# Running stove on generator?



## home heater (Nov 16, 2013)

We have power issues with snow on trees has any one used a generator to run their stove? I was told to use a power filter and it would be ok, but what kind of power filter?


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## Bioburner (Nov 16, 2013)

Do a search for generators. Get hashed over regularly. I use a UPS to condition power for minor power irregularities. Power company trimmed the problem trees a month ago for us. No blinks or brown outs since.


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## richkorn (Nov 16, 2013)

Does anyone use the "Search" function here?


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## bill3rail (Nov 16, 2013)

Yes, I have run my stove on a 20something year old Homelite 4000w??? Generator following Sandy last year for about a week with no issues during or after the power outage.  Kept us warm with the fridge and oil burner running also.
I do not use any type of power filter nor do I know what it is!

Bill


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## jgrz0610 (Nov 16, 2013)

Whatever makes you happy buddy.  Do a search and you'll find more than you ever cared to know.  Some swear that "pure sine wave" is essential and others run cheap chinese gennys.  If it was made in the last 10 years it's probably not a square wave so it'll probably work.  I haven't seen anybody who fried their board from a genny, but I wouldn't want to be the first one.  Again, search it out and make the decision based on budget and size of cashews.  When the power is out I run the dino burner with the generator.  Just makes life easier since it does my dhw too.


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## bill3rail (Nov 16, 2013)

I should be running a UPS along with the generator to avoid a sudden dead stove due to not checking the fuel level!

Bill


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## jgrz0610 (Nov 16, 2013)

bill3rail said:


> I should be running a UPS along with the generator to avoid a sudden dead stove due to not checking the fuel level!
> 
> Bill


Or get a hamster that's afraid of the dark and hook him up to a crank wheel...just a thought.


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## bill3rail (Nov 16, 2013)

jgrz0610 said:


> Or get a hamster that's afraid of the dark and hook him up to a crank wheel...just a thought.



I wonder if my Turtle will do that?  Just a thought...


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## gfreek (Nov 16, 2013)

With the money invested in a pellet stove, get a "good" Sine Wave Generator , IMO......Again use the search, plenty of info on that subject..


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## jgrz0610 (Nov 16, 2013)

bill3rail said:


> I wonder if my Turtle will do that?  Just a thought...


Probably, but only on low.  If he stops and starts you forget pure sine wave...

Okay, I'm done.  lol.  I've been amusing myself and not adding anything useful to this thread and for that I apologize.  It's been a slow week.


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## bill3rail (Nov 16, 2013)

jgrz0610 said:


> Okay, I'm done. lol. I've been amusing myself and not adding anything useful to this thread and for that I apologize. It's been a slow week.


And you dragged me right down without any effort!  And for that, you need to apologize again!


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## moey (Nov 16, 2013)

Ive run mine for some time on my 3500w Champion generator. No problems I have no concern about doing it again. People in my opinion make way to much fuss over UPS and their pure sine wave. A UPS is not going to do anything for you except give you a warm lump in your pants thinking its protecting you. 

Dont let it run out of gas and make sure its warm when you put a load on it. That will eliminate 99% of your problems. 

The inverters are nice I have one but I feel no more confident that its putting our 60 hz then the next generator. I like it cause its quiet and it will run all night.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Nov 16, 2013)

moey said:


> Ive run mine for some time on my 3500w Champion generator. No problems I have no concern about doing it again. People in my opinion make way to much fuss over UPS and their pure sine wave. A UPS is not going to do anything for you except give you a warm lump in your pants thinking its protecting you.
> 
> Dont let it run out of gas and make sure its warm when you put a load on it. That will eliminate 99% of your problems.
> 
> The inverters are nice I have one but I feel no more confident that its putting our 60 hz then the next generator. I like it cause its quiet and it will run all night.



I agree with you....I have the same generator and I am not scared to use it....I have a ups mostly for giving me time to get the genny going and second in case it runs out of gas.

I have a cheap pure sine wave inverter genny as well and according to my UPS it is dead on 60 hertz.....the champion under small load was 60.3.......unless you care about the exact time of your clocks i think that is more than acceptable


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## Madcodger (Nov 16, 2013)

The problem with asking this type of question on a board is that we don't know the specifics of YOUR stove, nor YOUR generator.  I have an old Whitfield that would likely run fine on a generator because it's not a very sophisticated machine.  But would I run the Quad MVAE on it, w/o a sine wave UPS?  Nooo...  

All any of us really have unless we have your exact stove and generator are opinions (and even then there are other factors).  So it really boils down to how brave / lucky you feel...  Personally, I'm for the sine wave UPS unless you have a sine wave gennie.


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## home heater (Nov 17, 2013)

I have a wp 5 Whitfield stove and a Steele 1200 watt generator. Thanks for replies I will try the search, new to site. When I got this generator I did't have the stove I got it for camping, was just wondering if I can safely use it for stove. For me it would be ok to get a kerosene heater  ready, and use the generator for a few lights.


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## MikeNH (Nov 18, 2013)

moey said:


> A UPS is not going to do anything for you except give you a warm lump in your pants thinking its protecting you.



I think they come in handy for folks with direct-vent.  My stoves vent pipe is a horizontal run.  I got an UPS to keep the stove running long enough for me to start the generator.


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## Bioburner (Nov 18, 2013)

I installed a propain stove that needs no electricity and the thermostat is battery powered. Bought the stove off Craigslist for $100 and got the piping at the fleamarket. Only thing purchased retail was the tile and the venting stand off. Less than $300 total. Our UPS is for more for power conditioning and short outages. Have a thirty year old Honda generator for freezers if power out for more than three days.


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## moey (Nov 18, 2013)

MikeNH said:


> I think they come in handy for folks with direct-vent.  My stoves vent pipe is a horizontal run.  I got an UPS to keep the stove running long enough for me to start the generator.



I agree but what happens when your not home?


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## Harvey Schneider (Nov 18, 2013)

Madcodger said:


> But would I run the Quad MVAE on it, w/o a sine wave UPS? Nooo...


I get your point, but the stove you chose as a model is an exception. The MVAE will run on a 12V battery no generator, UPS, or inverter needed.
I think that the whole pure sine issue is over blown. The worst I have ever seen when digital electronics was run on dirty power is momentary mis-operation. Typically it reset or declared a fault, but I haven't seen anything fried by dirty power.
Running on a generator during the generator startup or during generator shut down (out of gas) is another story and should be avoided.


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## MikeNH (Nov 20, 2013)

moey said:


> I agree but what happens when your not home?



That's the downside.  To answer your question - the stove will run for about 1 hour then go out.  How likely is this though for me?  Not very.  In the years we've been here, just about every time we've lost power has been during severe weather and we've been home, though things happen and its not perfect.  However, the UPS greatly minimizes the chance of a smokey house and pissed off wife.


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## Runi Brantas (Nov 21, 2013)

home heater said:


> We have power issues with snow on trees has any one used a generator to run their stove? I was told to use a power filter and it would be ok, but what kind of power filter?


A UPS (uninteruptable power supply) works. Plug stove into UPS (battery side) and the UPS plugs into the wall outlet.


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## tfdchief (Nov 21, 2013)

Pure sine wave. Square sine wave. It depends. I have a 1980 buck stove that won't run on a square wave inverter. So age doesn't 'necessarily mean much.


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## Woody1911a1 (Nov 21, 2013)

wow 1980 . i've always wondered when pellet stoves came into being , but i believe it was even earlier because i remember on a stay at an a hostel in the mid 70's a stove where wood pellets came down a tube/slide from the side .


