# CT Installer Help



## Pologuy9906 (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm looking for an installer for a wood burning boiler with storage in CT. This is an indoor unit. Can't seem to find anyone that knows how these things work. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Splitmonster (Nov 27, 2013)

Main-line up in ashford. They do a lot of out door boilers and some indoor stuff. Thats where i would start. Other wise keep reading and reading and reading. Thats what i did here on this forum, then i built my own


----------



## JMac23 (Nov 27, 2013)

Where in CT are you located?


----------



## SIERRADMAX (Nov 27, 2013)

The guy I bought my econoburn from knew of wood boiler & solar installs. One Way Plumbing and Heating in East Haddam, CT.


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 4, 2013)

fairfield county. Redding, Ct. I called Main Line and they dont come this way. I called at least 15-20 plumbers and they all said no. Ill try One Way tomorrow.


----------



## NoobTube (Dec 4, 2013)

Hey I'm also looking for an installer for a pellet boiler for next year. The only recommendation I've had before in CT, (BTW I'm right in your area as well) is Blazing Hot Stoves in Oakville. My parents bought a Harmon Pellet Insert from them and my brother bought a freestanding pellet stove. I know they Carry Harmon Boilers, so its a good place to start and they definitely will come to Fairfield County. I plan on calling them regarding an install of a Pellet boiler for next year.


----------



## henfruit (Dec 4, 2013)

Pologuy, What is the reason all these plumbers are saying no?


----------



## NoobTube (Dec 4, 2013)

My guess would be the same reason why most plumbers have been saying "no" regarding my Steam Heating System in my multi-family house. They don't know how to, or they don't want the hassle. I've had a heck of a time trying to find a good plumber who will do this kind of work, and this is coming from a guy who is FRIENDS with a handful of plumbers.


----------



## SIERRADMAX (Dec 4, 2013)

I think alternative fuel installs aren't popular in southern New England as opposed to up North. The money is in cities where N.G. is popular. Although recently, I came across 3 people who have installed pellet/wood boilers, they've had the same experience... Couldn't find anyone local to install.


----------



## NoobTube (Dec 4, 2013)

I've heard greater success in RI over CT. Unfortunately Lower CT, is a barren desert when it comes to Pellet and wood boilers. I would say alternatively, Solar is very popular here. In northern CT and North Eastern CT, I've heard of many home owners with pellet boilers and wood boilers. I think it comes down to land and zoning in many circumstances.


----------



## henfruit (Dec 4, 2013)

I think steam is a whole different animal than hot water.


----------



## NoobTube (Dec 4, 2013)

I can't agree more with you^^^ I ended up reading a ton about it on some heating forums and basically was able to troubleshoot and fix it myself by increasing and replacing venting in my Steam system.


----------



## JMac23 (Dec 4, 2013)

Ya I'd love to help you out just a little to far for me from West Hartford.


----------



## Briquetmaker (Dec 4, 2013)

Pologuy9906 said:


> fairfield county. Redding, Ct. I called Main Line and they dont come this way. I called at least 15-20 plumbers and they all said no. Ill try One Way tomorrow.



Pologuy, are you thinking of doing any work yourself?  I'm in Bethel. Did my own install and could show what I did.


----------



## REFire (Dec 4, 2013)

Polyguy I did this install in Roxbury CT. Not that hard, I am in Greenwich CT.  Do you intend to do any of the work yourself?


----------



## stratton (Dec 5, 2013)

REFire said:


> Polyguy I did this install in Roxbury CT. Not that hard, I am in Greenwich CT.  Do you intend to do any of the work yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pologuy
call BRIA PLUMBING 203-395-5030 They did a super clean install for me. If interested,call me and take a look. Im in fairfield.
                                                                                                                                                                Luke 203-610-7667


----------



## NoobTube (Dec 5, 2013)

REFire: With that install it looks like its stand alone, not done with a a backup in a garage or barn? Cant tell. Did you do all the work exhaust work included?

