# E-Classic Update



## antos_ketcham (Oct 18, 2008)

Now that it has turned colder here in VT I thought I would post a quick update and see how other E-Classic owners are doing. 

The amount of visible smoke has nearly vanished with the colder weather and the increased heat load. I am now adding a few chunks of wood every other day rather than only twice a week. 

I still have my paper clip in for air when the solenoid is closed, but I suspect I can remove this anytime now that the unit is firing frequently. 

I learned from Warm in VT that his dealer recommended not loading the firebox higher than the firebrick. I have tried this and it does seem to improve the cleanliness of the burn. 

My main observation as far as smoke is concerned is that the drier the wood - the better this unit works. That is not really a revelation as this is true with all wood burning, but with this next gen. OWB it seems to be crucial to it performing as advertised. 

So that said, next summer I will build a woodshed over and around the boiler so I can keep my wood drier - if anyone has good photos of such an arrangement, I'd like to see them. 

If anyone has any questions - feel free to email. 

Pete


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## deerefanatic (Oct 18, 2008)

That's good to know... So the primary firebox on those has firebrick in it too?


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## logjammed (Oct 19, 2008)

So far in my little experience with the e-classic my burn procedures are starting the fire with very little pallet wood ,establishing a coal base , then loading with approx. 1/2 wheel barrow of small splits of maple,getting the unit up to temp 180f, then loading some larger splits of pine ,rounds and chunk. this procedure virtually elimanates the possibility of nuisance smoke. watching this unit under full burn with no smoke is pretty cool,but keeping that coal base seems critical. at times due to the size and possible re-loading times i have lost the coal base and it would smoke some ( not excessive ) , just shaking up the pile would clean stack up almost immediatly.   I have been performing this procedure daily for hot water (60 gallon superstore )and maintaining water in existing boiler for its transfer. oil burner has not come on in two weeks. heats been on three night so far , wife says its too hot , kids too  . I can't win 3 girls in the house. i am very happy so far the only problem i have come across was the temp. sensor readings would randomly fluctuate and i am monitering that.


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## jd6030 (Oct 19, 2008)

Got my E classic fired yesterday and very impressed with operation of it. Used dual fuel for first fire and that is worth the extra money to get a nice hot fire and start of a good coal bed it took 3 hours to get it to temparature. Now using wood mode only after first warm up and has been working good. Can't tell when it running or idleing during day and some smoke at night but vanishes 30 feet away from stack. It seems to smoke the most after loading with wood for around 10 mins then it starts to go away but this is with wood that isn't fully seasoned but definately dry enough to burn. The classic stove would be jeaulous.


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## flyingcow (Oct 20, 2008)

Just bumping this because I got  a neighbor that is about ready to install his. I'll print this off and give to him. Any more thoughts?.............


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## ecrane99 (Oct 21, 2008)

E-Classic notes from Ed in CT:

I have the wood only unit

1)  had the problem of fire going out.  Put a paper clip on the primary air disc and now the fire stays lit.
unit blows air until watertemp reaches 185,  then shuts down.  Blower turns on at 180.  this process continues.
If the water temp falls to 175,  the primary and secondary blowers turn on.  With the paperclip,  my fire never drops below 179 and burns nice now.

2) Noticed alot of black gooey creosote buildup on the firebox walls and ceiling. 

3) Bypass door sticks .  probably due to creosote.

4) found it important to use smaller logs and splits as they seem to keep the ash bed.
Ash bed is important on this furnace.  Without a good ashbed,  the unit will smoke.


5) I'm still getting the hang of it and I think when the temps cool down,  the unit will perform better and maybe less creosote.

6) I'm using 3 sections of chiminey. Draft is good. 

7) I have the furnace on heavy duty patio type blocks.  I was worried about the wieght but they held up well without any cracking.

8) The lights on the furnace are only good for the surounding area.  Inpecting or loading wood requires a flashlight if the system is in idle mode as the is no flam in the firebox.  I try to do my loading before sunset.

9) I'm building a shed / lean to next to the furnace.  It will keep me dry when loading and provide a place to hang my shovel,  gloves etc. 

10) Overall I am happy with it so far.


