: sorry Grisu....these are the same bulbs you mention. Reviews are quite positive.


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## Highbeam (Jun 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> I heard some of you guys talking $0.10 / kWh (and less!) and got excited. I do wonder how many of these folks are quoting the price quoted to them by their supplier (before taxes and fees), versus actual dollars out of pocket / kWh used.


 
Of course, cost per kwh is all in. Anything else is meaningless, like banana cords.

My bill for 1000 kwh is actually less than 100 dollars. I am happy with our cheap power but to get it you have to live here with rain dripping off of your ears and a mossy back for 9 months per year.


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## woodgeek (Jun 8, 2013)

Ok. PECOvolution continues. On the new bill they dropped my PTC by a penny, and increased my distribution by 2 cents. I am now at 15.4 cents all in, or 14.5 cents marginal (w/o monthly service charge). Amounts to a 14% hike on an annual basis. Still less (in nominal $) than I was paying 20 years ago.

I am no longer getting 100% wind for significantly less than Excelon/PECO power, its now a wash.

I guess my home eff projects will now pay off 14% faster.


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## Highbeam (Jun 8, 2013)

That's why you can't use the PTC. It's a bogus number intended to trick you. You can bet they were pretty proud of themselves for giving you that one cent discount!


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## woodgeek (Jun 8, 2013)

I disagree.  Its a regulated industry with pretty lousy profits.  The PTC they get to charge is debated and discussed with a public cmte.  I am sure they had to lobby a cmte and present evidence that the old rate did not meet their expenses, and needed to be increased.

I am no fan of corporations, but electric utilities are not full of vampire capitalists.


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## maple1 (Jun 10, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> I disagree. Its a regulated industry with pretty lousy profits. The PTC they get to charge is debated and discussed with a public cmte. I am sure they had to lobby a cmte and present evidence that the old rate did not meet their expenses, and needed to be increased.
> 
> I am no fan of corporations, but electric utilities are not full of vampire capitalists.


 
They are here.

NSP is regulated, but part of that regulation is a guaranteed rate of return for shareholders - very close to 10%. That doesn't help power rates much....


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## Ashful (Jun 10, 2013)

maple1 said:


> NSP is regulated, but part of that regulation is a guaranteed rate of return for shareholders - very close to 10%. That doesn't help power rates much....


 

Unsuccessful people spend their time whining about the injustices of the system within which we live. Successful people find a way to make it work for them. If you think the utility is raking folks over the coals for the sake of shareholder profit, then become a shareholder.


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## maple1 (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm content with my level of successfullness.

Buying shares might be an option for myself, but is no option for those on fixed incomes who are scraping by just paying their bills. And there are a large number of pensioners in that basket here.


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## jharkin (Jun 11, 2013)

To give you comparison numbers - my "cost of electricity is $.07/kWh.  THe price I actually pay with distribution charges and fees is $0.154/kWh. So in the same ballpark.

Consumption thoughts...

_Lighting..._

Not to pile on but hat lighting load you have is killer. I know finding the right LEDs for your low wattage use is tough but have you looked to see if you can get discounts from your utilitiy? I got the Philips L-prize bulbs for $10/ea from NStar and they are fantastic! Bright as a 100w equiv CFL and indistinguishable from an incandescent. I measured the draw at under 7watts.  For can lights Ive used the HD ecosmart brand copies of the Cree CR6 @ $25 each and they are great also.
Also ask yourself, do you really need to have 1 kW of outdoor lighting on every evening? Looks like you are burning a couple hundred kWh a month there alone...
For your large workshops, how about 8ft flourescent tubes?  I had my electrician install some in my garage the year we moved in. HUGE improvent in lighting.
 
_Climate..._

For the AC, is it zoned? Can you turn off / close off areas of the house that are unoccupied?
On the dehumidifiers I feel your pain.  I have 1/4 the square footage that you do and my basement dehumidifier is using up to 300KWh a month in the damp season   I'm sure you have found as I have that the cost to fix the moisture problem in a stone basement would be worth a many lifetimes of the electric bill. So we live with it as a cost of old house living.
_Other..._

Wash... feel your pain there as well. It never ends with babies in the house. Best you can do is try to run only full loads, short/cold cycle, use the auto detect setting on your dryer.
With all those TVs, you might consider smart power strips to turn off the cable boxes when they are off and save some standby loss (cant if you DVR a lot obviously).
The computers and network stack and such are lifestyle choices. You can secretly set the windows power settings to maximum savings on all the kids machines so at least they go into sleep mode if left on. Sounds like you have more computers than residents (same here) - they cant all be used at once. Think about what you need the server for?  Maybe put the hubs and switches on timers if they don't need to be on overnight to provide internet service for anything (
Do you need both fridges and freezers?  We manage to get by feeding a family of 4 with one 30"  french door fridge and a 5cf basement storage freezer.  Just have to shop more than once a month  he he.
 
Good luck!


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## Ashful (Jun 11, 2013)

All good suggestions, aside perhaps from the lighting, for which I think there is no good ROI for my situation. If I could just get the wife to stop leaving on dozens of lights in rooms she's not using, I'd be in much better shape. True, we don't need 1kW of exterior lighting to survive, but we live in a neighborhood where all the houses are kept lit in the evening / don't want to be the one dark "anti-social" house. In December, I actually put up an _additional_ 2 kW of small white incandescent bulb strings, but I keep them on only dusk until 11:30pm. Tried the LED's there as well, but they look like chit, IMO.

