# Zero turn won't start



## jlightning (Apr 25, 2016)

I put a new battery in my scag tiger cub about a week ago and a half ago and it won't start now unless I jump it w/ my atv.  The guys at my local shop talked me into a battery w/ 300 cca when the old battery had 350 cca.  Does 50cca make all the difference?  When I first put it in it could get the mower going on its own but as soon as it sat for a few days it would need the jump.  Also I hooked it up to a tender and it started up after it was fully charged.  I'm torn as to what I should do....buy a 350 cca battery to test my theory of the underpowered battery or just have the shop take a look at it to see if the starter or stater need to be replaced.


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## Allagash350 (Apr 25, 2016)

jlightning said:


> I put a new battery in my scag tiger cub about a week ago and a half ago and it won't start now unless I jump it w/ my atv.  The guys at my local shop talked me into a battery w/ 300 cca when the old battery had 350 cca.  Does 50cca make all the difference?  When I first put it in it could get the mower going on its own but as soon as it sat for a few days it would need the jump.  Also I hooked it up to a tender and it started up after it was fully charged.  I'm torn as to what I should do....buy a 350 cca battery to test my theory of the underpowered battery or just have the shop take a look at it to see if the starter or stater need to be replaced.



What's it doing when you try to crank it? Is it trying to turn over or just clicking? 
What weight oil are you running? 
Terminals clean? If not wire brush them and put a little fluid film on them. 
What is the engine and hp? 
Can't answer if 300cca is enough without a little more info. 
Also have the battery tested. It should be holding a charge if it is brand new. 
My gut tells me 300 is more than enough and it is a battery issue. 
Sorry for the long post


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## jlightning (Apr 25, 2016)

Allagash350 said:


> What's it doing when you try to crank it? Is it trying to turn over or just clicking?
> What weight oil are you running?  Sae30
> Terminals clean? If not wire brush them and put a little fluid film on them.  The terminals are clean but I may try to reconnect them
> What is the engine and hp?  It a brigs and stratton 26hp engine
> ...


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## jlightning (Apr 25, 2016)

Also it will click when I try to start it if it isn't being jumped or if the battery is coming off a full charge


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## Jon1270 (Apr 25, 2016)

You say it seems to lose charge over a few days if it's parked without being connected to a charger.  Are you sure of that?  Could it be that the battery was already low when you parked it?  

It's very unlikely that the 50CCA difference is the problem.  I'd say that either there's a short that gradually drains the battery when the mower is sitting unused or, more likely, something is wrong with the charging system.  I've never worked on one of these, but the electrical system has to be dead simple.  Look over all the wires, big and small, making sure that there's no broken insulation or loose or corroded connections.


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## blades (Apr 25, 2016)

Ya have a short and/ or not charging when running. Always possible to get a bad new battery- that's a long shot though. Could be a bad start/run switch.
Do you have a volt /ohm meter and the ability to use one?  With all the safety switches on these things it is a royal pain to diagnose in person let alone virtually over the net.


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## Jon1270 (Apr 25, 2016)

blades said:


> Do you have a volt /ohm meter and the ability to use one? With all the safety switches on these things it is a royal pain to diagnose in person let alone virtually over the net.



A meter would certainly be handy, but a bad safety switch wouldn't cause this kind of problem.  That said, not only have I never worked on one of these, I'm not sure I'd even recognize one if it bit me.  I have rewired a couple of motorcycles though, so I'm not just making stuff up.  I think the short/charging system problems are vastly more likely.


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## Jags (Apr 25, 2016)

Did this machine have any history of draining (or possibly not charging) prior to this new battery?  If not, I think you may have identified the problem.  Replace the battery.

If a battery is fully charged (with a charger) you should be able to run that machine for several mowings before it needs a recharge.  If it is dead (starter clicks when engaged) after a couple of days, the battery is not holding a charge or is being drained.  With no prior history, go to the most obvious - the new component (battery).


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## jlightning (Apr 25, 2016)

The old battery was the original from 2008 so it was due for a replacement and was giving me trouble starting by the end of last year's cutting season.  I don't have a meter or know how to use one so that's not a possibility for finding out what the problem is.  I think I'll try to reconnect the battery and see what happens along w/ che king the wires.  If that doesn't work I'll take the battery to the shop and have them test it


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## greg13 (Apr 25, 2016)

Check the connections at the battery first.
If you have a test light, with everything off disconnect one of the cables from the battery. Put the light in line, the light should not light if it does there is a draw.


