# High cost of repairs to Geothermal



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 16, 2010)

As I invest more and more in my 16 year old Waterfurnace Geothermal heat pump I wonder how much is too much.

In January of 2009 I had to have a new 3-speed blower motor and control board installed at about $1,200.  The work was done by a factory qualified dealer.  Due to the age of the HP a direct replacement blower was not available (GE  stopped making them - shame on Waterfurnace for not stocking some before they were discontinued) thus a new control board was also needed, part of the reason for the high cost.  Two repairs have been needed on an emergency basis, middle of winter in the first case, above, and middle of summer in the second case, below. I guess two repairs in 16 years isn't bad, but look at the cost of the repairs.

Yesterday the HP went out and the diagnostic panel indicated a loss of flow from the closed loop heat exchanger.  The cost of replacing to two pumps (two speed HP system) was $1,457 (Ouch).  This means I now have over $2500 in repairs in two years - no repairs in the first 14 years.  The only other big thing that could go is the compressor, and I asked for a replacement/update cost.  I'd like to have this information while I have time to shop around.  The compressor will no doubt fail when it is needed most.  Hum $2,500/16 years is about $160 per year, not really too bad and I hope I can get another 4 or 5 years before any other major repairs are required...that all depends on the compressor which runs very smoothly.

I'd be interested in what good quality air-to-air Trane or other brand name 3 ton unit costs, installed in a system that has the proper air ducts - is a simple replacement of the existing cabinet.  I would hate to throw away my ground loop, I think it would today cost about $12.000 - and it has a lot of life left, but I'm looking for some comparison/competitive numbers so I'm not again in the position of "Pay X, or don't get your unit fixed today".  Emergency repair is not a "buyer's position".  

From what I know without the price yet is the new plug-and-play HP (scroll compressor and electronics) plugged into my existing Geoghermal infrastructure will likely cost over $10,000.  I'll also get a price for a whole new cabinet, the dealer said that would likely qualify for some tax credits and even though my current system delivers an EER of about 20 he said a new unit could give me about 30.  I think that would require me to throw away my just replaced loop pumps for the newer higher efficiency designs... sorry for the ramble, if you've got any numbers on what you paid for a geothermal or air-to-air I'd like to have the reference.


----------



## oldspark (Jul 16, 2010)

My freinds brother has about $30,000 in his about 5 years ago, from what I hear that is about normal for this area, I have no details about the system. I am thinking about putting in an air to air and the most efficient one I could find was about 6 thousand dollars, not sure how much to install. Looking forward to more answeres on this subject.


----------



## begreen (Jul 16, 2010)

We put in an air to air system in our house in 2006. It has worked quite well and can cover us down to about 24 °F which is much better than I expected. The house is old, but we have worked a lot to tighten it up and insulate, including the crawlspace. Our climate is mild and we have long shoulder seasons, so for us it made sense. 45 °F and below we are burning wood anyhow, so most of the time the unit is working within its ideal range. The cost to install was about $9000 including tax. But that was with me putting in the new branch lines and helping insulate the trunk ductwork. The HP is a high efficiency 2-stage American Standard unit. http://www.americanstandardair.com/HomeOwner/Products/HeatPumps/Heritage16C.aspx

Another thing that helps its efficiency is that we paid close attention to minimizing heat loss on the duct runs, by sealing all joints and thorough insulation. And they now run through a conditioned crawl space that doesn't get below 60 °F regardless of outside temps. The heat pump costs about $30-60/month to run @ .10/kwhr. Compared to the propane system that was previously heating the house... well, there's no comparison, because we did a lot of other work when the system went in. But bottom line costs were about $3400 a year to heat this old box. Now it's in the hundreds, and that includes when I have to buy wood.


----------



## Medman (Jul 16, 2010)

Ground Loop was quoted to me in Aug 2008.  $20,000 for the cabinet, another $10,000 for ground loop and associated piping.  The cost of the unit is based on the high cost of scroll compressors - not manufactured in enough volume yet, so the price is high.