On the rest of the items, much of it is a convenience / livestyle choice. Yes, there's a little waste with computers, cable boxes, refrigerators, etc., but I don't mind it for the convenience. Refrigerator #2 is mostly stocked with beer and white wine, an extra jug each of milk, orange juice, apple juice, and some frozen items. There are three other refrigerators (five total), as the previous owners hosted a few weddings here, but we have never had any need to plug them in.

The two dehumidifiers running in the basement are not a function of an old house, as most new houses in this area actually seem to have equal or more trouble with musty basements.  The air here, in SE PE in general -- but in particular right in my neighborhood surrounded by creeks, is crazy humid in summer.  Hot humid air infiltrating a cool basement = mold.  We do run a third dehumidifier on the third floor, where much moisture seems to bake out of the mud-stacked stone walls into the hot attic, and that one could be blamed on an old house.

My primary goal was just ensuring I'm not paying more than absolutely necessary, for the amount I'm using, not so much about ways to reduce consumption. After all, someone needs to keep the good folks at the utility companies employed, and ensure maple1's stocks don't drop in value.


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## jharkin (Jun 11, 2013)

You know Joful, funny thing is my wife has asked me a few times if we could get a second fridge for the basement... To be honest we could certainly make use of one if we had it ... we run out of hte kids milk by grocery day most weeks (or at least replace the 30in with a 36in big one in the kitchen... IF we had the space) but I remind her that with the only access down there being a 26in wide door that makes an immediate right turn down a very steep stairs it just cant happen. he he..


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## Ashful (Jun 11, 2013)

Yeah, my last house was like that.  I had to buy a special shallow gun safe just to get it thru the door, and even then had to remove a bunch of hardware to get it thru.  Basement at the new place is walk-out (think it might have been a kitchen at one time), and has a 40" wide door.  I could almost drive the Cub Cadet thru that door.


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## jharkin (Jun 11, 2013)

I'm jealous of the walk out.  To get our washer and dryer downstairs I had to take off the door, and the hinges AND pry the jamb stops off. Then I had to partially dissasemble the dryer taking the front trim off.

It was then I understood why the sellers left us their old set.

Our possible future renovation plan if we don't move (5+ years out) is to take the back ell down to the framing and rebuild it with a full height dormered second story roof to add a master suite/bath above the kitchen.  My dream if money was no object was to additionally stretch it to attach the garage and dig out the crawlspace underneath to double the basement area and have a walk out stairs from the basement up intro the garage. And at that point we might as well tear down and rebuild the garage as well.

Wait a sec what was this thread about...


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## Highbeam (Jun 11, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> I disagree. Its a regulated industry with pretty lousy profits. The PTC they get to charge is debated and discussed with a public cmte. I am sure they had to lobby a cmte and present evidence that the old rate did not meet their expenses, and needed to be increased.
> 
> I am no fan of corporations, but electric utilities are not full of vampire capitalists.


 
Oh I could care less how they got to their numbers or whether they are vampires or kittens. What matters, all that matters, is the cost per kwh that I consume. That cost includes many line items that can vary based on the stars, tides, or presidential party. The only way to get the cost per kwh is to divide the bill by the kwh consumed and arrive at a figure. That figure is the PRICE paid for electricity and is the only thing that can be compared.

I would suggest that doing anything else would require you to keep track of how many vampires, kittens, or presidential elections occured in the production of smoke and mirrors required when all of the various line items were added to your bill.


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## woodgeek (Jun 11, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Oh I could care less how they got to their numbers or whether they are vampires or kittens. What matters, all that matters, is the cost per kwh that I consume. That cost includes many line items that can vary based on the stars, tides, or presidential party. The only way to get the cost per kwh is to divide the bill by the kwh consumed and arrive at a figure. That figure is the PRICE paid for electricity and is the only thing that can be compared.
> 
> I would suggest that doing anything else would require you to keep track of how many vampires, kittens, or presidential elections occured in the production of smoke and mirrors required when all of the various line items were added to your bill.


 
We agree.  The average cost is the total bill/ total kWh.  The marginal cost (to compute savings from eff measures) is the total bill - fixed charges / total kWh.  And the PTC is a number with no real meaning unless you are shopping for other suppliers in the marketplace.  And all the numbers can change mo to mo, subject to some system of constraints.  Yuck.

I personally never made the mistake of thinking the PT was my cost, but I suppose a lot of folks (who are innumerate) might mistakenly think it was their cost.  Sucks to be innumerate, I guess.  If I made the laws, I suppose the average cost would be right under it, but I don't, so I will just shake my fist.


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## Highbeam (Jun 11, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> We agree


 
We have cost per kwh for the first 600, then a higher cost for additional kwh (I think that is a tiered rate), then four or five debits or credits billed per kwh and then one or two actual fixed fees.

As such, reducing my consumption by 10 percent will not reduce my bill by 10%. It is not simple is it? Good or bad, I only have this one supplier so detailed comparisons aren't necessary.


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## Ashful (Jun 11, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> We have cost per kwh for the first 600, then a higher cost for additional kwh (I think that is a tiered rate), then four or five debits or credits billed per kwh and then one or two actual fixed fees.




Yikes!  As screwed up as our tax system.  Better get Steve Forbes on this.


