# Plans finally coming together



## Medic21 (Apr 12, 2019)

Piece of chit SF1000 has been set in the shop for modifications in making it a conventional stove. 

Picked this up last Friday, 1 1/4” Thermopex.  






More pics Sunday after I pick up the boiler and install picks coming...


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## Mrpelletburner (Apr 12, 2019)

Don’t you wish you could get back the last 2 winters? I am 100% going in a different direction next season.

Good luck, will be watching from the side lines.


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## Medic21 (Apr 12, 2019)

Mrpelletburner said:


> Don’t you wish you could get back the last 2 winters? I am 100% going in a different direction next season.
> 
> Good luck, will be watching from the side lines.



There is no luck with this decision.  With discussions from members here and other places this is a VERY informed decision.  I’m picking up a Crown Royal MP7300 on Sunday.  The plan was always to install an OWB within the next 5 years.  HY-C just moved up my timeline a little sooner.  Not liking the amount invested in doing this, no UTV for me yet but, it will be worth it.


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## Medic21 (Apr 14, 2019)

Loaded up for a three hour drive home.


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## sloeffle (Apr 14, 2019)

I was on their web site yesterday. The OWB you are buying looks to be a gasifier ? It definitely would be nice to have all of the mess outside and not have to C/S/S so much


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## Medic21 (Apr 14, 2019)

sloeffle said:


> I was on their web site yesterday. The OWB you are buying looks to be a gasifier ? It definitely would be nice to have all of the mess outside and not have to C/S/S so much



It’s the multi pass not a gasser.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 14, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> There is no luck with this decision.  With discussions from members here and other places this is a VERY informed decision.  I’m picking up a Crown Royal MP7300 on Sunday.  The plan was always to install an OWB within the next 5 years.  HY-C just moved up my timeline a little sooner.  Not liking the amount invested in doing this, no UTV for me yet but, it will be worth it.



I've been lurking reading the HY-C horror stories from the sidelines. I browse the boiler room out of curiosity. These setups are really neat, but way too much heat for my needs. Anyway, good luck to you. My UTV budget got eaten up by more pressing matters as well


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## SpaceBus (Apr 14, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> It’s the multi pass not a gasser.


Seems like the best of both worlds. Do these models have a lot of smoke or is it pretty much like a normal indoor EPA Wood Stove?


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## Medic21 (Apr 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Seems like the best of both worlds. Do these models have a lot of smoke or is it pretty much like a normal indoor EPA Wood Stove?


I’m sure they are just like anything else.  Burn them wrong and they will be calling the fire department for a possible structure fire.  Do it right and, while not as efficient and a gasser, I’m sure it will be fairly clean.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 14, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> I’m sure they are just like anything else.  Burn them wrong and they will be calling the fire department for a possible structure fire.  Do it right and, while not as efficient and a gasser, I’m sure it will be fairly clean.


I read on their website 99% efficiency for the gassifier version, that's nuts


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## maple1 (Apr 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I read on their website 99% efficiency for the gassifier version, that's nuts



Haven't seen the website but that is a hokey number.


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## Medic21 (Apr 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I read on their website 99% efficiency for the gassifier version, that's nuts



CB has the highest claimed I have seen ever at 85% and there is no way that is achieved on a regular basis.  Some of the temp monitoring to reaction chamber temps vs flue temps the math says 80% would be about average in any of them.  And that is unbelievable for a wood burning hydronic heater.


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I read on their website 99% efficiency for the gassifier version, that's nuts



that's combustion efficiency, IIRC....pretty much a useless number.


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## E Yoder (Apr 15, 2019)

Agree, most gassers are under 80%. Otherwise you'd have to condense the exhaust gasses. 99% just means it burns up all the wood cleanly, 1% leaves as smoke. 
Look up the list of compliant EPA hydronic heaters to get real efficiency numbers. 
I spent a couple of days in a test lab a few years ago watching some testing on some non-gassers, was surprised how much efficiency varied depending on loading practises.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 15, 2019)

E Yoder said:


> Agree, most gassers are under 80%. Otherwise you'd have to condense the exhaust gasses. 99% just means it burns up all the wood cleanly, 1% leaves as smoke.
> Look up the list of compliant EPA hydronic heaters to get real efficiency numbers.
> I spent a couple of days in a test lab a few years ago watching some testing on some non-gassers, was surprised how much efficiency varied depending on loading practises.



