# XXV may have to go



## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Me again, the guy with the messy XXV full of black gunk a few weeks back.  2 weeks prior to that event we had a CO alarm go off in the hallway leading to the masterbedroom, strangely the one next to the stove did not alarm, none of the 4 downstairs either, we made the assumption we had a faulty detector.  I invested into a Reed CO180 hand detector, this way I can walk around and look to see if we have a source somewhere.  Today I decide to take samplings, I go in the living room where the XXV is and I felt somewhat weird, I observed a reading of 27ppm up at about 7 feet, naturally panic sets in and we open doors and windows to clear the room and all is fine.  The wife ordered the XXV shutdown and wants it gone!!  She does however trust the P61A.  On all 3 events we had high winds and that stove is on the east wall, the 61A is on the west wall.  Can the wind overcome the stove? could I have some kind of leak in the structure of the stove?  I'm sure questions will come regarding the venting, I have a 24" through the wall, into a Tee, 60" up then a spout. The oak intake is next to the Tee and its Duravent PVP.  In hindsight, should have got a P43, the P series is much simpler in design as it is a all welded construction versus the XXV a bolted and screwed construction meaning more gaskets.  Calling the dealer in the morning, dont know where to look now, pending a good outcome the sale of more pellets for next year will hinge in balance.


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## Bioburner (Feb 15, 2015)

I was watching smoke from a stove go up to the eves of the house in some bad winds couple days ago and could not help to think that some of that may want to enter. Shut that stove down till things changed. Nice to have more than one stove and not all on one wall.


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## GeHmTS (Feb 15, 2015)

27ppm sounds like its in the permissible level range according to OSHA.  CO has the same density as air, so it will rise like air also.  That's why it's not detected where the stove is located.  Needless to say, if you can't reduce the level, get rid of the stove because it's not worth a life or two, or three.

Have you put the detector around the stove and vent to see where CO is emitting?


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

GeHmTS said:


> 27ppm sounds like its in the permissible level range according to OSHA.  CO has the same density as air, so it will rise like air also.  That's why it's not detected where the stove is located.  Needless to say, if you can't reduce the level, get rid of the stove because it's not worth a life or two, or three.
> 
> Have you put the detector around the stove and vent to see where CO is emitting?



^^^ Many times and not detected anything, I'm thinking the wind is overcoming the fans, swells and leaks, I welcome people with experience to correct me.  So what do we do when we go for the day?  come home to dead pets? It's not like it's a botch install, the inspector wrote that I met and exceeded on the WETT certificate.  I'm furious and this thing gotta go.


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## GeHmTS (Feb 15, 2015)

Well again, CO is like air.  So whatever air does, CO will do.  Does your exhaust go up a chimney that's in the interior of your home?  Are you using a liner or anything?


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

GeHmTS said:


> Well again, CO is like air.  So whatever air does, CO will do.  Does your exhaust go up a chimney that's in the interior of your home?  Are you using a liner or anything?


90% of the vent is outside, inside is the collar to the stove and about 10 inches of the 24" that goes through the timble.


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## Bioburner (Feb 15, 2015)

GeHmTS said:


> Well again, CO is like air.  So whatever air does, CO will do.  Does your exhaust go up a chimney that's in the interior of your home?  Are you using a liner or anything?


His first post is very descriptive of the venting.


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## GeHmTS (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm sure others here will be able to help you.  Good luck and keep us posted.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 15, 2015)

If you are venting into the wind without a proper end cap or wind break you can have things go down hill in the burn department.  That can cause problems.all the way up to snuffing the stove out due to lack of vacuum in the firebox. Which should lead to a Harman 6 blink error and the stove shutting down.

Is there anything else in  the house that burns?   Something that vents outside and the vent could be blocked or partially blocked.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> If you are venting into the wind without a proper end cap or wind break you can have things go down hill in the burn department.  That can cause problems.all the way up to snuffing the stove out due to lack of vacuum in the firebox. Which should lead to a Harman 6 blink error and the stove shutting down.
> 
> Is there anything else in  the house that burns?   Something that vents outside and the vent could be blocked or partially blocked.



I have a P61A that burns beautifully on the opposing wall, west side.  The vent is clean as a whistle, as it was 2 weeks ago when I got the bad burn and gummed up the stove.  No 6 blinks.  All that is different from 2 weeks ago is the draft adjustment from -.75 to -.45, according to the Harman instructions the draft was way off.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 15, 2015)

You should be considering everything in and around your house that burns as a possible source of that CO.   Gas fired hot water heaters, oil fired boilers, gas cooking stoves, gas dryers, vehicles running in the yard near the house.

I was just telling you what can happen if you vent into the wind without taking it into consideration.  

In the non Harman world you get #2 shutdowns or if not severe enough a reduction in pellet delivery to the burn pot.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> You should be considering everything in and around your house that burns as a possible source of that CO.   Gas fired hot water heaters, oil fired boilers, gas cooking stoves, gas dryers, vehicles running in the yard near the house.
> 
> I was just telling you what can happen if you vent into the wind without taking it into consideration.
> 
> In the non Harman world you get #2 shutdowns or if not severe enough a reduction in pellet delivery to the burn pot.



The only other possible source of CO is the P61A, all checked, 0PPM.  Checked, double checked, triple checked.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 15, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> The only other possible source of CO is the P61A, all checked, 0PPM.  Checked, double checked, triple checked.



You also said there was nada around the XXV.  Have you verified that you got things sealed on the outside of the vent where it passes through the thimble?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 15, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> ^^^ Many times and not detected anything, I'm thinking the wind is overcoming the fans, swells and leaks, I welcome people with experience to correct me.



And around the thimble to the house.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> And around the thimble to the house.


Yes all caulked with black silicone.


