# Uni tsi boilers opinions



## hyfire (Nov 26, 2020)

Hi since i an unable to purchase an effecta smart boiler, I am looking into these tsi boilers, but looking for more info.  Even though they show in Canada , they ship from USA. Looks about $700 usd shipping. Want to be sure I am not making a poor decision.


----------



## 3fordasho (Nov 26, 2020)

hyfire said:


> Hi since i an unable to purchase an effecta smart boiler, I am looking into these tsi boilers, but looking for more info.  Even though they show in Canada , they ship from USA. Looks about $700 usd shipping.


Lots of speculation about the tsi uni boilers here but very few actual users.   I paid about $300-350 to get my 1200 lb Attack boiler from out east to southern MN- just a reference point on shipping.   I don't know if one can purchase an Attack, EKO or Biomass boiler anymore from newhorizonstore.com but these are all true european built downdraft gasifiers and there is plenty of info here about them and users.  I would take a chance on anyone of these (and have) before I would be the guinea pig with a tsi uni boiler.   The EKO and some other brands have been imported directly from kotly.com as well.  If you were looking at an Effecta, have you looked at Varm from smokelessheat.com?  Quite sure these are still available in north america.


----------



## maple1 (Nov 26, 2020)

Do a forum search on tsi. I would pass.

Mine came from smokeless heat in 2012 - check out their website to see what they're showing now. Crossing the border it's not just freight. Currency exchange, duty and brokerage fees are kickers.


----------



## hyfire (Nov 26, 2020)

3fordasho said:


> Lots of speculation about the tsi uni boilers here but very few actual users.   I paid about $300-350 to get my 1200 lb Attack boiler from out east to southern MN- just a reference point on shipping.   I don't know if one can purchase an Attack, EKO or Biomass boiler anymore from newhorizonstore.com but these are all true european built downdraft gasifiers and there is plenty of info here about them and users.  I would take a chance on anyone of these (and have) before I would be the guinea pig with a tsi uni boiler.   The EKO and some other brands have been imported directly from kotly.com as well.  If you were looking at an Effecta, have you looked at Varm from smokelessheat.com?  Quite sure these are still available in north america.


That is a great site newhorizonstore looking around.  I tried smokeless heat and they dont have any smaller varms in stock.   tht biomass next gen looks pretty good 25 kw the attack is very large.


----------



## andym (Nov 26, 2020)

hyfire said:


> That is a great site newhorizonstore looking around.  I tried smokeless heat and they dont have any smaller varms in stock.   tht biomass next gen looks pretty good 25 kw the attack is very large.


If the attack dpxl is still available and fits your budget that would be a great choice.


----------



## andym (Nov 26, 2020)

I just checked on MBTEK's website. The client map is still there under the contact page.


----------



## 3fordasho (Nov 26, 2020)

andym said:


> If the attack dpxl is still available and fits your budget that would be a great choice.


I agree. Lambda air control, draft inducer pulls air thru the firebox so less smoke spillage on reloads.  Only other boilers available with the lambda control are twice the money.  The Varms are easier to clean the exchanger tubes but I've only found the need to brush the tubes about once a season on my Attack.   The cleaning need will increase if you don't have storage which will force the boiler to idle in low demand situations.


----------



## hyfire (Nov 28, 2020)

I looked at the data on it and I still think the next gen biomass unit is another one im looking at.It can burn anything you want in it with up to 30% moisture but i dont think its lamba controlled.


----------



## salecker (Nov 28, 2020)

I would be very concerned about someone selling a boiler that can burn anything in it up to 30% moisture.
It sounds like a recipe for poor performance in any gasifying attempt.
Can anyone say Creosote without feeling bad about it?


----------



## 3fordasho (Nov 28, 2020)

hyfire said:


> I looked at the data on it and I still think the next gen biomass unit is another one im looking at.It can burn anything you want in it with up to 30% moisture but i dont think its lamba controlled.



There is no doubt that my Attack will burn some 30% moisture content wood once a good coal bed has been established.  However this is only because I burn to charge storage and the boiler does not go into idle mode.  I also suspect I would be wondering why the boiler is burning a lot more wood to get storage up to temp.  Bottom line is I don't do that and I don't have to deal with gunked up exchanger tubes in the boiler.