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## jklingel (Oct 21, 2008)

Dang! I sort of scratched the eClassic off my list, as I figured they would not burn as advertised. Good to hear they seem to be doing well. Pls keep us posted on the creosote, etc. Thanks. j


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## antos_ketcham (Oct 21, 2008)

Good Report ecrane. 

I would echo all of your observations. I think what is interesting is that despite the gooey creosote that can form in the firebox, the secondary chamber, the heat exchanger tubes, and the chimney are all clean. 

I pulled the turbulators from the Hx tubes expecting to find creosote and they were clean with the exception of the top 1/5th that had a dry fly ash on it. 

Pete




			
				ecrane99 said:
			
		

> E-Classic notes from Ed in CT:
> 
> I have the wood only unit
> 
> ...


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## jklingel (Oct 21, 2008)

Pete: How many winters/cords have you run this? (I don't know when these came on the market. Last yr?) I'd sure like to know if the creo problem magnifies/spreads over time. Sounds like a good machine, though. Thnx. j


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 21, 2008)

I think all downdraft gasifiers, (as opposed to the Seton/Greenwood design) get creosote formation in the primary combustion chamber. I know my EKO does. As Pete says, as long as it stays there, no problem.


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## antos_ketcham (Oct 21, 2008)

I just got it this summer. Haven't burned a cord yet. The creosote is worst after refueling and during the first day of burning. As the wood burns down in the firebox the creosote goes from gooey to dry and flaky and can be more easily scraped off. I had a Greenwood before this unit and the creosote was forming in a place I couldn't get at it or clean it. Here at least I can see what I am dealing with and manage it. 

Pete



			
				jklingel said:
			
		

> Pete: How many winters/cords have you run this? (I don't know when these came on the market. Last yr?) I'd sure like to know if the creo problem magnifies/spreads over time. Sounds like a good machine, though. Thnx. j


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## husker (Oct 22, 2008)

How much do these units go for?  I was thinking they quite pricey when they came out, similar to a Garn?


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## henfruit (Oct 22, 2008)

pete, what did you do with your greenwood?


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## antos_ketcham (Oct 22, 2008)

It is for sale.



			
				henfruit said:
			
		

> pete, what did you do with your greenwood?


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## antos_ketcham (Oct 22, 2008)

I locked in this spring at 8500.

Prices have gone up. 



			
				husker said:
			
		

> How much do these units go for?  I was thinking they quite pricey when they came out, similar to a Garn?


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## antos_ketcham (Oct 22, 2008)

I would add here that I think this issue of creosote in the Greenwood would go away if I had adequate storage. I didn't have room for storage in my basement and I was under orders to not construct any more outbuildings - so I went with the E-Classic as it has storage built in and is weatherproof. 

Pete




			
				Pete Antos-Ketcham said:
			
		

> I just got it this summer. Haven't burned a cord yet. The creosote is worst after refueling and during the first day of burning. As the wood burns down in the firebox the creosote goes from gooey to dry and flaky and can be more easily scraped off. I had a Greenwood before this unit and the creosote was forming in a place I couldn't get at it or clean it. Here at least I can see what I am dealing with and manage it.
> 
> Pete
> 
> ...


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## deerefanatic (Oct 22, 2008)

Man alive, I didn't know the E-Classic was so expensive.......... I was beginning to think that there was no hope for me bringing my stove to market if it works out due to the strict competition that's developing...... 8500 is WAYYY too hi for a non-pressurized setup like that..


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## logjammed (Oct 25, 2008)

did the 30 day run-in cleaning today clean entire firebox, inspect under firebrick where removable (some glued together with creosote),cleaned reaction chamber,turbulaters,stack,rechecked ph and nitrile levels. I did find one fairly significant problem, the bolts for the damper flap and cam lever above turbulaters were loose not a big deal at this point but would have been if i did not catch it. I don't know if the stickiness caused them to loosen, but you guys might want to check yours at the next service.


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## Jim K in PA (Oct 25, 2008)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> Man alive, I didn't know the E-Classic was so expensive.......... I was beginning to think that there was no hope for me bringing my stove to market if it works out due to the strict competition that's developing...... 8500 is WAYYY too hi for a non-pressurized setup like that..



