# Swimming Pool Costs (Long)



## Mo Heat (Apr 2, 2007)

I'm starting this in the Green Room, but will move it to the Ash Can if it degrades or anyone complains. Even though this is obviously an energy consumption issue, I'm asking for primarily personal reasons. Please read on.

My house is on a hill. The hill seems to be moving. The patio slabs are spreading and the deck supports are splaying.  I think I may need a retaining wall, or more. So while I'm mentally and emotionally flailing myself down into the depths of permits, contractors of unknown skill and other things, denied insurance claims (moving earth damage? I may be the only person in Missouri with earthquake insurance since I moved here from San Francisco.  ), disruption of an otherwise peaceful life, and writing big checks (whew), Mrs. Mo Heat _ piles on_ and suggests that this might be a good time to consolidate those headaches with the installation of a swimming pool. Uhhhh, thanks Mrs. Mo! Great suggestion!? Where did I put the Mylanta? ;(

Some of my cost questions for current and previous pool owners are:

How much does a swimming pool really cost? Chlorinator, pump(s), pump house(?), plumbing, water heater, slip-proof apron edging, etc., etc., etc.

Here are some of the expenses I've thought up off the top of my head.

How much for the pool itself? We're probably looking at a smallish elongated type that would run horizontal to the back patio. We envision it a bit wider than a lap pool, but long enough to do some laps, but only about 3.5 - 4 feet deep.

Then there's the pavestone or concrete work.

Land movement and the already mentioned retaining wall that will likely be needed in any event.

A general contractor, architect, or some sort of knowledgeable landscape or hydraulic engineer that understands ALL the aspects of putting a lot more dirt next to the house. My main sewer line will be further buried, along with about 4 or 5 black corrugated plastic pipe diverter tubes that discharge the roof downspout water below the main grade below the fill the house sits upon.

Cost of extra water.

Cost of energy to heat extra water (thus, the green room post  ).

Cost of pool supplies. Chemical, vacuum, filters, poles, gadgets, etc. Anybody have a ballpark figure? Say, per month, or per year?

Increased homeowners' insurance premiums.

Property tax increase on top of the 28% that occurred last week.

A new fence that meets neighborhood standards (likely one of those black metal ones) to prevent neighborhood kids from drowning in my _attractive nuisance_ (legal term for swimming pool). 4x danger of death on property compared to keeping guns in the house. Possibility of someone drowning, and if a non-family member, the cost of a big lawsuit, win or lose. But I guess insurance is supposed to cover that, but it would be horrible if my next door neighbor's children, times 3, who are very precocious, might be injured or worse, one day when Mo was off on an extended and relaxing vacation in Florida... or something.

Additional mosquito abatement so we can use it in the summer. Although my current Mosquito Magnet Liberty might be enough if I changed the Octenol attractant cartridge as often as suggested.

Beefy pool drain to get pool water down the hill and out of the yard to prevent horrible erosion of the _fragile, ridge-side topsoil_ (as my city charter calls it), or chlorine contamination of the soil, when the pool is drained. How often do you have to drain a pool? Ever? Man, that's a lot of water! If so, I guess all that water just goes down the hill and into my mostly dry creek bed. Does that chlorine or bromine (or the newest fad, salt!) damage the ecosystem much?

Additional maintenance time needed for Mo to tend the pool, since he won't trust most people to do things right and hates strangers wandering around in his yard.

And perhaps most important of all, and maybe enough to justify this being on hearthnet (hehehe), lost real estate that would otherwise be used for processing firewood. 

So, that was long, but let me finish with one single question for you existing and previous pool owners. I ask this because a friend of mine with a pool once said to me, "Never again. Too much money and hassle!" Short and sweet from the one homeowner who volunteered that information many years back. Anyway, my final question if you don't feel like detailing your expenses from the bullets above:

If you have owned, or currently own, a swimming pool, is the joy equal to the expense and hassle? Would you do it again? Any big expenses I missed?