Nice, just checked they are out of Bridgeport. That's definitely encouraging. Did they do all the plumbing and the exhausting as well? I'm pretty close with one of the main guys at CAS so he might be able to help me with the exhaust end of it.


----------



## REFire (Dec 5, 2013)

Noob Tube: Backup is in the basement where the HX is tied in the Hot Air Furnace. Did all the work myself.


----------



## NoobTube (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks, that is great!! What kind of unit is that? I'm not familar with it? Is it comparable to a Windhager? I know prices aren't supposed to be discussed, but in general if you know what the Windhagers are going for, is it comparable? 

Thanks


----------



## REFire (Dec 5, 2013)

NoobTube said:


> Thanks, that is great!! What kind of unit is that? I'm not familar with it? Is it comparable to a Windhager? I know prices aren't supposed to be discussed, but in general if you know what the Windhagers are going for, is it comparable?
> 
> Thanks



It is a Tarm Solo 30 wood gasification boiler, not a Pellet Boiler.


----------



## NoobTube (Dec 5, 2013)

OOOh ok for a second there I thought I might have another contender! Thanks though! Looks great!


----------



## GS7 (Dec 7, 2013)

REFire said:


> Noob Tube: Backup is in the basement where the HX is tied in the Hot Air Furnace. Did all the work myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great installation, looks like you added heat to your garage, nice!


----------



## GS7 (Dec 7, 2013)

NoobTube said:


> My guess would be the same reason why most plumbers have been saying "no" regarding my Steam Heating System in my multi-family house. They don't know how to, or they don't want the hassle. I've had a heck of a time trying to find a good plumber who will do this kind of work, and this is coming from a guy who is FRIENDS with a handful of plumbers.



I'm in CT too and have had the exact same experience with plumbers and hvac guys. They are not familiar with wood boilers and end up suggesting propane or higher efficiency oil, or at best those wood/oil  combo units which none are an option for me. The ONLY unit I'll install is the Woodmaster Fuel Flex 60kw and I really, really need an installer too. I'm in the  New Haven county area.


----------



## henfruit (Dec 7, 2013)

I think that is an over temp zone not heat.


----------



## henfruit (Dec 7, 2013)

How do you like it with the heat exchanger on the return side of the system?


----------



## REFire (Dec 7, 2013)

henfruit, that is a dump zone above the boiler.  If power goes out the automag valve opens and gets rid of heat if boiler is burning.  HX works great on the return side, whole system works great. Also have over heat zone but not hooked up.  Boiler has DHW coil  which can cool down over heat if necessary, just need somebody to soak in the hot tub or take a long shower, pumps out a lot of hot water.


----------



## REFire (Dec 7, 2013)

GS7 said:


> Great installation, looks like you added heat to your garage, nice!


G57 ,no heat in garage that is just a dump zone above boiler if the power goes out,.


----------



## GS7 (Dec 7, 2013)

REFire said:


> G57 ,no heat in garage that is just a dump zone above boiler if the power goes out,.


gotcha that makes sense


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 9, 2013)

Briquetmaker said:


> Pologuy, are you thinking of doing any work yourself?  I'm in Bethel. Did my own install and could show what I did.



I need a plumber to do the install for insurance reasons. Sad there's no one in the area. I had a few people come out and state they will get back to me with a quote. No quote yet.


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 9, 2013)

stratton said:


> Pologuy
> call BRIA PLUMBING 203-395-5030 They did a super clean install for me. If interested,call me and take a look. Im in fairfield.
> Luke 203-610-7667



Thanks for the information. I have no intentions on doing the work. Im willing to assist in way that I can. My insurance company stated they want to see permits. I really want to get this done ASAP. Sad there's no one in Fairfield county


----------



## __dan (Dec 9, 2013)

Pologuy9906 said:


> Thanks for the information. I have no intentions on doing the work. Im willing to assist in way that I can. My insurance company stated they want to see permits. I really want to get this done ASAP. Sad there's no one in Fairfield county



Hey Polo, I know we talked in the threads but I don't recall the details.