Matt - the E-classic is a bargain compared to the GARN.  The GARN 1500 is over $12k, and the 2000 is over $15k.  Heck, a Mahoning 500 smoke dragon is about that same as an E-classic price-wise.

I'll be into my GARN for close to $20k when I am all done, but that is for a multi-building piping scheme and some outbuilding construction costs.


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## deerefanatic (Oct 27, 2008)

True, that is true..... And, after hearing on another thread what it cost the mfgr to get these stoves certified, I can see why they cost so much.


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## warm in VT (Oct 28, 2008)

Pete and I have had the same results so far.  i have found the same issues with mine as has been reported here.  I have burned about a half cord of wood and all is working beautifully.  My only concern at this point is the creosote build up.  It does not seem to be getting worse as it will flake and burn off once it gets to a cretian point.  I am concerned about any problems this will cause though in deteriorating the furnace quicker.  There is no way that goo is going to be scraped off.  Very sticky and nasty!  I have been using the Ashtrol as they recommend and hope that will help.  The factory advises once it gets "cold" the creosote issue will go away.  I dont believe that as it is cold here and it is firing and burning plenty hot but the firebox will never come up to temp to burn off that creosote because all the burning is going on in the reaction chamber.  I am very happy with its performance so far, little to no smoke except on start up which I have only had to light the one time!


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## Johnbull (Nov 13, 2008)

E-Classic Update

Have been burning my new E Classic for 1 month and have the following to report: I am very pleased with the furnace and the overall performance- wood usage is modest and not overly demanding. There are two issues that I would like to mention; the first is that the bypass mechanism did stick and due to my efforts of trying to move the handle I bent the metal bracket which holds the rod which connects to the bypass door. I shut the unit down and the local dealer promptly came and we bent the bracket back to a position where it did not bind the connecting rod.  

I read an e-mail from CB which stated they are aware of this problem and have changed their manufacturing process to address the problem. Further, there is a repair kit in the works which is being sent (at least in my situation) to my distributor for a retro-fit to prevent the rod from slipping out of the bracket. 

The second issue concerns the reasote build-up. There does appear to be more accumulation  than I was expecting although that may change with colder temps outside. I am burning only seasoned wood. I thought that the bypass door sticking was a creasote issue but I'm not so sure now that is the case. 

Plenty of hot water and minimal/acceptable levels of smoke- no complaints from my wife or children- or me for that matter.

Craig Ormsby
Martinsburg PA


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## jebatty (Nov 13, 2008)

Musing on the creosote issue: The high water volume of the jacket surrounding the firebox, especially when cold, may be the cause, as it may take a long time for the firebox surfaces to get up to heat. During this heatup process, creosote likely is condensing on the inside of the firebox. If this is true, then creosote formation should decrease when boiler is up to temp and maintained at operating temp. 

Burning only very well seasoned wood will reduce creosote, and at least on startup, burning smaller splits to have a very intense fire, and rapid heatup, may also help. 

Does the E-Classic have a Termovar-type valve to maintain boiler water temp? If not, and from time to time you are drawing down boiler temp much below 160, then I think you need a valve to protect the boiler from cold water return.

Other gasifier boilers also have some creosote formation in the firebox, but most of these heat only a small quantity of water around the firebox, the water heats up quickly, and minimal creosote formation or accumulation. For example, on my Tarm, only 54 gallons of water in the boiler, and the Termovar insures rapid water heating and maintance of operating temp water in the boiler, even if the system is cold. I'm in my second season of operation, and only a light creosote scale has formed in the firebox.


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## antos_ketcham (Nov 13, 2008)

Where does a termovar get installed in the system? At the boiler? In the basement? 

Thanks. 

Pete




			
				jebatty said:
			
		

> Musing on the creosote issue: The high water volume of the jacket surrounding the firebox, especially when cold, may be the cause, as it may take a long time for the firebox surfaces to get up to heat. During this heatup process, creosote likely is condensing on the inside of the firebox. If this is true, then creosote formation should decrease when boiler is up to temp and maintained at operating temp.
> 
> Burning only very well seasoned wood will reduce creosote, and at least on startup, burning smaller splits to have a very intense fire, and rapid heatup, may also help.
> 
> ...