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## GeHmTS (Feb 15, 2015)

Maybe you should start to do some troubleshooting.  Turn on the XXV, turn off the P61 and go to the same place last time you got a 27ppm reading before.  If you don't notice anything, then turn off the XXV, turn on another appliance and repeat.  Continue to do this until one of the appliances gives you the 27ppm again.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 15, 2015)

Can you provide pictures of the outside where the vents for each stove are?

What is the low temperature to which that brand of silicone is good to.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 15, 2015)

See if your local FD offers CO level testing.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 15, 2015)

Seeing that you are in the cold country do you have a heat recovery vent?


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Seeing that you are in the cold country do you have a heat recovery vent?


I assume you mean HRV?(Heat Recovery Ventilation) yes I have one as described in my sig.  Here they are known under various names such as Venmar, Vanee, Lifebreath etc.  they circulate the air in the home for like 40 min, bring in fresh air for 20, and recuperate the warm house air through a plastic or aluminium exchanger.  For my house, this system intakes and ejects to the south.  1 Pellet stove to the east and 1 pellet stove to the west, doubt the HRV can suck in the CO.


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## bbfarm (Feb 15, 2015)

Do you have an OAK?  Is the wind blowing the vent exhaust into the OAK?


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Can you provide pictures of the outside where the vents for each stove are?
> 
> What is the low temperature to which that brand of silicone is good to.



-85F


bbfarm said:


> Do you have an OAK?  Is the wind blowing the vent exhaust into the OAK?



OAK on both yes.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Can you provide pictures of the outside where the vents for each stove are?
> 
> What is the low temperature to which that brand of silicone is good to.



-85F

Here are the pics


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## GeHmTS (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm no expert on this, but your setup looks odd.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

GeHmTS said:


> I'm no expert on this, but your setup looks odd.



LOL...then we'll let an expert comment on it I guess, unless you can explain odd


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## moey (Feb 15, 2015)

What is the distance between the vent top and the eaves? It looks close but its hard to tell.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

moey said:


> What is the distance between the vent top and the eaves? It looks close but its hard to tell.



18 inches give or take


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## Papelletman (Feb 15, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> -85F
> 
> Here are the pics



Which on is the xxv?


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## Luv2burnPellets (Feb 15, 2015)

Could the exhaust escape into the overhead roof venting and you have a ceiling fan possibly sucking in the fumes from the attic somehow, even drawing the fumes into the roof vent?


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Papelletman said:


> Which on is the xxv?


Pic #1, longest pipe of the 2, OAK is in the timble.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Luv2burnPellets said:


> Could the exhaust escape into the overhead roof venting and you have a ceiling fan possibly sucking in the fumes from the attic somehow, even drawing the fumes into the roof vent?


If fumes enter the attic space and some might, I doubt they stay there long as I have a roof vent which sucks out everything on a continual basis.


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## gfreek (Feb 15, 2015)

What no snow ...??   ..What if you extended it so it's just past the eave?? As a test.. I'd say lower it but looks like one  piece of vent pipe..


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## Luv2burnPellets (Feb 15, 2015)

But perhaps the ceiling fan creates more suction than the natural drafting out the roof cap?  Try shutting off the fan and check with your meter.


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## Bioburner (Feb 15, 2015)

I think I will stick by my first post on the thread. More so after seeing the first picture. I would consider the ventilating sofits like  windows. Termination is always to be away from structure. House envelopes can be tricky under weather extremes.
Good luck.


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## Papelletman (Feb 15, 2015)

I am no expert but that does seem close to the eve, maybe extend it as suggested, or go through it and above the roof.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 15, 2015)

Odd in the termination isn't directly away from the house and given the propensity for CO to rise.

I'd want to get that termination down several feet from the soffit, your attic vent system may qualify as either J or K on page 8 of the XXV manual depending on if it is powered or not.

ETA: No one here is an expert, whatever that is.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Odd in the termination isn't directly away from the house and given the propensity for CO to rise.
> 
> I'd want to get that termination down several feet from the sofit, your attic vent system may qualify as either J or K on page 8 of the XXV manual depending on if it is powered or not.



1) I swivelled the termination that way to stop the wind to force itself into the pipe.

2) J or K? really?  not D & E?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 15, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> 1) I swivelled the termination that way to stop the wind to force itself into the pipe.
> 
> 2) J or K? really?  not D & E?




It will depend upon what the code says up that way as to how that attic ventilation system is classified.  

If you are trying to stop the wind from being forced into the pipe you need to find a true jet cap as it uses the wind to assist in removing the exhaust.  

This is what I was talking about in my first post.  Venting into the wind needs to be planned for.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> jet c



Jet cap?  Duravent only makes what you see in the pic, unless you know something I dont.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 15, 2015)

Page 122 in http://www.duravent.com/docs/product/L820_PVP_W.pdf


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Page 122 in http://www.duravent.com/docs/product/L820_PVP_W.pdf


I see it, you have a newer catalog, thanks.

Well I'm tired, my electric heaters on the main floor are printing money for Hydro One, at least they are very safe.  Will see what the dealer says tomorrow.


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## moey (Feb 15, 2015)

My vote is for the air going into the eaves and back into the house. Put a CO detector in the attic and see if it goes off. Better yet fix it and see if you still have a CO problem.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 15, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> I see it, you have a newer catalog, thanks.
> 
> Well I'm tired, my electric heaters on the main floor are printing money for Hydro One, at least they are very safe.  Will see what the dealer says tomorrow.



I just want to help get the situation all good and safe.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 15, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> I just want to help get the situation all good and safe.


I'm greatful for everything dont get me wrong, the head hurts, too much thinking for one day

Will revisit the whole thing tomorrow, might swap the P61A vertical portion with the XXV, it is shorter.


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## moey (Feb 15, 2015)

Be safe CO is not something you want to mess with. Happy your leaving it off for now..


