# replacement windows



## blacktail (Apr 18, 2017)

I'm getting new windows put in my house in the near future. Finally time to dump the Dr appt aluminum frames! I've got a few estimates for Coeur d'Alene, Cascade, and Milgard vinyl frame windows. I'm still waiting on an estimate from one more contractor but they also deal with Cascade and Milgard. 
In my brief searches online so far, it looks like Cascade windows are considered the lowest quality, and the price I was quoted reflects that. 
Any input on what's good or bad with these options?


----------



## blacktail (Apr 18, 2017)

Just checked my email and got the other estimate. I was incorrect in the brand they offered. They wrote the estimate for Lindsay windows. I'll do more googling but what I've read so far says they are decent for the price. This last estimate was slightly higher than the lowest bid I got, and that lowest bid was for Cascades. 
I like the company that gave the last bid. It's a small family company consisting of only the owner and his two sons. They've been in business a long time and they were the only company to stress the quality of their installation work, including details about how they'd handle the trim work.


----------



## Don2222 (Apr 18, 2017)

Hello
Here are my new windows with pics!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...new-construction-windows.127643/#post-1717852

I got brand new windows so the old drafty frames would be replaced also! Got vinyl on outside and wood on inside for staining. We like that look and also replaced all the dirty rotted trim boards inside and outside.

Are you getting New or Replacement Windows?


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 18, 2017)

Milgard is a local company to us in the NW. I had my single pane aluminums changed to replacement (finless) vinyl double pane and it turned out great. They just screw them into the rough opening after having them custom made to fit. Big improvement in comfort, noise, and aesthetics. Quick job too. They actually crushed/ripped/yanked out the old aluminum framed windows.


----------



## blades (Apr 18, 2017)

Can't offer any insight on brands but I can say that wood frames/ sashes and or Fiberglass systems. suffer the least amount of expansion contraction.  Fiberglass is all most the same rate as wood  where as most everything else has considerably more movement- which down the road a piece results in air leaks. The other info I came across is that solid vinyl assemblies  shrink with age.  I have done 2 homes with replacement wooden  double hung sash assemblies ( alum. clad to the out side) with no regrets ( neither place required complete frame replacement).


----------



## blacktail (Apr 18, 2017)

Don2222 said:


> Are you getting New or Replacement Windows?



The company I liked best specified that they use windows with the nail fins and additional trim work, and they emphasized the benefits of doing it that way. The other companies didn't say anything about how it would be done.


----------



## greg13 (Apr 18, 2017)

I personally don't care for replacement windows. basically all you are doing is replacing the glass. If you have any leakage between the frames and the walls it is still going to be there. 

Greg


----------



## Don2222 (Apr 19, 2017)

blacktail said:


> The company I liked best specified that they use windows with the nail fins and additional trim work, and they emphasized the benefits of doing it that way. The other companies didn't say anything about how it would be done.


Yes the nail flanges (fins) that seal up really well come on most new windows. The best way to go!


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 19, 2017)

Seems to be a bit of confusion here. You can buy new windows with or without a nail fin. The full frame and everything is new. If you get the fin then the window is face nailed to the sheathing over your rough opening and then you fill in the gaps between the frame and the wood framing with something to seal it. The finless windows are installed like a door, to the actual inside of the rough opening. You then fill the same gap with something to seal it. Both are perfectly acceptable but the fin requires a lot more exterior trim work on a retrofit. Also, you can customize the reveal with a finless window so that you can shove the new window right up to the interior sheetrock and sill. Not so with the fin.

I have seen the fins cutoff on site to make installation easier. Heard finned windows called "new work" and finless called "old work" just like electrical boxes.

If you bust the glass with a rock, the actual double pane glass part can often be popped out and replaced but that's not what we're talking about here at all.


----------



## blades (Apr 19, 2017)

Thanks Highbeam,  I was going to mention the same thing.


