# Help with gw 100 boiler



## docgogo (Feb 6, 2008)

i hope i am posting to the right place. i purchased a gw 100 don't seem to have enough draw have 30" horizontal run 8-6 reducer single wall pipe 24" pipe to 6" elbow then vertical run 5' to draft inducer then 12" of double wall metal bestos pipe with cap. gw would like for me to believe the boiler is not drawing correctly secondary to difference in temps of single wall pipe. i wrapped single wall pipe with glass wool. boiler temp usually runs around 140 deg.wood just smolders  uless i'm feeding it split wood. yes i am burning dry wood. have tried all kinds. don't buy the temp differences in single wall pipe. today it was 50 deg. in ky. can't get stove above 140 deg. unless start burning split wood. i sure would like some help gw is basically worthless for customer service. even thought of talking to atty general but would prob laugh me off. also can't find a manometer no one in my area even know what one is. any help would be greatly appreciated. spent arount 16,000 would love for this thing tow work correctly.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Feb 6, 2008)

You're going to need to find out what the actual draft is.  Any technician that services heating equipment should have a draft gauge.

Joe


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## tigermaple (Feb 6, 2008)

Is your damper opening completely? Any ash in the air intact tubes?


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 6, 2008)

Welcome to the Boiler Room, docgogo. I think you came to the right place.


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## sixroses (Feb 6, 2008)

How are your aquastat temps set. My GW 100 is set with 190 limit and 20 degree differential working great at 10 degrees. If you can find the right person at GW they can help.
Steve


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 6, 2008)

docgogo said:
			
		

> gw is basically worthless for customer service



Been there, done that. Frustrating isn't it??

1)Accept the fact that GW sucks at customer service.
2)Rely on the manual and some good advice found on this forum

First off, check your draft . . . don't do the "I think . . ." thing. Once you have that correct, we can talk about your setup and probably get you enough suggestions to get you burning. BTW, the learning curve is a bit long on these, so don't give up.


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## sparke (Feb 6, 2008)

I have a boiler very similar to your GW.  Trust me they burn green wood and big rounds just fine! I have problems getting rid of all the heat.   Post back with the info everyone has requested and I am sure all the good folks here can figure it out...


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## sparky1961 (Feb 6, 2008)

docgoge  u say u have 12' of chimney is that correct  u should have a min of 18' for a good draft . With out proper draft this boiler will not run right at all


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## docgogo (Feb 6, 2008)

thanks for the post. i have 12' of double wall and approx 5' of single wall with a draft inducer installed. maybe not enough. i make sure the air tubes for the draft are clean. and the damper is working properly. also aquastat is set at 180 degrees. trouble is unless i'm there feeding small wood . once i get the boiler to 170-180 deg i put a large piece of wood usually white oak well seasoned for at least  12 months in approx 3 hrs my stove temps are down to 140 deg. and the wood is smoldering . thanks keith


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## sparke (Feb 7, 2008)

Not trying to insult your fire making abilities but... It sounds like you are not starting up properly. It sounds like the firebox is not getting hot enough before you add the round. If you are starting from scratch it takes a while to get the refractory up to temp... Try this - Load the firebox with 2 dry splits North to South on outside edges of firebox(drop in by hand so you dont hit the back refractory). On top of that east to west - lots of newspaper, kindling, 4 dry splits. On top of that - add a layer of small rounds. If it is warm out stop here and refill with bigger rounds when you have a good fire/coals. If it is below freezing, fill her up with bigger rounds as last layer. After it is all loaded start the fire. This should last 6 - 12 hours depending on variables. I.E. wood type, temps outside, etc...After established fire, you may want to try at least 2 pieces of wood at a time. 1 round will not burn well by itself unless refractory is up to temp and you have a good deep bed of coals. This type of boiler starts different then a wood stove or other boilers... You want to pre-load the whole box before you even start the fire... Once you get the hang of the way it burns you can start to play around with the type/amount wood you can burn. When I am home I only throw 2 or 3 small rounds at a time. My system overheats less and burns cleaner. Damn , I need to get working on that water storage


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## sparke (Feb 7, 2008)

As I looked back at  your original post I notice one other thing.  These types of boilers put out ALOT of heat.  50* are horrible conditions to run this beast.  When I run above freezing I have to use small loads of small wood or I overheat and draft totally sucks.  With those types of temps I think you may want to revert to IseeDeadbtu's approach.  Burning short hot fires.  To me the GW type boiler is awesome in cold climates but not the right choice boiler for a mild climate.  Not sure where Kentucky falls in terms of median temps but I suspect fairly mild?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 7, 2008)

The only chick I ever knew from KY was hot, hot, hot . . . but she was a fireman's wife, afterall ;-) 

Not to disagree with Sparke, but . . . if it's warm outside, you are not going to have trouble getting the GW to 190, at least not because of the outside temp. Stick to the basics

1)Quit quessing on draft. Measure it!
2)You may need to use small rounds and/or splits to get the beast going. IMO, until you get used to this unit you may find you don't want to add the big rounds until the damper closes and you have a bed of coals.
3)Have you measured the wood's MC?


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## antknee2 (Feb 7, 2008)

Looking at the problem from a different point of view could you possibly have to much load for this boiler ? Are your heat exchanger tubes clean especially the hidden vertical tubes in back?? Do you have any idea of your flue temperature{ internal thermometer } ?? Anthony


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 7, 2008)

In a similar vein to Anthony's ponderings . . .

What are you doing with the water produced? For example, if you were using  a 50-plate HX or too big of a pump, you could be overwhelming the GW. Another possibility . . . I have a 1200[]+ basement slab with pex. If I were to suddenly say I wanted to warm up the basement multiple degrees at once, that would put a hurt on the GW's water temp. Concrete sucks the heat outa water. Don't know if any of this applys to your situation . . .

