# Stihl Dealer Flagged by "Papa" Stihl for Selling on Ebay



## Boog (Dec 30, 2012)

One of the ebay sellers I have been buying some parts from just emailed me and told me that he received a letter from "headquarters" requiring him to remove all his items from ebay by 1/1/13 or face loss of his Dealership.  The letter reminded him that official "Dealers" are not allowed to sell over the internet.  He was obviously quite put out since lots of "dealers" are selling there and he feels he has been singled out.  I was not aware of this policy, and if it is true, where are all the folks there getting their cach of OEM cheap Stihl stuff.  He indicated to me that he would have to remove his store from ebay, and also what "his next move on this would be", but it would be best if I did not disclose that here.

Anyone else aware of this?  It may be common knowledge to many of you guys but I was not aware of this policy.  I've gotten a lot of less expensive OEM stuff over the internet.


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## oldogy (Dec 30, 2012)

The non selling on electronic media is common rule among power sport manufacturers.


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## Freakingstang (Dec 30, 2012)

Stihl has always been like that.  When I need parts I can't find on the Bay, I head back home to amish country and get quite a few parts at or near cost from my old dealership.


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## MasterMech (Dec 30, 2012)

Boog Powell said:


> One of the ebay sellers I have been buying some parts from just emailed me and told me that he received a letter from "headquarters" requiring him to remove all his items from ebay by 1/1/13 or face loss of his Dealership. The letter reminded him that official "Dealers" are not allowed to sell over the internet. He was obviously quite put out since lots of "dealers" are selling there and he feels he has been singled out. I was not aware of this policy, and if it is true, where are all the folks there getting their cach of OEM cheap Stihl stuff. He indicated to me that he would have to remove his store from ebay, and also what "his next move on this would be", but it would be best if I did not disclose that here.
> 
> Anyone else aware of this? It may be common knowledge to many of you guys but I was not aware of this policy. I've gotten a lot of less expensive OEM stuff over the internet.


 
Yup. They don't mess around either. You do not sell saws via mail, phone, or internet. Period. No parts over the internet.

It really is a good policy, good for the industry as a whole, so long as we desire brick and mortar stores where we can get support for our toys that is. Problem with the internet is that somebody will start selling parts/equipment at razor thin margins because they can (and because they don't have the overhead a brick and mortar dealer has) and then every savvy buyer out there stops buying from his dealer and a very significant portion of their income disappears. That results in a net reduction of jobs in the industry, and starts to erode the number of skilled workers available and the funds to train replacements. So the manufacturer has to adjust by making a product that does not require skilled service techs to repair, or is cost-effective to replace rather than repair. Enter the box-store retail model. 

I agree that getting low-cost parts over the 'net may be awesome for you and me now, but I also fully support Stihl's decision to protect it's dealers.


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## BravoWhiskey (Dec 31, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> I agree that getting low-cost parts over the 'net may be awesome for you and me now, but I also fully support Stihl's decision to protect it's dealers.


Good on them, it's their own funeral. I remember Digital Equipment Corporation used to play that game. They had the best stuff and could charge whatever they liked through their own vertically integrated organization, and the prices were truly unbelievable. There were some successful lawsuits brought by independent service companies to make parts available through third parties, but on the whole good old DEC managed to maintain their stranglehold nonetheless. Well they're all but gone now and it's too bad, their technical achievements were truly remarkable. Meanwhile my snotty little Echo and my chip slinging XP just won't die. You say yeah but Stihl makes better products and suppose for the sake of argument that it's true, if that's the way they want to do business the quality of their products is irrelevant to me.


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## fabsroman (Dec 31, 2012)

I am fine with the policy as long as it is applied across the board to every dealer. If Stihl is favoring its bigger dealers and allowing them to sell over the internet, which it seems they might based upon this e-bay seller's issue with Stihl, then I have an issue with it. Certain bicycle manufacturers have the same policy, but I can still find a dealer here or there that will sell over the internet. Most of them are overseas though.

At the end of the day, I am rather mechanically inclined. I don't need anybody to fix my saws, bikes, cars, etc., so buying parts on the internet cheap is great for me. However, I still like to be able to see the saws at the dealer before I spend several hundred dollars on them. Then again, I bought $2,500 and $3,200 carbon fiber bicycle frames over the internet without ever having a test ride on either of them.

It sucks, but I think the brick and mortar stores will eventually fall by the wayside. Was all ready to buy a Gorilla hauling cart from Home Depot online, because it was only available online, and they were out of stock online. Ended up buying the Tractor Supply equivalent for the same price and was able to pick it up that day.

Pluses and minuses to everything I guess. Got to use the cart for the past 3 days and really put it through its paces.


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## Hearth Mistress (Dec 31, 2012)

I learned this the hard way when trying to get chains (and that @#%$ bar screw we dropped changing the chain) for my mini boss after Hurricane Sandy. NO ONE anywhere in 200 miles had anything, not even a saw to buy! Using my cell phone, tried to find them on line, not there. I ended up calling my family in OH to send me chains and that stupid screw. I get the dealer regulations but when a super storm wipes out several states, it's tough. I love the mom n pop place I bought my saw and go there before any of the big box stores but even they laughed when I asked for Stihl parts after the storm, they laughed hard


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## Boog (Dec 31, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> Yup. They don't mess around either. You do not sell saws via mail, phone, or internet. Period. No parts over the internet........................................ It really is a good policy, good for the industry as a whole, _so long as we desire brick and mortar stores where we can get support for our toys that is_.


 
I really have to disagree with you on this one, because what you said above is the whole counterpoint. I don't want brick and mortar stores to regulate my life, that's not the world we live in today. I have no problem with Stihl only selling their new saws through dealers, totally agree with that, just like car dealerships. And when I do really need their support, that's where I will go (after first talking with you guys). But when it comes to ordering an OEM air filter, a new sprocket or side cover, a new bar or chain, maybe even a new slug/jug/gasket or fuel line, they will not survive the long haul if they do not get with the 21 century and make these items available through direct marketing. Dealerships that modernize and get with the times will survive and thrive, ones that don't will be replaced by someone who is eager to modernize and grow. Some car dealerships are now selling OEM auto parts online. I have several Stihl dealers in the greater area around me. None of them sell just Stihls, rather, they all sell a wide variety of items with Stihls being just a small part of what they do. That sales percentage will get smaller and smaller if companies like Stihl don't get with the times. Whether we like it or not, this is a global company and a global economy. If a guy in Italy can sell and ship me my OEM part cheaper than anyone else, and he has the reviews of his service to back up his price, he'll get my order. If my local guy 5 miles away can match that price, or at least come reasonably close to it, he'll get my business. But if my local guy is going to gouge me with Stihl's parts pricing policies, I'll go elsewere. Sorry, but that's just the way I feel.


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

fabsroman said:


> If Stihl is favoring its bigger dealers and allowing them to sell over the internet


 
Not that I'm aware of.  I worked for this area's biggest dealer and we had to follow the rules just like everyone else.



fabsroman said:


> It sucks, but I think the brick and mortar stores will eventually fall by the wayside.


 
I doubt it. I think for equipment at least, and other things that are large/expensive to ship, brick and mortar will still be around.



fabsroman said:


> At the end of the day, I am rather mechanically inclined. I don't need anybody to fix my saws, bikes, cars, etc., so buying parts on the internet cheap is great for me


And that puts you, me, and most of the regulars on this forum in the minority of folks who buy these products.


BravoWhiskey said:


> Good on them, it's their own funeral. I remember Digital Equipment Corporation used to play that game. They had the best stuff and could charge whatever they liked through their own vertically integrated organization, and the prices were truly unbelievable. There were some successful lawsuits brought by independent service companies to make parts available through third parties, but on the whole good old DEC managed to maintain their stranglehold nonetheless. Well they're all but gone now and it's too bad, their technical achievements were truly remarkable. Meanwhile my snotty little Echo and my chip slinging XP just won't die. You say yeah but Stihl makes better products and suppose for the sake of argument that it's true, if that's the way they want to do business the quality of their products is irrelevant to me.


 
Heh, I remember the Alpha processors (too young to remember the good stuff  )and what they cost...   OPE is a completely different game than semi-conductors, both the products and the customer base. 

We all complain about how stuff is built cheap, meant to replace rather than repair, and the staff wherever we bought it knows nothing about the product they sold us.  Following the flock to massive internet sales volumes at ridiculously low margins or putting their product on the box store shelf right next to their competitors (even if it's not the top-of-the-line models) isn't going to boost their product quality or sell more equipment.  Heck they're already #1 for handheld power equipment in the US.  Look at what happened to Deere's reputation when they built a line of lawn tractors squarely targeted to sell out of the big home improvement stores.


