# Wood insert (and problems) came with the house



## stamello (Nov 14, 2012)

We bought an old leaky 2500 sq ft farmhouse in Tennessee. It doesn't get too cold, but the house is leaky enough that we need heat from Nov - March. No gas available so we have expensive electric heat and I'd like to start heating the front of the house (around 2000 sq feet) with wood.

The house has a fireplace and an insert. The insert only takes 16" logs. I filled it up with dry oak and burned it as hot as I could, but it only heat up the front two rooms. There was no blower on the insert, but it seemed fairly modern.

I called a fireplace inspector who was advertising on craigslist. After looking at the chimney he said we needed to pull the insert out and repipe it. However, someone had installed decorative stone over the edges of the fireplace insert, so we had to break the stone off to even get at the unit. Once we pulled it out, we saw that the 8" pipe coming out of the unit had rusted and part of it had fallen.

The guy then pulled all the old pipe out. He noted that the chimney had been extended - the bottom was a 1920s brick chimney, but the top 12 feet or so were tiled (from the history of the house the top portion was probably built in the early 1980s). He also said that the insert would heat the house fine, but it would be better off not as an insert, but as a hearth stove.

So he went to the hardware store and bought black stovepipe. He placed the insert (now stove) on the hearth, ran the stovepipe out of the insert at a 45 degree angle through the fireplace up the chimney and presumably into the portion of the chimney that is tiled. The stovepipe does not continue through the tiled portion of the chimney.

After he left, I lit a fire and got it as hot as I could. Still only heating the front two rooms. I bought a blower and rigged it up - it blew nice warm air, but it still only heat the front two rooms.

Then I thought that maybe I needed to fill up the fireplace more in order to burn hotter, so I put an extra log in. I shut the fireplace door too firmly and cracked the glass on the front. A piece of glass fell out.

Then I noticed that the new 8" pipe connected to the stove was getting red hot, and also that wisps of smoke were coming out of the connection. I don't know much about how it's supposed to work, but that didn't seem right - especially because there was creosote on the old portion of the chimney that seems like it could light up if it got too hot...

So I let the thing burn out and am reassessing the setup.

I have at least two problems: first - I think that my fireplace insert is undersized for my leaky house. The fireplace is way bigger than the insert I have now, so I'd like to buy a bigger used one and would appreciate any tips. There are a few used inserts available near me - one is called a 'Nickerson' and made by 'Granddad Nickerson Stoves'. It looks to be big, heavy, clean, and has a blower, but I'm sure that there are other considerations that I need to look for.

My second problem is with the installation method that the chimney guy used - does it sound like he did it right, or do I need to start from scratch on the installation?

Any advice would be appreciated.

(edited to include pics of installation)


----------



## begreen (Nov 14, 2012)

First problem -


> I called a fireplace inspector who was advertising on craigslist.


 
It sounds like you may have received some bum advice. Hope he didn't charge too much for it. You need a certified sweep to do this work.

Can you post some pictures of the current setup? We need to see how safe (or not) it is. And if you can post a rough sketch of the floorplan we may be able to help you out with some heat circulation ideas.

PS: Welcome to hearth.com!


----------



## mellow (Nov 14, 2012)

You will need to redo the whole setup,  black stove pipe is not to be used IN a chimney.

Can you get us some pictures of the fireplace and existing hearth?   That will get us started in the right direction.


----------



## stamello (Nov 14, 2012)

begreen said:


> First problem -
> 
> 
> It sounds like you may have received some bum advice. Hope he didn't charge too much for it. You need a certified sweep to do this work.
> ...


 
That's what I figured. I'll take some pictures when I get home tonight. Do you need pictures of the inside of the chimney?

The floorplan seems pretty good for heating: I attached a file which shows the generally layout (though the scale is off). There is a second story fairly open den above the living room, dining room, kitchen, bed 2, bath 1, bed 1. Open staircase to second story. Ideally I'd like to heat the living room, dining room, kitchen, bed 1, bed 2 and second story with wood.


----------



## stamello (Nov 14, 2012)

Whoops, it looks like the file didn't upload. I'll try again...


----------



## begreen (Nov 14, 2012)

I don't think pictures of the inside of the chimney are necessary at this stage, but if you have them, no problem. Flue pictures are helpful, but not the same as a good full examination of the chimney with trained eyes. From the description it sounds like an insulated liner is in order. This is best determined by a certified sweep. Pictures of the stove and current installation will be very helpful in bringing us up to speed on the current installation.

The file didn't post for some reason. Maybe it is in a format that is not accepted? Can you post it as a pdf or as an image file (png or jpg)?


----------



## Ashful (Nov 14, 2012)

The pipe got red hot because of the broken glass, which caused the stove to overfire.  You probably noticed the fire raging like a forge.  The same thing also happens when you burn with a door partially ajar, instead of fully open or fully closed.

As mentioned, black pipe is not for use in a chimney, but are you sure this is what he used?  I've seen a situation similar to yours, where a block-off plate was installed at the bottom of the clay tile portion, and a connector pipe run up to the block-off plate.  In that particular case, it was debatable whether the black pipe was in the smoke chamber or "chimney".  It may be acceptable for him to run a liner up to the clay tile portion, and then transition from liner to stove pipe down in the fireplace, which may be exactly what he did.


----------



## stamello (Nov 14, 2012)

Yes, he used black pipe. He bought 4 3' sections of 8" black pipe and a rotating elbow. He didn't have any other supplies. I'm not sure how he connected it to the clay tile portion.


----------



## mellow (Nov 14, 2012)

stamello said:


> I'm not sure how he connected it to the clay tile portion.


 
Im quite sure it is not connected to anything in the chimney,  most of the weight is probably on the 90 which is making the rest of the pipe pop out hence why you saw smoke come out.


----------



## stamello (Nov 14, 2012)

begreen said:


> I don't think pictures of the inside of the chimney are necessary at this stage, but if you have them, no problem. Flue pictures are helpful, but not the same as a good full examination of the chimney with trained eyes. From the description it sounds like an insulated liner is in order. This is best determined by a certified sweep. Pictures of the stove and current installation will be very helpful in bringing us up to speed on the current installation.
> 
> The file didn't post for some reason. Maybe it is in a format that is not accepted? Can you post it as a pdf or as an image file (png or jpg)?


  I'm having trouble uploading it - I'll post it and the pictures tonight from my other computer.


----------



## stamello (Nov 14, 2012)

stamello said:


> I'm having trouble uploading it - I'll post it and the pictures tonight from my other computer.


Pics of installation. Front, side, connection, and up chimney.
Size of fireplace is 32 wide, 28 tall, 18 deep. Insert is smaller...


----------



## stamello (Nov 15, 2012)

stamello said:


> Pics of installation. Front, side, connection, and up chimney.
> Size of fireplace is 32 wide, 28 tall, 18 deep. Insert is smaller...


 
Bump. Any advice appreciated.


----------



## begreen (Nov 15, 2012)

Well, the good news is that you have a decent model insert. I think that is an Avalon Rainier-45. The bad news is that it was installed improperly to start with and his "improvement" is not much better. You need a professional chimney sweep to clean the flue, then install a proper, insulated stainless steel liner. I would also have them install a damper sealing block off plate to improve stove performance. Instructions are on page 20 of the stove manual. It will help keep the heat around the stove. There is an optional blower kit for this stove that would improve heat output and circulation. It's pricey though, costs about $300.

To find a professional chimney sweep go to one of these sites and type in your zip code:
http://www.ncsg.org/ or http://www.csia.org/ It's fine to ask for local references.

Stove manual: http://avalonfirestyles.com/TravisDocs/100-01140.pdf
Hearth.com article on block-off plate benefits and installation: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Why_damper_seal_is_needed/


----------



## stamello (Nov 15, 2012)

When I look up the Rainier it shows that it is intended for 800-1800 sq feet. I'd like to heat 1500-2000 in a leaky house.... If I have this reinstalled as an insert (not hearth stove) am I going to be disappointed?


----------



## KaptJaq (Nov 15, 2012)

stamello said:


> When I look up the Rainier it shows that it is intended for 800-1800 sq feet. I'd like to heat 1500-2000 in a leaky house.... If I have this reinstalled as an insert (not hearth stove) am I going to be disappointed?


 
A stove install will throw more heat than an insert install. With the insert install you will definitely need the blower kit. Decide which you want. The main thing you have to do is get your flue up to code, insulated SS liner and block-off plate would probably be best. Both can be DIY projects, kits are available on-line. Get a certified sweep to check out the existing masonry flue to make sure it is sound and then ask here for advice on how to proceed.

