# Hopper Fire last night



## Eyball (Jan 1, 2015)

last night we came home to a smoke filled house and ends up the pellets in the hopper had ignited.  We have a Breckwell P4000 Vermonter that I purchased used last winter and installed in March.  We have run about a ton without any issues.  I think last night was the coldest temps we have run it in though.  My setup is in the finished basement with outside air connected.  I have 3" pipe coming off the stove starting with a T then up 4 feet to a 90 degree elbow and then through a wall thimble about 18" into a masonry chimney where I have an increaser T going to 4" and the 18' of pellet vent pipe up and out the top of the masonry chimney.  The top being few feet of the masonry chimney insulted and sealed off.  When I ran a wood stove I often had negative draft issues but that was just 6" pipe off the stove and into the wall thimble the dumped into the clay lined chimney.

The hopper fire was easily extinguished with a fire extinguisher and house aired out.  If we were home it probably would have been much better.  I'm thinking it was smoldering for a while.  The stove has no seal for the hopper just a cheap lid.  I'm thinking it was so cold and calm last night tha cold air was dropping down the pipe and the stove was smothering itself which caused it to start venting out the hopper.  The combustion fan still comes on and besides creosote buildup in the hopper & fire box there is no other damage.  The fire was smothering itself out but had enough air from the oak & non sealing hopper lid to allow the pellets to smoldering until I hit it with the extinguisher.

So I guess at this point I am looking for some advice.  I hate to buy a new stove but maybe that's the best option....

Thanks & Happy New Year!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 1, 2015)

That installation calls for 4" vent and venting should not change partway through the vent run and it should be that way all the way to the cap.

Could you explain exactly what you did after you got the stove and before you fired it for the first time.


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## John Fortier (Jan 1, 2015)

Thank God all are ok and your home is still intact.


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## MuchoBueno (Jan 1, 2015)

Yes very scarry. Good you were able to get it under control.


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## Eyball (Jan 1, 2015)

The stove was purchased by a friend of mine in 2008 & never installed.  It had never been burned when I got it.  I just installed it where my wood stove was but I ran the pellet vent from the stove, through the 6" wall thimble & up the chimney.  It's pellet vent all the way.  I know the manual called for 4" all the way but I had 3" pipe that came with the stove I didn't want to waste.  Do you think this could be to blame?  I certainly don't want to go through last night ever again.  I can easily buy some 4" pipe.  Would I use the increaser T off the back of the stove?  It's only a 3" output on the stove.

Thanks for the help!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 1, 2015)

A lot more will need to be known about your installation however most vent and chimney systems that have a choke point in them have problems with establishing proper air flow even without having other things in the mix.

Was this stove operating on a t-stat in any fashion and if so in which mode was it operating?

Was the stove installation gone over by an inspector?

Was there any air handling device that could automatically cycle on?

Did you ever have the pressure situation in your basement checked?   Basements are subject to chimney effect (this increases each floor down you go) regardless of if there is a chimney in the house.


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## boo boo (Jan 1, 2015)

Glad you, your family and your home is okay. Could have been a very bad start to the new year. I suggest you don't run that stove until you find root cause and fix it. But I am sure you know this.


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## Polar Bear (Jan 1, 2015)

Is that a bottom feed?


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## SKOAL MAN (Jan 1, 2015)

I thought hopper fires were an urban legend, but this is the second this month!  Glad to hear that you're alright!  I thought about doing through the wall vent when I installed my stove but I had a tall chimney and the added benefit of the natural draft sold me. Depending on how tall your chimney is its a lot harder to push smoke up a 3" than 4".


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## Eyball (Jan 1, 2015)

The stove was not on a t-stat it has 4 heat settings.  It was on 2 then I topped off the hopper & set it to 3 before we went out.  The only other thing in my basement that would have cycled on is my oil burner & it's forced hot water on a separate chimney.  When I installed my wood stove it was inspected but not when I switched over to the pellet stove.  Mainly because the builder inspector did nothing when he signed off on my wood stove.  I know I should have.  The basement has not been tested but I can tell you with the stove disconnected cool air is coming out of the chimney pipe.  I don't plan to re-fire thus thing without figuring out the problem & having it inspected.  Maybe an entire new stove.


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## Eyball (Jan 1, 2015)

Oh, it's a top feeding gravity drop auger.  Thanks


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 1, 2015)

If you get a chance would you please take some pictures of the chimney on the outside?

I want to get some feel for relative heights of the chimney and roof ridges.

Just so you understand things that DHW system can create a negative pressure situation in your entire basement depending on how well things are sealed between the stove room and the boiler room.

Were there pellets backed up into the drop chute and/or in the burn pot?


