# Had to purchase a cord. Did I get shorted?



## Franknj229 (Jan 17, 2012)

Just bought my first house.  Big yard.  Lots of trees.  But nothing I can burn immediately and winter finally arrived in Northeast PA.  Just had a cord delivered and stacked it as soon as they left.  I think I only received 2/3rds of a cord, but I wanted to get some expert advice before I call them and potentially put my foot in my mouth.

Here's the details:

I built 2 wood racks.  Very basic 2x4 construction.  8'x4'x1'

The pile of wood they delivered filled both racks....barely.  Factoring in the width of the 2x4's, the actual height and length of each pile is 7'4"x3'9".

If each peice of wood was 2 feet long, that would be close enough to a full cord, but who burns 2 foot long fire wood?  Anyway, the pieces varied by alot!  The longest pieces were 20" long (less than 5% of the wood delivered) and the shortest pieces were between 6" and 9" (about 10-15% of the wood delivered).  The average length was about 16".

If I did the math correctly, I ended up with approximately 75 cubic feet of firewood.  Their website clearly states the dimensions of a cord of wood, so there is no debating whether they "meant" a half cord or face cord or anything like that.

Do I have a valid gripe here?  Any suggestions on how to proceed?

Thank you,

Frank


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## jdinspector (Jan 17, 2012)

Yes, you were shorted. Man up, call them and ask them to deliver the rest. If they argue, you could stop payment on the check, credit card, etc. However, I suspect that you paid cash (as I would too) and that was the preferred payment method by the dealer. If they won't deliver the rest, you're out part of what you paid. Not that big a deal- but you learned to either confirm the measurements ahead of time, measure when they deliver, or leave yourself some wiggle room if you get shorted again. You also learned not to deal with this guy again. 

Like I said, not that big a deal (how much are you out- $50?), but a good lesson in how to get the rules straight with future dealers.

This is why many of us don't purchase wood (also because we're frugal!) Since I started scrounging for myself, I haven't shorted me once!


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## eclecticcottage (Jan 17, 2012)

Sounds like you got shorted to me.  Should be 8' long 4' high and 4' deep.  I'd call them.

If they won't own up, see if you have a weights and measures office and report them.  Had to do this once years go for my father in law, turned out the guy was shorting a LOT of people and ended up in court over it-we got him $$ back.


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## clemsonfor (Jan 17, 2012)

Yep u got shorted. You basically got 2 face cords. Some folks think 2 face cords is a cord because of thier rounding. I would call and tell them your concern. Tell them the avg piece is 16" and your stack is only 8ft x 4ft by 36"  Your really close 3 arm fulls will get you there i bet, granted big arm loads that only a huge guy could hold but still.


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## HotCoals (Jan 17, 2012)

A cord is 4'x4'x8'
It takes three face cords(4'x8'x16") to equal a cord.
He took you.


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## seeyal8r (Jan 17, 2012)

3 of your racks full of 16" long wood would have been a full cord. Definitely shorted.


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## pen (Jan 17, 2012)

Here in NEPA, you received what is commonly called 2 face cords.  Unfortunately, you are about 1/3 of a cord short since around here, most consider 3 face to be a cord.  

In dealing with them, did you meet the people who delivered?  If not, then I'd play the nice card and call and ask if the person they sent out was a new person and they didn't know how to load the truck and made an accidental mistake, if there was confusion on what you had ordered, etc, etc.  If you met the owner, then just call up and perhaps play the confused card about what you read on their own site to be a cord versus what you received and ask how the error can be rectified.   

The quicker you call and ask the easier it will be.  If you wait in this weather, then you've lost.  If it's cold, I can burn a face cord (1/3 of a cord) in a week.  The last few days would be their argument.  Again, start off nice and sounding concerned that an honest mistake was made.  If that gets you nowhere, then steadily increase your use of the unhappy customer card..  

pen


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## Kevin* (Jan 17, 2012)

don't know about PA but here we have some laws(http://agr.wa.gov/Inspection/WeightsMeasures/FirewoodInformation.aspx), then again most people on CL are operating with a bussiness lic.


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## Franknj229 (Jan 17, 2012)

Thank you everyone.  You confirmed what I already suspected.  I'm going to call this morning.  I'll let you know how it turned out


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## firefighterjake (Jan 17, 2012)

Shorted . . . I must admit though I am also a bit curious as to the varying size wood . . . typically the wood I've seen that folks have purchased from a wood processor tend to be a lot more uniform in size . . . having wood ranging from 20 inches to 6 or 9 inches is a bit strange. I mean to say, I occasionally get some long ones and some chunks, but you don't hear of too many dealers who are bringing odd ball sizes to their customers like this.


