# Non Pressurized Storage...



## GENECOP (Nov 21, 2014)

Finally adding some storage.....after reading and researching,  and considering the space I have to work with, and cost considerations, I have decided to build my own. 3x4x 5' tall.....400 or so gallons, wood framed, reinforced with steel corners and edges..Concrete interior,  skinned with a cementious waterproof liner..Still deciding on the heat exchangers.....Coil exchangers all good to go run around $600, not sure if I can save some money making my own.....Was considering adding copper fins to 1" copper pipe, just not sure if all that labor will make a significant difference, will post photos, any thoughts on the heat exchangers will be welcomed...thanks.


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## GENECOP (Jan 18, 2015)

Ok, made a little progress, got the box built, the grooves will accept Steel C channel running horizontally. The corners will then have 3x3 steel  corners overlapping the C...inside will be covered in Hardi board, then 1-1/2" concrete panels, I am planning to embed pex in the concrete with a feed and return out the top for a possible future heat exchanger..The main heat exchangers will be two copper systems, top and bottom, here are a few photos...


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## GENECOP (Jan 18, 2015)




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## GENECOP (Jan 18, 2015)




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## GENECOP (Jan 18, 2015)




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## GENECOP (Jan 18, 2015)




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## GENECOP (Jan 18, 2015)




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## GENECOP (Jan 18, 2015)

The heat exchanger on the bottom will have 4 levels, 1" manifolds with 1/2" in the field, I also will attach some flat sheet stock, hopefully these (fins) will add the the heat exchange...The tank will be about 400 gallons, the exchangers will sit about 3" off the bottom and the dimensions place it about 3" off the side concrete walls. I could have purchased the Heat exchangers, but  what fun would that have been...There will be many levels of insulation around the tank, it will be built in my shop, and reassembled in my basement...


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## GENECOP (Jan 18, 2015)

Today in Long Island close to 50 Deg, mini fire only, Oil Burner in service, just for today....


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## GENECOP (Jan 18, 2015)




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## GENECOP (Jan 18, 2015)




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## perchin (Jan 18, 2015)

Nice... Is the copper for inside the tank? I'm a newb. I'm guessing though that the water from the boiler runs through the copper, heating the water in the tank???


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## GENECOP (Jan 18, 2015)

Yes, my tank will have two sets of coils, one set installed low in the tank to transfer heat to the water, the top coil will draw the heat off for heating needs...


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## Pat53 (Jan 19, 2015)

Wow, that's a lot of sweat soldering ! Make sure you pressure test it first for leaks. I see you have a Greenwood. I have a Seton and since adding 500 gallons storage it runs MUCH cleaner. Good luck, hope it works out well.

Pat


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## GENECOP (Jan 19, 2015)

Pat53 said:


> Wow, that's a lot of sweat soldering ! Make sure you pressure test it first for leaks. I see you have a Greenwood. I have a Seton and since adding 500 gallons storage it runs MUCH cleaner. Good luck, hope it works out well.
> 
> Pat


Yea Pat, I am looking forward to adding storage, I had some, but this additional will get me longer times between loads, I hope...it took me one season to figure out the best way to run the Greenwood, I have had it about 3 years now and my HX is still nice and clean, I run it flat out with very little idle time....some, but not much. I started reading about true indoor gasifiers after I purchased the Greenwood, and after much research I think I am happy I went with the Greenwood...The biggest advantage to me is the abilty to burn LARGE rounds, and even higher moisture content wood...it takes a lot less time to process wood and wood selection is greater when you are not so picky...When the ceramic heats up, no smoke, no creo, and it will burn just about anything...I am sure you know all this, thanks.


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## Pat53 (Jan 19, 2015)

GENECOP said:


> Yea Pat, I am looking forward to adding storage, I had some, but this additional will get me longer times between loads, I hope...it took me one season to figure out the best way to run the Greenwood, I have had it about 3 years now and my HX is still nice and clean, I run it flat out with very little idle time....some, but not much. I started reading about true indoor gasifiers after I purchased the Greenwood, and after much research I think I am happy I went with the Greenwood...The biggest advantage to me is the abilty to burn LARGE rounds, and even higher moisture content wood...it takes a lot less time to process wood and wood selection is greater when you are not so picky...When the ceramic heats up, no smoke, no creo, and it will burn just about anything...I am sure you know all this, thanks.



