# Oil hot water supplement?



## Reckless (Apr 22, 2013)

Hi everyone 

So bought a house with an oil fired water heater and am looking for ways to keep the furnance off (I heat mostly with wood stove). Anybody in a similar situation? Ive been looing into on demand or solar supplement. Any other ideas? Is the right section?
The extent of my knowledge on solar is http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/choosing-a-solar-system-to-supplement-your-water-h.html

Thanks!!


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## peakbagger (Apr 22, 2013)

GIven the upfront cost of solar hot water systems, most recomendations now are to install a heat pump electric hot water heater. If you want go solar, just install net metered PV panels to offset the extra load. If you have an external hot water tank that runs off a zone of the oil system, you could install a gyser heat pump hot water heater on that and save the cost of the tank. Of course unless you have a cold start boiler, a conventional boiler will burn about 1 gallon a day just to keep warm. I just manually shut mine off for the summer, but many start leaking when they cool down.


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## Slow1 (Apr 22, 2013)

I've been considering the same as OP for some time now.  Just did the annual oil tank fill to the tune of almost $900 and I do believe it was all for hot water.

I have looked at the Geyser heat pumps (many times..) and recently noticed that ASHP with tank may be less expensive - my thought now is to run the heatpump tank inline with the oil heated one and then the water inbound to the oil tank will be hot, thus limiting the oil burn to standby losses.  Interested in thoughts from folks on this idea...


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## Reckless (Apr 22, 2013)

peakbagger said:


> you could install a gyser heat pump hot water heater on that and save the cost of the tank. but many start leaking when they cool down.


 
These two things are correct  thanks!!


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## maple1 (Apr 22, 2013)

IMO most of the cost in heating DHW with oil comes from standby losses.


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## Reckless (Apr 22, 2013)

Slow1 said:


> and recently noticed that ASHP with tank may be less expensive


Prices I see seem to be double the price of the geyser and how will it help in the winter months? I really have no experience with any of this stuff so any ideas are usefull 



maple1 said:


> IMO most of the cost in heating DHW with oil comes from standby losses.


 How is Geyser heat pumps on electric?


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## maple1 (Apr 22, 2013)

I don't have one so can't say a whole lot on them. There is quite a bit of reading on them in more than one section of this forum - try a search.


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## semipro (Apr 22, 2013)

If you're a DIYer you may want to check out builditsolar.com. 
I think solar preheating still makes sense if you do it yourself or if you're using cold groundwater. 

We have a well and a Heat Pump Water Heater (Geospring).  I'd love to have a solar unit to pre-heat the 50 degree water coming from my well before it enters the HPWH.


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## Reckless (Apr 22, 2013)

semipro said:


> If you're a DIYer you may want to check out builditsolar.com.
> I think solar preheating still makes sense if you do it yourself or if you're using cold groundwater.
> 
> We have a well and a Heat Pump Water Heater (Geospring). I'd love to have a solar unit to pre-heat the 50 degree water coming from my well before it enters the HPWH.


Preheating the water... this would cut down on time to heat but will it help with keeping the tank up to temp also? Im looking use as little oil as possible.
 My friend works for trane and he is looking into this unit for me http://www.trane.com/residential/products/ductless/mini-split/4txk8 . Exploring all my options


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## woodgeek (Apr 22, 2013)

Lots of great comments already.  I would say that 'supplement' is not the right word/approach....most of the oil cost is standby loss....preheating the water before it goes in won't save you more than a small percentage.  To save, you need to switch to another heater (either HPWH or conventional elec will save you money) and shut down the boiler in the summer.  At least in the winter the parasitic losses are heating your house.

Also, a tip....check that your radiators are really cold, not 'warm' in the summer...in a lot of older systems the check valves break and the system thermosiphons (circulates by gravity w/o a pump).  This can easily double the standby loss and cost a bundle in summer oil usage and extra AC.  Solution...close a cutoff valve off in the spring, reopen in the fall.  Save $300.


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## Reckless (Apr 22, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Lots of great comments already. I would say that 'supplement' is not the right word/approach....most of the oil cost is standby loss....preheating the water before it goes in won't save you more than a small percentage. To save, you need to switch to another heater (either HPWH or conventional elec will save you money) and shut down the boiler in the summer. At least in the winter the parasitic losses are heating your house.
> 
> Also, a tip....check that your radiators are really cold, not 'warm' in the summer...in a lot of older systems the check valves break and the system thermosiphons (circulates by gravity w/o a pump). This can easily double the standby loss and cost a bundle in summer oil usage and extra AC. Solution...close a cutoff valve off in the spring, reopen in the fall. Save $300.


 My boiler cannot be shut down because it leaks when it is off. How would a Geyser heat pump not save me money by keeping the standby loss of the water heater to a minimum?


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## woodgeek (Apr 22, 2013)

yeah, still seems a kludge. You're still blowing through a lot of BTUs to keep it warm, just paying a little less per BTU. Can you drain it in the summer, or are you afraid it would start leaking when warm?  Kinda like leaving your car idling 24/7 because the starter is broken, IMO.

I also (back in the day) 'up insulated' my boiler by stuffing the jacket with FG. Maybe pack the sides in Roxul?


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## maple1 (Apr 22, 2013)

Do you have an oil fired water heater, or are you heating your DHW with a boiler?


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## Reckless (Apr 22, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Do you have an oil fired water heater, or are you heating your DHW with a boiler?


 Thats a good question, Im not sure what its called but the water heater has a coil in it thats heated from the furnace that in turn heats the water inside the tank.


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## GaryGary (Apr 22, 2013)

Reckless said:


> Preheating the water... this would cut down on time to heat but will it help with keeping the tank up to temp also? Im looking use as little oil as possible.
> My friend works for trane and he is looking into this unit for me http://www.trane.com/residential/products/ductless/mini-split/4txk8 . Exploring all my options


 
Hi,
You can build a DIY system that will provide nearly all of your hot water -- it just depends on how you size it.  The nice thing about DIY solar water heating systems is that it costs very little to make the collector and storage tank larger than the usual commercial systems -- this gives you some cushion for cloudy days.

