# Anyone here ever owned a coffee shop?



## SlyFerret (Dec 23, 2018)

Starting to think about what is next.

I’m in tech.  I run web services behind mobile apps.  It’s been fun, but I am feeling a desire to start focusing on something a little less high tech and more local where I can have some sort of connection with my customers.

I love coffee, the equipment, the technique of different brewing methods.  I also love small business.  I’m working (slowly) on a business operations and supply chain management degree.

I keep catching myself thinking that a coffee shop would align well with my interests, be fulfilling from a customer relationship standpoint, and give me the opportunity to apply the concepts from my OSCM degree at a manageable scale.  I could apply technology effectively where necessary to support efficient operations.

I’d be interested to hear the real poop from someone who has done this before.  Is it truly sustainable for independent shops?  Could I actually support a family of 4 from it and still save for retirement?  What sucks that you didn’t anticipate sucking? What is awesome?  Any specific advice or hard lessons learned?

Thanks!
-SF


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## johneh (Dec 23, 2018)

Don't know what it is like in the States but in Canada there is a Tim Horton's or Starbucks on every coroner
Don't know how they make a living !


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## firefighterjake (Dec 23, 2018)

johneh said:


> Don't know what it is like in the States but in Canada there is a Tim Horton's or Starbucks on every coroner
> Don't know how they make a living !



HehHeh . . . "coroner."   Pretty sure coffee isn't that bad.


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## johneh (Dec 23, 2018)

Sometimes it is just that bad 
sorry spell check is not worth a sh-- !


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## AlbergSteve (Dec 24, 2018)

firefighterjake said:


> HehHeh . . . "coroner."   Pretty sure coffee isn't that bad.


It is at Tim's...


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## SpaceBus (Dec 24, 2018)

When we were looking at houses, we found a few coffee shops that went under and were selling their business. It's something we considered, but decided was over our heads.


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## SlyFerret (Dec 24, 2018)

johneh said:


> Don't know what it is like in the States but in Canada there is a Tim Horton's or Starbucks on every coroner
> Don't know how they make a living !



That's one of the things I was thinking about.  Those big chains are doing things at an incredible scale, so I was wondering if it's actually profitable as an independent shop.

-SF


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## Tegbert (Dec 24, 2018)

I know a woman who bought a stand 6-8 years ago. I know she started out with just her and occasionally her sister.  Now she has three.  I don’t know her profit margins or if she saves for retirement but she must be doing something right if she has opened two more and has the means to pay employees at each location. 


She also uses locally sourced coffee (at least locally roasted) and pastries and such. Part of her success is every now and then she does fundraisers for families or kids who have medical issues to help with bills. Those days she takes all profits and tips and donates it to said individuals. So again must be doing pretty good to still pay her employees while basically making zero profit for the day. 

While I have no experience in coffee shops the stands I see fail are, usually, in my mind because of location. We had one that changed at least 6 times over two years and I think it was because it was in the middle of two towns on a busy highway. While easy to get to from both directions being in between them most people will stop in the towns to get coffee right when they leave not while they started. Also the ones that are in hard to access parking lots or crammed in a corner in a parking lot. 

I’ve seen more success in local shops that have a setup like the big chains do. Yeah it has more overhead but if you provide a nice relaxing atmosphere and power and WiFi people will naturally come it seems. One even serves beer and wine. 

I’ve thought about doing the same thing before but being in the PNW where there is a coffee shop every 20 feet and a stand every 2 it seems like a huge risk and I can’t just drop everything to try it but people do and it seems to work. Whether or not they make a decent living I don’t know though. 





Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25


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## AlbergSteve (Dec 24, 2018)

My take is you must provide a service/product that is unique and create a bit of a niche, you can't just sell black dishwater and cupcakes. Our local, *Drumroaster*, has been around over ten years  and serves a pretty small rural area. They're passionate about coffee, imports his own beans, learned to repair, sell and service equipment, and supplies custom roasted coffee to other shops. All of this in a 2000 square feet of space and the place is packed every day.


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## begreen (Dec 24, 2018)

Coffee is in the blood here locally. It's where Starbucks and Seattle Best Coffee originated. We have a few espresso stands and several good coffee roasters in our small town of 10,000. The most successful coffee and tea shops here are based around good coffees and teas and a great place to meet, read, enjoy free wifi, hangout over a cuppa. Starbucks, et al are too sterile and corporate. Chose a good location and make it a warm friendly place to congregate and you'll have a better chance at success. Have art shows, serve a little good food and/or baked goods, maybe have a library and a meeting room to help make this a go-to place.


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## SpaceBus (Dec 24, 2018)

A wood stove would help make it warm and inviting in the winter! You might have to kick people out


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 24, 2018)

SpaceBus said:


> A wood stove would help make it warm and inviting in the winter! You might have to kick people out


Wood Stove Roasters.  I could see that.

