# A Guy Who Obviously Believed the Hype



## Eric Johnson (Oct 16, 2007)

To wit:

"You can burn green wood in these things."

and,

"This is the top of the line unit and very efficient, so it burns less wood than the competition."

This guy has a beautiful new setup and a very nice looking installation. It's the perfect application for a big OWB--He doesn't have any neighbors, the prevailing winds blow away from his house and he's surrounded by potential fuel.

Unfortunately, it's the middle of October and he's got what looks to me like about 5 cords of (unprocessed) green firewood, when that Central Boiler is going to need around 15 cords of dry wood to get him through the season. If I was in the firewood business, I'd be setting 10 to 15 cords aside to sell to this guy (at a premium) around the middle of December.


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## wahoowad (Oct 16, 2007)

And he drives a Mercedes. kaching kaching


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 16, 2007)

OK, 20 cords of wood for the Merc.


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## Metal (Oct 16, 2007)

There is a tree right next to the boiler just screaming "burn me."  He is probably waiting for the leaves to fall off before cutting it down and shoving it into the boiler.  The only dry wood I see is the high line pole.


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## babalu87 (Oct 16, 2007)

That could be an older Mercedes.

I know a guy that has a beautiful Mercedes diesel. It had a blowed up engine and he got it for a song, fixed the engine ( he is a diesel mech. by trade) and is going on about 6 years with it.

I am sooooooo glad I didnt make the plunge for an OWB, they are the Hummer of wood burning devices.


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## woodconvert (Oct 16, 2007)

"“You can burn green wood in these things.”

and,

“This is the top of the line unit and very efficient, so it burns less wood than the competition.” "

Well, they do "burn" green wood but it depends on what the definition of efficiency is..is...

I know two people that have them and seem to like them. They like the fact that the mess is kept outside and you don't have to worry about a chimney fire. I agree with them on that...but they seem to burn 2.5 times as much wood as I do (and I burn a lot) and they both seem to have a lot of mechanical issues like leaks in the boiler and they are dead in the water if/when the power goes out.

I'll stick with my free standing wood stove.


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## DiscoInferno (Oct 16, 2007)

babalu87 said:
			
		

> I am sooooooo glad I didnt make the plunge for an OWB, they are the Hummer of wood burning devices.



Yes, but to run an OWB you need big wood, while operating a (non-military) Hummer would seem to indicate ... small wood.   :coolgrin:


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## carbon neutral (Oct 16, 2007)

Assuming he is in New York he is on barrowed time with that thing at least if Elliot Spitzer has his way.


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 16, 2007)

Are you speaking in general terms, clarkharms, or is there some specific proposal coming out of the governor's office to ban OWBs in NYS? In any event, I suspect existing installations would be exempt.

This guy really has a beautiful house, garage and spread. I've been admiring the boiler installation all summer long. It would make a good promotional photograph for Central Boiler. But I'm a little shocked at the state of his wood supply. Obviously, he's been given some bad information. Either that, or he's engaging in some wishful thinking.


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## carbon neutral (Oct 16, 2007)

I read an article in the NY times about how Elliot Spitzer is leading studies and trying to push legislation to ban OWB.  Here is a link to that article: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/o...Topics/People/S/Spitzer, Eliot L.&oref=slogin

Even if grand fathered I wonder about personal litigation someone could bring onto their neighbor.  I know of one case that is pending in Mass where one neighbor is suing his neighbor over quality of life issues brought on by an OWB.  

I just think on top of being inefficient pigs OWB have many logistical problems associated with them.


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 16, 2007)

That's not exactly an unbiased opinion, but he makes some valid points.

I think Eliot's got his hands full in his war with Joe Bruno, so this may be on the back burner, so to speak. And, like all NYC politicians, there's a disconnect between his point of view and that of most of his upstate constituents. Banning OWBs in Westchester and Nausau Counties might be a popular move, but depriving the good people of Lewis County of their primary source of heat (for which they paid dearly) is going to look like the downstate haves beating up on the upstate have-nots. And that's not a good position for any politician to be in.

