# Reset time, now what



## begreen (Apr 2, 2020)

The economies of the world are shutting down as nations deal with the threat of a global pandemic. The question developing is what do we do on restart? For so many years the hue and cry has been that we can' shift from a fossil fuel economy because it would shut down the economy. Well here we are. Now what

Some thoughts:








						“Working Together Is What Humans Are Built to Do”: Social Trust Is Key to Stemming the Coronavirus Crisis
					

A recent U.N. report said that nations “with higher levels of social trust and connections are more resilient in the face of natural disasters and economic crises.”




					www.newyorker.com


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## ABMax24 (Apr 2, 2020)

IMO this slowdown will do the exact opposite. People are not concerned with green energy, they are concerned with energy they can afford. Oil prices are extremely low, as are fuel prices making almost all renewable energy more expensive right now. You also won't see many people switching out their older gasoline cars for more expensive electric cars.

When money is tight people make purchases based almost solely on cost, being the reason low income households are often more obese, because high calorie junk food is cheaper than the more healthy alternative. This will be the same, you will see more gasoline cars sold because the low cost of the fuel and lower cost for the vehicle itself. And forget about people installing solar panels on their homes, I see that disappearing for the next while as it will be considered an unnecessary use of limited funds.

The only way renewable energy will continue to grow in a sizable portion is if the government subsidizes or mandates it. I believe the vast majority of the public would fight this, suggesting the money should instead go to healthcare or restarting the economy.


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## begreen (Apr 2, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> The only way renewable energy will continue to grow in a sizable portion is if the government subsidizes or mandates it. I believe the vast majority of the public would fight this, suggesting the money should instead go to healthcare or restarting the economy.


Yet there is talk right now of bailing out the oil industry, which is already heavily subsidized. If people knew the real costs of our current system they would be able to make a more informed decision. Unfortunately, it is often the lobbyist and campaign donors that are making these decisions. Why continue this?


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## SpaceBus (Apr 3, 2020)

With the bottom falling out of oil and coal the profits will all be in renewables. Perhaps the market will correct itself with ordinary people seeing just how much of a difference a few weeks of minimal fossil fuel usage does. I think now more than ever with folks being able to actually see the night stars (and starlink) we will see a big push to renewables. Finally the masses are seeing how much nicer the air is with less pollution. Even if folks don't believe in climate change, they have now seen first hand the true effects of air pollution on a personal level.


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## woodnomore (Apr 3, 2020)

When were people not able to see the stars? Except for the people that live by the tall buildings.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 3, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> When were people not able to see the stars? Except for the people that live by the tall buildings.


Smog blocks the stars for most people. Seeing five or six stars is hardly seeing the whole night sky lit up.


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## woodnomore (Apr 3, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Smog blocks the stars for most people. Seeing five or six stars is hardly seeing the whole night sky lit up.


 
Most people? I would say most people in major cities but certainly not the rest of the country.


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## begreen (Apr 3, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> Most people? I would say most people in major cities but certainly not the rest of the country.


Roughly 80% of the country's population is urban. And depending on the terrain, there can be a lot of human made smog in rural valleys too if there is a polluting industry there. The smog in Wyoming in some areas is quite bad.
https://www.lung.org/local-content/.../press-releases/wyoming-receives-mixed-grades


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## SpaceBus (Apr 3, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> Most people? I would say most people in major cities but certainly not the rest of the country.


As Begreen said, the majority of all people live in urban areas. Part of why we moved to the edge of the country was less light and air pollution.


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## begreen (Apr 3, 2020)

Then there's cow farts and dust from poor farming practices.


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## Gearhead660 (Apr 3, 2020)

begreen said:


> Then there's cow farts and dust from poor farming practices.


I'll take dairy air over smog any day.


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## begreen (Apr 3, 2020)

Gearhead660 said:


> I'll take dairy air over smog any day.


LOL, I read that as derriere at first, but me too.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 3, 2020)

begreen said:


> Yet there is talk right now of bailing out the oil industry, which is already heavily subsidized. If people knew the real costs of our current system they would be able to make a more informed decision. Unfortunately, it is often the lobbyist and campaign donors that are making these decisions. Why continue this?



