# Do you save money heating with wood?



## WiscWoody (Sep 13, 2020)

So... I’ve been thinking on why I heat with wood, is it for the money saved and if I really do save at all or is it for the ambience of the soothing fire? I thought about the thousands I’ve spent on three pro saws that all have been wood ported and the big wood splitter, numerous racks, the not so fancy Drolet  stove and the stove and chimney pipes, and soon the $3000 30X24 car port I’ll build to keep my wood stores dry. Plus all kinds of wood handling tools and can as tarps to cover the wood. Up here propane is cheap, the summer fill price has been under a buck since the winter of the big LP shortage (when I did save a bunch by burning wood) and just a bit more during the winter months. Even though most of my wood has been scrounged in our vast hardwood forests here I still think I would have spent less if I just set the thermostat on the drafty furnace and just heated the place like I did for decades when I lived in the suburbs of St Paul Minnesota. One thing I thought of though was the saws and the splitter and all are tangible things I can have and take care of instead of just paying the LP co for gas that I’ll get nothing but boring heat from.  I’m sure you get what I’m saying, chime in with your thoughts. cheers!


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## Deets (Sep 13, 2020)

Ran an OWB for years, I burn less propane in the winter than I do in the summer.


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## Deets (Sep 13, 2020)

As for the saws, splitters, and other wood toys..... 


A guy needs a hobby anyway. What better than havin a few octoberfests and cuttin/splitting wood in the fall?


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## ABMax24 (Sep 13, 2020)

I like the ambiance and feel of wood heat. It's also a justification to get outside and do something in the winter.

Natural gas is super cheap here, but I still save enough on the gas bill to pay for fuel in the truck and saw, chains, bar oil and the added wear and tear on the truck. But the stove, chimney, splitter, and wood shed are all just extra expense. Maybe I'd get a few bucks more for the house if I sold it but that's it. I like the feeling of independence it gives me though, I like having 2.5 months of heat being stored in the wood shed beside the house.

I like getting firewood, gives me an excuse to go and explore new areas.


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## gggvan (Sep 14, 2020)

an oil fill up here is ~450 an average. some folks go through 5/6 per year. we normally use 2 per year by supplementing . its adds up over the years. i think the biggest benefit is the down to the bone feel a local heat source gives you.


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## Sawset (Sep 14, 2020)

A lot of hobbies are expensive.  This is a hobby with dollar payback.  A good position to be in.  
I could say I'm saving a bunch of money, if I excluded the expenses (all of them) time and labor.
If I didn't enjoy working to scout the woods cut load split stack move store move again work the stove clean the stove, then I could just bump the stat and move on.  Far easier that way.  I like (and need) the labor, beats going to the gym and staring at a wall.  Pick an adventure and run with it, if you're the adventurous type.  I've gotten myself setup for many things over the years, from mountaineering, boat, bike, ski, woodworking, gardens, scuba, pilot, -- , wood.  They're all expensive, with a payback in some way or another.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 14, 2020)

Yes . . . without a doubt.

No cheap natural gas.
Propane here in Maine is rather expensive.
Oil isn't like it was in the old days when it was below $1 a gallon. 

I honestly did OK with just burning heating oil in my mid-1970s half decently insulated home by burning around 600 gallons of heating oil a year -- better than many folks who go through as much as 3 times that amount in their drafty farmhouses . . . but I still figure my wood stove has paid for itself.

Chainsaw: Started out with one my wife bought for me as a gift many years earlier for working around the house. I eventually replaced it with my current Jonsered. Truthfully, as a homeowner in a rural area I would own at least one chainsaw -- maybe not this size, but I would still own a saw . . . and I have resisted the urge to buy multiple saws. One is enough for me.

ATV and cart: Again . . . I've always had an ATV and cart . . . which I use for work around the house and trail riding. I would have this regardless of whether I was burning wood or not.

Wood: I have never paid a single dollar for any of my wood (unless you count the cost of gas and oil which I would say is rather small). I get most of my wood by scrounging or by cutting off a friend with a wood lot on the rare occasion.

Splitter: I guess this really is the only real expense related to burning wood (well that and the woodstove/chimney. For the money I have saved, the heat I get in the winter and most importantly to me the realization that in a power outage I will still keep the house warm the cost of the splitter is a small price for me to pay.

Woodshed: This may or may not be an additional expense. While I did purchase some wood and materials, a lot of the wood I used was repurposed from an old camp I lived in . . . and I suspect by now if I was not using this as a woodshed it would be housing my snowmobile, ATV or other stuff.

I think in terms of whether burning wood saves one money or not depends on a) the length of their burning season, b) other available heating options and c) if they can resist the urge to keep buying more "toys."


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## Gearhead660 (Sep 14, 2020)

For me, yes, all the above.  I have a big ol farm house, not efficient.  All the tools i have are used for more than just wood processing, except for the splitter which could have been depreciated completely by now.  Wood sheds were made with free materials.  I would consider wood burning a hobby, with a toasty payback.  Nothing beats the feel of wood heat....


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## peakbagger (Sep 14, 2020)

With the price of heating oil currently, I expect its an expensive hobby. 

I need to thin out my wood lot, I either leave it on the ground or use it for heat.


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## blades (Sep 14, 2020)

1st winter in this house, ran me $1600 in propane.  All the windows had collapsed panes ( Inner and outer panes touching each other) might just have as well left the windows wide open.  2nd winter all new glass inserts in windows and added wood stove, cut  propane usage to less than one 1/4 of that first winter.  Stove and flue assembly will be paid for at end of this season. 2 more winters to break even on windows.  That is a little over $7000 in savings spread over 4 years.  Saws and splitter long since paid for by savings, and of course the windows also cut the electric bills in 1/2+during the summer months . Only other thing I can change that will have a tangible effect is the water heater which currently is a standing pilot type and 20+ years old.


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## Sawset (Sep 14, 2020)

Gearhead660 said:


> All the tools i have are used for more than just wood processing, except for the splitter which could have been depreciated completely by now.





peakbagger said:


> With the price of heating oil currently, I expect its an expensive hobby.
> I need to thin out my wood lot, I either leave it on the ground or use it for heat.



