# The clock is ticking on 30% federal solar credit



## peakbagger (Jan 25, 2019)

Unless extended, the 30% federal rebate is over at the end of 2019. The equipment has to be in service (which includes utility approval. There is still a credit in later years it just phases out. 26% in 2020, 22% in 2021 and then 10% thereon.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 27, 2019)

Good to know.. got mine installed this fall and will be enjoying my credit this april


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## peakbagger (Jan 27, 2019)

The chinese are claiming that the price of solar panels are not going to be dropping anymore and may increase in price as the excess manufacturing capacity has been taken care of. If the prices had kept dropping at the same rate, the reduced federal rebate next year would have been offset by the reduced cost of panels.


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## Snagdaddy (Jan 31, 2019)

Hopefully the solar/renewables/battery power fiasco is coming to an end.  If we don't maintain our fossil fuel lifeline we will suffer forever with interrupted service.


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## bholler (Feb 1, 2019)

Snagdaddy said:


> Hopefully the solar/renewables/battery power fiasco is coming to an end.  If we don't maintain our fossil fuel lifeline we will suffer forever with interrupted service.


Or we could continue to develop alternatives that will diversify our energy sources leading to less chance of interrupted service.


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## DBoon (Feb 2, 2019)

Snagdaddy said:


> Hopefully the solar/renewables/battery power fiasco is coming to an end. If we don't maintain our fossil fuel lifeline we will suffer forever with interrupted service.


Ha ha, yeah. Pretty funny. 

As long as you don't want to force everyone else to pay more for expensive fossil fuel electricity and outdated utility generation, transmission and distribution systems that fatten investor pockets but only deliver 1/3 of the BTUs the consume as fuel, I'm ok with whatever you personally want to spend your money on.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 2, 2019)

I am hoping to do solar at some point. I don't know when as we have many pressing house repairs. Can someone post a link to more details about the solar credit?


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## peakbagger (Feb 2, 2019)

The federal tax credit is important but far more important is how the utility treats grid tied solar. The governor and legislature of Maine up until recently has made solar unattractive in Maine. With the new governor and legislature things may change. Call your utility and find out how they deal with grid tied solar and how they pay for excess power generated that is sent to the grid. Generally net metering is the preferred method where excess power effectively "runs the meter backwards" with your excess generation and then when you need more power it just comes back through the meter. Some areas want to charge a fee for every KW your system sends to the gird and in some cases they even want a fee for every KW generated by your PV array even if you are using it. 

The solar tax credit is pretty simple, after you have applied all other rebates you get a tax credit of 30% of the value of the installed cost of the solar system. Note this is a tax credit not a deduction so even if you dont itemize you still get the credit against taxes owed. The only issue is to keep in mind is that you can only get a credit against tax owed. Someone on fixed income with no taxes may not owe enough taxes to get their money back. The credit carries forward to later years but it needs to be taken into account. One important thing to keep in mind is that the credit applies to the total installed cost. This is one of these "see your tax advisor" situations but many folks are claiming the credit for the cost of having to replace the underlying roof if its too old and others have claimed the replacement of  main panel as it does not have enough capacity. Note if someone elects to go overboard like claiming the entire cost of the roof where only one part is covered with panels its pushing it. Reportedly the IRS rarely audits these credits but its up to what you or your tax advisor is willing to support. Others have done pole mounts and included the cost to run the trench and conduit in the cost to install the system. They just a happened to drop a few spare conduits for other reasons.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 2, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> The federal tax credit is important but far more important is how the utility treats grid tied solar. The governor and legislature of Maine up until recently has made solar unattractive in Maine. With the new governor and legislature things may change. Call your utility and find out how they deal with grid tied solar and how they pay for excess power generated that is sent to the grid. Generally net metering is the preferred method where excess power effectively "runs the meter backwards" with your excess generation and then when you need more power it just comes back through the meter. Some areas want to charge a fee for every KW your system sends to the gird and in some cases they even want a fee for every KW generated by your PV array even if you are using it.
> 
> The solar tax credit is pretty simple, after you have applied all other rebates you get a tax credit of 30% of the value of the installed cost of the solar system. Note this is a tax credit not a deduction so even if you dont itemize you still get the credit against taxes owed. The only issue is to keep in mind is that you can only get a credit against tax owed. Someone on fixed income with no taxes may not owe enough taxes to get their money back. The credit carries forward to later years but it needs to be taken into account. One important thing to keep in mind is that the credit applies to the total installed cost. This is one of these "see your tax advisor" situations but many folks are claiming the credit for the cost of having to replace the underlying roof if its too old and others have claimed the replacement of  main panel as it does not have enough capacity. Note if someone elects to go overboard like claiming the entire cost of the roof where only one part is covered with panels its pushing it. Reportedly the IRS rarely audits these credits but its up to what you or your tax advisor is willing to support. Others have done pole mounts and included the cost to run the trench and conduit in the cost to install the system. They just a happened to drop a few spare conduits for other reasons.