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## jebatty (Nov 13, 2008)

The Termovar is a mechanical thermostatic mixing valve installed on the boiler supply line with a connection to system supply and a connection directly to boiler return. There are other similar mixing valve setups. On startup with a cold boiler, all hot water output from the boiler is returned directly to the boiler to allow rapid heating of the boiler supply water. As boiler supply water comes up to the thermostatic setting of the Termovar (available at different settings), the valve opens and allows hot water to enter the system supply. The design intent is to mix boiler output with return water such that return water to the boiler is not less than the setting on the valve, and if it is, then boiler output water is diverted directly to boiler return and not supplied to the system.

With a large water jacket around the boiler (the water storage system), I doubt you can achieve maximum benefit from such a valve, although it will provide some level of protection on startup and on refiring. In effect you have to reheat your entire storage up to boiler operating temp each time you fire the boiler. This is not an issue if the boiler is fired all the time, as storage should always be up to temp. But if storage temp is allowed to drop below operating temp, such as during mild periods, then this is an issue.

With my Tarm, as mentioned, the boiler only has to heat and maintain 54 gallons of water. I have a separate 1000 gal of hot water storage. So as soon as the 54 gallons is heated, the Termovar sends excess hot water to storage, and mixes return water with boiler output to maintain the 54 gallons at operating temp. 

During mild periods, I let the Tarm burnout, and I supply heat from the 1000 gal of storage. Storage may drop to 110 or even 100. On refiring, the Tarm comes up to 160 temp in about 20 minutes, allowing minimal creosote formation, and then cycles between about 180-190 while in full burn, with all excess hot water diverted to reheat the 1000 gal of storage up to whatever temp I desire, depending on my heat needs. So far this year, with outdoor temps now in the lo-20's at night and mid-30's daytime, I have been heating storage only up to about 140 and letting it cool down to 100 before firing the boiler, which I have to do about every 2nd to 3rd day for about an 8 hour burn.


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## jebatty (Nov 13, 2008)

Look at the sticky Simplest Pressurized Storage System Design at the top of this forum, and you will see by the wood boiler Input Protection Mixing Valve. This is the Termovar, in my case.


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## Eric Johnson (Nov 13, 2008)

Regarding creosote buildup: My firebox creosoted up fast when I first got the boiler going, but it hasn't gotten any thicker in more than a season of use. I'd say it's probably about 1/4 to 1/2-inch. In really cold weather, it seems to burn off to some extent, but it's just a fact of life with a gasifier, I guess. I'm intrigued by the observation that it seems to be growing in the E Classic. I bet it levels off at some point and you'll know what the baseline is. I agree that the larger water volume in a big boiler like the EC is probably the culprit.

On a related topic, I've never understood how you can torch off creosote growing in your chimney, but the stuff in the firebox seems immune to burning. I mean, you can put a torch to it and it won't stay lit. You'd think it would periodically burn off, but it doesn't. I bet it would gasify pretty well if it did. I have noticed that a good, strong burn following a long period of idling will produce white smoke out the stack of my boiler. My guess is that it's creosote in the hx tubes formed during idle, that's burning off when the boiler gets a good flame going. It goes away pretty quick, but I was confused at first. Since the gasification chamber was full of orange flame, I couldn't figure out where the smoke was coming from.


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## jebatty (Nov 13, 2008)

When I shut down my system late last spring, I followed Tarm's recommendation to scrape the firebox to remove as much creosote as possible, then seal up all air inlets to the boiler to prevent moisture infiltration. Moisture + creosote = acid. 

Some areas scraped down to bare metal, and I doubt any creosote was as much as 1/4" thick, except maybe in some corners. It does not come off easily, and you're right, you can't burn it off with a torch. I just scraped as much as I could and sealed up the boiler. 

When I first opened it this fall, it looked exactly like I left it last spring. No evidence of any corrosion, at least not visible.


