# Garn move at last



## Como (Jan 5, 2012)

Tomorrow we connect the insulated lines to the building and run them to the slab.

I dug the trench, now partly filled with snow but tomorrow is supposed to be a warm day.

The ground is a bit lumpy, but this puppy made it easy to move.


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## bioman (Jan 5, 2012)

Looks like progress, what a great feeling !


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 5, 2012)

Como said:
			
		

> Tomorrow we connect the insulated lines to the building and run them to the slab.
> 
> I dug the trench, now partly filled with snow but tomorrow is supposed to be a warm day.
> 
> The ground is a bit lumpy, but this puppy made it easy to move.


Always nice to see a Garn being installed. As a person who has moved many a piece of heavy machinery with a hard tired forklift on ground, those all terrain forklift/loaders are nice. Randy


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## Floydian (Jan 5, 2012)

Nice to see you making some good progress, David. 

Just so you know, I'm hoping for a picture of Thing 1 and Thing 2 together with the hotel in the background.

Good luck with tomorrows adventures in hydronics,

Noah


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## Como (Jan 5, 2012)

Well this has some scenery in the background.


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## Gasifier (Jan 5, 2012)

Really nice. Hope all goes well for ya with the install. Remember, lots of pictures! That is a nice looking toy you have there!


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## Floydian (Jan 5, 2012)

Very nice!

Almost 4000 gallons and 700k btuh's. Wow.

What r-value are you aiming for around the Garns?

And what size underground lines are you running?

Noah


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## Como (Jan 5, 2012)

The lines are 2 inch.

The building walls will be R28.

I am slightly offsetting them and of course they are round, the shortest point from boiler to wall will be 12 inches ish, so if I fill that up it would be R70? I have nearly that now in the attic.

They are not quite in their final position, will do that tomorrow or the day after.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 5, 2012)

Very nice!! When do you expect to fire ?


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## heaterman (Jan 7, 2012)

A construction lift/skytrac is the berries for moving a Garn. We took five off a semi in 20 minutes last month.
 You just don't want to boom out to far with almost 2 tons hanging on it. Experience has shown that you can put a machine weighing 12,000# on its nose rather easily........don't ask......


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## Tennman (Jan 7, 2012)

Been around those off-road lifts and I was thinking how the Garn made it look small! Congrats. Looks like the hotel is doing well. So a Garn for your house and one for the hotel? I'd guess a pair of underground lines for each Garn? 2" is a very big energy pipe, you running a pair 2" lines for each Garn? And then I just have to ask... how did you insulate those 2" lines? My wife and I love visting the old mines and towns like Ouray, Telluride, Cripple Creek, Silverton all along the million dollar highway. You in that part of CO? Sorry for the interogation just a facinating story. You know what they say about inquiring minds.....


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 9, 2012)

Looking good David.  Keep the pictures coming.  You know what a short attention span we have . . .


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## TCaldwell (Jan 10, 2012)

Is the foam board under there?


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## Como (Jan 10, 2012)

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> Is the foam board under there?



There is under the concrete. And another layer when I set them in their final place, you can see it stacked between the Boilers:


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## Como (Jan 10, 2012)

A better view with the Insulated pipe coming out of the slab.


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 10, 2012)

2 Garns!  Twice as awesome.  Keep up the good work.


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## Como (Jan 11, 2012)

Now in their final position with foam underneath. A friend of mine said last week that it was 100F warmer than the same day last year.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 11, 2012)

Kinda makes you wonder if you need all that heat.


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## heaterman (Jan 11, 2012)

It is warm here in Michigan also. There is no snow, my grass is green and there is very little frost in the ground except where it's in the shade. We have had about zero service work this winter so far. As I type this the sky is crystal clear and the OD temp is 31*. Normal January temps under a high pressure system like right now would be 0 to -15*. This is nuts. Just hoping we don't pay for it in April and May...........


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## Sawyer (Jan 11, 2012)

That weather sure makes doing the install a lot easier on the fingers David. I am enjoying your photo progress; looking forward to the next shots.

It is 30 degrees here with Lake effect Snow Advisory in effect from 6 PM this evening to noon Friday. Maybe winter will start soon. Snowmobile trails need a refreshing.


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## maple1 (Jan 11, 2012)

Sled trails need a freshing here - latest start in a long time. Bare ground everywhere - crazy weather times indeed.


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## bigburner (Jan 11, 2012)

shouldn't #2847 be on the left??? Building looks too small, it's not to late for more. Going to name them ??


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## Como (Jan 12, 2012)

It is 28x16

I have a slight advantage in that I do not need to keep my wood undercover, bigger building is always nice, this kept on getting bigger and bigger...

My estimation is 50 cords a year, but we are essentially a high semi arid desert, not a lot of moisture and anything from October to June is snow.

Temperature this afternoon was 40F lower than yesterday, I have been backfilling the trench with sand, the load today froze into the truck bed.

