# Off-Gri(n)d Tiny House



## jebatty (Mar 29, 2013)

Dreaming and wishing is moving into a plan: build an energy independent, off the gri(n)d tiny house. Any input, ideas, debunking would be appreciated. I want to make a reasonably mature proposal to an environmental organization to partner on building this, with the goal being that if it works, the organization could expand the concept into living quarters for staff.

Off Grid Tiny House Concept: a livable home that is energy self-sufficient.

Build a shell tiny house, fully insulated and equipped with needed systems (solar hot water collectors and solar panels, hot water hydronics, and basic electric); collect data for one year to determine feasibility and practicality.

1) Dimensions
12' x 16' = 256 sq ft
1 - 3' x 6'8" insulated door (R2+)
3 - 2' x 3' window (R2})
1 - 1' x 12' window (R?)
Tube light

2) Basic features
general lighting: self-contained, rechargeable lamps (Nokero)
1-2 DC lamps for special needs
in-floor radiant
rainwater collection: non-potable water needs
toilet: humanure, composting, evaporative ???
waste (gray) water handling: ??? want to avoid a septic system
DW water storage: 5+ gal ??? (livable tiny house may need a well)
DHW via coil in open hot water storage tank
DC hydronic pump(s): need to calculate energy requirement
DC DW/DHW pump(s): need to calculate energy requirement
cooking: propane gas burner(s) - can this be avoided?
cooking (except harsh winter): Rocket stove-type
solar oven: to be used outside, except harsh winter (could this be built into a wall ???)
solar slow cooker, to be used outside, except harsh winter (could this be built into a wall ???)

3) Preliminary heating requirements: want to be able to provide 24 hours of heat, assuming no solar available, otherwise solar to meet daily demand.
solar hot water collectors, drain back, size to meet design requirement (9400 HDD)
est'd heat loss:
... -15F= 6000btuh = 450 gallons at D40 (design temp, area does experience lower temps occasionally)
... at 0 = 5000btuh = 360 gal water at D40
... at 20 = 3500btuh = 251 gal water at D40
... at 40 = 2100btuh = 151 gal water at D40
estimate 450 gallons of open, insulated storage (3,750 lbs +/-)
450 gallons at delta-T=40 (storage from 140-100F) = 150,000 btu
6000 btuh x 24 = 144,000 btu required storage
open storage: need 60 cu ft (450 gal) (3 x 6 x 3.5 = 63 cu ft)

4) Preliminary electric requirements: need at minimum to supply DC pumps
solar panels, batteries: need to calculate electric requirement and size to meet design
lighting: generally self-contained rechargeable (Nokero)
radio, computer tablet device, cellular/internet connection, other: self-contained rechargeable batteries, NiMH (Eneloop) or Li-ion, etc.
small battery charger: 12V, Nitecore or similar; also multi-voltage output operating from 12V

5) Insulation, other requirements
R30 minimum walls and floor
R50 minimum ceiling
fresh air supply and venting: calculate air exchange requirements and size accordingly


----------



## GaryGary (Mar 29, 2013)

jebatty said:


> Dreaming and wishing is moving into a plan: build an energy independent, off the gri(n)d tiny house. Any input, ideas, debunking would be appreciated. I want to make a reasonably mature proposal to an environmental organization to partner on building this, with the goal being that if it works, the organization could expand the concept into living quarters for staff.
> 
> Off Grid Tiny House Concept: a livable home that is energy self-sufficient.
> 
> ...


 
Hi,
You might look at a scheme to get higher R value windows and door.   A quick heat loss indicates that they are the biggest loss, and that getting them up to R4 would cut total heat loss by about 25%.   R4 windows would be expensive, but R2 windows with R2 or 3 thermal shades might be pretty reasonable.
I don't think that an R4 (or R6) door is too hard to come by these days.

How about rain water collection off a steel roof?

In the heat loss on a small structure like this, internal gains from warm bodies etc helps to reduce the heating requirement --  maybe account for that?

Gary


----------



## jebatty (Mar 29, 2013)

Excellent ideas. My heat loss calc was pretty rough, and as the plan moves forward I will tighten that up*. *MN has some cloudy stretches in Nov-Dec, starts to get pretty sunny in Jan-Mar, but of course Jan also is the coldest month usually and the lowest sun angle + sun availability. I likely will intentionally err on the side of more rather than less in planning for winter heating.

With a little luck, I will be able to obtain some very high end windows, plus plastic film and thermal shades may get the windows into the R8 (U-0.12) range. I am going to make the door, wood frame with 1-1/2 or 2" foam core, which would end up R3+ in the frame and R12 in the core.

Warm bodies are significant. I think the plan should be for a single person, working, and gone from the house as much as 12 hr per day. Night with a warm body will be important, and I may have to introduce a heat source to approximate a person to get more accurate data representation.


----------



## Vic99 (Mar 29, 2013)

I like it.

1) Loft for sleeping?
2) What kind of roof?
3) I agree, windows are weak point.  You could build a plexi glass type cover to go over the R-3 windows (aren't double pane, argon injected windows R-3).  Should be fairly cheap.  The plexi would bump to R-4, I think.  Could be removable.  Plastic over that should be R-5
4) Batteries for solar could get expensive, maybe double cost.  Heard they would last ~5 years before replacing, unless you are careful all the time about not draining battery.