Honestly, the experience you are conveying was predictable, in my opinion as someone who has had a trade contractor's license since 1989 and bid construction for 20 years as a contractor.

Without writing a dissertation on why this is so, I will try to be brief and helpful. The problem basically is contractor's have their own standardized solutions to offer the customer that they do in volume. Each contractor will have a different variation, different boiler brand, different control and loading strategy, and have to face the market demand, which is typically for the lowest upfront installed price. Just quoting a standard gas boiler three times will yield three variations, condensing boiler, non condensing, tankless or indirect tank DHW.

I can tell you that the variations I would choose to build to would add thousands to the installed price. It has always been in my nature to overbuild compared to the market.

My standard recommendation in all construction bid situations like this is for the customer to spend as much time as necessary in design. Once you know what you want and have a tightly detailed plan and spec, you would be ready to go out for bid. If you have an engineered plan, any of the local trade contractors, I'm sure, would be happy to bid and work to your plan.

That would be a sticking point imo, having no buildable prepared drawing, bid documents, and asking local contractors for a design / build in a situation that is rare and unfamiliar to them. If you have an engineered plan prepared for your custom solution, all of the local guys will be able to build it.

You would also be fighting the busy time of the year for heat. People don't want to spend money on heat in the summer. they only open jobs up when it gets cold and they get chilly or turn on the tstat and it doesn't work. It's like asking for A/C in August. All the guys will be busy when the weather gets unbearable but maybe waiting for work to come in when the weather is mild.

That would be my suggestion. Spend the time and money just on a professionally prepared design with a tight spec. If you go for bid with that, I'm sure the local guys would be happy to have the work.

If you have already puchased the boiler, the dealer should be able to help you with either a buildable drawing or the name of an experienced trade contractor.

I see some predictable difficulties and maybe some misconceptions about contractors. I am in Ct with an E1 about two hours travel from you. The problem I see at this time is going out for bid without a plan or drawing that is buildable with a minimum of changes.

The lowest cost job is one that is built right the first time, even if the upfront cost is substantially more. Many customers do not discover this until after the build, or never.

Did you already buy the boiler?

If you can get a professional, buildable, drawing prepared, I think you will be able to get competitive bids from local heating trade contractors. Or as already suggested, keep looking for contractors who have experience with successful wood boiler installations


----------



## henfruit (Dec 9, 2013)

Dan, If he has plumbing design for the install and a wiring diagram for the system, then why couldn't a plumber work on time and materials? I just had a customer plumb his whole system to storage and wire it and do all the smoke pipe work in about 3 1/2 days total.


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 9, 2013)

Hey Dan,

I have specific specs per the manufactuers manual. That's been given to each person who came out. I honestly think its fear of the unknown. NOONE was interested in exploring something new. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel.


----------



## __dan (Dec 9, 2013)

Pologuy9906 said:


> Hey Dan,
> 
> I have specific specs per the manufactuers manual. That's been given to each person who came out. I honestly think its fear of the unknown. NOONE was interested in exploring something new. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel.



Is there an online version of the drawing we could take a look at. The only drawings I'm aware of that I would have confidence in their completeness are the Tarm USA drawings. Just the factory manual may leave too much variability in the design, the point where the near boiler piping stops and the load header, control strategy, OAT reset, begins. I'm already guessing that most of the manufacturer's instructions I have seen would yield thousands in changes.

Maybe let the board proofread your design drawing while you hunt for a contractor?


----------



## __dan (Dec 9, 2013)

henfruit said:


> Dan, If he has plumbing design for the install and a wiring diagram for the system, then why couldn't a plumber work on time and materials? I just had a customer plumb his whole system to storage and wire it and do all the smoke pipe work in about 3 1/2 days total.



Your customer was in the top 5% of talent and ambition for that kind of work. 3 1/2 days, yikes, I don't know what to say. I am a tortoise.


