# E classic 1450 or PM Optimizer 250



## jon 2701 (Sep 8, 2013)

I have been on this forum before and was referred to the PM OPT 250.  I did a little more sizing research and think that the OPT 250 would be too large. My house is 1900 sg ft ranch with radiant and I will be installing two 50k btu modine heaters. One for the garage and one for the basement. The house is new const with great insulation. Garage is attached with great insulation. Basement is the same.  I also heat an indirect 50 gal water heater. Both Modine heaters will be piped into  the oil boiler and a plate exchanger  used for transfer.. I really like the PM but they do not make a smaller unit. The PM has no dealer in NH where as CB is 20 miles away. Let me also add. Please do not refer me to an indoor unit with storage as I do not want it with %110 certainty. No wood indoors Period!.  It seems that the dealer says 1" thermopex is adequate with a 50 plate exchanger. If my boiler was running full output it seems undersized.  I did a little searching here on the 1450 and did  not find much info.  How about real world heating capacity of the unit? I will be burning all hardwood. Any input would be great. Thanks.
I know there is a big debate on pipe, but no one ever mentioned this brand. I know it is a closed cell foam product..

http://www.badgerinsulatedpipe.com/Insulated-Underground-Tubing_c19.htm


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## Floydian (Sep 8, 2013)

Hello Jon,

What is the design heat load of everything you want to heat? How much oil are you burning through a year?
A thorough heat load calculation is a must for making proper heating system decisions. To me it is really important to crunch all these numbers before spending 8-10k on an OWB. Personally I would build a small insulated building for an indoor unit before going with the outdoor variety but that's me. My setup is in the space I am wanting to heat so all standby losses are providing some benefit.

No offense meant here but a house with great insulation should not require a heating system like you are looking at. IMO a 1900 sq ft house with great insulation in NH would not really need more 30 to 40 million btus/winter to be comfortable. That would be 250 to 350 gallons of oil, depending on eff.% or about 2 cords of wood whereas any outdoor wood boiler is likely to have a minimum of 1 cord  worth of standby heat loss per winter, probably more.

I think with some solid heat load numbers the smart folks here can give you some opinions worth considering on the best way to spend your money.

Good luck,

Noah


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## jon 2701 (Sep 8, 2013)

Floydian said:


> Hello Jon,
> 
> What is the design heat load of everything you want to heat? How much oil are you burning through a year?
> A thorough heat load calculation is a must for making proper heating system decisions. To me it is really important to crunch all these numbers before spending 8-10k on an OWB. Personally I would build a small insulated building for an indoor unit before going with the outdoor variety but that's me. My setup is in the space I am wanting to heat so all standby losses are providing some benefit.
> ...


I did a heat loss calc worksheet and it worked up to 39k btu per hour. This does not include the heated attached garage that I will heat with a 50k btu heater nor the basement with a 50 k btu heater  and the indirect hot water. Both  the basement and garage are well insulated and will be kept at 55 degrees. Oil burned per winter is unknown since the house was vacant and there is no record.


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## BoilerMan (Sep 8, 2013)

You do not need to count the indirect in the calculation, unless you have 4+ teenage girls taking back to back 1/2hour showers......  With a heating load of 39K/hour you'll end up with _any _wood boiler indoor or out, idling the majority of the time and will consume much more wood and creosote up, _gasser or not_.  If you have that kind of heating load and want to burn wood in a boiler, storage somewhere (garage, basement) is a must IMHO. 

You are 110% against having wood in the house, so have in the garage (boiler and storage) instead.  You will not find much love on here for OWB  

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/best-owb-video-i-have-ever-seen.113364/

TS


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## maple1 (Sep 9, 2013)

Not wanting wood in the house is no reason to rule out an indoor boiler & storage. You can put it (boiler) in its own space (shed, partioned off garage space..), and put the storage either with it or in the basement (I'd put in basment). After living in both worlds, I would never again have a wood boiler of any kind without storage inside my house.


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## jon 2701 (Sep 9, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Not wanting wood in the house is no reason to rule out an indoor boiler & storage. You can put it (boiler) in its own space (shed, partioned off garage space..), and put the storage either with it or in the basement (I'd put in basment). After living in both worlds, I would never again have a wood boiler of any kind without storage inside my house.