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## Bioburner (Nov 21, 2013)

There is a Heatalator fireplace with a pellet feed on the side for sale on CL in Grand Rapids, MN. That has to be before stand alone stoves started in the early 80s


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## abarone (Dec 16, 2014)

Been reading through this thread and many others discussing the issue/s of running a pellet stove on a generator. Wanted to share my experience and concern.

I have a QuadraFire Castile purchased in 2013. Just purchased a Champion 7500 Watt Generator for the house.  I have the pellet stove on a UPS, the CyberPower CP1000AVRLCD (600 Watt). 

I tested out my setup by starting up the generator and connecting the line to the UPS while the stove was running.  UPS did its job and kept the stove running, however, there was a slight change in sound from the fans when running off the UPS and after connecting the UPS to the generator.

The UPS was putting out 120/60Hz while on battery, after connecting to the generator it changed to 62Hz. The UPS also cycled to the battery a few times while connected to the generator, but seemed to stop that after a few minutes.

How concerned should I be about the change in sound from the fans?  I’m assuming this indicates they’re not running quite the same as when its on outlet AC.

Also, how concerning should the change in Hz be?

Any info greatly appreciated!


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 16, 2014)

abarone said:


> Been reading through this thread and many others discussing the issue/s of running a pellet stove on a generator. Wanted to share my experience and concern.
> 
> I have a QuadraFire Castile purchased in 2013. Just purchased a Champion 7500 Watt Generator for the house.  I have the pellet stove on a UPS, the CyberPower CP1000AVRLCD (600 Watt).
> 
> ...



The sound when you are running on battery via the UPS is due to the modified sine wave produced.  Motors don't particularly like a modified sine wave.
As for the the generator.  I have then 3500 version and it runs just fine.  I also get about 62 Hz but it doesn't seem to bother anything.  The change in sound is probably due to the change from modified sine wave of the UPS to the normal (although dirtier) wave form of the Generator.  Also.  The generator may be putting out a slightly higher voltage than your normal utility so it may sound a bit different for that reason.
I would be more concerned about running on that UPS than the generator.  I have never met anyone who destroyed anything running on a Genny.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 16, 2014)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> As for the the generator. I have then 3500 version and it runs just fine. I also get about 62 Hz but it doesn't seem to bother anything. The change in sound is probably due to the change from modified sine wave of the UPS to the normal (although dirtier) wave form of the Generator.



Since when is the Champion generator not modified sine wave too?


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## michpelletburner (Dec 16, 2014)

I have a 9000 watt generac that powers the whole house, stove seemed to run just fine on it no abnormal sounds or anything but i do have a monster power surge protector on it. The only thing in the house that seems to sound funny some times is a small fan i run in the bedroom


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## jdinny (Dec 16, 2014)

We have an 8500w Black Max.
We also have an Eaton whole house surge suppressor, and the P43 is plugged into a UPS to give me time to switch over to generator power as I am vented straight out.
I have the generator hard wired into the breaker box with an interlock.
last year, we were on generator power for 6 days straight, and several other short outages. 
Over Thanksgiving, we were out from wed am to fri am.
No problems at all.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 16, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Since when is the Champion generator not modified sine wave too?



Regular generators have the same wave form as your outlet.  Not as clean a sine wave, although some are not that bad.  Modified sine waves and square sine waves and pure sine waves are terms to distinguish between inverter technologies.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 16, 2014)

Here is a pic:  you can see the wave is not perfect and who knows if it always looks like this


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## abarone (Dec 16, 2014)

How concerned should I be having it connected to the UPS?  My reasoning is that if/when the power goes out, my pellet stove will run for another 15 minutes or so, giving me time to get the generator going.  Also, when the gene runs out of gas, it will protect the stove from the brownout.  

Is the square sinewave more of a concern than the brownout?  If not a UPS, should I just use a surge protector?
Again, really appreciate the help.  I'm kinda new to all this and trying to sort it all out.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 16, 2014)

abarone said:


> How concerned should I be having it connected to the UPS?  My reasoning is that if/when the power goes out, my pellet stove will run for another 15 minutes or so, giving me time to get the generator going.  Also, when the gene runs out of gas, it will protect the stove from the brownout.
> 
> Is the square sinewave more of a concern than the brownout?  If not a UPS, should I just use a surge protector?
> Again, really appreciate the help.  I'm kinda new to all this and trying to sort it all out.


Now I have no way to know and this is not my area of expertise.  But short lived once in a bluemoon usage for a proper shutdown,  I would not be concerned.  But that's me.  Brown out verus Modified sine wave??  Not sure.  I have had things die do to prolonged low voltage.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 16, 2014)

Cyberpower and APC make pure sine wave inverters.  I have a Cyberpower model.  I bought it after hearing my pellet stove motors sound labored after trying an APC modified UPS.


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## Jason845845 (Dec 16, 2014)

I have a couple old kerosun brand kerosene heaters and use the generator to power the home theatre and margarita machine.


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## Bridgeman (Dec 16, 2014)

I don't run any electronics on my generator. That includes the flat screen and my pellet stove. I managed to fry the clock on my electric cook stove on this last storm by killing the motor prior to cutting the power. A dumb move on my part. I just got out of sequence on the shut down when I finally got the power back. There was a problem with the utility power last year where I lost the flat screen, washing machine and coffee maker. Electronics don't like dirty power. Too much or too little voltage, bad sine wave, out of phase spikes from your neighbors. With the whole neighborhood running generators who knows what's in the grid in a big event. The fridge and the oil furnace are at risk too but mine are older units and what's the point if you can't run those.


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## unbidden (Dec 16, 2014)

Jason845845 said:


> I have a couple old kerosun brand kerosene heaters and use the generator to power the home theatre and margarita machine.



It's about time somebody gave the correct answer for this thread..  ;-)  .. salt or no salt?!


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## Jason845845 (Dec 16, 2014)

unbidden said:


> It's about time somebody gave the correct answer for this thread..  ;-)  .. salt or no salt?!



Salt and cheap tequila! Arrrrrrrriba!


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## abarone (Dec 16, 2014)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> Cyberpower and APC make pure sine wave inverters.  I have a Cyberpower model.  I bought it after hearing my pellet stove motors sound labored after trying an APC modified UPS.


I bought a CyberPower UPS and after some correspondence with their Sr. Tech Support guy, he told me it is a "Simulated sine wave, stepped waveform".


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## Jason845845 (Dec 16, 2014)

Back on subject kind of.... You really can't beat a convection style kerosene heater for emergencies.  One of mine does 13,000 btu for almost 24 hours on a gallon of fuel and as a bonus, it is also a lantern.  As far as safety goes, they are ul listed and all you really need to do is crack a window and have a co detector.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 16, 2014)

Jason845845 said:


> You really can't beat a convection style kerosene heater for emergencies.



Yes I can. It weighs five hundred pounds and burns cord wood. 

I don't have to let it cool down and take it outside to refuel it safely. I have heated with kero before. Stinks on start-up and shutdown and I could never bring myself to go to sleep with one burning in the house.


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## gfreek (Dec 16, 2014)

abrone, the CP1000AVRLCD is a "Simulated" Sine Wave UPS versus " Pure" Sine Wave and maybe that's why the stove sounded funny when running off it alone.. oops sorry didn't see your post


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## Jason845845 (Dec 16, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Yes I can. It weighs five hundred pounds and burns cord wood.
> 
> I don't have to let it cool down and take it outside to refuel it safely. I have heated with kero before. Stinks on start-up and shutdown and I could never bring myself to go to sleep with one burning in the house.



