# what the heak Can you burn Pine or cant you???



## Chrism

I have read so many things that say yes you can and no you shouldn't???  Read and article that if its split and seasoned for 2 years it will burn cleaner than hard wood??? I have 13 80 ft pine trees that I am cutting down cause they are huge lightning rods!! And if I can burn them in my stove when they are seasoned that would be a lot of free heat for a couple of winters. Any thoughts on this issue ?


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## North of 60

I will give you a hint.  What would it cost me for you to ship me up some OAK and other types of wood?  Does it get cold here?
 I have a wood stove and use it 24/7 for a minimum of 8 months.  Pine is our Oak. ;-) 
Cheers


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## Beetle-Kill

Heak yeah you can burn them! Knock 'em down, buck 'em up, split and stack for ( give 'em a year to be safe- don't wanna go bald, do you?) then burn the sucka's. Enjoy! :lol:


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## BrowningBAR

Chrism said:
			
		

> I have read so many things that say yes you can and no you shouldn't???  Read and article that if its split and seasoned for 2 years it will burn cleaner than hard wood??? I have 13 80 ft pine trees that I am cutting down cause they are huge lightning rods!! And if I can burn them in my stove when they are seasoned that would be a lot of free heat for a couple of winters. Any thoughts on this issue ?




Buck, split, stack, and dry those god forsaken trees and burn away.


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## johnstra

I burned 2 cords of exceptionally well seasoned pine this year and my flue looks great.  You will not get as long a burn out of pine, but I can still load my Mansfield at night and easily have enough coals to reload from in the morning.

If you do burn pine, try to avoid pieces that have fatwood sections in them.  The pine I'm burning was cut quite a long time ago and pieces that had branches or stems tend to develop sections that are very rich.  Burning that stuff is like soaking a piece in kerosene... best to avoid it.  I can spot them by looking now.  The nose test will tell you too... if they smell like fatwood (aka starter pine, or pitch pine) I don't burn them as splits.  You can shave off pieces and use them for starter if you want.

I like to alternate pine loads with hardwood loads to manage coal buildup.  If I need a lot of heat, the pine load will cook down the coals and still yield good heat.  I can follow it up with another full load of oak.

-john


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## Chrism

Guess I'm dumb didn't quite get that pyro?? Sorry


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## BrowningBAR

Chrism said:
			
		

> Guess I'm dumb didn't quite get that pyro?? Sorry



Dry the pine and burn it!


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## KTLM

You can definately burn pine. Not  sure about lightning rods.


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## Beetle-Kill

Ok, Ok- Chrism, this topic comes up every (month, year,...) Process your trees like you would any other tree, then enjoy the heat. You'll learn to live with the side effects.


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## bogydave

Pine is fine.
Less BTU per cord than hardwoods, but burns great.


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## Chrism

What side effects??


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## Mt Ski Bum

north of 60 said:
			
		

> I will give you a hint.  What would it cost me for you to ship me up some OAK and other types of wood?  Does it get cold here?
> I have a wood stove and use it 24/7 for a minimum of 8 months.  Pine is our Oak. ;-)
> Cheers



+100


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## BrowningBAR

Chrism said:
			
		

> What side effects??




Heat.


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## BrowningBAR

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

> Chrism said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What side effects??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heat.
Click to expand...


Seriously, though. No side effects if the wood is dry. Pine is a soft wood and can burn hot but has a shorter burn cycle than hard woods.


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## Beetle-Kill

+1-  I was waiting for others to chime in, just to start the smack talk. I'm still laughing at "what could have been" .  %-P ... Chrism, process the Pine, let it dry and burn it. My wood is 80% Pine, I blame the other 20% on my limp and bald head.


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## burleymike

Here in the intermountain west pine is about all we burn unless you buy wood from a tree guy.  In the dry climate of the west pine will season once split in 8-12 months.  

I actually prefer the pieces from the tops since they are full of pitch.  I can put a couple of those really pitch filled logs in first thing in the morning and the secondaries will be lit up in 5-10 minuets.  While I know the burn time is shorter pine does not make a lot of coals or ash.


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## Jutt77

Chrism said:
			
		

> What side effects??


Side effects include an intense burning sensation

Seriously though, I love pine it's awesome and about the best wood we got around here.  Ask Beetlekill, he's rockin like 500 cords of it


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## Beetle-Kill

500 cord, yeah, - I wish! :lol:


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## dafattkidd

don't do it.  that stuff is stove poison


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## Chrism

Fire Honor Society everyone has said its ok to burn why do you say that??