 How much would is wasted idling ?  A previous post said one cord. If so that is nothing. I have 200 acres of hardwood available. The OWB is a much simpler less complicated install taking up a lot less space not involving a whole other bldg. I truly appreciate the idea of the indoor boiler and think it is a better idea. I would like to keep this as simple and compact as possible.  My only concern is what kind of longevity can I expect from the OWB? I am super meticulous when it comes to maintenance. I do not miss a thing. I understand fully the indoor unit is pressurized which gives it the longevity. If I can an OWB to last 25 years I would be very happy. The CB e1400 is only 9k. Probably less than an indoor unit with storage. Real world longevity is my only concern.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 9, 2013)

jon 2701:
There is a dealer for PM in NH he is outside of Concord. PM web site to get his contact.

I would take a hard look @ the new Garn jr. if you are looking for simplicity. others will jump in soon.


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## Coal Reaper (Sep 9, 2013)

perhaps 1 cord idling (likely more), but many more cords due to less efficiency.  this was recently posted in another thread.  a gasser would have burned up all this wood gas and sent the heat to your water.


dont forget the cost and complexity of heat exchanger when weighing options.  and idk any OWB to last 25 years, what i hear is more like 10yrs...


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## maple1 (Sep 9, 2013)

A friend of mine had to replace his Wood Doctor after 4 years - it turned itself into an Extra-Large lawn sprinkler.

There are guys around that have had OWBs for longer than that though - but I will need to plead ignorance on them.


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## heaterman (Sep 9, 2013)

jon 2701 said:


> How much would is wasted idling ?  A previous post said one cord. If so that is nothing. I have 200 acres of hardwood available. The OWB is a much simpler less complicated install taking up a lot less space not involving a whole other bldg. I truly appreciate the idea of the indoor boiler and think it is a better idea. I would like to keep this as simple and compact as possible.  My only concern is what kind of longevity can I expect from the OWB? I am super meticulous when it comes to maintenance. I do not miss a thing. I understand fully the indoor unit is pressurized which gives it the longevity. If I can an OWB to last 25 years I would be very happy. The CB e1400 is only 9k. Probably less than an indoor unit with storage. Real world longevity is my only concern.



_How much wood wasted in idling?   _I have measured the standby loss alone on 2 different units under actual filed conditions, one with foam insulation one with fiberglass. Both of them were loosing over 5,000btu per hour just from the jacket. Add losses from the underground line and out the stack and you are usually looking at 7,000 conservatively. That's 168,000btu per day or the equivalent of at least one full cord of wood about every three months figuring 20,000,000 btu per cord.
That figure does not reflect the actual combustion efficiency of the unit, just the jacket losses. Regardless of losses from idling, that alone should give an intelligent person cause to stop and consider what he is getting into when placing a piece of heating equipment out in the yard.

Longevity?  I have dealt with a couple insurance companies on several failure claims for OWB's. (Did you know that some home owners policies will cover heating equipment?)
The representatives from both companies told me that their statistics show the average life of an OWB, regardless of brand, is between 7-9 years. Some less, some more if given extreme maintenance. You will not get 25 years from any OWB.
I would absolutely not anticipate or plan on more than 10 years of life. Two of my brothers have OWB's that are 9 and 11 years old respectively. Both have had numerous repairs, including welding up holes in the firebox and outside water jacket and they maintain the water chemistry religiously. They are both going to try to get one more winter out of them to use up the wood they have cut and then switch to a pellet boiler.


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## jon 2701 (Sep 9, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> jon 2701:
> There is a dealer for PM in NH he is outside of Concord. PM web site to get his contact.
> 
> I would take a hard look @ the new Garn jr. if you are looking for simplicity. others will jump in soon.