Touché....however..... I don't have wood to keep on hand for an unlikely power outage, nor do I have a wood stove.  What I do have is 3 cans of fuel ready to go.  

How many members here slept soundly the first night burning their stove?


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 16, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Yes I can. It weighs five hundred pounds and burns cord wood.
> 
> I don't have to let it cool down and take it outside to refuel it safely. I have heated with kero before. Stinks on start-up and shutdown and *I could never bring myself to go to sleep with one burning in the house*.


 
Wise move on your part.  Was a kero heater that almost killed us and roasted the house long ago.  Got me into bio fuel stoves actually...and, they stink.

I have to get my hot buttered popcorn from the microwave for this thread so I'll be right back....


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## Jason845845 (Dec 16, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> Wise move on your part.  Was a kero heater that almost killed us and roasted the house long ago.  Got me into bio fuel stoves actually...and, they stink.
> 
> I have to get my hot buttered popcorn from the microwave for this thread so I'll be right back....



I'll be waiting....armed with links from people dying of co poisoning from generators and links from people killed from fires started by wood stoves


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 16, 2014)

Jason845845 said:


> I'll be waiting....armed with links from people dying of co poisoning from generators and links from people killed from fires started by wood stoves


 
Assuredly there are lots of preventable deaths from portable gennerators emitting co in garages and/or living spaces because people don't use their heads except for ear spacing.  Woodstoves. probably not as many but I bet lots of fires from creosote buildup in flues that again people don't clean and again ear spacing is the prime culprit....

I had a kero heater malfunction in a living space in the middle of the night and we came real close to being a statistic.l..  so no, I don't care for them but your experience may be different.  Mine is no kero heaters in the house.


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## Jason845845 (Dec 16, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> Assuredly there are lots of preventable deaths from portable gennerators emitting co in garages and/or living spaces because people don't use their heads except for ear spacing.  Woodstoves. probably not as many but I bet lots of fires from creosote buildup in flues that again people don't clean and again ear spacing is the prime culprit....
> 
> I had a kero heater malfunction in a living space in the middle of the night and we came real close to being a statistic.l..  so no, I don't care for them but your experience may be different.  Mine is no kero heaters in the house.



I respect that. I would never leave a kero heater unattended let alone sleep with one going. For me, they are well maintained and the best option for me during a power outage.  That being said, If there is a catastrophic power outage (again) I'll be at work anyway and my wife and son will be at her mother's house.

Edit:how did it malfunction?


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 16, 2014)

Jason845845 said:


> Edit:how did it malfunction?


 
Not sure but it started to burn extremely rich and emitted clouds of black smoke and carbon.  When we woke up in the next room (bedroom) and I opened the door, there was no breathable air in the room it was in, it had used all the oxygen up and went out.  Was terrible.  We had to completely strip the room down to the studs, replace the floor, sheetrock, all the furniture, everything except the windows.  Insurance covered most of it but I could always smell the stink, even when we sold the place.  There was so much soot floating in the air it was pitch black in the room.  Very strange sensation...  Bad memory.  If I had left the bedroom door open, I'd not be typing this now.

We moved here over 30 years ago and we have always had a biofuel stove.  Much nicer.....  No fear of going to bed and not waking up. .....(except from old age maybe).


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## Jason845845 (Dec 16, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> Not sure but it started to burn extremely rich and emitted clouds of black smoke and carbon.  When we woke up in the next room (bedroom) and I opened the door, there was no breathable air in the room it was in, it had used all the oxygen up and went out.  Was terrible.  We had to completely strip the room down to the studs, replace the floor, sheetrock, all the furniture, everything except the windows.  Insurance covered most of it but I could always smell the stink, even when we sold the place.  There was so much soot floating in the air it was pitch black in the room.  Very strange sensation...  Bad memory.  If I had left the bedroom door open, I'd not be typing this now.
> 
> We moved here over 30 years ago and we have always had a biofuel stove.  Much nicer.....  No fear of going to bed and not waking up. .....(except from old age maybe).



Yikes...glad you guys got out safe!  I can't even imagine the stench that must have created.  Must have been like sticking your head in a diesel truck exhaust stack.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 16, 2014)

I actually got a little queasy while I responded to your question.  The room actually had a floral print wallpaper on one wall that was a shade of red.  When we got the soot/smoke out, the wallpaper had turned black grey.  Amazing amount of soot-smoke in the air.

That heater went to the landfill after I ran it over with the tractor a couple times.

I see they still sell them.  Hopefully the newer ones are safer than the one I had.  It was a Kero-Sun I believe.

I have much more confidence in a negative drafted electronically controlled multifuel stove.  Things can happen with anthing that contains fire in any form, no doubt, but after the oil heater, a multifuel stove is pretty calm.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 16, 2014)

Used one in 2000 when business kept me from cutting a stick of wood. The heat pump had died from lack of use in the ninties. Heated the house great placed in the entryway where heat moved up the stairs and I could take it out on the porch to fuel it. But I just could not leave the house or go to bed with it burning.

Every morning when I would light it I would hear the Little Brown Haired Girl upstairs with her best Robert Duvall imitation say "God I love the smell of kero in the morning!".


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 16, 2014)

The smell of kero really don't bother me, but it permeates everything in the house it seems.  I'm in the transportation business heavy diesel trucks so the smell of an oil burner certainly isn't alien to me.  Diesel fuel....Hillbilly incense...  Especially in the winter time.  firing up a cold diesel (pre tier 4), they smoke like pigs until the combustion chamber gets hot enough to really burn the fuel.  Kerosene is really more refined No.1 diesel, in fact we add it in the winter as an ant-gel additive.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 16, 2014)

I've got one of those uber buck Yamaha 7 pole inverter generators, I believe it's 2300 running wats.  Super quiet, automatic idle, 12 volt charge capability and runs all day and night on a couple gallons.  I really like it but I use it for the truck camper, not around the house.  According to my literature, it's pure sine wave power, electronically regulated 60hz, ideal for sensative electronics.

My whole farm 17KW genny runs everything including the stove, never been an issue in the last 12 years.


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## TonyVideo (Dec 16, 2014)

My Honda eu2000i generator has a pure sin wave and perfect for electronics. I have it wired into the house and it runs my entertainment center, refrigerator, office computers and 2 pellet stoves with no problem. Stoves on UPS that will go into shutdown mode and cycle the exhaust to keep smoke out of the house until I can get the genny going. I work from home and needed a pure sine wave generator for my computers. Honda sips gas. I have an external 6 gal. marine tank hooked up as well and get 36 hours total. I keep a couple additional 5 gal cans on hand and rotate to keep me going for easily 4-5 days. Never had to go that far yet. I figure if I need to go longer I have bigger issues to deal with.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 16, 2014)

Tony...

I believe the Honda and the Yamaha share the same generator heads and electronics but different engines.  Not sure if Honda or Yamaha makes the electrical ends however.  I know they are both typical Japanese quality units.  IOW, built like a watch.


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## TonyVideo (Dec 16, 2014)

Worth every penny and yes build quality is great. Inverters built in with eco throttles which is why I love it.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 16, 2014)

My Yamaha has 2 settings, 'economy' where it idles and grabs the load and speeds up accordingly or 'normal' which is balls out all the time....

I was amazed when I bought it years ago (it's at least 12 years old) that a small genny had auto idle.  My big gas driven welder generator (Lincoln) has it but I had never seen auto idle on a small unit until the Yamaha.

