# to flex or not to flex...



## Marin Spin (Oct 21, 2016)

The inspector would not approve our stove installation because it used flex (supplied with the stove) to connect inside the firebox. This was the last thing I expected. He said it must be hooked up via hard pipe all the way into the stove. This does create some problems: stove movement (earthquakes) putting strain on pipe, and ease of maintenance of stove come to mind.

That being said, I did a search of the plumbing code and found a section ( 1211.4  Connection  of Portable  and  Mobile  Industrial  Gas Appliances) that states flex cannot be used in "inaccessible locations". Once the shroud is installed, it would be difficult to access the valve and flex if the stove were hot. Cold would not be an issue as shroud can be removed, of course. However, there is another shutoff
valve in the garage, just the other side of the wall.

I have a great deal of respect for the inspection process and I know these guys carry a lot of information around in their heads. But I wonder how many gas inserts are installed hard pipe and not with flex? Are they just not inspected? 

Any thought on this subject? Appreciate your help.


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## DAKSY (Oct 22, 2016)

I would check your LOCAL Building/Plumbing Code. National Codes can be overridden by Local.
That being said, the ONLY thing I've seen regarding gas line in the firebox is the requirement that a shut off be in there. 
This is New York. We use flex line ALL the time. California may be different. 
Hard pipe will be a PITA, but with a union in a carefully measured system, it can be utilized...


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## Heatsource (Oct 25, 2016)

better not have flex behind your dryer, oven, etc then because its not easily accessible, crazy!
never had an inspector call us on that, but they do want to see an accessible shut-off

they dont want to see pex type gas flex inside a firebox, but metal connector flex should be fine and is used all the time


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## Millbilly (Oct 26, 2016)

Huh..if you dont use flex behind your oven how can you slide it out at all to disconnect it or reach shut off?  all of our inserts and stoves use a flexible appliance connector.


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## Marin Spin (Oct 28, 2016)

I appreciate all the replies. I called the plumbing contractor who did the gas and he said essentially the same thing: how do you pull it out for servicing? Also referenced the oven.
Heatsource: The insert came with yellow flex. I don't know if that's the kind you are referring to or not. But there are two shutoff valves: one is in the firebox (behind the shroud, with the flex), and one in the garage about 8"away on the hard pipe that goes thru the wall.

My opinion that this was all done correctly is reaffirmed. The question now is how do I go about having the county re-evaluate. Can I just ask for another inspector? Or do I go down there and ask someone to look at the evidence, pictures, installation manual, plumbers statement, etc? I mean this could cost me around $2,000 to change to the inspector's preferred method.

Thanks again for your opinions. They are very helpful.


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## Lake Girl (Oct 28, 2016)

Usually install manual takes precedence as the appliance was certified using the methods in the manual.  The county is taking on a huge liability by demanding change from manual specs.


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## Marin Spin (Oct 28, 2016)

Lake Girl: Yeah, that's the other argument from the installer as well. Glad to hear it so precisely agreed with. 
Thanks


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## Marin Spin (Nov 17, 2016)

Marin Spin said:


> The inspector would not approve our stove installation because it used flex (supplied with the stove) to connect inside the firebox. This was the last thing I expected. He said it must be hooked up via hard pipe all the way into the stove. This does create some problems: stove movement (earthquakes) putting strain on pipe, and ease of maintenance of stove come to mind.
> 
> That being said, I did a search of the plumbing code and found a section ( 1211.4  Connection  of Portable  and  Mobile  Industrial  Gas Appliances) that states flex cannot be used in "inaccessible locations". Once the shroud is installed, it would be difficult to access the valve and flex if the stove were hot. Cold would not be an issue as shroud can be removed, of course. However, there is another shutoff
> valve in the garage, just the other side of the wall.
> ...


UPDATE: I did everything I could to reason with the inspector and his supervisor concerning the (to me) inadviseability of attaching schedule 40 pipe to the delicate control valve beneath the gas insert. To no avail. So I asked to have the relevant code section cited that I may see it for myself and show it to my installer and plumbing contractor, neither of which had ever heard of this (dealer/installer appalled!). To no avail. Just the final judgment to put hard pipe into the control valve deep inside the control area to the outside of the unit, where a key lock shut-off valve may be installed and then flex can be run to the gas supply line. End of conversation.  I agreed to do it, but I sure wish I could actually see the code that mandates it. I guess they couldn't find it. The county can just decide what they believe is best and mandate it, I guess, without regard to the formal testing by Warnock-Hersey testing or the manufacturer's installation recommendations.

Rant over.


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## Lake Girl (Nov 17, 2016)

Make sure you keep the documents in a safe place as the County now "owns" the liability should there be any problems as it differs from manufacturers specs.  Make sure your insurance has a copy... Copy of the installation manual and copy of the county requirement and final sign-off.


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## Marin Spin (Nov 18, 2016)

From the county building code:

"._..nor shall the County of Marin or any official or employee thereof be held as assuming any such liability or responsibility by reason of the inspection performed or permit issued by the inspector, or by any reason of any act or omission in the discharge of his duties_."

I gotta find a way to let this go, I guess.


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## DAKSY (Nov 18, 2016)

If it was in MY house, once it was approved by the inspector, I'd change it back to flex. Just cuz.


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## Lake Girl (Nov 18, 2016)

Was thinking along the same lines DAKSY.  I'm not sure the disclaimer from the county would hold in court especially if there was a paper trail of them requiring other than the manufacturer's installation directions.


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## Marin Spin (Nov 19, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Was thinking along the same lines DAKSY.  I'm not sure the disclaimer from the county would hold in court especially if there was a paper trail of them requiring other than the manufacturer's installation directions.


Looks like I'm gonna have to hope for that. I doubt I'll change it back. We still need permits for future work and wouldn't like getting the same inspector back after complaining about this so much to his supervisor. But I'm always going to wonder what a different inspector would have said.
But, we haven't tried to do the work yet. I'm not certain it will actually work. Well see.


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## Marin Spin (Dec 4, 2016)

UPDATE: Inspector compromised. Plumber installed hard pipe all the way to a keyed valve installed into the shroud. From there, a hard nipple went just inside the stove housing. Then flex was allowed to the actual control valve.
I believe the inspector was thinking about the code for flex line from 2002 that stated "flex cannot enter any apliance housing". That wording was changed sometime later to state that flex connection could not be done in unsafe or hazardous manner. To me, that would indicate that the code recognised that it was necessary in some cases to pass through an appliance housing (as in gas inserts, maybe?). But, oh well. It's done, and I'm just glad that the control valve has flex to it, providing at least some protection from the occasional earthquake.
Everybody's happy.
Thanks all for your interest and comments.


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