Stove, chimney, saw, splitter, misc chaps wedges etc, fuel oil, labor, transportation to move it all.
If all that were taken away, and then replaced, how much to replace it. At that point, dual purpose doesn't mean it's free.
Actually it doesn't matter all that much.  Burning with wood is such a positive past time, there's no need to justify any of it.  It's a great feeling to be able to get along in the world with your two hands, stuff you've got laying around, a few specific tools, and some strategic planning to make it all happen.  And to leave the LP in the tank makes it all the more worthwhile.


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## Grizzerbear (Sep 14, 2020)

I like the security of it and it's a lifestyle I guess. I get a great sense of satisfaction out of supplying my home with its heating needs and not relying on the grid for it.......one link of the chain broken. As far as monetarily speaking I save probably 50 bucks a month burning wood instead of using heat pump.....not much.....but when an ice storm comes through and tears down electric lines that's when burning wood pays dividends. I agree with sawset though...there isn't any need to justify it. I just like the whole process.


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## WiscWoody (Sep 14, 2020)

firefighterjake said:


> I think in terms of whether burning wood saves one money or not depends on a) the length of their burning season, b) other available heating options and c) if they can resist the urge to keep buying more "toys."


Our winters are long up here As they are in Maine so that helps to recoup some of my chainsaw binge I was on. That was my big expense, four saws of which three were fairly expensive. Good for you Jake to stick to one saw. Sometimes I blame my=y splurges on my ADHD fueled compulsive buying Lol.


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## WoodBurnerInWI (Sep 14, 2020)

Eric's video sums this up better than I could:



I don't know if I will ever recover my investment in all the wood cutting stuff I've bought over the years but even if I never do, to me, the fact that I'll never have to worry about being cold in the winter is 100% worth it, hands down. I did save  few hundred on my winter heating bill this past winter since the furnace turned on less than a dozen times so I know that I am saving money at least on utilities. It seems odd to enjoy doing so much physical labor every month but I enjoy it, even if the neighbors think I'm nuts!


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## JRHAWK9 (Sep 14, 2020)

All the equipment I buy still has value and can be sold at anytime to re-coup probably close to 2/3rd's of what I paid for it.

Sending that monthly payment to the LP company....that's money which is lost forever.


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## Riff (Sep 14, 2020)

First house, yup we were running ahead and would have paid off the equipment purchased compared to the cost of heating with oil. Plus that place was rural enough that one had to be ready to go without power for days on end.

This house, can't say I care that much one way or the other. We're in a better financial situation so I'm not into counting the dollars. But that little cold snap we had this spring just after we moved in showed us how much we really missed having a fire (it's been almost 3 years). But we enjoy the process like everyone else. I do volunteer work as a sawyer so it's nice to keep up with handling a saw regularly. And looking out the back window at the stacks of wood drying is rather satisfying.


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## NickW (Sep 14, 2020)

I absolutely save big $! The house was built in 1978 with electric baseboard heat...2400sqft. With the old smoke dragon going the electric bill was $310 one cold December. The next year we did some remodeling during a warm December and couldn't run the stove. Electric bill was almost $450! That was before the last 2 or 3 rate increases. Now, 10 years later, with the new EPA stove I'll save even more. After the install in January the electric baseboard kicked in once on a super cold windy morning and one weekend we were gone... THAT'S IT 

February 2019 we installed solar panels which has cut our summer electric bills to about 1/3 of what they used to be ($160-$210 down to $50-$70) with running the ac more. With the smoke dragon December and January were $310-$350. I bet between the new stove and a little help from the solar panels we won't hit $200... Without either I bet it'd be $500-$600. And that's with thermostats set at 64. That EPA stove keeps the lower level rec room where the stove is at 74-78, upstairs living room at 70-72 and the bedrooms at 66-68.

There is nothing worse than the wife's cold toes and butt against you in bed. NO MORE


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## WiscWoody (Sep 14, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> All the equipment I buy still has value and can be sold at anytime to re-coup probably close to 2/3rd's of what I paid for it.
> 
> Sending that monthly payment to the LP company....that's money which is lost forever.


I agree, like I said in the post I’d rather have something that‘s mine that I use to heat my house that I bought from the money I’ve saved by burning wood.


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## Gearhead660 (Sep 15, 2020)

Filled the LP tank last year before heating season.  Just went out and checked it, still half full.  Heat and DHW using it.  Before heating with wood, it would need to be filled every 6 weeks or so during the coldest months.  Definite savings, but I'm not going to try to figure out how much.


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## Sawset (Sep 15, 2020)

When the place was first built here, we had a 500gallon tank put in like everyone else around.  Two years later, after the wood stove was in, they came back and said I wasn't using it enough, and needed to change it out for a reduced size.  100gallon tank now, filled 75% twice a year, for hot water and a few hours of furnace time.  Electric bill is around $50/mo, with 20% of that line charges, not kw charges.  During the 2013 sub zero weather, the old farm house back home was consuming a 500gal tank every 2-3wks, and the electric bill shot up from all the blower motor time.  It is nice to be disengaged from all that.  Wood is cheaper than LP, even if paying cordwood purchase prices.  It just takes labor to feed the stove at that point.


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## WiscWoody (Sep 15, 2020)

I used to lease a 500g tank for a dollar a year when I heated exclusively with LP but they wanted to Jack that up to $80 a year when I started to heat with wood and didn’t use enough propane for the Cheap lease any more so as soon as I got the letter saying so I called them and bought the tank. it’s better that way anyways so I can shop around for a better price but they are all generally at The same price within a dime a gallon. Tank owners also pay 5 cents less a gallon.


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## Sawset (Sep 15, 2020)

WiscWoody said:


> I used to lease a 500g tank for a dollar a year when I heated exclusively with LP but they wanted to Jack that up to $80 a year when I started to heat with wood and didn’t use enough propane for the Cheap lease any more so as soon as I got the letter saying so I called them and bought the tank. it’s better that way anyways so I can shop around for a better price but they are all generally at The same price within a dime a gallo. Tank owners also pay 5 cents less a gallon.


How much to buy the tank?


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## WiscWoody (Sep 15, 2020)

Sawset said:


> How much to buy the tank?


I think it was $700


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 20, 2020)

At the house, no.  Natural gas is very cheap.  