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## bcarton (Feb 15, 2015)

CO coming in through your soffit vent is a real strong possibility.


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## MarkF48 (Feb 15, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> I have a P61A that burns beautifully on the opposing wall, west side.  The vent is clean as a whistle, as it was 2 weeks ago when I got the bad burn and gummed up the stove.  No 6 blinks.  All that is different from 2 weeks ago is the draft adjustment from -.75 to -.45, according to the Harman instructions the draft was way off.


I've got an XXV and I've thought about getting a meter and doing the draft test, but as I've not had any issues I've been holding off. I am vented differently that you. I'm curious when you did the draft test what you got for a high draft reading, was it within the -.50 to -.60 and then shift to -.35 to -.45 as indicated in the manual excerpt below?

I kind of would think a "cap" of sorts on the end of the vent to block direct wind would help such as in this link 
http://static.hardwarestore.com/media/product/632148_front500.jpg
and would be fairly easy to fabricate and try.


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## Gavin641774 (Feb 15, 2015)

Proper termination cap would be a start,strong NW wind when you done the readings?By the way the snow has drifted I would say blowing back into the flue.Reduce length of flue and vent away from soffit.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 16, 2015)

MarkF48 said:


> I've got an XXV and I've thought about getting a meter and doing the draft test, but as I've not had any issues I've been holding off. I am vented differently that you. I'm curious when you did the draft test what you got for a high draft reading, was it within the -.50 to -.60 and then shift to -.35 to -.45 as indicated in the manual excerpt below?
> 
> I kind of would think a "cap" of sorts on the end of the vent to block direct wind would help such as in this link
> http://static.hardwarestore.com/media/product/632148_front500.jpg
> ...



No, it was -.75 as I explained in my OP.  The book says normal is -.50 to -.60 during the first minute on high draft, not me, it was -.75 and did not change down on low.  I brought it down to -.45 by adjusting the pot, which slowed down the exhaust motor.

The cap in the picture is not something I can get from Duravent, not crazy about the idea of modifying things.


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## boomhour (Feb 16, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> 18 inches give or take



A 24” / 61 cm Above lawns, top of plants, wood or any other combustible materials.
A 12” / 30.5 cm Above non-combustible surface such as cement and gravel.
B 48” / 122 cm From beside/below any door or window that may be opened.
C 12” / 30.5 cm From above any door or window that may be opened.
D 24” / 61 cm To any adjacent building, fences and protruding parts of the structure.
*E 24” / 61 cm Below any eaves or roof overhang.*
F 12” / 30.5 cm To outside corner.
G 12” / 30.5 cm To inside corner, combustible wall (vertical & horizontal terminations).
H 36” / 91.5 cm To each side of center line extended above natural gas or propane meter/regulator
assembly or mechanical vent within a height of 4.5 m above the meter/
regulator assembly.
I 36” / 91.5 cm From any forced air intake of other appliance.
J 12” / 30.5 cm Clearance to non-mechanical air supply inlet to building or combustion air
inlet to any appliance.
K 24” / 61cm Clearance above roof line for vertical termination

These are specs from my manual which puts you a little close with the right wind direction. Our gas fireplace terminates at 15'' below the soffit and was not allowed to run until a non-porous section was installed 6 ft either side of center.

Would strongly recommend giving this a try.



Gavin641774 said:


> .Reduce length of flue and vent away from soffit.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 17, 2015)

Tech will be here Thursday morning...keep you posted on the outcome.


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## Jim H. (Feb 18, 2015)

good luck


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## bogieb (Feb 18, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> Tech will be here Thursday morning...keep you posted on the outcome.



We look forward to your report.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 18, 2015)

It will surely be an interesting day, to keep or not to keep, I'm receiving all kinds of emails to buy it, actually all I need to do is say yes to one of them.  I need a 100 % guarantee that whatever gets done to the venting is a sure bet, "let's see if this and that will work" wont cut it.


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## RealGene (Feb 19, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> LOL...then we'll let an expert comment on it I guess, unless you can explain odd


The XXV appears to be venting directly under perforated soffit vents.  Try taking a CO reading in the attic space above those soffits.


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## Ambient (Feb 19, 2015)

bogieb said:


> We look forward to your report.



Not only am I looking at this model for purchase, but we have some "Trade Winds" to contend with here.  I was reading this thread yesterday and I also am looking forward to your report.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 19, 2015)

Tech did not make it due to adverse road conditions, I lost my morning waiting, the stove is sold!!  I'm done with this.


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## Jim H. (Feb 19, 2015)

Sorry to hear that.  From what I have seen I tend to agree that the exhaust is way to close to the soffits.  Would be interesting to see if you get another stove and do nothing else what your results would be?  I love mine....has been a tank so far. Please keep us posted.  Good luck.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 19, 2015)

Jim H. said:


> Sorry to hear that.  From what I have seen I tend to agree that the exhaust is way to close to the soffits.  Would be interesting to see if you get another stove and do nothing else what your results would be?  I love mine....has been a tank so far. Please keep us posted.  Good luck.



We are going gas on that side of the house.  The P61A will be my workhorse, a new gas furnace is coming in the spring, the air handler with it's ECM motor will be on 24/7 and distribute the heat evenly, the furnace guy is taking all this in consideration and knows his stuff.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 21, 2015)

Got up this morning, the wife says it's a dam shame, can't agree more.  We drove to Ottawa, while the Mrs was getting her massage I went to a fireplace store, we talked pellet stove(my XXV) and we talked gas stove, the guys there with 30 some years experience convinces me to lower my exhaust to 1 24 inch section and the new Duravent jet cap, this now gives me a whopping 58 1/2 inches to the soffit.  So now I put the stove in test mode, plug in the magnehelic gauge, wham, off the scale on the initial high and then -.80 at low speed, the problem, cant go any lower.  Why such a drastic difference?  What do I do? BTW I did not start the stove.


