# Hard Wood Floor Cupping!!



## Husky (Mar 15, 2015)

Noticed yesterday that my Bamboo hard wood floor is cupping to the right of the pellet stove. It is on about 6 boards wide and about 6 feet long. I had this floor installed 2 years ago. We had a wood stove last year and installed a new pellet stove this year. Last year we burned wood all year without a problem. The cupping has just started in the past week or so. I know it must be because of the RH levels in the room but I am surprised it didn't happen last year if it was going to happen at all. Not sure what to do to get the cupping to reverse itself or if it will at all. Has anyone out there ever had this problem and what did you do to fix it? Any advice would be much appreciated.


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## Highbeam (Mar 15, 2015)

How wide are the planks? Nailed like a real hardwood floor?


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## johneh (Mar 15, 2015)

Her is a good article on cupping of bamboo and hard wood floors in general .
http://www.wftaylor.com/index.php/1925/wft-1017/


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## GENECOP (Mar 15, 2015)

Typically once flooring cups it's not going back...unfortunately there is no quick fix....could be an install problem but unusual just in that area...Moisture, or excessive heat, drying, could be the cause......what is the floor installed over.


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## Husky (Mar 15, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> How wide are the planks? Nailed like a real hardwood floor?


The planks are 5" wide and they are nailed down just like hardwood.


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## Husky (Mar 15, 2015)

GENECOP said:


> Typically once flooring cups it's not going back...unfortunately there is no quick fix....could be an install problem but unusual just in that area...Moisture, or excessive heat, drying, could be the cause......what is the floor installed over.


 I would guess from drying. I just went and got a meter to measure RH in my family room and the air is 33%. The floor is laid on subfloor and 1/8 luan.


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## gzecc (Mar 15, 2015)

Husky said:


> The planks are 5" wide and they are nailed down just like hardwood.


 
5" wide is very wide for any board.. Not familiar with the structural integrity of Bamboo though.


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 15, 2015)

Engineered flooring shouldn't warp.  It's fancy plywood.  What's happening to the subfloor?

I think with solid wood flooring it depends on the condition of the flooring before the trauma.  I've got some t&g flooring in my cabin that buckled in the center from wood expansion after the lake flooded.  It was under 16" under water for a few days.  It finally flattened completely again this winter.  The flood was in 2011.   It had laid flat since 1952.  I'm not sure how much damage was caused by prior times that the water came over the floorboards, but it was flat in 2010.


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## gzecc (Mar 16, 2015)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Engineered flooring shouldn't warp.  It's fancy plywood.  What's happening to the subfloor?
> 
> I think with solid wood flooring it depends on the condition of the flooring before the trauma.  I've got some t&g flooring in my cabin that buckled in the center from wood expansion after the lake flooded.  It was under 16" under water for a few days.  It finally flattened completely again this winter.  The flood was in 2011.   It had laid flat since 1952.  I'm not sure how much damage was caused by prior times that the water came over the floorboards, but it was flat in 2010.


 
Is it an engineered flooring plank (plywood)? I missed that part. How thick is it?


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## Husky (Mar 16, 2015)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Engineered flooring shouldn't warp.  It's fancy plywood.  What's happening to the subfloor?
> 
> I think with solid wood flooring it depends on the condition of the flooring before the trauma.  I've got some t&g flooring in my cabin that buckled in the center from wood expansion after the lake flooded.  It was under 16" under water for a few days.  It finally flattened completely again this winter.  The flood was in 2011.   It had laid flat since 1952.  I'm not sure how much damage was caused by prior times that the water came over the floorboards, but it was flat in 2010.


Sub floor from basement looks fine.


gzecc said:


> Is it an engineered flooring plank (plywood)? I missed that part. How thick is it?


 It is engineered but made with bamboo grass. It's not like your engineered hard woods made out of plywood. Its 5/8" thick. I believe the process is they take the bamboo and laminate it together just like they make plywood and several layers.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 16, 2015)

It could be the laminate glue is not liking the constant exposure to heat.  

I have a new red oak hardwood floor that is in close proximity to our pellet stove.  When I install a wood stove in that location, i'm going to set the stove farther back and raise the hearth, to help keep heat off the floor.


