# Looking for a week in the life of a indoor wood boiler owner



## pulse (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi! This is my first post here although I have been lurking for a while. I currently heat my water, house (2800 sq ft), and garage (600sq ft)with a standard owb. I am quite happy with it, I don't have anywhere near the smoke issues so many talk about, and the maintance is a non issue. I light one fire a season, and remove ashes twice a month, load typically once in 24 hours. I use between 8-10 cord a year, which takes about 40 hours to cut and stack, I split very little. I do know however it is not nearly as efficient as the gasification boilers, or the newer owb gassers. That is where my question comes in, guys with a gasification boiler or owb gassers please tell me your routine for a week. How many times do you start a fire, typically how many times do you load in 24 hours, what other maintance do you have to do I don't know of? I am not trying to put down anyones setup so please don't bash mine. As I said I am quite happy with mine I do not plan on changing it anytime soon I am just trying to educate myself on other options down the road. I think most of my setup could be reused for another, ie. logstor pipe, hx's in the furnace, dhw, and garage.


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## Nofossil (Dec 28, 2010)

A typical winter day looks like this:

Sometime in the late afternoon or early evening, put on the bunny slippers and walk down to the basement. Build a fire, light, wait for gasification (ten minutes). I usually play a round of darts or shoot a rack on the pool table during this time. Ash removal happens every two or three days (major or minor, extra one or two minutes).

About an hour later, add an armful of logs. Less than two minutes, including up and down stairs travel time.

At bedtime, load it up (two armfuls). Less than two minutes, including up and down stairs travel time.

I heat 3500 square feet plus DHW and a hot tub with just over 4 cords of mixed wood - about 50% poplar, red cedar, or other low value wood and 50% hardwood.

Many times I'll be able to skip a day, so my effort is nothing at all.


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## Chris Hoskin (Dec 28, 2010)

pulse, I have a great deal of respect for nofossil, but I must interject that his experience is not typical.......most of us don't have the bunny slippers.


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## chuck172 (Dec 28, 2010)

I have about an 1800 sq. ft. house. I'll burn about 7 cords. Load it up at dawn and again at dusk.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 28, 2010)

And I'm not sure NoFo wears the slippers anymore, since last I saw them, they were on the beach!






My 'indoor' hydronic is in detached space. I load three or four times a day. I do this based on my schedule. I remove two scoops of ashes once aweek. More often when I'm burning paper. I start one fire a year.


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## pulse (Dec 28, 2010)

Wow I have been looking for a set of slippers like that! Seriously though I am already confused, 3500 ft plus dhw plus hot tub on just over 4 cord. vs 1800sq ft with 7. Is the difference due to home construction or system design? I would think Vermont would be colder then NJ? ISeeDeadBTUs do you have storage? If not is that why you load 3 or 4 times a day? Keep the replys (and pics) coming guys!


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## muncybob (Dec 28, 2010)

We have just a "basic" set up....that is, no storage, no solar, etc.  House is around 2200 sq ft...very old farm house so I think the walls have minimal(at best) insulation except for the 1000 sq ft addition we put on a few years ago that is very well insulated.  My winter weekly routine is basically: 

In my robe & slippers walk down to the unfinished/uninsulated basement & load boiler at around 6:15 am...repeat again at noon to 1pm(wife does this since she works 3rd shift) but this will be a smaller load of wood as she hardly ever puts a lot in. I'll "check" the boiler at 5pm when I come home from work just to be sure wife put in enough to get me to bedtime, usually have to add some. Around 10:30 - 11pm I load her up for the overnight burn. If the Mrs. would load the boiler to capacity in the early afternoon I'm sure I could skip the 5pm "inspection". 
Clean the boiler  each Saturday...fairly easy and quick routine of about 15 minutes or so. This is basically inspecting the fresh air inlet "flapper" and wipe rim with damp cloth if needed..pull cleaning rod through tubes...scrape ash build up from inside doors and empty ash pan. I probably could do this every other week but this works for me. Also on Saturday I bring into the basement the next week's anticipated load of wood. 

We go through about 4.5 cords of mostly hardwood each year for heat and DHW. I must admit we were going with an OWB originally but the idea of tending to the fire in my slippers was just too appealing! Unfortunately Santa didn't bring me any bunny types.


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## stee6043 (Dec 28, 2010)

I have a very similar routine to Nofossil sans the fancy footwear.  I typically have sandles on that are held together by duct tape (not making this up).

I get home from work at roughly 6PM these days.  I grab a cold beer and head downstairs after changing my clothes and appeasing any babies, dogs or wives that need attention.  I turn on the radio and choose a station that matches the day at work I just had.  I walk to my slider, grab roughly 1/3 of a Radio Flyer worth of wood from under my deck, pull the wagon to my boiler (a long 25 foot commute), toss wood in (carefully) and light fire from the lower chamber with a quick touch of a propane torch.  At this point my beer is 1/3 gone (5-10 minutes maybe?).  From here I typically tinker with whatever is on my work bench or go back upstairs for a few minutes while the flue heats up.  Once my flue temp hits 400 (15-20 minutes after start) I close the damper and hit go.

Depending on the weather I'll swing back downstairs after 1-2 hours to throw in another 1/2-2/3 wagon full (see Radio Flyer).  And before I go to bed (usually between 10 and 11) I make one last trip downstairs to throw in a full wagon (full firebox) of wood.  At this point I've spent maybe 20 minutes tending the fire and I'm done for the day.  I clean out my ashes once a week max.

I heat 3,200 square feet on just over three cord of wood.  I heat from October 31st until the wood runs out.  Last year I made it to the second week of March on 3.3 cord.  This year I'm keeping the house a little warmer so my goal is March 1st on wood heat.  I currently keep the house 70 during the day, 68 at night.  Last year I ran 70 during the day and 66 at night.