I'm surprised your HX is staying clean considering you evidently burn some larger, and wetter, rounds. I no longer burn any big rounds and all my wood is 3 years seasoned, mostly red oak. My HX was getting gunked up bad after only 1-2 months burning before adding storage, now it stays pretty clean.  I'm sure I would have gotten rid of my Seton by now without the storage, it would have been too much of a hassle to take the back off and clean that HX 2-3x a season. I will have to take the top panel off mine this summer and replace it, it is rotting out in a few places. I modified my HX location 2 years ago by lowering and moving it forward about 2-3", and I might move it even lower and a bit more forward again so the tubes are even more in the exhaust/flame path.

BTW, when you said "ceramic" did you mean refractory?

Pat


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## GENECOP (Jan 19, 2015)

Pat, I think I read about you moving the HX, unless someone else did it...My HX are staying clean, a few things I do that might be helping....about three times a week I throw in a couple of scoops of Rutland Creosote remover...Once every 5-6 weeks I let the fire die down and do a good chimney sweep , brush the HX, and blow compressed air with a wand in through the exhaust, over the back wall, and run the vacuum at the same time....Also I have a temp gauge , wireless, monitoring water temp in and out, when it hits around 130 out and 120 return, I add wood, there is always a good bed of coals at these temps..I have a draft inducer fan installed, if the damper is open, the fan is on...Lastly the green wood, or wet wood gets mixed in, if a piece is real wet or green, I only add it to a full blast fire....If I do ever have to start cold, I build slow, bringing the firebox up to temp...I always had about 150 gallons of storage, so I am sure it helped, this additional 400 should make a nice difference...One thing I was thinking about Pat, even though everything runs fine, I am always thinking of ways to improve...if the Seton is the same, what do you  think about adding a steel panel as a cieling across the top. Maybe stop it 6-8 from the front, this would force the gas forward then back toward the exhaust..This could be done easily by gluing up a few firebricks to the ceramic, creating a ledge, then just drop a piece of heavy gauge sheet goods in place...just a thought...


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## GENECOP (Jan 19, 2015)

Yes I meant refractory...


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## Pat53 (Jan 20, 2015)

GENECOP said:


> Pat, I think I read about you moving the HX, unless someone else did it...My HX are staying clean, a few things I do that might be helping....about three times a week I throw in a couple of scoops of Rutland Creosote remover...Once every 5-6 weeks I let the fire die down and do a good chimney sweep , brush the HX, and blow compressed air with a wand in through the exhaust, over the back wall, and run the vacuum at the same time....Also I have a temp gauge , wireless, monitoring water temp in and out, when it hits around 130 out and 120 return, I add wood, there is always a good bed of coals at these temps..I have a draft inducer fan installed, if the damper is open, the fan is on...Lastly the green wood, or wet wood gets mixed in, if a piece is real wet or green, I only add it to a full blast fire....If I do ever have to start cold, I build slow, bringing the firebox up to temp...I always had about 150 gallons of storage, so I am sure it helped, this additional 400 should make a nice difference...One thing I was thinking about Pat, even though everything runs fine, I am always thinking of ways to improve...if the Seton is the same, what do you  think about adding a steel panel as a cieling across the top. Maybe stop it 6-8 from the front, this would force the gas forward then back toward the exhaust..This could be done easily by gluing up a few firebricks to the ceramic, creating a ledge, then just drop a piece of heavy gauge sheet goods in place...just a thought...



I don't see any reason why that would not work as long as the baffle (panel) wasn't too restrictive in allowing the exhaust to exit. I moved my HX down and forward after watching the flame path go quickly over the top of the back refractory wall. The outer row of tubes were not even close to being in the flame/exhaust path and then were basically laying right up against the kaowool. Anything that directs the flame path more directly on the tubes should increase efficiency and also help to keep those tubes clean I would think.

I tried the Rutlands several years ago before I had storage and didn't really notice any improvement so I stopped using it.

Pat


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 21, 2015)

Nice work on the hx. Looks beautiful.


