# Road Salt



## Seasoned Oak (Jan 12, 2020)

BG  - Chat moved to separate thread


SpaceBus said:


> I feel like bituminous tar and rubber being washed off the roads is also a bad idea.


And road salt -ice melt chemicals. Might be hard to find a more eco friendly for these.  Sand works to some extent.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 12, 2020)

Seasoned Oak said:


> And road salt -ice melt chemicals. Might be hard to find a more eco friendly for these.  Sand works to some extent.


Beet juice works better than salt or calcium chloride, but it is more expensive, but also better for the environment.


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## Ashful (Jan 13, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Beet juice works better than salt or calcium chloride, but it is more expensive, but also better for the environment.


Beet juice as ice melt?  I know it’s a popular non-corrosive CaCl2 replacement for tire ballasting, but wasn’t aware it was a good ice melter.  I will say it’s as slippery as greased ice when it leaks onto your barn floor, which likely makes it a poor choice for ice melt applications, even if it does melt the ice.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 13, 2020)

Ashful said:


> Beet juice as ice melt?  I know it’s a popular non-corrosive CaCl2 replacement for tire ballasting, but wasn’t aware it was a good ice melter.  I will say it’s as slippery as greased ice when it leaks onto your barn floor, which likely makes it a poor choice for ice melt applications, even if it does melt the ice.



The biggest downside appears to be roads that smell of stale coffee... As if that's worse than salt   









						Cities are starting to put beet juice, beer waste, and pickle brine on icy winter roads to cut down on salt
					

Cities are finding inventive ways to help salt stick to roads instead of washing into lakes and rivers.




					www.businessinsider.com


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 13, 2020)

Any kind of ice melt i ever saw used on sidewalks damages the concrete. Not sure how they put so much on the concrete highways and it doesnt eat them to pieces. It sure does eat sidewalks and steps to pieces. Even the stuff that claim "safe for sidewalks".


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## Ashful (Jan 13, 2020)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Any kind of ice melt i ever saw used on sidewalks damages the concrete. Not sure how they put so much on the concrete highways and it doesnt eat them to pieces. It sure does eat sidewalks and steps to pieces. Even the stuff that claim "safe for sidewalks".


We don’t have many concrete highways left in eastern PA, most have been covered with blacktop over the last 25 years. I always assumed this was the reason for it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 13, 2020)

Ashful said:


> We don’t have many concrete highways left in eastern PA, most have been covered with blacktop over the last 25 years. I always assumed this was the reason for it.


They did do a big part of Rt 81 with concrete yrs ago, possibly when oil went thru the roof ,but i seems like they are  converting it all back to blacktop . Was like driving over a washboard with the concrete. Dont ,miss it a bit.


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## peakbagger (Jan 13, 2020)

There are various surface treatments that can be applied to pavement in advance of certain storm types that prevents the ice from adhering to the road. It requires good planning in advance. The treatments are not cheap but can reduce the amount of salt used. Salt is mostly a convenience. It extends bare tar conditions into the winter. That allows more traffic to go faster with marginal equipment. Far northern countries typically do not use salt. They also require studs or chains and traffic goes slower.  Long ago I had an uncle that owned an auto junkyard north of Montreal. The cars from north of him had good bodies but rough suspensions while the cars from south of there had heavy body rot.


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## Grizzerbear (Jan 13, 2020)

I work for the street department of my local town and we use salt. It sucks really. Its only good to around 17 or 18 degrees then it wont melt the ice and snow so we have to add chemical to it. Thats not too often down here tho. As far as concrete vs black top......its cheaper. There is a lot more labor involved with concrete because of forms and finish work whereas with asphalt pretty much two guys on a paver and a couple guys ahead of them shoveling some in low spots or what have you before paver goes over it. Blacktop takes the abuse of salt pretty well too. I hate the salt tho because all winter long it is impregnated in the shop parking area. It really eats a vehicle inside out and there is no way to stay ahead of it short of washing your rig every day.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 13, 2020)