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## Mt Ski Bum

Chrism said:
			
		

> Fire Honor Society everyone has said its ok to burn why do you say that??



Chrism, you're addressing people by their membership catagory. Look at the name in blue above the catagory. 

Also, as far as the pine goes, it is just like any other wood- cut it, dplit it, season it, & then BURN IT!! What do you think we use for stove fuel out here in the Rocky Mountain West, where all we have is pine & other conifers? We certainly don't import oak & other hardwoods from the east!


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## bogydave

Lots don't like it because they blame the pitch for creosote in their system or you get sticky when bucking it. It sometimes gums up 
tools, saws etc. For fireplaces, it snap & crackles & shoots sparks all directions so have to be more careful. In a woodstove, load it up
close the door & enjoy the heat.
Many folks in the NW search out pitch filled wood. & go to great lengths to get it.
When I was in Oregon, I helped a buddy get a log off a river sand bar, full of pitch. Heavy & lots of heat energy in it.
He called it "Primo" & said it would burn real hot.
Just dry it like any other wood. It actually dries faster than most hardwoods. If dry it will burn fine, just less BTUs per cord.
Like any wood burned wet/green, it will creosote up your stove & stack. But when it's dry, not a problem. 
Has been burned for heat for hundreds of years.


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## certified106

Man i f you can't burn pine please, please, please don't tell my wood stove since I have it fooled..... :lol:


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## PARKBOY

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

> Chrism said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What side effects??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heat.
Click to expand...


LMAO


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## Backwoods Savage

Chrism said:
			
		

> I have read so many things that say yes you can and no you shouldn't???  Read and article that if its split and seasoned for 2 years it will burn cleaner than hard wood??? I have 13 80 ft pine trees that I am cutting down cause they are huge lightning rods!! And if I can burn them in my stove when they are seasoned that would be a lot of free heat for a couple of winters. Any thoughts on this issue ?



I'd like to take this thread a different direction because we all know that burning pine is okay. It is just another old wives tale that burning pine will burn your house down. It is pure baloney. 

But what I'd like to address is the lightning rod things. Chrism, why do you think these pine are lightning rods? One reason I ask is that we have several thousand pine trees right by our house and to my knowledge, lightning has never struck in those pines. Lightning however has stuck several oak on the neighbor's land and several of our trees (mostly maple), but never a pine.

So, why are your pines lightning rods?


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## brianbeech

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> Chrism said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have read so many things that say yes you can and no you shouldn't???  Read and article that if its split and seasoned for 2 years it will burn cleaner than hard wood??? I have 13 80 ft pine trees that I am cutting down cause they are huge lightning rods!! And if I can burn them in my stove when they are seasoned that would be a lot of free heat for a couple of winters. Any thoughts on this issue ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to take this thread a different direction because we all know that burning pine is okay. It is just another old wives tale that burning pine will burn your house down. It is pure baloney.
> 
> But what I'd like to address is the lightning rod things. Chrism, why do you think these pine are lightning rods? One reason I ask is that we have several thousand pine trees right by our house and to my knowledge, lightning has never struck in those pines. Lightning however has stuck several oak on the neighbor's land and several of our trees (mostly maple), but never a pine.
> 
> So, why are your pines lightning rods?
Click to expand...


Growing up in the Deep South, I was assuming he meant he had some really tall pine trees by the house - and no other trees by the house.  We had mostly pine on the Gulf Coast and lots of houses had 50'+ pine trees right next to the house.  When the hurricanes come in, you don't want a massive pine splitting and crashing on the house.  He may be thinking the same thing about the pines being tall and acting like a 'lighting rod'.  Just a guess though.


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## Backwoods Savage

Well, it is difficult to stop those hurricanes for sure!


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## dafattkidd

Chrism said:
			
		

> Fire Honor Society everyone has said its ok to burn why do you say that??



I think you're addressing me- I'm kidding.


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## Wingman

I am burning it as we speak.


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## Jags

Burning pine has been rumored to cause:
Male pattern baldness
ED
Temporary blindness.

Burn at your own risk.

Oh - owning a Stihl MS-361 is the only known cure for the above.
 :cheese:


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## Todd

I live in hardwood country so I tend to stay away from Pine. People can't give it away around here. I don't like to deal with all the pitch and sap, even for my outdoor fire pit.