----------



## hyfire (Nov 28, 2020)

andym said:


> I just checked on MBTEK's website. The client map is still there under the contact page.


I thought that was a list of dealers but its not thanks I will be contacting a few people.


----------



## hyfire (Nov 28, 2020)

Ok,   here an update, it looks like the few people i have contacted are very happy with the uni tsi units so far.  Been doing a ton of research and everying else will cost about 10k this would be about 5k complete a big difference!  I think it may not be the best in efficiency but seems like good value.? If i go with the smaller version I wont need 400 gal of storage min either.  I have enough fan coil load to support 150k , I dont see that it will be going to idle mode much..


----------



## maple1 (Nov 29, 2020)

The only way it wont be going into idle much, is if your house will be using all the boiler puts out.  Which could mean you have a high heat demand, or poor boiler output. Do you know your heat load?

I would still pass on it. But not my decision.


----------



## salecker (Nov 29, 2020)

hyfire said:


> Ok,   here an update, it looks like the few people i have contacted are very happy with the uni tsi units so far.  Been doing a ton of research and everying else will cost about 10k this would be about 5k complete a big difference!  I think it may not be the best in efficiency but seems like good value.? If i go with the smaller version I wont need 400 gal of storage min either.  I have enough fan coil load to support 150k , I dont see that it will be going to idle mode much..


Going without storage is bad.
there are so many good reasons for storage.
And so many bad reasons to go without.
All of them are documented on the pages of Hearth.
Spend some more time reading before you buy or build.
That was the best thing i ever did.If i hadn't found this site i would have bought a piece of crap water heater,installed crappy underground lines,and had a crappy system that would have made life miserable trying to heat my house in the Yukon.
I have a trouble free system that i don't worry about when the temps hit -40 or if i go away.
True i spent a lot of money on my system,money well spent because i found Hearth got great advice.
A saying comes to mind
There is never enough time or money to do it once right...
But there is always enough time or money to do it right the second time...


----------



## SpaceBus (Nov 29, 2020)

I can understand why the TSI/MBtek units look good right now. It's an economic downturn, so budgets are getting tighter. If I were in your shoes I would go for the budget boiler and spend the savings on your storage, chimney, and plumbing. For me if the TSI unit is smokeless/low emissions I could deal with a lower efficiency. Hopefully by the time the boiler needs replacement/upgraded the economy is doing a little better. With proper storage you could size the unit to only load it once a day and then you can put it in an outbuilding with less inconvenience.


----------



## maple1 (Nov 29, 2020)

I am doubtful one load a day would do it with one of these. But I could be wrong.


----------



## SpaceBus (Nov 29, 2020)

maple1 said:


> I am doubtful one load a day would do it with one of these. But I could be wrong.


I've seen threads where folks use older boilers without any kind of secondary burn get 24 hrs with the right size appliance and storage. Home insulation is certainly a big factor as well. Maybe 24 hrs is a bit ambitious, but long periods between reloads should be possible with the size burner and storage.


----------



## Bad LP (Nov 29, 2020)

salecker said:


> Going without storage is bad.
> there are so many good reasons for storage.
> And so many bad reasons to go without.
> All of them are documented on the pages of Hearth.
> ...


You make mention of finding this site. 

If one comes on here with an open mind to learn and not have some false pretenses on how to build a good system this is the place.


----------



## maple1 (Nov 29, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I've seen threads where folks use older boilers without any kind of secondary burn get 24 hrs with the right size appliance and storage. Home insulation is certainly a big factor as well. Maybe 24 hrs is a bit ambitious, but long periods between reloads should be possible with the size burner and storage.



I dont think they do it on one load of wood though.


----------



## SpaceBus (Nov 29, 2020)

maple1 said:


> I dont think they do it on one load of wood though.


Fair enough, I didn't consider that.


----------



## hyfire (Nov 29, 2020)

Thanks everyone I will look into more storage and keep looking around for boilers, so many to choose on the internet. I think it would only burn 3-4 hours max the firebox is not that big.  I have not done anyload calculations, but I had a pellet stove in the shop and it was 53000 btu and I would be going through 2 bags a day at -15C approx adding the house with it wont keep up for sure.  This wont be my primary heat source anyway, I will just use it occasionally when I need to work in the shop.