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## Eyball (Jan 1, 2015)

The stove & boiler are in separate areas of the basement but by no means well sealed off.  The basement itself is pretty air tight.  I used to have to open a window many times starting my woodstove to prevent smoking out the basement.  The burn pot was basically empty but the auger was full of partially burnt pellets when I open it up & cleaned it today.  The chute was clear but lots of creosote buildup right below and on burn pot.  I will post a picture of the chimney tomorrow.  Oh, it also runs up through my garage so the chimney is all in un-heated space.

Just notice your in Standish.  I have been going to Frye Island for 30 years!  Thanks again for assistance!


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## Polar Bear (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm confused how it started.... I assumed the drop chute would've been backed up?


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## Eyball (Jan 1, 2015)

My best guess is the chimney down draft due to extreme cold last night was over powering the combustion blower & due to crappy design on my hopper the fire started venting up the chute & ignited the pellets in the hopper auger & worked down to the bottom of the hopper.  I'm actually surprised the stove components are still ok.  I believe the auger had shut off but the damage was done at that point & luckily the hopper just smoldered & did not really have a good air source.  I was thinking the combustion fan crapped out but it still works...  I'm no expert by any means though, that's why I'm checking here for help.  Thanks


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## rona (Jan 2, 2015)

Eyball said:


> My best guess is the chimney down draft due to extreme cold last night was over powering the combustion blower & due to crappy design on my hopper the fire started venting up the chute & ignited the pellets in the hopper auger & worked down to the bottom of the hopper.  I'm actually surprised the stove components are still ok.  I believe the auger had shut off but the damage was done at that point & luckily the hopper just smoldered & did not really have a good air source.  I was thinking the combustion fan crapped out but it still works...  I'm no expert by any means though, that's why I'm checking here for help.  Thanks


Do you have fresh air hooked up to this unit? Earlier in the description you mentioned you needed to open a window for more air when you started a wood stove fire. I am thinking a fresh air intake may be the corrective procedure.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 2, 2015)

If you have a lot of creosote built up in the auger system then burn back, or the negative draft situation at least ,doesn't sound like a single event to me. Just this time it made it to the hopper.

FWIW, I ran venting through a masonry chimney as well on my Harman which has a 3" outlet . I adapted to 4" right at the stove and ran 4" all the way through. I have a strong positive draft up the venting.  And additionally if your chimney top is below the peak, in which case you need clearances to the pitch of the roof and or clear the peak. If not adhered to you can get bad downdrafts, temporary or constant according to wind direction over the peak.  It should all be in your manual.


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## Phoenix Hatchling (Jan 2, 2015)

OP stated he had an OAK installed.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 2, 2015)

Phoenix Hatchling said:


> OP stated he had an OAK installed.


Hmmm, I missed that. Well one down. I'll edit that out, thanks.


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## Phoenix Hatchling (Jan 2, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> If you have a lot of creosote built up in the auger system then burn back, or the negative draft situation at least ,doesn't sound like a single event to me. Just this time it made it to the hopper.
> 
> FWIW, I ran venting through a masonry chimney as well on my Harman which has a 3" outlet . I adapted to 4" right at the stove and ran 4" all the way through. I have a strong positive draft up the venting.  And additionally, I think one place where Smokey is headed is that your chimney top is below the peak, in which case you need clearances to the pitch of the roof and or clear the peak. If not adhered to you can get bad downdrafts, temporary or constant according to wind direction over the peak.  It should all be in your manual.



So our Harmans with the steel drop door would prevent this? Seems I read of a Harman having an issue as well one time, and that the design of the hopper lid/gasket snuffed it out by sealing itself off. I may be mistaken on the brand that was but I thought that was Harman and thinking, "cool, I guess I'm covered".


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## alternativeheat (Jan 2, 2015)

Phoenix Hatchling said:


> So our Harmans with the steel drop door would prevent this? Seems I read of a Harman having an issue as well one time, and that the design of the hopper lid/gasket snuffed it out by sealing itself off. I may be mistaken on the brand that was but I thought that was Harman and thinking, "cool, I guess I'm covered".


It's a good theory though they can stick. It's advisable to make sure that the drop gate is working free. There have been accounts where after some years use they get sticky. A couple of members here have a plan where they pull the auger system for cleaning on a 4 year schedule for instance. But you can check the gate anytime in between. I've flipped the gate on my P61 during a fines box clean so I know it's free. I found it a bit concerning that on shutdown pellets burn back a ways into the auger tube but others here claim the same thing with their Harmans.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

Once again it needs repeating any pellet stove can suffer from burn back.

Smokey is at the moment not headed anywhere I'm trying to gather as much information as possible.

It normally takes several things to get from running fine to the point of having a situation such as that which is posted here.