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

Boog Powell said:


> I have no problem with Stihl only selling their new saws through dealers, totally agree with that,


 
Problem there Boog is that there is little profit to be made with serialized (carries a serial #) wholegoods.  Really, in todays' OPE business, it's all about parts and service.  So you want to pull the plug on roughly 50% of every dealers income?

Cars are tough to compare to OPE because aftermarket parts equivalents (or superior replacements) are easy and cheap.  You can walk into your local NAPA (or whatever) and buy the same part the dealer sells, often for half the price.  Outside of filters and sparkplugs, there are relatively few aftermarket parts available for OPE that truly is equivalent or superior to OEM.



Boog Powell said:


> That sales percentage will get smaller and smaller if companies like Stihl don't get with the times.


 
I disagree, more and more folks see the benefit of buying local, commercial customers need/desire near instant part availability for much of their equipment, something I don't foresee the internet supplying anytime soon.  Not everybody is as well educated in their equipment as you and I are, so the need for parts lookup service and general advice will continue.  The internet won't look up a part for you, you still have to know exactly what you're looking for to match it up in an IPL and order it by part #.  Remember that you and I (people well capable of self-service) are still in the minority of folks who purchase this type of equipment.




Boog Powell said:


> If a guy in Italy can sell and ship me my OEM part cheaper than anyone else, and he has the reviews of his service to back up his price, he'll get my order. If my local guy 5 miles away can match that price, or at least come reasonably close to it, he'll get my business. But if my local guy is going to gouge me with Stihl's parts pricing policies, I'll go elsewere. Sorry, but that's just the way I feel.


 
Because that guy in Italy may have zilch for overhead, selling parts he stores in his basement/garage, working from a home office with an internet connection.  He doesn't have to pay employees, commercial rent/mortgage/insurance, extra utilities, etc and so forth.  So long as Stihl maintains the level playing field amongst dealers, they'll do just fine.  Somebody is bound to get greedy and try to make an easy buck from internet sales, just human nature, so Stihl drops the hammer, gently for a first offense. 

It's not price gouging either.  That would be doubling the price of chain for a hurricane or other good-for-business type storm.  It's what the market will bear.  By being strict with their no internet sales policy, Stihl ensures that the market remains fair to both dealer and consumer (remember, it's not like the dealer doesn't have competition). Low prices might be great for your immediate satisfaction, but is that really sustainable long-term?  What's the point of manufacturing a high-end product when all everyone wants is fast, bad, and cheap?


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## blades (Dec 31, 2012)

If Stilh is so High and Mighty,  why are they producing 3 lines of saws, of which the bottom ,johnny homeowner- box store version , mid grade - northern tool, Tsc similar and a pro line by their own admission?  Putting a lock on parts sales usually comes back to bite you from behind. Operating on a brand name reconigtion only lasts so long before the consumer finds an equivalent unit from a different mfg. that is less expensive to maintain.  A classic example is the auto industry with the invasion of the Asian units in the 70's and 80's.


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## fabsroman (Dec 31, 2012)

MasterMech,

I really do think you are wrong about brick and mortar stores sticking around as far as selling goods are concerned to the average consumer. Now, providing repair services is an entirely different thing, but for goods, forgetaboutit. It is just so much more convenient to deal with stuff over the internet nowadays. I can find gun parts that I NEVER would have been able to get from my local dealer. Same goes for bike parts. A lot of my cycling stuff has actually come from Europe. When I can buy Giordana cycling clothing for half of what it costs in the US simply by ordering online from Italy or Great Britain, you can bet that is what I will be doing. Same goes for Colnago frames. They are the creme de le creme when it comes to bikes, and while Colnago does not generally allow the sale of their frames via the internet, there are always a couple shops selling what Colnago calls gray market frames. Thing is, these gray market dealers are selling a ton of them.

Ultimately, if Stihl makes a really good saw, sells it and parts over the internet, but still trains repair people and gives an incentive to its dealers to carry the line just for show, I think it will do just fine. Heck, a lot of the stuff I buy, I buy based upon internet reviews of products and what I hear from people on chatboards like this. Don't know a single person in real life (versus internet life), that owns a MS261 or MS660, so the only person I could even talk to about the saws would have been the dealer. Same goes for Colnagos. Don't know a single real life cycling buddy that owns one. Heck, I bought a ton of Stihl chains through e-bay that were less than half price of what the dealer wanted to charge me, and the prices on chains varied a good deal when I was asking about them on this forum.

Eventually, we will buy cars online with the exact options we want in them and the exact color we want, delivered to our doorstep.


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

blades said:


> If Stilh is so High and Mighty, why are they producing 3 lines of saws, of which the bottom ,johnny homeowner- box store version , mid grade - northern tool, Tsc similar and a pro line by their own admission?


 
What's wrong with building a quality saw priced so that an average homeowner can afford it?  I for one find it refreshing that saws like the MS170 and MS180 (Both under $200) are simple, reliable machines that have been serving homeowners for many, many years since they came out as the 017, 018.  Just because something is labeled "homeowner" doesn't mean it's junk.  How many folks here run MS290's (or 029's?) ?  Is that saw a piece of junk because it's a "mid-range" product?  No way, it's one of the best saws out there for under $400 and it's a design that was introduced over two decades ago!  Their $150 BG55 blower was thumping the chit of the competition's machines that cost much more and weren't any more powerful or ergonomic.  That blower also has survived many commercial landscapering crews despite being a "Homeowner" unit.



blades said:


> A classic example is the auto industry with the invasion of the Asian units in the 70's and 80's.


 
The auto industry at the end of the 70's was producing over-weight turds for product.  They got lousy gas mileage and were ridiculously under-powered for their size.  They got what they had coming to them.  Stihl is not coasting on brand-name recognition by any means.  I'm not saying that everything Stihl does is gold-plated, but they currently have an awesome line-up of tools that are lightweight and powerful, offering solutions for everyone, homeowners through professionals.  That's pretty rare in a business where it's common to have a few bright spots in your product line but a few turds as well.  (Husqvarna snowblowers anybody?  )


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## firefighterjake (Dec 31, 2012)

fabsroman said:


> MasterMech,
> 
> I really do think you are wrong about brick and mortar stores sticking around as far as selling goods are concerned to the average consumer. Now, providing repair services is an entirely different thing, but for goods, forgetaboutit. It is just so much more convenient to deal with stuff over the internet nowadays. I can find gun parts that I NEVER would have been able to get from my local dealer. Same goes for bike parts. A lot of my cycling stuff has actually come from Europe. When I can buy Giordana cycling clothing for half of what it costs in the US simply by ordering online from Italy or Great Britain, you can bet that is what I will be doing. Same goes for Colnago frames. They are the creme de le creme when it comes to bikes, and while Colnago does not generally allow the sale of their frames via the internet, there are always a couple shops selling what Colnago calls gray market frames. Thing is, these gray market dealers are selling a ton of them.
> 
> ...


 
Pretty sure you can do that now . . . or pretty much do most everything from home.

The last vehicle I purchased I pretty much specced everything out and sent a request to the various dealers asking for their out the door price. I then went to the nearest dealership with the best price and did the paperwork after a short test drive . . . although I probably could have skipped the test drive since I had already test drove a similar vehicle a week or two earlier. I'm guessing if push came to shove some folks could even by-pass going to the dealership for the paperwork.


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## Paulywalnut (Dec 31, 2012)

fabsroman said:


> MasterMech,
> 
> I really do think you are wrong about brick and mortar stores sticking around as far as selling goods are concerned to the average consumer. Now, providing repair services is an entirely different thing, but for goods, forgetaboutit. It is just so much more convenient to deal with stuff over the internet nowadays. I can find gun parts that I NEVER would have been able to get from my local dealer. Same goes for bike parts. A lot of my cycling stuff has actually come from Europe. When I can buy Giordana cycling clothing for half of what it costs in the US simply by ordering online from Italy or Great Britain, you can bet that is what I will be doing. Same goes for Colnago frames. They are the creme de le creme when it comes to bikes, and while Colnago does not generally allow the sale of their frames via the internet, there are always a couple shops selling what Colnago calls gray market frames. Thing is, these gray market dealers are selling a ton of them.
> 
> ...


 Hey! A woodburner and a cyclist. Me too. I do like the treatment of my stihl dealer. They are trained well on their product.
Not sure if you bought a saw on the internet they would be so gracious. especially if stihl won't honor the warranty on an internet sale.


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

fabsroman said:


> Ultimately, if Stihl makes a really good saw, sells it and parts over the internet, but still trains repair people and gives an incentive to its dealers to carry the line just for show, I think it will do just fine.