I have a marker pen.....

Burnie and Burnice has been suggested?


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## RowCropRenegade (Jan 12, 2012)

Burt and Ernie, hehe.

Wow what a heatload for 50 cords per year!  I bet you are itching to get em fired up.  Enjoying watching your progress.


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## bigburner (Jan 12, 2012)

Cheech & Chong, up in smoke!


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## bioman (Jan 12, 2012)

50 cords a year, WOW hope there's warranty on the door hinges, cuz thats alot of wood.


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## DaBackBurner (Jan 12, 2012)

Two is prettier than one. Love it...keep the pictures coming.

Como-estas and Como-tose


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## Como (Jan 24, 2012)

So most of the rear plumbing has been done. Snow tonight, Wednesday and Thursday looking good.

You may be wondering what happened to the white stuff, we had nearly 2 weeks of violent winds. They closed US285 for most of yesterday.

The panels for the structure arrived last Wednesday  whilst my original idea was to off load them onto the slab, the wind suggested otherwise.

I am going to wrap them initially with Roxul, then if needed will blow in insulation to fill the area leaving access for the pumps.


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## bioman (Jan 24, 2012)

Looks really good David. good job !


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## Sawyer (Jan 24, 2012)

Something about a pair that is really impressive! Looking forward to the next update.


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## Como (Feb 1, 2012)

Well we have hit a glitch, delayed us a few days. Plus the wind last week kept blowing the plumbers torch out. We are still unseasonally warm, have not been below 0F for a few weeks.

One thing I did not know, never seen it mentioned here or in the documentation, and which I will pass on is that when you have more than one Garn they should be operated together. My original plan was to operate both in Winter and one or the other in Summer.

Also you will see that each Garn had its own Pump, there must be one pump for all the Boilers.

Hopefully this will help anybody else considering a similar set up.


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## bpirger (Feb 1, 2012)

Wouldn't that just depend on how they are plumbed?  So if you plumbed them both separately as a secondary supply into a primary loop, couldn't you then feed the primary either from Bert, or Ernie, or both?  I don't see why you have to burn them both all the time....why would they know the other is present?

As for names, do you have two dominate peaks visible from your location?  Everest and K2?  And yes, I know you can't see them.


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## DaBackBurner (Feb 1, 2012)

Como said:
			
		

> Well we have hit a glitch, delayed us a few days. Plus the wind last week kept blowing the plumbers torch out. We are still unseasonally warm, have not been below 0F for a few weeks.
> 
> One thing I did not know, never seen it mentioned here or in the documentation, and which I will pass on is that when you have more than one Garn they should be operated together. My original plan was to operate both in Winter and one or the other in Summer.
> 
> ...



Why is that David? I've seen and read about multiple boiler staging but these were standard boilers without storage. Each boiler was plumbed in parallel into a large header loop (boiler loop) with each boiler having its own pump. The primary loop was hydraulically separated from the boiler loop either with closely spaced 'T' or hydraulic separator, as was the secondary loop(s). Not quite understanding why you couldn't do this. You would have to wait until say Garn2 was up to temp to have any benefit of adding BTU output to the boiler loop but that seems doable.


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## Como (Feb 1, 2012)

Well the guy who designed the system, all now operational ex Garn's, is now retired but has done thousands of systems. But not Garn's.

The info came from the top at Dectra.

Apparently with Garn's that is just the way it is, obviously with other Boilers, like my Triangle Tube, cascading systems are normal.

Anyway I had to get the W2's out and I still have year end accounts etc etc, so I will get it done the recommended way. I know we will get hit with bad weather soon.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 1, 2012)

Como said:
			
		

> Well the guy who designed the system, all now operational ex Garn's, is now retired but has done thousands of systems. But not Garn's.
> 
> The info came from the top at Dectra.
> 
> ...



Very interesting.
Would love to learn the details why staging or cascading is not possible with Garns.


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## jebatty (Feb 1, 2012)

Would like to know the reason why they cannot be operated separately. I'm aware of a Garn WHS3200 and a Wood Gun E500 both plumbed into a primary loop, each can be operated separately or both together. Garn raised no issue with this installation. The primary loop also has plumbed into it a 4000 gallon pressurized storage tank which operates as a hydraulic separator. Since the system is pressurized, the Garn connects via a plate hx.

One beauty of this system is that, in effect, 7200 gallons of storage are available, as the Garn or the Wood Gun operating separately or both together have  available total system storage.


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## Como (Feb 1, 2012)

I think in the particular comparison my Triangle Tube is in a similar position to the Wood Gun.

Except my storage is  less than 200 gallons.


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## bioman (Feb 2, 2012)

I'd send one back and just hook up 2000 Gal storage and never look back. i think you've been sucked in to GARNAMONIOUS. MHO.