At the cabin, yes.   It's just propane in 100lb tanks, electricity,  or wood.


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## WiscWoody (Sep 20, 2020)

EatenByLimestone said:


> At the house, no.  Natural gas is very cheap.
> 
> 
> At the cabin, yes.   It's just propane in 100lb tanks, electricity,  or wood.


Yes filling 100lb tanks is more expensive than filling large tanks and electric, we’ll let’s just say... yowza! $$$


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## Alpine1 (Sep 20, 2020)

Heating with the oil furnace would cost around 3.500 € per winter. Wood costs me about 13 € for TWO winters. The math is simple enough. In two winters I saved so much money that, at the end of this coming cold season, the break even point will be reached and for both stoves and related paraphernalia. One more winter and the splitter and saw(s) will pay for themselves and leave significant savings. From winter 5 on, 3000+ euros in my pocket every year.
Difficult to beat wood heating!


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## Medic21 (Sep 20, 2020)

It all depends on how you look at the numbers.  Install for my OWB is an 8 year payback based on average price of propane.  But, that’s not including the $6k I have in chainsaws, I’m a bit of a snob and will only buy pro saws.  $1500 for the wood hauler, $3000 for the trailer, $999 for the splitter, axes, mauls, and everything else.  

And, time. Every hour I spend cutting, splitting, and stacking is $50 I didn’t make in my shop.

So, big picture, no. There isn’t a savings heating with wood.


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## EatenByLimestone (Sep 20, 2020)

Swept the chimney today.  Nothing exciting.  

Well, I did find something new... dumped the sooteater box out.  Must be 10 years I've been using it now, and found an instruction packet!   Did anybody know it came with instructions?


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## johneh (Sep 20, 2020)

I have heated my home with wood for the last 40 years 
up until the beginning of this month, I also had oil.
2new furnaces installed cost 12000 Canadian dollars
In 1979 I bought 2 tanks of oil burnt that very quickly 
1 more fill up added a wood furnace started to burn wood
 off my farm have continued to burn wood from the fence
 rows and off a 200 acre bush lot I bought. I figure that in the 
last 40 years oil would have cost me over 100 thousand dollars.
I have no idea what the total cost of wood products would be 
But even with property taxes, transportation,gas , oil, chain saws
, and related bits and pieces it would be a whole lot less plus the 
enjoyment of the work and the fire. I didn't add in the cost of the 
bush lot because the land is worth 5 times what I paid for it now


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## begreen (Sep 20, 2020)

At this point now that we are buying wood, probably not.  It cost us $900 for 3 cords of doug fir. When we started out, the savings was substantial over the poorly installed propane furnace system. That was replaced in 2006. With the heat pump able to do  a lot of the work at a reasonable cost, the savings is now quite reduced. But we love wood heat and the glow of a nice fire. That also has value.


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## NickW (Sep 21, 2020)

Begreen, that suck's! I assume that's cut and split...?

I luckily/unluckily live in an area that has been hard hit by EAB. Right now I can get all the free wood I can haul from tree service storage yards, plus folks who know I'm a burner are often asking me to haul wood off... There are swamps and woods everywhere here that have thousands of dead ash standing. 

Before I found my free sources, I could get a dumpster load with 5 cord of mostly ash logs delivered for $500. A few years back I got 5 cord of logs (mostly oak) from a farmer for $300... But I have the ability to haul it, not everyone does... and around here most folks aren't uptight about running a chainsaw on their property to get stuff down to manageable size. They're just happy to get it gone. The golden days of woodburning here!


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## firefighterjake (Sep 21, 2020)

WiscWoody said:


> I used to lease a 500g tank for a dollar a year when I heated exclusively with LP but they wanted to Jack that up to $80 a year when I started to heat with wood and didn’t use enough propane for the Cheap lease any more so as soon as I got the letter saying so I called them and bought the tank. it’s better that way anyways so I can shop around for a better price but they are all generally at The same price within a dime a gallon. Tank owners also pay 5 cents less a gallon.



I have a much smaller tank -- a pig -- or maybe they call it a piglet which I use for domestic hot water and the oven  . . . in any case, buying a new tank was one of the best decisions I made. There is the upfront costs, but the long term savings with the cheaper propane was a huge difference in price.


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## WiscWoody (Sep 21, 2020)

begreen said:


> At this point now that we are buying wood, probably not. It cost us $900 for 3 cords of doug fir.


Wow, that’s a lot for that amount of wood. I won’t tell you how much red oak I got for just $50 more Unless you ask.


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## Dix (Sep 21, 2020)

At current oil prices ($1.30 a gallon for 200), I'm breaking even. Currently using 600 gal a year for partial heat & HW.

BUT, for the past  10 years, I am wayyyy ahead.  Oil was $4 a gallon when I installed the PE, paid for itself the first year. The next year oil was $4 a gallon & I installed the 13, paid for itself in 3 months. House was using 200 gallons a month of oil from Nov - March.

OB covers 800 SF of this joint, and the PE covers the rest. The 13 can heat the lower level 800 SF, but with a 6 hour burn time,max . The PE, rated for 2000 SF easily  handles 1200 SF on the worst day or night. Lower level heat on 62F from November through March, at least.

The splitter is a wash, paid $500 for it 7 years ago, and the F250, we won't count because I bought it in 2005 to pull the horse trailer


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## Bad LP (Sep 21, 2020)

When I worked the math LP was stupid money when the wood boiler bug hit. We already had 2 wood stoves but burning them didn’t allow the warm floors that was already spent and that really was more important. 
I’ve spent a lot of money buying tractor stuff to make life easier as I age. I just hope I live long enough to break even!! 
I like the outdoors in New England so I get that benefit.


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## Prof (Sep 21, 2020)

Well, on the surface, I would appear to have some expensive equipment and spend a bunch of time processing wood. If that is the measure of value, then wood is expensive. But that is only part of the story... I hate going to the gym, so I don't--but people still think I lift. Apparently hauling and splitting (and occasional felling) by hand keeps me in some shape. I cook most of my meals in the fall and winter by wood--from Sunday eggs to the Thanksgiving turkey. Plus, cooking gourmet foods by wood gives me another hobby--the wood actually make the gourmet food much easier to pull off. If it wasn't for processing 4-5 cords per year, I'd probably be quite rotund--but I'm not. Then there is the time that I spend with my daughters splitting, stacking and burning wood. I can't really put a price on this and I suspect that they won't be able to either. Oh, and my house is far warmer than most--in more than one way!