I have read a little bit, probably here, about the issues with grid tied solar in Maine. I doubt the tax credit would benefit me at all due to my fixed income, as you mentioned. I highly doubt I have it in me to work enough to make the tax credit worth it. On the other hand I have cashed out some investments, federal tax withheld, this year and maybe it is worth it. I'll have to talk to the local tax prep office soon anyway.


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## begreen (Feb 2, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I am hoping to do solar at some point. I don't know when as we have many pressing house repairs. Can someone post a link to more details about the solar credit?


Check this site for info on Maine options.
https://www.energysage.com/solar-panels/solar-rebates-incentives/me/


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## Dobish (Feb 4, 2019)

I'm trying to take advantage of that credit to increase the size of my system. I will be adding 21 panels, paying for itself in 9 years based on the numbers for the low end production.


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## peakbagger (Feb 4, 2019)

I take it you have microinverters or optimizers?. Adding panels to string inverters is now a major PITA due to the rapid shutdown requirements and basically will be close to impossible if they go to the proposed standard of shutoff effectively at each panel barring someone coming up with an affordable remote cut  off option at the panel level which is one step away from an optimizer.


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## Dobish (Feb 4, 2019)

we will be doing microinverters on the system.


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## Bigger_Al (Feb 5, 2019)

My 20 panel ground mount system is going in right now as I type this. In Arkansas I’m grandfathered in at 20 years with 1 to 1 net metering. The utilities are trying to change the agreement with new legislation, but I’m getting in under the old system. Note you must have a tax liability to get the credit, but thought after 2021 it’s no longer available even at 10%?


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## CaptSpiff (Feb 5, 2019)

Bigger_Al said:


> View attachment 240278
> 
> My 20 panel ground mount system is going in right now as I type this. In Arkansas I’m grandfathered in at 20 years with 1 to 1 net metering. The utilities are trying to change the agreement with new legislation, but I’m getting in under the old system. Note you must have a tax liability to get the credit, but thought after 2021 it’s no longer available even at 10%?



What does "I’m grandfathered in at 20 years" mean?
Do you have a legally binding contract?
Or are you relying on a legislative stimulus program which can be revoked or changed by a new legislative agenda?

Besides that question, bully on you for going solar! I want to get an array up as well. But I believe the present "net metering" stimulus is on short life. Just make sure the array size makes sense for you (ie don't over build). I think the future of Electric Utility billing will break out many components and with Time Of Use Smart Meters coming every where, your solar array will be just another Power Producer paid at market rates. And that will be fair for everyone.


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## Bigger_Al (Feb 5, 2019)

CaptSpiff said:


> What does "I’m grandfathered in at 20 years" mean?
> Do you have a legally binding contract?
> Or are you relying on a legislative stimulus program which can be revoked or changed by a new legislative agenda?
> 
> Besides that question, bully on you for going solar! I want to get an array up as well. But I believe the present "net metering" stimulus is on short life. Just make sure the array size makes sense for you (ie don't over build). I think the future of Electric Utility billing will break out many components and with Time Of Use Smart Meters coming every where, your solar array will be just another Power Producer paid at market rates. And that will be fair for everyone.



What I meant is that the rate I sell 1 kw to the utility, they sell it back to me at the same rate. I looked up the governing agency wording here in Arkansas and it states that the agreement at the time of install remains in effect for 20 years from my install. A state commission set this standard some years back, but my understanding is that the commission is under pressure to change the net metering agreement at the request of the utility companies operating in Arkansas. I understand that everything is fluid and can change quickly with new legislation. I’ll have to revisit the agreement to see how binding it is or if they’ve written an “out” for future changes in the legislation. 

Would love for battery capacity and cost to be more consumer favorable in the future and be able to disconnect from a utility’s dependence. Maybe in 15 or 20 years from now things will look different.


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## semipro (Feb 5, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> rapid shutdown requirements


Anyone know if these requirements only apply to roof-mounted panels?  My understanding is that this requirement stems from safety concerns for fire fighters. It would seem that ground-mounted panels would negate this concern?


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## Bigger_Al (Feb 5, 2019)

Mine will have an auto disconnect if the power is lost from the utility. I’m doing a ground mount system.