More basics . . .

1)From the back of the GW, look down all 4 air tubes. *Completely* clean?
2)Can you actually get the GW up to temp using smaller rounds (2" will heat amazingly well, specially when its 30+ outside) and/or splits?
3)You said it burns better with splits . . . are these splits of the same white oak that won't burn as rounds? (BTW, red and/or white oak burn GREAT in the GW)
4)What do you have coming out of the stack?


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## docgogo (Feb 8, 2008)

has anyone ever heard of a (negative) -2 draft with a draft inducer running?


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## sparke (Feb 8, 2008)

Are you measuring above or below the inducer?  Try measuring below it...


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 9, 2008)

C'mon Doc, I'm actually awake and paying attention now! Readings, please!  

Take your readings between the GW and the fan:

1)Fan off; damper closed (assuming it ever closes)
2)Fan off; damper open
3)Fan on; damper closed (not sure why you'd ever want that scenario under normal operating conditions)
4)Fan on; damper open

BTW, what meter are you using?

Jimbo


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## antknee2 (Feb 9, 2008)

IMPORTANT NOTE: The Greenwood Furnace requires draft measuring between
.05” and .07” WC (water column) (12.45 – 17.44 Pascals), measured with a
manometer or similar device. Draft less than .05” will starve the fire of oxygen and
cause it to burn dirty (i.e., produce smoke and creosote). Draft more than .07” will
feed too much oxygen to the fire, causing it to over-fire and burn at less than
optimum efficiency.


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 9, 2008)

That's interesting. Draft is something I never think about, but it makes sense that with a natural draft design, it would be an important consideration.

I have instruments for measuring my wood mc, temps at various places and my blood pressure, but no idea of my draft.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 9, 2008)

:coolhmm:


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 9, 2008)

I deleted the pic, Jimbo. Nothing wrong with another pretty girl, but I guess I have to draw the line somewhere, and perhaps pics unrelated to wood boilers, furnaces, etc. is as good a place as any. Photos of cars, boats, girlfriends, family and other unrelated stuff falls into this category as well.

So that's the new guideline. I appreciate everyone's cooperation and understanding.


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## webbie (Feb 9, 2008)

I second that emotion. Pics are better by email. Otherwise we have teat for tat - so to speak. Our lady friends will be posting chipendales and some beefy underpants ads, and I know we will be not appreciate that.

So we'll keep the Rigid ads on the plumbing supply back room walls for now.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 9, 2008)

LOL, no sweat, guys ;-)  Those Chipendales poster people pizz me off anyway . . . How do they get those guys' faces on my body, put it in a pic, and not give me credit?!? I should be rich instead of trying to make money the old fashioned way :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 9, 2008)

Oh, (trying to pull off a NoFo here) BTW, How'z our beleagured GW guy? It's about to drop to -15 windchill in 24 hours. . .now's not the time to have trouble with your unit.

Are we back on track now? :roll:


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## docgogo (Feb 10, 2008)

update i added another stick of double wall pipe i now have 5   3' sticks of double wall pipe with 4.5 ' of single wall pipe below it i fixed my horizontal run now 8-6 reducer 18" single wall then an elbow. fire is building faster now have not had the draft measured again. probable will do that next week. by the way measured draft with damper open fan off 0 draft fan on -2 thats what was confusing me. he says it is a manometer that connects to his meter. i built a fire much like the suggestions of course small stuff then progressing to larger diameter stayed at 200 degerees for about 4 hrs. went to bed the gw was at 175 deg. two 14-15" logs on a bed of white hot fire and coals got up a 5 am still two very large logs smoldering air holes in the back are clean just cleaned out the ashes yesterday. when i am having the draft measured how big of a fire should i have the book says start a fire and wait 20-25 min. i got a pretty good fire going but of course not as good as i would have in 30-45 min. woud it skew the results if i had a hotter fire. sincere thanks to all who has tried to help me. i am at the point i wish gw had a return policy i have spent a fortune gw is actually trying to make it look like they are helping me but they haven't done much so far. 



where my boiler is over the hill  behind my house with trees surrounding it the closest on is probably about 25' away i hope i don't have to take out that tree would involve a lot of climbing. 
have also toyed with the idea of moving my boiler but would probably cost several thousand dollars.


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## sparke (Feb 10, 2008)

Dont get discouraged.  These types of boilers are awesome once you get the bugs out.  You never answered the question - where did you measure draft - above or below inducer?  I just installed a draft inducer.  My boiler worked great before even at .04 draft.  Now I set it at .06 with the inducer and the boiler performs even better!  Try running the inducer at full speed.  If you dont have a draft gauge - watch the pipe temps (supposed to be internal pipe temp readings - not a magnet thermometer).  Stack temps should be 250* - 350* if the unit is not in idle mode...  When I had a low draft my pipe readings where around 200* Eliminate one problem at a time.  It does sound like a draft issue at this point...   Keep us posted.


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## antknee2 (Feb 10, 2008)

Sounds like your on the right track , the most important thing with any natural draft boiler is have a dedicated manometer and stack thermometer permanently in place . With the instruments in place it takes some of the mystery out of the equation . Do not give up on your Greenwood they are pure heat producing machines if you get the draft to pull through at he right speed and if you keep the heat exchanger tubes clean even the inaccessible vertical tubes in back of the boiler . Ever since I cleaned the vertical tubes in the back their is a huge reduction of wood used and very fast recharge of the three 120 gallon storage tanks , wish I had more storage . I also found way better results with primary aquastat set at 190 f and a 25 degree deferential. Keep us updated . Anthony

http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/pressure/ManometerIntroduction.cfm

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Woodstove-Corner/Woodstove-Thermometer/Flue-Gas-Thermometer


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## henfruit (Feb 10, 2008)

hey sparke how do you set it at 06 with inducer? i put mine on low and still pull.10. anthony how did you get into the side of the boiler to expose the pipes? i cleaned my to pipes with scaper i made,still tough to get the top row that well. i also took off the back bottom where the smoke pipe is, that was quite full of soot and creosote. i was wondering if those creosote removing logs would help?


