# New Mt.Vernon AE pellet stove owner - not as toasty as I thought!



## gregt23 (Dec 12, 2013)

Hello All - I am glad I found this forum to get real world advise and answers from real world users.
We just had a new Mt.Vernon AE pellet stove insert installed. I have had several evenings to "play" with the stove and the thermostat. To this point I am somewhat disappointed in the performance. Several people I talked with (including the company I purchased from and his installers) told us how it would pretty much "run us out" of our living room because of the heat output. As of this point - and having it run all night on high or medium high or leaving the thermostat set at about 75 degrees - I have yet to get the temp of the room over about 68 degrees. Here is some background - 12 year old stick built home, 2x6 exterior walls, good insulation. The living room, kitchen and dining area are one large, open concept room with vaulted ceilings. Total square footage is about 1500 - 1700 sq. ft. We have a ceiling fan running in the main living room area and it is located just out front and above the stove. I have had the fan running in both directions and at various speeds without any difference in temp. I have increased the flame from the 0 setting up to +4 and do not notice any heat output difference.
I am just curious if this large of an area with vaulted (about 18 feet at its highest point) ceilings may be too large of an area to expect a temp of 70 to 75 degrees. Any suggestions or information would be greatly appreciated.
I am burning premium hardwood pellets (Easy Heat). The company I purchased the stove from and the pellets (Schlemmer Brothers in Wabash, In - GREAT, GREAT, GREAT group of people and very good to do business with) just started using these pellets and even they say they are probably not the best on the market. I am going to try a different brand when Schlemmer Bros. gets a new shipment to see if this helps.
Thank you in advance for any help or ideas that can be offered.


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## t5eu9eb7 (Dec 12, 2013)

I bought one of those inserts last year and had a similar problem. The short answer is its inexplicably better this year. Last year I only used it a few times a week. It never seemed to put out very hot air and didnt do much to heat the room its in either. I had a service tech out who agreed that it didnt seem to be as hot as it should be. Nothing was solved there. This season I started using it all the time and its working much better. The left over ton of pellets from last year still were not very warm. All the brands I bought this year have been ok. Maybe I just had a bad batch? I cant say it will ever cook me out of anything and it really struggles and loses ground when the temps get into the 20's and below but I am also asking it to do a lot. Its heating a 6 year old 3800 square foot house with higher cealings. Set at 70 the downstairs is 70 and the upstairs about 67. When its in the low 20's and teens it drops to about 67-78 and 64 up stairs. It also never shuts off at that point. 2x4 walls and very poor insulation. How poor you ask? My attached 3 car garage is never below about 50 degrees. Even when its 11 outside. I use no fans to move the air. From my limited experience all I can suggest is keep using it and try some other brands of pellets. Maybe it they have a break in period?


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## JoeS (Dec 12, 2013)

Need more information.

What are the settings you are running on?

List them all!


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## gregt23 (Dec 12, 2013)

t5eu9eb7 said:


> I bought one of those inserts last year and had a similar problem. The short answer is its inexplicably better this year. Last year I only used it a few times a week. It never seemed to put out very hot air and didnt do much to heat the room its in either. I had a service tech out who agreed that it didnt seem to be as hot as it should be. Nothing was solved there. This season I started using it all the time and its working much better. The left over ton of pellets from last year still were not very warm. All the brands I bought this year have been ok. Maybe I just had a bad batch? I cant say it will ever cook me out of anything and it really struggles and loses ground when the temps get into the 20's and below but I am also asking it to do a lot. Its heating a 6 year old 3800 square foot house with higher cealings. Set at 70 the downstairs is 70 and the upstairs about 67. When its in the low 20's and teens it drops to about 67-78 and 64 up stairs. It also never shuts off at that point. 2x4 walls and very poor insulation. How poor you ask? My attached 3 car garage is never below about 50 degrees. Even when its 11 outside. I use no fans to move the air. From my limited experience all I can suggest is keep using it and try some other brands of pellets. Maybe it they have a break in period?



Thank you for the info. Maybe its like a diesel engine and it just gets better with age and use. I have almost noticed a difference each day. It seems like it gets a little better. I called the company I purchased the unit from and he said he would stop out early next week and bring his laptop. He said he can run diagnostics to see if everything is working properly. They just switched pellets because the company they had purchased them from for years actually caught fire and the factory burnt down. I can only imagine how hot a pellet factory fire would be He also mentioned they have a new pellet shipment coming in tomorrow from out East and he hopes they will be a little better quality then what they have now. He said he would give me a few bags to try out and see if there is any difference.
Our house is well insulated so I expected to be just about ran out of the living room. I do feel the company I purchased it from will do anything they can to make sure it is running properly and that I am happy with its performance.
Thanks again for the reply. I hope yours continues to get better and better with usage.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 12, 2013)

JoeS said:


> Need more information.
> 
> What are the settings you are running on?
> 
> List them all!


Also, how many pounds of pellets per hour is your stove consuming?


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## gregt23 (Dec 12, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Also, how many pounds of pellets per hour is your stove consuming?



I have tried 3 different settings for 3 nights.
1st night - Auto mode with the temp set at 70
2nd night - Manual mode - highest setting
Last night - Auto mode, but with the temp held at 75
The hopper holds 47 pounds. I usually fill it up first thing in the morning (8am) and then again when I get home from work (about 7 or 8pm). I will usually top it off before I go to bed.
So I guess it us using about 1.5 to 2 pounds per hour - this is really a guess, but I am going through about 1 40lb bag per day.


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## icegatorman (Dec 12, 2013)

Try a different brand of pellet. I burned some easy heat pellets and they burned fairly clean and a hopper lasted a long time however I'm heating about the same square footage as you minus the vaulted ceilings and wide open 68 to 70 is all the heat I could get out of them. I'm in auburn so I'm not far from you and its been single digits the last couple nights and my stove on medium setting has kept the house 75. I'm burning pro pellets which around me the brand choices are slim. Rural king sales pro pellets they burn a lot hotter


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 12, 2013)

icegatorman said:


> Try a different brand of pellet. I burned some easy heat pellets and they burned fairly clean and a hopper lasted a long time however I'm heating about the same square footage as you minus the vaulted ceilings and wide open 68 to 70 is all the heat I could get out of them. I'm in auburn so I'm not far from you and its been single digits the last couple nights and my stove on medium setting has kept the house 75. I'm burning pro pellets which around me the brand choices are slim. Rural king sales pro pellets they burn a lot hotter


If the pellets are lasting a long time you aren't burning a lot. Your stove can't make heat without consuming pellets. Try increasing the flame height setting.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 12, 2013)

gregt23 said:


> So I guess it us using about 1.5 to 2 pounds per hour - this is really a guess, but I am going through about 1 40lb bag per day.


A pound of pellets is about 8500 BTU. So you are burning about 12750 to 17000 BTU (input). That is far below what the stove is capable of.
This week my stove has been consuming in excess of two bags a day.


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## gregt23 (Dec 12, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> A pound of pellets is about 8500 BTU. So you are burning about 12750 to 17000 BTU (input). That is far below what the stove is capable of.
> This week my stove has been consuming in excess of two bags a day.


 
Thank you a ton for all the info. I am def going to try a diff brand of pellets (it just sucks that I just bought a pallet of these Easy Heats). I do feel this stove is capable of much more heat production.
I keep seeing "OAK" on several of the postings. What is this? Is it something I should find out about (if mine has it or not)?
Thanks again.


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## Powerhorse (Dec 12, 2013)

gregt23 said:


> Thank you a ton for all the info. I am def going to try a diff brand of pellets (it just sucks that I just bought a pallet of these Easy Heats). I do feel this stove is capable of much more heat production.
> I keep seeing "OAK" on several of the postings. What is this? Is it something I should find out about (if mine has it or not)?
> Thanks again.


OAK = Outdoor Air Kit.

The OAK brings in outdoor air for combustion. This way the stove is not pulling air into the house thru cracks and poorly sealed areas.


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## RockyMtnHigh (Dec 12, 2013)

Harvey is spot on... Increase the flame height one degree and go from there. Also, I'd be willing to bet your stove isn't up to date with the fuel tables and the tech should be able to tweak it pretty good with the software. Make sure it is set for the proper fuel type as well, whether it be for softwood or hardwood. I've had no luck with the "utility pellet" setting to date.

I'm unsure of your altitude but if you're over 4000' you need to change the elevation setting as well.

Good luck, wish I could loan you my software and my cable  Fuel tables do a LOT for these stoves in my experience.


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## gregt23 (Dec 12, 2013)

Powerhorse said:


> OAK = Outdoor Air Kit.
> 
> The OAK brings in outdoor air for combustion. This way the stove is not pulling air into the house thru cracks and poorly sealed areas.


 
OK. Thank you again. I have a newer, well insulated home, but I imagine there are still plenty of poorly sealed areas where it can pull air into the house.


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## john193 (Dec 12, 2013)

It is very likely that your heat is just hanging out near the ceiling.  I have a 1700 sqft ranch and I can heat the house to 70 on medium when it's 15 out.  I doubt you will see a major difference in another brand of pellets, but it doesnt hurt to try. 

Do you think you might be having issues with air leaks?  If you are consuming near 2 bags in 24 hours, you are working pretty close to the top range of the stove.  One thing I'd try is adjust the blower speed from quiet to normal.  This will increase the speed of the blower fan and push the hot air further from the stove.

One thing you never mentioned is how cold is it outside?  Is the stove on all the time?  Pellet stoves have a long recovery.

In auto, the stove is very conservative in the way it works and will ramp down the heat as it gets near temp.  For example, it is about 12 degrees here right now.  To keep the house at 70, I need to set the stove to 72/73 on auto.  This is because as it gets close to temp, the stove goes from medium-hot, to medium, then to medium low.  Once the house is at temp, the stove runs on medium-low generally 75% of the time.  Depending on how cold it is, you will likely never reach 75 degrees with the stove set to 75.  Compensate your desired temperature by upping the thermostat by 2-3 degrees (at least).


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## gregt23 (Dec 12, 2013)

RockyMtnHigh said:


> Harvey is spot on... Increase the flame height one degree and go from there. Also, I'd be willing to bet your stove isn't up to date with the fuel tables and the tech should be able to tweak it pretty good with the software. Make sure it is set for the proper fuel type as well, whether it be for softwood or hardwood. I've had no luck with the "utility pellet" setting to date.
> 
> I'm unsure of your altitude but if you're over 4000' you need to change the elevation setting as well.
> 
> Good luck, wish I could loan you my software and my cable  Fuel tables do a LOT for these stoves in my experience.


 
Even with this unit being only a few days old? Would the fuel tables not be set to the latest software? It is set on hardwood pellets - although I don't think they are as hardwood as what some other brands may be. The flame was set to 0 and I jumped it up to level 4. Some things I have read say that a higher flame does not necessarily mean more heat?? That doesn't make much sense to me - I would just think higher flame = more heat. It sucks being a newby!! lol


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## john193 (Dec 12, 2013)

gregt23 said:


> Even with this unit being only a few days old? Would the fuel tables not be set to the latest software? It is set on hardwood pellets - although I don't think they are as hardwood as what some other brands may be. The flame was set to 0 and I jumped it up to level 4. Some things I have read say that a higher flame does not necessarily mean more heat?? That doesn't make much sense to me - I would just think higher flame = more heat. It sucks being a newby!! lol


the flame heigh is your feed rate.  a higher rate means more pellets are dumped per rotation of the augar.  more fuel = more heat (ignoring efficiency).


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## jslinger (Dec 12, 2013)

I agree that you should have no trouble heating a home that size with your stove.  I heat a very similar home, with my XXV (50KBTU).  Even when the temps get down well below zero, it has no trouble keeping up.  
I am unable to hold my hand in front of the blower for more than a couple of seconds, because the air coming out is so hot. I don't have experience with your stove specifically, but I imagine you should be experiencing the same, if everything is running correctly.