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## TradEddie (Jun 11, 2013)

Joful said:


> Hot humid air infiltrating a cool basement = mold


 
Air sealing, both in basement and the whole house, hugely reduced my basement moisture. Now I leave my humidifier at setting 2/10 and it runs just a few minutes a day. My biggest improvement was putting a regular exterior door in the archway below the bilco door. Even with a high water table, the moisture you get is mostly exterior air coming into the cool basement, reduce the air flow, reduce the moisture.

As for exterior, I have used CFLs for exterior lights ever since we moved in, they look fine, and generally don't attract nearly as much bugs (although one brand was spectacularly worse). Mine run on those light sensor inserts with no problems.

TE


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## Ashful (Jun 11, 2013)

Definitely agreed on reducing air flow. Basement is actually sealed pretty well, excepting one 1894 addition, which is getting fixed in 4 - 5 weeks. There are four windows and one door, all of which are the latest and greatest technology, ca.1773. They may not be up to modern standards, but they're in good repair.

I do disagree on the CFL's, though.  I know they don't bother some folks, but I ain't some folks.


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## TradEddie (Jun 12, 2013)

Joful said:


> I do disagree on the CFL's, though. I know they don't bother some folks, but I ain't some folks


 
I'm curious to understand what you don't like about them for exterior use. None of the reasons I dislike them inside apply for exterior use; slow to light, cold spectrum, buzzing, and shortened life if used upside down. Those reasons and the bucket of CFLs I have that died well before their time but for which I have no receipts.

TE


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## Ashful (Jun 12, 2013)

TradEddie said:


> I'm curious to understand what you don't like about them for exterior use. None of the reasons I dislike them inside apply for exterior use; slow to light, cold spectrum, buzzing, and shortened life if used upside down.


 

The cold spectrum alone is enough to make me avoid them, although the slow lighting is a very annoying bonus.  The majority of my exterior lighting (everything but the lamp posts , two garage lanterns, and front porch) is kept off, and only turned on when I need to heat out / put the dogs out.  By the time a CFL warmed up, I'd be heading back inside, in 99% of cases.

With regard to the color temperature, think old house.  Cold CFL's just don't look right.

Year-round lighting:




Christmas lighting:



Gratuitous snow scene:


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## woodgeek (Jun 13, 2013)

If any of the outdoor lights are 60W edisons, I suspect the $12 Cree LED bulb (10W) would be a perfect substitute. At 4 hr/day, that's 0.2 kWh/day, 70 kWh/yr, $11/yr in savings. They are instant on, 2700K color (warm), and should last 15 years at that rate, netting you $155 over that period, per bulb. They also appear to attract fewer insects than incandescents or CFLs.

We agree the early LED bulbs were all junk, and many were bluish. The technology has finally matured, and at an attractive enough price point. You might want to experiment.

Beautiful house by the way.


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## Ashful (Jun 13, 2013)

There are several 40W and 60W clear Edison style bulbs, but they're all decorative in function, clear glass large filament bulbs in clear glass and brass lanterns. No hope of making an LED look right in one of those.

However, I may be able to replace some of the reflector bulbs with LED's:

(3) R16 45W flood
(2) R38 100W spot
(3) R38 45W flood
(4) R30 long neck 50W flood (on barn)

I actually did try replacing one of the R38 45W floods with an LED about 16 months ago. It was one that was very highly reviewed as being a warm white, and it wasn't nearly as awful as some others I have seen, but it still looked cold next to the warm glow of the other incandescent floods. I would have to go thru old email when I get home, to find exactly what brand/model it was, but it made for some very expensive land fill, in the end.

It is interesting that the LED's actually do not look bad when reflected off some objects, but they look entirely unnatural when reflected off others.  I believe that's because they're relying on mixing three very narrow wavelengths to mimic the color balance of a broad spectrum light (incandescent, halogen, etc.).  They can provide the same color temperature as an incandescent, but because there are only three wavelengths to reflect, objects that do not reflect those three narrow wavelengths in predictable fashion end up looking very odd.  In my case, with the LED bulb, it made the old stone walls look like fake plastic stone.


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## woodgeek (Jun 13, 2013)

If you saw a side by side color difference, then the bulb prob wasn't really 2700K, or your incandescents are underpowered/cool.

I am sure you can tell the difference between a CRI = 80 bulb warm color and the temp matched incandescent if you really try.  The L-prize lamps were well liked because they were over engineered to have a CRI = 90, really can't tell the difference there by eye.  I am skeptical that natural surface reflectances have narrow bands in them.

The flood market is still evolving, and the prices for Phillips/Cree are down to the $25 mark, pulling your ROI down to 10% per hour/day runtime. 

You might be more happy to experiment if you have a good return policy in place, at a convenient brick and mortar store.


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## TradEddie (Jun 14, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> I am skeptical that natural surface reflectances have narrow bands in them.


 
I agree with Joful's observation, whether his explanation is correct or not. It's probably more complicated than that since I've observed the same with CFLs. I have a room in my house where placing even one LED/CFL makes the whole room look sickly, yet others where I couldn't see any difference even with the very early CFLs. I have two rooms with almost identical yellow paint, yet one looks much worse under LED/CFL lights.

I suspect that paint manufacturers will get ahead of this trend, and will be bringing out warmer paints, that will look better under LED/CFLs, or perhaps homeowners will be choosing different paints. My observation has been that generally speaking, stronger colors look better, but its not as simple as that, some pigments must reflect differently.