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## docgogo (Feb 10, 2008)

i'm not sure if you saw my post where my boiler is located close to some trees etc. do i need a cap? i bought one but not sure if that could be part of the problem .


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## sparke (Feb 10, 2008)

Henfruit, I replaced the stock rheostat with a fan rheostat that spins the fan at lower RPM's. With the stock rheostat I had more then .10 at its lowest setting. It draws less amperage now too. 

Docgogo, DO NOT USE A CAP. You should find that in your owners manual...  For anyone that needs a draft inducer, check ebay.  I got mine for $66.00 brand new.  They usually cost over $200.


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## antknee2 (Feb 10, 2008)

Good point about the cap , Fred Seton said if you feel you need a cap use a open design like a Shanty cop ,very low cost .


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## antknee2 (Feb 10, 2008)

henfruit said:
			
		

> anthony how did you get into the side of the boiler to expose the pipes? i cleaned my to pipes with scaper i made,still tough to get the top row that well. i also took off the back bottom where the smoke pipe is, that was quite full of soot and creosote. i was wondering if those creosote removing logs would help?



My boiler was purchased used last spring no guarantee ,as is .So for me to make a slight modification an create a easy open panel on the side was just a decisions I made an do not regret. I do not recommend any body modify any part of your boiler . Hope this helps. Anthony


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## henfruit (Feb 10, 2008)

thanks  sparke and anthony, i will have to look into to that type of reostat. do you keep it running all the time? i was thinking of wiring my di to the damper so that it came on when the damper opened. i noticed that your draft inducer is clost to your boiler.does it get to hot for it there? how did you seal it in place? thanks pat


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## rsnider (Feb 11, 2008)

question? i was considering a greenfire recently but just wondering would this type of boiler get overly (dirty) since my outside temps dont get near what most of you see. my ave. temp in winter months 15 to 30 degree sometimes down to zero a few days at most. like the other day it was 50 but very rare does that happen. just wondering since most of you that have this seton design seem to live in a colder winter climate than me. would this design idle to much in a warmer temps. thanks for any replies.


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## antknee2 (Feb 11, 2008)

rsnider said:
			
		

> question? i was considering a greenfire recently but just wondering would this type of boiler get overly (dirty) since my outside temps dont get near what most of you see. my ave. temp in winter months 15 to 30 degree sometimes down to zero a few days at most. like the other day it was 50 but very rare does that happen. just wondering since most of you that have this seton design seem to live in a colder winter climate than me. would this design idle to much in a warmer temps. thanks for any replies.



If I a was to start over with a new system I would make sure their was a well designed thermal storage system in place right from the start . I like the STSS system for the boiler size I have and house size Sven said 600 gallons would work great . One full out fire per day , clean boiler , clean chimney , you use the stored energy as you need it , no over heating .

http://www.stsscoinc.com/Products_SolarAndDHW.aspx


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## sparke (Feb 11, 2008)

In a warmer climate you definately need water storage.  I can't fill my box up because it makes too much heat if it is above 20 -25* outside.  I think other gassers would work better in warmer climates.  Thats just my 2 cents...


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 11, 2008)

Doc . . . you sound like me last year . . .constantly trying to figure out what was wrong. But seriously, the measurments will tell you. My advice would be to not buy anything more (Caps, tree removal, etc) and don't expect GreenWood to bail you out. They suck, to be Frank. And I'm not Frank. The good news is, the unit itself doesn't suck  , just the company does.

So, a few clarification questions . . .

1) Did I hear you say that with the fan off, the damper open, and the unit up to temp that you got a negative draft?

2)How often are you removing ash?

3)When you load the GW, how far below the bottom of the air inlets is the coal bed?

4) have you measured the MC on the wood that seems to be smoldering yet?

5)Did I hear you say that you got the unit up to temp (aquastat set at 190, damper closed) with it loaded, then hours later the wood was just sitting there smoldering? If I understood you correctly, then what was the water temp when the wood was smoldering? and was the damper open or closed?

Jimbo


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## docgogo (Feb 13, 2008)

1) draft measured approx 12" up the vertical stack fan on damper open ( i have my draft inducer wired in with my damper) -2 draft, with the draft inducer off had zero draft. yeah the -2 dosen't make any sense. unit was at approx 140 degree. (when i measure my draft does gw need to be up to temp?? ) 
2) I remove ashes about once a week or when they get above the air inlets. (before draft inducer i never had ashes all i had were hot coals. now i do have ashes. )
3 hmm. not sure usually 3-4 " sometimes a little higher ( why is that important?)
4) no i have not measured the mc content. 
5) unit was up to 180-185 for 4-5 hrs. at that temp. not sure about the water temps but they would go from 180-185 to 105 or so. damper would be open 

since my last post i have removed my cap 
i now have 12' of dbl. wall with 4.5' of single wall 
last night was the first night that i can remember that all of my wood was almost burned up. 
i will know more in the am when i check the stove. 
how long do most people get for burn times? i realize i have a heavy load. h2o heater, furnace and hot tub but it is hard for me to get any more than 8 hrs. i need a little more time than that. thanks . doc.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 13, 2008)

docgogo said:
			
		

> 1) fan on damper open ( i have my draft inducer wired in with my damper) -2 draft, with the draft inducer off had zero draft.