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## musclecar joe (Dec 28, 2010)

Wow  I am very confused.  I have a 3000 sq ft home. well insulated. baseboard rads and an econoburn 150 with no storage and I burn at least 10 cord of dried hardwood ( oak,ash,cherry,maple etc)per year. 

I must be doing something wrong. I read all over the forums that most are burning 4-5 cords of wood, can someone tell me why i burn so much? I do understand storage would help, and if i had radiant floor it would make a difference. In my situation adding storage doesnt really give me enough saved btu's to make a difference since i have to keep my temps on the boiler above 165 to heat my rads, I would be only storing btus for about 2 hours worth of heat.  from what I have been reading here there are a lot of people without storage and still burn less than me. I bought an indoor gasifier because i believed i would be saving on wood consumption vs. a outdoor boiler. If i would have known I was going to burn the same amount of wood I would have bought the outdoor unit saved a few thousand and only load 2 times a day instead of 3. Am I the dumbest person in the world or have I done something wrong.

I read here about no insulation or storage and burning 4 cord of wood????? how is this possible?  What is the secret to only burning 4-5 cords of wood? 

Tired of cutting and stacking 10 cord a year.

Musclecar Joe


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 28, 2010)

I can't say for sure, but I think I burn about 8 cord. But it's that stuff no one wants to burn, Red Oak ;-) 

I'm not exact on the amount because I don't build a stack, measure it, then burn it without adding to it. I hate to burn up my wood so I keep getting more while I'm burning. I have no storage, but I have good insulation and radiant.


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## Nofossil (Dec 28, 2010)

I don't know what the critical variables are for wood consumption. Our house is well insulated and pretty tight - 20 years old. My wood is medium quality, but dry. I almost never idle. I build relatively short hot fires. I had similar wood consumption with and without storage. We used about 720 gallons of fuel oil per year before converting to wood. We have a decent amount of southern exposure with large windows. We keep the house between 70 and 72.


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## muncybob (Dec 28, 2010)

musclecar joe said:
			
		

> Wow  I am very confused.  I have a 3000 sq ft home. well insulated. baseboard rads and an econoburn 150 with no storage and I burn at least 10 cord of dried hardwood ( oak,ash,cherry,maple etc)per year.
> 
> Musclecar Joe



Are you talking face cords or actual full 4X4X8 cords of wood?  
Don't take my reference to insulation as having none...I'm sure there is some in my walls but I'm also sure it's very minimal. At best I think we have some rigid board under our siding and probably newspaper and the such in our interior walls.
Now the basement is not insulated at all but the residual heat from the boiler keeps it very comfotable down there and we get benefit of heat rise into the living space above.


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## jebatty (Dec 28, 2010)

> ...guys with a gasification boiler or owb gassers please tell me your routine for a week. How many times do you start a fire, typically how many times do you load in 24 hours, what other maintance do you have to do I donâ€™t know of?



Since I heat my shop, and not house, need to adjust a little. 1500 sq ft, radiant floor only, 1000 gal pressurized storage. In-floor sensor/thermostat keeps the floor at 61F with a 1F differential. Inside air temp 55-60F. So far this winter, -10F to 25F, have burned 1.75 cords of pine slab wood, low heat value, one burn of 4-6 hours every second to third day, about 135 lbs/wood per burn. I fire the boiler when storage drops to 100F +/-, and then heat to 180-190F. Heating is from storage, with the boiler used to recharge the storage.

Maintenance: 1) every 3 burns or so pull out the fly ash that has accumulated in the gasification chamber; 2 times/month brush the fire tubes; 3) as needed, remove excess accumulated ash from the firebox chamber (have not done this yet this heating season); 4) end of heating season, clean and seal up the boiler.


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## musclecar joe (Dec 28, 2010)

muncybob said:
			
		

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Full Cords.  4x4x8  I have 30 4x4x4 pallets stacked and shrunk wrapped i bring into my garage where my boliler is located as needed pallet at a time with a fork lift. my insulation is R16 in the walls. and my basement is a finished basement with insulated walls R16 (part of the 3000 sq ft i mentioned earlier)


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## stee6043 (Dec 28, 2010)

musclecar joe said:
			
		

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Shrink wrapping is probably not a good idea.  Do you shrink wrap before or after the wood has seasoned?  Have you ever measured the moisture of your wood?

Most of us gasser burners running in the 4 cord ballpark or running well seasoned hardwood.  2 years or more, less than 20% moisture content.  Burning green wood will cause your consumption to go up (perhaps quite significantly).

Storage does not significantly impact efficiency of properly sized wood burners.  It's more for convenience of scheduling the fires for when you feel like burning.


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## musclecar joe (Dec 28, 2010)

stee6043 said:
			
		

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## mikeyny (Dec 28, 2010)

Well, I really don't have any set routine, I put wood in early am, reload at 6 or 7 pm, house is a cool 60 or so, reload full and then again before bed, house is again cool in the am 60 ish. If we are home we burn lots more wood. almost 3000 sf old house somewhat insulated and some new windows. about 10 full cords a yr give or take a few, but if I had a pair of those slippers in my boiler rm that jimbo posted I'd be there 24/7, she's so hot she could prolly heat house all yr long, no need for wood. (Well, maybe some kinda wood)


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## chuck172 (Dec 28, 2010)

My firebox holds 5.3 cu.ft. of wood. A cord is 128 cu. ft.
That means if you load your firebox full, have a full stacked cord of wood, you will get about 25 loads out that cord.
Two loads a day, you'll burn thats about 2 cords a month.
A five month heating season will be about 10 cords.
Personally, I really can't skip many days, nor can I get by with less than two loads a day very often.