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## Pat53 (Jan 21, 2015)

Is this what you meant with the baffle?  The green part in the drawing.


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## kopeck (Jan 21, 2015)

I like it, nice work.

I have 820 gallons of unpressurized storage, works well for me!

K


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## Willman (Jan 21, 2015)

Did you pull the tees on the manifold or hole saw them?


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## GENECOP (Jan 21, 2015)

Pat53 said:


> Is this what you meant with the baffle?  The green part in the drawing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly......do you think it would be worth it? I have some refractory brick, if I glued a couple to the refractory creating a ledge, then I can get a sheet of 3/8" steel, lay it on the brick ledge, and there is the baffle....I think it might improve efficiency , if nothing else, I should create a nice jet stream close to the HE.....G


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## GENECOP (Jan 21, 2015)

Willman said:


> Did you pull the tees on the manifold or hole saw them?



Set up a jig on my Drill press, 1/2"-----4" centers, the 1/2" flex copper slid right in, nice and tight after flux...


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## Pat53 (Jan 21, 2015)

GENECOP said:


> Exactly......do you think it would be worth it? I have some refractory brick, if I glued a couple to the refractory creating a ledge, then I can get a sheet of 3/8" steel, lay it on the brick ledge, and there is the baffle....I think it might improve efficiency , if nothing else, I should create a nice jet stream close to the HE.....G



I was thinking that a piece of that ceramic fiber board would work nice for a baffle also. Its rated for over 2,000F and comes in 1/2' - 2" thickness an its not too expensive either. Yeah, you would have to put something on the side walls of the refractory to support the baffle, but that shouldn't be a problem.

The only thing that might be a negative is that when opening the feed door the smoke would be directed more "in your face" than it already is. that's one thing I don't like about the Seton.... you always get smoked on when you open the feed door !

But yes, I definitely think it would improve efficiency, without a doubt. I was even thinking that when I replace my top skin next summer that I might try a 1 1/2" or 2" piece of that ceramic fiber board in place of the kaowool and sheet metal, providing its strong enough?  If you used 2 - 24"X48" pieces on top instead of 1 - 48"X48" piece( for my 130 model)  you could get easy access to the horizontal tubes, and probably the vertical ones too to some extent, by just removing the back panel.

Pat


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## GENECOP (Feb 2, 2015)

Ok just moved the tank down the basement and started to bolt the framework together......


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## GENECOP (Feb 2, 2015)

Here is the back, (long side) the corners are 3x3 angle, the field rails are 2" C Channel. The tank is 3/4" plywood, with 1/2" overlaid creating the dados to accept the C.


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## GENECOP (Feb 2, 2015)

The room I am installing the tank in is the water main corner of the basement...the pervious owner built a small darkroom, so the space is tight, but the boiler room with my heating manifold is right next to the tank, so piping should be pretty easy....


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## GENECOP (Feb 2, 2015)

The tank will be a corner install, one wall is an exterior foundation, the other is standard 2x4 wall with the boiler room on the other side.. I cleaned the foundation wall and veneered 2-1/2" of rigid foam to it, reflective side facing in....I then glued 2" of the same foam to the 2x4 wall, the tank will get another 1-1/2" of foam glued to it before I slide it back in place.....this will give me 3-4" of rigid foam insulation for those two inside tank elevations.....The base of the tank has 1-1/2" of Foam sandwiched between plywood. The other two elevations of the tank will be exposed and accessible, I will insulate them as much as I want with the room size being the limiting factor...the top, (cover) will have about 4" of foam and maybe a piece of concrete on top....


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## GENECOP (Feb 3, 2015)

Got the tank slid into place today......before sliding it back we wrapped the side and back wall in another layer of 1-1/2" rigid foam.....now the total for the corner walls Is 4-1/2" of insulation....there is a little uneven spacing back there, the existing wall was out of plumb, so before we finish we will stuff some reg fiberglass mat back there.....


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## GENECOP (Feb 4, 2015)

Got most of the concrete set today


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## GENECOP (Feb 4, 2015)

Hard to tell because it still looks like hardie board, the right side shows the end cut of the concrete, the last piece top right side is on my pour tables, it will have some 1/2" pex running through it, kind of like radiant floor on the side of my tank....that one loop will preheat my domestic tank so the nyle will have less to do. The copper HX will be stacked, one set on bottom , one set on top....more to come.