This is my system: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/DHWplusSpace/Main.htm
You can do it with or without the space heating.
We have had a week now of off and on snow, rain, clouds and a bit of sun -- the tank is currently at 116F.
I'm ready for spring -- predicted low for tonight is 14F!

Gary


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## Reckless (Apr 23, 2013)

GaryGary said:


> Hi,
> You can build a DIY system that will provide nearly all of your hot water -- it just depends on how you size it. The nice thing about DIY solar water heating systems is that it costs very little to make the collector and storage tank larger than the usual commercial systems -- this gives you some cushion for cloudy days.
> 
> This is my system: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/DHWplusSpace/Main.htm
> ...


Pretty cool stuff here hmmmm


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## semipro (Apr 23, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Lots of great comments already. I would say that 'supplement' is not the right word/approach....most of the oil cost is standby loss....preheating the water before it goes in won't save you more than a small percentage. To save, you need to switch to another heater (either HPWH or conventional elec will save you money) and shut down the boiler in the summer. At least in the winter the parasitic losses are heating your house..


I guess my impression was that reckless was considering getting away from the boiler for DHW entirely which is why I mentioned the preheater/HPWH option.


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## maple1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Reckless said:


> Thats a good question, Im not sure what its called but the water heater has a coil in it thats heated from the furnace that in turn heats the water inside the tank.


 
OK - sounds like you've got an indirect hot water heater that is heated by your oil boiler. And that you can't turn off the boiler or let it go cold because it will leak (from what you posted). That all means you're kind of up against it on a couple of fronts. Just keeping the oil boiler warm so it won't leak is costing you all kinds of standby losses, before you even get to talking about keeping your hot water heater hot (likely most of your oil is going to standby losses now) - I know, I used to have a boiler like that.

The problem with supplementing or pre-heating your DHW is that you will still need to keep your boiler warm to stop it from leaking. Proverbial rock & hard place. Do you know how cool your boiler can get before it starts to leak? Two angles of thought - either come up with something solar powered (or maybe heat pump powered) and use that to keep your boiler hot (that heat would get transfered to the indirect tank eventually) - or scrap that boiler for a newer cold-start one that you can let go cold, and replace the indirect tank with an electric one. You might be able to recover some costs by selling the boiler & tank (should be no problem selling the indirect if its in decent shape).

Third angle: replace the oil burner with a pellet burning head. Google 'Pellex' for some starter reading on that one - but you'll still be burning way too much fuel just to keep your boiler from leaking.


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## Reckless (Apr 23, 2013)

maple1 said:


> OK - sounds like you've got an indirect hot water heater that is heated by your oil boiler. And that you can't turn off the boiler or let it go cold because it will leak (from what you posted). That all means you're kind of up against it on a couple of fronts. Just keeping the oil boiler warm so it won't leak is costing you all kinds of standby losses, before you even get to talking about keeping your hot water heater hot (likely most of your oil is going to standby losses now) - I know, I used to have a boiler like that.
> 
> The problem with supplementing or pre-heating your DHW is that you will still need to keep your boiler warm to stop it from leaking. Proverbial rock & hard place. Do you know how cool your boiler can get before it starts to leak? Two angles of thought - either come up with something solar powered (or maybe heat pump powered) and use that to keep your boiler hot (that heat would get transfered to the indirect tank eventually) - or scrap that boiler for a newer cold-start one that you can let go cold, and replace the indirect tank with an electric one. You might be able to recover some costs by selling the boiler & tank (should be no problem selling the indirect if its in decent shape).
> 
> Third angle: replace the oil burner with a pellet burning head. Google 'Pellex' for some starter reading on that one - but you'll still be burning way too much fuel just to keep your boiler from leaking.


Alot of good points there, I was more worried about keeping the tank warm rather than keeping the furance warm. What is the easiest way to determine the temp that the boiler will leak? And will running the supplement directly to the boiler first keep it warm enough to stop it from leaking AND also keep the DWH temps up? Those are my main objectives now, thank you!! As for pellets... no thanks I have 4 acres of free heat, maybe a oil/wood boiler that will run base board down the road somewhere but I just bought this house and have other things to spend money on.


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## maple1 (Apr 23, 2013)

You could turn the aquastats down a bit at a time until you notice it leaking, then note the boiler temperature - if you know how to do that. Or just turn it off for a while & watch it periodically until you see a leak then note the temperature. The higher the temperature that the leak appears at, the more up against it you are. I had my boiler turned down to around 140° for summer DHW. It had coils in it rather than an indirect tank, but I think you'd still want the boiler at least that temp for DHW production - depending on usage. My boiler used to leak just below 140 so I was right on the edge with mine.

How old is your boiler? What model? Where exactly does the water come from when it leaks? If it's fittings you might be able to get the leaks stopped. Mine liked to drip from around the coils - I had to take the shell/skins off to see the source of the leak. What temperature is your boiler maintaining? If on the hot side (180?), you could try turning it down to around 140-150 for the non-heating months. That's what I would check out first & right now. The higher the maintained boiler temperature, the more your standby losses will be - at the expense of reduced DHW recovery time.

If you could get your boiler so it wouldn't leak when it goes cold, I'd replace the indirect tank with an electric one & shut the boiler off for the non-heating months. You might be able to sell the indirect for more money than it would cost for a new electric one, depending on model, age & condition - and your monthly operating costs would be significantly lower.