Coal Reaper said:


> perhaps 1 cord idling (likely more), but many more cords due to less efficiency.  this was recently posted in another thread.  a gasser would have burned up all this wood gas and sent the heat to your water.
> 
> 
> dont forget the cost and complexity of heat exchanger when weighing options.  and idk any OWB to last 25 years, what i hear is more like 10yrs...





heaterman said:


> _How much wood wasted in idling?   _I have measured the standby loss alone on 2 different units under actual filed conditions, one with foam insulation one with fiberglass. Both of them were loosing over 5,000btu per hour just from the jacket. Add losses from the underground line and out the stack and you are usually looking at 7,000 conservatively. That's 168,000btu per day or the equivalent of at least one full cord of wood per week figuring 20,000,000 btu per cord.
> That figure does not reflect the actual combustion efficiency of the unit, just the jacket losses. Regardless of losses from idling, that alone should give an intelligent person cause to stop and consider what he is getting into when placing a piece of heating equipment out in the yard.
> 
> Longevity?  I have dealt with a couple insurance companies on several failure claims for OWB's. (Did you know that some home owners policies will cover heating equipment?)
> ...


Let me get this straight. If I burn Sept 1 to May1  (32 weeks) . I will waste 32 cords of wood in standby. Then whatever I use for heat. That sounds impossible. I know two people personally that burn the CB classic 6048  form sept to may and heat 2500 sg ft with hot  water and burn 9 cords per year. Not even close to your estimation. Unless I am missing what you are telling me.


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## heaterman (Sep 9, 2013)

Jon

Let me clarify that for you a little if I can.
Assume an OWB holding 150 gallons of water. The heat lost out of that 150 gallons by dropping the temp only 1 degree equals 1,249 btu's. That's a fact of physics. If you drop it 5* that comes out to 6,245btu's.
Those numbers are set in stone and do not vary.

The _two major variables that my example does not take into consideration _are the outside temperature and the actual water temperature. Both of which influence the actual "standby" heat lost from the boiler to a very large degree. (Heat loss is never a constant)

Dropping the water temperature in the boiler from 180* to 150* reduces the heat lost just as working with an outside temp of 60* in September vs -15* in January or February will do also. The greater the T, the greater the heat lost to the wide open spaces.
The numbers I measured were taken on a below 0 day (colder than a well diggers butt as we say around here) and the boiler water temp setpoint was 175 with a 5* differential. They are accurate and if those conditions held true for an entire week you would indeed see that kind of wood consumption *with those particular boilers*.

Bottom line is that standby heat loss on an OWB is significant and should be factored into your equation of how much wood you will go through. Exactly how much encompasses more variables than I would care to calculate without getting paid for my time.


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## maple1 (Sep 9, 2013)

Think there's a bit of muddle up with your figures two posts up.

20,000,000 btu/cord at 168,000 btu/day would equal 1 cord in 119 days, not one week.


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## ewdudley (Sep 9, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Jon
> 
> Let me clarify that for you a little if I can.
> 
> Bottom line is that standby heat loss on an OWB is significant and should be factored into your equation of how much wood you will go through. Exactly how much encompasses more variables than I would care to calculate without getting paid for my time.



No, bottom line is your math is off by a factor of 17 and you can't be bothered to read you own post and get the arithmetic straight.


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## heaterman (Sep 9, 2013)

Good grief! I just went back and read through my first post.
Apologies offered for the math.
I should know better than to attempt writing a parts order while doodling on Hearth....Maybe better go back and double check that too before I wind up with 600 pumps or something like that......

I have no idea what I did there but it's fixed now.


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## jon 2701 (Sep 10, 2013)

I definitely appreciate the benefits of more water storage. The  extra two cords of wood I will waste with the CB E1450 is not a big concern of mine. Why is the longevity of the CB product  shorter than the Garn junior being that they are both non pressure units? If so and why is that? Is it the steel quality or is it the design that will give the CB a shorter life? Thanks


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 10, 2013)

Why waste the wood? If you have it cool, but still better to not burn it. you can put up extra wood and sell it dry and offset your heating costs. $250 - $330 a cord.
Ok- CB and Garn are two different style units.
my point is that with the EPA OWB you are approaching the cost of a much more efficient boiler. Take your total costs and divide by anticipated longevity the math is a big deciding factor.
in ten years you burn 2 extra cords = 20 extra cords x $290(avg) = $ 5800 total waste
The other Factor is the environmental impact and the laws written for them. I assume you are in NH so look at setback requirements. less wood = less smoke = less impact


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## leon (Sep 10, 2013)

I have had the same indoor wood and coal boiler for 31 years now so that speaks to thier longevity.