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## mheroth1 (Dec 28, 2010)

I have a 30 yr old essex boiler that I use to heat my 3000 sq ft house.  I use about 5 - 6 full chord of semi seasoned wood per year.  I typically top off the boiler at about 5:00 am (when I leave for work) and then check it at 5 pm.  I usually top it off again at 9:00pm.  I clean the ash out about every -10 day.  takes about 15 min.


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## goosegunner (Dec 28, 2010)

[/quote]
Moisture is less than <17%. wood is seasoned for 1-2 years. shrinkwrapped after seasoned.  its is perplexing to me.[/quote]

Is your boiler in house or shed?

Any underground pipe?

gg


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## musclecar joe (Dec 28, 2010)

Moisture is less than <17%. wood is seasoned for 1-2 years. shrinkwrapped after seasoned.  its is perplexing to me.[/quote]

Is your boiler in house or shed?

Any underground pipe?

gg[/quote]

boiler in my garage. 40 feet of underground pipe.


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## pulse (Dec 28, 2010)

Well my first thought after reading these posts is a indoor boiler has no business being in a outbuilding. I didn't know there would be so much tending and topping off the fire. No big deal if it is in your basement or garage but not something I would like to do in foul weather. My second thought is what is up with the crazy difference in wood usage. 4-5 cord is what I was expecting but 3.3 to 10? Interesting reading keep um coming!


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## pulse (Dec 28, 2010)

musclear joe what type of underground pipe are you using, and do you notice any snow melt?


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## musclecar joe (Dec 28, 2010)

chuck172 said:
			
		

> My firebox holds 5.3 cu.ft. of wood. A cord is 128 cu. ft.
> That means if you load your firebox full, have a full stacked cord of wood, you will get about 25 loads out that cord.
> Two loads a day, you'll burn thats about 2 cords a month.
> A five month heating season will be about 10 cords.
> Personally, I really can't skip many days, nor can I get by with less than two loads a day very often.



sound the same as me. except i load 3 times a day at 7am then 5 pm and top off at 1130pm during december,january and Feb.  the other cold months i can get away with loading 2 times a day. morning and night.


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## musclecar joe (Dec 28, 2010)

pulse said:
			
		

> musclear joe what type of underground pipe are you using, and do you notice any snow melt?



insulated pex. no snow melt.


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## sweetheat (Dec 29, 2010)

My week with 2 floors new construction 2352 square feet radiant in floor haunched perimeter beam 2" insulated slab on grade. Spruce 2x6 T&G walls/roof with 3 inch Dow styrofoam insulation 1/2 dead air space 7/8 boarding boards, 3/8 butt cedar shingles 5 inches to the weather. This is a work shop during the day and the thermostat is kept at 64 degrees 1st floor.  2nd floor is cooler  about 58 but no activity up there so, About 4:00 P.M. check the 806 gal storage tank temps and weather outlook for the next few days. If storage is less then 120 degrees and temps are below freezing outside grab a few sheets of newspaper, a few sticks of cedar kindling, 4 or 5 small splits, 5 or six larger splits and place it all in the Tarm solo plus 40, light the auto propane gasser lighter and stick it in the top or bottom either way light my fire. In about 5 minutes just crack the door to make sure the fire is roaring. close secondary lower door, close the bypass damper, hit the fan switch, sweep up turn out the lights and walk down to my house for dinner. It's now about 4:15.  My total wood consumption 2 full cords of split very dry maple, beech, ash, hornbeam, oak. About 15 minutes a day in cold weather, and every other day in milder months. My first fire was December 4th my last fire April 16th. Once a week clean fire box and lower chamber. Once a year clean boiler tubes, turbulators, smoke pipe and chimney clean out. Every other year clean 6" stainless chimney flue. It doesn't get any easier. sweetheat


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## mr.fixit (Dec 29, 2010)

pulse said:
			
		

> Well my first thought after reading these posts is a indoor boiler has no business being in a outbuilding. I didn't know there would be so much tending and topping off the fire. No big deal if it is in your basement or garage but not something I would like to do in foul weather. My second thought is what is up with the crazy difference in wood usage. 4-5 cord is what I was expecting but 3.3 to 10? Interesting reading keep um coming!


   I think there are so many variables when it comes to burning wood including;amount of insulation,house style,temp set point,wood type,where the boiler is located and I could go on and on and on.Boiler location is big .My boiler is in a unattached garage about 30ft from the house.(storage tank also)The garage is insulated.Just from the heat off of the chimney,the boiler,and the exposed piping it stays at 50*to60* in there.Last year before insulating everything well it stayed warmer yet!So I can see an advantage to having the boiler in the basement.
So back to the original question.I fully load the boiler in the AM.Normally coals left  from nite before so it gets going pretty fast.
 I reload in the evenings between 8 and ten.Very seldom do I start a fire from scratch,maybe once or twice a week.
Colder weather takes a extra load sometime during the day.My boiler isnt oversized,so it seldom idles much.If you count the garage I am heating over 4000sq.ft,on about 9 or 10 full cord.


