# Covid scare



## wishlist (Nov 24, 2021)

Lost my Uncle few weeks ago to heart issues .  No not covid .
Visitation and the funeral were on Friday and Saturday.   Not a extremely large gathering, maybe 40-50 people .
I was careful along with the rest of my immediate family to limit close contact .  It’s hard at a time like this but for the most part we did .    
Within the last week I now have 7 family members with covid , none live in my house .  Fortunately I tested negative along with my sister .   So far no hospitals but 4 are sick , no taste /smell headaches /extremely tired .   We all have had our vaccinations so I’m grateful for that .  
It really shows how this thing spreads so easily.   Needless to say all Thanksgiving plans are off now for the second year in a row .   I’m certainly disappointed but my family’s health comes first .  We will plan something later when we can .


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## clancey (Nov 24, 2021)

Sorry about your family member and hoping you all remain healthy...clancey


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## thewoodlands (Nov 24, 2021)

wishlist said:


> Lost my Uncle few weeks ago to heart issues .  No not covid .
> Visitation and the funeral were on Friday and Saturday.   Not a extremely large gathering, maybe 40-50 people .
> I was careful along with the rest of my immediate family to limit close contact .  It’s hard at a time like this but for the most part we did .
> Within the last week I now have 7 family members with covid , none live in my house .  Fortunately I tested negative along with my sister .   So far no hospitals but 4 are sick , no taste /smell headaches /extremely tired .   We all have had our vaccinations so I’m grateful for that .
> It really shows how this thing spreads so easily.   Needless to say all Thanksgiving plans are off now for the second year in a row .   I’m certainly disappointed but my family’s health comes first .  We will plan something later when we can .


I hope your family members recover and will be fine.  Sorry for the loss of your uncle.


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## wishlist (Nov 27, 2021)

Thank you for the well wishes .  Good news is my nephew is starting to get his taste and smell back .   Rest of the family is still recovering but no hospitalizations so far .


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## begreen (Nov 28, 2021)

Here is some helpful info on boosters and vaccination. 








						Go get your vaccine, especially with Omicron
					

It’s important that everyone gets vaccinated. Even with Omicron. Actually, especially with Omicron. This seems counterintuitive given the “vaccine escape” language floating around. But vaccines are still very important. This is why… First, our house is already on fire




					yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com


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## firefighterjake (Dec 1, 2021)

Getting the booster tomorrow . . .


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## thewoodlands (Dec 1, 2021)

I've had both shots and the booster about a month ago, just like most places the cases are increasing daily in our area, we had 146 cases yesterday with a positivity rate of 8.46 percent with the people in the hospital jumping to 35 from 26.


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## fire_man (Dec 3, 2021)

In MA our positivity rate is approaching 5%.

There is a $3000  incentive being proposed in Rhode Island to get the vaccine.
$3,000 bonuses to state workers .









						McKee mum on $3,000 vaccine bonus for union workers as criticism emerges - The Boston Globe
					

Some legislators called it “unfair” to give bonuses to state and municipal employees when other workers were vaccinated against COVID-19 without financial incentives




					www.bostonglobe.com


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## tlc1976 (Dec 3, 2021)

The only incentives I’ve gotten are a free beer (I don’t drink), some free pot (I don’t smoke), and a free Krispy Kreme donut (nearest one is 200 miles away). My insurance company says I owe $35 for my first shot but I haven’t gotten a bill from the clinic yet.

One coworker tested positive on Monday along with his wife. So he’s home the rest of the week. Across from me but he’s in an enclosed glass office. However there’s one guy who spends at least a half hour at a time socializing with him in the little office. Most likely he would have it by now. Hoping to escape the scare, but this guy just came up to me about a job, and I could still smell his beef jerky breath 5 minutes later. Hopefully I don’t catch it. What kinds irks me is it wasn’t even necessary, I was copied on the same email he got.


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## thewoodlands (Dec 3, 2021)

We had 165 cases in our county on Wednesday, Thursday we had 167 cases with a positivity rate of 8.93 percent for 7 days, not good.

We have 31 people in the hospital with 144 deaths since this chit started with only 56 percent vaccinated but I'm not sure if that's fully vaccinated or just one shot.

We had planned on doing a few things that would put us inside with a crowd but we flushed that idea with the jump in cases.

Stay Safe


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## stoveliker (Dec 3, 2021)

tlc1976 said:


> The only incentives I’ve gotten are a free beer (I don’t drink), some free pot (I don’t smoke), and a free Krispy Kreme donut (nearest one is 200 miles away). My insurance company says I owe $35 for my first shot but I haven’t gotten a bill from the clinic yet.
> 
> One coworker tested positive on Monday along with his wife. So he’s home the rest of the week. Across from me but he’s in an enclosed glass office. However there’s one guy who spends at least a half hour at a time socializing with him in the little office. Most likely he would have it by now. Hoping to escape the scare, but this guy just came up to me about a job, and I could still smell his beef jerky breath 5 minutes later. Hopefully I don’t catch it. What kinds irks me is it wasn’t even necessary, I was copied on the same email he got.



I believe your insurance charging you is not according to current law. These shots don't have out of pocket (ok, paid by taxation...)


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## stoveliker (Dec 3, 2021)

I read NYC is doing better than Long Island now in terms of cases. Despite a higher population density. Same number of cases there last week despite three times the total population in NYC as compared to Long Island.

Due to higher vaccination rates and more mask wearing.


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## fire_man (Dec 3, 2021)

stoveliker said:


> I believe your insurance charging you is not according to current law. These shots don't have out of pocket (ok, paid by taxation...)


I was thinking the same thing, I have not heard of shots costing out of pocket.


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## JRHAWK9 (Dec 3, 2021)

Both of us in our house are vaccinated and we both did the booster shot last week.  I spoke to my other halves' brother (44 years old and healthy....used to play semi-professional hockey) over Thanksgiving and he got Covid (not vaccinated) a handful of months back and was VERY sick.  He did not get checked into the hospital, but was very close to being, as he developed pneumonia from it.  The doctor told him he "should" be able to kick it himself at home due to his age and health, but if it got any worse to come back.  Was down for a few weeks.  He believes he got it from work, as a co-worker of his ended up dying from it.  They are an engineering firm and were all in an office setting.  They were required to wear masks, but none of them did.  Anyway, he told me he no longer has ANY sense of hunger.  He just doesn't get hungry since recovering from it.  He already lost 10-15 pounds since he had it because he just doesn't get hungry and just forgets to eat because nothing is "telling" him he needs to eat.  He said he was at work one day out in the field pounding stakes and started shaking....then he realized he didn't eat the whole day.  He has to consciously remember to eat.  That would suck.

He did say he never lost his taste or smell though,  weird stuff.


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## fire_man (Dec 3, 2021)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Anyway, he told me he no longer has ANY sense of hunger.  He just doesn't get hungry since recovering from it.  He already lost 10-15 pounds since he had it because he just doesn't get hungry and just forgets to eat because nothing is "telling" him he needs to eat.  He said he was at work one day out in the field pounding stakes and started shaking....then he realized he didn't eat the whole day.  He has to consciously remember to eat.  That would suck.
> 
> He did say he never lost his taste or smell though,  weird stuff.


Now that is one cruel and lousy  Covid side effect I never heard of:  loosing your sense of hunger. I can't imagine not craving all my favorite foods!  I live for my Spicy Buffalo wings and Italian Subs!


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## stoveliker (Dec 3, 2021)

Strange indeed. Though I would better like to lose my hunger feeling (and set calendar alerts) than loose my taste permanently...


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## tlc1976 (Dec 3, 2021)

No hunger is normal for me but not from Covid, just lifelong digestive issues. I basically just eat to survive. I can’t eat most things anyway, and what I can eat I have to grind. I’m used to it. It’s kinda nice in a way because I never feel hungry on a road trip, or when having to fast before medical procedures. Or when working on something important. I don’t get turned on by food and have no desire to go to restaurants, so I save money that way.

Loss of smell would be what I’d hate. Not being able to smell smoke, gas, exhaust, leaking fluids, etc. Could be deadly.


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## MTY (Dec 3, 2021)

I become more confused by this everyday.  Less than 50% of the people in Idaho have been vaccinated.  How have the unvaccinated managed not to catch this?  You would think they would be dropping like flies, but according to what I have seen online the infection rate is dropping in Idaho.  Furthermore, a good portion of those infected have been vaccinated.  I do not understand.  

With no neighbors for a couple of miles, and only going to town for grub every 3-4 weeks, and only early in the morning at the 24 hour grocery, I think I have narrowed my chances of catching it.  But why are those unvaccinated going about their lives like life is normal not dropping like flies?  I do not understand.


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## fire_man (Dec 4, 2021)

MTY said:


> I become more confused by this everyday.  Less than 50% of the people in Idaho have been vaccinated.  How have the unvaccinated managed not to catch this?  You would think they would be dropping like flies, but according to what I have seen online the infection rate is dropping in Idaho.  Furthermore, a good portion of those infected have been vaccinated.  I do not understand.
> 
> With no neighbors for a couple of miles, and only going to town for grub every 3-4 weeks, and only early in the morning at the 24 hour grocery, I think I have narrowed my chances of catching it.  But why are those unvaccinated going about their lives like life is normal not dropping like flies?  I do not understand.


Where are you getting your info that "a good portion of those infected have been vaccinated." ? 
According to a recent local news report,  "Only 1.75% of fully vaccinated Idahoans have experienced a breakthrough COVID-1  case".



			https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/coronavirus/article255528586.html#storylink=cpy


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## MTY (Dec 4, 2021)

As long as the government keeps changing the definition of fully vaccinated, is there really a figure that represents the number of fully vaccinated people catching covid?  
Logically speaking, reduced to the absurd if 5 out of 10 people today are fully vaccinated by the governments defifinition, and later this afternoon they change the definition dropping the number of fully vaccinated to1 out of 10, neither definition is valid.  
Hence my confusion, if someone has taken the one dose shot they are vaccinated.  Making them retake the shot every other day does not mean they were not vaccinated on the days they did not get a shot.  It's all word games with no one really knowing what is going on.  It is like Charlie Brown and Lucy.  Did Charlie miss the football, or did Lucy move the football?  Am I fully vaccinated, or did the football get moved?  The low breakthrough number for the fully vaccinated you are supplying is saying Charlie missed, when really Lucy moved the football.  That is why I do not understand.  The only safe option I see is a hermitage.   Any other option is a committment to take the shot every couple of hours if told it is necessary.


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## stoveliker (Dec 4, 2021)

The government has not changed the definition of "fully vaccinated" ever since January. Two weeks after the second shot (and I don't know how many weeks after one j and j shot).

Any and all requirements are based on that definition. The booster shots are not taken into account in the answer to a question who is fully vaccinated at this time.

The definition has been the same for about a year.


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## fire_man (Dec 4, 2021)

MTY said:


> As long as the government keeps changing the definition of fully vaccinated, is there really a figure that represents the number of fully vaccinated people catching covid?
> Logically speaking, reduced to the absurd if 5 out of 10 people today are fully vaccinated by the governments defifinition, and later this afternoon they change the definition dropping the number of fully vaccinated to1 out of 10, neither definition is valid.
> Hence my confusion, if someone has taken the one dose shot they are vaccinated.  Making them retake the shot every other day does not mean they were not vaccinated on the days they did not get a shot.  It's all word games with no one really knowing what is going on.  It is like Charlie Brown and Lucy.  Did Charlie miss the football, or did Lucy move the football?  Am I fully vaccinated, or did the football get moved?  The low breakthrough number for the fully vaccinated you are supplying is saying Charlie missed, when really Lucy moved the football.  That is why I do not understand.  The only safe option I see is a hermitage.   Any other option is a committment to take the shot every couple of hours if told it is necessary.


You are talking as though there has been a "pre-approved script" for handling a pandemic. The rules of the game change as the virus mutates and so  must the science. Vaccination effectivity wanes with time, hence the need for the booster and as Stoveliker pointed out, booster shots are not currently taken into account in the definition for fully vaccinated.

Yes these definitions may change but that is to be expected.


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## tlc1976 (Dec 4, 2021)

fire_man said:


> Where are you getting your info that "a good portion of those infected have been vaccinated." ?
> According to a recent local news report,  "Only 1.75% of fully vaccinated Idahoans have experienced a breakthrough COVID-1  case".
> 
> 
> ...











						Michigan Health Officials Report 16,530 New Coronavirus Cases, 358 Deaths - 9 & 10 News
					

Michigan health officials are reporting 16,530 coronavirus cases and 358 deaths since Monday. According to the MDHHS, between Tuesday and Wednesday, the average number of new cases per day is 8,265. Additionally, they say 160 of the 358 deaths reported Wednesday were identified during a review...




					www.9and10news.com
				




I’ve been seeing this for awhile. They say 30% of those hospitalized for Covid in Michigan are fully vaccinated. I’m wondering how long it will be before having a booster needed to be considered fully vaccinated.


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## fire_man (Dec 4, 2021)

tlc1976 said:


> Michigan Health Officials Report 16,530 New Coronavirus Cases, 358 Deaths - 9 & 10 News
> 
> 
> Michigan health officials are reporting 16,530 coronavirus cases and 358 deaths since Monday. According to the MDHHS, between Tuesday and Wednesday, the average number of new cases per day is 8,265. Additionally, they say 160 of the 358 deaths reported Wednesday were identified during a review...
> ...


I won't be surprised if what you say becomes  true: Fully vaccinated = Boosted

30% covid hospitalization rate for the vaccinated is high but a deeper dive into the data says For Michigan:

Approximately 1.5% of people who were fully vaccinated have been reported with a breakthrough infection



			https://www.michigan.gov/documents/coronavirus/20211116_Data_and_modeling_update_vMEDIA_741480_7.pdf


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## MTY (Dec 4, 2021)

The only way using a figure saying x% of the vaccinated have break through Covid could be a valid measurement of the effectiveness of the vaccines would be to compare that to the total percentage of the unvaccinated that have Covid.  The figure in and of itself means nothing.  If two people are in the hospital with Covid, one of which is vaccinated and the other not vaccinated the ratio in that hospital is one to one never mind that the vaccinated person belongs to a cohort that within itself has a lower infection rate.  