The other thing is that it is pressurised as well and filled half full of firebrick to increase the ability of the
boiler to become a heat sink.

The gentleman with the wood doctor video is hilarious and as I have said before if people filled
these bloody things half full or more with full fire brick they would see their wood use drop way off once
the heating season starts and the fireboxes will last so much longer as the firebrick comes between the fire and the boiler.

If you do anything purchase a Harman SF360 and storage and put it in an insulated shed or an
addition to your garage.


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## jon 2701 (Sep 10, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Why waste the wood? If you have it cool, but still better to not burn it. you can put up extra wood and sell it dry and offset your heating costs. $250 - $330 a cord.
> Ok- CB and Garn are two different style units.
> my point is that with the EPA OWB you are approaching the cost of a much more efficient boiler. Take your total costs and divide by anticipated longevity the math is a big deciding factor.
> in ten years you burn 2 extra cords = 20 extra cords x $290(avg) = $ 5800 total waste
> The other Factor is the environmental impact and the laws written for them. I assume you are in NH so look at setback requirements. less wood = less smoke = less impact


 Setback and wood consumption is not an issue. I have 200 acres. Smoke with the new CB gasifiers from what I have seen is non existent. My question is with the Garn Vs the CB. They are both non pressurized open systems. So how does the Garn get its longevity or is it equal?


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 10, 2013)

Well- non existent would be tough with any unit.

I would ask your CB dealer for a list of users in your area and you could visit and see the units in operation. I believe most of the NH state sheds are running E-classics you should get candid response from them.

I do not know how old the oldest garn is or the life expectancy of their units. But I bet 20-30 years with proper treatment. others may have real info I am speculating on that.

Resale value is most certainly higher on the Garn based on the asking prices I see here and Craigslist for Wood boilers. again I do not know actual sale prices of the sold units.

I would give Garn a call and talk the rep in your area. I would also call a few of the other manufactures before ruling out an indoor gasser with storage. Lots of options for Storage and plumbing.

IMHO- the difference in longevity is based on the design. Garn is a batch burn and the CB is not. therefore the CB will idle when not calling for heat. And this would apply to other brands as well that do not idle. 

If you are in NH  you are welcome to PM me and I can give you contact info for CB, Garn, Froling, P&M,Vigas


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## flyingcow (Sep 10, 2013)

E-classic's are not the same animal as a 6048. My neighbor has an E-Classic, i can see the smoke from 1000ft away. A good friend across town has a 6048, it rolls some serious smoke when it's cooking. If I had to choose between the two i would take the 6048. But i didn't, my 7$k indoor unit located next door in an unattached building, works very well for me. Wood is not in the house. i do have storage, but not all indoor gassers require it. IMO, storage helps with efficiency, but is more beneficial for convenience.

Also, i just had these installed in my househttp://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/en/consumer/lifestyle-benefits/energy-efficient

Works extremely well for heat or A/C.


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## henfruit (Sep 10, 2013)

Ne wood , Dont forget the Vigas


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## jon 2701 (Sep 10, 2013)

[quote="NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Well- non existent would be tough with any unit.
> 
> I would ask your CB dealer for a list of users in your area and you could visit and see the units in operation. I believe most of the NH state sheds are running E-classics you should get candid response from them.
> 
> ...


 
I spoke with PM and their unit is way too large. I spoke with Garn and it looks interesting but I would rather burn two extra cord of  wood a year than have to build an entire structure around it. I already spoke to CB. Vigas and Frolling I have not spoke with. These two would also require another outdoor structure to utilize them. I am not willing to put anything inside my home . I heated with indoor wood for years and I despise the dirt and dust indoors.


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## Fred61 (Sep 10, 2013)

Even if you had 1000 acres of firewood, burning less is better for the environment. I don't know how old you are nor how many years you plan on burning wood and up to what age. If you are on your own and in your mid seventies with compromised health without the help of family, processing a cord of wood is a major undertaking. I burn three cords of wood per season and that is about all I want to do. It takes me more than twice as long and a lot more perspiration to process and stack my wood than it did 20 years ago.

I suggest you take some time to make your decision after listening to the experienced contributors here. You are not the first person to ask the opinions of the experts here after having made up your mind what you are going to install. Heck, some have already purchased their boiler before asking for opinions.


