# Lopi Leyden advice



## Rogersj (Oct 7, 2016)

I am looking for advice from others that know more than I do, I have a lopi Leyden bought in 2008 that needs the combustor replaced the cost for the combustor is $400.

1- is it worth spending this much money to repair stove?
2 - should I buy a new Englander nc30 for $900 instead of spending $400 on Leyden?
3 - can I safely use Leyden with combustor removed and just lose efficiency?


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## begreen (Oct 7, 2016)

1) debatable
2) maybe or an Englander 15-SSW02
3) not really


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## defiant3 (Oct 8, 2016)

Consider that this isn't the last catalytic combustor you'll ever but for this stove.  In some years (3? 5? maybe 7?) you'll likely be spending this money all over again, not to mention other associated parts is may need.  There's a bypass, refractory, etc.  In other words, if you were to buy an Englander now, which DOESN'T have all that related maintenance, how long would it be before you would have  spent that money anyway?

Catalytic technology is old school now. We should all just move along. Me, I can't wait till we have digital stoves!


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## Woody Stover (Oct 8, 2016)

defiant3 said:


> Consider that this isn't the last catalytic combustor you'll ever but for this stove.  In some years (3? 5? maybe 7?) you'll likely be spending this money all over again, not to mention other associated parts is may need.


Well, it's not a catalytic stove. It's a downdraft stove, so he is talking about replacing the refractory assembly. I get your point about spending money on the stove, but I'm not sure *how* often you have to replace the refractory on a Leyden...might last a good many years. Maybe a couple other owners will chime in.


> Catalytic technology is old school now. We should all just move along. Me, I can't wait till we have digital stoves!


Not really pertinent to this thread, but for the clean burn, long burn times, less wood needed (cut, split, stacked,) I like my cat stoves. $125 for a Woodstock combustor, spread over several years, is well worth it to me. I think the end of the cat is a long way off.
As far as your digital stove, how much will the chip cost to replace when it fries from the heat? At what point in the stove's life does it become hard to find that part anymore? And it might be a long shot but in case of a CME or EMP attack, not only will all other means of human survival be wiped out, your stove won't work either!


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## begreen (Oct 8, 2016)

The Leyden and the Avalon Arbor equivalent don't have the best track record. Issues with them are similar to those of the VC downdrafts and the Harman Oakwood. With decent draft it can heat well though it tends to burn hot in the rear of the stove and there were issues with keeping the bypass closed on some stoves.


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## webby3650 (Oct 8, 2016)

Woody Stover said:


> Well, it's not a catalytic stove. It's a downdraft stove, so he is talking about replacing the refractory assembly. I get your point about spending money on the stove, but I'm not sure *how* often you have to replace the refractory on a Leyden...might last a good many years. Maybe a couple other owners will chime in.
> Not really pertinent to this thread, but for the clean burn, long burn times, less wood needed (cut, split, stacked,) I like my cat stoves. $125 for a Woodstock combustor, spread over several years, is well worth it to me. I think the end of the cat is a long way off.
> As far as your digital stove, how much will the chip cost to replace when it fries from the heat? At what point in the stove's life does it become hard to find that part anymore? And it might be a long shot but in case of a CME or EMP attack, not only will all other means of human survival be wiped out, your stove won't work either!


Cat stoves are the way of the future. There will be cat stoves, hybrid, and straight non-cats with very little or possibly no air control at all.


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## webby3650 (Oct 8, 2016)

I would fix it, then put it on Craigslist. You could recover some of your money that way. This stove is plagued with problems and parts failures.


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## chance04 (Oct 8, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> Cat stoves are the way of the future. There will be cat stoves, hybrid, and straight non-cats with very little or possibly no air control at all.


Interesting,  can you elaborate on firebox control with no air control? 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## webby3650 (Oct 8, 2016)

A few low end stoves and "high efficiency" fireplaces can meet the EPA requirements by .only allowing a factory set amount of air into the stove. There literally is no air control for the user to adjust. This makes testing far cheaper by not allowing any adjustment. Not to mention the fact that these stoves would not pass testing if their was an air control, this too saves on engineering.


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## chance04 (Oct 8, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> A few low end stoves and "high efficiency" fireplaces can meet the EPA requirements by .only allowing a factory set amount of air into the stove. There literally is no air control for the user to adjust. This makes testing far cheaper by not allowing any adjustment. Not to mention the fact that these stoves would not pass testing if their was an air control, this too saves on engineering.


I understand this might save a bunch of money for manufacturers.  I was curious as to possible "advancements" to further assist wood burners in efficiency or extended burns. Automated so to speak. Taking something like the "alien tech" from BK and developing it farther. Just curious is all. 

Thanks
Tony

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## webby3650 (Oct 8, 2016)

chance04 said:


> I understand this might save a bunch of money for manufacturers.  I was curious as to possible "advancements" to further assist wood burners in efficiency or extended burns. Automated so to speak. Taking something like the "alien tech" from BK and developing it farther. Just curious is all.
> 
> Thanks
> Tony
> ...


There will be further developments from bigger companies no doubt. The trend will steer toward cat stoves though. That's why you see the new hybrid designs, it takes a catalyst to get the higher efficiencies across the board. Non-cat secondary combustion tube stoves will struggle to comply with the stringent EPA guidelines.


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## drz1050 (Oct 8, 2016)

I see why a company would do it for testing purposes, but why would any consumer ever buy a heater that you can't adjust? It'll either heat you out of the house, or not provide enough to be worthwhile 99% of the time. Sounds lovely, sign me up!


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## webby3650 (Oct 8, 2016)

drz1050 said:


> I see why a company would do it for testing purposes, but why would any consumer ever buy a heater that you can't adjust? It'll either heat you out of the house, or not provide enough to be worthwhile 99% of the time. Sounds lovely, sign me up!


It's cheap!


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## rScotty (Oct 16, 2016)

Rogersj said:


> I am looking for advice from others that know more than I do, I have a lopi Leyden bought in 2008 that needs the combustor replaced the cost for the combustor is $400.



Hello - I'm always glad to hear about other Lopi Leydens. We also have one that I bought about the same time. At the time I bought it, I was in the lucky position of being able to buy the stove of my dreams for a brand new house. After looking at lots and lots of stoves, the Lopi line seemed to be designed with more insight about wood stoves and to a higher material standard than the other stoves I saw back in 2006/2007. The closest competitor seemed to be the VC, but they were under new ownership and nobody seemed to be quite sure what that meant.

I bought the Lopi, my buddy bought a catalytic VC for his similar new-built house nearby. We both llive rurally in the Rocky Mountains and have a lot of previous experience with wood stoves. Stoves are a constant source of conversation. We've compared the Lopi and the VC for a decade now. And both of us are now considering getting new stoves! So far we haven't seen anything to make us want to run out and buy a particular newer model - which is kind of disappointing.

So what happened to the combustor on yours?  I've never really looked at mine other than to vacuum around it every few years. 
   rScotty


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## rScotty (Oct 16, 2016)

begreen said:


> The Leyden and the Avalon Arbor equivalent don't have the best track record. Issues with them are similar to those of the VC downdrafts and the Harman Oakwood. With decent draft it can heat well though it tends to burn hot in the rear of the stove and there were issues with keeping the bypass closed on some stoves.



I don't think the Leyden is the perfect stove. But lets be fair. The extra shielding that comes stock on the Leyden and Arbor is there to allow it to be installed closer to a wall. I've not noticed it burning hotter at the rear than any other stove I've measured. There are no unusual hot spots. 