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## stoveguy13 (Dec 12, 2013)

where is the thermostat located and how close is it to the stove?


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 12, 2013)

Without an OAK your stove is competing for air with everything else drawing air from the house. Most houses run at a negative pressure. If the pressure is low the stove will not be able to pull as much air as is needed for efficient combustion.
The company that installed my MVAE didn't want to install an OAK, but I insisted on it. I'm glad that I did. It makes a lot of sense not to pull combustion air from the house.
If the stove uses 100cfm that is a volume that is 10 ft by 10 ft by 60 ft every hour. All of that volume being pulled primarily in through window seals, electrical outlets and door seals.


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## gregt23 (Dec 12, 2013)

john193 said:


> It is very likely that your heat is just hanging out near the ceiling.  I have a 1700 sqft ranch and I can heat the house to 70 on medium when it's 15 out.  I doubt you will see a major difference in another brand of pellets, but it doesnt hurt to try.
> 
> Do you think you might be having issues with air leaks?  If you are consuming near 2 bags in 24 hours, you are working pretty close to the top range of the stove.  One thing I'd try is adjust the blower speed from quiet to normal.  This will increase the speed of the blower fan and push the hot air further from the stove.
> 
> ...


 
I had our ceiling fan reversed because most of what I have read says to do that in the winter to help spread the heat more evenly (this is mainly with normal heating systems). Yesterday I set the ceiling fan to normal rotation and that has helped to push the heat down. I have ran the stove on every setting - Auto, Manual and Auto with the temp set to hold on 75. I reset the temp variance to 2.0. and have the blower speed to normal.
It has been very cold the last few days. Last night got down below 0 with the wind chill. I ran it all night with the temp held on 75 degrees but could not get the house over about 68. 
I really don't think the house has any air leaks, but I believe the area behind the stove needs to be better insulated but I'm not sure how much this effects the temp output of the stove.
I have noticed the Auto mode allows the unit the ramp up and down more often so I have tried to keep it on manual and on the highest setting to try and get the temp up as high as possible. I'm really hoping to be able to heat my entire house with the help of my regular heating systems fan.
It may sound a little crazy, but it does seem to produce more heat every day. Maybe better pellets will be just enough to kick it into overdrive.
Thank you for all your help and information.


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## gregt23 (Dec 12, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Without an OAK your stove is competing for air with everything else drawing air from the house. Most houses run at a negative pressure. If the pressure is low the stove will not be able to pull as much air as is needed for efficient combustion.
> The company that installed my MVAE didn't want to install an OAK, but I insisted on it. I'm glad that I did. It makes a lot of sense not to pull combustion air from the house.
> If the stove uses 100cfm that is a volume that is 10 ft by 10 ft by 60 ft every hour. All of that volume being pulled primarily in through window seals, electrical outlets and door seals.


 Thanks a bunch. That makes a lot of sense now. I am going to find out if they installed an OAK or not. It was installed in a previous wood burning fireplace insert and I remember seeing an air inlet that should be very easy to connect to this system.


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## gregt23 (Dec 12, 2013)

stoveguy13 said:


> where is the thermostat located and how close is it to the stove?


 The thermostat is beside the stove around a corner where the fireplace protrudes slightly. It is beside and slightly behind the direction of where the heat blows.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 12, 2013)

gregt23 said:


> The thermostat is beside the stove around a corner where the fireplace protrudes slightly. It is beside and slightly behind the direction of where the heat blows.


It should be about 15 feet from the stove. If it is too close it will shut down too soon.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 12, 2013)

coming in late but i'll try to balance this up with some bullet points;

1. 1700 sq. ft. vaulted ceilings, so we're heating a much larger equivalent when you look "cubic feet" which is the actual area, when sq. ft. expectations are figured, its factoring based on 8 ft ceilings
2. 1.8 lbs/hr. this is a 40 lb. bag in 24 hours. this is what is usually consumed by an average pellet stove running at its lowest or nearly its lowest setting. even if the unit gave 100% thermal efficiency (it don't, no pellet stove does or the exhaust temps would be the same as intake temps)
that's not enough to heat that space.
heating with pellets is just like anything else which uses fuel to perform work, think of driving, if you put the car in gear and let off the brake it should move forward, but if you never step on the gas you don't go very fast simply put, you should be burning 2.5-3.0 lbs/hr. to heat the space you describe unless you have the house literally mummified in insulation. And this will vary based on outdoor temps and the actual amount of heat that leaks out of the structure

remember , a stove is a "space heater" its ability to heat is strictly dependent on the potential its given to convert to heat. I lb. of pellets will have roughly 8500 BTU of stored potential, now if 100% of this energy is released you will get the largest percentage of this as usable heat, the rest leaves with the exhaust.

it aint magic, its physics. its a physical fact that heat energy cannot be destroyed once released, it can only be dissipated, just as with any form of energy. now thermal energy is dissipated by the natural movement from "warm" energized particles to "cooler" less energized particles,
now the air in the house makes up these particles so heated air travels away from the stove brushing against less warm air in each case these particles come in close proximity the less energized (cooler) particles rob energy from the warmer ones. so the farther these particles have to travel the more cooler ones they encounter and the more thermal energy is shared making each particle closer to similar in their energy possession. this makes the air cooler farther from the heat source. in order to carry more heat farther 2 things must happen,first, the energized air must be contained and not exposed to cold air from outside which would rob more energy at a faster rate. secondly, there has to be enough thermal energy transferred to the air to "share" with cooler air to  raise the overall temps to the level which is desired. this means more energy has to be released to do that we need to burn more fuel.

I know im getting "in the weeds" but I like to break it down this way as its actually to me easier to grasp. hope this helps ya


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## gregt23 (Dec 12, 2013)

Thanks to everyone for all the help and information. I will be sure to update after trying a few of the things I have learned. Thanks again. I appreciate all the input.


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## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

"1.8 lbs/hr. this is a 40 lb. bag in 24 hours. this is what is usually consumed by an average pellet stove running at its lowest or nearly its lowest setting."

I'm going through this exercise yet again, trying to figure out how much of our situation is house-related vs. how much of it is stove related.

We are at the very end of a 55 lbs. hopper full of pellets that's been running since about 10:50pm last night.  We've been running at feed setting 4 as recommended in the owners manual.  The owner's manual specifically says not to run the stove on high or low on a regular basis, but to run the stove on a feed setting of 4. We probably have another hour's worth of pellets in the hopper, maybe two hours worth.  

EDITED:  Full hopper of 55 lbs. pellets took almost exactly 27 hours to burn at feed setting 4, which corresponds to almost exactly 2 lbs./hr.

I'm estimating that gives us a feed of about 2 lbs. per hour.  Mike, I believe that's what we calculated when we did this last year about this time.  That gives us a BTU production of 17k/hour, or 40,800 BTUs in a 24 hour period.  This BTU production agrees with the stated specs for the stove:
8500 to 42,500 BTUs.  Napoleon states that this stove is rated to heat 800 to 2000 sq ft.  Our house is 1410 sq ft.

I read on a Dept. of Energy web site that a stove rated at 60,000 BTUs can heat a 2000 sq ft house, while a stove rated at 42,000 BTUs can heat a 1300 sq ft home.  So, yes, our stove is slightly undersized for our space.

http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/wood-and-pellet-heating

Rather than lose money on swapping out stoves, we've been trying to insulate and seal this house, and that has helped.

I am considering selling this Napoleon and buying a bigger Englander off of AM FM Energy's web site, but for the moment I am fighting that off.  After all, a bigger stove burns more pellets, so a bigger stove will cost us more money to run, in addition to the money we'd lose on swapping out stoves.  So if we can get away with hanging on to the BTUs we already make we'll come out money ahead, no matter how much of what fuel we burn.

It is frustrating to deal with the inconsistencies in stove ratings vs. area heated. 

Mike, if we were to swap out for a larger Englander, what stove and what size would you recommend?


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## SwineFlue (Dec 13, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> I'm estimating that gives us a feed of about 2 lbs. per hour. Mike, I believe that's what we calculated when we did this last year about this time. That gives us a BTU production of 17k/hour, or 40,800 BTUs in a 24 hour period. This BTU production agrees with the stated specs for the stove: 8500 to 42,500 BTUs. Napoleon states that this stove is rated to heat 800 to 2000 sq ft. Our house is 1410 sq ft.


Your stove is rated at 42,500 BTUs/hour, or 5 pounds per hour.  At that rate, it should be able to burn a bag in only 8 hours.  My 30,000 BTU/hr stove can go through a bag in about 10 hours, so I would think you should be able to get more heat out of yours.

The sq ft ratings are very crude estimates for a well-insulated house in a "typical" climate.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 13, 2013)

> 17k/hour, or 40,800 BTUs in a 24 hour period.


I think you slipped a decimal point. 17,000 * 24 = 408,000

Your stove's capacity is:
(42,500 BTU/hr) / (8500 BTU/lb) = 5 lb/hr
5lb/hr * 24 hr/day = 120 lbs/day = 3 bags/day

If the 42,500 BTU is output capacity, divide by efficiency (approximately 75%) to get input of *four* bags per day.

Open the throttle and let her burn!


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## LMPS (Dec 13, 2013)

Welcome to the Mount Vernon world......I think we all have struggled at one time or another to get enough heat out.  For a long time I ran my stove at 0 or - flame height until last year when we had a discussion here and it was point out as others have already that lower flame height =less pellets=less heat.  When it gets cold like it is now I run it wide open +5.  
The other thing is I run it on the softwood pellet setting even though I am using a hardwood pellet, because softwood gives you the longest time in between auto cleaning.  Some on here run on the sunflower setting, which does put out the heat but also uses a lot of pellets.  Again more pellets more heat.  
The out cleaning is ok, but personally I wish I could turn it off.  Reason being is the stove shuts down more when it is burning on high than on medium and ever time it shuts down it is not heating the house as well as when its running.  I am sure others can tell you the exact run time between cleanings based on the different fuel types.  So, with this stove its a balance of getting heat by running it on high vs how often it auto cleans.  This is one balance I have not been able to find when it gets real cold out.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 13, 2013)

Another thing to consider. You will get more heat out of the stove on manual setting rather than automatic setting. Or, perhaps more accurately, the stove will maintain a higher temperature for the same thermostat setting. Automatic approaches the temperature setpoint  while manual will overshoot the setpoint. In really cold weather I prefer the stove to be more aggressive in pursuing it's setpoint.


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## Madcodger (Dec 13, 2013)

I have owned the freestanding version of your stove for 4 years now.  Here's what I've learned:

1)  "It will run you out of there" indicates to me a dealer who does a lot of wood stoves and some pellet stoves.  It has come to mean, to me, a person who focuses on lots of heat production but less on HOW that heat is produced and distributed and on saving energy.  A modern pellet stove is designed to use outdoor air for combustion and to use that combustion to heat indoor air that is pulled from inside the house.  The two loops are separate, which contributes greatly to efficiency and comfort.

2) The very first thing to find out is your OAK status.  You MUST have one!  Running an MVAE without an OAK is like trying to do 70 on the highway with the parking brake on.  Can you do it?  Possibly.  But you will waste stunning amounts of energy doing so, and likely never get to your goal.  Dealers - especially wood stove dealers - very often claim you don't need one.  You have heard an idiot speak when that happens, or perhaps more generously a person who has a poor knowledge of building science.  There is no debate here - a stove without an OAK is using already conditioned (heated) air for combustion, and sending it outside at the end of that process.  Air does not magically appear - it must come from somewhere.  No OAK means it comes from inside the house and is immediately replaced with cold outside air through very tiny leaks all over your house.  And I can also tell you that I was stupid enough to allow an install of an older stove without an OAK, a decision I am now trying to fix (I was an idiot when I allowed it).

