# UL listings not being honored by my insurance



## diyrye (Sep 28, 2012)

Hello again guys, I'm trying to buy a stove to install and my insurance insists that UL has to be the one that does the UL listing. Many stove companies, including the expensive ones, use intertek to test to UL standards. My insurance is trying to tell me that it can't be another company testing to UL's standards and that UL (underwriters laboratories Inc) itself must do the testing to maintain a UL listing/approval. 

They are saying US Stove company, Vogelzang, Drolet, Jotul, (and I'm waiting on harmans response)  are all not UL certified since they use intertek or a similar lab.

 I have contacted UL directly and am waiting to hear back from them but UL certified is UL certified right no matter who actually performed the test. So far I haven't found a single manufacturer that actually uses UL labs. Is it just me or is my insurance company on crack? Thanks for any input.


----------



## Jaugust124 (Sep 28, 2012)

Get a new insurance company.


----------



## BrotherBart (Sep 28, 2012)

That is because UL does not test solid fuel heating appliances. They don't have the gear or labs for it. That is why it is farmed out. What idiot insurance company is this? I suspect that this is just an agent talking. Get a phone number for the underwriting department. That will get their attention.

Tell them to point you to a stove company that UL tests and you will buy their stove.  Or ask them why UL does periodic inspections and re-certifies labs like Intertek.


----------



## diyrye (Sep 28, 2012)

My insurance is grange out of ohio, super cheap but super anal apparently. I had stoves narrowed down to the vogelzang performer or us stove model 3000 after months of looking around and they shot me down with this UL stuff. Looks like I'll have to give them a lesson on UL certification! Maybe direct them to UL themselves. I even forwarded an email from US stoves to the agent. I had talked to the actual insurance company and they told me I needed to talk to my agent about it. You think an insurance company would know what they were along about.


----------



## tfdchief (Sep 28, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> That is because UL does not test solid fuel heating appliances. They don't have the gear or labs for it. That is why it is farmed out. What idiot insurance company is this? I suspect that this is just an agent talking. Get a phone number for the underwriting department. That will get their attention.
> 
> Tell them to point you to a stove company that UL tests and you will buy their stove.  Or ask them why UL does periodic inspections and re-certifies labs like Intertek.


That a boy BB.  I really wanted to respond to this thread, but you beat me to it.......and right on the money.  So I will just say if it were me, I would challenge the insurance company just for kicks and then go get another one.  How ridiculous.   Codes often require "stuff" to be approved for a specific use.  But they don't say by whom.  It can even be the inspector of an AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) such as a municipality.


----------



## BrotherBart (Sep 28, 2012)

Most of the houses they insure have pre-fab fireplaces in them that never saw a UL lab. Heck most of the appliances in  your house weren't tested by UL but "conform" to UL requirements. UL is first, foremost and lately lastly a standards writing company. I think your insurance company has them confused with Consumer Reports that actually buys and tests stuff.


----------



## Jaugust124 (Sep 28, 2012)

So... you are going to take the time to educate them?  They should be paying you.  The best way to educate them is to go to their competition and tell them exactly why you are leaving.


----------



## diyrye (Sep 28, 2012)

What does the plate look like/say on the back of stoves? Does it say UL on it? Us stove told me they can't put the UL logo on it because they don't want to pay UL for the UL brand? sounds like she doesn't know what she is talking about either. She confirmed they use intertek. 

Many stove websites have the branded "UL" logo at the bottom. If that's on my stove I think my insurance company can bite me. If they have a problem with it still, I'll switch to yet another company. I had Allstate ( who didn't care If I was burning trash in a barrel to keep warm) but their rates skyrocketed on me so I switched to this company. If they keep it up I'll be switching again. By the way, my wife picked this company with my single only requirement given to her is that they allow woodstoves.. Apparently they do, just ones tested by non-existant labs


----------



## diyrye (Sep 28, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> Most of the houses they insure have pre-fab fireplaces in them that never saw a UL lab. Heck most of the appliances in  your house weren't tested by UL but "conform" to UL requirements. UL is first, foremost and lately lastly a standards writing company. I think your insurance company has them confused with Consumer Reports that actually buys and tests stuff.