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## ihookem (Dec 29, 2010)

Musclecarbob, there is something real wrong. I would get a heat loss test done to find out where your heat is going. I have a house that's very tight and as a result my house gets damp. Windows have moisture, doors get damp too. We get  no static shocks in our house neither. I open all the doors and windows to get the moisture out every other day fro 5 min. My point is, if you have a poor insulated house it will be dry with all the wood you are burning and might tell you something. Many don't have the insulation they think they have. If it's damp it's tight. I'd look into heat loss from boiler to house, then jet setting on your boiler. Something is wrong. I also saved wood by keeping my boiler set at 160*, but it does make more creosote. In my 2200 sq ft. ranch I burned  a bit over 3 cords last year at 70*


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## sweetheat (Dec 29, 2010)

ihookem, if it's damp you need air circulation. your vapor barrier is preventing moisture from escaping causing moisture buildup on your windows and doors. not to hijack this thread but think of the amount of moisture produced in a house over the years, many gallons. A house needs to breath just like you do. I've seen the results of a tight house, mold, mildew, water condensing and running down the cold side of the vapor barrier and rotting the studs. pulse I'm not bashing your set up but that 10 cords is a lot of wood to handle it could be so much easier. my 2 cents. sweetheat


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## pulse (Dec 29, 2010)

sweetheat said:
			
		

> pulse I'm not bashing your set up but that 10 cords is a lot of wood to handle it could be so much easier. my 2 cents. sweetheat



I don't know it seems like half of the responses guys are using similar amounts to me? Or are you thinking 10 cord in a standard owb=5 cord in a gasser?


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## stee6043 (Dec 29, 2010)

pulse said:
			
		

> Well my first thought after reading these posts is a indoor boiler has no business being in a outbuilding. I didn't know there would be so much tending and topping off the fire. No big deal if it is in your basement or garage but not something I would like to do in foul weather. My second thought is what is up with the crazy difference in wood usage. 4-5 cord is what I was expecting but 3.3 to 10? Interesting reading keep um coming!



This thread seems to suggest that visiting a gasser two to three times a day is pretty standard.  Every OWB user I know visits their boiler twice a day, every day.  If you're going to suit-up to walk outside to service a gasser you're going to throw in half the amount of wood compared to the OWB.  So you're still spending less time out there.  There are lots of guys on this board with their downdraft gasser outside who would never think of having them in their basements...


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## sweetheat (Dec 29, 2010)

pulse, with good insulation and storage a gasser should be using less then 4 cords a winter. Not a clue what an OWB would use, I know a lot. If I were living in my shop the season of burn would be longer so I'm guesstimating 4 cords usage. I used 2 cord last winter to keep it a toasty 64 degrees inside, excellent for working on timbers. IMHO the best place for a gasser is inside the home if it will fit. I have no smoke roll out issues because I load it and light it and leave it alone. Sweetheat


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## Paso (Dec 29, 2010)

After reading this entire post, I would have really like to know what the average outside temperature is the area of the country that the boiler is working.

In my early days of reading the boiler room I did things based on what other people said worked great for them, however what I didn't realize is the outside temperature in there area was not anywhere near what temp I was setting my boiler up to work in.

We don't see 32 f very often after October 20th and we get weeks of -35  I think with the wind blowing in every crack most places cool down quick.

Never mind filling boiler in bunny slippers I'd be wearing shorts filling my OWB if the temps were as balmy as some of you guys are filling


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## chuck172 (Dec 29, 2010)

What I'm having a hard time understanding is that unless everyone is just adding a few pc's of wood each time, how can anyone refill a gassifier with its 5cu. ft. or bigger firebox- 2 or three times a day, everyday during the heating season and still burn 4 or less cords/year.


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## musclecar joe (Dec 29, 2010)

chuck172 said:
			
		

> What I'm having a hard time understanding is that unless everyone is just adding a few pc's of wood each time, how can anyone refill a gassifier with its 5cu. ft. or bigger firebox- 2 or three times a day, everyday during the heating season and still burn 4 or less cords/year.



I am with you. i fill mine 3 times a day to the top. if i only filled it half way i would only have heat for about 3-4 hours (no storage). all i can say is i cant see how its possible to heat a well insulated home in western Pa with 4-5 cords of wood with an indoor gasser. i see all of these posts from much colder parts of the country and it just perplexes me.  I know there are a lot of variables that go in to wood consumption and I believe I have addressed all of them to improve my system.  at this point I am not sure it was worth the money I spent. If I cant improve my wood consumption I may just sell my indoor gasser and replace it with an outdoor boiler that has a much larger firebox resulting in less work by no longer splitting and stacking, 12-14 hour burns still burning 10 cords a year.  I sure hope someone here can help me get my wood usage down to 4-5 full cords.   

Musclecar Joe


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## stee6043 (Dec 29, 2010)

chuck172 said:
			
		

> What I'm having a hard time understanding is that unless everyone is just adding a few pc's of wood each time, how can anyone refill a gassifier with its 5cu. ft. or bigger firebox- 2 or three times a day, everyday during the heating season and still burn 4 or less cords/year.



I guess someone should define "fill".  ha.  When I personally "fill" my firebox it is to the bottom of the loading door.  I never fill it past this point.  I suspect in reality this is 70-80% "full"??  I do this once per day.  My other two "fillings" are well below half full.  

The bigger problem is this, I suspect:  The advertised EKO upper chamber capacity is based on the dimensions of the inside of the box wall to wall.  This is way off for me.  I cut 80+% of my splits to 16 inches long.  So anytime I "fill" my firebox 80% full vertically I still have 4" of unused capacity in the horizontal.  This is another 20% unused.  I also toss several pieces in diagonally during startup.  Further wasted capacity.

At the end of the day when I "fill" my firebox it is much closer to half full in reality.  Doing the math with the amount of wood I know I'm burning I'm closer to 3 cubic feet of wood per day going in my boiler on an average winter day.  4 cubic feet per day when it's really cold outside (single digits or below zero).  And all of this with a boiler with a stated upper chamber capacity of 6.5 cubic feet...


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## chuck172 (Dec 29, 2010)

If I were to "half fill" my firebox twice a day in N.J, I'd be awful cold.