----------



## REFire (Dec 9, 2013)

Pologuy,what make of boiler is it that that you are trying to get installed? No where in this thread is there any mention of make or model.


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 10, 2013)

Fuel Flex 60kw with 600 gal of storage. Propane wall unit as the backup system. This will be direct vented outside. The current oil tank and boiler will be removed. This will free up the flue for the wood boiler. Manufactuer has a very detailed picture of what they would like used as far as piping goes. I have 4 zones currently. I will add a fifth. I want pumps for each zone rather than zone valves.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 10, 2013)

To my knowledge the FlexFuel is an open system / non pressurized.
The majority of the plumbers have no idea what an open system is 
This answers why you did not get any estimates so far.
Post the picture from the manual and the members of this forum will weigh in on how complete and usable it is, or just generic


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 10, 2013)

http://www.woodstoves.net/documents/Wood-Master/7994-300_Flex_Fuel_Manual_Rev13-4_email.pdf


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 10, 2013)

Do you have all these parts & pieces, the open tank?
This scares plumbers. It's like a red flag.
Did you read the warranty: "Failure to send in a water sample annually will void the warranty"
This is related to the open system.

As mentioned before by another member, I also recommend you make your own schematic specific to your situation ! !


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 10, 2013)

Yes I'm aware of the requirements. I did a lot of homework and after doing the due diligence, this the best choice for my family and I. I have a wife who will also be involved in the day to day usage of the unit.


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 10, 2013)

I'll try to figure out how to draw out the schematics for my situation. I just assumed the installer would look at the manual and tie into my system. The manual is pretty specific about the way they want it hooked up.

Any suggestions on creating the schematics? Plumbing is not my area of expertise


----------



## maple1 (Dec 10, 2013)

Was reading the manual also. It calls for an annual or semi-annual 'blowdown' to be performed. What is a 'blowdown'?

I wouldn't let the fact that it is open stop me if it was what I wanted. There a quite a few guys on here running open boilers - Empyre Elites & Garns are both open. There is also a diagram in my manual if you wanted to install a Varm as an open boiler - although not as detailed as the one in the Flex Fuel manual. Someone on here must have some drawings that could be helpful in your install. I didn't re-read the thread - did you ask your dealer for help on that? Having no local knowledge to turn to can be a big drawback & very frustrating - nobody around here had any clue to what I was doing when I did mine. Installers or suppliers. I was totally on my own. The main supplier I used here didn't even know what an Alpha pump was.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 10, 2013)

I would start with making a piping diagram of what you currently have with your old oil boiler.

The FF60 will heat the 600 gal storage, the storage will take the function of the old oil boiler

Do you have more specifics on the 600 gallon storage tank?

what heat exchanger are you using to separate the open side from closed side (page 12 - TOP schematic) ?


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 10, 2013)

A few pictures of what I currently have


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 10, 2013)

See updated schematic
Circulator A and B need to work to getter, and this in function of boiler water temp (anti-condense protection)
Circulator C can only pump when storage is at set minimum temp. No need to pump cold water around.
The gas boiler you talked about should also charge the 600 gallon tank.
You will need to figure out a control logic for this gas boiler that works with the FF60 fire protocol.
200,000 BTU is a big boiler. Your heat exchanger (FPHX) needs to be able to match this heat output!


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 10, 2013)

Do you need a chimney liner with that wood boiler?


----------



## maple1 (Dec 10, 2013)

Not sure why you should heat storage with a backup heat source? When I hit backup, it only heats my zones - I'd rather re-charge storage with my wood.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 10, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Not sure why you should heat storage with a backup heat source? When I hit backup, it only heats my zones - I'd rather re-charge storage with my wood.


 
Good point. At the other hand it's maybe more efficient then on/off, on/off, on/off, ... .


----------



## ewdudley (Dec 10, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Not sure why you should heat storage with a backup heat source? When I hit backup, it only heats my zones - I'd rather re-charge storage with my wood.