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## rpote (Nov 20, 2008)

I have a E-Classic 2300 dual fuel unit. It's been operating for about 3 weeks now and the past two weeks continuously. Temperatures running in 20s and teens here in upstate NY at night so we're online for the winter. This week we hooked up the propane and are running with gas backup. Here are my observations so far:

1. This boiler is the cleanest in my small town of Ticonderoga. I looked at all the Woodmaster units around me (we have a dealer 10 miles away) and they all smoke. Mine smokes when on a cold start but we've been pretty pleased with stack conditions. I have 4 sections of stack on mine to meet my building permit requirements with a spark arrestor on top.

2. No problem with damper sticking but I've been burning small splits of dry wood. I did open back yesterday and tubulators have some flour dry fly ash but not bad buildup. Took about 1/4 of a 5 gal pail of ash from reaction chamber so far. Unit has some creasote buildup in the firebox but it scrapes off without problem. Seems to be lessening now with more frequent burns.

3. My unit is located over 200 feet from the heat exchanger with my oil boiler. So 400 feet of total PEX run. I have a #11 pump at the EC2300 but Central Boiler recommends upsizing to a #14. I think after conferring with brother Randy we'll put a #11 on the return at the house to increase flow. On talking with CB yesterday I related that my unit runs fine but it takes a long time to increase temperature in the radiator loop at the house. I have problems keeping the water in this loop up to 150-160 deg and it should be at 180. To get it there I increased the EC2300 setpoint to 195 but it trips on HI temp and doesn't reset until 165. Big problem - this causes the propane backup to fire to bring boiler back to 195 using excessive amounts of propane CB thinks putting larger pump (or two pumps in line) will increase flow thru heat ex and transfer more heat (I remember that from my heat and mass balance engineering class! - Q=UAdeltaT). This should increase temperature transfer to water loop and I can run EC2300 down at 190 to avoid HI limit trip. Also instructed to not leave gas backup online - only use when away from unit for period where it will run out of wood.

4. Even with slow heating so far, I haven't had any problem keeping house at 68. I fill firebox to top of firebrick once or twice per day. Takes a lot of wood each time but only two trips to carriage house to do it. I build small leanto wood shed next to unit and it does a great job of keeping wood dry. Storing about 4 cords under shed and ordering 2 more this week. Even if I burn 6-8 cords per year I save huge $$ over the 1800 gallons of fuel oil I used to burn. 3 year payback if oil prices head back over $3.50 and that includes lots of plumbing. I figure I have about $16K in mine total. My EC2300 cost $12,500. 


Ron
Ticondeoga, NY


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## kenkressin (Dec 23, 2008)

I paid $9300 for the eClassic wood-only this fall.  By the time it was installed with all accessories, hot water exchanger, etc, tax, ~$14000.

I would highly recommend a $50 Raytek MT6 infared thermometer if you are interfacing to a boiler.  It is a great tool for figuring out where the heat is going.  I put black tape on the copper runs and it appears accurate to a couple degrees F (the infared thermometers does not work well off of bare metals).  The infared readings on PEX is about 10 degrees F lower than inside temperature since the PEX has some insulating value.

My installer insisted on upgrading the pump to a #14 (32 gal/min ~20ft head) versus a #11 (21 gal/min ~10 ft head) even though I could measure and determine the wood boiler did not need more flow.  As it turns out, my propane boiler pump was not operating at all - the house was heating entirely by convection, which was actually quite effective.  BTW, the #14 pump consumes ~150W compared to ~75W for the #11.

I also put a watt-meter on my eClassic.  About 75W when idle (pump only running) and ~220W when burning (fan, plus pump).  The two lights add another ~75W if on.


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## rpote (Dec 24, 2008)

Ken - I installed the #11 pump on the 3/4 pipe outlet and will be moving to the 1 1/4 outlet in the spring. Reducing down to 3/4 thru the 1"pump could be part of the problem. I also put another #11 pump on the return line to increase circulation flow back to the boiler. The more I think about that, less I think it does anything since the boiler is not pressurized. I may end up with the larger pump on the boiler discharge to the house this spring because of the long PEX runs. 