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## Husky (Mar 16, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> It could be the laminate glue is not liking the constant exposure to heat.
> 
> I have a new red oak hardwood floor that is in close proximity to our pellet stove.  When I install a wood stove in that location, i'm going to set the stove farther back and raise the hearth, to help keep heat off the floor.


 I just went out and bought a whole room humidifier that will pump 9 gallons of water into the air over a 24 hours. Going to get RH up to see if it relaxes the boards a little. I know I probably won't see a big difference until summer when we have high humidity but maybe can stop other boards from doing the same.


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## Dune (Mar 17, 2015)

My guess is ice dams on your roof.


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## Husky (Mar 17, 2015)

Dune said:


> My guess is ice dams on your roof.


 Why do you say that? This is the first year I have had ice dams.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 17, 2015)

Husky said:


> I just went out and bought a whole room humidifier that will pump 9 gallons of water into the air over a 24 hours. Going to get RH up to see if it relaxes the boards a little. I know I probably won't see a big difference until summer when we have high humidity but maybe can stop other boards from doing the same.



Don't go crazy man!  You don't want to cause another issue while trying to fix another.


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## Husky (Mar 17, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Don't go crazy man!  You don't want to cause another issue while trying to fix another.


 Point well taken. I will just try to get RH back to 40%.


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## Dune (Mar 17, 2015)

Husky said:


> Why do you say that? This is the first year I have had ice dams.


I don't think your humidity is too low.
I think you have ice melting on your roof and the water is running inside your wall then seeping out under the floor.
You can't see it. You can see the evidence though.
It isn't because of your pellet stove.
If it was it would have happened last year.
The humidifier will make it worse. 
Take care of your gutters and your roof first.


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## Babaganoosh (Mar 17, 2015)

Dune said:


> I don't think your humidity is too low.
> I think you have ice melting on your roof and the water is running inside your wall then seeping out under the floor.
> You can't see it. You can see the evidence though.
> It isn't because of your pellet stove.
> ...



Dude, you get an award for pulling that answer out of almost nowhere. With no pics and very little information to go off of you may very well have hit the nail on the head. Obviously you have run into this before but damn that's almost freaky


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## Highbeam (Mar 17, 2015)

I've run but never owned a pellet stove and as I understand it they heat the air an blow it around. You will get extra hot in the room but there is no searing radiant heat like from in front of a real woodstove rocking at 800 with no air movement. Seems a pellet stove could not ruin the floor right next to it unless the whole room's floor was ruined.


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## Dune (Mar 17, 2015)

Babaganoosh said:


> Dude, you get an award for pulling that answer out of almost nowhere. With no pics and very little information to go off of you may very well have hit the nail on the head. Obviously you have run into this before but damn that's almost freaky


Well, thanks but it was fairly obvious.
Clearly the pellet stove didn't do it. The much more likely culprit is water. He doesn't see water yet ice dams have been melting all week.


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## Husky (Mar 17, 2015)

Dune said:


> I don't think your humidity is too low.
> I think you have ice melting on your roof and the water is running inside your wall then seeping out under the floor.
> You can't see it. You can see the evidence though.
> It isn't because of your pellet stove.
> ...


 I will investigate this when I get home tonight. The boards that are showing the cupping are not next to the outside wall but in about 10-12 boards from the wall. It is also would have to travel down the second floor wall and the first floor wall before hitting the down stairs wall. The subfloor from the basement view looks normal without and signs of moisture. I am going to get a moisture meter and check subfloor from basement to see if there is a variance of moisture readings. I will post some pictures tonight to show what is going on to help show my issue. Thanks for the input and possible cause.


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## Dune (Mar 17, 2015)

Husky said:


> I will investigate this when I get home tonight. The boards that are showing the cupping are not next to the outside wall but in about 10-12 boards from the wall. It is also would have to travel down the second floor wall and the first floor wall before hitting the down stairs wall. The subfloor from the basement view looks normal without and signs of moisture. I am going to get a moisture meter and check subfloor from basement to see if there is a variance of moisture readings. I will post some pictures tonight to show what is going on to help show my issue. Thanks for the input and possible cause.


Well it is unlikely then unless your house is balloon framed. 
Good luck.


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## begreen (Mar 17, 2015)

It sure does sound like moisture, not heat. Bamboo flooring is usually known for it's stability. Often the better quality bamboo flooring is approved for damper areas like basements. It needs to have all layers made of bamboo though. We installed it upstairs about 11 yrs ago. It still looks like new and is very flat. It sounds like the substrate may not be bamboo and it is failing.