Again, it is all word games.  If after a few months the effectiveness of a vacine wears off, is the person fully vaccinated, or is that person some percentage of vaccinated?  If I eat a meal, and am full, am I still full 10 hours later when the meal has been digested?  By the govenment's use of the term fully vaccinated, I would still be full.  No, when you are told you need a booster, you are told two things.  First, you are not fully vaccinated, and second that due to the lack of long term data no one really knows what they are doing.  They are making it up as they go along and calling that science.  

One of the principles of science is that it is repeatable.  If X then Y.  With the vaccine the formula is more like if X then ?.  And if you argue that with vaccine the formula remains X then Y then you are saying that you hope you are one of the lucky ones, and some other poor dumb buzzard suffers the negative side effects.  Because the negative is going to happen to someone.  

I would be over joyed if someone explained this whole pandemic, and our response to it in a rational logical manner.  I apologize if I have offended someone or caused someone to start thinking.  I remain confused, and unless I am willing to believe on faith I will most likely remain confused.


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## wishlist (Dec 4, 2021)

Just an update …..
All the family is doing much better .  My nephews wife Amanda is still recovering but doing much much better .   She’s in her 30’s and had it worse than anyone .  Yes the whole family got the shots as soon as it was allowed here in Mid Mi back in early spring .  
We are very thankful that nobody was hospitalized.    It’s scary to think what could have happened had we not been vaccinated.  


Although there’s now way to prove the covid was spread at my Uncle’s funeral it certainly seems that way .   
Thank you all for not letting this get political and go down the toilet .


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## SpaceBus (Dec 4, 2021)

firefighterjake said:


> Getting the booster tomorrow . . .


We are getting ours this coming week or the next.


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## SpaceBus (Dec 4, 2021)

A friend's parents in their 80's passed within a week of each other, just within the past week. They were both vaccinated, but didn't wear masks in the grocery store, went out to eat, etc.


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## rottiman (Dec 4, 2021)

Had my 2nd shot the end of June.  They are requiring a 6 month waiting period between the 2nd shot and the booster up here, so I have to wait until the end of this month to get my booster.  It will happen ASAP.


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## fire_man (Dec 4, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> A friend's parents in their 80's passed within a week of each other, just within the past week. They were both vaccinated, but didn't wear masks in the grocery store, went out to eat, etc.


Do you know if they got the booster?


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## fire_man (Dec 4, 2021)

wishlist said:


> Just an update …..
> All the family is doing much better .  My nephews wife Amanda is still recovering but doing much much better .   She’s in her 30’s and had it worse than anyone .  Yes the whole family got the shots as soon as it was allowed here in Mid Mi back in early spring .
> We are very thankful that nobody was hospitalized.    It’s scary to think what could have happened had we not been vaccinated.
> 
> ...


So glad to hear the falmily is doing better


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## SpaceBus (Dec 4, 2021)

fire_man said:


> Do you know if they got the booster?


No boosters.


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## fire_man (Dec 4, 2021)

We got ours about a week before the Omicron announcement. There were tons of opennings for shots. As soon as the news hit  all the appointments got filled. I think they are starting to open up again now.


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## thewoodlands (Dec 4, 2021)

wishlist said:


> Just an update …..
> All the family is doing much better .  My nephews wife Amanda is still recovering but doing much much better .   She’s in her 30’s and had it worse than anyone .  Yes the whole family got the shots as soon as it was allowed here in Mid Mi back in early spring .
> We are very thankful that nobody was hospitalized.    It’s scary to think what could have happened had we not been vaccinated.
> 
> ...


We're glad your family members are doing better.

Zap


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## tlc1976 (Dec 4, 2021)

I got my booster just before thanksgiving so I could recover from the effects while I was off work. When I was originally looking for appointments there were tons. Then it was announced that anyone could get the booster and they filled up fast. Had to go to the next town to get one before thanksgiving.


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## JRHAWK9 (Dec 4, 2021)

tlc1976 said:


> I got my booster just before thanksgiving so I could recover from the effects while I was off work. When I was originally looking for appointments there were tons. Then it was announced that anyone could get the booster and they filled up fast. Had to go to the next town to get one before thanksgiving.



I got my Moderna booster two days before Thanksgiving.  Did you have side effects?  I had nothing after the first two full doses of Moderna, but the booster gave me a headache and made me tired.  I was like that for about 18 hours and then I was back to normal.


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## tlc1976 (Dec 4, 2021)

JRHAWK9 said:


> I got my Moderna booster two days before Thanksgiving.  Did you have side effects?  I had nothing after the first two full doses of Moderna, but the booster gave me a headache and made me tired.  I was like that for about 18 hours and then I was back to normal.


I had the JJ both times. Both times I had a fever of about 102, chills, headache, insomnia then really tired. Starting about 8 hours after the shot and lasting about a day after the 8 hours. Only difference is first shot I had uncontrollably chattering teeth.

Thought about a Moderna booster but I’ve heard of people having much longer lasting effects and I couldn’t be off work that long. Also seems like the JJ shot has worked since my boss exposed me to Covid in October and I either was protected or got lucky.


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## Montanalocal (Dec 4, 2021)

Vaccine inventor: ‘Fundamentally evil’ COVID policies harming children
					

Via WND In a wide-ranging video interview with WND, the vaccine researcher who invented the messenger RNA technology behind the Pfizer and Moderna shots explained why he opposes universal vaccinati…



					www.theburningplatform.com
				




Dr Robert Malone.

Unvaccinated people will get the virus, and the virus will mutate in each person.  But because each person has their own unique set of immune factors, the potential mutations of the virus will be different in each individual.  Then when it attempts to jump to another person, the mutation that it achieved in the first person will come up against a different set of immune factors in subsequent persons.  Therefore, a new strain that could spread widely against whole populations is very very unlikely.

Similarly, vaccinated people will get the virus, and the virus will mutate in each person.  But the whole population of vaccinated persons all have identical artificial immune factors, specifically one set of proteins on the spike protein which the vaccine produces.  Thus, all the vaccinated people who get covid (and it is now well known that the vaccine does not prevent covid infection) will all be a laboratory for the virus to mutate and develop immunity against a single factor.  With millions of people being the setting for the virus developing mutations against an identical immune factor, successful mutations and transmission of that successful mutation to others will become common.  This being inevitable, the vaccinated population is and will be the breading ground for new variants, in increasing numbers and effectiveness.

So thus, unvaccinated people will be more resistant to the virus than vaccinated, which is what we see worldwide.  Every state and country that has a high rate of vaccination, also has the highest rate of covid infection.  And every state and country that has a low rate of vaccination has a low rate of virus infection.  This will continue indefinitely.









						From an immunological point of view, boosters and mass vaccination are as harmful as mold on a wall | Voice for Science and Solidarity
					

The vaccine can not prevent infection nor transmission. By again increasing the antibodies (with the booster), the virus is put under...




					www.voiceforscienceandsolidarity.org


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## fire_man (Dec 4, 2021)

Researcher Distorts Facts on COVID-19 Vaccine Approval, Liability​
In an interview with political strategist Steve Bannon on Aug. 24, Malone misleadingly said that the fully licensed product is not yet available — even though federal officials say the licensed vaccine is the same formulation as, and interchangeable with, the vaccine authorized for emergency use. He then falsely claimed that the vaccine that is available carries with it different liability implications.









						Researcher Distorts Facts on COVID-19 Vaccine Approval, Liability - FactCheck.org
					

The Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine was fully approved by the Food and Drug Administration, though an emergency use authorization also remains in place. Dr. Robert Malone misleadingly said Americans are being offered the shot only under the latter and that it carried different liability...




					www.factcheck.org


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## fire_man (Dec 5, 2021)

I think this thread is starting to circle down the drain.
Like I said earlier, glad the OP's family is doing better.


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## wishlist (Dec 5, 2021)

Please don’t let this go down the drain .  Keep the political stuff out .  It was very interesting reading others experience with the vaccine and boosters .  

I did get my Moderna booster and flu shot at the same time on Wednesday.   Worst part was sleeping with both arms sore as I sleep on my side .  Thursday I had no energy but by Friday morning I felt 100% .


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## stoveliker (Dec 5, 2021)

I got Pfizer and a Moderna booster. There is another thread where people report how they fared. "I got the vaccine".

Glad your family is on the way back up.


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## rottiman (Dec 5, 2021)

Appreciate it if the opinions for or against (politics) go away  to another place.  I do appreciate hearing how people who chose the inoculations,  are feeling and what reactions they experienced.


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## bholler (Dec 5, 2021)

I havnt had a booster yet but with both my shots I had pretty mild flue like symptoms for a day


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## Chuck Pearson (Dec 5, 2021)

"being careful". Wearing an N95 mask is being careful. Anything else is taking your chances. Being related to you doesn't mean you can ignore the mask, as President Biden did with his grandson, leading to a cold.


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## fire_man (Dec 5, 2021)

rottiman said:


> Appreciate it if the opinions for or against (politics) go away  to another place.  I do appreciate hearing how people who chose the inoculations,  are feeling and what reactions they experienced.


I got Moderna because it was the most available for my first shot and my doctor and pharmacist recommended sticking with it for the booster.

My only reaction was a really soar injection site for about 3 days after each of the three shots. It made it hard to sleep but other than that no other side effects.


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## begreen (Dec 5, 2021)

My wife and I got the Pfizer booster a few weeks ago. No reaction. Son gets his Pfizer booster next week. He had a reaction to the 2nd shot, and had flu like symptoms for about 12 hrs, but no reaction to the first shot.


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## wishlist (Dec 5, 2021)

Brother in law who was one of the family members with covid ,  was told by his Dr to wait 90 days and then get the booster .   He said he won’t wait a day later Doc.  

Wife is a DON for a major hospital.   Idk how she and all the other health care workers are  getting thru this .  Some of those news clips about burnout ect. you see on tv are absolutely true is what she has seen firsthand .   I know I couldn’t be a health care worker .


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## stoveliker (Dec 5, 2021)

What people don't realize is that there was a COVID crunch, but while most of us have gotten a reprieve of COVID for quite a while, those in hospitals etc had another crunch right after: all the delayed elective surgeries. It's been a high workload ever since the first COVID wave a year and a half ago  (here).


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## firefighterjake (Dec 6, 2021)

Random thoughts . . .

I wish I had an incentive to get the shots and booster . . . oh wait . . . I did . . . reducing the likelihood of being hospitalized with Covid induced pneumonia. 

Co-worker caught Covid pre-vaccine . . . his sense of smell and taste are still not 100%. Had the opportunity to get the shots, but refuses.

Had the booster shot the other day. Almost 8 hours to the minute after getting the shot I began to experience similar symptoms to what I had on the second shot -- felt chilled to the bone, achy joints, tired . . . followed by waking up drenched in sweat. Felt better the next morning -- just like before -- so I went to work. Should have called in sick. In the next few hours I began to feel worse and worse. Ended up going home at noon and crashing into bed. Woke up 4 hours later and felt better.

Wife is a nurse. To be frank she decided to take some time off when Covid first hit and the nurse shortage (already bad before) meant she was in charge of two floors and had to walk up and down two flights of stairs multiple times a shift. Things obviously have not got much better (in nursing). She is just now thinking about going back . . . not that things are any better . . . but they are offering some very tempting pay rates and sign on bonuses. That said . . . I would be happy to see her do what she wants to do, when she wants to do it vs. risking catching Covid or getting completely stressed out working with too few folks.


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## festerw (Dec 6, 2021)

Two friends of mine also lost their sense of taste last April and haven't regained it. Both were hoping they would be one of the ones that regained it after vaccination but it still hasn't come back.

Another acquaintance just lost his battle with Covid last night after being on a ventilator since last week. Super nice guy that ended up leaving behind a wife who is still fighting her own battle with Covid and 2 children.

Regardless of anyones thoughts on vaccines this virus isn't going away. Stay safe out there.


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## kennyp2339 (Dec 6, 2021)

I'm having a little scare right now, kind of trended down hill as today progressed, started off just tired, but I shrugged it off since I kick my yards butt yesterday all day. Now I have 100deg fever and sore throat.. no loss of taste though so thats keeping me relatively calm so to speak, I just feel like a bum right now, but not really sick either, just meh. 
I dont think I was with anyone that had it, nor have I been on any emergency calls with someone sick (we're prob safer when I'm doing emergency calls since we take our bsi precautions very seriously. 
I'm fully vaccinated so I think I'm just going to see how I feel in the am, re-assess from there.


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## stoveliker (Dec 6, 2021)

There are other viruses going around. Given our situation, I'd see if you can do a test before getting around others?

Good luck.


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## kennyp2339 (Dec 6, 2021)

stoveliker said:


> There are other viruses going around. Given our situation, I'd see if you can do a test before getting around others?
> 
> Good luck.


Oh def, I will more then likely wear a mask at the shop tomorrow to if I go in, idk just thought I would share my experience so far.


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## festerw (Dec 6, 2021)

kennyp2339 said:


> Oh def, I will more then likely wear a mask at the shop tomorrow to if I go in, idk just thought I would share my experience so far.


You can pick up rapid tests from most drug stores for about $20. I'd do that before heading in


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## SpaceBus (Dec 6, 2021)

kennyp2339 said:


> Oh def, I will more then likely wear a mask at the shop tomorrow to if I go in, idk just thought I would share my experience so far.


It's worth it to get a test and wear a mask. It would be a shame to get someone else at your shop sick who can't handle it as well


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## kennyp2339 (Dec 8, 2021)

Still kinda sick, but def not covid....sinus infection.


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## fire_man (Dec 8, 2021)

Those are the pits. I feel for ya anyway.