Hey, I'm no expert like Joe or maybe a couple others here, but . . . I think you need to figure out if your above quoted readings are correct. To my simple mind, if you have less draft with the fan running, then the fan is moving the air backwards. If that's true, yer gonna need to fix that.



			
				docgogo said:
			
		

> 2) I remove ashes about once a week or when they get above the air inlets.



Spoken like a GW newbie . . . More than once a month is too often. Sometimes I still have to remind myself . . .
The BEST way to run the GW is get it hot, load it for an 8 hour burn, close the door and leave it. Do NOT add wood on top of wood from a previous load. Near the end of a burn cycle you will need to push coals from the front of the box to the rear. Be careful to not cover the air tubes with the coals. (This will literaly cause blue flames to shoot out the door when you open it, introducing oxygen quickly to an air starved fire!) New wood should not be added until the coals are well below the bottom of the air tubes. Careful raking of the coal bed near the end of the burn cycle will cause very little ash to remain.

Question here  . . . when you do remove ash, is it mostly clumps? or loose ash? And are you getting all the way down to the combustion chamber underneath the air tubes?



			
				docgogo said:
			
		

> 5) unit was up to 180-185 for 4-5 hrs. at that temp. not sure about the water temps but they would go from 180-185 to 105 or so. damper would be open .


 A little clarification here please . . .
IF you're saying you got the GW up to temp with a load, then for 4-5 hours it cycled on and off normally, then the damper opened and the water dropped to 105 . . .Then I'd say the GW is working the way it is supposed to, we just need to figure out why it ran out of fuel in 5 hours.

ON THE OTHER HAND IF you're saying you got the GW up to temp, the damper closed, then did not open until 5 hours later, whereupon it could not get up to temp . . .Let us know if this is the case, 'cause we need to ask more questions (first of which will be, Have you figured out the draft situation yet?) before I can say what is probably happening.



			
				docgogo said:
			
		

> i realize i have a heavy load. h2o heater, furnace and hot tub



My apoligy if I missed it somewhere, but, what is your heat demand?
Size of heated area?
Heat type?
Heat transfer method?

Jimbo


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## rsnider (Feb 14, 2008)

i was looking at the seton site www.rohor.com and noticed that it says now with vessel access panel along with steel reinforced refractory. does the seton boiler now have a panel to get to the rear of the hx tubes on the back or side like anthony did. and what does the steel reinforced refractory mean?


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## sparky1961 (Feb 14, 2008)

The steel reinforced refactory  is a angle iron frame that the refactory is casted onto it makes a frame around the rear wall and front wall.


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## antknee2 (Feb 14, 2008)

rsnider said:
			
		

> i was looking at the seton site www.rohor.com and noticed that it says now with vessel access panel along with steel reinforced refractory. does the seton boiler now have a panel to get to the rear of the hx tubes on the back or side like anthony did. and what does the steel reinforced refractory mean?



The Seton boiler dose not really have any easy way that I can see to clean the vertical section of the heat exchanger , except remove the entire right or left side panel , and cut a small section of the high density insulation like the pics . The next step was to apply a small amount of oring grease on the edges of the panel , next use a liberal amount of high temperate silicon rubber on the boiler frame . Reassemble entire panel { don't forget the insulation} let setup over night . Your boiler will blow you mind when you get your efficiency back and it will have a permanent rubber seal that can reused over and over for future cleaning . Anthony
Sorry docgogo for hijacking your thread .


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## docgogo (Feb 17, 2008)

anthony d. said he had a dedicated manometer in his stack? what kind do you have where can i get one. i am questioning my heat and air man he has a field piece unit that connects to the top of his meter not sure if it will work for wood. thanks in advance .


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## antknee2 (Feb 18, 2008)

docgogo said:
			
		

> anthony d. said he had a dedicated manometer in his stack? what kind do you have where can i get one. i am questioning my heat and air man he has a field piece unit that connects to the top of his meter not sure if it will work for wood. thanks in advance .


I found this on Ebay great price
http://cgi.ebay.com/Manometer-Dwyer...ryZ66998QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## docgogo (Feb 19, 2008)

thanks for the link on the manometer don't want to sound dumb being from ky.  all of the manometers i have looked at have plastic tubing with a brass coupling can you use that with wood fired boiler? seems like the chimney would be to hot. can you use the one anthony found on ebay as a dedicated manometer? thanks for all your help. has been a rough first six months. with very little help from gw or my seller. nice guy but doesn't know much.


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## Gooserider (Feb 19, 2008)

docgogo said:
			
		

> thanks for the link on the manometer don't want to sound dumb being from ky.  all of the manometers i have looked at have plastic tubing with a brass coupling can you use that with wood fired boiler? seems like the chimney would be to hot. can you use the one anthony found on ebay as a dedicated manometer? thanks for all your help. has been a rough first six months. with very little help from gw or my seller. nice guy but doesn't know much.



Don't know, but my assumption would be that as long as you can get the temperature down to a reasonable level, the tube and instrument should be no problem - I'd probably just use a foot or so of copper tube where I connected the manometer, should be no problem then.

I don't know of any reason you couldn't use that manometer as a dedicated instrument, other than the possible problem of whether or not the indicating oil might tend to evaporate.

Actually I'd be tempted to build my own - get some glass tube, or even clear fish tank air line, and fasten it to a board on an incline and put some calibration marks on it...  A manometer is actually one of the simplest instruments there is to make.

Gooserider


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## antknee2 (Feb 19, 2008)

The gadge I use has a 8"" long section of brass tubing shoved into the plastic tubeing , no ploblem so far . Also could you send some pics of the flue pipe configuration in back of your GW . Anthony


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## docgogo (Feb 19, 2008)

here are the pics
i have 5' of single wall with a draft inducer ad-1 
15' of double wall pipe . 
still having problems purchased a draft inducer from dwyerhttp://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/pressure/Model25-40Price.CFM


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## sparke (Feb 20, 2008)

Is that romex wire next to the single wall flue?