Just as you say, the bypass handle did have a problem staying closed on Leydens. On mine, too.  But right about the time I began to notice the problem, a kit showed up from the factory which contained parts to fix the problem that I hadn't even told them about. The fix was simple, clever, and easy to install. 100% fix, and also allowed the bypass to be set (and to stay set) in an infinite range of positions. Very handy. 

But I agree these old Leydens did have their real downsides. I'd be glad to discuss those too. I'm finding that some can be fixed. Maybe we will all discover something.
     enjoy!  
        rScotty


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## webby3650 (Oct 16, 2016)

I love discussing Leydens as well. I get to work on them... so I've seen all the failures. I've had 2 different ones in my house and both had different results. After spending lots of time trying to diagnose the run away fire conditions that were all to common we found the problem. Lopi sent all 12 of the revisions over the years and nothing helped. Turns out the ash pan was different on the earlier model. It prevented the Ashpan door from sealing at the top. Lopi revised the ash pan and never notified their dealers. In fact they acted like they knew nothing about it. I had both ashpans side by side and the earlier model was designed differently. Lopi wouldn't even provide a new ashpan... We had to purchase a new one!


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## rScotty (Oct 16, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> I love discussing Leydens as well. I get to work on them... so I've seen all the failures. I've had 2 different ones in my house and both had different results. After spending lots of time trying to diagnose the run away fire conditions that were all to common we found the problem. Lopi sent all 12 of the revisions over the years and nothing helped. Turns out the ash pan was different on the earlier model. It prevented the Ashpan door from sealing at the top. Lopi revised the ash pan and never notified their dealers. In fact they acted like they knew nothing about it. I had both ashpans side by side and the earlier model was designed differently. Lopi wouldn't even provide a new ashpan... We had to purchase a new one!



I see that you have an Isle Royale. That stove was also on my short list; in fact after the VC was eliminated the final choice came down to either the Isle Royale or the Leyden. I can't remember why I chose as I did. Perhaps that was a mistake, as I see that the Royale is still made and sold. How would you compare them? 

I haven't personally seen the run-away fire conditions you speak of - but then we pay close attention to the burn. And since we get all the heat needed from a small fire at the very lowest settings then I rarely turn it up after the initial warm up. Of course burning as we do does lead to more creosote in the Dura-vent chimney and that is our currentproblem.

The ash pan on mine seals perfectly although it does require being vacuumed out behind it once a year. The Leyden benefits from frequent cleaning.

Although we've owned at least a dozen stoves, I haven't done much work on other people's stoves. My road to stove knowledge is a lifetime of use plus 30 years as a welder & machinist followed then by 20 years as an engineer designing things for better gases and liquid flow. I do not have specific knowledge of many of today's stoves - but am in the process of studying up.
 thanks for the reply,
   rScotty


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## webby3650 (Oct 16, 2016)

rScotty said:


> I see that you have an Isle Royale. That stove was also on my short list; in fact after the VC was eliminated the final choice came down to either the Isle Royale or the Leyden. I can't remember why I chose as I did. Perhaps that was a mistake, as I see that the Royale is still made and sold. How would you compare them?
> 
> I haven't personally seen the run-away fire conditions you speak of - but then we pay close attention to the burn. And since we get all the heat needed from a small fire at the very lowest settings then I rarely turn it up after the initial warm up. Of course burning as we do does lead to more creosote in the Dura-vent chimney and that is our currentproblem.
> 
> ...


Have you removed the refractory fire back and vacuumed out the combustion chamber?


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## branchburner (Oct 16, 2016)

rScotty said:


> I've not noticed it burning hotter at the rear than any other stove I've measured. There are no unusual hot spots.



Of course the Leyden is different from the Oakwood, but has the same basic rear-combustion technology, and I've noticed temps occasionally considerably higher on unshielded portions in the rear of the stove. We're talking over 800f while the stovetop was only in the 600f range, measured with an IR gun. After all, the secondary combustion is taking place in that section, so it would make sense that the rear often runs much hotter than in other stoves I've had (both cat hybrids and burn tubes).

Plenty of people have had very good and problem-free results with these stoves, no doubt, but the fact remains that nearly ALL cast-iron models of these rear-chamber stoves (whether Lopi, Harman or VC) have had at least a few reports of "going nuclear" where the rear of the stove glows (or comes close to glowing) along with reports of damaged/degraded combustors over time.


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## webby3650 (Oct 16, 2016)

branchburner said:


> Of course the Leyden is different from the Oakwood, but has the same basic rear-combustion technology, and I've noticed temps occasionally considerably higher on unshielded portions in the rear of the stove. We're talking over 800f while the stovetop was only in the 600f range, measured with an IR gun. After all, the secondary combustion is taking place in that section, so it would make sense that the rear often runs much hotter than in other stoves I've had (both cat hybrids and burn tubes).
> 
> Plenty of people have had very good and problem-free results with these stoves, no doubt, but the fact remains that nearly ALL cast-iron models of these rear-chamber stoves (whether Lopi, Harman or VC) have had at least a few reports of "going nuclear" where the rear of the stove glows (or comes close to glowing) along with reports of damaged/degraded combustors over time.


My Leyden went nuclear once. The entire back of the stove was glowing orange including the flue collar. I put a left over piece of metal roofing behind the stove to shield the wall, if I wasn't home it could have been a disaster! The primary air was shut off, and almost no flames in the box, it was an all secondary nuclear event.. I'm just glad the cheap Chinese castings held up to the heat.


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## Woody Stover (Oct 16, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> The entire back of the stove was glowing orange including the flue collar. The primary air was shut off, and almost no flames in the box, it was an all secondary nuclear event.


 


> I'm just glad the cheap* Chinese castings* held up to the heat.


At least they survived. I imagine there are varying quality levels that come out of China...I don't know.


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## webby3650 (Oct 16, 2016)

Woody Stover said:


> At least they survived. I imagine there are varying quality levels that come out of China...I don't know.


Maybe. The Lopi Cape Cod was cast in china as well. Mine cracked after only a few months.


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## begreen (Oct 16, 2016)

Didn't Travis switch to a European foundry a year or two ago?


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## webby3650 (Oct 16, 2016)

begreen said:


> Didn't Travis switch to a European foundry a year or two ago?


Yes. Morso is doing their castings would be my guess.

It's always funny to me how the reps would never mention where the iron was cast, they were never sure. But once it's in Europe they want to talk about it and are willing to say it was the lowest bidder in China...


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## rScotty (Oct 16, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> Have you removed the refractory fire back and vacuumed out the combustion chamber?



No, I've never done it that way. I vacuum through the holes in the combustion brick to get to the combustor. Then I remove the top flue and vacuum from the top to get around the sides. Both just like it says in the owner's manual. Seems easier than removing the refractory bricks. I like to leave all refractory parts in place so that a coating of insulating ash helps seal the seams. Anyway, my vacuuming method seems to work in that when we're done, there's a lot of ash in the vacuum bag. 

But I will say that this vacuuming the brick doesn't seem to make any difference in how it operates. Not like vacuuming the ash pan and ash drawer gaskets surfaces so that the ash drawer has room for the door to fit and the gasket surfaces are air tite. 
Like any stove with an ash collection area beneath the fire, it's critical that the ash drawer be air tight. 