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## Circus (Apr 23, 2013)

I agree with everyone else. Your hemorrhaging money feeding the boiler just for a little hot water. For now, shut down the boiler and buy a conventional water heater. Natural gas price is at a ten year low and you'll be using less than half the fuel than now. You can always add solar later.
Guess it all depends on where and how bad the boiler leaks, whether parts are available and if you have natural gas.
An electric heater would also save fuel if you don't use much hot water. Besides, they're not vented and they make good solar storage if you change the anode every six years or so.


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## Reckless (Apr 23, 2013)

maple1 said:


> It had coils in it rather than an indirect tank


 
Bought the house 3 months ago and Im a first time home owner so forgive me in advance.....
My hot water tank has a coil in it also, Im not sure if it makes a difference or not. Boiler is a weil-mclain built/installed in 87 and its a really shallow fire bow. When I went to check the temp on the boiler it was at 140 and boiler kicked on and went up to 190. The hot water tank is set for 125ish (was at 150 and was scalding). I cannot tell where the leak is and the only time I noticed it is when my FIL shut the boiler off over night by accident (In the middle of january :| ) and there was a small puddle of water coming from the bottom, but it hasnt leaked since.



Circus said:


> For now, shut down the boiler


Like I said it leaks when shut off and I have a ton of other projects to do rather then take apart the boiler and find the leak. It does need a cleaning soon so maybe I can work with the oil guy and he can help me locate the source.


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## maple1 (Apr 23, 2013)

I would adjust the aquastat so it only heats to 160 rather than 190 - that should reduce some heat loss, although you'll still be losing it. The 190 is needed more for keeping up with space heating demands.

Maybe insulate what you can (is your piping insulated?).

That's for starters - you'll have to fit further action around your schedule & priorities. But it shouldn't take a whole lot of work to at least see where/how it's leaking - or if the oil guy is coming for a service soon you could shut it off for a while before he comes so it'll be leaking when he gets there so he can tell you where it's leaking from. It could be something as simple as bad flange gaskets somewhere or a valve stem. Those old boilers generally weren't designed to be let go full cold (they like to be kept hot all the time), but if it was done gradually & infrequently (twice a year?), I'd try it. Don't know what you're spending on oil for DHW in the summer months, but I'm at around $30/mo (at 0.16/kwh) using a new 80 gallon electric hot water heater for a family of 5.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 23, 2013)

Isn't it already operating as a cold start boiler?  I mean, if it's summertime and the indirect tank is up to temperature, it could be hours before the boiler starts up again.


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## maple1 (Apr 23, 2013)

No - the boiler maintains set temperature even with no call for heat. From above that sounds like 140-190.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 23, 2013)

That's too bad.


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## Reckless (Apr 23, 2013)

maple1 said:


> No - the boiler maintains set temperature even with no call for heat. From above that sounds like 140-190.


Correct. Now to find the adjustment


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 23, 2013)

Reckless said:


> Correct. Now to find the adjustment


The aquastat cover is probably a rectangular box with a screw on one side....when you remove the screw, you can pull the plate off and see the settings. (Or, take a pic and we can point you in the right direction)

On the settings, there will be a high, low and differential. For the high setting, if it is set at 190, try knocking this down to 170 or so if you are only using hot water and not your baseboard heating. Give this setting a week or 2 and see how it goes...if still ok, maybe turn the high down to 150-160 and try that for a few weeks. (I suggest gradual reductions just so you can see how your hot water performs vs just going from 190 to 140)

Also, you may have to adjust the mixing valve for your domestic hot water....i.e. by turning the high setting down, the hot water will not be as high a a temp as before, and you might have to back off some of the cold water so water from your tap/showers is where you need to be at.


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## maple1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Such are the inefficiencies of heating DHW with a boiler in the non-heating season....


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## Slow1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Do all boilers work this way when running with a tank?  I'm wondering if mine is doing the same - it is supposed to be a high efficiency model, but if it is sitting 'on idle' all the time then I can certainly see that I could improve the situation by changing my hot water heating.


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## Reckless (Apr 23, 2013)

Slow1 said:


> Do all boilers work this way when running with a tank? I'm wondering if mine is doing the same - it is supposed to be a high efficiency model, but if it is sitting 'on idle' all the time then I can certainly see that I could improve the situation by changing my hot water heating.


 If your boiler heats you hot water heater then probably yes


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## maple1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Newer 'cold start' boilers don't fire unless there is a call for heat - depends on make & model.


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## Slow1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Well, I want to do something about my DHW - I burned an average of .66 gal/day since last fill.  Previous year was about .61.  I expect the increase is due to kids growing up (more showers - 4 kids, 3 girls that should explain a lot).  Anyway, perhaps I can find a manual for my boiler and see how it works.

I have excess solar production on an annual basis as well - utility company won't write me a check so going electric for DHW seems like a good idea, just need to find the best way to do it.  I'd be really disappointed if it didn't virtually eliminate the oil burn.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Newer 'cold start' boilers don't fire unless there is a call for heat - depends on make & model.


You can make any boiler do that,i converted all my oil boilers that dont make DHW to cold start,lest they run all spring,summer and fall maintaining water temp.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2013)

Reckless said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> So bought a house with an oil fired water heater and am looking for ways to keep the furnance off (I heat mostly with wood stove). Anybody in a similar situation? Ive been looing into on demand or solar supplement. Any other ideas? Is the right section?
> The extent of my knowledge on solar is http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/choosing-a-solar-system-to-supplement-your-water-h.html
> ...


Any electric HWH will do the job much cheaper than oil.I have a 30 Gallon electric HWH and it does my family of 5 quite well. Some situations would call for a bigger heater 40 or 50 gal. Such as filling a jacuzzi tub or a family that takes back to back showers at the same time of day. By all means get rid of that oil burner !!