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## firefighterjake

Chrism said:
			
		

> I have read so many things that say yes you can and no you shouldn't???  Read and article that if its split and seasoned for 2 years it will burn cleaner than hard wood??? I have 13 80 ft pine trees that I am cutting down cause they are huge lightning rods!! And if I can burn them in my stove when they are seasoned that would be a lot of free heat for a couple of winters. Any thoughts on this issue ?



You need to spend more of your reading time here . . . the answer will be clear . . . as to whether you can burn pine.

For the record . . . I burn pine . . . but then again I am an equal opportunity burner.


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## firefighterjake

Jags said:
			
		

> Burning pine has been rumored to cause:
> Male pattern baldness
> ED
> Temporary blindness.
> 
> Burn at your own risk.
> 
> Oh - owning a Stihl MS-361 is the only known cure for the above.
> :cheese:



Well I burn pine and I am going bald and without my glasses I may as well be blind . . . but when I find my glasses I can see again . . . so that ticks off two of the boxes. No ED that I know of . . . and I'm guessing I would know if this was a problem.

Only negative I can see is that burning pine reduces the amount of wood in your woodpile . . . well that and it means you will not be able to exchange friendly greetings with your gas or oil delivery guy as he will not be stopping by so frequently.

On the serious side . . . as you have no doubt realized by now . . . burning pine is fine . . . as long as it is seasoned . . . and you may not want to stuff an entire firebox full of small splits and then touch it off (of course this is a good rule to remember when dealing with any other wood for that matter) . . . for me the only two negatives with pine (and incidentally there are a variety of softwoods and some species burn quite different -- i.e. our members out west say some of their softwoods actually burn not so fast and hot) are . . . a) working with the messy pitch and sap and b) the softwoods -- including pines -- I have here tend to burn fast and hot so I relegate their use mainly to the shoulder seasons and for kindling as I prefer to use the hardwood I have easy access to.


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## Delta-T

Jags said:
			
		

> Burning pine has been rumored to cause:
> Male pattern baldness
> ED
> Temporary blindness.
> 
> Burn at your own risk.
> 
> Oh - owning a Stihl MS-361 is the only known cure for the above.
> :cheese:



you left out mountain lion magnet....the MS-361 prolly takes care of that too.


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## Jags

Delta-T said:
			
		

> Jags said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Burning pine has been rumored to cause:
> Male pattern baldness
> ED
> Temporary blindness.
> 
> Burn at your own risk.
> 
> Oh - owning a Stihl MS-361 is the only known cure for the above.
> :cheese:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you left out mountain lion magnet....the MS-361 prolly takes care of that too.
Click to expand...


Thanks Delta.  I forgot about that one, and it is definitely one that should be cautioned about.


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## Lumber-Jack

The myth that pine causes chimney fires is of Eastern origin, and it has a bit of biased truth to it. It probably developed something like thisâ€¦.

You take your typical Easterner who, year after year, burns predominantly unseasoned Oak, blissfully developing a good thick coating of creosote in his chimney. Eventually one day he finds, or someone offers him, some nice dry Pine. He then proceeds to burn a load of this nice dry Pine in the same manner as he usually burns the wet Oak expecting much the same sort of results, but instead the fire burns much hotter (the way it is suppose to) than it has ever done in the past, thus igniting the creosote, that has been developing in the chimney for years, and he has a huge chimney fire. The fire department comes and puts out the fire (hopefully saving his house and family), later the fire chief asks the homeowner how the fire got started? To which the homeowner replies, "all I did was burn a load of Pine." Thus perpetuating the myth that the Pine was the "cause" of the chimney fire and it is â€œdangerousâ€ to burn in your stove.

Just remember the significant difference between pine and oak (if oak is what youâ€™re use to burning) is that pine not only seasons faster than oak, it also burns faster and hotter too.


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## weatherguy

> The myth that pine causes chimney fires is of Eastern origin, and it has a bit of biased truth to it. It probably developed something like thisâ€¦.
> 
> You take your typical Easterner who, year after year, burns predominantly unseasoned Oak, blissfully developing a good thick coating of creosote in his chimney. Eventually one day he finds, or someone offers him, some nice dry Pine. He then proceeds to burn a load of this nice dry Pine in the same manner as he usually burns the wet Oak expecting much the same sort of results, but instead the fire burns much hotter (the way it is suppose to) than it has ever done in the past, thus igniting the creosote, that has been developing in the chimney for years, and he has a huge chimney fire. The fire department comes and puts out the fire (hopefully saving his house and family), later the fire chief asks the homeowner how the fire got started? To which the homeowner replies, â€œall I did was burn a load of Pine.â€ Thus perpetuating the myth that the Pine was the â€œcauseâ€ of the chimney fire and it is â€œdangerousâ€ to burn in your stove.
> 
> Just remember the significant difference between pine and oak (if oak is what youâ€™re use to burning) is that pine not only seasons faster than oak, it also burns faster and hotter too.