 
But that's the point fabs.  The internet retail model slashes product margins to razor thin levels, sustainable only by internet retailers.  It will forever drive prices lower, which to you in the short term, seems like a good deal.  But in order to keep pounding down the price, product quality will be compromised until we're buying orange and white Wild Things.  And if we destroy margin on parts, then their is less $$ to train those skilled repair techs needed to maintain a quality product.  Ideally nothing would ever break and people like me should be useless.    Plus, how many shops carry Poulan exclusively and provide parts and extensive repair capabilities?  Not many, because the price of the product makes replacement more economical than repair.  Poulan is an excellent example of what kind of product you'll end up with with box-store/internet retail strategies.  Are they awful? Sometimes but they do cut a lot of wood in this country.  The most expensive repair I've ever done on one is a replacement bar and chain.


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

Paulywalnut said:


> Not sure if you bought a saw on the internet they would be so gracious. especially if stihl won't honor the warranty on an internet sale.


 
Smart dealers would be. Educating consumers is good for business. 

Brings up one more point - A dealer hands the customer (or is supposed to) a fully assembled, properly tuned and adjusted machine.  Let's see the internet do that.  I've heard occasional stories of people getting something that was assembled wrong (just ask SmokinJ but that's no fault of Stihl Inc.  If everybody is doing what they are supposed to, you can't buy a Stihl that has a problem right out of the box.


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## Boog (Dec 31, 2012)

Buying tires is another good example of the changing times.  The brick and mortar folks had that market tied up till "Tire Rack.com", and other outlet places came along.  As soon as I found out that I could buy superior rated tires from there, brands/sizes/models that the local guys weren't even stocking, they immediately got my business.  Although the margin of savings has decreased from what it was years ago, I can still have the UPS lady deliver the best tires money can buy to my door, then take them over to my "small little local service guy" and give him my business to mount and spin balance them, for less than what the big brick and mortar place will charge me.

As far as Stihl dealers, and Stihl's policies goes, I hold no allegiance to them either.  They are just Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, and Yokohama to me.  We are talking about German saws here!    If that local Stihl dealer is going to loose 50% of his profit to have to compete on a level playing field, he had better expand his business into other areas.  The turning point for me came when I went to my dealer to buy 2 new 46mm rings for the 191T I was rebuilding.  Of course he didn't have them in stock, I didn't really expect that he would.  He said that they were $26 and would take about a week to get them in.  I about hit the floor when I went to pick them up and he said my total was $52 plus tax!  I had thought he meant $26 for both, not $26 each!  That was the last straw for me.  I'm sorry, but $52 for a pair of 46mm rings is price gouging by Stihl in my book.


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

Boog Powell said:


> We are talking about German saws here!


 
Only from the MS440/441 (And the MS201?) on up. Everything else is built right here in the USA. 



Boog Powell said:


> I'm sorry, but $52 for a pair of 46mm rings is price gouging by Stihl in my book.


 
Did you try another dealer?


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## cygnus (Dec 31, 2012)

Interesting points here. I'm an occasional user cutting a few cords a year. I also work on all my equipment myself. That's exactly why I have 3 huskys in the garage. It's a whole lot easier for me. 

That said, I really have to question any company's policy of 'no Internet sales'. Really?  No internet?!?! That seems like a very bad long term strategy. Only time will tell.


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## raybonz (Dec 31, 2012)

Boog Powell said:


> Buying tires is another good example of the changing times. The brick and mortar folks had that market tied up till "Tire Rack.com", and other outlet places came along. As soon as I found out that I could buy superior rated tires from there, brands/sizes/models that the local guys weren't even stocking, they immediately got my business. Although the margin of savings has decreased from what it was years ago, I can still have the UPS lady deliver the best tires money can buy to my door, then take them over to my "small little local service guy" and give him my business to mount and spin balance them, for less than what the big brick and mortar place will charge me.
> 
> As far as Stihl dealers, and Stihl's policies goes, I hold no allegiance to them either. They are just Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, and Yokohama to me. We are talking about German saws here! If that local Stihl dealer is going to loose 50% of his profit to have to compete on a level playing field, he had better expand his business into other areas. The turning point for me came when I went to my dealer to buy 2 new 46mm rings for the 191T I was rebuilding. Of course he didn't have them in stock, I didn't really expect that he would. He said that they were $26 and would take about a week to get them in. I about hit the floor when I went to pick them up and he said my total was $52 plus tax! I had thought he meant $26 for both, not $26 each! That was the last straw for me. I'm sorry, but $52 for a pair of 46mm rings is price gouging by Stihl in my book.


My old Stihl 023 is made in USA not Germany..


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## DanCorcoran (Dec 31, 2012)

Since I have two cents, I'll throw them in. I believe we are in a period of transition. I believe that for many products (not all), we will eventually find that there will be "showrooms" (handling many different products and manufacturers) where you can go to handle, try out, examine products which will then be delivered to your door within 24 hours (and perhaps less). These showrooms will be supported by manufacturers and/or consumer sales. This may take 5 years, or 10 years, but I think it will eventually happen. Right now, a friend down the street who is legally blind orders his groceries from WalMart and they are delivered free the next day.


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## Boog (Dec 31, 2012)

raybonz said:


> My old Stihl 023 is made in USA not Germany..


 
As both you and MasterMech have pointed out, I am glad to hear that the majority of my hoard of Stihls was made here in the USA. I do give consideration to buying USA made things, but it is not the top factor on my list. I've been driving Toyotas (with a couple used Jeeps thrown in) since the early 80's. The 2000 E-150 conversion van in the drive was not bought because it was a Ford, but rather because some enterprising dudes out in LA pimped it out to what it is today. But its still a Ford, its brake lines went when it had only 96,000 miles. My last Rav4 went 210,000 before a brake line finally went. I expect similar service from the 2002 Highlander I'm currently driving. I'm approaching 105,000 with absolutly nothing wrong to date.

All this has little to do with the thrust of my original posting. MasterMech last asked "Did I try another Dealer" after being charged $52 for 2 rings. My answer is "Yes, all the numerous Dealers on ebay selling reasonably priced OEM stuff". Hence, we come full circle.  Happy New Years folks!


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## Corey (Dec 31, 2012)

One good reason I will never buy a Stihl.  If I can't tear the thing down, find the broken part, peck around on a few computer keys and have a reasonably priced OEM part delivered to my door in a few days, I don't want it.  If the gurus at Stihl think I need to make a 50+ mile round trip to a dealer, let them diagnose the issue and order the part, then make another 50 mile round trip days later to pick it up, I will never buy into that philosophy.


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## Boog (Dec 31, 2012)

Boog Powell said:


> "Yes, all the numerous Dealers on ebay selling reasonably priced OEM stuff


 


Corey said:


> One good reason I will never buy a Stihl. If I can't tear the thing down, find the broken part, peck around on a few computer keys and have a reasonably priced OEM part delivered to my door in a few days, I don't want it.


 
Its no problem Corey.  I just walked out to the mail box and returned with 3 packages, all from "Dealers on Ebay".  Each is from a different seller, and the final prices with shipping are significantly less than what my local dealers want.  The free market system will win out in the end.


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## fabsroman (Dec 31, 2012)

firefighterjake said:


> Pretty sure you can do that now . . . or pretty much do most everything from home.
> 
> The last vehicle I purchased I pretty much specced everything out and sent a request to the various dealers asking for their out the door price. I then went to the nearest dealership with the best price and did the paperwork after a short test drive . . . although I probably could have skipped the test drive since I had already test drove a similar vehicle a week or two earlier. I'm guessing if push came to shove some folks could even by-pass going to the dealership for the paperwork.


 
lol - I did that on my F350 just over 9 years ago. However, I just did a search through Ford's website for the dealers with the truck I wanted on their lots, and then started e-mailing them about it. Did the same thing on my wife's Focus that we bought 2 1/2 years ago. However, that one involved a little more haggling at the dealership. Me, I just want to spec it all out, be given a price, hit "order" and have the vehicle show up in my driveway. We will eventually get there.


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## fabsroman (Dec 31, 2012)

Paulywalnut said:


> Hey! A woodburner and a cyclist. Me too. I do like the treatment of my stihl dealer. They are trained well on their product.
> Not sure if you bought a saw on the internet they would be so gracious. especially if stihl won't honor the warranty on an internet sale.


