# Vermont Castings Defiant® FlexBurn™ any thoughts?



## tcraigscott (Nov 25, 2012)

Hello all,

been a while since I have been on the forums, but thought I would try to tap some of the knowledge around here.

I am looking at getting a new woodstove. Was originally considering the Harman TL-300. Like the top load feature and had some friends with them they really liked them. A little pricey here in Canada though ($3000)

Then I came across this stove

http://vermontcastings.com/family/Stoves/Convertible/Defiant-FlexBurn/

Top load converts from Cat to Non sharp looking unit. They also have a model one size down. The encore.

I haven't been able to find any reviews or user comments on them (or get an idea of pricing for that matter)

Anyone out there have any experience with these stoves?

Thanks,

Craig


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 25, 2012)

A flat black Defiant will run you about $2,800 in my area.

Pros:
The new units use a less expensive cat which is about $100 cheaper than the previous design.
The catalytic assembly is a more durable material which should last longer and is cheaper to replace than the previous design.
Burn times are 10-14 hours for the most part with owners reporting up to 18 hours. Your home size, insulation, and location will determine where you fall for burn times.

Cons:
VC stoves are still more maintenance intensive than most other stoves. The stove uses a lot of gaskets that require upkeep.
The VC cat system is still behind Blaze King and Woodstock. Locking in at low temps isn't always easy.

If you are willing to spend $2,800 on a Defiant, you should look at the Woodstock Progress stove as it will offer longer burn times with minimal maintenance needs.


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## webby3650 (Nov 25, 2012)

Also, the Lopi Cape cod is gonna come in around the $3,000 range. This is a hybrid, but there is no need to remove the cat and it has all the Secondary burn tubes. It has a huge cat mounted above the baffle. This a very impressive stove. I install lots of different stoves and Vermont Castings is one of them. If you want a dependable stove with little maintenance, then I would keep looking. It might make a great stove for you, as it has for others, but it's not for everybody. Here is a Cape Cod I put in a while back.


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## slindo (Nov 25, 2012)

Browning has pretty well said it all, but I might add one other con, that the company doesn't seem to give a damn about its customers, and has been gouging buyers of previous model, trouble-prone, stoves on replacement part prices. Time will tell whether the current models have fixed the problems of the earlier ones, but the company's treatment of the existing customer base does not bode well for the buyers of current models and has driven a lot  of serious wood burners and former VC owners away from the brand.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 25, 2012)

If you are just interested in 10-14 hour burns with a decent stove top temp then I bet BrowningBar will have another suggestion for ya after he gets a little more time in with his new stove.


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## jharkin (Nov 26, 2012)

BrowningBAR said:


> A flat black Defiant will run you about $2,800 in my area.
> 
> Pros:
> The new units use a less expensive cat which is about $100 cheaper than the previous design.
> ...


 
I agree with BBar.

Having lived with VC stoves for 30 years or so I will second these comments. They do look beautiful; and when maintained and operated* carefully* they are good heaters. And the new 2in1 units are getting much better reviews than the last generation. However there are a lot of other options out there today that will give you similar or better results with less frustration.

I inherited mine when I bought the house, and its cheaper to fix than replace. If I was buying new I'd look at other stoves.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 26, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> If you are just interested in 10-14 hour burns with a decent stove top temp then I bet BrowningBar will have another suggestion for ya after he gets a little more time in with his new stove.


Maybe not 10-14. But 10 is definitely an option with the big steel bastard.


The frustrating thing with the Defiant is that it could be a top of the line stove. When it is locked in and operating right, I will have stove top temps at 500-550 degrees for 10 hours and then it slowly comes down over the last four hours. !4 hours later I could still be at 350.

But, it's just not always possible. You can have the air shut down and all of a sudden it will climb up to 700+ degrees. I'll partially block off the primary which will bring it down, but even then, you have lost time from your burn. The control is sub-par.

If ongoing cost of ownership was on par with other stoves, that is forgivable. But, when you are paying over 3 grand for a new Defiant with a shiny paint job, plus the ongoing costs and time for maintenance, why would you go in this direction?

I'm completely happy with mine. But, my initial cost of ownership was $400. Getting a great heater with a lot of flaws for a couple of bucks will make you very forgiving of those flaws.


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## Ashful (Nov 26, 2012)

tcraigscott said:


> Anyone out there have any experience with these stoves?


 
There's an excellent thread on these stoves, in which one owner (NinoVitale) really goes into some good details:  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/vermont-castings-encore-2-in-1.60640/



BrowningBAR said:


> You can have the air shut down and all of a sudden it will climb up to 700+ degrees. I'll partially block off the primary which will bring it down, but even then, you have lost time from your burn. The control is sub-par.


 
Any theory as to why that's happening?  I assume this must be a thermostatically controlled stove?  Can't imagine that happening with manual air control.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 26, 2012)

Joful said:


> Any theory as to why that's happening? I assume this must be a thermostatically controlled stove? Can't imagine that happening with manual air control.


No theory as of yet. As we get colder my urge to fiddle with stoves decreases as loading frequency increases and I just want the stoves to do their job.


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## tcraigscott (Nov 27, 2012)

Looks like unfortunatly many of the lopi products are not available in Canada. 

Such a hard decision with so many different stoves.

Trying to decide between.

VC encore 
T5
Harman Oakwood
Quadra fire Isle Royal
Jotal Tl50

Tough call, I definitely want to get good burn times for overnight. Want a nice looking stove (going to be in the main living area) and was something that is going to give me little trouble.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 27, 2012)

tcraigscott said:


> Thanks for the info everyone. I had not really considered the Cap Cod. What sort of burn times are people getting with the cap cod?