TE


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## Ashful (Jun 14, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> I am skeptical that natural surface reflectances have narrow bands in them.


 

Don't forget that your rods and cones aren't perfectly flat broadband receivers, either. This is particularly an issue for anyone who works in a capacity where their eyes may be damaged (welding, optoelectronics, surgical lasers, etc.).

A coworker was telling me about a problem he had with his LED headlamp (used for cycling in the dark early morning hours), and his yellow or amber filtered cold-weather goggles. He never had a problem wearing these goggles in cold weather when using the incandescent headlamp, but once he switched to the LED he found many objects just show up black thru those goggles, which are clearly filtering one of the LED's wavelengths.

He has settled for augmenting the LED headlamp with a handlebar mounted incandescent, a technique I experimented with in my own interior lighting. In fact, two of my second-floor hall light each contain one 40W CFL and one 40W incandescent, inside the same frosted globe. It doesn't look as good as two incandescents, but it looks better than two CFL's.


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## woodgeek (Jun 14, 2013)

So, there is color temperature, and CRI (color rendering index).  The Color temperature is the temperature of an incandescent object that the light best matches. The deviations from that match are described by CRI. IOW, an incandescent bulb at 2700 K has a color temp of 2700, and a CRI = 1.00.  The color temp is the big thing, but a 'warm' bulb with a low CRI <0.8 can distort color appearances, by <0.7 most folks notice.  The market seems to think that CT=2500-2700K and a CRI=0.80+ will be 'good enough' for most people to happily swap for LEDs, esp since incands are getting phased out. 

I personally would like a slightly higher CRI.

So, years ago a lot of people bought the wrong temperature CFLs, and trashed the concept without giving it a fair shake.  I blame the manufacturers for this...I think the blue ones were easier to engineer/cheaper/more profitable, but they ended up trashing the 'brand'.  Now that everyone is hip to color temps, there are still a lot of cheapo CFLs that have terrible CRI, that continue to frustrate buyers and slow adoption.

The same thing seems to be repeating for LED bulbs, with the bonus that a lot of bulbs are significantly underpowered/dark, but claim to substitute a bright bulb.  Scammers pure and simple.

So, TE, are you saying that your problem was with CFL/LEDs that were 2500-2700K and CRI>=0.80?  OR were you trying crppy bulbs with low CRI?

Just for perspective, natural daylight has a color similar to those really blue CFLs, and halogen bulbs are noticeably bluer than regular incandescent, but noone ever complains about how 'cold' THEY are.  I put in some solar tubes, but the light they bring in is 'cool' colored.


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## woodgeek (Jun 14, 2013)

Joful said:


> A coworker was telling me about a problem he had with his LED headlamp (used for cycling in the dark early morning hours), and his yellow or amber filtered cold-weather goggles. He never had a problem wearing these goggles in cold weather when using the incandescent headlamp, but once he switched to the


 
For portable applications, manufacturers seem to go for maximum lumens per watt, which leads to a very high color temp, blue light and lousy CRI. Really a different market from indoor lighting.

I think we are disagreeing over the term 'narrow'.  I do a lot of optical work, and in my lingo (lasers), none of these sources are really narrow to me.  But your point is well taken!


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## Ashful (Jun 14, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> I think we are disagreeing over the term 'narrow'. I do a lot of optical work, and in my lingo (lasers), none of these sources are really narrow to me.


 

Me too!  I did a ton of work at 1310 nm, and some in early 1550 nm cooled lasers.  Now I work on systems with decades of bandwidth, though.

<-- Former laser packaging engineer


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## Laszlo (Jun 22, 2013)

If you want to reduce your bill, it's definitely worth taking a few minutes to find a cheaper electric supplier. Once you decide on one, it takes just minutes to input your info. And there's no hassle of dealing with a second company--PECO still handles billing and all wire maintenance, so nothing changes from your standpoint except the amount you pay each month. I followed woodgeek in signing up for wind power (seems we 3 are in the same boat--all in SE PA and using ~20k kWh a year). Reduced my bill, and locked in my rate for 3 years. A nice thing to have that guaranteed price stability, especially when PECO's "Price to Compare" has more than doubled in the past 2.5 years.

I also wouldn't discount reducing consumption. We've lowered our annual usage from 33.5k kWh/yr in 2009 through a combination of attic air sealing/increased insulation, replacing our old wood-burning stove with something modern, and converting most of our lighting to LEDs. The savings are real (spent $834 less on electric in 2012 compared to '09), and on top of that we had greater comfort. The attic improvements alone made the temperatures upstairs about 5 closer to what the thermostat is set to downstairs.

With the LEDs too, it feels like we got an upgrade. We _love_ the light from Philips L-Prize LEDs for our most-occupied rooms, plus the swap allowed us a much-appreciated brightness boost for some fixtures which are limited to 60W bulbs. And the new $12.50 Cree LEDs provide much better light than CFLs ever did. Finally, even if the light from LEDs doesn't meet your standards, you can still reduce your wattage ~30% by using halogens instead of incandescents. If you wish to calculate your ROI for different bulb types, I've got a spreadsheet for comparing long-term costs (already set to 16.5¢/kWh).


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## TradEddie (Jun 22, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> So, TE, are you saying that your problem was with CFL/LEDs that were 2500-2700K and CRI>=0.80? OR were you trying crppy bulbs with low CRI?