You'd have a hard time finding any major industry in North America that is not subsidized in some form or another by the government. So I guess you could pull the subsidies from American producers and import oil from other countries instead, this bodes well for me, Keystone XL is soon to start construction and will put me back to work building facilities to fill the pipeline. So if you want to ship American domestic oil jobs to Canada that is fine by me.

You can limit domestic supply all you want, it won't reduce oil demand unless the cost of oil goes up, but since oil is a global commodity it will just be sourced from cheaper places like the middle east, Canada, or Mexico. The only way to fix this is to make renewables cheaper, the only way this will happen at the current time is to subsidize it, and I for one have better priorities for my tax dollars at the current moment.


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 4, 2020)

You guys are such Debbie Downers.

People aren't flying to Disney or Hawii this summer for vacation.   They might choose to improve their home and get better windows, doors, insulation, etc.  If they cant leave their home, they might as well make the place nicer and more efficient.


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## WinterinWI (Apr 4, 2020)

begreen said:


> Unfortunately, it is often the lobbyist and campaign donors that are making these decisions. Why continue this?



You act like there aren't deals like this happening on the green energy front. Plenty of shady back alley deals on green energy during the previous administration, with rich lobbyists and campaign donors involved.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 4, 2020)

WinterinWI said:


> You act like there aren't deals like this happening on the green energy front. Plenty of shady back alley deals on green energy during the previous administration, with rich lobbyists and campaign donors involved.


Yes, but at least those guys are making the air cleaner while getting rich. The fossil fuel guys are screwing all of us over while taking our money.


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## begreen (Apr 4, 2020)

Actually I am all for ending all subsidies and lobbying too.


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## coaly (Apr 5, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> When were people not able to see the stars? Except for the people that live by the tall buildings.


People in China. They actually have big LED screens of the sun coming up because they can't see the sun anymore leading to depression.




In truth, that sunrise was probably on the screen for less than 10 seconds at a time, as it was part of an ad for tourism in China’s Shandong province. Fact or fiction?
Can they see stars at night?


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## woodnomore (Apr 5, 2020)

People complain of light pollution, other than not being able to see the stars what damage does light pollution do?


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## byQ (Apr 5, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> People complain of light pollution, other than not being able to see the stars what damage does light pollution do?


Well the basis of all life on earth is based on chlorophyll - light striking a plant's green cells. If this is interrupted animal/plant life is also interrupted.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 5, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> People complain of light pollution, other than not being able to see the stars what damage does light pollution do?


It causes issues with wildlife and the light pollution is also a result of photons bouncing off particulate pollution in the atmosphere. Light pollution can also cause issues with scientific instruments and even human biology.


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## woodnomore (Apr 5, 2020)

So the people that require areas to be well lit and complain about light pollution are like the people who drive their car around and complain about climate change. So glad I live out where nothing ever happens.


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## DBoon (Apr 5, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> So the people that require areas to be well lit and complain about light pollution are like the people who drive their car around and complain about climate change.



This is an overly broad generalization that seems to do not much more than answer your own question. I am wondering where you are going with this. It's clear that you don't like urban or near-urban areas - that's fine, it's not for everyone (or for me, for that matter). At the same time, this is where the vast majority of people live and work.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 5, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> So the people that require areas to be well lit and complain about light pollution are like the people who drive their car around and complain about climate change. So glad I live out where nothing ever happens.


I can support an end to environmentally dangerous practices and still drive a car. I didn't choose to be born into this world, so I am forced to adopt to its ways. However, I can make choices in how I spend my money and live my life. Wherever possible I make choices that reflect positively on the environment. I'm working very hard to make my family more self sustaining and less dependent on carbon intensive infrastructure.


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## woodnomore (Apr 6, 2020)

DBoon said:


> This is an overly broad generalization that seems to do not much more than answer your own question. I am wondering where you are going with this. It's clear that you don't like urban or near-urban areas - that's fine, it's not for everyone (or for me, for that matter). At the same time, this is where the vast majority of people live and work.


My point is people complain about light pollution, shut some of the lights off, just that simple.


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 6, 2020)

I know somebody who didnt step on legos in the middle of the night, lol.


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## Highbeam (Apr 6, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> My point is people complain about light pollution, shut some of the lights off, just that simple.



