# TACO Bumble Bee



## Coal Reaper (Feb 15, 2013)

anybody have any experience with this yet?  with slant fin baseboards, might it be beneficial for one to set this up to regulate a constant return temp (140/150*?) sent back to storage?  the thought is that most of the water in storage would be cycled through only once before needing to be recharged.  i imagine it might be good for stratification?
or would delta T be better?


----------



## bigburner (Feb 16, 2013)

Just started a system this week with 10 of them, N gas con wall hung boilers. Have not set up the delta t function on the injection risers yet. [running CP for now] But, so far, so good.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 17, 2013)

bigburner said:


> Just started a system this week with 10 of them, N gas con wall hung boilers. Have not set up the delta t function on the injection risers yet. [running CP for now] But, so far, so good.


 
I like the 4 possible settings:
CP - Constant Power (Fixed Speed): Allows for 4 fixed circulator speeds.
SP - Setpoint (Variable Speed): Allows for a fixed supply temperature from 65°F to 220°F.
dE - Delta-T, Differential Temperature (Variable Speed): Allows for a fixed system temperature differential (dT) from 5°F to 50°F.

Since when are they available?
Any known problems with them?

Also nice it that it gives you the GPM. So there must be some sort of a flow meter inside the device.
Knowing the flow and the supply/return temp, you can basically calculate your BTU/hr

Is there any interface to the outside to make it a BTU meter?


----------



## Coal Reaper (Feb 17, 2013)

bigburner said:


> Just started a system this week with 10 of them, N gas con wall hung boilers. Have not set up the delta t function on the injection risers yet. [running CP for now] But, so far, so good.





bigburner said:


> Just started a system this week with 10 of them, N gas con wall hung boilers. Have not set up the delta t function on the injection risers yet. [running CP for now] But, so far, so good.


10 wow. Let us know wen u start playing.


----------



## Coal Reaper (Feb 17, 2013)

> Since when are they available?



Idk but pexsupply has them now.


----------



## ewdudley (Feb 17, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> I like the ... possible settings:
> SP - Setpoint (Variable Speed): Allows for a fixed supply temperature from 65°F to 220°F.
> dE - Delta-T, Differential Temperature (Variable Speed): Allows for a fixed system temperature differential (dT) from 5°F to 50°F.


Yet it looks like somehow they failed to consider the possibility of 'cooling mode' where increased speed causes decreased temperature.  

I'd be interested in trying one for boiler return temperature protection to control the injector pump, but unless I've missed something in the documentation there does not exist a mode that could be used for that.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 17, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> Yet it looks like somehow they failed to consider the possibility of 'cooling mode' where increased speed causes decreased temperature.
> 
> I'd be interested in trying one for boiler return temperature protection to control the injector pump, but unless I've missed something in the documentation there does not exist a mode that could be used for that.


 
Yes, boiler return temperature protection came to my mind also. Just the $190 price tag, electrical wiring, .. it adds up.
For my applications I stick with a LK810 valve.

I'm very interested in getting that GPM signal in one or another way.
The most economical priced flow meters (in-line) are around $450. The you need some thermocouples a microprocessor, a display
This would bring the cost for a BTU-meter way down.

Would be nice if they could offer this as an option.
They have everything there.


----------



## avc8130 (Feb 17, 2013)

If you know your supply temp, you can use Delta T to set return temp protection...sort of.


----------



## Bob Rohr (Feb 18, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Yes, boiler return temperature protection came to my mind also. Just the $190 price tag, electrical wiring, .. it adds up.
> For my applications I stick with a LK810 valve.
> 
> I'm very interested in getting that GPM signal in one or another way.
> ...


 

The flowmeters used for solar systems, up to 10 gpm, are fairly accurate and well under 100 bucks.  Add a solar differential controller with heat quanity metering function, most include that.  The control could run one or multiple pumps and vary the speed.  The whole package would be under 300 bucks.  Dual pump control, differential and setpoint, variable speed, and BTU monitoring.


----------



## Karl_northwind (Feb 19, 2013)

Bob Rohr said:


> The flowmeters used for solar systems, up to 10 gpm, are fairly accurate and well under 100 bucks. Add a solar differential controller with heat quanity metering function, most include that. The control could run one or multiple pumps and vary the speed. The whole package would be under 300 bucks. Dual pump control, differential and setpoint, variable speed, and BTU monitoring.


how have the digital flow meters (grundfos I believe) working?  I have one on my drainback system, but have yet to get the $30 cable to connect it to my BX controller.


----------



## Coal Reaper (Feb 20, 2013)

rather than boiler protection, i was thinking of using the constant temp capability of the pump to slow down flow in fin tube and extract all of the "usable" BTU's out of the hot water before it goes back to storage.  is this asinine?


----------



## JP11 (Feb 20, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> rather than boiler protection, i was thinking of using the constant temp capability of the pump to slow down flow in fin tube and extract all of the "usable" BTU's out of the hot water before it goes back to storage. is this asinine?