If you banned the installation of all OWBs in NYS today and left everyone who owns one alone, they'd all be scrap in 10 years anyway. That would be the smartest political approach, IMO.

That's not to say that municipalities and local governments shouldn't be allowed to enact restrictions that make sense on a local level. To me that's a more practical approach.


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## carbon neutral (Oct 16, 2007)

I would also have a problem with big government getting involved as I don't think they would be able to differentiate between a clean burning boiler and a "smoke dragon".  For instance all wood boilers are now banned in Suffolk county NY.  Why when a tarm or similiar gasification boiler is proven to burn cleaner than many wood stoves.  If I installed one in my house and my neighbor saw smoke from it he could report me and I would have to get rid of it plus pay a fine.  My biggest problem is with the manufacturers of these owb units who are pushy with making a sale and not really informing consumers about the possible problems they may face once installed.  Also their claims about efficiency are totally unfounded.  
As far as your neighbors wood supply, check out this device advertised on e-bay.  This is what people with OWB are loading into their fire boxes.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Outdoor-Wood-Fu...ryZ41987QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## mayhem (Oct 16, 2007)

wahoowad said:
			
		

> And he drives a Mercedes. kaching kaching



A 20 year old Mercedes.

My brother in law has an OWB...it works well but it definitely uses alot of wodd.  He said he burns about a cord a wwek in the winter.  He had his oil boiler removed.


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## GeeWizMan (Oct 16, 2007)

OWB - I have been coming across this abbreviation on this forum with increasing regularity.  I am not exactly sure what it means but I will take a stab at it.  

OWB = other world business
OWB = outdoor window box
OWB = our winking brother 
OWB = outside with bath (I sense I'm getting close)
OWB = outside water boiler - That's it isn't it?


I even tried the search thingy up there.  Sorry, I have a cold and my brain ain't working so good.  Am I right?

George


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## jqgs214 (Oct 16, 2007)

oUTDOOR WOOD BURNER


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 16, 2007)

Oh, What Balls!
Obstinate White Boy
Ornery Wood Burner


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## jqgs214 (Oct 16, 2007)

OLD WIFE BEATER


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## GeeWizMan (Oct 16, 2007)

Thank you gentlemen.  

George


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 16, 2007)

Obviously Worth Banning

(not that I necessarily agree)


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## MrGriz (Oct 17, 2007)

Oh Where the Bleep is all that smoke coming from...


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## carbon neutral (Oct 17, 2007)

Maybe he is just an environmentalist like Al Gore and burns cooking oil in the mercedes.  It would be wonderful to live near that guy with the owb and car together you would have a lovely smokey french fry aroma!


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## Shak (Oct 17, 2007)

I hope he's only planning on burning wood in that thing. I was talking to a guy here in Maine about his OWB. He loved it . Only used five or six cord of wood per year. To supliment his wood supply he would soak bales of mulch hay and let them freeze. When he got a good hot wood fire going he would toss in one of the hay-cicles and PRESTO! The thig would burn for days. I'm surprised his neighbors havn't stuffed him into the boiler. The smell and the smoke must be awful. OWB owners can be their own worst enemies.


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## JRHill (Oct 22, 2007)

Folks, I'm a newbie here and the picture of the Central Boiler brings back good memories.

This is my first season away from it.  Heated the house (3500 sq ft), shop (1200 sq ft) and two greenhouses
with it in north central Nebraska.  For 6 years, the only hiccup was a $5 damper solenoid and one pump
cartridge (out of 5).  Yeah, it used a lot of wood but it put out a lot of heat - Safely.  The only way to duplicate
the work it did was with 4 separate wood burners.  And with kids (and their mother) operating wood burners
when I was working away from the house we had near disaster several times in pre boiler days.

What really matters is finding the best solution for the situation.  I had excellent results with the boiler.  I
never mentioned 7 kids and the perpetual hot water...