Not to mention it's hard on automobile electrical systems.  Out here in east nowhere, it's more about mud than anything else.  Pavement ends 2 miles from the farm.  Color choice of vehicles out here is tan or silver...lol


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## JimBear (Jan 13, 2020)

I have hauled a lot of road salt from mines in Kansas, at one mine I would occasionally pickup loads of road salt coated/drowned in beet juice. It seemed to go more to landscaping companies that were doing sidewalks & parking lots. All I can say about it is that straight up salt comes out of the trailer much better & is cleaner to haul. That beet juice covered stuff almost had to be shoveled out & usually required a washout to get that syrup coating off the slopes of my trailer. I can’t remember the trade name off the top of my head.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 14, 2020)

This winter I've been working for a local snow removal company and we use tons of salt every storm. The big trucks try to get the roads salted before snow starts to accumulate, but often times they are spreading as they plow to break up the ice that usually forms as they plow. My job is to manage the shovel crew and doing the "finish work" which involves lots of shoveling and salt on walkways, decking, etc for local businesses. Pretty much all of the exposed concrete is pitted, cracked, and busted. Most parking lots are gravel or black top. Not much concrete around.


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## semipro (Jan 15, 2020)

Most probably don't realize the extent of water contamination that has resulted from the use of salt on roads and elsewhere.  It has polluted many drinking water supplies including wells and surface reservoirs.  in Northern VA, a primary reservoir, the Occoquan, is reaching levels of sodium that may soon require removal treatment (a very expensive option) or going to an alternative water source.  

Although state departments of transportation are frequently blamed some interesting research from NH has shown that private sources such as parking lots and driveways actually contribute more than their fair share when compared to public roads.  Many private operators over apply either though bad practices or the direction of property owners that insist on seeing salt crystals on the ground even when no snow or ice may be present or forecast.  They see it as liability aversion.


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## semipro (Jan 15, 2020)

Grizzerbear said:


> I work for the street department of my local town and we use salt. It sucks really. Its only good to around 17 or 18 degrees then it wont melt the ice and snow so we have to add chemical to it. Thats not too often down here tho. As far as concrete vs black top......its cheaper. There is a lot more labor involved with concrete because of forms and finish work whereas with asphalt pretty much two guys on a paver and a couple guys ahead of them shoveling some in low spots or what have you before paver goes over it. Blacktop takes the abuse of salt pretty well too. I hate the salt tho because all winter long it is impregnated in the shop parking area. It really eats a vehicle inside out and there is no way to stay ahead of it short of washing your rig every day.


It is messy when applied to salt as a wetting agent or alone.  
Organics like beet juice are also bad for the surface waters they end up in.  Once large slugs of organics like beet juice hit a waterway its biological degradation consumes most of the dissolved oxygen in the water and can result in fish kills.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 15, 2020)

semipro said:


> Most probably don't realize the extent of water contamination that has resulted from the use of salt on roads and elsewhere.  It has polluted many drinking water supplies including wells and surface reservoirs.  in Northern VA, a primary reservoir, the Occoquan, is reaching levels of sodium that may soon require removal treatment (a very expensive option) or going to an alternative water source.
> 
> Although state departments of transportation are frequently blamed some interesting research from NH has shown that private sources such as parking lots and driveways actually contribute more than their fair share when compared to public roads.  Many private operators over apply either though bad practices or the direction of property owners that insist on seeing salt crystals on the ground even when no snow or ice may be present or forecast.  They see it as liability aversion.



I can relate to that.  Salt application washes down storm sewers and gets in the lakes and streams.  It's the put it on and it washes away and sight unseen syndrome.  I'm very glad I live far removed from any salt or de icer application on an unpaved road miles from pavement and sat application.

Never knew beet juice was used.  I always thought it was for ag tractor tire ballast.