What about the Isle Royale? I'm curious about that stove. How does it's operation differ?
  tnx,  rScotty


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## webby3650 (Oct 16, 2016)

rScotty said:


> No, I've never done it that way. I vacuum through the holes in the combustion brick to get to the combustor. Then I remove the top flue and vacuum from the top to get around the sides. Both just like it says in the owner's manual. Seems easier than removing the refractory bricks. I like to leave all refractory parts in place so that a coating of insulating ash helps seal the seams. Anyway, my vacuuming method seems to work in that when we're done, there's a lot of ash in the vacuum bag.
> 
> But I will say that this vacuuming the brick doesn't seem to make any difference in how it operates. Not like vacuuming the ash pan and ash drawer gaskets surfaces so that the ash drawer has room for the door to fit and the gasket surfaces are air tite.
> Like any stove with an ash collection area beneath the fire, it's critical that the ash drawer be air tight.
> ...


It requires no baby sitting. Just loves to burn! 
I don't mean to beat up on ya about the Leyden. I've had a dozen stoves or so, and work on most every stove on the market. Rear combustion stoves are by far my least favorite. Ive lost almost all faith in Lopi over the Leyden and then the cape cod. I've only had the quad for a few months, so far it's impressive. I assure you I'll be sure to post up my results!


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## rScotty (Oct 16, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> It requires no baby sitting. Just loves to burn!
> I don't mean to beat up on ya about the Leyden. I've had a dozen stoves or so, and work on most every stove on the market. Rear combustion stoves are by far my least favorite. Ive lost almost all faith in Lopi over the Leyden and then the cape cod. I've only had the quad for a few months, so far it's impressive. I assure you I'll be sure to post up my results!



Shucks webby, it doesn't bother me to beat up on the Leyden. After all, how else will we improve it? I'm right with you. Please know that I don't have any personal stake here. I only own the stove; I had nothing to do with the design or the manufacture.
My suggestion is that we just try to figure out what it is capable of doing, where the problems are,  and then work to make it better for what it is.

It seems to me that everyone who take the time to relate to a wood stove in the first place is probably a bit of a handyman and a problem solver. That makes wood stove people my kind of folks.

The Leyden obviously needs help with the sealing and the primary air flow - but that's fairly obvious to any owner after running it for a season. By the second season I had also proven to my satisfaction that it would not burn consistently in the fully damped position. It would either run way too hot or more likely would keep going out. So for the past few seasons we have run it with the damper locked at about 10% open. That's a shame, but no way to fix that that I'm aware of with this stove.

And like you say, I don't like secondary combustion taking place low down in the rear in any stove. Nor do I like the hot secondary combustion taking place right at the flue outlet like it does on so many of today's catalytics. I'd prefer secondary combustion to take place as a stratified layer within the upper part of the primary combustion box. That way I can keep an eye on it happening, too. With a bit of care and at 90% damped it's possible to get the Leyden to burn that way for awhile. Sometimes for several hours. But it's touchy.

The Leyden has it's good points. Nice aesthetics. And it does seem to be made of high quality cast iron nice thick extra metal in the stress areas and on gasketing surfaces. Good enamaling. I'm actually surprised at how strong and well cast that it is. So overall, it does seems to be well made. But maybe this one is the exception. What have you heard of the Leyden's structural strength? What about Cracking? Warping? Burn through?
In all those respects the Leyden seem better than many of those old made in USA cast iron stoves from previous generations.
Lets keep after it,
rScotty


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## webby3650 (Oct 16, 2016)

rScotty said:


> Shucks webby, it doesn't bother me to beat up on the Leyden. After all, how else will we improve it? I'm right with you. Please know that I don't have any personal stake here. I only own the stove; I had nothing to do with the design or the manufacture.
> My suggestion is that we just try to figure out what it is capable of doing, where the problems are,  and then work to make it better for what it is.
> 
> It seems to me that everyone who take the time to relate to a wood stove in the first place is probably a bit of a handyman and a problem solver. That makes wood stove people my kind of folks.
> ...


I've seen warped tops, cracked platforms, warped top loading lids, failed combustion boxes, failed refractory, unexplainable backpuffing, run away fires. I'm sure there something I'm forgetting.  To be honest I can't think of any good old iron stoves made in the USA. VC would be it, it was never good in my opinion...


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## branchburner (Oct 16, 2016)

rScotty said:


> What about the Isle Royale? I'm curious about that stove. How does it's operation differ?



The secondary combustion takes place in the firebox (with burn tube technology) rather than in a separate rear combustion chamber (downdraft technology).


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## rScotty (Oct 16, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> I've seen warped tops, cracked platforms, warped top loading lids, failed combustion boxes, failed refractory, unexplainable backpuffing, run away fires. I'm sure there something I'm forgetting.  To be honest I can't think of any good old iron stoves made in the USA. VC would be it, it was never good in my opinion...



That's my feeling too. The VC would be it, but I'm not a fan of cast iron stoves - having owned quite a few of them. Just off the top of my head: 2 Jotuls, 2 Vermont Castings, Live Oak, Majestic, Home Comfort, Lopi Leyden. 
My dream stove might well have a cast iron outer with an enamel coat - but only if that cast iron outer skin surrounded a completely welded steel inner firebox. 
The VC always interests me. Vermont Castins have a simple effective thermostat that can be used either to control the burn or as a hi heat safety switch. I like that it works by restricting intake air & not damping. VCs are top loading too. 
The older I get, the more I value top loading....
In fact, the only thing I don't like about the VC is the cast construction. 
 rScotty


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## Woody Stover (Oct 16, 2016)

rScotty said:


> My dream stove might well have a cast iron outer with an enamel coat - but only if that cast iron outer skin surrounded a completely welded steel inner firebox...The older I get, the more I value top loading.


Sounds like a PE Alderlea...and a Jotul Rangeley has top loading.


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## webby3650 (Oct 17, 2016)

Woody Stover said:


> Sounds like a PE Alderlea...and a Jotul Rangeley has top loading.


Blaze King Ashford too.

The top loading feature of the rangeley is nearly useless, with the door open you only have access to a very small part of the firebox. To fill it up you'd need to open both top doors, yes, inner and outer loading doors, drop in a few pieces of wood, then open the front door to push the wood back so you can add more wood. The quad is much better but still has very limited access to the deep firebox. It's good for dropping in a piece or two throughout the day. For overnight burns you have to load from the front.


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## webby3650 (Oct 17, 2016)

rScotty said:


> That's my feeling too. The VC would be it, but I'm not a fan of cast iron stoves - having owned quite a few of them. Just off the top of my head: 2 Jotuls, 2 Vermont Castings, Live Oak, Majestic, Home Comfort, Lopi Leyden.
> My dream stove might well have a cast iron outer with an enamel coat - but only if that cast iron outer skin surrounded a completely welded steel inner firebox.
> The VC always interests me. Vermont Castins have a simple effective thermostat that can be used either to control the burn or as a hi heat safety switch. I like that it works by restricting intake air & not damping. VCs are top loading too.
> The older I get, the more I value top loading....
> ...


The Blaze King Ashford has a welded firebox, cast iron jacket and a thermostatic air control. Other than the top load, this sounds like your next stove!


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## Woody Stover (Oct 17, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> The top loading feature of the rangeley is nearly useless, with the door open you only have access to a very small part of the firebox


Yeah, I watched a youtube and it looked like a small opening. Not sure I'd want that pivoting baffle either. Just seems like more moving parts.


webby3650 said:


> The Blaze King Ashford has a welded firebox, cast iron jacket and a thermostatic air control. Other than the top load, this sounds like your next stove!


Not sure if rScotty is a cat guy or not...


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## rScotty (Oct 17, 2016)

Woody Stover said:


> Yeah, I watched a youtube and it looked like a small opening. Not sure I'd want that pivoting baffle either. Just seems like more moving parts.
> Not sure if rScotty is a cat guy or not...