 

I guess I'm confused about the end game of savings here.  So the goal is to slow down your flow to baseboards.. to extract maximum heat from the water before returning to storage.  So, the only "savings" would be in electricity right?  As the return to storage temp being higher isn't a factor.. the BTUs are in the water, and inside the home.. so nothing being "lost"

The savings being lower electric cost to run the pump slower... correct?

I'd be curious to see how long the payback would be on the increased cost for the pump vs. electric costs.  I guess you could figure it at min current draw vs a standard 007 or something.

JP


----------



## maple1 (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm thinking it's along the lines of being able to slow the flow as your supply temps drop - thereby getting more heat out of the lower temp water than if under constant speed which would return colder water to bottom of storage therefore in turn extending your 'usable' storage capacity. I.e. in a somewhat-similar way that radiant floor heat extends usable storage by being able to use lower temp water.


----------



## Coal Reaper (Feb 20, 2013)

JP11 said:


> I guess I'm confused about the end game of savings here. So the goal is to slow down your flow to baseboards.. to extract maximum heat from the water before returning to storage. So, the only "savings" would be in electricity right? As the return to storage temp being higher isn't a factor.. the BTUs are in the water, and inside the home.. so nothing being "lost"
> 
> The savings being lower electric cost to run the pump slower... correct?
> 
> ...


 
yes, and i feel like you would have a more consistent supply temp for a longer period of time if it is not being cycled as fast.  but does this matter for anything?


----------



## Coal Reaper (Feb 20, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I'm thinking it's along the lines of being able to slow the flow as your supply temps drop - thereby getting more heat out of the lower temp water than if under constant speed which would return colder water to bottom of storage therefore in turn extending your 'usable' storage capacity. I.e. in a somewhat-similar way that radiant floor heat extends usable storage by being able to use lower temp water.


 
my thought was to put the temp sensor on the return line.  this would increase the flow as water temperature dropped in order to maintain the same (constant return temp) BTU transfer to house of higher temp water at lower flow.  this is what i am questioning if it helps extend usable storage capacity.


----------



## JP11 (Feb 20, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> my thought was to put the temp sensor on the return line. this would increase the flow as water temperature dropped in order to maintain the same (constant return temp) BTU transfer to house of higher temp water at lower flow. this is what i am questioning if it helps extend usable storage capacity.


AHA!  I see.. So if you currently had your storage quit supplying heat at 150.. because of poor baseboard performance... or not being able to maintain set temp in the house...

You were hoping that an increased flow speed would overcome the reduced efficiency of baseboard.... and be able to run your storage to lower temps.

My limiting factor is my DHW.. I have it set to 132.  So I can run my storage down to 135.  I guess those with baseboards would be calling it quits at a higher temp.

Only one way to find out..... try it!  

JP


----------



## Coal Reaper (Feb 20, 2013)

EUREKA!
with regaurds to DHW, i am going to have the problem with any pump. my DHW takes priority when it calls for heat. after it is satisfied then the rest of the zones resume. i think if needed bumble bee would just jack up the flow to transfer more BTU's by simply maintaining that set temp point on the return.
i think where BB would really shine is in delta T mode with heat exchangers.


----------



## Coal Reaper (May 29, 2013)

update to an old post....

i am very happy with the BB.  using it to send water from storage in barn to heating loop in house.  using set point mode it takes shy of 2 minutes to clear about 230' of 1-1/4" pex.  runs 42 watts at 16.5gpm until return temp reaches 140* and then it backs off to 9-12 watts to maintain that temp going back to storage at about 5gpm.  only problem is it is a little loud at the higher speed, kind of a whirring noise.  the 007 is silent in comparison.  i have not played around with the delta T mode.  will have to wait til it gets cold again to see if it is capable of moving enough BTUs from storage to effectively heat house.


----------



## BoilerMan (May 29, 2013)

I still LOVE America!  We are mostly free to do what we want, and see the results for ourselves!  Great post CR, thank you for posting your results.

TS


----------



## kuribo (Jun 2, 2013)

I'm still waiting for Taco to update the bumblebee so it has reverse acting capability.....


----------



## Coal Reaper (Jun 14, 2013)

Finally took a pic


----------



## avc8130 (Jun 16, 2013)

Wow, those big ball valves must have been expensive just to drop down to 1" pipe right after. 

What is that green "tee" fitting?  It appears both lines go into it?

ac


----------



## Coal Reaper (Jun 16, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Wow, those big ball valves must have been expensive just to drop down to 1" pipe right after.
> 
> What is that green "tee" fitting? It appears both lines go into it?
> 
> ac


had an abundance of those I have acquired.  still have a few left over.  wanted shortest length of smaller diameter pipe as possible to minimize head.  seems to be doing just fine.
that's a close t fitting.  adds and removes water from the house loop.  the BB and 007 for house only run at the same time.  there is a divider inside to keep the supply water from mixing with the return water before it goes through the system.  http://seek.autodesk.com/product/latest/agg/taco/Taco/TacoTwinTee


----------



## avc8130 (Jun 16, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> had an abundance of those I have acquired. still have a few left over. wanted shortest length of smaller diameter pipe as possible to minimize head. seems to be doing just fine.
> that's a close t fitting. adds and removes water from the house loop. the BB and 007 for house only run at the same time. there is a divider inside to keep the supply water from mixing with the return water before it goes through the system. http://seek.autodesk.com/product/latest/agg/taco/Taco/TacoTwinTee


Nothing cheaper than free!