The issue that alternativeheat is talking about is known as the gummy stove syndrome.  A relative vacuum in the sealed hopper (caused by air and  pellet depletion) draws some exhaust into the hopper where it condenses causing creosote build up a bad thing anytime.  There is a fix for this. 

The same thing can happen if the room a stove is in a can place the hopper under a relative vacuum and the hopper is not sealed.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

Polar Bear said:


> I'm confused how it started.... I assumed the drop chute would've been backed up?



It is possible for the hot exhaust gases to start a fire or roast things anywhere they can get to within a certain distance from the fire..

One of the normal (and likely the most common one) burn back situations is exactly as you describe but it isn't the only possible one.

The pileup case is usually signaling it is about to happen well before it does.

I also want Eyball to know that it is nice to have somebody that has had this situation occur to actually stick around and provide additional information.


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

I do have outdoor air hooked up. I figured in the basement I really needed it.  If I open the stove door without the stove running I can feel the cold air coming in through the stove.  I have been doing a good job of cleaning this stove & there has been less than a ton burned since install.  The creosote was only notice after the hopper fire, I think it's all from that event.  I do want to point out the glass had been getting dirty pretty quick but the flame seamed good.  I will take some pictures later today and post.


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)




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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)




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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

The masonry chimney runs down the outside of the house through the garage so it's cold all the time.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

What line of venting did that cap come from?


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

It's a duravent cap just like this the twist on to the 4" pipe.  I just check all the pipe & it has some ash but it's nothing that would restrict flow.  There was also a lot of ash on this cap.  The night it happened it was clear with no wind.


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## hyfire (Jan 2, 2015)

I think you have a neg air problem, you need to get a magnehelic gauge and make sure its within spec of the stove manufacturer. Your comment got me thinking..

"When I ran a wood stove I often had negative draft issues but that was just 6" pipe off the stove and into the wall thimble the dumped into the clay lined chimney."


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2015)

You would think the combustion fan and the warm air from the igniting pellets would eventually overcome the slug of cold air in the flue.


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

Well that's how it worked with the wood stove. After you got it going the exhaust heat would get a good draft going. I'm thinking the pellet stove does not output enough heat and/or the combustion fan is failing...


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## hyfire (Jan 2, 2015)

Is there anything in the house running that would cause a neg air pressure?


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## chken (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm with those that suspect negative air pressure in the house. You shouldn't have cold air coming in when you are cleaning the stove.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

The OP already mentioned that there is anther burning device in a separate chimney that automatically can cycle and that this end of the basement isn't all that well sealed form the other.

I still have some questions that deal with the gaskets on the pellet stove, if there has ever been any visible warp-age along the door or stove frame due to heat, and if there are any signs of air leakage along the feed system (shows up as v shaped areas pointing to the leak), then there is the ever popular area at the top of the auger flight where there is an end cap that the flight cover sits upon..


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2015)

In my place, on the first floor or the basement, if the flue gets totally cold there is a downdraft.  I might get a bit of a whiff from the basement pellet boiler, but so far so good.  I also have to crack a window on the first floor and light a little newspaper for the wood insert if things get totally cold.  Does your stove get totally cold?  Did it work okay other times from a cold start (and downdraft-can you feel the draft with your hand?)?

Blaming it on the downdraft may be premature, no?

On a side note, my boiler has a little water reservoir that dumps water in the auger tube if things get hot in there.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2015)

Did the draft issue when you had your wood insert go away once it got warmed up a little, or was it a constant thing where you always had to crack open a window?  I've never experienced it that bad-just a matter of initially reversing the draft.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> In my place, on the first floor or the basement, if the flue gets totally cold there is a downdraft.  I might get a bit of a whiff from the basement pellet boiler, but so far so good.  I also have to crack a window on the first floor and light a little newspaper for the wood insert if things get totally cold.  Does your stove get totally cold?  Did it work okay other times from a cold start (and downdraft-can you feel the draft with your hand?)?
> 
> Blaming it on the downdraft may be premature, no?
> 
> On a side note, my boiler has a little water reservoir that dumps water in the auger tube if things get hot in there.



The OP already had the stove running and had turned it up prior to leaving and the stove wasn't under the control of a t-stat.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2015)

So what changed, if it was drafting well when he left?  It was a cold day, maybe the oil burner came on?  Have they ever both been firing before?


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

The wood stove before worked fine after it was going you could shut the window and I never had a problem even when the fire was burning out.  The oil boiler also heats our hot water so it's always on and cycles when it gets low enough.  We have never had a problem before but this was the coldest night since the pellet stove has been run. Right now I have the stove pipe capped & when you remove the cap you get cold air coming into the basement.  Its upper 30s out today.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

Well I'm just dotting i s and crossing t s.

I want to make sure that the OP can get things back in operation.

Things that separate pressure differences are seals of one variety or another (like gaskets).

