# Insulate 1st -- Maybe Not?



## jebatty (Jan 10, 2015)

I've begun to question a little the idea of insulate and seal first, then add the wood gasification or pellet boiler with storage, especially in areas with high energy cost. Suppose a person has $15,000 available for energy/envelope upgrades. The money could be spent on additional insulation, air leak sealing, windows, doors, etc. and the energy savings from the inefficient, expensive energy boiler could be saved up and later add the new wood gasification or pellet boiler with storage. Or the person could replace the inefficient, expensive energy boiler, immediately get all the heat and comfort needed, save substantial amounts in energy costs, and then use those savings to complete additional insulation, air leak sealing, windows, doors, etc. over the subsequent years.

The incentive for the new boiler first is the glamor, excitement and high visibility of the boiler; probably much more attractive from a consumer point of view, vs. the often unseen, boring insulation, etc. I think in my case I would be more attracted to the new boiler scenario than the insulation scenario, and I still likely would move forward on the insulation after the new boiler because I would be seeking further energy/cost savings following the excitement from the dramatic savings from the new boiler.


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## Jerry_NJ (Jan 10, 2015)

I agee, I replaced my 21 year old geothermal heat pump last November... and it is working even better than the very good original.  I replaced mainly because key components were no longer available for repairs (I know the compressor had to go this year or next).. then I noticed the 30 year old double glass Anderson could stand to be replaced... in fact one was stating to see the glass separating from the frame, I couldn't get it compressed back in.  I put caulk in to fill gaps an then used the inside plastic sheet to cover the whole window..so far it is working better than expected, it blocks air leak and has large air space to help the glass insulate.  And, it was easy to install and with the shrink done with a hair dryer the sheet is almost invisible.  In fact my wife, who doesn't know I did the job, hasn't even noticed.  The country curtains cover the top and edges and the lower edge stuck to the sill isn't very noticeable. I may do more windows.  Cost only a $3 or so a window.  Yep I suppose good for only one year but worked better than having one or more new windows installed during the winter.  My point? The cost of the new heat pump was more than enough to replace all our windows with the newer true insulated glass, maybe the three layers on the North and West sides.  As for air leaks, i need air to run the fireplace insert, and when in heat pump mode, at least 16 hours of the day, there is no fire burning so now air being drawn in  to feed the fire.  

I figure running my wood stove (insert) starting at 10 PM, final load in at 12 PM, keeps the HP off for about 8 hours during the most demanding part of the heating load... yes some of the house gets down toward 60 degrees, but the ground loop, two 250' vertical loops gets a chance to warm up all around.. both run deeply into the water table which must start at about 50' or less.  I pump from a 100' deep well and never have problems with getting water even in a drought. 

Bla, bal... just a stream about heating on a cold January night : )
'


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## laynes69 (Jan 11, 2015)

We upgraded from an old inefficient wood furnace to a high efficiency model before considering insulation and air sealing, thinking we were good in those departments. What we found almost right away was we had serious amounts of air leakage, and inadequate insulation. Our old furnace chewed thru the wood and the house stayed warm, it was just covering the underlying problems. We struggled to keep the house warm with the new furnace, it just couldn't keep up. It wasn't until I went into our attic from the roof access when it was in the 20's outside, the attic was warm, probably 50 degrees. I found 3" of cellulose, and when pulling it up at the interior partition walls, I found 32 cavities stuffed with loose fiberglass that were open, equal to a 6' diameter hole. I found many areas in the basement and so on. In the end we airsealed, added 12" of insulation and it's a new house. Since I did everything, maybe $750 or so in cost. In the end, I should have airsealed and insulated first. When we first installed the new furnace, we couldn't keep the house at 68° when it was in the mid 20's. Now the other day it was -5° with windchills aproaching 40 below and the house was 72°. We used to burn 8 to 10+ cord of wood a year plus 200 gallons of propane, where now I'm looking at 5 or so. It's quite the difference.


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## woodgeek (Jan 11, 2015)

Dealers choice.  I switched my heat source before I completed by envelope work.

The only issue is if the insulation work could allow you to buy a smaller (and thus cheaper, smaller, etc) boiler.

In my case I added a HP to an oil boiler (dual fuel setup), then did the envelope work to reduce loads to the point the HP could carry things solo (most of the time) and then ditched the boiler.


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## begreen (Jan 11, 2015)

The old boiler is paid for. Insulation is going to start paying back right away, winter and summer. It's not as glamorous but that is where I would invest first. It has the longest lifespan (the life of the house). Then put the saving for a few years toward the boiler which will have a finite lifespan. FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if the insulation came to well below $15K. Caulking, door seals etc. can be DIY. Windows, if decent would probably have the lowest ROI.