If a pool is to be installed, who should do it, and how many pro's should be involved to assure the house is on stable ground and well drained, the plumbing doesn't get screwed up, the pool won't move and crack the apron stone work or the pool itself, and all the things I'm probably not thinking about? Do I need a general contractor, an architect, a landscape engineer, a hydrologist, an ecologist (hehehe), or who else?

(Please, don't copy this entire post into yours...  )


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## wg_bent (Apr 2, 2007)

Well, that post was one Rhonemas could be proud of (length).    Anyway, We've had a pool now for about 4 years, and it became quickly apparent that the non-chlorine system was seriously expensive.  Now I only use about 2/3 of one of the (guessing here) 25lb containers of hockey puck size tablets a year.  I just put a couple in the filter basket and a floater that hangs around in the pool.  We went with a 52" as then you do not need a fence.  (the reason pool companies now push the 52" is that it's cheaper in the long run to install only a 52" pool vs a 48" pool and a 10k fence)

I'm not sure what the pump adds to electric costs, but you should seriously consider a timer.  Also, the more out pool is used the cleaner it stays.  let it sit for a week, and it gets dirty.  Kids swimming = a clean pool.  

Once it gets dirty, it takes time to vacuum and if really dirty, you need to add an algicide.  That's about 10 bucks a bottle.   I know people who really like salt water pools.  Claim they use almost no chemicals, and it's easier on the eyes.  Up front cost is very high for the equipment compared to just a filter.  Also, get a DE filter.  I can clean up my pool in about 1 day vs many many days for a sand filter.  And a bag of DE is pretty cheap.

Heater?  Isn't that what the Sun is for?   If it's not warm enough for the pool water to be comfortable, it's not worth swimming.


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## slowzuki (Apr 2, 2007)

Solar heating is the way to go if you have any south exposure.  Insulate the ground next to the liner and below.  Earlier and later swimming seasons.

I've only ever removed pools for people who just bought a house or are trying to sell one.  It really reduces the sale price of the average home.  I personally would like to try on of these new pond liner companies setups.  It looks like a backyard coy pond but it is really a small pool.  Don't know what the insurance companies think of those.

I've been in salt pools before, I think they have to be kept cooler for some reason, growth maybe, at least the one I was in was freezing.  It is neat how high you float and the water smells mucho better.


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## keyman512us (Apr 2, 2007)

MO:


> disruption of an otherwise peaceful life, and writing big checks (whew), Mrs. Mo Heat piles on and suggests that this might be a good time to consolidate those headaches with the installation of a swimming pool. Uhhhh, thanks Mrs. Mo! Great suggestion!? Where did I put the Mylanta? ;(



Better find the Mylanta...just out of curiousity..."How much 'socializing' do you and the Mrs. do?" (Good place to start a pool discussion). Having a pool from scratch is not only pricey...but often times not all that good of an 'investment'...9 out of 10 people I've talked to have said if they had to do it over again...they wouldn't bother...not because of the initial cost...or even the maint. and up-keep...just the simple fact...they don't get used all that much (Might have something to do with the fact most people have little free time these days?)


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## Mo Heat (Apr 3, 2007)

Well, so far I've written more than all the responses combined, but there is some GOOD info in those terse replies. Thanks y'all.

Me and the Mrs. don't socialize much. We are essentially suburban hermits. The world just seems too harsh for our delicate natures. 

It is surprising to me that a pool would actually reduce the value of a property, but that tells me a lot. Like there is a significant liability somewhere. Maybe insurance, upkeep, or something else. This is really good information.

I am also surprised that so many have even heard of the salt pool thing, let alone that they have tried it. One of my neighbors does that an when she had to drain her pool, her neighbor started complaining to anyone who would listen, including lawyers, who seem always interested as long as you are feeding coins into their slots. Seems her water gushes down into the rear of his yard. Salt water can't be too good for the landscaping!

Maintenance info is good. Thanks Warren.