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## Bioburner (Feb 21, 2015)

Jet cap helped the draft.
When I tried to adjust a new board the fan was able to go into a pulse mode it got so low so it's interesting you can't get the fan lower


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

Oh well.


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## Luv2burnPellets (Feb 21, 2015)

I think you can live with -.8 if that is as low as it can get, which is pretty close to the recommended setting.  Fire it up!


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## railfanron (Feb 21, 2015)

I would fire up the stove with the fan speed set around the center of the travel and after the stove is fired up I would drop the fan trim a little at a time, waiting a few minutes for things to stabilize before making another adjustment, until no pellets popcorn out of the firepot.
Ron


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## canuck_22 (Feb 21, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Oh well.



LOL..."Oh well"...that's it?


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## Bioburner (Feb 21, 2015)

Think he's referring to your posting late Thursday,


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

Remember the first item in my PM to you?


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## canuck_22 (Feb 21, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> Think he's referring to your posting late Thursday,


LOL...I know, it's just that the lady is upset we are taking a bath for 2k, last minute ditch effort on my part.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> Think he's referring to your posting late Thursday,



Not really Bioburner.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 21, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Remember the first item in my PM to you?


Just revisited that, are you are talking about the very first thing you wrote?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> Just revisited that, are you talking the very first thing you said?  you have 3-4 things in that PM




Actually everything in the PM.  

But this speaks directly to your original reason for this post 



SmokeyTheBear said:


> You have to comply with the natural laws in order to be safe and basically venting below any intake system is a cause for concern.
> In your case the wind is going to send the exhaust into that soffit if it comes from the right direction and it will not do much in the way of reducing the concentration of items in the exhaust due to the closeness. What happens after that is going to depend upon the various systems inside the house, the vent is going to try to remove it but the rate may not get enough of it fast enough to prevent whatever is inside the house from pulling some into the house.
> You need to get that venting pointed away from the house and properly capped at the very least so less exhaust finds its way into the attic. Further down from the soffit also allows the concentration of the exhaust to be reduced because of mixing with the air.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 21, 2015)

Ok, well as I said, I'm now 581/2 below the soffit, the jet cap apparently(according to duravent) blows the flue gases further away, cant be a bad thing.  My only concern at this point before I fire it back up is the lack of adjustement on the draft, I'll be dumping lot's heat outside, the pipe will be hot I guest.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

Didn't you sell that stove?


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## canuck_22 (Feb 21, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Didn't you sell that stove?


Only if I say yes, deal.  He's waiting for my phone call, he wants me to hold it for him.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> Only if I say yes, deal.  He's waiting for my phone call, he wants me to hold it for him.



Ok, you said it was sold, I couldn't figure out wth you were playing with it for.  Trust me that new venting system should also help with the 6 blink stuff.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 21, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Ok, you said it was sold, I couldn't figure out wth you were playing with it for.  Trust me that new venting system should also help with the 6 blink stuff.


Never got 6 blinks


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> Never got 6 blinks



You were headed there with the gummies.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 21, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> You were headed there with the gummies.


Ahhh ok get it, so I fire that puppy up as is tomorrow?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> Ahhh ok get it, so I fire that puppy up as is tomorrow?



Whenever you want and put that CO meter all over the place including the soffit area, the attic, the exhaust stream just away from the vent, up high, down low, in between in every room in the house.  Just so the missus is happy.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 21, 2015)

I'm looking at the manual, outside air is 3 inches, the dealer supplied me with a thimble with a 2 inch outside air, it is reduced at the stove with a reducer, is the stove being starved somehow?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> I'm looking at the manual, outside air is 3 inches, the dealer supplied me with a thimble with a 2 inch outside air, it is reduced at the stove with a reducer, is the stove being starved somehow?



What maker and number?  An OAK line is just like a vent it should not reduce to a diameter smaller than the intake on the stove.   It may be possible to get away with even that if the run is very short and straight.

ETA: I am beginning to have a very strong urge to rant, best I take a break.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 21, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> What maker and number?  An OAK line is just like a vent it should not reduce to a diameter smaller than the intake on the stove.   It may be possible to get away with even that if the run is very short and straight.


He gave me Duravent 4PVP-WTI, looking at the catalog he should have given me 4PVP-WTI3.  But again when I mentioned it to him, he said bah that wont matter...grrr


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## canuck_22 (Feb 21, 2015)

I'll draft test it with no oak tomorrow, I'm curious now, good night all I'm beat.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 21, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> He gave me Duravent 4PVP-WTI, looking at the catalog he should have given me 4PVP-WTI3.  But again when I mentioned it to him, he said bah that wont matter...grrr



We can give it a whirl and see what falls out before you go after his hind end.  I'd go for his hind end anyway.

ETA: Tomorrow


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## Gavin641774 (Feb 22, 2015)

That's what everyone was telling you from the get go,shorter flue and proper jet cap,in just my opinion jet cap made the difference,


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

Gavin641774 said:


> That's what everyone was telling you from the get go,shorter flue and proper jet cap,in just my opinion jet cap made the difference,



But if a jet cap changes everything and nullifies any adjustment, no one sees a problem with that?

BTW, just got up, testing soon


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## bogieb (Feb 22, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> Got up this morning, the wife says it's a dam shame, can't agree more.  We drove to Ottawa, while the Mrs was getting her massage I went to a fireplace store, we talked pellet stove(my XXV) and we talked gas stove, the guys there with 30 some years experience convinces me to lower my exhaust to 1 24 inch section and the new Duravent jet cap, this now gives me a whopping 58 1/2 inches to the soffit.  So now I put the stove in test mode, plug in the magnehelic gauge, wham, off the scale on the initial high and then -.80 at low speed, the problem, cant go any lower.  Why such a drastic difference?  What do I do? BTW I did not start the stove.