Yeah I have two open fireplaces that they were ok with. Even with burn holes all over the carpet (there when i bought the house) which im replacing with tile.. But I guess a sealed jotul or harman stove is a fire hazard....


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Sep 28, 2012)

UL writes the standards , they dont test anything. i agree with the above, shop for a new insurance company. the one you have has their head up their azz.

UL standards apply to pillows and mattresses but UL doesnt test them, i bet they dont expect you to sleep on the floor do they?

intertek and the others are licensed to test to UL standards. UL 1482 is the standard for woodstoves. as long as the stove is certified to UL 1482 standards there should be no problem with who did the test provided they are certified by UL to underwrite the results.

your insurance agent is an idiot, feel free to tell him/her i said so. would make my day if ya did


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Sep 28, 2012)

diyrye said:


> What does the plate look like/say on the back of stoves? Does it say UL on it? Us stove told me they can't put the UL logo on it because they don't want to pay UL for the UL brand? sounds like she doesn't know what she is talking about either. She confirmed they use intertek.
> 
> Many stove websites have the branded "UL" logo at the bottom. If that's on my stove I think my insurance company can bite me. If they have a problem with it still, I'll switch to yet another company. I had Allstate ( who didn't care If I was burning trash in a barrel to keep warm) but their rates skyrocketed on me so I switched to this company. If they keep it up I'll be switching again. By the way, my wife picked this company with my single only requirement given to her is that they allow woodstoves.. Apparently they do, just ones tested by non-existant labs


 
wait a minute, the stove doesnt have the UL cert agency listed on the tag?? trust me , they cant afford NOT TO. its a cost of doing business. if the stove doesnt have a logo from a listed testing agency, DO NOT BUY IT! buy only a stove that has such a logo posted on the tag. it only counts on the tag itself, if it aint on the data tag it aint certified even if it passed the test. *trust me on this, i do this for a living. you CANNOT claim a UL certification for a stove without putting the logo of the underwriting agency on the tag on the stove!*


----------



## fossil (Sep 28, 2012)

See this somewhere on the tag on the back of the appliance or run away and report the seller.


----------



## diyrye (Sep 29, 2012)

Does anyone have a Vogelzang performer and if so does it have UL on the info plate?


----------



## begreen (Sep 29, 2012)

diyrye said:


> Does anyone have a Vogelzang performer and if so does it have UL on the info plate?


 
On the front page of the manual it states the stove meets UL 1482-2010 test standards


----------



## WidowMaker (Sep 29, 2012)

fossil said:


> See this somewhere on the tag on the back of the appliance or run away and report the seller.


 
Fossil, my Lopi, Endeavor does not have the UL logo but it does have a statement that it conforms to the UL standard...I assume that Warnock Hersey is the certifing agency...That picture was suppose to be inserted here....Sorry


----------



## Swedishchef (Sep 29, 2012)

That is foolishness, I would get a new insurance company. If they can be strict/anal on something like this, imagine what they will be like if you ever need to process a claim with them! Let this be a warning and I hope you heed the warning!

ANdrew


----------



## fossil (Sep 29, 2012)

WidowMaker said:


> ...Fossil, My Lopi, Endeavor does not have the UL logo but it does have a statement that it conforms to the UL standard...I assume that Warnock Hersey is the certifing agency...


 
I stand corrected.  Yes, Warnock Hersey is the certifying lab in this case.


----------



## Treacherous (Sep 29, 2012)

I haven't had a rate increase in years but that is true about Allstate.  They had no concern when I replaced my old Centennial smoke dragon with my Lopi.



diyrye said:


> I had Allstate ( who didn't care If I was burning trash in a barrel to keep warm) but their rates skyrocketed on me so I switched to this company.


----------



## diyrye (Sep 29, 2012)

Allstates increase wasn't due to stove changes, after they sent their field guy out to check out the house I bought, their rates were adjusted. By alot. 



begreen said:


> On the front page of the manual it states the stove meets UL 1482-2010 test standards



Yeah I read way to many manuals saying that the stove was tested to UL 1482-1998 just that my insurance is under the impression that it can't just say that but that it must have the UL brand logo tested by UL not just conforming to their standards. 

I will install a UL conforming stove, if they don't like it, I'll take my business elsewhere.