OP, sorry for thread jacking! How efficient were the non gassers testing? Most of my reading has been on gassifier boilers, especially the natural draft gassifier.


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## maple1 (Apr 15, 2019)

I doubt very much there was any testing of non-gassers, using similar testing methods, that had results available to see. But if there were I'd be interested in seeing them also.

I would doubt many would be over 50%. Off the cuff feeling....


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## Eureka (Apr 15, 2019)

E Yoder said:


> I spent a couple of days in a test lab a few years ago watching some testing on some non-gassers, was surprised how much efficiency varied depending on loading practises.



@E Yoder do you know any of the approximate efficiency numbers you remember seeing?


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## Woodman1 (Apr 15, 2019)

The last year or so I was using my non gasser owb I did some small weighted burns that never put it into idle. Repeat tests put it in the low 30's. That was with seasoned wood. It also was a multi pass style owb

If anything that was an optimistic figure.  This was the first full season with my EKO and 1000 gallons of storage. I used way less than half of what I was burning.


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## Medic21 (Apr 15, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> OP, sorry for thread jacking! How efficient were the non gassers testing? Most of my reading has been on gassifier boilers, especially the natural draft gassifier.



Always a place for a good discussion. 

I have spoke to a lot of people that have switched from a smoke generator conventional like a CB Classic, Woodmaster, etc to one of these Multi Pass or similar like the C or MF series from Heatmaster.  There are no hard numbers but to a person they have used almost 50% less wood in one year.

I am going this route because I will be able to burn coal if needed. If I injure myself through my job or something else happens it will be nice to have that back up.


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## E Yoder (Apr 16, 2019)

What I remember (it's been 5+ years ago) on efficiency numbers was that they varied from 30-60%. I was surprised how much loading practises, moisture, wood size, etc.  affected the numbers. 
Key thing with a conventional was not overloading for 24 hour+ burns, better to aim for 12 hour burn, leaving some room in the top of the firebox above the fuel load for gasses to burn off. Don't force the long flames against the water jacket. The low efficiency numbers would represent the careless user that burns with ash choking the grates, slow smokey burn, jammed full of wood. 
A multi-pass conventional can do pretty good with a smart operator, not so good used foolishly. 
That's where a gasser shines, it has a very controlled consistent reburn.


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## Eureka (Apr 16, 2019)

I have noticed some of those same things on my Heatmaster C series.  If I pack it to the ceiling it smokes more and seems to take longer to recover.  Leaving some room for reburn over the fire helps a lot with that and I have opened the door during a hot burn and witnessed some good blue flame secondary action happening in the baffle area on top.  I think that only happens during a longer heat cycle on a properly loaded firebox though. If I fill it 1/3-1/2 full and leave some room at the front for air to get up through the grates I get hardly any smoke at all; just a heat signature.  The fire is very intense, almost white flame color, at the grate level with the fan running on a proper load.
Same thing with the ash pan, I keep it clean and empty it out every couple days.  It's too easy not to and makes the furnace work much better as in faster recovery and less smoke.  My ash doubles as an awesome traction aid/snow melt on my driveway in winter.
Flue temps (measured 16-20" up the stack) usually settle somewhere in the 5-700 range with the multi-pass area cleaned out and I notice they climb a little when it's time to clean.  I tried removing all the baffles and running it during a cleaning and saw flue temp up into the 1200-1300 range .  Goes to show how well this simple multi-pass exchanger works.  I think you'll be very happy with your Crown Royal stove @Medic21.  They have gone a step further with the heat exchange area and sound like a great company as well.  I believe they have the most efficient non-gasifier out there.


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## Medic21 (Apr 16, 2019)

Eureka said:


> I have noticed some of those same things on my Heatmaster C series.  If I pack it to the ceiling it smokes more and seems to take longer to recover.  Leaving some room for reburn over the fire helps a lot with that and I have opened the door during a hot burn and witnessed some good blue flame secondary action happening in the baffle area on top.  I think that only happens during a longer heat cycle on a properly loaded firebox though. If I fill it 1/3-1/2 full and leave some room at the front for air to get up through the grates I get hardly any smoke at all; just a heat signature.  The fire is very intense, almost white flame color, at the grate level with the fan running on a proper load.
> Same thing with the ash pan, I keep it clean and empty it out every couple days.  It's too easy not to and makes the furnace work much better as in faster recovery and less smoke.  My ash doubles as an awesome traction aid/snow melt on my driveway in winter.
> Flue temps (measured 16-20" up the stack) usually settle somewhere in the 5-700 range with the multi-pass area cleaned out and I notice they climb a little when it's time to clean.  I tried removing all the baffles and running it during a cleaning and saw flue temp up into the 1200-1300 range .  Goes to show how well this simple multi-pass exchanger works.  I think you'll be very happy with your Crown Royal stove @Medic21.  They have gone a step further with the heat exchange area and sound like a great company as well.  I believe they have the most efficient non-gasifier out there.