They don’t complain about their own light pollution, they complain about the light from some idiot neighbors that leave flood lights on 24/7 lighting up the world at night. Or being near a city that is constantly lit up. The complainer has no control to shut them off.

If you think it’s not a problem then try sleeping with your bedroom lights on.


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## semipro (Apr 6, 2020)

With all the medical supplies we're going through and the constant improvement of EV technologies and grid renewables I think we're going to want to use oil for plastics rather than transportation. 
The Covid 19 pandemic has disrupted our power grid or transportation - not yet at least.   I don't' think any real changes will come about until supply chains and power supply/distribution are significantly impacted with respect to duration and geographic extent.


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 6, 2020)

Except there is so much oil that has been pumped out of the ground that they dont know what to do with it all.   I read they were looking at storing it in rail cars.


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## JotulOwner (Apr 6, 2020)

byQ said:


> Well the basis of all life on earth is based on chlorophyll - light striking a plant's green cells. If this is interrupted animal/plant life is also interrupted.



Oh S*#T .... I  better shift my focus on hoarding from toilet paper to cannabis  .


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## begreen (Apr 7, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> My point is people complain about light pollution, shut some of the lights off, just that simple.


One can't exactly go the the local street light and turn it off. Nor can one turn off the lights at a Walmart parking lot. Better light design however does help and a lot of the new LED parking lot and street lights do a better job of pointing the light downward. In some parts of Europe the road and bridge lighting only comes on when a car or truck approaches.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 7, 2020)

LED's can actual be worse for light pollution, better reflector design is better regardless of the kind of light, but the blue colors from the LED bulbs are worse for light scattering.









						Skyglow - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Here's an article from Nat Geo on Calgary here is Alberta.








						LED Bulbs Are Making Light Pollution Much Worse
					

Though energy-efficient, bright rays from LEDs are contributing to a host of human and animal problems.




					www.nationalgeographic.com


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## woodnomore (Apr 8, 2020)

begreen said:


> One can't exactly go the the local street light and turn it off. Nor can one turn off the lights at a Walmart parking lot. Better light design however does help and a lot of the new LED parking lot and street lights do a better job of pointing the light downward. In some parts of Europe the road and bridge lighting only comes on when a car or truck approaches.



I certainly was not suggesting that an individual could shut off the street lights or Walmart parking lot. If citizens were truly that harmed by light pollution why not band together and demand changes.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 8, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> I certainly was not suggesting that an individual could shut off the street lights or Walmart parking lot. If citizens were truly that harmed by light pollution why not band together and demand changes.


The whole reason we are talking about this is because I said folks probably will do just what you said.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 8, 2020)

My wife and I think government will be decentralized and with everyone figuring out they can do most work from home cities will become obsolete. Maybe we will return to a more agrarian lifestyle.


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## woodnomore (Apr 8, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> The whole reason we are talking about this is because I said folks probably will do just what you said.



Well folks have been complaining for a goos long time and nothing has been done. Complaining without action is whining.


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## begreen (Apr 8, 2020)

In several municipalities the new regs for lighting take this into consideration. This is usually due to citizen input. All the lighting I am seeing put in by the county at the ferry docks is now downlight only. In some places like Hawaii it's a state law.


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## peakbagger (Apr 8, 2020)

Unfortunately on average a rural dispersed lifestyle consumes more resources per capita than a city dweller. A simple observation is roads and utilities need to be maintained to low density rural areas even though they will rarely be used if everyone works from home.  There were some radical thinkers who popped up during the Peak Oil hysteria about 20 years ago that society would collapse and that the survivors would be rural self sufficient primarily agrarian communities using renewal energy. It was nice dream, to peddle books but it fundamentally meant that the world population would need a radical population collapse.  Of course go back 20 years at the tail end of Earth day and the concept was Arcosanti  https://arcosanti.org/ where people would build megacities surrounded by wilderness.  A wealthy LDS (Mormon) dreamer was buying up land  in Vermont for his version of New City based on LDS beliefs a few years ago based on large communal cities, he got driven out of the state and the project canceled.  www.newVistas.com. 