----------



## Jazzberry (May 8, 2017)

Was a Gen Contractor for many years and Milgard was my favorite.


----------



## bholler (Mar 28, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Seems to be a bit of confusion here. You can buy new windows with or without a nail fin. The full frame and everything is new. If you get the fin then the window is face nailed to the sheathing over your rough opening and then you fill in the gaps between the frame and the wood framing with something to seal it. The finless windows are installed like a door, to the actual inside of the rough opening. You then fill the same gap with something to seal it. Both are perfectly acceptable but the fin requires a lot more exterior trim work on a retrofit. Also, you can customize the reveal with a finless window so that you can shove the new window right up to the interior sheetrock and sill. Not so with the fin.
> 
> I have seen the fins cutoff on site to make installation easier. Heard finned windows called "new work" and finless called "old work" just like electrical boxes.
> 
> If you bust the glass with a rock, the actual double pane glass part can often be popped out and replaced but that's not what we're talking about here at all.


You are absolutely right.  But I think replacement windows get a bad wrap because many contractors simply pull the old sashes out and insert the new window into the old frame without doing anything to seal that frame up.  This means there can still be massive ammounts of air leakage.  But done right there is nothing wrong with replacement windows at all.


----------



## Jazzberry (Mar 28, 2019)

bholler said:


> You are absolutely right.  But I think replacement windows get a bad wrap because many contractors simply pull the old sashes out and insert the new window into the old frame without doing anything to seal that frame up.  This means there can still be massive ammounts of air leakage.  But done right there is nothing wrong with replacement windows at all.



Out here in the west we call them retro windows. One of the coolest things about retros was you could pay your crew $4.00 per hour and no one had to own a pair of work boots. 8 guys running around like chickens with their heads cut off and they could still get a 2000 sq ft house done in six hours. Super high quality. Hard to compete with the Home Depot parking lot crews.


----------



## Don2222 (Mar 28, 2019)

X


bholler said:


> You are absolutely right.  But I think replacement windows get a bad wrap because many contractors simply pull the old sashes out and insert the new window into the old frame without doing anything to seal that frame up.  This means there can still be massive ammounts of air leakage.  But done right there is nothing wrong with replacement windows at all.


x2
I like the nail Flange or fin, sure it is a lot more work but assures no water leakage and a good seal. IHMO
I removed all the old windows and their frames and then replaced them with brand new Anderson Windows with the nailing Flange. Still I had to use window foam to put in under the inside trim between the new window and the jack studs and top header and bottom studs. Hopefully they are sealed up enough?
See my pics here
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...new-construction-windows.127643/#post-1717852


----------



## Jazzberry (Mar 28, 2019)

You did good. Only bad thing about Anderson is the price. Killer windows if you can afford them.


----------



## Don2222 (Mar 28, 2019)

Jazzberry said:


> You did good. Only bad thing about Anderson is the price. Killer windows if you can afford them.


Here are some 2019 prices for Anderson double hung windows.
Are these very high?
What prices have you seen for other double hung windows?


----------



## peakbagger (Mar 28, 2019)

Always gets me that solar panels are cheaper than windows. on square foot basis. One of these years they will come up with a cost effective coating on the outside of the window that will turn it into solar panel. 

My brother is getting ready to build a house and he went to two different building suppliers for catalogs with sizing. Both places told him all windows are custom these days, just give them an size and they will build them. Sure doesnt make sense that they cant fill a warehouse full of stock sizes for lower unit cost.


----------



## greg13 (Mar 28, 2019)

Jazzberry said:


> You did good. Only bad thing about Anderson is the price. Killer windows if you can afford them.



You get what you pay for. My Pella windows are 15-20 yrs old and need replacing, they never did seal 100%. Replacing with Andersons one at a time.


----------



## bholler (Mar 28, 2019)

greg13 said:


> You get what you pay for. My Pella windows are 15-20 yrs old and need replacing, they never did seal 100%. Replacing with Andersons one at a time.