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## johneh (Sep 22, 2020)

Prof said:


> Apparently hauling and splitting (and occasional felling) by hand keeps me in some shape.


Yes but isn't round a shape ??
sorry just couldn't resist


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## Zack R (Sep 22, 2020)

One thing worth mentioning is that with wood heat you can have the house at a comfortable 70-73F even during the coldest part of winter (below 0F). My heat pump would be running 24x7 on auxiliary heat to maintain those temps and racking up the electric bill while doing so.


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## begreen (Sep 23, 2020)

NickW said:


> Begreen, that suck's! I assume that's cut and split...?


Cut and split and delivered, along with a ton of splitter trash.



Zack R said:


> One thing worth mentioning is that with wood heat you can have the house at a comfortable 70-73F even during the coldest part of winter (below 0F). My heat pump would be running 24x7 on auxiliary heat to maintain those temps and racking up the electric bill while doing so.



Yes, like with wood stoves there are lot of factors. We're warmer than up in the mountains and live in a mild climate so technically our heat pump could handle almost all of our winter temps except for 2-3 weeks without switching to resistance heating. It's set for 25ºF as the crossover point.  Modern units can cover 100% of the heating load in our area easily.   My wife's cold tolerance gets worse every year and I like the fire view, so for now we heat primarily with wood. We'll always have a woodstove for backup heat at least, but it's possible that in a while we may be running the HP more and burning only one cord instead of 3.


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## thecoalman (Sep 29, 2020)

If you are in the northeast amd really want to save, sell the wood and buy coal. LOL


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## xman23 (Oct 8, 2020)

For me it was the wife wanting a fireplace in the cabin, and me stove. It was never going to be fireplace, but a few weeks of fireplace / stove shopping. Zeroed in on the green Oslo and never looked back.

So the the BTU were going up the chimney, and now we heat the house. Saving money? maybe by now


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## tlc1976 (Oct 9, 2020)

Burning wood was the only way I survived financially in the old house. 21 years ago I started out burning about 800 gallons of propane a year but it was under a dollar a gallon. I was also married and doing pretty well. 

After she left she took me to the cleaners in child court. Almost no money left for anything. Ate from the food bank. Collected and sold scrap for extra money and often used stuff from those piles. While using up what propane I had the furnace cracked the heat exchanger so good time to switch to wood. The house already had a woodstove which I had used occasionally for ambience. I also grew up burning wood for survival.

I bought a box of 3 Poulan saw parts and made 2 running ones.  Was given an axe for splitting which I did myself but occasionally would get to use a splitter. Already had a 5 lb sledge to help split. Or use the saw. Replaced the axe handle once. I already had a trailer. I cut for free at my dad’s or later on at the father in laws when I got remarried. He gave me a Turbo Craftsman which was largely compatible with my Poulan parts. First year I ran out of wood so I sneaked some downed ironwood from the woods behind my house with a hand saw to get me through. Nobody noticed. After that I really stocked up and got a year ahead. I just stacked it outside with fence poles to hold the ends, covered with tarps I scrounged.

10 years later I finally got in a better predicament and was able to move to a better house and switched to pellets. I now own the woods and could cut right here and burn wood if I wanted but I don’t miss the survival lifestyle and bugs in the house and higher fire risk. I don’t mind paying for the cleanliness and consistency of pellets, and I have a generator to keep the stove going. If I absolutely had to I could go back.


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## Jason H (Oct 9, 2020)

I just installed an insert and plan on heating the house with wood this winter.  I reached out to local arborists who didn't mind dumping loads of wood on my driveway when they were doing a local job.  One guy asked for 100$ for a trailer full which was a nice option when the wood preping season's ending and you need wood then and there. So besides the cost of the insert I'm in at about 100$ for 10 face cords this year. Last year we spent about 1000 bucks heating the house (cheap Quebec electricity).  Next year I might rent a splitter though so in the end I might be saving 600-1000$


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## kennyp2339 (Oct 11, 2020)

I save in more ways then one, money wise its prob near $1,600 a year on heating (oil heat) but I also save money by moving around with cutting and splitting, plus its a nice hobby to have.


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## vwmike (Oct 16, 2020)

Also do it more out of a hobby than need.  We moved into our house 8 years ago and it had a vista insert in the basement. Hadn’t burned wood in 15 years since I lived at home with mom and dad, where that was our primary heat source.   Every year I probably  spend what I save,  buying chainsaws,  renovating my hearth, couple stoves later, this year built a hydraulic splitter. Like someone posted above all this stuff has value and  could be sold off and most of my costs would be recouped back.

The best part of it all is having the house at 72 all through the season and having no guilt  about it.  Once your used to radiant heat, the cycling of a forced air furnace drives me nuts and feels drafty. This also keeps the wife happy and she never gives me a hard time about the wood outside and all the time I spend on it....


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## awicherr (Nov 25, 2020)

Money saving? Maybe a little due to having a farm house built in 1900. But it is insulated well and we shrink the windows in the fall. My reason for burning wood. I don't like writing those checks mid winter when heating fuel is double what i pay for in mid summer when i fill it for basically pennies. The reason i burn wood  I know i will never have to choose if i am eating raimen for a month while my normal month grocery bill is spent on fuel . Its nice to know you arent at the mercy of supply and demand.  Secondary wood furnace was already here when i bought the house. Already had a chainsaw, axe, maul, wedges.  Had them growing up when i moved out of my parents had to buy them open pit cooking being my favorite past time had to have them.  Lastly when its cold out side and you have been in several layers all day and it cold its nice to come home  and the house is 78 and you arnt watching the float on the fuel tank bob up and down... (a bit warm for me but happy wife happy life)


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## Dobish (Dec 11, 2020)

100% yes. My hydraulic splitter paid for itself in the first season. We watched our combined electric/gas bill drop by more than $150/month.  That was our justification for buying the solar panels that we put on our addition, as our savings would continue to add up. The electric portion of my bill has not been over $14 (stupid fees) since we installed the solar. Right now, I am sitting on a $500 credit that unless I install an AC unit, a super computer, or more electric heaters, I will never get through it.... Maybe electric car 

Not only that, but i don't have any gym memberships (not that I did anyway), our house is warmer, and it always gives me something to mess around with (saw, splitter, blue ikea bags, backyard distractions, slivers, and the list goes on)

One more thing, my friends all know I burn with wood now, and will randomly drop off trailer fulls or offer me their trees when they come down!  I'm currently sitting on 3-4 Years supply, which is right where I need to be!