Very tidy little unit, albeit expensive but you get what you pay for.


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## Wilbur Feral (Dec 16, 2014)

I keep thinking Bart or another staff member will turn some of these questions into stickies without the off the rails discussions included (and with correct info only), but that would likely drop site traffic about 70%.

A change to 62 Hz is not likely a worry and essentially within spec for a generator, as engine speed affects this.  A very slight reduction in gen engine speed would likely drop it to 60, but under higher load you would likely be in high 50's.  If you're really worried, here's a link to Champion's discussion of the situation: http://www.championpowerequipment.com/pdf/tech-bulletins/rpm_and_frequency_adjustment-8_10_2007.pdf

The fan sounds different because both wave form, voltage, and frequency are off a bit on a gen.  Someone said wave form from a regular generator was same as that of your outlet. That's not really accurate, as utility power (and sine wave generators) do an excellent job of keeping the transition from pole to pole in an AC current very smooth (proportional to the sine of the angle of rotation at any given point), while modified sine wave inverters on most household backup generators allow this transition to occur in jumps, or steps.  Some electronics do fine with that, while others operate less efficiently and perhaps erratically.  Heat build up is a common problem.  The problem is that one never knows just how much of this one's electronics can take before damage occurs.  More modern geneators often correct the modified wave considerably, producing a reasonably smooth curve but not a true sine wave, which balances cost with power output and smoothness of the wave (transition from pole to pole that occurs about 60 times per second in AC power).  Personally, I find that our electronics perform reasonably well on generator power, but we have a decent quality Generac unit that produces a stepped wave (just a modified sine wave with a bit of smoothing that helps somewhat).

Your UPS is likely not a problem at all, except that it is likely not doing much to correct the lack of a sine wave being produced, and may or may not perform well when running on a generator for extended periods.  We had Cyberpower units that just wouldn't run on generator power, but they were inexpensive units.  We recycled them.  Our more expensive APC units do better for us, but cheap units from that company may have issues as well.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 16, 2014)

Wilbur Feral said:


> I keep thinking Bart or another staff member will turn some of these questions into stickies without the off the rails discussions included (and with correct info only), but that would likely drop site traffic about 70%.



No problem with site traffic. If somebody would write up a cogent article on the subject it would make a good sticky. Won't stop a dozen threads a year started when they don't see it, but we could point to it when they do.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 16, 2014)

My 17KW is a Generac as well.  According to the service manual, you set it (compensating throttle) no load at 62hz and according the Generac full load should reduce engine rpm to produce approximately 60hz., but then modified sine wave or not, the power is distributed throughout my home/farm wiring so that may 'smooth' things out somewhat, unlike running a stove or computer directly from a generator output in the case of a small wattage genny.  On an extended run, I notice no variation in time on the electric analog clock in the den so I have to assume it's darn close to 60hz.

I'll have to put my Fluke on the output sometime and check the frequency.  The installer did that initially some years ago and it works fine so I've had no reason to check the frequency.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 16, 2014)

Just what my house that never exceeds 6.5 KWH continuous needs, a fuel trashing 17 KWH genny.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 16, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Just what my house that never exceeds 6.5 KWH continuous needs, a fuel trashing 17 KWH genny.


 

Obviously you aren't heating stock tanks and/or maintaining power in barns....and with 1000 gallons of LP on hand all the time it makes a small dent in the level gage..... and it's a business expense.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 16, 2014)

Obviously. Heck everybody here is doing that. With pellets.


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## adam6979 (Dec 17, 2014)

I can say for certain, from experience that True Sine Wave is needed for most appliances. I bought a regular UPS when I first got the Quad 1200 the first time I tested it the motors hummed so bad I immediately shut it off. Purchased the SMARTUPS which is true sine wave and it works flawless. I actually contact APC directly to find out what the problem was and they said that electric motors can burn out using a non "smartups" (or true sinewave). So I can attest there is a difference. Also generators can vary voltage with loads. So having the UPS in between the stoves and generator gives you a margin for error. Also how many times can the generator surge when something shuts off? I think it is cheap protection.


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## F4jock (Dec 17, 2014)

Run my Harman directly off an older 17.6 KW Onan with auto-start. Never had any problems, period. Genny starts after 20 seconds of power outage. Everything works with no further fussing needed.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 17, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Obviously. Heck everybody here is doing that. With pellets.


 
I'd sure like you (or anyone else foir that matter)explain to me how to maintain cattle water tanks from freezing in sub zero weather or how to power a machine and fabrication shoip or how to provide light vith a pellet stove....  obviously, you can't.  I heat my home with pellets and/or corn and have for years but that has little to do with the rest of the operation, in fact, 17KW in a power outage, in the winter is marginal at best, especially when the shop is powered up.  Been considering a 25KW Diesel powered standby with 3 phase 440 output..

We don't live in a house on a lot, this is a working cattle farm and enterprise with all the things (electrical powered that go with it).  My typical utility bill is around 350-400 bucks monthly in the winter, depending on how cold it gets and electrical load....

If you have a viable alternative, I'd like to know, if not, don't deride me.

Back to regular programming....


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 17, 2014)

Wilbur Feral said:


> I keep thinking Bart or another staff member will turn some of these questions into stickies without the off the rails discussions included (and with correct info only), but that would likely drop site traffic about 70%.
> 
> A change to 62 Hz is not likely a worry and essentially within spec for a generator, as engine speed affects this.  A very slight reduction in gen engine speed would likely drop it to 60, but under higher load you would likely be in high 50's.  If you're really worried, here's a link to Champion's discussion of the situation: http://www.championpowerequipment.com/pdf/tech-bulletins/rpm_and_frequency_adjustment-8_10_2007.pdf
> 
> The fan sounds different because both wave form, voltage, and frequency are off a bit on a gen.  Someone said wave form from a regular generator was same as that of your outlet. That's not really accurate, as utility power (and sine wave generators) do an excellent job of keeping the transition from pole to pole in an AC current very smooth (proportional to the sine of the angle of rotation at any given point), while modified sine wave inverters on most household backup generators allow this transition to occur in jumps, or steps.  Generac unit that produces a stepped wave (just a modified sine wave with a bit of smoothing that helps somewhat).



I had said they were similar to ac power from the outlet.  The wave form is created in a similar fashion, not as clean or true as utility or "pure" sine wave inverters.    What I was trying to point out is that the wave form from a regular generator is NOT a modified sine wave since there is no inverter to create a wave form electronically from dc power.  Maybe I/we are splitting hairs as the result in perforance may be the same.


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## F4jock (Dec 17, 2014)

My genny is a little bit fast; clocks run a minute or two fast per hour. Does nothing bad other than this. As I said, stove runs fine. Really don't see the problem.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 17, 2014)

Here is a pic that describes the different wave forms.  A normal generator will look much more like a true sine wave than the modified sine wave.   Modified sine waves have electronics that produce that shape and it should look the same all the time.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 17, 2014)

For those of you with pellet stoves, what kind of wattage does it take when igniting on startup?  My boiler takes about 1500 watts, I believe (have to check the energy meter when it starts up next).  Just for a few minutes though.


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## F4jock (Dec 17, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> For those of you with pellet stoves, what kind of wattage does it take when igniting on startup?  My boiler takes about 1500 watts, I believe (have to check the energy meter when it starts up next).  Just for a few minutes though.


I show between 300 and 500 watts for the Harman 15 fin.


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## Boobo0 (Dec 17, 2014)

I've done it on a few occasions, has always made me uncomfortable doing it.  But ya need heat!


