# Offsetting Fossil Fuel Oil With Bioheat vs Wood



## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Dec 2, 2021)

I’m thinking of changing my oil provider to someone who offers a higher bio heat blend (50%). In theory everything sounds good - cleaner burning, more renewable. Downsides seem manageable - changing filter a little more during the transition as the tank sludge gets cleaned out and potentially different seals in the supply lines if they start failing earlier. 

From an environmental point of view, I’ve always thought wood burning was more renewable than oil though not perfect. Seems bioheat is more renewable than oil though not perfect and is probably more efficient than a wood stove. How does offsetting half my oil with bio heat compare to offsetting that oil with wood. I’m not going to stop burning wood, but what oil I do burn will be cleaner / more renewable. 

That being said, the stuff I’ve read has all been from people selling bio heat - sometimes a bit over the top and a lot of  shade throwing at heat pumps. So what’s the truth and what’s the hype?


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 2, 2021)

NoGoodAtScreenNames said:


> I’m thinking of changing my oil provider to someone who offers a higher bio heat blend (50%). In theory everything sounds good - cleaner burning, more renewable. Downsides seem manageable - changing filter a little more during the transition as the tank sludge gets cleaned out and potentially different seals in the supply lines if they start failing earlier.
> 
> From an environmental point of view, I’ve always thought wood burning was more renewable than oil though not perfect. Seems bioheat is more renewable than oil though not perfect and is probably more efficient than a wood stove. How does offsetting half my oil with bio heat compare to offsetting that oil with wood. I’m not going to stop burning wood, but what oil I do burn will be cleaner / more renewable.
> 
> That being said, the stuff I’ve read has all been from people selling bio heat - sometimes a bit over the top and a lot of  shade throwing at heat pumps. So what’s the truth and what’s the hype?


So I take it you’re already using a blend but a lower proportion of biofuel? Did you notice anything when you switched? What are the BTUs per gallon advertised for biofuel? Your recent approximate cost per gallon in MA? Cost of the new proposal fuel product? Thanks.


----------



## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Dec 2, 2021)

Haven’t officially changed over yet. My current provider has a low percentage - something like 5%. I think most companies around here are at least a small blend as it’s being encouraged / eventually mandated by MA, though some of the discount places like Haffners are still 100% fossil fuel.

I’m switching mostly due to the maintenance service being subpar. From what I’ve read the bio heat is equivalent in btus and is more efficient and easier on the equipment (other than some of the sealants that are designed for petroleum). I guess that’s the rub of my question. Is that all true?


----------



## ABMax24 (Dec 2, 2021)

Where is your oil stored? Biodiesel has a higher gel point than normal diesel does and this may be a concern if it gets cold and is stored outside.

Around here we are in theory limited to 20% biodiesel to avoid cold-gelling issues, but I don't know of a supplier that exceeds the mandatory 5% biodiesel content.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 2, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Where is your oil stored? Biodiesel has a higher gel point than normal diesel does and this may be a concern if it gets cold and is stored outside.
> 
> Around here we are in theory limited to 20% biodiesel to avoid cold-gelling issues, but I don't know of a supplier that exceeds the mandatory 5% biodiesel content.


I’ve never heard of households storing domestic heating oil outdoors. I’m close enough to the water to occasionally get sea spray, so on account of corrosion, I can’t imagine outside would be a good idea anywhere near me…. Likewise, if it were cold enough to gel in the tank in my basement, it would be on account of a power outage, which would mean there’d be no electricity for powering the boiler ignition or controllers or water circulator pumps, so it wouldn’t matter if the fuel were gelled. Might be worth knowing about if one had 50% biofuel even stored indoors if coming off of a prolonged outage…. I too haven’t heard of anyone doing more than 5% around here, so I’ll be curious if the OP tries it out.


----------



## ABMax24 (Dec 2, 2021)

ToastyRanch said:


> I’ve never heard of households storing domestic heating oil outdoors. I’m close enough to the water to occasionally get sea spray, so on account of corrosion, I can’t imagine outside would be a good idea anywhere near me…. Likewise, if it were cold enough to gel in the tank in my basement, it would be on account of a power outage, which would mean there’d be no electricity for powering the boiler ignition or controllers or water circulator pumps, so it wouldn’t matter if the fuel were gelled. Might be worth knowing about if one had 50% biofuel even stored indoors if coming off of a prolonged outage…. I too haven’t heard of anyone doing more than 5% around here, so I’ll be curious if the OP tries it out.



Heating oil isn't used around here anymore, but when it was it was always stored in outdoor tanks, being the reason I was wondering where it was stored. -40 could be a problem for gelling the fuel lines.


----------



## woodgeek (Dec 3, 2021)

HHO tanks were routinely installed outdoors in Pennsylvania, often underground.  

My house had one installed at construction in 1960.  The practice is now banned, bc when they leak....  Mine was replaced with an indoor tank before I bought the house (and the old one dug out with a lot of contaminated soil at high expense).  Now that indoor one is gone too.

I had an older neighbor whose oil line to his outdoor tank routinely 'froze' or gelled during very cold weather.  Years ago, but a PITA.


----------



## peakbagger (Dec 3, 2021)

Bio heat is just fossil heating oil with some blend of biodiesel. There is poor regulation of the name biofuel so find out what the actual blend is. In theory one drop of biodiesel in a 10,000 gallons of fossil heating oil may be advertised as "Biodiesel". So make sure what the blend is. I think the former Presby Plant in Dalton NH was bought by fuel oil distributor in Mass and I think their blend was 10% but they could effectively sell any percent blend the buyer wanted.  The Cog railroad on Mt Washington heavily advertises that they only use "green" biodiesel to run the diesel cogs but what they are actually running is 10% biodiesel and the rest fossil.  

Biodiesel can come from many sources and in some cases at higher blends it can affect the viscosity of oil at lower temps usually a non issue with basement tanks but possibly an issue with an outdoor tank. Do not underestimate the fuel filter issue when swapping an older system over. It can require several years to really clean out the system and every tank fill can stir things up. If you are a DIY person plan on buying several filters at Home Depot and changing them out frequently over the first season. At least a couple of techs I ran into suggested that making the swap was best done after a fuel oil tank replacement which is the primary source of contaminants.  At a minimum I would suggest that a homeowner has 24 hour service plan in place on the rare chance that they need service. 

BTW some oil companies were already adding a very small blend of biodiesel to their heating oil to scavenge some of the crap out of the home as well as their bulk tanks.   Biodiesel is also repackaged as a diesel additive to improve the lubricity of diesel for older diesel engines now that low sulfur diesel is the only fuel available

When biodiesel was first rolling out in VT it could be bought in very high blends up to 100%. A coworker and his wife were very green and went with 100%. He traveled on occasion and would leave his them pregnant wife home with a couple of toddlers. I think he had to talk his fairly capable wife over the phone into doing a filter and nozzle change on their heating system when it stopped working in very cold weather.


----------



## Brian26 (Dec 3, 2021)

NoGoodAtScreenNames said:


> I’m thinking of changing my oil provider to someone who offers a higher bio heat blend (50%). In theory everything sounds good - cleaner burning, more renewable. Downsides seem manageable - changing filter a little more during the transition as the tank sludge gets cleaned out and potentially different seals in the supply lines if they start failing earlier.
> 
> From an environmental point of view, I’ve always thought wood burning was more renewable than oil though not perfect. Seems bioheat is more renewable than oil though not perfect and is probably more efficient than a wood stove. How does offsetting half my oil with bio heat compare to offsetting that oil with wood. I’m not going to stop burning wood, but what oil I do burn will be cleaner / more renewable.
> 
> That being said, the stuff I’ve read has all been from people selling bio heat - sometimes a bit over the top and a lot of  shade throwing at heat pumps. So what’s the truth and what’s the hype?