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## peakbagger (Feb 6, 2019)

semipro said:


> Anyone know if these requirements only apply to roof-mounted panels?  My understanding is that this requirement stems from safety concerns for fire fighters. It would seem that ground-mounted panels would negate this concern?



I have lost my best authority on the subject, Home Power Code Corner, but believe that RSD only applies to building mounted systems which seem to be the most prevalent systems installed. It does make sense as rarely does a PV system burn in an of itself so its unlikely that a firefighter or other worker could come into contact with live wires while the system is generating. The biggest potential is a fireman on a roof during fire operations but its also possible that the cabling insulation could be physically damaged by things like abrasion, rodents, or damage inflicted by operations on the roof (like a chimney sweep or roofer walking on cables). Ground mount systems rarely burn in and of themselves and all cabling and components are supposed to be protected from access by casual contact.and require a "tool" to access them. Some local AHJs require fencing around the array and others think its required by NEC. My pole mount wiring is protected by galvanized hardware cloth within reach of the ground. In either case it is the intent that casual contact by untrained people is prevented so no rapid shutdown is required.

Ground mount systems do have their particular issues, I have seen several auctions of fire damaged solar panels from grass fires running under the panels. The backs of the panels are sooty and in some cases the cabling is damaged. I think its probably a bigger issue with large solar fields. They are practically giving away the panels as in many areas getting rid of large amounts of panels cost money as they are treated as special wastes.ground mounts also seem to be more impacted by objects thrown by lawnmowers.

I have seen various claims that some firefighters will stand back and "let it burn" if there are roof mounted panels due to potential for electrocution. When I installed my original array, I found a good on line training course for firefighters having to deal with solar systems and sent it to the local fire chief to use in their monthly training.


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## Brian26 (Feb 6, 2019)

Bigger_Al said:


> View attachment 240278
> 
> My 20 panel ground mount system is going in right now as I type this. In Arkansas I’m grandfathered in at 20 years with 1 to 1 net metering. The utilities are trying to change the agreement with new legislation, but I’m getting in under the old system. Note you must have a tax liability to get the credit, but thought after 2021 it’s no longer available even at 10%?



Just curious but with .09 kwh electricty cost in Arkansas your payback must be like 15+ years? Arkansas is ranked 3rd for the cheapest power in the US.

Here in New England the payback is usually 5-7 years with some of the most expensive electricity in the lower 48. Most of us are paying .21+ a kwh. Here in CT we pay the same as Alaska! Though we do have the some of best solar incentives. 

This is a great site to compare incentives and payback time.

https://www.solarpowerrocks.com/state-solar-power-rankings/

EIA electricity prices.

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a


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## Brian26 (Feb 6, 2019)

Here is a comparison of MA with Arkansas.


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## Bigger_Al (Feb 6, 2019)

Brian26 said:


> Just curious but with .09 kwh electricty cost in Arkansas your payback must be like 15+ years? Arkansas is ranked 3rd for the cheapest power in the US.
> 
> Here in New England the payback is usually 5-7 years with some of the most expensive electricity in the lower 48. Most of us are paying .21+ a kwh. Here in CT we pay the same as Alaska! Though we do have the some of best solar incentives.
> 
> ...



Yes, in fact 15 years is exactly the ROI on my system. I’m hoping it still operates a few years after that date!

Hey. We’re up 2 spots though.


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## Bigger_Al (Feb 6, 2019)

Brian26 said:


> Here is a comparison of MA with Arkansas.
> 
> View attachment 240336
> View attachment 240337



I wonder why Arkansas is a D rating in price if it’s cheaper than MA, which is an A?


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## Bigger_Al (Feb 6, 2019)

Okay, I now understand the price grading. It’s based on higher pricing being offset by solar.


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## Where2 (Feb 8, 2019)

Dobish said:


> I'm trying to take advantage of that credit to increase the size of my system. I will be adding 21 panels, paying for itself in 9 years based on the numbers for the low end production.


I'll be doing the same, this year. It took me 2 years of income to recover the last federal incentives back in 2013... FL has no state incentives, despite being nicknamed the "Sunshine State". The power companies tried (unsuccessfully) to make it more difficult to install solar in one of the last election cycles. They literally don't want competition for their own growing collection of 550 acre PV array farms...


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## SpaceBus (Feb 8, 2019)

Where2 said:


> I'll be doing the same, this year. It took me 2 years of income to recover the last federal incentives back in 2013... FL has no state incentives, despite being nicknamed the "Sunshine State". The power companies tried (unsuccessfully) to make it more difficult to install solar in one of the last election cycles. They literally don't want competition for their own growing collection of 550 acre PV array farms...