Things that lead to pressure differences are differences in altitude between intake and termination and other air handling devices.

Things that interfere with air flow are ash and reductions in the vent system as you get closer to the stove.

As you burn the ash load goes up in the venting this occurs quicker in horizontal runs and elbows adding to the restriction.

What you might not think is a lot of ash can in the right places be a major issue.


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

I do plan to replace the 3" pipe with 4" so it's 4" right from the increaser T on the back of the stove. I also noticed where the shoot meets the back of the fire box the silicone sealant was done poorly.  I added some high temp sealant to fix that.


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## LordmetalZ28 (Jan 2, 2015)

Was it windy. Thats the only time ive ever seen a chimney down draft in my 10 years in hvac and usually have a draft regulator on there.ive seen wind blow out an oil burner while running with no draft regulator.Wind or another appliance Maybe attic fan can cause this


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

No there was no wind just cold about 7 degrees.  That's the weird part.  Only thing that could of been running was oil burner but that always kicks on every so often & never had an issue.  Right now I am getting a good down draft out of the pipe but the clothes dryer is running &  boiler in basement plus bathroom fan upstairs. We have a ranch with partially finished basement.


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## LordmetalZ28 (Jan 2, 2015)

Nevermind you did mention it was calm


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## LordmetalZ28 (Jan 2, 2015)

How many feet in total is your vent run. And have you done the conversion propertys on this run.


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## LordmetalZ28 (Jan 2, 2015)

For instance I have 13ft of vertical run and the manufactures table converts it to 7.5 feet with the tee and 16inch horizontal. If your manufactures recommended 4inch you should think about trying that. You may just have to much back pressure with the denser air and its having a hard time moving it


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## hyfire (Jan 2, 2015)

Were you running the clothes dryer and exhaust fan the day of the fire?


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## Polar Bear (Jan 2, 2015)

I am following this thread carefully... I don't like that the cause is unknown


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

LordmetalZ28 said:


> How many feet in total is your vent run. And have you done the conversion propertys on this run.




He has an equivalent vent length of 15 in just the 90 degree bends alone and 9 in the vertical portion he is definately in 4" vent territory and creeping up on the overall limit.

If he has access to the flue at pellet stove exhaust vent level he would be better off entering the flue that way and 90 degrees and then up.  That might even put him in 3" territory.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

Polar Bear said:


> I am following this thread carefully... I don't like that the cause is unknown



We have some of the ingredients.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

Continuing on with the questions.

Is any fake fire brick in good condition and in place?

Are all ash trap covers installed?


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## hossthehermit (Jan 2, 2015)

Eyball said:


> The stove was not on a t-stat it has 4 heat settings.  It was on 2 then I topped off the hopper & set it to 3 before we went out.   .



Are you a smoker? The first couple years that I burned pellets, I still smoked and I know a couple times a spark or hot ash would drop off a cigarette while I was filling the hopper ........


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## LordmetalZ28 (Jan 2, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> He has an equivalent vent length of 15 in just the 90 degree bends alone and 9 in the vertical portion he is definately in 4" vent territory and creeping up on the overall limit.
> 
> If he has access to the flue at pellet stove exhaust vent level he would be better off entering the flue that way and 90 degrees and then up.  That might even put him in 3" territory.


Then theres the problem. Your In def in the 4in territory and you knew that because of what manufacturer recommended.  These recommendations are not there for fun and you could have hurt somebody. This is why home insurance is expensive.  Sorry but it needed to be said. Im glad nobody got hurt or you didnt lose your home. I hope you make wiser decisions next time.


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## LordmetalZ28 (Jan 2, 2015)

hossthehermit said:


> Are you a smoker? The first couple years that I burned pellets, I still smoked and I know a couple times a spark or hot ash would drop off a cigarette while I was filling the hopper ........


Wow


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

I know I should have run 4" the entire length & that's what I plan to do now.  It was hooked up with a 3" T off the stove then about 45" vertical 90 elbow then 24" horizontal into increaser T then 18 feet vertical out top of masonry chimney.  The 18' is 4" pipe.  I can't enter the chimney anywhere else as its behind the poured concrete foundation & does not run to ground level anyway.  It was installed to spec besides using some 3" pipe which I know was stupid on my part.  

We were not home and nothing else was running in the house besides when the oil burner kicks on.  What stumps me is a have burned about a ton with no problems.

All plates were in place in the stove.


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh, no smokers.  This fire defenitly crept back from the fire box and from the looks of the burn box with lots of creosote it was burning with not much air.  Almost like the pipe was plugged but it's not.


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

If it matters, I was burning some high BTU pellets that night.  PWI's then I topped off with Okanagen Douglas Fir before we went out.


