# Attended a hot water heater "code" seminar



## STIHLY DAN (Apr 11, 2015)

On April 16th the new rules for hot water heaters is supposedly to take place. I went to a Bradford white seminar (sales pitch) last night. The rep had nothing but bad things to say about HP water heaters, said he did not believe in them or all the maintenance that's involved. Apparently washing a filter every 6 months is maintenance excessive. Amazing how many people are fighting these changes, and that even reps have no idea how they work. Really is sad.


----------



## woodgeek (Apr 11, 2015)

Might have something to do with Bradford White not currently having a decent HPWH product for sale.  The new code regs basically cut off their sales of electric tanks 60 gallons and up, IIRC.  Perhaps Mgmt made a decision to not develop a product, thinking the regs wouldn't go through?


----------



## Ashful (Apr 11, 2015)

Washing a filter every six months is something 95 - 99% of the population won't do, past the 1 year ownership mark.  How many vacuum the evaporator coils on their refrigerator, or actually maintain salt in their water softener?  Very few.


----------



## STIHLY DAN (Apr 11, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> Might have something to do with Bradford White not currently having a decent HPWH product for sale.



I don't know of the quality, but they do make them. Looks a lot like the ge except there is no boost option on the control. Doe's ge own Bradford white?


----------



## woodgeek (Apr 11, 2015)

News to me, obviously.


----------



## velvetfoot (Apr 11, 2015)

Are they outlawing resistance hot water heaters?  The heat pump units are noisy compared to them.  It would mean a decline in quality of life if they weren't available any more.


----------



## woodgeek (Apr 11, 2015)

New regs starting 2015 require all HWHs to become more efficient.  For combustion systems, the minimum eff allowed now is roughly equal to the highest eff before.  Basically, it amounts to 2" insulation minimum instead of 1".

Larger conventional electric HWHs are banned.  I think the cutoff is 60 gallons. Bigger than that and non-combustion...needs to be HPWH.

Comments:
--Of course, nothing is stopping people from putting in two conventional 40 gallon units if they want.
--With low flow shower heads and more eff dishwashers, most folks that used to want an 80 gallon unit might now be happy with a 55 gallon unit.
--Well off folks with huge jacuzzi tubs in custom built houses....they can afford a giant HPWH in those new houses, and the builder can find a place for them.


----------



## STIHLY DAN (Apr 11, 2015)

Also no 80% gas. Now has to be condensing.


----------



## woodgeek (Apr 11, 2015)

Aah.  And that means no metal venting for gas HWH, only PVC.  PITA and HUGE change.

A dumb question....are there _any_ atmospherically vented condensing gas HWH's??


----------



## STIHLY DAN (Apr 12, 2015)

Not that I know of. Also pvc is going bye bye. Its going to be cpvc or the other type.


----------



## jebatty (Apr 12, 2015)

A regulation requiring HPWH is another example of an industry (water heater + plumbing + builders) favoring cheapness over performance and quality. As I have posted before, the simple and inexpensive act of super-insulating water heater (6" of fiberglass like that used in walls) can reduce electric usage substantially, and when combined with effective heat traps and insulating hot water lines, reduced our electric use for hot water by 50%. Cost? Less than $50 when done a few years ago. Cost recovery - about 6 months.

Non-electric units need a little more care to insure good combustion ventilation and good draft, but effective heat traps and hot water line insulation is there for everybody. 

So, an industry unwilling to change and provide leadership in conservation, and its consuming public, now have been hit with a club. Blame the regulation? Hardly. Blame an industry and public bent on cheap? I could bet on that.


----------



## woodgeek (Apr 12, 2015)

The gas thing is a bigger issue IMO.  The 'standard' HWH now as I get it is a low-eff, atmospherically vented gas-fired tank with a thin aluminum vent stack.  The 'building performance' crowd has _hated_ these units for a long time...besides the low efficiency, the vent stack is usually open to the space intentionally, pulling huge amounts of conditioned air from the building 24/7 (and through the tank stack increasing tank losses).  AND, as folks airseal and build tighter houses these things start working less well, backdrafting, and becoming major CO hazards.

And in 10 years they will all be gone, replaced with units that are sealed combustion.  Welcome to the 21st century.

Of course, retrofit will not only mean a more expensive unit, but now also require replacing the venting.  Of course, if they are power vented, the existing Alum chimney stack can be abandoned and a vent run sideways out the wall, but it will still mean an expensive and complex replacement, when folks are usually in a hurry, no hot water.  There will be much cursing of the EPA I think.  And a few 'non-code' venting solutions, like attaching the outlet to the Al stack.  And some folks just cheaping out with an electric tank instead.


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 12, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> The gas thing is a bigger issue IMO.  The 'standard' HWH now as I get it is a low-eff, atmospherically vented gas-fired tank with a thin aluminum vent stack.  The 'building performance' crowd has _hated_ these units for a long time...besides the low efficiency, the vent stack is usually open to the space intentionally, pulling huge amounts of conditioned air from the building 24/7 (and through the tank stack increasing tank losses).  AND, as folks airseal and build tighter houses these things start working less well, backdrafting, and becoming major CO hazards.
> 
> And in 10 years they will all be gone, replaced with units that are sealed combustion.  Welcome to the 21st century.
> 
> Of course, retrofit will not only mean a more expensive unit, but now also require replacing the venting.  Of course, if they are power vented, the existing Alum chimney stack can be abandoned and a vent run sideways out the wall, but it will still mean an expensive and complex replacement, when folks are usually in a hurry, no hot water.  There will be much cursing of the EPA I think.  And a few 'non-code' venting solutions, like attaching the outlet to the Al stack.  And some folks just cheaping out with an electric tank instead.



Also with the requirement for power vented condensing will be the need for an electrician to provide a 120 power source, and the plumber to install a drain to the space for condensate in addition to all new venting.

Just replacing an electric water heater to code recently meant I had to add a plumbed drain pan, expansion tank, and earthquake strapping.


----------



## semipro (Apr 12, 2015)

Ashful said:


> Washing a filter every six months is something 95 - 99% of the population won't do, past the 1 year ownership mark.  How many vacuum the evaporator coils on their refrigerator, or actually maintain salt in their water softener?  Very few.


The Geospring is smart enough to let you know that the filter is dirty anyway.


----------



## woodgeek (Apr 12, 2015)

The fan on my HPWH gets louder and LOUDER as the filter get's clogged.


----------



## woodgeek (Apr 27, 2015)

So, on closer inspection, it seems that the EF requirements for nat-gas fired, 55 gallon and smaller units are 0.62 or greater, which is possible with a natural draft unit with thicker insulation.

Natural draft gas heaters are not being banned....only the big ones.

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/naeca


----------



## STIHLY DAN (Apr 28, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> So, on closer inspection, it seems that the EF requirements for nat-gas fired, 55 gallon and smaller units are 0.62 or greater, which is possible with a natural draft unit with thicker insulation.
> 
> Natural draft gas heaters are not being banned....only the big ones.
> 
> http://www.bradfordwhite.com/naeca



That is correct, same as the electric.


----------