Maine is like this as well. I'm renovating my house this year and I'm considering having someone set me up with a solar system before the incentives are lowered. Maine offers no state incentives unfortunately and I'm not even sure if net metering is offered. I'm primarily interested because I want to be off grid because the local power company is terrible and the only option.


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## peakbagger (Feb 9, 2019)

My niece lives in a small town in Maine and volunteers at a food pantry. They have a walk in freezer and refrigerators and electric power is big cost to them. Having this capability means that they can accept more food when available and stretch out its benefits.When a new pantry building was built, someone familiar with solar on the board had the foresight to orient the building for solar. They had funding for half the cost of an array but the project had lagged for several years during the prior governors administration that was actively anti solar. Well the new governor is pro solar and one of her first acts was to come up with funding for the other half of the cost using donated or at least reduced cost labor by a contractor that needed to train a new crew and the pantry now has a substantially reduced power bill. They are non profit so the tax credit didnt affect them but expect the overall decline in solar costs due to the tax credit indirectly benefited them. 

Realistically the barrier for solar has gotten quite low. With some planning once the racking and trunk cabling is in place on the roof, someone can start out with few a panels and microinverters and then buy additional ones (and take the credit) when they can afford them. The only hassle is that panel sizing and color varies so the resulting array may not look uniform if panels are bought over a period of years.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 9, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> My niece lives in a small town in Maine and volunteers at a food pantry. They have a walk in freezer and refrigerators and electric power is big cost to them. Having this capability means that they can accept more food when available and stretch out its benefits.When a new pantry building was built, someone familiar with solar on the board had the foresight to orient the building for solar. They had funding for half the cost of an array but the project had lagged for several years during the prior governors administration that was actively anti solar. Well the new governor is pro solar and one of her first acts was to come up with funding for the other half of the cost using donated or at least reduced cost labor by a contractor that needed to train a new crew and the pantry now has a substantially reduced power bill. They are non profit so the tax credit didnt affect them but expect the overall decline in solar costs due to the tax credit indirectly benefited them.
> 
> Realistically the barrier for solar has gotten quite low. With some planning once the racking and trunk cabling is in place on the roof, someone can start out with few a panels and microinverters and then buy additional ones (and take the credit) when they can afford them. The only hassle is that panel sizing and color varies so the resulting array may not look uniform if panels are bought over a period of years.



You bring up a great point with adding as budget allows, but I don't think our roof is a good base go a solar array in the first place. The short side of the roof faces south and its also steep. Our I think our setup will have to be on the ground, but that's fine as we are on a hill facing south. Worst case for a ground install we have to clear some trees. If there's enough money left after we finish the house  perhaps that will be the time


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## Where2 (Feb 9, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Maine is like this as well. I'm renovating my house this year and I'm considering having someone set me up with a solar system before the incentives are lowered. Maine offers no state incentives unfortunately and I'm not even sure if net metering is offered. I'm primarily interested because I want to be off grid because the local power company is terrible and the only option.



Maybe if the legislature moves on it, Maine will go back to a net metering system. (They used to have net metering) Last I read in the BDN or Portland paper, Maine net metering was currently dead, but the new legislature offered a glimmer of hope. We have property in "the County" (my wife was born in northern ME), and we'll put a PV array online up there as soon as something favorable happens with net metering. Not because we'll get any federal incentives for it. Those only apply to primary residences. We'll put a PV array on our property, because a PV array goes hand in hand with the 50 acres of forest out behind the house... It's peacefully quiet and powered by sunlight! (just like a forest)



peakbagger said:


> Realistically the barrier for solar has gotten quite low. With some planning once the racking and trunk cabling is in place on the roof, someone can start out with few a panels and microinverters and then buy additional ones (and take the credit) when they can afford them. The only hassle is that panel sizing and color varies so the resulting array may not look uniform if panels are bought over a period of years.



$0.53/W for panels with micro-inverters was the last bargain I saw (last week), so yes the barrier is much lower than my $1.39/W in 2013 for panels + inverters.

Yeah, I came up with that modular concept back in 2010 when my late father and I took a class on solar at my local community college. I likened it to Legos, because almost everyone understands their modular principle. I wrote it up for my final presentation. Unfortunately, in FL the permitting system is rigged so that you have to specify panels and inverters on day 1, which makes the modular system impossible for the average buyer. I envisioned people using their tax refunds or the savings from the array itself to add to their arrays over time. Alas, that concept is dead in FL, unless you can find someone to front the $$$ on day one to buy an entire set of panels, and rent them to you while you pay off the system.