In a resource constrained world cities versus rural makes a big difference. Of course there are other concepts of dispersed living. Robert Heinlein's short science fiction story The Roads Must Roll  envisions a different layout for society https://*en.wikipedia.org*/wiki/*The_Roads_Must_Roll * 

Since I live in rural area that has had major economic displacement from the closure of close to all the  major employers (3 papermills, one pulp mill and major reduction in staff at the remaining struggling papermill ina botu a 10 year period  we have too much infrastucture and housing for the remaining population. We are 2.5 hours away from the thriving cities along the I 95 corridor. I have had several discussions over the recent years pre CV-19 with respect to what might drive the younger generation away from the cities. My speculation was a high profile dirty nuclear device or a manmade toxin attack on a couple of cities would do it, I was close with the toxin except most indications are its a  natural event that evolved to fit crowded urban settings.  If one looks at the current distribution of cases, rural and poor (unable to do recreational travel) is not a bad thing until the city folks escape into the country.


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## jebatty (Apr 9, 2020)

I recently returned to home in the US from Akumal, Mexico (just before the  Covid stay at home measures were being implemented) and three things that impressed me: 1) the street lighting was LED and directed downward; 2) the lighting was dimmed if no car or person was in proximity to a street lighting fixture; and, 3) that when a person or car approached a lighting fixture it went to bright, returning to dim after passing.

As for residential living in a rural area, which is where I live, our county sheriff advises against dusk to dawn outdoor security lighting,  indicating that from a security perspective, all night lighting does is a very good job of lighting the exterior of a home so that a burglar can easily see where to break in and then see without use of a flashlight to roam the house. The sheriff advocates outdoor security lighting to be on motion detectors so that light is there to assist the homeowner with safety lighting for entering or leaving a home, or other out-building, but then to turn off.


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## WinterinWI (Apr 9, 2020)

begreen said:


> Actually I am all for ending all subsidies and lobbying too.



If that's true, then why do you moan and groan every time there is a gov't funding cut of some green energy subsidy?

Green energy is highly subsidized. Getting rid of all subsidies would probably hurt green energy more than oil.


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## woodnomore (Apr 9, 2020)

WinterinWI said:


> If that's true, then why do you moan and groan every time there is a gov't funding cut of some green energy subsidy?
> 
> Green energy is highly subsidized. Getting rid of all subsidies would probably hurt green energy more than oil.



Just like recycling was.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 9, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> Well folks have been complaining for a goos long time and nothing has been done. Complaining without action is whining.


What action would you propose folks should have done/do about it besides make their voices heard?


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## woodnomore (Apr 9, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> What action would you propose folks should have done/do about it besides make their voices heard?



Individual complaining does nothing.  Organize, start with a petition to present to community leaders. Letters to the editors of the local papers, make the movement known.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 9, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> Individual complaining does nothing.  Organize, start with a petition to present to community leaders. Letters to the editors of the local papers, make the movement known.


Your ignorance on the topic notwithstanding, those things are already happening. The fact that you've heard of light pollution at all is evidence. Again, I think a major outcome of this pandemic is going to be a totally different attitude on pollution. Just because you disagree doesn't mean things aren't happening. There are some people that don't believe in this current pandemic, but that doesn't stop it from happening.


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## woodnomore (Apr 9, 2020)

Ignorance? Turn down the pomposity. Most of what I have heard about light pollution has been people talking about it on internet forums. Not a real news talking point don't see stores on the news or in newspapers. I do not think light pollution would make it in the top 10 of urban dwellers concerns.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 9, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> Ignorance? Turn down the pomposity. Most of what I have heard about light pollution has been people talking about it on internet forums. Not a real news talking point don't see stores on the news or in newspapers. I do not think light pollution would make it in the top 10 of urban dwellers concerns.


You're the one that accosted me about the topic in the first place when you don't know anything about it.....


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## woodnomore (Apr 9, 2020)

I have accosted no one, certainly did not resort to name calling. Did a google search on top 10 concerns of people living in urban areas, light pollution was not mentioned.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 9, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> I have accosted no one, certainly did not resort to name calling. Did a google search on top 10 concerns of people living in urban areas, light pollution was not mentioned.


You did accost me, otherwise this conversation wouldn't be happening. I didn't say light pollution was the largest problem facing people. You brought the focus onto light pollution after I mentioned it in passing. Never once did I claim that light pollution was the largest issue facing people in urban areas, just that it was an issue.