To tell the truth, I'm not sure if I'm a cat guy or not myself. (with apologies to my little buddy currently sleeping on the couch) 
I like the idea of reducing emissions - although from a larger perspective 'm not sure that it much matters if a tree decays in the woods or burns in my wood stove. Maybe it makes a difference in a populated area; that's not the case here. 

What I don't like about catalytics is that the stove has to burn so dangerously hot to fire it off. And then once the cat begins to operate, even more heat is created.  Frankly, I don't like to run my stove that hot in the first place. Besides, the stove might be efficient at that temperature, but my house isn't. 

What I want to buy next time is a stove that runs dependably when turned way down. Who decided to rate stoves at full throttle anyway? That seems crazy to me. I never turn a wood stove up except for the initial start or more likely to get the coals glowing in the morning, and I never, ever leave it unattended until it is turned back down. 

For my situation I don't see any advantage to having a high temperature catalyst. I wish there was an advantage I could use. A low temperature catalyst would sure be a selling point though. I'd be willing to pay well for that. 
 rScotty


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## rScotty (Oct 17, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> The Blaze King Ashford has a welded firebox, cast iron jacket and a thermostatic air control. Other than the top load, this sounds like your next stove!



How does that Blaze King thermostatic air control operate? How does the ACC operate? 
I see them both advertised, but don't quite understand the way they work. By contrast, the VC thermostat is simple enough that I can easily understand it. 
 rScotty


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## Woody Stover (Oct 17, 2016)

rScotty said:


> not sure that it much matters if a tree decays in the woods or burns in my wood stove.


 Yes, the amount of carbon released is the same, but the cat will burn more of the particulates generated from burning.


> What I don't like about catalytics is that the stove has to burn so dangerously hot to fire it off. And then once the cat begins to operate, even more heat is created.  Frankly, I don't like to run my stove that hot in the first place. What I want to buy next time is a stove that runs dependably when turned way down. Besides, the stove might be efficient at that temperature, but my house isn't.


I don't burn my stove very hot at all to ramp up to cat operating temp. I post all the time that I favor a moderate ramp-up. No sense in stressing the stove with excess heat. Sure, I have somewhat lively flames for twenty or thirty minutes, but by no means is this anything close to a roaring fire. Once the stove is up to temp, I close the bypass and cut the air to maybe .3-.5 on a scale of 4. With no flame in the box and the cat eating the smoke, the hottest spot on the stove will then be over the cat, with my stove top meter there reading about 500*. The cat might be over 1000 but there is a heat shield above it, protecting the top of the stove. The sides of the stove will be at 350 or less when in a low cat burn. In fact, one advantage of a cat stove is the fact that it can run at a l*ower* heat output, and still burn clean, than can a non-cat. The cat will burn smoke at 500*, a tube stove must have 1100* for the re-burnto happen. I seldom run my stove at high output, most often it's just idling along. It seems if I open up the air very much, to where I have flame in the box, some of the smoke starts getting past the cat un-burned. So I normally run with the air down to where there is no smoke coming out the stack. That's enough to keep the room temp here at 70.
If you *do* decide to get a new stove, don't make a snap decision based on a couple of posts by new owners of any particular stove, raving about how great it is. Rather, read threads on various stoves in depth to get a feel for how they're going to perform over the long haul, and any problems you might expect to encounter from them.


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## Woody Stover (Oct 17, 2016)

BK thermostat is like the old VC, a spring. Not sure about ACC or Pacific Energy's EBT2. Lotta threads to be read to get an idea of what's really happening with these systems.


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## branchburner (Oct 17, 2016)

rScotty said:


> What I don't like about catalytics is that the stove has to burn so dangerously hot to fire it off. And then once the cat begins to operate, even more heat is created.  Frankly, I don't like to run my stove that hot in the first place. Besides, the stove might be efficient at that temperature, but my house isn't.
> 
> What I want to buy next time is a stove that runs dependably when turned way down.



It sounds like what you might want actually IS a cat. I have no experience with them other than the newer cat-hybrids from Woodstock, but what you are describing is totally at odds with what I have seen. Using good dry wood, the stove comes up to a moderate temp that allows me to engage the cat and run the stove while maintaining both flue temps and stove-top temps that can be considerably lower than with my Oakwood.

I am curious if you monitor your flue temps with the Leyden. My experience with the Oakwood is that they ran much higher (when the rear afterburner was cruising along) than with stoves having either burn-tube or cat-hybrid technology. My impression is that a cat can give the lowest operating flue temps without producing creosote, meaning the least amount of heat lost up the flue.

I suppose there are example of cat stoves "running away" or overfiring, but that scenario seems more likely with a stove like the Leyden. For good stoves that can be run efficiently at low burns with lower flue temps, consider the cats from BK and the cat-hybrids from Woodstock.


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## Woody Stover (Oct 17, 2016)

branchburner said:


> I am curious if you monitor your flue temps with the Leyden. My experience with the Oakwood is that they ran much higher (when the rear afterburner was cruising along) than with stoves having either burn-tube or cat-hybrid technology. My impression is that a cat can give the lowest operating flue temps without producing creosote, meaning the least amount of heat lost up the flue.


I was going to mention temp meters but forgot to address this in my post. I have one meter lying on top of the tee snout about 6" behind the flue collar, which should be the hottest place to monitor flue temps. I don't let that meter get above 600. The cat meter is a probe that enters the back of the stove in the area of the flue exit. Before the cat is engaged, that meter tells me the internal temp of the stove around the flue exit. I cut air during the ramp-up to level off the probe around 900-1000, then let the meter on the stove top above the cat reach about 200 or so, then close the bypass, and the cat lights off.


> I suppose there are example of cat stoves "running away" or overfiring, but that scenario seems more likely with a stove like the Leyden. For good stoves that can be run efficiently at low burns with lower flue temps, consider the cats from BK and the cat-hybrids from Woodstock.


Once I have the bypass closed and cat lit, I cut the air down to the setting I want for the bulk of the burn cycle. Stove temps maintain that level, then slowly drop as the load gasses out and eventually becomes coals. I never have to worry that the stove temp is going to rise or that the stove will run away.


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## rScotty (Oct 18, 2016)

branchburner said:


> It sounds like what you might want actually IS a cat. I have no experience with them other than the newer cat-hybrids from Woodstock, but what you are describing is totally at odds with what I have seen. Using good dry wood, the stove comes up to a moderate temp that allows me to engage the cat and run the stove while maintaining both flue temps and stove-top temps that can be considerably lower than with my Oakwood.
> 
> I am curious if you monitor your flue temps with the Leyden. My experience with the Oakwood is that they ran much higher (when the rear afterburner was cruising along) than with stoves having either burn-tube or cat-hybrid technology. My impression is that a cat can give the lowest operating flue temps without producing creosote, meaning the least amount of heat lost up the flue.
> 
> I suppose there are example of cat stoves "running away" or overfiring, but that scenario seems more likely with a stove like the Leyden. For good stoves that can be run efficiently at low burns with lower flue temps, consider the cats from BK and the cat-hybrids from Woodstock.



Why would runaway be more likely on the Leyden? 

Sounds to me like I need to do some more research and figuring about cats. And it sounds like both you and Woody have differnent experiences from the things that I've heard. I've never actually used a cat. They aren't popular out west. Don't know why. My buddy doesn't like his ( on a VC) - too hot, but yours sounds like it works differently. Are you talking about Woodstocks? I've never seen one.

On the Leyden we get secondary burn but it happens in the firebox with the damper bypass partly open. Completely closing the bypass doesn't seem to be a reliable option on this stove. 