No reports available. It is a brand new model. It is a 3 cu ft firebox, so you should be able to get 10 hours of usable heat from it. If the cat system is worth a damn, it should offer 12+ hours. But we have no idea how well the cat system works. Does it just act as a secondary cleaner after the burn tubes, or can you actually dampen down the temps like a traditional cat stove and get the long and low burns. No idea at this point.


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## charger4406 (Nov 27, 2012)

I live in quebec and i ordered my cape cod on monday,Lopi website
is misleading because i also thought it was only available in the states,
my dealer has installed 2 other cape cods this year.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 27, 2012)

charger4406 said:


> I live in quebec and i ordered my cape cod on monday,Lopi website
> is misleading because i also thought it was only available in the state,
> my dealer has installed 2 other cape cods this year.


Is the Cape Cod replacing the Defiant?


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## charger4406 (Nov 27, 2012)

Yes,I sold the defiant to my brother who really likes it. 
I wanted to try the Lopi and when he asked if he could
have it I jumped at the chance.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 27, 2012)

charger4406 said:


> Yes,I sold the defiant to my brother who really likes it.
> I wanted to try the Lopi and when he asked if he could
> have it I jumped at the chance.


What issues did you have with the new Defiant?


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## charger4406 (Nov 27, 2012)

None really, temps held steady with long burns and it is a beautiful
stove but my wife did not like the top loading or the frond doors
You know what they say , happy wife,happy life


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 27, 2012)

charger4406 said:


> None really, temps held steady with long burns and it is a beautiful
> stove but my wife did not like the top loading or the frond doors
> You know what they say , happy wife,happy life


Smoke in the house? That's the only reason I can think of for not liking either of those.

Well, good to hear that the stove functioned well for you. Many of us are really interested in how the Cape Cod performs. You should have a nice comparison as they are both about the same size and the VC cat system isn't the greatest. So, it will be interesting to see how the Cape Cod compares.


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## charger4406 (Nov 27, 2012)

Had only 2 backpuffs that I know of,she was afraid of
burning her arms when loading from the top,although
It may have been the look of panic on my face when
she drops 24 inches of oak against the back that made her
nervous.
Can't wait to get my hands on the cape cod, I will
report my findings after I break her in.


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## webby3650 (Nov 27, 2012)

I know that the Cape Cod has a huge cat! It's above the baffle and the tubes. It would be getting the left overs from the tubes, but I think that it could still be choked way down and use the cat to get long burns. I'm pretty sure it's the same cat that is used in the FPX 44 Elite, looks just like it anyway.


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## slindo (Nov 27, 2012)

Hey! Just noticed that the 2-in-1 has become the FlexBurn. Or have they already superseded the 2-in1 with a new model? Seems odd either way, to change the name with no fanfare or explanation.


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## Fire Breathing Dragon (Nov 27, 2012)

I have the new Encore, picked it up in Feb of this year so still a little green on burning with it.  With that said, we have yet to turn our heat on so far this year and it is heating our 2,400 colonial home.  We love the top load feature as there is no chance for the flaming logs to take a tumble out the door while loading.  I would buy another if I needed to, she is treating us great so far and burns little wood for the heat return.  Good luck shopping, you are doing the right thing by asking around, we bought ours at the local Ace Hardware and the folks there (especially the owner) were very knowledgable and helpful with the purchase.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 27, 2012)

slindo said:


> Hey! Just noticed that the 2-in-1 has become the FlexBurn. Or have they already superseded the 2-in1 with a new model? Seems odd either way, to change the name with no fanfare or explanation.


I am pretty sure it was just a name change for marketing purposes.


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## Machria (Nov 27, 2012)

I was looking at the Cape Cod, nice looking unit.  A local dealer had it burning when I was in to see it, he said they were only seeing 8 hour burns max,  but they only had it running a few days so take it for what it's worth.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 28, 2012)

Machria said:


> I was looking at the Cape Cod, nice looking unit. A local dealer had it burning when I was in to see it, he said they were only seeing 8 hour burns max, but they only had it running a few days so take it for what it's worth.


I hope that isn't the case. That's a pretty poor burn for a 3 cu ft stove.


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## webby3650 (Nov 28, 2012)

Machria said:


> I was looking at the Cape Cod, nice looking unit. A local dealer had it burning when I was in to see it, he said they were only seeing 8 hour burns max, but they only had it running a few days so take it for what it's worth.


Well, you know that the dealer is not gonna load the thing down with oak and run it on low. They want a beautiful, active fire that leaves the glass clean. That's what sells stoves to most people, so that's what they are going to do.


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## Ashful (Nov 28, 2012)

webby3650 said:


> Lopi Leyden Oxford Brown
> Lopi Freedom with flush kit
> '83 Webster Oak cat stove-
> CSI Certified chimney sweep/inspector


 
A little aside, but what's a "flush kit"?


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## Machria (Nov 28, 2012)

webby3650 said:


> Well, you know that the dealer is not gonna load the thing down with oak and run it on low. They want a beautiful, active fire that leaves the glass clean. That's what sells stoves to most people, so that's what they are going to do.


 
Yep, agreed.  Like I said, take it for what it's worth.     I do like that unit, nice looking and features.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 28, 2012)

Machria said:


> Yep, agreed. Like I said, take it for what it's worth.  I do like that unit, nice looking and features.


The same was said about the Defiant from several dealers. I was told 9 hours at the most. Turns out 10-14 hours of heat production is very attainable.


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## webby3650 (Nov 28, 2012)

Joful said:


> A little aside, but what's a "flush kit"?


It allows you to move the insert back into the fireplace about 5". It gives it a clean face look.


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