While it is rated for up to 1800 sf you are not in the coldest of climates. I would consider some insulation around the house to reduce the drafts and then that stove will probably be enough.

There are also places on-line to order replacement viewing window material...

KaptJaq


----------



## mellow (Nov 15, 2012)

stamello said:


> am I going to be disappointed?


 
I think you will be.  If you ask me that spot is begging for a free standing rear vented stove.


----------



## mellow (Nov 15, 2012)

Btw, if you keep that insert you need to change the door gasket and/or fix your lever.


----------



## begreen (Nov 15, 2012)

Where are you located? The stove may be fine if you are in a milder climate, but undersized if you are in New England.The main thing you will gain from a larger stove would be longer burn time.

With a blower and a block off plate I think you will note a significant improvement in heat output.The Rainier is a good performer.

I think the other issues - some rooms not getting warm and a leaky house are not necessarily an issue with the stove. I would invest in sealing up the leaks first. Caulking is cheap and very effective. If you can post a sketch of the floorplan we can see if there's an inexpensive way to improve heat circulation.

Question: How dry is the wood you are burning? When was it split and stacked? Do you know what species of wood it is?

PS: I meant to mention this earlier, this stove takes a 6" liner.


----------



## stamello (Nov 15, 2012)

mellow said:


> I think you will be.  If you ask me that spot is begging for a free standing rear vented stove.


Are you suggesting that this insert be installed as a freestanding stove, or should I get another one?


----------



## stamello (Nov 15, 2012)

begreen said:


> Where are you located? The stove may be fine if you are in a milder climate, but undersized if you are in New England.The main thing you will gain from a larger stove would be longer burn time.
> 
> With a blower and a block off plate I think you will note a significant improvement in heat output.The Rainier is a good performer.
> 
> ...


I'm near Chattanooga TN.
What is a blockoff plate? Will a certified sweep be able to help me with this?
The wood is oak that was split and sracked 2 years ago. It was stored in a dry barn.
Is the liner the same thing as the pipe? It looks like it has an 8" connection on a 45 degree angle out the back. The 8" pipe fit right into it.


----------



## stamello (Nov 15, 2012)

mellow said:


> Btw, if you keep that insert you need to change the door gasket and/or fix your lever.


Is the gasket the rope-like material surrounding the glass? I'm guessing that I could change that when replacing the glass?
And the lever just needs a wooden knob, right?


----------



## begreen (Nov 15, 2012)

Great, the wood sounds like it's good. You're in a milder climate, the stove size should be ok.

Click on the link provided previously for an explanation of a damper-sealing block off plate. Yes a certified sweep can do this. The liner is stainless steel and continuous all the way up to the top of the chimney. According to the manual, this stove takes 6" pipe.

The "glass" is actually a ceramic. It needs to be replaced with ceramic glass designed for high heat. . If local stove shop can't help, call around to local glass shops and ask if they sell Pyroceram, Neoceram or Robax ceramic glass. If you can't find this locally there is a good online seller at: www.onedayglass.com.

PS: It looks like the closest Avalon dealer is:
*Fine's Gas Appliance Inc.*
2777 Lafayette Road
Ft Oglethorpe, GA 30742
(706) 866-8290
john@finesgas.com


----------



## madison (Nov 15, 2012)

First off: Welcome to the forum.

IMHO:  Since the stone on the hearth is already been partially demolished.  I would consider all options within your budget.  Depending on your budget, family warmth demands, fire safety to name a few - you could go many directions.  Larger unit - freestanding or insert (with a blower).  But first the chimney needs to be addressed.   Different stoves/inserts have various chimney diameter requirements, so research and an accurate plan is mandatory before you spend another nickel.

Again, this is my personal opinion/advice


----------



## stamello (Nov 15, 2012)

madison said:


> First off: Welcome to the forum.
> 
> IMHO:  Since the stone on the hearth is already been partially demolished.  I would consider all options within your budget.  Depending on your budget, family warmth demands, fire safety to name a few - you could go many directions.  Larger unit - freestanding or insert (with a blower).  But first the chimney needs to be addressed.   Different stoves/inserts have various chimney diameter requirements, so research and an accurate plan is mandatory before you spend another nickel.
> 
> Again, this is my personal opinion/advice



OK. I'm planning on calling Sootbusters of Chattanooga to come and work on the chimney and advise me on further work.


----------



## Ashful (Nov 15, 2012)

Keep us posted!  As with any forum, you'll get some bum advice (I've been known to dish some out myself), but the combined knowledge here extends well beyond the expertise of any single chimney sweep.

Good luck!


----------



## murinsky (Nov 16, 2012)

begreen said:


> Well, the good news is that you have a decent model insert. I think that is an Avalon Rainier-45.


 
Yep I can confirm this. I have the Rainier 90. It is called the 45 because of the angle of the back/top where the flue exits. On the 90, it comes straight out the top.

This is a great insert and I love mine. Avalon does make a blower for it, although mine came without and still heats 1250 sq ft of a partially-reinsulated/partially replaced windows 1950's ranch. I plan to add the blower soon. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to post the link directly, but here is the link to the owners manual: http://avalonfirestyles.com/TravisDocs/100-01140.pdf

I noticed from the pictures that I can't see the handle for the air control. It should be under the ash shelf on the bottom of the stove. I can't tell if it's missing or just hidden out of view from the angle of the picture, but there should be something there. Pushed in = more air, pulled out = less air. Of course the glass is the main concern now, but you wouldn't want to use the stove without air control either.

The issues with the install are indeed numerous and have been pretty well covered already. The advice you will get on this forum is the best there is.


----------



## dave_376 (Nov 16, 2012)

I would look for a new stove. I see around 500 just to get that stove back to running condition.  250-300 for the blower and 100 for the glass, how are the burn tubes? they are another 100.


----------



## stamello (Nov 16, 2012)

murinsky said:


> Yep I can confirm this. I have the Rainier 90. It is called the 45 because of the angle of the back/top where the flue exits. On the 90, it comes straight out the top.
> 
> This is a great insert and I love mine. Avalon does make a blower for it, although mine came without and still heats 1250 sq ft of a partially-reinsulated/partially replaced windows 1950's ranch. I plan to add the blower soon. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to post the link directly, but here is the link to the owners manual: http://avalonfirestyles.com/TravisDocs/100-01140.pdf
> 
> ...


Mine looks like this with the air control handle off to the lower right side (at least that's what I think it is):





Up is more air, down is less. but I could be wrong about that lever...
With this unit could I still have the blower without the legs? It looks like the blower attaches to the bottom of the unit, but mine sits right on the hearth.


----------



## dave_376 (Nov 16, 2012)

stamello said:


> Mine looks like this with the air control handle off to the lower right side (at least that's what I think it is):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
there are two different blowers for this stove. one is a bottom/back mount and the outer is a front mount. you would need the front mount, it mounts below the ash lip and blows into the rectangle openings and exhausts on the top of the stove.


----------



## Snotrocket (Nov 16, 2012)

I would be looking at a free standing stove with a hearth like that.

If that was my house I would put an Englander NC 30 sticking out from that fireplace and run a 6 inch liner up the chimney.

The whole thing will cost you less than $1500 and you won't have to worry about it. 

You should also get your money back from the ding bat who installed that stove pipe in your chimney and report him. He's going to burn somebody's house down.


----------



## stamello (Jul 28, 2013)

Well, this thread has been sitting for half a year because I'm not sure what to do. I had a chimney sweep come in. He took everything apart and ran a camera up with chimney. He confirmed that the bottom part of the chimney is old (1920s), and that the top part of the chimney was recently (1980s) added and has a clay tile liner. 
However, he also saw something that neither of us expected. At first I didn't believe him, so I climbed up the interior of the chimney to check it. There is a wooden beam running through the chimney between the 1920 and 1980 part. It's about 10 feet off the bottom of the fireplace. You can see it in the picture below. 
Now what? Can I run a liner in the chimney if it's got that beam there?


----------



## begreen (Jul 28, 2013)

Oy vey!


----------



## Ashful (Jul 28, 2013)

Hah... I think I need to go back and read this one carefully. I'm experiencing deja vous... or my worse nightmare.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 28, 2013)

Okay... read it all in detail. When I joined this forum, I was in the process of shopping around for a second wood stove, and was visiting various local dealers to check out the options. One local dealer, who just happened to be a Jotul / Hearthstone / Lopi shop, insisted my old house needed a "level 2" inspection before making plans to install anything. My house was built in the 1770's, and they had one installation years prior where a similar house caught fire, due to wooden beams penetrating the chimney, of which they were not aware.