----------



## salecker (Nov 30, 2020)

Bad LP said:


> You make mention of finding this site.
> 
> If one comes on here with an open mind to learn and not have some false pretenses on how to build a good system this is the place.


Yes it is !
Plus there is so much information to be had by asking the pro's on here,who are always ready to lend a hand.
I have had to do nothing to my system in the last 10 years.
I would like to have a new control system,which i will get to once i have time.
Have you looked at the Econoburn boilers? I can't remember if you had ruled them out.


----------



## hyfire (Dec 1, 2020)

Not getting any response to emails,frm mbtek is this a bad sign?


----------



## sloeffle (Dec 1, 2020)

hyfire said:


> Not getting any response to emails,frm mbtek is this a bad sign?


If they can't send you an email to sell you a product, then imagine when they'll get back to you when there is a problem. If I was spending that much money on something I'd want to make sure there is a phone number I can call to provide sales and support.


----------



## brenndatomu (Dec 1, 2020)

maple1 said:


> I dont think they do it on one load of wood though.


Bingo!
Personally, if I were going to install a wood fired boiler without storage, there is 0.000000000000000000000% percent chance that I would get one without lambda control.
With lambda, I might consider going without storage...maybe...


----------



## Bad LP (Dec 1, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Bingo!
> Personally, if I were going to install a wood fired boiler without storage, there is 0.000000000000000000000% percent chance that I would get one without lambda control.
> With lambda, I might consider going without storage...maybe...


I'm not so sure. With storage there is a huge piece of mind knowing it's not smoldering making a mess out of things but that's me.


----------



## hyfire (Feb 25, 2021)

Anyone else use these boilers from TIS ?


----------



## S.Whiplash (Feb 25, 2021)

Have you spoken with the owner of the MBTek?  Make sure to ask if these boilers have the  CSA/UL certification, if not your fire insurance will be void if your shop burns down.  Do you know where they are made?  They should be upfront with this info, could be Russia, possibly China, or some other 3rd world hell-hole, but certainly not made anywhere near Chester PA. where they are being stocked.  

Anyone recognize the language on this 4th brochure on the right?  That might be a clue...






						Link - Google Drive
					






					drive.google.com


----------



## maple1 (Feb 26, 2021)

S.Whiplash said:


> Have you spoken with the owner of the MBTek?  Make sure to ask if these boilers have the  CSA/UL certification, if not your fire insurance will be void if your shop burns down.



Quite sure there was another thread on here that ended up revealing there was no certification. That alone would be a hard no here.


----------



## hyfire (Feb 27, 2021)

No i have not spoke with them, just a few customers who say they work well.


----------



## Case1030 (Feb 27, 2021)

hyfire said:


> No i have not spoke with them, just a few customers who say they work well.



To give a little insight they do work good. The Pellet Duo 40 is what my dad ended up putting in an out building. It's efficient, quiet and does as advertised. I was surprised at how well designed it is and all the options make it pretty slick (wifi thermostat controller, outdoor weather sensor, and boiler station.) 

On the downside customer service is brutal and not sure how the guy can operate in that way and still have a business... completely disorganized, had to wait 2 months for the boiler to arrive when he said would only be 1 month. Then found out it was only half the shipment and all the additional add-ons came a week after that putting a monkey wrench in the installation.

Only buy one if you have an outbuilding/wood shed that is away from primary buildings. In my opinion it's worth it to have everything separate anyway because keeps the mess in a separate building, good piece of mind, and even if it was CSA approved it would still increase your insurance rate.

Now for any US residents that can utilize the 26% tax credit it would be a no-brainer to go with an approved certified unit.


----------



## S.Whiplash (Feb 27, 2021)

The same scam pop up every couple of years, swear the last time it was out of Quebec.....maybe it's even the same guy.  Somebody imports a container full of cheap wood boilers made in the 3rd world and blows them out at half the price of any other product on the market. Once they're gone the business probably will be too before any govt. body catches up.  Buyer beware, good luck finding parts for a boiler made in Belarus.