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## ben94122 (Jan 16, 2020)

Out here in the Sierras we use sand, which works great.  Never understood why it wasn't used in the rest of the country.  Maybe there are just too many roads to make sanding practical.  I use sand on my front walkway, too.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 16, 2020)

Hot sand on ice is great.  Hot sand melts into the ice and creates a sandpaper like surface.  Used in Northern Michigan but not down here because they say the sand clogs storm sewers.  Sounds lame to me but what do I know anyway.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 16, 2020)

ben94122 said:


> Out here in the Sierras we use sand, which works great.  Never understood why it wasn't used in the rest of the country.  Maybe there are just too many roads to make sanding practical.  I use sand on my front walkway, too.


Its about as eco friendly as you can get. I can imagine what salt does to a clean trout stream.


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## Qvist (Jan 16, 2020)

Iv'e heard of  cinders used before? Certantly not as eco friendly as sand I would assume.


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## ABMax24 (Jan 16, 2020)

Lately our road maintenance crews have been using less and less salt on the roads. More so due to cost and budget cutbacks that environmental reasons, but to be honest I like it better. I on a daily basis cross the boundary between 2 municipalities that do maintenance at different intervals, that leads to some roads being salted with the next section not. The section that wasn't salted gets extremely slippery with the salt tracked onto it from the salted areas. It's also been too cold lately for salt to be effective, so some sand is used instead. But a lot of places the maintenance crews plow the road and that's it, only sanding critical intersections.

We have all gotten used to the change in road care, most of us now run winter tires many of them being studded and just adapt to the conditions. It's also not uncommon to see semi's running around through town with tires chains on to get enough traction.

Some cities have tries calcium chloride with extreme push back from residents due to increased corrosion on vehicles, and others have used beet juice with moderately successful results. Ultimately the best seems to be to just keep the snow off the roads by plowing, to apply sand as needed and run winter tires, leaving salt only for freezing rain events.


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## WinterinWI (Jan 17, 2020)

semipro said:


> Many private operators over apply either though bad practices or the direction of property owners that insist on seeing salt crystals on the ground even when no snow or ice may be present or forecast. They see it as liability aversion.



There is certainly truth to that. Many business owners would rather dump a bunch of extra salt down than risk an expensive workers comp claim or lawsuit.

There are some snow/temperature conditions that I just shake my head when I see salt being put down, particularly when it's still snowing. Some types of snow are pretty easy to walk on without being slippery, and turning it into slush can make it worse.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 17, 2020)

CACL and brine are death on vehicle electrical systems and suspension parts too.


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## Starbrightsteve (Jan 18, 2020)

semipro said:


> Most probably don't realize the extent of water contamination that has resulted from the use of salt on roads and elsewhere.  It has polluted many drinking water supplies including wells and surface reservoirs.  in Northern VA, a primary reservoir, the Occoquan, is reaching levels of sodium that may soon require removal treatment (a very expensive option) or going to an alternative water source.
> 
> Although state departments of transportation are frequently blamed some interesting research from NH has shown that private sources such as parking lots and driveways actually contribute more than their fair share when compared to public roads.  Many private operators over apply either though bad practices or the direction of property owners that insist on seeing salt crystals on the ground even when no snow or ice may be present or forecast.  They see it as liability aversion.


Here in North central PA, the gas well fracking industry is trying to get state politicians to OK the use of the fluid that comes back up from wells to melt snow and ice . This stuff is toxic waste and all of it is radioactive. They want to use it on paved roads in winter and unpaved ones in summer( for dust controll). There are large ponds of it around this area just waiting for someone to figure a way to get rid of it. It was rejected at local wastewater treatment plants partly because of the radioactivity.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 18, 2020)

semipro said:


> Most probably don't realize the extent of water contamination that has resulted from the use of salt on roads and elsewhere.  It has polluted many drinking water supplies including wells and surface reservoirs.  in Northern VA, a primary reservoir, the Occoquan, is reaching levels of sodium that may soon require removal treatment (a very expensive option) or going to an alternative water source.
> 
> Although state departments of transportation are frequently blamed some interesting research from NH has shown that private sources such as parking lots and driveways actually contribute more than their fair share when compared to public roads.  Many private operators over apply either though bad practices or the direction of property owners that insist on seeing salt crystals on the ground even when no snow or ice may be present or forecast.  They see it as liability aversion.