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## woodgeek (Apr 23, 2013)

Everyone, the OP has a boiler that leaked a puddle of water once when he let it go cold!  This severely restricts his options re saving oil.  I think he might want to let it go cold again and see if the leak 'repeats'.  Hard to say.  The thing is 26 yo.  If it does repeat, his best option IMO is to eat the standby loss, maybe wrap the boiler in roxul or equivalent to minimize losses, and save for a new heating/DHW system.  At 26 yo, he will need it soon.


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## woodgeek (Apr 23, 2013)

Reckless said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> So bought a house with an oil fired water heater and am looking for ways to keep the furnance off (I heat mostly with wood stove). Anybody in a similar situation? Ive been looing into on demand or solar supplement. Any other ideas? Is the right section?
> The extent of my knowledge on solar is http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/choosing-a-solar-system-to-supplement-your-water-h.html
> ...


 
Many of us have indeed been there....but your situation is unusually bad.  Your boiler is near the end of its life, and failing (leaking upon shutdown) in a way that limits your options.  I wouldn't waste any time trying to set up a HPWH or solar 'life support system'....I would ditch it this summer.

FYI, it may be leaking when it is hot, and just evaporating the water....this can lead to sooty operation, the unit choking on soot and releasing CO without warning, more severe leaks w/o warning.  Not trying to scare you...but I would make sure to have a **good** CO monitor in the same room, and prob get a water alarm too if a leak would cause water damage.  I would prob shut off the makeup water supply if I were going out of town (that way if it leaks it won't fill up your basement).  For the record, my old boiler CO'ed my family 2X, once below alarm threshold, for a couple months!!  Its scrap now and good riddance!


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## velvetfoot (Apr 23, 2013)

If you can't get natural gas, you could maybe get a late model oil boiler from someone who converted.


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## maple1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> You can make any boiler do that,i converted all my oil boilers that dont make DHW to cold start,lest they run all spring,summer and fall maintaining water temp.


 
Not if they leak when they cool down.


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## jdp1152 (Apr 24, 2013)

I've got three solar panels for hot water you can have if you're willing to come get them.  Sitting in my garage waiting for me to rent a dumpster when I redo my siding.  They were functional when I took them down...previous owner said they provided 30% of hot water in winter and most all of it in the summer.  I can't attest to those numbers, but I know my oil consumption last summer was very low.  The panels heated a 120 gallon water tank which then fed to a tankless heater that provided any boost needed.  They were ugly and in my front yard so I didn't want them there and no where else in my yard had the right access to sunlight.


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## 4acrefarm (Apr 24, 2013)

Very good advice to sort out here. Being a new homeowner your to do list is long. I had Put an 80 gallon electric when I was in the same predicament.I hope to build a diy  solar setup now. I would start with an energy audit from your power co. They may be able to hook you up for tax credits , possible loans or grants?


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## woodgeek (Apr 24, 2013)

I would mention that the backup electricity kWh usage on most solar DHW systems in the Northeast is about the same as the kWh to run a HPWH that makes the same amount of hot water. If you can avoid running a dehumidfier in a basement b/c of the HPWH, it can easily be cheaper to run than solar!

Budget option:
You could get a geospring with great local and fed tax rebates this summer, and (if you're handy) do the install yourself. Might cost the same as your next 6 mos of oil. Shut down the boiler now, drain it if necessary, and buy 4 cheap elec space heaters with thermostats and next winter either (1) leave it down and go to wood + elec space heater backup or (2) try to get the old girl running when the real cold weather arrives (and hope the leak is not now worse), and keep the space heaters on hand if/when the boiler fails.

My experience with these things leaking is that they close up over time....if you let it go cold, I would NOT drain it if possible. It might leak a little and then stop. If that works, I would again turn off the water supply (to avoid flood risk) and leave the boiler filled all summer, since I would **guess** draining it would just lead to more internal corrosion. If you can get it shut down, then maybe you can baby it for winter heat for a couple more seasons??? with a good CO detector!

I would also not trust the techs. Have a guy clean it (for $200), but if you ask him too much about the boiler, he might decide to talk you into replacing a bunch of stuff. All the oil techs I talked to at the end were scammers who didn't know how to properly adjust the burner!


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 25, 2013)

Woodgeek gives some good advice. The issue with these internal coils are that the boilers are designed to run all year long, so I am kinda in the same boat as I can't really do anything cost effectively until the boiler craps the bed and I look at alternative options. My oil tech indicated the same issues as woodgeek...one idea was also to install an electric hot water heater and completely bypass the internal coil, but then you risk the boiler leaking when it is shut off for a long period of time. (We had an ice storm back in 2009 here, and my boiler was only off for 5 days and we had significant leaking at the seals) Perhaps make some adjustments on the aquastat for now to see if you can reduce your oil useage by 5-10% during the summer. Good luck


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## maple1 (Apr 25, 2013)

Reckless - do you have access to natural gas?

(Not the beans & burritos kind...)


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## Reckless (Apr 26, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Reckless - do you have access to natural gas?
> 
> (Not the beans & burritos kind...)


 
No


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## Reckless (Apr 27, 2013)

Well I have a new problem. My aquastat is on the lowest setting which is 180. So do I just deal with it until I replace my unit of try to get a new aquastat installed?


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## woodgeek (Apr 27, 2013)

180 is the lowest setting?  Sounds weird. Does the aquastat have a part number...can you google up a manual or other info?


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## maple1 (Apr 27, 2013)

+1 what woodgeek said.

Pictures are worth words by the thousands.


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## raybonz (Apr 27, 2013)

jdp1152 said:


> I've got three solar panels for hot water you can have if you're willing to come get them. Sitting in my garage waiting for me to rent a dumpster when I redo my siding. They were functional when I took them down...previous owner said they provided 30% of hot water in winter and most all of it in the summer. I can't attest to those numbers, but I know my oil consumption last summer was very low. The panels heated a 120 gallon water tank which then fed to a tankless heater that provided any boost needed. They were ugly and in my front yard so I didn't want them there and no where else in my yard had the right access to sunlight.