3) As a very knowledgeable member pointed out, this is really just physics.  I think you'll come to enjoy your MVAE, but only after the dealer has done more on their part.  The room size and layout (over 3 dimensions, not just two, b/c of the cathedral ceiling) is a challenge but I suspect you're not at the max yet for this stove.  Please tell us the OAK status and outside temps.  Once we know that, this is a fantastic forum for help.  Great people here!


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## john193 (Dec 13, 2013)

Check this out for auto clean cycle times, among other details of your MVAE. 

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/mt-vernon-ae-downloadable-trouble-shoot-manual.105258/


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## LMPS (Dec 13, 2013)

I just did a quick heat check between with a hand held temp. gun and on Sunflower- it read 430f.  On Softwood it read 230 so about double the heat but also from what I recall last time I ran it on sunflower for an extended period it was double the pellets.  Which goes to the theory more pellets more heat.


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## john193 (Dec 13, 2013)

LMPS said:


> I just did a quick heat check between with a hand held temp. gun and on Sunflower- it read 430f.  On Softwood it read 230 so about double the heat but also from what I recall last time I ran it on sunflower for an extended period it was double the pellets.  Which goes to the theory more pellets more heat.



On softwood running on medium with a feed rating of +2 I'm seeing 320 at the center of the stove discharge. (Barefoot)

But I never tired sunflower. Thanks for the tip.


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## john193 (Dec 13, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I think you slipped a decimal point. 17,000 * 24 = 408,000
> 
> Your stove's capacity is:
> (42,500 BTU/hr) / (8500 BTU/lb) = 5 lb/hr
> ...


Do you know the max lb/hour on the MVAE?

With H&H revising the output on this stove from 60k to 52k, I'm wondering what if anything has changed. My dealer told me that nothing had changed, aside from a revision in the paperwork. 

At 52k assuming 8500 BTUs/lb I'm calculating 6.1 lbs/hr max. Which equates to about 3.5 bags in 24 hours.


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## stoveguy13 (Dec 13, 2013)

gregt23 said:


> The thermostat is beside the stove around a corner where the fireplace protrudes slightly. It is beside and slightly behind the direction of where the heat blows.



You should move the t-stat it is not in a good location at all this will not allow the stove to run properly


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 13, 2013)

john193 said:


> Do you know the max lb/hour on the MVAE?
> 
> With H&H revising the output on this stove from 60k to 52k, I'm wondering what if anything has changed. My dealer told me that nothing had changed, aside from a revision in the paperwork.
> 
> At 52k assuming 8500 BTUs/lb I'm calculating 6.1 lbs/hr max. Which equates to about 3.5 bags in 24 hours.


The meaning of the spec is somewhat obscure. The spec is for input energy, not output, and the type of fuel is not specified. I'm wondering if they were claiming the 60K based on a really hot pellet (9300 BTU/lb ?) vs the average 8500 BTU/lb. I don't believe that they spec the lbs/hr anywhere.
For comparison I checked the boiler that was sized for the whole house plus domestic hot water and it is 111,000 BTU/hr. So the 52,000 BTU/hr seems appropriate for the first floor of my house. It carries the load even in this cold weather (in the teens every night).


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## stoveguy13 (Dec 13, 2013)

john193 said:


> Do you know the max lb/hour on the MVAE?
> 
> With H&H revising the output on this stove from 60k to 52k, I'm wondering what if anything has changed. My dealer told me that nothing had changed, aside from a revision in the paperwork.
> 
> At 52k assuming 8500 BTUs/lb I'm calculating 6.1 lbs/hr max. Which equates to about 3.5 bags in 24 hours.


i think the main reason the changed it was that they did not want the MT vernon to show higher btus then the xxv same reason they increased the heat output on the new accentra insert


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## john193 (Dec 13, 2013)

stoveguy13 said:


> i think the main reason the changed it was that they did not want the MT vernon to show higher btus then the xxv same reason they increased the heat output on the new accentra insert


This is basically what my dealer said.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 13, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> EDITED: Full hopper of 55 lbs. pellets took almost exactly 27 hours to burn at feed setting 4, which corresponds to almost exactly 2 lbs./hr. I'm estimating that gives us a feed of about 2 lbs. per hour. Mike, I believe that's what we calculated when we did this last year about this time. That gives us a BTU production of 17k/hour, or 40,800 BTUs in a 24 hour period. This BTU production agrees with the stated specs for the stove: 8500 to 42,500 BTUs. Napoleon states that this stove is rated to heat 800 to 2000 sq ft. Our house is 1410 sq ft.


 

ok, 17K over 27 hours is 408K, not 40.8K  an input value based on 8.5Kbtu pellet potential would put 40.8Kbtu/hr at 4.8 lbs/hr  means to input that much heat with this fuel the needed feed rate would be 8.33 hours for a 40 lb bag. or 11.45 hours for 55 lbs

so in order to release the 40Kbtu we have to burn that much volume, remember, its not the stove that makes the heat, its the fuel.

now, here's the question of the day, what is heat range 4? is it high low or medium (4 out of what). if this is the high rate and the stove can only feed 2 lbs/hr at that rate it aint a 40Kbtu stove plain and simple.

now if the stove is on a stat then it skews the data quite a bit as there will be time when the unit is not feeding at all (on/off) or feeding on low (high/low) so to get a true reading on potential it would have to be run unaffected by a stat. on other words if the stove feeds 4.8lbs/hr when heat is called for and shuts off when the stat aint calling for heat, the stove would be running 30.7% of the time at that rate or roughly 1/3 of the time. if you are running a stat would this jive with what you are seeing with the stove running?


----------



## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

stoveguy2esw said:


> ok, 17K over 27 hours is 408K, not 40.8K  an input value based on 8.5Kbtu pellet potential would put 40.8Kbtu/hr at 4.8 lbs/hr  means to input that much heat with this fuel the needed feed rate would be 8.33 hours for a 40 lb bag. or 11.45 hours for 55 lbs
> 
> so in order to release the 40Kbtu we have to burn that much volume, remember, its not the stove that makes the heat, its the fuel.
> 
> ...



Ok, well, that's what *I* get for doing math in the wee hours after a long day of canning!

Here are the numbers:

Per the manual:
The stove is rated to heat 800 sq. ft. to 2000 sq. ft.
The BTU/hour output is 1.0 to 5.0 lbs./hour
The BTU/hour output is 8500 to 42500
Hopper capacity is 55 lbs.
The manual quotes pellet heat content as "approximately 8200 BTU per pound minimum."

The feed control is a continuous dial from 1-5, with 4 being the recommended setting.  I assume that's a 4 lbs./hour feed, then.

The stove is not hooked to a thermostat, nor is there the capability to do so, as far as I know.

I had the hopper filled to the rim when I began timing it, but not over-full.  The hopper lid could close completely without obstruction.  The stove ran continuously for 27 hours, with one of us making sure toward the middle to the end that the remaining pellets were moved down to the bottom of the hopper and within reach of the auger.  During this time, we shut the stove down twice to remove clinkers from the burn pot.  Each time the stove was shut down for approximately 10 minutes, at the end of which we reached in with  gloved hand and dumped the burn pot into the stove's ash drawer.  This 20 minutes of shut down was subtracted from the overall run time.

With the handful of remaining pellets and mostly fines at the very bottom of the hopper, sitting on top of the auger, the stove shut itself down at 27 hours.  It could not feed enough fuel to sustain a burn.  I'm going to call that a bona fide 27 hour burn time.

55 lbs. of pellets/27 hours = 2 lbs/hour
and that's all we've *ever* gotten out of this stove- which does not correspond to a burn rate of 4 lbs./hour on the best of days.

The auger seems to run just fine, the stove seems to operate just fine, but that's our feed rate at setting 4.

We purchased the stove in 2008, so we are way out of warranty on the electronic circuits and motors by now.

I could call our stove store but I'm not sure how far that will get me.  They no longer carry this pellet stove nor that manufacturer's line, and the store has changed management a couple of times since we bought the stove.

I don't think I could force two bags of pellets in a 24 hour period through this stove with a shoe horn at feed setting 4.  That has not been my experience, anyway, when we've timed burns.  Although, here's a thought- does the auger pick up fewer pellets as the load in the hopper lighten? 

Perhaps we are burning more pellets/hour when we keep the hopper topped off- but I swear, I don't know how to time that accurately.  I can tell you that I do not perceive that we are anywhere near putting two bags of pellets a day into this stove when it's running continuously on feed setting 4.

If the feed setting is off and always has been, how do we deal with that?


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Dec 13, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Ok, well, that's what *I* get for doing math in the wee hours after a long day of canning!
> 
> Here are the numbers:
> 
> ...


 
yeah, something is amiss, have you ever run it at lower than 4? if so does it really show a difference in feed rate? also, if the company doesn't recommend running at 5 why the <insert expletive> do they have it in the stove?

its possible that the "high range" they are advertising is based on "5" output, but if this is the case there would have to be a massive difference in feed rates between 4 and 5.

doesn't make any sense to me. we'll figure it out, I need something to sink my teeth into today anyway, wife is having her hernia worked on at UVA today i'll have my kindle and cell with me so I should be able to communicate. be nice to have the distraction while im languishing in the waiting room


----------



## stoveguy13 (Dec 13, 2013)

the easiest way to find out if the stove is feeding the right amount on a setting is to know the auger timing for example on low on for 3 seconds off for 5 on high on for 5 seconds off for 2 seconds  i just made the times up but the stove manufacture should be able to give this timing and this will tell you if it is feeding correctly


----------



## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

stoveguy2esw said:


> yeah, something is amiss, have you ever run it at lower than 4? if so does it really show a difference in feed rate? also, if the company doesn't recommend running at 5 why the <insert expletive> do they have it in the stove?
> 
> its possible that the "high range" they are advertising is based on "5" output, but if this is the case there would have to be a massive difference in feed rates between 4 and 5.
> 
> doesn't make any sense to me. we'll figure it out, I need something to sink my teeth into today anyway, wife is having her hernia worked on at UVA today i'll have my kindle and cell with me so I should be able to communicate. be nice to have the distraction while im languishing in the waiting room



Mike, give our best to your wife!  UVA is a great hospital.  We have a good friend who is a nurse there.

I'm getting ready to tear the stove down to clean out the exhaust pathway after burning the last of the overly ashy pellets we were trying to clear up.

I'll PM our phone number to you so you can call if you are bored out of your mind in the waiting room, but only call if you want the distraction.  Wife first, all the stoves in the world can wait!


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Dec 13, 2013)

stoveguy13 said:


> the easiest way to find out if the stove is feeding the right amount on a setting is to know the auger timing for example on low on for 3 seconds off for 5 on high on for 5 seconds off for 2 seconds  i just made the times up but the stove manufacture should be able to give this timing and this will tell you if it is feeding correctly


 

exactly right. this is the first step Becca. we will want to look at this cycle timing on various settings to see where we are starting from


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## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

stoveguy13 said:


> the easiest way to find out if the stove is feeding the right amount on a setting is to know the auger timing for example on low on for 3 seconds off for 5 on high on for 5 seconds off for 2 seconds  i just made the times up but the stove manufacture should be able to give this timing and this will tell you if it is feeding correctly



Stoveguy, do you know how to get in touch with the Napoleon manufacturer?  I tried to get in touch with them for another question early in the ownership of this stove- couldn't find a phone number, and I believe that I sent an email which never got a response.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 13, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Mike, give our best to your wife!  UVA is a great hospital.  We have a good friend who is a nurse there.
> 
> I'm getting ready to tear the stove down to clean out the exhaust pathway after burning the last of the overly ashy pellets we were trying to clear up.
> 
> I'll PM our phone number to you so you can call if you are bored out of your mind in the waiting room, but only call if you want the distraction.  Wife first, all the stoves in the world can wait!


 

thanks Becca, im just thinking of the wait nothing really to do so the distraction will help pass the time for me. I can get on the kindle there im sure so will be able to keep up with things in here that way (love that kindle)


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 13, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Stoveguy, do you know how to get in touch with the Napoleon manufacturer?  I tried to get in touch with them for another question early in the ownership of this stove- couldn't find a phone number, and I believe that I sent an email which never got a response.