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 11, 2020)

I recommend getting the super computer.    More and more people will be getting air conditioning and electric cars.   No big deal.   Not many will have a super computer in the basement.    That might heat the house too!


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## illini81 (Dec 11, 2020)

I think it all depends on perspective.

If you look at heating with wood as an *investment*, it is hard for me to see it as a good one.  There are some people who might be outliers, but even in extreme cases, if you used your primary heating system and just worked a second job instead of splitting wood, you very likely might come out better financially.  

If you look at heating with wood as a *hobby*, it's pretty hard to beat.  There aren't many hobbies which can actually save you money.

And then there's the question of valuing some of the more abstract benefits - how do you assign value to the luxury of an excessively warm house?


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## Dobish (Dec 11, 2020)

illini81 said:


> I think it all depends on perspective.
> 
> If you look at heating with wood as an *investment*, it is hard for me to see it as a good one.  There are some people who might be outliers, but even in extreme cases, if you used your primary heating system and just worked a second job instead of splitting wood, you very likely might come out better financially.
> 
> ...


I don't know about excessively warm.  Parts of mine are still freezing,  but my house is like a Lincoln log met a Lego that joined with a some constructs and a parking garage.  Maybe i should spend the money I'm saving on a new furnace


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## WiscWoody (Dec 13, 2020)

Dobish said:


> 100% yes. My hydraulic splitter paid for itself in the first season. We watched our combined electric/gas bill drop by more than $150/month.  That was our justification for buying the solar panels that we put on our addition, as our savings would continue to add up. The electric portion of my bill has not been over $14 (stupid fees) since we installed the solar. Right now, I am sitting on a $500 credit that unless I install an AC unit, a super computer, or more electric heaters, I will never get through it.... Maybe electric car
> 
> Not only that, but i don't have any gym memberships (not that I did anyway), our house is warmer, and it always gives me something to mess around with (saw, splitter, blue ikea bags, backyard distractions, slivers, and the list goes on)
> 
> One more thing, my friends all know I burn with wood now, and will randomly drop off trailer fulls or offer me their trees when they come down!  I'm currently sitting on 3-4 Years supply, which is right where I need to be!


I Wander what a Tesla power wall would cost and if you could go off grid then Since the power company only pays you the wholesale rate for the power you feed back to them in a grid-tied system you could save it for later in the batteries and not pay the hook up fee to the power company. I‘d look into getting into solar but being in the north I’m not sold on it as of yet. There’s very little solar powered homes and businesses up here compared to wha I’ve seen in the SW and even Northern California.


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## ABMax24 (Dec 13, 2020)

WiscWoody said:


> I Wander what a Tesla power wall would cost and if you could go off grid then? simce The power company only pays you the wholesale rate for the power you feed back to them in in grid-tied system you could save it for later in the batteries and not pay the hook up fee to the power company. I lick around getting into solar but being in the north I’m not sold on it as of yet. There’s very little solar powered homes and businesses up here compared to wha I’ve seen in the SW and even Northern California.



What you're seeing there is also a reflection of local grants, rebates, and feed in tariffs promoting solar electricity.

According to this map I receive very similar amounts of solar energy as you do, and my house is net-zero for electricity with my system.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 13, 2020)

Hopefully the next administration will extend and maybe even enhance the solar incentives for the next few years and then I could look into it more. Right now I’m updating the house I bought two years ago and I want to build a pole shed so that will tap me out for cash and I make less than $20k a year so there’s not a lot to play with. Here’s a map of the US solar irradiance.


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## NickW (Dec 13, 2020)

I live right on the border of the 2 lightest yellow and put in solar panels Feb of 2019. Projected break even point of solar is about 10 years out assuming 3% rate increases. After that I'll be money ahead. Lifetime of system savings is about 40k.


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## Dobish (Dec 13, 2020)

NickW said:


> I live right on the border of the 2 lightest yellow and put in solar panels Feb of 2019. Projected break even point of solar is about 10 years out assuming 3% rate increases. After that I'll be money ahead. Lifetime of system savings is about 40k.


I'm looking at a 5 to 7 year break even point.


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## NickW (Dec 13, 2020)

Dobish said:


> I'm looking at a 5 to 7 year break even point.


Yeah, your probably at least 3 solar zones better than me. It's all good though... I don't plan on moving, don't want to deal with my years of hoarding. Kids can when I get carried out!


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## WiscWoody (Dec 13, 2020)

My electric bill is around $40 a month average so that’s not too bad I think and the good part to Livingston up here it that I’m in a hardwood forest and scrounging for fire wood is easy and I can be pretty picky on what I take lately. There’s some nice birch down the road that I’m not taking now and of course tons of poplar even right across the street that down with no branches thanks to the power company so heating the house is cheap. I’ve heard from friends in Texas and Arizona Of $400 summer AC bills. That’s crazy to me.


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## NickW (Dec 13, 2020)

My Dec & Jan electric bills would be $500-600 with the baseboards set at 64. I burn, keep the house around 70, electric bill around $200. Everything is electric, no NG or propane.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 13, 2020)

NickW said:


> My Dec & Jan electric bills would be $500-600 with the baseboards set at 64. I burn, keep the house around 70, electric bill around $200. Everything is electric, no NG or propane.


Wow, an all electric house up here in Wisconsin isn’t good especially since LP here in the Midwest is fairly cheap.


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## NickW (Dec 13, 2020)

WiscWoody said:


> Wow, an all electric house up here in Wisconsin isn’t good especially since LP here in the Midwest is fairly cheap.


Yeah, house was built in '78 by an electrician. Whole different era... Which is why I burn and have solar panels.