Interesting..


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## Ansky (Apr 28, 2013)

I'm in the same predicament.  I have an oil burner and its running all year long to give me hot water.  Since feb 4th, I used 101 gal of oil, and most of that was for hot water.  I barely used my oil heat at all...my stove took care of the heat.   I'm guessing a little less than a gallon of oil a day for hot water.  

My DHW is set to 120* and my aquastat is set to 145*. Is that a good setting?  I don't know where to set it to be most economical.  Anyone know?

I know I ultimately need to get an electric hot water heater, as gas is not available in my area.  But for the time being, I'd like to set my aquastat at the most economical setting...just not sure what that is.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 28, 2013)

Ansky said:


> t all...my stove took care of the heat. I'm guessing a little less than a gallon of oil a day for hot water.
> 
> id like to set my aquastat at the lowest economical setting...just not sure what that is.


A gallon of oil a day translates into over a hundred $ a month for HW. Way too much,go electric. The lowest economical setting in the meantime? Try turning it down 10 degrees at a time and give it a day or two to decide.


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## Reckless (Apr 29, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> 180 is the lowest setting? Sounds weird. Does the aquastat have a part number...can you google up a manual or other info?


Looks like honeywell L8148A 2nd pic is at the 180 and 3rd shows the stopper not letting me go lower.






***Edit***Now that I have that model number I found this https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/honeywell-l8148a-aquastat-relay.25911/ Maybe a wood furnace (in series) and a new aquastat will be the answer to all my questions? (try to pick one up on the cheap)


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## raybonz (Apr 29, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> A gallon of oil a day translates into over a hundred $ a month for HW. Way too much,go electric. The lowest economical setting in the meantime? Try turning it down 10 degrees at a time and give it a day or two to decide.


You need to realize that it's not good for a boiler to go stone cold especially if you need it for backup.. My boiler tends to leak if it goes cold iron and there is no backup if you let the boiler go cold. Couple this with high electric rates in many places such as here where I live and you may save very little if anything plus my boiler can deliver hot water 24/7 if needed... I will also add that letting a boiler go cold is not good for the boiler either as a warm boiler doesn't have condensation/rust problems..

Ray


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## velvetfoot (Apr 29, 2013)

My Burnham boiler is 8 years old or so, set up as a cold start since new, and hasn't leaked yet (knock on wood).  I put in an electric water heater since I figured it would pay back quick over the indirect.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 29, 2013)

raybonz said:


> You need to realize that it's not good for a boiler to go stone cold especially if you need it for backup.. My boiler tends to leak if it goes cold iron and there is no backup if you let the boiler go cold. Couple this with high electric rates in many places such as here where I live and you may save very little if anything plus my boiler can deliver hot water 24/7 if needed... I will also add that letting a boiler go cold is not good for the boiler either as a warm boiler doesn't have condensation/rust problems..
> 
> Ray


I only convert the boiler to cold start if im going to install an electric HWH. In this case its so much cheaper than running an oil boiler just to make HW. THey are so ineffecient as they continuall lose the heat up the chimney while on standby. Many new boilers are "cold start" The only reason to keep a boiler at a set temp is if the boiler provides domestic hot water. Surely your not suggesting to run a boiler only required for space heating all summer just to over come condensation. IF your basement has humidity issues it will affect more than just he boiler. I use a dehumidifier in summer to overcome dampness/high humidity.


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## raybonz (Apr 29, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I only convert the boiler to cold start if im going to install an electric HWH. In this case its so much cheaper than running an oil boiler just to make HW. THey are so ineffecient as they continuall lose the heat up the chimney while on standby. Many new boilers are "cold start" The only reason to keep a boiler at a set temp is if the boiler provides domestic hot water. Surely your not suggesting to run a boiler only required for space heating all summer just to over come condensation. IF your basement has humidity issues it will affect more than just he boiler. I use a dehumidifier in summer to overcome dampness/high humidity.


This Burnham boiler is 25 years old and I have no plans to replace it..


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 29, 2013)

raybonz said:


> This Burnham boiler is 25 years old and I have no plans to replace it..


Thats about its rated lifespan . Soon it may leak even when kept hot. although you could get a few more years out of it. IS it OIL?


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## raybonz (Apr 29, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Thats about its rated lifespan . Soon it may leak even when kept hot. although you could get a few more years out of it. IS it OIL?


I have seen oil and other boilers go much longer than that..  Where do you come up with this info?

Ray


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## Reckless (Apr 29, 2013)

raybonz said:


> I have seen oil and other boilers go much longer than that.. Where do you come up with this info?
> 
> Ray


Mine is closer to 30 and it is oil and has no signs of failing (only leaks when cold)


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## woodgeek (Apr 29, 2013)

30 years is the figure I always heard....mine started going south at only 15 years, but the cheap bastid that owned the house before me (I think) left it off and stone cold all summer, except when he needed some HW.  At least that what his ex told me.  And made me buy the 75 gallons of #2 he left in the tank from him (at the going rate $1.50/gal)!

I think the price runup in 2008 would have killed him....I paid $1000 for the peak fill.


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## 4acrefarm (Apr 29, 2013)

My oil boiler is shut down and run cold start for backup. It leaked when cold once, several years ago. I put an  electric tank in and never looked back. I burned an entire tank of oil before I realized I needed to change.


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## Circus (Apr 29, 2013)

I don't know your boiler but the American Standard I'm familiar with had a flat plate which is replaced with the coil assembly if hot water is wanted. If you replace the coil assembly with the original flat plate the leak might be gone. Though the leak is probably just an old O ring on a sensor or something. Maybe the leak will stop on it own after a week or so. Try to get the flat plate.
PS If your boiler is really that old, I bet the flue pipe is Swiss cheese.