 
Yeah, I heard the same "warranty" issue from the local Colnago dealer regarding my frames. He was pissed that I had bought them from Switzerland and had to drive home the fact that the warranty would be 1 year only versus 3 years from an authorized Colnago dealer. Well, here is my point on that. The Cristallo from Switzerland was $2,500 versus the dealer's $3,600 and the C50 was $3,200 versus the dealer's $4,500. I saved $2,400 between the two frames. Enough to almost buy another frame should one of them break between years 1 and 3. Here we are 7 years after the purchase of the Cristallo and almost 5 years after the purchase of the C50 and not a problem whatsoever. Tried to buy some spokes from that same local dealer and the service was terrible. Same goes for some replacement parts for my Campagnolo Record brakes. I had stripped the small titanium barrel adjuster and the only place I was able to find it was through the internet. That reminds me, the entire lecture was the result of me taking the Cristallo there to buy a headset and have them install it. The price on the headset was 33% more than over the internet and they scratched the clearcoat on the frame. After that experience, I spent $400 on headset installation and removal tools so I would never have to take my bikes to the shop to be worked on again (i.e., the headset was the only thing I did not have the tools for).

Had a warranty issue with a Browning gun once, and the manufacturer decided to deny my claim. So, that was the last Browning I ever bought. Have only bought Ruger rifles and Beretta/Benelli shotguns since then, and it has been 20 years since then. Had minor warranty issues on 3 Beretta guns, and they took care of them right away, even swapping a new $4,500 gun for one of the ones I had a problem with and giving me new wood stocks on the other two, and the new wood was definitely an upgrade in the stock as far as grain, etc. was concerned. Ruger was extremely helpful on the phone regarding the mounting of a scope and offered to swap the scope rings that came with the gun for taller rings for the large scope I wanted to use on it. That was done via the phone and mail. Beretta/Benelli and Ruger will continue to get my money. Point is that if Stihl turns out to be tough to deal with, then I will go elsewhere and sell all the Stihl saws I own.

While my Stihl dealers are not too far away, I still cringe at making the 16 and 24 mile round trip drives just to order a part that I might have to wait to get anyway. Another thing I wonder about is whether there is a parts/repair manual for each specific saw. That would be something nice to have. Might have to go and start another thread on this. One of the reasons I buy Campagnolo instead of Shimano is for the durability and repairability. Same goes for Stihl. However, Campagnolo offers diagrams of the parts and all the small parts that go with it, and the repair parts are actually available online.


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## fabsroman (Dec 31, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> But that's the point fabs. The internet retail model slashes product margins to razor thin levels, sustainable only by internet retailers. It will forever drive prices lower, which to you in the short term, seems like a good deal. But in order to keep pounding down the price, product quality will be compromised until we're buying orange and white Wild Things. And if we destroy margin on parts, then their is less $$ to train those skilled repair techs needed to maintain a quality product. Ideally nothing would ever break and people like me should be useless.  Plus, how many shops carry Poulan exclusively and provide parts and extensive repair capabilities? Not many, because the price of the product makes replacement more economical than repair. Poulan is an excellent example of what kind of product you'll end up with with box-store/internet retail strategies. Are they awful? Sometimes but they do cut a lot of wood in this country. The most expensive repair I've ever done on one is a replacement bar and chain.


 
MasterMech,

I am going to assume you are somewhat biased on the subject since it appears that you were/are a dealer or work/used to work for a dealer. Yes, the internet sales model slashes profit margin because it allows everybody to compete across the entire world. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Stihl could also just sell the saws directly to consumers and ship them from storehouses all over the world.

Stihl could easily change its business model in my opinion. Instead of authorized dealers, have authorized repair centers/showrooms where what is being offered is a service that some people cannot do without. Require the authorized service centers to have a little show area for the saws and other Stihl items. I ordered a Stihl cant hook from one of my authorized dealers, sight unseen, and it took forever to come in. In fact, I had already cut, split, and stacked 2 years worth of firewood (i.e., 10 cords) in the time it took to come in.

I am ready to buy a MS170 as a limbing saw, and that is pretty much just based upon the information that I have seen on Stihl's website. Don't really need my dealer's opinion on it or any other opinion for that matter. It really would be nice if I could order it online and have it mailed to my door if shipping is not a prohibitively expensive item. I can tell you one thing for sure, I will NEVER buy chains at my dealers because they want over $30 for chains for my MS261. Got them online for $15 each.

Another issue with my dealers is that they do not stock all the saws, so I have to order them and wait anyway. Had to wait for the MS660. So, what good is a brick and mortar shop if I have to wait for my MS660 and my cant hook. If they aren't stocking it, I might as well order it online and have it shipped. Probably the same wait time, and regarding the cant hook probably a lot less.

I have ordered several John Deere items for my zero turn mower online and had them shipped right to my door for less than the dealer wanted to charge me.

Don't get me wrong, I think dealers are great for the mechanically challenged. For those not willing to spend money on a chain sharpener and learn how to use it, they can spend $10 per chain to get them sharpened and wait for the dealer to sharpen them. Me, I am buying the chain sharpener and learning how to grind them. Same thing goes for repairs on mowers, tractors, and saws. In today's world, I think the focus for "dealers" has to be on the repair service end, not the actual sale of product.

In the end, I think a "no internet sales" policy is a very bad idea in today's business climate for big business. I can buy stuff in the middle of a field while hunting, while out on a boat fishing, or in the woods cutting just by using my smartphone.

In the end, it comes down to the consumer. Is the person a do it yourselfer to the nth degree, or simply an "I want a chainsaw kind of guy with no desire to know how the chainsaw works".


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

fabsroman said:


> Another thing I wonder about is whether there is a parts/repair manual for each specific saw.


 
There is a repair manual for each saw family to the best of my knowledge.

You know you guys can order parts by phone right?  The dealer just isn't supposed to ship them.  Might cut down on those trips.


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

fabsroman said:


> I am going to assume you are somewhat biased on the subject since it appears that you were/are a dealer or work/used to work for a dealer


 
I'm biased because I own/run a small business in the OPE industry.  Service/parts only, I do not sell new wholegoods but would like that opportunity available to me if/when my business is ready for it.



fabsroman said:


> I don't think so. Stihl could also just sell the saws directly to consumers and ship them from storehouses all over the world.


 
And you'd end up with a bunch of orange and white Poulan-type saws.  Maybe if you're lucky they could keep a professional line-up but the quality of the line as a whole (especially the homeowner/mid-range stuff) wouldn't stay where it is. 



fabsroman said:


> I ordered a Stihl cant hook from one of my authorized dealers, sight unseen, and it took forever to come in. In fact, I had already cut, split, and stacked 2 years worth of firewood (i.e., 10 cords) in the time it took to come in.


 
I walked into my dealer and bought mine.  You can order the same tool from LogRite, it'll be blue instead of orange and last time I checked, you could order online. 



fabsroman said:


> Another issue with my dealers is that they do not stock all the saws, so I have to order them and wait anyway. Had to wait for the MS660.


 
Unfortunately, not every dealer stocks the whole line.  I knew we only sold 1-2 660's every year, sometimes 3-4, but I always had one in stock.  It's not really a big deal to keep it around, as all the 290's headed out the door paid for it easily.   But I didn't lose a sale just because I didn't have product.  Always fought the GM on that one. Plus it wasn't a big deal to do a saw/blower/trimmer order big enough for us to get free freight, every week or two.  Recently a dealer posted a pic of their "huge" order of equipment they got in just in time for Sandy.  It would have fit in the back of my Canyon.  I giggle as I remember unloading half a 53' Semi every season (3x a year) and that doesn't include the "little" orders that went in 2x a month.

I'm sorry you don't have a fantastic dealer to deal with.  Sometimes sharing your concerns with them will earn you a discount, especially if you're in frequently for parts.



fabsroman said:


> Same thing goes for repairs on mowers, tractors, and saws. In today's world, I think the focus for "dealers" has to be on the repair service end, not the actual sale of product.


 
Then you go back to the internet competition driving the prices/quality of the product so low that repair becomes less and less economically viable.  OPE is a big industry and a part of our national economy.  Without high-quality durable goods to repair, the service end of the industry will die.  Last thing I'd want to see is it reduced to a Sears Roebuck kind of chaos.  Didn't work for Montgomery Wards either.



fabsroman said:


> I have ordered several John Deere items for my zero turn mower online and had them shipped right to my door for less than the dealer wanted to charge me.


 
Don't even get me started on Deere.  They've gone to favoring multi-store mega-dealerships, with territories that span multiple states, that carry only Deere or Deere sanctioned equipment. (Now that Deere has all but given up on private labeling.)  Awfully tough for any small business to break into that market. 1-3 million they want (in available liquid capital) to even consider you for a single store C&CE dealer.



fabsroman said:


> In the end, I think a "no internet sales" policy is a very bad idea in today's business climate for big business.


 
Stihl knows the importance of _small-business_ and which side their bread is buttered.  Changing their entire business model would most likely be catastrophic to their existing dealer network and that won't be good for the mothership at all.