Also, pointing out your ignorance on a topic does not mean I'm name calling. You simply don't have much knowledge on the topic, as in ignorance being defined as not having knowledge on a topic.


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## woodnomore (Apr 9, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> You did accost me, otherwise this conversation wouldn't be happening. I didn't say light pollution was the largest problem facing people. You brought the focus onto light pollution after I mentioned it in passing. Never once did I claim that light pollution was the largest issue facing people in urban areas, just that it was an issue.
> 
> Also, pointing out your ignorance on a topic does not mean I'm name calling. You simply don't have much knowledge on the topic, as in ignorance being defined as not having knowledge on a topic.



Ignorance? How much research have you done since you started complaining. Did a goole search on light pollution and there is not a single mention in any mainstream publication, news source etc. exception is nat geo, and those articles are not current.

Let me guess anyone who's mindset does not align with your prejudices is ignorant.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 9, 2020)

woodnomore said:


> Ignorance? How much research have you done since you started complaining. Did a goole search on light pollution and there is not a single mention in any mainstream publication, news source etc. exception is nat geo, and those articles are not current.
> 
> Let me guess anyone who's mindset does not align with your prejudices is ignorant.



Dude, you are the one hung up on this. All of my replies for the last few days have been about you getting stuck on light pollution. I only brought it up because folks on social media are actually seeing the night sky far more clearly than they have in the past, and it's a direct result of less light and air pollution. If that's not a big deal for you, fine, whatever. I moved out of the city to have a clearer view of the night sky. Where I live the milky way is visible on a clear night.


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2020)

WinterinWI said:


> If that's true, then why do you moan and groan every time there is a gov't funding cut of some green energy subsidy?
> 
> Green energy is highly subsidized. Getting rid of all subsidies would probably hurt green energy more than oil.


I don't think so. The fossil fuel industry gets about $549 billion in the US. Cut that off. We have a glut of oil and gas so let the market determine where it wants new energy to come from.


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## WinterinWI (Apr 9, 2020)

begreen said:


> I don't think so. The fossil fuel industry gets about $549 billion in the US. Cut that off. We have a glut of oil and gas so let the market determine where it wants new energy to come from.



The dollar number you quote could be less than that, or even more depending on your definition of subsidy. I'm sure if you compare to green energy subsidies (apples to apples definition of subsidies) it would be a very large number as well.

You didn't answer my question. If you're for ending all subsidies, why do you moan and groan any time there is a gov't cut of a green energy subsidy?


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## peakbagger (Apr 9, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Dude, you are the one hung up on this. All of my replies for the last few days have been about you getting stuck on light pollution. I only brought it up because folks on social media are actually seeing the night sky far more clearly than they have in the past, and it's a direct result of less light and air pollution. If that's not a big deal for you, fine, whatever. I moved out of the city to have a clearer view of the night sky. Where I live the milky way is visible on a clear night.


Not to imply anyone is a barnyard animal but 




__





						Never Wrestle with a Pig. You Both Get Dirty and the Pig Likes It – Quote Investigator
					






					quoteinvestigator.com


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## ABMax24 (Apr 9, 2020)

begreen said:


> I don't think so. The fossil fuel industry gets about $549 billion in the US. Cut that off. We have a glut of oil and gas so let the market determine where it wants new energy to come from.



I'd really like to see the source of that dollar figure, your number is about 25 times larger than those that I can find.

The fact is fossil energy receives far lower subsidies per energy unit than renewables do. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't pursue renewable energy, but I believe the money is better spent on research and development of new technologies, rather than installing solar panels on johnny tax payers house.


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> I'd really like to see the source of that dollar figure, your number is about 25 times larger than those that I can find.
> 
> The fact is fossil energy receives far lower subsidies per energy unit than renewables do. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't pursue renewable energy, but I believe the money is better spent on research and development of new technologies, rather than installing solar panels on johnny tax payers house.


Oops I was off by 100mil, that should be $649 billion. This number was from the IMF study of global fossil fuel subsidies. 