What kind of tank do you have now?  Might be worth upgrading the tank to a biofuel setup. I had a Roth double walled tank installed last year with a tigerloop with a 10 micron spin on filter. The Roth inner tank is polyethylene and is biofuel rated and the tigerloop is as well. You can get a biofuel rated 10 micron spin on filter as well for the tigerloop. 

 I replaced a 1958 275 gallon tank in my basement last year and paid $2750 for it installed. If your tank is old and metal in your basement might be worth it for the safety upgrade as well. The Roth tanks are doubled walled so if the inner tank leaks the outer tank can hold 110% of the inside tank. A heating oil tank leaking in a basement is a huge environmental mess and can cost a fortune to clean up.


----------



## peakbagger (Dec 3, 2021)

BTW , Home Depot sells a competitor to Roth. If you are capable of DIY they cost less https://www.homedepot.com/p/Double-...2-in-1-Tank-with-Accessories-961226/207175402 Its important to note that this is pretty large DIY project and will require converting the fuel line to an overhead design instead of gravity and reworking the fill lines which requires messing with large threaded piping. In most cases folks have a heating company do it as they have the equipment to pump out the old tank and dispose of it.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 3, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> What kind of tank do you have now?  Might be worth upgrading the tank to a biofuel setup. I had a Roth double walled tank installed last year with a tigerloop with a 10 micron spin on filter. The Roth inner tank is polyethylene and is biofuel rated and the tigerloop is as well. You can get a biofuel rated 10 micron spin on filter as well for the tigerloop.
> 
> I replaced a 1958 275 gallon tank in my basement last year and paid $2750 for it installed. If your tank is old and metal in your basement might be worth it for the safety upgrade as well. The Roth tanks are doubled walled so if the inner tank leaks the outer tank can hold 110% of the inside tank. A heating oil tank leaking in a basement is a huge environmental mess and can cost a fortune to clean up.
> 
> View attachment 286936


I just got a Roth tank last year. This part of my oil setup looks exactly like yours. The tank even says on it “for fuel oil and other combustible liquids.” It’s actually rated for indoor or outdoor use, which I hadn’t noticed until this discussion. 

What does your tiger loop look like? Can you post a photo? If I’m remembering correctly from my conversation with the installer from a year ago…. I think my installer said he didn’t think a tiger loop was necessary in our setup, but that we were to call him if it was malfunctioning, and then he would install one right away. So now I’m wondering if I’d need one prior to switching to a product containing any amount of biofuel.


----------



## Brian26 (Dec 3, 2021)

ToastyRanch said:


> I just got a Roth tank last year. This part of my oil setup looks exactly like yours. The tank even says on it “for fuel oil and other combustible liquids.” It’s actually rated for indoor or outdoor use, which I hadn’t noticed until this discussion.
> 
> What does your tiger loop look like? Can you post a photo? If I’m remembering correctly from my conversation with the installer from a year ago…. I think my installer said he didn’t think a tiger loop was necessary in our setup, but that we were to call him if it was malfunctioning, and then he would install one right away. So now I’m wondering if I’d need one prior to switching to a product containing any amount of biofuel.


Here is the tigerloop. Its a really awesome device that eliminates the traditional 2 pipe return/ supply setup. It deaerates the fuel and it also raises the temperature of the oil before its sent to the nozzle by the constant circulation. You also get 10 micron filtration which will keep your nozzle really clean.


----------



## EbS-P (Dec 3, 2021)

My thoughts on blended bio oil vs wood are these.  I think you need to set some parameters for “best” .  Lowest particulate emissions, lowest *total* CO2 emissions?  I don’t think it’s a straightforward assessment.  I’m going to just guess that as long as the firewood was sourced semi locally it would have the lowest co2 emissions.  Probably higher (much higher?) particulate emissions.  

I don’t see how bio fuel production can can have lower CO2 production emissions than wood burning. 
I absolutely think heatpumps are a great heating appliance and should be utilized knowing that when it’s really cold you need a second heat source.    I did not use my heatpump really at all for 2 winters.  Now it just seems silly to be lighting a fire when it’s in the 50s and above outside.   I could say the same for any oil burner bio or not.  

So if your goal is to make the best environmentally friendly decisions the less oil you use the better.  The less wood you burn the better.  (Heatpump for the win) but if and more realistically when  you burn oil it’s better to burn bio oil if only to financially support the companies who are producing it and reduce your fossil fuel consumption.    My gut feeling is that wood burned conscientiously in a 4 g/hr or less EPA stove has a smaller environmental impact that 50/50 bio oil.  If I lived in an area with questionable air quality I probably would burn more oil.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 3, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> Here is the tigerloop. Its a really awesome device that eliminates the traditional 2 pipe return/ supply setup. It deaerates the fuel and it also raises the temperature of the oil before its sent to the nozzle by the constant circulation. You also get 10 micron filtration which will keep your nozzle really clean.
> 
> View attachment 286947


Thanks for the photo and the explanation of the tigerloop’s purpose. Memory is such a funny thing. I know I’ve seen one before but I’m not home right now and I have no idea if I’ve seen one in my own setup. I’ll look into it. Much appreciated.


----------



## peakbagger (Dec 3, 2021)

I think the deal with biofuel is that its an easy drop in. We need that, not all of us want to do physical work to burn wood or pellets. Sure mini splits are great and I use one for shoulder season but if the power goes it is not an option. It does not take much of generator to fire a fuel oil boiler and 275 gallons will cover even major power outages.  Grandma and grandpa may be fine living at home but add in wood heat and they are in assisted living. 275 gallons is lot of stored KWhrs so it effectively a cheap thermal battery. The tough part is was when I was looking at this tech 10 years ago, the price of oil needed to be a consistent 10o to 120 dollars per barrel to get investors interested. BTW, I did the first conversion of hospital in the US to Renewable Fuel oil a few years ago. Its not heating oil but it is a bio based liquid fuel.There was a learning curve and its not cheap but it runs and they are happy with it. Bates College in Lewiston Maine heats their campus with it. It makes zero sense when oil is cheap, but no carbon taxes and no drilling. The tech has been around for 30 years and its not that hard to build a plant. Basically site the plant next to a large sawmill or pulp and paper mill and use the crap the mill does not want. There is surplus of low grade wood in the woods that is just rotting, make a new market for it and there are plenty of folks who will pick it up and supply it.  

Liquid fuel oil is always going to be needed for air travel. Sure batteries may nibble at the edges but flying is inherently a fuel thirsty project. United just ran a flight with one engine running 100% synthetic fuel made from crops https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/...launches-first-commercial-flight-with-100-saf.  If folks can remember the country prior to unconventional drilling techniques, the US was looking at biofuels big time along with drilling along the Atlantic. DOE did a fairly large study and  concluded that the Northenr Forest that roughly runs along the US Canadian Border could supply 1/3 of current transportation fuel (long before EVs factored in) as long as it was agressively managed similar to what is happening in the southeast. I cant support making biofuel to support a single rider commuting to work everyday when EVs now are just as good but I would support getting our jet fuel with no drop in equivalent from biomass.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 3, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> My thoughts on blended bio oil vs wood are these.  I think you need to set some parameters for “best” .  Lowest particulate emissions, lowest *total* CO2 emissions?  I don’t think it’s a straightforward assessment.  I’m going to just guess that as long as the firewood was sourced semi locally it would have the lowest co2 emissions.  Probably higher (much higher?) particulate emissions.
> 
> I don’t see how bio fuel production can can have lower CO2 production emissions than wood burning.
> I absolutely think heatpumps are a great heating appliance and should be utilized knowing that when it’s really cold you need a second heat source.    I did not use my heatpump really at all for 2 winters.  Now it just seems silly to be lighting a fire when it’s in the 50s and above outside.   I could say the same for any oil burner bio or not.
> ...