PassionForFire&Water said:


> Good point. At the other hand it's maybe more efficient then on/off, on/off, on/off, ... .



I don't heat all of storage with my backup boiler, just a half hour's worth so the backup boiler doesn't short cycle.  However this did make return protection necessary on the backup boiler.


----------



## maple1 (Dec 10, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Good point. At the other hand it's maybe more efficient then on/off, on/off, on/off, ... .


 
Good point there as well. Mine does cycle. Backup buffer? Something else to add to my long list of things to think about.


----------



## __dan (Dec 10, 2013)

Couple of quick thoughts:

The oil boiler looks like the typical three section cast iron, rated ~ 100,000 btu. What would scare me (for you) is if the boiler is oversized by double. The 60 kW FF boiler could heat your house plus two of your neighbor's houses. That's the first question to have answered, is the boiler right sized and does it have the ability to turn down the firing rate for low demand. The manual says it will slow the fan speed for low demand, but the effectiveness of boiler turndown could be zero if you're turning down from 200,000 btu to 125,000 btu and the load is 25,000 btu. Fuel consumption, efficiency, operability will all miss the target area if this is wrong.

The oil boiler you have is perfectly suited to short cycling, firing for five minutes and waiting for twenty minutes, the duty cycle. The cordwood boiler cannot do this. It is always on and putting out heat when firing, for hours, until the fuel load is exhausted. This is to say that a smaller boiler firing longer is indicated compared to a much larger boiler firing for shorter time.

This is what the dealer or installing contractor should do first before buying material or touching the tools, the heat loss calc, then the design and equipment choices will fall out of that. If you truly have a 200k btu load in a normal house, you may want to look at windows, siding, and insulation to get the load to the normal area. If the heat loss calc says the boiler is oversized by double, returning the boiler for the right sized unit would be first on my list.

Over the life of the install, efficiency or lack of, operability, and maintenance issues, will be a far bigger number compared to the initial cost of the install. Good design and implementation will save you the cost of the design fee many times over.

Some of the high efficiency boilers will operate with the flue gas near condensing temp at parts of the cycle (mine does). The masonry chimney will not like condensate and usually a stainless liner is indicated. The manual says regular chimney, but again it depends on the heat extraction and firing rate of the boiler. The liner may be added later if necessary. Condensate will not be a problem when the boiler is ripping into a matched load.

If was bidding that, I would want to add an outdoor reset controller and variable speed injection pump or valve between the tank and the loads even with conventional HW baseboards. Would also add an indirect DHW tank and eliminate the electric DHW. I know my view would add thousands of dollars to the install cost.

The instructions say the changeover from pellet to cordwood is done manually, changing the insert and the pellet chute. As long as you know this and it meets the requirements for automatically running central heat, I would be OK with this and not have a second, backup boiler. That scenario would not work for most customers who are hands off. Also, for the low demand times, do you want to labor to run the big boiler or do you want something that runs in auto with no manual intervention

I have not read all of your thread but I am assuming a normal residential load (~ 2,000 sf) with some insulation and conventional, good quality construction. The only thing I see that scares me is if the boiler is misapplied for the load. A problem like this is easy to fix in design or before construction, but very expensive or impossible to fix after the installation and before discovery of the problem.


----------



## maple1 (Dec 10, 2013)

I think the 'oversized boiler' issue is less of an issue with adequate storage attached.


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 10, 2013)

My house is 2600 sqft and the basement is 1400 sqft. O initially thought this unit would be oversized buy the storage would require more btus. I'm order to burn less frequent the 100,000 btuunit they carry won't cut it. 

This unit has the ability to burn in a partial load mode. I agree on designing prior to install. 

To change from pellet to wood is very simple as well.


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 10, 2013)

O don't intend to have my storage heated by my backup.