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## peakbagger (Feb 10, 2019)

Where2 said:


> Maybe if the legislature moves on it, Maine will go back to a net metering system. (They used to have net metering) Last I read in the BDN or Portland paper, Maine net metering was currently dead, but the new legislature offered a glimmer of hope. We have property in "the County" (my wife was born in northern ME), and we'll put a PV array online up there as soon as something favorable happens with net metering. Not because we'll get any federal incentives for it. Those only apply to primary residences. We'll put a PV array on our property, because a PV array goes hand in hand with the 50 acres of forest out behind the house... It's peacefully quiet and powered by sunlight! (just like a forest)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have a former coworker in the Fort Kent area. He is an engineer that was stranded up there as he married a "county girl" and stayed. The power utility up there is odd in that its not connected to the ISO New England Grid, rather its treated as a "poor stepchild" off the Canadian Maritime Grid. My friend worked for some period with the town several years ago and his opinion of the utility then was that power was very expensive and they did the bare minimum to required by law to allow renewables. Not sure if its changed. The DSIRE site seems to show that net metering is still applicable  http://programs.dsireusa.org/system/program/detail/280 but its the type where the utility does not allow carry forward of credits on a yearly basis which tends to make it less attractive especially if they set the reset date January 1st as a solar user cannot take advantage of a summer surplus to carry them through the winter. My friend lives in town but has a large lot somehwre nearby with small offgrid setup.

I agree that the utility can make a phased in array a PITA but do not believe that they can prevent a customer from expanding an existing system as long as the original system is inspected, meets code and is approved. The concept I envision is buy standard racking and install a standard length of rail on the roof. Then buy a couple if panels with microinverters and a standard microinverter trunk cable and the gird interface box with blanking caps on the cable for the unused connections. The resultant mini system is complete and can be inspected and improved. Six months later when the owner buys more panels they will have to reapply to expand they system but its pretty well a rubber stamp application. The only issue I see is if the state has a solar allocation system where they only accept so many KW per year into a program. Obviously this can vary by state or utility but its worth looking into. The federal solar credit is still around but phases out over a couple of years and the owner I believe the owner can claim the credit for the additional panels once they are inspected and approved. To me the biggest risk is that the same panels are not available. They will still work but will look ugly I did a variation of this in NH over a 12 year period. I have three string type arrays that I built to three different code cycles that are treated as one system approval by the utility. They really do not care much about what is connected upstream of the actual inverters and list my system capacity as the total rated output of the inverters. I have 1 KW a 2KW and 3 KW string inverter so the utility only cares that I do not exceed 6 KW. I actually only have 4.6 KW of panels. My understanding is my utility approval covers the 6 KW so I can build out the system if practical without putting me in the newer net metering rate structure which is less attractive. If I did expand the system I would need it inspected and approved to the new code cycle and that is where I am in trouble as I would need to upgrade to the Rapid Disconnect System requirement but that is not an issue with microinverters or optimizers.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 10, 2019)

@peakbagger I am clearly not educated enough on solar to do it myself. Who would you recommend in the downeast area to contract this out to?


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## OT_Ducati (Feb 10, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> @peakbagger I am clearly not educated enough on solar to do it myself. Who would you recommend in the downeast area to contract this out to?


https://www.insourcerenewables.com/?utm_source=GMB&utm_medium=Organic
They did our grid tie system December 2017. They did a very good job.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 10, 2019)

OT_Ducati said:


> https://www.insourcerenew
> 
> 
> OT_Ducati said:
> ...



Are you the guy I heard screaming down Cutler road in November? Someone near me has a really nice sport bike, not sure what it is yet, and they ride it hard. Makes me miss my Yamaha... 

Their work looks nice and they offer grid tied with storage. How does net metering work in the real world in Maine? I have read both that net metering exists and it doesn't. My primary goal with solar is to reduce the cost of living, and I hate Emera. I liquidated some assets recently, so I will be able to take advantage of the tax credit. I just need to figure out if the cost is worth it. It's really too bad Maine doesn't offer any incentives for solar.


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## peakbagger (Feb 10, 2019)

Sorry you need to go more local to find out who is doing good installs in your area. 