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## LordmetalZ28 (Jan 2, 2015)

If you cant go thru your existing chimney you need to find another route weather the stove has to be moved to go thru the wall or thru the roof with another chimney. Its very important to follow the rules codes and specs to a tee.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 2, 2015)

Eyball said:


> Oh, no smokers.  This fire defenitly crept back from the fire box and from the looks of the burn box with lots of creosote it was burning with not much air.  Almost like the pipe was plugged but it's not.


Well you are running in a restricted mode to begin with because the EVL isn't satisfied. You may have had a little or a fair amount of ash in the venting  ( a lot of folks swish out their vents at the one ton mark) , not plugged but further restricting the flow. You have known negative draft issues. And you found a cover on the chute that may not have been sealed well. The stove doesn't have a hopper cover seal. It was the coldest out yet this year. And who knows what else that has not been determined yet. But just with this much, well you had a hopper fire so we don't need proof that something is pretty wrong here..

I'd like to know the cause of a negative draft with no other negative pull components on in the house. Natural draft. Why is the natural draft negative with an 18 ft rise ? My 26 ft of 4" will pull ash as I clean the pathway by the combustion blower. I can feel air rushing by my hand up the venting.. You really have air pushing in with nothing on in the house ? Have you checked that it's really negative ?  Simple smoke test will do it or gas grill lighter. My venting almost sucks the flame out on a gas grill lighter. But I got to say sometimes with my hand it feels the other way around. It isn't though, feel is not a good test.


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

I have to agree that all those items together probably led to this fire.  Might be time for a stove with a locking hopper that deals tight.  After I fix my venting to 4" all the way.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

The reason that his flue is acting the way it is, is because it is likely that there are several other suckers in the house that are not helping his basement installation at all.

We likely have not yet found them all, the other heating system is one, his exhaust fans are others, recessed lighting fixtures fall under this category.  Even the area around the PL vent in the chimney flue that he is running the stove through can get into the act.

I can even see the heating system lines between floors and a ton of ceiling and upper floor penetrations causing this situation.

Now I can cause my stove to smoke through its hopper, it is simple enough to cause.

Once again I want to help fix the situation


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## hyfire (Jan 2, 2015)

You put a ton through the stove and never cleaned the 3" flue?  Or am incorrect?


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## alternativeheat (Jan 2, 2015)

Eyball said:


> If it matters, I was burning some high BTU pellets that night.  PWI's then I topped off with Okanagen Douglas Fir before we went out.


I doubt that matters, they are really clean burning pellets.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

Eyball you need to track down what amounts to chimney ways in your basement as well as taking care of the vent situation.

This is an envelope sealing operation and the damnedest things need to be sealed.  You can use a smoke pencil to find some of them or any other method to locate drafts.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

Incidentally this isn't the first case of this situation on here this season nor will it be the last.



hyfire said:


> You put a ton through the stove and never cleaned the 3" flue?  Or am incorrect?



With some pellets this wouldn't in and of itself be an issue.  A good DF pellet has a fifth of the ash of pellets that just meet the PFI premium standard.


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

I should mention that my basement stairs to the room the stove is in is completely open into my kitchen above.   Previous owners made the upstairs wall around the kitchen railing height to open up the kitchen.  I can post a picture if it helps.   I will test the draft with everything off tomorrow.


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## Phoenix Hatchling (Jan 2, 2015)

Is your stove hooked up to a UPS for the event of a power outage? Perhaps there was a blackout which you were unaware of and caused the natural draft to be insufficient for the fire to burn out safely? I know with my set up it will allow for a safe shutdown and pulse the combustion blower to evacuate the smoke and burn the burnpot out. I always keep mine hooked up to an APC UPS.


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

It's not on backup, but the power did not go out as no clocks were flashing.  I had a power failure before and the stove just went out.  No smoke in the house.  One of reason I installed the oak was to give the stove the air it needed,  or so I thought.


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## F4jock (Jan 2, 2015)

Eyball said:


> It's not on backup, but the power did not go out as no clocks were flashing.  I had a power failure before and the stove just went out.  No smoke in the house.  One of reason I installed the oak was to give the stove the air it needed,  or so I thought.


OAK is only as good as its draft.


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## Hdhogger (Jan 2, 2015)

You have to be very careful and attentive if you don,t have an OAK, which i don't. If your stove is running and the clothes dryer is also running you are pulling a substantial amount of air out of your home. Now say the range hood gets turned on and someone turns on a bathroom fan, your house is in negative pressure and things get turned around. 
I tried to light my wood stove when other things were exhausting and it was a futile attempt. Had to shut the intake vents and wait for the range hood and dryer to be shut down. My house was built in 1979 so it's not the tightest but negative air still effects the burn. Newer homes are more sensitive as they are built tighter.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

Eyball, has a list of things to do.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 2, 2015)

LordmetalZ28 said:


> Wow



Hoss had a legitimate question.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2015)

If the burn pot holes got clogged, could the pellets keep on coming and start a smouldering mess?