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## peakbagger (Dec 13, 2020)

The big push now in "green" areas is to ban any new natural gas connections to new homes and have all the heating and appliances electric. What goes around comes around. The concept is that the grid is going to go green quickly. No doubt there will be some sort of carbon taxes on fossil like heating oil and propane to be equalize the costs. Since wood is decentralized with a very dysfunctional supply chain and some green attributes I expect that will be the last one to be taxed. 

The reasons for the prior incentives were that solar was not competitive, with the major drop in prices its competitive without subsidies if a homeowner does the normal conservation work up front.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 13, 2020)

NickW said:


> Yeah, house was built in '78 by an electrician. Whole different era... Which is why I burn and have solar panels.


My small house was built in 1978 also. The houses third furnace was just put in last year shortly after I bought the place and it’s only a 45,000 BTU unit but I mostly heat with the scrounge wood. Good thing you are too or like you said your heating bills would be crazy high. In the 26 months I’ve been here I’ve spent over $40,000 on updates already, mostly on new windows, siding and a new kitchen and bathroom. The furnace and and added insulation I got from a energy program.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Dec 13, 2020)

I had gas installed this past January and got off LP. I had 2 gas fireplaces installed. 
 My heater is an oil fired boiler.  I use the gas fireplaces every so often. Like this past weekend when its 60 out side. I dont pay for wood.  That being said Its definitely cheaper to have free wood and take the money you would spend on oil and purchase things for yourself.  Like saws and stuff. Once you send the check to big oil you only read about there record profits and there's nothing for you. I'm surrounded by wood and have a ton of access to it. The other part is that when its cold out there no other feeling then walking through the door and having 500 lbs of cast at 550 degrees... it feels warm


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## WiscWoody (Dec 13, 2020)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> I had gas installed this past January and got off LP. I had 2 gas fireplaces installed.
> My heater is an oil fired boiler.  I use the gas fireplaces every so often. Like this past weekend when its 60 out side. I dont pay for wood.  That being said Its definitely cheaper to have free wood and take the money you would spend on oil and purchase things for yourself.  Like saws and stuff. Once you send the check to big oil you only read about there record profits and there's nothing for you. I'm surrounded by wood and have a ton of access to it. The other part is that when its cold out there no other feeling then walking through the door and having 500 lbs of cast at 550 degrees... it feels warm


That’s my philosophy, burn scrounged free wood then buy some nice tools of the trade ie. a few (3) pro ported saws and a nice splitter and be for-the-most-part off the grid for your heat.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Dec 13, 2020)

WiscWoody said:


> That’s my philosophy, burn scrounged free wood then buy some nice tools of the trade ie. a few (3) pro ported saws and a nice splitter and be for-the-most-part off the grid for your heat.



Actually I am pretty much off grid... I am well and septic. I have a large solar system.. 52 panels.. Im ahead on electric I always run a credit and I make like 4k a years in serec.. I heat my home with wood and occasionally.. Ill burn gas if I need a break or its to warm to run the stove..  I like my land and love my toys.. Its a great feeling that 95% of my money goes to me and not to the utility companies and big oil


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## WiscWoody (Dec 13, 2020)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> Actually I am pretty much off grid... I am well and septic. I have a large solar system.. 52 panels.. Im ahead on electric I always run a credit and I make like 4k a years in serec.. I heat my home with wood and occasionally.. Ill burn gas if I need a break or its to warm to run the stove..  I like my land and love my toys.. Its a great feeling that 95% of my money goes to me and not to the utility companies and big oil


Nice! and 52 panels, I’ve never seen a private array that big as the bigger ones around here are half that size. I envy your setup! How about a photo of your array?


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## WiscWoody (Dec 14, 2020)

If I do a solar project I think I could install it myself since I have wired two of my own houses and I was in facilities maintenance for many years and oh... my best friend is a long time electrician lol. I think I would just need six panels if each panels peak wattage is 300 or so. Also I’d likes install the panels on a pedestal in my backyard.


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## NickW (Dec 14, 2020)

WiscWoody said:


> If I do a solar project I think I could install it myself since I have wired two of my own houses and I was in facilities maintenance for many years and oh... my best friend is a long time electrician lol. I think I would just need six panels if each panels peak wattage is 300 or so. Also I’d likes install the panels on a pedestal in my backyard.


If you do, make sure your utility company will make the connection on a DIY and you have a permit. It's not rocket science; but besides the panels there are optimizers, an inverter and a dual meter pedestal.

I wanted to do a pedestal system; but the cost was much higher due to excavation, footings and structure. Big pro to the pedestal is you can install the panels at a steeper angle to get better production than my 4 pitch roof. During the summer I have days of over 50kwh production. During December & early January I can't hit 20kwh in a day and those 2 months are only around 300kwh. July is over 1mwh.


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## peakbagger (Dec 14, 2020)

WiscWoody said:


> If I do a solar project I think I could install it myself since I have wired two of my own houses and I was in facilities maintenance for many years and oh... my best friend is a long time electrician lol. I think I would just need six panels if each panels peak wattage is 300 or so. Also I’d likes install the panels on a pedestal in my backyard.



My guess is you need more than six panels as they only put out their rated output on a very rare day where the sun is oriented directly perpendicular with the sun, there are zero hihg level clouds and the temps are not too high.

This solar calculator is easy to use and universally regarded as pretty close on long term average production.  PVWatts Calculator (nrel.gov) 

This book is pretty much the standard recommendation before spending money on solar, there are older versions floating around on the internet

Solar Power Your Home For Dummies: DeGunther, Rik: 8601400007686: Amazon.com: Books 

I DIYed 3 systems solo and pretty well rebuilt one from close to scratch. Its not rocket science but there are some details that an electrician would be handy to have around when it comes to connecting it up to the main panel. The biggest PITA that I have skipped is configuring the communications gateway on the inverter to the get it on the internet. I hear a lot of folks complaining about this. I dont have that capability or want it so I need to read my production meter monthly to sell my SRECS. Another potential hassle is if you have active building inspections, many inspectors want an electrician to do the work and 95% of the installation is mechanical in nature so you are paying  premium for an electrician to hire a a couple of apprentices to do the grunt work.