----------



## Case1030 (Feb 27, 2021)

S.Whiplash said:


> The same scam pop up every couple of years, swear the last time it was out of Quebec.....maybe it's even the same guy.  Somebody imports a container full of cheap wood boilers made in the 3rd world and blows them out at half the price of any other product on the market. Once they're gone the business probably will be too before any govt. body catches up.  Buyer beware, good luck finding parts for a boiler made in Belarus.



Customer support is crap... but they have been around for about 6 years or more. 

This has been a topic quite few times on this forum... kinda like who is going to bite the bullet first lol.


----------



## SpaceBus (Feb 28, 2021)

Case1030 said:


> Customer support is crap... but they have been around for about 6 years or more.
> 
> This has been a topic quite few times on this forum... kinda like who is going to bite the bullet first lol.



I hope a forum member takes the plunge. I'm dying to know if the wood only version is worth a crap. I know it's not a downdraft boiler, but it should be at least 75% efficient even as an updraft boiler.


----------



## maple1 (Feb 28, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> I hope a forum member takes the plunge. I'm dying to know if the wood only version is worth a crap. I know it's not a downdraft boiler, but it should be at least 75% efficient even as an updraft boiler.



Highly highly doubtful on 75%. I am guessing my gasser might be 80% under it's best conditions. Lambda boilers are more. After living with it for 8 years now, and comparing to my prior water jacketed slug the 17 years before that, I would ballpark the slug at 40%. At very best.


----------



## SpaceBus (Feb 28, 2021)

maple1 said:


> Highly highly doubtful on 75%. I am guessing my gasser might be 80% under it's best conditions. Lambda boilers are more. After living with it for 8 years now, and comparing to my prior water jacketed slug the 17 years before that, I would ballpark the slug at 40%. At very best.


Why do you doubt 75%? There are freestanding woodstoves in that territory, so to me it doesn't seem like a jump when you have thermal storage.


----------



## maple1 (Feb 28, 2021)

Stoves and boilers are apples and oranges. First hit on efficiency would be lack of gasification/secondary burn. Pretty sure this is still a liquid cooled firebox appliance. Second would or might be heat exchanging. After all the things I have read on these, it's still not clear if they have tubes or not. Doesnt look like it on the cut away view in their 'manual'. Someone did say they thought they saw a picture showing tubes, but I haven't seen it. Then there is the catch-22 that even if they have tubes, the dirty burn will likely dirty them up in a hurry. Would need fairly constant attention to maintain optimum transfer efficiency.  Adding storage and batch burning would no doubt help, but I wouldn't expect much more than something like 60% efficiency.  Too bad we didnt have some real world info, but there doesn't seem to be any even after all this time.


----------



## E Yoder (Mar 1, 2021)

The cutaway looks like a regular old style updraft grated boiler, with no secondary burn.  I can't see how it could pass EPA, but maybe no one cares. 
Not saying it's a bad unit, but there's scant info and shouldn't be compared to a true gasser.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 1, 2021)

Why can't secondary combustion happen? Is it because the stove has a water jacket? My cookstove with a bottom grate and secondary air inlets burns all the smoke, but it also has a refractory lined firebox and just a water coil, not a water jacket.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 1, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Why can't secondary combustion happen? Is it because the stove has a water jacket? My cookstove with a bottom grate and secondary air inlets burns all the smoke, but it also has a refractory lined firebox and just a water coil, not a water jacket.



Yup that's the primary reason. Gasifying boilers do their secondary burning in a refractory lined secondary burn chamber.


----------



## S.Whiplash (Mar 2, 2021)

Not totally sure but I believe all woodstoves that achieve true secondary combustion do so through the magic of a catalytic converter, which is a consumable.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 2, 2021)

S.Whiplash said:


> Not totally sure but I believe all woodstoves that achieve true secondary combustion do so through the magic of a catalytic converter, which is a consumable.


I have two stoves that do not use catalysts and I believe both are 75% efficient.


----------



## E Yoder (Mar 2, 2021)

A water jacketed boiler has a very difficult time consistently burning off gasses unless it downdrafts through the hot coals and into a seperate reburn area. 
An updraft design that burns up against the water jacket is too cool except late in the burn. 
My experience tinkering around anyway.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 3, 2021)

That pretty much kills any chance I would take a risk on one of these boilers. I could forgive the low efficiency, but smoky exhaust is a deal breaker.