----------



## __dan (Dec 10, 2013)

In order to burn less, you need to increase the overall efficiency of the system. That's the boiler, OA reset, doors, windows, and insulation. That's what the numbers will show. Rightsizing the boiler will increase system efficiency and reduce total fuel consumption.

The larger boiler will burn at a much faster rate, fuel consumption will go up, your labor feeding fuel is more. (It is 2x normal size)

At peak demand times when you can use the excess heat production, maybe you will save some loading cycles with larger loads, but the weather is mostly not at peak demand, and the same number of loading cycles with smaller fuel loads in the right size boiler may meet demand. It seems to be a wash, by guesstimating. It is not every day that you will be saving a loading cycle, but it is every day that you will need to add more fuel because of higher standby and idle losses with the larger boiler.

Many days, demand will be a small quantity, but more fuel will be needed to bring the larger system up to working temp. That is where the problem will be.

I would think the ideal scenario is a 24 hour ride through from the boiler with storage. This gives you a number that can be calculated for the storage tank size. Make one fire a day in the morning for showers and bringing the house temp up. Burn time may be ~ 3 to 4 hours, but burn when the boiler is firing into the house peak load. If you need to add fuel again later in the day, if the system works at max efficiency, the fuel needed will be less.

If you are firing when the house load is at max, you are not using storage too much. Storage is needed because the baseboard loads short cycle, running a little all day, and to absorb the excess boiler output. The larger boiler could require larger storage and larger near boiler piping.

The 30 kW, 100,000 btu boiler is a big boiler. It's a lot of output, especially when it's burning at the design parameters, efficiently, into the normally expected load.

I am certain the big boiler would scare the bidding contractors who know your load by looking at at it for a few seconds, or over the phone. Many, but not all, contractors will hesitate or walk away from a job that indicates problems for them and the customer down the road. If they think the load is in the range of a 30 kW boiler, a customer asking them to install a 60 kW boiler is a huge red flag.

Some additional fuel consumption (labor) would seem to be the only downside to the larger boiler, plus some additional install cost for larger equipment. My predisposition is to specify more expensive materials upfront, but in a way that is reliable and economical over the life of the install.

Rightsizing the equipment takes advantages of the millions of dollars and thousands of man hours that has already been done for you by the factory in the design, engineering, and rating of their equipment. One cannot really ever say that the factory is wrong without showing some numbers or engineering to back it up.

It all goes back to the first question, what is the load, the heat loss calc, then the numbers will show what the fuel consumption will be, how many loading cycles, how much storage is indicated.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 10, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I think the 'oversized boiler' issue is less of an issue with adequate storage attached.


 
Is 600 gallons adequate for what the OP is aiming for?

600 x 8.35 Lbs/gal = 5,010 Lbs of water
lets assume a usable dT of 185F-140F= 45F

5,010 x 45 = 225,450 BTUs stored in the tank.

If the house needs 50,000 BTU/hr that is 4.5 hours of heat

Unless I miss something, that's not a lot for spending all the money.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 10, 2013)

Pologuy9906 said:


> O don't intend to have my storage heated by my backup.


 
This is not issue right now, like EWD pointed out


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 10, 2013)

Consider the information that was given to you today on this forum of high value!
I assume you paid for the wood boiler already.
If not go for a smaller model, or exchange the bigger for a smaller model. Take the loss if needed!
If yes, see if you can get much more storage.
If more storage is not an option, ....
I don't want to discourage you, but that's were you stand right now.
Good luck.


----------



## maple1 (Dec 10, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Is 600 gallons adequate for what the OP is aiming for?
> 
> 600 x 8.35 Lbs/gal = 5,010 Lbs of water
> lets assume a usable dT of 185F-140F= 45F
> ...


 
I have 660 gallons. Right now I start a burn about this time of day, burn about a load & a half, and call it good. The fire is pretty well out as I'm heading to bed. Repeat. So my storage gets me about 18 hours from the time the fire is done until I light again. In the dead of winter that will increase to about 2.5 loads burned, and I'm looking at about 14 hours. 20 year old 'conventional' construction two story on a windy hilltop.