My plan was a C series based on the cost difference.  What I see as a gain in efficiency is minimal between the two.  When this deal, used 3 months for a significant discount, dropped in my lap I went with it.  I agree it looks to be a little better based on the secondary air injection and water jacket in the multi pass area.  I’m excited to get the install completed.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 16, 2019)

That's quite impressive for an inherently inefficient water cooled firebox. I can see being able to fairly efficiently burn any type of biomass without smoke to be a great benefit to this style of boiler.


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## Eureka (Apr 16, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> That's quite impressive for an inherently inefficient water cooled firebox. I can see being able to fairly efficiently burn any type of biomass without smoke to be a great benefit to this style of boiler.


I am very happy with mine.  But it's worth saying that there is still periodically smoke, just much less than some of the simpler units I've been around.  As E Yoder said, loading practices are a big variable.  I loaded it with too much junk and scraps the first few times and it was pumping out smoke like a train.  10 minutes after loading however, it clears up and smoke is minimal.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 16, 2019)

Eureka said:


> I am very happy with mine.  But it's worth saying that there is still periodically smoke, just much less than some of the simpler units I've been around.  As E Yoder said, loading practices are a big variable.  I loaded it with too much junk and scraps the first few times and it was pumping out smoke like a train.  10 minutes after loading however, it clears up and smoke is minimal.



Even gassifiers smoke at startup, my little EPA stove smokes at startup. That's to be expected. I didn't know it was possible to operate a traditional OWB without loads of smoke, which is the only way I've ever seen them.


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## Eureka (Apr 16, 2019)

Yep anything can look like a circus if run by a clown


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## Medic21 (May 7, 2019)

Finally dried out enough to do some digging.  Have to seal everything on the basement wall tomorrow but, it’s a good feeling to have it in the ground.


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## Medic21 (May 8, 2019)

I rented a core drill and it took a chit on me. Sledge to the rescue.  I also ran a 30amp service to set a plug by the boiler for my camper, I’ll be setting a post with a small outdoor breaker box to feed the boiler and power to the shed I’ll put up beside it.


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## huffdawg (May 19, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> I rented a core drill and it took a chit on me. Sledge to the rescue.  I also ran a 30amp service to set a plug by the boiler for my camper, I’ll be setting a post with a small outdoor breaker box to feed the boiler and power to the shed I’ll put up beside it.
> 
> View attachment 243996
> View attachment 243997



I ended up using a set up that looks like chainsaw with a water hose connected to it for cooling and dust remediation. It worked quite well ,expensive chain though.


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## Medic21 (May 19, 2019)

huffdawg said:


> I ended up using a set up that looks like chainsaw with a water hose connected to it for cooling and dust remediation. It worked quite well ,expensive chain though.



I had a hydraulic driven one when I did excavating.  Was nice for using in confined spaces where a gas engine would kill you.  Other than that I really though they were more problems than what they were worth.


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## Medic21 (Jul 17, 2019)

Concrete coming Friday morning.  I think it’s only supposed to be 97 degrees with 100% humidity.  I ran patrols in Iraq in 120+ degree and I’m dreading it. 


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## SpaceBus (Jul 17, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> View attachment 245768
> 
> 
> View attachment 245769
> ...



At least you have a pool to cool off in! Are you going to use this boiler to heat the pool as well?


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## Medic21 (Jul 17, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> At least you have a pool to cool off in! Are you going to use this boiler to heat the pool as well?



I do plan on it.  I’m going to make a line set to do it.  4” field tile, pex, and foam insulation.  I’ll roll it out when I want it and roll it back up and store in the barn when I don’t.  I refitted a bunch of air compressors years back and have about 20 sets of 1 1/4” brass quick connects for airlines.  Figure out a way to use those. 