I don't have much southern exposure. That was one of the things that I viewed as a negative. No solar heater, which seems like the only way to heat.

The "if I had it to do over again" is just what I was looking for. Thanks.

Keep those replies coming pool people. All other info is welcome. Thanks in advance.


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## webbie (Apr 3, 2007)

Think Hot Tub - and if you really want it hot (and don't like to spend $40 a month), a little wood water heater can fix that.

My opinion is that pools are perfect for someone else....my parents install one when I was 7 and we had many happy times with our friends and neighbors. But I didn't have to do anything except jump in. 

I think most folks "do it for the kids".

If you live in Fl. its another thing.....but given the short season and high cost.....

I'd say - calculate the total money cost per year - offer Ms. Mo to spend 1/2 of that on vacations (to VERY delicate places), and you'll be a winner in the game of life!

Webwidow is from the city - and when it was hot in NJ, she wanted me to get one of those $100 K-Mart things and put it in the backyard so that she and the dog would sit in it. In a rare display of male dominance, I put my foot down........I was NOT going to have my family seen wading in 5 foot diameter and 2 foot deep K-Mart plastic tub. Call me spoiled, call me high brow......but there is a line in the sand, and I draw it there.


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## slowzuki (Apr 3, 2007)

To be fair the salt water pool I swam in was not privately owned, it was part of a resort/park thing.  Salt is cheap though, a few $ a ton delivered by dumptruck.  Maybe put so much in it is precipitating out on the bottom so nothing grows in the pool.  Pickles anyone who gets in hehe.

Only guy I know who kept his pool only preps it for one weekend a year to have a party.  He got tired of all the work after 5 years.


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## Andre B. (Apr 3, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> ......I was NOT going to have my family seen wading in 5 foot diameter and 2 foot deep K-Mart plastic tub. Call me spoiled, call me high brow......but there is a line in the sand, and I draw it there.



I am guessing this idea is out.
http://www.cathy-moore.com/house/tub.html


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## Mo Heat (Apr 3, 2007)

Andre B. said:
			
		

> Webmaster said:
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Andre, That's hilarious. I like this sentence the best:

_If it gets too hot, I squirt in cold water from the garden hose for some classy jet action._

Craig, That's funny... But, uh, the kiddy pool idea was my plan 'b'.

Actually, I offered up a compromise plan of installing a hot tub on what might be a newly expanded patch of ground between the patio and where the potential new retaining wall might wind up. Strangely, Mrs. Mo has little interest in hot tubs. She likes the coolish water environment. And slowly, she seems to be succumbing to reason. Not an everyday event at the Mo Heat household.

In a flash of mental brilliance, I turned around one of her own admonishments to me from a week or two ago that seemed apropos. She had said to me, "Mo, do you realize we won't be living here forever. So you should start thinking of lightening the load. Meaning all the stuff you collected in the basement." She is a notorius anti-pack rat. After I reminded her of what she had said to me, I could almost see a light bulb switch on inside her brain. I think I got the best of that exchange and she may be coming to accept that a pool may not be in our future, and it might actually be the right decision for both of us.

Still, keep those ideas coming. The more the merrier.


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## wg_bent (Apr 3, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Think Hot Tub - and if you really want it hot (and don't like to spend $40 a month), a little wood water heater can fix that.
> 
> My opinion is that pools are perfect for someone else....my parents install one when I was 7 and we had many happy times with our friends and neighbors. But I didn't have to do anything except jump in.
> 
> ...



Yeah, we have it for the kids.  if no kids... I'd NEVER have a pool.


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## begreen (Apr 4, 2007)

I'm not trying to encourage or discourage the pool idea, but I am curious what the added insurance costs are. Some companies might consider them a serious liability. What will the investment do to your property value and taxes? How do local realtor's (really) consider them? Do they make the home easier or harder to sell?
How long has the earth moving been happening? Have your neighbor's noticed it too?