----------



## sebring (Sep 29, 2012)

Just put in a stove. Unless you burn your house down, nobody needs to know.


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Sep 29, 2012)

this is silly, warnock hersey (actually intertek testing service (which is fully accredited by UL) does the testing (along with omni which has the same accreditation) for literally 9 of 10 stoves sold in north america today.

as i said before "UL" doesnt "test" anything, they simply write the standards and accredit the agencies which do the testing. were it not for WH and OMNI nobody i the us would have a UL listed stove.


----------



## charly (Sep 29, 2012)

I too agree, they may be cheap, but don't ever ask for anything back. You'll find out why they were cheap.   I had State Farm for over 20 years, never a claim. 2 years ago I had 2000 dollars worth of tools stolen, State Police report on what was stolen and value. Insurance company claimed no receipt's , then no money! I dropped them , had my home and all my cars through them. Told them they where a bunch of crooks! They love your money ,but think of anything they can do to get out of paying. So beware of cheap, you paying for nothing in return most likely.


----------



## remkel (Sep 30, 2012)

My insurance company did not even bother coming out when I installed the new stove. They did come out when I did my original installation.

As for Grange, time for you to get a new insurance company, but p,ease, please go forward with messing with them by asking the questions. If you could tape the conversation (with their approval, of course) and post it as a .wav file that would be awesome!


----------



## Huntindog1 (Sep 30, 2012)

Vogelzang's Tag says Tested to UL  1482


----------



## Buckeye 2012 (Sep 30, 2012)

I work for a large insurance company.  If you add the stove or insert after your policy is in place I would not say anything.  Most insurance companies now require an inspection and will surcharge you on average $250.  Some do not care, but that list of companies is twindling.  If you do not mention you have a stove or insert at the inception of the policy (in other words when you buy the policy and fill out the application), then you could be in trouble.  An insurance company would deny a claim caused by the stove (fire or electrical if there were a fan problem) on the basis of material misrepresentation. The denial will stand up in court.  In insurance companies there is not a great desire to write home owners nowadays due to profitability issues so they are always looking for every charge to add on or reasons to get off a policy. 
On the other hand I would get the stove you wanted if you are buying new.  This is the first I have heard of one wanting a testing lab to sign off.  I am familiar with Grange and know that they are not on the best footing financially right now and scrambling to get their book in order.


----------



## blades (Sep 30, 2012)

First bail on that ins co.   Second might not be them proper but their underwriter, been running into problems in that respect quite a bit lately. Snot nosed newbies that do not know squat, fresh out of school. Third do not waste your breath, time and resources trying to re- educate a closed mind system. It will just frustrate the h... out of you.


----------



## diyrye (Oct 2, 2012)

Well i ordered my vogelzang ponderosa today off northlineexpress, was cheaper than northern tools, had free shipping, and free humidifier/steamer for stove. I also ordered a double wall smooth lined, insulated, stainless liner kit from Rockford chimney supply. Some stove pipe yet, and probably a little swearing and hopefully I'll be ready to break it in.  Just gotta pull some carpet off the concrete in front of hearth to get my 18" clearance but i want to tile there eventually anyways. Thanks for all the help!


----------



## FyreBug (Oct 2, 2012)

fossil said:


> See this somewhere on the tag on the back of the appliance or run away and report the seller.
> 
> View attachment 75345


 
We are a MFG and we do not put a UL logo on the label. If we were to put a lable for every certifying agencies and their standards a stove would look like a race car with all the stickers on it. That is why an indepedent lab such as Omni, Intertek or Warnock Hersey will certify a stove to all of the above standards.

If your insurance agent wants to know specifically which standards... Open up your manual and fax them the page that list them all. If they are really anal about it, the MFG can send certification paper to them.


----------



## tfdchief (Oct 2, 2012)

fossil said:


> See this somewhere on the tag on the back of the appliance or run away and report the seller.
> 
> View attachment 75345


Even my old buck was UL listed.


----------



## Huntindog1 (Oct 2, 2012)

diyrye said:


> Well i ordered my vogelzang ponderosa today off northlineexpress, was cheaper than northern tools, had free shipping, and free humidifier/steamer for stove. I also ordered a double wall smooth lined, insulated, stainless liner kit from Rockford chimney supply. Some stove pipe yet, and probably a little swearing and hopefully I'll be ready to break it in. Just gotta pull some carpet off the concrete in front of hearth to get my 18" clearance but i want to tile there eventually anyways. Thanks for all the help!