In my experience Anderson's only last about 25yrs.


----------



## Jazzberry (Mar 29, 2019)

Don2222 said:


> Here are some 2019 prices for Anderson double hung windows.
> Are these very high?
> What prices have you seen for other double hung windows?



I been out of the game for 12 to 13 years now but Anderson have always been at the top of the heap for cost and quality. Pella always seemed like a quality window for the price. I really liked their sliding glass doors. One of the reasons I liked Milgard so much was when a customer called me a year or two after the install with a problem I would call Milgard and within a few days they would go to the site make my customers extremely happy. When I called to check up on them the customers usually told me what a great service they received from Milgard. Unbelievable customer service.


----------



## MTY (Mar 29, 2019)

I first put vinyl window in a house in the very early 80's.  I cannot remember the brand.  About 11 years ago, I put vinyl windows in my neighbor's house.  He was cheap and the windows showed it.  I have a bit of experience as a DIY window replacer. 

Nine years ago I put Cascade in this house.  I had an issue with the mechanism that guides the window up and down.  Cascade said they had gotten a defective bunch from their supplier and were here within a very short time to replace the mechanism in every window.  No other issues. 

So, I put them in my rental.  No problems at all. 

The house we are building has Cascade windows in it.  I ordered their top of the line windows.  Every contractor that has seen them raves on them. 

I put Milguard in a house about 15 years ago.  They were great, but when I went to purchase them for this house the cost staggered me.  At that time the lumber yard recommended the Cascade.  I'm glad they did.   

For the place we are building, I ordered the windows in three sets as we worked through the different phases of remodeling and adding on, so I do not have and accurate total in my head, but I spent about 10-11K delivered to site.  Milguard would have been about another 6k. 

I can assure you that had I experienced any problems with Cascade beyound the defective mechanisms, I would not have continued to order them.  Their prompt attention to that issue influenced my decision to purchase them again. 

How you install the window is as important has the window itself.  You defeat the purpose with a poor install.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Mar 29, 2019)

In some case,s i order single hung windows. Zero leakage in the top window. Especially if your doing all first floor installations so cleaning is a non issue. Plus the window is rock solid during installation.


----------



## peakbagger (Mar 29, 2019)

I have had to repair Anderson's over the years on occasions and a major plus is they stock many wear components for many years. I have bought parts for 40 year old Anderson's which is something not a lot of companies can or will do. Its not an easy process as they want to make sure you get the exact right part. I even converted over a fixed glass window to a crank out casement at one point by buying all the hardware. Mine are 30 years old and in great shape except for dumb stuff I did. The problem I expect is they may be too well built for a typical homeowner or builder who have a very low likelihood of staying in a house for more than 10 years. I have not had to order parts for Marvin's but have found that they are high quality. The Anderson Renewal windows that I have seen are well built but the business model of only selling through authorized installers means no DIY so anyone using them has to hope the installer does a good job. 

First thing I learned on installing windows is the installation is crucial to the long term performance and its hard to do those details on a window replacement. Flashing frequently ends up being replaced with "goop" and "goop" usually is not a long term solution.


----------



## mcdougy (Mar 30, 2019)

Glass is glass is glass. Coatings on the glass can change, as far as I know there is only a few different makers. The seals between the glass are important, but again there are really only a few different suppliers.   The frame is what it all comes down to as far as quality.  How much vinyl is inside the frame is what makes a difference. Good windows look like a "find your way out maze" like on a kids menu. This adds strength. The highest quality vinyl windows even fill the frame with foam adding more strength and R value.
Windows of lesser quality (lighter frame) will be prone to more movement, sagging,.... This causes operating problems. Anderson being a wood clad window makes it a strong window, the trade-off is the cost of cladding with aluminum on the outside by the manufacturer. Also the cost of painting/staining the interior wood side.

