# Humidifier placement



## weezer4117

Just bought a new humidifier that says it will take care of 2,000 sq. ft. My house gets so dry it is hard to breath esp at night. My kitchen, dining room, living room, and rec room are all open to each other with the stove in the living room. The stove is placed in the middle of the house. All four bedrooms are down a hall way on the other end of the house. Where are you guys putting your humidifiers? In the same room as the stove? My Buck 74 uses a blower. Seems like a bad idea to put the two in the same room since they work against each other. What are you guys doing????


----------



## Malatu

You can put a humidifier just about anywhere in your house.  Unlike trying to move heat around, moisture in the air finds it's way though your house very easily (as long as room doors are open).


----------



## TradEddie

The science geek in me has to interrupt here. Stoves do not dry out air, nothing about a stove can remove moisture from the air, so the stove and humidifier are not working against each other. Yet it is true that stoves result in dry air, how?  First, hot air holds much more moisture than cold air, so air at 80F has much lower %RH than the same air at 70F, but no water has actually been removed.  Secondly, cold outside air holds very little moisture, so unless you have an OAK, you are continuously drawing in very dry air from outside.
Your humidifier will likely work best if you place it in the warmest room since the warm air can take up more moisture, also the convection currents you are generating with the stove should carry the moisture around the home better.  It's hard to efficiently humidify a whole house, so on the other hand you may be better off putting a humidifier in or near the bedrooms, if that's where you need it most.

TE

TE


----------



## Malatu

I concur.  During the winter, your inside temperature and humidity are inversely related.  In other words, assuming the outside temperature is fixed, the more you raise the temperature inside, you will naturally lower the humidity inside, regardless of the method you are using to raise the temperature.  There really is no such thing as dry heat.

I respectfully disagree regarding the location of a humidifier.  I have portable humidifier that puts out a couple of gallons of water per 24 hours.  It's on my first floor and I closely monitor the humidity levels through-out the house.  The humidity variance throughout the house, for the most part, is non existent.  The humidity falls well within an acceptable range throughout the house.

Here is a link that offers suggestions of acceptable indoor humidity in conjunction with outdoor temperatures.

http://www.improvinghome.com/content/correct-humidity-level


----------



## jharkin

TradEddie said:


> unless you have an OAK, you are continuously drawing in very dry air from outside.


 
A typical EPA stove draws around 30 CFM of airflow.  All but the most airtight super insulated houses leak many times that much air just from natural convection. 

If you house is so tight you need an OAK to draft acceptably, you probably also need an HRV to bring in sufficient ventilation air.  So no matter what you are binging in dry outside air.


----------



## Malatu

jharkin said:


> A typical EPA stove draws around 30 CFM of airflow. All but the most airtight super insulated houses leak many times that much air just from natural convection.
> 
> If you house is so tight you need an OAK to draft acceptably, you probably also need an HRV to bring in sufficient ventilation air. So no matter what you are binging in dry outside air.


 
You are not bringing in dry air from the outside, you are simply bringing in, relatively speaking, cold air.   If you measure the humidity of the outside air when it's 15 degrees, you might be surprised at how high the humidity would be.   But when you raise the temp of that same air to 75 degrees, you greatly lower the relative humidity of that  same air (that contains the same column of water). 

Again, it's a function of the how much you raise or lower the temperature of the air inside your home compared to the fixed (at any given moment) outside temps and humidity of the outside air.  It's all relative (I assume that's whey they call it "relative humidity").

The same holds true if you cool air.  The relative humidity of that same air will increase.


----------



## Waulie

Not to get too off track.  But, I previously had a convective stove with a blower and now have a big radiant rock of a stove.  I have noticed that the air seems much less dry since switching stoves.  I have a bit of a science background myself, but have no idea why this would be the case.  I haven't even broken out the humidifier yet.

We always put ours in the "stove room", but our house is very open.  I would put that big humidifier where ever it fits well in your big open area.  If you find you need more moisture, get those little ones and place in the bedrooms to only run at night.


----------



## jharkin

Malatu said:


> You are not bringing in dry air from the outside, you are simply bringing in, relatively speaking, cold air. If you measure the humidity of the outside air when it's 15 degrees, you might be surprised at how high the humidity would be. But when you raise the temp of that same air to 75 degrees, you greatly lower the relative humidity of that same air (that contains the same column of water).
> 
> Again, it's a function of the how much you raise or lower the temperature of the air inside your home compared to the fixed (at any given moment) outside temps and humidity of the outside air. It's all relative (I assume that's whey they call it "relative humidity").
> 
> The same holds true if you cool air. The relative humidity of that same air will increase.


 
Uhh..  I think we are saying the same thing but arguing over semantics.  The 15 degree outside air may have high relative humidity but low absolute humidity - so just as you stated, when you raise it to 75F the relative humidity will be low.

So you have to add moisture.

So I think we are all in agreement.


----------



## chvymn99

My head hurts after reading this....  So in Layman's terms what did you all argue on but agree on?


----------



## Malatu

Who's arguing?  Sorry if I came off as such.That was not my intent.  Yes,  I agree. it is semantics.


----------



## Malatu

Waulie said:


> Not to get too off track. But, I previously had a convective stove with a blower and now have a big radiant rock of a stove. I have noticed that the air seems much less dry since switching stoves. I have a bit of a science background myself, but have no idea why this would be the case. I haven't even broken out the humidifier yet.
> 
> We always put ours in the "stove room", but our house is very open. I would put that big humidifier where ever it fits well in your big open area. If you find you need more moisture, get those little ones and place in the bedrooms to only run at night.