@EbS-P remind me…. You have a heat pump a wood stove and a wood insert? Anything else? What do you do for hot water? Typically my standby heat loss from my oil based indirect hot water heater (hot water loop off of the boiler inside the hot water heater) is enough when combined with solar gain to completely heat my house when the weather is in the 50s. Yesterday it was 50s and raining and had been colder for days prior, so we did need to boost a little bit with oil. But we’re talking roughly 10K BTU in total per 24hrs (NOT per hour) for heat and hot water. 

In addition to the typical reasons for wanting to do wood burning, I’m looking to supplement with wood in my north facing living/dining room because it’s hard to get them warm enough via the oil forced hot water loop without overheating my south facing kitchen. Unfortunately not solvable by relocating the thermostat.  We want to replace some living room windows soon which will help.


----------



## EbS-P (Dec 3, 2021)

ToastyRanch said:


> @EbS-P remind me…. You have a heat pump a wood stove and a wood insert? Anything else? What do you do for hot water? Typically my standby heat loss from my oil based indirect hot water heater (hot water loop off of the boiler inside the hot water heater) is enough when combined with solar gain to completely heat my house when the weather is in the 50s. Yesterday it was 50s and raining and had been colder for days prior, so we did need to boost a little bit with oil. But we’re talking roughly 10K BTU in total per 24hrs (NOT per hour) for heat and hot water.
> 
> In addition to the typical reasons for wanting to do wood burning, I’m looking to supplement with wood in my north facing living/dining room because it’s hard to get them warm enough via the oil forced hot water loop without overheating my south facing kitchen. Unfortunately not solvable by relocating the thermostat.  We want to replace some living room windows soon which will help.


80 gallon Heatpump hot water heater in basement.  Short story. House was 2000 sq ft upstairs. 600 sq ft in-law apartment downstairs with a walk out basement and 2 car garage next to that.   We have a 2009 16 seer 3 ton package unit.  It’s not sized correctly for the now 3100 sq ft of living space.  It cools fine but with the duct losses in an uninsulated vented crawl space it is really undersized. Hurricane Florence left so much wood it was easier to cut and split for firewood than drag out to street.  A work bonus was spent  on a stove. 

 We converted the garage to open living space.  Last year. Heatpump is very undersized for 3100 sq ft it heats now.  It does fine down to about high 30s.  Got a quote for another mini split in the new basement space it was 6k and I decided an insert makes since as I already have firewood.  It probably will see 10 loads a month Dec-February.  Keeps kids from putting toys in the fireplace. 

I haven’t paid for firewood and I have 5 cords.  Just from what neighbors set out and what I can get from tree services doing work that I can hear from my house.   

 I might add a mr cool diy 12k btu mini spit to basement.  Just for convenience.  Solar just isn’t in the cards unless I take out many trees.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 3, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> I think the deal with biofuel is that its an easy drop in. We need that, not all of us want to do physical work to burn wood or pellets. Sure mini splits are great and I use one for shoulder season but if the power goes it is not an option. It does not take much of generator to fire a fuel oil boiler and 275 gallons will cover even major power outages.  Grandma and grandpa may be fine living at home but add in wood heat and they are in assisted living. 275 gallons is lot of stored KWhrs so it effectively a cheap thermal battery. The tough part is was when I was looking at this tech 10 years ago, the price of oil needed to be a consistent 10o to 120 dollars per barrel to get investors interested. BTW, I did the first conversion of hospital in the US to Renewable Fuel oil a few years ago. Its not heating oil but it is a bio based liquid fuel.There was a learning curve and its not cheap but it runs and they are happy with it. Bates College in Lewiston Maine heats their campus with it. It makes zero sense when oil is cheap, but no carbon taxes and no drilling. The tech has been around for 30 years and its not that hard to build a plant. Basically site the plant next to a large sawmill or pulp and paper mill and use the crap the mill does not want. There is surplus of low grade wood in the woods that is just rotting, make a new market for it and there are plenty of folks who will pick it up and supply it.
> 
> Liquid fuel oil is always going to be needed for air travel. Sure batteries may nibble at the edges but flying is inherently a fuel thirsty project. United just ran a flight with one engine running 100% synthetic fuel made from crops https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/...launches-first-commercial-flight-with-100-saf.  If folks can remember the country prior to unconventional drilling techniques, the US was looking at biofuels big time along with drilling along the Atlantic. DOE did a fairly large study and  concluded that the Northenr Forest that roughly runs along the US Canadian Border could supply 1/3 of current transportation fuel (long before EVs factored in) as long as it was agressively managed similar to what is happening in the southeast. I cant support making biofuel to support a single rider commuting to work everyday when EVs now are just as good but I would support getting our jet fuel with no drop in equivalent from biomass.


@peakbagger you made many interesting points. I am new to living away from an urban area and I’ve been getting a crash course in emergency off grid heating by reading on this website. I have oil forced hot water for the first time in my life. I would like to know a bit more about backup generators for an oil system. Is it possible to share the oil from the oil tank to power the backup generator? Seems like you wouldn’t really want a separate fuel oil container outside. When I was poking around online briefly just now it seemed like a typical automatic transfer switch generator uses natural gas or LP. Any pragmatic advice appreciated…. Right now I’m thinking starting with replacing open fireplace with something wood burning and EPA certified and then get LP fireplace backup for my guest room/home office addition and also use LP for a backup generator.


----------



## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Dec 3, 2021)

Easy drop in is definitely a selling point they use to encourage the switch. The company I’m considering uses the “BioHeat” brand and all they sell is the 50% blend. I would probably use them for service as well and I’m sure they are familiar with the transition process.

I’d be comfortable changing the filter, though getting a walk through from the tech before I do it for the first time would be good.

The guy who patched up the boiler for me this year recommended a tiger loop as well (but he doesn’t install them himself). That might be something to consider as the old gravity feed was a bit gunked up.

Tank is in the basement, nice and warm. I assume it’s native to the house so it’s probably at least 30 years old. I’m in no mood to swap out my oil tank unless absolutely necessary though. That wouldn’t seem like an easy drop in.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 3, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> 80 gallon Heatpump hot water heater in basement.  Short story. House was 2000 sq ft upstairs. 600 sq ft in-law apartment downstairs with a walk out basement and 2 car garage next to that.   We have a 2009 16 seer 3 ton package unit.  It’s not sized correctly for the now 3100 sq ft of living space.  It cools fine but with the duct losses in an uninsulated vented crawl space it is really undersized. Hurricane Florence left so much wood it was easier to cut and split for firewood than drag out to street.  A work bonus was spent  on a stove.
> 
> We converted the garage to open living space.  Last year. Heatpump is very undersized for 3100 sq ft it heats now.  It does fine down to about high 30s.  Got a quote for another mini split in the new basement space it was 6k and I decided an insert makes since as I already have firewood.  It probably will see 10 loads a month Dec-February.  Keeps kids from putting toys in the fireplace.
> 
> ...


It can be so helpful to “talk” to people in other parts of the country about what is customary. Heat pumps are just beginning to be mainstream where I live. A few months ago I helped my dad select a new heat pump for his condominium. It’s rare enough that both quotes came out initially for AC units only without the reversing valves and I had to correct them. Anyway his condo is only about 1200 sq ft and is ducted. The majority of heat pumps here are in ductless installations. As a result, in both cases I’ve only heard about one unit covering roughly that same 1200 sq feet as a maximum. Didn’t realize one could possibly size one unit for 3100 sq feet for residential property…. We purchased our house complete with a brand new oil boiler, so we’re trying to optimize it and add whatever backup heat and add-on AC options that will make sense. I’d love to have a heat pump water heater in the summer, so I could turn off my boiler completely, but so far I need to use other means to optimize hot water costs and minimize excess summertime basement heat. 

