# Tracked Wood Hauling ATV project...



## Lapeer20m (Feb 7, 2014)

My beloved honey badger suffered a catastrophic failure:  The primary clutch broke.  A replacement is between $250-300 on ebay.








I have been toying with the idea of converting the machine to hydraulic drive since i first purchased it.   Now is the time.

I will document the progress below.


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## Lapeer20m (Feb 7, 2014)

The plan is to completely remove the stock powertrain and put a kawasaki engine and hydraulic drive system from a commercial zero turn mower in it's place.  I think the new hydro setup will be slower than the current system, but steering and maneuverability will be significantly improved.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Feb 7, 2014)

That's a nice toy....


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## HybridFyre (Feb 7, 2014)

haha woah that thing is ridiculous


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## tcassavaugh (Feb 7, 2014)

I want one! reminds me of a snow cat. its so cool. 250-300 doesn't sound that bad....especially to get a part to repair such a unique item.


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## Jags (Feb 7, 2014)

I would be concerned that the Zero turn running gear won't be robust enough for reliability.  They really aren't designed as a traction engine drive train like what you are dealing with. I can imagine the machine alone is getting close to 1000#.  Add another 1000 for hauling or pulling and my first knee jerk reaction would be - you are gonna barf parts in the long run.
But full disclosure - I over build everything I do.


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## CenterTree (Feb 7, 2014)

Jags said:


> I would be concerned that the Zero turn running gear won't be robust enough for reliability.  They really aren't designed as a traction engine drive train like what you are dealing with....


But doesn't a Bobcat ( and similar) skid-steer machine use hydraulics?  Those produce a lot of "traction" and have decent amount of weight.

Agree that a system from a Z mower may not be enough though.


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## razerface (Feb 7, 2014)

CenterTree said:


> But doesn't a Bobcat ( and similar) skid-steer machine use hydraulics?  Those produce a lot of "traction" and have decent amount of weight.
> 
> Agree that a system from a Z mower may not be enough though.


Even the smallest hyd system in the smallest bobcat would whup on any mower system.


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## shmodaddy (Feb 7, 2014)

sub'd  for outcome


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## CenterTree (Feb 7, 2014)

razerface said:


> Even the smallest hyd system in the smallest bobcat would whup on any mower system.


Exactly what I mean.


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## greg13 (Feb 7, 2014)

CenterTree said:


> But doesn't a Bobcat ( and similar) skid-steer machine use hydraulics?  Those produce a lot of "traction" and have decent amount of weight.
> 
> Agree that a system from a Z mower may not be enough though.




Skidsteers run 2 hydraulic drive motors & 2 hydraulic pumps. you will need a motor in the area of 60hp to power everything. I would bet close to 1000 pounds of drive & power.

Greg


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## wahoowad (Feb 7, 2014)

absolutely badass. Looks like something Vladimer Putin invented


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## jrems (Feb 7, 2014)

That's pretty cool. I'll see if I can find the video, but a guy I knew put a diesel jet engine in a car that ran a large hydraulic pump. Removed the Original engine, but put an adapter plate to mount the hydraulic motor to the original transmission. It had so much torque you could start moving in 5th gear.


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## D8Chumley (Feb 7, 2014)

That is badass! Also subscribing for the outcome. I'd love to have one of those... If I had too much money, which I don't. How much do they go for anyways?


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## Firewood Bandit (Feb 8, 2014)

Sounds like the $300 for a replacement part would be far cheaper and easier than what you have planned.  I too don't think the hydro motors you have in mind will have the correct torque for your application.  It doesn't take a lot to make a mower move and zero turns are more made for speed.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 8, 2014)

Interesting...


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## Lapeer20m (Feb 11, 2014)

Only 537 hours on the machine according to the meter.




here she is with most of the primary removed...





Apparently to own a PPT you  also need to purchase a front end loader......or in this case a backhoe....




A couple photos of the underside while it's up in the air....


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## Lapeer20m (Feb 11, 2014)

It took almost no time to remove the engine......




Spent a few more hours and the stubborn drivetrane cradle just wouldn't budge.....




I hope to have the drivetrane out tomorrow, and perhaps mock up the new hydro's.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 11, 2014)

You have too many big toys!


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## Lapeer20m (Feb 11, 2014)

As far as the hydro setup, if i didn't think there was a reasonable chance for success i wouldn't put the effort into the conversion.  I know that hydraulic drive works in this application, i just don't know if these particular hydraulic components are well suited to this particular setup.