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## docgogo (Feb 20, 2008)

yeah its actually an extension cord but its about 24" from the flue . not usually there.


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## sparke (Feb 20, 2008)

Glad it is just temporary


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## antknee2 (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks for the pics, looks like your chimney height is not a problem . You might be choking down the boiler with the reducer at the base of the GW.Also what looks like a home made transition into the draft inducer might cause turbulence in exeunt stream , silicon seal around the surface that connects the draft inducer to the flue pipe,if it is missing a gasket. Last thing I would check , but most important make sure the base of the boiler by the flue exhaust pipe is clean inside the boiler , I found soot can deposit there very quickly even with clean burns. Anthony


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## rsnider (Feb 20, 2008)

how much insulated pipe is needed or recommended for these boilers? how many feet? just wondering if it was to sit in a shed outside. if anything just give me a guess.


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## muleman51 (Feb 20, 2008)

these boilers blow my mind. you litteraly have to be a rocket scientist too operate one. I have not slept a good night since I installedmine 3 months ago. It has never worked right. At least when I had my old Aquatherm allyou had to do was keep it full of wood. It could burn 18 hoursor longer if you filled it full.  Thought i might get some effiency out of my Adobe only headaches and still burns as much wood. Put up new chimney still doesnot work now have to tear it apartto see if its clean in back. wouldn't be a bad job if they had made a decent access panel that was removable. I can just imagine the shape of that tin by the time you get it off. Should have listened to my brotherinlaw. He has a Garn no problems, no chimney, no additional water storage, burn a fire once or twice a day and he can sleep being sure it will be ok in the morning. I'll bet he has less in his than I will have in mine by the time I add everything to make this piece of---- work. If you think I'm frustrated I am. Thanks for listening.


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## antknee2 (Feb 20, 2008)

rsnider said:
			
		

> how much insulated pipe is needed or recommended for these boilers? how many feet? just wondering if it was to sit in a shed outside. if anything just give me a guess.



Fred Seton has a very simple set up ,no less than 18' of double wall insulated flue pipe starting at base of the boiler directly into the flue pipe , no reducers , just a clean out tee for servicing. Very safe and it keeps the flue temperate up for proper draft and efficiency throughout out the boiler cycles . Anthony


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## antknee2 (Feb 20, 2008)

muleman51 said:
			
		

> these boilers blow my mind. you litteraly have to be a rocket scientist too operate one. I have not slept a good night since I installedmine 3 months ago. It has never worked right. At least when I had my old Aquatherm allyou had to do was keep it full of wood. It could burn 18 hoursor longer if you filled it full. Thought i might get some effiency out of my Adobe only headaches and still burns as much wood. Put up new chimney still doesnot work now have to tear it apartto see if its clean in back. wouldn't be a bad job if they had made a decent access panel that was removable. I can just imagine the shape of that tin by the time you get it off. Should have listened to my brotherinlaw. He has a Garn no problems, no chimney, no additional water storage, burn a fire once or twice a day and he can sleep being sure it will be ok in the morning. I'll bet he has less in his than I will have in mine by the time I add everything to make this piece of---- work. If you think I'm frustrated I am. Thanks for listening.



Bummer 
Maybe start a new thread , there is defiantly allot to owning an operating a wood fired boiler , way to many variables . We can help . Very cool you my be the first Adobe boiler owner to speak up at the Boiler room . Anthony


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## muleman51 (Feb 20, 2008)

If you have to put up 18' of insulated pipe, add water storage, cross your fingers, have the wind at your back. something is wrong with this picture . This industry needs to look at itself and come up with something that works or at least be very honest and tell a person exactly what all of the variables are and what they will cost up front or the systems simply will not work! Instead they sell you a boiler say good luck I never want to hear from you again and you are left to spend thousands to try try to make a bigger mess out of what you already have. there is another thread started under Adobe problems owner unite , started yesterday.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 20, 2008)

I am confused . . . I thought you said you had a draft-inducing fan installed? But I don't see one . . .

If you get a negative draft between the GW outlet and the fan with the damper open and the fan running, something is incorrect.

My WAG would be that neither height of chimney nor surrounding trees is the problem.

Once you get the draft in the realm  where it should be:

Get the GW up to 200* (my observation so far is that it runs best with the aquastat set at 190*), load it with quality rounds (the 1/2 way up the door opening thing in the manual is a good benchmark), then close the door. You may find - especially if the heat demand is high at that time - that the GW cools down below 180* after the damper opens the first time after loading. DO NOT OPEN THE DOOR TO SEE WHAT IS WRONG. Let the new load of wood heat up. The GW will then come back up to 200* and the damper will close. At this point observe the stack. You will have some wispy white steam/smoke.The amount will depend on your wood's MC and outside air temp and humidity.

Now observe what happens when the temp drops to 180*. When the damper opens you should get a puff of white steam/smoke, very light blue smoke for 20-30 seconds, then VSF(visibly smoke free) If you still get smoke with hot wood and the damper open and proper draft, either:

1)Your wood is wetter than you realize, or
2)the fire is starved for air.



			
				ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> docgogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Put another way . . . when the unit was down to 105*, was there fuel and coals near the air inlets?

Jimbo


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## antknee2 (Feb 20, 2008)

muleman51 said:
			
		

> If you have to put up 18' of insulated pipe, add water storage, cross your fingers, have the wind at your back. something is wrong with this picture . This industry needs to look at itself and come up with something that works or at least be very honest and tell a person exactly what all of the variables are and what they will cost up front or the systems simply will not work! Instead they sell you a boiler say good luck I never want to hear from you again and you are left to spend thousands to try try to make a bigger mess out of what you already have. there is another thread started under Adobe problems owner unite , started yesterday.