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## peakbagger (Dec 14, 2020)

NickW said:


> If you do, make sure your utility company will make the connection on a DIY and you have a permit. It's not rocket science; but besides the panels there are optimizers, an inverter and a dual meter pedestal.
> 
> I wanted to do a pedestal system; but the cost was much higher due to excavation, footings and structure. Big pro to the pedestal is you can install the panels at a steeper angle to get better production than my 4 pitch roof. During the summer I have days of over 50kwh production. During December & early January I can't hit 20kwh in a day and those 2 months are only around 300kwh. July is over 1mwh.


One of my systems is a pole mount with a manually adjustable angle. I change the angle four times a year. Even at 30 degree pitch it still get snow cover but melts off a lot quicker than my roof array. There is 2 KW of panels on it. The picture is its spring and fall setting, In summer its flatter and in winter its steeper. I designed it to be balanced so I can change the angle in about 5 minutes.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Dec 14, 2020)

WiscWoody said:


> Nice! and 52 panels, I’ve never seen a private array that big as the bigger ones around here are half that size. I envy your setup! How about a photo of your array?


my panels are roof top so I dont have a pic. I did roof top because with a system this big I would have needed a variance to do a ground install.. and I truly believe I wasn't going to get it..I produce 20k yearly.. My hot tub eats alot in winter..


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## peakbagger (Dec 14, 2020)

So here is my roof mount and my wall mount. The wall mount is 660 watts, (its my original system about 20 years old)  the roof mount is around 2100 watts. The two panels that sit up off the roof on the left are solar hot water panels with a DC solar panel that runs the circulator pump. I tipped it up from roof angle after a few seasons of operation as tipping it up give me more heat in the spring and fall and less in the summer. The roof panels are fixed and get covered with snow for days if not weeks in winter. The wall mounts are adjustable angle. It requires a hydralic floor jack and wooden beam to move it. Takes me about 15 minutes.

My 12K minisplit is on the right. I run it on surplus net metered solar. I went into the winter with 2500 KW to play with.


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## Dobish (Dec 18, 2020)

This was before the concrete path and the gardens, but it was one of the only pictures you can actually see the panels. Our main house has 2 7 panels, but they are pretty much blocked by a tree.


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## begreen (Dec 20, 2020)

Our panels are ground and pole mount. We have a tall redwood on the south side of the house that nixed the option of putting them on the house.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Dec 20, 2020)

Here are some really terrible pictures of some of my roof mount.. I would be better if I had a drone pic


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## mcdougy (Dec 20, 2020)

What is a reasonable projected cost to set up a solar whole house system? Selling it back to the utility does not need to be factored in unless its not reasonable to do so?  Let's use a new ranch 2300 sqft house with a well, forced air furnace, a/c ,  60 gallon hot water, and 4 occupants?  The system goal would be enough solar to not need the utility co.pany at all.  Detroit Michigan  location.


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## peakbagger (Dec 21, 2020)

It really depends on  a lot of factors. If its an existing building, get your utility bills out for the last several years and figure out your yearly usage in Kilowatt Hours (KWh). With a new house you do not have the bills so you need to fill in some details on the ranch. Is it an energy efficient home?.  If you build a Passivhaus or  Pretty Good House which are both the high end in energy efficient you pay more up front but the yearly energy costs are much lower with minimal heating and cooling that normally is covered with surplus net metered solar (yes even in Detroit). Also inportant is how good is your solar exposure. Ideally you need a lot that is facing south with minimal shading from 8 AM to 4 PM. Having a roof pitch roughly equal to your latitude 42 degrees in Detroit. That is capecod  roof pitch, with a ranch you need more roof space and more panels to deal with less than optimal pitch. If you go with ground mount you can set the panels to optimum angle but on flat land shading can be a bit more of issue. We would also need to know if you want hot water heating, air conditioning and heating covered by the system. A new home would have a heat pump hot water heater and cold climate minisplits with some sort of backup for very cold conditions where a minisplit is marginally efficient or outright unable heat the place.

A big assumption is does the local utility have net metering? and what type of net metering is available?. Is it the gold standard version where you can carry your surplus forever or is it a low budget version with a yearly reset date where the utility resets the meter to zero and hopefully pays you a pittance for your hard earned surplus. The reset date also factors in. A reset  date in the middle of the winter means you cant carry as much surplus generation from the summer as you could with no reset date.

So your type of house, usage and net metering details all can substantially shift the size of the array. A rough range is probably 4 KW on the low end and 10 KW on the high end. Note the difference between KWh and KW. Panels only produce power when the sun is out and rarely do the panels put out the nameplate rating so you now need to go to a computer program to simulate your installation. Search for PVWATTS on the web and plug in your location and array data and it will spit out your monthly and yearly generation.  So one opportunity is spend more money up front on an energy efficient home and appliances which reduces the power usage of the home for the long term or spend more on PV panels to cover the extra energy use for less energy efficient home.

So here is the number you probably want , roll the drums, $2 to $3 per watt installed, not including Federal, state and local incentives. If it was tract type development where all the homes got systems, it could be under $2 a watt. So on the low end $8,000 for 4KW system to $30,000 for a 10 KWh custom system.  The federal tax credit ratchets down to 22% next year before it goes away, so a 2021 install gets 22% back from the fed. A good place to look up state and local incentives is here  https://www.dsireusa.org/

Personally my smaller home farther north (close to 8000 heating degree days versus 4100 in Detroit)  in a colder zone covers all my electric power use, minimal cooling and  supplements my heating down to nighttime temps of around 25 degrees.  I have 4.6KW of panels installed. I havent paid for power except for a service charge to be connected to the grid for over 5 years and burn 3 to 4 cords a year of wood for the balance of my heating.  I sell my solar credits and that just about covers my monthly service feeI have electric appliances so no gas or propane.  I do have a solar hot water system but these days its better to buy a heat pump hot water heater and put up a few extra panels on the roof.  I actually have 3 arrays of different types and sizes. The price of solar has dropped since I installed my arrays but I designed and installed them myself so I offset some of the higher costs of doing them earlier. As far as I am concerned the money spent is money in the bank. I run econo boxes most of the time and run them longer than a typical car owner so my solar panels probably cost far less than what most folks spend on truck payments.