I would like more storage but haven't figured out how I can fit it in yet. I could likely skip somewhere around 1-2 months of burning days a year if I could increase to where I could skip a day in shoulder seasons or gain an extra day of coasting in summer DHW days. That's quite a bit of fire lighting in the run of a year, and a lot less cold startups.

So 'adequate' is in the eye of the beholder. If I was putting in a 60kw boiler I'd do all I could to get at least 1000 gallons in. So maybe 600 is inadequate? But 600 gallons would likely hold a burns worth of heat, which is what others may aim for - and consider adequate. Also, IMO, as long as storage will hold at least a burn worth of heat, and can coast you to the next day as you want it to, it all but takes boiler sizing for load out of the equation - at least as far as being oversized. I do try to time my burn so that it is ramping up to full burn just as my loads get to calling most (in the evening).

I guess I better go light a fire now.

No-Pro Disclaimer: I am no pro.


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 10, 2013)

My thought is of the unit is undersized and my goal is 1000 gallons of storage, it will only heat to the btus it could put out. it would seem that the 30kw would be right at the maximum limit. With the 60 it would Give me the opportunity to burn less frequent. 

One thing I read a lot on hearth is learning your system. Warmer days simply burn pm partial load settings. When it's really cold burn at full capacity. 

Just my thought. I emailed the manufacture to ask some of the great questions posed here. This is why this would not be done without all the input I received here


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 10, 2013)

What was your year round heating oil consumption in winter 2011/2012 and 2012/2013 ?


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 10, 2013)

I honestly didn't track the gallons used. I wasted just under $3000. Sad part my house was still cold.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 10, 2013)

$3,000 of oil
Lets assume oil is $3.85/gal, what equals around 780 gallons.
Lets also assume you burned all this oil in Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb and March: 5 months

780 gallons x 138,000 BTU/gal = 107,640,000 BTUs over 5 months
or
107,640,000 / 5 months = 21,528,000 BTU/month
or
21,528,000 / 30 days per month = 717,600 BTUs per day
or
over 24 hours = 29,900 BTU/hr
over 12 hours = 59,800 BTU/hr

So, we know that the heat load is somewhere between 30,000 and 60,000 BTU/hr
The peak heat load may be higher then 60,000 BTU/hr

The 50,000 BTU/hr that I used earlier will give 4.5 hours of storage (in 600 gallons)
if you can double the storage to around 1,200 gallons you can store heat for around 9 hours.
This will allow you to go trough the night without firing the wood boiler

If you check how much wood the FF60 holds you can calculate roughly how many time you will need to fire the wood boiler.
When you bring in the efficiency and moisture content, I believe you will end up with between 6,500 and 7,000 BTU/lbs of wood.
Check some topics from Jebatty; he made a lot of good posts on this forum with real world data.

somebody will need to fire the wood boiler.
Depending on the size of the thermal storage this may be 2x per day.

Also key is that you have well seasoned firewood.

Roughly:
if you burn wood pellets, you will save roughly 50% over oil; so $1,500 or 6 to 7 tons of pellets
if you burn cord wood you will save roughly 75% over oil

Payback with wood pellets for a $20,000 install is >13 years
Payback with cord wood is around 7 years


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Dec 11, 2013)

The crazy part is I used $3000 but my house was only warm primarily on one zone. If I had every zone heated to 65 It would have been more like $4500. O believe my actual need would ne considerably more.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 11, 2013)

Pologuy9906 said:


> The crazy part is I used $3000 but my house was only warm primarily on one zone. If I had every zone heated to 65 It would have been more like $4500. O believe my actual need would ne considerably more.


 
Maybe you should look first into heat saving improvements: insulation of walls, attic insulation, windows and doors.
This type of investment pays off big time, because cost for heating will only go up.

In MA we have free energy audits.
I'm not sure what information you get out of such an audit, but you get some good info out of it.