For liability reasons, the stove shop doesn't do their own level 2 inspections, but they send a local chimney / masonry company out to do them. After a few reschedulings, it worked out that I was not able to be here on the morning of the inspection, but I was surprised to receive an inspection report stating there was a wood beam running thru my chimney. This was supposedly almost 30 feet up inside of the chimney, where like yours, my chimney transitioned from old work (1770's stone) to new work (1800's brick).

Many weeks of discussions, debates what to do, and many unanswered questions from me to the inspector, revealed that he never did the full camera probe work he told me he had done. More arguments over what I had paid for, and eventually some work on my own to put my self-lighted handheld camcorder up thru the chimney on a tree pruning pole, revealed that what this idiot inspector was citing as a wood beam was really red brick. I made them come back out, finally perform the camera inspection I had originally paid for, and confirm that there was indeed NO WOOD in my chimney.

Much ugliness, argument, accusations, and another bogus quote of $10k to install a liner into my chimney followed. However, I was able to work with another (honest) NFPA sweep, along with the liner manufacturer (Duravent), to get the job done safely, and for roughly 20% of what the first clown was trying to take from me.

Moral of the story... wood looks a lot like brick, and vice versa, particularly when covered in soot and out of arm's reach. Unless I can see it up close, stick an awl in it, etc., I wouldn't believe it.

Call around, and find a sweep with camera equipment for performing level 2 inspections!


----------



## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Jul 28, 2013)

Dam bud, I hope these great guys can help a nice person like you, I'm sorry that inherited these issues, good luck my man


----------



## dafattkidd (Jul 29, 2013)

Joful, that story is terrible.  Ugh. 

Stamello, I have to tell you the first thing I thought when I read your post was, "that's probably NOT a wood beam."  I can't see it from the picture, but I'd get in there and super confirm that before taking any majorly invasive steps.  I work in houses every day, and I've seen a lot of bogus crappy work, but the chances of that being a wood beam seem to be very slim.  See if you can get a high quality, professional sweep to investigate your chimney.


----------



## mellow (Jul 29, 2013)

I mentioned it in Joful's case when he thought he had wood,  check out supaflu.com and see if you have any dealers in your area,  have them come out and see what they think,  since they specialize in older chimneys I am sure they will have a solution,  or at least they could guide you to what others have done.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 29, 2013)

mellow said:


> I mentioned it in Joful's case when he thought he had wood, check out supaflu.com and see if you have any dealers in your area, have them come out and see what they think, since they specialize in older chimneys I am sure they will have a solution, or at least they could guide you to what others have done.


 

Not a bad suggestion, but first you need to confirm 100% whether or not that is really wood.  I will be floored if it is.  1980 is very recent, and I don't think wood was any more acceptable in a chimney then, than it is now.


----------



## stamello (Jul 29, 2013)

dafattkidd said:


> Joful, that story is terrible. Ugh.
> 
> Stamello, I have to tell you the first thing I thought when I read your post was, "that's probably NOT a wood beam." I can't see it from the picture, but I'd get in there and super confirm that before taking any majorly invasive steps. I work in houses every day, and I've seen a lot of bogus crappy work, but the chances of that being a wood beam seem to be very slim. See if you can get a high quality, professional sweep to investigate your chimney.


 I'll crawl up there and check again. Both the chimney sweep and I saw it as wood, but you're right - I'll doublecheck to make sure before I do anything else.


----------



## stamello (Jul 29, 2013)

mellow said:


> I mentioned it in Joful's case when he thought he had wood, check out supaflu.com and see if you have any dealers in your area, have them come out and see what they think, since they specialize in older chimneys I am sure they will have a solution, or at least they could guide you to what others have done.


I'll check them out - thanks


----------



## stamello (Jul 29, 2013)

So


Joful said:


> Okay... read it all in detail. When I joined this forum, I was in the process of shopping around for a second wood stove, and was visiting various local dealers to check out the options. One local dealer, who just happened to be a Jotul / Hearthstone / Lopi shop, insisted my old house needed a "level 2" inspection before making plans to install anything. My house was built in the 1770's, and they had one installation years prior where a similar house caught fire, due to wooden beams penetrating the chimney, of which they were not aware.
> 
> For liability reasons, the stove shop doesn't do their own level 2 inspections, but they send a local chimney / masonry company out to do them. After a few reschedulings, it worked out that I was not able to be here on the morning of the inspection, but I was surprised to receive an inspection report stating there was a wood beam running thru my chimney. This was supposedly almost feet up inside of the chimney, where like yours, my chimney transitioned from old work (1770's stone) to new work (1800's brick).
> 
> ...


 
Sorry for your experience. I'll crawl up there and check it again. I would be overjoyed if mine was red brick...


----------



## Ashful (Jul 29, 2013)

FWIW... I did call Supaflu last year, at mellow's suggestion. They indicated they could do nothing to help, in my case. Their definition of "wood in the chimney" was timbers touching the masonry outside of the actual flue, not wood physically inside of the flue.


----------



## begreen (Jul 29, 2013)

Joful's chimneys were the first thing that came to mind when you mentioned wood in there.  See if that 'wood' can be carved or sawed.


----------



## mellow (Jul 29, 2013)

Joful said:


> FWIW... I did call Supaflu last year, at mellow's suggestion. They indicated they could do nothing to help, in my case. Their definition of "wood in the chimney" was timbers touching the masonry outside of the actual flue, not wood physically inside of the flue.


 
Don't remember you posting that,  will have to keep that in mind.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 29, 2013)

I don't think I ever posted it, as I was a little confused by their response, and still not 100% of their take on it. It's worth giving them a call, but my take-away was that "wood in the chimney" meant built into the masonry of the stack, but not protruding into the flue.


----------



## mellow (Jul 29, 2013)

Guess I overestimated the insulation properties of the materials they use,  they talk it up like it is better than insulated stainless steel liners.


----------



## Foragefarmer (Jul 29, 2013)

If it is wood and is at the connection from the old to newer section of chimney, maybe it was blocking used by the masons and accidentally left in the chimney. In which case you should be able to get it out. Where is the chimney in the house? Could it really be a beam in the chimney? IE have you taken measurements and crawled around in the attic or whatnot to try to locate the beam outside the chimney?

A floor plan of the house would be interesting to see.


----------



## firefighterjake (Jul 29, 2013)

Chimney sweep/co-worker said he was cleaning a chimney once and found a propane gas line that the installer had run straight through the chimney for easy access . . . needless to say he told the homeowner that using the chimney as it was would not pass muster.


----------



## stamello (Jul 30, 2013)

Foragefarmer said:


> If it is wood and is at the connection from the old to newer section of chimney, maybe it was blocking used by the masons and accidentally left in the chimney. In which case you should be able to get it out. Where is the chimney in the house? Could it really be a beam in the chimney? IE have you taken measurements and crawled around in the attic or whatnot to try to locate the beam outside the chimney?
> 
> A floor plan of the house would be interesting to see.


 

Maybe it's blocking, but I don't want to cut it out before I know for sure.
The chimney was extended in the 80s when the second story was added to the house. The piece of wood seems to be in the right spot to be a part of the second story floor (I'm not saying it is, but the height of it is level with the second story floor). 
I need to crawl up there again and measure everything and drill into the piece...


----------



## mellow (Jul 30, 2013)

I would get one of those drill bits they use for fishing wire and see if you can drill into it from down below.  Lowes carry's them in the electrical aisle.


----------



## stamello (Jul 31, 2013)

Foragefarmer said:


> If it is wood and is at the connection from the old to newer section of chimney, maybe it was blocking used by the masons and accidentally left in the chimney. In which case you should be able to get it out.


I crawled up there again today. It's definitely wood - I could saw it, cut it, drill it, etc. Even after that I wanted to make sure, so I just pinched it with my pliers and it splintered wood grain. It's a 2x4 on its side. Modern milled size, so 1980s. It is not a part of the structure of the house - the chimney is on the outside of the house so it is only a part of the chimney. 
I think that you're right that it is was put there by the masons as part of the chimney blocking. It is right at the point where they extended the chimney, and it looks like they flattened the top of the old chimney, laid that 2x4 on it, and started laying cinder block at that point. From there on up the chimney is cinder block and clay liner. 
I'm not at all an expert, but when I got my head up there I didn't like the look of anything. the concrete work looked sloppy. A brick was missing on the interior side of the chimney, and I could see a small part of the back of my upstairs drywall! When I looked up into the cinder block portion of the chimney it just struck me as altogether sloppy.
What now? I think I can assume that the 2x4 was blocking for the masons as they extended the chimney. It's on the house side of the chimney, but not connected to the house. Should I just knock it out and hope nothing falls on me ? Then I need a liner from top to bottom?