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## Hdhogger (Jan 2, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Eyball, has a list of things to do.


A very long  list. Maybe OAK isn't enough. I've known of homes that have needed combustion air units installed to keep a balanced pressure in them.


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## Lake Girl (Jan 2, 2015)

Eyball said:


> It's not on backup, but the power did not go out as no clocks were flashing.  I had a power failure before and the stove just went out.  No smoke in the house.  One of reason I installed the oak was to give the stove the air it needed,  or so I thought.



What is the location of the OAK? Up chimney or other?  If other, is it free of snow?  Recall another poster had that issue...

Edit:  Diameter and length of OAK run - EVL rules apply there too.


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## Eyball (Jan 2, 2015)

Oak goes about 2 feet to the left of stove through the wall, up to ceiling joist level and then over a couple feet out through the sill. Seams to have good airflow.  Maybe too good combined with negative pressure down exhaust?


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## LordmetalZ28 (Jan 2, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Hoss had a legitimate question.[/quote
> 
> 
> SmokeyTheBear said:
> ...


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## hyfire (Jan 2, 2015)

Eyball said:


> Oak goes about 2 feet to the left of stove through the wall, up to ceiling joist level and then over a couple feet out through the sill. Seams to have good airflow.  Maybe too good combined with negative pressure down exhaust?



I cant see the oak hurting only if it was same height or very close in height as the chimney .


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 3, 2015)

Yes it is a long one but not all that costly, well with the exception of going all 4" along with having someone who knows that stove go over it with a fine toothed comb and show the OP where all of the ash hiding places are.

I don't like these things happening and folks here are at a disadvantage when trying to help remotely.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 3, 2015)

LordmetalZ28 said:


> SmokeyTheBear said: ↑
> 
> Hoss had a legitimate question.
> 
> ...



Yeah,  but us Mainers can take the lumps that are legitimately tossed our way.


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 3, 2015)

air restriction in the exhaust pathway, combined with an unsealed hopper in a negative pressure situation (basement is ALWAYS below the zero pressure plane in a house)
for this to happen the fuel must stack up into the drop chute otherwise there isn't a "fuse" to the hopper. once in the "drop chute" the smoldering fire must be resupplied with air otherwise it cannot progress all the way back to the bin so for that to happen a less restrictive air pathway to the hopper than out the flue is generally necessary to burn it back.

trust me guys, I know burnbacks, heck I literally create them in my shop to study them. a single issue generally does not create one, it takes more than one issue that "work together" to cause this.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 3, 2015)

stoveguy2esw said:


> air restriction in the exhaust pathway, combined with an unsealed hopper in a negative pressure situation (basement is ALWAYS below the zero pressure plane in a house)
> for this to happen the fuel must stack up into the drop chute otherwise there isn't a "fuse" to the hopper. once in the "drop chute" the smoldering fire must be resupplied with air otherwise it cannot progress all the way back to the bin so for that to happen a less restrictive air pathway to the hopper than out the flue is generally necessary to burn it back.
> 
> trust me guys, I know burnbacks, heck I literally create them in my shop to study them. a single issue generally does not create one, it takes more than one issue that "work together" to cause this.



Hey where the heck have you been Mike?


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 3, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Hey where the heck have you been Mike?




was floating around both forums mostly catching stuff from my products, I skimmed this one and figured i'd go ahead and add a little direction to the diagnosis. haven't really pored over it yet. you guys have covered a lot of ground so far from what I see.

just a note on the OAK, remember the restriction I mentioned is "after" the fire, an OAK supplies "before" the fire so an OAK typically helps indirectly with preventing a lot of these situations by helping the stove burn cleaner before its gets outta hand, but its not a "do all end all" prevention for it happening


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 3, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Hey where the heck have you been Mike?




might want to see if we can get Owen in on this, he is far superior to me on the breckwell product lines, I can generalize but its his product so he would know more of the specifics for the model.

not bashing the product mind you, its my opinion that in the right set of circumstances a burn back can occur in literally any pellet stove, BUT its exceedingly rare and as I said above it takes more than one issue to make it happen.


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## Eyball (Jan 3, 2015)

I didn't see any pellets in the chute but the top back part of burn pot right below the chute was coated with goopy creosote so maybe pellets did back up & just burned completely?  When I removed the plate over the auger it was full of partially burned pellets all the way up.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 3, 2015)

The OP understands the multiple event side of this and I would hope that folks looking for a single cause aren't getting disappointed by all of the questions and that nobody has pointed a finger at a single thing.  Some folks seem to have a problem that way so for the record I'll tell you what the cause was ... *Improper Air Flow* ...