 
Congrats on the purchase I noticed that the Vogelzang Ponderosa has 6 burn tubes and has a 87 percent efficiency rating which is good for this type stove and not being a cat stove. My Vogelzang Performer is only 76 percent efficient.

Its also interesting as I was looking at the manual at Northline Express website and this stove has a primary air control lever plus a high burn control lever which my Performer does not.


----------



## fossil (Oct 2, 2012)

FyreBug said:


> We are a MFG and we do not put a UL logo on the label...


 
Right, I got it.  Stood corrected above in the thread.  My mistake.  No "UL" logo, but something that identifies the lab which conducted the testing in the name of (under contract to) UL.  In the case of solid fuel burning appliances, this is quite often Warnock Hersey, so the lab's logo is typically found on the label, along with the verbiage that the testing was done to UL standards.


----------



## Ashful (Oct 2, 2012)

sebring said:


> Just put in a stove. Unless you burn your house down, nobody needs to know.


 
Well, by that logic... unless you burn your house down, you don't need insurance.



Buckeye 2012 said:


> I work for a large insurance company. If you add the stove or insert after your policy is in place I would not say anything.


 
Again... what happens in the event of a house fire?  Won't said insurance company attempt to deny the claim based on the fact that you installed this heating appliance without informing them, and adjusting your rate accordingly?


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Oct 3, 2012)

Huntindog1 said:


> Vogelzang's Tag says Tested to UL 1482
> 
> View attachment 75493


 

in the upper left corner of the tag is the logo for Omni the "OTL" logo, just below it is the report number. so that unit was certified by a UL accredited testing agency to the UL standard required for the listing. so yeah, its UL certified.


----------



## diyrye (Oct 3, 2012)

I and everyone here I'm sure want to avoid any fires outside the stove. With my luck, I'm just trying to cover my bases. That's why I'm going with the somewhat overkill double wall, smooth inside, insulated liner. And I am going to pickup a set of chimney brushes. I got some stage 3 creosote remover also to try to cleanup my smoke chamber before the install. I used to work with a guy who just had a stainless liner put in recently and he said "i don't know If my firewood vendor hasn't been seasoning the wood well or what but I've had two chimney fires this past year but just left them burn out because the stainless liner won't be damaged".... Wow..


----------



## firefighterjake (Oct 3, 2012)

Joful said:


> Well, by that logic... unless you burn your house down, you don't need insurance.
> 
> 
> 
> Again... what happens in the event of a house fire? Won't said insurance company attempt to deny the claim based on the fact that you installed this heating appliance without informing them, and adjusting your rate accordingly?


 
I can only speak to my parent's experience where they installed an OWB after their policy was in place and their house burned down. The insurance company screwed around for quite some time and in the end covered them . . . but denied the full house replacement coverage that they had since they had added the OWB and did not inform them.


----------



## Huntindog1 (Oct 3, 2012)

DYIRye,

My best advice is just dont burn your house down. 

Ok slap me.


----------



## Scott2373 (Oct 3, 2012)

My wife has worked for Allstate for almost 20 years now. When we added the stove there was no inspection, they just added a rider for about $20 per year. I have to add that there is NO DISCOUNT FOR EMPLOYEES, as well, because a lot of people  ask what kind of discounts we receive because she works for the company. It sounds like your agent or rep has ZERO idea what they are talking about. As far as the insurance company goes, well it's sort of like Geico - sure the rates are cheap, but just wait when you have a claim. Good luck getting compensated. You'll have to fight tooth and nail to get them to acknowledge that it falls within their coverage. Then if they do in fact pay out, watch how much your rates increase. Do yourself a favor and find another insurance company because it's just nor worth the hassle in the long run. I recognize the name, and IIRC, my wife has had dealings with them and not positive ones. Good luck!


----------



## Sprinter (Oct 3, 2012)

firefighterjake said:


> I can only speak to my parent's experience where they installed an OWB after their policy was in place and their house burned down. The insurance company screwed around for quite some time and in the end covered them . . . but denied the full house replacement coverage that they had since they had added the OWB and did not inform them.