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## musclecar joe (Dec 29, 2010)

stee6043 said:
			
		

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When i say fill, I mean I cant put another piece of wood in my firebox. I am filled to the very top of the box.


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## stee6043 (Dec 29, 2010)

Perhaps it would be helpful for people to start at the beginning, not the end.

All theoretical, of course:

Per the link below a cord of Black Cherry (which I burn almost exclusively) is good for 21,000,000 BTU's per cord.
Based on real measurements I take from my storage tanks I know that my average heat load on an average winter day is 20,000 BTU/hr.
My average daily heatload is 480,000 BTU.
Based on 100% efficiency, no loss, no shenanigans, I should be able to heat for 43 days on 1 cord of black cherry.  In reality we operate closer to 80% efficiency and some days my heat loads can approach 40,000BTU per hour.  There are also days that I sip the heat at closer to 10,000BTU per hour thanks to solar gain and warmer temps.

So in all....I try to heat a full four months every year on roughly 3-1/4 cord of cherry.  Note that the type of wood you burn has a huge impact on how many cord it should take you.  And I'm also not sure everyone really understands what their actual heat loss is.  The term "loads per day" leaves a lot to be desired.

http://chimneysweeponline.com/howood.htm

EDIT:  I see the black cherry is actually 19.5Mbtu.  So my post is a bit off but you get the point.  41 days instead of 43 days mentioned above, in theory.


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## chuck172 (Dec 29, 2010)

40 days on a cord is only  3 cu. ft. a day. WOW!, I wish I could do that.
I would burn more than that in my Lopi endeavor woodstove. which only has a 2.2cu.ft firebox capacity.


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## musclecar joe (Dec 29, 2010)

sweetheat said:
			
		

> pulse, with good insulation and storage a gasser should be using less then 4 cords a winter. Not a clue what an OWB would use, I know a lot. If I were living in my shop the season of burn would be longer so I'm guesstimating 4 cords usage. I used 2 cord last winter to keep it a toasty 64 degrees inside, excellent for working on timbers. IMHO the best place for a gasser is inside the home if it will fit. I have no smoke roll out issues because I load it and light it and leave it alone. Sweetheat



I understand you are heating a shop and you wouldn't want it any higher for working comfort. I keep my home at a living comfort of 70d. if i were to set it for a "toasty 64" I wouldn't even bother with wood. I would consume very little oil at that point (64d)that it would not be worth the work involved in cutting and stacking. I think our time is worth something. is it worth $1000 ? i think so. and lets face it, isn't it our objective to use wood to heat our homes comfortably and economically and not have the thermostat set back. with that in mind even at 64, I cant see how its possible to only burn 2-4 cord a year without storage and radiant floor heating. I have radiant baseboards which require me to keep my water temp above 165 and storage really doesn't do me much good because of it. hence....10 cord of wood a year. please note i hope my response is taken constructively i am not trying to be an ass....without spending another $5000 i just cant see it being possible under my set up. and that is what i am trying to fix/improve.

respectfully,

musclecar joe


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## pulse (Dec 29, 2010)

For a comparison I live in SW lower Michigan, close enogh to Lake Michigan we don't see the sun very often during the winter. Our outside temps are usually teens at night mid 20's during the day. My house is 2800 sq ft living space. My basement is not "heated" but stays around 62 with the radiant heat coming off the duct work, the hx from the furnace and the pex lines. I use a progamable thermost here are my settings, 1.weekends-7:00 am 73, 11:30 pm 70. 2.Monday-Friday 6:00 am 73, 9:00am 68, 4:30 pm 73, 11:30pm 70. My garage is 600 sq ft it stays 50ish unless I want to do something out there then I bump it to 65 (not that often). We are a family of three and the owb supplies all the dhw during the heating months which are November 1 thru mid April. Last season we used 8 cord, however last March was not cold.

I would love to only burn 4 cord if that is possible, but I am not ready to change my owb setup neither mentaly, or finacialy. I am just curious what others are seeing in real world conditions, and comparing systems.


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## charly (Dec 29, 2010)

musclecar joe said:
			
		

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 Joe, I had a OWB for 6 years, switched to a Paxo 60 gasification boiler , 1000 gallons of storage in my insulated shed with the boiler and another 600 gallons of storage in my basement. All radiant heat..house 2600 sq ft including basement, radiant heat in the basement slab too. Indirect hot water heater and radiant heated slab in 1500 sq ft garage, kept at 45 degrees. House kept at 70 degrees. I still burned an honest 10 cords plus of wood, which tested to 20% with a moisture meter. I would let my storage go down to 125 degrees from 180. Yippie no fire for 12 hours needed. But then it would take three fire boxes full of wood to get the refractory and storage all back up to 180 degrees. Fire box was 10 cu ft, and I filled that three times during the day.I think I wasted alot of wood burning the stove from a cold start again and trying to raise all that water up again. Had Logstor insulated pipe, only 70 feet to my house. It saved me about 2 cords over my OWB. The new guy who lives in my place now keeps the storage at a 10 degree differential, 180 degrees off and back on at 170. I think he'll use alot less wood. His first year with the boiler. The OWB was easier as to just toss in some wood and forget it. But not as clean burning . I split my wood for both units. Just my honest feed back. Go watch someone burn their gasification for a day and see for your self would be my recommendation, pick a cold day. It's a big investment.


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## musclecar joe (Dec 29, 2010)

xclimber said:
			
		

> musclecar joe said:
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thanks for the input.


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## charly (Dec 29, 2010)

musclecar joe said:
			
		

> xclimber said:
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 No problem, glad to tell you what it was like for me.