 If I’m understanding you correctly your heat pump is able to provide dehumidification of your lower level, even though the ductwork for it goes through an unconditioned crawl space? That’s impressive.


----------



## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Dec 3, 2021)

Heat pumps have a big fan that you can attach to a vent and send wherever you want it. You could choose where to pull and exhaust from. 

Here is Mass we have damp basements and the water heater acts as a dehumidifier. The heater performs best with warm damp air (damp air holds more heat). In winter is hot and dry down there from the boiler. So I’m heating with some waste here from there. I don’t need my basement to be 80F in January.


----------



## EbS-P (Dec 3, 2021)

ToastyRanch said:


> It can be so helpful to “talk” to people in other parts of the country about what is customary. Heat pumps are just beginning to be mainstream where I live. A few months ago I helped my dad select a new heat pump for his condominium. It’s rare enough that both quotes came out initially for AC units only without the reversing valves and I had to correct them. Anyway his condo is only about 1200 sq ft and is ducted. The majority of heat pumps here are in ductless installations. As a result, in both cases I’ve only heard about one unit covering roughly that same 1200 sq feet as a maximum. Didn’t realize one could possibly size one unit for 3100 sq feet for residential property…. We purchased our house complete with a brand new oil boiler, so we’re trying to optimize it and add whatever backup heat and add-on AC options that will make sense. I’d love to have a heat pump water heater in the summer, so I could turn off my boiler completely, but so far I need to use other means to optimize hot water costs and minimize excess summertime basement heat.
> 
> If I’m understanding you correctly your heat pump is able to provide dehumidification of your lower level, even though the ductwork for it goes through an unconditioned crawl space? That’s impressive.


The heatpump water heater in the basement acts as a dehumidifier.
Edit**** it is NOT ducted out if the room it’s in.  But I have a duct kit that puts the intake at the ceiling and exhaust down at floor level. *****

  Before it we ran two 70 pint and dumped them every day now we dump one every two days.  The  hvac heatpump is a two stage system with variable speed blower. I think it’s set to 350 cfm/ton It has settings to that reduce blower speed for first 5 minutes on first stage to allow the coil to stay colder increasing the dehumidification.   

Complicating everything is the fact that there is no air return in the basement.  Ductwork is original to 1965 and needs replaced.  And I have a 17’ double pane glass garage door.   All in all I have a very unique space and layout add to that I heat with wood in the south.
 If I could design the perfect system I would have two zones ducted(upstairs and downstairs)  with  a 12k btu mini split in the basement to provide extra heat during the winter for the room with the frat age door  and provide dehumidification in the summer.    But that’s probably a +20k$ install. 

We have family in southern Maine.    Oil boiler, F400 wood stove for backup heat.  They could really benefit from an 18kbtu two head mini split.  Master Bedroom and dining/family room.    And a standby generator.  They are over 80 and need AC.   

If it was my house I would do ground mount solar. Add two 2 head mini splits, Probably heatpump water heater, but keep thi oil boiler  and swap for pellet boiler when it needed replaced and  swap the f400 for a larger rear vent stove.  I don’t know if an insert would work. BK Princess if it did.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 3, 2021)

NoGoodAtScreenNames said:


> Heat pumps have a big fan that you can attach to a vent and send wherever you want it. You could choose where to pull and exhaust from.
> 
> Here is Mass we have damp basements and the water heater acts as a dehumidifier. The heater performs best with warm damp air (damp air holds more heat). In winter is hot and dry down there from the boiler. So I’m heating with some waste here from there. I don’t need my basement to be 80F in January.


Let me echo back what you’re saying and see if I’m understanding you correctly @NoGoodAtScreenNames. I think you’re saying that you’re running a heat pump water heater in the same basement area in which you’ve also got an  oil burning heating system? You are powering down your oil burner in the summer? Furthermore, in summer your heat pump water heater is a vigorous dehumidification system as well as water heater, such that you don’t typically need to run a separate dehumidifier? And that you don’t mind running both machines in the winter because your oil burner generates so much residual heat in the air that you don’t mind transferring some of it from your air to your heat pump water heater? I’m assuming you’re slightly exaggerating for effect and your basement wouldn’t be 80F without the heat pump? It would be useful to have a clearer sense of the real numbers involved. Our basement is currently only about two or three degrees F cooler than our upstairs in our hydronic heated ranch. We’re just getting the hang of this house but I’m potentially persuadable that we might benefit from a heat pump water heater if I can get a clearer sense of the volume of summer humidity and winter heat that’s going to be removed.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 3, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> The heatpump water heater in the basement acts as a dehumidifier.
> Edit**** it is NOT ducted out if the room it’s in.  But I have a duct kit that puts the intake at the ceiling and exhaust down at floor level. *****
> 
> Before it we ran two 70 pint and dumped them every day now we dump one every two days.  The  hvac heatpump is a two stage system with variable speed blower. I think it’s set to 350 cfm/ton It has settings to that reduce blower speed for first 5 minutes on first stage to allow the coil to stay colder increasing the dehumidification.
> ...


@EbS-P I was under the impression that a pellet boiler would be a lot more work and potentially therefore unmanageable for elderly compared   with an oil boiler? But I’ve only seen an ancient one which looked to me like Jabba the Hutt 😉


----------



## EbS-P (Dec 3, 2021)

ToastyRanch said:


> @EbS-P I was under the impression that a pellet boiler would be a lot more work and potentially therefore unmanageable for elderly compared   with an oil boiler? But I’ve only seen an ancient one which looked to me like Jabba the Hutt 😉


Pellet would be if I lived there. Don’t change anything for the elderly if you can help it.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 3, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> Pellet would be if I lived there. Don’t change anything for the elderly if you can help it.


That makes much more sense.


----------



## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Dec 3, 2021)

ToastyRanch said:


> Let me echo back what you’re saying and see if I’m understanding you correctly @NoGoodAtScreenNames. I think you’re saying that you’re running a heat pump water heater in the same basement area in which you’ve also got an  oil burning heating system? You are powering down your oil burner in the summer? Furthermore, in summer your heat pump water heater is a vigorous dehumidification system as well as water heater, such that you don’t typically need to run a separate dehumidifier? And that you don’t mind running both machines in the winter because your oil burner generates so much residual heat in the air that you don’t mind transferring some of it from your air to your heat pump water heater? I’m assuming you’re slightly exaggerating for effect and your basement wouldn’t be 80F without the heat pump? It would be useful to have a clearer sense of the real numbers involved. Our basement is currently only about two or three degrees F cooler than our upstairs in our hydronic heated ranch. We’re just getting the hang of this house but I’m potentially persuadable that we might benefit from a heat pump water heater if I can get a clearer sense of the volume of summer humidity and winter heat that’s going to be removed.


That’s basically it. When I say “basement” I mean the mechanical room where the heaters are which is probably about 600 sq ft. Right now it’s about 70 degrees on a day in the 30s where I’ve been burning wood so the boiler hasn’t cycled much today and the heat pump was cranking out cold air - I try to increase the water tank temp during the day to use as much from my solar as possible. 

I have been turning the boiler off in the warmer seasons though I’ve recently just got some leaks fixed and he recommended to keep it running all year.  He did turndown the min temp it has to maintain so it will run a short cycle once or twice a day if there’s no heat demand.

A heat pump has some side benefits like humidity control, but the main thing is the cost savings on your electric bill.  It usually takes about 2kwh per day for me $0.30 to run (ignoring my solar panels which bring the cost down).  The downside of a heat pump is if it’s in a living space / closet where people may be uncomfortable with the cool air or in a garage that gets cold and there may not be much heat to pull from. It needs ambient to be around 50 or higher to work well in heat pump mode. In a basement in a cold climate next to a boiler you’ll be just fine.