 
Was the convection stove generating more heat thus raising the temperature more than the radian stove? If so, it would make the air dryer. It is not about stoves! Its' about how much you raise the air temperature.

Do this exercise. Take a regular sheet of paper and fold in half 4 times. Now take pencil and color in exactly 50% of the sheet of paper. Ok, one side of the piece of paper you have measures about 3" X 2" and half of it is colored in. The 3" by 2" paper represents a quantity of cold air and the colored portion represents the water in the air (50 relative humidity). Now, unfold the paper to its original size. Same air, and same water content. But the water content now represents less than 10 percent of the air.

This is the best way I can describe in layman's terms what is happening when you take cold air and heat it. The relative humidity decreases and it decreased the same amount know matter how you heat it.


----------



## TradEddie

Simple, it's all here:  I even have to understand this for work.






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PsychrometricChart-SeaLevel-SI.jpg


----------



## Waulie

Yes, I do understand it.  What I don't understand is why it seems better for me with a radiant stove.  And no, the old convective stove was certainly not heating the air more.  Maybe it was just the movement of the air that somehow made everything "feel" drier.  IDK.  I even got random nosebleeds with the old stove from the air.  Maybe it's just one of those things that I don't need to understand because I'm loving the results.


----------



## lopiliberty

I have a convection stove and I swear it drys the air out more.  I have two humidifiers and I have a 2400 sq ft house and one just doesn't cut it.  One in the hallway downstairs and one in the hallway upstairs.  You wouldn't believe how dry the air can get when you keep your house at 87 degrees


----------



## Malatu

lopiliberty said:


> I have a convection stove and I swear it drys the air out more. I have two humidifiers and I have a 2400 sq ft house and one just doesn't cut it. One in the hallway downstairs and one in the hallway upstairs. You wouldn't believe how dry the air can get when you keep your house at 87 degrees


 
Yea, it sure can dry out! We keep our temps pretty cool in the winter, 68 +/- degrees. When the outside temp is 30, without our humidifier, it gets down to around 15 % if my memory serves me.  I'd hate to see what raising the temps to 85 would do!

I dealt with sinus issues for years. In the morning, I'd blow my nose and it would be a little bloody, my lips were chapped and the skin on my palms and finger tips would peel. I would always be getting a sinus infection. I stopped smoking cigars, started getting allergy shots, was snorting saline solution and outing lotion on my hands. I realized I was trying to hydrate myself from the outside in. Just for kicks, I decided to increase my water intake drastically for a 24 hour period. I drank two pints of water before I went to work. I took a half gallon of water with me to work and sat it on my desk and finished it before the end of the day and had maybe 3 or 4 more pints of water by the time I hit the sack. I woke up the next morning,...... no bloody mucus, my lips weren't nearly as chapped, and within a day my fingers stopped peeling.

That was 15 years ago. IBefore I started drinking lots of water, I used to get a sinus infection twice a year that would knock me on my **s (felt like I had mono). Since I've started drinking a lot of water, I've had maybe three sinus infections in the past 10 years that I would qualify as serious.


----------



## Malatu

TradEddie said:


> degrees


 
Holy molly.  Now that's what I call a chart!   What does it explain and what is it used for?


----------



## Malatu

I've been giving this some thought. If a convection heater heats the air in a room, and a radiant heater heats the objects the room, then it's logical that the room being heated with the convection stove would have a lower humidity as a result of the air temperature being greater than the same room being heated with a radiant heater. That would explain why feel the difference in the two stoves. So in reality, it is about the stove.

Link: http://housewares.about.com/lw/Home...e-Between-Convection-and-Radiant-Heaters-.htm

*Convection Heaters*
The convection process involves blowing air across a heating element. The air absorbs the heat and is then blown out to heat the air in a room. Thus, this is what you want for a small, chilly, enclosed office or a room that lacks sufficient heat.
Generally, an internal fan blows the air across the heating element inside the heater. The warmed air circulates into the room, raising the ambient temperature until the unit's thermostat senses its goal has been reached and shuts off the heating element. When the air temperature drops enough, the thermostat will trigger the unit to turn on again.
You'll find convection heaters in a variety of shapes and price ranges. Oil-filled heaters look like old-fashioned radiators; ceramic heaters have ceramic disks or plates inside that retain heat for the air to move past and are available in both tower and small box shapes. Some models oscillate, further helping to move the air around the room.
*Radiant Heaters*
Radiant heaters simply radiate the heat they generate to surrounding objects, much like a campfire. A radiant heater won't raise the air temperature in a room, so it's best for small spaces where most people are comfortable, but one feels chilly due to proximity to a drafty window or other circumstance. Radiant heaters have been around for a long time, and older models with exposed heating elements pose serious safety hazards, especially if you have pets or children.


----------



## chvymn99

Wow... Interesting read...


----------



## TradEddie

That's probably some of it, although it's an oversimplified definition since even radiant heaters have some convection and convection stoves have some radiant heating, and even if you "only" heat the objects in a room, those objects will in turn heat the air. Also that definition of radiant heaters is really describing things like those exterior propane "umbrellas", or a kerosene heater, something with a glowing element, while a radiant woodstove generally means something with a huge thermal mass that slowly gives out its heat.

I think that your radiant stove is heating more steadily and evenly, instead of the large fluctuations of the older stove.

As to that fun chart, to see how humidity varies with temperature, take the intersection between any temperature and one of the red lines for humidity, then move horizontally to see what that air would be at a different temperature, so for example 100% (saturated) air at 0C (32F), would be just below the 30% line at 20C (68F), and about 15% at 30C (86F). 

TE


----------