 

not off hand, kinda hoping a resident member who works with these stoves will show up, input from a person who is familiar with the way this manufacture's systems work would be invaluable in figuring this out. I know the theory as well as anyone , but not knowing the mechanical/electrical ins and outs of this particular machine isn't helping much. do you know if they have anything of that nature on their website? or a downloadable manual?


----------



## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

stoveguy2esw said:


> not off hand, kinda hoping a resident member who works with these stoves will show up, input from a person who is familiar with the way this manufacture's systems work would be invaluable in figuring this out. I know the theory as well as anyone , but not knowing the mechanical/electrical ins and outs of this particular machine isn't helping much. do you know if they have anything of that nature on their website? or a downloadable manual?



http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/products/nps45-pellet-stove/

There's a button on the left side of the page that you can click to download the manual.

That's the NPS45, which is the next generation.  Our stove is the NPS40.  I need to download the 45's manual and compare it to ours to make sure that it's the same.  Off the top of my head, the only change of which I'm aware is that the NPS45 has a "purge cycle," in which the combustion fan draws a stronger poof of air through the burn pot to clean it, once at start up and then once an hour during the burn cycle.  Oh, and apparently they've put hinges on the access doors (that's a huge improvement over our model) and they are back to some sort of cleaning/filling rake.  There was, apparently, a burn pot rake or something like that on earlier versions of our stove as well?  but we don't have one.  I'm not really sure what that on again/off again gadget does.


----------



## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

Mike, I downloaded the owner's manual for the NPS45.  The specs (area heated, feed rates vs. pounds per hour burned, BTU output, etc.) are identical to our NPS40.


----------



## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

P.S. My apologies to gregt23 for hijacking your thread.  

BecaSunshine <----  Thread Thief   

I'm sorry!


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 13, 2013)

Some stoves have a choke plate at the inlet to the auger. That plate allows the feed rate range to be set. If yours has one, it is possibly set wrong. You would have to know how many pounds per hour are expected for a correct setup.
That being said, manufacturers have been know to lie misrepresent the capabilities of their product. Don't know, just conjecture.


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## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Some stoves have a choke plate at the inlet to the auger. That plate allows the feed rate range to be set. If yours has one, it is possibly set wrong. You would have to know how many pounds per hour are expected for a correct setup.
> That being said, manufacturers have been know to lie misrepresent the capabilities of their product. Don't know, just conjecture.



I have finished some other household chores- clothes on the line, etc. and I have run the hose on the Shop Vac all the way up the exhaust vent pipe to the stove from outside the house.  I have the Shop Vac in the house now and I'm getting ready to vacuum out the empty hopper, take the combustion side of the stove off, pull the combustion fan motor and vacuum out the exhaust path.  

Harvey, can you tell me what I should see in terms of a choke plate at the inlet to the auger?  'Cause I will sure look for that while I'm in there.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 13, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Harvey, can you tell me what I should see in terms of a choke plate at the inlet to the auger? 'Cause I will sure look for that while I'm in there.


I'm not familiar with your stove, but what I would look for is small plate with slotted holes and held in place by one or two screws. The plate can slide on the screws in the slots to alter the size of the opening from the hopper to the auger.
I have this on my bottom feed 25-PDVC.


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## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I'm not familiar with your stove, but what I would look for is small plate with slotted holes and held in place by one or two screws. The plate can slide on the screws in the slots to alter the size of the opening from the hopper to the auger.
> I have this on my bottom feed 25-PDVC.




I do not have that plate at the intersection of the hopper and the auger.  Here's a picture of the auger in the empty hopper.  
	

		
			
		

		
	





Also, I did a "one Mississippi, two Mississippi" count on feed rate 4 while I had the auger turning, so I could vacuum out all fines and the remainder of the pellets, and start fresh with new pellets.  (I cannot believe this, but I do not appear to have any sort of digital stop watch thingy around here.  Don't even ask about my coal-fired cell phone.  It can call a tow truck if I'm stuck and that's about it, but that's about all I want in a cell phone anyway.)

Based on my count, feed rate four is as follows:

Auger turns every EIGHT seconds
When the auger begins turning, it turns for TWO seconds.  After the auger finishes turning, there is a SIX second interval before it begins to turn again.


----------



## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

Also causing me a slight amount of concern at the moment: 

Apparently the last time we pulled the combustion motor to vacuum the exhaust path, we caught one of the electrical wires that supplies the combustion motor in between the gasket and the housing, and tightened the motor mount down on it. 

The portion of the wire that was entrapped was flattened when I found it, with some fibers from the gasket stuck to it.  I brushed the fibers away.  The rubber wire casing, while flat, appears to be intact.  I see no bare wire.  The wire is not hot to touch, neither at the flattened part nor anywhere else on the wire.

The combustion motor seems to be running normally.  Everything sounds as I expect it to sound.  I see no smoke coming from the motor nor from the wire.

I'm thinking we dodged a bullet here. 

I've attached a couple of bad pictures.  It's an awkward place to take a picture; our stove is set into a corner at an angle and there's not a lot of space on either side.
	

		
			
		

		
	





If anybody knows any reason why we should replace this wire, splice it? or, if we can't, replace the combustion motor, please tell me!


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 13, 2013)

If there was a possibility of getting some shrink tubing over the damaged wire that would be my preferred way of insulating it. Otherwise, I would wrap it with electrical tape.


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## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

Aha.  Electrical tape.  I can do that!

I started the stove with 40 lbs. of Turman's at around 2pm.  Based on a 4 lbs./hour feed rate, which is supposedly what will happen at setting number 4, then we should have an empty hopper at midnight.  So, we shall see!


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## RockyMtnHigh (Dec 13, 2013)

Id wrap the wire in electrical tape but if it was causing an issue you'd know by now. The Mt Vernon AE is the only quad that doesnt have an adjustable feed gate, it regulates pellet feed via the wall control through the flame height adjustment option.


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## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

RockyMtnHigh said:


> Id wrap the wire in electrical tape but if it was causing an issue you'd know by now. The Mt Vernon AE is the only quad that doesnt have an adjustable feed gate, it regulates pellet feed via the wall control through the flame height adjustment option.



That wire is all wrapped up in electrical tape.  Stove running like a top on feed 4 with a bag of Turman's.  (Glad to be finished with the ashy pellets.)  There does not appear to be a problem with the combustion fan; it is running smoothly and quietly.  We'll see how long it takes the stove to burn through this 40 lbs. bag of pellets at feed setting 4!


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## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

This is what currently remains of a 40 lbs. bag of Turman's that was placed in the stone cold empty, freshly vacuumed hopper at 2pm today.  The hopper holds 55 lbs.

The feed rate has been set exactly on 4 since 2pm.  According to the stove manual, a feed rate of 4 should burn 4 lbs. an hour.

This means that at midnight tonight, this hopper should be empty.  The attached picture was taken at 9pm.  Do you think that this hopper will be empty at midnight?  No? 

Me either.

The feed rate is off on this stove.

Now, what to do about it?


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 13, 2013)

There are several possibilities that come to mind:

A loose auger coupling
The auger is being inhibited by the vacuum switch
Vac leak
bad switch
clogged tubing

An intermittent auger motor connection
A control board problem (bad driver)
My favorite is #2


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## chken (Dec 13, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Based on my count, feed rate four is as follows:
> 
> Auger turns every EIGHT seconds
> When the auger begins turning, it turns for TWO seconds.  After the auger finishes turning, there is a SIX second interval before it begins to turn again.


I'm sure a MVAE owner can tell you, but that doesn't sound like a 4 pound/hour rate. If I were to guess, I'd say that's like 1.5 to 2 pounds an hour.


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## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> There are several possibilities that come to mind:
> 
> A loose auger coupling
> The auger is being inhibited by the vacuum switch
> ...




Ok, I pulled the vacuum tube off a couple of weeks ago to do the Leaf Blower Trick.  I didn't check it to see if it was clogged, but I can do that easily enough.

How would we test for a vacuum leak?

I ran the stove for a few minutes today when the hopper was completely empty.  I wanted to vacuum all of the fines out of the auger, and it helped to turn the auger.  The auger appeared to be turning normally.

I also timed the auger cycle at feed setting 4.  It was as follows:

The auger turns every 8 seconds.  The duration of the auger turn is 2 seconds.  The turning is followed by a 6 second idle period.

The auger's turning is signaled appropriately by the auger movement light on the control panel.

The auger does not appear to be jammed.  The auger motor sounds fine.

I have sent a message to Napoleon's customer service through their web site.

That's what I have right now.


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## becasunshine (Dec 13, 2013)

chken said:


> I'm sure a MVAE owner can tell you, but that doesn't sound like a 4 pound/hour rate. If I were to guess, I'd say that's like 1.5 to 2 pounds an hour.



It corresponds almost exactly to a 2 lbs./hour feed rate, as we clocked it last night.  Twenty seven hours to burn through a full 55 lbs. hopper.


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## rickh117 (Dec 13, 2013)

gregt23 said:


> Hello All - I am glad I found this forum to get real world advise and answers from real world users.
> We just had a new Mt.Vernon AE pellet stove insert installed. I have had several evenings to "play" with the stove and the thermostat. To this point I am somewhat disappointed in the performance. Several people I talked with (including the company I purchased from and his installers) told us how it would pretty much "run us out" of our living room because of the heat output. As of this point - and having it run all night on high or medium high or leaving the thermostat set at about 75 degrees - I have yet to get the temp of the room over about 68 degrees. Here is some background - 12 year old stick built home, 2x6 exterior walls, good insulation. The living room, kitchen and dining area are one large, open concept room with vaulted ceilings. Total square footage is about 1500 - 1700 sq. ft. We have a ceiling fan running in the main living room area and it is located just out front and above the stove. I have had the fan running in both directions and at various speeds without any difference in temp. I have increased the flame from the 0 setting up to +4 and do not notice any heat output difference.
> I am just curious if this large of an area with vaulted (about 18 feet at its highest point) ceilings may be too large of an area to expect a temp of 70 to 75 degrees. Any suggestions or information would be greatly appreciated.
> I am burning premium hardwood pellets (Easy Heat). The company I purchased the stove from and the pellets (Schlemmer Brothers in Wabash, In - GREAT, GREAT, GREAT group of people and very good to do business with) just started using these pellets and even they say they are probably not the best on the market. I am going to try a different brand when Schlemmer Bros. gets a new shipment to see if this helps.
> Thank you in advance for any help or ideas that can be offered.




Make sure you hit the hold setting on your wall control or it will go into its program cycle that the default setting is 68


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 13, 2013)

> Make sure you hit the hold setting on your wall control or it will go into its program cycle that the default setting is 68


?

Why not just set up the program to be what you want it to be?


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## becasunshine (Dec 14, 2013)

... and here's the hopper at midnight, after a continuous 10 hour burn on feed setting 4 (which should feed 4 lbs. of pellets/hour) which started with a 40 lbs. bag of pellets at 2pm.  There's about half a bag of pellets left in the hopper.
	

		
			
		

		
	




Per above, it's more like a 2 lbs./hour feed rate.

I sent a note to Napoleon through their web site.  I received an auto-reply email which requested me to send any additional information, documentation, etc. associated with or describing my issue in reply to that auto-reply email.  I did so.  I described the situation again, and I sent along the 9pm picture and the midnight picture, showing the remaining level of pellets.

We'll see what Napoleon says!


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## becasunshine (Dec 14, 2013)

Same stove, same 40 lbs. bag of pellets, same feed setting of 4 (which is supposed to feed 4 lbs./hour) just after 11am the next day, 21 hours and change into one 40 lbs. bag of pellets. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
  We probably still have about an hour's worth of pellets here, maybe two hours of pellets at this stove's feed rate.