For CT:
http://www.cl-p.com/home/saveenergy/rebates/homeenergysolutions.aspx
http://www.ct.gov/opm/lib/opm/pdpd_energy/consumer_faq_home_energy_audit_program.pdf


----------



## maple1 (Dec 11, 2013)

*The 50,000 BTU/hr that I used earlier will give 4.5 hours of storage (in 600 gallons)
if you can double the storage to around 1,200 gallons you can store heat for around 9 hours.
This will allow you to go trough the night without firing the wood boiler*

So how, then, am I going minimum 12hrs (assuming coldest day ofthe winter here), and about 18 now (daytime highs of -5°c), without burning, on 660 gallons? I paid attention when insulating & air sealing 18 years ago, but I didn't go beyond conventional practices then. 12" of fiberglass in the attic, 6" in the walls, 2700 sq.ft. in two stories on an open hill top. I never did use just oil for heat, but if I had to I'd estimate it would take at least 1000 gallons to get me through a year. And the house would be colder than it is now.


----------



## Proud Sub Vet (Dec 11, 2013)

NoobTube said:


> My guess would be the same reason why most plumbers have been saying "no" regarding my Steam Heating System in my multi-family house. They don't know how to, or they don't want the hassle. I've had a heck of a time trying to find a good plumber who will do this kind of work, and this is coming from a guy who is FRIENDS with a handful of plumbers.


 For what this is worth... in my prior house (1910 Victorian.. NO insulation, original windows) when our 1940's era single-pipe steam boiler finally croaked, I used Solv it (they seem to service most of CT) - anyway, they were FABULOUS, very knowledgeable and thorough.  (We replaced something the size of a Mini Cooper and replaced it with something more along the size of a dishwasher!)  I highly recommend them if they are able!


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Jan 1, 2014)

Hate to report, I had a company come out who installed a unit and wanted to charge me $20,000 for the labor on a propane backup which takes one day and the boiler with storage. Seems like that we're trying to hit a home run. 2 guys working 5 days would be $125 hour. That's beyond extremely high for a plumbers labor cost.  Bria's Plumbing came in much too high. So the search continues.

Seriously thinking of a Attack and do the install myself.


----------



## __dan (Jan 2, 2014)

Pologuy9906 said:


> Hate to report, I had a company come out who installed a unit and wanted to charge me $20,000 for the labor on a propane backup which takes one day and the boiler with storage. Seems like that we're trying to hit a home run. 2 guys working 5 days would be $125 hour. That's beyond extremely high for a plumbers labor cost.  Bria's Plumbing came in much too high. So the search continues.
> 
> Seriously thinking of a Attack and do the install myself.



Hey Polo;

Did you ever get a reply from Flexfuel. Were they willing to vouch for, verify, that the 200kW boiler is suitable for your application?

Regarding contractors, they are in general competitive, want to work, and the cost structure is heavily dependent on the expense structure of being in business, which is through the roof. Especially true of small family operations, they work for food and to pay bills. Large operations have larger expense overhead. Lowest cost is for jobs they do a lot of in volume. Anything that looks like it will slow the job down (changes, design errors) gets added to costs.

I still believe a good local guy (heating contractor) can do the job, provided with a detailed buildable design plan. Asking for design/build may be too much for regular guys.

That said, knowing guys from being in business, I did not want anyone touching my house or boiler construction. To get the quality I wanted, which was far above where the market is, I knew I had to do everything myself. I don't recommend it, but it was necessary in my case.


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Jan 2, 2014)

Yes a 200 is ok for my application. The 100 may have been right on the edge. I tried supplying schematics and still increased pricing. I'm getting to the point of selecting another brand. Last time I checked there were only a couple of units I would absolutely stay away from. I love the UL Listed this unit supplies as well as the option to run cord wood and pellets.


----------



## Pologuy9906 (Aug 4, 2014)

Going with the 30kw. After taking the advice and getting the heat calc done. Going with 855 gallons of storage.


----------