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## GENECOP (Feb 5, 2015)

Just poured the top right panel , here is the form, 1/2" pex running through.....this will just be a preheat for my domestic, it should let the Nyle recover a bit faster......Not the primary function of the storage tank, but I thought , why not get a little something extra out of one of the concrete wall panels....


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## GENECOP (Feb 5, 2015)

This will fill in the open space


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## maple1 (Feb 5, 2015)

I think I would have just stuffed the pex right inside the enclosure with the water. It doesn't really transfer the heat that great. I have 2-100' rolls of 1/2" pex, inside my storage enclosure. Most of it spread out right on top of the bare storage tanks. Then insulation over top. With intermittent use, it likely provides most of our hot water. But with heavy use, like laundry day, the water coming out of it goes pretty well cold after a while.

Certainly is an interesting tank - appreciate the progress shots.


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## GENECOP (Feb 5, 2015)

The tank will be loaded with copper HX ......that few feet of pex in the concrete is just a preheat.....I am keeping all my DHW confined to one 60+ - gallon tank that is heated by the Nyle Geyser...The NG comes preset at 125, in the summer our needs where met, no problem, as we got into the fall and early winter, we noticed since the water temp coming in was entering colder, the NG was having a more difficult time recovering, one option would have been to raise the NG temp 5 Deg. I thought it might be interesting to run the feed for the DHW tank throught that pex simply preheating the water entering, easing the recovery of the NG.......We are closing in on having things set up the way we want, The Greenwood will take care of Heating only, ( with the oil backup ) about 500 Gallons of storage. The DHW will be handled by the Nyle 365 days a year.....


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## Bob Rohr (Feb 5, 2015)

reverse return piping on those copper HX would buy you some more performance.  Supply one header, return from the opposite end of the other side.  With short, low pressure drop "rungs" the closest to the tees will be doing the heavy lifting, the distal ones contributing  much less.  Unless maybe you have a diverter system I'm not seeing.

Just move two caps from the headers to the tee branch.


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## GENECOP (Feb 5, 2015)

Bob Rohr said:


> reverse return piping on those copper HX would buy you some more performance.  Supply one header, return from the opposite end of the other side.  With short, low pressure drop "rungs" the closest to the tees will be doing the heavy lifting, the distal ones contributing  much less.  Unless maybe you have a diverter system I'm not seeing.
> 
> Just move two caps from the headers to the tee branch.



Thanks Bob, I actually have three more levels to add, after I get it built I will post a photo, and hopefully get it right...thanks again....


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## Bob Rohr (Feb 5, 2015)

GENECOP said:


> Thanks Bob, I actually have three more levels to add, after I get it built I will post a photo, and hopefully get it right...thanks again....




A simple example of reverse return with a pair of "harp" style solar collectors.

Now in a perfect hydronic world the header size would step up and down also, but that is not so practical to build.


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## GENECOP (Feb 6, 2015)

Bob, does it look like I am on the right track?


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## GENECOP (Feb 6, 2015)

Feed and return both on the left side, that's about all I was thinking about for Approx 450 gallons of water....this setup would put the heat into the tank, placed on the bottom. For pulling the heat off and right into my radiant manifold, I was thinking about a similar 3 level unit placed in the top half of the tank....


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## GENECOP (Feb 6, 2015)

Side view


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## Bob Rohr (Feb 6, 2015)

Here is what reverse return would look like.

So basically the first, upper level that is supplied, from the left, is the last to return.  This "hydraulically" assures ever cross over "rung" receives the same amount of flow.  1st in last out.

Basically turning every flow path into the identical length, so every rung does the same amount of work, so to speak.

I'm assuming those vertical 1-1/4 pieces are just spacers?

Typically with a plate style HX you have two pumped flows, so you want counter flow, the hot supply sees the cold return from the A to B side.

In a tank of still water you will have stratification, so the upper layer will be in the hottest zone.  Feeding the cold return from your system in that direction would yield the highest heat exchange.