						United States Spend Ten Times More On Fossil Fuel Subsidies Than Education
					

Amidst reports of a continuing climate crisis, an International Monetary Fund study released last month shows that USD$5.2 trillion was spent globally on fossil fuel subsidies in 2017. The United States has spent more subsidizing fossil fuels in recent years than it has on defense or education.




					www.forbes.com


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## ABMax24 (Apr 9, 2020)

begreen said:


> Oops I was off by 100mil, that should be $649 billion. This number was from the IMF study of global fossil fuel subsidies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hope you actually read the IMF study that this Forbes article quotes. It includes things like the lack of a carbon tax as a subsidy. This really isn't a dollar value the government can divert to renewables because it's money that doesn't exist, so realistically not a subsidy. Now I see why the number is so much larger than most others I have seen.

_It is helpful to distinguish two different notions of fossil fuel subsidies. One is a narrow measure, termed pre-tax subsidies, reflecting differences between the amount consumers actually pay for fuel use and the corresponding opportunity cost of supplying the fuel. In contrast, a broader measure, termed post-tax subsidies, reflects differences between actual consumer fuel prices and how much consumers would pay if prices fully reflected supply costs plus the taxes needed to reflect environmental costs and revenue requirements. The post-tax measure therefore corresponds to the definition of subsidies used in this paper 

By component, underpricing for local air pollution is still the largest source (48 percent in 2015), while that for global warming is similar to earlier estimates (24 percent), followed by broader environmental costs of road fuels (15 percent), undercharging for general consumption taxes (7 percent) and for supply costs (7 percent). Energy pricing reform therefore remains largely in countries own interest, given that about three quarters of the benefits are local. _


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2020)

As it should be. The true cost of fossil fuel is rarely accounted for, even before externalities. Here are some of the hidden costs.




__





						Fact Sheet | Fossil Fuel Subsidies: A Closer Look at Tax Breaks and Societal Costs (2019) | White Papers | EESI
					






					www.eesi.org


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## ABMax24 (Apr 9, 2020)

We have very different definitions of the word subsidy then. Failing to charge a carbon tax is not a subsidy, even if it was a subsidy (which it isn't) then it would be a subsidy to the consumer not the producer.

Most people don't have a clue about what happens when a carbon tax is imposed, the cost of everything goes up, as everything is either made using fossil energy and/or transported with it. It really hurts the lower class as they don't have enough leftover income to absorb these costs. Or you could do like Canada and charge the carbon tax and then just give it back at year end tax time, which really solves nothing but to satisfy "green thinking" zeolots.


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## P51mustang (Apr 10, 2020)

Regarding subsidies for energy, take a look at the IEA data from the past several years and you'll see that fossil fuels still receive many billions in subsidies worldwide and significantly more than renewables.  

And their data, as far as I can tell with a quick review,  doesn't include the huge military expenditures that the mostly western powers spend securing fossil fuel deposits and transportation routes out of places like the Middle East, South America, Central Asia, Africa, Indonesia, etc....Just the cost for securing the Persian Gulf alone for the past 50 years is astronomical.  All payed for by the American tax payer.  It's partly why the US Navy is as large and expensive as it is.....To secure trade routes the world over.  

Now, I'm not suggesting these expenditures aren't without benefit, especially years ago before renewable technology was as advanced as it is now and safe and secure trades routes are important for goods well beyond just fossil fuels.  But these are massive subsidies that continue to cost tax payers huge amounts of money.  

Some suggest we just need to shift the balance as we shift away from fossil fuels.  Continue some level of subsidy for carbon based energy, but swing the pendulum more toward renewables.  Of course everything is up in the air at the moment.  But when we return to a functioning economy, one way to rev it up would be a huge infrastructure investment in renewable energies.  S

Starting with a "Smart" 21st century electric grid incorporating mini-grids; advanced battery storage; solar build outs on both an industrial and residential scale; industrial and residential wind installations; expanded electrical automobile subsidies to both manufactures and purchasers; subsidies for affordable net zero housing; subsidies for energy efficient mini-split HVAC systems and geo-thermal....The list is endless.


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## Highbeam (Apr 10, 2020)

I don’t think urban people have a problem with light pollution. They are the problem. They want more street lights, taller buildings with windows blasting light, more roads full of headlights. They live in the city because they like this stuff. 