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## clancey (Dec 8, 2021)

Gargle with warm salt water and take plenty of vitamin C as well as zinc that might help..Drink plenty if liquid hot teas and whatever is going to make you want more to drink--juices or whatever maybe fancy water and if you have Ensure vanilla drink that....no chills stay warm...you will do be up and at it in a few days...Drink  that Ensure and get everything out don.t swallow any of it --even if you have to sit there and not move....clancey


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## jatoxico (Jan 9, 2022)

I got boosted (Moderna) through work in early November and had no effects that stand out. Even the sore arm thing was barely noticeable esp compared to the first two doses.

I ended up w/ something in the roughly 2/3 weeks leading into XMas. Didn't think it was COVID but around that time Omicron was starting to rear its head. Generally not bad enough to miss any work but it lingered and I did have one Saturday into Sunday where I was pretty knocked out.  

Was beginning to feel better then I found out I was exposed to COVID XMas day. Based on that alone I went to get tested three days later and came up positive on the PCR and a couple days later using the less sensitive home test (antigen). Had mild symptoms two days later. The poor nurse that administered the test was telling me they're just getting run ragged.

I don't know if what I had leading up to XMas was COVID or not. Seems a bit unlikely to be positive more than three weeks out from first symptoms, especially on the home test but who knows? 

In any case I was a break through COVID. If what I had before the holiday was something else and my COVID exposure did in fact happen on XMas then symptoms were pretty mild. Was that because it was Omicron, because I was vaxxed or both, again who knows? My wife and 2 college aged kids (all vaxxed) who were also exposed did not get it.


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## fire_man (Jan 9, 2022)

You certainly helped to keep the symptoms mild with the booster. Glad to hear it.


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## tlc1976 (Jan 9, 2022)

The last 2 of my surrounding coworkers were out Friday with it. One had zero symptoms, the other had been in the office coughing and sore throat since Wednesday. So far so good with me, hope it stays that way. The other 3 surrounding me already had it so I’d be the last one, unless I already did and had no symptoms.


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## gzecc (Jan 9, 2022)

My kids brought it Christmas visit ( assume omicron).  All from their previous visit in penn.  All got sick in PA and NJ.  Generally the older you were the sicker you were.  The 20 somethings generally had  mild cold like symptoms and or sneezing.  We did have positive Covid tests.  Everyone recovered without hospital visits.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 31, 2022)

Well . . . despite the shots and booster . . . I ended up with Covid 19 . . . and then spread it to my wife. 

I am about 95% positive I was one of those folks who got the early round of Covid 19 before it was really making the rounds in the news as well way back in early 2020 as I was really, really sick for several days in December 2019 or early January 2020. Back then I was literally in bed for two or three days, hacking, no appetite (which is something for a fat guy like me) and my sense of taste was dulled for a few days. 

In either case it was motivation for me to get the full work up and I thought I did pretty well . . . until two Saturdays ago when once again I was laid right out. Spent all of the day in bed. The good news is despite still having a sore throat and cough, I was able to bounce back pretty quickly. The bad news . . . the positive Covid test meant I was restricted from work for the week.

Pretty sure I know where I caught it . . . not more than three or four days before I was at one of the schools that I go to and the librarian was telling me that the school was having an outbreak. She also let me know via e-mail when I told her I would not be in last week that she too had Covid. 

In any case, seeing as marriage is a partnership I ended up spreading it to my wife (also vaccinated) who came down with worse symptoms than me. Brought her to the ER yesterday for some issues with breathing, but she was given some meds to bring down some of the inflammation in her lungs. She also has a diminished sense of taste . . . which is too bad since we typically go out to eat on her birthday (tomorrow.) Needless to say, I am on "the list" for bringing home the corona virus.


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## kennyp2339 (Jan 31, 2022)

Covid infected my father really bad, he was hospitalized for 6 days, released and on home oxygen for the time being, everyday he's been getting a little bit better. 
At the height of his illness which was day 8 or 10 he had a 103 deg fever and o2 rates in the upper 70's, he gave my mom such a hard time with going to the hospital, we finally got him talked into going, basically my sister aked him over the phone why he wanted to stay home and die a slow death, that was enough to convince him to go, he was admitted asap and placed on oxygen, tested positive immediately. He's now home on O2 holding steady in the mid 90's and will likely be back to full power in another week or so. 
Certainly a scare for us, unfortunately the idea of vaccinations, medications, and even the confirmation of having covid is not sticking with him, its like talking to a rock that is in denial.


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## Dan Freeman (Jan 31, 2022)

Sorry to hear about the Covid infection for you and your wife @firefighterjake and your father @kennyp2339. No Covid for us in two years and we are not vaccinated. We take Vitamin C, Vitamin D, and Zinc every day, and we haven't even had a cold in over 2 years and were both senior citizens. We plan to keep this regimen going without the "vaccine".


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## rottiman (Jan 31, 2022)

We are both in our 70's and have good health for our ages.  Both of us have been vaxed and maintain our normal lo-profile country lifestyle.  When we do venture into town to shop each week we mask up in the store.  Other wise, life goes on as normal.  We also do not pay attention to all of the media fear factor whether it involves covid or the next "catastrophic " event that the media is pushing down their "fear factor" tunnel of mis-information.


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## bigealta (Jan 31, 2022)

Had 2 moderna shots 2/9 & 3/9 last year, and 1 moderna booster in November. Tested Positive Dec. 22 (Rapid PCR at Dr. office). Had No symptoms, only tested because we were going to x mass party for family. Wife also had 3 shots of moderna. She tested negative 5 times over that week, which is crazy because she takes train, subway and bus and works at a school in NYC. I'm sure she already had it sometime before. I never had any symptom. Only reaction to shots were getting tired day of shot and sleeping it off, and a sort of sore arm. No big deal. I'm sure the Vac, helped me as i'm at high risk for bad outcome. I wore masks every time i was inside and was not in contact with many people through out the last 2 years.  Now no one wears masks as almost everyone i know has had positive test. Some friends got it twice. 
And my friends wife 3 times.
If i did not get tested i would swear i never had it.


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## fire_man (Jan 31, 2022)

My daughter worked directly with covid patients in a hospital and as a cashier in a major grocery store so our household was Covid ground zero.

Sure enough my wife got it but it was mild as anticipated thanks to being fully vaccinated.


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## begreen (Jan 31, 2022)

Sorry to hear this Jake. I hope your wife recovers soon. Covid is now presenting a much more serious in caseload than last winter. Our community did really well until the kids went back to school. It started spreading like wildfire through the high school, primarily starting with sporting events like wrestling. Of course the kids bring it home and infect the rest of the family along with friends they hang out with. This has caused a big spike here.
And that spike found my wife a few weeks ago. She only went to the library, (no contact) and to the grocery store, but got infected and a few days later had symptoms. The next day it was clear that she was pretty sick and she got tested with the PCR test which came back positive. That day I took the antigen test (negative) and my son and I took the PCR test which takes 48 hrs to get the results. Both of our tests came back negative and we never caught Covid in spite of it being in the house. Everyone is fully vaccinated and boosted. We're pretty sure she caught it because my son and I only use KN95 masks but my wife was using a cloth mask with an N95 filter. (It's prettier). Anyhow, she has recovered fully now. Most of her symptoms were flu-like with a bit of congestion and headaches lingering for a few days afterward. We are out of quarantine now and in the clear, till the next incident. We're grateful that she was able to recover at home without medical care.


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## bholler (Jan 31, 2022)

My wife tested positive weekend before last and felt like crap but it wasn't all that bad.  The rest of us all tested negative multiple times.  All 4 of us are vaccinated.  I am the only one with a booster.  Wife was scheduled for hers last week but postponed it untill later this week now.  My daughter is due for her booster in about a month.  Son had just gotten his second shot about a month earlier


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## tlc1976 (Jan 31, 2022)

Everyone in my department at work has had it recently. Plus a bunch of others, some right now. Some are still coughing weeks later. I’ve either not had it or been asymptomatic. Nobody takes any precautions at work, even managers. I just wash my hands regularly and avoid breathing deeply when close to others. I use a mask in stores. With my esophagus issues I avoid restaurants anyway. As with any winter I’m more concerned with norovirus so anything I do to avoid that should keep Covid away. I take a multivitamin with C, D, zinc, and some other stuff. Also since long before Covid was around I was taking aspirin and famotidine for other problems, and at times those were thought to help with Covid too. I’ve had 2 JJ shots, so either they’re working or I’ve just not had the virus. It would be nice to know the answer to that.


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## begreen (Feb 1, 2022)

It is a tough situation when people are forced to work in a workplace where there is indifference to spreading Covid. This happened last week to some relatives. No one wears a mask his work and he caught Covid. Now the whole family of 4 persons have it. Two are very sick and two have lupus. This is not the flu and should not be treated like it.


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## gzecc (Feb 1, 2022)

begreen said:


> It is a tough situation when people are forced to work in a workplace where there is indifference to spreading Covid. This happened last week to some relatives. No one wears a mask his work and he caught Covid. Now the whole family of 4 persons have it. Two are very sick and two have lupus. This is not the flu and should not be treated like it.


Unfortunately life isn't fair. Only if your a politician can you hide and protect yourself. Let not forget their Cadillac health plans they manufactured for themselves.
We can't isolate for ever! Life goes on with reasonable precautions. 
The most susceptible should isolate more than the normally healthy.


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## begreen (Feb 1, 2022)

gzecc said:


> Unfortunately life isn't fair. Only if your a politician can you hide and protect yourself. Let not forget their Cadillac health plans they manufactured for themselves.
> We can't isolate for ever! Life goes on with reasonable precautions.
> The most susceptible should isolate more than the normally healthy.


This is not about isolation, it's about common respect. As long as we are in this situation, wearing a mask when in common working areas is just good hygiene and shared respect. In other words, reasonable precautions. It's hard for many to isolate themselves when their paycheck depends on them being in the office or place of work.


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## bholler (Feb 1, 2022)

I wasn't able to isolate at all other than the few times I had to quarantine due to direct exposure


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## gzecc (Feb 1, 2022)

Unfortunately the respect you're referring to is not going to stop these viruses.  Thinking surgical masks are going to stop viral transmission is wishful thinking.  The virus is on hands, masks, digital devices etc. Anyone out in the general public interacting with the general public will get these viruses.  Now Ba 2 is developing. Supposedly more infectious than omicron.


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## begreen (Feb 1, 2022)

A mask is effective, especially when combined with other precautions. In many office situations, one does not touch things outside her/his office or cubicle and can wash hands or sanitize right afterward. When coworkers also wear a mask it dramatically reduces the dispersal of the virus. We're all in this together.


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## bholler (Feb 1, 2022)

gzecc said:


> Unfortunately the respect you're referring to is not going to stop these viruses.  Thinking surgical masks are going to stop viral transmission is wishful thinking.  The virus is on hands, masks, digital devices etc. Anyone out in the general public interacting with the general public will get these viruses.  Now Ba 2 is developing. Supposedly more infectious than omicron.


I have yet to get it and am an essential worker so never shut down.  Had quite a few close contacts with people who had covid.  

No masks don't stop it but the do greatly reduce the risk of transmission when combined with other precautions.


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## fire_man (Feb 2, 2022)

Wearing masks to help reduce the risk of transmission while Covid is still high risk  is no different than the courteous behavior of washing ones hands after using the toilet.

 Its a common sense procedure which helps  prevent potentential transmission of dangerous pathogens. It's really not that complicated to understand.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 2, 2022)

gzecc said:


> Unfortunately the respect you're referring to is not going to stop these viruses.  Thinking surgical masks are going to stop viral transmission is wishful thinking.  The virus is on hands, masks, digital devices etc. Anyone out in the general public interacting with the general public will get these viruses.  Now Ba 2 is developing. Supposedly more infectious than omicron.


Who said surgical masks? My state is giving out N95's now. It's pretty rare to catch covid from surfaces, and most people keep hand sanitizer on themselves now. 

Furthermore this whole pandemic perfectly illustrates that public health in this country is a joke. The only medical support people get is just enough to keep them employed, nothing more. I have a "Cadillac" health plan, but only because I joined the most socialist institution on the planet, the military. Everyone gets a monthly income, health care, dental, vision, etc. so they can be functional parts of a team. Clearly socialism works very well, the US military are the fittest alcoholics on the planet. The members of our armed forces can complete physically and mentally tough tasks while having otherwise crippling substance abuse problems. If everyone had access to such amazing levels of health care, education, and housing opportunities without having to risk their lives for a bunch of capitalists the possibilities of this country would be limitless.


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## gzecc (Feb 2, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> Who said surgical masks? My state is giving out N95's now. It's pretty rare to catch covid from surfaces, and most people keep hand sanitizer on themselves now.
> 
> Furthermore this whole pandemic perfectly illustrates that public health in this country is a joke. The only medical support people get is just enough to keep them employed, nothing more. I have a "Cadillac" health plan, but only because I joined the most socialist institution on the planet, the military. Everyone gets a monthly income, health care, dental, vision, etc. so they can be functional parts of a team. Clearly socialism works very well, the US military are the fittest alcoholics on the planet. The members of our armed forces can complete physically and mentally tough tasks while having otherwise crippling substance abuse problems. If everyone had access to such amazing levels of health care, education, and housing opportunities without having to risk their lives for a bunch of capitalists the possibilities of this country would be limitless.


Socialism works great until people realizes you don't have to work! Can't loose your job, healthcare, home, education.....


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

gzecc said:


> Socialism works great until people realizes you don't have to work! Can't loose your job, healthcare, home, education.....


Can you honestly say the financial side of our current medical system makes more sense in any way than a single payer system?


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## Dan Freeman (Feb 2, 2022)

gzecc said:


> Socialism works great until people realizes you don't have to work! Can't loose your job, healthcare, home, education.....


Or as Margaret Thatcher said, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." One of the best quotes of all time, IMO.

Did you see yesterday's headline? "America's national debt surpasses $30 trillion for the first time." And that does not include the trillions the Fed has been printing to prop up the banks and the stock market that aren't included in the debt.

As Bette Davis said in _All About Eve_, "Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night."