----------



## jebatty (Mar 30, 2013)

1) Loft for sleeping: right now, no. The proposal will be for a shell for data collection. I did work out a preliminary floor plan. The bed will be a "murphy" style bed on one end, fold up against the wall to give floor space during the daytime. I will post the floor plan for comment after I work on it a bit more.
2) Roof: probably metal. Drain back hot water solar collectors on the south-facing roof, with solar panels on the south-facing wall. I still have to work out the btu output and size these for Dec-January in MN, Dec for clouds and often fairly cold in late Dec, and Jan for sun and really cold. This winter weather data for 2012-13 should be quite close to what the plan should be for.
3) Windows: most double pane are in the R2-3 range. There are windows in the R12 range. I hope I can get a lead on a substantial discount or donation of windows well above the R2-3 range. Regardless, more window treatment will be necessary (plexiglass, plastic film, thermal shade, etc. I think windows might be really important for livability in a small space.
4) Batteries: yes, cost; but the plan intends to really minimize electric demand. Check out nokero.com for lighting. I already have 4 of the N220 lights, self-contained rechargebable, and I use these in my home. Put them outside and let them charge in the daytime, up to about 5 hours of light on "hi" brightness at night.These use AA NiMH batteries, so a few spare charged batteries on hand to cover when needed. And cell phone + a tablet (IPad, Kindle, etc.) for phone, media access, etc. also have their own batteries, and they can charge off a 12V system. At this point I see the 12vdc pumps for the heating system being the major draw, and I haven't spec'd these out yet to determine how much electric, solar panels + batteries, I will need. I also have a possible source on lightly used AGM 12v-100ah batteries at a very reasonable cost.

In the end, if this works, it still needs to be livable to a segment of the population. So, the plan cannot be minimalist to the absurd. And, the final "Off the Gri(n)d Tiny House" may have to end up a little larger than 200 sq. ft., although I'm seeing more and more big city apartments in the less than 200 sq. ft. range. A pipeline dream may be a cluster with a central shared area, which is what the environmental organization might move forward on, but I don't want to go in that direction until I know whether a prototype can work.


----------



## jebatty (Mar 30, 2013)

If I assume no windows/doors, and floor/wall at R30 and ceiling at R50, then heat loss at -15F is 3256 btuH and at -20F it is 3447 btuH. With better window/door performance, and heat from an occupant, perhaps a heat loss of about 4000 to 4500 btuH would be more realistic. I still would be inclined to size water storage at 450 gallons for planning purposes. If data over a year would show that less would provide adequate performance, then it could be down-sized for building an actual living space.


----------



## dougstove (Mar 30, 2013)

For the composting toilet:
There is a direct tradeoff between the minimum compost volume and the required rate of compost digestion.
A large pool size can compensate for a slow or variable composting rate, or a variable input rate.
A small pool size is lower mass, but needs consistently high composting rates, and can be problematic if the input rate varies.
Depending upon how you built it, the composting mass could serve as a heat source and heat sink, in, for example, an insulated basement.

For true sustainability, a cluster of such houses might share some central facilities, like laundry, and possibly even showers & toilets, to help even out the waste input rates.

Also, re-using grey water can be problematic, since using greywater in a toilet tank can lead to biofilms and even pathogens like Legionnaire's disease.  It can be done, but it is not as simple as replacing a treated water input into an ordinary toilet tank.


----------



## Highbeam (Mar 30, 2013)

If your only real "off-grid" requirement is that you are not directly tied to the grid then why futz around with the other compromises? You have propane so use it. Septic systems work very well with no electric input. Why not just roll up with an RV to your spot equipped with a big propane tank and a septic system?

Is off-grid the best way to describe this effort?


----------



## Circus (Mar 30, 2013)

jebatty said:


> At this point I see the 12vdc pumps for the heating system being the major draw​


IF the hot water tank is above the collector and in the heated space you could use a siphon type (most common). You would need antifreeze and a heat exchanger but no pumps. When the sun doesn't cooperate you'll need a camper water heater. I once bought a raty 24 ft camper trailer for $100. It had all the systems so you wouldn't need to start from scratch.


----------



## mr.fixit (Mar 30, 2013)

Having run a 2.7kw off grid system thru 2 winters now,here's my thoughts.
Those dark days of Nov-Dec-Jan really are hard to get thru on strictly solar.Little by little the batteries get drained and even if you get a stretch of sunny days in a row,its hard to get them back to 100% charged without a generator.

With smaller true sinewave inverters available,and pv panels at more reasonable prices,seems it would be much simpler keeping everything AC? You would be able to use common and easily available pumps,switches,wiring etc. I have a Grundfos Alpha pump in my system that uses very few watts.

As far as batteries go,from what I have read on some of the solar forums,the easily obtainable 6v golf cart deep cycle battery has been found to be one of the lowest lifetime cost per kwh.