----------



## Ashful (Jul 31, 2013)

stamello said:


> I could see a small part of the back of my upstairs drywall!
> 
> Should I just knock it out and hope nothing falls on me ? Then I need a liner from top to bottom?


 
Well, as for the 2x4... that's precisely what I'd do. However, "I could see a small part of the back of my upstairs drywall," may be a bigger problem.

Me? I'd give DuraVent a call, ask for Dale (their engineering support guy), and describe to him exactly what you have there. He is probably going to suggest putting a metal chimney product (eg. class-A chimney) inside of your chimney, rather than a liner product, but let him make the call.

If he's unable to get a clear picture of what you're describing, he may hesitate to make any specific recommendation.  That's when it's time to get a local pro involved, but since there's such a range of experience (and intelligence) among chimney sweeps, you'd do well to do back-up research on any recommendation they make.


----------



## stamello (Aug 1, 2013)

Joful said:


> "I could see a small part of the back of my upstairs drywall," may be a bigger problem.


Yes. But it looks like it's just missing a brick. Could I just cement the brick back in myself? 
I'm not at all opposed to bringing in a professional. But I'm skinny enough to actually crawl up there and do the job, whereas others may have problems accessing the area - causing further expense.


----------



## begreen (Aug 1, 2013)

Yes, you can clean the area and cement in the brick. Just don't get stuck up there!

The main thing is going to be getting safe clearances from the 2x4. If it can be removed, then DuraLiner should do the job. But check with DuraVent first and get the opinion of the folks the make the product.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 1, 2013)

Yep.  If you can get the wood out of the flue, you should be okay with an insulated liner, which provides approved "zero/zero" clearance.  That means "zero clearance between insulated liner and flue, and zero clearance between outside of masonry stack to wood."  It does NOT mean, "zero clearance from liner to wood in the chimney," as Dale once explained to me.  He stated that if there was any access to combustibles within the chimney, then you're into the territory of putting a metal chimney (not a liner) into your flue.

Again, call Duravent.  They'll put you on the right path.


----------



## ansehnlich1 (Aug 4, 2013)

Man I read this whole thread. What a flustercluck. If the $$$ was available I'd abandon that chimney all together and select a nice location for a wood stove and run a 6 in. stainless flue straight up and out the roof, or out and straight up the side of the house.


----------



## The Maine Stove Guy (Aug 4, 2013)

After Reading this thread my first thought was...Yikes! 

Joful's advice is dead on..



Joful said:


> Yep. If you can get the wood out of the flue, you should be okay with an insulated liner, which provides approved "zero/zero" clearance. That means "zero clearance between insulated liner and flue, and zero clearance between outside of masonry stack to wood." It does NOT mean, "zero clearance from liner to wood in the chimney," as Dale once explained to me. He stated that if there was any access to combustibles within the chimney, then you're into the territory of putting a metal chimney (not a liner) into your flue. Again, call Duravent. They'll put you on the right path.


 
I have run into this type of thing a couple times and unless you can be 100% sure there is no wood within the masonry structure you should go with a metal chimney rather than a liner. Even doing that you need to consider the required clearance to the combustible (wood)  that the metal chimney requires.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 4, 2013)

The Maine Stove Guy said:


> ...unless you can be 100% sure there is no wood within the masonry structure you should go with a metal chimney rather than a liner. Even doing that you need to consider the required clearance to the combustible (wood) that the metal chimney requires.


 
Yes... this is why my chimney was a no-go for the metal chimney, although I had forgotten until you just reminded me.  In my case, the suspected wood was at a location where there was a jog in the chimney, and thus no way to guarantee the required clearance to the metal chimney installed within.

Likely not an issue for the OP, but definitely good to keep in mind!


----------



## stamello (Aug 5, 2013)

ansehnlich1 said:


> Man I read this whole thread. What a flustercluck.


 
The crazy thing is that someone built it this way and were then burning in it since the 1980s. And at least two chimney sweeps OK'd it.


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Aug 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> Me? I'd *give DuraVent a call, ask for Dale (their engineering support guy),* and describe to him exactly what you have there. He is probably going to suggest putting a metal chimney product (eg. class-A chimney) inside of your chimney, rather than a liner product, but let him make the call.


 

plus 1 on the call to duravent and Dale who is fantastic. 

i gotta say this is one of the weirdest ones i've seen in some time , you my friend (op) are lucky to have not had a major issue with that runaway stove with that flue only protected by black pipe.

i gotta side with my pal Joful on this one , seek professional help and Dale is a great place to start


----------



## stamello (Aug 7, 2013)

begreen said:


> Yes, you can clean the area and cement in the brick. Just don't get stuck up there!
> 
> The main thing is going to be getting safe clearances from the 2x4. If it can be removed, then DuraLiner should do the job. But check with DuraVent first and get the opinion of the folks the make the product.


 

OK, I got up there and cut the piece of wood out. Pictures of the piece of wood and what the chimney looks like now are below. The pictures now show the whitish bottom of the mortar that was previously covered by the piece of wood. It's looks like it's just hanging now because the wood is gone. Above it is some sloppy mortar work and what looks like one or more a rock cemented into the side of the chimney. Above that is the 80s clay tile.

You can see that there is also a gap between the whitish bottom of the mortar and the interior side of the chimney. In that gap I can see more old wood and whisps of pink insulation. So I'm thinking that when they extended the chimney they just slapped that piece of wood in there and cemented some field stones above it to act as a fire barrier to the upstairs wall. 

The space between the whitish mortar ledge and the offset cinder block is about 4.5 inches.This doesn't seem like enough room to do anything with, and it seems like that whole ledge needs to come out anyways so that a real barrier can be installed. But I'm afraid of just crawling back in there and knocking it out in case it is in some way a part of the support system of the chimney (especially because I'll be in the chimney if anything starts falling).

As always advice and criticism is appreciated. I am very willing to call a professional on this, but I don't know of anybody that is going to be able to fit up there and see everything like I can.


----------



## begreen (Aug 7, 2013)

You get A+ for persistence. This is a bugger. I say drop the insulated liner. You appear to have a generous margin of safety now.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 7, 2013)

stamello said:


> You can see that there is also a gap between the whitish bottom of the mortar and the interior side of the chimney. *In that gap I can see more old wood and whisps of pink insulation*. So I'm thinking that when they extended the chimney they just slapped that piece of wood in there and cemented some field stones above it to act as a fire barrier to the upstairs wall.


I'm not sure I follow you 100%, but this statement is concerning to me.  That is bizarre the way that one course of block sticks into the flue.  You can buy block in any width (3", 4", 5", 6", 8"), so it doesn't make sense that they jammed a full 8" block in a space where only 4" would fit.  I do suspect it needs to be cut out, but understand your apprehension to do so.  I would consult a mason.  In some cases, you can find a company that does nothing but masonry chimney work.


Have you called Dale?


----------



## begreen (Aug 7, 2013)

You haven't met some of our local "builders". When the store only has 8" block left, that's what they use. In rural areas or when it is after store hours you would be surprised what shortcuts will be taken. I hate to see this stuff, but it happens out here more frequently than I would ever like to see.


----------



## stamello (Aug 7, 2013)

begreen said:


> You get A+ for persistence. This is a bugger. I say drop the insulated liner. You appear to have a generous margin of safety now.


 
But I only have a 4.5 inch space - the gap between the offset cinder block and the spot where the wood was is only 4.5 inches. Can I get an insulated liner in there?


----------



## stamello (Aug 7, 2013)

Joful said:


> Have you called Dale?


 
I haven't called him yet. I wanted to see whether I could get all the wood out.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 8, 2013)

stamello said:


> But I only have a 4.5 inch space - the gap between the offset cinder block and the spot where the wood was is only 4.5 inches. Can I get an insulated liner in there?


 
I'm thinking begreen read your post too quick, and missed that detail.