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## Dan Freeman (Feb 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> Can you honestly say the financial side of our current medical system makes more sense in any way than a single payer system?


No. Unless you want to give the government more power. The entire system needs overhauling, but single payer would be disastrous.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> No. Unless you want to give the government more power. The entire system needs overhauling, but single payer would be disastrous.


It hasn't been in most places it has been implemented.  And the current single payer systems we already have work quite well.   

But atleast we can agree our current system doesn't work and hasn't for a long time.


For me it comes down to do you want large profit driven corporations to have the power in our medical system or not


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## Dan Freeman (Feb 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> It hasn't been in most places it has been implemented.  And the current single payer systems we already have work quite well


I tend to disagree wholeheartedly, but don't want to get into a pissing match with you. 🙂

To your edit afterwards: "But atleast we can agree our current system doesn't work and hasn't for a long time." Yes!


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> I tend to disagree wholeheartedly, but don't want to get into a pissing match with you. 🙂


Fair enough


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## SpaceBus (Feb 2, 2022)

The US military is literally a socialist meritocracy. You are paid and given privilege based on rank/time in service, all medical care is free, all housing is free, all food is free, and you just have to show up every day in the right uniform. There is also no limit on money, every country can literally print more. I love the folks talking down on socialism that have never experienced just walking to the clinic and getting care.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 2, 2022)

Are there any numbers from the CDC or anyone that provide how effective the vaccine is at reducing covid symptoms?  Im not sure how such a thing could be measured.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> Are there any numbers from the CDC or anyone that provide how effective the vaccine is at reducing covid symptoms?  Im not sure how such a thing could be measured.


There are studies available.  The problem is the effectiveness changes with each variant


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## stoveliker (Feb 2, 2022)

I'm not sure that there are many studies available that show the efficacy at reducing covid *symptoms*
These would really have to be dedicated studies testing many folks every day. Because this particular issue can't be extracted from societal data (because those w/o symptoms have a large probability of not getting diagnosed).


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 2, 2022)

I’m not against the vaccine but most of what we have been told turns out to be not true (this depends on your source of info) we were told if we mask up, get vaccinated, reach herd immunity we would be back to normal. If the vaccine does not prevent covid is it even a vaccine?  I don’t think the people in charge are telling us everything they know such as the origins of covid or how effective the vaccine is.


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## tlc1976 (Feb 2, 2022)

At least to me, I figure why not get the Covid vaccine? It’s free and available at just about any pharmacy. Better than the flu vaccine which costs me $40-$50 because my insurance doesn’t cover vaccines along with a bunch of other stuff. But I get it anyway.

Effectiveness will probably eventually be the same as the flu vaccine, which is hit and miss around 50% or so. Because of all the variants.

I figure any time either vaccine saves me from being down with the flu, or Covid, it’s a win. True it won’t always work, but there’s definitely some chance it will help. If I don’t get the vaccine, there’s zero chance it will help.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> I’m not against the vaccine but most of what we have been told turns out to be not true (this depends on your source of info) we were told if we mask up, get vaccinated, reach herd immunity we would be back to normal. If the vaccine does not prevent covid is it even a vaccine?  I don’t think the people in charge are telling us everything they know such as the origins of covid or how effective the vaccine is.


There is no vaccine that is 100% effective.  The covid vaccine is no acception to that and the more the virus mutates there is no telling how effective it will be.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 2, 2022)

tlc1976 said:


> At least to me, I figure why not get the Covid vaccine? It’s free and available at just about any pharmacy. Better than the flu vaccine which costs me $40-$50 because my insurance doesn’t cover vaccines along with a bunch of other stuff. But I get it anyway.
> 
> Effectiveness will probably eventually be the same as the flu vaccine, which is hit and miss around 50% or so. Because of all the variants.
> 
> I figure any time either vaccine saves me from being down with the flu, or Covid, it’s a win. True it won’t always work, but there’s definitely some chance it will help. If I don’t get the vaccine, there’s zero chance it will help.


my line of thinking is similar to yours however your natural immunity after recovering from covid if your unvaccinated is much greater than if you are vaccinated.  If you safely recover from covid without a vaccine you may be less likely to get it again.  The gamble is if your health is compromised you may not recover if you are unvaccinated.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> my line of thinking is similar to yours however your natural immunity after recovering from covid if your unvaccinated is much greater than if you are vaccinated.  If you safely recover from covid without a vaccine you may be less likely to get it again.  The gamble is if your health is compromised you may not recover if you are unvaccinated.


I havnt heard that can you post a link to that data


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## fire_man (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> my line of thinking is similar to yours however your natural immunity after recovering from covid if your unvaccinated is much greater than if you are vaccinated.  If you safely recover from covid without a vaccine you may be less likely to get it again.  The gamble is if your health is compromised you may not recover if you are unvaccinated.


This is not true. The vaccine offers better immunity 
   - reference   https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination

"If you've had COVID-19 before, does your natural immunity work better than a vaccine? 

The data is clear: Natural immunity is not better. The COVID-19 vaccines create more effective and longer-lasting immunity than natural immunity from infection."


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## bigealta (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> Are there any numbers from the CDC or anyone that provide how effective the vaccine is at reducing covid symptoms?  Im not sure how such a thing could be measured.


Doubt that would be very accurate if so, but very clear it's effectiveness of reducing the chance you die, or suffer badly when infected.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> - reference   https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination





fire_man said:


> "If you've had COVID-19 before, does your natural immunity work better than a vaccine?
> 
> The data is clear: Natural immunity is not better. The COVID-19 vaccines create more effective and longer-lasting immunity than natural immunity from infection."





fire_man said:


> This is not true. The vaccine offers better immunity
> - reference   https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination
> 
> "If you've had COVID-19 before, does your natural immunity work better than a vaccine?
> ...


I guess I’m not sure what to believe a simple google search gives you a different answer. 









						Natural immunity gets another boost from two new U.S. studies
					

CDC and Johns Hopkins studies show strength and duration of natural immunity protection.




					www.clarkcountytoday.com


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## bigealta (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> I guess I’m not sure what to believe a simple google search gives you a different answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lot's of people are getting covid twice, even my friend who got it before the vax, then got double vaxed, then got covid a 2nd time.


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## fire_man (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> I guess I’m not sure what to believe a simple google search gives you a different answer.
> 
> https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/ne...-another-boost-from-two-new-u-s-studies/[/URL


It sounds like they might both be right

According to the John Hopkins study:

“Before the Delta variant, COVID-19 vaccination resulted in better protection against a subsequent infection than surviving a previous infection.”


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> I guess I’m not sure what to believe a simple google search gives you a different answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you go to the linked studies in that article and read them?   If you had you would see they don't say natural immunity is better than natural immunity and vaccine combined.  

Natural immunity and vaccine is the most effective.  But with natural immunity comes the risks of having covid.  The vaccine is much safer.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 2, 2022)

I’ll check it out.  I had covid in October and had very mild symptoms.   I chose to not get vaccinated because very little testing and information is available for people trying to have children. As I said earlier much that we have been told about covid turns out to be not true.  Experts can’t even agree where covid originated from.  A year ago if someone suggested covid came from a lab they were censored and accused of providing false information.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> I’ll check it out.  I had covid in October and had very mild symptoms.   I chose to not get vaccinated because very little testing and information is available for people trying to have children. As I said earlier much that we have been told about covid turns out to be not true.  Experts can’t even agree where covid originated from.  A year ago if someone suggested covid came from a lab they were censored and accused of providing false information.


How could any of the vaccines effect having children any more than having covid?


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> How could any of the vaccines effect having children any more than having covid?


I’m not a medical doctor and couldn’t tell you how the contents of a vaccine could possibly effect fertility.   Increased Autism was once believed to be related to a vaccine.  Can you say for sure that a rushed vaccine will have zero negative effects on a unborn fetus?  Our government cannot even agree on where covid originated from. I’ll take my chances.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> I’m not a medical doctor and couldn’t tell you how the contents of a vaccine could possibly effect fertility.   Increased Autism was once believed to be related to a vaccine.  Can you say for sure that a rushed vaccine will have zero negative effects on a unborn fetus?  Our government cannot even agree on where covid originated from. I’ll take my chances.


Lots of things have been attributed to vaccines.  But there is not really any evidence of most of them other than a small percentage of people who react badly to them.  And of course a much lower infection rate.

Have previous vaccines using the exact same techniques caused fertility issues?  Is there any evidence of danger to an unborn fetus?


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 2, 2022)

bholler said:


> Lots of things have been attributed to vaccines.  But there is not really any evidence of most of them other than a small percentage of people who react badly to them.  And of course a much lower infection rate.
> 
> Have previous vaccines using the exact same techniques caused fertility issues?  Is there any evidence of danger to an unborn fetus?


The covid vaccine is not the same as any other vaccine.  I can’t tell you what it is in it but it most likely does not contain the same thing as the polio vaccine or the smallpox vaccine. The covid vaccine will not prevent covid either hence my original question has any study been done saying how much the vaccine diminishes symptoms.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 2, 2022)

When the people in charge of protecting us aren’t transparent about the origins of covid it leads to skepticism.  There are other ways to treat covid other than a vaccine.  The problem is covid became a political pawn that has prevented     A lot of information from being said


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> The covid vaccine is not the same as any other vaccine.  I can’t tell you what it is in it but it most likely does not contain the same thing as the polio vaccine or the smallpox vaccine. The covid vaccine will not prevent covid either hence my original question has any study been done saying how much the vaccine diminishes symptoms.


No they are not the same as polio or smallpox vaccines.  2 of them are mRNA vaccines which have been in development since the 70s and used effectively against ebola.  The other is a adenovirus vector vaccine that type had been used since the 70s.  

I don't know what the origin of COVID-19 has to do with the side effects of the vaccines quite honestly.  And yes there are treatments available some are effective some are not.  But the best way to avoid complications from covid is still to not get it.


And again the covid vaccines do greatly reduce the risk of contracting the virus just like every other vaccine.  And like every other vaccine they are not 100% effective.  They are more effective than some and less effective than others


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## fire_man (Feb 2, 2022)

I would like to suggest that something as complicated as determining the origin of a virus is not an easy task. It's not a case of not being transparent, I think they really have not come to a conclusion.


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## tlc1976 (Feb 2, 2022)

As far as how the virus originated, I think we are at the mercy of the country it came from.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

fire_man said:


> I would like to suggest that something as complicated as determining the origin of a virus is not an easy task. It's not a case of not being transparent, I think they really have not come to a conclusion.


Especially when it involves getting information from China.   They are far from transparent


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 2, 2022)

Maybe I read something wrong somewhere but I was under the impression that the covid vaccine gave you zero protection from contracting covid and only weakened the symptoms.  Our government doesn’t seem to be pressuring china to come clean about covid orgins


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> Maybe I read something wrong somewhere but I was under the impression that the covid vaccine gave you zero protection from contracting covid and only weakened the symptoms.  Our government doesn’t seem to be pressuring china to come clean about covid orgins


If that is what you read it was wildly inaccurate.   Now the effectiveness is less with the new variants because that is not what the vaccines were developed to combat.  

I am curious how you know if our govt is pressuring China.


----------



## sprawlnstall (Feb 2, 2022)

What the science says and what the government says are not the same thing.  True, I do not know what pressure if any our government is putting on china to tell the truth.  It wasn’t very long ago that Facebook censored anyone who suggested covid may have come from a lab rather than a wet market.  If our government had anything to do with funding  that lab we may never know the truth.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 3, 2022)

You don't have to look far to see that the vaccines are helping. Look at any state data and compare hospitalizations, cases, and deaths. You will see a significant difference starting in spring 2021 compared to anything from 2020. Even if the case numbers are higher now, deaths are lower and so are hospitalizations. At least that is the case in Maine and many other highly vaccinated states. I can't speak to all states because I don't have the time to look into all of that data. Rather than reference nationwide trends, focus more on your specific state or region. That data is the most relevant to your life. Don't dwell as much on case numbers either, hospitalizations are the most important metric. I get that not a lot of folk die from covid, but a lot more died from covid than any other respiratory illness in the last 100 years. Death is also not the only outcome from covid, there exists other states besides death and asymptomatic. I do not fear dying of covid as much as being crippled by it. I have enough problems without being short of breath for foreseeable future. The statistics and data are confusing and difficult to interpret, just know that if my chances of winning the lottery were the same as getting hospitalized or killed by covid I would be buying tickets by the pallet.


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## gzecc (Feb 3, 2022)

Unfortunately this all proves the the experts are grasping at straws. The virus changes.
Remember "15 days to slow the spread".  Then surgical masks or any face covering, now  n95 masks, next it will be portable head bubbles with scba (self contained breathing aparatus) systems.
Can you imagine the size of the CDC's budget and how well they were prepared for something like this?  Totally unprepared!


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## stoveliker (Feb 3, 2022)

Just as you'd listen to a firefighter coming to your home when there is a fire, who observes but doesn't know everything yet, who makes decisions in how to attack the fire but therefore also makes mistakes in those decisions - I would still listen to them. Because they have seen much more than the home owner, because they have experience.
Just as that, I take the advice from the epidemiologists, the doctors, etc. Because they have seen much much more than I have.

Were mistakes made? Sure. That happens. And yes, let's point out those mistakes, so that lessons can be learned and less mistakes will be made when the next disaster happens.


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2022)

gzecc said:


> Unfortunately this all proves the the experts are grasping at straws. The virus changes.
> Remember "15 days to slow the spread".  Then surgical masks or any face covering, now  n95 masks, next it will be portable head bubbles with scba (self contained breathing aparatus) systems.
> Can you imagine the size of the CDC's budget and how well they were prepared for something like this?  Totally unprepared!


They would have been much more prepared if the pre existing pandemic response plan had been left in place and used.  But it was discarded simply because it was made by the previous administration and it was thought that it wouldn't be needed. 

And yes of course mistakes were made.  This is a situation no one in office had dealt with before and an unknown disease.  Of course there will be mistakes


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## gzecc (Feb 3, 2022)

$7 billion CDC budget 2019 prior to the pandemic.  Even now with inflation that's  a substantial budget.