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## jlightning (Apr 25, 2016)

I took the battery to my local shop and the battery is fine so either I have a bad connection or a short on the frame somewhere.  I guess I should buy a simple electric tester.  Greg 13 the guy at the shop said you could find a short by disconnecting the ground wire then put a tester on the negative and frame and check the meeter?  Does that sound rite?


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## claydogg84 (Apr 25, 2016)

Grab a cheap multi meter from Harbor Frieght. Set it on DC Volts. Start the mower with the meter hooked up to the battery. If the voltage doesn't rise, the charging system isn't working. If it is in fact charging, you likely have a wiring issue which shouldn't be hard to find.


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## Sprinter (Apr 25, 2016)

My guess is that it's not getting charged.  Or possibly the battery terminal connections are poor.  Remove them and clean everything up.

But Like claydogg84 suggested, you need to get a meter to track down a problem like this.  You can tell a lot just by putting the meter on the battery.  With no load, a good fully charged battery should read about 12.7 volts.  Then it will dip while being cranked, then when it starts, it should go up above 13.5 volts or so while it's charging. Make sure the rpms are high enough to charge. If it doesn't go up to about that after starting, it's probably the alternator or some other charging component.  BTW, a bad alternator can actually drain the battery.

But those are the only checks I'd recommend doing yourself if you are not comfortable with it.  Much more than that, you really should get help.

When you do get this fixed, I''d install a new battery anyway.  It's old enough and has gone through enough lately.

Another thing you can do is put the meter first on the battery terminals themselves while cranking and note the reading.  Then do it with the meter on the wire connection on the outside of the battery terminal.  If the battery terminal voltage doesn't change much, but the connector voltage goes way down, it's the battery connection.  It happens a lot with cars.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 25, 2016)

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/general-lawn-garden/209364-scag-wildcat-charging-issue.html
Voltage reg grounds through mounting bolts and one was loose ...

Another site mentioned to check the fuses!


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## Sprinter (Apr 25, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/general-lawn-garden/209364-scag-wildcat-charging-issue.html
> Voltage reg grounds through mounting bolts and one was loose ...


Good one...


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## Lake Girl (Apr 25, 2016)

Both those mentions cured the problem in those instances.  Seemed like the easiest things to rule out


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## jlightning (Apr 26, 2016)

The guy at the shop said to check the fuses also.  I will check all of the wires & connections when I get home along w/ the fuses. I figure I will put the battery in and connect the positive but keep the negative off of the battery until I'm ready to use it.  I figure if there is a drain on the battery this will prove that.  If it starts up after a couple of days I have a short if not I'm back to the drawing board


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## johneh (Apr 26, 2016)

jlightning said:


> Greg 13 the guy at the shop said you could find a short by disconnecting the ground wire then put a tester on the negative and frame and check the meeter? Does that sound rite?


He is right but with this method no special tools needed  
Use an old style  head light connect 1 0f the prongs of the light ( short length 16 18 gauge
wire will work )and the other end to the neg. side of battery . The opposite prong connect 
to the battery ground wire  If the light glows you have a short of a power wire .  To run down
the exact source disconnect one powered item at a time till light goes out . When the light goes
out you have found the bad circuit repair as necessary.
I know I made this as clear as mud !


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## jlightning (Apr 26, 2016)

Ok so I fully charged the battery and reconnected it in the mower and at first it wouldn't start.  After holding the key on for 10 seconds all of a sudden it would start but only half the times it tried to start it and every time I needed to hold the key on for a couple of seconds before it would start.  I then tried to jump it and that didn't work any better.  I'm at a loss with this one.  Could the ignition be bad due to the delayed starts?


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## Jon1270 (Apr 26, 2016)

During those seconds when you're holding the key on and waiting, does it make any sounds as if it's trying to start, i.e. clicking  or the humming strain of an electric motor?  Or is it dead silent for a while and then suddenly goes through what sounds like a normal startup?