I do monitor temperatures but only with a bi-metallic temp gauge and not constantly. That needs improvement. Especially as I work with the Leyden.... What I'd like is to monitor half a dozen points constantly via thermocouples on the stove, flue, and pipe. I'm concerned about the temp on the pipe because it goes through a chaise in the attic. Definitely a need to put in some kind of remote monitoring setup. Ideas?  
 thanks, 
   rScotty


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> To be honest I can't think of any good old iron stoves made in the USA. VC would be it, it was never good in my opinion...


If we are talking good *old* cast iron stoves, the original VC line was excellent, IMO. The castings were beautiful and durable and the stoves did what they were designed to do pretty well for late 70's tech. Many are still in service today. It wasn't until the Acclaim and the introduction of refractory packages as a solution to meet EPA phase 2 that the line went downhill.

The Regency Hampton line isn't ok, but that is Canadian. Not sure where they are cast.


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## branchburner (Oct 18, 2016)

rScotty said:


> Why would runaway be more likely on the Leyden?
> 
> On the Leyden we get secondary burn but it happens in the firebox with the damper bypass partly open. Completely closing the bypass doesn't seem to be a reliable option on this stove.



I'm not sure about the newer configuration of the Leyden, where the damper bypass can be partly open, but with my Oakwood and other downdrafts I know, closing the bypass forces all the flue gasses into the rear combustion chamber, where most secondary combustion takes place. The only time I could see an adjustable damper would be in bringing the stove up to temp, before closing it completely to get secondaries.

That chamber has to be very hot to initiate secondaries, and once they get going with a full load of nice, dry wood the stove really cranks, sometimes creating a slight and audible "rumble" where you can hear the intensity of the combustion. In cases where there is extremely strong draft (or overdraft) it was not unheard of for this secondary combustion to "run away" to some degree, pushing surface temps over an 800f "overfire" range and even high enough to make the stove faintly glow. It also seems typical for external single-wall flue temps to run 50-100f higher with these stoves, at least with MINE, than with other burn technologies.

I understand there have been many revisions to the Leyden, but I am curious about leaving the bypass partly open and achieving secondaries in the main firebox. Is this method in a revised manual or brochure, and are there any burn tubes or other aids to secondary combustion contained within the main firebox? Again, I can't speak to the particulars of your stove. Here is old thread typical of problems sometimes reported:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/lopi-leyden-red-hot.48953/


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## webby3650 (Oct 18, 2016)

branchburner said:


> I'm not sure about the newer configuration of the Leyden, where the damper bypass can be partly open, but with my Oakwood and other downdrafts I know, closing the bypass forces all the flue gasses into the rear combustion chamber, where most secondary combustion takes place. The only time I could see an adjustable damper would be in bringing the stove up to temp, before closing it completely to get secondaries.
> 
> That chamber has to be very hot to initiate secondaries, and once they get going with a full load of nice, dry wood the stove really cranks, sometimes creating a slight and audible "rumble" where you can hear the intensity of the combustion. In cases where there is extremely strong draft (or overdraft) it was not unheard of for this secondary combustion to "run away" to some degree, pushing surface temps over an 800f "overfire" range and even high enough to make the stove faintly glow. It also seems typical for external single-wall flue temps to run 50-100f higher with these stoves, at least with MINE, than with other burn technologies.
> 
> ...


Never was the bypass designed to be partially open on the Leyden. Opened or closed like other stoves.


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## webby3650 (Oct 18, 2016)

rScotty said:


> Why would runaway be more likely on the Leyden?
> 
> Sounds to me like I need to do some more research and figuring about cats. And it sounds like both you and Woody have differnent experiences from the things that I've heard. I've never actually used a cat. They aren't popular out west. Don't know why. My buddy doesn't like his ( on a VC) - too hot, but yours sounds like it works differently. Are you talking about Woodstocks? I've never seen one.
> 
> ...


The Leyden is NOT catalytic. It's secondary combustion takes place in the rear of the stove but does not utilize a catalytic combuster. It takes extreme conditions to produce secondary combustion, whereas cat stoves only need a small amount of heat in comparison to creat a clean burning environment. All cat stoves are not created equal, VC should not be the control for cat stoves! They are very poor performers in comparison to the other cat stoves still produced! I.E. BK and Woodstock.


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## branchburner (Oct 18, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> Never was the bypass designed to be partially open on the Leyden. Opened or closed like other stoves.



Well, that would be my assumption, until rScotty posted this earlier in the thread:
"... a kit showed up from the factory which contained parts to fix the problem that I hadn't even told them about. The fix was simple, clever, and easy to install. 100% fix, and also allowed the bypass to be set (and to stay set) in an infinite range of positions. "

That is the ratcheting modification, correct? Why ratchet if not intended to be in multiple positions?

And then he writes:
"On the Leyden we get secondary burn but it happens in the firebox with the damper bypass partly open. Completely closing the bypass doesn't seem to be a reliable option on this stove."


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## bholler (Oct 18, 2016)

rScotty said:


> In fact, the only thing I don't like about the VC is the cast construction.


There is a whole lot more to dislike about vc stoves than that.


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## rScotty (Oct 18, 2016)

branchburner said:


> Well, that would be my assumption, until rScotty posted this earlier in the thread:
> "... a kit showed up from the factory which contained parts to fix the problem that I hadn't even told them about. The fix was simple, clever, and easy to install. 100% fix, and also allowed the bypass to be set (and to stay set) in an infinite range of positions. "
> 
> That is the ratcheting modification, correct? Why ratchet if not intended to be in multiple positions?
> ...



Thank you, branchburner. Yes, I was referring to the ratcheting modification that Lopi provided as an improvement to the bypass lever operation. A simple latch would have been easier to design. Looking at the kit, my assumption was that this was a factory modification to allow the degree of bypass to be adjusted by the user - since doing so was clearly necessary in order to get the stove to run correctly.  I set mine to allow for for six different bypass positions including full open or fully shut. 
I'm sure I'm not the only person who found that reliable burning required the bypass to be only partly closed. As a bonus, we can sometimes get a secondary burn going right at the top of the firebox. Unusual & beautiful bright whispy dancing flames. It would appear that a reliable secondary burn on this stove requires being able to visually see the secondary flames. Is that true of all stoves? I suspect it is... BTW, I usually run mine at about 60% closed. That is a position that works well for my stove and I have marked the ratcheting bypass lever so that it is repeatable. 

No, the original owner's manual does not mention running with the bypass lever partly engaged. But keep in mind that manual was written before the company made the modification to the lever that allows for positive locking at partial engagement.

Frankly I didn't find the owner's manuals to be correct as to the stove operation. That didn't surprise me, and that was good since this one has a number of questionable passages. On page 21 regarding bypass lever operation, the bypass lever is described as being "pulled out or pushed in". That's clearly incorrect. The bypass lever is rotated; not pushed at all. It is the air intake that works by being pulled out or pushed in. 
On the next page of the manual it recommends that after starting the stove it be run with the bypass wide open and the air flow at maximum for up to 45 minutes in order to get the stove up to heat before engaging the bypass..... 
  Still learning,
     rScotty


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## branchburner (Oct 19, 2016)

rScotty said:


> It would appear that a reliable secondary burn on this stove requires being able to visually see the secondary flames. Is that true of all stoves?



In fact, both downdraft (Leyden/Oakwood) and cat technologies allow for secondary burning to occur out of sight, so a firebox that may appear to be "smoldering" or out altogether might have good secondary combustion occurring "behind the scenes." Wispy ghost flames would occur in my Oakwood's firebox, but since the rear combustion chamber is out of sight, the only way to confirm it was fully engaged was to check the external temps (starting to glow is a pretty good indication that secondaries are raging).