Maybe Tom will add to this he specializes in coils in tanks.


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## GENECOP (Feb 6, 2015)

I see the difference, I would be adding two verticle risers basically introducing flow equally along the entire right side ( all levels) then pressure across and out the back left side all levels.....the way I laid it out the main 1" pipes got filled one section at a time, turning and continuing while pushing across.....your diagram fills all right side legs at the same time, then returns all equally.....if the difference will be significant In your opinion, I will rework it....also do you think I have enough surface area for 450 gallons....the stack is about 26" wide x 32" ......1" mains, 1/2" cross rails....Yes those small verticles are just spacers....


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## GENECOP (Feb 6, 2015)

Maybe I can use this setup for the top transfer, and build the alternate layout new for the lower.....typically are both HX , top and bottom the same ......Since one HX will put the heat into the tank, and the other will pull the heat out....For some reason I am thinking the HX that charges the tank should have more coverage than the top that feeds the heating manifold....


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## Bob Rohr (Feb 6, 2015)

It may not be worth the time and trouble to change the piping, hard to put a number on the performance difference.  Just thinking for the next stack you might consider RR piping.

Heat exchange is mostly about surface area.  The more of the surface you expose to the fluid, the more heat transfer.  Accordingly the hotter the average temperature is across the entire surface, the higher the rate of heat exchange.

With a long series loop, most of the work is done at the front end, highest temperature, as the loop cools, less transfer.

Pressure drop is another part of the puzzle, best to use multiple short tubes, compared to a long series loop.  With  your large header size and very short rungs, pumping requirements should be acceptable.

It would be interesting to watch that working with an infrared camera to see where and how it is transferring energy.  I've done that with solar collectors and radiators to see where the energy is going.  Some solar guys use IR cameras to pick out bad solar evac tubes.

Install a flowmeter on the HX when you pipe it.  Measure the delta T as it runs and you can calculate the amount of energy you are exchanging.

A couple contractor friends in Brooklyn do plumbing for Mikvahs.  They have come up with a formula for building these HX coils that go under the stairs of the bath.  Recording data as the bath warms they can confirm their calculations and design.  The goal is to raise the water temperature from ambient room temperature to bathing temperature in under 20 minutes!  Somewhere around a 40 gpm flow rate.

Notice the multiple header loops.  They have these plated after assembling and pressure testing. 

photo credit: Moses Fishman, NY


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## GENECOP (Dec 4, 2015)

Alright at it again, hope to have the storage online in another week or two..I finished installing the concrete panels, did the coating on three sides and the bottom. Decided to go with a 1" coil for the bottom heat in exchanger.


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## GENECOP (Dec 4, 2015)

Error photo


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## GENECOP (Dec 4, 2015)




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## GENECOP (Dec 4, 2015)

Inside the tank I installed two pieces of copper across the tank, they sit at about 32" off the floor. I have headroom issues above the tank since it is in the basement, so I will compress the coil, open it up once it is inside the tank, and use copper wire to suspend the coil off the two copper pipes. The support pipes will also serve as a base to support the upper exchanger...


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## GENECOP (Dec 4, 2015)




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## GENECOP (Dec 5, 2015)

Got half a day in today, there will be two thermometers, one high, one low, here is the upper.


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## GENECOP (Dec 5, 2015)

The walls of the tank are 3-1/2" thick before insulation, the bulkhead fitting I found could not accommodate that thickness, so I removed about 1-1/2" of wood from the outside of tank, here are the parts.


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## GENECOP (Dec 5, 2015)

I have a couple of concerns, the bulkheads are stamped Epdm...so the water temp should be OK, The thermo well is stainless, so I will be threading plastic to metal at the most vulnerable point...Teflon tape and crossed fingers, any suggestions? Also I purchased some high temp silicone, should I run a bead behind the rubber gasket or just trust the bulkhead gasket as it comes...


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## GENECOP (Dec 5, 2015)

Inside the tank, the thermo well...


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## GENECOP (Dec 5, 2015)

The top right side of the tank must have openings for 6 pipes to pass, I notched the lid at the same locations so the lid will remove after hookup...