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## Wood Duck (Jan 17, 2012)

Yes you got shorted, but the good news is you built your racks the perfect dimension to measure the amount of wood you got. As others have pointed out it would take three of your racks at 16 inches average length to make a full cord.


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## rkofler (Jan 17, 2012)

Funny, I am in the exact same situation this morning. Wood delivered this weekend, finished stacking yesterday. Measured to just under 90 cu. ft. Called him already this morning, now here is the quote of the day. He says to me, "And what's it supposed to be, 108?" I, of course, said no, 128!! He said he will deliver the 40 short today, we will see. Luckily I did pay credit card.


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## CTYank (Jan 17, 2012)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> Shorted . . . I must admit though I am also a bit curious as to the varying size wood . . . typically the wood I've seen that folks have purchased from a wood processor tend to be a lot more uniform in size . . . having wood ranging from 20 inches to 6 or 9 inches is a bit strange. I mean to say, I occasionally get some long ones and some chunks, but you don't hear of too many dealers who are bringing odd ball sizes to their customers like this.



Jake, you don't think that the wild mix of lengths could be to facilitate the seller's scam do you? A ploy to confuse the buyer, seems to me, or at least evidence of simple incompetence. Gotta wonder if there was any arrangement between buyer & seller regarding length.

As to comments about "no problem getting hosed for $50", that's why we have Weights & Measures people. You can get rich shorting buyers, and this was a big-time shorting. Way too common.


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## maple1 (Jan 17, 2012)

So how much are they charging for their 'cord'?


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## clemsonfor (Jan 17, 2012)

CTYank said:
			
		

> firefighterjake said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If i were gonna bet about the lengths i would guess the reason that there are such short pieces is that they are from huge trees that had to be cut short to move them better. Tree services do this to move them. If he is getting wood dropped off from a tree service whole or in short rounds or even if he is cutting them he may do this to better move them. Just my guess.

Not saying its right you would think that you would want more uniform pieces for your customers and you burn those yourself or you sell them at a discount.

It could actually be even shorter than that taken a 7" piece in a stack will take up the same verticle space as a 16" piece, and if not stacking short pieces side by side you will have a taller verticle height than you would with all 16" pieces.



And as to the other guy who was shorted your "dealer" is somewhat correct, and then so are you.  In forestry we are taught that a cord of wood is 4x4x8=128 right. But that is including the air as well, hes not delivering a solid cube of wood there will be air in there.  I cant remember the exact figures used as there obscure and based on wood size and region i beleive everyone uses different #'s but the amount of Actual wood in a cord is closer to the 108 he gave. I think it is taught to be 108 or 96cuft or somewhere in there.  But dont get me wrong you are right, wood sold is based on what will stack as tightly as possible in a 4x4x8 space or what ever other numbers make up 128cuft.  Thats how wood is purchased and sold. But technically weather rounds or split you will never actually get 128cuft of wood so we use a figure as just one of those play #'s somewhere around 108cuft. The reason this is brought up is that at least in the state of SC wood is bought and sold on the weight basis not cord or cuft, or bdft or anything else anymore. This conversion # is to allow to convert between cords and tons to get actual timber or # of trees that are out there. 

IE you cant take 30 tons and divide by 2.675 (tons per cord for southern pine) and find actual on the ground cords as you will over estimate when going to the cubic ft or the other way? My point is that if u use 128 cuft to a cord in your conversions you will overestimate product in the woods as that 128cuft SPACE only contianed some number short of 128 more like 108.

WOW that went way longer than i wanted or needed to be. But i think you got a synopsis of lesson 3 of forestry 101 there!


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## Lumber-Jack (Jan 17, 2012)

All this talk about cord dimensions and lengths of the wood, nobody mentioned whether the wood is dry enough to burn or not, that's usually the next problem to arise.
It would be a double let down for the OP if the wood dealer made good on the volume only to find out all the wood was cut and split only a week ago and not worth burning this year.

Oh the trials and tribulations of new wood burners.  :shut:


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## Stegman (Jan 17, 2012)

pen said:
			
		

> Here in NEPA, you received what is commonly called 2 face cords.  Unfortunately, you are about 1/3 of a cord short since around here, most consider 3 face to be a cord.
> 
> In dealing with them, did you meet the people who delivered?  If not, then I'd play the nice card and call and ask if the person they sent out was a new person and they didn't know how to load the truck and made an accidental mistake, if there was confusion on what you had ordered, etc, etc.  If you met the owner, then just call up and perhaps play the confused card about what you read on their own site to be a cord versus what you received and ask how the error can be rectified.
> 
> ...



I'm with Pen here. Give the guy the benefit of the doubt. If it becomes clear that he intentionally tried to bone you, then find a different dealer next year. 