I did not go this route because the efficiency was not there - the ground loop temps here are not high enough to extract enough heat to be worthwhile.  This is changing as design of the HP systems improves, and I may revisit the idea in the future.


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 16, 2010)

Thanks, just the kind of data I'm looking for.  The $30,000 cost is about three times what I paid 16 years ago, about what expected.  I got about 25% kick-back from the local electric company, they paid for most of the cost of the ground loop, in my cast two 250' vertical loops, put in by the guys who drill for wells.  I have enough property for a horizontal loop but the dealer said he couldn't quote an exact price with that approach because I'm in a hilly area with a lot of slate and other rocks in the ground.

The bad news for me, on testing the new high priced loop pumps I determined they were running constantly, both of them.  Some measurements, including the electric power meter (with a 7.2 wh wheel) I determined the pumps were using about 200 watts.  The only way to shut them down in the circuit breaker, even turning the thermostat off will not shut the pumps down.  Beside some extra wear, I figure the running when not needed will cost between $150 and $200 a year at 18 cents a KWH.  We're a lot higher "Back East", than in the Puget Sound area... speaking of that area, when I lived in Seattle and going to the U of Washington I paid 0.7 cents per KWH for electricity.  The all electric (not heating) house used so little $$ each month I got billed every two months.  Well enough reminiscing, if electric costs were 1 cent a KWH I'd just use resistive heating, and an air-to-air cooling.  

The dealer said: "do you remember me  saying something "popped" when the new pumps first started"?  He admitted he should have checked further but when the pumps worked with the demand for cooling he figured all was well.  As he didn't have a screwdriver in the electronic bay when the pop took place, I was standing near by, I can't claim it was hit fault.  He's getting a price on a new circuit board.  He is also getting me a price on a retrofit upgrade to a scroll compressor (soft switch two speed, not yet a variable speed) which would include a new (more modern) control/circuit board.  My real reason for looking at cost, I'm getting ready for him to tell me a new circuit board is $2,000 or more.  So, if retrofit to a newer compress and control electronics cost under $10,000 that may be the way to go, given what I've learned from this post.  He said the newest system 3 ton unit has a cooling EER of about 30 or a 50% increase in efficiency over my already efficient (20) unit. Give I replace the fan 1.5 years ago and the loop pumps yesterday, an retrofit of the compressor and electronic would put me at more-or-less a new unit.  Adding estimates and sunk repair cost I'd have about $15,000 in what is effective a new system.  The downer is he said a new system would qualify for some federal rebates that are up to a third of the cost.


----------



## Jerry_NJ (Jul 16, 2010)

Speaking of tax rebates (and the good new is, I understand, it is a tax credit, one has to owe the tax that they get back as a credit - no cash payouts).

Tax Credit: Credit Details: 30% of the cost, up to $500 per .5 kW of power capacity
Expires:December 31, 2016

Is what I find on what appears to be a government web site.  And, the lack of logic and negative rewards seems to indicate it is from our elected and staff brain trust in Washington DC.

What does the 0.5 KW of power capacity about?  It seem to me a rebate should scaled against efficiency, not usage.

For example if for A/C I buy a unit with an EER of 30, rather than one with an EER of 18 (say, and they both qualify), the 18EER uses more energy and gets a larger rebate. A numerical example:  if the BTU rating is 40,000 BTU in each case the 30EER purchase qualifies for 1.33KW or "2 credits" (rounded down assumed) while the 18EER uses 2.2KW or "4 credits"... our brain trust in Washington gives the guy who does the most good $1,000 in credits and the other less green guy $2,000 in credits, twice as much.

What am I missing?


----------



## semipro (Jul 20, 2010)

We've been using a 20+ year old ground source Florida Heat Pump system for the past 10 years with very little trouble.  I had to replace one contactor in the emergency heat backup unit (resistance heat) and one water control valve.  I'm not posting to boost (I didn't engineer it nor buy it) but wanted to point out that these systems can be dependable and inexpensive to maintain and operate.


----------