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## woodgeek (Apr 29, 2013)

I think the OP should def try shutting down, and see if the leak repeats/closes up.  I think running at low aquastat settings, with condensation and soot, is worse on the boiler than just shutting it down in the summer, and running it hot (e.g. 160-180) during the heating season.  The parasitic losses in the winter are at least helping to heat the place.  The losses are mostly out the sides, and not up the flue, if the boiler has a flame retention burner (commonly a Beckett).


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## maple1 (Apr 30, 2013)

Reckless said:


> ***Edit***Now that I have that model number I found this https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/honeywell-l8148a-aquastat-relay.25911/ Maybe a wood furnace (in series) and a new aquastat will be the answer to all my questions? (try to pick one up on the cheap)


 
If you're thinking about adding on a wood unit (presumably a boiler) - you've just gone to a whole other level of possibilities we weren't likely considering.

Time to step back & think long term evaluation.

But first, for right now, there has to be a way to turn that boiler down - I'm not familiar with that stat though & it's hard to tell without getting hands-on. Even if you do get it turned down, the sound of the burner cutting in with no call for heat on hot summer days would be like nails on a chalkboard to me - I would do whatever it took to make a new electric hot water tank work in your situation. Even if that came down to replacing your boiler with a new cold start one.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 30, 2013)

raybonz said:


> I have seen oil and other boilers go much longer than that.. Where do you come up with this info?
> 
> Ray


From their warranty,but your right some do go much longer depending on conditions. I have a few much older than that. Every case is different and call for different solutions. I also agree that condensation can be a problem as well but in my case my coal boiler puts out a lot of standby heat which would not be desirable in summer plus the amount of coal needed just to keep it lit makes it non cost effective for summer use. If your not using that much oil in summer, by all means leave it be. You cant use a cold start boiler for domestic hot water anyway.


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## Ansky (Apr 30, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> A gallon of oil a day translates into over a hundred $ a month for HW. Way too much,go electric. The lowest economical setting in the meantime? Try turning it down 10 degrees at a time and give it a day or two to decide.


Yeah, I estimate that I am spending about $100/mo to heat my DHW with my indirect oil burner.  I also estimate that I will spend about $40/mo to heat that water with an electric heater.  So after the upfront cost, I think I'd have less than a year break even.  The problem is that the $60/mo savings is only for the months that I don't require oil heat and I can turn the burner off.  For parts of jan-mar, we supplement with oil heat, so the burner will be on anyway.   So now I'm paying additional electric and oil.  

The other issue is I don't want to ruin the burner by shutting it down for 8 months.  It's a Buderus system (supposedly a nice top notch system from what people tell me) and its only 9 years old.  You guys are scaring me with this leaking issue when cold. I'm not sure what to do at this point.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 30, 2013)

Boiler going cold is not a problem unless high humidity is present. In a low humidity situation you should not have a problem. Problem is, basements are notorious for high humidity.


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## maple1 (Apr 30, 2013)

I don't think you'd get much condensation anyway in letting a boiler go cold. It's just sitting there at a constant temperature. If you had cold water running through it, that would be another story.


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## maple1 (Apr 30, 2013)

_*You cant use a cold start boiler for domestic hot water anyway.*_

You can't? Why?


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 30, 2013)

maple1 said:


> _*You cant use a cold start boiler for domestic hot water anyway.*_
> 
> You can't? Why?


That should be obvious. A boiler that is not equipped with a double aquastat does not maintain water temp thus "cold start" rather is activated from a call for heat from a thermostat. I have changed several boilers to a single aquastat so as NOT to maintain boiler temp when not calling for heat ,and then installed an electric HWH. Of course you could convert a cold start system the other way as well. The  idea  is to eliminate the fact that a boiler continually lose,s heat up the chimney when sitting idle. A wasteful way to store water that has just been heated with $3.50 a gallon oil


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## maple1 (Apr 30, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> That should be obvious. A boiler that is not equipped with a double aquastat does not maintain water temp thus "cold start" rather is activated from a call for heat from a thermostat. I have changed several boilers to a single aquastat so as NOT to maintain boiler temp when not calling for heat ,and then installed an electric HWH. Of course you could convert a cold start system the other way as well. The idea is to eliminate the fact that a boiler continually lose,s heat up the chimney when sitting idle. A wasteful way to store water that has just been heated with $3.50 a gallon oil


 
Right.

So if that "cold start" is activated by a call for heat from an indirect hot water tank, then you're heating DHW with a cold start boiler.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 30, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Right.
> 
> So if that "cold start" is activated by a call for heat from an indirect hot water tank, then you're heating DHW with a cold start boiler.


In that case it may work as long as the cold water from your boiler doesnt start flowing through your indirect hot water tank before it reaches a high enough temperature. If you boiler is off long enough the water in it may be room temp.


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## bemental (Jan 1, 2015)

jdp1152 said:


> I've got three solar panels for hot water you can have if you're willing to come get them.  Sitting in my garage waiting for me to rent a dumpster when I redo my siding.  They were functional when I took them down...previous owner said they provided 30% of hot water in winter and most all of it in the summer.  I can't attest to those numbers, but I know my oil consumption last summer was very low.  The panels heated a 120 gallon water tank which then fed to a tankless heater that provided any boost needed.  They were ugly and in my front yard so I didn't want them there and no where else in my yard had the right access to sunlight.



Anyone take you up on those panels? Better late then never!


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## jdp1152 (Jan 1, 2015)

Had a few people come look at them, but no one followed up so off to the dump they went.


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## bemental (Jan 1, 2015)

Apologize for resurrecting an older thread, but there was a great deal of information contained in this post that was revelant to an existing problem I'm having and I'd like to share my current research, proposed solution, and perhaps get a sanity check from the community before I pull the trigger. 