I bought wood for the first time this year, and got lucky. The guy lives about a mile up the road. He delivered five cords over the course of four months, and it wasn't until it was all stacked [by me] that he expected to be paid. 

There's just no way to know how much wood you've gotten until it's stacked. Down the road you should look for that kind of arrangement, or short of that, pay the guy for half of what he says he delivered up front, and then settle up once you've got it all stacked. 

The wood I got also had some oddball sizes. I'd say 95 percent of it was 17-18 inches, but there were also pieces that were 12 or 14 inches. I don't think that's necessarily out of the ordinary [but should be accounted for if there's a lot of short pieces].


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## shoot-straight (Jan 17, 2012)

hi, im new here, but had exactly waht you are describing happen to me last year in MD.

my woodshed is made of 8x8x8 cells comprised of fence sections. when they delivered, i got out my moisture meter. they asked, "what is that?" i laughed, they were amazed. moisture was ok. they had told me on the phone that pieces are cut at 16". what a crock. some were 8 some were 24. i stacked it, and they were every bit of a 1/4 cord short. so yep, i called them....

his first response was NO WAY! that was a full cord! i told him to come out and measure it up. eventually, he relented and said he would bring me my due. his did, although it was 2 weeks later. 

2 ways firewood people will try to screw you.

1. varying the size of the pieces

2. splitting and adding in more small pieces. finely split wood takes up more room than that that is coarsely split. with some exceptions.


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## 48rob (Jan 17, 2012)

I'm new to the wood selling business, but since we started cutting and splitting a couple years ago I have always been concerned that I might be accused of not offering the full stated amount.
We sell face cords; 4' x 8' x 16"
In order to be darn sure anyone that buys from me gets what they paid for (I value my reputation, and keep my word) we stack the wood on racks that are 8' long and just over 4' high so the customer can see, and measure if they like before buying.
(We also state in our ad that the customer is welcome to bring a moisture meter and check a few fresh splits)

On that same note, perhaps since you have the correct sized racks, if you buy from a seller who promises a face cord (cut to an average of 16") if you pay a little extra to have him stack it, there will never be a "mistake".

Rob


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## Yankee (Jan 18, 2012)

Maine State regulations state if stacked, no holes larger than the smallest piece of wood.  There are also standards for loose loaded, so many cubic feet based on the length of wood, as most sellers load off a processor or conveyor.  Sellers are required to provide a sales slip that states the type of wood (mixed hardwood, or whatever) and how the sales volume was measured, stack or cubic foot.  If your dealer does not provide a slip (under the table sale) you may have little recourse with Weights and Measures.  Of course, Taxation may be interested.......


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## bluedogz (Jan 18, 2012)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> Shorted . . . I must admit though I am also a bit curious as to the varying size wood . . . typically the wood I've seen that folks have purchased from a wood processor tend to be a lot more uniform in size . . . having wood ranging from 20 inches to 6 or 9 inches is a bit strange. I mean to say, I occasionally get some long ones and some chunks, but you don't hear of too many dealers who are bringing odd ball sizes to their customers like this.



Goes to the problem... sounds like this isn't a "processor", but just some guy who cut up some wood.


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## Gator eye (Jan 18, 2012)

Maybe he buys a semi load of logs and processes them, the shorts are the small pieces that are always left when processing full length logs.


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## LIfirewoodreview (Jan 22, 2012)

Sounds like you got yourself a "Long Island cord."  On Long Island, there is a different definition for an "All hardwood, seasoned cord."  It's a cord that's short at least 25%, with 20% pine and cut down last week.  I personally wouldn't pay cash anymore, only check, and tell them it will be cancelled if the cord is found to be short after stacking and the shortage not delivered within 2 days.  If they deliver the shortage after the check is cancelled, they will be paid the original amount minus the check cancelling fee.  If they won't accept these terms, tell them to leave and take their wood with them.


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## JeffT (Jan 23, 2012)

48rob said:
			
		

> I'm new to the wood selling business, but since we started cutting and splitting a couple years ago I have always been concerned that I might be accused of not offering the full stated amount.
> We sell face cords; 4' x 8' x 16"
> In order to be darn sure anyone that buys from me gets what they paid for (I value my reputation, and keep my word) we stack the wood on racks that are 8' long and just over 4' high so the customer can see, and measure if they like before buying.
> (We also state in our ad that the customer is welcome to bring a moisture meter and check a few fresh splits)
> ...


That mite fly in Illinois but in Ohio the only legal amount is a cord.4x4x8.


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## HotCoals (Jan 23, 2012)

JeffT said:
			
		

> 48rob said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What..you can't legally sell a face cord?
You can in New York.