I also have a solar hot water heating system in one of my buildings with infloor radiant. The collectors are based off of Gary from Builditsolar's design. The collectors work well,but like the electric,it takes a hit on those long cloudy periods common in the winter here. So you really need a good backup for the heat to.

On the size of the little house,did I once read that it is possible to get too small,where there isn't enough mass in the structure?
Could that affect the heating with infloor ? I don't know about this so that's why I bring it up.


----------



## jebatty (Mar 30, 2013)

dougstove: I agree on the cluster. We have the land to do this, but we are 15 mi from the nearest towns and most of the jobs. Transportation is a killer if the goal is to get really close to sustainability. I don't plan to reuse grey water, but perhaps in some fashion to use rainwater from a roof collection system, could be sanitized with bleach and used as dish and shower water? The composting toilet needs continuing research on viability., and I'm thinking more of an evaporative toilet design. I think the chance of it working well with heavy use could be problematic, but for 1-2 people should be doable.

Highbeam: Might not be rational in everyone's mind, but in my mind putting an end to use of fossil fuels is a worth goal, thus no desire to use propane unless no other alternative. Septic systems are expensive, in the range of $5000 and up depending on conditions. Would like to avoid that expense. Off the grid may not be the best description, but what I am proposing truly is off the grid + another step towards sustainability. Consider it my passion -- no tie to the petrol-oilman.

Circus: thermosiphon could work. But cost for antifreeze for 450 gallons of hot water storage would be very expensive; thus drainback hot water collectors seems a better way to go, even with required pump(s). Going 120/240 AC is a real possibility, and probably using micro inverters. AC also would make it easy for an emergency backup generator to be used if needed. But I still would need batteries for the times when the sun doesn't shine, and with that going DC may make more sense. .I'm not committed to in-floor radiant, but I think I need to be committed to low temperature radiant. Other low temp radiant ideas? You are  in west central WI. If willing, PM me with location and contact info and maybe I could make a visit to talk about your experiences. Thanks.

I really appreciate the input. Maybe someone, and probably so,has already tried this. I would like to learn from others without having to learn what already is known.


----------



## Circus (Mar 30, 2013)

jebatty said:


> Circus: thermosiphon could work. But cost for antifreeze for 450 gallons of hot water storage would be very expensive; thus drainback hot water collectors seems a better way to go, even with required pump(s).​


Antifreeze would be used only in the heat exchanger and collector. 80 sq ft of collector wouldn't heat 450 gal.. In January, may heat 30. Maybe.


----------



## jebatty (Mar 30, 2013)

That's in part why I'm thinking water, drain-back - eliminated the efficiency loss with a heat exchanger. But I agree, this will take some careful planning and sizing.


----------



## Circus (Mar 31, 2013)

Investigate use of the grid to store summer energy for use in the winter, phase change materials and aerobic treatment.
PS Heat exchangers are efficient. There just isn't much energy to harvest in a Minnesota december.


----------



## jebatty (Mar 31, 2013)

Maybe it's more accurate to say that I don't see a need for a heat exchanger with the drain-back system. The collectors can directly heat all the water in the storage tank. I have emailed a top solar hot water collector company and asked for its input on the concept, design, etc. It will be interesting to see the response.


----------



## wazzu (Mar 31, 2013)

Why no outhouse? It would be cheaper and easier.


----------



## btuser (Mar 31, 2013)

wazzu said:


> Why no outhouse? It would be cheaper and easier.


Might not be allowed.  I've looked into low-impact buildings for camp sites and getaways.  My plan was to stick a yurt on a "unbuildable" lot with no utilities and use a composting toilet to avoid septic.  No go, not one town would even consider it.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Mar 31, 2013)

Vic99 said:


> I like it.
> 
> 1) Loft for sleeping?
> 2) What kind of roof?
> ...


For windows i would just make myself some 2" foam interior doors that close over the windows at night. A simple solution.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Mar 31, 2013)

Modern composting toilets work very well.Go for months between emptying.  Even those sawdust open jobs perform without odor.


----------



## jebatty (Apr 1, 2013)

I like the foam "doors" to cover the windows, especially at night. Can keep the doors open in the daytime when someone is "at home." I have made and used a humanure toilet using sawdust and planer shavings. Works well also. This is the simplest and least expensive option. An outhouse in our area requires a permit and would be another permanent-type structure, which I would like to avoid. Also must meet septic regulation requirements. It would be worth pricing one just to see what an outhouse install would cost.


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Apr 1, 2013)

If you are looking at putting the tiny house on an unbuildable lot maybe you can do what other small houses have done and build it on a trailer.  Since it is a trailer it doesn't need a Cert of Occupancy.  

The main issue I see with a super tiny house is well, it's super tiny.  There isn't space for all of the things you are discussing such as waste water heat exchangers and such.  For a toilet, how about renting a port-o-let?  It would be cold in the winter, but would save lots of space and deal with the problem of waste storage.  A well insulated house the size you are talking of will not take much to heat, so propane may be the most environmentally sound way to heat it.  With the right amount of insulation, and considering body heat as a source of btus, you might be able to get the house to the point where a 20lb tank would last more than a week. Superinsulated houses use insanely low amounts of energy to heat them.   