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## GENECOP (Dec 6, 2015)

Was not comfortable threading stainless to plastic, so I found some transistion pieces at Grainger, ordered  them today, will post photo when they come...I installed a bulkhead fitting today, used liquid Teflon on the thread, and backed up the rubber gasket with a small bead of high temp sealant...made a special tool to tighten the fitting...


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## GENECOP (Dec 11, 2015)

Getting close..feels like it anyway..this is my Splurge, serves no real purpose that I am aware of, but I saw it in my Grainger catalog and figured it would be cool mounted above the tank somewhere..


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## GENECOP (Dec 11, 2015)

Inside the tank, charging coil in place..


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## GENECOP (Dec 11, 2015)

I think I mentioned I had a condition that had me threading plastic to stainless, I was not happy with that option. I found a transistion fitting, it looks nicely made.


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## GENECOP (Dec 11, 2015)

I have three penetrations, I did everything I could with them, I ran my cement coating up to them after tightening them down and using a thin layer a gasket sealer on the rubber gasket. Finally I ran a bead of high temp silicone around the housing...


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## GENECOP (Dec 11, 2015)

Was going to use a steam boiler site glass to monitor the water level, It would have required two more holes through the tank. I decided to use a lid mounted level, float...not as nice, but fewer penetrations.

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## GENECOP (Dec 11, 2015)




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## GENECOP (Dec 11, 2015)

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[/URL]Not sure how much evaporation I will get, I am sure I will have to add water once in awhile..I can set up to easily do it manually, or I could use this float I picked up. I could wire to a valve the opens when the circuit closes...


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## GENECOP (Dec 11, 2015)

Lastly, for tonight, here are two feeds, two returns exiting the tank..

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## GENECOP (Dec 15, 2015)

Added the top HX section that I originally built for the charge coil, now it fits on the top end of the tank and will hopefully pull heat off. A few more connection to make,  then one of my Plumber buddies will come by next week to help me tie the whole thing into the heating system..

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## GENECOP (Dec 15, 2015)

I pressure tested the home made HX  section with air, then water, I had two small leaks, repaired them, and placed it in the tank..


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## GENECOP (Dec 22, 2015)

Then disaster struck..LOL...my plumber buddy showed up yesterday about 9 AM, we started running copper and gazing at the situation not 100% certain of what had to be done. About noon we where all tied in, pressurized the system, no leaks...THOUGHT we where home free, while bleeding the system we used the water to begin filling the tank, inch by inch, the tank held tough. Half way up, it's about 5 o'clock by now, dinner time. We have a quick meal, go back downstairs, 3/4 full, looking good, almost at the top...Tank Leak...panick mode., 2 hours later tank drained down, about 15 gallons hit the floor, shop vac, nightmare...finished cleanup about 9, passed out about 9:15. Woke up regrouped, short version , the entire tank has a steel frame welded, except the Bottom. The bottom was built out of wood sandwiched 1-1/2" foam, solid but wood, I created a lip that the walls slid into, then screwed from the sides.. Then concrete floor, coating, etc...I think as the weight of 400 gallons started to bear down, very slight settling / compression, occurred in the base, this settling caused a very slight separation between the floor and walls..i have to remove the exchangers, get in, and take a close look, from the top everything looks perfect, but there has to be a crack, it was leaking out pretty good..What to do now, because I hated the look of just shoving in a EPDM liner, I opted for a cement based coating, the coating did not have enough elasticity...I have two options as I  see it, but I am open to suggestions. There are a few liquid EPDM products out there, this would be the easiest..Coat and go, there are also a few companies that will weld up a custom EPDM liner to fit the tank...not sure which way to go yet, the custom liner sounds safer..I am tired but not beaten, Happy Holidays, it's going to be near 70, who needs storage anyway..LOL


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## GENECOP (Dec 22, 2015)

New work to the left in the photo...