Now, what about summer ambiance?


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## begreen (Dec 24, 2018)

ED 3000 said:


> Wood Stove Roasters.  I could see that.
> 
> Now, what about summer ambiance?


Nice, high ceilinged old warehouse space makes for good ambience year round. Serve iceds drinks and good ice cream and gelatos in the summer.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 24, 2018)

begreen said:


> Nice, high ceilinged old warehouse space makes for good ambience year round. Serve iceds drinks and good ice cream and gelatos in the summer.


I've always wondered if a coffee shop by day and beer pub specializing in good microbrews by night might not be a more efficient deployment of capital.  Ever since spending a month in England 25 years ago, and enjoying the hell out of the local pubs, I thought that the idea would work over here.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 25, 2018)

SlyFerret said:


> Starting to think about what is next.
> 
> I’m in tech.  I run web services behind mobile apps.  It’s been fun, but I am feeling a desire to start focusing on something a little less high tech and more local where I can have some sort of connection with my customers.
> 
> ...



You should look for a part time job at a coffee shop first, to see if you would like it and learn how it works.  I have tried to switch careers a couple of times and I always come back to what I was doing before.  Over the years I have come to realize I am good at it, and I make good money doing it.  I still try other things on the side, but I have learned to appreciate the job that pays the bills.

If you really want to try it, consider the cost of buying into a coffee shop business that needs a partner, versus the cost of opening your own shop from scratch.  And only invest what you can and are willing to lose.  There is a very good chance you will go back to doing what you were doing.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 25, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> You should look for a part time job at a coffee shop first, to see if you would like it and learn how it works.  I have tried to switch careers a couple of times and I always come back to what I was doing before.  Over the years I have come to realize I am good at it, and I make good money doing it.  I still try other things on the side, but I have learned to appreciate the job that pays the bills.
> 
> If you really want to try it, consider the cost of buying into a coffee shop business that needs a partner, versus the cost of opening your own shop from scratch.  And only invest what you can and are willing to lose.  There is a very good chance you will go back to doing what you were doing.


Words of wisdom gained from experience. Nice one, Vinny.


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## PaulOinMA (Dec 25, 2018)

Thought folks might enjoy.  I'm on the Outer Banks and get the Virginian-Pilot.  Article on how the Hampton Roads, VA  area is a hub for coffee roasters.  Interesting article.

https://pilotonline.com/business/ports-rail/article_501417c2-f98d-11e8-b85f-4f997a34b154.html


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## SpaceBus (Dec 25, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> You should look for a part time job at a coffee shop first, to see if you would like it and learn how it works.  I have tried to switch careers a couple of times and I always come back to what I was doing before.  Over the years I have come to realize I am good at it, and I make good money doing it.  I still try other things on the side, but I have learned to appreciate the job that pays the bills.
> 
> If you really want to try it, consider the cost of buying into a coffee shop business that needs a partner, versus the cost of opening your own shop from scratch.  And only invest what you can and are willing to lose.  There is a very good chance you will go back to doing what you were doing.



Heh, I wish I could have kept doing what I was doing, but that's not an option to me. Until I figure out what I'm going to do, the GI bill will pay for me to take all of the trades offered at the CC. I've been working a variety of jobs since I was medically retired, but I still feel lost in the sauce sometimes. I really want to work on cars or engines and have my own shop, but I don't even know if I would like working in a shop. I've been tinkering with cars, building engines, and grassroots racing for many years, but who knows if I'll enjoy doing that _with other people/a boss. _I've even considered doing roadside assistance/towing. 

I'm glad the OP created the thread, since I don't really know what the hell I'm going to do yet. It seems coffee shops don't work around here since there's a Dunks. A local mom and pop joint "mysteriously" burned down after a year being open...


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## aansorge (Dec 25, 2018)

My wife and I owned and operated a coffee house for 3 years.  We had homemade pasteries, pannini sandwiches, homemade soups, etc. It was a beautiful place and we had a small group of very loyal custormers.  We made enough to survive by doing catering at night.  

Once we had kids, it was back to careers.  We are now both teachers and love the security of a real paycheck, having weekends off, health insurance, summers off, and a retirement plan.  We also love our memories of the coffee house and don't regret doing it.  

We purchased an existing business and made 10,000 profit selling it 3 years later.