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## greg13 (Apr 26, 2016)

jlightning said:


> Ok so I fully charged the battery and reconnected it in the mower and at first it wouldn't start.  After holding the key on for 10 seconds all of a sudden it would start but only half the times it tried to start it and every time I needed to hold the key on for a couple of seconds before it would start.  I then tried to jump it and that didn't work any better.  I'm at a loss with this one.  Could the ignition be bad due to the delayed starts?



It may be tough to do, but try going to the battery cable terminal on the starter with the jumper cable and see if it acts right. If there is corrosion in the battery cable between the battery & starter or between the cable & wire terminals it will act like that. I had to replace the terminals in my wife's zero turn last weekend for the same problem. since it runs, the ignition side is fine.The problem is in the cranking circuit, that is the battery (you tested by charging & jumping) battery cables (both hot & ground), starter & starter solenoid and key switch. Based on what you have said, my money would be on the cables and or connections.


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## TreePointer (Apr 26, 2016)

greg13 said:


> It may be tough to do, but try going to the battery cable terminal on the starter with the jumper cable and see if it acts right. If there is corrosion in the battery cable between the battery & starter or between the cable & wire terminals it will act like that. I had to replace the terminals in my wife's zero turn last weekend for the same problem. since it runs, the ignition side is fine.The problem is in the cranking circuit, that is the battery (you tested by charging & jumping) battery cables (both hot & ground), starter & starter solenoid and key switch. Based on what you have said, my money would be on the cables and or connections.



That was my problem once with the JD tractor in my avatar.  The issue is that not all hot (red) and ground (black) cables are of the same quality, and some are more prone to internal corrosion than others (not fully sealed).  I did that same trick by connecting a jumper cable to the POSITIVE battery terminal and the other end to the starter bolt where the red cable attaches to the starter.  It started easily with the jumper cable.  I subsequently replaced the red cable--problem solved.


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## Allagash350 (Apr 26, 2016)

Well I guess by now you've figured out you've got enough cca for your motor. My cheetah with 34 efi is 350 cca if it makes you feel better.
Sounds like it could be a faulty ignition switch. 
Have you checked all of the safety points designed to kill engine?
I remember on my old exmark the pto switch was going and half the time I couldn't start it because it was showing the pto still engaged.
It wouldn't do anything then all of a sudden it would turn over.


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## Sprinter (Apr 27, 2016)

The symptoms are a bit confusing, but my ZTR had similar symptoms and it turned out to be the solenoid.  They can develop shorts in the windings, or the contacts can be intermittent.


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## jlightning (Apr 27, 2016)

When I turn the key there is dead silence for a few seconds then all of a sudden the engine comes to life.  I checked the seat and brake lever safety switches which seem to be fine.  I cleaned them up a bit but I can't be sure they work properly.  Is there a way to bypass them to check if they are the issue?  I checked the wires again and don't see anything amiss.  There isn't a spot of corosion on the positive or negative connectors.  I also checked the fuses and they look great.  How does a bad starter act when trying to start an engine?  I think it's down to a bad wire, starter, or ignition switch.  I guess I'll try to figure out how to jump to the starter and go from there to rule the starter out as the issue


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## Jags (Apr 27, 2016)

jlightning said:


> I think it's down to a bad wire, starter, or ignition switch.


Don't overlook the starter solenoid as said above.  It is very much part of the same circuit under suspicion.


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## TreePointer (Apr 27, 2016)

You can have corrosion or even broken strands of wire in the battery cables underneath the insulation and/or inside the strands.  This is difficult to notice but still can reduce the available current for starting.

TEST BATTERY CABLES:

1. Replace battery ground cable with known good cable. Attempt to start.  No start? Go to step 2.
2. Leave that known good cable on the ground side, and now replace hot cable with a second known good cable that runs from battery to starter bolt.

Note that new battery cables aren't necessary for this test.  A good set of jumper cables from your car should work.


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## Mike M. (Apr 27, 2016)

Charge the battery, clean all connections with a wire brush, just replace the starter relay those are cheap.

I had an issue like this on a machine this winter. Ended up one of the magnets in the starter let loose and was causing intermittent issues. 

Sent from my SCH-I545L using Tapatalk


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## jlightning (Apr 27, 2016)

TreePointer said:


> You can have corrosion or even broken strands of wire in the battery cables underneath the insulation and/or inside the strands.  This is diflt to notice but still can reduce the available current for starting.
> 
> TEST BATTERY CABLES:
> 
> ...



