# Very poor draw in chimney, need advice!



## mishathewizard (Jun 24, 2014)

Hey folks,
we have an old Pioneer princess brand Mennonite  cook stove bought in the late 80's early 90's. It's a great stove and used to work very good.

Short version:
Basically we had a 9 inch square pipe, and now we have a 6 inch round pipe and the stove often won't draw adequately. By this I mean it fills the kitchen with smoke. Humid, hot days are the worst and happen often enough that I need to come up with a solution. Even in the winter when the fire box lid is open lots of smoke escapes.


I have recently read about draw collars and would maybe consider this. However, is there not a solution that does not require electricity? 

Any advice would be appreciated! 
Thanks in advance.

Long version:
This stove was the second stove put into this particular chimney and we were never able to set it up quite correctly. The stove pipe has an awkward angle which fed into a brick lined 9 inch clay (square) chimney which then rises approx. 25 feet. Years ago we had a chimney fire and the clay chimney was damaged. Last year we eventually shoved a 6 inch stove pipe down the chimney to replace the clay square pipe.


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## HotCoals (Jun 24, 2014)

Oh boy.

First off it should be a 6" stainless steel flexible liner in there not "pipe"...some will say it prolly should be a insulated liner also.

Pics would go a long ways.


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## bholler (Jun 24, 2014)

Well to start what type of liner did you put in?  How did you hook up the bottom?  What size it the outlet on the stove? When was it last cleaned? We need more details to give you much feedback


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## Have maul will travel (Jun 24, 2014)

Short answer: No
Long answer: Heck no, and forget about the draw collar too.

If I understand you correctly, the stove worked well with a 9" square chimney (actually the clay tiles are the flue, the surrounding brick structure is the chimney), years ago.  The 9 inch square was effectively replaced with a brand new 6 inch round stovepipe, all else remained the same and the stove did not draw adequately even after it had heated up in the winter time.

If there are no obstructions in the stove itself or its connections to the new stovepipe that can be removed by cleaning etc, then I'm afraid you may be out of luck.

There is nothing one can do to make brand new stovepipe draw better without assistance of some sort. (Sweeping can help a used one but I got the impression this one did not work from the get-go)

You can make it significantly taller, significantly straighter or, more to the point, significantly larger, like your 9 inch square was.

The draw collar would improve your initial draft by preheating the chimney, but if your stove has run for a while with a good burn thus heating up your chimney and your draft is still not good enough then the draw collar is unlikely to help you much at all.

You can replace the 6 inch pipe with a 7 or 8 inch liner and hope for the best, or install a new chimney or possibly a different stove. 

According to the internet the new pioneer princess requires a 7 inch round flue, I'm guessing that yours does too.

I would not much appreciate receiving this advice, heck, I didn't even like giving it.  So I'll admit you are the better person.

I'm sorry I'm more like a sooty old stovepipe than a ray of sunshine, perhaps others can prove me a fool, I hope so.


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## bholler (Jun 25, 2014)

I think have maul may be right but i also think we need some more detailed info before jumping to some of the conclusions he has made


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## Have maul will travel (Jun 25, 2014)

bholler said:


> I think have maul may be right but i also think we need some more detailed info before jumping to some of the conclusions he has made


I think more information is always a good thing and leads to better conclusions.
I did try to list the assumptions I made that led to my leaps, e.g. no obstructions in stove or connections, stovepipe working poorly from the get-go and after being heated up by decent fire, no changes to system other than reduction in flue size, etc.
I would be interested in the stove's outlet size and the very first thing I would do is to check the stove itself and its dampers for obstructions but other than that can you think of any way to improve the draw of a cookstove chimney/flue besides making it taller, straighter or larger?


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## begreen (Jun 25, 2014)

For sure this chimney must have a *stainless steel* liner. Stove pipe is not to be used in a chimney. Can you post some pictures of the installation so that we can possibly spot other issues? For example we would be looking for how many 90 deg turns there are in the flue path. Also, have you checked the stove's oven bypass damper to confirm that it is working properly and open on stove startup?


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## bholler (Jun 25, 2014)

Have maul will travel said:


> I think more information is always a good thing and leads to better conclusions


Yes i was not meaning to say your assumptions were wrong i think they may very well be right.  I just don't like to give people that bad of news without getting better details to be more sure.  From what they said it sounds like they used stove pipe but i have hear many people call actual liners stove pipe before as well so lets see if the op comes back


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## Have maul will travel (Jun 25, 2014)

bholler said:


> Yes i was not meaning to say your assumptions were wrong i think they may very well be right.  I just don't like to give people that bad of news without getting better details to be more sure.  From what they said it sounds like they used stove pipe but i have hear many people call actual liners stove pipe before as well so lets see if the op comes back


Sure, I can understand that and agree with it too.  I just don't like to see people throw good money after bad on draw collars or chimney sweeps if there is a structural problem with their system.  I know how tempting it is to believe that just a little more money spent will make everything better.