Matt


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 2, 2013)

I got an acre in the woods that i cant build permanent on(because of septic,ground water too close to the surface) So im looking at something like this so i  can spend time there. But i can legally put up a 20x 30 cabin with no foundation so that is the plan.


----------



## jebatty (Apr 2, 2013)

Back to basics. The goal of the tiny house concept is "a livable home that is energy self-sufficient." It is a concept experiment, and if it works, the environmental organization may develop it further for staff housing. My goal is 100% solar, no fossil fuels, not even propane. I know this is extreme, but that is the direction I want to move.

I have land to build a mcMansion, if I wanted to; lots of forest for firewood; good soils for a septic system; no permit issues. County zoning will allow the tiny house as a storage building, as I don't intend to live in it, just collect data. It could be re-permitted later as living quarters.

Lots of good ideas have come forward. These are now on my checklist for further development:
1) steel roof for rainwater collection (also collect run-off from collectors installed on the roof).
2) will not reuse grey water, but I need to dispose of it without a septic system -- probably just toss it out on the ground, which I think I legally can do if I do not have a well.
3) windows with foam doors, possibly thermal shades, plastic film, etc. -- need high R-value.
3) toilet options: humanure, evaporative, composting -- but needs to be electric free, unless solar.
4) skytube light -- I know these work very well, but a couple of windows still need to be included to reduce the claustrophobia and provide ventilation.
5) thinking about a small solar fan ventilation system to get rid of humidity and bring in fresh air.
6) thinking more about pressurized hot water solar collectors with antifreeze, not drainback. Pumps for drainback are fairly energy intensive, depending on lift height. A DC or AC circulator in a pressurized system would use much less electricity. I have a 6" x 12" by 100 plate hx, brand new, which could be used. My guess is that approach temperature would be less than 5F.
7) golf cart batteries deserve a good luck. I saw these at a local big box store, 200ah at 20 hour rate, 6v, for $90 each. Two of these would provide about 100 watts of power for 16 hours at 50% discharge, which is about as low a discharge as I would like to see.
8) not decided on a DC solar system or an AC solar system. Micro inverters on each panel are interesting. Efficiency losses on reconverting to DC for battery charging and inverter to provide AC from batteries may be an issue.
9) I do have line voltage available as emergency backup, although a small sine wave generator likely would be the first emergency backup to maintain the off-the-grid concept. I have a Champion 2000w inverter generator.

The major supplier of solar hot water panels has responded positively to my inquiry and will provide me with its input on whether solar hot water, with sufficient storage, can heat the house all winter, or at least to what low temperature this could be achieved. Supplemental energy use is not the goal, but given cloudy, cold Dec and Jan, and sometimes Feb, in my area, it might be unavoidable. Design temp is -15 to -20F, but -30F and colder for brief periods is very likely. This is a critical issue.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 2, 2013)

Jebetty
Should also be able to transport on a trailer.Or actually built on a trailer frame. For one thing to get around most septic requirements be should also be mobil in case of flood,fire ect. Given the small size,should not be difficult.


----------



## mr.fixit (Apr 2, 2013)

Here's a place in Canada that stores up solar heat all summer for use in the winter,large scale. http://www.dlsc.ca/
I think it says it supplies 90% of space heating thru the winter.

When I built one of my buildings with solar hot water collectors,just for experimental purposes I put an insulated sand "pit" underneath the slab.I think it was 4'by4'by 8' with 250' of pex in it.In late summer I heat it up with the solar, thinking the ground under the slab would take longer to get cold as winter progresses.It works but after you stop pumping heat into it ,it dissipates rather quickly.
I thought maybe I could draw some heat out of it early in the winter and put it into the slab,but not so much.

One fall I tried to see how far into the winter I could let that building go strictly on it's solar heat.Of course I didn't keep a log or anything,but from memory it went till Dec. 1st and then it got down below 48* in the building and I needed to use it so the boiler took over and brought it back.
I think with infloor heat,if you let the slab drop down too far,it takes so much to bring it back to normal levels.Now what I do is have the boiler heat the solar storage tank if it drops below 85*.

On the micro inverters you are referring to,I always thought they were strictly for grid tie use?

Big thing on the electric solar system is to know what your daily loads will be and size the system for the lowest producing months,Nov-Dec-Jan-Feb.


----------



## Jags (Apr 2, 2013)

Jim - where do you plan to place the water storage?  Without a basement or outbuilding, it will obviously need to be inside the building envelope.


----------



## jebatty (Apr 2, 2013)

Seasoned Oak: at 12' width, the house would be transportable but not mobile/trailer frame size. I don't intend to haul it around, but it might be relocated.

Another approach to the heat would be to simply use the storage as a radiator and not have any other radiant, which for this small size structure should also work. I'm thinking a sliding foam door to the storage, using a linear actuator and a controller, which would open/shut the door incrementally to maintain a target interior temperature.  This also would save electricity by not needing a radiant pump. I did this before in my old shop with my roughly insulated 1000 gal hot water storage tank for my gasification boiler. I exposed more or less of the tank as needed to keep the shop warm, not sophisticated, but worked.