----------



## EbS-P (Dec 3, 2021)

I think for these decisions it matters your electric cost, usage, generation source and climate .  I pay $0.134 per kWh will go up a bit next year.  Near as makes no difference we are 1/3 nuclear, 1/3 gas and 1/3 coal.   My largest usage occurred in August and was 1220 kWh for a family of 6 who line dries 90% of the laundry and cooks with electricity.  Last January was 920 kWh. Last month was lowest I can remember, since boy  #4 arrived, at 600 kWh.    We have 2300 heating degree days and 2200 cooling.  Very very rarely do we have high temps that are below freezing.   Very very rare to see temps over 105.  The perfect climate for a heatpump, hvac and water heater.


----------



## Brian26 (Dec 4, 2021)

Looks like this just passed in CT in July.  I could see other New England states following.

Connecticut, R.I., Enact New Biodiesel Requirements​Governors in Connecticut and Rhode Island signed legislation that requires higher blends of biodiesel in home heating oil in coming years, the National Energy & Fuels Institute reports in the July 20 issue of its weekly newsletter, _NEFI Energy Online News_ (_NEON_).
On July 12, Connecticut Gov. Ned Lamont signed HB6412, a bill to require B5 in 2022, B10 in 2025, B15 in 2030, B20 in 2034, and B50 in 2035, according to the newsletter and the Connecticut Energy Marketers Association.

On July 13, Rhode Island Gov. Daniel McKee signed H5132A, the newsletter reports, “which moves beyond the existing B5 requirement to B10 in 2023, B20 in 2025, and B50 in 2030.
”The New York state legislature passed a bill (S3321A/A7290) in May that expands the existing downstate B5 requirement statewide in 2022 and requires B10 in 2025 and B20 by 2030, the newsletter also noted, but that legislation has not been enacted pending Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s signature.









						Connecticut, R.I., Enact New Biodiesel Requirements | Fuel Oil News
					

Governors in Connecticut and Rhode Island signed legislation that requires higher blends of biodiesel in home heating oil in coming years, the National Energy & Fuels Institute reports in the July 20 issue of its weekly newsletter, NEFI Energy Online News (NEON). On July 12, Connecticut Gov. Ned...




					fueloilnews.com


----------



## peakbagger (Dec 4, 2021)

The problem with biodiesel is it can be "green" or "brown". Brown biodiesel is generally regarded as made with palm oil. Palm oil plantations are mostly in indonesia and are generally not sustainable (slash and burn cultivation) and usually significant labor abuses. I think most of Europe bans it. Generally, if its main crop compared to residual the "greenness" of biodiesel is suspect (similar to corn based ethanol). Green biodiesel is generally made from waste products captured from the waste stream.  If you go behind most restaurants there is usually a locked and chained tank for waste cooling oil. There are even ongoing thefts of used cooking oil by organized groups. These are converted to green biodiesel. Unfortunately that waste stream is pretty limited. So unless there are standards on the traceability of the feedstock, biodiesel may not be that environmentally green all its doing is exporting the impact to somewhere across the world. 

Note its not just palm oil, rapeseed oil (raw canola) jojoba, corn and other crop oils all can be made into biodiesel but the sustainable and environmental benefits are in contention. Animal fats (lard) can also be used but generally the pour point is higher. I did read of project to take skimmed fats that build up in wastewater treatment plants and turning it into biodiesel. It works but is expensive. 

Alternatively skip the deesterfication of the waste oils, filter them, preheat them and fire them direct. That keeps some BTU content and is cheaper to process. The term is a "grease car" when used in mechanically injected diesels (usually older VWs and Mercedes). I used to work with a few grease car folks. They start the car with diesel and then once it is hot they would swap over to waste oil. They had to remember to switch back prior to shutting the car down as the oil will gel quickly requiring a major cleanup to get the car running again.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 4, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> Here is the tigerloop. Its a really awesome device that eliminates the traditional 2 pipe return/ supply setup. It deaerates the fuel and it also raises the temperature of the oil before its sent to the nozzle by the constant circulation. You also get 10 micron filtration which will keep your nozzle really clean.
> 
> View attachment 286947


Well, it seems like I’m halfway there. I’ve got something with seemingly fewer features called a PurePro F100W filter.  I think it is just filtering but doesn’t seem to warm or de-aerate the fuel. It looks like this:


----------



## peakbagger (Dec 5, 2021)

ToastyRanch said:


> @peakbagger you made many interesting points. I am new to living away from an urban area and I’ve been getting a crash course in emergency off grid heating by reading on this website. I have oil forced hot water for the first time in my life. I would like to know a bit more about backup generators for an oil system. Is it possible to share the oil from the oil tank to power the backup generator? Seems like you wouldn’t really want a separate fuel oil container outside. When I was poking around online briefly just now it seemed like a typical automatic transfer switch generator uses natural gas or LP. Any pragmatic advice appreciated…. Right now I’m thinking starting with replacing open fireplace with something wood burning and EPA certified and then get LP fireplace backup for my guest room/home office addition and also use LP for a backup generator.


To revisit Toasty Ranches question, unless you are in area with lots of power outages I think most folks would not put in a dedicated backup power system for a hot water boiler system. Yes it could be done using heating oil which is effectively diesel these days. Even if its biodiesel, a diesel generator will burn it as long as it flows. The bigger issue is the generator needs to be outdoors away from the house to avoid CO poisoning so it requires a lot of piping and possibly booster pumps. 

 If the fuel is in a Roth type tank it would get tricky as the Tiger system used to pull oil up out of the tank is effectively a syphon with deareation running off the oil burner burner recirculator circuit with an added filter. Unless the generator had a fuel pump with a recirc capability it could not draw on the Roth fuel line unless itis set up for suction feed. There are only a few small diesels generators and they are pricey. If you are in an area with potential power interruptions, you are far better buying a portable generator and having a plan to hook it up. if you want to use a diesel or heating oil generator you can but you need to plan how you will get the oil out of your bulk tank before the emergency. You can pick up a reasonable 6 to 7 KW generator for under $1000. Spend another couple of thousand for a legal transfer switch or do what most folks do and build or buy a cheater cord that runs from the generator to the main panel or dryer plug and make sure the main breaker is off. You will not be able to  run all house loads at once but you can alternate them. Its unnerving during the first outage but most folks get the drill pretty quick. The biggest issue is some folks insist on installing a generator where its convenient rather than safe and poison themselves with carbon monoxide. 

Of course if you live in Mass put in the right brand of solar and you can get the state to pay for a "free" battery and you can run the house off the battery as long as it has capacity.  Its likely you will run the battery out of power fairly quickly because you are not conservign power but it will cover short outages.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 6, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> To revisit Toasty Ranches question, unless you are in area with lots of power outages I think most folks would not put in a dedicated backup power system for a hot water boiler system. Yes it could be done using heating oil which is effectively diesel these days. Even if its biodiesel, a diesel generator will burn it as long as it flows. The bigger issue is the generator needs to be outdoors away from the house to avoid CO poisoning so it requires a lot of piping and possibly booster pumps.
> 
> If the fuel is in a Roth type tank it would get tricky as the Tiger system used to pull oil up out of the tank is effectively a syphon with deareation running off the oil burner burner recirculator circuit with an added filter. Unless the generator had a fuel pump with a recirc capability it could not draw on the Roth fuel line unless itis set up for suction feed. There are only a few small diesels generators and they are pricey. If you are in an area with potential power interruptions, you are far better buying a portable generator and having a plan to hook it up. if you want to use a diesel or heating oil generator you can but you need to plan how you will get the oil out of your bulk tank before the emergency. You can pick up a reasonable 6 to 7 KW generator for under $1000. Spend another couple of thousand for a legal transfer switch or do what most folks do and build or buy a cheater cord that runs from the generator to the main panel or dryer plug and make sure the main breaker is off. You will not be able to  run all house loads at once but you can alternate them. Its unnerving during the first outage but most folks get the drill pretty quick. The biggest issue is some folks insist on installing a generator where its convenient rather than safe and poison themselves with carbon monoxide.
> 
> Of course if you live in Mass put in the right brand of solar and you can get the state to pay for a "free" battery and you can run the house off the battery as long as it has capacity.  Its likely you will run the battery out of power fairly quickly because you are not conservign power but it will cover short outages.