Cool.  I was wondering if that was what that was.  Very neat and really simplifies the plumbing.

ac


----------



## huffdawg (Oct 17, 2013)

Have you tried the Delta T mode yet.   CR.

Huff


----------



## Coal Reaper (Oct 17, 2013)

no, and i dont know that i will mess with it.  all i am trying to do is send the coolest water back to storage that i can and still be able to satisfy heat damands in the house.  essentially sending return water away after the usable BTUs have been removed.  currently i am sending 100*F water back to storage regardless of supply temp.  BB adjusts it speed to bring the primary loop up to operating temp and then dials back in order to maintain the set point temp.  this is working well right now but i may need to increase set point temp as we enter winter months. 
i did find a blog on tacos website that discusses BB with regards to deltaT that may or may not be of some use.  every post argues why deltaT (specifically the bee) is better than deltaP so take that FWIW.  there is a link at the bottom to the previous and next post.
http://jbblog.flopro.taco-hvac.com/queen-of-hearts/


----------



## ewdudley (Oct 17, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> no, and i dont know that i will mess with it.  all i am trying to do is send the coolest water back to storage that i can and still be able to satisfy heat damands in the house.  essentially sending return water away after the usable BTUs have been removed.  currently i am sending 100*F water back to storage regardless of supply temp.  BB adjusts it speed to bring the primary loop up to operating temp and then dials back in order to maintain the set point temp.  this is working well right now but i may need to increase set point temp as we enter winter months.


As you're seeing already this works nicely for controlling and minimizing return temperature to storage.  Like you say, as conditions change you can adjust the return temperature so it's high enough.



> i did find a blog on tacos website that discusses BB with regards to deltaT that may or may not be of some use.  every post argues why deltaT (specifically the bee) is better than deltaP so take that FWIW.  there is a link at the bottom to the previous and next post.
> http://jbblog.flopro.taco-hvac.com/queen-of-hearts/



As for delta T, that poor Taco guy is all over the map.  Here's an example of his reasoning:



> The Universal Hydronics Formula expresses this analogy mathematically:
> 
> GPM = BTUH ÷ (ΔT × 500)
> 
> BTUH is the heating load, which changes all winter long depending on a whole bunch of factors, including the weather.  GPM is the flow rate required to deliver the BTUH.  That flow rate changes in lock step with the BTUH heating load.  The greater the heating load, the more GPM is needed, and vice-versa.



He says over and over that if the required heat goes from say 40,000 BTU/h to 20,000 BTU/h then just hold deltaT constant and the HEC-2 will adjust flow to give just the right amount of heat.

This would make sense if you put your emitters on your roof, buy they're inside and they see about the same temperature all winter long.  When it gets colder outside the deltaT of the emitters changes very little, so there's very little for the HEC-2 to react to.

So no, flow rate does not "change in lock step with the BTUH heating load".  To model the physical world he needs a lot more than a simple algebraic definition.

Now if you have multiple zones then deltaT would change as zones go active and then go inactive, and then the HEC-2 would flow more for more zones and less for fewer zones, same as a constant head pump.


----------



## Coal Reaper (Oct 17, 2013)

While i agree with you,  my take away was that deltap circs work good. Perhaps too good. Says they overpump in most situations. And that deltat would accont for this and only provide the min flow that is required in order to maintain that deltat. Now i have zero experience with deltat circs, but couldnt somebody that mildly knows what they are doing size it correctly such that it would react very similar to deltat?  Seams to me that they both can perform the same function. I am struggling to see why one is better than the other in different applications for multiple zones.


----------



## ewdudley (Oct 17, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> While i agree with you,  my take away was that deltap circs work good. Perhaps too good. Says they overpump in most situations. And that deltat would accont for this and only provide the min flow that is required in order to maintain that deltat.


Again, he keeps saying that deltaT will go down as outside temperature goes up.  This is true only to the small extent that the emitters will see slightly higher temperatures because it's warmer near the floor, convection flows up past the emitters will be slightly slower, and the warmer walls will absorb less direct radiation.  By and large, if you pump 180 degF water into an emitter sitting in a 70 degF room, the deltaT will not change all that much as outside temperature increases.  Therefore his claim that a deltaT pump will slow down significantly in response to increases in outside air temperature is plain old flim-flam hand-waving.



> Now i have zero experience with deltat circs, but couldnt somebody that mildly knows what they are doing size it correctly such that it would react very similar to deltat?  Seams to me that they both can perform the same function. I am struggling to see why one is better than the other in different applications for multiple zones.


For the situation of needing more flow for more zones and less flow for fewer zones either deltaT or deltaP will both generally tend do the right thing.  DeltaP is simpler and should be preferred for that reason.

But for controlling a temperature according to flow like you're doing with your return to storage temperature control then a temperature controlled ECM pump is just the ticket.


----------



## Coal Reaper (Oct 18, 2013)

Gotchyah


----------