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 3, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> I could forgive the low efficiency, but smoky exhaust is a deal breaker.


They don't call old school OWB's "smoke dragons" for no reason! Worst of the worst! They make an old school stoves look like something out of the future...not kidding!
This is probably right after a call for heat, but still, it gives  you the idea! (they do clean up some after the fire builds)
The second pic would probably be more typical of "idling"...which happens most of the day/night.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 3, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> They don't call old school OWB's "smoke dragons" for no reason! Worst of the worst! They make an old school stoves look like something out of the future...not kidding!
> This is probably right after a call for heat, but still, it gives  you the idea! (they do clean up some after the fire builds)
> The second pic would probably be more typical of "idling"...which happens most of the day/night.
> View attachment 275684
> View attachment 275685


That's atrocious


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 3, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> That's atrocious


Agreed...and I think anyone on here that has one in the neighborhood will admit that my pics are pretty typical of an old school OWB, especially if they don't run burn truly dry wood (and most don't)
My dad has a 20 year old Central Boiler and it makes clouds like that, and worse sometimes, fortunately I have convinced them to run dry(er) wood, and that has helped...there have been times in the past that the smoke cloud from the boiler was blowing across the road and the smoke was so thick people were actually slowing down to drive through it! 
I finally have them convinced to buy a gassifier to replace the 20 YO CB...looking at HeatMasters currently...


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 3, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> Agreed...and I think anyone on here that has one in the neighborhood will admit that my pics are pretty typical of an old school OWB, especially if they don't run burn truly dry wood (and most don't)
> My dad has a 20 year old Central Boiler and it makes clouds like that, and worse sometimes, fortunately I have convinced them to run dry(er) wood, and that has helped...there have been times in the past that the smoke cloud from the boiler was blowing across the road and the smoke was so thick people were actually slowing down to drive through it!
> I finally have them convinced to buy a gassifier to replace the 20 YO CB...looking at HeatMasters currently...


I would hope these UNI TSI boilers would be better than an older OWB smoke dragon, especially when batch burning to charge storage, but seems that the odds are against that. After living with modern EPA stoves I would never go back to a smoke dragon.


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 3, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> I would hope these UNI TSI boilers would be better than an older OWB smoke dragon, especially when batch burning to charge storage,


Even old school models do better when batch burning...


----------



## Case1030 (Mar 3, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> I would hope these UNI TSI boilers would be better than an older OWB smoke dragon, especially when batch burning to charge storage, but seems that the odds are against that. After living with modern EPA stoves I would never go back to a smoke dragon.



They aren't bad as people make them out to be. The pictures attached show batch burning with no secondary air... being that it is a pellet model it does not have the secondary and not optimized for burning cord wood. No visible smoke outside....

But as @brenndatomu mentioned above smoke is mainly a problem when going into a burn cycle or when heat is satisfied.

From what I understand the UNI does do a pretty good job... better than a smoke dragon but I agree that storage might be a must when using water cooled firebox with no brick lining.

We primarily burn pellets and it burns very clean. Exhaust doesn't smell at all. Nice to have the option if something breaks to switch to manual burn.


----------



## Case1030 (Mar 3, 2021)

Here is the heat exchangers when only burning pellets. Slight difference in fly ash color.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 3, 2021)

Looks like a decently clean burn with wood, and definitely a clean burn with pellets.


----------



## Case1030 (Mar 3, 2021)

It has some pretty neat features I can get into next time I stop in at dad's place.

Off the top of my head it uses an outdoor temperature sensor to create a heating curve. We added on the touchscreen thermostat and wifi hub to remotely control and view parameters.

Also used the boiler radiant station for infloor heat with electric mixing valve which works pretty good. Few features still need to figure out.


----------



## E Yoder (Mar 4, 2021)

I would agree with earlier comments, not all water jacketed boilers are the same, there are some models that you see in the pictures that are horrible others aren't too bad and people don't know they are running. So you notice the bad ones.
Another factor in all this is that back in the old days some dealers didn't bother teaching the end user any useful loading techniques that help efficiency and reduce smoke. I have been amazed how much of a difference that makes.
All that ramble to say there is a big difference between talking in general terms of different designs v. specifics of performance and features on a particular unit. That's where the forum comes in.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 4, 2021)

E Yoder said:


> I would agree with earlier comments, not all water jacketed boilers are the same, there are some models that you see in the pictures that are horrible others aren't too bad and people don't know they are running. So you notice the bad ones.
> Another factor in all this is that back in the old days some dealers didn't bother teaching the end user any useful loading techniques that help efficiency and reduce smoke. I have been amazed how much of a difference that makes.
> All that ramble to say there is a big difference between talking in general terms of different designs v. specifics of performance and features on a particular unit. That's where the forum comes in.