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## bholler (Jun 25, 2014)

Oh yeah the draw collar is a no go for sure they just mask a problem not a fix at all.  But paying a good sweep to come out is not a waste of money at all they should be able to tell them what is wrong.  But i am a sweep so of course i would say that lol.


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## mishathewizard (Jun 25, 2014)

Ok, I will upload pictures tomorrow. In the meantime I will give more information.

Yes the flue has several 90's in it however I am certain our stove functioned very effectively until we downsized the flue. 
It is indeed a liner that we used, 6 inch diameter.
We clean our stove often, it has no blocks as far as I know. 
The stoves outlet size is 8 inches. Here is the flue path:

Rises from stove at 45 degrees into a 90 degree elbow (now horizontal).
into chimney and decrease to 6 inches followed by a 90 degree turn strait up and rises fore approx 25 feet.

I should also mention that we are surrounded by trees that have increased in height over the years and could possibly affect draw as well.

Increasing the liner would be difficult. We tried a 7 inch but it would not fit due to excessive damage to the previous square tile flue (some are slightly crooked creating ridges.

Thanks for everyone's replies! This is very helpful and I will get pictures tomorrow.


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## begreen (Jun 25, 2014)

Knowing the stove worked well and that you are experienced running it helps a lot. Do you know the make and model of the stove? In general, choking down a stove from 8 to 6" is not recommended. It may take smashing out the tile chimney liner so that an 8" stainless liner can be installed.


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## bholler (Jun 25, 2014)

Yeah i think break out is probably called for in this case.  You say you clean the stove often How often do you clean the flue.  BY breaking out i am sure you will be able to fit 7" and probably 8".  But not 8 with insulation which it really should have.  Also you say a 90 at the bottom of the liner is that a 90 or a tee?  Regardless i think your problem is probably from downsizing.  Humid hot days are going to be hard to get it going no matter what though stoves just don't like to run well in those conditions


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## begreen (Jun 26, 2014)

Is the 9" tile measurement ID or OD?


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## mellow (Jun 26, 2014)

Did you use black stove pipe or shiny stainless steel?

 At 25 feet in the winter I would think you wouldn't have as much issues, but if that exhaust is for 8" and you are necking it down to 6" it might just be telling you it needs more circumference to hold the volume of smoke it puts out.  Since you had a chimney fire I am sure your tiles have cracks in them, which by code forces you to install an insulated stainless steel liner, home insurance companies will look for this kind of stuff if the house catches fire due to the cook stove.


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## valley ranch (Jun 26, 2014)

How about an 8" pipe inside the chimney, that should give you plenty draw and volume. The chimney should, look it over good, give plenty insulation between the pipe and flammable material.


We inspected a well, at a property we own, by lowering a water proof camera into the well, putting the memory card into a laptop and watching the video. That will work to have a look at the chimney. Have a good day.

Richard

You mentioned there are several ells, like to know more about that.


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## Have maul will travel (Jun 26, 2014)

mishathewizard said:


> Ok, I will upload pictures tomorrow. In the meantime I will give more information.
> 
> Yes the flue has several 90's in it however I am certain our stove functioned very effectively until we downsized the flue.
> It is indeed a liner that we used, 6 inch diameter.
> ...




When you say you clean the stove often, do you mean the outside or do you ever inspect the damper operation and the passageways for air and smoke travel through the inside of the stove?

If you live a charmed life then mice etc. may have built a nest in these air passageways while the stove was not being used blocking the air flow or a damper may be stuck open or closed inhibiting proper operation.  I'm not sure what would be involved in inspecting this on your stove, but I would try to check this out first. 

The 8 inch outlet size on the stove does not bode well though, nor does the fact that the current Pioneer Princess requires a 7 inch round flue.

I would seriously consider a new chimney at this point.

If your 6 inch liner is insulated stainless steel I might instead consider a different stove, the Baker's Choice (a smaller model made by the same company as the Pioneer Princess) has a 7 inch oval flue which I think is equivalent to a 6 inch round (although I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that).

The fact that you have already had a chimney fire suggests to me that you want an insulated liner no matter what your code says.

I have no experience with breaking up clay flue tiles inside a chimney, but it sounds to me like there is a risk of damaging the structural brick, possibly leading to the chimney falling on your house.  Whatever you are swinging around in there to break the clay tile seems likely to hit the brick at times as well which risks cracking it or loosening the mortar and leading to trouble down the line.  This is probably more of a risk with some chimneys than with others but it is something to be thought about. 

I'm sorry that I can think of no likely, cheap, options to make your system work better.  Chimney fires often ruin more than just chimneys so I guess there is still something to be thankful for.  Sweeping chimneys is important.  Just because I didn't think it would help a new pipe draw better does not mean I don't think chimney sweeping is important for those who burn wood.  I sweep my chimney at least once and often twice a year.