Thanks Treepointer, I'll give this a try tomorrow morning.  I did just purchase a digital multimeter so is there a way I can test the wire first?


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## TreePointer (Apr 28, 2016)

jlightning said:


> Thanks Treepointer, I'll give this a try tomorrow morning.  I did just purchase a digital multimeter so is there a way I can test the wire first?



Yes, you can test voltage drop with a multimeter.  You might need longer test leads or an extension with gator clamps on the end.  You also might need a helper to crank the engine while you read the multimeter display.

1. Test DC voltage by measuring from the POS battery terminal to the bolt where POS cable attaches to starter.  Crank engine and read display.  It should only read a fraction of a volt, say 0.2V.  (BTW, when you aren't cranking, there should be 0.00V across that cable.)

2. Test DC voltage by measuring from the NEG battery terminal to where the NEG cable attaches to grounding bolt.  Crank engine and read display.  Again, there should be very little voltage drop.  

All this assumes a good battery, clean conductive surfaces, and properly tightened connections.


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## jlightning (Apr 28, 2016)

Update....I check the battery before I started and was at 12.5v.  I the disconnected the negative at the battery and put the negative jumper cable from battery to the post past the solonoid.  I tried to start it but nothing...just a click.  I then disconnect the positive cable and put on the positive jumper to the post past the solonoid and then to the battery and it started cranking right away but it sounded like a weak crank and never actually turned over.  I then disconnect the jumper cables and teated the battery again and am at 12.3v so I took the battery out and have it on the tender again.  So does this mean I either have a bad cable or solonoid?


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## jlightning (Apr 28, 2016)

I also ruled out the starter as being the problem...correct?


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## Jags (Apr 28, 2016)

Starters can become "weak".  Too bad you didn't have a method to measure amperage (which your small meter WILL NOT DO at the level required).

Note: 12.3V is the signs of a weak battery. Your meter may have the ability to measure small amperage draws to try and isolate if you have some type of draw on your battery causing it to bleed voltage.


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## sportbikerider78 (Apr 28, 2016)

One easy way to test to see if you have a bad charging system is this.

Get it running however you need to.
Disconnect the battery terminals.

If the engine sputters and dies...you have a charging system issue.  If it keeps running and does not die, its the battery. 

With the engine running above half throttle, you should be at almost full charge from the charging system.  This should be >12V  Maybe even as high as 13.5V across the battery terminals.

As with any troubleshooting this can be dynamic.  A bad charging system can fry a good battery in a short period of time.  If your battery is slowly losing charge overnight (not hooked up to anything), you have an issue with the battery.


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## TreePointer (Apr 28, 2016)

Video showing solenoid test:

(Substitute your 12V battery for the homemade DC power supply in the video.)


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## jlightning (Apr 28, 2016)

How do I know for sure if one of the wires are bad?


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## claydogg84 (Apr 28, 2016)

jlightning said:


> How do I know for sure if one of the wires are bad?



You can test the wires with your new meter. Set it on Ohms and place a lead on each end of the wire (the wire will need to be disconnected). A good wire should read close to zero, while a wire with high resistance will read higher. You should see the difference immediately if you find a bad wire.


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## jlightning (Apr 29, 2016)

The saga continues........I checked the solenoid and found that I have no power coming from the ignition switch  to the solenoid so I checked the seat switch, lever switches, and brake switch and they all are working perfectly.  I then decided what the hell and jumped the solenoid and it fired right up.  I think this This means that I either have a bad ground somewhere or the ignition switch or possibly the pto switch is bad?  I also checked the battery while running and it's at 14+v so the stater is also fine


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## jlightning (Apr 29, 2016)

The saga continues........I checked the solenoid and found that I have no power coming from the ignition switch  to the solenoid so I checked the seat switch, lever switches, and brake switch and they all are working perfectly.  I then decided what the hell and jumped the solenoid and it fired right up.  I think this This means that I either have a bad ground somewhere or the ignition switch or possibly the pto switch is bad?  I also checked the battery while running and it's at 14+v so the stater is also fine


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## Jags (Apr 29, 2016)

Just a word of warning - it can get a little confusing when trying to test circuits that have safety switches involved.  Do yourself a favor and put a butt in that seat and make sure that all the proper startup sequence is be followed (PTO off, break pedal depressed, etc) WHILE you test the solenoid, or ignition switch wires.