 
With hindsight, I wish I'd kept better (i.e. any) track of what I tried, what worked and what didn't. I never fell for the "60W equivalent" BS, I looked on a nearby shelf for the lumens of the halogen or incandescent I wanted to replace with a CFL and matched that. I don't remember seeing color temperature on the earliest CFLs I tried, and even once temperatures were listed, for a long time they weren't warm enough. I'd buy one bulb and try it, if it lit fast and looked good, I bought more. Many places in my house look fine with CFLs but my kitchen/dining area has pale hardwood floor, pale yellow walls and pale blue cabinets (looks much better than it sounds). I couldn't find any quick lighting CFL with a suitable look for that room. Eating food from a beautiful amish table under a sickly light is not my idea of going green, and neither is coming into a dark room then waiting 30 seconds for the CFLs to light enough to see my way safely across. My holy grail is to find a nice LED that will go in six PAR20 50W halogen floodlights in that room.

Any CFL that I didn't like went into the basement, or shop lights, so they all got used. My biggest problem with CFLs is that I've never got the claimed life, some have lasted less than a year, and I didn't keep receipts or packages. I'm not prepared to layout the cost of LEDs for the same poor life. I love my CFLs in shop lights (no burnt hair! Much more shock resistant), and also in fittings with limited incandescent wattage due to fire concerns. I've also mixed ultra compact CFLs with incandescent in twin bulb fittings

TE


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## woodgeek (Jun 23, 2013)

Very similar boat here.  I tried a lot of CFLs over the years, and took a lot back to the mom and pop hardware that I bought em at (in sellable condition).  I always found I needed about 30-35% the wattage to get the same subjective brightness, (or rather, that worked for the Mrs).  I had a few locations (can lights in kitchen) that I stuck with incandescents until 2013. 

I replaced a mix of 50W and 75W halogen floods with these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008NNZSI0/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and am very happy with the color.  Brightness was actually 'too high' but we got used to that quickly.  They are dimmable, but haven't tried that yet. 

One suggestion....there are spot lights (PAR series) and flood lights (BR series).  The halogens come in spot and flood too.  IN my case the BR (wide angle flood) was much more appropriate.  The difference between spot and flood is greater with the LED bulbs IMO.


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## Ashful (Jun 23, 2013)

Laszlo said:


> seems we 3 are in the same boat--all in SE PA and using ~20k kWh a year... We've lowered our annual usage from 33.5k kWh/yr in 2009 through a combination of attic air sealing/increased insulation, replacing our old wood-burning stove with something modern, and converting most of our lighting to LEDs.


 

Yikes!  I thought I was burning some electrons!  You must have some form of electric heating?


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## Hearth Mistress (Jun 23, 2013)

Joful said:


> You are preaching to the choir, Grisu!  Unfortunately, my wife pays the electric bill, and while she's made comments in surprise of it being so high in this new house, she doesn't seem capable of changing her behavior to suit.  And since I'm the one who usually wants to go out, her being much happier sitting at home, I have no hand to play.  I'm also the one who enjoys having the AC, more than anyone else in the house.
> 
> I'm resigned our usage is what it is.  It's really not a problem or a hardship.  I was just interested in not paying more than necessary, per kWh, for what we are using.



You can always install light switches that have motion sensors on them.  My boss put them in his house after he was sick of his wife and kids always leaving the lights on all the time.  http://www.amazon.com/GE-57884-Motion-Sensing-Switch/dp/B0006JMNJ6

I have a few of those curly cue bulbs and hate them.  I have tried several different brands, they hum when they are on and make me crazy.  I have very sensitive hearing (and perfect pitch) so back to the old bulbs on the lamps near the sofa and bed


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## Laszlo (Jun 24, 2013)

Joful said:


> Yikes! I thought I was burning some electrons! You must have some form of electric heating?


 
Yes, electric hot water and an ASHP. Not always the best climate for a heat pump, especially in January (which used to be a 5K month for us). But then again, we've never had to refill an oil tank like most of our neighbors.


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## TradEddie (Aug 4, 2013)

> I suspect the $12 Cree LED bulb (10W) would be a perfect substitute. At 4 hr/day, that's 0.2 kWh/day, 70 kWh/yr, $11/yr in savings. They are instant on, 2700K color (warm), and should last 15 years at that rate, netting you $155 over that period, per bulb. They also appear to attract fewer insects than incandescents or CFLs.


 
I just bought my first Cree LEDs, and I tried them first in my most difficult room, a downstairs powder room with no natural light, obvious need for instant-on, and with colors that many incandescent bulbs make sickly. I was immediately impressed. Even nicer is the immediate benefit of not walking into a sauna when the kids leave the lights on and close the door. Those Cree bulbs will be my first choice from now on, I can't fault the color, and if they last a year, they've paid for themselves.

TE


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## Ashful (Aug 5, 2013)

I'm thinking of trying some for exterior floods, as that's my biggest lighting load, and one of the few where the physical appearance of the LED bulb isn't a major detractor. Can't really use those things in shallow can lights, where the bulb lens is flush with the surround, unless they made a "shallow" PAR38 version to hide the bulb body up inside the can better.