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## bholler (Jun 27, 2014)

code says that unless you have a 1" airspace from the exterior of the masonry to combustible materials for an exterior chimney or 2" space for an interior chimney the liner needs to be insulated.  I have never seen anything about condition of the tiles in any code book or liner install instructions.  Breaking tiles is not that big of a deal if you have the right equipment and experience i would not recommend it for a homeowner.  We break out for about half of the liners we do with very few issues and we have never had a chimney damaged structurally.   My main thought for having a sweep there was to inspect for safety and predominance issues not necessarily to clean it. 



valley ranch said:


> How about an 8" pipe inside the chimney, that should give you plenty draw and volume. The chimney should, look it over good, give plenty insulation between the pipe and flammable material.


No the chimney will not give enough insulation with out the required air space i would be very careful due to the fact that they have already had at least 1 chimney fire and there is more than likely already pyrolysis going on if there is inadequate clearances.
Regardless they will need to break out the tiles in order to fit an 8" liner and then there will hopefully be enough room to get proper insulation in there if not it is time for a new chimney or a new stove.


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## mishathewizard (Jun 29, 2014)

Two corrections:
this is a Pioneer Maid cook stove and the interior diameter of the previous clay flue was 8 inches not 9.

How does one go about smashing a tile flue without damaging the bricks. This brick chimney houses 2 flues; one is from a masonry stove and the other is for the cook stove.

We clean the entire inside of the stove every 3 weeks (now that it burns dirty) and the flue once a year.

The previous chimney fire was the result of a mistake. I am not worried about another anytime soon. This stove is the only heat source in our house, and heats our water which means we have an investment in making sure it is clean and safe. The problem is the poor draw. The cause is because we were forced to reduce the flue from 8 inches to 6. The Solution is maybe smash tiles out to make space for a larger liner, build a new chimney, or get a new stove.

Thanks for the ideas folks!


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## bholler (Jun 29, 2014)

That setup doesn't look bad from what i can see.  Breaking out the tiles like i said before is not hard if you have the equipment and experience.  Also being a dual flue chimney it might not be a good option at all.  I think you need to get a good certified sweep out to evaluate it.  Because if there will not be room for an insulated 8" liner then you need to figure out if you want a new stove or a new chimney.  Again I don't think tile breakout is a diy job especially in a multi flue chimney


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## begreen (Jun 29, 2014)

Has the stove always been run with the hot water heater on the stove? That is going to further cool down flue gases. 

You said there is a masonry stove flue, but that the cook stove is the sole source of heat. Is the masonry heater not functional?


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## Have maul will travel (Jun 29, 2014)

I think you have summed it up pretty well.
I would call a few chimney folks out for estimates.  They could presumably give you more details as to exactly what options are available to you in your area (I take it Hamilton means Ontario) so that you may once again have a reliable, smoke free, source of heat and hot water in the near future.  Best of luck!


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## Jotulover (Jan 15, 2015)

bholler said:


> Oh yeah the draw collar is a no go for sure they just mask a problem not a fix at all.  But paying a good sweep to come out is not a waste of money at all they should be able to tell them what is wrong.  But i am a sweep so of course i would say that lol.



Not sure what you mean by masking the problem in my experience the Draw Collar solves problems with chimneys that aren't or can't be installed in an optimal location, basements with negative pressure, a few 90's with a long horizontal run, extremely cold climates and so forth. The Draw Collar creates draw by inducing heat into the pipe so when you start a fire the draw is already there. Which is why it won the most innovative product of the year in 2009 by Hearth and Home magazine


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## bholler (Jan 15, 2015)

Jotulover said:


> Not sure what you mean by masking the problem


I mean there is a lack of draft that should be fixed.



Jotulover said:


> the Draw Collar solves problems with chimneys that aren't or can't be installed in an optimal location


They should have been installed in a better location most of the time it just means you need to add height.




Jotulover said:


> basements with negative pressure


draw collars will not overcome negative pressure situations.




Jotulover said:


> a few 90's with a long horizontal run


Change it to 45s and slope the horizontal run



Jotulover said:


> extremely cold climates and so forth


Chimneys draw better when its cold outside


A draw collar can help start a draft by preheating the flue but it will not make chimney with poor draft work correctly


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## mellow (Jan 16, 2015)

Jotulover said:


> Not sure what you mean by masking the problem in my experience the Draw Collar solves problems with chimneys that aren't or can't be installed in an optimal location, basements with negative pressure, a few 90's with a long horizontal run, extremely cold climates and so forth. The Draw Collar creates draw by inducing heat into the pipe so when you start a fire the draw is already there. Which is why it won the most innovative product of the year in 2009 by Hearth and Home magazine



Heh, is he still here trying to peddle those draw collars... geesh.


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## maple1 (Jan 16, 2015)

After all those posts, I don't think I read - is the new liner insulated?


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## bholler (Jan 16, 2015)

Draw collar are not a bad product but they have very limited applications where they will give any real benifit.  They will never fix a poor drafting chimney  Draft inducer fans on the other hand are useless and can be very dangerous as well


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