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## mchasal (Dec 17, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> For those of you with pellet stoves, what kind of wattage does it take when igniting on startup?  My boiler takes about 1500 watts, I believe (have to check the energy meter when it starts up next).  Just for a few minutes though.



My ESW pulls about 300 watts with the ignitor running and about 100 watts after that according to the Kill-a-watt.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 17, 2014)

The boiler just started.  The ignition phase is more like 1200 watts.


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## Bioburner (Dec 17, 2014)

Biggest stove electrical consumer in our house is the Bixby on startup. Two 500 watt igniters for a total of just a hair over 1100 watts needed for startup. But it's full power-heat output in less than five minutes. Probably could rival a gas central furnace.


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## zrtmatos (Dec 17, 2014)

unbidden said:


> It's about time somebody gave the correct answer for this thread..  ;-)  .. salt or no salt?!


 What he said!


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## Deromax (Dec 17, 2014)

Lot of misconceptions about power here!

1) The power utility supplies a sinusoidal wave form with minimal distortion, ie "pure", produced by alternators. (first pic)

2) A conventionnal home generator also use an alternator but it may produce a slightly less than perfect sine wave, ie with a slight but mostly irrelevant distortion. (second pic)

3) Several decades ago, the first inverters produced a square wave, because it was the simplest thing to do with the then available tech.  They made motors humm like mad and power supplies to overheat, so were eventually phased out. (pic 3)

4) In the last 15 years or so, inverters began to use a slightly less square waveform.  Despite the sharp edged looking waveform, this will powers a lot of things without much issue, including "delicate electronics".  (pic 4)

5) With advancing in tech, is became feasibly at affordable cost to manufacture a pure sine wave inverter, so they did.  Those are still more expensive than modified sine wave however.  Hence the two kind are still sold to this day for differents price points.

6) Gennies manufacturers began to use inverters in their products as it allows them to throttle down or even iddle with a slight load, something a traditionnal genny can't do.

What kind of inverter is part of your "inverter genny" is a matter of what the manufacturer decided to use.  They are usually eager to promote the fact that they use pure since wave in their promo material.  Honda and Yamaha have well known such products.  A cheaper inverter-genny that doesn't spell it clearly might be suspect in this regard.  Maybe the cheap Chineese no-name units.

So, everything pure sine wave and conventionnal gennies should powers a pellet stove OK as is, with no need for power conditionners, surge protectors or additionnal inverters inbetween.  In the case of a modified sine-wave, I would say, try it, it might just work!


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 17, 2014)

Deromax said:


> Lot of misconceptions about power here!
> 
> 1) The power utility supplies a sinusoidal wave form with minimal distortion, ie "pure", produced by alternators. (first pic)
> 
> ...



Much more articulate than what I was trying to say.


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## gfreek (Dec 17, 2014)

Good explanation..


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## 2biker (Dec 17, 2014)

Ok...so if you are running a moderate size generator (like 5,6, or 7k), why use pellets? I run a 7k during outages. And if I'm making that kind of power, I take advantage of it and run electric space heaters. 3 heaters can keep the house comfortable during the day. I shut everything down at 11 pm and start up again at 6am to get hot water for showers. If I'm paying for generator gas, you might as well get your money's worth out of it.


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## novah (Dec 17, 2014)

<snip>5) With advancing in tech, is became feasibly at affordable cost to manufacture a pure sine wave inverter, so they did. Those are still more expensive than modified sine wave however. Hence the two kind are still sold to this day for differents price points.</snip>

If you have a generator without an on board inverter, can you run a pure sine wave inverter off a deep cycle battery for the delicate electronics with a battery charger powered by the generator to keep the battery fully charged?


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## Bassmantweed (Dec 17, 2014)

2biker said:


> Ok...so if you are running a moderate size generator (like 5,6, or 7k), why use pellets? I run a 7k during outages. And if I'm making that kind of power, I take advantage of it and run electric space heaters. 3 heaters can keep the house comfortable during the day. I shut everything down at 11 pm and start up again at 6am to get hot water for showers. If I'm paying for generator gas, you might as well get your money's worth out of it.



This makes no sense to me. But to each their own.


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## mchasal (Dec 18, 2014)

novah said:


> If you have a generator without an on board inverter, can you run a pure sine wave inverter off a deep cycle battery for the delicate electronics with a battery charger powered by the generator to keep the battery fully charged?



Though it sounds pretty inefficient due to all the conversions (AC from the generator, to DC in the charger, to the battery, then back to AC from the inverter) what you're describing sounds like an "Online UPS" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply#Online.2Fdouble-conversion

I think it would work as you describe and if the goal is just to get sine wave power from the generator in an emergency, electrical efficiency probably isn't a big concern. However, you will need to make sure the battery charger is capable of keeping up with the draw from the load or you will eventually run down the battery. At that point I suppose the charger will be trying to run the load directly and will not be able to do so. Not sure what happens in that case, but it's probably not great. Also, make sure the battery has adequate ventilation.

I believe you could even eliminate the battery and charger from the loop and just run a 12v ac-dc power supply of sufficient capacity from the generator directly to the inverter. Again, will have some inefficiencies, but should achieve the goal. Of course, without the battery you won't have any UPS feature that will keep the stove running if the generator stops.

Unless I'm wrong, which I'm sure someone will point out soon if so.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 18, 2014)

All of those six to seven day power outages running on the cheap generator finally killed my refrigerator. After 29.5 years.

Only thing that has ever crapped out. Including the server farm in the basement before I shut it down and retired.


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## novah (Dec 18, 2014)

I thought the UPS was a short term device  - maybe a hour or two - and I am looking for a safe way to run electronics for the duration of the outage. Am I mis-understanding what a UPS is?


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## alternativeheat (Dec 18, 2014)

About the longest the power goes out around here is 3 days and that's on a pretty major outage. I guess we are close enough to the main line power coming on cape that they get to us fairly soon. Most outages are a couple of hours otherwise. We bought the 5.5K generator so the main heat supply in the house could run in power outages because my 90 YO father in law lived in the attached apartment and he needed nearly 24 hour care, never mind freezing.   So long story short, I don't keep the pellet stove going in power outages but run the central heating system, most appliances and several lights and outlets in the house and apartment.. I even run my coffee maker and the care giver girls used to run the microwave over in the apartment when the old man was in there. Having that generator really takes the curse off of threatening weather, I'm really not concerned if I get pellet stove heat or not for that short of a time but if I had no other means of heat I would just try the generator first , it runs everything else in the house and many have digital displays, LCDs etc.


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## 2biker (Dec 18, 2014)

Excellent post, Alternativeheat.  Can't understand why people in this forum enjoy paying for generator gas for the opportunity to burn pellets during an extended outage. Well.... if you like living in one room with one heat source...and don't mind spending the extra $. Then God bless you. But if you produce the extra electricity...it is use it or loose it!  Take full advantage of that generator and spread the heat to other areas of the house with space heaters. To me, It's like free heat.


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## bogieb (Dec 18, 2014)

2biker said:


> Ok...so if you are running a moderate size generator (like 5,6, or 7k), why use pellets? I run a 7k during outages. And if I'm making that kind of power, I take advantage of it and run electric space heaters. 3 heaters can keep the house comfortable during the day. I shut everything down at 11 pm and start up again at 6am to get hot water for showers. If I'm paying for generator gas, you might as well get your money's worth out of it.