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## jharkin (Aug 5, 2013)

For can lights with fixed bulbs I tossed the existing trim and used these. They are HD brand but made by Cree (the actual bulb has a Cree label), only difference is a shorter warranty and half the price. In a new install they are actually as cheap or cheaper than incandescent since the trim is integrated.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart...D-Downlight-E-ECO-575L/202240932#.Uf-jYG0zJ8E

For the cans on my sloped ceiling with eyeball trim I used these. Light is not quite as good as the Cree but still miles better than CFL. (price is for 2). These are made by Lighting Science group. If I were to do it again I might look at the new Philips BR30 also.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart...ck-ECS-BR30-W27-FL-120/204108894#.Uf-j7m0zJ8E


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## Ashful (Aug 5, 2013)

Thanks for posting that, Jeremy.  I'm going to have to check those out, next time I'm at the Depot.


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## Ashful (Aug 5, 2013)

Oh... one question.  How low can these things dim?  Our kitchen separates one wing of the house from the other, so we're frequently passing thru it all evening long.  We typically like to keep four of the cans in the kitchen dimmed VERY low, like barely glowing, just to keep enough light on the floor that we don't run into anything.  I believe most of these LED's will flicker on a very low dim setting.

Our kitchen is open to our great room, and although we don't spend a lot of time out there (we're mostly at the other end of the house in the evenings), there's thirty 45 watt cans in that space.  That could add up to some serious energy savings, over time.  Unfortunately, almost half of them are set into a cathedral ceiling, so I require "sloped recessed" trims.


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## woodgeek (Aug 5, 2013)

If they did blink, just replace the dimmer with a 'LED' rated one and it will be fine.  I can get mine down as low as you describe, and they are both steady and light at that setting.


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## jharkin (Aug 5, 2013)

Joful said:


> Oh... one question. How low can these things dim? Our kitchen separates one wing of the house from the other, so we're frequently passing thru it all evening long. We typically like to keep four of the cans in the kitchen dimmed VERY low, like barely glowing, just to keep enough light on the floor that we don't run into anything. I believe most of these LED's will flicker on a very low dim setting.
> 
> Our kitchen is open to our great room, and although we don't spend a lot of time out there (we're mostly at the other end of the house in the evenings), there's thirty 45 watt cans in that space. That could add up to some serious energy savings, over time. Unfortunately, almost half of them are set into a cathedral ceiling, so I require "sloped recessed" trims.


 
If you like, I can take some photos tonight of the bulbs at full bright, half and full dim so you can get a sense of the color. I have both styles of bulb on dimmers.

Let me know.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 5, 2013)

Just got a new recessed LED bulb to try in my kitchen. It was $15. TO my surprise its 18W and the old CFL was 15w . But it is at least twice as bright. Too bright for my taste.


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## Ashful (Aug 5, 2013)

Thanks, Jeremy!  Sure, if it's not too much trouble.  However, after looking and not finding any with sloped surrounds, it looks like I'm back in the territory of a non-surround PAR38 form factor.


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## semipro (Aug 5, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Just got a new recessed LED bulb to try in my kitchen. It was $15. TO my surprise its 18W and the old CFL was 15w . But it is at least twice as bright. Too bright for my taste.


 
At least you could probably dim it if you wanted to.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 5, 2013)

semipro said:


> At least you could probably dim it if you wanted to.


The thing gets pretty hot too. I guess once you get up to 1000 lumens they start producing heat as well as light. THe xmas LED lights are not even warm.


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## jharkin (Aug 6, 2013)

Joful said:


> Thanks, Jeremy! Sure, if it's not too much trouble. However, after looking and not finding any with sloped surrounds, it looks like I'm back in the territory of a non-surround PAR38 form factor.


 
Ok, these are the Home depot Branded Cree CR6s. 9.5w and to my eye brighter than the 65w incandescents we used to have.

I tried my best to shoot without flash at low ISO to get the colors. There were no other lights on in the area so at full dim its pretty dark, but not as dark as appears in the photo. The color at full bright is very warm, at full dim they go more whitish, rather than reddish as incandescents do, but even at full dim that are warmer than a daylight bulb.

Full dim on these bulbs is quite low.



Full bright:




Half:



Full dim:


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## jharkin (Aug 6, 2013)

Next up are the Homedepot BR30s, made by Lighting Science Group.  These are 15w and VERY bright. Brighter than CFLs and I think brighter than the old 65w incans.  The color at full bright is decent, but not as nice as the Cree. they dont dim quite as low and the color does go a bit whiter at full dim.

Full bright, with flash (L) and without flash (R):




Half:


Full dim:


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2013)

Awesome!  Thanks, Jeremy!  I always like getting a peek inside other old houses, as well.    Are those HD BR30's in your summer kitchen?


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## jharkin (Aug 6, 2013)

Joful said:


> Awesome! Thanks, Jeremy! I always like getting a peek inside other old houses, as well.  Are those HD BR30's in your summer kitchen?


 
Yes, the BR30s are in our modern kitchen that is in the end of the ell that would have been a summer kitchen if the house had one.  This house is really small however, and in this area There is no attic floor above so I suspect it may also have been a workshop or firewood storage area with access to the kitchen and up to the attic space. A couple of the museum houses at Sturbridge have a similar layout, at hte back of hte ell you go into a storage area that has a door into the ell kitchen, an a ladder up to the attic above the kitchen.

I used to have a big photo thread on oldhouseweb with a lot of interior shots but its gone now. 