----------



## begreen (Aug 8, 2013)

Correct, that and my eyes didn't believe what I was seeing. It's amazing this chimney ever worked at all.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 8, 2013)

I think we're all in agreement:  that protruding block has to be chopped back flush with the rest of the flue.  How confident and handy you are will determine whether you want to tackle this, or call in a pro.  It might not hurt to get a pro's eyes on it, even if you intend to do the hand work yourself, as they may see things you don't.

The issue with the "in that gap I can see more old wood," is a separate issue, and is more reason to call a few pro's in to quote on making that chimney safe.  Again, even if you end up doing the work yourself, they'll give you some direction on where you should be going.

I'd worry less about that block sticking into the chimney, and your 4.5" clearance issue, which is easily solved.  I'd be much more worried about gaps and wood showing thru, as I believe this forces you to a metal chimney, rather than a liner.  As already stated, even with metal chimney, you must be able to guarantee a minimum clearance to any wood.


----------



## stamello (Aug 8, 2013)

Joful said:


> I think we're all in agreement: that protruding block has to be chopped back flush with the rest of the flue. How confident and handy you are will determine whether you want to tackle this, or call in a pro. It might not hurt to get a pro's eyes on it, even if you intend to do the hand work yourself, as they may see things you don't.
> 
> The issue with the "in that gap I can see more old wood," is a separate issue, and is more reason to call a few pro's in to quote on making that chimney safe. Again, even if you end up doing the work yourself, they'll give you some direction on where you should be going.
> 
> I'd worry less about that block sticking into the chimney, and your 4.5" clearance issue, which is easily solved. I'd be much more worried about gaps and wood showing thru, as I believe this forces you to a metal chimney, rather than a liner. As already stated, even with metal chimney, you must be able to guarantee a minimum clearance to any wood.


 

Thanks to all for the advice - I'll call in a pro. It'll probably be a week or two, but I'll update this post once he looks at it.


----------



## stamello (Aug 23, 2013)

stamello said:


> Thanks to all for the advice - I'll call in a pro. It'll probably be a week or two, but I'll update this post once he looks at it.


 

I had a chimney repair guy come out this morning. He looked at it for 30 minutes or so and talked to me about what I'd seen as well.

He did not like anything about the chimney. He said that the masons who built it did a terrible job and had basically just stacked up cinder blocks without filling them with concrete. They offset the top of the chimney so that there was not a straight run up the chimney so it is impossible to put in a liner without knocking out block. However, since the block was put in so poorly it was too dangerous to knock it out without compromising the integrity of the chimney itself.

So his assessment was that the chimney was unsalvageable. He was apologetic about this, but said that although he'd like the work it was simply too unsafe to try to fix. His only suggestion was to knock a hole out of the back of the chimney and put in a new class A chimney attached to the outside of the existing chimney.

So now I can either:
1) Get a second opinion,
2) Accept his assessment and stop considering wood fuel.
3) Accept his assessment and look for an alternative way to heat with wood. Outside wood furnace?

Advice?


----------



## begreen (Aug 23, 2013)

It's good that you got a professional opinion. I would remove the whole thing. It's a liability. If you want to heat with wood you can either replace it with a proper class A system or put a stove + flue in another location in the house.

FWIW, my son and I removed our full 2 story chimney and fireplace in a few days.


----------



## mellow (Aug 23, 2013)

If it is that much of a POS build then I would tear it down,  not sure where you are located but if the ground moves to much (earthquake) you have increased chances that could fall down and cause some serious damage.

I would tear it down then build a chase where the old chimney was and put a class A in the chase.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 23, 2013)

Another vote for tearing it down. You may recoup some space for closets / windows in the end. At a minimum, you can frame in a chimney chase (studs and cement board), and run a class A up thru it. It may look like a major undertaking, but it's not exactly rocket surgery.


----------



## stamello (Sep 6, 2013)

stamello said:


> I had a chimney repair guy come out this morning. He looked at it for 30 minutes or so and talked to me about what I'd seen as well.
> 
> He did not like anything about the chimney. He said that the masons who built it did a terrible job and had basically just stacked up cinder blocks without filling them with concrete. They offset the top of the chimney so that there was not a straight run up the chimney so it is impossible to put in a liner without knocking out block. However, since the block was put in so poorly it was too dangerous to knock it out without compromising the integrity of the chimney itself.
> 
> ...



Well, I decided to get a second opinion, and the next chimney sweep said the same thing - the chimney is unusable and unsalvageable. He didn't think that it was structurally a problem though - no cracks or movement in 30 years. Our area is not prone to earthquakes, so I'm not worried. 
He also suggested the same thing as the last guy - knock a hole out of the back of the chimney and run a new class A chimney attached to the outside of the existing chimney. Good idea? If so, can I do this myself, and at what cost?


----------



## Ashful (Sep 6, 2013)

Well, not what we were hoping for (or expecting, but who can judge from photos?), but you have a solution.

Depending on budget, I'd seriously consider removing the chimney.  You could replace it with a masonry stack (liner inside), a framed chase (metal chimney inside), or nothing at all (put class-A outside house).  Why keep the chimney, unless the budget dictated you must?


----------



## mellow (Sep 6, 2013)

If you ask me it would look horrendous to have a Class A chimney attached to the outside of a brick chimney.

As they say on that tv show that leaves people with huge tax debts after they get done fixing up the place..... Tear that thing down!

You might be able to resell the bricks or use them elsewhere.


----------



## stamello (May 11, 2014)

stamello said:


> Well, I decided to get a second opinion, and the next chimney sweep said the same thing - the chimney is unusable and unsalvageable. He didn't think that it was structurally a problem though - no cracks or movement in 30 years. Our area is not prone to earthquakes, so I'm not worried.
> He also suggested the same thing as the last guy - knock a hole out of the back of the chimney and run a new class A chimney attached to the outside of the existing chimney. Good idea? If so, can I do this myself, and at what cost?


Resurrecting an old thread, but I had other projects and haven't messed with this for almost a year. Until yesterday...
I climbed the chimney, got a 12 foot pipe and sledge and smashed out the ledge from the top. I now have a 6.75 square ID all the way down the chimney. 
Unfortunately, i also have about a 1 for square section of studs and plywood in the chimney right at the point where the clay tile meets the old chimney. Looks like the mortar shelf I smashed out was stuck directly to the upstairs wood.
What about one of those asbestos heat shields on that section combined with a dura vent solid liner?


----------



## Mt Bob (May 11, 2014)

Might want to consider micafil repair.


----------



## Ashful (May 11, 2014)

Id be planning a tear down, at this point.  I would just never get comfortable with wood in the chimney, no matter how it's lined.


----------



## jophysx (May 13, 2014)

I want to thank you for posting about your "challenges" with this chimney.  It's been very educational.  I am sorry you are having these problems, and I commend you for tackling them head on.
-Jim


----------



## stamello (Dec 24, 2014)

Back again...
I gutted the chimney from the inside in order to be able to put a new chimney/liner inside of the old chase. So I smashed the tile out and around 6 more inches as well in order to get enough space to work with. In doing this I found that around 12 feet of chimney tile was leaning directly against the particle board of the 2nd story of my house, so I stripped that side of the chimney entirely. Its unbelievable that the house never burned down...
So after smashing everything, I have masonry on three sides, and a 3 foot by 12 foot piece of particle board (the house) on the fourth side. I've had two different chimney sweeps look at it, and they're both comfortable putting a liner in it now, provided of course that the combustibles are properly covered and cleared. Here are their plans:
1. First guy wants to put in a 6 inch stainless steel flexible liner, put insulation around it, and run it through the whole chimney. Then he wants to slowly pour in a vermiculite mix to fill in the space between the liner and the particle board (as well as the rest of the chimney). This would be around 4 - 6 inches of vermiculite mix between the liner and the combustible. He thinks that this will provide proper insulation to the combustibles as well as stabilize the chimney.
2. Second guy does not like this plan. He wants to put a double wall liner in, but does not like the idea of the masonry mix. He wants 1-2 rows of actual brick (i.e. stacked and mortered) between the particle board and the liner. It would end up being the same distance (4-6 inches) between the particle board and the liner, but with brick instead of vermiculite. 
What do you think?


----------



## begreen (Dec 24, 2014)

Wow, you are indeed very lucky. Personally, I would consider completely removing the chimney and replacing it with a 6" class A chimney, using the current chimney chase. Removing brick is not that hard. It would probably take a full day's labor, but that can by DIY. If not, I prefer the second guy's approach.


----------



## stamello (Dec 24, 2014)

begreen said:


> Wow, you are indeed very lucky. Personally, I would consider completely removing the chimney and replacing it with a 6" class A chimney, using the current chimney chase. Removing brick is not that hard. It would probably take a full day's labor, but that can by DIY. If not, I prefer the second guy's approach.