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2022)

gzecc said:


> $7 billion CDC budget 2019 prior to the pandemic.  Even now with inflation that's  a substantial budget.


Yes and Incase you didn't notice they do allot.  Not sure what that has to do with the issue honestly


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## begreen (Feb 4, 2022)

gzecc said:


> Can you imagine the size of the CDC's budget and how well they were prepared for something like this? Totally unprepared!


There is some truth to that. The previous administration had a pandemic plan in place and a step-by-step playbook ready in case one happened. A new team was brought in and the playbook was tossed out and ignored when the actual pandemic occurred. National health, and this office should not be political.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 5, 2022)

The sad thing is look how big tech has profited from this pandemic.   No wonder they would like to censor any ones opinions that does not align with theirs.  It appears go fund me is planning to give the 10 million dollars raised in Canada to support truckers who don’t support being vaccinated to charity even.


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## bholler (Feb 5, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> The sad thing is look how big tech has profited from this pandemic.   No wonder they would like to censor any ones opinions that does not align with theirs.  It appears go fund me is planning to give the 10 million dollars raised in Canada to support truckers who don’t support being vaccinated to charity even.


So now capitalism is bad?


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 5, 2022)

bholler said:


> So now capitalism is bad?


I guess I’m not sure if a government and big tech working with each other to benefit each other to make a profit is an example of capitalism.  Especially when the same rules don’t apply to everyone.  Censoring someone’s opinion because you don’t agree with it is a violation of our first amendment rights.


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## fire_man (Feb 5, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> I guess I’m not sure if a government and big tech working with each other to benefit each other to make a profit is an example of capitalism.  Especially when the same rules don’t apply to everyone.  Censoring someone’s opinion because you don’t agree with it is a violation of our first amendment rights.


There is a difference between "censoring someone's opinion" and allowing misinformation to propagate.
The problem is:  who gets to decide what constitutes misinformation but CLEARLY there has been a lot of that recently.


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## bholler (Feb 5, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> I guess I’m not sure if a government and big tech working with each other to benefit each other to make a profit is an example of capitalism.  Especially when the same rules don’t apply to everyone.  Censoring someone’s opinion because you don’t agree with it is a violation of our first amendment rights.


I think you should read the 1st amendment again.   

But it's a great example of capitalism when say "big oil" works with the govt to make huge profits?  Or and of the other industries that do the same thing?  Why is it only a problem when "big tech" does it?


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 5, 2022)

bholler said:


> So now capitalism is bad?


I guess I’m not sure if a government and big tech working with each other to benefit each other to make a profit is an example of capitalism.  Especially when the same rules don’t apply to everyone.  Censoring someone’s opinion because you don’t agree with is a violation of our first amendment rights


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 5, 2022)

fire_man said:


> There is a difference between "censoring someone's opinion" and allowing misinformation to propagate.
> The problem is:  who gets to decide what constitutes misinformation but CLEARLY there has been a lot of that recently.


Exactly,  and who gets to decide what is misinformation? Many of the things we are not allowed to talk about turn out to be true. Anyone who said covid may have originated from a lab had their social media accounts suspended. We still don’t know the truth but the science suggests it.  Anything about ivermectin being used to treat covid was censored.


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## stoveliker (Feb 5, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> I guess I’m not sure if a government and big tech working with each other to benefit each other to make a profit is an example of capitalism.  Especially when the same rules don’t apply to everyone.  Censoring someone’s opinion because you don’t agree with it is a violation of our first amendment rights.



I don't believe there has been censoring going on. You can go to any street corner and proclaim anything you want. Your first amendment rights are not in play.

Maybe one can't use all platforms to exercise said rights, but if those platforms are not the public space but private entities (companies), then you don't have that right on those platforms. The first amendment rights do not pertain to private spaces. 

People complaining about Facebook etc not allowing dissenting voices should think carefully as they are in essence advocating that the government should take over private entities or force them to speak what they don't want to say.


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## bholler (Feb 5, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> Exactly,  and who gets to decide what is misinformation? Many of the things we are not allowed to talk about turn out to be true. Anyone who said covid may have originated from a lab had their social media accounts suspended. We still don’t know the truth but the science suggests it.  Anything about ivermectin being used to treat covid was censored.


I again would suggest you read the 1st amendment


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 5, 2022)

bholler said:


> I think you should read the 1st amendment again.
> 
> But it's a great example of capitalism when say "big oil" works with the govt to make huge profits?  Or and of the other industries that do the same thing?  Why is it only a problem when "big tech"





stoveliker said:


> I don't believe there has been censoring going on. You can go to any street corner and proclaim anything you want. Your first amendment rights are not in play.
> 
> Maybe one can't use all platforms to exercise said rights, but if those platforms are not the public space but private entities (companies), then you don't have that right on those platforms. The first amendment rights do not pertain to private spaces.
> 
> ...





stoveliker said:


> I don't believe there has been censoring going on. You can go to any street corner and proclaim anything you want. Your first amendment rights are not in play.
> 
> Maybe one can't use all platforms to exercise said rights, but if those platforms are not the public space but private entities (companies), then you don't have that right on those platforms. The first amendment rights do not pertain to private spaces.
> 
> People complaining about Facebook etc not allowing dissenting voices should think carefully as they are in essence advocating that the government should take over private entities or force them to speak what they don't want to say.


The first amendment may not apply to private entities. However when a government and Silicon Valley get to decide what information we are allowed to talk about and hear our system is broke.  The problem isn’t free speech it is politics and money.


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## bholler (Feb 5, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> The first amendment may not apply to private entities. However when a government and Silicon Valley get to decide what information we are allowed to talk about and hear our system is broke.  The problem isn’t free speech it is politics and money.


I agree politics and money is a big part of the problem which is what many of us have been saying for years.  

But to some it's only a problem now because now it's going against their interests


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 5, 2022)

bholler said:


> I agree politics and money is a big part of the problem which is what many of us have been saying for years.
> 
> But to some it's only a problem now because now it's going against their interests


Very true, many people simply want to live They way they want without others telling them how to do it. Governments should protect its people and regulate corporations, not protect corporations and regulate people.


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## bholler (Feb 5, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> Very true, many people simply want to live They way they want without others telling them how to do it. Governments should protect its people and regulate corporations, not protect corporations and regulate people.


I agree completely.  But many who have been totally against and corporate regulations all along are now all of a sudden calling for them in this case.  Why is that?


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## SpaceBus (Feb 5, 2022)

bholler said:


> So now capitalism is bad?


Big Pharma companies that developed the vaccine did so with tax payers money. We are the investors, but not getting any return. Capitalism without bounds is bad, and right now the oligarchs make the rules.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 5, 2022)

bholler said:


> I agree completely.  But many who have been totally against and corporate regulations all along are now all of a sudden calling for them in this case.  Why is that?


I can’t speak for others but I imagine many of us haven’t experienced an event such as covid that has been politicized and had such an effect on our daily lives, economy, and mental health. Our government shouldn’t try to force and enforce our health care decisions.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 5, 2022)

The small community I live in was forced to fire the majority of its EMS staff because they did not want a vaccination.  From what I understand the hospital that employed them would not receive government funding if the hospital did not follow orders.  This is a very rural area, and there is not another ambulance service nearby.  I do not work for the EMS service but am a public employee.  Many of these EMS workers worked through covid, gave chest compressions to dying covid patients. They understand the risks. Forcing them out of work is going to hurt them their families and our community.


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## bholler (Feb 5, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> The small community I live in was forced to fire the majority of its EMS staff because they did not want a vaccination.  From what I understand the hospital that employed them would not receive government funding if the hospital did not follow orders.  This is a very rural area, and there is not another ambulance service nearby.  I do not work for the EMS service but am a public employee.  Many of these EMS workers worked through covid, gave chest compressions to dying covid patients. They understand the risks. Forcing them out of work is going to hurt them their families and our community.


They were not forced out of work.  They were given the choice of getting a vaccination or not.  Not getting it without a medical reason not to came with consequences.   It isn't about risk to themselves it's about risk to others.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 5, 2022)

bholler said:


> They were not forced out of work.  They were given the choice of getting a vaccination or not.  Not getting it without a medical reason not to came with consequences.   It isn't about risk to themselves it's about risk to others.


We shouldn’t need a medical reason to refuse healthcare.  Does a pregnant mother need a reason to get an choice? I could show you many examples of people who choose to get the covid shot and experienced negative side effects and even died. It doesn’t happen often but it does occur.  Lots of stories of young people having heart problems after being vaccinated. Sadly these stories are suppressed by our media.  I am not against the covid vaccination. We should be allowed to consider our individual situation, age health and make a decision that we feel is best for us.  When our government makes this decision for us it reminds me of a popular Orwell book.


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## wishlist (Feb 5, 2022)

bholler said:


> They were not forced out of work.  They were given the choice of getting a vaccination or not.  Not getting it without a medical reason not to came with consequences.   It isn't about risk to themselves it's about risk to others.


Well said , couldn’t agree more .


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## woodgeek (Feb 10, 2022)

Phew.  Here's my 2 cents as a scientist with a little knowledge of immunology...

Before Covid, there were already 4 human coronaviruses in circulation.  We have ALL had ALL 4 of these coronaviruses in our lives, each multiple times.  They cause cold symptoms, and have been around a long time.  After we get one, we get partial immunity from that one, which then fades over time, and we get it again.  Do these 4 coronaviruses kill people?  yes they do!  Very old and sick people and immunosuppressed people.

And that is all pre-covid.

There is some evidence that one of the 4 popped up in 1890 or so, source unknown, and caused the global pandemic that killed millions (and might have caused the great economic panic that is considered worse than the great depression).  Then once everyone had been exposed, the deaths tapered off, and it just joined the other 3 already in circulation.

As for covid... it looks a lot like the other 4 coronaviruses.  The other 4 have been evolving and developing variants for a long time, and have seldom caused deaths in people whose immune systems have seen the earlier versions.  Covid will probably just turn into #5 eventually.

All these viruses cause head colds, or rarely pneumonia, in people with partial immunity.  There are not a lot of antibodies in nasal mucus, so the virus gets in, infects some cells in your nose, gets sneezed out and its done its job, reproducing and spreading.  And your immune system then goes in and wipes out your infected cells (and causes the cold symptoms in the process).  Normally, if this virus tries to spread beyond your ENT, the antibodies grab it, and prevent the virus from infecting your vital organs.  BC your antibodies are in your blood, not your nasal mucous.

So, now if an unvaxxed person gets covid and has no antibodies, that virus can run rampant through their whole system, infecting all their organ systems (and getting deeper into the lungs) and their brain, causing all kind of havoc.  Death or long-term disability.

So what the vaccine (and booster does) is (1) give you antibodies (which fade after 6-18 mos) and (2) gives you T-cells (which never fade, but need some time to wake up and fight the infection).  You have two lines of defense.

This is why the vax is not perfect in preventing ENT infections from covid.  And the same reason there are no vax's for 'the common cold', bc there are few antibodies and T-cells in nasal mucus.  And with the ENT infection you have 'symptoms'.  BUT the same vax WILL protect you getting worse complications.   Natural infection (if it doesn't kill or disable you first) will give you both antibody and T-cell immunity.  It seems less antibody immunity than the vaccine (so you are more likely to get reinfected and some symptoms), but the T-cell immunity may be better (which means it could be as good at preventing death from organ failure as the vax case).

Bottom line, your immune system is complicated and a wonder that has been saving your azz for decades now, and will hopefully keep doing that in the future.  It only struggles with germs that it **has never seen before**, but once it has seen a germ, it does a great job of keeping you alive (but doesn't care about 'symptoms', you can suck it up while its doing its thing).  Given this, vaccines are brilliant and completely safe... just tipping off your wonderful immune system before an enemy attack.

Covid vaccines work.  People who are vaxxed and boosted get infected by omicron, but their odds of dying are reduced by more than 95%!  The complication rate from the vaccine is less than 1 in a million.

Original Covid kills about 1% of the unvaxxed people it touches, Omicron close to 0.3-0.5%.  I will take a sore arm and a one in a million chance of getting really sick over a 0.3% chance of dying any day of the week.  If you aren't vaxxed, you should be.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Feb 17, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> Phew.  Here's my 2 cents as a scientist with a little knowledge of immunology...
> 
> Before Covid, there were already 4 human coronaviruses in circulation.  We have ALL had ALL 4 of these coronaviruses in our lives, each multiple times.  They cause cold symptoms, and have been around a long time.  After we get one, we get partial immunity from that one, which then fades over time, and we get it again.  Do these 4 coronaviruses kill people?  yes they do!  Very old and sick people and immunosuppressed people.
> 
> ...


That is your opinion....
You are free to get vaxxed, and double vaxxed, and triple vaxxed, and quadruple  vaxxed... 
But when someone has to force you to "save yourself " there is a problem.


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## bholler (Feb 17, 2022)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> That is your opinion....
> You are free to get vaxxed, and double vaxxed, and triple vaxxed, and quadruple  vaxxed...
> But when someone has to force you to "save yourself " there is a problem.


Did your children get to make an informed decision about whether they wanted to get vaccinated or not?


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## stoveliker (Feb 17, 2022)

bholler said:


> Did your children get to make an informed decision about whether they wanted to get vaccinated or not?





Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> That is your opinion....
> You are free to get vaxxed, and double vaxxed, and triple vaxxed, and quadruple  vaxxed...
> But when someone has to force you to "save yourself " there is a problem.


Yes, you are free. No one is forcing you. 
But there are consequences. Such as "kids can't go to school if not vaccinated", or, "you can't work here". 
As with everything in life, there are consequences. You are free to choose otherwise, if you can swallow the consequences.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Feb 17, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Yes, you are free. No one is forcing you.
> But there are consequences. Such as "kids can't go to school if not vaccinated", or, "you can't work here".


But why? If someone wants to take they're chance with Covid, instead of taking they're chance with the vax, why cant they go to school? Or why cant they go to work?