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## SpaceBus (Dec 25, 2018)

aansorge said:


> My wife and I owned and operated a coffee house for 3 years.  We had homemade pasteries, pannini sandwiches, homemade soups, etc. It was a beautiful place and we had a small group of very loyal custormers.  We made enough to survive by doing catering at night.
> 
> Once we had kids, it was back to careers.  We are now both teachers and love the security of a real paycheck, having weekends off, health insurance, summers off, and a retirement plan.  We also love our memories of the coffee house and don't regret doing it.
> 
> We purchased an existing business and made 10,000 profit selling it 3 years later.




Off topic, but when did stock NBs go to CS? Do you have an MSM? I haven't gone to an event for over two years after my the engine in my STR Miata let go, not that the car was particularly competitive.


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## sportbikerider78 (Dec 26, 2018)

johneh said:


> Don't know what it is like in the States but in Canada there is a Tim Horton's or Starbucks on every coroner
> Don't know how they make a living !


So, you basically have no good coffee then.


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## aansorge (Dec 26, 2018)

SpaceBus said:


> Off topic, but when did stock NBs go to CS? Do you have an MSM? I haven't gone to an event for over two years after my the engine in my STR Miata let go, not that the car was particularly competitive.



That pic is from years ago.  It is a '99 sport that I ran in CS then ES.  I owned and autocrossed it for 14 years but sold it a year and a half ago and now run a 2008 accord v6 coupe in hstreet.  It does suprisingly well but isn't a fun autocross car.


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## sportbikerider78 (Dec 26, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> You should look for a part time job at a coffee shop first, to see if you would like it and learn how it works.  I have tried to switch careers a couple of times and I always come back to what I was doing before.  Over the years I have come to realize I am good at it, and I make good money doing it.  I still try other things on the side, but I have learned to appreciate the job that pays the bills.
> 
> If you really want to try it, consider the cost of buying into a coffee shop business that needs a partner, versus the cost of opening your own shop from scratch.  And only invest what you can and are willing to lose.  There is a very good chance you will go back to doing what you were doing.


That is great real world advice.

On switching careers.....
I moved from running big manufacturing organizations (hundreds of millions every year, hundreds of employees) to a single, stand alone outside sales engineer position.  I took a major pay cut to build a sales territory and haven't ever been happier. My life is just plain better.  I'm healthier.  I get more time with my family and my company is amazing. 
Even with 2 kids, a stay at home wife, and a nice house, we are doing just fine, because I have always lived below my means.  This affords me the luxury to NOT be a slave from paycheck to paycheck, but to explore different opportunities that are more rewarding.  I get flack from everyone of my friends for this...they think i should be making lots of money doing what my previous career path told me to do, not what I want to do. 

So..the advice of a 40 yr old who has been working for 25 yrs.....
Live below your means.
Keep cash on hand.
If you have a passion and need a change...you MUST explore it.  This is what life is about.

No matter what anyone tells you....there is always a market for good products.  Good products are made by people who are passionate about what they do.  If you can combine passion with general common sense and a hit of fiscal responsibility/business sense...you can be unstoppable.


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## johneh (Dec 26, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> So, you basically have no good coffee then.


The best lowest price Coffee ( That I like) is 
McDonald's . You Know the little Scottish restaurant on every corner


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## sportbikerider78 (Dec 26, 2018)

johneh said:


> The best lowest price Coffee ( That I like) is
> McDonald's . You Know the little Scottish restaurant on every corner


In a pinch....they are my choice as well.


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## SlyFerret (Dec 26, 2018)

SpaceBus said:


> A wood stove would help make it warm and inviting in the winter! You might have to kick people out



Ha!  A wood stove is actually part of my vision for my shop if I do end up owning one.
-SF


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## SlyFerret (Dec 26, 2018)

vinny11950 said:


> You should look for a part time job at a coffee shop first, to see if you would like it and learn how it works.  I have tried to switch careers a couple of times and I always come back to what I was doing before.  Over the years I have come to realize I am good at it, and I make good money doing it.  I still try other things on the side, but I have learned to appreciate the job that pays the bills.
> 
> If you really want to try it, consider the cost of buying into a coffee shop business that needs a partner, versus the cost of opening your own shop from scratch.  And only invest what you can and are willing to lose.  There is a very good chance you will go back to doing what you were doing.



Thanks for this.  Good advice that I will keep in mind!
-SF


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## SlyFerret (Dec 26, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> That is great real world advice.
> 
> On switching careers.....
> I moved from running big manufacturing organizations (hundreds of millions every year, hundreds of employees) to a single, stand alone outside sales engineer position.  I took a major pay cut to build a sales territory and haven't ever been happier. My life is just plain better.  I'm healthier.  I get more time with my family and my company is amazing.
> ...



Sounds familiar.  I turn 41 in a few weeks.  My wife and I do a good job living below our means.  I have a great tech job that pays quite well, but I'm looking to do something completely different.  I'm not sure I'd say that I'm passionate about doing what I'm doing these days, and would like to have more time and mental energy for my family.  Hopefully I can come up with a good idea that aligns my interests with my work and lets me build a family business at the same time.