Indeed, that's why I'm hoping someone will buy a wood only TSI UNI boiler


----------



## Bad LP (Mar 4, 2021)

There’s a place on the town line with an old school smoker.
If he was my neighbor I’d perform a 30 round mag dump with green tips on it.


----------



## E Yoder (Mar 4, 2021)

Those are the ones that turn people against wood burners.


----------



## 3fordasho (Mar 4, 2021)

E Yoder said:


> Those are the ones that turn people against wood burners.


On my way to work there is a insulating contractor that heats their large steel/pole shed type building with one of the bigger conventional Central boiler OWB and I've seen it fog out four lanes of divided highway if the wind is in the right direction.  Most of the time it's not too bad though.  Lucky for them there is mainly other businesses around them but I bet there are complaints from time to time.


----------



## hyfire (Mar 4, 2021)

So are these UNI boilers worth using or too smokey?


----------



## andym (Mar 4, 2021)

hyfire said:


> So are these UNI boilers worth using or too smokey?


This forum has yet to hear from an owner who has a wood only Uni boiler. Innocent until proven guilty is my verdict. The exhaust will certainly not be as clean as a Froling, Varm, etc. But clouds of smoke obscuring the neighbors and four lanes of traffic? No. Not with dry wood, a buffer tank and an owner with some common sense.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 5, 2021)

hyfire said:


> So are these UNI boilers worth using or too smokey?



That's a hard question to balance. Could be a reason other than smoke that might make it not worth using. And 'worth it' is kind of up to the buyer and their personal preferences and tolerances.


----------



## salecker (Mar 5, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Indeed, that's why I'm hoping someone will buy a wood only TSI UNI boiler


That somebody could be you...


----------



## andym (Mar 5, 2021)

The smallest model would have to be cute. It only takes a 14" log. It requires a 4" chimney. As in pellet stove pipe?
The UNI 500 on the other hand is a monster! 7,800 lbs, holds 515 gallons water, requires a 12" chimney, and accepts logs up to 90"! Gasp! One fire would heat my house for weeks!


----------



## Case1030 (Mar 5, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Indeed, that's why I'm hoping someone will buy a wood only TSI UNI boiler



If the UNI burns wood as well as the pellet model I'd be optimistic.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 5, 2021)

After I build the heated barn perhaps I will get one.


----------



## S.Whiplash (Mar 5, 2021)

Case1030 said:


> If the UNI burns wood as well as the pellet model I'd be optimistic.



 Pellet boilers have a few serious advantages over wood boilers when it comes to combustion, the evidence shows up on the EPA list.  To start with the moisture content of wood pellets is usually 6-10% as opposed to wood in 20-30% M.C. range.  Pellet burners only burn a small quantity of fuel at a time, not 50 lbs., so the fire is rarely overwhelmed or choked for air.  Third advantage, they are self-feeding and self-igniting, when there is no call for heat the feed shuts down and the small quantity of fuel left in the fire box is consumed quickly and cleanly.  Using propane or electricity to reignite makes the restart clean as well.


----------



## S.Whiplash (Mar 5, 2021)

So perusing the latest EPA qualified list, we are left with a handful of N.A. manufacturers that can qualify wood boilers that pass the latest emissions standards.  Assuming Central Boiler bought up WoodMaster literally less than 5 N.A. manufacturers have demonstrated they can pass or afford the current standard of EPA testing.   What the hell are they trying to accomplish?  Most wood boiler makers employ less than 25 people, once gone, they're never coming back.


----------



## E Yoder (Mar 5, 2021)

The step 2 epa levels have clobbered wood boiler manufacturers. 
Most are gone now or bought out in Woodmaster's case.
Some of it could be their own fault in not getting ready, but you have to remember these are mostly small guys who can't realistically do a lot of expensive testing.
I get calls regularly for service on brands that are out of business. I can barely keep up.