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## hobbyheater (Sep 10, 2013)

I have had the opportunity to operate and observe the wood consumption of a pre gasification indoor wood boiler without and with storage .  Without storage it would burn 16 cords per year and when 1,000 gallons of storage was added it burned 10 cords per year, standby loss is huge.This boiler was not grossly over sized at 90,000 gross btu's per hour . 
The Jetstream  with the same storage and load burns 4 1/2 cords per year !


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## jon 2701 (Sep 10, 2013)

hobbyheater said:


> I have had the opportunity to operate and observe the wood consumption of a pre gasification indoor wood boiler without and with storage .  Without storage it would burn 16 cords per year and when 1,000 gallons of storage was added it burned 10 cords per year, standby loss is huge.This boiler was not grossly over sized at 90,000 gross btu's per hour .
> The Jetstream  with the same storage and load burns 4 1/2 cords per year !


Can you add storage to a CB e classic down the road if wanted. Maybe in a few years I will add a structure with a tank. Is this a practical option?


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## hobbyheater (Sep 10, 2013)

jon 2701 said:


> Can you add storage to a CB e classic down the road if wanted. Maybe in a few years I will add a structure with a tank. Is this a practical option?



Storage can always be added later.  Operating a boiler without storage and then adding storage is a real eye opener.  There is a Portage & Main 250 optimizer here locally that runs without storage that heats a smaller, more energy efficient home than ours.  It burns twice as much wood.  Its  burn cycles are never long enough to truly get to gasification mode.  It smolders most of the time.  I have never seen a CB e classic but unless it has enough of a load to give it some long burn cycles,  it will not be that efficient.  But running the e classic without storage for several years will save on conventional heating costs that can go towards the cost of storage.   
My observation of the above Portage &  Main and its need for storage makes the Garn Junior very attractive cost wise ,  it is simple ,efficient  , and already has storage !


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## hobbyheater (Sep 10, 2013)

If it is your plan to add storage down the road , plan your plumbing to incorporate it .


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## jon 2701 (Sep 10, 2013)

hobbyheater said:


> If it is your plan to add storage down the road , plan your plumbing to incorporate it .


 What would have to be added now? My guess is just another line underground from the boiler to where I would install the tank. How does the tank work?. Is the boiler water just pumped into the holding tank and then forced out through a  return port to complete the loop. This seems  like the best option for me now. Wood out of the house now and future storage for efficiency. Any advice as to how to do this setup now would be great.


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## heaterman (Sep 10, 2013)

hobbyheater said:


> Storage can always be added later.  Operating a boiler without storage and then adding storage is a real eye opener.  There is a Portage & Main 250 optimizer here locally that runs without storage that heats a smaller, more energy efficient home than ours.  It burns twice as much wood. * Its  burn cycles are never long enough to truly get to gasification mode.*  It smolders most of the time.  I have never seen a CB e classic but unless it has enough of a load to give it some long burn cycles,  it will not be that efficient.  But running the e classic without storage for several years will save on conventional heating costs that can go towards the cost of storage.
> My observation of the above Portage &  Main and its need for storage makes the Garn Junior very attractive cost wise ,  it is simple ,efficient  , and already has storage !




This post pretty much sums it up. Pay attention to what you are being told here. 

The price of the E-Classic + storage will not be very different from the Garn Jr recommended by Allan. He is hitting the nail on the head.
From what I have seen of the E-Classic and other outdoor gasification "boilers" it takes at least 10-15 minutes before they reach gasification temps. They foul up with creosote quite frequently because they never get to the needed combustion temperatures.
You would be better off with a standard non gasification boiler rather than one that is intended to do so but cannot because burn cycles are not long enough.


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## jon 2701 (Sep 10, 2013)

heaterman said:


> This post pretty much sums it up. Pay attention to what you are being told here.
> 
> The price of the E-Classic + storage will not be very different from the Garn Jr recommended by Allan. He is hitting the nail on the head.
> From what I have seen of the E-Classic and other outdoor gasification "boilers" it takes at least 10-15 minutes before they reach gasification temps. They foul up with creosote quite frequently because they never get to the needed combustion temperatures.
> You would be better off with a standard non gasification boiler rather than one that is intended to do so but cannot because burn cycles are not long enough.