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## GENECOP (Dec 31, 2015)

Getting ready for round two, drained the tank, got in, found several small hairline cracks in the bottom coating. Not 100% certain what caused the crack, 1000's of pounds of water bearing down on the bottom had something to do with it..LOL. One of my suspicions is when I meshed the corners, maybe I left air under the mesh, (Bridging) any hollow behind the mesh and coating would failed.   Also , in the base I sandwiched 1-1/2" foam, maybe some compression, not sure. The tank is now dried out, everything looks perfect on the walls, so to treat the hairlines around the joint I am going to run a coating of Gluvit, not sure if anyone has used Gluvit it's a pretty amazing waterproof product. After that sets up Sherwin Williams has a line of commercial coatings, I will coat the entire tank again, Fingers crossed, this time I will fill and test the tank prior to installing HX again...


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## maple1 (Dec 31, 2015)

If this doesn't work out, Tom in Maine can hook you up with a liner.


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## GENECOP (Jan 11, 2016)

Almost ready to go again, even though I will be confident in the tank I did want some insurance, 450 gallons in a finished space would not be good..I am hooking up an exterior pump 1500 gallons per hour. On the floor there will be two water sensors, if they get wet, the pump will go on and empty the tank...PVC / check valve/ it's a contraption, I will be testing it soon..


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## Fred61 (Jan 11, 2016)

I haven't read this whole thread but if these waterproof coatings you're using are rigid rather than flexible you'll probably be going through this exercise again. Tough as they are, they don't like numerous temperature changes.  I would use a sprayable silicone rubber coating.


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## peakbagger (Jan 11, 2016)

I used to use various resilient industrial based tank liner coatings at work. Very few are rated for active movement that will hold up to the temps.  

Lot to be said for Tom in Maine's  PVC liners as long as you don't have any sidewall penetrations. Given your setup I don't know if he can help you but when it comes to heat storage tanks he has probably tried its all.


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## Kristen (Jan 11, 2016)

GENECOP said:


> On the floor there will be two water sensors, if they get wet, the pump will go on and empty the tank



I have a trench-drain,with grill, in the floor of my boiler room (suggested by insurance company, rather than required by them).  In the event of a flood it won't stop the room flooding, but it will allow it to drain reasonably quickly and thus collateral damage should be limited (in duration at least!)


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## GENECOP (Jan 11, 2016)

Thanks all, yes my tank does have penetrations with bulkhead fittings, also if you look back over some of the photos I have some support systems mounted on the inside of the tank, these conditions make a full liner my second choice. Regarding coating, Pond Pro 2000 Concrete has a buildable coating with a service temp of 200Deg F. It's one option, also the company Smooth On has a number of silicone a rubber coatings that might work, they have a distributor near me, I will be stopping by this week...


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## GENECOP (Jan 11, 2016)

Thanks all, yes my tank does have penetrations with bulkhead fittings, also if you look back over some of the photos I have some support systems mounted on the inside of the tank, these conditions make a full liner my second choice. Regarding coating, Pond Pro 2000 Concrete has a buildable coating with a service temp of 200Deg F. It's one option, also the company Smooth On has a number of silicone a rubber coatings that might work, they have a distributor near me, I will be stopping by this week...


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## Nofossil (Jan 11, 2016)

I had to open my unpressurized storage this fall after 10 years. It's a stainless tank with silicone caulking to protect bulkhead pass-through welds. It has copper coils inside. I caulked a sheet of heavy-gauge polyethylene to the top rim, and laid a sheet of EPDM over that, followed by a foot-thick lid of polyiso sheets. The water in the storage tank had a bit of bromine in it to inhibit bacterial growth.

After 10 years, I noted the following:

The silicone caulk held up well, especially where I had taken time to sandblast the stainless.
The polyethylene had completely deteriorated into crumbly black/brown flakes.
The EPDM had stretched out a bit, but was in good shape
The stainless was perfect, and the water was crystal clear
The bromine had created a layer of black oxide on all the copper pipe.
Black oxide is a b*^^%tch to clean off well enough to get solder to flow.
The polyiso sheets had bowed downwards a bit and had some cracks on the bottom layer.


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## GENECOP (Jan 13, 2016)

Thanks NF, that's good info, I also used silicone for the bulkheads..had a good meeting yesterday at "Reinforced Plastics" they are a distributor for Smoothon and a number of other interesting products...so they recommended a  Brushable Polyurethane Compound...it's very thick has a high build multi coat ability and is tough and flexable, I am doing a few tests , during those tests I will submerge in water at 200 Deg F, cycle , cool and reheat...after seeing and handling the dry product, I feel pretty good...I also piped and installed the emergency pump. The water sensor came today, it will be wired into the Argo, I have a few extra spots, the Argo will energize an outlet instead of a circ pump, the outlet will have the emergency pump plugged into it..stay tuned.