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

Hearth Mistress said:


> I learned this the hard way when trying to get chains (and that @#%$ bar screw we dropped changing the chain) for my mini boss after Hurricane Sandy. NO ONE anywhere in 200 miles had anything, not even a saw to buy! Using my cell phone, tried to find them on line, not there. I ended up calling my family in OH to send me chains and that stupid screw. I get the dealer regulations but when a super storm wipes out several states, it's tough. I love the mom n pop place I bought my saw and go there before any of the big box stores but even they laughed when I asked for Stihl parts after the storm, they laughed hard


They should have been frowning. Imagine the sales they missed out on. Smart dealers pay attention to the forecast during storm season, have their chit together. And will do what it takes to get product when they need it. I'm sure Stihl didn't run out of chain for Sandy. Nor did Oregon, Carlton, Windsor, etc.

To sit on your arse behind a counter and laugh at somebody just because you don't have the product they need doesn't make sense to me.  They could have offered to sharpen your chain, made 2 loops from one (you'd still make money selling it at MSRP), or tried to source a non-Stihl replacement chain.

If you gotta, you could run with 1 bar nut/stud.   If it was just the nut you needed, any M8 flange nut or nut and washer would have done the job.


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## fabsroman (Dec 31, 2012)

MasterMech,

You look at it from your perspective as a prospective dealer, but Stihl needs to look at it from the end user's perspective. You are somewhat pissed at Deere for doing what they did, but what they did is essentially get rid of the mom and pop stores on the low end stuff, which I am fine with. Would be fine with Stihl doing homeowner saws in the big box stores and mid to pro level saws via dealers or internet sales. Stihl's profit on the saws would be exactly the same even if they changed their business model. What bothers you is that the middle man markup (i.e., you) would not be anywhere near what it is now. How will Stihl be able to compete with Husqvarna if Husqvarna changes its business model to cut out the middleman and reduce the final price of its saws? Husqvarna would take over the market and Stihl would be SOL. If Husqvarna can put out a comparable saw, whether homeowner, mid level, or pro grade, as Stihl and they are cheaper than Stihl with cheaper parts, then the only people buying Stihls will be the ones that are loyal to Stihl, and that only gets a company so far.

There are plenty of high end manufactures out there for every passion I am involved in, and those that allow sales via the internet are still rather expensive. Granted, just not as expensive as going to a dealer. So, Stihl could still make and sell high end stuff even if they allow internet sales. All it would mean is that "dealers" would have to be comfortable with making less on a saw sale and focusing on repair/maintenance instead. Sort of like the car dealerships nowadays. They make hardly anything on car sales but try to make up for it on service. Why wouldn't people still want a pro grade Stihl versus a Poulan? Why wouldn't I want a more powerful, lighter weight saw versus a Poulan. Plus, if I can get it for less money than they cost nowadays, it would be a no brainer versus the Poulan at Home Depot. How many people pass on a $399 Farm Boss for the $199 Poulan at Home Depot because of the price difference? The performance is worlds apart. How about a MS250 versus that Poulan? If people could get a Stihl for closer to what the Poulan costs at Home Depot, Stihl saws would be flying out of Stihl's inventory.

In the end, it sucks to be a small mom & pop store nowadays unless you have a service to be given that is not merely the storing/ordering and selling of goods.

Now, time to go buy my Soot Eater from Amazon.


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## Bigg_Redd (Dec 31, 2012)

cygnus said:


> Interesting points here. I'm an occasional user cutting a few cords a year._* I also work on all my equipment myself. That's exactly why I have 3 huskys in the garage.*_ It's a whole lot easier for me.
> 
> That said, I really have to question any company's policy of 'no Internet sales'. Really? No internet?!?! That seems like a very bad long term strategy. Only time will tell.


 
I don't like working on stuff. At all. That's why I got a Stihl. And that's why I got the Stihl I got before I got my current Stihl.


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## Bigg_Redd (Dec 31, 2012)

blades said:


> _*If Stilh is so High and Mighty, why are they producing 3 lines of saws, of which the bottom ,johnny homeowner- box store version , mid grade - northern tool, Tsc similar and a pro line by their own admission?*_ Putting a lock on parts sales usually comes back to bite you from behind. Operating on a brand name reconigtion only lasts so long before the consumer finds an equivalent unit from a different mfg. that is less expensive to maintain. A classic example is the auto industry with the invasion of the Asian units in the 70's and 80's.


 
Could you translate this into complete thoughts for us non-mind readers?


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

fabsroman said:


> Husqvarna would take over the market and Stihl would be SOL.


 
So why haven't they yet?  They're in Lowes and Sears already.  You can buy 75% of their line online from anybody you choose.  If it's such an obvious choice, I think they'd have done it by now.  Husky is #2.  I don't think going to an internet centered retail model is going to get them to the #1 slot. 



fabsroman said:


> How many people pass on a $399 Farm Boss for the $199 Poulan at Home Depot because of the price difference?


 
Same number of people I _watched_ pass up a $399 455 Rancher at lowes for a $199 20" 46cc Poulan "Pro". (at least 4 in the 20 minutes I was there!)



fabsroman said:


> All it would mean is that "dealers" would have to be comfortable with making less on a saw sale


 
Can't get blood from a stone, there isn't a lot of room on new sales as it is.  Especially homeowner/entry-level product.  Care to take a stab at what the margin is for the _high-end_ of the market?  We're talking about your 660 here.  Go ahead, I'll tell you if you're right or how far off you are.



fabsroman said:


> If Husqvarna can put out a comparable saw, whether homeowner, mid level, or pro grade, as Stihl and they are cheaper than Stihl with cheaper parts, then the only people buying Stihls will be the ones that are loyal to Stihl, and that only gets a company so far.


 
But apparently they can't, or don't, since when you go apples to apples, and MSRP to MSRP, Stihl wins 9 out of 10 times. Husky 445 is $309.95, MS250 - 18" is $299.95,  455 Rancher is $429.95,  MS290 is $399.95. in it's most expensive trim, 20".  Husky 576Xp Autotune is $949.95 while Stihl's MS441CM with Mtronic is $909.95 (25").  So tell me fabs, _why isn't Husky killing Stihl? _

PS: Just bought a $300 high-end flashlight off the internet.  No dealers involved.


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

One note fabs,

You gotta remember that you, me, Boog, AC, Dex and others like us are in the _minority_ of chainsaw buyers/users. Product quality/performance is what matters the most to us, with price a close second. We buy the absolute best products we can afford at the lowest price available. Sacrificing quality for price won't get you far with us (how many of us exclusively own homeowner/mid-range saws?).

What's convenient for us isn't necessarily good for the industry as a whole.


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## DexterDay (Dec 31, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> One note fabs,
> 
> You gotta remember that you, me, Boog, AC, Dex and others like us are in the _minority_ of chainsaw buyers/users. Product quality/performance is what matters the most to us, with price a close second. We buy the absolute best products we can afford at the lowest price available. Sacrificing quality for price won't get you far with us (how many of us exclusively own homeowner/mid-range saws?).
> 
> What's convenient for us isn't necessarily good for the industry as a whole.



Im about 50/50 on this whole issue. I like a good deal as much as the other guy.  But in turn, I do like my Mom and Pop shops, I try to support the local economy.

I have bought some good aftermarket parts for my Stihls online, but have gotten some chit also (crank seals for my MS260 are Shot) I am a young man in an age old industry, but what i have learned, is good chit aint cheap. You get what you pay for..

I'm gonna put my line in the sand there. This will quickly head to the Can if it continues down this path.  

If I fan get a good deal, I want it. Cutting out the middle man is good for the end consumer. But it always hurts someone.  Again. I love a great deal. 

I see your side MM, but coming from just a consumer, the ability to buy any OEM part from my Couch at home is nice (coming from a guy who sold ALL his huskies and has 5 Stihls now (just won ANOTHER 036 PRO on eBay) and 6 if you count the MS192-t I let my buddies Father "Borrow" while I cut on his property (may end up giving it to him).


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## MasterMech (Dec 31, 2012)

DexterDay said:


> coming from just a consumer, the ability to buy any OEM part from my Couch at home is nice


 
I guess I have two points, local dealers are generally good for the OPE business, both the retail and service side of it. And rushing to sell over the internet isn't necessarily the path to success. I like ordering parts from my home too. And you _can_ always phone your dealer to get the parts you need, good dealers will special order and have stuff in next day if you have a dire need and are willing to pay for the shipping. Some, like mine, order almost every day, and usually get things in 1-3 days with no extra expedited shipping.

I don't know why we'd send this to the can, still on topic, everyone is playing nice, and I haven't said God, gun, Bush, Republican, or Obama yet.