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## muncybob (Dec 29, 2010)

chuck172 said:
			
		

> What I'm having a hard time understanding is that unless everyone is just adding a few pc's of wood each time, how can anyone refill a gassifier with its 5cu. ft. or bigger firebox- 2 or three times a day, everyday during the heating season and still burn 4 or less cords/year.



...well, just as pointed out it really depends on what each of us calls a "refill". In my case when I refer to re-loading or re-filling I'm saying that I basically have no more than a good bed of coals and very little wood left just above my nozzle and I then put in what amounts to about 3 or 4 decent sized splits. This does not fill up the loading area(maybe just over 1/2) but it's about all I can put in with the smoke shield hanging down. So, I guess I burn about 10 to 12 splits per cold day of which are apprx. 16" to 18" long.
Also as pointed out, it really depends on your outdoor temps, wind, solar gain etc. besides how well your heating area is sealed. Our typical winter day here is probably highs in the 20's to low 30's and most nights in the teens with frequent single digits. We live in a fairly windy location(up on a hill). We have a lot of windows of which many face south.There are so many variables!!
 I said we burn around 4.5 cords per year but I say that with only 1 season under our belt...but it was a fairly typical winter and much of the wood last year was somewhat less than desirable. I'm hoping for even better results this year or at least the same if we get colder than average temps. I feel for anybody that goes through 10+ cords per year....that's a lot of work. I doubt I would have started wood burning if somebody told me that's how much we would use.


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## SnowTraveler (Dec 30, 2010)

Hi folks, long time lurker here, been absent a while.  To answer the OP's question, I burn three times a day, morning, late afternoon, and bedtime, full to half loads at full burn, weather dependent.  I time my boiler to shut down so that it does not idle much, using a time delay relay, timer setting is dependent on outside air temperatures.  I've pretty much got it down to a science.  I am burning 8 cord a year, heating mid November to early April, this is my fourth season with my Econoburn 150 and 800G pressurized storage.  I have a 3000 square foot home at 75 Deg F (wife is very cold blooded).  I also heat my work shop and DHW.   I ran the first season with the gasifier in the finished basement, but smoke issues forced me to build a boiler room on my garage, 200 feet away.   Overall I am very happy with the system and wood consumption for the benefit returned is satisfactory.   I do a thorough cleaning of the boiler once every 4 days.   I burn mostly seasoned wood, but will mix in damp wood with dry on a full throttle burn with no significant creosote issues in the turbulators.

Picture attached is my boiler room under construction, 500 gallon propane tank in the back, econoburn being positioned.  I also have a 300 gallon tank in the house basement.  I had major issues running without storage, storage made my life much, much better.


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## chuck172 (Dec 30, 2010)

SnowTraveler, I'll bet when all is said and done you have a very typical burning routine.


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## SnowTraveler (Dec 30, 2010)

Yes, I would say very typical of a well installed gasifier with comparable storage and loads.   I am sure that if I lowered my temperature setpoints to a more typical 70 Deg F for my zones, I might be able to save a cord a year, but my wood is "free" and the benefits of having a happy wife are numerous.


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## b33p3r (Dec 30, 2010)

New econo user so might not be much help. 3200 heated space. 1400 radiant. 1800 hot water baseboard(for now). 12 year old ranch well insulated. Boiler in insulated outbuilding 70' from house. No storage.   Been burning since 12/10 and used 1 cord of dry(untested) wood til today.  Heating house 2-3 * warmer than usual. LOVE the heat. I work swing shift so loading schedule is not normal. But figure loading schedule out day by day with stay at home Mom and working teenager. Once we all get used to usage by temperature I'm sure things will get even better. But for now I'm happy with boiler. Clean ashes once a week and have been cleaning/inspecting flue every two weeks. Will probably extend flue inspection/cleaning since all is burning clean.


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## chuck172 (Dec 30, 2010)

SnowTraveler, You have a 500 gallon and a 300 gallon tank for storage. Did you start out with just 500 and then add. The reason why I'm asking is I'm going to increase my storage from 500 and I'd like to know how much of a difference it will make.


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## SnowTraveler (Dec 30, 2010)

Chuck, I started with the 300 gallon pressure tank in the basement in a utility room next to the boiler.   I had teething problems with my installation due to having an oversized boiler for my well insulated home and no experience with gassifiers.  I received a lot of help from the regulars here that steered me toward storage and it helped immensely at the end of my first heating season.  I moved my boiler to a new boiler room addition on my garage during the summer of 2008 and added a 500G former propane tank as additional storage, with the option to add another.  I have had terrific success with 800G total, so I stopped there.   I can charge my system to 190 Deg and heat the house for 12 hours on storage.  I do have ambient heat loss in the boiler room and basement, but those are both "heated" areas anyway.  I did take great pains to limit heat loss from the 500G tank and the underground piping though.   I think your bumping to 1000 will work well, but don't go any higher than that with your unit.  How long can you heat on storage now??


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## chuck172 (Dec 30, 2010)

My 500 gallons of storage goes fast. Depending on the temps. probably no more than about 4 to 6 hrs.
Storage is only convenience, so I'm putting up with the limited storage for now. Someday, I might add another 500 gal. tank.


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## TimfromPittsburgh (Dec 30, 2010)

Interesting thread. Ours is a 2500 sq ft ranch with 50% radiant floor and 50% slant fin baseboard radiators. The living space is fairly well insulated. Our heating system is a Tarm 502 boiler and no storage. Our average consumption during a 6 month heating season is 12 cords of wood and 200 gallon of oil. Prior to installing the wood boiler our annual oil consumption was 2000 gallons. We keep the living space at 68 degrees during hours we are up and cut back to 65 degrees during the night. 