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## Husky (Mar 17, 2015)

Okay, took a picture of floor to show what is happening. It is hard to see but if you look at boards closest, you can see that the boards are raised at the joints and lower in the middle. You can see board farthest away look flat.
I have looked for moisture every where but can not see where it could possibly be coming from. Wall to right, where you can see edge of mantel, is shared wall with attached garage. Wall to back, where light is coming from bay window, is about 10 boards away from cupping.


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## begreen (Mar 17, 2015)

Condensation on the underside of the flooring due to a large temp difference? 

Also, is that the stove to the left with no hearth pad?


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## Husky (Mar 17, 2015)

Here is one more showing the space.


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## Husky (Mar 17, 2015)

begreen said:


> It sure does sound like moisture, not heat. Bamboo flooring is usually known for it's stability. Often the better quality bamboo flooring is approved for damper areas like basements. It needs to have all layers made of bamboo though. We installed it upstairs about 11 yrs ago. It still looks like new and is very flat. It sounds like the substrate may not be bamboo and it is failing.


 Stove to the right. Pellet Insert on mantel to the right. That is humidifier on left.


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## begreen (Mar 17, 2015)

Hmm, the cupping appears to be in the vicinity of the humidifier. Have you moved it and looked under the carpet?


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## Husky (Mar 17, 2015)

begreen said:


> Hmm, the cupping appears to be in the vicinity of the humidifier. Have you moved it and looked under the carpet?


 Humidifier is new, I just bought it this Sunday. The boards are cupping under the carpet. The total boards that are cupping are 6 wide and extend about 6 feet.


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## begreen (Mar 17, 2015)

The only cupping I have seen with flooring has been due to moisture. That is confirmed by the article that johneh posted. Not sure the benefit of the humidifier here. Also, that does not look like any bamboo flooring I have ever seen. The grain pattern is wrong. It looks a bit more like a brazilian cherry.


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## begreen (Mar 17, 2015)

Is the basement under the floor unusually moist or were there any leaks there this winter? Is it heated? Did any of the plants get over watered to the point of spilling?


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## Warm_in_NH (Mar 17, 2015)

I'd bet moisture.  Damp basement of ice dams or leaking pipe in wall. Floors generally shrink from the heat but buckle and warp from moisture. 
Check the moisture readings of your sheet rock near the bottom of your walls in that area too.
I had my 5" wide hickory floor warp due to insanely high humidity in my stone floor basement. Never laid back down all the way, but it's natural hickory, it hides a lot.
Laminate floor I installed several years ago went bad the first summer it hit. Looked like an accordion, horrible. We did the install perfectly, taped vapor barrier, etc... Turned out his upper slider was leaking, there was no direct water contact to the floor but it was 87% humidity down there. Two weeks of aggressive dehumidifier work it looked like new. I was shocked it laid back down so well.


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## Dune (Mar 17, 2015)

Do you have pets? 
Also, do you have a maid, children, a wife who like to water things a lot? Once a dog gets away with peeing somewhere, he will keep going back to the exact same spot. 
Or a child may have spilled a drink. Or the maid over watered the plants. The plants are almost too much to be a coincidence. 
Could meltwater be coming down your flue? 

Again, it isn't a dryness problem. It is a moisture problem.


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## gzecc (Mar 18, 2015)

Dune said:


> Do you have pets?
> Also, do you have a maid, children, a wife who like to water things a lot? Once a dog gets away with peeing somewhere, he will keep going back to the exact same spot.
> Or a child may have spilled a drink. Or the maid over watered the plants. The plants are almost too much to be a coincidence.
> Could meltwater be coming down your flue?
> ...


 
My wife over waters the GD plants all the time. Thats my bet.


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## Husky (Mar 18, 2015)

I do have a very damp basement. Temps usually in basement are around 55 during the winter. I usually run 2 dehumidifiers in basement year around but I started this year running one on a timer that runs 12 hours and then off 12 hours. I was thinking that the winter months were dryer so I could cut back on usage to save on electric. This may have been a bad idea. Check RH in basement and it was 58%. With that RH and cold basement that could be my problem. The room above temp is usually 75 or more when we are home.