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## stoveguy13 (Dec 14, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> The auger turns every 8 seconds. The duration of the auger turn is 2 seconds. The turning is followed by a 6 second idle period. The auger's turning is signaled appropriately by the auger movement light on the control panel.


 this sounds way off i would think it should be the other way around off for 2 on for 6


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 14, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Same stove, same 40 lbs. bag of pellets, same feed setting of 4 (which is supposed to feed 4 lbs./hour) just after 11am the next day, 21 hours and change into one 40 lbs. bag of pellets.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it were me (Engineer mentality) I would measure the on time and cycle time for each of the settings. That would tell me if the control is doing anything at all  and I could see if the proportions make any sense.
Of course not knowing what the original design Engineers intended would still leave me guessing if a 25% duty cycle should be at the upper end of the scale. I think that is unlikely.


----------



## becasunshine (Dec 14, 2013)

Excellent points, stoveguy13 and HarveySchneider.

We are involved in a family holiday gathering shortly- but I will investigate your suggestions a little later on today.  Both good input- THANK YOU.


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## becasunshine (Dec 14, 2013)

Ok, putting this here quickly to remember it:

Previous 40 lbs. bag of pellets was put into stove, stove started on feed setting 4, at 2pm on Friday, 12/13/13.  The stove was run continuously on feed setting 4, and that 40 lbs. bag of pellets was used up (with the exception of a scant handful to keep the auger from emptying completely) at noon on Saturday, 12/14/13.  This one bag of pellets burned for 22 hours at feed setting 4.  Auger interval:  auger turns once every 8 seconds.  It turns for 2 seconds, then sits idle for 6 seconds.  At the end of the 6 second idle period, it turns again.

At noon on 12/14/13, we refilled the hopper with another 40 lbs. bag of pellets.  Feed setting 4.5, the very upper limit of the "acceptable range bracket" that is painted above the numbers on the feed rate dial.  This range bracket spans the distance between feed settings 3.5 to 4.5.  The auger cycle at this setting appears to be a 7.5 second duration:  2.5 seconds on, followed by a 5 second idle interval, after which the auger turns again.


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## chken (Dec 14, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Same stove, same 40 lbs. bag of pellets, same feed setting of 4 (which is supposed to feed 4 lbs./hour) just after 11am the next day, 21 hours and change into one 40 lbs. bag of pellets.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, it seems like you need to adjust the feed rate up. 2 secs on, 6 off can't be right. Seems like it should be 4 secs on, 4 secs off at setting 4. Can it be adjusted?


----------



## Harvey Schneider (Dec 14, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Ok, putting this here quickly to remember it:
> 
> Previous 40 lbs. bag of pellets was put into stove, stove started on feed setting 4, at 2pm on Friday, 12/13/13.  The stove was run continuously on feed setting 4, and that 40 lbs. bag of pellets was used up (with the exception of a scant handful to keep the auger from emptying completely) at noon on Saturday, 12/14/13.  This one bag of pellets burned for 22 hours at feed setting 4.  Auger interval:  auger turns once every 8 seconds.  It turns for 2 seconds, then sits idle for 6 seconds.  At the end of the 6 second idle period, it turns again.
> 
> At noon on 12/14/13, we refilled the hopper with another 40 lbs. bag of pellets.  Feed setting 4.5, the very upper limit of the "acceptable range bracket" that is painted above the numbers on the feed rate dial.  This range bracket spans the distance between feed settings 3.5 to 4.5.  The auger cycle at this setting appears to be a 7.5 second duration:  2.5 seconds on, followed by a 5 second idle interval, after which the auger turns again.


From the NPS40 users manual:

*SYMPTOM*
Feed rate dial has 
no effect on the fire 
(timer control only)

- Secure all connections to the power control module.
- Perform a resistance test to the potentiometer by placing the two test leads from a multi meter into the 
 leads of the potentiometer. The potentiometer should have a range of 850 KΩ (± 10%). 
 Potentiometer readings:
 Full counter-clockwise (switched off) = open circuit, overload or infinite resistance
 Low fire .......... 900 KΩ to 1,050 KΩ 
 High fire ......... 56 KΩ to 62 KΩ
 If the range is not close or does not vary then replace the potentiometer


----------



## slls (Dec 14, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> I do not have that plate at the intersection of the hopper and the auger.  Here's a picture of the auger in the empty hopper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is that a solid auger, not the spring type like other Quads?


----------



## becasunshine (Dec 14, 2013)

slls said:


> Is that a solid auger, not the spring type like other Quads?



slls, I must confess, I stole this thread.  We have a Napoleon NPS40 free standing pellet stove, and we have questions about the feed rate.  But yes, as far as I can see, it's a solid auger.


----------



## RockyMtnHigh (Dec 14, 2013)

Keeping on the Quad part of things, the AE is a spring auger like the older quads.


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## becasunshine (Dec 14, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> From the NPS40 users manual:
> 
> *SYMPTOM*
> Feed rate dial has
> ...



I saw this in the trouble shooting section in the manual.  I admit, I blew past it because my thinking was that turning the feed rate dial *does* have an effect on the pellet feed- it always has- but that the dial settings and the pellet feed don't match up.  A feed rate of 4 doesn't really equal 4 lbs./hour feed rate.  We've proven that by now.

It never occurred to me that a failing or failed or bad potentiometer could simple skew the feed rate- the feed rate will still be variable, but not true to the dial settings.  

Good call, Harvey!

We threw a fresh 40 lbs. bag of pellets into the empty hopper at noon, turned the feed rate to 4.5, then left the house to attend a family function.  When we got back we didn't pay attention to the stove immediately.

When we did look at the stove's hopper at 10pm, it appeared that about half of the 40 lbs. was gone.  The Hubs put about 3/4 of a new bag of pellets into the hopper to fill it- so that makes sense.  About half of the previous bag, or 20 lbs., burned in 10 hours.  That's 2 lbs./hour at a feed rate setting of 4.5.  About 3/4 of a new bag fills the hopper, or about 30 lbs. added.  It's a 55 lbs. hopper and it is full.  So, give or take 5 lbs., it appears that the estimate of 20 lbs. burned with 20 lbs. remaining in the hopper, add about 3/4 of a new 40 lbs. bag or 30 lbs. to fill the hopper and a 55 lbs. hopper is full.

^^ The point is that on the previous timed burn at feed setting 4, we burned 40 lbs. in 22 hours, or 1.8 lbs./hour.  In the 4.5 feed setting burn it appears that we burned about 2 lbs./hour, which is a slight increase.

We are now burning from a completely full hopper at feed setting 4.5, and we'll time this one as well, or at least we'll start timing it.  

Hubs does own a multimeter, so we'll suspend the timed test briefly tomorrow and check the potentiometer.  That should be fairly quick and easy.  Maybe that's where the problem lies!


----------



## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

Sorry it took us a bit to get back to this thread (that I stole.  Sorry OP!)  We've had a family weekend here.  Timed burn on feed setting 4.5 was interrupted a couple of times.  Will get back to that now that weekend is finishing up.

Mr. Sunshine is in the stove innards with his multimeter.  Here are the readings per feed setting:

Potentiometer (rheostat) turned completely off, feed setting OFF:  No reading/off the scale

Potentiometer (rheostat) turned on, feed on, but just barely:  1096 kilo ohms

Potentiometer (rheostat) on Feed Setting 1:  1071 kilo ohms

Potentiometer (rheostat) on Feed Setting 2:   784 kilo ohms

Potentiometer (rheostat) on Feed Setting 3:   606 kilo ohms

Potentiometer (rheostat) on Feed Setting 4:   410 kilo ohms

Potentiometer (rheostat) on Feed Setting 5:   138 kilo ohms

Potentiometer (rheostat) on Feed Setting No Number, dial turn up as high as possible:  56 kilo ohms

So the potentiometer/rheostat appears to be working correctly.  

What next??


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 15, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Sorry it took us a bit to get back to this thread (that I stole.  Sorry OP!)  We've had a family weekend here.  Timed burn on feed setting 4.5 was interrupted a couple of times.  Will get back to that now that weekend is finishing up.
> 
> Mr. Sunshine is in the stove innards with his multimeter.  Here are the readings per feed setting:
> 
> ...


The next question is "Does the on/off ration of the auger change with feed setting?"


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## stoveguy13 (Dec 15, 2013)

count the timing of the auger on all the settings


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## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

Feed setting zero, feed on but just barely:  16 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-16

Feed setting 1:  same as zero, 16 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-16

Feed setting 2:  13 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-13

Feed setting 3:  11 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-11

Feed setting 3.5 according to the brackets painted above the dial number, this is the beginning of the optimal/acceptable feed range: same as feed setting 3, 11 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-11

Feed setting 4, recommended feed setting according to the manual:  9 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-9

Feed setting 4.5 according to the brackets painted above the dial number, this is the top limit of the optimal/acceptable feed range:  8 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-8

Feed setting 5:  6 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-6

Feed setting maximum, dial turned all the way up to stop:  4 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for second 4

Beginning a timed burn at feed level 4.5, upper range of optimal/acceptable as indicated by bracket above feed dial, at 6pm on 12/15/13.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 15, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Feed setting zero, feed on but just barely:  16 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-16
> 
> Feed setting 1:  same as zero, 16 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-16
> 
> ...


So, now we know that the duty cycle of the auger ranges from about 19% to 75% That sounds like a reasonable range. That begs another question; "Is the auger turning at the correct rotational speed?"


----------



## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

I received an auto reply to my initial email to Napoleon customer service, along with a case number.  The auto reply said that I could reply to that email and include/attach any further information and documentation.

I've been responding to that email at intervals over the weekend, sending along all of the information from the timed burns, the potentiometer results, the auger intervals, etc. as we collect that information.

I've not yet received a technical service response from Napoleon- not surprising, it is the weekend- but perhaps we'll hear something next week.

I don't know how to measure the rotational speed of the auger.  The hopper is full right now, but I can wait to measure the rotational speed or I can unload the hopper.  I have seen the auger turning and it appears to turn without binding or distress.  The auger motor sounds completely normal with the hopper full of pellets and will the hopper empty.  It is carrying pellets to the burn pot- at least enough pellets to keep the stove running and producing heat.  But is it turning fast enough during those intervals?  I don't know.  

Thank you again, Harvey and everybody, for your help!


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## chken (Dec 15, 2013)

So, when the augur is running for its 3 secs every cycle, do you see very many pellets falling? Does a different brand of pellet, give you a different result?


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## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

chken said:


> So, when the augur is running for its 3 secs every cycle, do you see very many pellets falling? Does a different brand of pellet, give you a different result?



Chken, the short answer is "Yes."  There are plenty of pellets falling during the turn portion of auger cycle.  When we turn the feed rate up to maximum during the ignition cycle, it will fill the pot almost to full while the igniter heats up to ignite the pellets in the pot.

The owner's manual stipulates that small pellets will affect feed rates and burn times by a factor of plus or minus 20% depending on fuel quality.  The feed rate at feed setting 4 is supposed to be 4 lbs./hour.  We are getting results that vary from 1.8 lbs./hour to 2 lbs./hour at feed setting 4.  This is a 45% - 50% variance from the expected feed rate of 4 lbs./hour- far greater than a 20% variance as allowed by Napoleon's stated parameters.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 15, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> So, now we know that the duty cycle of the auger ranges from about 19% to 75% That sounds like a reasonable range. That begs another question; "Is the auger turning at the correct rotational speed?"


 

agreed, it looks mechanically like the cycles are acceptable and it ohmed out spot on on the range pot. question at hand now is what is the "RPM" of the motor and is it correct for this model stove?

sorry for taking so long to get back in this becca, the weekend has been rather trying. my kindle would not allow me to respond while I was up there I was able to read but not post and it wouldn't download tapatalk (gotta ask webbie about that) wife is doing well, hoping for her to come home Tuesday.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 15, 2013)

stoveguy2esw said:


> agreed, it looks mechanically like the cycles are acceptable and it ohmed out spot on on the range pot. question at hand now is what is the "RPM" of the motor and is it correct for this model stove?
> 
> sorry for taking so long to get back in this becca, the weekend has been rather trying. my kindle would not allow me to respond while I was up there I was able to read but not post and it wouldn't download tapatalk (gotta ask webbie about that) wife is doing well, hoping for her to come home Tuesday.