 The garn is not an option now because I keep saying the additional structure now is not an option. My best option now is  to get the wood out of the house and save money is the OWB. If I can expand it later with storage then I would have the best of both worlds. A Gasser OWB is required In NH. Any advice as to what I would need to do now to setup for future storage when I install the OWB. The cost of a storage tank down the road could be free since my brother has access to old giant propane tanks


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## maple1 (Sep 10, 2013)

If at all possible, put the storage tanks in your house. Any heat lost from them will stay within the building envelope.  Plus they make great radiators if you don't insulate them tightly. Don't know what your basement situation is, but tanks can be sized & configured to fit all kinds of different spaces. The wood mess will still be outside with the boiler.


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## hobbyheater (Sep 10, 2013)

jon 2701 said:


> What would have to be added now? My guess is just another line underground from the boiler to where I would install the tank. How does the tank work?.  Any advice as to how to do this setup now would be great.



When you first enter the boiler room forum , there is a list of threads   . " Simplest Pressurized Storage System Design" " Underground Lines- not the place to skimp "  good reading .


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## hobbyheater (Sep 11, 2013)

[quote="jon 2701, post: 1514297, member: 27227"  How does the tank work?. [/quote]

I'm guessing that the  e-classic is unpressurized ?


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## jon 2701 (Sep 11, 2013)

hobbyheater said:


> [quote="jon 2701, post: 1514297, member: 27227"  How does the tank work?.


 
I'm guessing that the  e-classic is unpressurized ?[/quote]
 The E classic is unpressurized like the Garn.


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## jon 2701 (Sep 11, 2013)

hobbyheater said:


> When you first enter the boiler room forum , there is a list of threads   . " Simplest Pressurized Storage System Design" " Underground Lines- not the place to skimp "  good reading .


I did some reading and cannot find any thing on this brand of pipe. http://www.badgerinsulatedpipe.com/Insulated-Underground-Tubing_c19.htm It is a closed cell product and an r value of R55. Not sure if this is considered skimping. Specs and design look good. Any users out there?  8.75 per foot incls shipping for  1 1/4" O2 pex five wrap. I know O2 is not needed.


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## mikefrommaine (Sep 11, 2013)

Jon, you are about to make some very expensive mistakes. (that will be compounded if you buy that pipe)



Go buy a storage shed. Pick up one or two of those free propane tanks. Buy an indoor gasser. There are a few in the 5k range (or less) that will out perform any OWB.  Download a diagram (the TARM Biomass ones work great) And take a few weeks to understand how they work. You can be up and running by new years...


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## Floydian (Sep 11, 2013)

R55! NO way, period. Bogus LowE, radiant barrier marketing scam.

To quote the guy in the hilarious OWB video:"Don't buy this $hit".


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## arbutus (Sep 11, 2013)

Jon,

Check the underground piping sticky at the top of the page.

The 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 ... wrap stuff may work for a time, but it most likely will get water in it, and that will remove its insulating value. You will then have a snow free patch on the ground with green grass in February.  For a little more you can have closed cell foam, or possibly about the same, spray foam the trench.

I haven't owned that stuff, but I have seen it installed, and after a short time it is full of water.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 11, 2013)

henfruit said:


> Ne wood , Dont forget the Vigas


 ah yes and the Vigas. My apologies.
 I believe jon2701 is in NH so yes there is a Vigas rep contact I have too. He has some interesting storage options also.

I have been researching for 3 years and the products just keep getting better for the residential market. My plan is to build a larger barn for hobbies as I age so my larger heating needs are not immediate.

I agree with the additional cost of the structure, but I think you will find it will pay off in the not so long run.


8x20 storage container is $2500-3000 delivered on site. some are even insulated. (8x 40 is close to same price)
good underground pipe ~$14 a foot
consider a few radiant panels for your heat transfer.

Water thermal storage is not a new concept. the cost of the storage was a limiting factor in the past. this site has many ideas to solve that.

I would suggest sketch up your layout of your home or pics. And post to this thread and see if you get suggestion as to a route to go.