I agree be up front about the entire picture !! Wayne Bryant grilled me about my setup , knowledge and dump zone before he would sell me the medium size Seton boiler .


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## docgogo (Feb 20, 2008)

Anthony i took my chimney apart today to find approximately 3" of soot took about 10 min to clean out. 
also the connection you saw is not homemade i have metal bestos double wall pipe with a mb connection to the single wall pipe. 
checked all my joints today all were fine. thanks doc .


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## antknee2 (Feb 21, 2008)

docgogo said:
			
		

> Anthony i took my chimney apart today to find approximately 3" of soot took about 10 min to clean out.
> also the connection you saw is not homemade i have metal bestos double wall pipe with a mb connection to the single wall pipe.
> checked all my joints today all were fine. thanks doc .





That's great ! Flue pipes on wood burning appliances make me very nervous . Anthony


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 21, 2008)

Where was the soot? Down in the back of the GW? or in the pipe?


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## docgogo (Feb 22, 2008)

back of the greenwood about 2-3 " deep covered the entire back about 24-30" wide and 10-12 in deep took off the collar cleaned it out with a vacuum cleaner. 
thanks for the tip.oh yeah the draft inducer is on the single wall pipe almost at the top i took the pic from the side. the draft inducer is the half moon shaped thing in the first pic about the top of the pic.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 22, 2008)

I doubt the soot was causing the problem. My pipe is 8" all the way, but I've never actually measured my draught. But after a year, I don't hve much trouble . . .well cept when I do something stupid ;-) 

So, you got cleaned up! Have you put it back together and fired her up yet?

Jimbo


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## docgogo (Feb 22, 2008)

yes i have but i'm having mixed results 
aquastat 190 with 15 deg dif. 
up to temp at 6:00 eve. 
cycles on and off correctly 
11:00 pm two large pieces of white oak (supposed to be seasoned 5 months have not measured mc) temps at 180 deg. 

4:00 am temps at 150 deg. wood red hot but temps down.  placed small split wood temp gets up to 180 within 1 hr. 
6:45 am temp at 180 deg. filled with large pieces of white oak
home at 4:15 temps at 85 deg.almost know wood left burning.  built fire temps up to 200 deg in two hrs. 
manometer arrived today dwyer ll 25 model directions are very sketchy at best trying to figure out how to hook up correctly


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## tigermaple (Feb 23, 2008)

White Oak holds on to it's water. It takes two years to get a good burn on. Next season you will see what your GW will do.


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 23, 2008)

You quickly learn all about what really dry means when you start using a gasifier. I have wood that's "dry" and wood that's "really dry." It's an important distinction.


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## machinistbcb (Feb 23, 2008)

I would think that if you name a boiler GREENWOOD and you advertise that the boiler can burn GREENWOOD, that burnung GREENWOOD should not totaly ruin the performance of the boiler.


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## henfruit (Feb 23, 2008)

i never remember them saying it would burn green wood?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 24, 2008)

I have never had trouble burning 'wet' red nor white oak. You must make sure the fire is up to temp, put down a layer of seasoned wood on the coals, then alternate 'dry' and 'wet' wood. All the oak I burn has been cut down about 7 years, but it has laid on the forest floor the whole time. I have never measured the MC, but I know it's less than ideal.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 24, 2008)

docgogo said:
			
		

> yes i have but i'm having mixed results
> aquastat 190 with 15 deg dif.
> up to temp at 6:00 eve.
> cycles on and off correctly
> ...



Clarification please.
1) after the white oak and you closed the door, how high was the wood in the box? What was the overnight temp, say at 4AM when you checked it?
2)When you opend the door at 4AM, what was in the box? Whole pieces of wood? or just coals?



			
				docgogo said:
			
		

> placed small split wood temp gets up to 180 within 1 hr.
> 6:45 am temp at 180 deg. filled with large pieces of white oak
> home at 4:15 temps at 85 deg.almost know wood left burning.


That's a 9 1/2 hour burn. I shoot for sustainable fires of 8 hours with effective heating capacity. What was the outside temp that day? How full are you filling the box? Am I missing something, because I though you were saying the wood was just sitting in the box not producing heat. Has that changed now to the point where the wood burns fine, just not as long as you had hoped?

Jimbo


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## tigermaple (Feb 24, 2008)

Yeah, somethin" still not right with this. I mostly burn dry wood, but the past two days I have been chucking the wettest, sitting in a puddle, beech into my gw 100 just to see what would happen.  Well I'm burning more wood but the fire is roaring and the water temp is 190º  The inside temp is 72-74º. More smoke but not as much as I expected. If GW could figure out the cracking refractory I believe it would be the best boiler out there. The time savings in wood prep is huge.


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## docgogo (Feb 25, 2008)

thanks to all who have helped me. to my dismay 
manometer reading when above 140 deg. .8-.10 
with draft inducer on .17-.20 
so i guess every one was pretty much right the white oak that i thought was dry is obviously wet.
now i guess the plan should be to make sure the wood i get is dry 
probably need a mc meter does anyone have ideas where to get one thats not too expensive and where to get it? 
also should probably get as much wood ahead as i can and let is season
what would be the desired time to season 
white oak 
hickory and so on? 
http://www.nepadigital.com/bb/download/file.php?id=1633
found this was a lot of help with installation
thanks to anthony to helping me with manometer i purchased a mark ll 25 from dwyer instruments 33.00 plus shipping 
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/PDFFILES/cat/pressure/25_cat.pdf
thanks again yes i feel really stupid 
thanks to anthony i didn't cut any trees, or do anything else 
don't need the draft inducer but it helps when starting a fire.