One reason I can think of is that my pellet stove has cast iron cover plates. When the stove shuts down, it will radiate heat for a long time. So, if I have to shut down the generator at night (for safety purposes), and it is -13 (and possibly windy to boot), the house can get mighty cold mighty quickly unless you have a big heat sink that will share its warmth when the surroundings cool down.


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## mchasal (Dec 18, 2014)

2biker said:


> To me, It's like free heat.



I haven't measured it, and maybe your generator is different than mine, but mine uses more fuel running a higher load on the generator than a lower one. So it would cost me more in fuel to run a few thousand watts of space heaters than 100 watts of the pellet stove. I have no idea which one would actually be cheaper to run once you factor the pellet cost in, but the heat from my generator wouldn't be free.


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## mchasal (Dec 18, 2014)

novah said:


> I thought the UPS was a short term device  - maybe a hour or two - and I am looking for a safe way to run electronics for the duration of the outage. Am I mis-understanding what a UPS is?



A UPS is always supplying power to the load, so in that regard it is a long term, constant supply device. The only short term part is when the utility power is lost it will keep supplying power from the battery until that is depleted. So when you take a UPS and plug it into a generator, the generator becomes the utility and it will continue to run off that power. Though I've read that some UPS units won't run properly off some generators.

The setup you describe is basically an online/double conversion UPS as described in that wikipedia link. The power for the load is always coming from the battery and as long as the utility power is there, the battery is being recharged. As long as utility power of some sort is entering the input, it will run "forever" (barring equipment failure etc) I'm sure the commercial models are a bit more advanced, but that's the basic idea. It gives you the advantage that you can still provide power to the load while you refuel or service the generator for as long as the battery will allow.


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## adam6979 (Dec 18, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> I'd sure like you (or anyone else foir that matter)explain to me how to maintain cattle water tanks from freezing in sub zero weather or how to power a machine and fabrication shoip or how to provide light vith a pellet stove....  obviously, you can't.  I heat my home with pellets and/or corn and have for years but that has little to do with the rest of the operation, in fact, 17KW in a power outage, in the winter is marginal at best, especially when the shop is powered up.  Been considering a 25KW Diesel powered standby with 3 phase 440 output..
> 
> We don't live in a house on a lot, this is a working cattle farm and enterprise with all the things (electrical powered that go with it).  My typical utility bill is around 350-400 bucks monthly in the winter, depending on how cold it gets and electrical load....
> 
> ...




I agree - someday we will have a higher generator. Probably a 30k diesel military generator, of course wired to automatically switch on/off in event of power loss. We have a large setup too and yes generator is the way to go. When everyone else is in the dark... it'll make you smile to go on with life like it never happened.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 18, 2014)

adam6979 said:


> I agree - someday we will have a higher generator. Probably a 30k diesel military generator, of course wired to automatically switch on/off in event of power loss. We have a large setup too and yes generator is the way to go. When everyone else is in the dark... it'll make you smile to go on with life like it never happened.


 
Sent you a PM......


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## Deromax (Dec 18, 2014)

2biker said:


> But if you produce the extra electricity...it is use it or loose it!  Take full advantage of that generator and spread the heat to other areas of the house with space heaters. To me, It's like free heat.



Not exactly. There is no free lunch.  If you consume more electricity, your genny will consume more fuel, which is highly taxed car gasoline.  Heating with electric on a genny is about the most expensive way to heat, and it will make the genny work much harder.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 18, 2014)

But you can apply for a Federal, and in most states, refund or credit for off road use of the gasoline. I file for it every year. The 25 gallons I purchase every October either gets used in the generators in outages or into the garden tractor starting the following Spring.

"To claim a credit for the federal tax, taxpayers file with their tax return Form 4136,_Credit for Federal Tax Paid on Fuels_. If the expense for purchasing the fuel (including the tax) is deducted as a business expense, the credit or refund must be included in gross income by the taxpayer. Taxpayers with at least $750 in credit or refund due in a quarter or any number of quarters within a year may file for a refund with Schedule 1 of Form 8849, _Claim for Refund of Excise Taxes_."


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## 2biker (Dec 19, 2014)

You don't appreciate electricity until you have none. You don't buy a generator with the intention of running it at half load. True, here in southwestern CT, we don't get the extreme cold as our friends to the north. So spending $30 or $40 per day for gas during an outage is a lot cheaper then my friends who flee to a hotel. And to run a generator at a reduce load....what are you going to save? Two maybe three gallons a day? Who wants to spend their power outages living in one room around one heat source? If you take your time and execute your plan, an outage should be nothing more then the inconvenient sound of a running  generator.


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## alternativeheat (Dec 19, 2014)

2biker said:


> You don't appreciate electricity until you have none. You don't buy a generator with the intention of running it at half load. True, here in southwestern CT, we don't get the extreme cold as our friends to the north. So spending $30 or $40 per day for gas during an outage is a lot cheaper then my friends who flee to a hotel. And to run a generator at a reduce load....what are you going to save? Two maybe three gallons a day? Who wants to spend their power outages living in one room around one heat source? If you take your time and execute your plan, an outage should be nothing more then the inconvenient sound of a running  generator.



I very much appreciate that I have central heating, hot water, a few outlets, our tenants apartment, two rooms lit, downstairs bath lit and powered up . When a storm hits that is mighty comfortable living compared with a 36 deg dark house for three or four days, even if we have oil lamps going in some other areas of the hosue... I could put more circuits online actually , as the gen runs well below half output but I really don't want to pay for a larger transfer switch.. As to gas, it does all that on less than 10 gal a day of fuel. But it is not a standby gen, it's a portable. Shut it down every 10 hours or so, check the oil refill the gas. I am not complaining, a lot of people, in fact most out this way have no generator. i think us and our tenant live pretty comfortably through a winter storm.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 19, 2014)

In the last big storm, a number of gas stations didn't have any gas to sell because of delivery problems.  Plenty of others didn't have backup generation, so gas wasn't available.  That's my reason for economizing on gas during an outage.


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## mchasal (Dec 19, 2014)

2biker said:


> You don't appreciate electricity until you have none. You don't buy a generator with the intention of running it at half load. True, here in southwestern CT, we don't get the extreme cold as our friends to the north. So spending $30 or $40 per day for gas during an outage is a lot cheaper then my friends who flee to a hotel. And to run a generator at a reduce load....what are you going to save? Two maybe three gallons a day? Who wants to spend their power outages living in one room around one heat source? If you take your time and execute your plan, an outage should be nothing more then the inconvenient sound of a running  generator.



There's a whole spectrum between "fleeing to a hotel" and "not noticing the power's out except for the sound". It's great that you've decided to be in the latter category and have the equipment to support it, but many are happy to just keep the basics running for the few days a year that the power is out.


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## F4jock (Dec 19, 2014)

Ya know, even though I understand the discussion it's making my head explode! About 25 years ago after the first extended power outage up here that left us with no utilities save for the phone,  we picked up a propane-fired 4 cylinder Renault powered, 17.5 Kw Onan with 36 hours on it that was sitting in a farmer's field. We had it refurbished and added an auto-start transfer switch. Since that time it's run as much as eight days at a time powering the entire house including, for the last seven years, our Harman Accentra  Insert with nary a hiccup. Although I appreciate the technical dissertations above I thus have no clue what all the fuss us about. Am I just lucky or has stove technology changed so much that a certain AC waveform is now necessary? I somehow can't see my rescued Onan as having an inverter conforming to any of the foregoing specifications.