In burn tube stoves (or hybrid-cats w/ burn tubes) the secondaries are in full view, in the main firebox rather than in a catalyst chamber or rear combustion package.


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## rScotty (Oct 19, 2016)

branchburner said:


> In fact, both downdraft (Leyden/Oakwood) and cat technologies allow for secondary burning to occur out of sight, so a firebox that may appear to be "smoldering" or out altogether might have good secondary combustion occurring "behind the scenes." Wispy ghost flames would occur in my Oakwood's firebox, but since the rear combustion chamber is out of sight, the only way to confirm it was fully engaged was to check the external temps (starting to glow is a pretty good indication that secondaries are raging).
> 
> In burn tube stoves (or hybrid-cats w/ burn tubes) the secondaries are in full view, in the main firebox rather than in a catalyst chamber or rear combustion package.



I believe that the Isle Royale is a burn tube design. If so, it's the only one I know of. Who makes a hybrid-cat w/ burn tubes that features a full view of the secondary combustion?
I like being able to view the fire, and think of it as being a fairly recent technological advance in wood stoves. No wood stove used to offer that feature; now most of them do. It's a great upgrade in aesthetics as well as giving us more knowledge about the burn.  
  rScotty


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## bholler (Oct 19, 2016)

rScotty said:


> I believe that the Isle Royale is a burn tube design. If so, it's the only one I know of.



What do you mean the only one there are more tube stoves out there than cat stoves and way more than down drafts.  I believe all quads are tube stoves and most lopis are.



rScotty said:


> Who makes a hybrid-cat w/ burn tubes that features a full view of the secondary combustion?



I know regencies hybrids do the cat is obscured by a flame impingement shield but you can still see the glow.  I know they are others but that is the only one  I know of off hand.



rScotty said:


> I like being able to view the fire, and think of it as being a fairly recent technological advance in wood stoves. No wood stove used to offer that feature; now most of them do. It's a great upgrade in aesthetics as well as giving us more knowledge about the burn.


Not really there have been stoves with windows for a long time.  But only in the past 20-25 years are there ones that the glass stays clean enough to really see the fire through regularly.


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## webby3650 (Oct 19, 2016)

rScotty said:


> Thank you, branchburner. Yes, I was referring to the ratcheting modification that Lopi provided as an improvement to the bypass lever operation. A simple latch would have been easier to design. Looking at the kit, my assumption was that this was a factory modification to allow the degree of bypass to be adjusted by the user - since doing so was clearly necessary in order to get the stove to run correctly.  I set mine to allow for for six different bypass positions including full open or fully shut.
> I'm sure I'm not the only person who found that reliable burning required the bypass to be only partly closed. As a bonus, we can sometimes get a secondary burn going right at the top of the firebox. Unusual & beautiful bright whispy dancing flames. It would appear that a reliable secondary burn on this stove requires being able to visually see the secondary flames. Is that true of all stoves? I suspect it is... BTW, I usually run mine at about 60% closed. That is a position that works well for my stove and I have marked the ratcheting bypass lever so that it is repeatable.
> 
> No, the original owner's manual does not mention running with the bypass lever partly engaged. But keep in mind that manual was written before the company made the modification to the lever that allows for positive locking at partial engagement.
> ...


This bypass ratchet revision was not intended to allow the bypass to have multiple range settings. It's either open or closed. The rachet was just a simple way to prevent the bypass from falling open during operation. 

Don't you ever hear a low rumble coming from the back of the stove? I sure did. That's the secondary combustion taking place in the combustion chamber, like the stove was designed to do. With the bypass 40% open you are losing most of your efficiency. Not good


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## rScotty (Oct 19, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> This bypass ratchet revision was not intended to allow the bypass to have multiple range settings. It's either open or closed. The rachet was just a simple way to prevent the bypass from falling open during operation.
> 
> Don't you ever hear a low rumble coming from the back of the stove? I sure did. That's the secondary combustion taking place in the combustion chamber, like the stove was designed to do. With the bypass 40% open you are losing most of your efficiency. Not good



I repectfully disagree. It would have been much easier to make a positive one-position latch. The only reason to imake it more complex would be to allow for adjusting the percentage of gases being bypassed. the new fractional bypass attachement is entirely too nice not to have been intentional.

Suppose I describe the way this stove works and see if it sounds familiar? Say the stove has started up and been burning nicely for an hour. The pipe is hot too. The air intake control which started out wide open is now back to being almost entirely closed to prevent too much of a primary combustion fire. There is already a reasonable bed of coals forming on the ashes. The stove itself is at a reasonable temperature....pretty darn hot in fact.
Now at this point if the  bypass is engaged 100% and the air opened a little more....to less than a third of the way open, the thing that will probably happen is that the fire will gradually just go out. But every once in a while if I open the air intake just a hair farther than a third of the way open I will begin to hear the growling that you are talking about and the stove will rapidly begin to get very hot. I was a welder and machinist for 30 years. I understand hot metal. I simply will not run any stove in that manner. Especially a cast one. After ten years with this stove I know it's tricks. And it's main trick is how much it is incredibly sensitive to the position of the air control and the draft/bypass lever.

I believe that with the help of this forum I have finally figured this stove out. I think that the best way to run the Lopi Leyden is more like old style wood stoves were run before secondary and/or catalytic combustion were every invented by the stove industry. In those days the whole firebox of a woodstove was designed to do what is now called "primary combustion". The rate of primary combustion is adjusted by paying close attention to the air intake position, and - at least in the case of the Lopi Leyden - the bypass is used in partial engagement where it functions more as a flue damper to assist in controlling the rate of primary combustion. I also believe that run that way the Leyden is a reasonable and safe if rather old fashioned wood stove. However, unning the Leyden in secondary combustion mode is to be avoided. It doesn't run dependably in secondary combustion mode.
rScotty


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## branchburner (Oct 19, 2016)

rScotty said:


> I repectfully disagree. It would have been much easier to make a positive one-position latch. The only reason to imake it more complex would be to allow for adjusting the percentage of gases being bypassed.
> 
> Say the stove has started up and been burning nicely for an hour. The pipe is hot too. The air intake control which started out wide open is now back to being almost entirely closed to prevent too much of a primary combustion fire.
> 
> The rate of primary combustion is adjusted by paying close attention to the air intake position, and - at least in the case of the Lopi Leyden - the bypass is used in partial engagement where it functions more as a flue damper to assist in controlling the rate of primary combustion.



So what you are describing is at odds the opinion of webby3650, but what he and I were speaking of is the use of the bypass during SECONDARY combustion... for that to work, he is correct, it must be closed 100%. But I do agree with you, for PRIMARY combustion a partially closed bypass makes perfect sense.

What I discovered with my Oakwood was that in trying to establish a deep coal bed after a cold start, a fully open bypass (my only option) would allow the flue (and sometimes even the stove top) to reach very high temps. In that long warm-up period before I could close the bypass to get secondaries, even with my air intake shut way back I was losing tremendous amounts of heat up a very hot flue. 

So you are right - the bypass used in partial engagement functions as a flue damper to assist in controlling the rate of primary combustion. And with my stove, not having that option, I considered putting in a pipe damper for that very reason. Even when you shut your primary air intake, you still get a flood of uncontrolled air coming in through the hidden secondary air intakes. In tall chimney setups or conditions of high draft, this initial burn phase means a hot pipe and wasted fuel.

(This is why I consider the downdraft technology to be among the least efficient designs if you are going to run multiple smaller, shorter fires in the fall and spring.)