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## stoveliker (Feb 17, 2022)

The same as why kids need to have vaccines against rubella, mumps, etc etc. to go to school.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Feb 17, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> The same as why kids need to have vaccines against rubella, mumps, etc etc. to go to school.


Please provide the reason...


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## peakbagger (Feb 17, 2022)

My friend's wife worked for heathcare and had many employees working in her group. Her observation was that a large majority of the anti-vaxers in her group were the troublemakers. Unless they really screwed up she could not fire them but if they refused the vax they were out the door.  She and her supervisors didnt spend much time trying  to convince the anti-vaxers to take the shot. Yes, they were shorthanded for the short term afterwards but they were a lot better off with the troublemakers gone.


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## stoveliker (Feb 17, 2022)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Please provide the reason...


to stamp out the disease and the deaths and societal cost it causes. Sometimes things happen because the country deems it best for the country, even if not all people agree. Vaccination requirements (to enjoy certain privileges) is one of those. Many other cases exist (see eminent domain).


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## wishlist (Feb 17, 2022)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Please provide the reason...


Thanks to the polio vaccine, dedicated health care professionals, and parents who vaccinate their children on schedule, polio has been eliminated in this country for more than 30 years. This means that *there is no year-round transmission of poliovirus* in the United States.

Maybe this will help ,  seems simple enough to understand.   The polio vaccine started in 1953 I believe .   I’m sure science has come a long long way since 1953 !


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Feb 17, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> to stamp out the disease and the deaths and societal cost it causes.🤣🤣🤣


Do you really believe that???
I know that is the spouted theory, but it is laughable!


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## stoveliker (Feb 17, 2022)

We'll, my wife works in a hospital and in nursing homes. She has seen most of her patients die before the vaccines came about. So that is not believing, it is knowing. I'm a scientist. It's data that matter, not beliefs.

And I suspect insurance premiums will go up after the large add on costs of this pandemic will be charged to all of us.

And I refer to the polio example above.

I understand I won't change your mind. So I'll stop here.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Feb 17, 2022)

wishlist said:


> Thanks to the polio vaccine, dedicated health care professionals, and parents who vaccinate their children on schedule, polio has been eliminated in this country for more than 30 years. This means that *there is no year-round transmission of poliovirus* in the United States.
> 
> Maybe this will help ,  seems simple enough to understand.   The polio vaccine started in 1953 I believe .   I’m sure science has come a long long way since 1953 !


So polio has been declared eradicated!  Is that true?
I recently read a medical report where they accused the unaxxed Amish for"Their lower rates of routine and preventative health care use, reliance on natural remedies, and emphasis on face-to-face collective rituals, which involves crowding into a member’s home for religious services, have contributed to *measles, polio, and rubella* outbreaks in Amish communities". 
Remember we you thought that masks worked?
Remember when you thought if you are vaxxed, you will not spread Covid?
Remember when you thought if you were vaxxed, you would not get Covid?


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Feb 17, 2022)

wishlist said:


> Thanks to the polio vaccine, dedicated health care professionals, and parents who vaccinate their children on schedule, polio has been eliminated in this country for more than 30 years. This means that *there is no year-round transmission of poliovirus* in the United States.
> 
> Maybe this will help ,  seems simple enough to understand.   The polio vaccine started in 1953 I believe .   I’m sure science has come a long long way since 1953 !


So polio has been declared eradicated!  Is that true?

I recently read a medical report where they accused the unvaxxed Amish for"Their lower rates of routine and preventative health care use, reliance on natural remedies, and emphasis on face-to-face collective rituals, which involves crowding into a member’s home for religious services, have contributed to *measles, polio, and rubella* outbreaks in Amish communities". 

Remember when you thought that masks worked?
Remember when you thought if you are vaxxed, you will not spread Covid?
Remember when you thought if you were vaxxed, you would not get Covid


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## bholler (Feb 17, 2022)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> So polio has been declared eradicated!  Is that true?
> I recently read a medical report where they accused the unaxxed Amish for"Their lower rates of routine and preventative health care use, reliance on natural remedies, and emphasis on face-to-face collective rituals, which involves crowding into a member’s home for religious services, have contributed to *measles, polio, and rubella* outbreaks in Amish communities".
> Remember we you thought that masks worked?
> Remember when you thought if you are vaxxed, you will not spread Covid?
> Remember when you thought if you were vaxxed, you would not get Covid?


No polio has not been eradicated it's still here.  It's just that most people are not vulnerable to it anymore.  

Masks do work.  That has been proven over and over.  Are they 100% effective no of course not but they help allot.

The vaccines work.  That has been proven over and over as well.  Again not 100% effective but a hell of a lot better than without it.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Feb 17, 2022)

bholler said:


> No polio has not been eradicated it's still here.  It's just that most people are not vulnerable to it anymore.
> 
> Masks do work.  That has been proven over and over.  Are they 100% effective no of course not but they help allot.
> 
> The vaccines work.  That has been proven over and over as well.  Again not 100% effective but a hell of a lot better than without it.


This is per the CDC:*The United States has been polio-free since 1979, thanks to a successful vaccination program. However, poliovirus is still a threat in some countries. Get your child vaccinated on schedule to help keep the U.S. polio-free.

Ummm, someone is lying...*


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## bholler (Feb 17, 2022)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> This is per the CDC:*The United States has been polio-free since 1979, thanks to a successful vaccination program. However, poliovirus is still a threat in some countries. Get your child vaccinated on schedule to help keep the U.S. polio-free.
> 
> Ummm, someone is lying...*


Yes the us is polio free because we are pretty much all vaccinated.  If we stop vaccinating for it we won't be any more it's pretty simple honestly.  Think a little bit


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## woodgeek (Feb 17, 2022)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Remember we you thought that masks worked?
> Remember when you thought if you are vaxxed, you will not spread Covid?
> Remember when you thought if you were vaxxed, you would not get Covid?



My opinions are my own, but are scientifically informed.  If you don't believe in science, you should say that explicitly.  Maybe renounce technology and join the Amish?

1. Masks do work.
2. I never thought that getting vaxxed would prevent me from getting and/or spreading Covid, because that was never the scientific expectation.   I thought they would reduce the probability of those things somewhat, and that that partial protection would fade with time.

My post was in fact trying to explain that the point of getting vaxxed (and boosted) is to reduce the chance of dying (and severe illness), and how it is that vaccines are much better at that than preventing infection and transmission.  IOW, your vaxxed immune system is not capable of preventing infection or transmission (just like how you get colds again and again), but it IS able to keep you from dying (assuming its working ok).

You can choose to not get vaxxed, just like you can decide to smoke two packs a day, despite both being a danger to your health, and to a lesser extent the health of those around you.  But don't pretend its the smart or healthy choice.


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## wishlist (Feb 17, 2022)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> This is per the CDC:*The United States has been polio-free since 1979, thanks to a successful vaccination program. However, poliovirus is still a threat in some countries. Get your child vaccinated on schedule to help keep the U.S. polio-free.
> 
> Ummm, someone is lying...*


My post about the polio vaccine was straight from the CDC .   Guess I should have clarified that but I don’t believe it would make any difference whatsoever .   
Your gonna believe what you want to believe and as was previously stated nobody here is gonna change your mind .   
I’ll take the science of mask and vaccines .


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 17, 2022)

Until everyone comes to realize that many of the issues over vaccines are politically motivated it is going to be hard to have a honest conversation about it.  We have not followed the science when it comes to mask mandates, we have not followed the science when it comes to the orgins of covid.  Do you think our blue states finally decided to end mask mandates because of the science? No mandates were ended because they feared it would impact midterms.  The vaccine does not prevent covid it lessens the symptoms.  People who are double vaxed with a booster still get covid.  The cdc even changed the definition of what a vaccine is.  If the polio vaccine didn’t stop polio should it be called a vaccine?  The Supreme Court ruled vaccine mandates are unconstitutional however federal funded employers are required to have a mandate if they want funding.   Yes the vaccine does lessen symptoms of covid and has saved lives  however there has been cases of heart inflammation after taking the vaccine especially for young people.   The decision to get a vaccine is personal decision everyone should have a right to decide. For some of us it may may be the best option.  Personally nearly everything we have been told about covid is wrong and the only explanation we get is the science has changed.


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## fire_man (Feb 17, 2022)

The antivaxers should all find a desserted island to live on and let darwin's theory play out.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 17, 2022)

There have been studies done where the majority of the population has been vaccinated, look at the Israel study to see how it compares to the USA. To my knowledge their is no other way to treat polio besides a vaccine. This is not true for covid, the sad thing is it has become so political we can’t suggest it because we are censored for misinformation.  Just to be clear I am not against vaccines but for free speech and freedom to make my own decisions


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## bholler (Feb 17, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> Until everyone comes to realize that many of the issues over vaccines are politically motivated it is going to be hard to have a honest conversation about it.  We have not followed the science when it comes to mask mandates, we have not followed the science when it comes to the orgins of covid.  Do you think our blue states finally decided to end mask mandates because of the science? No mandates were ended because they feared it would impact midterms.  The vaccine does not prevent covid it lessens the symptoms.  People who are double vaxed with a booster still get covid.  The cdc even changed the definition of what a vaccine is.  If the polio vaccine didn’t stop polio should it be called a vaccine?  The Supreme Court ruled vaccine mandates are unconstitutional however federal funded employers are required to have a mandate if they want funding.   Yes the vaccine does lessen symptoms of covid and has saved lives  however there has been cases of heart inflammation after taking the vaccine especially for young people.   The decision to get a vaccine is personal decision everyone should have a right to decide. For some of us it may may be the best option.  Personally nearly everything we have been told about covid is wrong and the only explanation we get is the science has changed.


Vaccines have never been 100% effective.  No one changed the definition of a vaccine.  Our current covid vaccines were very effective at preventing infection from the original variant they were designed to work against.  They are less effective against variants but they still reduce the chance of contracting the virus and greatly reduce the severity of symptoms if you do get it


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## bholler (Feb 17, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> There have been studies done where the majority of the population has been vaccinated, look at the Israel study to see how it compares to the USA. To my knowledge their is no other way to treat polio besides a vaccine. This is not true for covid, the sad thing is it has become so political we can’t suggest it because we are censored for misinformation.  Just to be clear I am not against vaccines but for free speech and freedom to make my own decisions


Yes there are ways to treat covid.  But claiming certain drugs are effective with absolutely no evidence to support that claim isn't helpful to anyone


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 17, 2022)

Yes, the Cdc did change the definition of a vaccine to be more transparent.  As far as the vaccine preventing covid I’m skeptical. can you provide scientific proof?


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## bholler (Feb 17, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> Yes, the Cdc did change the definition of a vaccine to be more transparent.  As far as the vaccine preventing covid I’m skeptical. can you provide scientific proof?











						Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines over a 9-Month Period in North Carolina | NEJM
					

Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines over a 9-Month Period in North Carolina



					www.nejm.org
				












						Studies: COVID vaccines effective, with limited waning
					






					www.cidrap.umn.edu
				




There are many many studies available from many different places.  Just open your eyes.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 17, 2022)

Maybe I’m missing something the article seemed to discuss covid hospitalizations.  Look at the vaccine rates in the Israel study compared to the USA.  I also saw a study that says natural immunity can last 3-63 months. Not everything we read on the internet is true especially when political influence is in play.  


bholler said:


> Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines over a 9-Month Period in North Carolina | NEJM
> 
> 
> Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccines over a 9-Month Period in North Carolina
> ...


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 17, 2022)

We can all find a scientific study that supports our beliefs and views. Would you like me to send you links to articles discussing heart problems developed in young people after being vaccinated?  Once again I’m not against vaccinations and would probably suggest anyone with compromised health conditions to talk with there dr to consider being vaccinated.


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## qwee (Feb 18, 2022)

Covid-19 is like playing a game of football. One's immune system is the playing field. You may be forced to play this game whether you want to or not. Vaccinations are like you have recruited some pro prospects for your immune system - they are in shape and they are ready to play. Covid-19 enters the playing field/your body with a good team. This team tries to score - take over cells as virus do. But the pros are there so fast and tackle them (lock onto covid proteins). They drag the Covid team off the playing field. The pros are strong and many.

The unvaccinated football team is a weak one - this team is out of shape and doesn't practice much (untrained immune system). And they are slow, too. So this team is small, slow and untrained. Covid enters onto the playing field (the blood stream). The covid team starts attacking/entering cells. The other team isn't ready,  This team's players can't really slow the covid team down. This wimpy team begins recruiting new players (the body's immune system starts making attack cells to battle covid - an immune response). But this can be slow and ineffective in some cases. This wimp team is few in numbers, and slow too. If they had only been better prepared.

Why prime the playing field (your blood stream)? All priming your immune system is doing is throwing in some inert protein matter that forces your football team to get in shape and to multiply before you play the real covid-19 team. Isn't it better to prepare oneself for the upcoming battle that may be coming?


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## clancey (Feb 18, 2022)

This whole story is a political situation and my brother died of wrong protocol and lots of other people too... Stop trying to change minds for it does no good even when it involves their own health. Do it privately with your friends and your love ones...How many ways can you tell people who have taken not much time to get into this subject thinking that their "news feed" are the legitimate ones  and it is this one that they "choose to believe" so be it... They have a right to believe the way that they wish too. Each segment of people are in their own bubble and that's the way it is...and "nothing can change that"...Be like a turtle ---pull yourself in---and "I pray for everyone of you" for we get a glimpse how the future could go and a weird thing happened today----hundreds and hundreds of birds fell from the sky coming down in a clump and as you all know---I love birds. God Bless Every One of You...clancey


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Feb 18, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> My opinions are my own, but are scientifically informed.  If you don't believe in science, you should say that explicitly.  Maybe renounce technology and join the Amish?
> 
> 1. Masks do work.
> 2. I never thought that getting vaxxed would prevent me from getting and/or spreading Covid, because that was never the scientific expectation.   I thought they would reduce the probability of those things somewhat, and that that partial protection would fade with time.
> ...





fire_man said:


> The antivaxers should all find a desserted island to live on and let darwin's theory play out.