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## DexterDay (Dec 31, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> I guess I have two points, local dealers are generally good for the OPE business, both the retail and service side of it. And rushing to sell over the internet isn't necessarily the path to success. I like ordering parts from my home too. And you _can_ always phone your dealer to get the parts you need, good dealers will special order and have stuff in next day if you have a dire need and are willing to pay for the shipping. Some, like mine, order almost every day, and usually get things in 1-3 days with no extra expedited shipping.
> 
> I don't know why we'd send this to the can, still on topic, everyone is playing nice, and I haven't said God, gun, Bush, Republican, or Obama yet.



Tu Chet


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## Boog (Dec 31, 2012)

Since I started this, I think we can all say that we understand and respect each others views and concerns.  Only time will tell where it all goes from here.  I'll continue to try and get what I need as cheaply as possible online, although I will use my local dealers when I need too.  In addition to the 3 items that came today, 6 or 7 more are on the way.  But I did visit my dealer to order an 031AV starter grip and rope last week.  No one online had it, and my dealers didn't even have that diameter rope in stock.  Only Papa Stihl could help me out.


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## fabsroman (Dec 31, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> One note fabs,
> 
> You gotta remember that you, me, Boog, AC, Dex and others like us are in the _minority_ of chainsaw buyers/users. Product quality/performance is what matters the most to us, with price a close second. We buy the absolute best products we can afford at the lowest price available. Sacrificing quality for price won't get you far with us (how many of us exclusively own homeowner/mid-range saws?).
> 
> What's convenient for us isn't necessarily good for the industry as a whole.


 
I bought a Stihl and a John Deere because of reputation. How long has Stihl been around versus Husqvarna? Same goes for John Deere and Kubota. However, Kubota is gaining in popularity. The Honda Accord and Toyota Camry did not beat out American sedans right away. Things take time. The internet and internet sales are relatively new. My parents have no idea how to buy things on the internet, but my dad is starting to learn even though he waits for me to enter all the address and credit card information to make the final purchase. He just prints out what he finds online at the lowest price and then asks me to complete the sale. So, the question is whether Stihl is #1 based upon it laurels, and whether Husqvarna can eat into that loyalty through an internet sales model. I looked at both Stihl and Husqvarna when considering the saws I bought, but bought on Stihl's reputation. Had no idea about either company's internet sales policy on small parts and/or saws. Again, I am the end user, and have no stake in arguing the middleman's argument, just the end user's argument.

Imagine how much more market share Stihl could get if it actually did internet sales at an even lower price point than Husqvarna. Reminds me of how Perdue would put small chicken farmers out of business in small areas. He would just lower the price of his chickens in that area, even incurring a loss himself, because he knew he could afford the loss from that small area and that the small chicken farmer could not. So, the small chicken farmer had to give in to Perdue's demands. Give the internet a couple more decades wherein everybody is a savy internet shopper and purchaser and things are going to be a lot different. Of course, I could be wrong and Stihl might still win through innovation and superior product with an equal price point, but time will tell.


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## Hearth Mistress (Dec 31, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> They should have been frowning. Imagine the sales they missed out on. Smart dealers pay attention to the forecast during storm season, have their chit together. And will do what it takes to get product when they need it. I'm sure Stihl didn't run out of chain for Sandy. Nor did Oregon, Carlton, Windsor, etc.
> 
> To sit on your arse behind a counter and laugh at somebody just because you don't have the product they need doesn't make sense to me.  They could have offered to sharpen your chain, made 2 loops from one (you'd still make money selling it at MSRP), or tried to source a non-Stihl replacement chain.
> 
> If you gotta, you could run with 1 bar nut/stud.   If it was just the nut you needed, any M8 flange nut or nut and washer would have done the job.



It was just fustrating. We had 2 chains plus the one in the saw. On busted, two were really dull, from cutting hours on end and hand sharpening ( which I suck at) We all knew the storm was coming but no one anticipated 90 mph winds here this far inland and being without power for almost two weeks because there were so many trees down no one could get to us. When they did, the damage to the power stations were destroyed beyond a quick fix an all of the other utilities were off until the electric lines could be safely repaired. 13 days without electric, 17 days without cable/internet and 18 days without phone. It was worse than anyone expected, no doubt.

They laughed because people were driving from as far as a hour away trying to get chainsaw parts, anything from any manufacterer but none was around. They didn't have power and were walking people around with flashlights trying to get people what they needed, unlike the big box stores that just never opened. 

It was unfortunate but next time, I'll be posting what I need here as I'm sure you guys would have bailed me out


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## fabsroman (Dec 31, 2012)

Hearth Mistress said:


> It was just fustrating. We had 2 chains plus the one in the saw. On busted, two were really dull, from cutting hours on end and hand sharpening ( which I suck at) We all knew the storm was coming but no one anticipated 90 mph winds here this far inland and being without power for almost two weeks because there were so many trees down no one could get to us. When they did, the damage to the power stations were destroyed beyond a quick fix an all of the other utilities were off until the electric lines could be safely repaired. 13 days without electric, 17 days without cable/internet and 18 days without phone. It was worse than anyone expected, no doubt.
> 
> They laughed because people were driving from as far as a hour away trying to get chainsaw parts, anything from any manufacterer but none was around. They didn't have power and were walking people around with flashlights trying to get people what they needed, unlike the big box stores that just never opened.
> 
> It was unfortunate but next time, I'll be posting what I need here as I'm sure you guys would have bailed me out


 
Yep, any of us could have gone to the local dealer and sent you the chains or even e-bay and had the chains shipped directly to you if the USPS, fedex, USPS, etc were still delivering. Then again, hard to post on the internet without power. Good to have a generator and a decent amount of gas just in case.


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## Hearth Mistress (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks! We were ok with the generator but gas became an issue once the first week passed and as the stations that had power were then out of gas. When we did find a station, it was full of folks from NJ that don't know how to pump gas since the stations pump for you in NJ, making the lines even slower to get through  Living so close to NJ and NY everyone was scrambling for gas. Made us re-think our survival plan. My hubby's company makes gas stabilizer so we now keep more on hand in gas cans and swap it out to keep it "fresh"  we are also minimalist so the gene wasn't running all day long, just to keep the fridge and chest freezer cold and a few lights. We need to get the gene hard wired to run the well pump so we have water but then we will be set, as long as the trees don't pull the stove pipe down! We got lucky this time, only a passing limb dented the cap!


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## brian89gp (Jan 1, 2013)

Years ago I used to be into sportbikes and bought a lot of gear through a local mom and pop shop. Always helpful, if you had a problem with anything you could just bring it in and they would take a look at no charge. When I was buying a rather expensive jacket for my girlfriend they ordered two different sizes of several brands at no cost so she could try them all on. They were a repair shop too and were more then willing to answer questions I had about fixing my bike. They cost more then online but I was more then happy to purposefully buy from them and to this day their business is booming.

The chainsaw dealers around me not so much. The few times I tried to order a part (because it was broken and I needed to use the saw now...) the delivery to the dealer was more then a week out and they weren't overly eager to help me on such a small ticket item nor try to get it any quicker. Bought it online and had it at my door in 2 days. And it was less then half the price even after shipping. The other time they all wanted $40+ just to "diagnose" a saw then more money to tune it and they wouldn't answer any questions I had about how it was supposed to run or things I could to to try and fix it; all I got was the bring it in and we will tell you for $40.

Perhaps MasterMech your dealership and the ones around you are of high quality with good service at good rates and I would love to have one around here. The ones I have had dealings with I swear they were trying to price themselves out of business and their service was poor so I loose no sleep over buying a fuel hose on ebay for $5 that no dealer would sell to me for less then $30.


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## fabsroman (Jan 1, 2013)

brian89gp said:


> Years ago I used to be into sportbikes and bought a lot of gear through a local mom and pop shop. Always helpful, if you had a problem with anything you could just bring it in and they would take a look at no charge. When I was buying a rather expensive jacket for my girlfriend they ordered two different sizes of several brands at no cost so she could try them all on. They were a repair shop too and were more then willing to answer questions I had about fixing my bike. They cost more then online but I was more then happy to purposefully buy from them and to this day their business is booming.
> 
> The chainsaw dealers around me not so much. The few times I tried to order a part (because it was broken and I needed to use the saw now...) the delivery to the dealer was more then a week out and they weren't overly eager to help me on such a small ticket item nor try to get it any quicker. Bought it online and had it at my door in 2 days. And it was less then half the price even after shipping. The other time they all wanted $40+ just to "diagnose" a saw then more money to tune it and they wouldn't answer any questions I had about how it was supposed to run or things I could to to try and fix it; all I got was the bring it in and we will tell you for $40.
> 
> Perhaps MasterMech your dealership and the ones around you are of high quality with good service at good rates and I would love to have one around here. The ones I have had dealings with I swear they were trying to price themselves out of business and their service was poor so I loose no sleep over buying a fuel hose on ebay for $5 that no dealer would sell to me for less then $30.