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## branchburner (Oct 19, 2016)

rScotty said:


> I also believe that run that way the Leyden is a reasonable and safe if rather old fashioned wood stove. However, running the Leyden in secondary combustion mode is to be avoided. It doesn't run dependably in secondary combustion mode.



Well, yes, but here you are just admitting that this stove has fatally flawed design. Even if you can run it fairly efficiently with good control...  and I believe you probably CAN get some good secondary combustion within the main firebox, at times... what's the point of a modern EPA stove with secondary burn technology if you can't ever use that technology?


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## branchburner (Oct 19, 2016)

rScotty said:


> I believe that the Isle Royale is a burn tube design. If so, it's the only one I know of. Who makes a hybrid-cat w/ burn tubes that features a full view of the secondary combustion?



The Isle is one of the only TOP-loading ones, and so far as I know it has been discontinued.

One hybrid-cat w/ burn tubes that features a full view of the non-cat secondary combustion -- a really GREAT light show at times -- is the stove I just bought, the Woodstock Ideal Steel (larger version of the Absolute that I beta-tested).  Making me look forward to winter!


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## webby3650 (Oct 19, 2016)

rScotty said:


> I repectfully disagree. It would have been much easier to make a positive one-position latch. The only reason to imake it more complex would be to allow for adjusting the percentage of gases being bypassed. the new fractional bypass attachement is entirely too nice not to have been intentional.
> 
> Suppose I describe the way this stove works and see if it sounds familiar? Say the stove has started up and been burning nicely for an hour. The pipe is hot too. The air intake control which started out wide open is now back to being almost entirely closed to prevent too much of a primary combustion fire. There is already a reasonable bed of coals forming on the ashes. The stove itself is at a reasonable temperature....pretty darn hot in fact.
> Now at this point if the  bypass is engaged 100% and the air opened a little more....to less than a third of the way open, the thing that will probably happen is that the fire will gradually just go out. But every once in a while if I open the air intake just a hair farther than a third of the way open I will begin to hear the growling that you are talking about and the stove will rapidly begin to get very hot. I was a welder and machinist for 30 years. I understand hot metal. I simply will not run any stove in that manner. Especially a cast one. After ten years with this stove I know it's tricks. And it's main trick is how much it is incredibly sensitive to the position of the air control and the draft/bypass lever.
> ...


I don't need you to describe how the stove works. I've owned them and work on them all the time. I've been as deep into a Leyden as you can get..
Leaving the bypass partially open was never the intention, not ever. I'm glad you found a way to make a flawed design work your particular setup.


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## rScotty (Oct 19, 2016)

branchburner said:


> Well, yes, but here you are just admitting that this stove has fatally flawed design. Even if you can run it fairly efficiently with good control...  and I believe you probably CAN get some good secondary combustion within the main firebox, at times... what's the point of a modern EPA stove with secondary burn technology if you can't ever use that technology?




This is amazing, BranchBurner....now that we are all using the same terms, we find that you and I and Webby and several others are basically all in pretty close agreement! I now can see why the intention of a secondary bypass is for it to be closed 100% - what confused me is that the Lopi Leyden just doesn't work well that way. Using this forum's search function, I found that previous posters also mentioned their Leyden's bypass mechanism. I'd like to think that someone at the factory realized that their stove design was indeed fatally flawed at 100% bypass, so this wise factory guy went ahead and designed a ratcheting bypass that allowed Leyden owners to safely do exactly what they were all doing anyway - which was running them at partial bypass.    

Branchwood, your experience with your Oakwood sure sounds remarkably similar to mine with the Lopi Leyden. I think the stoves are similar - perhaps even from the same designer/manufacturer.

Living with this stove for 10 years now, I am confident that with partial engagement the bypass makes a good damper for primary burning for occassional use. Just as you say. And yes, with careful adjustment and frequent tending I can even get some secondary burn within the primary chamber itself. I now feel more comfortable that the Leyden can be used within limits while I look for a our next stove, which will be a model designed to take advantage of the newer technology and built to the highest standards. That's always been the goal. Compared to what they do for us, wood stoves just aren't expensive enough to make price the most important factor.

I came to this forum hoping to learn more about stove technology because it is time to buy a better stove. And while doing that, I also needed to get a better understanding of the problems with the Leyden. What I found is that my problems with the Lopi Leyden aren't unique. But I've also come to understand that now that I in educated in how it works I can live with the shortcomings while looking for another stove.  - I also believe that manufacturers can't advance technology without making mistakes along the way. I'm only irked when they use that process without admitting to the mistakes as well as the successes. 

Nope, I don't yet know all the features that I want in the next stove, but one thing is for sure....I won't again buy a stove that has combustion taking place some place inside the stove where I can't see it unless it is of bulletproof double-box construction or I have real control over it - maybe both. No more hidden gimmicks. That eliminates the current group of downdraft rear secondary burn types, but there are other technologies.

BranchBurner, your new Woodstock hybrid catalytic with burn tubes sounds like it solves many problems for your application. I'm intrigued; and wonder if it allows you to watch and fine tune the combustion in the cat chamber?  Their Absolute model is sized about right for our site.
I'm learning from my mistakes and need to know only a little more before deciding.
   Enjoy and thank you guys,
     rScotty


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## branchburner (Oct 19, 2016)

rScotty said:


> I'd like to think that someone at the factory realized that their stove design was indeed fatally flawed at 100% bypass, so this wise factory guy went ahead and designed a ratcheting bypass that allowed Leyden owners to safely do exactly what they were all doing anyway - which was running them at partial bypass....


 
Well, webby may very well be right that it was never really the intention, but just happens to work in primary-burn mode. You'd have to find someone at the company to confirm, but I doubt many people were ever trying to run at partial bypass. Maybe some had a pipe damper, which would slow the fire in both primary AND secondary mode, as needed.

The stove is not 100% flawed, as it can work with very dry wood and draft that is sufficent but not OVER-sufficient. But after a few years, it is not unusual for the combustion package in some of these models to degrade or get clogged with ash so that it works less well, or not at all. It is best not to remove it to clean, but after a point there are some situations where it really must be removed and potentially replaced, as external vacuuming is no longer sufficient.

I wonder also... how seasoned is your wood? I find with the Oakwood that many species need a full two years cut/split/stacked to get the afterburner to fire off reliably. It also takes a huge learning curve of using the right size and configuration of wood (not covering the shoe brick) and fine-tuning the timing of bypass closure and air supply. Basically, a PITA!

So I agree....I won't again buy a stove among the current group of downdraft rear secondary burn types. The Woodstock hybrid cat with burn tubes won't allow you to watch the cat, but with practice and attention to the air control, I think you can fine tune the combustion in the cat chamber to some degree.


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2016)

The problem with a fussy stove is that even if the setup works ok in average conditions, these conditions don't stay the same. Outdoor temps vary, in some places dramatically, changing draft; wood varies both in species and dryness; wind varies too.


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## rScotty (Oct 19, 2016)

branchburner said:


> I wonder also... how seasoned is your wood? I find with the Oakwood that many species need a full two years cut/split/stacked to get the afterburner to fire off reliably. It also takes a huge learning curve of using the right size and configuration of wood (not covering the shoe brick) and fine-tuning the timing of bypass closure and air supply. Basically, a PITA!



Good question! Perhaps we should have started there. Although we live in a pine and fir forest and most people who live around here burn those woods I don't burn pine or fir. Too much resin in it for me no matter how long it is seasoned. Besides, those trees are my friends....