A good resource is Solar Power your Home for Dummies, there are older versions on line for free if you look around on the web or just buy the newer second edition.

A big consideration with system size is what type of vehicle you plan to drive in 5 to 10 years. Most predictions are it will probably be electric . That means you may want a larger system to cover recharging the vehicle. Most predictions to deal with climate change will be a shift to electric away from fossil fuels to onsite solar power or renewable grid power.


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## CaptSpiff (Dec 22, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> It really depends on  a lot of factors. .....



Once again Peak, you provide the Gold Standard as a reference to home PV!
And thanks for the link to the PVWatts calculator in the prior post.


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## peakbagger (Dec 22, 2020)

Glad you liked it, I have talked several folks through solar installs plus did 4 of them myself. The only folks I run into that wish they never went solar are the ones that bought systems from high pressure solar firms and got conned into creative financing. Inevitably they said they didnt understand what they were getting into and trusted the company and the salesmen. The fundamentals arent that hard and most are commonsense and once someone understands them, it unlikely they would sign up for those high pressure deals.

 I used to drive along a street in Mass on the way to project and it was always interesting to see a stretch of the street where Vivent solar did a bunch of installs. The road was north to south yet the panels on different homes faced east and west and many have large hardwoods blocking the panels. I expect the salesguys got great commissions but they are the only one smiling.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 22, 2020)

My neighbors have a Vivent system.   Most of their system faces West, but is shielded by a couple spruce trees.  I think they are happy.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Dec 23, 2020)

I'm glad I went solar. Having no electric bill has been great. I am basically utility free. Really the only regret I have is not doing it sooner..


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## Riff (Jan 13, 2021)

So not a complete showing of savings as we don't know the previous residents heating habits but...went to check the oil level in our tank. We had approx 275 gallons left (the water is also heated with the oil) and the oil company estimated based on the previous residents habits that we should have had 75 gallons left. So, 200 gallons difference or about $445 difference over the trends from the last 5 years. Those trends are also skewed by last year not having had water running and the heat being only high enough to keep the house from freezing while it was for sale.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 13, 2021)

Riff said:


> So not a complete showing of savings as we don't know the previous residents heating habits but...went to check the oil level in our tank. We had approx 275 gallons left (the water is also heated with the oil) and the oil company estimated based on the previous residents habits that we should have had 75 gallons left. So, 200 gallons difference or about $445 difference over the trends from the last 5 years. Those trends are also skewed by last year not having had water running and the heat being only high enough to keep the house from freezing while it was for sale.



I wouldn't guage a savings on anyone else. The savings would be if you didn't use you wood stove and what your oil consumption would be. Say you like your house at 72.  your savings would be the oil saved to keep your house at that temperature.  Its really impossible to go by how someone else  lived.. maybe they liked the house at 68.. or cooler than how you keep your home now..
My savings is more than what I originally thought.. Before my wood stove I kept my house at 68 during the day and 65 at night.. now my home is in the low 70s during the day and upper 60s at night.. this would cost me even more in oil and creating even more savings


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## Jason H (Jan 14, 2021)

So the verdict just came in for me. Just received the power bill from Nov 9th to Jan 9th. (Our heating system is electric) and by using mainly free wood, except a quick blast from the furnace in the morning, our bill is 500 bucks less. And for those that want to get specific, the average temp was only 3 degrees warmer this year. Looking st at least 1000 dollars in savings this year I think


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 15, 2021)

Jason H said:


> So the verdict just came in for me. Just received the power bill from Nov 9th to Jan 9th. (Our heating system is electric) and by using mainly free wood, except a quick blast from the furnace in the morning, our bill is 500 bucks less. And for those that want to get specific, the average temp was only 3 degrees warmer this year. Looking st at least 1000 dollars in savings this year I think



 Saving is Saving  no matter how you look at it and Saving 1k is a great start. how long of a burn time do you get from your stove. Is this your first year burning


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## Jason H (Jan 15, 2021)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> Saving is Saving  no matter how you look at it and Saving 1k is a great start. how long of a burn time do you get from your stove. Is this your first year burning



Usable heat, I'd say 5-6 hours. Coals for a relight maybe 10 hours. My fireplace is in a corner room of the house so I need more heat output than if it was in the center of my house. Yep this is my first year burning. I've always loved cutting and splitting wood and now that I see a savings I'll love it even more.  I dont see myself being able to save too much more money. I brought my power bill down to 180 bucks for two months,  which is similar to summer bills so there's not much room to save more


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## peakbagger (Jan 15, 2021)

I must admit, with the relatively warm weather up in northern NH I have taken a break from running my boiler for the last few days and running my mini split for heat. I have a bunch of power credits from my solar production so its free heat. Its definitely not as good heat, my boiler is in the basement and obviously radiates heat into the floors so I have warmer floors when I am heating with wood. The minisplit is just heating air and moving it around so it tends to stratify. Still its nice break until January temps go back to normal.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 15, 2021)

Jason H said:


> Usable heat, I'd say 5-6 hours. Coals for a relight maybe 10 hours. My fireplace is in a corner room of the house so I need more heat output than if it was in the center of my house. Yep this is my first year burning. I've always loved cutting and splitting wood and now that I see a savings I'll love it even more.  I dont see myself being able to save too much more money. I brought my power bill down to 180 bucks for two months,  which is similar to summer bills so there's not much room to save more


 If you can go solar... I got no bill and a system that pays for itself


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## Jason H (Jan 19, 2021)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> If you can go solar... I got no bill and a system that pays for itself


I love that idea. Might be a real possibility in the future


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## Sodbuster (Feb 2, 2021)

When we bought our place we have, and still have, it had a 1000 gallon propane tank. House is about 3000 sq ft. I had our wood stove installed, and burned hard core, bringing our propane costs to the water heater, and minor furnace running, to very little. Since our house is 20 years old, and having Natural Gas run down our road , I had a 96% efficient  furnace installed. We have had very few fires,  unless we want to, or it is going to be bitter cold.  We burned $144 in Natural gas in January, so I'm basically burning $4.00 per day for all the heat and hot water I need.  I still burn, but not when like we were on the pig.


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