It’s those of us near the urban areas that suffer from their spilling light pollution. As you continue farther away to rural areas the light pollution is adequately diluted to the point of non existence. 

Besides , top ten worries of urban people will be filled with critical problems like being randomly stabbed in the neck.


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2020)

Light pollution has little to do with this thread. The quarantine has not affected this much I think. Air pollution however, is quite different. Many people are having views they have not seen in their lifetimes with the shutdown. 








						Himalayas Visible for First Time in 30 Years From Some Parts of India as Lockdown Sees Drop in Pollution
					

For many residents, the sight is something which they have never witnessed in their entire lives.




					themindunleashed.com


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## SpaceBus (Apr 11, 2020)

begreen said:


> Light pollution has little to do with this thread. The quarantine has not affected this much I think. Air pollution however, is quite different. Many people are having views they have not seen in their lifetimes with the shutdown.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I brought up light pollution because it has been reduced from less traffic, less business lights on, and better air quality. Folks have been seeing so much activity in the night sky they were worried at first that something was wrong. My friends back in NC report seeing the night sky more clearly than they ever have before.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 11, 2020)

For those interested here is a pretty cool app to see particulate levels world wide. If you use the menus in the bottom left you can also see things like wind, temperature, ocean currents, atmospheric pollution etc.









						earth :: a global map of wind, weather, and ocean conditions
					

See current wind, weather, ocean, and pollution conditions, as forecast by supercomputers, on an interactive animated map. Updated every three hours.




					earth.nullschool.net


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## woodnomore (Apr 11, 2020)

Not hung up on it but find it amusing that people act like they are being harmed. During the virus many large buildings and stadiums in urban areas are lighting up their facilities in tribute to first responders. Many of the people that complain about light pollution need lighting for safety. I live in the country and and look to the glow of city lights on the horizon and it is a reminder that I would never want to be part of that. I have to go to work in the suburbs and drive to the airport to fly for work. The congestion, the smell, and general rudeness of the city is repugnant. People complaining about light pollution, really you live in a congested place with crime, violence, and low quality of life and complain about the night sky being filled with lights. Just like the climate change if you complain about light pollution and you leave the porch light on you are part of the problem you are complaining about.

Have never heard of a cause of death listed as light pollution, just saying. We live in a world with a victim mentality, most people are the cause of their own suffering.


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## begreen (Apr 11, 2020)

Light pollution is way off topic. 

Back to the question. Once things restart, what to do we return to? The old normal, or do we redefine who we are and what we want from our society?


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## WinterinWI (Apr 15, 2020)

begreen said:


> Light pollution is way off topic.
> 
> Back to the question. Once things restart, what to do we return to? The old normal, or do we redefine who we are and what we want from our society?



I hear Biden has a lot of new and fresh ideas.


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## andym (Apr 15, 2020)

I think most people are quite eagerto jump back into the 'old normal'. For the average person not much will have changed. Hopefully.


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## begreen (Apr 15, 2020)

I think a great deal will have changed. Social distancing will continue. Many are going to feel uncomfortable taking mass transit which is going to add traffic load and pollution. And this is just one example.


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## ABMax24 (Apr 15, 2020)

Many are putting their own renewable projects on hold. My parents were looking at doing a ground mount solar install at their house, not now with the financial uncertainty. We were also looking at trading in our daily driver for a plug in hybrid SUV (Toyota Rav4 Prime) also not considering that anymore.


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## begreen (Apr 15, 2020)

That's understandable with the amount of uncertainty currently in the air.


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## semipro (Apr 16, 2020)

Actually, the uncertainty has strengthened our resolve to ensure our own personal resilience.  We've invested in solar PV and an electric vehicle powered by it.  We can drive and live at home even if FF supplies are cut or the grid goes down.  Our gardening plans have expanded and I've resolved to work from home more.  I think all these things will have a positive environmental impact.  
I believe others may seek similar paths.  
I hope also that personal distancing and the positive environmental impacts of COVID 19 related stay home restrictions will lead others to realize that human population growth is just not sustainable, for the good of the ecosystem and for ourselves as a species.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 16, 2020)

semipro said:


> Actually, the uncertainty has strengthened our resolve to ensure our own personal resilience.  We've invested in solar PV and an electric vehicle powered by it.  We can drive and live at home even if FF supplies are cut or the grid goes down.  Our gardening plans have expanded and I've resolved to work from home more.  I think all these things will have a positive environmental impact.
> I believe others may seek similar paths.
> I hope also that personal distancing and the positive environmental impacts of COVID 19 related stay home restrictions will lead others to realize that human population growth is just not sustainable, for the good of the ecosystem and for ourselves as a species.