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## wg_bent (Apr 4, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to encourage or discourage the pool idea, but I am curious what the added insurance costs are. Some companies might consider them a serious liability. What will the investment do to your property value and taxes? How do local realtor's (really) consider them? Do they make the home easier or harder to sell?
> How long has the earth moving been happening? Have your neighbor's noticed it too?



Insurance (Liberty Mutual) hardly budged.  For me I think it was 60 bucks a year.  That's in case a tree falls on it or something. Around here a pool is a n asset, although an above ground is not a big one.  Even if I sold the place after about 7 grand of output for the pool I'd say a 1k increase in property value.  At and estimated 400k value, the pool is not even interesting.


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## elkimmeg (Apr 4, 2007)

the long and short of it pools are a lot of work.  fishing leaved ont finally getting the water clear and swimmable  $250 in chemicles every year,  
Add $20 to your electric bill for the pump then the cover last only 3 years All for an occasional dip my Kids have grown up and none live here 
 ITS a lot of work for floating around in  it occasionally. I think pools are best for the kids. the pool cost less that $ 5000 12 years ago but the deck all the way around it the landscaping and stone walls fence cost me too many hours to fathom going threw that again I could have  cut and split  a lot of wood if I used that time All told probably cost me 25k  
 Wopuld have been a lot more if I hired everything out and that includes the excavating done by me. At this point in life it is a PITA.

I prepare it every year as it is the center piece fo my wife"s herd and flower gardens. Now I am looking at replacing the fence Whiuch I custom built due to the terreced ground.

To answer  some of your questions there are a lot of additional cost and a lot of work involved.


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## Mo Heat (Apr 4, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to encourage or discourage the pool idea, but I am curious what the added insurance costs are. Some companies might consider them a serious liability. What will the investment do to your property value and taxes? How do local realtor's (really) consider them? Do they make the home easier or harder to sell?
> How long has the earth moving been happening? Have your neighbor's noticed it too?



Warren and elk, Thanks for the info.

BG, Insurance? Don't know. Prop value and taxes? Don't know. Realtors? I wouldn't believe what they told me.

Earth moving? I just noticed it affecting the deck (see: photo) this Spring, but it might have been happening for 3 years before that since I noticed the patio slabs moving for the last 3 years. Neighbors also moving? Don't know, but I don't think so. Their houses aren't quite as close to the edge of their hills (more fill) as mine. And each of them already has at least some sort of retaining wall. One has a nice one in an arc shape with a swingset in it. The other has at least 3 flower boxes: one about 15 feet long of RR ties, and two smaller ones of pavestone (windsor style). I suspect this is helping both of them. I have nothing like that where the house is moving. However, I do have some flower boxes behind the garage, but I haven't noticed anything moving over there. Of course, I haven't really been looking. I guess I'll give it a peak soon.

Why do you ask if they are moving, too? I mean, what would be the significance if we were all moving.

This is my first house. I've always been a renter. So this is kind of freaking me out. I'm not really sure what the next step is. I mean, who should I contact first? A landscape architect, or maybe some sort of engineer, for a really informed opinion? And after that, assuming I get a retaining wall, what to do about the deck? Can it be repaired without disassembly, re-footing the posts, and so forth?


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## Mo Heat (Apr 5, 2007)

I finally posted the photo in the previous post. It shows the nails separating from the deck joists (or whatever you call them).

Hey Elk, I wish you lived closer to me.


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## begreen (Apr 5, 2007)

We probably have a lot more earth movement that some areas. So when it moves, it's good to pay attention. Out here we get two types. The common one is mudslides. The soil starts liquifying there is clay substrata, it can give way quickly. The other thing is that we are in a geologically active area. If on a fault zone or near one, you want to pay attention to earth movement as it may get much worse, sometimes very quickly. 

But is that deck shot the only thing you are seeing? Could that possibly be wood shrinkage or are there other similar issues? And why isn't that joist sitting on a ledger or strapped in? I'm not a carpenter, but that doesn't look correctly done to me. Maybe Elk or Sandor will be able to give you a professional opinion.