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 2, 2012)

I think you will find after reading some of David's posts that he did his research, established his loads, weighed his options, investigated boiler models that worked for his situation & then made his choice.
Far from being sucked in as you put it.
David: as far as I can tell from your post & this thread there is no reason that one could not run those 2 boilers however you choose. 
One at a time, both at once, alternating, whatever you want. 
The only restriction would be how it's plumbed & pumped. 
Unless of course the is some funky monkey regulation in your state preventing that?
Again, wide open to being corrected on that.


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## jebatty (Feb 2, 2012)

> Frozen Canuck: David: as far as I can tell from your post & this thread there is no reason that one could not run those 2 boilers however you choose.



David says that the info that they cannot be run together -- 





> The info came from the top at Dectra.



In my experience if Dectra says something and if an owner does something contrary, then Dectra may take the position that the warranty is void.


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## bigburner (Feb 2, 2012)

If it was me lecturing a class on best design practice with equipment that has wildly different operating potential based on load size and quality. Then I would instruct that for that reason it wouldn't shouldn't be connected like a tandem gas boilers. [like in the picture] That the proper way would be let each unit operate independent as possible and then contribute to the system. In this case make each boiler a secondary contributor to the primary loop around the HX. Each heat source should not be effected by the other, projects in the past have connected, geothermal, gas and wood all to the same system.


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## maple1 (Feb 2, 2012)

jebatty said:
			
		

> > Frozen Canuck: David: as far as I can tell from your post & this thread there is no reason that one could not run those 2 boilers however you choose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It would be interesting to know exactly what the issue they are seeing is, though.


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## Como (Feb 2, 2012)

These are the two options


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## leaddog (Feb 2, 2012)

I don't see it but I'm sure that you can have shutoff valves so you can shut one or the other down and just run one. You would want to be able to balance them out also. That setup would save pumps and other plumbing. 
leaddog


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## bioman (Feb 2, 2012)

I would have to agree with leaddog on this +1.


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## Como (Feb 3, 2012)

We re plumbed it today, I have some weather coming in so have prep'd enogh wood for the stoves for a week.

Put some extra valves in, just in case.


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## Sawyer (Feb 3, 2012)

Glad to see you are making progress David. I am sure you are very anxious to fire up efficiently!


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## maple1 (Feb 3, 2012)

I am thinking the Garn people might have issues with using shut off valves to isolate one of two boilers, as they could see potential for someone to light a fire and forget to open valves - which would be a bad thing. Just a thought.


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## heaterman (Feb 3, 2012)

maple1 said:
			
		

> I am thinking the Garn people might have issues with using shut off valves to isolate one of two boilers, as they could see potential for someone to light a fire and forget to open valves - which would be a bad thing. Just a thought.



^ That wouldn't really be an issue. It is impossible to "overheat" a Garn and a full fire with no circulation is no cause for alarm. The worst case scenario would be stoking one up when the tank is already at 190-200 and literally bringing all the water to full boil. At that point one would have a neighborhood sized sauna stove going in the building but nothing more.


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## maple1 (Feb 3, 2012)

Well in that case, I'm more curious as to why they rule out running one at a time in a dual install.


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## heaterman (Feb 3, 2012)

maple1 said:
			
		

> Well in that case, I'm more curious as to why they rule out running one at a time in a dual install.



There is no issue with running them one at a time as far as the Garns themselves are concerned. It is possible however that the person(s) making that recommendation were thinking of pumping issues and flow available in the piping due to the altitude that pair are located. Air pressure at 10,000 feet is less than the altitude most of us live at and that introduces the factor of suction boiling and cavitation at a reduced water temperatures. When piping up an open or semi  open system such as the Garn little things like that can make/break an installation.


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## DaBackBurner (Feb 3, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

> There is no issue with running them one at a time as far as the Garns themselves are concerned. It is possible however that the person(s) making that recommendation were thinking of pumping issues and flow available in the piping due to the altitude that pair are located. Air pressure at 10,000 feet is less than the altitude most of us live at and that introduces the factor of suction boiling and cavitation at a reduced water temperatures. When piping up an open or semi  open system such as the Garn little things like that can make/break an installation.



AHHHHHH Thank you! This was impinging on my harmony with the maul. (I'm sure someone will disrupt it again, but that's ok.)

BTW, how's the install coming along David? Any new pictures?


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## Frozen Canuck (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks, Heaterman. That is exactly what I was searching for/inquiring about, an (actual physical reason) this install would be done this way. Makes total sense.


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## Como (Feb 3, 2012)

All covered in snow, so Monday. 

The diagrams above came from Garn, no discussion took place about my altitude and judging by the speed they were sent they are stock diagrams, not specific to my project.

Martin said that people had tried it other ways but this is the way to do it.


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## Como (Mar 31, 2012)




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## Jim K in PA (Apr 5, 2012)

Is your snow all gone already David?  Looking good.


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