Why the hate??? You are "protected" so why do you care if other people choose not to get vaxxed? Do you also hate people that smoke, because they are doing something that might affect theyre health? What about obese people.  Do you hate them because theyre eating habits will be theyre early demise?
**


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## bholler (Feb 18, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> Maybe I’m missing something the article seemed to discuss covid hospitalizations.  Look at the vaccine rates in the Israel study compared to the USA.  I also saw a study that says natural immunity can last 3-63 months. Not everything we read on the internet is true especially when political influence is in play.


Ok first it is a scientific study not an article.  And maybe that one does focus on hospitalizations.   I should have read them further.  But even those studies do go into protection from infection if you read the body of them.  

And you absolutely can't believe everything you read on the internet.  That's why it's important to rely on peer reviewed studies from reliable sources.



clancey said:


> This whole story is a political situation and my brother died of wrong protocol and lots of other people too... Stop trying to change minds for it does no good even when it involves their own health. Do it privately with your friends and your love ones...How many ways can you tell people who have taken not much time to get into this subject thinking that their "news feed" are the legitimate ones  and it is this one that they "choose to believe" so be it... They have a right to believe the way that they wish too. Each segment of people are in their own bubble and that's the way it is...and "nothing can change that"...Be like a turtle ---pull yourself in---and "I pray for everyone of you" for we get a glimpse how the future could go and a weird thing happened today----hundreds and hundreds of birds fell from the sky coming down in a clump and as you all know---I love birds. God Bless Every One of You...clancey


Don't rely on news feeds rely on scientific studies


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## woodgeek (Feb 18, 2022)

You can think about this as political, or you can think about the differences as being a result of how different viruses interact with the body.  Which is super different.

Polio?  Polio infects you systemically and attacks your nerves.  Since your antibodies and T-cells are in your bloodstream where the virus needs to work, a vaccine CAN prevent infection and nerve damage.  And the vaccine is EASY to make, you just inject polio virus proteins or attenuated virus.  (Smallpox was also easy, bc it needs to get into you skin, which is full of immune cells.)

AIDS?  HIV infects your immune system itself!  Very sneaky that.  And after 40 years, we don't have a working vaccine.

Common Cold (including the other 4 coronaviruses)?  We have all heard 'we can land people on the moon, but we can't find a cure for the common cold!'  Why?  Bc as I said, the cold virus just infects your ENT cells, and only needs to do that to replicate and get transmitted.  And its almost impossible for your immune cells to protect that first line of defense in your body.  The virus doesn't (and doesn't need to) infect you systemically.  We COULD make a vaccine against the common cold (it would be easy), but all it would do is reduce the odds of you getting a cold somewhat, for a little while.  And since no healthy people die from colds, there would be no market for that protection.

So when Covid happened, if you read the actual scientific literature at the time (as I did) or understood basic virology, you knew 99% that it would be like the common cold case, and not like AIDS (no vax for decades) OR polio (easy vax that wipes out the disease).

But we also knew that a NEW coronavirus could kill.  Remember the 1890 virus. OG Covid has a death rate of 1-2%, which is a lot higher than its coronavirus cousins that we have all had a bunch of times.  But there is nothing obviously that different between Covid and those others, except that we have never had it before, and thus zero antibodies and T-cells.  For the other 4, we are getting them for the first time as children, and already have antibodies (like getting vaxed) from our mothers and mother's milk.  Just like how babies born after 2030 will all be protected from covid without a shot.

So any virologist would have told you by mid 2020 that the most likely end game for the pandemic was to kill 1-2% of the world population over the course of a few years, and then covid would settle down to an endemic virus that kills very few people, **just like** the last new pandemic coronavirus in 1890.  IOW, it would kill 50-100 M people worldwide in a few years without any mitigation  It was this (still correct) projection that led to lockdowns and masking.  Duh.  Delay the spread until we can get everyone vaxxed.

The world is still less than half vaxxed (with GOOD vaccines) after 2 years, and the global death total is a bit over 10M (deaths are significantly underreported overseas).  That is a LOT of saved lives (again, most of them overseas) bc of masking and mitigation.  This death number will continue to climb until the world gets fully vaxxed, but it will hopefully come in under 20M.  Mitigation and vaccination will have saved 30-80 M lives worldwide.   AWESOME.  Go Science and public health!

And all of the above was well known and predictable to anyone who could and did read the science, in mid-2020.  Period.

It could've gone different ways:

--The virus could've mutated to get more deadly (they do that sometimes).  MERS is a coronavirus that has a 20% death rate in unvaxxed people!  20%!  And it raged through Korea causing a mass panic in 2015.  That is why the asian countries are all great at masking... they had a big scare with a virus with 10x the death rate of Covid just 5 years prior.  So they don't eff around over there.

--The virus could mutate to become less deadly.  It looks like Omicron is 50% less deadly.  It kills 0.5-1% of the unvaxxed, unlike the 1-2% of earlier strains.  Bit too high for my comfort, but that means that the original 100M global deaths without mitigation, would 'only' be 50M with Omicron (or 3000 Million with MERS).  The unvaxxed caught a big break.  50% lower chance of death.  

--Everyone could've gotten vaxxed and boosted (if eligible) in the US. This didn't happen.  If this had happened, there still would have been a Delta wave and an Omicron wave (which started overseas).  You still would've started getting covid sometimes, just like we all will in the future.  But the death and hospitalization rates would be far lower than they have been, and we would've gotten 'back to normal', maybe wearing masks for a month or two in some public settings, way earlier than we have.

--There are anti-vax people in every country.  In fact there are similar numbers of them.  On the scale of mandates and forced vaccination, the US is, predictably, not doing that very much at all.  We do allow our citizens to make a lot of dumb choices that people in other countries are not allowed to make.  That is also not really a surprise to anyone.

--The reopening while the virus is still circulating now?  Also predictable.  Had to happen.  In every other pandemic in history the population gets to the point of being done with mitigation.  In a couple years.  Look in a history book.  And so the goal was always to use mitigation (which has a finite time limit) to limit the spread (and deaths) until we could get everyone vaxxed.  If everyone had gotten vaxxed last summer (and boosted this winter), we would've ended mitigation sooner (!) than we did.  Right now we have vaxxed people doing mitigation not bc they are stupid or coerced or misinformed, but to protect the unvaxxed!  And they are tired of doing that.  I still wear masks at work and on the train, which is a PITA, not bc I am in any danger from Covid (I'm not), but on the off chance that I could spread the virus to a (willingly) unvaxxed person.  But the vaxxed and masking people are DONE.  You unvaxxed people had your chance to protect yourselves, now you can face the consequences of not doing so.  For 90+% of you, those will be minimal. Good luck.


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## woodgeek (Feb 18, 2022)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Why the hate??? You are "protected" so why do you care if other people choose not to get vaxxed? Do you also hate people that smoke, because they are doing something that might affect theyre health? What about obese people.  Do you hate them because theyre eating habits will be theyre early demise?



An important point.  I'm not a hater, and I don't hate the unvaxxed, or smokers, or the overweight.  At all.

People who smoke and are overweight are all well aware of the dangers.  Let's put them aside.

We live in a society filled with **grifters**.  People peddling misinformation for their own purposes, like getting famous or messing with people they don't like, but mostly just to make loads of money.  Of course, there have always been grifters, and no political party or country has ever been free of it. They live in a legal gray area.  It's perfectly legal to tell people (most) things that are not true.  So if you can make a buck at it, go for it.

The internet and social media have been a huge boon to grifters. And the result is an explosion of grifting.

I happen to think that at this time one political party has a much bigger grifter problem than the other, in fact being infested by them.  And that historically, the roles may have been reversed.  But I am also certain that the current level of grift is not sustainable, and will naturally correct itself.

Now, there are grifters and there are 'marks'.  If there are people who know that the vax is much less likely than covid to hurt them, and don't get vaxxed for whatever reason... I'm aok with them.  Free country.  But I think a lot of the unvaxxed are just marks.  And a lot of grifters have made money and fame (and political success) making them marks.  Why would I hate a mark?

I don't do hate.  I can't even work up a proper hate on my ex-wife.  Who certainly would deserve it.  Trust me.

The people that piss me off?  The middle men for grifters.  That is a sweet business model.  I don't even have to get my hands dirty making up misinformation, if I can make a percentage on the trafficking of it.  Zuckerberg knows that his platform is ground zero for grifters doing their thing.  But the grifters really rake in the eyeballs and the clicks, and he makes money on that.  If he got rid of all the misinformation, it would seriously dent his bottom line.  His content would look like the boring news from CNN or BBC, and he'd have no edge.  So he will never do that.

But Zuck is an easy target.  Fox is an easy target.  The Russian troll farms are an easy target.  And ofc all three feed each other.

But I think ALL the media is guilty.  Journalism schools taught 'both-sides'-ism.  They taught journalism was not about finding (or even assessing) the truth any more, just report both sides and let the readers decide.  Easy!  And guess what, both-sides journalism makes for better click-bait articles, and more reposted articles, compared to boring old restatements of scientifically or historically validated facts.

And so ALL media enables misinformation, and is in on the grift.

For the record, if I want to know what's true, I just go read wikipedia first.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 18, 2022)

If I choose to become vaccinated and experience negative side effects can I hold the manufacturer responsible? If my employer or the federal government forced me to become vaccinated can I hold them responsible?  The answer is no.  Imagine having your chimney cleaned by a professional company and their negligence results in your house burning down.  You can hold them responsible.  Choosing to get a vaccination is one thing but mandates are something much different.


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## woodgeek (Feb 18, 2022)

I like hearth analogies...

Imagine instead that we lived in a world with 'slammer' insert installs, and plenty of folks burned wet wood in them, creosoted up their stacks, and had house fires as a result.

And then the govt decided to ban those kinds of installs, **mandating** that you spend your hard earned money on SS liners.  At least on new installs. And guess what--very rarely--someone still has a housefire from their properly installed woodstove insert and liner.

Would you be able to sue the maker of the (non-defective) liner?  Nope!

Well, if someone was on a FB video talking about how they and their friends have been burning wet wood in their slammers for decades without a problem but the guy down the street with a liner had a housefire (none of which is verifiable, btw), NOW its pitchforks and torches time.  Gotta shut down those liner makers!  They're colluding with the govt just to make a buck peddling garbage liners!

Can you sue them now?  Still nope, bc its BS.

Medicine is about risk.  Its all probabilities.   They do large studies according to legal rules and requirements, assess the risks of treatment or not treatment, and are given a license to sell their medicine, or denied a license.  Cars kill people, but the makers have a license to sell them.  So if a vaccine killed one in a million people, but saved 1000 in a million, and there was no better vaccine, they would get a license.  Done.  And in reality, the vaccines in use have an injury rate well below 1 in a million.


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## firefighterjake (Feb 18, 2022)

All I know is I will be much happier when things return to "normal" . . . my wife is a nurse and she wisely decided to take a few months off. To tell the truth after seeing how some folks act I am not eager for her to return to work.


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## wishlist (Feb 18, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> If I choose to become vaccinated and experience negative side effects can I hold the manufacturer responsible? If my employer or the federal government forced me to become vaccinated can I hold them responsible?  The answer is no.  Imagine having your chimney cleaned by a professional company and their negligence results in your house burning down.  You can hold them responsible.  Choosing to get a vaccination is one thing but mandates are something much different.


Good questions.  Did you ask these questions when you were vaccinated to go to school? College ?  Did you refuse?


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 18, 2022)

wishlist said:


> wishlist said:
> 
> 
> > Good questions.  Did you ask these questions when you were vaccinated to go to school? College ?  Did you refuse?
> ...


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## stoveliker (Feb 18, 2022)

Not the same, but conceptually not different.

Neither were *made* a political issue. Mandates were mostly received with joy. Not uniformly, but.mostly.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace (Feb 18, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> My opinions are my own, but are scientifically informed.  If you don't believe in science, you should say that explicitly.  Maybe renounce technology and join the Amish?
> 
> 1. Masks do work.
> 2. I never thought that getting vaxxed would prevent me from getting and/or spreading Covid, because that was never the scientific expectation.   I thought they would reduce the probability of those things somewhat, and that that partial protection would fade with time.
> ...





fire_man said:


> The antivaxers should all find a desserted island to live on and let darwin's theory play out.


Why the hate??? You are "protected" so why do you care if other people choose not to get vaxxed? Do you also hate people that smoke, because they are doing something that might affect theyre health? What about obese people.  Do you hate them because theyre eating habits will be theyre early demise
*








						YouTube
					

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




					www.youtube.com
				



*


stoveliker said:


> .
> Mandates were mostly received with joy.


By your type, that is huddled in the basement, double masked, vaxxed, and quivering in fear from all the media hype.
The average working man, has zero use for all these mandates.
If he wants to wear a mask, he can.
If he want a vax, he can get one.
How about you concern yourself with where Covid came from???
Worry about something useful...


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## stoveliker (Feb 18, 2022)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> By your type, that is huddled in the basement, double masked, vaxxed, and quivering in fear from all the media hype.
> The average working man, has zero use for all these mandates.
> If he wants to wear a mask, he can.
> If he want a vax, he can get one.
> ...




Thank you for telling me what type I am. I could indeed use that as you know me much better than I do.

I meant that the polio vaccine was received with joy. Google it. Or ask your parents.


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## woodgeek (Feb 18, 2022)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> By your type, that is huddled in the basement, double masked, vaxxed, and quivering in fear from all the media hype.
> The average working man, has zero use for all these mandates.
> If he wants to wear a mask, he can.
> If he want a vax, he can get one.
> ...



No huddling or quivering.  I knew that I was low risk, and what steps I needed to take to minimize infection, a working man throughout.

If you are so far down the rabbit hole, that you think that public health officials, charged with protecting the 'average working man', are corrupt or evil, well there will be no reaching you.  Vaccine mandates were good enough for George Washington, so they seem like a good idea to me.