Totally off topic but you would appreciate it... whats driving us nuts here is that the most famous historic house in town  just went on the market 5 minutes down the street. An 1802 center hall federal house with a massive rear addition, 3 chimneys, 6 rumfords,  3x the square footage and 2x the lot size as us...

for only 80k more than this place is worth! If only the kids where in school and my wife was back to work full time.............


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2013)

Oh, man... you gotta find a way to work that! Do you have any relationship with the seller? If you have plans for the wife to go back to work in the future, you might be able to work something out. The seller of our place, who was trying to sell us on an additional 7 acres surrounding our property, had made the offer to finance a portion of the cost for us for a few years.

It's not a bad time to secure a new mortgage, if you can! A co-worker scored 2.75% on a 15-year fixed earlier this year, we got 3.375% in 2011. I have a good friend who owns a mortgage brokerage, if you're interested in talking numbers with someone.


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## jharkin (Aug 6, 2013)

Joful said:


> Oh, man... you gotta find a way to work that! Do you have any relationship with the seller? If you have plans for the wife to go back to work in the future, you might be able to work something out. The seller of our place, who was trying to sell us on an additional 7 acres surrounding our property, had made the offer to finance a portion of the cost for us for a few years.
> 
> It's not a bad time to secure a new mortgage, if you can! A co-worker scored 2.75% on a 15-year fixed earlier this year, we got 3.375% in 2011. I have a good friend who owns a mortgage brokerage, if you're interested in talking numbers with someone.


 

Oh do I wish. I'm fairly sure the bank would approve us for the loan (we just refi'd our existing note from 4.75 down to 3.5 without issue), assuming I was able to sell this place simultaneously and roll the proceeds into a decent down payment. Thing is that the bigger note is more than I want to carry right now until I'm *sure* of when/how my wife will go back to work, etc. There would also be be a lot of other increased carrying costs with the new house - about $3k higher taxes and a _huge_ utility hit - its much larger and all Oil  vs natgas here. And we really need a bigger second car as well, plus the kids will be starting preschool next year (all private around here), and I'm not yet saving as much in their college fund as I'd like.

The other thing is that I can see from the listing photos about 100k worth of obvious work Id want to do to it. The house has great bones and still maintains almost all the original detail but the low listing price for its size reflects the fact its desperately in need of updating - oil heat and hot water (but there is city gas on street), no woodstove, ancient coil electric stove and other dated appliances. No garage. No patio. 60s kitchen and lots of dated wallpaper. Probably needs a lot of electric work too and who knows if its ever been weatherized and insulated. Considering the time since it last sold there is a 50/50 chance the title V inspection will fail and require an all new septic (20k+ job in this market).... Bottom line, we would be starting from scratch again doing all the updates we put so much hard work into here (new entry doors, extensive interior repainting, starting the exterior repaint, full electric, insulation, all new appliances, new kitchen gas line&range, new exterior cedar fencing/lamps/mailbox, patio, roof repairs, new sump system and on and on)

The final piece of the puzzle is that we figure this house will be hard to sell until we find a way to add a second bath to make it more market competitive. the 5-7 year plan is to finish up the kitchen updating and windows/exterior work while we save up, then either add a small half bath and sell - or decide to stay longer term and finance a bigger addition to add a master suite.


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2013)

It sounds like you have a solid plan, and where you are, there WILL be other nice old houses coming on the market when you're ready to make the move! I do know how hard it is to watch a place like that sell, though. I watched my aunt's 1692 farm house sell (actually in my family since 1692), as well as my father's house, both when I was too young to afford them. On the flip side, when I was ready to buy a big old house, I couldn't talk my uncle into selling his 1740 farm (or my wife into taking on such a big project). His place is 100% original, right down to the dust collecting in the corners.


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## Grisu (Aug 15, 2013)

Just saw this one in my inbox: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/cat...815_sbotd_2609145-_-sbotd_cta&et_rid=41286148
Philips 9.5-Watt (65W) BR30 Indoor Flood Soft White (2700K) LED Light Bulb (4-Pack); $45
Not sure if that is available everywhere but maybe you can check your HD. We have those in the kitchen and love them. Nice bright light, only a split-second delay when turned on and immediately full brightness.


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## Ashful (Aug 15, 2013)

Came inside from mowing last night, and the house is like an oven.  I ask the wife why, and she said our electric bill last month was off the charts (for reference, $400 has been "on the charts" many times before, so it must have been high), so she turned up the thermostat.  I point out that she had, by my count, more than fifty x 50W floodlights plus two TV's turned on, on the first floor alone.  She doesn't seem to understand that lights not only use energy, but that 2500W of lights plus two TV's going (no one was watching either) makes the AC work harder.  Instead, she likes to think the fact that I have a window torn out (opening sealed with plywood and 6 mil polyethylene, while I rebuild the window), and the fact that I like to keep the joint cool, as the cause of the high electric bill.

Not a major issue, as it's not going to bankrupt us, either way... but frustrating, nonetheless.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 15, 2013)

Grisu said:


> Just saw this one in my inbox: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/cat...815_sbotd_2609145-_-sbotd_cta&et_rid=41286148
> Philips 9.5-Watt (65W) BR30 Indoor Flood Soft White (2700K) LED Light Bulb (4-Pack); $45
> Not sure if that is available everywhere but maybe you can check your HD. We have those in the kitchen and love them. Nice bright light, only a split-second delay when turned on and immediately full brightness.