----------



## E Yoder (Mar 5, 2021)

S.Whiplash said:


> Pellet boilers have a few serious advantages over wood boilers when it comes to combustion, the evidence shows up on the EPA list.  To start with the moisture content of wood pellets is usually 6-10% as opposed to wood in 20-30% M.C. range.  Pellet burners only burn a small quantity of fuel at a time, not 50 lbs., so the fire is rarely overwhelmed or choked for air.  Third advantage, they are self-feeding and self-igniting, when there is no call for heat the feed shuts down and the small quantity of fuel left in the fire box is consumed quickly and cleanly.  Using propane or electricity to reignite makes the restart clean as well.



Pellet boilers/stoves really should be in a different list than cordwood boilers. It's completely different like you described. It's a manufactured fuel.


----------



## hyfire (Mar 5, 2021)

I went to  belkomin and they have a video of how they are built all heavy duty partial automated welded and thick steel. They look built really well. Its -50 in siberia, I cant see being that dangerous to have?


----------



## Case1030 (Mar 6, 2021)

S.Whiplash said:


> Pellet boilers have a few serious advantages over wood boilers when it comes to combustion, the evidence shows up on the EPA list.  To start with the moisture content of wood pellets is usually 6-10% as opposed to wood in 20-30% M.C. range.  Pellet burners only burn a small quantity of fuel at a time, not 50 lbs., so the fire is rarely overwhelmed or choked for air.  Third advantage, they are self-feeding and self-igniting, when there is no call for heat the feed shuts down and the small quantity of fuel left in the fire box is consumed quickly and cleanly.  Using propane or electricity to reignite makes the restart clean as well.



That's true but we are talking about using storage...

Also as a test I burnt wood in the manual feed door on the pellet duo and still had good success. It can only get more efficient using the UNI.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 6, 2021)

E Yoder said:


> The step 2 epa levels have clobbered wood boiler manufacturers.
> Most are gone now or bought out in Woodmaster's case.
> Some of it could be their own fault in not getting ready, but you have to remember these are mostly small guys who can't realistically do a lot of expensive testing.
> I get calls regularly for service on brands that are out of business. I can barely keep up.


They had plenty of warning, but it seems none of them wanted to develop gasification technology, which has been commonplace on woodstoves, and the UMaine Jetstream boiler, since the 70's. European and a few select US manufacturers have been making gasification boilers for years now, so there were even plenty of proven designs to draw inspiration from.


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 6, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> European and a few select US manufacturers have been making gasification boilers for years now, so there were even plenty of proven designs to draw inspiration from.


Same with the forced air furnace MFG's...seems like most of them didn't even try until 2017...now, they gone


----------



## Case1030 (Mar 6, 2021)

How come you aren't trying to utilize the 26% tax incentives?

Plenty of options in the downdraft area...


----------



## salecker (Mar 6, 2021)

S.Whiplash said:


> So perusing the latest EPA qualified list, we are left with a handful of N.A. manufacturers that can qualify wood boilers that pass the latest emissions standards.  Assuming Central Boiler bought up WoodMaster literally less than 5 N.A. manufacturers have demonstrated they can pass or afford the current standard of EPA testing.   What the hell are they trying to accomplish?  Most wood boiler makers employ less than 25 people, once gone, they're never coming back.


I have heard that covid has stopped a lot of testing
The boilers can cross boarders for testing but the people who build run them can't without isolating ect.
Bringing the costs way up to get a proper test done.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 6, 2021)

hyfire said:


> I went to  belkomin and they have a video of how they are built all heavy duty partial automated welded and thick steel. They look built really well. Its -50 in siberia, I cant see being that dangerous to have?




I'm not sure anyone said they were dangerous? For me its just the simple fact that no CSA sticker = not insurable. If I had a situation where I wanted a boiler tied to storage in a building that I wasn't wanting to insure, I might actually consider.  But I would need to see one first hand first, and read some first hand user honest feedback before considering.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 6, 2021)

Case1030 said:


> How come you aren't trying to utilize the 26% tax incentives?
> 
> Plenty of options in the downdraft area...