Was your parent's fire in any way caused by the OWB? I would think that the company would have to show that the appliance was in some way involved with the cause to deny a claim just based on having one.

For any insurance or legal professionals out there: Would a homeowner's policy have to specifically state a requirement to inform the company of the installation of a wood stove for the company to base a denial on failure to inform? I'm going to read my policy to see if there is such a provision.


----------



## Ashful (Oct 4, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> I'm going to read my policy to see if there is such a provision.



What did you find?


----------



## Sprinter (Oct 4, 2012)

Joful said:


> What did you find?


Oh, oh.  Got busy.  I'll try to dig it up today.


----------



## Eater309 (Oct 4, 2012)

Here's my two cents worth and my insurance companies also.  I was told more house fires are caused by Christmas lights than by wood stoves so there wasn't any increase in rates or special conditions set. Nice.  Hope I don't have to insure for Christmas lights now...... lol


----------



## Sprinter (Oct 4, 2012)

Eater309 said:


> Here's my two cents worth and my insurance companies also. I was told more house fires are caused by Christmas lights than by wood stoves so there wasn't any increase in rates or special conditions set. Nice. Hope I don't have to insure for Christmas lights now...... lol


When I was a firefighter in Eastern Wa, we had chimney fires, but no extension fires as a result.  No damage, although that was just my experience and obviously bad ones do happen!  The lights issue is interesting.  I've seen studies that show that lights themselves don't get hot enough to ignite even dry trees, but overloading the electrical circuits and improper use of cords for the lights cause lots of fires.  Maybe the other firefighters here have stories, or maybe another thread is in order.


----------



## Huntindog1 (Oct 4, 2012)

Its my understanding that those battery chargers for laptops and other such things are really bad, usually plugged in an outlet and never unplugged , they dont go off they stay warm to hot to touch all the time till something shorts out. They are usually plugged into a wall out let just underneath the curtains.


----------



## Ashful (Oct 4, 2012)

I agree with Sprinter... likely a good topic for the Inglenook.  That said, when my father used to do fire inspection, I remember toasters and toaster ovens being the root cause of many (most?) of the fires he was hired to investigate.


----------



## firefighterjake (Oct 4, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> Was your parent's fire in any way caused by the OWB? I would think that the company would have to show that the appliance was in some way involved with the cause to deny a claim just based on having one.
> 
> . . ..


 
Actually yes . . . they pin pointed the cause to either being a fault with the electrical system that he wired himself (Mistake 1 -- possibly) or a hot ember that rolled out (Mistake 1 -- possibly) and went up against the wooden structure he built around the OWB (Mistake 2 -- namely being a wooden structure with the wood going right to the flush slab) and when the fire started the structure was just a few feet from the house (Mistake 3.)

They have since rebuilt . . . and he now has a pellet boiler . . . enclosed in a wooden structure . . . just a few feet from the house. D'oh!


----------



## Sprinter (Oct 4, 2012)

firefighterjake said:


> Actually yes . . . they pin pointed the cause to either being a fault with the electrical system that he wired himself (Mistake 1 -- possibly) or a hot ember that rolled out (Mistake 1 -- possibly) and went up against the wooden structure he built around the OWB (Mistake 2 -- namely being a wooden structure with the wood going right to the flush slab) and when the fire started the structure was just a few feet from the house (Mistake 3.)
> 
> They have since rebuilt . . . and he now has a pellet boiler . . . enclosed in a wooden structure . . . just a few feet from the house. D'oh!


How unfortunate.  Thanks for sharing that.  Maybe it will help someone else.


----------



## Sprinter (Oct 4, 2012)

Huntindog1 said:


> Its my understand that those battery chargers for laptops and other such things are really bad, usually plugged in an outlet and never unplugged , they dont go off they stay warm to hot to touch all the time till something shorts out. They are usually plugged into a wall out let just underneath the curtains.


They do get pretty warm.  The trick is to make sure they don't get covered up by a carpet or something so they can't dissipate heat.  Same with extension cords.  Never put an extension cord under anything.  Plenty of insurance claims for that kind of thing.


----------