I'm sorry, but I just have to say that several people told you to lower your exhaust and you seemed to get all upset that people wouldn't agree that it was the stove. Now a stranger (yes, I know we are strangers here, but we also have a lot of cumulative experience - especially people like Smoky - and we are pretty straight shooter's) tells you to lower the exhaust and BAM, you are all in to try it. Just insulted the heck out of all those people who took their time to try to help you from this forum - and more importantly put your family at risk while you tried other things.

Hope this solves your issues for you - haven't read to the end yet, because I haven't had enough coffee and it has made me really crabby too early in the morning before I go deal with the snow.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

bogieb said:


> I'm sorry, but I just have to say that several people told you to lower your exhaust and you seemed to get all upset that people wouldn't agree that it was the stove. Now a stranger (yes, I know we are strangers here, but we also have a lot of cumulative experience - especially people like Smoky - and we are pretty straight shooter's) tells you to lower the exhaust and BAM, you are all in to try it. Just insulted the heck out of all those people who took their time to try to help you from this forum - and more importantly put your family at risk while you tried other things.
> 
> Hope this solves your issues for you - haven't read to the end yet, because I haven't had enough coffee and it has made me really crabby too early in the morning before I go deal with the snow.



Sorry if you think I insulted people here, you read in my post that I went to Ottawa to talk to a pro maybe because I dont believe you guys here, *not so*, I went there to buy all that I need to go all the way up above the roof line with the proper termination cap. Instead of just selling to me, he persuaded me to lower it and try it, I'm sure it will work today but when we get a nasty NE wind again I'm worried the problem may return, hence my reason for considering going all the way up.


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## gfreek (Feb 22, 2015)

Thanks for the updates.  Looking forward to see if this issue is resolved..


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

Hey folks he had every reason to consult with a professional.  

He wanted to be sure his next attempt was going to work.  

I have less respect for the folks he has been dealing with at the stove store place and with the inspector not at least reading him the riot act on venting below an air intake.  

canuck_22 is at least listening and more than to just us.  We had a discussion about going up amongst other things.  I don't feel insulted at all.

I was only sorry that we wouldn't be able to see the stove running just fine and safely when he said he had the stove sold.


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## Ambient (Feb 22, 2015)

Hey I'm learning.


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## moey (Feb 22, 2015)

I think that extra distance will solve your problem.


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## Bioburner (Feb 22, 2015)

It's hard to beat boots on the ground in a lot of stove issues. It was unfortunate that those boots had some holes in them in that they never took into account the venting being to close to eves and the predominate winds of the area. Had the dealer ever tested the draft? Possible OAK not being properly matched to stove. This is like GM trying to just get money in the bank and will address problems as they come up in their manufacture of cars and all the recalls. Ones faith in being treated right and fairly soon lead to resentment and reluctance.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

moey said:


> I think that extra distance will solve your problem.


Extra? as in higher?


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> It's hard to beat boots on the ground in a lot of stove issues. It was unfortunate that those boots had some holes in them in that they never took into account the venting being to close to eves and the predominate winds of the area. Had the dealer ever tested the draft? Possible OAK not being properly matched to stove. This is like GM trying to just get money in the bank and will address problems as they come up in their manufacture of cars and all the recalls. Ones faith in being treated right and fairly soon lead to resentment and reluctance.



LOL...dont get me going with GM, you can add to that Toyota, both worst possible brand of cars I ever owned and never again.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

moey is saying what you are doing is fine canuck_22  and likely to solve the problem.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

Before going ahead with the startup I looked at the draft once more and low and behold it went from -.80 to -.65 this morning, how the heck can that be?  and yes I waited a least 15 min before testing it. Ok, so we turn the dial, feed pellets and more pellets and more pellets, spill over, 10 minutes later no ignition.  The ignition light is on during this time.  I stop it, empty the pot, the pot is warm and you can smell the heat from the pellets.  Ok, unplug the unit, clean the pot out, pellets not even discolored, start over, same thing.  Repeat everything, this time bypassing the Honeywell T-Stat, same thing.  BTW no blinking status lights


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## Bioburner (Feb 22, 2015)

Well the igniter may be going south. Warranty
My GM just got another recall last week on a long known problem as my car just about went through the garage door as the brakes failed the day before the letter came from GM.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

Let's take stock is the stove connected to the OAK or not?  

Is that igniter area free of ash?

Air has to get past the igniter in order to start the fire.  The igniter can not be covered with ash.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Let's take stock is the stove connected to the OAK or not?
> 
> Is that igniter area free of ash?
> 
> Air has to get past the igniter in order to start the fire.  The igniter can not be covered with ash.



Oak is connected, was just about to have a look at the igniter for that very reason


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> Oak is connected, was just about to have a look at the igniter for that very reason



We will wait.


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## bogieb (Feb 22, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> Sorry if you think I insulted people here, you read in my post that I went to Ottawa to talk to a pro maybe because I dont believe you guys here, *not so*, I went there to buy all that I need to go all the way up above the roof line with the proper termination cap. Instead of just selling to me, he persuaded me to lower it and try it, I'm sure it will work today but when we get a nasty NE wind again I'm worried the problem may return, hence my reason for considering going all the way up.



Like I said, not enough coffee and knew I had to go deal with the snow ASAP as the temps are rising (for one day). I used "insult" incorrectly, and really meant disregarded (or seemed to disregard what the experience people here were trying to tell you). I most likely should have waited to post until after the exercise and pot of coffee so I could word it correctly, or not post it at all.

Of course you have every right to consult an expert. And I truly do hope that your issues are resolved.


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## Bioburner (Feb 22, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> We will wait.