Good idea on the back tape on the copper pipe. Infrared thermometer definitely has trouble with fresh copper. I do want to do a heat balance around the system to see if I am losing heat. I went with a simple design on the PEX piping  - running inside 4" sewer and drain PVC and cementing/taping joints. Then foamed ends. From checks I've done so far, only losing about 1 degree across system from boiler to house but want to take another look. It takes a lot of wood to justify $2600 in thermopex installation.....


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## kenkressin (Dec 24, 2008)

I gave in and bought the Thermopex, but I also put 2" rigid pink foam around it.  I think you can measure the performance of your homemade Thermopex (by the equation at the end).  I will try to measure mine sometime.

It seems hard to measure delta temps when they become so small.  But considering 20 gallons a minute, if the temperature drops just 1 degree F in the thermopex run, thats (according to my calculations) 1F*20gal/min*8lbs/gal*60min/hr*BTU/(lb*F)= 9600BTU/hr loss, or 2800Watts.  Or simpler - for 450 gallons of water, that's 1F ever 22 minutes.

Of course, the 1F depends on length, R-value, etc.  Central boiler provides scant specifications on their Thermopex...I think someone should model it or pressure CB to specify it.  I think placing PEX in 2" foam would even be better than Thermopex.  They also spec it to 180 degrees, but my installer dialed my system to 190 degrees, where after it soon over-shot to 193.  I dialed it back to 188 and will dial it back more when weather warms or I get a working pump on my propane boiler.

I understand one can measure the R-value of anything using an infared thermometer, R = 0.67(TSurface - Water)/(TAir-TSurface).  For example, on Thermopex, if the air temp was 10F, the water 180F, and the surface was 25F, then 
R = 0.67(25-180)/(10-25) = 7.  Same equation works for measuring house walls.  The 0.67 assumes calm air around the surface.


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## kenkressin (Feb 27, 2009)

Here is an update after 3 months with an eClassic.
1) Plenty of creosote even though my wood is dry.  I agree this is just a characteristic of this gasifier design.  I have performed two thorough cleanings which took me about an hour each.  A bit of work getting the hardened creosote off the back and front edges and crevases.  I sprinkled Ashtroll into these area and scraped it in.
2) Operating fine, seems efficient.  I do notice some smoke smell briefly upon restart and stop, but nice burns in between.  I do clean the ashbox every 3 days or so.  I typically try to: 1) Let the fire burn down, 2) remove the ash, 3) stir the coals so much of the ash and coals fall into the reaction chamber, 4) spread the coals and ash so they do not plug the hole, 5) replace the reaction chamber cover, 6) add wood.
3) I clean the exchange baffles about every 2 weeks.  The brush has gotten stuck after plunging through, so now I only do it with the reaction door open incase I need to free it.
4) I had two bricks in the reaction chamber come loose. They overhang the brick on the bottom and it is possible my shovel accidentally pried them loose.  They are just balanced there now.  A single dab of some adhesive was on their back.
5) All the side bricks in the burn box have begun to buldge.  I eventually took the worst 4 out and there was about 1/2 of creosote that had formed behind them.  Once the creosote was exposed to the more intense heat, it turned liquid and started flowing away.  I was then able to clean out the areas easily and insert the brick fully back in.  I think that perhaps with a full box, the pressure on the brick may force the creosote out and limit this - not sure.  I was burning less than half full for some time.
6) I installed a $47 battery temperature sensor and alarm (Sper Scientific) in my house.  I taped the sensor to the source line which reads 130 degrees +/- 3 degrees (the line is actually about 185 degrees).  I set the alarm for 125 degrees.  Thus, if the fire goes low or the power fails, the alarm goes off quite quickly.  This has been a big help in monitoring the system.  I had started by taping it the return line, but the temperature there fluctuates too much. Also, one time the fire was low and the propane boiler was actually heating the eClassic, and the alarm did not sound because my propane boiler was keeping things warm enough.
7) I would have probably changed the orientation of the boiler - the front is no longer looking pretty.  The area above and near the door is black from flames crawling out when being loaded.  The light dome on the front is covered black.  Cleaning only does so much.  Orientating the door towards prevailing wind might limit smoke in the face.
8) I never use the lights.  I wear an LED headlamp which I find indespensible for our short winter days.
9) Opening the door at the wrong times is a disaster (smoke, cough, cough).  The best time to open is about 10 minutes after a relight.  I sometimes boost the temperature setpoint temporarily to start the fire and come back in 10 minutes.  The worst time appears about 10 minutes after the burns stops.  I always change into my "special coat" for loading.  It is a developing skill...
10) Letting a hot fire burn near the back of the firebox with the damper open cleans the stack well.  I have had the stack top glowing and creosote embers falling out of the stack - not sure if this is good technique, seems to work.
11) The damper door sticks - sometimes worse than others.  
12) I have a small hoe that I can scrape creosote from the ceiling with even when burning.  Not sure if this is just a waste of time.  The majority seems to drip back on the fire.
13) Had a leak in the brass flange above the pump.  Water wrecked the pump.  My installed alarm sounded which might have saved me from a frozen system.  The plumber was not aware this flange had a threaded peice which was not completely tightened.
14) The connection to my propane boiler has been very interesting, but that is another story.