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## SpaceBus (Jul 17, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> I do plan on it.  I’m going to make a line set to do it.  4” field tile, pex, and foam insulation.  I’ll roll it out when I want it and roll it back up and store in the barn when I don’t.  I refitted a bunch of air compressors years back and have about 20 sets of 1 1/4” brass quick connects for airlines.  Figure out a way to use those.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That's awesome. My wife and I are going to build a barn and we plan to heat it with wood. I told my wife about the natural draft wood boiler and she is very interested. Until I joined the hearth forums I didn't know all the things you could do with wood heat. She was thrilled to realize we could heat a barn, greenhouse, and pool/hot tub fairly inexpensively with wood.


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## Medic21 (Jul 17, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> That's awesome. My wife and I are going to build a barn and we plan to heat it with wood. I told my wife about the natural draft wood boiler and she is very interested. Until I joined the hearth forums I didn't know all the things you could do with wood heat. She was thrilled to realize we could heat a barn, greenhouse, and pool/hot tub fairly inexpensively with wood.



If you figure time in that and what it’s worth I can actually hear with propane cheaper right now.  

Hell the MS660 cost more than a winters worth of propane.  Then there is the 461,441,362,291.  Not to mention a grand for a splitter 10k for the boiler, another 3k on instal.  My furnace, 95% and central air system was under 7k installed including ductwork.  

Takes a long time to get a return on the investment. 


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## woodey (Jul 17, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> I ran patrols in Iraq i


Thanks for your service and good luck on
the rest of your project!


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## SpaceBus (Jul 18, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> If you figure time in that and what it’s worth I can actually hear with propane cheaper right now.
> 
> Hell the MS660 cost more than a winters worth of propane.  Then there is the 461,441,362,291.  Not to mention a grand for a splitter 10k for the boiler, another 3k on instal.  My furnace, 95% and central air system was under 7k installed including ductwork.
> 
> ...



Propane is popular here, but wouldn't work for our situation. It sounds like you live in a less rural setting. I need a bunch of saws anyway for land management. My house and property has no infrastructure for anything other than wood. It's all situation and preference. I'm sure you will enjoy heating with wood far more than propane!


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## Medic21 (Jul 18, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Propane is popular here, but wouldn't work for our situation. It sounds like you live in a less rural setting. I need a bunch of saws anyway for land management. My house and property has no infrastructure for anything other than wood. It's all situation and preference. I'm sure you will enjoy heating with wood far more than propane!



I’m in the middle of nowhere.  I’ve always heated with wood.  


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## Medic21 (Jul 19, 2019)

I’m whooped

I used to do this everyday and I’ve gone soft...


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## Medic21 (Jul 19, 2019)

Was able to finish it today, set up quick with 110 heat index.  Pulled forms, back filled with stone.  Let it set till Thursday and then set the boiler. 


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## Medic21 (Jul 22, 2019)

Finally set in place. Now on to plumbing...


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## salecker (Jul 24, 2019)

Crown Royal ....
That was what i used to drink...
Got into some hot water a time or two because of Crown Royal...


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## Highbeam (Jul 25, 2019)

Do you bolt that thing to the slab?


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## Medic21 (Jul 25, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Do you bolt that thing to the slab?



I have not found anything that says I have to.  


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## Highbeam (Jul 25, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> I have not found anything that says I have to.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I just saw the drill and thought you were dropping red heads in. It should be heavy enough to not blow away!


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## Medic21 (Jul 27, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I just saw the drill and thought you were dropping red heads in. It should be heavy enough to not blow away!



That is my 1/4 inch impact driver.  Was taking the back off to set the pipes in place. 


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## Medic21 (Aug 22, 2019)

Pump and outside electrical installed. 


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## maple1 (Aug 22, 2019)

It might not, but I see some airlock potential in that high spot above the pump.


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## Medic21 (Aug 22, 2019)

maple1 said:


> It might not, but I see some airlock potential in that high spot above the pump.



I kinda wondered the same thing.  With a 26-99 pump that close I don’t think it will be an issue.  The pump curve on that is right around 20 gpm with the 1 1/4” ID Thermopex.  I think realistically I’ll be around 15 gpm when I figure head loss on the system.   I don’t think with that kinda flow it will happen.  


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## maple1 (Aug 23, 2019)

You could maybe T in a T up there with a valve on the stub. To let air out if ever needed. Or help with purging lines if needed.

Like I say, might never have to, but it's what my mind is picturing. I suspect if it does airlock you could hook a house pressure hose on in the house & force it out - maybe? I have had airlocks work into my upstairs zones when I had my non-bladder expansion tank going. Over time. It wasn't a huge deal to purge it out and fix, but a PITA none the less. I have little bleeders up there but don't want to touch them - at this point and their age they likely wouldn't stop bleeding even after I turned them off again.