Starting to sound like a online tech support for some big $$$ company. I am not going anywhere with the forecaster being wrong and temp fell to -20


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

I might have to move some of that stuff later, the boss gets that call.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> Starting to sound like a online tech support for some big $$$ company. I am not going anywhere with the forecaster being wrong and temp fell to -20



Was at one time.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

How many screws/nut to yank the igniter out of there?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

Two wing nuts.

They are on the lower portion of the angle of the burn pot.


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## Luv2burnPellets (Feb 22, 2015)

Isn't it the same design as your P61A?  You should have been doing similar basic cleaning on that stove on a routine basis long before now.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

Luv2burnPellets said:


> Isn't it the same design as your P61A?  You should have been doing similar basic cleaning on that stove on a routine basis long before now.



I believe that he has been so distracted with the installation that some things have either fallen by the wayside or the continual fiddling has led to stuff getting where it should not.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

Here is the igniter, clean , so great timing to flunk on me.


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## Bioburner (Feb 22, 2015)

That will work a bit better hopefully
Had a big poster hanging in the shop office, Its hard to remember that your objective was to drain the swamp when your up to your a&* in alligators.


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## gfreek (Feb 22, 2015)

So are you going to have to maually start it??


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

Stuff happens, been there done that many a time. 

That is why when draining swamps you have the folks with the rifles around the shore.

ETA: Going for some ammunition (food) be back in a bit.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

No I did not clean it, it was clean.  That is why I said great timing to flunk.  I'm restating again, will let it do the 36 min and wait for the blink.


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## gfreek (Feb 22, 2015)

Another bump.  Keep at it..


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

5 blinks, failure to start.  Wonder if the dealer would take it back and I take a P43?  What sucks in this scenario is the exhaust position, 8 5/8 to centre.  Does anyone know of another stove that would fit?  Yes call me crazy, but if I make a move the venting will be all the way to the top, I just want something that just chugs along like my P61A, period.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

Did it at least char a pellet this time?

The igniter isn't doing its thing if that stove is under warranty make them replace the igniter.  

Meanwhile do a manual start.   If you persist in a serial manner spring will have sprung complete with flowers.  I got shanghaied at lunch didn't realize it entailed a shopping expedition.


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## MarkF48 (Feb 22, 2015)

- Burn pot holes clear for ignitor heat to pass through? 
- After "Test" mode for draft check, returned Feed Adjuster dial to about 4?
- Assume T-Stat is wired to the temperature sensor and in series(?). How did you "bypass" it?
- If the stove started and burned before, what has changed other than venting?
- Brief summary of how you're starting the stove with switch and dial settings.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

- Burn pot holes clear for ignitor heat to pass through?  *Check*
- After "Test" mode for draft check, returned Feed Adjuster dial to about 4? *Check*
- Assume T-Stat is wired to the temperature sensor and in series(?). How did you "bypass" it? *By removing the T-Stat from the loop*
- If the stove started and burned before, what has changed other than venting? *Nothing*
- Brief summary of how you're starting the stove with switch and dial settings. *Room temp 75%, Feed 4, Auto Ignition, Temp dial is at 85 to allow the T-Stat to do it's thing.*


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## MarkF48 (Feb 22, 2015)

If it were me I would try to start the stove manually with starter gel or a torch and see if it could maintain and control the burn with its own room temp control (keep the T-Stat out of the loop until you know everything is working properly). If it can do that, it then should only be a matter of resolving why the ignitor fails to heat the pellets adequately for ignition. 

I don't have an OAK and I perhaps wonder if the cold air coming in through yours may tend to cool down the heat from the ignitor, thus not building up adequate heat to allow a normal start. Can't say I've ever read of this sort of problem and maybe it isn't a problem, but maybe temporarily disconnecting the OAK might be worth a try.

I've had my XXV since 2011 and it's been a good stove. I think if you get yours up and running the way it should you'll be as happy as you are with the P61.


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## Ambient (Feb 22, 2015)

MarkF48 said:


> If it were me I would try to start the stove manually with starter gel or a torch and see if it could maintain and control the burn with its own room temp control (keep the T-Stat out of the loop until you know everything is working properly). If it can do that, it then should only be a matter of resolving why the ignitor fails to heat the pellets adequately for ignition.
> 
> I don't have an OAK and I perhaps wonder if the cold air coming in through yours may tend to cool down the heat from the ignitor, thus not building up adequate heat to allow a normal start. Can't say I've ever read of this sort of problem and maybe it isn't a problem, but maybe temporarily disconnecting the OAK might be worth a try.
> 
> I've had my XXV since 2011 and it's been a good stove. I think if you get yours up and running the way it should you'll be as happy as you are with the P61.




For discussion sake I'll throw in a concern raised in my quest.  The discussion of OAK for one of the stoves we're looking at, the dealer said that up here, just a bit south of canuck_22, it's so cold that using the OAK in an older home doesn't make sense.  It has to heat the air up so much, thus wasting BTU's. With the temps we've had here lately, week after week of below zero, I would think that it might affect an ignitor. I would also wonder if the ignitor has a good ground contact?  Much like the starter circuit on the diesel tractor or on a battery terminal?  Just a thought.

I had just signed on to ask this somewhere else, but maybe this is a good place to chime in.  I don't want to hijack canuck_22's problem solving though. Feel free to disregard this.


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## MarkF48 (Feb 22, 2015)

Ambient said:


> For discussion sake I'll throw in a concern raised in my quest.  The discussion of OAK for one of the stoves we're looking at, the dealer said that up here, just a bit south of canuck_22, it's so cold that using the OAK in an older home doesn't make sense.  It has to heat the air up so much, thus wasting BTU's. With the temps we've had here lately, week after week of below zero, I would think that it might affect an ignitor. I would also wonder if the ignitor has a good ground contact?  Much like the starter circuit on the diesel tractor or on a battery terminal?  Just a thought.
> 
> I had just signed on to ask this somewhere else, but maybe this is a good place to chime in.  I don't want to hijack canuck_22's problem solving though. Feel free to disregard this.