-SF


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 27, 2018)

SlyFerret said:


> Sounds familiar.  I turn 41 in a few weeks.  My wife and I do a good job living below our means.  I have a great tech job that pays quite well, but I'm looking to do something completely different.  I'm not sure I'd say that I'm passionate about doing what I'm doing these days, and would like to have more time and mental energy for my family.  Hopefully I can come up with a good idea that aligns my interests with my work and lets me build a family business at the same time.
> 
> -SF


I understand how you feel about this.  I knew from the start I'd be worn out from the corporate grind well before I hit 50.  You know what happens to the milk if you keep it in the fridge too long.  It's good to recognize that it's coming and figure out your next steps.

Any chance your company would allow a sabbatical?  I think they are useful to make sure you don't just need a long break.  Even doing something that you are passionate about, in repetition for 20 years, coupled with corporate grind (ah, the annual and semi-annual reviews and endless stream of meetings), can make one very weary.

Good luck figuring this out and keep us posted.


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## Dobish (Dec 27, 2018)

i have a very good friend who recently opened up a coffee shop/bike shop combo. He has been loving being an active part of the community.  He just recently opened a second shop, and is doing quite well. In the winter, they also do ski and snowboard tunes. 

I have another friend who owned a mountain town coffee shop for years, but found it very hard to make a decent and sustainable living. she sold the coffee shop and bought a bar.

Another friend in a different mountain town owns a boutique coffee shop between a dunkin donuts, a mcdonalds, and a starbucks (when i say middle, i mean, equidistant within walking distance). She uses her coffee shop as a community hub, with a focus on community service and volunteer opportunties. She is on the board of education for her city as well as the state. 

As with anything, it is about the experience that you are giving your customers, and getting people to come in. Find your niche.


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## MDWOOD (Dec 29, 2018)

How about hi end coffee and a gourmet deli like Katzingers down in Columbus.
Big leather couches wood stove etc,, I say go for it your in a good area for it.

Ps I have a Main street business 17 loooong years.


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## SlyFerret (Dec 29, 2018)

MDWOOD said:


> How about hi end coffee and a gourmet deli like Katzingers down in Columbus.
> Big leather couches wood stove etc,, I say go for it your in a good area for it.
> 
> Ps I have a Main street business 17 loooong years.



I’ll have to check out Katzingers.  I’ve heard of them but have never been there.

I’ve kicked around the idea of also doing personal sized desert pies instead of just muffins and bagels.  Possibly pot pies for lunch too.

Want to go for a rustic cabin/lodge feel.

-SF


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## sportbikerider78 (Jan 6, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> I understand how you feel about this.  I knew from the start I'd be worn out from the corporate grind well before I hit 50.  You know what happens to the milk if you keep it in the fridge too long.  It's good to recognize that it's coming and figure out your next steps.
> 
> Any chance your company would allow a sabbatical?  I think they are useful to make sure you don't just need a long break.  Even doing something that you are passionate about, in repetition for 20 years, coupled with corporate grind (ah, the annual and semi-annual reviews and endless stream of meetings), can make one very weary.
> 
> Good luck figuring this out and keep us posted.


I completely shifted my career at 40.  No looking back.  Happier than ever!


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## weatherguy (Jan 7, 2019)

You like beer? A bar of liquor store is a guaranteed money maker, coffee is tough with the starbucks on every corner, there was a small coffee shop in town I used to go to all the time, for the owners it was part time as they had other jobs, maybe you can start something with a partner and keep working and see how things go.


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## SlyFerret (Jan 9, 2019)

weatherguy said:


> You like beer? A bar of liquor store is a guaranteed money maker, coffee is tough with the starbucks on every corner, there was a small coffee shop in town I used to go to all the time, for the owners it was part time as they had other jobs, maybe you can start something with a partner and keep working and see how things go.



Yes!  I have been home brewing with a friend of mine since 2010 or so.  We brew all grain and have had really good results.  We have considered starting a brewery as another alternative to the coffee shop idea.

-SF


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## Dobish (Jan 9, 2019)

there is nothing wrong with coffee stouts!  Issues with breweries are they are significantly more costly and time consuming, as you have to deal with ATF


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## SlyFerret (Jan 13, 2019)

Dobish said:


> there is nothing wrong with coffee stouts!  Issues with breweries are they are significantly more costly and time consuming, as you have to deal with ATF



Yup.  On  if the big reasons that I thought the coffee shop idea might be better.  Another friend of mine owns a brewery already.  It’s a lot of work, a lot more capital, and a lot more compliance, than a coffee shop, for sure!

-SF


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