After purchasing our home in Maine a few months ago, we immediately knew that we would like to wean ourselves off oil as quickly as possible. Additionally, diversifying our energy needs across multiple sources seems most logical to avoid being economically gouged elsewhere (high prices on electricity, propane, natural gas, pellets, wood, etc.), and efficiency is also on our list of important. 

While we're considerate of the environment, for the sake of conversation let's stick to strictly fiscal decisions for the time being. 

-----

We currently have an older-model [Smith-Pac *Fourteen*](https://www.dropbox.com/s/9e96dimht8qb8at/Smith-Pac Fourteen Boiler Package Unit.pdf?dl=0) oil boiler delivering multiple zone heating and DHW to our home. After much research and number crunching, I've found a [Rheem 50 gallon hybrid heat pump electric HWW](http://t.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-EcoS...r-with-Heat-Pump-Technology-HB50ES/204077079/) that with rebates and incentives will cost $600 before installation. 

The sanity check: does installing the hybrid HWW and disabling our furnace's DHW capabilities logistically make sense? 

Our furnace currently is spotty at delivering DHW, especially during showers, so there are other reasons than the fiscal driving our decisions at this point, but monetarily, with a 2.7 year payback and a return on investment of 229% over the 12 year warranted life of the product (and for an installed price of around $1,000), it seems like a no brainer. 

The Rheem wouldn't necessarily be my first choice of product, what with the non-replaceable anode, but again, with a 12 year warranty I'm not going to be too finicky about it.


Thanks in advance,
Andrew


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## maple1 (Jan 1, 2015)

How will you heat the house?


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## woodgeek (Jan 1, 2015)

YES, it makes sense.  In your climate your savings might be somewhat less than they look on paper, due (depending on siting details) to either low air supply temp or heat stealing in the winter.   If your boiler is throwing a lot of heat into unused space (like a basement furnace room) and the HPWH is there, the the heat stealing is not really a loss.  If the HPWH is in a semi-conditioned space like a v cold basement, it will not deliver the rated EF.  If the HPWH is located in 100% conditioned space far from the boiler, about half of the delivered HW BTUs in the winter will come from the boiler, and the other half from the elec grid.

If the anode is described as 'powered', then non-replaceable is not an issue at all...its permanent.  If not, they presumably put in a thick enough one to last the warranty period, and you are still aok, unless you know your water chem leads to premature HWH failure.

When I researched this a couple years ago, the Rheem products were inferior eff-wise to AOSmith and GE units.  Since the GEs get bad reviews, you might still look for the new AOSmith 50 gallon HPWH.


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## bemental (Jan 1, 2015)

maple1 said:


> How will you heat the house?



Continue to heat the house using the furnace, only utilizing the closed-loop, zoned, hot water base board heating.


I can't yet confirm if the furnace has a tank inside, primarily because I don't know HVAC systems at all, but regardless I would prefer to use it the least amount as possible (and potentially shut 'er down during the summer). 

The furnace does have its own thermostat on the side, I believe dictating the boiler's water temperature.


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## woodgeek (Jan 1, 2015)

A fuel burner heating water is a boiler....inside it is prob a multi-section cast iron unit resembling an oldey-style steam radiator with your water on the inside and oil-fired hot air on the outside.  The control is a box called an aquastat.  The poor HW service means that you likely have a tankless coil....a long coil of copper pipe inside the boiler that heats HW flowing through it.  As the boiler cycles on and off, the temp can vary a lot, and delivered water can too.  I lived with that for 6 years, and then ditched it.  O frabjous day.


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## bemental (Jan 1, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> YES, it makes sense.  In your climate your savings might be somewhat less than they look on paper, due (depending on siting details) to either low air supply temp or heat stealing in the winter.   If your boiler is throwing a lot of heat into unused space (like a basement furnace room) and the HPWH is there, the the heat stealing is not really a loss.  If the HPWH is in a semi-conditioned space like a v cold basement, it will not deliver the rated EF.  If the HPWH is located in 100% conditioned space far from the boiler, about half of the delivered HW BTUs in the winter will come from the boiler, and the other half from the elec grid.
> 
> If the anode is described as 'powered', then non-replaceable is not an issue at all...its permanent.  If not, they presumably put in a thick enough one to last the warranty period, and you are still aok, unless you know your water chem leads to premature HWH failure.
> 
> When I researched this a couple years ago, the Rheem products were inferior eff-wise to AOSmith and GE units.  Since the GEs get bad reviews, you might still look for the new AOSmith 50 gallon HPWH.



Thanks for the speedy response, I've read similar about the GE's, and a few bad reviews about the Rheems but at this price it may be worth the risk. Again, that warranty... I'll have a look around for some AOSMith's as well. 

Regarding location, unconditioned, below ground basement. Temperature around 55-60 year round so it shouldn't be an issue. Will be near the furnace so the best stealing you described isn't too big of a deal, and the dehumidifying will we welcome. Might even help to season the wood we store down there.


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## bemental (Jan 1, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> A fuel burner heating water is a boiler....inside it is prob a multi-section cast iron unit resembling an oldey-style steam radiator with your water on the inside and oil-fired hot air on the outside.  The control is a box called an aquastat.  The poor HW service means that you likely have a tankless coil....a long coil of copper pipe inside the boiler that heats HW flowing through it.  As the boiler cycles on and off, the temp can vary a lot, and delivered water can too.  I lived with that for 6 years, and then ditched it.  Very happy day.



Described our system correctly. Doesn't look like there's a separate storage tank for additional capacity. 

I did find a 'mixer valve' that was set on the colder side (120). I've bumped that up a few degrees to see if it helps - figure we'd rather control the cold water mixing at the taps and not all at once at the furnace, but I'll measure the temperature of the hot water at the faucets to make sure we're still safe.


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## bemental (Jan 1, 2015)

jdp1152 said:


> Had a few people come look at them, but no one followed up so off to the dump they went.