Yeah, that is the other possibility. But we ultimately want a stone clad chimney - which is already there. So if I tore it down I'd need to build a new chase around the class A and then put stone up again. I'm hoping to just use the empty chase that I have. I could put a class A inside this chase though - I have enough room.


----------



## begreen (Dec 24, 2014)

If you can chase the class A without removing the stone, that would be good. Assuming there are no clearance problems, the main issue would be supporting it properly and securely.


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Dec 26, 2014)

im with BG, especially since an air space would be created between the flue and the exposed wooden wall. these kinds of things worry me, with the "pour" i'd be worried about good coverage  if the vermiculite did not fill completely (and there really wouldnt be a way to check it) it could leave a hot spot where heat could transfer to the wooden wall undetected.

its a much safer bet to do the insulated class A inside the chase as the insulating quality of the pipe system itself would be adequate even without the additional brick added to the inner wall provided the clearances asked for by the pipe manufacturer are met.


----------



## bholler (Dec 26, 2014)

For a liner you need to have atleast 4" nominal masonry between the liner and the combustibles and then either 1" of pour in or 1/2" of wrap to meet code and to be anywhere near safe.  You should not let that first sweep work on your house if that was his plan it is totally against code and would be unsafe.  The second plane would work but would be very difficult to do.  I like bg's plan the best it would be the safest and easiest option.  If there is room to do it and get the required support you might be able to treat the old masonry like a chase and run a class a inside it.  Not really what it was meant for but it would be a good solution if there is room


----------



## stamello (Dec 26, 2014)

bholler said:


> For a liner you need to have atleast 4" nominal masonry between the liner and the combustibles and then either 1" of pour in or 1/2" of wrap to meet code and to be anywhere near safe.  You should not let that first sweep work on your house if that was his plan it is totally against code and would be unsafe.  The second plane would work but would be very difficult to do.  I like bg's plan the best it would be the safest and easiest option.  If there is room to do it and get the required support you might be able to treat the old masonry like a chase and run a class a inside it.  Not really what it was meant for but it would be a good solution if there is room


Thanks, that is helpful. So it sounds like the vermiculite does not count as masonry?


----------



## stamello (Dec 26, 2014)

stoveguy2esw said:


> im with BG, especially since an air space would be created between the flue and the exposed wooden wall. these kinds of things worry me, with the "pour" i'd be worried about good coverage  if the vermiculite did not fill completely (and there really wouldnt be a way to check it) it could leave a hot spot where heat could transfer to the wooden wall undetected.
> 
> its a much safer bet to do the insulated class A inside the chase as the insulating quality of the pipe system itself would be adequate even without the additional brick added to the inner wall provided the clearances asked for by the pipe manufacturer are met.


I had also thought about cutting out the wood and replacing it with a sheet of concrete board. This way there wouldn't be any exposed wood at all. (As an additional step, not a solution).


----------



## begreen (Dec 26, 2014)

As long as there is at least 2" clearance from any combustible to the class A pipe then that step would not be necessary, but it wouldn't hurt either.


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Dec 26, 2014)

stamello said:


> I had also thought about cutting out the wood and replacing it with a sheet of concrete board. This way there wouldn't be any exposed wood at all. (As an additional step, not a solution).


 


well, with the insulated class A pipe BG (and sweep #2) suggested, the clearances you have would be totally acceptable even with the inside "wood" exposed to the pipe. typically the insulated class A is used for homes which do not have a traditional brick chimney and are commonly enclosed in a wooden chase. clearances are generally 2 inches (give or take an inch, one would always check manufacturers specs for actual clearance by brand) so even in a framed out wooden box with that much airspace around the pipe its perfectly safe. nothning wrong per se doing as you mentioned, but with the proper pipe its actually not necessary


----------



## bholler (Dec 26, 2014)

stamello said:


> Thanks, that is helpful. So it sounds like the vermiculite does not count as masonry?


no it is insulation not masonry you still need masonry between it and combustibles


----------



## Ashful (Dec 26, 2014)

This is correct.  The "0/0" rating of insulated liners (inc. vermiculite) means "zero clearance to masonry, and zero clearance from masonry to combustibles," not "zero clearance from liner to combustibles."  This is sometimes cited as one of the distinctions between a "chimney" and a "liner", when discussing metal piping.


----------



## stamello (Dec 26, 2014)

bholler said:


> For a liner you need to have atleast 4" nominal masonry between the liner and the combustibles and then either 1" of pour in or 1/2" of wrap to meet code and to be anywhere near safe.  You should not let that first sweep work on your house if that was his plan it is totally against code and would be unsafe.  The second plane would work but would be very difficult to do.  I like bg's plan the best it would be the safest and easiest option.  If there is room to do it and get the required support you might be able to treat the old masonry like a chase and run a class a inside it.  Not really what it was meant for but it would be a good solution if there is room


I talked to the second guy about the class a and he said it could be done, but would be around 2000 more mostly because of masonry work because he'd need to support it with an elbow at the bottom. But wouldn't it be easier to hang it from the top with something like this? http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimney/DuraTech-Chimney-System-Parts/6-inch-DuraTech-Roof-Support


----------



## bholler (Dec 26, 2014)

with a class a he would not need to add masonry between it and the wood.  And hanging it from the top is fine but it would still probably need stabilized more but that would depend upon the install instructions


----------



## claydogg84 (Dec 26, 2014)

I just read the entire thread.. What a mess! Have you decided to stick with the original insert?


----------



## stamello (Dec 27, 2014)

claydogg84 said:


> I just read the entire thread.. What a mess! Have you decided to stick with the original insert?


No - I decided to sell it on Craigslist and get a bigger englander.


----------



## stamello (Dec 29, 2014)

begreen said:


> If you can chase the class A without removing the stone, that would be good. Assuming there are no clearance problems, the main issue would be supporting it properly and securely.


Since the class A would be inside the chase and running straight down into the woodstove, there wouldn't be room to access a cleanout tee. Is this ok? How would I clean?


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Dec 29, 2014)

depends on the stove , for instance if it were one of my non-cat units , you could remove the ceramic baffles and tubes then brush the flue right down into the firebox itself, then clean the firebox out and reinstall the baffles and tubes, its acttually quite simple to get the upper package out of the stove and back in


----------



## stamello (Dec 29, 2014)

stoveguy2esw said:


> depends on the stove , for instance if it were one of my non-cat units , you could remove the ceramic baffles and tubes then brush the flue right down into the firebox itself, then clean the firebox out and reinstall the baffles and tubes, its acttually quite simple to get the upper package out of the stove and back in


I'm thinking the englander 30 (non-cat), so maybe this would work


----------



## stamello (Jan 7, 2015)

stamello said:


> I'm thinking the englander 30 (non-cat), so maybe this would work


Does anyone know if this method of cleanout would work with the englander 30? The chimney guy wants to put a Tee in the chimney run for the cleanout, then smash a hole in the existing chase so that the chimney can be cleaned from the outside. But if I can just run class A all the way down down into the stove and clean it inside the stove, then I wouldn't need this, right? When I mentioned this idea, he was concerned about chimney support, but it looks like we could still use the "duravent stainless Tee support" to support the chimney - but without installing the Tee. Is this correct?
If this is just as simple as running the class a pipe through the chase and supporting with the Tee support and stabilizing with the wall straps, then I'm thinking of doing it myself - since I know the chimney better than anyone now. Is this a bad idea?


----------



## begreen (Jan 7, 2015)

I'm not keen on that idea. Chimney pipe is not designed to connect to a stove.


----------



## stamello (Jan 7, 2015)

begreen said:


> I'm not keen on that idea. Chimney pipe is not designed to connect to a stove.


So could we do the above, and then the last foot or so run an adapter to stovepipe?


----------



## begreen (Jan 7, 2015)

For servicing and ease of installation I'd prefer to have the connector pipe telescoping. Not sure if they make it in less than 12-18". I still haven't visualized how this will work out though, especially the chimney support. Where would the bracket be mounted?  It would help if you could post some pictures and a sketch if necessary.


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 7, 2015)

DVL is the stovepipe for Duravent, no.  I believe that's what I have.  It's made for it..


----------



## stamello (Jan 7, 2015)

begreen said:


> For servicing and ease of installation I'd prefer to have the connector pipe telescoping. Not sure if they make it in less than 12-18". I still haven't visualized how this will work out though, especially the chimney support. Where would the bracket be mounted?  It would help if you could post some pictures and a sketch if necessary.