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## alternativeheat (Dec 19, 2014)

F4jock said:


> Ya know, even though I understand the discussion it's making my head explode! About 25 years ago after the first extended power outage up here that left us with no utilities save for the phone,  we picked up a propane-fired 4 cylinder Renault powered, 17.5 Kw Onan with 36 hours on it that was sitting in a farmer's field. We had it refurbished and added an auto-start transfer switch. Since that time it's run as much as eight days at a time powering the entire house including, for the last seven years, our Harman Accentra  Insert with nary a hiccup. Although I appreciate the technical dissertations above I thus have no clue what all the fuss us about. Am I just lucky or has stove technology changed so much that a certain AC waveform is now necessary? I somehow can't see my rescued Onan as having an inverter conforming to any of the foregoing specifications.


Good question. Some people say about that some new electronically controlled stoves recognize dirty power and shut down. I can't confirm this with my own rig because I have my Gen wired to run the oil heat . It's not worth the bother for me to find out either.


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## TStark (Dec 19, 2014)

For an extended outage I just cycle the Gen now and then and use the oil for a few days. Screw the pellet stove. 20Gal gas would last a few weeks if the zombies came out.

didn't see the point of running a 5-8 HP genset continously just to operate a 250W (1/3HP)  stove.  
Unless one had to, of course.


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## novah (Dec 19, 2014)

<snip>  So when you take a UPS and plug it into a generator, the generator becomes the utility and it will continue to run off that power. Though I've read that some UPS units won't run properly off some generators. </snip>

I thought I had it nailed when I read about pure sine wave inverters. Then the snippet above got me looking at the UPS' and confusion is back. The last sentence seems like the word "some" should be changed to "most" or to "low end".

I keep reading posts on forums that say the units under $1000 don't change the form of the sine wave. They just "pass it through" so you get the same as what the generator is putting out - just like they pass the power company's power through as long as they are plugged into a live outlet.  For example:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/generator-ups-pellet-stove.64356/


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## chken (Dec 19, 2014)

novah said:


> <snip>  So when you take a UPS and plug it into a generator, the generator becomes the utility and it will continue to run off that power. Though I've read that some UPS units won't run properly off some generators. </snip>
> 
> I thought I had it nailed when I read about pure sine wave inverters. Then the snippet above got me looking at the UPS' and confusion is back. The last sentence seems like the word "some" should be changed to "most" or to "low end".
> 
> ...


Two waves. One wave is from your UPS to your stove. Mostly we've been talking about that wave, and whether you need pure sine, or modified, etc. The other wave is from the external generator. Many UPS can't tolerate the wave coming from the generator and won't recharge. That leads to a lot of beeping! I think that's the sentence you are referring to.

Most people start with the UPS to give them a safe way to shutdown their stove during an outage. Fewer people want to run their stove during an outage, but already have their stove hooked up to a UPS, so they add a gas or diesel or LP or NG generator connected to their electrical panel. And others have come up with their own creative solutions, like several batteries connected to a UPS to extend runtime, or using a small inverter generator like a Honda or Yamaha that they can also take camping. There are even those who have run their stove off their car batteries and hybrid batteries.


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## mchasal (Dec 19, 2014)

That's correct most UPS's don't do anything to the incoming power when it's there. 

What I meant when I was saying "some UPS units won't run properly" is that the UPS itself will have problems. Like it won't recognize the generator power as good power and won't charge or switch to it. Like I said, only something I've read about haven't run into it personally. See the thread starting here: Which UPS Battery Back Up?


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## novah (Dec 20, 2014)

After reading and reading, I have decided that the UPS is a combination of a battery and an inverter. The ones that clean up the harmonic distortions in the generator output - non inverter generator - are expensive so I made the following decision. 

I have a bass boat and it has two deep cycle batteries. Those batteries are in the house during the power outage "season" so I will use them in conjunction with a pure sine wave inverter. The inverter will run the pellet stove, computer and surround system. This one has roughly double what I figured I might use so I chose it for a factor of safety against over loading it and popping its breaker. It has a low voltage alarm to warn me it is getting close to battery change over time. As someone said in the thread I attached earlier, one battery charges off the generator while the other is in use. 

http://www.donrowe.com/KISAE-SW1220-Power-Inverter-p/sw1220.htm

I am on the same page as the people with the opinion of why run the pellet stove for a day or 2 of power outage but my stove is in my under the house, unheated garage that I converted into a work shop. When the temperature gets down near zero,, that area of the basement gets down around 30 degrees so I need to heat if to keep paints and other liquids from freezing.


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## St_Earl (Dec 20, 2014)

i saw someone suggest electric space heaters instead of running the pellet stove.
to me, that is just madness. space heaters are a huge draw on the generator and they only heat the air in close proximity to themselves.
whereas a pellet stove heats up everything. the walls, furniture, everything, for a nice saturated heat, "the soak."
turn off an electric space heater and the room goes cold almost instantly. not so with the pellet stove.

after start up, the draw goes way down. i can run my stove, my modem/32" lcd tv/pc monitor, desktop pc  some lights and the fridge *easily* with my 1800W portable inverter genny (2200 surge)
my pellet stove heats my entire home including the basement (45F minimum in the basement even at the coldest of times -15 -20) as during times when temps approach zero, i run a fan down through a passthrough vent that was here when we bought the house.

i can alternate usage by running the fridge intermittently, which is all it needs.

i have gas on hand kept with seafoam stabilizer and i use it at the end of summer in the car and freshen it up for the winter stash.
2 5 gallon cans and the 4 gallon tank on the genny (i drain the carb when the genny is not in use.) i also have lots of motor oil on hand.
if needed, i can drive to one of several neighboring towns for gas if by chance none of the three stations in town have power.
in my experience, and from what long time residents tell me, the outages here are never that long.
one person recalled a three day outage. but so far, a few hours is the longest i've seen here.

sorry if i missed other points in the discussion, i didn't read the whole thread.
but when it's cold and the power goes out, the pellet stove is the first thing i start off the genny.

lol. i only had to do that once in four seasons though.
i run the genny most often just to keep it in working order for if it's ever actually needed.


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## F4jock (Dec 20, 2014)

I am so glad that I was too stupid to worry about all this when I got my Harman and when the first occurrence of power outage came after it was installed. Genny auto-starts after eight seconds of no power, stabilizes and kicks over to power the entire house. Total power outage equals about thirty seconds. Apparently my Harman is also stupid as it runs fine and doesn't seem to worry about what waveform it's getting from my old Onan. I won't let either the Onan or the Harman read this thread 'cause maybe they'll suddenly realize that according to you all they probably shouldn't be working.  . . .


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## velvetfoot (Dec 20, 2014)

St_Earl said:


> 2000W portable inverter genny (2200 peak)


Hi.  Would you have a link for that generator?


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## F4jock (Dec 20, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Hi.  Would you have a link for that generator?


Nope. I got it out of a farmer's field about 25 years ago. He sold surplus and said it came from a hosiptal in Philly. Bought it with 36 hours on the meter. All I can tell you is that it is an Onan 17.6 KW propane-fired 4 cylinder Renault engine. So old it has points and a distributor. We added an auto-transfer switch. Thing is a work-horse. In hurricanes and blizzards it has run 24 hours a day for eight days straight keeping the entire house including well pump, dryer, oil burner, pellet stove, spa, computers, you name it, running. As I said above, sure glad I'm too stupid to worry about what waveform it's providing or to realize that I shouldn't let this happen. . . .