----------



## jebatty (Apr 2, 2013)

Jags: the storage will be inside the structure, about 4' x 6' by 4' high, open storage. I can make this out of wood with EPDM lining.


----------



## Jags (Apr 2, 2013)

By open, do you mean open air?  Wouldn't this cause a humidity issue in such a small place?


----------



## jebatty (Apr 2, 2013)

Open (to the air, but limited air exposure) storage is used by many with wood gasification boiler systems, and in addition to home-made storage, there are several companies that right now market open storage tanks/containers.

But ...

I was just blown away by a phone conversation with an expert at design concepts, sizing, installation, etc. in the solar thermal industry. Although I may be jumping a bit to a conclusion, I am of the impression that what I was thinking about, while interesting and even fun as a do-it-yourself project, is already commercially available and could be fully solar powered with hot water collectors and solar electric, even in the northern Minnesota climate. I need to do a lot more, obviously, to flesh this out. But if so, then I need to rethink the proposal I want to make, because if a fully livable structure, up to several hundreds of square feet, could be built, that probably is the way to go, and data collection, reporting, and educational instruction all could proceed simultaneously through the building period as well as the living experience period.

I guess when a person drops a hook with bait into the water, the person never knows for sure what might bite. This thread is likely to push me into a new area of learning and experimentation.


----------



## Jags (Apr 2, 2013)

Cool.  Keep posting as you learn.


----------



## webbie (Apr 6, 2013)

The "tiny house" movement is really catching on nationwide....that and "small houses"....

I was looking at these recently.....
http://www.cabinfever.us.com/home.html


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 6, 2013)

This place is close to me and they make a nice log cabin im considering to replace my aging cabin in the woods. You can buy most of these structures 500*600 SF as you see it in the pictures but with inside unfinished for less than 10K. Id finish the inside myself .
http://www.hillsidestructures.com


----------



## jebatty (Apr 7, 2013)

One big attraction for the tiny or small house is getting rid of excess and simplifying life. As I give thought to that, I'm asking the question of why I can't do that now with my larger house, 1500 sq ft + basement. My wife and I are getting better at ridding of excess and simplification. Our current mission is a one month trial of minimizing electric usage. I think the biggest drawback here is the electric dryer, and my wife does not want to hang clothes outside to dry.

The second attraction is energy independence, solar electric, hot water, and space heating. Size of a house is a big factor here due to the cost of moving to all solar (or wind) with a larger house vs a small house, but we are doing some small solar projects to get a feel for this, and we are getting a bid on a grid-tied system. The wood stove probably should be considered solar as well, and almost all of our space heating comes from wood. Moving to solar dhw currently makes no sense due to the very low rate we pay for off-peak dhw electric. Also not easy to replace the electric cook-top and oven.

Moving thought to action, modifying behavior, is the key to real change.


----------



## Circus (Apr 7, 2013)

The idea of two people stuck in a building the size of an average bedroom is scary. 1500 sq. ft is just about the minimum to avoid murder. Besides, size doesn't alter energy use as much as people think


----------



## webbie (Apr 7, 2013)

Circus said:


> The idea of two people stuck in a building the size of an average bedroom is scary. 1500 sq. ft is just about the minimum to avoid murder. Besides, size doesn't alter energy use as much as people think


 
Depends on the climate and setup.....and the people!
We lived for 3 years in a 12x20 army tent with a floor and windows.....but we were younger.
More recently we spent a month in an 850 sq. ft bungalow and I can report that it was definitely more than big enough to avoid murder. The key, IMHO, is having two bathrooms - however small they are - and various separate spaces. This bungalow had plenty....it had a tiny kitchen which is OK, as well as no real duplication of rooms (just one living area,  but two closed in porches which, in the warm climes, are actually living areas).

I think it does change with the climate. Up north I would not want to stuck in a small cabin with anyone.....


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 7, 2013)

Circus said:


> The idea of two people stuck in a building the size of an average bedroom is scary. 1500 sq. ft is just about the minimum to avoid murder. Besides, size doesn't alter energy use as much as people think


As people get older they may want to spend less time cleaning ,maintaining a large home.Or they may want to travel. I get calls from empty nesters who want to sell their large home and lot and rent a small townhouse or half a duplex so they dont have to deal with contractors,grounds keepers as they age. My home is 3000SF but i dont need near that for a cabin in the woods to spend the occasional weekend.


----------



## GaryGary (Apr 7, 2013)

Circus said:


> The idea of two people stuck in a building the size of an average bedroom is scary. 1500 sq. ft is just about the minimum to avoid murder. Besides, size doesn't alter energy use as much as people think





Circus said:


> The idea of two people stuck in a building the size of an average bedroom is scary. 1500 sq. ft is just about the minimum to avoid murder. Besides, size doesn't alter energy use as much as people think


 

The 12 by 16 (192 sf) house has a heat loss area of (12+12+16+16)(8) + (2)(192 = 448 walls + 384 flr/ceil = 832 sf

A 33.6 ft by 44.7 ft (1500 sf) house has a heat loss area of (33.6 + 33.6 + 44.7 + 44.7)(8) + (2) (1500) = 1253 walls + 3000 flr/ceil =  4253 sf 

So, the floor area is 7.8 times larger and the heat loss area is 5.1 times larger.

