# Firebox needs rebuilding... maybe time for an insert?



## sixminus1 (Jan 11, 2008)

Ever have a day where you feel like your whole house is falling apart?

As I was cleaning out the fireplace this morning, I noticed some loose mortar between some of the bottom bricks in the firebox.  I started picking it out, with the intention of pointing up the bricks, and to my horror, the mortar between the bricks just started disintegrating.  I simply touched the mortar with my fingers, and one by one, the bricks of the firebox came loose, and eventually dislodged.  This fireplace has served me reliably for nearly 7 years, and I'm kind of freaked out that I've burned so many fires, yet it came apart so easily.

Now I'm in a situation where the firebox needs to be completely rebuilt.  The bricks themselves are in pretty good shape (only one is cracked).  Seems that the mortar just crumbled.  This doesn't surprise me, as my house is about 50 years old, it was originally built to be a vacation bungalow, so many things were done cheap, and it wasn't very well maintained before I bought it in 2001.

My question is, would this be the right time to bite the bullet and get an insert?  My guess is that any masonry contractor is going to want over $1000 to fix this.  Why not just have the insert installed along with it?

Anyone out there have any recent prices for installation of an insert?  I don't need anything fancy -- I figure that any unit will throw more heat than my fireplace did without it.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

--Joe


----------



## derwood (Jan 11, 2008)

The firebox needs to be fixed before an insert goes in.


----------



## begreen (Jan 11, 2008)

It sure sounds like it's time for a full, insulated liner and an insert. If this were my house, I wouldn't burn another stick in there. Go for the insert + liner. You'll save a lot of fuel and heat plus gain a very large measure of safety in the process. 

Repointing is just going to get the surface joints. A fireplace is built up of multiple layers of brick with firebrick on the final firebox interior. If the mortar is crumbly, how is the mortar between the bricks that can't be repointed.


----------



## High_Iron (Jan 11, 2008)

I am no expert, but couldn't you just by some hi temp grout and just re grout it yourself?

Also, an insert installed will run between 3 and 5 thousand. depending on the bling you want.

good luck


----------



## sixminus1 (Jan 11, 2008)

Thanks for the replies.

I'll definitely have the firebox put back together properly.  I can't stand when things around here are broken.

As for the insert, if it's going to increase efficiency, safety, and asthetics, I'm going for it.

I've seen some simple and affordable inserts while browsing around today.

Any suggestions for a floor-level hearth that's 33Wx25Hx25D? (Rear wall of firebox is 28Wx25H)


----------



## begreen (Jan 11, 2008)

How much heat is desired, length of burn and how it is burned (occasionally or all the time) will narrow down the field. Jotul and Pacific Energy make good, popular models. I'd start with looking at a Jotul C450.


----------



## sixminus1 (Jan 12, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> How much heat is desired, length of burn and how it is burned (occasionally or all the time) will narrow down the field. Jotul and Pacific Energy make good, popular models. I'd start with looking at a Jotul C450.



My house is 800 sq ft, so a small insert is perfect.

By "length of burn", do you mean time between between reloading, or low long the fire should burn _in total_?

I was using the fireplace evenings/nights on the weekends, with plans to burn more frequently to try to save some cash on heating.  I would like to get the same if not more use out of an insert.

Thanks for pointing me to Jotul. I really like the looks of the C350 Winterport.  Flush-mount is perfect, and my living room will satisfy the clearance requirements.

A mason is coming out tomorrow to look at the firebox.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the repair won't be too expensive, as I'd now like to put money into getting the insert.


----------



## begreen (Jan 12, 2008)

Good question, burn time is somewhat of a gray area. I think of it as load to burnt down coals. A small stove will have a shorter burn time because it has a smaller capacity. However, in this case, I think it's good to stick with the smaller insert. 850 sq ft is not a lot to heat. It's a good looking stove. 

Do you know if you have a clay tile liner in the chimney? Is this an exterior or interior wall fireplace?


----------



## sixminus1 (Jan 12, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Do you know if you have a clay tile liner in the chimney? Is this an exterior or interior wall fireplace?




I have a clay liner in the chimney (rectangular... 8x12?).  It's an exterior-wall fireplace.  The chimney is about 15' tall, from the hearth to the cap.  Not very tall, but I believe it's within the height requirements for the smaller inserts.  The fireplace never had a problem with draw, but even so, I'm going for the full top-to-bottom liner just to be safe.


----------



## sixminus1 (Jan 12, 2008)

Update:

Good estimate from the mason.  Firebox repair will cost $400.  He'll fix the firebox, clean it all out, install a full liner, new damper and cap, and if I buy an insert he'll install it... for $1800.  This was a pleasant surprise -- another mason I called quoted me $1500 for the firebox alone.

Fireplace dealer in my area is ordering me a Jotul C350 Winterport.  Should be in by the end of the month.  Total, with tax is $2300.  I probably could have gotten this a bit cheaper somewhere else, but the dealer is great.  No hassles, knowledgeable people, and great attitude (the sales guy was on the phone with me for 20 minutes answering questions).

So, grand total is $4100.

Not cheap, but I think it will be well worth it in the long-run.  Not only will the heating be more efficient, but I'll feel safer, and the new insert will look great!  Plus, my tax return should be in the 4k area.

Thanks for all the fast responses.  By early Feb, I should have some pictures to post, along with more silly questions


----------



## High_Iron (Jan 12, 2008)

Thats not a bad price for all of the work you are having done. Congrats!


----------



## begreen (Jan 12, 2008)

Congratulations. I like a man of action. It should really make the living area warm and will look great year round. Please take and post pictures.


BTW, did you mean damper or block-off plate? Will the liner be insulated (strongly recommended) and will there be a block off plate installed (Jotul required)? Insist on these two options if you want to get the best performance from the stove.


----------



## sixminus1 (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks!  I don't usually move this quickly on such expensive things, but one of the few joys of winter is the fire, and I consider it an investment in the house.  Whenever something breaks I try to upgrade it instead of just patching it up.  God knows, the houses around here certainly need it!


----------



## sixminus1 (Jan 14, 2008)

Yet another round of questions...

The mason intends to put a new damper on the top of the chimney.  It's the spring-loaded type with the metal cord that comes down inside the masonry chimney.  I don't think the Winterport insert is made to accomodate this type of thing directly.  Has anyone come up with a good way to work this type of damper into an insert installation?  I don't think it would be difficult to drill a hole in the surround panel and run the cord through it.  Is there any way this would interfere with a full liner or the insert itself?

Second, do I need a blockoff plate if I'm going with a full liner?


----------



## webbie (Jan 14, 2008)

Blockoff plate is always a good idea - less heat loss and less cold air coming downward.

If you are relining and using a tight block-off plate, I see little reason to install a top sealing (or any) damper. It will make it harder to install and terminate the liner.

I think the fireplace was put together with inferior mortar in the first place for it to powder out like that.


----------



## begreen (Jan 14, 2008)

I agree, don't put in the top damper. A fully insulated liner + block-off plate is a much better investment.


----------