Agreed. I think travel will drop across the board. Where will folks go when they can't be close to each other? I think demand for cheap disposable consumer goods will also go down. Since we live on the edge of nothing we are doubling down our efforts to be grid independent.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2020)

semipro said:


> Actually, the uncertainty has strengthened our resolve to ensure our own personal resilience.  We've invested in solar PV and an electric vehicle powered by it.  We can drive and live at home even if FF supplies are cut or the grid goes down.  Our gardening plans have expanded and I've resolved to work from home more.  I think all these things will have a positive environmental impact.
> I believe others may seek similar paths.
> I hope also that personal distancing and the positive environmental impacts of COVID 19 related stay home restrictions will lead others to realize that human population growth is just not sustainable, for the good of the ecosystem and for ourselves as a species.


Is your solar system islanded? What battery backup system does it have?


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## semipro (Apr 16, 2020)

begreen said:


> Is your solar system islanded? What battery backup system does it have?


It's up and running. Most of the power produced now is going to the grid. We're waiting on a county inspection before we net meter. COVID 19 is creating some challenges there. Inspectors aren't allowed to enter occupied structures.  I'll install the batteries after inspection,, primarily for backup power. 
I've been driving our EV that is charged when we have sunlight -- an extremely satisfying feeling.


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## peakbagger (Apr 16, 2020)

I just got a spare 6 KW grid tied inverter left over from Solar City. SC was taken over by Tesla and this inverter was branded as Solar City so the third party manufacturer dumped a bunch of them on the market. A bonus is that its actually a hybrid inverter ready for a high voltage battery pack to be hooked up to it. It was designed for high voltage DC version of the Powerwall battery but I think an LG will also fit it. It can island and can also export the battery if the right permissions are available. 

I am keeping an eye on Tesla forums to see if anyone figures out how to hook it to an old EV battery. My utility does nor offer incentives for battery dispatch but one of the other utilities in the state does so I only need enough battery to buffer the PV versus long term storage. Mass offers some very generous incentives for battery dispatch that effectively pays for about half the battery over a few years.  I had two large institutional projects that got money up front for flow batteries but both went by the wayside for various reasons but hope to get a Lithium battery installed in a current project to get some hands on experience.


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## begreen (Apr 18, 2020)

This is a worthwhile read as we approach the 50th anniversary of Earth Day. We have much to learn.
https://www.biographic.com/learning-the-lessons-of-the-planet/


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## WinterinWI (Apr 18, 2020)

begreen said:


> This is a worthwhile read as we approach the 50th anniversary of Earth Day. We have much to learn.
> https://www.biographic.com/learning-the-lessons-of-the-planet/



Good evening political activist & lobbyist @begreen, how are you tonight?


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## begreen (Apr 18, 2020)

Doing well, green room troll & skeptic, hope you are too.


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## WinterinWI (Apr 18, 2020)

begreen said:


> Doing well, green room troll & skeptic, hope you are too.



Doing well also, thanks.


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## semipro (Apr 27, 2020)

It occurred to me this morning that this lull in human activity has the potential to provide us with more robust evidence of our impacts on the environment, and specifically global climate change, in the same way that 9-11 did.   When most aircraft were grounded after the 9-11 attacks, global dimming decreased measurably.  This provided correlation/causation for the impacts of aircraft contrails. 
Unlike the immediate effect seen then, the COVID 19 event may not last long enough to help strengthen the link between human activities and anthropogenic climate change.  It may appear as "weather" rather than "climate".


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## begreen (Apr 27, 2020)

Positive impacts are showing up all around the planet on many different levels.








						On Earth Day 2020, coronavirus shutdowns are a gift to the environment
					

With so many humans staying at home to avoid coronavirus, the air is cleaner, the water is clearer and animals are growing bold.




					www.cnet.com
				












						Impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the environment - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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