If your 1852 farm house is as leaky as my 1800's farm house, plenty of fresh outside air manages to find its way in. Probably the same air spaces that the mice enter through.


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## Ambient (Feb 22, 2015)

MarkF48 said:


> If your 1852 farm house is as leaky as my 1800's farm house, plenty of fresh outside air manages to find its way in. Probably the same air spaces that the mice enter through.



Although we stripped this place to its frame the way the wife could help was arming her with a caulk gun and a foam gun to seal every board and crack she could reach, inside and out,  The method to the madness was if it was drafty later on, it was in the hands of who ever sealed up the place? 

Every year I try to seal up more drafts that I find, sadly I do find more, darn mice.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

Please guys he has an OAK on his other stove and a HRV system don't go fouling up the thread.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Please guys he has an OAK on his other stove and a HRV system don't go fouling up the thread.



Thank You!

This home does not allow running without an oak, Harman highly recommends an OAK, if they have not figured out that it could problematic in some instances that's their problem.  I bought an Harman for a reason, my install is simple, the inspector commended me on my work.  At this very moment I'm pulling the stove away from the wall to have a look at things and I'll report back shortly on what I've done all day.


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## Ambient (Feb 22, 2015)

If you have 110+ volts and a good ground then it's the igniter

jmo


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

Ok, here we go.  The high draft makes no sense whatsoever to me, so I connected my gauge, put the stove in test mode and proceeded to change parts on the vent as follows, the reading observed right off the bat was -.80~85.

1) Remove the new jet cap  no change
2) Add 24 inches vertical  no change
3) Add the jet cap to that  nochange
4) Put the old cap back on  no change

So, no matter what I do, no change and it's as low as it goes.

Time to pull it out, disconnect at the exhaust(see pics), disconnect the OAK (see pics)
Put the gauge back in, test mode, -.70 on high then -.25 afterwards, all makes sense as nothing is in there to cause a restriction.  Introduce my hand and rag to the OAK port, the gauge rises to -.50~60~65, so that tells me a high number means starving/restriction!
As I devised the OAK adapter 3 inch to 2 inch using automotive exhaust parts siliconed together then attach it to the 2 inch flex, this had to be a problem hence starving the stove.  I cant see other explanations.  Now maybe the igniter is not getting enough air to fire up the pellets!

Let the feedback pour in


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

Wonderful you confirmed that the OAK is supposed to be the same size and at least as big enough to fit over the stoves air intake.  Besides playing and now having enough information to kick the vent dealer with is the stove running?

ETA: An since you were poking around I hope you cleaned the crud in the exhaust system out as well.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Wonderful you confirmed that the OAK is supposed to be the same size and at least as big enough to fit over the stoves air intake.  Besides playing and now having enough information to kick the vent dealer with is the stove running?


No, it's all disconnected, will have to get a new thimble with a 3 inch or a plain thimble with a separate oak kit.  Not sure now if I need an igniter, might get one just in case.  I might as well get the new Harman adapter while I'm at it.  I did not like the build up of crap as you can see in the pics, maybe because it was not burning well.  A Selkirk DT would be the ultimate, but I dont think my hole is big enough.

Yes I did vacuum the crud.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

Just let us know when you are going playing so we don't just sit around waiting for burn pictures and CO meter readings.   I suspect this thread has a few watchers.


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## MarkF48 (Feb 22, 2015)

Ambient said:


> If you have 110+ volts and a good ground then it's the igniter
> 
> jmo


Just a technical point, the ignitor is fed through the low pressure switch from a wire which being white I would take as the "neutral" and is a current carrying wire. The other wire from the ignitor (yellow) connects back to the control board and likely is fed through a relay from the "hot" side of the line, also a current carrying conductor. The "ground" in the stove is more for safety and protection and wouldn't/shouldn't carry any operating current of the stove. The stove and ignitor could conceivably function without the ground, but not without the neutral. Since the pellet feed motor operates, the neutral conductor that feeds the low pressure switch appears to be intact and the pressure switch is functioning properly.
On a remote chance canuck has a Kill a Watt power meter , he could check the power draw when the ignitor is supposed to be powered up. According to the wiring diagram maximum rated current/power draw is 3.6amps/440watts, a portion of which will be the ignitor. If the reading doesn't get up that high it's likely the ignitor is faulty.

My suggestion to disconnect the OAK was just meant to be only temporary as a means to troubleshoot the possible reason the ignitor didn't adequately heat up in an expected time frame, by no means a permanent fix. Crack open a window for a short while if the house is sealed up tight while doing this. I would hope the house wouldn't explode while doing this. Might be interesting to get a comparative reading of the draft while disconnected also (edit..  see in the above post you did this). Yeah, it should be designed to work correctly with the recommended OAK, but why not try it without and see if there is a different outcome.

Smokey, can you recommend an online seller to get a decent draft gauge. Keep thinking about adding one to rest of tools I have, but haven't gotten around to searching one out yet.


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## Bioburner (Feb 22, 2015)

Slight starvation of any flame can lead to CO too.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

Bioburner said:


> Slight starvation of any flame can lead to CO too.