The big reason for the swap is that the original drive setup has never functioned correctly since i've had the machine in spite of my constant fiddling and adjusting.  Plus it consists of certian components that i likely could not purchase when/if they fail.

If the hydro swap does not work, I plan to restore the original drive setup with the parts i can find while it is out of the vehicle and accessible. 

the hydro system consists of two sets of pump/motors.  One variable flow pump (i don't know the technical term) connected to each hydraulic motor.  The pump has a built in valve that controls the speed/direction of the motor.

This setup will allow the machine to go from forward to reverse without having to stop to change gears.  it should also provide surgical precision  when steering.  

The honey badger final drive is chain driven.  This means that i can simply change the drive sprocket in order to allow the hydraulic motor to give the drive sprocket the appropriate amount of torque.  More torque = less speed.

One thing i am not sure of is the existence of a pressure relief in the system.  If, for instance, the hydraulic motor was unable to turn because the resistance was too great, would a pressure relief valve open, would  the housing of a pump/motor suffer a catastrophic failure, or would the motor simply stop turning and nothing would be damaged?


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## BobUrban (Feb 12, 2014)

WOW -that is really cool. I work in Lapeer often and would love to see in action sometime.


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## Lapeer20m (Feb 12, 2014)

BobUrban said:


> WOW -that is really cool. I work in Lapeer often and would love to see in action sometime.



If it works you are welcome to come check it out (that's my ploy to have help processing firewood lol)


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## Jags (Feb 12, 2014)

Do you have a _specific_ system in mind?  Make/model of drivetrain?  If you did, you could probably pull up specs to see what kind of torque you are dealing with.  If I remember correctly (and that is not guaranteed), I think the gas converted to hydraulic is accepted as a 20% loss.


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## bigbarf48 (Feb 12, 2014)

That thing is AWESOME! Did you build it or buy it?


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## Lapeer20m (Feb 12, 2014)

Jags said:


> Do you have a _specific_ system in mind?  Make/model of drivetrain?  If you did, you could probably pull up specs to see what kind of torque you are dealing with.  If I remember correctly (and that is not guaranteed), I think the gas converted to hydraulic is accepted as a 20% loss.



I appreciate your input and expertise.  I should probably listen to you and save myself a lot of trouble......

Unfortunately i was not able to work on the project at all today......

The setup is from a bunton commercial walk behind mower I bought brand new almost 20 years ago. I do not have the specific make/model number of the hydros or even the specific size. Obviously lawn mower manufactures dont make their own hydraulics, they just bolt things together. It's engineered to pull a sulky with a person on it, plus the weight of the machine itself, combined nearly 750 pounds I would estimate.

Here is a similar pump, it's 10cc/revolution.  

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydrau...-CU-IN-HYDROGEAR-PUMP-10CC-PG-1HCA-9-8052.axd

The motors are cast iron.  




I've used it to pull trailers, skid logs, blow snow, and  mow grass.

The mower drive tires are about 12" in diameter while the honey badger drive sprockets are 8" in diameter.  Geared at a 1:1 ratio the hydros adapted to the honey badger would already produce significantly more torque at the final drive because of this smaller diameter, there would also be corresponding slower top end speed.  Here is the final drive sprocket inside the honey badger with what looks like #25 roller chain?  Wiki indicates that #25 has a tensile strength of about 750 pounds.




Top speed of the mower is an estimated 10mph (faster than I can run) but the controls were adjusted to only allow the machine to travel at a brisk walking speed.

Since honey badger is "down for maintenance" i had to use the backhoe to move firewood today.


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## Jags (Feb 13, 2014)

Its gonna be interesting.


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## Lapeer20m (Feb 13, 2014)

Progress report:

After another couple hours I finally removed the cradle.  I'm a handy guy.  I fabricated my own OWB, i spent a decade building buses with full size jacuzzi's inside,  I consider myself a master tinkerer, and i was really surprised how much effort and time it required just to take this thing apart.  I was careful to not damage anything so that i can put it back together someday if necessary.  The bolts on the underside, had the heads worn down significantly after years of dragging on mud and snow making them impossible to turn with a socket or wrench.   They were in a location that prohibited the use of a grinder, and my torches were not handy, so i ended up blowing them out with the welder turned up to 200 amps.