When comparing windows that's the details,  glass seal, strength in the frames, and the noted important thing is service. If you have a issue will they stand behind you and their product.
As far as nail fin or no nail fin...it's purpose is for a quicker install in new construction. You just nail the fin and shim the frame from the inside. Without a nail fin you have to predrill the frame and install a screw to hold the window. 
You must seal both types from the outside regardless. The nailing fin doesn't do any better job at that then a window without one.


----------



## Jazzberry (Mar 30, 2019)

Nail flange (new construction) is better 99.9% of the time. Its not unusual to find retro windows glued on to the existing window frame with 2 screws and double sided tape. And a 3 to 6 inch border trim of vinyl glued around the window is real tacky. I think in my area most of the retro installers hide their own easter eggs.


----------



## mcdougy (Mar 30, 2019)

Jazzberry said:


> Nail flange (new construction) is better 99.9% of the time. Its not unusual to find retro windows glued on to the existing window frame with 2 screws and double sided tape. And a 3 to 6 inch border trim of vinyl around the window is real tacky. I think in my area most of the retro installers hide their own easter eggs.



I agree that what you are is the incorrect way to install a window, but you are referring to a complete tear out or slide in the old frame. Again I agree that a complete tear out is the proper way to replace a window. The only time a window may be needed to be installed in the old frame is if the trim line becomes a major issue for the homeowner. Sometimes they love their old trim so much that it's impossible to make a new window fit up to it. In general with old wood frame single pane windows it's impossible to have both the exterior fit tight and the interior match perfectly. All this is dependent on the how old the windows are that are being ripped out. Exterior finish is a factor as well. Tell me how to use a nailing fin on brick exterior in a replacement application.


----------



## Jazzberry (Mar 31, 2019)

mcdougy said:


> I agree that what you are is the incorrect way to install a window, but you are referring to a complete tear out or slide in the old frame. Again I agree that a complete tear out is the proper way to replace a window. The only time a window may be needed to be installed in the old frame is if the trim line becomes a major issue for the homeowner. Sometimes they love their old trim so much that it's impossible to make a new window fit up to it. In general with old wood frame single pane windows it's impossible to have both the exterior fit tight and the interior match perfectly. All this is dependent on the how old the windows are that are being ripped out. Exterior finish is a factor as well. Tell me how to use a nailing fin on brick exterior in a replacement application.




Lots of different choices depending on the existing brick assembly. Fir strips, angle strips, interior framing. Sometimes it may be the only choice you have but it would definitely be my very last choice.


----------



## lml999 (Mar 31, 2019)

I've got the opposite problem, Good double hung, double pane windows, installed 25 years ago. Most are still tight, a few have broken seals. I have replaced some of the weather strips. I'd keep them if I could...

The problem is that some of the pine window sills and trim are rotting. A good local carpenter said he would not take on replacing the sills, didn't think we'd like the results. He suggested replacing the entire window units. Probably the right way to go...

We have some other rotting trim to replace around the house, and I'm leaning toward finding *good* treated wood trim or western cedar versus going with composite.


----------



## Don2222 (Mar 31, 2019)

lml999 said:


> I've got the opposite problem, Good double hung, double pane windows, installed 25 years ago. Most are still tight, a few have broken seals. I have replaced some of the weather sealing. I'd keep them if I could...
> 
> The problem is that some of the sills and trim are rotting. A good local carpenter said he would not take on replacing the sills, didn't think we'd like the results. He suggested replacing the entire window units. Probably the right way to go...
> 
> We have some other rotting trim to replace around the house, and I'm leaning toward finding *good* treated wood trim versus going with composite.


Composite is more expensive but will never rot, so why not go with composite?


----------



## Jazzberry (Mar 31, 2019)

Don2222 said:


> Composite is more expensive but will never rot, so why not go with composite?




Composite or redwood. Treated is not my favorite for anything in contact with moisture.


----------



## mcdougy (Mar 31, 2019)

I'm thinking that  lml999 may be referring to mdf. The glass units if the seal is leaking can be replaced at a relatively inexpensive cost. What in your opinion has caused the trim to rot? The old window before replacement or the new window leaking in some way?