Or they burn unseasoned pine, which causes its own problems.


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## theora55

Just to be on the safe side, you can give me your cut, split pine.  Can't be too careful...


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## Lumber-Jack

weatherguy said:
			
		

> Or they burn unseasoned pine, which causes its *own problems*.


Actually burning unseasoned pine would cause the *same problem* as burning unseasoned hardwood, but because pine seasons so much faster than hardwoods (like oak) it just has a much greater chance of being properly seasoned before it gets burned.


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## bobforsaken

theora55 said:
			
		

> Just to be on the safe side, you can give me your cut, split pine.  Can't be too careful...



LOL.. my only issue with Pine is the lack of a coal bed which is essential for catalyst operation.   It works find in conjunction with hardwoods.. or if you keep the fire burning hot by reloading while the logs are still burning with coals all around.   It's definitely part of my shoulder season plans.


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## moosetrek

So is the plan to cut down the taller objects around your house to make it more attractive to the lightning?  So is the concern that the lightning will start the trees on fire?


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## Adios Pantalones

Jags said:
			
		

> Delta-T said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jags said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Burning pine has been rumored to cause:
> Male pattern baldness
> ED
> Temporary blindness.
> 
> Burn at your own risk.
> 
> Oh - owning a Stihl MS-361 is the only known cure for the above.
> :cheese:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you left out mountain lion magnet....the MS-361 prolly takes care of that too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks Delta.  I forgot about that one, and it is definitely one that should be cautioned about.
Click to expand...


They recently announced that the eastern mountain lion is extinct, except for the Florida variety.  The western is moving in, however, and they expect will range to the east coast eventually


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## Battenkiller

It seems to be largely dependent on the heater itself... 

Below is a chart created from data gathered by OMNI Environmental Services two years ago.  It is from a report of a very comprehensive real-world (they used cordwood in a manner that ordinary users supposedly burned) study that compared two EPA certified wood heaters (sorry, it didn't say which ones), one a higher emissions heater than the other.  Seems that heaters rated to produce the lowest total PM emissions produce less PM with dry fir than with dry maple, while the less efficient heater made up to twice as much PM with the softwood.  

Results for PM are in g/kg fuel burned, not in the usually quoted g/hr.  This is a much more realistic figure for us since what we should really be concerned with how much creosote we are making per cord burned, not per hour burned (which might include results for burn rates that are way lower than any of us burn in real life).  Both softwood and hardwood used in the tests (16 burns altogether at varying burn rates) were at ~20% MC dry-basis (as might be determined by use of a resistance moisture meter).  That is wood that is at the lowest allowable MC for the EPA testing protocol.

Earlier studies (University of Tennessee) I've seen on pre-EPA heaters ("smoke dragons") show a much worse outcome, with beetle-killed dry pine producing much more measured creosote in the flue than when burning unseasoned hardwood.

My take on this is that it all depends on how well a given stove handles secondary combustion.  Most pre-EPA airtight stoves had no ability at all to handle smoke that was not consumed inside the primary burn zone.  Woods that outgassed the fastest (dry pine) therefore made the most excess smoke and deposited the most creosote inside the flue.  Ironically, green pine (the slowest wood to outgas) made the least smoke and the least creosote in the flue.

With an EPA certified heater, the ability to achieve much higher smoke combustion rates allows them to safely burn wood that outgasses smoke rapidly as long as the burn rates are high.  The best stoves (lowest PM emissions) will handle the driest and fastest burning wood the best and produce the least creosote.  The old airtight stoves did quite poorly with dry pine, which may be where the "myth" actually began in the first place.

This is quite a report that covers way more than PM emissions for hardwood and softwood, but I am unable to directly link to the PDF with a hyperlink.  Here is a direct link to all of the available OMNI publications (51 in total).  This one is called "Verification of Emission Factors U.S. EPA Certified Wood Heaters (Volume I)".  It is the sixth publication down on the list.

http://www.omni-environmental.com/p...blications=0&totalRows_rsPublications=51&q=po

Pauls Tiegs, the founder of OMNI Labs, is currently one of the leading researchers in the field, and OMNI was the very first lab in the country certified to do the EPA testing procedure.  There is much knowledge to be gained by reading these publications.  Mind you, they are very technical in nature and are slow going, but everyone can get something useful out of them if they put in a little time.