What I do is start my fire with aspen & oak scraps from a cabinet maker. After the fire starts, we burn oak blocks for the long burn and really nothing else unless I've got some seasoned fruit wood - but that's rare since there is a ready source of 4x6x9" oak heartwood blocks from a local mill. This is scrap to them, The blocks are the ends cut off when an oak billet is cut to length after seasoning and before being treated. The blocks are sold by the truckload. A great resource & inexpensive.  The mill seasons the wood for years and then we season them for at least another year. So the wood is very consistent. Dry oak keeps just about forever.
rScotty


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## bholler (Oct 19, 2016)

rScotty said:


> Although we live in a pine and fir forest and most people who live around here burn those woods I don't burn pine or fir. Too much resin in it for me no matter how long it is seasoned.


That is not true at all pine and fir are perfectly fine to burn if dry.  It is much less dense so it has fewer btus than an equal volume of hardwood but there is nothing wrong with burning it.



rScotty said:


> This is scrap to them, The blocks are the ends cut off when an oak billet is cut to length after seasoning and before being treated.


But what moisture content do they dry to?  And how do you stack those blocks?  If they are stacked tight they have no airflow at all and will not season well at all.  I am not saying this is what is causing problems down draft stoves are very fussy and hard to get working right.  But you should really check the moisture content of the wood to be sure.


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## webby3650 (Oct 19, 2016)

rScotty said:


> This is amazing....now that I am using the proper terms, we find that you and I and webby and several others are basically all in pretty close agreement! I now can see why the intention of a secondary bypass is for it to be closed 100% - what confused me is that the Lopi Leyden just doesn't work well that way. I'd like to think that someone at the factory realized that their stove design was indeed fatally flawed at 100% bypass, so this wise factory guy went ahead and designed a ratcheting bypass that allowed Leyden owners to safely do exactly what they were all doing anyway - which was running them at partial bypass.
> 
> Branchwood, your experience with your Oakwood sure sounds remarkably similar to mine with the Leyden.
> 
> ...


You wil never ever get anyone at Lopi to admit that any of their products were inferior. They will admit it though, after they've discontinued it and have a better design.. They are such an arrogant company! The factory rep would never admit any fault with the Leyden when I went toe to toe with him. He even said it was the same proven non-cat design that VC had been using for years...Then I bought the cape cod and it experienced all the failures that Lopi failed to acknowledge... Lopi won't get anymore of my money!


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## rScotty (Oct 20, 2016)

bholler said:


> That is not true at all pine and fir are perfectly fine to burn if dry.  It is much less dense so it has fewer btus than an equal volume of hardwood but there is nothing wrong with burning it.
> 
> But what moisture content do they dry to?  And how do you stack those blocks?  If they are stacked tight they have no airflow at all and will not season well at all.  I am not saying this is what is causing problems down draft stoves are very fussy and hard to get working right.  But you should really check the moisture content of the wood to be sure.



On the pine and fir what I don't like isn't the lack of density as much as the resin and pitch. Seasoning doesn't change those tarry things. I've burned them in past years It became a matter of preference & how often I wanted to clean out my stovepipe. There's less cleaning with the oak. But I'd burn pine in a pinch if it was all we had. It's just that with all the oak blocks available burning pine isn't necessary.

As to moisture content of seasoned wood here, that depends on the RH of the air. It's dry out here in the high western mountains. Wood that is under cover and insulated from the ground will eventually get into equilibrium with the humidity of the air, which averages about a little less than 10% annually. Although it can average 11% in Nov, Dec, & Jan. I agree that the way wood is stacked and spaced makes a noticible difference in the short term. After a few years the RH of the air is what matters.
Folks here sort of take the dryness for granted.

But it would be fun to measure the moisture of the wood anyway. I may take your advice and get a moisture meter. Available online? Any favorites? Hmm....I wonder how best to get past the surface of the wood when measuring moisture content??..... After all, we want to measure interior seasoning rather than the surface; the surface mostly reflects the RH of the recent air.  My guess is that it's common to drill a couple of holes and then put the probes in the holes. But how deep and how far apart should the probes go? Or am I missing something...What's the accepted method? 
   rScotty


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## rScotty (Oct 20, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> You wil never ever get anyone at Lopi to admit that any of their products were inferior. They will admit it though, after they've discontinued it and have a better design.. They are such an arrogant company! The factory rep would never admit any fault with the Leyden when I went toe to toe with him. He even said it was the same proven non-cat design that VC had been using for years...Then I bought the cape cod and it experienced all the failures that Lopi failed to acknowledge... Lopi won't get anymore of my money!



Webby, I sure do sympathize. After all Lopi got my money too!

As a young man I used to get all bent and ride around on my high horse believing that everyone should "man up" & accept responsibility for their mistakes. I still feel that way, but with age came the realization that just wasn't going to happen very often. 

Now as an old, old man I've come to believe that since everyone makes mistakes and few admit to them, what matters more to me now is whether they learn from those mistakes. So I'll look at Lopi and see how they've done. But you can bet I'll be looking more deeply this time.
 rScotty


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## branchburner (Oct 20, 2016)

rScotty said:


> On the pine and fir what I don't like isn't the lack of density as much as the resin and pitch. Seasoning doesn't change those tarry things. I've burned them in past years It became a matter of preference & how often I wanted to clean out my stovepipe. There's less cleaning with the oak



What that likely means is that your oak was drier, because resin and pitch in dry softwoods should combust completely if the wood is fully seasoned. While it can make them a PITA to handle when green, resins are NOT a direct source of creosote accumulation in chimneys. Creosote is a result of incomplete combustion, regardless of wood species.

To the degree people find more creosote with softwoods that are fully dry, it is likely because their technique in burning (air supply, damper control, etc) is causing less complete combustion. Added to that, the lower density means a shorter and lower-BTU fire for a fully loaded stove, meaning more startups are required if using that wood. Since startup involve lots of smoke and no secondary combustion, the more of them you have the more creosote you are likely to get.


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## bholler (Oct 20, 2016)

rScotty said:


> But it would be fun to measure the moisture of the wood anyway. I may take your advice and get a moisture meter. Available online? Any favorites? Hmm....I wonder how best to get past the surface of the wood when measuring moisture content??..... After all, we want to measure interior seasoning rather than the surface; the surface mostly reflects the RH of the recent air. My guess is that it's common to drill a couple of holes and then put the probes in the holes. But how deep and how far apart should the probes go? Or am I missing something...What's the accepted method?
> rScotty


For firewood any cheap meter will be accurate enough you can get them for around $30 lots of places.  As far as using it you split a piece and measure on the fresh split face in the middle.


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## Woody Stover (Oct 20, 2016)

bholler said:


> For firewood any cheap meter will be accurate enough you can get them for around $30 lots of places.


If you have a Harbor Freight there, I think they have one for about $15. Or you could... https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/using-a-multimeter-to-measure-wood-moisture-level.40033/


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## begreen (Oct 20, 2016)

branchburner said:


> What that likely means is that your oak was drier, because resin and pitch in dry softwoods should combust completely if the wood is fully seasoned. While it can make them a PITA to handle when green, resins are NOT a direct source of creosote accumulation in chimneys. Creosote is a result of incomplete combustion, regardless of wood species.


We burned fir exclusively last year. Just cleaned the chimney two days ago and got a total of about 5 ounces of soot and sote.


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## rScotty (Oct 20, 2016)

bholler said:


> For firewood any cheap meter will be accurate enough you can get them for around $30 lots of places.  As far as using it you split a piece and measure on the fresh split face in the middle.



Simple and elegant. Makes sense. I like it.


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## Woody Stover (Oct 20, 2016)

begreen said:


> We burned fir exclusively last year.


Where did you get it, grabbing road kill? Oh, I mis-read...carry on.


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