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## rpote (Feb 27, 2009)

I had the same problem with one of the bricks next to the reaction chamber opening falling down and mine cracked in two. Funny thing they don't fit back together but I can jam them in so they don't fall again. I knock them out every time I clean out the ashes. Bottom of two of the tubulators has burned away. I don't know if this is a warranty item but should be. 

CB has recommended we remove all firebrick from firebox above the air hole openings. One of the dealers told me he thought the engineers just put them in to look nice... Mine buldged like yours and I had a few cracked. Good to konw I don't have to replace them. I had lots of cresote behind mine. Some were tough to get out when I removed them but the boiler seems to do ok without them. 

I will probably go with Thermopex this spring when I dig up the line. My cheaper method caused snow melt for about the first 80' of my 180' pipe run underground from the boiler. The wood guy got his truck stuck in the ditch and it was all soft. Ground around it frozen. Cold winter here in upstate NY. It probably costs me an extra 3-4 fills per week and about 2 extra cords or so a year to lose this heat. Your heat calculation confirms it for me. When I get it up to temp, I can literally watch the temperature of the boiler drop 1 degree every two minutes sometimes when cold (and the heat system in the house isn't calling for heat). I know I am losing heat, question is, can I justify the 12.25 per foot for Thermopex...


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## sorethumbs (Feb 27, 2009)

LakeGeorge said:
			
		

> I will probably go with Thermopex this spring when I dig up the line. My cheaper method caused snow melt for about the first 80' of my 180' pipe run underground from the boiler. ...



Can you tell us about how you made your underground pipe, and what you think went wrong?


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## rpote (Feb 27, 2009)

I ran 1" PEX inside 4" drain PVC and sealed each end with some foam and glued/taped joints. I did not use additional insulation around the pipe but I did bury it about 4' deep.


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## Floydian (Feb 27, 2009)

LakeGeorge,
I'm sure it will be worth your while to upgrade your underground lines. I would really research the option of closed-cell polyurethane spray foam. Jim K in PA has photos of installing his this way. Also, Heaterman has lots knowledge with this method.
If your seeing 1* drop every two minutes that would equal 112k btu/hr (450 gallons x 8.33 #=3748.5 btu/degree). Times that by 24 hours=2.68 million btu/day.
Heaterman also makes some really good points regarding tubing size for underground lines. Depending on your heat load, if you tear out your lines you might look into 1.25" pex. 
I have no practical experience in this area but from my research on this site these things could really increase your systems performance. 

Best of luck,
Noah


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## rpote (Mar 1, 2009)

Floydian,

Do you have contact info for Jim K in PA? I'd like to follow up with him on pipe install. 

Thanks,


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## Floydian (Mar 2, 2009)

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/member/7628/

Here is his public hearth info. (If its uncool to post a link to a member I apologize Jim)

You might send him a private message with any questions. Also, his website has nice documentation of his install.

Noah


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## rpote (Mar 4, 2009)

Noah,

Thanks. All set Jim was really helpful. Still debating whether to foam in the ditch or just go ahead with ThermoPEX.


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