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## Adios Pantalones

Dry softwood gasifies much quicker.  I'd guess that with no secondary or CAT, it could make more emissions that go uncombusted in older stoves.


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## Battenkiller

moosetrek said:
			
		

> So is the plan to cut down the taller objects around your house to make it more attractive to the lightning?  So is the concern that the lightning will start the trees on fire?



Last year I was looking to buy a small plot along the Battenkill River in NY upon which to build a fishing camp.  On the way in, I was pleasantly impressed with the towering white pines along the dirt road.  Then I passed an abandoned trailer that was nearly sliced in two by a pine that came down is some storm in the distant past.  I never bought the plot, but the first thing I would have done if I had would have been to take down every pine within falling distance of the proposed cabin. ;-)


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## kettensÃ¤ge

[quote author="Carbon_Liberator" date="1299186122"]The myth that pine causes chimney fires is of Eastern origin, and it has a bit of biased truth to it. It probably developed something like thisâ€¦.

You take your typical Easterner who, year after year, burns predominantly unseasoned Oak, blissfully developing a good thick coating of creosote in his chimney. Eventually one day he finds, or someone offers him, some nice dry Pine. He then proceeds to burn a load of this nice dry Pine in the same manner as he usually burns the wet Oak expecting much the same sort of results, but instead the fire burns much hotter (the way it is suppose to) than it has ever done in the past, thus igniting the creosote, that has been developing in the chimney for years, and he has a huge chimney fire. The fire department comes and puts out the fire (hopefully saving his house and family), later the fire chief asks the homeowner how the fire got started? To which the homeowner replies, "all I did was burn a load of Pine." Thus perpetuating the myth that the Pine was the "cause" of the chimney fire and it is â€œdangerousâ€ to burn in your stove.

Or the typical easterner that is used to handling hardwoods picks up a piece of green pine that feels 1/3rd the weight of a piece of seasoned hardwood and figures "this is ready to burn", He burns it not realizing the consequences when he returns to the hardwoods. 

I would leave a few of those standing if they are really lightning rods, you may not want the lightning to head for the next highest object, like your chimney.


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## Battenkiller

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> Dry softwood gasifies much quicker.  I'd guess that with no secondary or CAT, it could make more emissions that go uncombusted in older stoves.



Yes, but even with some EPA stoves there is still a _much_ greater output of PM (by a factor of 5 as demonstrated in the study) with dry pine than with dry hardwood.  

By extension of the same logic ("dry softwood gasifies much quicker"), one might predict proportionately higher PM amounts to be produced in the exhaust at some point as the wood gets drier than 20% MC dry-basis.  At the present, I know of no studies that looked for this particular phenomenon in EPA phase II-certified stoves, but if I was the director of Hearth.com Laboratories, that would be the first thing I would examine.

IMHO it is just a leap of faith to assume that all will be well when burning dry pine in your particular heater.  Much more importantly, a very careful assessment of the actual creosote produced when doing so should always be recommended.  In short, if there's no creosote accumulation it works for you, but let's not give blanket advice to all here that the stuff is perfectly safe to burn in all heaters and in all situations, eh?

As for me, I will continue to avoid pine in my pre-EPA stove, if for no other reason than I have absolutely no need to occupy even a portion of my precious firebox volume with low BTU wood when I have an abundance of the best hardwood available.


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## Adios Pantalones

It's documented that efficiency goes DOWN at really low MC, and I think that's the reason Batt.  particles need a cool surface or extra water to condense and form problematic creosote, so while emissions *may* go up, a hotter fire with soft wood (which is often the case) seems to compensate for any increase in emissions; at least it does not directly follow that increased particle necessarily means more creosote.

Pine burns fine with no visible emissions in my stove, and in fact makes burning "questionable" hardwood much easier and cleaner.  I think it therefore prevents creosote in my, and others' who use this technique, real world situation.


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## Beetle-Kill

BK, that makes sense. Without getting into it too deeply, my big, hot fires did gunk up my pipe and cap. then I switched to small, hot fires and things have stayed clean. Now , with the more moderate temps, full loads but a much lower T-stat setting have maintained the "cleanliness" of the flue and cap. That is with a 90/10 split of Pine/Aspen. Seems the Cat can only burn so much before being overwhelmed.


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## pen

Well answered guys.  Please start a new thread if you want to continue the discussion.

If you start a new thread please begin it with useful information and with an appropriate title that will describe the discussion and be search-able so as to be helpful to others in the future.  

pen


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