You could build a complete system just from the classifieds on this site. and be under $10,000


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## maple1 (Sep 11, 2013)

I just now looked at the badger link you posted.

Do not get that stuff - you will be very sorry.


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## jon 2701 (Sep 11, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I just now looked at the badger link you posted.
> 
> Do not get that stuff - you will be very sorry.


 Got it. I will avoid the pipe.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 11, 2013)

jon 2701 said:


> My best option now is to get the wood out of the house and save money is the OWB


 
This statement has me baffled. there is no savings that I can see with this option. But does get the wood out of the house.

Your house is 1900 S.F. ?

E1450 my neighbor has heats well over that I bet he is in the 3800 S.F. range. I could check with him regarding his wood usage.


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## jon 2701 (Sep 11, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> This statement has me baffled. there is no savings that I can see with this option. But does get the wood out of the house.
> 
> Your house is 1900 S.F. ?
> 
> E1450 my neighbor has heats well over that I bet he is in the 3800 S.F. range. I could check with him regarding his wood usage.


Allright, forget the OWB. I have been abused enough. LOL I just spoke with Patrick at Vigas. I think I am going to wait and go that route. After all the advice here I really do not have any other choice. Just curious on your friends wood usage on the 1450


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 11, 2013)

I will check on the usage of the E1450.
I do know he buys two truck loads a year 16-18 cords. But he maybe getting ahead.

cord wood prices are climbing. as the demand for low grade wood increases.

I would look into managing your 200 acres for sustainability if you haven't already.

With the right system set up you may also be able to offset your heating costs with some select cutting. and still have wood for your future use. and have your cordwood pulled to the landing for a few years.

Lots of great experienced advice on this site.

I would guess if your 20 miles from CB dealer that I'm nearby.


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## heaterman (Sep 11, 2013)

Jon, what the guys here are telling you is absolutely correct. Spending a little money in order to do something "right now", in a semi emergency frame of mind is a recipe for disaster when it comes to burning wood. 
There are no shortcuts to a system that will give you the service and performance you are expecting. 

Most of what you hear from the sales people in the OWB market is not true. Especially when it comes to the performance of an OWB and as you saw above, the underground pipe. There are a lot of guys here who believed the hype and paid the price by having to spend all the money again to do it right. They are telling you the truth.

If you don't have the shekels to do it this winter, I would sure advise you to wait until you do. Otherwise you will wind up throwing good money after bad. 

We are bashing on you. In fact we love you and want to help.


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## jon 2701 (Sep 11, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Jon, what the guys here are telling you is absolutely correct. Spending a little money in order to do something "right now", in a semi emergency frame of mind is a recipe for disaster when it comes to burning wood.
> There are no shortcuts to a system that will give you the service and performance you are expecting.
> 
> Most of what you hear from the sales people in the OWB market is not true. Especially when it comes to the performance of an OWB and as you saw above, the underground pipe. There are a lot of guys here who believed the hype and paid the price by having to spend all the money again to do it right. They are telling you the truth.
> ...


 I have Patrick from Vigas coming over in a few minutes to take a look


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## maple1 (Sep 11, 2013)

We're kind of beating things over now on this thread - but not knowing your previous experience with burning wood & the bad indoor mess thing, that situation might not be as bad as you're thinking with a more modern unit & likely decreased wood consumption from increased efficiency. I have my boiler in the basement, and in another month or two, all my winters wood will be down there with it. I don't find it very messy at all - I just spend a few moments sweeping every few days, and in the fire it goes. I have a small electric splitter down there with it for fire starting help. All my fire starting stuff stays nice & dry - as does the firewood. Some also put smoke spillage into the messy category - but I have none with the new unit. The bit of sweeping does not come close to outweighing having everything inside so all & any heat losses are within the building envelope (except for what makes it up the chimney), and I or other family don't have to bundle up & go outside all winter to feed the fire. I like being able to maintain the heat in robe or shorts if that's what I happen to be in at the time.

I do also understand, however, that inside is not for everyone with everyones situation, priorities & preferences. My tune might be a bit different if I didn't have a decent basement entry that I can use to wheel all my wood through - but messiness itself doesn't change the tune any.