I think you’re drawing a distinction between a regular portable generator and an atypical diesel  powered generator, is that right? My vague recollection is that typical portable generators run on the blended gasoline made for cars. Is that right? 

Also as I mentioned to @Brian26 it doesn’t look like I’ve got a tiger loop off of my Roth, based upon the photo I posted above on Saturday. I’d appreciate it if either of you or someone else chimed in to confirm that it’s indeed lacking in my setup. In the meantime, I will research whether it would be meaningful to add one, and am open to your knowledge about that topic. 

Also very interesting update about the battery situation in MA wrt to solar. The last time I looked into solar was 6 years ago for a different house, and the lack of a viable storage battery option was one the biggest deterrents keeping me from installing panels. I’ll definitely need to look at what has subsequently changed in my area. Thanks again.


----------



## peakbagger (Dec 6, 2021)

I think Brian26? a member out of CT has the best info on batteries? in Mass. In order to get the incentive, the firm installing the battery has to be an intermediary between the homeowner and the utility and the inverter installed has to have the capability to send power to the grid. I think Tesla is doing it and Solar Edge equipment can do it. Incentives in Mass change often, it makes it hard for folks to plan. 

IMHO, if your boiler is running without a Tiger Loop (or an equivalent) why mess with it?. In theory the oil pumps on the burners are positive displacement and should be able to lift the fuel out of the tank without anything else but if there are vacuum leaks on the fuel line they should help. Adding a fine filter is also not a bad thing. 

Yes 95% of the generators out there are run on auto gas. Unless special precautions are used to drain the tank and run it out of fuel everytime you use it, its gradually going to be less reliable and eventualy not run as the ethanol in car gas will degrade in the fuel lines and the carburetor will slowly plug up with gunk. The alternative is to use non ethanol gas or aviation gas.   Both do not have ethanol in them and will not turn to gunk so no need to drain and run the engine out (still not a bad idea). Diesel generators are much rarer. Heating oil used to be a step lower in quality than diesel but they are pretty close these days since the switch to low sulfur. They are basically swapable but the additive packages will differ a bit and the pour point will be better with diesel in cold weather as they up the kerosene content. The vast majority of diesel generators can handle either diesel or heating oil. 

 They have to be made heavier due to the high compression ratio. Diesels are compression ignition engines and they really do not like cold weather or cold fuel. They usually are electric start and that means maintaining a starter battery.  I have a 7KW Kubota low boy diesel with all the goodies for starting and I think the retail around $7,000. I also have $500 Generac I bought a few months after January 1st 2000 when the world was supposed to end and no doubt if I take it out and fuel it up, it will run.  (the Kubota just came with a peice of equipment I bought. There are chinese built diesels who sell for far less. Diesels usually last far longer and due to higher rotating mass and fuel injection they can handle surge loads better.   Diesel fuel has higher btu content than gasoline so it runs longer on less fuel. They also have the reputation for longer life but the chinese units are probably throw aways. That said a gasoline Honda Inverter gasoline generator will have cleaner power and are quite efficient for far less money and lower weight and very reliable unless you tempt fate and not drain the fuel and run it out. . IMHO unless you are off grid,  your power is really bad or live in Nothern California where the utility turns your power off for days due to possible powerline arcing buy a a gasoline inverter Honda and leave it in the box until you need it buy or an inverter  Predator from Harbor Freight and run it for about 50 hours after you get it. The Predators have good rep but you are the quality control inspector so run it to make sure you didnt get a lemon before the short warranty runs out. 

BTW if you do have access to propane many gasoline engines can be converted to dual fuel with kit.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 6, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> I think Brian26? a member out of CT has the best info on batteries? in Mass. In order to get the incentive, the firm installing the battery has to be an intermediary between the homeowner and the utility and the inverter installed has to have the capability to send power to the grid. I think Tesla is doing it and Solar Edge equipment can do it. Incentives in Mass change often, it makes it hard for folks to plan.
> 
> IMHO, if your boiler is running without a Tiger Loop (or an equivalent) why mess with it?. In theory the oil pumps on the burners are positive displacement and should be able to lift the fuel out of the tank without anything else but if there are vacuum leaks on the fuel line they should help. Adding a fine filter is also not a bad thing.
> 
> ...


Thanks once again for sharing so much of your practical experience about all this. 

As far as my boiler, (or related systems) it just started malfunctioning within about the last week or so: suddenly guzzling oil and it’s not especially cold here. Today, I noticed the indirectly heated hot water has turned way too hot, 134F at the kitchen sink. The boiler is due for annual service this month so I had been planning for that anyway. Hopefully, the oil burning technician can fix it if it’s a burner or a tank thermostat problem and it won’t involve any plumbing. He might well offer again to put in the tiger loop so I wanted to have some idea what he was talking about. 

As far as why I particularly care regarding possible power outages, I’m influenced by my next door neighbor’s experience. She had some plumbing freeze during a not especially long outage last winter and she’s still struggling eight months later to repair the damage, and she can easily afford fixing it. It has just been difficult getting the right people to do the right things in order to remedy the situation. I’d like to be proactive, within reason. 

Another reason is because we’re on wetlands and our sump pump runs most of the year. There are separate battery backups one can purchase for sumps,  so I’m trying to figure out how that compares to getting a generator. Because we’re on wetlands we need to be extremely careful with any liquid fuel storage, hence the Roth. We only have electric yard tools. 

Disconnecting the oil tank in order to pour fuel into a container, which is then used to run an outdoor diesel generator, which is then used to power up a reconnected oil burner hydronic heating system doesn’t sound very realistic, and probably wouldn’t be an effective heating strategy even for a doomsday scenario. 

Probably you were just saying that the oil tank could be used as reserve fuel for a generator for a long time, if one had selected a diesel generator. But that still begs the question, which I think was posed from the very beginning of this thread which is: “what’s a good strategy to keep elderly people maintaining a basic level of heat in their homes in the event of power outages, considering many of them wouldn’t have the physical strength to deal with wood?” Getting outside in deep snow to run a generator and dragging heavy cords around in the snow all sounds a lot more strenuous to me than tossing a few logs into a wood stove, but perhaps I’m overestimating the difficulty…. So supposing you get a generator going, have you and others most commonly been running electric space heaters off of a generator in a section of your house?


----------



## peakbagger (Dec 6, 2021)

ToastyRanch said:


> Thanks once again for sharing so much of your practical experience about all this.
> 
> As far as my boiler, (or related systems) it just started malfunctioning within about the last week or so: suddenly guzzling oil and it’s not especially cold here. Today, I noticed the indirectly heated hot water has turned way too hot, 134F at the kitchen sink. The boiler is due for annual service this month so I had been planning for that anyway. Hopefully, the oil burning technician can fix it if it’s a burner or a tank thermostat problem and it won’t involve any plumbing. He might well offer again to put in the tiger loop so I wanted to have some idea what he was talking about.
> 
> ...


Your questions deserve a new thread. There are no perfect options just risks with backups. Much as we dont want to admit it everyone will either be dependent on someone else at some point to look over them or they will save a bullet for when they cant take care of themselves. In theory there is a social safety net for the elderly and infirm that is generally poorly funded as folks that typically need the help are not long term voters. Of course, that net fails during major events and that what you read about in the news on occasion. 