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## Warm_in_NH (Mar 18, 2015)

58% isn't too bad, certainly not enough to do that. Maybe a pic of the hearth? 
I'm guessing it's an exterior wall to the right in the picture? Is it an exterior chimney? Chimney with a box around it, maybe a cricket on the back side, ice dam melted?
You've got moisture coming from somewhere. Just take you MM and start checking everything. Establish you baseline by taking a few readings in an unaffected area of the wall and floor. Then start checking all over the place, when you get an elevated reading somewhere, try to follow it, like an invisible scent trail. Doesn't always work, but I've had success doing this in the past when there was no visible signs of a leak.


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## brian89gp (Mar 18, 2015)

Is it more cupped further away from the hearth then right up next to it?  Where is the blown air from the stove directed at?


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## Husky (Mar 18, 2015)

Warm_in_NH said:


> 58% isn't too bad, certainly not enough to do that. Maybe a pic of the hearth?
> I'm guessing it's an exterior wall to the right in the picture? Is it an exterior chimney? Chimney with a box around it, maybe a cricket on the back side, ice dam melted?
> You've got moisture coming from somewhere. Just take you MM and start checking everything. Establish you baseline by taking a few readings in an unaffected area of the wall and floor. Then start checking all over the place, when you get an elevated reading somewhere, try to follow it, like an invisible scent trail. Doesn't always work, but I've had success doing this in the past when there was no visible signs of a leak.


 Here is picture of Hearth. Air blows straight out and up. Wall behind stove is interior wall of garage. Chimney is interior through garage and up stairs bedroom. Cupping starts at wall on left and get worse as you get out past hearth and goes out about 6 feet on 6 boards. I  don't have a moisture meter to check anything but will get one this weekend.


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## gzecc (Mar 18, 2015)

Husky said:


> Here is picture of Hearth. Air blows straight out and up. Wall behind stove is interior wall of garage. Chimney is interior through garage and up stairs bedroom. Cupping starts at wall on left and get worse as you get out past hearth and goes out about 6 feet on 6 boards. I  don't have a moisture meter to check anything but will get one this weekend.
> 
> View attachment 156004


 Check the wall on the left (as looking at the insert) for faint water staining running down the wall. Just saw it today in a house.


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## Warm_in_NH (Mar 18, 2015)

Wish I was there. As much of a pain in the ass as they are, I enjoy tracking down a water leak, and I have an good portfolio. 

Lot of good advice given here, I'd listen to it all, use the new moisture meter, and figure out what is going on. 

I would however,  kill the humidifier for now. It's a new variable that you don't need to introduce yet.

Keep us posted.


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## semipro (Mar 20, 2015)

The chimney or interface between it and the house may also be a conduit for water even if the flue is capped.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 20, 2015)

Husky said:


> Here is picture of Hearth. Air blows straight out and up. Wall behind stove is interior wall of garage. Chimney is interior through garage and up stairs bedroom. Cupping starts at wall on left and get worse as you get out past hearth and goes out about 6 feet on 6 boards. I  don't have a moisture meter to check anything but will get one this weekend.
> 
> View attachment 156004



$10  http://www.amazon.com/AcuRite-00613...qid=1426865335&sr=8-1&keywords=humidity+gauge


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## johneh (Mar 20, 2015)

I have spent the last 25 years of my life as a wood worker . I have done every thing from Antique restoration
furniture design , custom furniture to milling and laying hard wood floors. The one and only thing that will
cause a hard wood floor to cup is moisture. It takes something as simple as a spilled bucket of water
when the floor was washed . It also may take weeks before the floor cups. If the moisture is removed
at a timely rate the floor should lay flat again. Do you use an air conditioner ? If so it should remove the
excess moisture this summer . But you must find where the moisture is coming from . the moisture is
between the hard wood and the sub floor. I suspect the Bay window is leaking.
Get rid of the humidifier as you are adding to your problem


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## Husky (Mar 20, 2015)

johneh said:


> I have spent the last 25 years of my life as a wood worker . I have done every thing from Antique restoration
> furniture design , custom furniture to milling and laying hard wood floors. The one and only thing that will
> cause a hard wood floor to cup is moisture. It takes something as simple as a spilled bucket of water
> when the floor was washed . It also may take weeks before the floor cups. If the moisture is removed
> ...