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## sportbikerider78 (Apr 29, 2016)

claydogg84 said:


> You can test the wires with your new meter. Set it on Ohms and place a lead on each end of the wire (the wire will need to be disconnected). A good wire should read close to zero, while a wire with high resistance will read higher. You should see the difference immediately if you find a bad wire.


Also known as testing for "continuity".  A good meter will also give you a beep...indicating a positive test.  



Unless I saw corrosion on a terminal, I wouldn't even check resistance.


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## sportbikerider78 (Apr 29, 2016)

jlightning said:


> The saga continues........I checked the solenoid and found that I have no power coming from the ignition switch  to the solenoid so I checked the seat switch, lever switches, and brake switch and they all are working perfectly.  I then decided what the hell and jumped the solenoid and it fired right up.  I think this This means that I either have a bad ground somewhere or the ignition switch or possibly the pto switch is bad?  I also checked the battery while running and it's at 14+v so the stater is also fine



Did you check the battery voltage while it is running yet?


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## greg13 (Apr 29, 2016)

Welcome to troubleshooting 101. You are doing the exact same things we pros do, you eliminate the possibilities one by one. Once you find what is NOT wrong, you will find what IS wrong.


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## jlightning (Apr 30, 2016)

Sportbikerider78 I did check the voltage while running and it was around 14v so the stater/alternator is working fine.  I figure tomorrow I will try to get the ignition out and test it along w/ fining the other end of the wire that goes to the solenoid and check it for continuity and while I'm at it I will check the pto safety.  If they  all check out fine I will be at a loss.  Is there a way you can test a wire other then at the ends w/ the exposed wire connection?  I ran across a needle test on the internet and figured I may give it a try on the issue wire.


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## jlightning (May 1, 2016)

Ok I'm officially stumped.  I checked the battery voltage this morning and am at 12.7v which from my understanding is fine.  I then checked the pto for continuity and it checked out fine.  Next I checked the black wire running from the ignition to the solenoid and it's continuity checked out fine.  I then move to the switch itself and checked it following a vid on youtube and it checked out fine.  What next?


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## johneh (May 1, 2016)

It almost sounds like there is a dead spot in the starter armature
Unless you know a mechanic that has a lot of years under there belt
and some antique equipment its hard to test  to tell for sure. A
mechanic with years of experience can tell by listening to
the starter.  Don't matter any way they do not overhaul
them any more just a throw away part  and pay big bucks
for new


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## jlightning (May 1, 2016)

VICTORY!  I went back at it and started to wiggle the wires coming off the safety switches on the arms and brake lever and it ended up being a bad connection from the brake switch.  I'll stop by my local shop and get a new wire connection.  Thanks everyone for all the help!


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## TreePointer (May 1, 2016)

That's pretty much how it goes when tracking down electrical issues.  Check the likely suspects first and methodically keep testing (sometimes retesting) until you find it.  It's not my favorite thing to do, but it gets easier with experience, and patience is rewarded.  Good job!


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## sportbikerider78 (May 2, 2016)

Good stuff.  More importantly, you learned something.


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## jetsam (May 3, 2016)

Woop, coming in late here...

I find that when an electrical problem gets frustrating, a pencil can really help.

Trace all the wires back and draw a circuit diagram for whatever doesn't work. This will usually lead to several 'Ohhhh' moments as you are forced to figure out how the system is connected. When you are done, you can often just fix the problem; if not, you have a nice diagram of what bits need to be tested.

With the diagram, you can narrow down the problem quickly using the half-split method. Test the circuit in the middle somewhere- if it's good, you may have an issue between there and ground; if it's bad, you may have an issue between there and the power source.  Now you can split the remaining half again, and so forth.

As you learned on this one, real-world problems are often intermittent ones which make troubleshooting more frustrating- but if you get in there with a meter, you will get it figured out. 

 With simple systems like vehicular wiring, I personally tend to just jump straight to the likely culprits before I undertake a systemic approach- but let me tell you, the problem isn't always coming from the most likely source!


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