----------



## lml999 (Apr 1, 2019)

mcdougy said:


> I'm thinking that  lml999 may be referring to mdf. The glass units if the seal is leaking can be replaced at a relatively inexpensive cost. What in your opinion has caused the trim to rot? The old window before replacement or the new window leaking in some way?




All of the windows are original. I have not done any work on them, except for some weather stripping replacement.

Windows are RIVCO. Company went out of business a few years ago, and another company has spare parts available. For the blown seals, there's a local company who will take apart each sash and install new double glazed units. Cost is about $90 per sash, depending on glass options.

Location is Cape Cod, a moderately moist environment. We're several miles from the seashore.

The window problem is that some of the wood sills are rotting, along with some of the side trim. All were installed 25 years ago. Curious that while some windows are fine, others are problematic.

We will probably end up replacing the windows a couple at a time. Nicely, they're almost all the same size, so I can recycle sashes with good seals to other windows.

Other trim on the house is also showing rot -- trim boards, fascia, door trim, etc. I expect that the combination of cheap pine trim and the environment has caused this.

I have some door and window trim to replace, and I'm going to do as much as I can myself. For those pieces I'm going to use wood, perhaps western cedar or something else that the good local lumberyard will recommend. Existing trim is painted.

I'd prefer not to go with composite on those areas because I've heard of paint and shrinking/expansion problems.

For the roof rake boards, high up, any minor shrinking/expansion won't be visible. I'm not doing that work.


----------



## peakbagger (Apr 1, 2019)

Despite the claim of Rivco's being premium windows, they were regarded by most of the builders I knew as a "builders special" window. About the same as Brosco's.  

I expect your observation that the trim being white pine is source of the rot is probably dead on. Its great wood to work with but white or red cedar has far longer life in damp environments. Pine needs to have some sort of surface treatment to shed water for it to last outdoors and once that treatment fails it will start checking and then every time its damp the water gets into the wood and swells and cracks it some more. 

A product that I have been considering is thermally modified wood. The claim is that it can be left uncoated and holds up to seashore use. 

https://cambiawood.com//siding/. I have not researched the cost but would be glad to trade some of my tall straight aspens for some siding


----------



## blades (Apr 1, 2019)

Condensation on the interior glass surfaces generally are the reason for rotted sills.  secondly is moisture intrusion from the exterior  generally caused by poor installation in the first place or  settlement of the dwelling over time  affecting the construction and fitment.


----------



## Jazzberry (Apr 1, 2019)

I found a lot of it was also due to deteriorated caulking of the trim and overgrown landscaping. Wet and dry cycles are usually not too bad but if it holds moisture for long period before drying out the results is dry rot. Forget to caulk the trim before you paint traps moisture inbetween the siding and trim. No airflow allows the trapped moisture to start rotting from the inside out.


----------



## mcdougy (Apr 1, 2019)

Are you folks referring to interior or exterior trim? Here (Ontario Canada) wood as exterior trim or wood exterior windows haven't been used in 40 years.


----------



## blades (Apr 3, 2019)

wood framed home -- closest thing to wood framed windows -expansion and contraction wise is fiberglass  assemblies. There in states the problem with vinyl and alum. framed windows. Alum -extreme thermal conductivity. Vinyl  shrinks as it ages. Fiberglass very expensive.  ( that could have change since the last time I researched them) .. Been using alum. clad wood framed units on the 3 places I have redone full frame windows in. Current place I just replaced the thermo pane glass portion of the Anderson units. Collapsed pane syndrome- Anderson windows cica 89-91 mfg date. casement type. Bought the place in the summer so didn't know about the windows until winter before last.


----------



## mcdougy (Apr 4, 2019)

This is a typical window here.


----------



## mcdougy (Apr 4, 2019)

Energy star rating for mid and southern u.s.a zones 1&2


----------