I did a quick look at auger motors that claim to be compatible with your stove. The one motor that I can see the ratings on is rated for one rpm. 
Other things to consider:

slipping couplings
blockage
auger alignment
If this conversation was under a thread title that referred to the correct stove type you might get input from people with more knowledge of your stove.


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## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

stoveguy2esw said:


> agreed, it looks mechanically like the cycles are acceptable and it ohmed out spot on on the range pot. question at hand now is what is the "RPM" of the motor and is it correct for this model stove?
> 
> sorry for taking so long to get back in this becca, the weekend has been rather trying. my kindle would not allow me to respond while I was up there I was able to read but not post and it wouldn't download tapatalk (gotta ask webbie about that) wife is doing well, hoping for her to come home Tuesday.



That was my FIRST question, Mike- how's your WIFE?  We are so glad to hear that she is doing well and that she will be back home soon.  There is no place like home!

With a little help from our friends we can tear the stove down, get to the auger motor and see if there is a serial number on it.  It won't happen tonight, unfortunately, stove is up, running and hot, and The Hubs is on a conference call sorting out a work problem with a group of coworkers.  He's head's down right now and it seems that they are all in the thick of it, i.e. it won't be over in a minute.

But yeah, so we need to know what motor we have on this auger, and if it's the appropriate motor for this stove, right?


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## SwineFlue (Dec 15, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Feed setting zero, feed on but just barely:  16 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-16
> 
> Feed setting 1:  same as zero, 16 second cycle, auger turns for seconds 1-3, auger is idle for seconds 4-16
> 
> ...



I think these numbers explain what you're seeing, Becca.  The auger duty cycle on feed setting 4.5 is half that of the max setting.  In other words, the very top limit of the "optimal" feed range will run the stove at only half of its rated capacity.


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## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I did a quick look at auger motors that claim to be compatible with your stove. The one motor that I can see the ratings on is rated for one rpm.
> Other things to consider:
> 
> slipping couplings
> ...



I can't comment on the slipped couplings because I have no idea what that means- I can't envision it in my mind, I don't have enough knowledge to draw myself a mental picture.  I can say that the auger sounds and looks like it is running smoothly.

Blockage- no- it's clean as a whistle.  I just cleaned the hopper.  I ran the auger and made sure that I vacuumed the fines out of all the threads.  The auger turned smoothly, without any sounds or visual signs of being jammed or bound.

Alignment- similarly, when the hopper was empty and I could see/hear the visible portion of the auger, it seemed fine to me, no sounds or visual indications of being out of alignment or off-center.  When the hopper is full, the auger motor sounds fine and pellets drop regularly.

We had an auger jam once, when I left pellets in the hopper over the summer (direct vent, no chimney) and the pellets that were in the auger tube jammed up.  With help over the phone from a stove tech, I unjammed the auger and got it running smoothly again.  So, I know what an auger jam sounds like.

About changing the title of the thread, or moving the integral parts of the conversation to an appropriately titled thread, what is the appropriate protocol?  Perhaps one of our friendly mods can help me!


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## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

SwineFlue said:


> I think these numbers explain what you're seeing, Becca.  The auger duty cycle on feed setting 4.5 is half that of the max setting.  In other words, the very top limit of the "optimal" feed range will run the stove at only half of its rated capacity.



I guess that the question now is:  what did the engineers intend?  Did they intend for the stove to meet the feed rate/hour criteria stated in the manual, or did they mean for the stove to do what it is actually doing?  Because both realities can't live in the same stove. 

We are currently running a timed burn at 4.5 with a full 55 lbs. hopper load, to test the actual feed rate at the top of the recommended feed rate setting.


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## SwineFlue (Dec 15, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> I guess that the question now is:  what did the engineers intend?  Did they intend for the stove to meet the feed rate/hour criteria stated in the manual, or did they mean for the stove to do what it is actually doing?  Because both realities can't live in the same stove.
> 
> We are currently running a timed burn at 4.5 with a full 55 lbs. hopper load, to test the actual feed rate at the top of the recommended feed rate setting.


The manual says it will feed 5 pounds per hour (42,500 BTU/hr).   That is probably true at the max setting.   One would assume that setting the dial to 4.5 would give you 80-90% of the max feed rate.   But your timing numbers show that it's only 50%.

I bet you'll get about 2.5 pounds per hour...


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## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

SwineFlue said:


> The manual says it will feed 5 pounds per hour (42,500 BTU/hr).   That is probably true at the max setting.   One would assume that setting the dial to 4.5 would give you 80-90% of the max feed rate.   But your timing numbers show that it's only 50%.
> 
> I bet you'll get about 2.5 pounds per hour...



I'm betting about the same thing, SwineFlue.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 15, 2013)

SwineFlue said:


> I think these numbers explain what you're seeing, Becca.  The auger duty cycle on feed setting 4.5 is half that of the max setting.  In other words, the very top limit of the "optimal" feed range will run the stove at only half of its rated capacity.


Interesting, Is this supposed to be linear:


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## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

All this being said, we have decided NOT to run the stove above the recommended feed range until we get some guidance from Napoleon.


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## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Interesting, Is this supposed to be linear:
> View attachment 120747




Huh.  Look at that.  (Thank you, Harvey!)

OK, I should say, the counts are me sitting beside the stove, counting "One Mississippi, Two Mississippi..."   I did count each cycle a few times to make sure that I was at least counting consistently.

There's always the possibility that I was counting inconsistently, but I would think that I'd count inconsistently, consistently, because we all pretty much do what we do in the manner in which we typically do it.  I.E. I'd have to deliberately syncopate my count to be so notably inconsistent that I'd skew a straight line into a curve.


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## chken (Dec 15, 2013)

I noticed that too, about the increments being non-linear, and I wondered why they'd have a "max" setting that they tell you not to use! I mean, it allows them to spec the unit as having a certain btu capability, then they tell you not to use it? Struck me odd, but I'm new to pellets, so I dunno, maybe that's how they do it?


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## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

Also, this is interesting:

When we start up the stove, we typically start it with the feed rate set on 4.  This feed rate puts enough pellets in the pot for the igniter to light them, and we can walk away from the stove during the start up cycle and not worry about the burn pot overflowing and/or backing up into the drop tube, or worry about the stove over firing if we get called away.  We leave the convection blower OFF until we feel that the air coming out of the heat exchange tubes is very warm. Once the stove warms up, we turn the convection fan to its mid-range setting of about 2.5.  Typically the stove runs along at feed rate 4, convection/room blower fan rate 2.5 with no change in cycle, and no issues, unless we inadvertantly let it run out of pellets or we shut it down. If we aren't standing right beside the stove when it gets hot, we will hear the convection blower override switch trip and the convection blower fan come on at its highest setting.  This is a factory installed/engineer designed safety feature that helps keep the stove from over firing.  If we aren't standing right there during the start up cycle, and we hear the convection fan kick on, we go back to the stove and set the convection fan dial to 2.5.  The convection fan will run on high until the stove is cooled enough to allow the over ride safety feature to drop off.  When that happens, the convection fan will drop down to the speed that we've manually set.  It typically stays right there, with no intervention from a safety feature or over ride, unless we change something.

We've been running the stove on feed rate 4.5, the top of the recommended range, since 6pm, or almost 4.5 hours.  The pellet level in the hopper has dropped by 2".  At a feed rate of 4.5, which is supposed to correspond to 4.5 lbs./hour, for 4.5 hours, we should have burned 20.25 pounds, or 37% of the 55 lbs. of pellets in this hopper.  I would expect more pellets to be gone, i.e. for this hopper to be at least one third empty by now, really, over one third empty, not merely lowered by 2 inches.

BUT- here's the interesting thing- the override switch on the convection/room blower fan has been activated, and the convection fan has been blowing on HIGH even though it is manually set for 2.5, for a couple of hours now.

The stove is putting out heat.  The IR thermometer centered on a center heat exchange tube is registering 300'F.

The flame in the burn pot is bright white, sharp and active.  Dropping pellets cause lots of popcorn sparks (no pellets jumping out of the burn pot, but lots of sparks fly.)  Damper is set on 2 out of five.  The flame has a normal, bright burn and a typical life cycle; it will diminish to bright cinders in the pot, and a few smaller flames, until the auger delivers enough pellets to revive the flame and continue the cycle.  There is absolutely no build up in the pot.  The ash on the door glass is grayish-white.  The stove is burning immaculately right now.  The only thing that's causing me some concern is that the override switch has had the convection fan on high for quite a while now to keep the stove from overheating.

The over fired override switch has NOT been triggered.  The stove has NOT gotten hot enough to shut itself down.

Tonight we are burning a mixture of Turman's and Presto Logs.

Pictures of pellet level at 10:30pm, plus pictures of flame and flame cycle are attached.


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## becasunshine (Dec 15, 2013)

Let the record show that at 11pm, I turned the feed rate from 4.5 lbs./hour to 4 lbs./hour.   I hope that the stove will cool down and that the override switch on the convection fan will drop off before we go to sleep.

Mr. Sunshine is still head's down with work, but we will go to bed eventually.  I don't want to attempt to drift off to sleep thinking about the convection fan override switch being switched ON for hours.


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## Madcodger (Dec 16, 2013)

So, just a quick note to the OP (Gregt823) - What's the status on your stove?  Did you get things resolved?  Questions remaining?


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 17, 2013)

For those who aren't toasty warm with their Mt Vernon AE, I thought that I would post some measurements that I just took.
Outside this morning was 5 deg F, at 7:30 the thermostat did it's program change from 65 deg to 70 deg. The stove was running in manual mode at heat output 3. With room temperature at about 70 near the stove and still 68 at the thermostat the convection output was at 210 deg. I was cold from being outside getting the snow blower ready so I put the heat output to 5. convection output temperature rose to 315 degrees over about a 15 minute period. I am burning Greene Team Platinum.


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## john193 (Dec 17, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> For those who aren't toasty warm with their Mt Vernon AE, I thought that I would post some measurements that I just took.
> Outside this morning was 5 deg F, at 7:30 the thermostat did it's program change from 65 deg to 70 deg. The stove was running in manual mode at heat output 3. With room temperature at about 70 near the stove and still 68 at the thermostat the convection output was at 210 deg. I was cold from being outside getting the snow blower ready so I put the heat output to 5. convection output temperature rose to 315 degrees over about a 15 minute period. I am burning Greene Team Platinum.


I'd be curious to add my results, but, how are you measuring the temp. Can you provide specifics on thermometer placement?


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 17, 2013)

john193 said:


> I'd be curious to add my results, but, how are you measuring the temp. Can you provide specifics on thermometer placement?


I am using a type K thermocouple suspended in the air stream near the middle of the output port. The thermocouple is about 1.5 inches in from the front casting and suspended midway between the upper and lower surfaces of the port. My cheap meter is good to about 1/2 degree F and the thin thermocouple is very fast to respond.
It takes a while for the stove output temperature to stabilize after a change in settings. Both measurements were taken with the inlet air temperature within a few degrees of 70 F.
I am interested in seeing your temperature results.


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## gregt23 (Dec 22, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> P.S. My apologies to gregt23 for hijacking your thread.
> 
> BecaSunshine <----  Thread Thief
> 
> I'm sorry!


No apologies necessary. My thread is your thread. LOL.