Thanks anyway!


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## woodgeek (Jan 1, 2015)

My old system was the same.  I hate those valves. They are designed so that if the temp of the HW feeding them gets below the set temperature, they close, making the delivered water 100% cold water.  (You might think they would 'pass' 100% of the undertemp HW instead, but they don't).  This leads to the famous cold bursts in showers. 

So, experiment.  Raising the temp on the valve might make the service worse if it closes (more) when the boiler is cycling to its low temp.   Conversely, dropping the valve temp might lead it to regulate the variable temp water from the boiler better.

You can also google about aquastats on the interbloobs and maybe get the boiler to run a little hotter for better HW service (at lower eff).


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## bemental (Jan 2, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> YES, it makes sense.  In your climate your savings might be somewhat less than they look on paper, due (depending on siting details) to either low air supply temp or heat stealing in the winter.   If your boiler is throwing a lot of heat into unused space (like a basement furnace room) and the HPWH is there, the the heat stealing is not really a loss.  If the HPWH is in a semi-conditioned space like a v cold basement, it will not deliver the rated EF.  If the HPWH is located in 100% conditioned space far from the boiler, about half of the delivered HW BTUs in the winter will come from the boiler, and the other half from the elec grid.
> 
> If the anode is described as 'powered', then non-replaceable is not an issue at all...its permanent.  If not, they presumably put in a thick enough one to last the warranty period, and you are still aok, unless you know your water chem leads to premature HWH failure.
> 
> When I researched this a couple years ago, the Rheem products were inferior eff-wise to AOSmith and GE units.  Since the GEs get bad reviews, you might still look for the new AOSmith 50 gallon HPWH.



After reading your comment, I dug back into the research and found this thread (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-geospring.128122/) - seems that a lot of the poor reviews are from earlier models of the GeoSpring when manufacturing was outsourced overseas. 

The Rheem I was looking into only has a 1-year labor warranty, something I was ignorant about until further investigation. Now that I know that Lowes offers a $100, 9-year extension for the labor warranty making the GeoSpring 10yr/10yr parts and labor, that the GeoSpring's anode is replaceable, and Lowes is currently offering it for $200 less than the Rheem ($799 versus $999 before rebates and discounts), it seems like a no brainer.


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## woodgeek (Jan 2, 2015)

Sure.  But there are also bad reviews for the new unit, FWIW.

I think the essential point is that versus oil you might make back the price of the unit in a couple years.  In 3-4 years you'll be ahead of the cost of a conventional cheap elec HWH.  I would def do the ext warranty on parts and labor, just to sleep well at night.

Nest step: research for rebates from your local utility co.  I got $300 from mine.

Also, are you sure your boiler can sit all summer without leaking, most can, but some older units drip a bit when they go cold.


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## bemental (Jan 2, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> Sure.  But there are also bad reviews for the new unit, FWIW.
> 
> I think the essential point is that versus oil you might make back the price of the unit in a couple years.  In 3-4 years you'll be ahead of the cost of a conventional cheap elec HWH.  I would def do the ext warranty on parts and labor, just to sleep well at night.
> 
> ...



$300 state rebate, 10% military discount. Agree on break even calculations, especially in heat pump only mode. We don't have natural gas or propane in the home as of yet so an electric model makes the most fiscal sense to purchase for now. 

Regarding the boiler, not at all. It's a conversation I'm going to have with the plumbers who are coming to do an estimate in a few days.  

If it's unable to sit cold, then a straight bypass of the boiler might not be feasible. Will instead have to discuss placing the HWHP inline as the primary, with the boiler as backup (if this is even possible). Means the boiler will be maintaining temp. all summer long, but from what I understand we'd be able to turn the temperature down to lower the inefficiencies(?).


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## woodgeek (Jan 2, 2015)

Dropping the oil boiler water temp too far can lead to condensation (water vapor is a product of combustion), and that leads to sooting up of the heat exchanger and premature failure of the boiler.  The boiler is likely happier sitting cold (i.e. off) than trying to maintain a low water temp with lots of low temp burns.  Most are simply not designed for that.

The bad news...your oil boiler running standby at a reasonable temp in the summer will likely cost 80% as much as using it for hot water.  That is, in the summer maybe 20% of oil BTUs go to heating water...the rest is just waste heat dumped up the flue and into your house.  In my case I used 300 gallons of oil during the summer, and my hot water BTUs would have been maybe 50 gallons of oil equivalent.

Most boilers can sit cold, unless they are really on their last legs.  To avoid rust, if the basement is damp in the summer you can run a dehumidifier or put a (incandescent) light bulb under it.

Personally, once you confirm the boiler can sit cold in the summer, I would just retire the tankless coil completely and pipe in the HPWH rather than plumb a complex primary/secondary/bypassable system.


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## bemental (Jan 2, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> Dropping the oil boiler water temp too far can lead to condensation (water vapor is a product of combustion), and that leads to sooting up of the heat exchanger and premature failure of the boiler.  The boiler is likely happier sitting cold (i.e. off) than trying to maintain a low water temp with lots of low temp burns.  Most are simply not designed for that.
> 
> The bad news...your oil boiler running standby at a reasonable temp in the summer will likely cost 80% as much as using it for hot water.  That is, in the summer maybe 20% of oil BTUs go to heating water...the rest is just waste heat dumped up the flue and into your house.  In my case I used 300 gallons of oil during the summer, and my hot water BTUs would have been maybe 50 gallons of oil equivalent.
> 
> ...



Thanks for repeating yourself for my benefit, I've read you elsewhere saying that many a time and it's sound advice. 

For now I believe we'll proceed as planned, just as you suggested and the conclusion I previously came to, by 'retiring' the tankless coil. Once the warmer months come along the experimentation will come with going cold and checking for leaks, maintenance, etc. 


Thanks for the great advice and insight.


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