The boiler is in the basement. Once per day I bring in wood from outdoors and fill a wood stacker by the boiler. About every four hours somebody goes down to feed the fire. The last feeding is usually around midnight. By 7:00 AM the fire is down to a thin bed of coals, but usually enough to start the next load. I burn mostly white oak that has been on the ground for 10 years or longer. I suspect that the wood has lost some of its heat capacity, but there is lots of it and it is readily accessible so I burn it. Our basement is not insulated at all and there are are lots of air leaks. I have purposely left the hot water piping in the basement uninsulated in order to supply some heat to the basement. I suspect I am loosing a good bit of heat in the basement.

This summer I will add 600 gallon of unpressurized storage, add domestic hot water heating and convert more of the living space to radiant floor. Our boiler idles quite a bit and I am hoping that adding storage will improve efficiency a bit.


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## Tennman (Dec 31, 2010)

Been following this interesting post for several days. I think one of the most interesting aspects is the definition of "filling". This year's operations are totally different from our first year hindered by poorly seasoned wood and heating almost 200' of dirt between our barn and the house. So now easily keeping our home at a confortable 68 for the downstairs floor. Upstairs ends up to be whatever. BTW, we have 2 AZELs, one on the tees joining the PEX at the boiler in the barn and on the HX in the house. Between blower runs we are consistently seeing a 2-3 deg temp loss for about a 400'-440' complete boiler out to boiler in loop. This is after temp stabilization between blower cycles. See the underground sticky. I'm amazed.

Now, from the top of the nozzle to the bottom of the upper door opening on our BioMass is about 10", door opening about 12" and the domed top of the chamber about 8-10" above the top of the door opening. Or said another way the upper chamber is about 30-32" tall with the top of the door about 8" down from the top of the chamber.

Last year and for much of this heating season filling for me was stacking wood from the coal bed to as close to the top of the chamber as possible. Had continual issues with bridging which required someone shuffling/shaking the wood often to keep gassing going. recently started using much smaller loads to avoid the bridging which resulted in (at least to me) a large empty volume in the upper chamber. Temps have recently warmed, so hard to judge burn times, but the smaller loads require less attention. I would guess our blower inlets are about mid-way between the nozzle opening and the bottom of the door opening. Learning bridging is far less an issue with dry wood, but before smaller loads in the morning had the FUEL lite on with still half the wood remaining often. Can overfilling reduce efficiency and lead to using more wood? Stee's comment on what he calls "filling" and my recent effort to reduce bridging really has me wondering. I know for me part of my problem is that I need to make smaller splits also. (BTW read the really interesting inputs in my post titled "Splitting.. fixed or moving wedge" in the Gear section. Very interesting comments on splitters).

So back to the topic, I can't comment much on useage particularly living in a climate with the winter mean being the low 40's. So good thread pulse, musclecar feel your pain but seems like somethings really sucking your efficiency. That is an enormous volume of fuel. Being much further south and our ave temps, my consumption is not relevent or useful for you, but I'd feel like you if I had to process/handle that much wood. Someone can do the math but I guess the total energy content of that volume of wood would be 3-4 times over your heating demand. You probably need a new thread to assist in debugging what's going on with your system. My 2 cents here relates to what is "filling". First I've read about how different folks fill. THAT may require a new topic. Happy and Warm New Year to all!!


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## chuck172 (Dec 31, 2010)

To cut back on firewood amounts I'm burning a load in the Tarm in the morning, then using the woodstove in the evening. The morning burn heats the domestic h/w.  and gets me through most of the day.


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## pulse (Dec 31, 2010)

Well I can honestly say I am a little suprised in the result of this thread. As I said in the begining I have been lurking in the shadows of this forum for a while, but have been reluctant to post. I have felt almost embarrised to own a owb by some of the members here. There is no doubt a gassification boiler is more efficient by design than what I use, but I am not sure the spread of difference is as much as I once thought. As far as I am concerened, it really doesn't matter what the setup is as long as the user is responsible, doesn't offend anyone, and happy with the results. I think if more owb owners sized there "boiler" to their needs, burned SEASONED wood, and used GOOD underground pipe (logstor) they would not have the reputation they do. I also take my hat off to anyone who can honestly heat (72*) a large house (>2500 sq ft)in a cold climate with only 4 cord of wood. That is absolutly amazing! So anyway thankyou for all the replys, and everyones honesty, and I hope everyone has a great new year!


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## bigburner (Jan 1, 2011)

pulse - I couldn't agree more - seams to be two camps here!  There are several OWB in my square mile and if you drive by you can tell when they are idle - there is some smoke. I have seen the giant cloud of smoke that people refer to here [looks like they are burning leaves] but that isn't the case around my house. If storage was added to these also, it would even be better. [less smoke] One person I know mixes coal with his wood and has a tall chimney, no problems there. the quality of the units was the real low spot for me. everyone was building there own version and they would fail in a short time. I won't argue that they aren't a little thirsty. But if the low% moisture wood that the gasers require was used in all of them they could be under sizer for the load, most people don't live and breath this wood burning stuff and just want to save a little money. I have seen some investment numbers verse the sq ft of houses be heated that didn't make sense to me, like 10 dollars a square foot. Got-a just want to do it. Mine is a home build up draft gasier, and it will eat up the wood. I am heat1ing about 13,000 sq ft at different temps. My routine is - load it in the morning and load it at night. 10 minutes each time. if it's real cool or I am just around during the day I might add a load in between. I don't have my boiler or storage insulated and that should happen this month and that should keep me to twice a day. This has been a project & investment that I have loved and hated, it been over three years [1-year to build] and third heading season. made a few mistakes, but overall love being able heat my world by something that I put together. It's more then a day in a life off!! It's the life style off!!  My biggest problem is I can't quite putting money in to this thing, it works fine -- just keep adding bling