I didn't know the beet juice was just as bad... I feel terrible about my job now... Pretty much every storm we put loads of salt on sidewalks and parking lots and the other trucks spread it on roads. We use sand on gravel lots, but still salt on their decks, walkways, etc. Perhaps the price of salt will increase to the point it's more economically friendly to exclusively use sand rather than salt.


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## ABMax24 (Jan 18, 2020)

Starbrightsteve said:


> Here in North central PA, the gas well fracking industry is trying to get state politicians to OK the use of the fluid that comes back up from wells to melt snow and ice . This stuff is toxic waste and all of it is radioactive. They want to use it on paved roads in winter and unpaved ones in summer( for dust controll). There are large ponds of it around this area just waiting for someone to figure a way to get rid of it. It was rejected at local wastewater treatment plants partly because of the radioactivity.



I'm assuming you are referring to produced water. I wonder what the oil companies did with it prior to the fracking of wells? Every oil or gas well ever drilled produces some water that is separated off and needs to be disposed of. Basically it is salt water with traces of hydrocarbons left behind, but I've never heard of highly radioactive produced water but I'm sure trace amounts of radioactivity are possible.

That being said here in Alberta it is forbidden for produced water to be disposed of above ground or into any waterbody. Typically it is re injected deep into the ground either into a disposal well, or used for enhanced recovery techniques by disposing into a well to help push the remaining hydrocarbons in a production zone to another well for extraction. But recently it is being recycled and used for fracks on new wells which also reduces the consumption of fresh water from above ground water bodies.


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## semipro (Jan 18, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I didn't know the beet juice was just as bad... I feel terrible about my job now... Pretty much every storm we put loads of salt on sidewalks and parking lots and the other trucks spread it on roads. We use sand on gravel lots, but still salt on their decks, walkways, etc. Perhaps the price of salt will increase to the point it's more economically friendly to exclusively use sand rather than salt.


Don't feel bad.  There are no easy answers.  Even sand has its issues.  Once it runs into streams it will land in the benthic zone (bottom layer) and "suffocate" life living there.   Sand also does nothing to enable mechanical removal by plow, which brine does well.

The best we can do with current technology is to avoid over-application and to try and recover the residuals after the winter event for reuse via a street cleaner truck. There are others (e..g. , me) that are looking at ways to recover the salt that accumulates in detention ponds and roadside ditches using salt-loving plants and other methods.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 18, 2020)

semipro said:


> Don't feel bad.  There are no easy answers.  Even sand has its issues.  Once it runs into streams it will land in the benthic zone (bottom layer) and "suffocate" life living there.   Sand also does nothing to enable mechanical removal by plow, which brine does well.



What do places do in the zones where it is too cold for salt?


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## semipro (Jan 18, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> What do places do in the zones where it is too cold for salt?


Some salts work better at lower temps than others.  Once you get too cold you deal with a persistent layer of ice/snow with applied traction enhancers like stone aggregates and vehicle studs/chains.


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## semipro (Jan 18, 2020)

Salt impacts on vehicles was mentioned but salt is also killing our bridges, concrete roads, steel superstructures etc. 
Concrete is not water proof.  Dissolved salt enters concrete and corrodes the reinforcing steel within.  The resulting rust creates extreme expansion forces within the concrete that breaks the low tensile strength concrete apart.  When you see this at the surface its commonly called spalling.


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## ABMax24 (Jan 18, 2020)

Further to this the salt attacks things like steel light poles. The city of Edmonton about 5hrs away from us had to replace thousands of light poles after a few incidents of the poles falling over into traffic due to the road salt corroding away the bases.