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## Gooserider (Feb 25, 2008)

There are many folks that have gotten low cost moisture meters from either Harbor Freight, or E-Bay.  Comments I've heard are that they work reasonably well, but are a little fragile - some folks have suggested pre-drilling pilot holes for the pins to avoid straining them.  Others have said that the 2 pin models are arguably less accurate than the 4 pin models, but both are good enough for firewood, and the two pin units are easier to use on cordwood since you don't need to worry about getting a surface flat enough to get all 4 pins in contact at the same time.  

Also remember the correct procedure for measuring - you need to re-split the peice you are trying to measure and get the moisture content off the newly exposed surface, DON'T just take a reading off the outside of the split, as the outside will be much lower than the center, giving you a false reading.

Standard answer for seasoning time is AT LEAST one year for most oaks and your better hardwoods, with the seasoning clock starting when you cut the wood to your preferred burn length and get it stacked off the ground.  (NOT when you drop the tree) Longer is better as long as the wood is reasonably protected and stacked off the ground, with 2-4 year wood probably being about the best.  You can shave some time off this by stacking techniques, although you will get "religious arguements" about the best technique.  During the dry season, loose single row stacks spaced 4-8 feet apart, exposed to the sun, and crossways to the prevailing winds seems to be the best.  In worse weather, you should either top cover the stacks or move the wood into a wood shed.  (I have an open sided wood shed that I stack the wood into as I process it, about 5 tightly stacked rows, with tarps over the open sides that I leave rolled up in the summer and lower in the winter time - not perfect but I don't like moving the wood multiple times.  If you can't season that far ahead, 6-9 months will get you most of the way there.

Cut and split from the wood guy should be considered to be unseasoned, no matter what is claimed, unless you have personally verified the moisture content with your own meter.

What I figure is to try to cut and split at least 30-50% more wood each season than you plan to use, then burn the oldest wood first.  This will slowly increase the age of your piles over a couple seasons until you are starting to get 3-4 years ahead on the supply, at which point you can balance off by cutting about the same each year as you use.

Gooserider


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## antknee2 (Feb 25, 2008)

One other trick my father always preaches to me , mix your wood some dry some whatever, some hard some  soft , if possible , in the ideal world . That's not my world . Anthony


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Feb 25, 2008)

docgogo said:
			
		

> manometer reading when above 140 deg. .8-.10
> with draft inducer on .17-.20
> so i guess every one was pretty much right the white oak that i thought was dry is obviously wet.



Ok, I know you are frustrated - I spent the whole winter that way last year - but you seriously need to see this through and NOT by throwing more money at this situation . . .

Your readings now apear to have TOO MUCH DRAUGHT, correct? Because that will piss away your wood.

I know that fully insturmented would be a great way to burn, but you still need some gut instinct. So . . . if the fire is up to temp and you add the white oak, what does the stack look like when the damper opens?

For my 'less than ideal' wood - assuming its cold out - you are going to get a reasonable large cloud of white 'smoke' (I think if you could analyze it, you would find a lot of water in it. After a full load and cold outside, the damper will remain open for 45-60 mins. When it closes you will now get somewheres between the aforementioned 'white cloud' and the coveted whisp of white. Now, when the damper opens the second time, you should get less than a minute of white cloud, then some thin blue for 1 min, then VSF. To me this means your water has been mostly baked out of the wood, and now you are back to burning efficiently.

The problems with the GW - in my experience - are

1)The refractory cracks to hell, and
2)It smokes out the load door

Item # 2 can be mitigated, and when placed outside, becomes a non-issue. Item #1 . . . the jury's still out on that.

If I were you, I would be wary of deeming 'wet wood' to be your problem. As someone else that runs a GW here said, you can burn wetter wood in these units. You will go through wood faster. You will produce more 'smoke'. But as Anthony mentioned, it's good to mix up your wood. One thing I have definitly found is that you want to burn all the way down to coals below the air inlets, then add a complete layer of dry wood on top of the coals, then alternate layers of wetter wood with dry wood. But lets face it . . . when its single digits or lower, stick with your better wood.

One thing I have found that sometimes helps with some wetter stuff you want to use . . . put it north/south on top of the pile. My idea is that it allows better air flow through the wet wood, removing the water quicker. Works for me.

OH!! Experiment for ya . . . . measure your draught, then remove a couple sections of that chimney you spent big bucks on . . . what does the draught measure then?

Jimbo


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## antknee2 (Feb 26, 2008)

I remember reading in the Seton owners manual  a big warning not to use a barometric draft damper . Imagine what would happen if you had a chimney fire an no way to kill the air supply . Fred recommends a good old fashioned stove pipe damper . Hope this info helps . Anthony


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## docgogo (Feb 26, 2008)

wow thats what gw recommends


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## docgogo (Mar 2, 2008)

I need some help again. Greenwood 190 with 10 degree drop 
Finally got some good seasoned wood from my wood supplier built a pretty good fire few hrs. later temps went way up usually go to 205-210 have only went above 212 a few times is this safe. 
today after building the fire temps went to 223 got worried and started dumping hot water from hot water tank. 
also i some of the guys seem to have water storage to store hot water how does that work and can i do it with the gw 100
thanks doc .


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## antknee2 (Mar 2, 2008)

docgogo said:
			
		

> I need some help again. Greenwood 190 with 10 degree drop
> Finally got some good seasoned wood from my wood supplier built a pretty good fire few hrs. later temps went way up usually go to 205-210 have only went above 212 a few times is this safe.
> today after building the fire temps went to 223 got worried and started dumping hot water from hot water tank.
> also i some of the guys seem to have water storage to store hot water how does that work and can i do it with the gw 100
> thanks doc .