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## St_Earl (Dec 20, 2014)

i'm not sure who you are asking, so here's mine -
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200419022_200419022

and this is their new compact low noise and <1.5% harmonic distortion model. 200 fewer watts than mine though.
can be run in series as well. the only bad part of a review i found was the cover is difficult to get off the first few times. and it has to be removed for oil changes.
the powerhorse engines are good pieces of gear.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200623983_200623983?cm_mmc=Google-pla_with_promotion-_-Generators-_-Inverter Generators-_-42411&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=42411&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=42411&gclid=CJDu7oiG0sICFW3ItAodqCUAnQ

at close to half the price, i'm fine with mine.
and the 4 gallon tank should come in handy if i ever need to run it longer than a few hours.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 20, 2014)

F4jock said:


> I am so glad that I was too stupid to worry about all this when I got my Harman and when the first occurrence of power outage came after it was installed. Genny auto-starts after eight seconds of no power, stabilizes and kicks over to power the entire house. Total power outage equals about thirty seconds. Apparently my Harman is also stupid as it runs fine and doesn't seem to worry about what waveform it's getting from my old Onan. I won't let either the Onan or the Harman read this thread 'cause maybe they'll suddenly realize that according to you all they probably shouldn't be working.  . . .



If your stupid Harman were to see a modified sine wave it will shut down.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 20, 2014)

thanks
Looking at the link, it doesn't look like it's an inverter generator but that it has other stuff that keeps power quality high.


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## F4jock (Dec 20, 2014)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> If your stupid Harman were to see a modified sine wave it will shut down.


Shhhhh! Don't tell it 'cause in seven seasons and many generator runs it hasn't done that even once and I don't want it to start over-thinking and get uppity ideas


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 20, 2014)

St_Earl said:


> i'm not sure who you are asking, so here's mine -
> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200419022_200419022
> 
> and this is their new compact low noise and <1.5% harmonic distortion model. 200 fewer watts than mine though.
> ...



Your generator is NOT an inverter.  Although it seems to have very good specs regardless.  I would use it without worry


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## Bioburner (Dec 20, 2014)

F4jock said:


> Shhhhh! Don't tell it 'cause in seven seasons and many generator runs it hasn't done that even once and I don't want it to start over-thinking and get uppity ideas


I recently changed out the CB and now it will pulse the exhaust fan if the UPS kicks in. So some of your older boards aren't that smart.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 20, 2014)

F4jock said:


> Shhhhh! Don't tell it 'cause in seven seasons and many generator runs it hasn't done that even once and I don't want it to start over-thinking and get uppity ideas


Lol,  that's because you don't have a modified sine wave producing Genny.  My response was for others that may.


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## F4jock (Dec 20, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> I recently changed out the CB and now it will pulse the exhaust fan if the UPS kicks in. So some of your older boards aren't that smart.


We see no difference running on genny or normal power. Fan and pellet feed modulate, stove maintains room temperature. Shuts down and restarts fine. Only difference we see is that, since the genset is old we can't maintain an exact sixty cycles and the clocks run a bit fast.


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## F4jock (Dec 20, 2014)

IHATEPROPANE said:


> Lol,  that's because you don't have a modified sine wave producing Genny.  My response was for others that may.


Thank God I'm a Chem E / ME and not an EE!


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## St_Earl (Dec 20, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> thanks
> Looking at the link, it doesn't look like it's an inverter generator but that it has other stuff that keeps power quality high.





IHATEPROPANE said:


> Your generator is NOT an inverter.  Although it seems to have very good specs regardless.  I would use it without worry




T.I.L... 
thankfully i was looking at the distortion specs when i bought it.
*edits signature*


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## IHATEPROPANE (Dec 20, 2014)

St_Earl said:


> T.I.L...
> thankfully i was looking at the distortion specs when i bought it.



Yeah,  those are good Genny's. A friend has one and has only used it sparingly but has had no issues.  IMHO the pure sine  inverter generators real advantages come down to noise and efficiency.  But you pay up a lot for both of those.


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## St_Earl (Dec 20, 2014)

i think this must relate to what i have read about high quality whole house gennys being suitable for clean power applications even though they aren't necessarily (or even ever?) inverter units.


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## Wilbur Feral (Dec 21, 2014)

Probably the most PRACTICAL thing any reader desiring backup power (whether for shutdown only or for an extended period) can do is to:

1)  Make sure the generator and/or UPS you wish to use during outages can be returned if it does not meet your needs.
2) Immediately after purchase (within return period) hook it all up with your stove and whatever else you wish to run, and try it out to see how everything performs together - without utility power - preferably for several hours.
What you don't want is to be in the midst of a storm, experience an outage, and then decide it's a good time to test everything. Bad plan.

The LOWEST RISK thing any reader can do is to purchase a generator that states without question that it produces a pure sine wave, and power their stove from that.  Almost any UPS will recharge from such a generator, so sufficient wattage (VA, for a UPS) and run time are the only real concerns in that case.   All should still be tested as above. Anything less than this involves at least some risk because some stoves run well on non-sine wave power and some don't, and some UPS units recharge fine on non-sine wave power and some don't (and your situation may vary from others here, which is why you need to test it yourself).

Personally, and like a few others on here, I took an approach that involves a non-sine wave generator that powers my stove (and a few other critical items) through a UPS with modified batteries that delivers utility-grade power, with ability to boost or trim voltage and ability to recharge from a generator producing less-than-sine wave electricity (basically a modified wave with many small steps that makes it a bit more compatible with appliances, devices, etc.).  It works for me but took a fair amount of planning and a working knowledge of electicity, batteries, wire sizing, etc.  But I already owned that expensive UPS and then spent several hundred $ on batteries, so that approach is not for everyone.

Bottom line: Pick your approach within the boundaries of risk and cost, and realize that it's your rear end (and your family's) that will be freezing or comfortable when the power goes out, and that all the back and forth on here won't heat your house then, despite all the "hot air" we've generated on the subject.


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## seige101 (Dec 21, 2014)

F4jock said:


> Ya know, even though I understand the discussion it's making my head explode! About 25 years ago after the first extended power outage up here that left us with no utilities save for the phone,  we picked up a propane-fired 4 cylinder Renault powered, 17.5 Kw Onan with 36 hours on it that was sitting in a farmer's field. We had it refurbished and added an auto-start transfer switch. Since that time it's run as much as eight days at a time powering the entire house including, for the last seven years, our Harman Accentra  Insert with nary a hiccup. Although I appreciate the technical dissertations above I thus have no clue what all the fuss us about. Am I just lucky or has stove technology changed so much that a certain AC waveform is now necessary? I somehow can't see my rescued Onan as having an inverter conforming to any of the foregoing specifications.



That old iron beast you have will run longer than any modern POS out there. You say it was taken out of service from a hospital in another post so it might even be designed as 'premium' generator for it's time. Take care of it and it will run forever!

As far as wave form it is probably putting out pretty close to the utility grid.

Most modern contractor generators will produce 'dirty' power but this doesn't matter to contractors because their tools won't care. It only becomes an issue when trying to power sensitive electronics and the like. Don't even get me started on phase harmonics.


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## adam6979 (Dec 26, 2014)

Yes it has probably been said already but typically the old heavy generators will run damn near anything, but the newer small light weight ones use semiconductor chips instead of coil windings and they can produce crappy electricity. Just like those inverters that hook on your battery and give you 120V - the cheap ones work fine for non-motor driven items.... hookup a drill to them and you run the risk of burning out the drill. The heavy bad ass looking inverters though use different technology and run much cleaner. Exactly like the tiny light weight ChineseJunk Plasma cutters or  the heavy industrial thermodynamics... it is either semiconductors or transformer windings making it work - and believe me without spending serious money the transformer machines are the way to go.


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