Gary


----------



## Circus (Apr 7, 2013)

GaryGary said:


> heat loss area is 5.1 times larger.​


 
Quoting AboutDotcom Home Repair
Loss of heat (AC)
Infiltration / Air Leakage: 35%
Windows and Doors: 18%-20%
Floors and Below Grade Space: 15%-18%
Walls: 12%-14% Ceilings: 10%
People add attic insulation mainly because it's cheap and easy to do.


----------



## jebatty (Apr 8, 2013)

Don't you think that the idea of needing lots of space to avoid murder or reasonably live is a cultural experience? There are lots of people in the world who live in very small spaces. Right after WWII the average new home was around 800 sq ft, and family size in many cases was 4-6 children. Pre-WWII had even smaller homes and often even larger families. Asia, Africa, and even European standards for sqft/person are much less than in the US.

I grew up in one of those 800 sq ft homes, two parents and 4 children, with 3 boys sharing one very small bedroom (bunk beds + a single bed). That was 133 sqft/person. No murder.


----------



## DevilsBrew (May 1, 2013)

I have been looking at land and planning to build a tiny house. My friend ordered a shed shell and converted it. I would like to do the same thing or else rehab a small barn. The major hurdles are land prices and regulations.

That is why I am interested in small stoves.

I think this is an awesome way to live.  Good luck to you.


----------



## jebatty (May 2, 2013)

For small stoves that probably would work for a tiny house, look at wood stoves designed for small boats, sailboats, etc. Where I live there is no minimum size for a home.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 2, 2013)

DevilsBrew said:


> I have been looking at land and planning to build a tiny house. My friend ordered a shed shell and converted it. I would like to do the same thing or else rehab a small barn. The major hurdles are land prices and regulations.
> That is why I am interested in small stoves.
> I think this is an awesome way to live. Good luck to you.


You can order these "sheds" just about any size and also equipped with kitchens and a bath. Pre-wired or do your own. I plan to build a small log cabin on my land in the woods that way. Order the shell and wa-la instant "out of the weather " already. A 12 x 40 shell is only $6000 but  i plan to get about a 18x30 1 story and put beds-cots up inside the roof area. Ill wire it myself and install a kitchen and a bath with either a composting toilet or some other type to avoid spending 20K on an elaborate septic system.


----------



## Chain (May 9, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> You can order these "sheds" just about any size and also equipped with kitchens and a bath. Pre-wired or do your own. I plan to build a small log cabin on my land in the woods that way. Order the shell and wa-la instant "out of the weather " already. A 12 x 40 shell is only $6000 but i plan to get about a 18x30 1 story and put beds-cots up inside the roof area. Ill wire it myself and install a kitchen and a bath with either a composting toilet or some other type to avoid spending 20K on an elaborate septic system.


 
Speaking of elaborate septic systems, I'm waiting for someone to invent a relatively affordable septic system that is also a bio-digester that can create enough methane to generate electricity via a generator and/or be burned directly in a cook stove that also can heat a micro-cabin.  Sort of as an auxiliary, back up system.  And when not being used directly, stores the methane created for future use.  Something in 8-10K range that will serve a family of 4 or less.  A pipe dream I know, but maybe in my lifetime.


----------



## DevilsBrew (May 9, 2013)

That reminds me of the Poo Pot episode on Dirty Jobs.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 9, 2013)

The Govt is just over the top with these elaborate systems,right now and old amish farmer living on a 140 acre farm is being forced to spend 20K+ on an elaborate system pumps,manhole access, a giant leech field simply because his house has 4 bedrooms. My solution for that would be to turn those 4 bedrooms into something else,walkin closets ect in order to qualify for a much smaller system.
Down the road if a large family moves in they can deal with an upgrade then.


----------



## billjustbill (May 22, 2013)

jebatty said:


> Dreaming and wishing is moving into a plan: build an energy independent, off the gri(n)d tiny house. Any input, ideas, debunking would be appreciated. I want to make a reasonably mature proposal to an environmental organization to partner on building this, with the goal being that if it works, the organization could expand the concept into living quarters for staff.
> Off Grid Tiny House Concept: a livable home that is energy self-sufficient.


 
For the Murphy Bed idea, here's a new kit to build one and save some more dollars:
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=32550&utm_source=NL&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=V2356
Good luck and keep us updated with your progress.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 22, 2013)

Your doin your homework bill. Is this thing Moveable? 12' wide is about the limit but it can go on the road at that size. THe ones the amish build are 12 wide and up to 40 long and will deliver them anywhere. Any estimate on the weight?


----------



## jebatty (May 24, 2013)

The off grid (grind) tiny house I was thinking of wasn't just small or transportable, although both of those are good goals. But that critter has been created in the form of a small travel trailer. For really small see http://www.scamptrailers.com/  These are pretty nifty and probably the way I would go, pun intended, if small and transportable were the main goals. My thought, however, was extremely energy efficient and truly off-grid, winter included for heat and electricity, year-round, and able to accomplish this in the cold northern Minnesota winter. Cost always is a factor, but higher initial cost for a self-sufficient living space with near $0 energy cost can pay back that cost.