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## Rory (Jan 2, 2011)

This is a very informative thread.  I'm surprised by the ash regimes, I learned my technique from someone else and it has worked fine, so here's what I do -  I start by removing the ashes from the bottom of the furnace and the nozzle, which are usually all burned up.  I then push the ashes from the bottom of the firebox, which usually contain "clinkers", to the front of the gasification chamber.  The next fire will burn these to a fine ash.  I then use newspapers and 4 pieces of kindling, a few small split pieces and light it with the firebox door open a crack.  After 10 minutes or so, I'll add some more wood (filling it if I'm leaving for work or whatever) and close the bypass damper.  If I'm around during the burn I'll check on it once in a while, as it's not unusual to find some minor bridging inhibiting an optimum burn.   I'm on my third winter heating a 2500 sq foot house to around 70 most of the time, and providing 100% of my DHW.  In the summer, I have about 1 fire a week to charge my 670 gallons of unpressurized storage, and the fires increase in frequency as the weather cools until I'm having 2  a day - morning and night - during the coldest days/months of the year.  I used to use 800 - 1,000 gallons of oil along with a little wood, and now I'm using 5 - 6 cords of wood with too little oil to mention.  I almost never get up during the night to feed it (I might if if gets -20F), and my wife has never touched it, it goes untended while I'm at work.

I'm completely satisfied with my Tarm Solo 30, but you do invest extra effort into splitting the wood small in comparison to a conventional woodstove or some other furnaces.  I only clean the tubes a few times a year, and the chimney never needs cleaning.


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## ihookem (Jan 2, 2011)

One thing I know for sure. If I turn the heat to 72* my furnace runs a whole lot more than if I keep it at 68* I will bet I use 30% more wood @ 72*. Another thing I noticed is many keep their temps @ 180. I found I use a lot less wood @ 165. 165* is enough heat to maintain 70 * in th ehouse no matter how cold outside. I guess If I keep temps @ 180-190 like some do and then keep 75* like post # 46 I would use 7 cords instead of 3.5. This most likely is why some burn 8 cord, some burn 4. I burned 3 1/3 cord last year and a bunch was popple and box elder. It was a fairly warm winter though.


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## hedge wood (Jan 2, 2011)

ihookem said:
			
		

> One thing I know for sure. If I turn the heat to 72* my furnace runs a whole lot more than if I keep it at 68* I will bet I use 30% more wood @ 72*. Another thing I noticed is many keep their temps @ 180. I found I use a lot less wood @ 165. 165* is enough heat to maintain 70 * in th ehouse no matter how cold outside. I guess If I keep temps @ 180-190 like some do and then keep 75* like post # 46 I would use 7 cords instead of 3.5. This most likely is why some burn 8 cord, some burn 4. I burned 3 1/3 cord last year and a bunch was popple and box elder. It was a fairly warm winter though.


Last heating season was the first for my Garn we heat a 1912 farm house three story 4000 sq ft newer windows and good insulation DHW and heat slab heat in a 20ft by 60ft 16ft ceiling and keep it at 45degrees all the time. we heated from Oct to easter last year as I got hurt easter and couldn't load the  Garn any more. We kept the house at 75 degrees all the time and I run the Garn up to 210 regularly. I burned a true 10 cord of hedge last winter but we had a very cold winter we had not seen in years. I think I will be at closer to 8 cord this year or less it has been a warmer winter so far. I if was doing it again I wouldn't spend the big money on a gaser.There are only two house in the mile I live in so the smoke is a no issue I would build my own burner add storage down from it. I have another 2000 gallon stainless storage tank on the trailer in the shed for next year so we can be gone longer between burn. I won't mind burning less wood but I don't like being cold that is why I went back to burning wood. I have a whole pasture of wood that needs to be cut.


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## ihookem (Jan 3, 2011)

I hear ya. My wife is cold all day at 71* I just say a warm wife is only a few logs away. Want to burn less wood? Insulate, insulate, insulate.


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## rwh442 (Jan 3, 2011)

Typical routine for my conventional non-gasser boiler:

Load up at 5:45 before going to work.

Load up at 4:30-5:00 typical when get home from work.

Adjust last load accordingly at 10:30 -11:00 before bed.

Boiler in insulated three car detached 1550 sq ft garage 200' away from house.

House is 2050 sq ft ranch set at 71 deg F 24/7.  Water to air HX in propane furnace plenum.

Typical wood usage has been around 7.5 - 8 cords per year.

Detached garage minimum temperature has been around 58 degrees with help from radiant heat from the boiler alone.  Wood consumption would be reduced drastically if the boiler was in the house basement.

However - working in the detached garage in mid January wearing shorts and a t-shirt - priceless.


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## NewBoiler (Jan 5, 2011)

I have a new Kerr Highlander indoor boiler installed and have cast iron rads through my house (2 years old).  My house is three floors (including basement where boiler resides) and two car garage totaling about 3000 sq/ft of heated space (usually don't heat the garage).  The firebox is about 8 sq/ft and I load it around 6:00AM, again at 3:00PM and then again at 11:00PM.  The temp on the main floor is set at 77 and the top floor is at 73- nice and toasty.  The basement thermostat isn't even on, heated simply from the radiant heat from the boiler- usually around 80 believe it or not.

So far this year, burning since mid October, non-stop, only lit twice, I figured I have burnt about 5 cord. By the end of the season I will probably burn 10-11 cord.

Whats nice, I have only burnt maybe 50 litres of oil since the summer- nice.


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## pulse (Jan 5, 2011)

WOW! That is a warm house!


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## 101x81 (Jan 5, 2011)

i love the slippers, but what is the thing between


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