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## maple1 (Sep 11, 2013)

jon 2701 said:


> I have Patrick from Vigas coming over in a few minutes to take a look


 
Dang, that should help - I only wish I was that close to decent real-person advise when I was contemplating mine. Although things did turn out OK with me on my own, thankfully...


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## nrcrash (Sep 11, 2013)

jon 2701 said:


> I have Patrick from Vigas coming over in a few minutes to take a look


Can't go wrong with Patrick and AHONA.  Your going down the right path....


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## mikefrommaine (Sep 11, 2013)

Looks like we talked one off the ledge.

It's an uphill battle...
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=243932


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 12, 2013)

jon 2701 said:


> I have Patrick from Vigas coming over in a few minutes to take a look


 

So how was your visit with Patrick?


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## jon 2701 (Sep 12, 2013)

He was great. Excellent ideas and extremely helpful with locating it in the right spot. Glad I found this site.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 12, 2013)

Glad it worked out for you.

This site is very helpful!

If you bought the set up? don't forgot to take pictures of the install


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## JP11 (Sep 12, 2013)

Glad to see the crisis averted.  

I'd encourage you to start cutting and SPLITTING your wood.  The next thing we need to convince you of is that DRY wood burns better.  Dry is a scientific discussion, likely not what your grandpappy did with his firewood.

I cut and split for almost a year before my boiler was installed.  I STILL was burning marginal wood that first year.

JP


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## goosegunner (Sep 12, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Looks like we talked one off the ledge.
> 
> It's an uphill battle...
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=243932





How about this guy from post #6......at the arboristsite thread

"I totally agree with better oversize than undersize but I never have bought into the water storage idea or the firebrick."


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## mikefrommaine (Sep 12, 2013)

goosegunner said:


> How about this guy from post #6......at the arboristsite thread
> 
> "I totally agree with better oversize than undersize but I never have bought into the water storage idea or the firebrick."


I was going to ask him if he believed in gravity...


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 12, 2013)

goosegunner said:


> "I totally agree with better oversize than undersize but I never have bought into the water storage idea or the firebrick."


 
water storage idea: for an outside wood boiler scenario 1:if burned continuously- burn more wood and feed more, idle more once brought to temp scenario 2: batch burn to storage: need antifreeze for boiler or have significant heat loss from unit.

Firebrick: keeps you from stuffing an oversized unit too full and retains heat for relight of coals

But regardless if you do not already have one there are much better systems available.

The major game changer IMHO is the method of continuous burn time or the batch burning method.


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## BoilerMan (Sep 12, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> The major game changer IMHO is the method of continuous burn time or the batch burning method.


 
THATS IT!  It's like when some people are all in love with a certain brand of tool or vehicle, and never tried out anything comparable from another brand.  Like an Escort and a 3500HD.  Or the guy at the jobsite who swears by DeWalt tools but has never operated another brand that is Lithium Ion. 

Sometimes people refuse to see the light and think everyone burns 10 cord/year if the _actually_ heat with wood.

TS


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## jon 2701 (Mar 10, 2014)

I know this is an old thread but I figured I should give an update since everyone here gave me great advice. I installed the Vigas 25 with the American Solartechnics 550 modular tank on the advice from Patrick at Vigasboilers.com. I could not be happier. I have not burned a drop of oil since installation back in the first week of Dec. Patrick was extremely helpful with the planning and layout. Any questions I had  were answered quickly and any problems I had were dealt with immediately.  The boiler runs fantastic. I Installed the boiler just inside my basement entrance and piped the boiler over to the tank in the boiler room.. It is real nice that I do not have to go outside to fill the boiler when it is -12 in the am.  Best advice here was to go indoor vs the outdoor route. All the residual heat from the boiler heats my basement which would of been lost to the outside.  Thanks again


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Mar 10, 2014)

Thanks, for the update. Glad it worked out well for you. Now if we had pictures we could really believe


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## Coal Reaper (Mar 10, 2014)

good on yah!


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## maple1 (Mar 10, 2014)

Awesome!


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## jon 2701 (Mar 10, 2014)

I need to shine it up a bit to get it ready for the pictures!


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## JP11 (Mar 10, 2014)

jon 2701 said:


> I need to shine it up a bit to get it ready for the pictures!


Yeah.. you're not allowed to let the dust build up on it till the second or third season.


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