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## woodgeek (Jan 11, 2015)

This is all hypothetical...he has the cash to do both.  Go buy a new boiler Jim!  $$$$


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## begreen (Jan 11, 2015)

LOL. I would get the insulation done and live with it for a year. It will set a baseline by which to measure the contribution of the new boiler. Of course, the inverse would also be true, but it won't help with summer air conditioning if they do that in MN. Or do they just let the walls thaw out for cooling?


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## woodgeek (Jan 11, 2015)

I agree....insulation is invisible and not all shiny like a new boiler, but it can make your house a lot more comfortable.


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## begreen (Jan 11, 2015)

Good insulation will pay back for the life of the house 365/24/7. The boiler for maybe 20 years?


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## woodgeek (Jan 11, 2015)

Or 8 years, if you decide to replace your working 2007 Tarm Solo in 2015.  $$$$


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 11, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> The only issue is if the insulation work could allow you to buy a smaller (and thus cheaper, smaller, etc) boiler.
> 
> .



Exactly WG   You dont know what size heating system you need until you can calculate the heat load. Buying an OVERSIZED System may be inefficient and cycle too much and more expensive to maintain and repair. The insulation may SIGNIFICANTLY reduce your heatload. A good reason to do the insulation first.if possible.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 11, 2015)

That is one of the big perks of storage.  If you oversize it doesnt hurt you.  Then you just stretch how long it lasts as you insulate.


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## Circus (Jan 12, 2015)

Every site is different. Efficiency may beat doubling insulaton. It wont beat insulating an uninsulated space or holes.


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## DickRussell (Jan 13, 2015)

More food for thought, a current thread at GBA: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...placing-furnace-can-make-you-less-comfortable

I, too, vote for improving the shell first, then replacing the heating system, right-sizing it after a good heat loss calculation has been done for the improved shell.


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## ihookem (Jan 15, 2015)

The best furnace can't make a leaky house cozy. I see it all the time when someone gets a new furnace to save money but won't spend money on insulation. SOmetimes I can see outside light when I'm in the basement. No sense to me why people buck insulation.


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## jeffesonm (Jan 15, 2015)

Sooooooooo......... which boiler are you going to get


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## sesmith (Jan 16, 2015)

I think this article on heating load pretty much explains why starting with improvements to the building envelope first, makes the most sense, especially  if there is an existing heating system that works.  

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...science/three-types-heating-and-cooling-loads

Once some of the basics are done, then there has to be some balance between spending more money on insulation and sealing vs spending on the heating system, but there's not much point in sizing a new heating system first and decreasing the heating load later, only to find it's way oversized.


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## Mike Fromme (Jan 18, 2015)

If you are burning oil or gas and have access to fire wood to cut I think it makes sense to do a wood boiler first. 

No matter how well you insulate a typical house once you shut the oil or gas off the house will revert to the outside temps in ~48 hours.

So if you've got the money to put in a boiler you can have a near zero ongoing heating bill immediately. And have the principal paid off in 3-4 years. You are not going to see that payback with insulation.


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## Dune (Jan 20, 2015)

Frankly I agree with Jim's premise, at least in my own case.
I bought this drafty poorly built home almost 20 years ago.
The first few years I spent an average of $40 every weekend on one fixer up project or another. 
Finally real life and other projects became forefront. 
When the cost of heating became too high due to the increase in oil costs I installed my boiler. 
Using the money saved by not buying oil, I was then able to do the major upgrades that my $40 per week budget had never allowed. 

Being an old crappy house, the upgrades are never ending and in fact have now come full circle, i.e., the front door I replaced 19 years ago now needs to be replaced again.

I think the CW is correct in general but individual circumstances may dictate a different approach.


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## peakbagger (Jan 22, 2015)

I always push insulate first as for most installations the HVAC should be sized to the ultimate load of the house. If its bought prior to insulation and air sealing it will be oversized. This is not as applicable to a boiler. The other caveat is that its amazing the progress being made on wood heating equipment, the longer you delay the better the equipment could be (until the EPA goes ahead and bans wood burning appliances)


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## begreen (Jan 22, 2015)

To my knowledge, there is no nor has there ever been a wood burning appliance ban proposed by the EPA. The only bans that have been discussed or proposed are at the state level. Even the current proposed new EPA wood burning regs have been forced by lawsuits by the states.


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