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## wg_bent (Apr 5, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
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I can't picture if what's vertical and what's horizontal in the picture.  I'd at least get a joist hanger on that asap, and use screws not nails.  The fact that it's nails proves nothing about what is moving.    Can you back up a little and retake the picture?


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## Mo Heat (Apr 5, 2007)

Warren said:
			
		

> Can you back up a little and retake the picture?



I'll try to get another photo a bit farther back. 

Good suggestion on the hangers, too.


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## Mo Heat (Apr 5, 2007)

Okay. Here's a bit farther back. You're looking up at the bottom of the deck. The shot farthest back includes the middle post of the deck. Is that better?

(Dang it! I made them too big. The second photo will be in the next post.)


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## Mo Heat (Apr 5, 2007)

Second photo. A bit more zoomed in, and taken from the same spot as the last one.


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## Andre B. (Apr 5, 2007)

Are the posts still vertical?
I am guessing not.

At the very least I would prefer to see joust hangers. If I built it there would be 2x12s on the edge with ledger plates for the 2x6 jousts to sit on, don't like those metal brackets where you can see them, they do not hold stain like wood.


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## begreen (Apr 5, 2007)

Mo PM Elk and take more shots of the other end of those joists too. How is the outboard end of the deck supported? Have the piers sunk at all? 

It could be this is just poor construction. That would be a bummer, but remediable and a lot better than dealing with earth movement.


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## Mo Heat (Apr 5, 2007)

Andre, I wish I knew what you were talking about. Sounds like a good idea. The posts don't look vertical to me. I'll try to take a pic of them.

BG, Maybe bad construction and earth movement as the patio slabs are spreading, too. I'll try to get a pic. I'm not sure how to tell if the piers have sunk. I'll also try to get pics of the other end of the deck. Is that the outboard end? Or is the outboard end where the posts are, farthest away from the house? More pics coming...


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## Andre B. (Apr 5, 2007)

Last deck I helped a guy build was something like this.  He complained a bit that it was going to cost a bit more then the big box store super computer generated construction plans version. But he come around when I told him he could build it by himself any way he wanted. 
He also seemed to think using a chisel was old fashioned!!


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## begreen (Apr 6, 2007)

The outboard end is the furthest away from the house. I'd like to see how the deck joists are attached at the house side. What I am wondering is if the contractor put in the deck and patio on crappy fill without compacting the earth beneath it first. This is just speculation, but there is some evidence of corners being cut in the pictures so far.


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## webbie (Apr 8, 2007)

That deck looks like it can be fixed with:

1. A good sledge hammer - attempt to bang things partially back together.
2. Some good long screws or 1/4" lag bolts - following the same path as the current nails.
3. Joist hangers - these would do a great job!

You may have to remove the outer "band" on the end....not the big pressure treated things that the joists are connected to, but if there is a 1x or something else on the end...can't see from the pic. - actually, it just looks like 2 - 2x10's, in which case you don't need to remove anything.
The main job is really the hammer and the hangers.

This is a fairly easy repair for any carpenter......or even a good handyman or some friendly neighbors. Heck, if you were within a couple hours of up here, we'd easily be able to come over and "party on" with those sledges and get things repaired in no time.

The thing to remember is that this is not concrete - wood gives and moves very easily - both out of place and back into place.

Note - this repair does not consider the uprights, which I cannot see well. But that part is relatively easy also.
Some extra temporary uprights (double 2x4) would be a good idea while banging things back together.

And some things remain unsaid - like common sense. Don't bang the sledge directly on the wood - put a piece of wood or plywood over it first, etc.