Whats the LUMEN output on those? EDIT: just checked the website ,its 650. thats probably about right as the one i just installed is 950 and its too dang bright. I took it back out and the wife put it back in. Id be happy with 650.


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## Grisu (Aug 15, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Whats the LUMEN output on those? EDIT: just checked the website ,its 650. thats probably about right as the one i just installed is 950 and its too dang bright. I took it back out and the wife put it back in. Id be happy with 650.


 
Quite frankly, I don't make a science out of it. We got them for $5 a piece and they are much more convenient than our CFLs we had in before. The light is certainly great for a kitchen although I am sure I would not mind it in other places around the house if we would have more floodlights.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 16, 2013)

LED lights are a GIANT decrease in energy use from the old incandescent. BUT they are only a small difference from CFL. If fact the LED i replaced in my kitchen recessed can is actually 18w vs the 15w i took out. It is brighter though.


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## Grisu (Aug 16, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> LED lights are a GIANT decrease in energy use from the old incandescent. BUT they are only a small difference from CFL. If fact the LED i replaced in my kitchen recessed can is actually 18w vs the 15w i took out. It is brighter though.


 
That's the reason why I keep using my CFLs until they fail before replacing them with a LED. Only in places where I need instant light and want to save energy I will take out the CFLs prematurely.


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## TradEddie (Aug 16, 2013)

Grisu said:


> That's the reason why I keep using my CFLs until they fail before replacing them with a LED. Only in places where I need instant light and want to save energy I will take out the CFLs prematurely.


 
That's the calculus I've been trying to decide on. I have a few places I've never been able to use CFLs satisfactorily, they'll get the LEDs first. A few marginal places where I'd prefer faster light might be next, but after that the CFLs will have to die before I'll replace them, and the ones that are left by now are the ones that may even last as long as claimed. By then the choice and price of LEDs will be even better.

TE


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## Grisu (Aug 16, 2013)

I do mix and match them. Like in the kitchen I have 4 floodlights but hated the 30 second waiting time before getting full brightness. Thus, I replaced 2 CFLs with 2 LEDs and now have 2 lights come on instantly and the 2 CFLs lagging behind are far less of an issue. Once they fail I will replace them with the CFLs I took out until they are all gone and I can switch to LEDs completely. 
In our bathroom fixture we have 4 globe bulbs which I have not seen as LEDs yet. Thus, I put 2 incadescent and 2 CFLs in. Instant light for the quick potty break but energy savings for the wife's beauty hour.


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2013)

Grisu said:


> That's the reason why I keep using my CFLs until they fail before replacing them with a LED. Only in places where I need instant light and want to save energy I will take out the CFLs prematurely.


 
Same here. I have no issue with our current CFLs. Once they got the color temperature correct they have turned out to be a decent light source. The minute or so that they take to come up to full brightness doesn't bother us. We only use them for lights that stay on for an extended period of time. It's not like you can't see when they are starting at 75% brightness.


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2013)

Just got a couple new GE LED lights to try in the kitchen. I was at our local hardware store and they had a promotional sale on them subsidized by the power company and GE, priced at $8.99. Their form factor is identical to an R30 lamp and their lumen output at 700 lumens for 10watts is excellent. The bulbs are dated and in service now. Next to the the 15w CFLs they are brighter and put out a cleaner white light. I'm a little leary because there is no heat sink on these bulbs. They look like a regular bulb with a white collar. GE claims they will last 22 years @ 3 hrs a day on their website, but 13.7 yrs on the packaging. I'm not sure how they will last so I am saving the warranty info (5 yrs) and receipt.

http://genet.gelighting.com/LightProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=LED_PRODUCT_SPEC&productcode=68158&path=LEDs_Replacement Lamps_Directional_Reflector_BR30


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## BrotherBart (Aug 17, 2013)

I get lousy life out of CFLs even though I keep buying the things. And the smell when they decide to check out is nasty. No way they are paying out. If I just left them on all of the time they would probably live forever. But I just ain't gonna stop turning the light off.


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2013)

That used to happen to me with early CFLs, but not in the past few years. No smell when at end of life. I date my CFLs, just replaced one today. It was put in 10/7/10, so almost 3 years. My wife has these kitchen lights on every day about 3 hrs in the summer and 6 hrs in the winter. These are Home Depot cheapies. I think they were like $12 for 4 bulbs. FWIW, I got almost exactly 2 years out of the 45W halogens they replaced and less than a year out of the 75w incandescents they replaced.


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## Ashful (Aug 17, 2013)

The CFL I installed in my barn's cupola lasted only a month.  It may have gotten damp, though... just discovered a small leak in the cupola.


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2013)

If these 10W LED bulbs last >5years, I will be a happy camper.


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## Grisu (Aug 17, 2013)

Joful said:


> The CFL I installed in my barn's cupola lasted only a month. It may have gotten damp, though... just discovered a small leak in the cupola.


 
I think CFLs don't like really cold or hot temps; that may have contributed to its early demise.

FWIW, I found CFLs lifespans to vary tremendously. Some did not make it a year, others are older than 5 years and still going strong. Like BG, I feel the newer ones seem to last longer than the first generations. On the other hand, I was always surprised how quickly incadescents burn out here. In Germany, we regularly got 5 years or more out of a bulb, here I was replacing them so often that I kept buying them in bulk to have some replacements at hand all the time. Could be the difference of 110 V versus 220 V, though.


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