Then i used a hydraulic jack to lift the cradle out of it's position. I am confident that the new powertrane will be lighter than the original. I did some research and it's likely that the hydraulic motors spin at a max rpm of 400 and produce about 2000 in/lb of torque. If my math is correct, using a 1:1 ratio With an 8" drive wheel that works out to about 7 mph. 




Here are the drive sprockets:


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## Jags (Feb 13, 2014)

That drivetrain looks like it was built for a military tank.


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## ironpony (Feb 13, 2014)

Very ambitious project, I would be tempted to try the same thing. With that being said, after reading this and thinking about it, I think this is what I would do.
The vehicle is probably very old, run hard and slightly abused and it lasted quite along time. My thought would be to rebuild it as it was, it will function better than it did and last along time. The drive train appears to be bullet proof, being what it is moving and hauling. The tracks on that are creating incredible forces on that drive line. To switch to hydros you are looking at needing probably 40 plus horsepower. A zero turn setup MIGHT move it in a straight line, not going to make it turn. when you get enough hydro to turn it you are probably going to start breaking gear boxes/ final drives. Hydraulics have zero give, things break. Belt drive has give and slippage saving other parts. Right now it is fixable, I fear if you go to hydraulics, something breaks that is catastrophic, then you have scrap. The clutch that failed appears to be the same as a golf cart. As long and hard as that has been run, do not change it, it is almost built to perfection. Back when they built things to last.


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## Lapeer20m (Feb 13, 2014)

Maybe 40 hp would be needed to drive this beast with hydro's, but it's important to remember that a skidsteer with 40 hp weighs several thousand pounds more, plus the skidsteer also runs hydraulics for the bucket and arms, plus auxillary hydraulics to run a wood chipper, broom, post hole digger, snow blower etc.

In a few days we will all find out if this hydro setup will run the machine......

I started disassembling the mower.







And mocking it up:




The motors will need to be slightly offset from each other because of space limitations.




I'm going to mount the motor to this 1/4" aluminum plate, and bolt the aluminum to a steel frame.  While dissimilar metals can be a bit of a problem, i don't think it's much of an issue in this application.  I simply don't have any nice sheets of steel laying around.  I like using parts i have on hand rather than buying new.





Next i have to run to town and spend money!  I  need sprockets, and new chain, and hydraulic hoses. while i'm at it i'll also change the hydro and engine oil.  I hope that the chain and the hydraulic lines are standard sizes that i can find them at tractor supply.  The current drive sprocket has 48 teeth, so i plan to start with the same on the hydro's.  If it doesn't make enough torque, then i'll be forced to buy smaller sized sprockets.


Since this machine was built by a company that at one time was french-canadian the sprockets may be some crazy metric size in which case i'll have to purchase two sets.


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## ironpony (Feb 13, 2014)

A+ for effort and ingenuity. I was not wanting to come across as being negative, just a different point of view. I look forward to the maiden run.


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## greg13 (Feb 13, 2014)

Keep a close eye on the Aluminum for cracks, I am not sure if it will hold up to the constant torque changes.

Greg


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## Lapeer20m (Feb 15, 2014)

I wish i had more time to devote to this project, but i worked 72 hours this week, plus i have family obligations.  When i was a younger man, i would work 20 hours straight on these sort of crazy projects.  

I "mounted" the sprocket to the motor.   The sprocket still needs to be trued and welded.  

I cut a hole in the aluminum plate:





and mounted the motor to the plate:




Then i set the plate on the honey badger in order to mock up exactly where it should rest. I obviously need to cut off the excess aluminum plate, but i didn't have the proper cutting tool handy tonight.  













Next i have to actually mount the aluminum plate and repeat the process for the other side.   Then pretty much all i have to do is  connect the hydraulic lines and take it for a test drive.  

Total spent so far is about $130.00.  I have reconsidered, and i am hoping to NOT purchase new hydraulic lines.  Mine do not have the standard fittings found at tractor supply.  Buying them from a custom hydraulic hose shop will probably cost another hundred bucks.


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## Lapeer20m (Feb 15, 2014)

A couple more photos....

here is showing the size of the new sprocket compared to the stock tire.  I was wrong and the tire is 16" in diameter.  The drive sprocket is only 8", so there is more gear reduction than i originally anticipated.  Hopefully the speed is still adequate.




another "perspective" photo.  both sprockets are the same size, 8" in diameter and 48 tooth iirc.