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## DavidV (Apr 9, 2007)

Ok let me see.  I love our pool.  When my wife found the place the pool was one of the things that I didn't like.  I figured it was dangerous to our kids.  We've been here 5 years now.  It's great.  on a hot day there is nothing better than getting into the pool.  Especially after splitting wood or doing the lawn.  Chlorine is what I use.  It's a 16x32.  Holds 23,000 gallons.  I hardly have to add any water to it and only have to drain it partially a couple times per year.    When I say drain I mean if it's an inch or so above where it should be I'll take it down just to the top of the limit.  Maintenance isn't bad.  Cleaning the pool is rather zen like and quite relaxing.   The wife does most of the pool maintenace.  She's home with the kids most of the summer and they spend almost the whole day out there.
I had to replace the pool pump and the DE filter.  Pump was about 900 but that was before I started doing things myself.  cost of the pump itself would have been less than 400.  
Ours is vynil liner pool.  The liner was replaced a year before we bought the place at a cost of 4-5 K.  it should last 10-15 years.  Is ther ecost...yes.
Insurance is double what it would be without the pool
cost of Chemicals?  couple hundred a year.  
Electric to run the pump is definately noticable.
Sounds expensive when you put it all on paper.....but.  We used to have a membership at a pool.  400+ a year to swim in a big crowded over chlorinated pool surrounded by ill mannered "dirties".  Dropping huge amounts of money on snacks and every time you go is a huge production.  You have to stake out your chair space and watch your wallet the whole time.

Having your own pool is great.  Properly maitaining the water keeps if from being rough on your eyes. you want to take a quick dip...you do.  you want to spend the day by the pool, you do.  You want to jump in late at night, completely nekid.....you do.  and if Mrs Mo heat wants to give you a li8ttle "hey baby " action.....It's your pool.  Will you recover the cost?  nope never. but for me it's worth it.  Personal decision.


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## Mrs-GVA (Apr 10, 2007)

Mo,
Depends on the type of pool you plan on putting in, above ground or inground?  Inground holds the heat better.  Regarding costs, they differ where you are.  The cost to install a pool in the Northeast would be totally different then South.  Talk to some contractors, they can also give you an idea of the electricity and cost of the chemicals.  Once you have that basic information, check with your town for the taxes.  Yes your homeowners is going to go up, but as long as it is fenced in, you should be ok.  The amount of trees will also play a factor in sun exposure/water temp and I would imagine, would effect your chemicals.  But I could be wrong.

Personally, I would love a pool.....but then there would be no room for the three dogs to run.....so Mr. GVA says no to the pool :-S


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## GVA (Apr 10, 2007)

Mo the way that deck is built there is no support to the joists other than the Nails, which are not toenailed either (not that it would help in this case)
Wood will shrink... treated or not and the wood will pull away like that.
Hangers will help but IMO at this point you need to add more wood and maybe some cross bracing as Andre showed to help pull it together.
EDIT
This was the old school method my father taught me... before joist hangers were so readily available......
The conversion from cad to JPEG is not so good but you get the point.
this provides the required support and gives stability to the vertical and horizontal planes.....
You may beable to use this after the fact and then incorperate Andre's cross bracing to give the bottom support.

EDIT again
Actually kick that 6x6 to the right a bit I'm to lazy  to edit and reconvert the drawing.


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## Mo Heat (Apr 10, 2007)

GVA, I think you and Andre speak a secret language. One I wish I understood, but don't. I can't decipher that diagram. I did pick up one thing that seems clever. Add another 10 x 10 to bridge the gap. I am getting that. To do that though, I guess I'd have to prop all the joists up somehow (how?), bang the current 10 x 10 loose from them, slide in the additional 10 x 10, and reconnect things.

Still, it seems so, so much easier to just add some joist hangers. Is that not enough, or is that just a jerry rig?

Criag, great info. Thanks.
DAvidV, also great info. Thanks. "Hey baby action?" I like that. 
BG, I'll post some more pics when I get a chance. I'm running down tree service insurance crapola and doing taxes.


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## Mo Heat (Apr 10, 2007)

I think I'm misunderstanding some of the carpentry suggestions. Adding the 2 x 10 is probably not what was intended, at least not the way I was thinking about it. That would change the diminsions of the deck and not likely a good thing?