JR


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 23, 2007)

Hey JR. Welcome to Hearth.com and especially our new Boiler Room.

I work with loggers in New England and the Mid Atlantic and since most of them have access to free wood, they tend to have OWBs and like you, think they're great. If you live out in the country and have lots of free or cheap wood and want a lot of heat, why not? I was talking to a logger in Minnesota and he said, "You know those people who say it's a bad idea to have a heated garage? You know why they say that? 'Cause they ain't got one!"

My folks in Wisconsin have a Heatmor and it works like a charm. It smokes, but no worse than the woodstoves we had when I was growing up. It dissipates before it leaves the yard, and it leaves nothing but unlimited hot water and a warm house behind.

As I said, this guy has a nice boiler and a beautiful setup. But he's obviously hurting for fuel. And dry wood is always better than green, no matter what the salesman says.

Me, I live in the village, surrounded by college professors and lawyers, so smoke and wood consumption is a consideration. I'm grateful there's a boiler to meet my needs.


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## jklingel (Oct 23, 2007)

OK, folks. First post here, so somebody clue me in. I gather from the comments here that many of you do not love OWBs. Please elaborate. Are ALL OWBs for stink? Are the gasification boilers good, bad, or indifferent? I just saw my neighbor's 2 or 3 yr old AquaTherm (which he loves) and it was barely smoking. Dan says it never does smoke much, and he loads it once a day, except when very cold (it is not a gasifier, either). Shoot me the skinny on these boilers, as I am building a new house w/in the next few yrs and am eager to burn some wood.... somehow. Thanks. john


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 23, 2007)

It depends on who you talk to. I think OWBs get scapegoated for a lot of pollution caused by woodstoves and other types of wood burners--both older units and newer ones being operated incorrectly. Or indoor boilers and furnaces, which are exempt from EPA regs. It's just they're not parked in the backyard where everyone can see them. One big problem with OWBs is one of their big selling points: You can burn anything in them....and people do.

But the facts are these:

Gasifiers burn about half as much wood for a comparable amount of heat;
They're two to three times as efficient as an OWB as a result;
They make no visible smoke or smell when operating.

BUT.....

They need very dry wood to work properly;
They cost more than most OWBs;
Setting them up right is more complex and expensive than a typical OWB installation;
They tend to go inside the house, which can have insurance implications

Some companies are making outdoor gasifiers which aren't cheap, but I think they work pretty well if you feed them dry wood.

So if efficiency, smoke and wood supply are not your big concerns, go with an OWB. If they are, then you should seriously consider a gasifier.

It's as simple as that in my book.


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## jklingel (Oct 23, 2007)

Eric: Thanks for the clarification. Am researching like crazy. Tarm seems to have good quality, and Aqua-Therm will be bringing out a gasifier in the middle of '08, the Omega HE. I will keep reading, looking for others. j


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## slowzuki (Oct 23, 2007)

I'll stick my nose in too, many of the outdoor boilers here are way oversized and end up sitting and smoking all day long stinking out neighbours.


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## saichele (Oct 23, 2007)

I love that loading system.  Load up about a face cord at a time...

Steve


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 23, 2007)

Tarm makes a great gasifier, but it takes shorter wood (20") than the EKO which was a big consideration for me, since I have quite a bit stockpiled and it's all 24".

Maybe it's just because now that I have one I pay closer attention, but it seems to me that gasification is starting to take here in North America. The technology has been around for generations, and it's been big in Europe for awhile, but the American market seems to be evolving in that direction at a rapid pace.

Hopefully prices will come down and we'll all have more options in the future as a result.