There is no gearbox or anything complicated.  The final drive sprocket is connected to a 1 inch shaft that is supported by industrial grease-able bearings.  The shaft turns the 8 inch cog that drives the track.  

The red arrows point to the shiny metal drive cog which is connected directly to the drive sprocket inside the honey badger.  




The track has a little bit of slack in it that should provide enough shock absorption for the drivetrain.  The track is goodyear conveyor belt with "teeth" bolted on the inside that interface nicely with the drive cog.   It is a beautifully simple setup.


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## Lapeer20m (Feb 26, 2014)

Been too busy to work on the machine until today. 

I made great progress! The pumps are mounted, sprockets welded, and chains connected. 

I crudely mounted the engine/pumps so I could connect the hydro lines and take her out for a test drive.

I wouldn't call it a failure, but the test drive left a lot to be desired. The mounts for the hydraulic motors are simply too flimsy. They flex enough to allow the chains to slip and eventually pop off the sprockets.

I will reinforce the mounts and install idler sprockets for the chain.
She seemed to have plenty of power, but we will learn more after the motor mounts are fixed...


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## scooby074 (Feb 26, 2014)

A PasseParTout! Friggin sweet!

Interesting on the hydraulic conversion. I likely would have tried to find a used Skidoo clutch locally to sub in.

There are other similar rigs that are hyd powered, like Cushman Tracksters. The shop manual is available online for them if your curious and need some advise.


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## Lapeer20m (Mar 5, 2014)

Two steps forward one step back....

I reinforced the mounting brackets and created a makeshift idler sprocket and took her for a test drive. 

She drove awesome! Steering was exactly what I had hoped it would be. I could even turn one track forward while spinning the opposite track in reverse. 

Then the engine stopped abruptly. Something really bad happened. The engine will not turn, not even with a 3 foot cheater bar attached to the crank. 

I decided this was a great time to stop for lunch. 

I have a significantly smaller engine I can mount for now but not sure if I have the appropriate sized pulley. The two engines have different sized crankshafts of course. The new engine may not have enough hp. 

Time to start searching Craigslist. 

Grrr!

Here is a video of the old drivetrane.


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## ironpony (Mar 5, 2014)

Ouch, do you think it was coincidence? I do.  I think if it was a power issue it would of just stalled. Sounds like it was operating good until then, did the hydros seem to be straining at all?


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## Flatbedford (Mar 5, 2014)

Maybe there's some kind of binding between the hydro pump and the engine and not engine failure?


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## ironpony (Mar 5, 2014)

Flatbedford said:


> Maybe there's some kind of binding between the hydro pump and the engine and not engine failure?




good call might of blown up the  hydro pump


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## Lapeer20m (Mar 5, 2014)

SUCCESS!

she is far from finished, but I have proof of concept now.

The new temporary engine is from a push lawnower. It's a Briggs intek 6.5 hp. It runs wierd. I suspect that in its original configuration it uses the mower blade to supplement the lightweight flywheel.

It's slow and I'm walking behind the honey badger using the commercial mower controls. The speed controls have a severely limited range of motion with this setup. When I get the power pack remounted and new controls it should travel at leadt as fast as a riding lawn tractor.

Here is a video from tonight's test :


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## Lapeer20m (Mar 5, 2014)

Flatbedford said:


> Maybe there's some kind of binding between the hydro pump and the engine and not engine failure?



That is a good thought.  I removed the belt that drives the hydro pumps and was still unable to turn the engine over.  

Ill tear it down someday and determine what failed and if its worth fixing. I cannot turn it either direction so I'm guessing a piston stuck in the cylinder or the crank spun a bearing.  If it were a broken rod it would likely turn a few degrees one direction or the other.


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## salecker (Mar 6, 2014)

Check behind the flywheel
I picked up a 6.5 hp Honda at our dump a few yrs ago,it was in a New Honda box.I reached in a tried to turn it and it was seized.But i'm a hoarder so i grabbed it for parts i have one one a packer and water pump.Fast forward about 8 months i'm board in my shop and decide to look at the Honda sitting in the box.Turns out one of the bolts from the tank had fallen out and wedged between the flywheel and block.It must of fallen out after the motor stopped because it never did any damage.It now powers my splitter.


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