Do not sell yourself short, microinverter based systems are basically plug and play. The only tricky spot is the tie into the main panel. If you have a 200 amp service it is not normally an issue but a bit trickier if you have something smaller. The folks at Alt E store in Mass will design a system for you and sell you a kit of all the parts. Odds are the local building inspector will want an electrician to do the final hookup. I did all three of mine completely solo. The tools required are  pretty minimal. The biggest PITA is rigging the panels up off the ground and onto the roof. I had to rig mine up on the second floor roof (lots of going up and down a ladder) and pulleys.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 10, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Sorry you need to go more local to find out who is doing good installs in your area.
> 
> Do not sell yourself short, microinverter based systems are basically plug and play. The only tricky spot is the tie into the main panel. If you have a 200 amp service it is not normally an issue but a bit trickier if you have something smaller. The folks at Alt E store in Mass will design a system for you and sell you a kit of all the parts. Odds are the local building inspector will want an electrician to do the final hookup. I did all three of mine completely solo. The tools required are  pretty minimal. The biggest PITA is rigging the panels up off the ground and onto the roof. I had to rig mine up on the second floor roof (lots of going up and down a ladder) and pulleys.



Eh, I'm a total novice to electrical outside of installing speakers in a car that doesn't require more than a few splices. I don't think my wife would trust anything I install. If I pay someone else they will pull the permits and hook it up. For most things in my life I would rather do them myself, but electrical is one area I don't like to deal with.

Did your property taxes increase.after your install?


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## Where2 (Feb 10, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> I have a former coworker in the Fort Kent area. He is an engineer that was stranded up there as he married a "county girl" and stayed. The power utility up there is odd in that its not connected to the ISO New England Grid, rather its treated as a "poor stepchild" off the Canadian Maritime Grid. My friend worked for some period with the town several years ago and his opinion of the utility then was that power was very expensive and they did the bare minimum to required by law to allow renewables. Not sure if its changed.



"County Girl's" are beautiful can't fault your friend there.  Fort Kent is the north end of "the county", we're down at the south end of the county still on Emera's grid (Maine Public Region). Emera's map shows your friend and I are technically both on the same provider. I'm sure it will be interesting to do the interconnect. When I spoke to the folks at the town office before we bought our place (technically we're in town), I specifically asked what I'd need pull permits on to update the place myself. Town said: _Plumbing_. I asked: "Anything else?" Town said: "No, we're pretty laid back around here." That was great news! I almost need a permit to paint the outside of the house in FL. Obviously, to tie into Emera, I'll discuss my array with them, but considering I needed my three line diagram blessed, certified, and approved by the state of FL to pull a local permit to install my array in FL, I think Emera will have all their answers when I send them a three line drawing. On my three line drawing for FL, I showed everything between the meter and the array panels with manufacturer, model, and wire size notations. I generate the drawings in Autocad, and it looks like I do this sort of stuff for a living, because I draw in Autocad creating electrical single line drawings for a living. My drawings don't leave much up to the imagination, and they're in color to make them easy to follow. Our house is the only connection to the nearest Emera transformer, it hangs on the nearest pole in front of the house (with a nice 60Hz hum 24/7). If it can handle my 5400W electric dryer, my 20kbtu 220V A/C unit and my wall oven simultaneously, it can handle the twenty microinverters I want to plug in... They don't put out more than 1A each, unless it's really cold and I'm getting good reflection from snow, then they might peak at 225W, but that's all an M215 will do, they flat line at 225W output. 

My wife would move back to "the county" in a heartbeat. I'm content with the 73° temps we have outside right now in FL. We discussed this concern prior to ever getting engaged. 

I'm certain the town will expect a tax value increase for the property when the PV array goes in... I'm sure they noticed the person in my town who has a wind generator on their lot in town too. You can't really hide it, and like the sign on the wall at the local restaurant says "Even if you don't know what you're doing, in a small town your neighbors probably do!"   We're on one of the main roads leading out of town. If I drop an 18" orange traffic cone in my front yard, I'm sure people in town will start chatting "What's that Florida couple doing with that orange cone?"


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## SpaceBus (Feb 10, 2019)

Where2 said:


> "County Girl's" are beautiful can't fault your friend there.  Fort Kent is the north end of "the county", we're down at the south end of the county still on Emera's grid (Maine Public Region). Emera's map shows your friend and I are technically both on the same provider. I'm sure it will be interesting to do the interconnect. When I spoke to the folks at the town office before we bought our place (technically we're in town), I specifically asked what I'd need pull permits on to update the place myself. Town said: _Plumbing_. I asked: "Anything else?" Town said: "No, we're pretty laid back around here." That was great news! I almost need a permit to paint the outside of the house in FL. Obviously, to tie into Emera, I'll discuss my array with them, but considering I needed my three line diagram blessed, certified, and approved by the state of FL to pull a local permit to install my array in FL, I think Emera will have all their answers when I send them a three line drawing. On my three line drawing for FL, I showed everything between the meter and the array panels with manufacturer, model, and wire size notations. I generate the drawings in Autocad, and it looks like I do this sort of stuff for a living, because I draw in Autocad creating electrical single line drawings for a living. My drawings don't leave much up to the imagination, and they're in color to make them easy to follow. Our house is the only connection to the nearest Emera transformer, it hangs on the nearest pole in front of the house (with a nice 60Hz hum 24/7). If it can handle my 5400W electric dryer, my 20kbtu 220V A/C unit and my wall oven simultaneously, it can handle the twenty microinverters I want to plug in... They don't put out more than 1A each, unless it's really cold and I'm getting good reflection from snow, then they might peak at 225W, but that's all an M215 will do, they flat line at 225W output.
> 
> My wife would move back to "the county" in a heartbeat. I'm content with the 73° temps we have outside right now in FL. We discussed this concern prior to ever getting engaged.
> 
> I'm certain the town will expect a tax value increase for the property when the PV array goes in... I'm sure they noticed the person in my town who has a wind generator on their lot in town too. You can't really hide it, and like the sign on the wall at the local restaurant says "Even if you don't know what you're doing, in a small town your neighbors probably do!"   We're on one of the main roads leading out of town. If I drop an 18" orange traffic cone in my front yard, I'm sure people in town will start chatting "What's that Florida couple doing with that orange cone?"



There's a house with a wind generator and what appears to be a solar water heater on the roof not far down the road. I've always wanted to ask them how much electricity their wind mill generates.


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## peakbagger (Feb 11, 2019)

Oh yes there are some fine county girls up there . Maine technically requires all new building construction to be inspected to IBC but many small towns and the unorganized townships ignore the law. There was legislation several year ago to force the issue using paid independent inspectors but it was real impractical. I think I saw a short form interconnect application for systems less than 25 KW on the Emera website. Generally the utility could care less of what equipment is connected up to the inverter as long as they know what inverter is installed, if its UL 1741 complaint and the nameplate rating.Some require a sign off by an electrician. I dont think there is a viable SREC market in Maine but in NH I had to have a electrician sign off to sell SRECS.   

As for taxes on renewable equipment it varies by jurisdiction. In theory tax value is supposed to be based on the actual value of the property based on what a willing seller would pay to willing buyer. The appraisal is supposed to be based on comparable sales in a comparable market. In my area the appraisers have not statistically established that PV adds value to house and some argue it detracts from the value so solar is not taxed. Realistically, in my area property taxes are high and the actual value of power generated by my panels is not a lot, if they hit me with a significant increase in value on my property raising my taxes, it may make economic sense to remove the panels.Taxes vary significantly from town to town in NH so maybe its motivation to build a house on my wood lot in the town next to me which has a tax rate that is 2/3rd lower (no services to speak of) and more importantly not a lot of kids to educate.


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## Gunfixr (Feb 11, 2019)

I want to add solar here at some point. As there is a regular good wind here, maybe that as well.
For now, it'll have to wait.


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## peakbagger (Feb 11, 2019)

Gunfixr said:


> I want to add solar here at some point. As there is a regular good wind here, maybe that as well.
> For now, it'll have to wait.


Before you hold off check with your utility some of the offer very good incentives. We helped up someone on this forum a few years ago in I believe NC by the time he got all his incentives added up he paid for more than half plus got limited backup power when the utility was down. Check this website to see what may apply http://www.dsireusa.org/


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## Where2 (Feb 11, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> There's a house with ... what appears to be a solar water heater on the roof not far down the road.



Funny you say that, a few years back I picked up a solar thermal panel on Craigslist for free that we already transported to Maine. I've got a list of friends who want them if I find more... The previous owner in Florida had just installed a new standing seam metal roof, and didn't want the potential liability of punching holes in the new roof to reinstall the solar thermal panel. When I was picking it up and said I was going to take it to Maine, his head tilted sideways like: _What_?? I intend to set it up as a drain back system to add thermal energy to a heat bank tank setup to temper the 47° summer ground water. Using it to actually heat water to bathing temps seems like overkill once get the PV array installed. Using a free panel to collect thermal energy and boost the water temps so my electric tankless hot water heater won't have to work so hard sounds like a more reliable use for my free panel. It's not quite as reliable as using a PV panel to heat the heat bank tank, but I can't seem to find PV panels for free...



peakbagger said:


> Maine technically requires all new building construction to be inspected to IBC but many small towns and the unorganized townships ignore the law. There was legislation several year ago to force the issue using paid independent inspectors but it was real impractical. I think I saw a short form interconnect application for systems less than 25 KW on the Emera website. Generally the utility could care less of what equipment is connected up to the inverter as long as they know what inverter is installed, if its UL 1741 complaint and the nameplate rating.Some require a sign off by an electrician. I don't think there is a viable SREC market in Maine.