Here's a few pics that may help illustrate:

1. After stripping everything combustible off, below is my hearth. It's the original house chimney, and is brick with proper clearances for the first 10 feet. Above that is the second story add on chimney that has combustibles in it.
There aren't combustibles below the hearth - someone stacked concrete block and poured concrete down there prior to the previous install.






2. Below is my chimney from the outside. It's got stone over everything, so you can't see that it's actually the brick chimney with a 1980s cinder block chimney stacked on top. You can also see that it's about 5 feet too short.





3. Below is the type of hearth install I'd like: an englander 30 inside of my current hearth opening with the pipe coming straight down into the top of it.





4. Below is a quick sketch of a potential install. Don't read into the wavy lines - they're more representative of my drawing skills than the actual chimney . This is looking at it from the side. The dark shaded part is the existing brick portion of the chimney that has proper clearance to combustibles. The non-shaded part is the existing "chimney" that does not have clearance, and thus (according to previous comments) is essentially a chimney chase. Could a potential install be:
- class A duravent the whole way with an extension on top
- The "Tee support" supporting the chimney would be connected to the inside of of the chimney to the existing brick (which is in good shape). I can access this area prior to stove install via the hearth.
- No cleanout: cleanout would need to be in the stove
- wall straps at 8 and sixteen feet to studs. I can access this area via a hole in the upstairs wall that is already there from demolition for proper clearance.




5. Below is a picture looking up my chimney from the bottom. Not much can be seen, but you can see that it is brick




6. Here's what the upper portion of my chimney looks like now that we've removed all of the clay tile that was resting against the particle board, and smashed out some of the brick in order to gain proper clearance from the upstairs wall:


----------



## begreen (Jan 7, 2015)

Sketch didn't come through. Hopefully your fireplace cavity is much larger for more room to hook up than in BrotherBart's installation. My concern is that you are not going to find a plumb aligned wall to mount the pipe support onto. Often at the top of the fireplace things are sloped.


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Jan 7, 2015)

that looks like that "BB Brown" 30 up in northern Va


----------



## stamello (Jan 7, 2015)

begreen said:


> Sketch didn't come through. Hopefully your fireplace cavity is much larger for more room to hook up than in BrotherBart's installation. My concern is that you are not going to find a plumb aligned wall to mount the pipe support onto. Often at the top of the fireplace things are sloped.



My fireplace cavity is not much larger. Besides install, is there a downside to that?
I could also mount the pipe support to the studs in the top of the "chimney" which are perfectly plumb. That would mean that about 10 feet of the pipe would be hanging below the pipe support (but with a wall strap to the brick. Would this be OK?


----------



## bholler (Jan 7, 2015)

Why not just run an insulted liner in the section that is all masonry and class a above that it would be allot cheaper and easier in my opinion.  Try posting the pics again though i am having trouble following your description with out them


----------



## stamello (Jan 7, 2015)

bholler said:


> Why not just run an insulted liner in the section that is all masonry and class a above that it would be allot cheaper and easier in my opinion.  Try posting the pics again though i am having trouble following your description with out them


I'll try to upload via a different method on my office computer tomorrow. 
Regarding the class A plus liner suggestion: I assumed that because the chimney was compromised in the upper portion that I couldn't put a liner in the lower portion because the heat could travel up. But I guess I could put a block off plate in or something? Is this standard?


----------



## bholler (Jan 7, 2015)

stamello said:


> Regarding the class A plus liner suggestion: I assumed that because the chimney was compromised in the upper portion that I couldn't put a liner in the lower portion because the heat could travel up. But I guess I could put a block off plate in or something? Is this standard?



with out seeing the chimney i cant say for sure it sounds very odd for sure


----------



## stamello (Jan 8, 2015)

bholler said:


> with out seeing the chimney i cant say for sure it sounds very odd for sure


I updated my post above - hopefully the images can be seen now.


----------



## begreen (Jan 8, 2015)

stamello said:


> I updated my post above - hopefully the images can be seen now.


Yep. I see them now. I'd brace the chimney class A at the top and at the bottom and no tee support.


----------



## stamello (Jan 8, 2015)

begreen said:


> Yep. I see them now. I'd brace the chimney class A at the top and at the bottom and no tee support.


When you say "brace", do you mean with a wall strap (http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimn...ts/6-inch-DuraPlus-Stainless-Steel-Wall-Strap )? Or some other method?


----------



## begreen (Jan 8, 2015)

Yes. Though you could use the tee bracket if you can install it so that it is perpendicular to the chimney pipe. That might take shimming. Put a level on the inside where you think it might go and see whether that area is truly vertical.


----------



## stamello (Jan 8, 2015)

begreen said:


> Yes. Though you could use the tee bracket if you can install it so that it is perpendicular to the chimney pipe. That might take shimming. Put a level on the inside where you think it might go and see whether that area is truly vertical.


The wall braces sound fine to me and much easier and cheaper. I just didn't know that they could be used as vertical support. Thanks!


----------



## begreen (Jan 8, 2015)

It is not their purpose. The tee bracket would definitely be more secure and a better support. If used maybe drill clearance holes and screw a couple #10 anchor screws per brace strap? Better yet call DuraVent tech support and ask what they think.


----------



## bholler (Jan 8, 2015)

I disagree with begreen i would hang it from the top with a roof support bracket and the use a wall support at the bottom to stabilize it.  Wall supports are not meant to do anything but stabilize the chimney


----------



## begreen (Jan 8, 2015)

I like that idea.


----------



## stamello (Jan 8, 2015)

bholler said:


> I disagree with begreen i would hang it from the top with a roof support bracket and the use a wall support at the bottom to stabilize it.  Wall supports are not meant to do anything but stabilize the chimney



So if I did this, essentially I'd be doing the install in the top left corner of the image below, but with all 6" duratech until the last foot. But my roof bracket would be connected to the masonry at the top of the chimney instead of to wooden joists. Does this look OK?


----------



## bholler (Jan 8, 2015)

Yeah that was my thought


----------



## begreen (Jan 8, 2015)

I think this is bracket bholler is thinking about. Though I am wondering about how to cap and flash the chimney top with it in place and I am not sure the flanges would span the flue opening.


----------



## bholler (Jan 8, 2015)

begreen said:


> Though I am wondering about how to cap and flash the chimney top with it in place and I am not sure the flanges would span the flue opening.


The roof flashing will sit right over it that bracket is made to work with their flashing and the cap would be like any other class a cap.  And yeah you might need to add some steel to span the opening but that is no big deal


----------



## begreen (Jan 8, 2015)

Not sure if this is going to get a roof cap. This is a chimney.


----------



## bholler (Jan 8, 2015)

begreen said:


> Not sure if this is going to get a roof cap. This is a chimney.


I would just get a flat roof flashing kit and be done with it why do anything else?   If they wanted to do a lower profile flashing just flip the bracket over so it extends down into the chimney then you have a flat top


----------



## stamello (Jan 8, 2015)

bholler said:


> I would just get a flat roof flashing kit and be done with it why do anything else?   If they wanted to do a lower profile flashing just flip the bracket over so it extends down into the chimney then you have a flat top


So with that plan it looks like this would be my supply list. Am I missing anything major?


----------



## bholler (Jan 8, 2015)

Looks about right but you wont need that roof bracket just the roof support and i don't see a wall bracket to stabilize the bottom


----------



## begreen (Jan 8, 2015)

That looks like a double-wall stove adapter and pipe. For this short run I would use single-wall DuraBlack pipe and a 14" telescoping piece + stove adapter if needed.

You might also want to compare piping prices. Here's a site to try:
http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/Chimney-Pipe-Venting-Pipe/Wood-All-Fuel-Piping/6-inch-c154/


----------



## bholler (Jan 8, 2015)

I agree with begreen on that point there are no clearance issues and not a long run so no need for double wall


----------



## stamello (Jan 9, 2015)

begreen said:


> ks like a double-wall stove adapter and pipe. For this short run I would use single-wall DuraBlack pipe and a 14" telescoping piece + stove adapter if needed.





begreen said:


> That looks like a double-wall stove adapter and pipe. For this short run I would use single-wall DuraBlack pipe and a 14" telescoping piece + stove adapter if needed.
> 
> You might also want to compare piping prices. Here's a site to try:
> http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/Chimney-Pipe-Venting-Pipe/Wood-All-Fuel-Piping/6-inch-c154/



Thanks - it looks like they also have better prices and a broader selection. I found a less expensive bracket ( http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/M...stable-Re-Support-Bracket-6DT-RES-p33630.html ) that is rated to hold 20 feet of pipe, and was described in the duratech literature as being used for chimneys without a Tee. I think I'd be more comfortable with this bracket anchored to studs instead of the roof support on masonry - that way I'm not dependent on the integrity of the top of my "chimney". Less expensive too. So I think that this would be my shopping list. Does this plan sound OK? It looks a lot better to me than the ~3.5-4k bids I'm getting...