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## jklingel (Oct 23, 2007)

That 20" log length is a consideration, but since I have not killed a tree yet, it is not that big of a deal. I figure that having to cut the logs a little shorter will only add a tad to the overall wood collection process. I may regret that some day.... Does anyone have any unbiased data (aka, Consumer Reports type) on comparing the REAL efficiency of various gasifiers? I have only read "go European", vs American, as the Euros have refined their boilers over many, many years. Fuel prices have been high there forever, so I do not doubt that. From what I read/see/hear of the Viessmann oil boiler (they don't import their wood gasifier yet), that may be true. That is sure one nice boiler.


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 23, 2007)

I think when you're into the Euro-style models (Tarm, Orlan, PK Pyro, Atmos, BioMax, EconoBurn, etc.) they're all of pretty similar design, and I believe the actual efficiencies are in the 80-90 percent range. Of course, who knows what they actually produce most of the time?

Tarm has the best warranty (20 years) and they've been around in the U.S. for a long time. The best time to buy a Tarm is in the spring, when they go on sale. At least they did this past spring with a pretty significant discount. The Orlan EKO is a little cheaper for a little bigger boiler, but the warranty is only 5 years. The one domestic mfg that comes closest to this design is the EconoBurn, which is manufactured in NY State. They were about $2,000 more than the EKO when I was shopping, but the ever-weakening dollar might help make them more competitive. Their prices haven't changed--just that the imported stuff has become more expensive. The thing that put me off was that they won't honor the warranty if you do the install yourself. No fun.

Wood length shouldn't matter unless, like me, you have a bunch of 24 to 26-inch wood and the boiler you're looking at takes a max of 20.

The OWB mfgrs make some pretty wild efficiency claims. Usually they're measuring either heat transfer efficiency or combustion efficiency--but not a combined number for the two, which is the only number that matters. Obviously, a smoky OWB can't be nearly as efficient as a clean-burning gasifier, since the smoke represents lost heat potential. So for OWB mfgrs to imply 80% efficiency is ludicrous, but people believe it. More like 40 or 50%, from what I read. I've also seen OWB dealers at trade shows toss a few chunks into the firebox and say, "That wood will burn all day long." And it will, too--BECAUSE IT'S NOT HEATING ANYTHING. Buyer beware; don't believe everything you hear, read or want to believe.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 27, 2007)

jklingel said:
			
		

> From what I read/see/hear of the Viessmann oil boiler (they don't import their wood gasifier yet), that may be true. That is sure one nice boiler.



WTH?? I didn't know Viessmann makes a wood gasifier? If it's anything like my oil unit, it's probably very good. . .and very expensive.

Tell me more, Dude!

Jimbo


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Nov 27, 2007)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> jklingel said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Most of the European boilers are not imported to the US.  The technology over there is rather impressive, although the complexity of it means that repairing a system can be an all-day affair, given the variety of parts and the prohibitive expense of keeping "one of each" on a service truck.

Oddly enough, the most popular Viessmann oil boiler in the US is actually a Biasi design and, IIRC, manufactured by a Spanish company whose name I forget.

Joe


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## FLASHMAN (Jan 23, 2008)

I really take issue with people who burn Green wood in these things. 

First of all, ANY dealer worth a damn will tell you, you CAN burn green wood, but you SHOULD burn seasoned, and as dry as possible.

Also, just like with ANY OTHER wood burning device, if you burn dry, seasoned wood, you'l get much higher efficiency, as well as much lower emissions. I keep seeing people saying that they're inefficient, but I know more than a few people near me with Central Boilers who burn about 8 cords of DRY PINE when they burn, usually late September to mid-May... 

To me, that sounds like a bargian when you consider, in most places you can get pine FREE from land clearing businesses...


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 23, 2008)

FLASHMAN said:
			
		

> I really take issue with people who burn Green wood in these things.
> 
> First of all, ANY dealer worth a damn will tell you, you CAN burn green wood, but you SHOULD burn seasoned, and as dry as possible.
> 
> ...



LOL, not sure what they're heating, but 8 cord of dry pine would not heat my house, no matter whether it's a CB, a GW, and EKO, a tarm, a Viessmann . . .yada yada yada

Unless you have access to true PITCH PINE . . .


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