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## Medic21 (Aug 27, 2019)

Hope to have this finished, mounted, primary loop hooked up, and filled tomorrow. 


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## Medic21 (Aug 28, 2019)

Ready for inside plumbing






Fill line






Added outside faucet. 




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## Medic21 (Aug 31, 2019)

It’s alive and making hot water.  

No load on it.  Fired it to expand the water out and “boil” dissolved oxygen out.  Will add additive first of the week and shut her back down.  

Burns very clean for a non gasser and I’m stoked.  Bring on winter. 


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## Medic21 (Sep 21, 2019)

I will be ready to roll Friday if nothing changes.


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## maple1 (Sep 21, 2019)

No heat exchanger? Or is there one at the boiler?


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## Medic21 (Sep 21, 2019)

maple1 said:


> No heat exchanger? Or is there one at the boiler?



The heat exchangers will be at each zone.  One plate for domestic hot water on the first zone.  The second pump will go to the heat exchanger in the plenum for the house then to a 30,000btu hanging heater in the basement.  The third when I install that will be a 50,000 btu hanging heater in the garage with a bypass to a 130,000 btu exchanger for the pool.  Completely open system.  

This is way over built for flow from the outdoor boiler.  I had too many exchangers to run in series and have anything left at the end and running two line sets 100 feet would have been less cost effective than one 1 1/4” ID Thermopex with a 26-99 pump for the primary loop and 15-58 pumps on the secondary zones.


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## maple1 (Sep 22, 2019)

Ah ok, was thinking hydronic system,  not hot air.


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## Medic21 (Sep 22, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Ah ok, was thinking hydronic system,  not hot air.



I may add that to my upstairs later.  It’s the typical old farm house that the upstairs stays colder.


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## Medic21 (Sep 28, 2019)

Finished install.  Had a hiccup with a bad 26-99 pump that got warranted.  System is filled and bled.  

on a 48hr shift and I’ll start batch burning Monday for hot water. Looks like heating at night will start next week. I’ll post a review in the next month. Excited to see how this will go.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 28, 2019)

Holy copper cave batman! 
You must have a fortune in that...and enough soldering hours to be a journeyman plumber! Looks like nice work!


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## Medic21 (Sep 28, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Holy copper cave batman!
> You must have a fortune in that...and enough soldering hours to be a journeyman plumber! Looks like nice work!



believe it or not when buying 20’ sticks of type L copper it’s actually only about 30%-50% more over pex. The valves are cheaper, the fittings are actually cheaper for copper than the brass in pex. Sweat valves, unions, and other fixtures are cheaper than pex or FPT with fittings

It was only 2lbs of solder and 3 B tanks of acetylene. 

I learned how to sweat pipe when I was 12 or 13 because dad and grandpa couldn’t fit under grandmas bathroom.  I had fun.


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## sloeffle (Sep 29, 2019)

Nice looking install. I'm sure it will be nice to have all of the mess outside too.


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## Medic21 (Sep 29, 2019)

sloeffle said:


> Nice looking install. I'm sure it will be nice to have all of the mess outside too.



The number one reason I did this project.  I’ll sleep better at night and feel more comfortable when I go to work not worrying About burning down the house.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 29, 2019)

Yeah probably doesn't reflect real well when a FD member burns his house down!   
Of course just getting rid of a certain "fire hazard" would have to help mitigate that risk a lot ...


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## salecker (Sep 30, 2019)

Medic21 said:


> The number one reason I did this project.  I’ll sleep better at night and feel more comfortable when I go to work not worrying About burning down the house.


That's the number one reason my heating system lives in it's own building.
No chance of carbon monoxide poisoning
Volunteer fire department. 
And last but not least,no insurance


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## Medic21 (Oct 1, 2019)

It’s running,  89 degrees out today with a high of 64 Friday.  I am making hot water for the house.  Plan on batch burning until it’s needed for heat in the next 2 weeks.  I will probably turn AC off Thursday night.


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## Mrpelletburner (Oct 25, 2019)

Just checking in... how is the new setup working out?


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## Medic21 (Oct 25, 2019)

Mrpelletburner said:


> Just checking in... how is the new setup working out?



really well.  There is enough hot copper in the basement no heater will be needed down there.  It’s hard to keep it lit  right now because it goes so long between needing to run.


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