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 3, 2015)

stoveguy2esw said:


> might want to see if we can get Owen in on this, he is far superior to me on the breckwell product lines, I can generalize but its his product so he would know more of the specifics for the model.
> 
> not bashing the product mind you, its my opinion that in the right set of circumstances a burn back can occur in literally any pellet stove, BUT its exceedingly rare and as I said above it takes more than one issue to make it happen.



Yeah maybe he can lend a hand in chasing things down a bit more.  I just ask a pile of questions looking for overlooked items that I know cause air flow issues.  It might also be a good idea to get Eric in on it as well.

ETA: Invitations extended.


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## Polar Bear (Jan 3, 2015)

Can one ton really clog the venting system that bad? I generally only clean mine every 2 tons and its pretty clean.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 3, 2015)

Polar Bear said:


> Can one ton really clog the venting system that bad? I generally only clean mine every 2 tons and its pretty clean.




In a word yes. Doubly so if there are other factors at work.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 3, 2015)

Eyball said:


> I didn't see any pellets in the chute but the top back part of burn pot right below the chute was coated with goopy creosote so maybe pellets did back up & just burned completely?  When I removed the plate over the auger it was full of partially burned pellets all the way up.





Polar Bear said:


> Can one ton really clog the venting system that bad? I generally only clean mine every 2 tons and its pretty clean.



Yes it can.

Depends, with DF's and 4" vent I can go two tons and not get a whole lot out of the vent. With a real ashy pellet like Green Supreme I do it at about 1.5 tons and get quite a lot out. But that is 4"  vertical vent  with satisfactory EVL and I have never had even close to a backup. . Take 3" vent and run it  with incorrect EVL add 90's and horizontals and you got a whole different thing going on. It's under performing before you add any ash at all..

If the heat, gasses, smoke, pressure, exhaust and ash can't flow out the vent as intended and has someplace else to go it's going there. Just part of the scenario we have been discussing here.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 3, 2015)

Air flow is the most important thing to get correct.  That 20 pounds of ash (1%) is a large pile if it drops out of the exhaust stream outside the vent system no big deal, if it drops out just above the burn pot the stove will likely not light and flash its nice #2 led at you depending on controller.  In between it does other things like make the stove high limit off and so forth and so on.

Just think how lucky you are, you have two air flows to get correct.  Ain't life grand?


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## Owen1508 (Jan 5, 2015)

stoveguy2esw said:


> might want to see if we can get Owen in on this, he is far superior to me on the breckwell product lines, I can generalize but its his product so he would know more of the specifics for the model.
> 
> not bashing the product mind you, its my opinion that in the right set of circumstances a burn back can occur in literally any pellet stove, BUT its exceedingly rare and as I said above it takes more than one issue to make it happen.



Yeah I agree you guys covered a great deal in this thread.  I can not think of anything that was missed.  Sometimes build up of fines can also contribute to a burnback (the fuse that Mike talked about).  I agree with Mike it usually is a combo of various issues , including restriction on the draft, build up after a ton, some sort of downdraft which caused the heat to seek another way out, and possibly even a neg. air pressure issue in the basement.  A "Perfect storm" type of event.You did state it was new old stock from 2008,  Just so happens the 3 that I have available to me are early to late '09 models. I am putting a call into Al Breckel the man behind Breckwell to see what his take is on this.  I do remember in '08 and '09 changes that helped reduce the amount of burn back hopper fires. Going away from Horizontal feed systems was one, this not being a factor in this case.  A sealed hopper lid would cutoff airflow to the pellets and would be recommended.  Although it appears that that hopper has a limited lip.  I'll see if Al can contribute more to this topic.

In the end I'm glad that no one was hurt.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 5, 2015)

Thanks Owen, the more eyes and knowledge the better.


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## Eyball (Jan 5, 2015)

Thanks as well!  The stove has no lip on the hopper plus a plastic pocket handle that melted in the fire so that allowed even more air into the hopper.  It did do a good job of containing the hopper to smoldering pellets & not a flaming fire.  I think if we were home the smoke damage would be much less.  Good to know all my alarms work!

I did get my new 4" pipe ordered.  Decided to go with a T right before pipe goes into wall thimble for easy clean outs!

Thanks again everyone, much appreciated!!


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## kinsmanstoves (Jan 5, 2015)

Looking at this "on paper" it sounds good.  My concern is the stove.  Has there been an issue with creosote, ever?  Has there been an issue with unburnt pellets in the burn pot?

The Breckwell Classic Cast is a good unit and I have never heard of any issue about the hopper construction.  

Eric


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 5, 2015)

Thanks Eric,  I asked Eyball what he did before first fire since the stove came through a party other than a dealer and I am always harping on people about really cleaning used stoves.  I'll let him answer for himself. He also told us about how many pellets he had burned since installing the stove.