For really small, I just got up from sleeping outside in my new 1-person tent, outside temp including a touch of frost. The tent, paired with an ultra light sleeping bag and self-inflatable air mattress, have a total weight of 10 lbs. The plan is for these to be my lodging on a planned 1600 mile bicycle trek around Lake Superior in September. Combine these with a rocket stove, thermal cooker, and solar rechargeable lamp, as well as an additional sleeping bag for cold -30F nights in January, and freedom of living space and transport has been achieved for about a grand. I was thinking about a solar oven, but after seeing the possibility of combining a rocket stove with a thermal cooker, I think the objectives of the solar oven can be achieved without need for the sun. And burning a few twigs also is solar energy in solid, renewable and sustainable form.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 24, 2013)

No reason why some parts cant be expandable like a pop up tent camper.  In fact you could start with a camper and add solar and other systems to it. THe newer ones are pretty well insulated.


----------



## DevilsBrew (May 24, 2013)

You might want to look at or build a four season trailer, something similar to an Artic Fox.


----------



## DevilsBrew (May 29, 2013)

Safe T Homes - Grain Bin Houses



I found this article from 2010 on how to build a grain bin house:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/grain-bins-z10m0gri.aspx?PageId=1#axzz2Ujbh7TSz


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 30, 2013)

A camper modified for off grid and 4 seasons in the way to go,all the R&D and construction is already done. Plus the miniature appliances and ability to work off propane or 12v.
Even if you dont plan to move it,also the designation of a camper would probably eliminate the property tax bill of a permanent structure.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jul 30, 2013)

Even apartments are getting into the act.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rtments-apodments-catch-on-us-cities/2580179/


----------



## jebatty (Jul 31, 2013)

> A camper modified for off grid and 4 seasons in the way to go


 
This appears to be good but I think would be very difficult. It seems to me that at least R20 insulation is needed all around, floor, walls and maybe more in the ceiling - that's 4" of foam. Modifying a trailer for this would involve tearing it all apart, and then it wouldn't fit back together again. Even the Arctic Fox 4 season models have design features that aren't conducive to off-grid, although they may be better insulated than other trailers, as they are heavily dependent on abundant electric power and propane.

The apartment article referenced and the modular apartment building leads to the idea of a manufactured off-grid home if designed up front to be off-grid. I think it needs to be transportable to a site but not designed to be travel-trailered. Water and disposal system that can handle different climates, down to -20F+ for northern climates, as well as heating, are all extremely important. The off-grid concept that intrigues me is quite minimalist, as solar electric, hot water and hot air all need to be very space conservative.


----------



## DevilsBrew (Jul 31, 2013)

Micro/Mini apartments - I did that a long time ago before the spin term.  It was called a Dorm Room.  No thanks.  

I'm still trying to figure out the best way and place to "escape".


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jul 31, 2013)

Im very interested in all the options here as im in the planning stages of replacing a crumbling cabin in the woods.
My dilemma is i need to keep it designated as a campsite NOT a residence. Othwerwise all the nasty sewer requirement regulations come into play.
The lot is in a low lying area so even if i wanted to put in a huge costly septic system(WHich i dont) it probably would not be permitted.
I want a small off grid cabin with possibly a composting or camper toilet and the ability to have all systems work likewater,heat,light,bathroom regardless of available electricity. I will still have electricity but not really have to use it.


----------



## Chain (Jul 31, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Im very interested in all the options here as im in the planning stages of replacing a crumbling cabin in the woods.
> My dilemma is i need to keep it designated as a campsite NOT a residence. Othwerwise all the nasty sewer requirement regulations come into play.
> The lot is in a low lying area so even if i wanted to put in a huge costly septic system(WHich i dont) it probably would not be permitted.
> I want a small off grid cabin with possibly a composting or camper toilet and the ability to have all systems work likewater,heat,light,bathroom regardless of available electricity. I will still have electricity but not really have to use it.


 
Check out this organization. They were featured a few years ago on either a Discovery channel or TLC program a few years ago regarding their custom built, portable mini cabins.  They built many other products on site and are located about 30 minutes from where I'm typing this and I have heard very good things about their products. Obviously several hours drive from you but they sell their product line all over the country and I believe deliver:

http://www.bearcreekcarpentry.com/


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jul 31, 2013)

Chain said:


> Check out this organization.
> 
> http://www.bearcreekcarpentry.com/


Yea thats what im looking at. THe outfit around here is quite a bit cheaper for the shell. IOll do the inside myself ,just need the shell with those exterior log boards they sell at Home Depot down south. THey use them all over the southern states ,basically a 2x8 shaved round with a tab at the top and a notch at the bottom/ Put em up like siding. Very nice


----------



## Michael Golden (Aug 5, 2013)

I don't know about no 20k septic! I just built a house last year 1250 sq ft, 2 bedroom 2 bath full basement. I installed the aerator system myself after a simple test along with 400 ft of leach field and had right around 3k in it! The whole system only took my father in law and myself two days to install. That's a far cry from 20k, I would love to be a installer in your area!