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## GENECOP (Jan 16, 2016)

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## GENECOP (Jan 16, 2016)

This is the coating I am running some tests on, it builds very thick....


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## GENECOP (Jan 16, 2016)

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## GENECOP (Jan 16, 2016)

Coated a collander, will be filling with 200 Deg water , letting sit filled for a few days, just want to see how the product deals with temp...I am a concrete fabricator, decorative stuff, cast fireplaces , countertops etc, I also decided to cast a resin piece in concrete, this is the same product serving as a mold...


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## GENECOP (Jan 16, 2016)

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## GENECOP (Feb 27, 2016)

Finally, up and running, cover is on, system is just about balanced out after aall the work we did yesterday..


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## GENECOP (Feb 27, 2016)

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## GENECOP (Feb 27, 2016)

Still lots to do, but tonight I will run off storage and see how far I get, it's not to cold here, but the info will be useful.


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2016)

Changed out to the NRF 33, definite improvement, got the tank up to 135, the Super Store and the new tank at some point balance out and both achieve the same temp...discovered a siphoning issue, the large tank was pushing the heat back to the small Super Store, I will add a Swing check valve and solve that. Now starting to insulate up and close in.

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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2016)

Wrapped the two exposed sides in 1-1/2" rigid ..then R-13 on top of that, tank dropped about 7 degrees today with a couple of zones running here and there...


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## GENECOP (Apr 3, 2017)

Just wanted to update the thread, Storage tank has been working great, but it had challenges, ended up building a vinyle liner, the original cementuous material did not hold...The additional 450 gallons is really appreciated this time of the year..Even thought it's warm today I will build a fire and store up some heat for tonight..


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## tom in maine (Apr 3, 2017)

Let share a tale of woe.
About seven years ago, we changed from our tried and true liner material of 30 years to polyurethane.
This was not brush on, it was sheet material.
It was rated for 200F, was used in fuel cells and came with all kinds of promises of durability and being the next great thing.

We tested it in a tank in our shop for 6 months, boiling it every day.
We then made the change to the urethane.

And then less than a year later, the liners started to let go.
At first I was in denial and suspected incompatability with tape and adhesives we had used.
After another year, we started replacing every urethane liner out in the field.
I have to tell you, it sucked. It cost a LOT of money and damaged our reputation, except that we did and do
stand behind the product. We went back to what we know works and has worked for over 30 years now.

I have read with great interest the use of brush on coatings here and elsewhere on line.
And have made replacement liners for some of them.

My suggestion is this: ask about warranty. The urethane manufacturer threw us under the bus when things went bad.
You are likely only making one tank for yourself, but make sure the material cures and it is THICK.
I would want to see at least 40 mils and more is not a bad thing. You are applying this in the field. It is going to move and sag and
likely not be an even layer of coating. Do not believe anyone who says 10-15 mils in a field applied installation is enough.


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## GENECOP (Apr 4, 2017)

Wow Tom, sorry to hear about your struggles, guess I am in good company...the history of my tank is long and expensive...Being in construction for 30 years and working in concrete and steel the last 10 years the structure of my tank is solid with some unique features...The waterproofing however is / was a long frustrating process..started with a field applied cementuous product, then on to a brush on rubber...I really wanted a NEAT  coating, the idea of installing an oversized sloppy rubber liner was not something I wanted to do..My last attempt was a Vinyle sheet good from BILLBOARD Tarps......40 mil....I cut and glued up a custom liner using HH 66 contact cement....at 150 Deg I developed a pinhole leak somewhere...frustrated I poured in a liquid leak stopper, now I am 5 weeks in, all dry....hopefully the future of my basement floor will be dry....


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## GENECOP (Apr 4, 2017)

Changed out the copper also....swapped out my home made exchanger....currently 100 ft coil charging tank, 50 ft coil taking heat off and into floor radiant..1"


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