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## Eyball (Jan 5, 2015)

The stove was unused when I purchased it new.  I never had an issue with creosote until the night of the fire.  We did have a few times when running on low that the fire burned out and the pot filled with pellets but the stove just shut down and then restarted like normal after.


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## Francois (Jan 9, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> In a word yes. Doubly so if there are other factors at work.



Are you talking about this specific model of stove or in general?  I'm almost at 3 tons this season.  The installers told me to clean once or twice a year and the user manual talk about two times a year.  Now it's more like once a month.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

Francois said:


> Are you talking about this specific model of stove or in general?  I'm almost at 3 tons this season.  The installers told me to clean once or twice a year and the user manual talk about two times a year.  Now it's more like once a month.


Here is the deal. Without first cleaning your flue you can't really establish a good schedule. You are guessing. I know that I can go more than a month with mine because I have cleaned it to get a handle on when it should be done. And then sometimes I do it anyway because why gamble , it's not like it's hard to do.


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## Francois (Jan 9, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> Here is the deal. Without first cleaning your flue you can't really establish a good schedule. You are guessing. I know that I can go more than a month with mine because I have cleaned it to get a handle on when it should be done. And then sometimes I do it anyway because why gamble , it's not like it's hard to do.




Thanks,  you're right.  I'll do that this weekend.  Sure, doing it will bring me the feedback that I need on how often I should do it.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 9, 2015)

Francois said:


> Are you talking about this specific model of stove or in general?  I'm almost at 3 tons this season.  The installers told me to clean once or twice a year and the user manual talk about two times a year.  Now it's more like once a month.



No I'm talking about all stove installations, the thing about cleaning is it is specific to the entire system configuration and the mess that the pellets (or other fuel) produce.

I'll give an example I have a ton of known just meets the PFI premium standard pellets I get 20 pounds of ash out of it, that ash has to go somewhere if it all hit the ash pan no issues and you could burn several seasons and not have to clean anything but the ash pan.   However it doesn't all hit the ash pan so the question becomes where does it go, well some goes out the end of the vent system we don't need to worry about that clogging up the works, whatever is left is inside the stove system interfering with the stove's air flow, this interference slowly degrades the burn which in turn produces more crud to send through the rest of the stove system, the cycle has started and is accelerating.

Now picture a pellet like a top of the line Douglas Fir that tests out under 0.2 percent ash or in this case you have only 4 pounds to start with.  You can now go longer between cleanings than you could with the just meets the standard pellets.

The vent system is where most of the stuff ends up as the combustion blower can usually get  it at least that far (there are exceptions to this).

Now we have a question of how much can a vent system take before it has a problem that will make matters worse.  Well the amount of venting comes into play as does the diameter, with a larger diameter there is more time available between cleanings because there is more room to hold the mess without it it seriously affecting air flow.   The longer the vent system the more places the mess can pileup.  When I talk about vent length I use EVL as my measurement yardstick.

Now that we have the major players somewhat determined,  one should be able to see that a single cleaning recommendation based upon time is useless, in fact it is downright dangerous.

The best cleaning schedule is to monitor your system and inspect the results of the burn and the amount of crud in the venting it is usually easy to tell if you have to play with any draft/damper settings that result in those needing to be open more than they used to be even after you did the normal ash pan/burn pot/ heat exchanger cleaning or you have trouble getting a decent flame (some stoves don't have such items) it is time to do a deep clean.

You will note that even this method has weasel words in it.

But as alternativeheat said you need to start from a clean system in order to figure a usage based cleaning schedule.  I have 3" venting and it is at its limit for all practical purposes so I use the one ton mark plus or minus a decent day outside to do the deed.  I also burn about 5 tons a year so I have about 5 really deep cleanings which includes the venting.  That is far more than the installers said to you.  If I had 4" venting I have no doubt that I could go with a mid and end of season cleaning provided I don't burn dirt in a bad pellets   But being somewhat of a chicken (ba gawk) when it comes to playing with things that can do serious damage I'd be certain to monitor it and adjust the schedule to be on the safe side.


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## Eyball (Jan 10, 2015)

I took the vertical 18' feet out of the chimney and cleaned today and reassembled with the 90 at the bottom and took out the increaser T.  Going to install the rest of the 4" pipe to the stove tomorrow.  This is how much ash came out of the 18'.  I did not think it was that bad.


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## Lake Girl (Jan 10, 2015)

Surprise!


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## hyfire (Jan 10, 2015)

Wow! how much of this was in the horizontal section you think?


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## Eyball (Jan 10, 2015)

This is just from the 18 vertical part.  I did not clean the rest as I replaced it with 4" pipe.  It does not look bad though but does have some buildup.  Maybe 1/8 inch.


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