----------



## bholler (Jan 9, 2015)

That should work if you have somewhere good to mount it.  That material price is allot lower but it isnt in yet that will not be an easy install at all.  If i where doing it i am sure my price would be in line with what you were quoted


----------



## stamello (Jan 9, 2015)

bholler said:


> That should work if you have somewhere good to mount it.  That material price is allot lower but it isnt in yet that will not be an easy install at all.  If i where doing it i am sure my price would be in line with what you were quoted


Sure - I don't mean to begrudge them their labor - it will be hard work. But if I'm looking at it correctly, the install will be difficult because of man-hours it will take to fit everything correctly in the tight space; with the straight run and two points of contact it doesn't seem particularly hard from a technical standpoint. I just don't want to pay someone for something that three reasonably competent friends and I could do ourselves.


----------



## bholler (Jan 9, 2015)

And i am not saying you shouldn't do it or cant do it but it will be a pain in the ass for sure lol


----------



## stamello (Jan 9, 2015)

bholler said:


> And i am not saying you shouldn't do it or cant do it but it will be a pain in the ass for sure lol


Agreed - my wife thinks I'm crazy


----------



## bholler (Jan 9, 2015)

good luck lol


----------



## stamello (Feb 2, 2015)

begreen said:


> That looks like a double-wall stove adapter and pipe. For this short run I would use single-wall DuraBlack pipe and a 14" telescoping piece + stove adapter if needed.
> 
> You might also want to compare piping prices. Here's a site to try:
> http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/Chimney-Pipe-Venting-Pipe/Wood-All-Fuel-Piping/6-inch-c154/



With the telescoping pipe plus stove adapter, this gives me ~16-24 inches of durablack above the stove and out of the damper/hearth area (before I connect to the duratech). There are no combustibles anywhere near this, so clearance is not a problem.
Can I install a sheet metal/roxul damper seal lower than the durablack/duratech connection point? The hearth opening ends at 10 inches above the stove, so ideally I'd put a damper seal just above there, right? But the durablack continues on for 6-14 inches above that point. Is it OK to have durablack above the damper seal and surrounded by roxul? It feels wrong to "bury" it...
If it's not OK, I could raise the damper seal to the durablack/duratech connection point, but it seems like this would trap heat in the chimney area above the stove instead of move it into the room. Or I could try to cut down the telescoping pipe, but it seems like this piece is tapered, and cutting off part of the slip end would weaken my seal.


----------



## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

block it above the transition to class a you cant burry stove pipe


----------



## stamello (Feb 4, 2015)

bholler said:


> block it above the transition to class a you cant burry stove pipe


OK, the stove manual install pic showed it with the block off plate on the stovepipe below the transition. But that seemed weird to me. Too bad - I think I could save a lot of heat if I could block it lower...


----------



## bholler (Feb 4, 2015)

I am assuming that in that diagram that is rigid liner because it is against code to run stove pipe up into the chimney like that


----------



## stamello (Feb 7, 2015)

bholler said:


> good luck lol


OK, I installed it today with some friends. Good draft, no leaks, nice fire. However, the outside of the duratech (the double wall class A) seems too hot. I have 3 inches of clearance to combustibles, so I'm not too worried - it's just hotter than I expected. I had initially put a piece of roxul insullation between the chimney pipe and the combustible - touching both the duratech and the plywood. But now I'm wondering whether that was preventing the pipe from cooling, so I pulled it all out except for above the damper seal. Do you think that this was my problem?


----------



## stamello (Feb 7, 2015)

stamello said:


> OK, I installed it today with some friends. Good draft, no leaks, nice fire. However, the outside of the duratech (the double wall class A) seems too hot. I have 3 inches of clearance to combustibles, so I'm not too worried - it's just hotter than I expected. I had initially put a piece of roxul insullation between the chimney pipe and the combustible - touching both the duratech and the plywood. But now I'm wondering whether that was preventing the pipe from cooling, so I pulled it all out except for above the damper seal. Do you think that this was my problem?


an hour after pulling the roxul away the duratech is cooler, but still hot. Before I couldn't hold my finger on it for more than a second, now I can put my hand on for 5 seconds before pulling away. Is this something to worry about? Maybe there's still too much Roxul above my damper seal to let the pipe above it cool? Or is it OK for the duratech to run hot if I maintain the clearance to combustibles?


----------



## begreen (Feb 8, 2015)

Our chimney pipe can be very warm to the touch when flue temps are hot and the stove has been going for awhile, liked after a reload ignites. I haven't measured the temp but you would only put your hand on it for a second or two. Keep insulation away from the pipe except at the damper seal and it should be ok as long as the proper clearance is maintained from any and all combustibles.


----------



## stamello (Feb 8, 2015)

begreen said:


> Our chimney pipe can be very warm to the touch when flue temps are hot and the stove has been going for awhile, liked after a reload ignites. I haven't measured the temp but you would only put your hand on it for a second or two. Keep insulation away from the pipe except at the damper seal and it should be ok as long as the proper clearance is maintained from any and all combustibles.


Ok, thanks. It scared me yesterday, but then today I started wondering whether it was better if the insulation made chimney pipe burn hot - since it might burn cleaner...


----------



## begreen (Feb 8, 2015)

No, that is not worth experimenting with. I think it would also void the pipe warranty. For a clean chimney, burn fully seasoned wood and don't let the fire smolder. Run the stove correctly on dry wood and you may not get more than a cup full of powder from cleaning after a season of burning.


----------



## Hogwildz (Feb 8, 2015)

If you're going to do it right, you may want to consider the largest insert or freestanding stove that will fit in there, new liner is a must, and make sure the liner size is matched to the stove outlet size.
The insert you have is going to put some heat out, but a larger one will do a much better job for your size space.
These are not like the old days, where you threw in wood and let it burn like hell. The research and effort taken to burn these stoves properly is not very overwhelming, and in time, you will know exactly how to burn in whichever stove you choose. 
The positive side, you have plenty of room to run a new liner up that old chimney. If it were me, I would definitely make sure the liner is insulated and a block off plate is installed in the old damper area of the old fireplace.
Some new stone veneer on the face would look great!
If you go with that insert or any other, get the blower for it. Between the block off plate & the blower you will notice the difference right away. A good bit of heated air is going up that old chimney cavity as is, and that is heat that could be going into the house.


----------



## Grisu (Feb 8, 2015)

stamello said:


> an hour after pulling the roxul away the duratech is cooler, but still hot. Before I couldn't hold my finger on it for more than a second, now I can put my hand on for 5 seconds before pulling away. Is this something to worry about? Maybe there's still too much Roxul above my damper seal to let the pipe above it cool? Or is it OK for the duratech to run hot if I maintain the clearance to combustibles?



Can you put a flue thermometer in the stretch behind the stove before it transitions to the class A? Maybe you are letting the air open a bit too much which means you lose quite a bit of heat up the chimney? On the other hand, I have seen people here reporting temps of 200 F for the outside of double wall. That would be hot enough for me to not touch it.


----------



## stamello (Feb 9, 2015)

Grisu said:


> Can you put a flue thermometer in the stretch behind the stove before it transitions to the class A? Maybe you are letting the air open a bit too much which means you lose quite a bit of heat up the chimney? On the other hand, I have seen people here reporting temps of 200 F for the outside of double wall. That would be hot enough for me to not touch it.


Yesterday I let the stove burn with air wide open. The pipe was warm, but not nearly as hot as on saturday. So I think that the insulation was my problem. The temps are in the 60s here for the next few days so I'll let the stove rest, but next weekend when it's cold again I'll test the pipe temp on startup. 
On another note - I don't have a lot of play with my stove damper. When I close it all the way it seals and the fire shuts down. But there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference between 5% open and 100% open - I'm getting a pretty roaring fire either way. Could it be that my draft is so strong that it's sucking a ton of air through that crack? Any remedies to this, or should I just be happy that I've got good draft?


----------