 
If you have a $300 to $400 old saw, how much sense does it make to spend $40 on a diagnosis and then another $50+ for the actual repair? That is why these things become throw away items if you cannot fix them yourself. Get a new bar, chain, and sawhead for $300 to $400 and e-bay the parts from the old saw or the entire old saw as parts. Cheaper cars are even like that. Got rid of a 7 year old Hyundai Sonata with 129,000 miles or so on it because the heater core went up and after 2 days of trying to get at the heater core, a $1,300 estimate from the dealer to repair the heater core, prior problems with the car, and a leaking power steering pump it just made more sense to trade it in for $750 and buy a Ford Focus for $14,500.

I know a guy that buys $100 or less trimmers and as soon as they will not start he throws them away. This year, I did the same thing to a 9 year old pre-lit Xmas tree we had. Spent several hours each Xmas season over the past couple of years trying to fix blown out bulbs. Trying to find replacement bulbs was also pretty tough. Had to buy new light strings and scavenge the bulbs from them, but the bulbs had to be the correct rating. After spending two hours working on it this season, a light bulb lit up, but in my head. Bigger tree, and string lights that can be replaced string by string as they cause problems. $11 a strand when not on sale and a lot less frustrating than trying to find that burnt out bulb. Glad this came up, going to look for replacement strands on sale tomorrow.

As far as I am concerned, what separates dealers is their service and willingness to help. If they don't want to offer great service, even if that means giving me a little advice on a repair, then I have no loyalty to buy anything from them. Not the repair parts, maintenance parts, etc.


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## OldLumberKid (Jan 1, 2013)

Paulywalnut said:


> Hey! A woodburner and a cyclist. Me too. I do like the treatment of my stihl dealer. They are trained well on their product.
> Not sure if you bought a saw on the internet they would be so gracious. especially if stihl won't honor the warranty on an internet sale.


 
That makes three of us—must have something to do with lube and chains.
As far as the Stihl was concerned I didn't mind paying a bit more when I have a dealer 5 minutes away who can take care of service issues, and the Stihl reputation for longevity is good.

As far as the bike was concerned, I maintain 4 heavily used MTBs for the family plus my 2 road bikes, so I figured very quickly I better get a workstand and learn to do a lot of the mech myself, or I'd be paying the LBS 90 bucks every other month to tune cables and fix brakes and whatnot.  

For my latest roadie, I built up my own, I waited for a year to get a hybrid Campagnolo Chorus/Centaur mix groupset at the right price from EuroBike parts (saving hundred$ that way catching it on sale, instead of buying newest latest — but if treated well, it lasts a lifetime — the 84 Nuovo Record is still going strong, freaking amazing.), learned how it all went together and haven't had to tune the cables since the first few test rides. The LBS didn't speak Campy anyway. 

It's kinda like two different things, at least until I learn my way around these saw engines and whatnot. But for now the dealer has been great on the initial issues I had. I can't imagine schlepping 30 minutes to Home Depot to stand in line for another 30 minutes to deal with crummy service and satisfaction. Bollocks to that for a game of soldiers, if you know what I mean.


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## fabsroman (Jan 1, 2013)

OldLumberKid said:


> That makes three of us—must have something to do with lube and chains.
> As far as the Stihl was concerned I didn't mind paying a bit more when I have a dealer 5 minutes away who can take care of service issues, and the Stihl reputation for longevity is good.
> 
> As far as the bike was concerned, I maintain 4 heavily used MTBs for the family plus my 2 road bikes, so I figured very quickly I better get a workstand and learn to do a lot of the mech myself, or I'd be paying the LBS 90 bucks every other month to tune cables and fix brakes and whatnot.
> ...


 
Yeah, ordered several Campy Record groups from 11speed online while they were in business. Paid $1,000 for each groupo back in 2005, 2006 while they wanted $1,800+ for them in the US. The shipping was super fast from Italy too. Eurobike parts is also a pretty good and reasonable seller, as is probikekit out of Great Britain.

I agree with the Campy stuff lasting forever. I have an old 1985 Super Record groupo on an old Italian frame and I know it has 40,000 miles on it easily. Only thing I have ever had to replace is the rear cogs and chains. The stuff has been amazing. Did have an issue with one of the newer Campy Record brifters with it shifting into the 10th cog, but after rebuilding it everything worked just fine. When I did it 3 years ago, I knew what the problem was after taking it apart. Now, 3 years later I cannot remember for the life of me, much less how it all goes back together. lol

I am the opposite of you. 6 road bikes and 2 MTB's. Also have 2 repair stands. 1 for repairs in progress and another for a quick repair (e.g., chain lube) before hitting the road. Taking the bikes in for maintenance and repairs would be costly.

Hoping to get a lot of years from the Stihls before repairs are needed, but getting ready to buy an electric chain sharpener for the Stihl chains because I am running low on sharp ones and refuse to pay the $10 per chain sharpening fee at the local dealers.

Yeah, I don't tend to buy many tools from Home Depot, but they have been pretty good with returns, etc.

Just noticed you are from Long Island. My wife was born there and we go to visit her family once or twice a year. She lived in Hicksville. Her sister is currently living about 15 minutes west of Hicksville and my wife's aunts and uncles are still in Hicksville. Might have to bring a road bike up there and get a ride in with you. Have always wanted to bring a bike up there, but too worried about where to go riding up there.


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## KarlP (Jan 1, 2013)

fabsroman said:


> How long has Stihl been around versus Husqvarna?


 
Been around or been making chainsaws?

Stihl hired his first employees in *1927* and started making chainsaws in 1929.

The first Husqvarna gun plant was established in *1689*. They were producing sewing machines before Stihl was born. They were making 2-stroke motorcycles for decades before Stihl was in business. They have only been making chainsaws since 1959, so they are totally unknown newbies in this area.


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## greg13 (Jan 1, 2013)

I'm going to take the top off of this can of worms and see what happens.

First, Stilh always has had strict dealer requirements. I toyed with taking on a dealership but did not want to tie up the money for required inventory, It would have been a "Part time" job for me. I can understand their logic since they want dealers that are fully accessible.

Second, Personally I want to support the LOCAL economy. I'd like to see someone "run down' to their local internet store on a Saturday afternoon to pick up a part to keep cutting for the weekend.

Third, Why make jobs for another area? Add in shipping and the price may not be as good as it appears.

Unfortunately many people have bought into the "Walmart method" of buying. Go by price only, who needs service, just buy a new one.


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## Boog (Jan 1, 2013)

KarlP said:


> The first Husqvarna gun plant was established in *1689*.


 
Back in the late 80's through mid 90's, I started collecting guns, old historical military ones.  Built up quite a collection of Pre WWI, WWI, WWII, and post WWII stuff from all the countries of the world.  Had about 40 guns in all at the peak.  Sold most of it all off a few years ago, all except one gun.  The best shooting, most accurate rifle in the whole lot.  A mint Husqvarna M38 carbine in 6.5 x 55 cal made in 1943.  Simply awsome shooting rifle/caliber, uncanny accuracy.  It could "dot the i in Stihl" at a couple hundred yards of one of my numerous saws.


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## OldLumberKid (Jan 1, 2013)

greg13 said:


> I'm going to take the top off of this can of worms and see what happens.
> First, Stilh always has had strict dealer requirements. I toyed with taking on a dealership but did not want to tie up the money for required inventory, It would have been a "Part time" job for me. I can understand their logic since they want dealers that are fully accessible.
> 
> Second, Personally I want to support the LOCAL economy. I'd like to see someone "run down' to their local internet store on a Saturday afternoon to pick up a part to keep cutting for the weekend.
> ...


 
Well you're not alone in that regard by any means.
I'd guess a lot — but not all, of course — of Stihl users feel similarly or they would not have bought from a strictly dealer-based manufacturer in the first place, but I could be wrong.


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## Boog (Jan 1, 2013)

greg13 said:


> I'm going to take the top off of this can of worms and see what happens............................. Second, Personally I want to support the LOCAL economy. I'd like to see someone "run down' to their local internet store on a Saturday afternoon to pick up a part to keep cutting for the weekend...........................Third, Why make jobs for another area? Add in shipping and the price may not be as good as it appears.


 
Since I started this post, I tried to wrap it up last night with a gracious post to both sides, but folks just seem to want to keep this one going, which obviously I respect as we're all due our 2 cents worth.. Therefore, I need to respond to the stated above.