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 5, 2013)

Michael Golden said:


> I don't know about no 20k septic! I just built a house last year 1250 sq ft, 2 bedroom 2 bath full basement. I installed the aerator system myself after a simple test along with 400 ft of leach field and had right around 3k in it! The whole system only took my father in law and myself two days to install. That's a far cry from 20k, I would love to be a installer in your area!


If you have a WET area the whole thing ,that even if you can get the permit has to go on top the ground, a giant sand mound,with tanks and manhole covers and pumps and switches,and of course most people cant do it themselves.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 5, 2013)

Michael Golden said:


> . I installed the aerator system myself after a simple test along with 400 ft of leach field and had right around 3k in it! The whole system only took my father in law and myself two days to install. That's a far cry from 20k,


Get an estimate for the work you did yourself. Dont be surprised if it double or triple what you spent.


----------



## Michael Golden (Aug 6, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Get an estimate for the work you did yourself. Dont be surprised if it double or triple what you spent.



Wow above ground! It would look like the Indian serpent mound if I had to do that.


----------



## Ehouse (Aug 6, 2013)

My take on this whole scheme is a house boat/shanty boat for further combined function. Both my properties have sizable ponds. by the time the local officials figure out how to harass you, you'll be long gone. Park it on dry land, cruise the canals, pull into your bunker in cold weather, if the SHTF, or motor/sail out to the middle of the lake if the hills are ablaze. Build it yourself on pontoons instead of skids and you're good to go. Ahoy, matey!!


----------



## Chain (Aug 6, 2013)

Ehouse said:


> My take on this whole scheme is a house boat/shanty boat for further combined function. Both my properties have sizable ponds. by the time the local officials figure out how to harass you, you'll be long gone. Park it on dry land, cruise the canals, pull into your bunker in cold weather, if the SHTF, or motor/sail out to the middle of the lake if the hills are ablaze. Build it yourself on pontoons instead of skids and you're good to go. Ahoy, matey!!


 
I like this plan....


----------



## Ehouse (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm thinking vintage Airstream Bambi on pontoons for my Aqua Terra recreational/escape/survival pod.


----------



## jebatty (Aug 7, 2013)

I can smell the poo from the poo-ntoon going right into the lake. People tend to get lazy and think public waters are waste disposal sites.


----------



## Ehouse (Aug 7, 2013)

jebatty said:


> I can smell the poo from the poo-ntoon going right into the lake. People tend to get lazy and think public waters are waste disposal sites.


 

I assume your sediments are not directed toward me personally.


----------



## begreen (Aug 7, 2013)

LOL. This thread is getting wasted.


----------



## Badfish740 (Aug 7, 2013)

Count me as interested.  This is a topic I'd like to learn more about as one of our dreams to own property in the Great North Woods of Maine.  Some of the most affordable properties are off grid and quite remote, so a low impact, net zero dwelling would be key.


----------



## jebatty (Aug 8, 2013)

Seems to me that if a person genuinely is interested in an off-grid tiny house that is energy self-sufficient, most of the ideas offered realistically will not work. "Extreme" travel trailers will not work in a cold environment without lots of btu's provided by a fuel source; ditto pontoons, log-style tiny homes, etc. Assume 240 sq ft, 12 x 20 x 8, R40 walls and floors and R80 ceiling, 60 sq ft of windows and door at R4, 2 residents, very tight construction: at -10F, still need about 3000 btuH; at 0F need about 2500 btuH. Many of the ideas presented are tiny houses, but I don't think any even begin to approach a workable energy self-sufficient solution.

Nothing wrong to dream about a tiny house, on a trailer or not: that is achievable. To make it energy self-sufficient also is achievable, but a lot more is involved than just a tiny house dream.


----------



## Ehouse (Aug 8, 2013)

jebatty said:


> Seems to me that if a person genuinely is interested in an off-grid tiny house that is energy self-sufficient, most of the ideas offered realistically will not work. "Extreme" travel trailers will not work in a cold environment without lots of btu's provided by a fuel source; ditto pontoons, log-style tiny homes, etc. Assume 240 sq ft, 12 x 20 x 8, R40 walls and floors and R80 ceiling, 60 sq ft of windows and door at R4, 2 residents, very tight construction: at -10F, still need about 3000 btuH; at 0F need about 2500 btuH. Many of the ideas presented are tiny houses, but I don't think any even begin to approach a workable energy self-sufficient solution.
> 
> Nothing wrong to dream about a tiny house, on a trailer or not: that is achievable. To make it energy self-sufficient also is achievable, but a lot more is involved than just a tiny house dream.


 

I agree.  I once lived in a 9'x9' tiny house I built for 2 summers while I was building my first real house.  A rain barrel fed by a tarp was my water supply.  I never slept better in my life and loved it.   All bets were off by mid October, however, and I had to get an apt.  All systems need careful consideration for 4 season use, (as you pointed out above, where to poo?).


----------