Here's some more photos showing potential hill movement. Note the vertical of the big 8 x 8 posts compared to the smaller 6 x 6 posts on the stairs. The 8 x 8's look like they are moving down the hill, to me.


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## Mo Heat (Apr 10, 2007)

Here's a look at the patio slabs. The smaller gap runs away from (perpendicular to) the house. The larger gap is parallel to the house. They were both the same when I moved in. I think the slabs are also moving ever so slowly down the hill. When I first noticed the gap widening I thought it was due to heaving, but I've changed my mind due to the slow and progressive widening of the gap.

The third photo is a side shot of the second photo to show the tipping of the slab as the gap has widened.

The last shot is the "inboard" side of the deck where it attaches to the house. The builder used joist hangers here (at least that's what I'm calling them these days).


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## Mrs-GVA (Apr 11, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> GVA, I think you and Andre speak a secret language. One I wish I understood, but don't.




Mo, you should try living with him!  Its taking years....but I'm finally understanding his language!   :lol:


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## GVA (Apr 11, 2007)

Mo my old school drawing is just a couple of 2X10 nailed to form an L with th support mounted below..... this allows the joists to drop in and rest on the bottom of the L.   The joist hangers do the same However you will need to pull those boards together. Look at the hangers on the house side 6 nails go straight into the ledger board and then 4 (2 each side) That toenail through the joist into the ledger board.
The theory behind that toenailing is that this joist can't pull away from the ledger since they are nailed at an angle.
If you put joist hangers up now those 4 toenails will not even go through the joist and it will keep seperating...
So either you need to sledge it like Web says, or you can add wood in various ways to give support underneath and help hold all the pieces together.
On a side note those posts that are tied together with the 2x8 at the bottom are those in footings or on piers?  If footings how deep are they? piers how is the post attached?
How big is the deck and what are the spacings on the posts spacing of joists etc.

You have some movement going on there, But stuff sitting on top (like the concrete patio slabs) move alot easier than something that has proper footings and down 4 feet.

Elk could probably give you a better / easier fix

Oh and Give the Dinosaur ruler back to the kids ;-P 

Hope this helps


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## jjbaer (Jun 18, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Andre, I wish I knew what you were talking about. Sounds like a good idea. The posts don't look vertical to me. I'll try to take a pic of them.
> 
> BG, Maybe bad construction and earth movement as the patio slabs are spreading, too. I'll try to get a pic. I'm not sure how to tell if the piers have sunk. I'll also try to get pics of the other end of the deck. Is that the outboard end? Or is the outboard end where the posts are, farthest away from the house? More pics coming...



Mo,

What Andre means (if we're talking about your deck problem) is this: if the earth is moving locally under the pier, it will shove the concrete peirs outward and take the vertical support posts "out of vertical"...this means the bottom of the post moves out, for example, 0.2 inches while the top stays pretty much as it was. When this happens, the post is no longer vertical but is tilted, in this case with the top of the post pointing (maybe imperceptibly) towards the house....to see if this is happening, get a "corner level" for about $6 at the store. It has a 90 deg edge to it so that you can put it on the corner of a beam..... It has two levels...one on each side. Put it on several posts (mark the place you put it on each beam using a pencil so you can return to that same spot later) and, using the level, "benchmark" how much each is leaning by observing how much each bubble has moved away from being level.....may be hard to do as I don't know how to measure each bubble other than to say "1/3 of a bubble lean to the left"...etc.....since you didn't do this before, don't get warped out of shape if it's not level.....it may have been level from day 1 but benchmark it now as a reference point and check it each week........over time you can tell if it's moving out of perpendicular....if the top of the post points more and more towards the house, the earth under the pier is probably moving down the hill ....if the top of the post points further and further towards the bottom of the hill, it probably means the top of the deck attached to the house is pulling away from the house relative to the pier or the earth under the house (but not the pier) is moving.....not likely as with that massive a movement, the pier will also move.  There are other combinations of movement but the two mentioned would seem to be the most likely......


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