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## Wood Duck (Jan 23, 2012)

Just because the only legally defined measurement of firewood is a cord doesn't mean you can't sell 1/3 cord at a time. That still counts as selling by the cord.


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## JeffT (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm sure you can work out whatever deal you want to but there is no face or rick in the code here, just cord.I would think you could do the math and sell a 1/16 of a cord if you want to and all parties are happy.


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## mking7 (Jan 23, 2012)

I had to buy some wood last year and the one thing I learned VERY quickly was to ask what they were calling a 'cord'.  I found more ignorance than dishonesty in my conversations with sellers.  Many bragged about selling a "REAL CORD" but when asked they defined  it as 4'x16'x16"(log length)....When I told one guy that he'd have to give me 1.5 of those to make a full 'REAL CORD' he didn't agree and/or believe me when I told him....

Heck, I asked one seller on Craigslist and told them I had gotten several people that didn't know a cord was 4x4x8.  The reply I got in email said, "Oh, I don't know, I always thought a cord was a pickup load".


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## Franknj229 (Jan 23, 2012)

Sorry all.  I've been really busy but wanted to update you on my situation and comment on some of the posts since my last one.

First, in response to Maple1 and the guy who said basically, "oh well, you're out $50", they charged me $195 for the cord and $30 for delivery.  So, I actually paid an extra $70 or so for nothing (not to mention the $20 tip I gave the delivery guys).  Yes, $50 or $70 is not going to bankrupt me, but money is very tight and I don't see a reason to throw money away no matter how much you have.  The seller and I had an agreement and I expect to get what I paid for whether the difference is $10 or $1000.

Now, the seller's website clearly defines the size of a cord as 128 cubic feet AND states that it is "seasoned hardwood".  In response to Carbon_Liberator, no, the wood is not dry.  It is also not all good for fireplaces (found some pine pieces, etc.).  It may be seasoned in the sense of "the tree has been down for a year", but it was clearly not cut very long ago.

To CTYank, yes, I do believe the odd sizes were part of the scam, and yes, I do believe I was shorted intentionally.

To li_jotul550, the reason I believe I was intentionally shorted is because I got a similar response when I called back that you got.  I love that your dealer had the nerve to say "How much is it supposed to be? 108?"  What???  If he doesn't know how much wood is in a cord, how did he know how much to bring you in the first place???  The answer is, he knows EXACTLY how much wood is in a cord, which is how he knew to give you less than that amount.  I'll tell you what my dealer said below.

So, to Pen, I took your advice on how to approach the follow-up call once I realized I had been shorted.  No reason to get testy right off the bat, right?  I played dumb.  I said, "Thank you again for coming out yesterday.  I know it was a holiday and you were very busy.  I really appreciate it.  I'm concerned about the amount of wood though.  I think maybe your delivery guys didn't know exactly how much wood I ordered because I'm about a third of a cord short."

To that she replied, "well that's not right.  You ordered a cord and you should have gotten a cord.  Call me in a week or so and I'll send over the rest of your wood."

Pause for a second here.

I felt like that was the response of someone who already knew I didn't get what I paid for.  Maybe I'm wrong here, but I feel like the first question should have been, "How do you know you don't have a full cord?"  Then I could have explained about the sizes of the pieces and the sizes of my racks, etc.  But there was no questions asked.  Just immediate acceptance that what I was saying was true.

Anyway, I continued to play the "niceguy" card and said I would call in a week.  (This was on Tuesday)  I waited until Friday and said I would be available to accept delivery on Saturday.  She said she couldn't do it because they use their trucks for plowing and salting in the winter and we had a storm predicted this weekend.  I told her I would be off Monday as well and she said to call back Monday.

Well, today is Monday and I called this morning.  After a bit of reluctance, she said she would send someone out in a couple hours.  Five minutes later she called back and said the only available truck was in the shop.  She had another truck, but it couldn't back up (really?) so the wood would have to be dumped in front of my driveway and I would have to transfer it by wheelbarrow to the back of my property.

At that point she gave me one last option.  She hadn't charged my card yet (I paid by CC, by the way) and she would simply charge me a third less to compensate for the shortage.  I took that option.  What do I want with another face cord of unseasoned, funky sized wood anyway?

Now, in the interest of full disclosure, she seems like a genuinely sweet woman, and she didn't charge my card immediately, so maybe I'm overreacting.  Perhaps this has just become such common practice in the wood selling business that she doesn't feel she is doing anything wrong (a lie isn't a lie if you believe it), but I will certainly look elsewhere next time and be much more insistent about the details upfront.

Finally, to 48rob, paying to have it stacked is great advice.  If it comes up short, there is no argument.

Thanks again to everyone who chimed in on this topic.

-Frank


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