I HAVE looked into where the virus came from, as have a lot of people.  I am rather convinced that is was an accidental escape of a partially engineered virus from a virology lab in Wuhan, as are many scientists I know.  One person I read described covid as 'biotech's Chernobyl'. Except it killed 50,000x as many people as Chernobyl.

Why?
--Imagine that the next pandemic virus appears, of all places, in Decatur, Georgia, in a Whole Foods down the street from the CDC.  Would that be suspicious?
--Now imagine that the virus is clearly related to a bunch of viruses know to live in that giant batcave outside Austin TX (and not present in GA at all), and that the CDC is the world leader in collecting those viruses from Austin and studying them.  Is that suspicious?
--Ofc, also suppose that there are  allegations of underfunding at the CDC and scientists cutting corners on PPE and occasionally getting infected with the viruses they are studying.
--Now what if a scientist at the CDC had written a proposal to the NIH suggesting engineering one of those bat viruses to have a receptor to a human protein (ACE) which none of those bat viruses had previously been know to have (but which unrelated human viruses often do)?  And then the new pandemic virus happened to have just that particular receptor molecule?  And it appeared less than 12 mos after the proposal was submitted! Suspicious?

What would you think?

That was the situation in Wuhan.  Scientists there actually proposed (to the US NIH) engineering a bat coronavirus to bind a human ACE receptor.  The proposal was not funded, being deemed ridiculously irresponsible and dangerous.  6 months before Covid popped up in the same neighborhood where that scientist worked, 500 miles from the batcave.

As a scientist, I will tell you a secret... we routinely write funding proposals about experiments that we are already doing, or just about to do!


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## bholler (Feb 18, 2022)

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Why the hate??? You are "protected" so why do you care if other people choose not to get vaxxed? Do you also hate people that smoke, because they are doing something that might affect theyre health? What about obese people.  Do you hate them because theyre eating habits will be theyre early demise
> *
> 
> 
> ...


What you call fear I simply call respect for those around me and humanity as a whole.  Taking those steps have been proven over and over to reduce transmission which reduces the death toll.   I worked through the entire pandemic other than a couple periods when I had to quarantine due to direct exposure.

Now as far as where it came from yes it is important.  But it really doesn't effect how we deal with the situation at all.  Yes if it was released from a lab either accidentally or purposely those responsible should be held accountable.  But again it changes nothing about our current situation.


We have told you over and over we really don't care what the media says.  Pay attention to the science.


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## clancey (Feb 18, 2022)

bholler I think you should stop lecturing people and let them decide on these important things on their own with their own knowledge with having the freedom "to decide for themselves and their family"..No one in America should be forced to put a foreign substance in their body with "threats" of a loss lively hood if they do not concur especially with all the "Lying" agendas that we all have been through so please do not put a "guilt trip" on anybody who decides differently than you. Its very unbecoming I think...clancey


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## bholler (Feb 18, 2022)

clancey said:


> bholler I think you should stop lecturing people and let them decide on these important things on their own with their own knowledge with having the freedom "to decide for themselves and their family"..No one in America should be forced to put a foreign substance in their body with "threats" of a loss lively hood if they do not concur especially with all the "Lying" agendas that we all have been through so please do not put a "guilt trip" on anybody who decides differently than you. Its very unbecoming I think...clancey


Why is it your side is free to lecture tell us we are cowards hiding in our basement etc.  But I am not allowed to express my views or point out what the science says?


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## stoveliker (Feb 18, 2022)

No one is forced. You can refuse. Just like you can refuse to wear glasses - but then are not allowed to drive.

Choices, freedom, and consequences.
Employers can mandate it as a condition of employment.  The only thing that can't happen is the federal government mandating all to get vaccinated (SCOTUS).


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## clancey (Feb 18, 2022)

Because your wrong in my opinion and lets all get on with life .The politics of all of this--Is a mess----and has divided people all across this nation---even in sickness---some countries even have camps to lock up people who refuse to take this vaccine. How about natural immunity do you ever discuss that with your blah blah blah....clancey


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 18, 2022)

Israeli study shows natural immunity delivers 13 times more protection than COVID vaccines
					

CDC study on natural immunity has different conclusion than Israeli study.




					www.clarkcountytoday.com
				




Here is an article discussing the Israel study I mentioned earlier. I’m not saying I believe this or support it.  I’m simply saying we don’t know the science.  The Supreme Court has already said vaccines mandates on individuals is unconstitutional.


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## bholler (Feb 18, 2022)

clancey said:


> Because your wrong in my opinion and lets all get on with life .The politics of all of this--Is a mess----and has divided people all across this nation---even in sickness---some countries even have camps to lock up people who refuse to take this vaccine. How about natural immunity do you ever discuss that with your blah blah blah....clancey


So because you think I am wrong you feel I am not entitled to express my veiws?

And yes I have discussed natural immunity here atleast a few times.  What would you like to discuss about it?


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## bholler (Feb 18, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> Israeli study shows natural immunity delivers 13 times more protection than COVID vaccines
> 
> 
> CDC study on natural immunity has different conclusion than Israeli study.
> ...


Did you go to the link and read the actual study?


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 18, 2022)

Yes I did.


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## bholler (Feb 18, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> Yes I did.


Did it in any way indicate that getting the virus in order to become immune was the best approach?  

And what variant was the study done with?

From what I saw it said natural immunity was a little better than the vaccine but the best immunity comes from both natural immunity and the vaccine.  So no matter what you are better off with the vaccine.  Either you get the vaccine and never get covid and have decent immunity.  Or you get the vaccine then get covid and because you had the vaccine you have far less chance of serious symptoms then you have the best immunity.

The other option is not get the vaccine.  If you get covid your chances of severe symptoms are far greater and you end up with less effective immunity than you would have if you had gotten the vaccine


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## fire_man (Feb 18, 2022)

bholler said:


> Or you get the vaccine then get covid and because you had the vaccine you have far less chance of serious symptoms then you have the best immunity.


^This seems like the best scenario^


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 18, 2022)

bholler said:


> Did it in any way indicate that getting the virus in order to become immune was the best approach?
> 
> And what variant was the study done with?
> 
> ...


I guess we interpret it differently , which explains why we have different feelings about forced vaccinations.   I don’t plan to respond further at this time.   The less  a government tries to control our lives the happier and more prosperous we will be.


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## bholler (Feb 18, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> I guess we interpret it differently , which explains why we have different feelings about forced vaccinations.   I don’t plan to respond further at this time.   The less  a government tries to control our lives the happier and more prosperous we will be.


Again I do not support vaccine mandates from the govt at all as I have said many times before.


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## old greybeard (Feb 18, 2022)

I advise everyone to read RFK JR’s book. I kept a open mind while reading it, and am angry after finishing. Vey good chance that we have been misled by the greed of those we have trusted. The lack of testing of cheap, patent expired viral drugs is disconcerting, and not addressed or allowed  to be debated by our health authorities or social media. 
There is little science behind the path we’ve taken.


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## sprawlnstall (Feb 18, 2022)

Tucker Carlson did a piece on covid. It can be seen here.  Just remember if you don’t like what he says attack his viewpoints and not him as a person.  



https://www.foxnews.com/media/tucker-carlson-proof-biden-lackeys-media-lying-about-covid


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## JamesGuido (Feb 18, 2022)

just my two cents (for what it's worth)

i also belong to a BBQ forum that is privately owned where your real name is used (if you're honest)...
also, no political, religious, sexual and / or Covid talk is allowed. Other topics as well by his discretion... 
Sure sounds censored to me.
However, the site is owned and operated by one man and those are his rules.

It's been around since 1997 and sure, he's dumped a number of folks over the years that threw tantrums & disagree with his rules...
But the rules are rules and the rules are his.

...sometimes it's best to spit with the wind...


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## wishlist (Feb 18, 2022)

clancey said:


> Because your wrong in my opinion and lets all get on with life .The politics of all of this--Is a mess----and has divided people all across this nation---even in sickness---some countries even have camps to lock up people who refuse to take this vaccine. How about natural immunity do you ever discuss that with your blah blah blah....clancey


Tell me how well natural immunity would’ve worked without the vaccine then ?   Right , YOU DON’T KNOW.   Common sense  and science says not very well .   It’s proven the covid vaccine works as it was designed to do .  

I’ve got to ask ……
Where has all this anti vax people been before covid ?   Never heard a peep from anyone about mandated vaccines .     There are state mandates for school ( public and private ) mandates for college students etc…
It’s political unfortunately we all know that . 

 I got vaccinated to hopefully keep others like you Clancey from getting covid .  I don’t agree with you at all but I also hope your not one of the ones that my wife has to take care of in the hospital struggling to do something so easy as taking a breath .   There’s enough unvaccinated patients she’s already trying her best for the last 2 years to help .   Unfortunately many of those didn’t get the chance to go home with their family .


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## woodgeek (Feb 18, 2022)

I just want to point out some facts:

The national meeting of physicists (covering all areas of physics): 10,000 scientists
The national meeting of chemists (covering all areas of chemistry): 10,000 scientists
The national meeting of chemical engineers (covering all areas): 10,000 scientists and engineers
The national meeting of neuroscientists (trying to understand the brain): 50,000 scientists
The national meeting of immunologists: 100,000 scientists and engineers !!

The immune system is VERY COMPLEX.  Given the way science stories are covered by our click-bait obsessed media, trying to explain immune functions and outcomes is HOPELESS.

Did you ever read a journalistic article about something you are an actual expert on?  And then see how shockingly simplistic and/or wrong it was?

That is what covid science coverage has been like for actual scientists for the last two years.  Hopelessly simplistic and/or wrong.

The actual outcomes (in terms of vaccine protection effects) are slightly better than predicted, but the course of the disease is totally  following the historical pattern (like waves, variants and most people 'giving up' after a couple years). The major difference is the reduced death rate this time due to vaccination, which were not made available so rapidly in earlier pandemics.  As far as science is concerned, this one is a big 'win', and follows expectations.


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## woodgeek (Feb 18, 2022)

sprawlnstall said:


> Tucker Carlson did a piece on covid. It can be seen here.  Just remember if you don’t like what he says attack his viewpoints and not him as a person.
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/media/tucker-carlson-proof-biden-lackeys-media-lying-about-covid



I don't care about his 'viewpoints' and think he is intentionally misleading his audience.  Can I say that, or is that attacking him personally?

He personally grew up with a silver spoon, and one of the most elite upbringings imaginable...and now he is a down-home man of the people, complete with a log-cabin set, railing against these mysterious elites?  And getting handsomely paid for his little act.  Sure he's reliable.


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## PaulOinMA (Feb 18, 2022)

National meeting of chemists are small, in part, because we are a cheap group.  Cities didn't want to host the ACS national convention.  We aren't spenders.  Las Vegas wouldn't host the meeting for years.


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## fire_man (Feb 18, 2022)

clancey said:


> Because your wrong in my opinion and lets all get on with life .The politics of all of this--Is a mess----and has divided people all across this nation---even in sickness---some countries even have camps to lock up people who refuse to take this vaccine. How about natural immunity do you ever discuss that with your blah blah blah....clancey


This is from historyofvaccines.org

The “Natural Immunity Is Better Than Vaccine-acquired Immunity” Misconception​Some people argue that the immunity gained from surviving a natural infection provides better protection than that provided by vaccines. While it’s true that natural immunity _lasts_ longer in some cases than vaccine-induced immunity can, the risks of natural _infection _outweigh the risks of immunization for every recommended vaccine.

For example, wild measles infection causes encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) for one in 1,000 infected individuals, and, for every 1,000 reported measles cases, two individuals die. The combination MMR (measles, mumps, and rubella) vaccine, however, results in encephalitis or a severe allergic reaction only once in every _million_ vaccinated individuals, while preventing measles infection. The benefits of vaccine-acquired immunity extraordinarily outweigh the serious risks of natural infection, even in cases where boosters are required to maintain immunity.

Additionally, the Hib _(Haemophilus Influenzae_ type b) and tetanus vaccines actually provide more effective immunity than natural infection.


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## old greybeard (Feb 18, 2022)

wishlist said:


> Tell me how well natural immunity would’ve worked without the vaccine then ?   Right , YOU DON’T KNOW.   Common sense  and science says not very well .   It’s proven the covid vaccine works as it was designed to do .
> 
> I’ve got to ask ……
> Where has all this anti vax people been before covid ?   Never heard a peep from anyone about mandated vaccines .     There are state mandates for school ( public and private ) mandates for college students etc…
> ...


Not much accurate in this post. Have your wife read RFK Jrs book, then please tell us what she thinks. Love to hear it.


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## stoveliker (Feb 18, 2022)

PaulOinMA said:


> National meeting of chemists are small, in part, because we are a cheap group.  Cities didn't want to host the ACS national convention.  We aren't spenders.  Las Vegas wouldn't host the meeting for years.



The same for the APS meeting (my go to March venue). Didn't gamble enough so the cheap hotel rates (ahem, relatively cheap...) made them loose $$. Never been back there...


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## fire_man (Feb 18, 2022)

old greybeard said:


> Not much accurate in this post. Have your wife read RFK Jrs book, then please tell us what she thinks. Love to hear it.


What is inaccurate in the post? Please be more specific.


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## old greybeard (Feb 18, 2022)

fire_man said:


> What is inaccurate in the post? Please be more specific.


Nope. Not debating, sorry. Read the book, even the first 100 pages then we can discuss it. 
Your opinions are valid based on the misinformation you’ve been given by the msm and the medical establishment. Too many people are arguing who haven’t been exposed to other facts. By design.


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## fire_man (Feb 18, 2022)

old greybeard said:


> Nope. Not debating, sorry. Read the book, even the first 100 pages then we can discuss it.
> Your opinions are valid based on the misinformation you’ve been given by the msm and the medical establishment. Too many people are arguing who haven’t been exposed to other facts. By design.


You made the statement there was  not much accurate in this post and you won't even explain? hmmm ok I was not looking for a debate just some clarification. You are not making any sense.


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