 Thanks for input. I have come to the conclusion that it has to be moisture. I didn't see the floor start to cup until the thaw in the past 2 weeks. I have experienced quite a bit of ice damming this year for the first time since living here for the past 13 years. I put a second floor addition on my house in 2005 over the garage. At that time the new roof line of the garage addition is just below the existing roof. The snow this year accumulated very heavily on my roof covering the new roof up over the existing roof. I am guessing that I may have had some ice damming on my roof where the new roof meets the house, which is the wall that the fireplace is located. I will have to get up there this spring when things warm up and check the flashing between the house and new roof line. I also know that the flashing on the chimney was not imbedded into the chimney but just glued on with roofing cement. This has caused a few water leaks in my garage at base of chimney a few times over the years. I don't know why this didn't come to my thought process in the very beginning. I guess I just thought my new pellet stove was problem and it had to be dryness. It still baffles me that I can not find any signs of water stains any where. I will keep looking and will be moisture meter reading this weekend. Thanks again to everyone who has responded to me. It really helps hearing all the possible things that it could be from the community. This is why I love this web sight.


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## Warm_in_NH (Mar 20, 2015)

Husky said:


> Thanks for input. I have come to the conclusion that it has to be moisture. I didn't see the floor start to cup until the thaw in the past 2 weeks. I have experienced quite a bit of ice damming this year for the first time since living here for the past 13 years. I put a second floor addition on my house in 2005 over the garage. At that time the new roof line of the garage addition is just below the existing roof. The snow this year accumulated very heavily on my roof covering the new roof up over the existing roof. I am guessing that I may have had some ice damming on my roof where the new roof meets the house, which is the wall that the fireplace is located. I will have to get up there this spring when things warm up and check the flashing between the house and new roof line. I also know that the flashing on the chimney was not imbedded into the chimney but just glued on with roofing cement. This has caused a few water leaks in my garage at base of chimney a few times over the years. I don't know why this didn't come to my thought process in the very beginning. I guess I just thought my new pellet stove was problem and it had to be dryness. It still baffles me that I can not find any signs of water stains any where. I will keep looking and will be moisture meter reading this weekend. Thanks again to everyone who has responded to me. It really helps hearing all the possible things that it could be from the community. This is why I love this web sight.




I got my MM at Lowes, think it was like $20.  That stove is helping dry things more than anything else, it's your friend right now, keep it cranking.

A lot of homes I've see are built with a vapor barrier on the inside of the studs (plastic staple up over unfaced insulation), combine that with a house wrap on the exterior, quite often a water leak from the roof won't show up until one or two stories below. Once it gets into the wall cavity, it's trapped in and travels down hill.  I know when I see the finish nails on the baseboard trim rusting out that something isn't going to be quite right when we open up the wall.  
We did a repair job where an entire 24' long wall was completely rotted out end to end, not a water stain to be seen, they only noticed because the wall board was bowing out and touching the back of their heater that was bolted to the wall with what was once a 2" gap. The wall compressed down so much the sheet rock bowed out cause it had no where to go.


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## Husky (May 2, 2015)

Update on my floor. After many weeks of trying to find where the water came in I never found the culprit. My floor has completely laid back down flat. I have come to the conclusion that it had to be ice damming as the problem did not arise until the big thaw we had in the spring, after the long cold snap. This summer, I am going to reflash my chimney and the side of the house where roof meets the siding on that wall. Hopefully this will take care of the problem for future winters. I want to thank all that gave advise and suggestions while I was trying to figure this out.


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## EatenByLimestone (May 2, 2015)

Glad it repaired itself!    Let us know what you find when doing the roof work.


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## billb3 (May 2, 2015)

Husky said:


> Update on my floor. After many weeks of trying to find where the water came in I never found the culprit. My floor has completely laid back down flat. I have come to the conclusion that it had to be ice damming as the problem did not arise until the big thaw we had in the spring, after the long cold snap. This summer, I am going to reflash my chimney and the side of the house where roof meets the siding on that wall. Hopefully this will take care of the problem for future winters. I want to thank all that gave advise and suggestions while I was trying to figure this out.




Could the spot  where the boards cupped be a low spot in the floor which acted like a puddle ?



When I re-shingled my roof 2 Summers ago the water problem in the basement dried up.
I'd  have liked to have used the money spent on  dry wells, grading and running a dehumidifier  for something, anything else.

Hope your floor behaves.


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