So it comes down to risks and backups. The best option is build a zero energy home with passive features. They cost more but the occupants can go days in cold weather with no need for external heat. Throw a solar array on one with a hybrid inverter and battery and with the exception of domestic water and a sump pump they do not need utility power. Its highly likely that the lot its built on was selected not to need a sump pump. That is obviously not practical for most, so they need to balance the risk of living in a house versus paying someone else to take care of them.  A lot of folks have spent the money for permanently installed backup generators with auto transfer switches, ideally, they run on natural gas or propane but they can be diesel. That backs up the house in its entirety for power until the tank runs dry. For most folks, the backup plan is good house insurance and a hotel room somewhere. Eventually the emergency will be over and after a fight with the insurance adjuster the house will get fixed with quite few out of pocket expenses along the way.  

My planning is lot deeper than that with several backups, some tested some not. If I lose power,  I flip a few switches and run off a home microgrid I have been assembling. Most folks would definitely not go that far but its hobby for me. Prior to that I have a gas generator, a cheater cord and a wood stove in my basement that has heated the entire house in the past for 20 hours with no power. I have a deep well normally, but I do have a backup surface well just in case that I can get to with a bucket and rope. I also have learned and practice a lot of skills over the years to DIY. I am not a boiler tech but I can clean one in a pinch and change a nozzle. I can do my own electrical work and plumbing because I took the time to learn. If I didnt, I would have to find a reliable local backup. Even with my current home there are limitations and if and when I build a new home, I will take what I learnt at this one and build a better more self sufficient one next time.  

Your comment about your oil boiler consuming lots of fuel and running poorly is something  of concern to deal with immediately. An oil boiler out of tune can plug its heat exchanger in a matter of days. It will usually run until it will not run and then it may vent into the house for some period of time. The soot that blows into the house can cause thousands of dollars in damage although it may not matter to the occupants as they may be dead from CO poisoning. If it truly running that bad call for emergency service or pay a premium to get someone there quicker. That is a no brainer to me.


----------



## woodgeek (Dec 6, 2021)

@ToastyRanch  I will second peakbagger on getting the boiler checked out asap.  Many years ago, mine was a little out of tune, sooted up and started blowing CO.  Sadly, the amount of CO was just below the level that would trip a CO detector, but still plenty to give the whole family symptoms for months.  Then, finally, a CO detector bleeped ONCE in the middle of the night, and we figured it out.

As for the sump, a have a finished basement built into the side of a hill...it flooded several times before I redid the sump system.  I am a HUGE fan of the battery backup systems (with AGM batteries).  They cost $500 but the peace of mind is awesome.  What if you lose power when its running...now you are racing the water.  What if you are asleep?  Travelling?  At work?  I don't really worry about the battery running for days bc it only has to last until I get my backup power running.

I had a great time for years running a $100 HarborFright two-stroke gas genny, with a box of sparkplugs and extension cords run in through a window.  I always ran it dry, it always started on the first pull.  Now I use a 2kW sine wave inverter on my EV, backfed to run all the 120V circuits in my house.  I can plug it into the car in the garage, and don't even have to go outside.


----------



## begreen (Dec 7, 2021)

ToastyRanch said:


> Getting outside in deep snow to run a generator and dragging heavy cords around in the snow all sounds a lot more strenuous to me than tossing a few logs into a wood stove, but perhaps I’m overestimating the difficulty…. So supposing you get a generator going, have you and others most commonly been running electric space heaters off of a generator in a section of your house?


Our generator is in the garage. When I need to run it I open the garage door and have its exhaust pointing out the door. If the house has several critical systems that need power (heat, water, septic) then a dedicated 7-10Kw generator may make sense. I appreciate your concerns on taking care of the wetlands. For this reason and for stabile fuel storage, propane makes better sense here. No worry about spillage or fuel getting stale.


----------



## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Dec 8, 2021)

So I may not end up going with the BioHeat option after all. The company came to do the equipment inspection yesterday. I just had the boiler refurbished and I think the guy did a good thorough job. One thing he said was that the fire safety valve was pretty stubborn and he had to mess with it to get better flow going. He suggested looking into a tiger loop. Anyway, I think when working over there a little oil spilled - a few drops on the underside of the tank in that area.  New company saw that and won’t deliver since they think the tank is compromised. 

I’m taking a wait and see approach for that. I cleaned up any oil and will check for any future signs of a leak. I don’t want the expense of a new tank but will do it if it’s actually needed. It is old so it’s probably something I’ll have to do at some point. 

I was thinking though that BioHeat may not be great for an older tank like mine. As it cleans out the sludge is it possible that the sludge is what’s helping to seal the tank now? Again I’m changing it out at the first new sign of a leak but I wouldn’t want to hasten it’s demise any.


----------



## peakbagger (Dec 8, 2021)

FYI, the tanks rot from the inside out and when they fail they can fail quick. My parents had an older tank that looked fine. My mom saw a minor wet spot underneath after a fill and put a pan under the wet spot, it was not a puddle just a drop or two. She mentioned it off hand and I told them to call the oil dealer. They came over the next day and pumped it out and swapped it. Once out they showed my parents that they could push a screwdriver through it in several places with little or no pressure. BTW, they usually fail or stop leaking after a fill up. The specs have changed over the years on tank thicknesses. If its more than 30 years old, its time to change it out. I think in some areas the dealers cannot fill a tank over a certain age and some insurance companies require a change out after some time limit or exclude damage from oil leaks. The Roth type tanks take up a lot less room than a standard tank.  The damage is done I do not think biodiesel will undo the past damage.

I lost a fuel line on my tank, I caught it fairly quickly as it as just seeping but my basement stank of fuel oil for several months.  I have known a few folks who have a tank let loose in their basement. They had to gut the basement, steam clean everthing and then abrasive blast the concrete and seal it with some sort of sealant to get rid of the smell. The houses were unlivable until they were cleaned up.

BTW, in order to check tank thickness, the metal needs to be cleaned of any surface coating to use standard thickness testing equipment. That cleaning may be the thing that creates a leak.


----------



## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Dec 8, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> FYI, the tanks rot from the inside out and when they fail they can fail quick. My parents had an older tank that looked fine. My mom saw a minor wet spot underneath after a fill and put a pan under the wet spot, it was not a puddle just a drop or two. She mentioned it off hand and I told them to call the oil dealer. They came over the next day and pumped it out and swapped it. Once out they showed my parents that they could push a screwdriver through it in several places with little or no pressure. BTW, they usually fail or stop leaking after a fill up. The specs have changed over the years on tank thicknesses. If its more than 30 years old, its time to change it out. I think in some areas the dealers cannot fill a tank over a certain age and some insurance companies require a change out after some time limit or exclude damage from oil leaks. The Roth type tanks take up a lot less room than a standard tank.  The damage is done I do not think biodiesel will undo the past damage.
> 
> I lost a fuel line on my tank, I caught it fairly quickly as it as just seeping but my basement stank of fuel oil for several months.  I have known a few folks who have a tank let loose in their basement. They had to gut the basement, steam clean everthing and then abrasive blast the concrete and seal it with some sort of sealant to get rid of the smell. The houses were unlivable until they were cleaned up.
> 
> BTW, in order to check tank thickness, the metal needs to be cleaned of any surface coating to use standard thickness testing equipment. That cleaning may be the thing that creates a leak.



Yeah - my post was premature… after posting I went to basement and sure enough a new drop was hanging from the bottom of the tank. So out with the old and in with the new and I’ll be cutting my fossil fuel use in half with a fresh new tank. 

Oil is such a pain. So is wood, but at least I get some exercise and enjoyment out of it.  I still look forward to a day when I’m getting heat from renewable electrons. Hopefully getting a shoulder season heat pump in the next few years. After all that I’ll probably be down from 200 gallons of fossil fuel now to about 50. Not too bad.