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## gregt23 (Dec 22, 2013)

I just wanted to give an update on our new Mt. Vernon insert. After several days of using the stove, it continues to get better and better. After about two weeks of use, it seems to be heating much better. The company we purchased the unit from received some new ultra premium pellets (sorry, I can't remember the brand) and using this new pellet, I was amazed at how much better the stove performed. I was able to turn down the flame level to 0 or +1 and the stove performed amazingly. My entire home is about 2500 square feet and the stove is heating the entire house very nicely. When it gets really cold (around 15 to minus 15 degrees) it works much better when running it on Manual High mode - it heats much better and blows much hotter. Any other time, the Auto setting works fine.
I wanted to thank everyone for their help and the information that you so freely offered to help someone you don't know. This forum is a great help for those of us with little knowledge of these wonderful stoves. Thanks again and I would like to wish everyone a Very Merry Christmas (or whatever you and your family celebrate this time of year, because that is what makes our Country such a beautiful place to call home) and a Happy New Year.
Sincerely,

Greg


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## becasunshine (Dec 30, 2013)

Hello!

I am back to give an update as well, on this thread that I stole from gregt23.  ^^ Waves at Greg!   

Napoleon customer service did respond to my email!  They thanked me for the feedback and for the information, saying that they don't often get feedback from stove shops nor from customers, and they appreciate it.  The customer service rep forwarded all of our tracked data and observations to the design and maintenance engineers. 

Based on our data, the engineers say that the feed rate potentiometer/rheostat is functioning correctly, with the correct resistance readings.  Given that the potentiometer/rheostat is functioning correctly, this would leave the auger control relay as the culprit, and replacing it should address the feed rate issue.

I looked this part up on the Mountain View Hearth Product site.  (LOVE that site- so awesome!)  Visual inspection of the photograph of the part on Mountain View Hearth Product's site reveals schematics that say "3 secs" and ".5-15 secs."  Given that my timing of the auger duty cycle was done via the "One Mississippi, Two Mississippi" method, one can apply the upper and lower limits of intervals described on the schematics for this part to the auger duty intervals I timed with an allowable variation for my less than digital method of counting.

In other words, the schematics drawn on the part, with the corresponding time intervals, seem to match the auger duty/auger off intervals that I counted while observing the stove-  3 seconds of auger "duty" or actual turning time, with non-duty/non-turning intervals in between each turn that last from 0.5 seconds to 15 seconds.  This almost exactly matches the intervals that I counted.

So if the auger duty cycle, as well as the upper and lower limits of the non-duty intervals, matches what I've observed and counted off with our auger, why would I replace this part?  That would be $120 to replace a part that appears to be functioning as expected for at least the auger turning portion of the cycle, and the upper and lower limits of the rest intervals in between.

Of course, there is the sag or dip in the curve plotted for us by Harvey Schneider, so that could explain some lack of feed...  but that dip could also be the result of my less than accurate/scientific method of timing the intervals.

I asked the Napoleon customer service rep to take this observation re: my counted intervals and the schematics on this part back to the engineers and to ask them to reconsider this potential solution.  That was right before Christmas, and I haven't heard anything back yet.  I figured that if I didn't hear anything back by the first or second week in January (allowing for the holidays to pass) that I'd send another email to request more information.

I dunno, what do y'all think?  Is it worth replacing a $120 part that appears to be working correctly, at least according to the intervals as listed on the part?

Here's the part itself:

http://www.stove-parts-unlimited.com/NPI40-and-NPS40-Auger-Control-Relay-p/w190-0019.htm

P.S. Greg, we are happy that your stove is working well for you!


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 30, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Hello!
> 
> I am back to give an update as well, on this thread that I stole from gregt23.  ^^ Waves at Greg!
> 
> ...


It is possibly either the pot or the relay that is giving you the non-linear response. The pot is a much less expensive part to experiment with, and more likely to fail, although I have never seen a pot go from linear to logarithmic as a failure mode. If you do decide to replace the relay you should take a close look at this one:

Infitec TRS51A13S2A

http://controlsourceintl.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=645

At less than half the price of, what appears to be, the same part.
The part number was copied off of the photo on the Napoleon web site. The search for the part took me less than one minute. Unfortunately the the data sheet does not say whether the response to the external pot is linear or inverse logarithmic like your data. Of course, the pot could be a log curve pot, so we would have to know more about that part in order to know what to expect
By the way, your data showed a small irregularity (bump in an otherwise smooth curve), but that curve looked too regular to be a counting rate error. It doesn't take a digital stopwatch to time seconds, any watch or clock with a second hand will do.


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## chken (Dec 30, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Also, this is interesting:
> 
> When we start up the stove, we typically start it with the feed rate set on 4.  This feed rate puts enough pellets in the pot for the igniter to light them, and we can walk away from the stove during the start up cycle and not worry about the burn pot overflowing and/or backing up into the drop tube, or worry about the stove over firing if we get called away.  We leave the convection blower OFF until we feel that the air coming out of the heat exchange tubes is very warm. Once the stove warms up, we turn the convection fan to its mid-range setting of about 2.5.  Typically the stove runs along at feed rate 4, convection/room blower fan rate 2.5 with no change in cycle, and no issues, unless we inadvertantly let it run out of pellets or we shut it down. If we aren't standing right beside the stove when it gets hot, we will hear the convection blower override switch trip and the convection blower fan come on at its highest setting.  This is a factory installed/engineer designed safety feature that helps keep the stove from over firing.  If we aren't standing right there during the start up cycle, and we hear the convection fan kick on, we go back to the stove and set the convection fan dial to 2.5.  The convection fan will run on high until the stove is cooled enough to allow the over ride safety feature to drop off.  When that happens, the convection fan will drop down to the speed that we've manually set.  It typically stays right there, with no intervention from a safety feature or over ride, unless we change something.
> 
> ...


I'm no expert, but if the stove is reacting like it has an over temp situation, then that implies heat is going up the flue? Your comments and pictures indicate a good burn. I've already forgotten, but wasn't the original problem you weren't getting enough heat?

So, on a high feed rate on the dial, but low actual pellet usage, you get a good burn, and an over temp. Does the augur feed rate change when you get the over temp? I'd guess it would go to a very low feed rate if you're getting an over temp situation. If that's the case, then maybe your low feed rate with a high dial setting is due to the stove going into a low feed mode due to high flue temps. Perhaps, the flue needs a thorough cleaning?

[edit]

Relooking at your post, I was wondering, have you tried setting your convection blower on high rather than 2.5? Also, have you considered that maybe you're getting too much air in the burn pot? I know the pellets aren't popping out, but should the flame cycle down and up like that? Sounds like they're burning too fast for the feed rate selected, thus the flame goes down, before the next cycle of pellets. This might explain if the heat is being pushed out the vent, thus triggering your over temp alarm, leading to a slowing of the feed rate.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 30, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Hello!
> 
> I am back to give an update as well, on this thread that I stole from gregt23.  ^^ Waves at Greg!
> 
> ...




Pardon my confusion. With these interlacing threads, I've lost track of exactly what problem you are trying to resolve. Please take the time to clearly and simply state what it is that you need.


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## becasunshine (Dec 30, 2013)

Hi All!

The original problem:  The stove is rated to put out 8500-43,500 BTUs.  (I am at a different location than the stove and its manual right this minute.  Please excuse me if I don't get these numbers exactly right- I'm pulling them from memory.  I know that these numbers, if not absolutely correct for our year of NPS40 stove, are very close.)

The feed rate should be one to five pounds of pellets per hour, corresponding to the numbers painted above the feed rate dial.  The recommended feed rate setting is 4, in which case, the stove should be feeding 4 lbs./hour into the burn pot.  This feed rate would use up a 40 lbs. bag of pellets in 10 hours, or a little over 2 40 lbs. bags in 24 hours.

Per our observations above, at the recommended feed rate setting of 4, our stove takes approximately 22 hours to burn through one 40 lbs. bag of pellets.  It seems unlikely that the stove can produce the BTUs as advertised.  There  are approximately 8300 BTUs in a pound of pellets.  If the stove is burning through one 40 lbs. bag of pellets in 22 hours, then it is burning approximately 1.8 lbs./hour of pellets.  That's 14,940 BTUs/hour at the next to highest feed setting- the dial runs from OFF through 5.  (I think it might turn a little past 5, but I'm not with the stove right now, so I can't swear to that.)  It is recommended in the manual that the stove NOT be run continuously on low or high feed rates, but that it should be run continuously at a feed rate setting of 4.  OK.  And at a feed rate setting of 4, it should be (according to the manual) burning 4 lbs. of pellets per hour, and producing 33,200 BTUs per hour- or over twice as many BTUs as it is apparently producing now, if one uses pellet consumption to calculate BTU production.

I do think that it's interesting to note that even though we are not burning 4 lbs./hour at the feed rate setting of 4, if we bump the stove up to the top of the recommended feed range at 4.5 with good quality pellets, the convection override switch is triggered and the convection fan comes on to help keep the stove from over-heating.  ????

So  yes, we are eyeing the disconnect between the stated feed rates/BTU production in the owner's manual, and our actual experience with the stove's feed rate, burn rate, and the convection blower override switch kicking in at a feed rate of 4.5 with good quality pellets, when the stove is apparently not feeding/burning as many pounds per hour as the stove is supposed to burn.  ???

That being said, we are also eyeing the curved, non-linear graph of the auger on/auger off intervals as plotted by Harvey Schneider.  Perhaps the feed rate is closer to the numbers posted in the owner's manual at feed rate 4.5.  I've not had a chance to time an extended burn at that feed setting.  I'll do that when we get back to town.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 30, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Hi All!
> 
> The original problem:  The stove is rated to put out 8500-43,500 BTUs.  (I am at a different location than the stove and its manual right this minute.  Please excuse me if I don't get these numbers exactly right- I'm pulling them from memory.  I know that these numbers, if not absolutely correct for our year of NPS40 stove, are very close.)
> 
> ...



Okay, I'm up to speed now.
This is my take on what I now know:

The manual says that the feed rate runs from 1 to 5. I did not see anywhere in the manual that those numbers correspond to pounds per hour. That may be a reasonable assumption but it may not be correct.
The stove is specified to consume a range of BTU input, but it doesn't say that it can do that continuously.
 If you are running a high feed rate you probably need to have the convection fan running at a high rate in order to avoid overheat, That may be why the max fan mode is kicking on automatically. It is desirable, from an efficiency point of view, to run the convection blower at the highest speed that your ears will tolerate.
So the long and short of what I am saying is that Napoleon has played a specsmanship game that led you to expect more from the stove than it is capable of. That happens all the time in specifying the capabilities of electrical and mechanical equipment. The specs aren't lies (even though it may seem that way), but they may not all apply at the same time and they may not apply all the time.
An example of this last statement is that the stove cannot produce it's maximum heat output if it is running at the minimum convection fan speed. That is true of most stoves, they will overheat if you try to run them that way. Similarly, they may be capable of putting out max BTUs only for limited times or only if the input air is cold otherwise they may overheat.
So although your stove doesn't do what you want it to, I don't necessarily think that it needs fixing.


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## Madcodger (Dec 31, 2013)

And...  8,000+ BTUs assume max efficiency.  You'll never achieve that, as heat going up the chimney is heat produced but not used.  I'd say we're lucky to achieve 70% in real world conditions, so that has to be considered.  If you're in the 1 - 1.3 / day bag range in VA right now, I'd say you're OK.  I love data, but there's a limit to its practical use sometimes.


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## becasunshine (Dec 31, 2013)

I am still not in the same location as the stove and the manual, but IIRC, my manual does state that the feed rate settings 1-5 correspond to feed rates of 1-5 lbs./hour.   I'll see if I can find a link online.

Generally we run the convection fan at about mid-range.  I can run it higher if we need to do so; the stove is in one corner of the house and is not in the room in which we tend to watch t.v., listen to music, etc.