Yup.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 22, 2015)

MarkF48 said:


> Just a technical point, the ignitor is fed through the low pressure switch from a wire which being white I would take as the "neutral" and is a current carrying wire. The other wire from the ignitor (yellow) connects back to the control board and likely is fed through a relay from the "hot" side of the line, also a current carrying conductor. The "ground" in the stove is more for safety and protection and wouldn't/shouldn't carry any operating current of the stove. The stove and ignitor could conceivably function without the ground, but not without the neutral. Since the pellet feed motor operates, the neutral conductor that feeds the low pressure switch appears to be intact and the pressure switch is functioning properly.
> On a remote chance canuck has a Kill a Watt power meter , he could check the power draw when the ignitor is supposed to be powered up. According to the wiring diagram maximum rated current/power draw is 3.6amps/440watts, a portion of which will be the ignitor. If the reading doesn't get up that high it's likely the ignitor is faulty.
> 
> My suggestion to disconnect the OAK was just meant to be only temporary as a means to troubleshoot the possible reason the ignitor didn't adequately heat up in an expected time frame, by no means a permanent fix. Crack open a window for a short while if the house is sealed up tight while doing this. I would hope the house wouldn't explode while doing this. Might be interesting to get a comparative reading of the draft while disconnected also. Yeah, it should be designed to work correctly with the recommended OAK, but why not try it without and see if there is a different outcome.
> ...



I own 2 Kill a watt, great tool, will do the test when I put it back together.

Smokey, this wont be done until next weekend, I'll call for the parts tomorrow.  I suspect it will be miserable to pull off the adapter from the exhaust.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

You know MarkF48 I always mention setting up to the manual using one but my stove has no setting to adjust to and no way to do an adjustment so I don't have one.  Funny that huh?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

First ya got to generate the CO and then you've got to disperse it.  If ya don't generate a lot of it you don't need too much good air to make what concentration is there inconsequential.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 22, 2015)

canuck_22 said:


> I own 2 Kill a watt, great tool, will do the test when I put it back together.
> 
> Smokey, this wont be done until next weekend, I'll call for the parts tomorrow.  I suspect it will be miserable to pull off the adapter from the exhaust.



Ok not a problem.


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## Luv2burnPellets (Feb 22, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Just let us know when you are going playing so we don't just sit around waiting for burn pictures and CO meter readings.   I suspect this thread has a few watchers.


I for one am watching closely.  I am super impressed with Canuck-22 being so determined and trying everything he can to get to the bottom of it.  Also my hat is off to Smokey for sharing his knowledge and being so genuinely helpful.  A solution is imminent!


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## Luv2burnPellets (Feb 22, 2015)

MarkF48 said:


> Just a technical point, the ignitor is fed through the low pressure switch from a wire which being white I would take as the "neutral" and is a current carrying wire. The other wire from the ignitor (yellow) connects back to the control board and likely is fed through a relay from the "hot" side of the line, also a current carrying conductor. The "ground" in the stove is more for safety and protection and wouldn't/shouldn't carry any operating current of the stove. The stove and ignitor could conceivably function without the ground, but not without the neutral. Since the pellet feed motor operates, the neutral conductor that feeds the low pressure switch appears to be intact and the pressure switch is functioning properly.
> On a remote chance canuck has a Kill a Watt power meter , he could check the power draw when the ignitor is supposed to be powered up. According to the wiring diagram maximum rated current/power draw is 3.6amps/440watts, a portion of which will be the ignitor. If the reading doesn't get up that high it's likely the ignitor is faulty.
> 
> My suggestion to disconnect the OAK was just meant to be only temporary as a means to troubleshoot the possible reason the ignitor didn't adequately heat up in an expected time frame, by no means a permanent fix. Crack open a window for a short while if the house is sealed up tight while doing this. I would hope the house wouldn't explode while doing this. Might be interesting to get a comparative reading of the draft while disconnected also (edit..  see in the above post you did this). Yeah, it should be designed to work correctly with the recommended OAK, but why not try it without and see if there is a different outcome.
> ...


He has a Dwyer magnahelic draft gage, which I think is an extremely high quality gage.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 23, 2015)

Luv2burnPellets said:


> He has a Dwyer magnahelic draft gage, which I think is an extremely high quality gage.



I do


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 23, 2015)

And just so everyone understands the igniter needs a very good airflow past it to do its job in the time allotted before the control system says failed ignition.


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## MarkF48 (Feb 23, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> And just so everyone understands the igniter needs a very good airflow past it to do its job in the time allotted before the control system says failed ignition.


And the airflow likely will probably help significantly with the issue of the innards of the stove getting gummed up that he had


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## canuck_22 (Feb 27, 2015)

Well folks, after a week of reflecting, information gathering from pros here and in my area, I risk not succeeding, sink more money with bad results.  Three different dealers have spelled it out the same way and that convinced me at the end of the day, 1) my stove is on the wrong wall with no options, North/East=nasty super cold winds  2) Long vent pipes outside instead of inside means "gummy" pipes and stove = troubles, long pipes will always remain cold and condense, soot, gum up, not good.  So I sold the XXV stove this afternoon, they are picking it up Sunday, my spouse wont have to deal with this when I travel on business.  Sorry folks, I wish I could say I fired it up and report back with something more helpful, I take my loss and move on.  The P61A on the west side of the house chugs along very nicely, at the end of the day only one stove to baby.  With the new gas furnace coming in May, it will have an additional cold air return expressly for the P61A, the ECM motor on the furnace will run 24/7, my furnace installer says it should produce nice results, in other words maximize the use of the pellet stove by distributing more evenly.  I wish to thank everyone for their help, appreciated.  PS, I have mixed feelings about my dealer's assistance, pellet sales next year will be awarded elsewhere, same goes for service parts.


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## Ambient (Feb 27, 2015)

Our natural inclinations drive us to be stubborn, yet with age comes more wisdom.  I found that the Spouse being happy is half any battle.  Sorry it didn't work out for you.


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## canuck_22 (Feb 28, 2015)

Ambient said:


> Our natural inclinations drive us to be stubborn, yet with age comes more wisdom.  I found that the Spouse being happy is half any battle.  Sorry it didn't work out for you.



Yup happy wife happy house, this is what she is getting instead,  press button on press button off.  I'm confident the P61A in the basement is still going to give me savings.


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