----------



## peakbagger (Dec 8, 2021)

Well its good you caught it. Sucks that you need to buy a new one, but trust me, it beats the alternative.  I have two tanks and really do not normally use oil anymore. One tank is over 30 years and my plan is to pull that and run with the other newer one or maybe get back a lot of real estate in the basement and get rid of both and put a Roth like tank in their place.  I figure cleaning out and cutting up two tanks will not take much longer than one. The biggest hassle is storing the oil in the tank temporarily during the swap.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 9, 2021)

NoGoodAtScreenNames said:


> Yeah - my post was premature… after posting I went to basement and sure enough a new drop was hanging from the bottom of the tank. So out with the old and in with the new and I’ll be cutting my fossil fuel use in half with a fresh new tank.
> 
> Oil is such a pain. So is wood, but at least I get some exercise and enjoyment out of it.  I still look forward to a day when I’m getting heat from renewable electrons. Hopefully getting a shoulder season heat pump in the next few years. After all that I’ll probably be down from 200 gallons of fossil fuel now to about 50. Not too bad.


To replace our tank with a new Roth we went with a local independent technician (one man show) and it was roughly 2k less than going with a larger company. It was pre-pandemic so there was no shipping delay, so take that into account. Anyway, I’m on Cape Ann.  If you’re reasonably close to here, (I’m guessing his service area goes as far as west as Beverly). If you are in my vicinity, I’ll PM you his contact info….


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 9, 2021)

woodgeek said:


> @ToastyRanch  I will second peakbagger on getting the boiler checked out asap.  Many years ago, mine was a little out of tune, sooted up and started blowing CO.  Sadly, the amount of CO was just below the level that would trip a CO detector, but still plenty to give the whole family symptoms for months.  Then, finally, a CO detector bleeped ONCE in the middle of the night, and we figured it out.
> 
> As for the sump, a have a finished basement built into the side of a hill...it flooded several times before I redid the sump system.  I am a HUGE fan of the battery backup systems (with AGM batteries).  They cost $500 but the peace of mind is awesome.  What if you lose power when its running...now you are racing the water.  What if you are asleep?  Travelling?  At work?  I don't really worry about the battery running for days bc it only has to last until I get my backup power running.
> 
> I had a great time for years running a $100 HarborFright two-stroke gas genny, with a box of sparkplugs and extension cords run in through a window.  I always ran it dry, it always started on the first pull.  Now I use a 2kW sine wave inverter on my EV, backfed to run all the 120V circuits in my house.  I can plug it into the car in the garage, and don't even have to go outside.


Thanks for your concern about my boiler situation, to both you and @peakbagger. I contacted the service technician for the second time yesterday and he’s coming tomorrow morning…. Doing a bit more reading and thinking, I think the number one problem is User Error on our part. Basically we installed new (programmable) thermostats in 2/3 of our heating zones. Then when our boiler still didn’t give us the expected heat output, we reset it from the summer fuel economy savings to the factory defaults. This reset of the whole system worked well for a month when the calls for heat were intermittent. We had been used to our thermostats frequently undershooting our set temperature by 5F, so we failed to appreciate the consequences of actually hitting the target range constantly and with consistently somewhat lower outside temperatures. This has made the residual heat in the boiler high enough that the water heater is running a bit too hot…. Sure enough I just checked and the temperature and pressure relief valve (edit— on the water storage tank) is slightly open and there’s been a tiny bit of water spotting coming from it…. At this point we will just wait until tomorrow to talk to the technician for improving our safety.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 9, 2021)

woodgeek said:


> @ToastyRanch  I will second peakbagger on getting the boiler checked out asap.  Many years ago, mine was a little out of tune, sooted up and started blowing CO.  Sadly, the amount of CO was just below the level that would trip a CO detector, but still plenty to give the whole family symptoms for months.  Then, finally, a CO detector bleeped ONCE in the middle of the night, and we figured it out.
> 
> As for the sump, a have a finished basement built into the side of a hill...it flooded several times before I redid the sump system.  I am a HUGE fan of the battery backup systems (with AGM batteries).  They cost $500 but the peace of mind is awesome.  What if you lose power when its running...now you are racing the water.  What if you are asleep?  Travelling?  At work?  I don't really worry about the battery running for days bc it only has to last until I get my backup power running.
> 
> I had a great time for years running a $100 HarborFright two-stroke gas genny, with a box of sparkplugs and extension cords run in through a window.  I always ran it dry, it always started on the first pull.  Now I use a 2kW sine wave inverter on my EV, backfed to run all the 120V circuits in my house.  I can plug it into the car in the garage, and don't even have to go outside.


@woodgeek quick question. Is adding a battery backup to a sump pump roughly the same skill level as converting a receptacle into a GFCI, installing a ceiling fan onto a fan box, (and doing these things when the wires have been installed in reverse of conventional polarity)? In other words as people who are good at reading instructions and troubleshooting but not especially experienced,  do you think we have roughly enough skill to install it ourselves? We’ve got so many projects to do that we’d rather not pay people for the easy stuff, when possible.


----------



## woodgeek (Dec 9, 2021)

The system I used is this one:









						Basement Watchdog 0.33 HP Special + Battery Backup Sump Pump System BWSP - The Home Depot
					

The Basement Watchdog Special Connect is our most popular battery backup sump pump system. It incorporates most of the sought after features of premium level backups. It will provide 24 hour a day monitoring,



					www.homedepot.com
				












						Basement Watchdog Maintenance Free (AGM) Standby Battery BW-27AGM - The Home Depot
					

The Basement Watchdog Maintenance Free AGM Battery is completely sealed making it the perfect choice for years of reliable service for your battery backup sump pump system without having to add battery



					www.homedepot.com
				




The battery needs to be replaced (and recycled) every 5-7 years.

Basically a 12V DC pump in parallel with your existing AC pump, and its own check valve.  The 12V wiring is trivial (it has its own battery box for a big AGM battery).  You place the float switch above that of the main pump, so if the main pump works, the backup never trips.  You need to be comfortable working with 2" PVC pipes (sawing the pipe and solvent welding the fittings).  Its not a big project.


----------



## ToastyRanch (Dec 10, 2021)

woodgeek said:


> The system I used is this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for providing some advice on the basics of this process and for the product recommendations. I haven’t cut and glued pvc pipe before, but I’ve watched it done a few times so this helps give me sense of what this project entails…. We actually were going to do a big basement waterproofing upgrade including a battery sump backup when we first got the house just over a year ago. However, they didn’t want to touch anything until we got a Roth tank for the oil, on account of the potential wetlands liability. So we had to use up the full tank the previous owners had included in the listing price and then replace the tank, which all happened last December. Of course the minute we got a new oil tank, our roof and chimney started leaking from an usually heavy snow load, and by the time those things got fixed, lots of other things both pertaining to and unrelated to the house needed immediate attention, and so here we are and a year has passed.


----------



## woodgeek (Dec 12, 2021)

ToastyRanch said:


> Thanks for providing some advice on the basics of this process and for the product recommendations. I haven’t cut and glued pvc pipe before, but I’ve watched it done a few times so this helps give me sense of what this project entails…. We actually were going to do a big basement waterproofing upgrade including a battery sump backup when we first got the house just over a year ago. However, they didn’t want to touch anything until we got a Roth tank for the oil, on account of the potential wetlands liability. So we had to use up the full tank the previous owners had included in the listing price and then replace the tank, which all happened last December. Of course the minute we got a new oil tank, our roof and chimney started leaking from an usually heavy snow load, and by the time those things got fixed, lots of other things both pertaining to and unrelated to the house needed immediate attention, and so here we are and a year has passed.


It took me 7 years (and three floods due to the *pro-installed* AC pump system being incorrectly installed) to fix the AC pump, and put in the backup.  Never enough time.  But so nice not to have to worry anymore.


----------