Harvey Schnieder and Madcodger, you have hit upon the essence of the matter:  is the stove operating consistent with and true to design?  If it is- then it is not putting out the BTUs as advertised, period.  I know that we have been given a range of heat outputs and that rarely is any piece of machinery designed to operate flat out, with no reserve, all the time.  My point is,  the manual says that the stove is capable of ~ 42k - 43k BTU output, and at the recommended feed setting it should, according to the manual, be feeding 4 lbs./hour and thus putting out 8300 BTUs X 4 lbs./hour, 33200 BTUs.   Instead, at feed rate setting 4, our stove is burning 1.8 lbs./hour and, based on pellet consumption, it is putting out 14,940 BTUs per hour.  That's less than half of what one would expect, based on the pounds/hour corresponding to the feed rate settings listed in the owner's manual.  Houston, we have a problem.  Even if I lop 25% heat production off of both of those BTU output estimates, the fact remains:  pellets burned = BTU output, and it the stove cannot feed and burn the advertised pounds of pellets per hour, then it virtually cannot produce the amount of heat that it is advertised as producing.

Now, two factors we have inadvertently discovered:

Harvey demonstrated that our auger duty vs. auger rest cycles do not produce a linear graph.  In fact, the duty vs. rest time cycles produce a curved graph.  Is our auger control relay not operating consistently or as expected in the mid-range feed settings?  This could explain why the stove needs to cut on the convection fan to prevent over-heating at the higher feed settings:  auger control relay operating as expected in the higher ranges, at the terminal end of that graphed curve, auger time intervals as designed at that point on the feed dial and on that graphed curve, more pellets making it into the burn pot, stove burning hotter.  I'm parsing out whether it's worth replacing that part to find out.  I don't really have an answer to that question, because short of hauling a stove tech with some sort of computer diagnostic capability out to our stove, I don't really know what the auger control relay is doing in the middle of the cycles.  I'm betting that I can buy the Napoleon branded auger control relay from Mountain View Hearth Products for about the same amount of money that I'd pay for a diagnostic visit. I say with certainty, however, that at feed setting 4, this stove is putting about 1.8 lbs./hour in the pot.  That's not 4 lbs./hour on the best day.

Harvey, thank you for finding that alternate part.  We are not electrical engineers and I'm a little confused by the spec sheet on that part.  Do we have to set the time intervals with that part?  Given that I've engaged the engineers at Napoleon, I think I prefer sticking with Napoleon branded parts.  In this way, if we replace that auger control relay and the stove performs exactly as it performs now, there will be no question around whether we used the right replacement part.

When I get back to town, I can do a timed burn at feed setting 4.5 to see how many hours it takes to empty the hopper.  We have about 40 lbs. in there now.  The hopper was empty (as in, see the auger empty) when The Hubs dumped the last bag into the hopper- and IIRC, he did not top the hopper off with additional pellets.  At any rate, I can do a timed burn with 40 lbs. pellets at feed setting 4.5 to see how many pounds/hour that setting burns.   Perhaps we will find that, indeed, the correlation is not linear.  This could confirm the curve on the graph that Henry Schneider created- and it could be a confirming fact that points us toward replacing that auger control relay.

At feed rate setting 4.5 with the convection fan set at 2.5 (mid-way through the dial) the convection fan override switch will, at times, come on and stay on, to prevent a stove over fire.  So either the stove is feeding many more pellets at feed rate setting 4.5 thus again confirming a curved graph with a steep terminal rise, or, alternately, the stove is simply not designed to handle the higher feed rate pounds/hour as listed in the manual.  The fan comes on at the higher settings as designed, to keep the stove from over firing.  The stove was never designed to handle the pounds per hour that correspond to the numbers on the dial.  ???  That could explain why we are cautioned not to run the stove for extended amounts of time on a feed rate higher than 4 - even though there is a bracket painted above the feed rate dial, and that bracket spans the area between feed rate 3.5 and feed rate 4.5.  The bracket is never explained, nor mentioned in text, in the manual, although it is visible on the photograph of the feed rate dial.

So, is my stove operating as designed, but not consistently with the performance as stated in the owner's manual, or is my stove NOT operating as designed?  And if not, why not?  And how do we fix that?


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 31, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> at the recommended feed setting it should, according to the manual, be feeding 4 lbs./hour


In the manual I found on line, it states that the stove can burn 1 to 5 pounds per hour. It also shows settings of 1 to 5 on the feed rate. There is no statement that the two are directly and linearly connected. One would expect that they have to align at the two ends of the scales, but there is no claim that the numbers on the dial are, in fact, pounds per hour. You can get more pounds per hour by turning the dial up, but you will probably need to increase the convection fan setting to keep the stove temperature reasonable.
Is it so important that the numbers align with the pounds per hour consumed? If you can get stable operation with some combination of feed rate and convection speed you are getting the performance the stove is capable of. I really don't think that changing the pot or relay is going to make a difference other than changing the dial position slightly.
The circuit that is used there is simply a two state time delay relay that is programmed by the pot for off time (fixed on time of three seconds). There isn't any computer diagnostic that is going to interface with that. By the way, the original manufacturer's label and part number for the relay are visible in the photo on the Napoleon web site.


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## chken (Dec 31, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> At feed rate setting 4.5 with the convection fan set at 2.5 (mid-way through the dial) the convection fan override switch will, at times, come on and stay on, to prevent a stove over fire.  So either the stove is feeding many more pellets at feed rate setting 4.5 thus again confirming a curved graph with a steep terminal rise, or, alternately, the stove is simply not designed to handle the higher feed rate pounds/hour as listed in the manual.  The fan comes on at the higher settings as designed, to keep the stove from over firing.  The stove was never designed to handle the pounds per hour that correspond to the numbers on the dial.  ???  That could explain why we are cautioned not to run the stove for extended amounts of time on a feed rate higher than 4 - even though there is a bracket painted above the feed rate dial, and that bracket spans the area between feed rate 3.5 and feed rate 4.5.  The bracket is never explained, nor mentioned, in the manual.



1) When the convection fan override comes on, does the augur still pour pellets into the pot, at the same rate? Does the augur stop or does it run at its lowest setting?

2) You say that the convection fan override comes on at feed rate setting 4.5, is it at all possible that it is also coming on at feed rate setting 4.0, but that you haven't witnessed it, as it takes more time to occur?

If that's the case, then perhaps, your 2lbs/hr feed rate is due to the stove slowing or stopping its feed rate, intermittently, due to high flue temps. You could be getting 4lbs/hr initially, but when the override occurs, the feed rate drops or stops, resulting in an average rate of 2lbs/hr.

You could address this by raising your convection fan rate from 2.5 to something higher. Also, you mentioned your flame is white, and leaves no ash in the pot, and that the flame drops in height as the pellets burn up. It seems to me that the pellets are burning too fast for the feed rate, indicating perhaps that you have too much combustion air, leading to heat going up the vent, which triggers the convection fan override. I would try lowering the combustion air.

Regardless, there is something occurring as your convection fan override indicates. Resolving that, may fix whatever feed rate issues you have.


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## becasunshine (Dec 31, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> In the manual I found on line, it states that the stove can burn 1 to 5 pounds per hour. It also shows settings of 1 to 5 on the feed rate. There is no statement that the two are directly and linearly connected. One would expect that they have to align at the two ends of the scales, but there is no claim that the numbers on the dial are, in fact, pounds per hour. You can get more pounds per hour by turning the dial up, but you will probably need to increase the convection fan setting to keep the stove temperature reasonable.
> Is it so important that the numbers align with the pounds per hour consumed? If you can get stable operation with some combination of feed rate and convection speed you are getting the performance the stove is capable of. I really don't think that changing the pot or relay is going to make a difference other than changing the dial position slightly.
> The circuit that is used there is simply a two state time delay relay that is programmed by the pot for off time (fixed on time of three seconds). There isn't any computer diagnostic that is going to interface with that. By the way, the original manufacturer's label and part number for the relay are visible in the photo on the Napoleon web site.



Harvey, you are *EXACTLY* right.  In no place in the manual does it state that the feed rate in pounds/hour will correspond, linearly or number to number, with the feed rate settings as seen on the feed rate dial.  Well that's what I get for "assuming."

I guess that I have been wed to the idea that at the recommended feed rate setting of 4, the stove is burning 4 lbs./hour and we are getting 32,800 BTU's/hour out of it.  BTW, I have amended that optimistic output number because the manual states 8200 BTUs/pound minimum output per pound of pellets.

Another interesting hint that the numbers on the feed rate dial may not directly correspond to pounds of pellets burned per hour:  the stove is rated to produce 8500 BTUs to 42,500 BTUs.  These lower and upper range figures do not directly correspond to 1 lb./hour = 8200 BTUs/hour and 5 lbs./hour = 41,000 BTUs/hour, which would be the correlation if the numbers on the dial indicated a direct pound/hour feed rate.

SO THERE.  The stove is apparently doing what it is designed to do, and it does correlate with the manual.  I need to stop inserting my assumptions between the lines in that manual.  Thank you, Harvey Schneider, for walking me through the logic...  you saved us from replacing a $120 part that is, most likely, doing exactly what it is supposed to do.


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## becasunshine (Dec 31, 2013)

chken said:


> 1) When the convection fan override comes on, does the augur still pour pellets into the pot, at the same rate? Does the augur stop or does it run at its lowest setting?
> 
> 2) You say that the convection fan override comes on at feed rate setting 4.5, is it at all possible that it is also coming on at feed rate setting 4.0, but that you haven't witnessed it, as it takes more time to occur?
> 
> ...



The convection fan override switch trigger does not appear to affect the feed rate, nor the auger turning.   Huh.  Do the stoves have a convection fan override associated with the flue temps?  The manual for the NPS40 (I found our owner's manual online, thus I can refer to it from where I am now) says that the convection fan over ride switch responds to the temperature at the back of the fire box:


*"BLOWER OVER-RIDE SWITCH:
*
Your heater is equipped with a convection blower that circulates

hot air into your room. This switch will automatically turn the blower

on, when the temperature at the back of the fi re box reaches a certain

temperature. The blower can cycle from your desired setting

to maximum speed depending on the feed rate. When the heater

cools back down, the blower will return to the initial setting.

Also here, and this is where the note about operating the stove at the optimal feed setting of 4 is recommended:

*Blower Speed Dial
*
By adjusting the Blower Speed dial you will vary the rate of airfl ow

into the room by varying the speed of the convection blower. When

you fi rst start the heater, it should be placed in the "OFF" position

in order to heat up the unit as quickly as possible. Once the room

has come up to temperature, the control may be set to a comfortable

level.

*NOTE: *The convection blower may cycle to high automatically

depending on the setting of the pellet feed rate and the Blower

Speed. This is a normal safety feature of the unit. Once the heater

has cooled down the blower will return to the set speed.

*WARNING: IT IS NOT RECOMMENDED TO BURN THE UNIT


ON LOW OR HIGH. THE MOST EFFICIENT SETTING IS 4


(OPTIMUM)."*


The safety feature to which you are referring, I believe, is the high limit switch, described here:

*"HIGH LIMIT SWITCH:
*
Your heater is equipped with a high limit switch. In the event that

the temperature of the heater approaches an unsafe operating

temperature, this switch will shut down the pellet feed, which will

eventually shut down the unit. If this happens, it is important to fi nd

out why the unit overheated. Contact your local dealer."

This feature will stop the pellet feed.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 31, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> output number because the manual states 8200 BTUs/pound minimum output per pound of pellets.


Most fuel burning appliances including my two stoves only spec the *input* BTU rating. Most pellet stoves have an efficiency of 76% (that is what the EPA assumes) some like my MVAE are rated higher (83.6%). Those efficiency ratings are best case scenario and you will hardly ever see them.
All that aside, I think if you increase your convection setting some and nudge the feed rate up until the stove produces a comfortable amount of heat you will be okay. From my reading of the manual, I think it is okay to let the fan high speed kick on and off as needed. I would not run the stove in a condition where the fan high speed is always on, because that is close to over fired. There is still an over fire limit switch (I didn't check your model, but I haven't seen a stove design without one) that will shut the stove down if there is an over fire condition.


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