I have run down to my local dealer on the proverbial "Saturday afternoon" on more than one occasion only to have them tell me they do not have what I need, will have to order it in. Sure, they have the basic stuff, but with their huge historical linup, they simply can't be expected to inventory all the parts necessary for all of their saws. So I have to wait. Also, I forgot to mention that in the incident regarding the $52 rings I posted earlier, they first ordered in the wrong rings. They called me to come pick them up, I drive over there, and I can tell just by looking at them in the little plastic case that they are too small. It may just be a 191T, but that baby has a huge piston (short stroke) - 46mm! These were puny rings. I tell them that they are not right, the dealer initially disagrees with me saying that the numbers match and I must be mistaken judging from "memory", I insist that he look them up again on his IPL diagrams, and low-and-behold, he wrote down the wrong number when he ordered them! So I go home empty handed and wait some more.................... Yes, we are all human and anyone can make a mistake, but I don't buy your comment that we can just run on over to our friendly local dealer and get what we need, not in the real world.

Why make jobs in another area, why not I say! They have a right to operate a successful business too. I do enough business in my daily life with local folks that I see nothing wrong with throwing a few special things to other folks. I've bought internet parts that have come as far away as Washigton State, and as close by as outside Cleveland, an hour from me. It still costed less to ship them to me than to buy it from a local dealer. Heck, driving to Cleveland and back would have been the most expensive form of shipping out there! He was able to mail it to me for the cost of a half gallon of gas.

(A very well respected poster here PM'd me a day ago and told me to get some rings I needed for an 024AV I'm rebuilding from a guy in Greece where he gets all his.) We're living in a global economy.


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## greg13 (Jan 1, 2013)

Boog, Every type of business has the A+ type of store, the type that the guy behind knows part numbers off the top of their heads and others that don't know what a part is with out a computer to tell them.

I have been pulling wrenches for over 40 years and I have seen a sad decline in both the quality of the help behind the counter and a major lack of "in stock" parts on hand. I guess it's just a part of today's corporate mentality. It used to be "We always stock 100,000 parts" now it seems like if we stock it it costs big bucks and we don't make as much profit. The computer says we don't sell enough to stock it! 

As for jobs, I'm all for EVERYONE working, but if it comes down to my neighbor having a job or someone four states away.... Make no mistake, I do but some stuff on line, but I do try to buy local as much as possible.


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## jotul8e2 (Jan 1, 2013)

I have been in retail all my life. I have been working, and sometimes fighting, with manufacturers these past 40 years. This issue is difficult for end users to understand, but I will give it a try.

The issue is one of control. When a manufacturer has hundreds or thousands of dealers the manufacturer is in control.


fabsroman said:


> MasterMech
> ...but Stihl needs to look at it from the end user's perspective. You are somewhat pissed at Deere for doing what they did, but what they did is essentially get rid of the mom and pop stores on the low end stuff, which I am fine with. Would be fine with Stihl doing homeowner saws in the big box stores and mid to pro level saws via dealers or internet sales.* Stihl's profit on the saws would be exactly the same even if they changed their business model.*


 (emphasis mine)

In practically no case would this be true. Control shifts from the manufacturer to the big box retailer When Lowes or Cabelas or Petsmart or (God help you!) Wal-Mart is buying 50%-70% of your output the retailer determines what you make and at what price you make it. They do not need the manufacturer: Echo, Shindaiwa, Toro, and many others will fill their shelves for them. Others will gladly slap their label (Homelite, McCullah) on something Chinese. The manufacturer in these situations becomes absolutely dependent upon the big box retailer, however. And it is a one-way street - once the dealers are gone, they are gone. It would take many years to rebuild a dealer network from scratch and almost no manufacturer is big enough to survive the attempt.

In the end, the customer who actually appreciates the brand is the one to lose. Parts become unavailable. Selection becomes reduced. Quality usually suffers as the buyers at the big retailers can see no reason why one brand should be 50% higher in price. Often the manufacturer ceases to make anything at all and becomes just a label.

Dealerships are a headache to such manufacturers, to be sure. Some dealers are ignorant. Some are inept. It takes a huge amount of resources to try and keep dealers who will represent the product properly, but the alternative is usually death. The best example I can think of is Maytag. They once sold the best appliances made only though dealers. Then they decided Montgomery Wards would give them a few more unit sales. The dealers were gone in five years. In another ten Maytag was nothing but a contract builder for the big box stores. Today Maytag is just a label applied to Whirlpool products. Anyone remember Magnavox? Same thing. Justin boots, Delta tools, now just labels.

The problem is that Sears, or Lowes, or Bass Pro will not make a brand. They will only use it. To build a reputation for quality takes people out there on the sales floor showing and explaining why you, the customer should pay substantially more for this product rather than the cheaper one. This puts the onus on the manufacturer to deliver, of course. There are many examples of once-revered brands sold only through dealers that are gone, or at least in trouble. Avon products come to mind. Schwinn bicycles. Lawn Boy.

And yet the need for on line presence is still there. What some companies are doing is to set up internet systems that will credit sales to participating dealers. This would allow you to purchase an item on the internet, yet the dealer in your zip code gets the sale less some kind of fee.


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## DanCorcoran (Jan 1, 2013)

greg13 said:


> I'm going to take the top off of this can of worms and see what happens.
> 
> First, Stilh always has had strict dealer requirements. I toyed with taking on a dealership but did not want to tie up the money for required inventory, It would have been a "Part time" job for me. I can understand their logic since they want dealers that are fully accessible.
> 
> ...


 

Depends on what I'm buying.  When I buy a car, I want service.  When I buy batteries for my camera, I could care less about service.


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## OldLumberKid (Jan 1, 2013)

fabsroman said:


> Just noticed you are from Long Island. My wife was born there and we go to visit her family once or twice a year. She lived in Hicksville. Her sister is currently living about 15 minutes west of Hicksville and my wife's aunts and uncles are still in Hicksville. Might have to bring a road bike up there and get a ride in with you. Have always wanted to bring a bike up there, but too worried about where to go riding up there.


 
Riding on the North Shore, north of Jericho Turnpike is pretty good.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/13786656

^ here is a good startpoint for some really interesting firewood scouting rides starting near the Sound but with some challenging hills, (though it reverts to a pay-per town beach Memorial Day to Labor Day)

I will try to get a ride in today to scout for some firewood — now there's the legit connection for us woodaholics — it's a great way to discover some discarded/fallen logs and determine their accessibility, and see some nice scenery at the same time






http://theoutsideinsideout.blogspot.com/2012/10/multi-sport-mix-up.html

I'm usually up for a ride if my cervical disk condition in my neck is not acting up (like it is now) Generally it limits me to an hour/hour and a half, before I start to compromise my neck. Probably too slow/short — These days I'm a 11-14 mph avg. kind of guy (lots of hills but not a grat climber at 197# ). I'd be a lot faster if I had a group to draft with and no freaking hills, but who wouldn't, right?

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/220931217

But there is a club here — LIBC that rides out of the High School parking lot on northeast corner of Post Road/Jericho Turnpike, Westbury, most weekend mornings with A B and C+ rides starting at 8:30 9 am- ish.

Tons of MTB here — Stillwell Woods is the mutts nuts

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/190141630

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/170376993

Should volunteer for more trailwork, but there's no getting this kind of haul back to civilization, it'll rot where it falls I suspect.


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## OldLumberKid (Jan 1, 2013)

jotul8e2 said:


> I have been in retail all my life. I have been working, and sometimes fighting, with manufacturers these past 40 years. This issue is difficult for end users to understand, but I will give it a try.
> 
> The issue is one of control. When a manufacturer has hundreds or thousands of dealers the manufacturer is in control.
> (emphasis mine)
> ...


 
I've covered certain aspects of retail from the inside for a number of years, and can back you up and say this is word.^

But the more the production line becomes geared to the WM / Amazon supply chain the more dependent the Mfr is on the big box/big Internet, and, there's no going back.

It seems it's the quality enthusiast and specialty labels that can determine their destinies, at least as best they can, if they stay away from the uber mass market retailers.



MasterMech said:


> One note fabs,
> 
> You gotta remember that you, me, Boog, AC, Dex and others like us are in the _minority_ of chainsaw buyers/users. Product quality/performance is what matters the most to us, with price a close second. We buy the absolute best products we can afford at the lowest price available. Sacrificing quality for price won't get you far with us (how many of us exclusively own homeowner/mid-range saws?).
> 
> What's convenient for us isn't necessarily good for the industry as a whole.


I'd add for me #2 was close proximity to a dealer/service. Location, location, location. Might not always be perfect, but I'd rather 5 minutes to my dealer, than 30 minutes to Home Depot for who knows what service, if any.

I may not get it back right away, but I can live with a few days.



Boog Powell said:


> Since I started this post, I tried to wrap it up last night with a gracious post to both sides, but folks just seem to want to keep this one going, which obviously I respect as we're all due our 2 cents worth.. Therefore, I need to respond to the stated above.


 
Sorry missed that wrap, mea culpa, but it was/is an interesting thread.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 1, 2013)

It's a wrap.


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