I'm not buying any time in the next few years. By the time I am read there will probably be very different appliances on the market.


----------



## S.Whiplash (Mar 6, 2021)

Case1030 said:


> That's true but we are talking about using storage...
> 
> Also as a test I burnt wood in the manual feed door on the pellet duo and still had good success. It can only get more efficient using the UNI.



Even with thermal storage cord wood burners can not match pellet boilers for low emissions, but it's not really a competition, they just happen to be on the same list of apples and oranges.  Pellet boilers also run better with thermal storage as it reduces cycling.


----------



## S.Whiplash (Mar 6, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> They had plenty of warning, but it seems none of them wanted to develop gasification technology, which has been commonplace on woodstoves, and the UMaine Jetstream boiler, since the 70's. European and a few select US manufacturers have been making gasification boilers for years now, so there were even plenty of proven designs to draw inspiration from.



Let's face it, due to the reliance on the fossil fuel industry in N.A.,  biomass boilers for central heating is little more than a niche product with a very small marketplace existing on the fringes of common society.  If there were great profits to be made the European manufacturers would show more interest in the N.A. marketplace.  Alternatively if it was worthwhile one of the giant US owned wood-stove conglomerates would add wood boilers to it's portfolio and invest the R&D needed to dominate the market and wipe out all of the little guys.  They already know for every wood boiler they could produce, they can sell 1,000 wood stoves, so they don't bother chasing peanuts and other odd nuts.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 6, 2021)

S.Whiplash said:


> Let's face it, due to the reliance on the fossil fuel industry in N.A.,  biomass boilers for central heating is little more than a niche product with a very small marketplace existing on the fringes of common society.  If there were great profits to be made the European manufacturers would show more interest in the N.A. marketplace.  Alternatively if it was worthwhile one of the giant US owned wood-stove conglomerates would add wood boilers to it's portfolio and invest the R&D needed to dominate the market and wipe out all of the little guys.  They already know for every wood boiler they could produce, they can sell 1,000 wood stoves, so they don't bother chasing peanuts and other odd nuts.


Indeed, all great points. I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't be feeling bad for the manufacturers for not keeping pace with the times. These companies, no matter how small, were not blindsided by the tightening regulations. Apparently it was better to lobby for extensions and exemptions rather than innovate.


----------



## salecker (Mar 7, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Indeed, all great points. I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't be feeling bad for the manufacturers for not keeping pace with the times. These companies, no matter how small, were not blindsided by the tightening regulations. Apparently it was better to lobby for extensions and exemptions rather than innovate.


But some companies have been hobbled by covid and travel restrictions.
I was talking to one of the head guys from one company and they have their boiler ready for EPA testing,but the testing facility is in Canada.Which presents a huge extra cost to the already expensive testing required to pass the EPA tests.Without having their personnel onsite the testing facility cannot make changes or adjustments like the people that build them.


----------



## SpaceBus (Mar 7, 2021)

salecker said:


> But some companies have been hobbled by covid and travel restrictions.
> I was talking to one of the head guys from one company and they have their boiler ready for EPA testing,but the testing facility is in Canada.Which presents a huge extra cost to the already expensive testing required to pass the EPA tests.Without having their personnel onsite the testing facility cannot make changes or adjustments like the people that build them.


Covid is not an excuse, they had years to figure this out. The regulations were supposed to go into effect before Covid.


----------



## salecker (Mar 8, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Covid is not an excuse, they had years to figure this out. The regulations were supposed to go into effect before Covid.


covid is not an excuse for them it is a fact of life and they can not get EPA certification because of it.
Only the CCP knew that corrona was going out in the world,it's not like it was advertised so company's could schedule around it.
 Coming up with new models that pass the EPA doesn't just happen overnight.
 Lot's of use of corrona as an excuse,but that's not always the case.That's just generalizing and lumping everyone together


----------



## ajalger (Jul 24, 2021)

Did anyone ever take the plunge with a wood only mbtek?


----------



## jdboy9 (Aug 16, 2021)

I am torn between one of their coal units or pellet.  I noticed they have wood chip boilers available now as well.  The wood only smaller models are pretty cheap and I considered getting one just to try it but I really don't want to burn wood anymore.  Coal and pellets are reasonable around here so I'm going that route.


----------