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## ABMax24 (Jan 18, 2020)

semipro said:


> Some salts work better at lower temps than others.  Once you get too cold you deal with a persistent layer of ice/snow with applied traction enhancers like stone aggregates and vehicle studs/chains.



Eventually once you get cold enough ice doesn't really form on the road and snow doesn't readily stick, most of the snow in these temps is blown off just by passing traffic. It also seems at sub -30 temps that the air is so dry that a thin layer of ice on the road will actually sublimate off the road, leaving dry pavement behind, it probably helps that at those temps the road is always a little warmer than the air from the heat of the ground beneath.


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## Grizzerbear (Jan 18, 2020)

I know a lot of deer get hit by motorist after every snow. I cant count the time on mornings after a storm ive nearly hit a deer that was licking salt/residue off the roadway.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 18, 2020)

Starbrightsteve said:


> Here in North central PA, the gas well fracking industry is trying to get state politicians to OK the use of the fluid that comes back up from wells to melt snow and ice . This stuff is toxic waste and all of it is radioactive. They want to use it on paved roads in winter and unpaved ones in summer( for dust controll). There are large ponds of it around this area just waiting for someone to figure a way to get rid of it. It was rejected at local wastewater treatment plants partly because of the radioactivity.




Interesting.  I knew they were injecting that stuff in wells around Youngstown and then started having seismic issues.  So now they want to spread it on roads for ice / snow control and dust control in the summer?  I'm here to tell you it don't work (for dust control).  Tried that here with brine and it lasts maybe a week and washes to the berm and kills the grass.

I bet the oil and gas lobby is extremely powerful in PA., they will probably get it rammed through anyway.  I'm all about shale gas and oil, it makes us independent of foreign supplies but sometimes I wonder at what cost.

Everything has it's downside, even burning wood, corn and pellets for heat.


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## begreen (Jan 23, 2020)

Coincidentally this article came out yesterday. Sounds like a ton of brine water comes up with fracked gas and oil and a lot of it is hot.








						America's Radioactive Secret
					

Oil-and-gas wells produce nearly a trillion gallons of toxic waste a year. An investigation shows how it could be making workers sick and contaminating communities across America




					www.rollingstone.com


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## ABMax24 (Jan 23, 2020)

begreen said:


> Coincidentally this article came out yesterday. Sounds like a ton of brine water comes up with fracked gas and oil and a lot of it is hot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reading that makes me sick. Working in the oil and gas industry I have seen many things, but in Canada we have much better worker safety, and environmental regulations than those described in this article. In almost everyone one of those situations there would be jail time to the responsible persons and multi-million dollar fines to the responsible company if this were to happen here.

How do situations like this happen in the United States of America? How does the American public allow time and time again corporate greed to overtake the need for public safety? This absolutely baffles me...


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## JimBear (Jan 23, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> Reading that makes me sick. Working in the oil and gas industry I have seen many things, but in Canada we have much better worker safety, and environmental regulations than those described in this article. In almost everyone one of those situations there would be jail time to the responsible persons and multi-million dollar fines to the responsible company if this were to happen here.
> 
> How do situations like this happen in the United States of America? How does the American public allow time and time again corporate greed to overtake the need for public safety? This absolutely baffles me...


It’s been a few years since I was in the oil patch in North Dakota but using salt water/brine wasn’t legal there. There were several drivers & company’s that got some healthy fines for illegal dumping when I was working up there. The company I worked for was just getting into hauling salt water when I left & they were super strict about dumping protocols.


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## Supersurvey (Jan 25, 2020)

What ever happened to staying home when it snows.   We live in a time of unrealistic expectations.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 25, 2020)

Supersurvey said:


> What ever happened to staying home when it snows.   We live in a time of unrealistic expectations.


Do it all the time. Only go out if ABSOLUTELY necessary.  Many who work in critical jobs dont have that luxury though.  Roads have to remain open for emergency services as well.


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