Sounds like a out of control boiler , very bad news , totally fixable .
1  Do you hear a knocking sound in the boiler when the temperature rises past 200f ?
2  once the damper closes will the knocking stop and temp drops , relativity quickly ??
3  will your secondary high limit aquastat kick in and activate a dump zone ?
4  what is your primary high limit set for ?
5  Is their a possibility a small object is preventing the draft door from closing completely ?
6  When the draft door closes is it super tight an non movable ?


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## docgogo (Mar 3, 2008)

1 no i don't hear any knocking sound
2 damper is closing ok. 
3 yes the secondary aquastat is working (was dumping heat last night)
4 190 with 10 degree drop ( i think anthony suggested this setting supposed to be a cleaner burn)
5 there is no object in the way of the damper ( something i have noticed the damper always stays open approx 1/4")
6 the damper closes tight an non movable. 
 my draft is a little on the strong side for a greenwood they suggest .5-.7 and mine when up to temp runs about .8-.9 
i think i will put in a manual damper 
thanks


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## antknee2 (Mar 3, 2008)

docgogo said:
			
		

> 1 no i don't hear any knocking sound
> 2 damper is closing ok.
> 3 yes the secondary aquastat is working (was dumping heat last night)
> 4 190 with 10 degree drop ( i think anthony suggested this setting supposed to be a cleaner burn)
> ...


Just had a brainstorm , if the GW has any air leaks you will have to compensate for them by lowering you aquastat settings . My Seton went through some very extensive custom air leak locating and sealing , which lets me push the boiler to the limits without over firing . Anthony


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## antknee2 (Mar 3, 2008)

5 there is no object in the way of the damper ( something i have noticed the damper always stays open approx 1/4")  
One more thought the damper should close 100% metal to metal . That 1/4'' gap can be the cause of allot of problems . Anthony


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Mar 3, 2008)

docgogo said:
			
		

> 5 there is no object in the way of the damper ( something i have noticed the damper always stays open approx 1/4")
> 6 the damper closes tight an non movable.



Ok, I am confused here . . . does the damper close? or doesn't it? Cause when you reach the high limit, the damper should close completely and not open again until the temp drops to the low set point. If your damper stays open, you are going to have a serious problem when the outside temp gets warm like today.


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## tigermaple (Mar 4, 2008)

My GW damper door did not close tightly when I first got it. It took a couple weeks before I noticed 1/4" gap. That quarter inch cause quite a problem as the unit overheated twice. Overheating sucks.  A quick adjustment of the damper motor mount solved the problem. The new GW have addressed this problem with a gasket, or so I'm told. 
Good Luck, Pat


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## docgogo (Mar 4, 2008)

what did you do to close this 1/4" gap?
ok so it dosen't close tight there is always a 1/4" gap 


I have another question when i purchased my unit i bought a sidearm for the hot water now that i read some literature it only assist with hot water production so you can't rely on the sidearm to produce all of your hot water. Is there a product that will produce all of the hot water needs? thanks in advance.


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## Gooserider (Mar 4, 2008)

docgogo said:
			
		

> what did you do to close this 1/4" gap?
> ok so it dosen't close tight there is always a 1/4" gap
> 
> 
> I have another question when i purchased my unit i bought a sidearm for the hot water now that i read some literature it only assist with hot water production so you can't rely on the sidearm to produce all of your hot water. Is there a product that will produce all of the hot water needs? thanks in advance.



Yes, its called a WATER HEATER!    - Smart-a$$ answers aside, a side arm might or might not give you as much DHW as you want, depending on the details of your setup, and your use patterns...  Ultimately this is the case with ALL DHW producers.  A side arm is typically setup to make a convection loop with your water heater and a circulator loop with the boiler / storage tank.  As long as the sidearm input is getting heat, and you aren't pulling more out of the DHW tank than it can provide, you will be fine.  If the sidearm isn't getting heat, it won't do anything to help...  There are ways that others here can help with, to design your system to get the maximum benefit out of the sidearm, but there are limits.  You may find that you need a backup heating system, or that some other form of dealing with heating your DHW is needed.

Gooserider


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 4, 2008)

Goose nailed it. As long as your boiler is producing hot water, a sidearm will work very well. Typically, a sidearm is connected to a conventional water heater, and the hot water it produces will be stored in the water heater tank. So, a bigger tank will give you more DHW storage. Obviously, once your boiler goes out and you use up the hot water in the tank, you will either need a backup or you'll run out of DHW.

Mine is hooked up to a cheap electric water heater, which I switch off during the heating season.


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## antknee2 (Mar 4, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Goose nailed it. As long as your boiler is producing hot water, a sidearm will work very well. Typically, a sidearm is connected to a conventional water heater, and the hot water it produces will be stored in the water heater tank. So, a bigger tank will give you more DHW storage. Obviously, once your boiler goes out and you use up the hot water in the tank, you will either need a backup or you'll run out of DHW.
> 
> Mine is hooked up to a cheap electric water heater, which I switch off during the heating season.



Then all we need is a solar domestic hot water system to kick in once, the heating season over . That should leave us with plenty of time to restock the wood sheds and watch the fuel oil truck drive by .


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Mar 4, 2008)

1) When the damper is open, look at the stove side of the damper. You should see 4 well delineated dark circles that correspond to the air inlets. If these are not well defined, then the damper is not closing properly. Honestly, I would suggest you not operate the GW until you correct this.
2) What did you do about the draft? Did you try removing the last section of MetalBestos and remeasuring?

Item 1 above very easily explains your overheating on the GW. I am kind of curious what was happening at the other end where you were taking heat off. Did your inside boiler overheat?

Jimbo


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