Yeah, the number of residents in the town we're in is twice the number of students in my graduating class from high school. I remember reading a BDN article about the concept of using "paid IBC inspectors" to review finished construction in the north woods. I'm sure the locals had $0.02 about that, especially the guys in the construction trades. 

The Enphase M215 inverters my systems will all use are UL1741 compliant. When I tell people I have a PV array, everyone seems to assume I have power when the grid goes down. *No*, I have a 5,500W B&S gas generator just like all my neighbors for hurricane season. It was an investment of less than $1,000. that works when I need it to, very reliably!  When a storm approaches, I flip the PV disconnect breakers, shut down the inverters and isolate the PV system components from the crazy spikes that happen as trees sway into the wires and short circuit the grid. It's easier to drain the gas out of a generator and buy new gas when a storm is approaching than it is to maintain batteries year round for 10+ years between storms, especially now that I installed a float bowl with a drain plug in the generator carburetor. (perfect use for a chinese copy-cat carburetor). If net metering ever goes away, I'll reconsider a battery system to be able to store energy on site and island myself.


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## peakbagger (Feb 12, 2019)

Smart way to go, I have the same setup, the inverters dump the PV when the power line gets dirty or goes out and I have a generator in the garage if its going to be long one. No way do I want batteries unless there is ongoing incentives to dispatch them to the grid so I have a way of paying for them and their eventual replacement.  

There is a utility in VT and now one in NH that is doing that with Tesla batteries, they lease or sell the batteries at a low cost to homeowners but retain the right to "borrow" some power during peak power demand periods. In theory its cheaper to dispatch a fleet of batteries then starting up a peaker power plant for short term demand. They can also financially encourage folks to load shift from high demand periods to low demand periods by going with different rates at different demand periods. Efficiency VT used to install a set of red green and yellow lights in prominent areas of commercial buildings, When the lights are green the power is cheap, yellow its getting expensive and red means they are paying for peak power.

The other new technology with solar is a new UL standard for grid tied nverters. The standard for years was UL 1741. A 1741 inverter looked at the gird and if the grid was out of a very tight spec or not there, the PV system would shut down and wait 5 minutes once the grid stabilized. This was intended to protect linemen from a PV system putting power into a dead grid. The problem is that when there is lot of renewables on the grid like Hawaii, a minor voltage or frequency dip in the grid meant all the PV systems would drop off the grid causing a much bigger problem. The utility would need to start up a generator and once the grid was stable all the PV would come back on line causing another big spike and this could bounce around for awhile. The new UL 1417 SA inverters that are now being required on commercial installations in Mass and CA and I think on all installations in Hawaii, do a couple of things to help the grid. The grid detection range is lot wider so if the grid goes out of spec the inverter automatically tries to help out the grid to stabilize it. The other feature is that the utility can communicate directly to the inverter and ask it to proactively shape its output for voltage and frequency support.

For now if someone thinks they need backup power, SMA offers string inverters that have a small backup power option if the grid goes out. A 15 Amp outlet can be wired to the inverter and if the grid goes out but the sun is out the outlet will be live. Not good for running a house but good to charge a cell phone. There are no batteries so anytime there is not enough sun, the outlet stops working. 

There are couple of big grid sized batteries in Maine. I think the old oil fired station in Yarmouth has a large battery installation and I think there is one in  somewhere along the coast in tourist town where the power demand during the day is very high and low at night so the utility charges up the batteries during the night and then dispatches them during the day to take care of peaks so they do not need to install new power lines just to deal with short term spikes. Mass is subsidizing a lot to big grid batteries at health care facilities. Its a brave new world on the grid, unfortunately the easy way to pay for it is to stick in on the retail customer on the basic line charge. The sad joke in Mass is if you dont pay to put PV on your roof you are paying to put it on your neighbors roof via increase rates.


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## OT_Ducati (Feb 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Are you the guy I heard screaming down Cutler road in November? Someone near me has a really nice sport bike, not sure what it is yet, and they ride it hard. Makes me miss my Yamaha...
> 
> Their work looks nice and they offer grid tied with storage. How does net metering work in the real world in Maine? I have read both that net metering exists and it doesn't. My primary goal with solar is to reduce the cost of living, and I hate Emera. I liquidated some assets recently, so I will be able to take advantage of the tax credit. I just need to figure out if the cost is worth it. It's really too bad Maine doesn't offer any incentives for solar.


Not me. I'm in Bangor area.
Credit year from January to December, use what you make.
[They will size your system according to your load.]


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