# Can we still install pre EPA stoves that are Brand new? what things do we need to know We are new



## Marie is cold (Dec 19, 2016)

Hi there. We are relatively new to woodburning in that we have had woodburning stove before as supplemental heat in Mobile home additions etc. We have a big post and beam home with vaulted ceilings and large windows. It is chilly in the dining room and livingroom in the winters. We have looked at woodburning stoves before and favour the look and idea of the soapstone fireplace/stoves. We have come across a small Woodstock Soapstone classic firebox style wood burning stove. It would look great in the corner of our dining room. We woul want to install it lengthwise in the corner with the short wall at the back going into the corner and the short wall with the beautiful little fire door facing into the room. This Stove has the flue opening (5") on the Left long side and the other long side is cast framed clear double wall soapstone. So the questions are; can these be installed in the home? Manufacture date is between 1978 and 1981 but the stove is new. As mentioned is has a soapstone long side, rear short side, solid soapstone top that is hinged to open, a combination cast door and soapstone front, and a 1/2 soapstone 1/2 steel flue side. It is up on legs and looks like a parlour stove.


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## moresnow (Dec 20, 2016)

Any chance of getting a few pics loaded up here? Like to see this stove.


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## rwhite (Dec 20, 2016)

Need To ask local authorities. Some U.S. states do not allow pre-EPA stoves while others do. I'm sure it's similar to the north.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 20, 2016)

Hi moresnow here is a pic of the stove. Its flue opening is 5" and is on the long wall against the doorframe, so not out the short backwall opposite the door. This stove has a massive amount of soapstone content for its size. It is 20" wide X 26" long X 28" high with the legs. It is a double wall of soapstone with the inside box walls being solid soapstone with the exception of the back wall which is 1/2 to 2/3rds soapstone with the top 1/3 being plate steel to accommodate the flue opening. If you go to www.woodstockstoves.com, you can see a step by step slideshow of the building of a "Fireview stove. This is the same stove frame as this Classic stove, with the added front fireview window and the EPA catalytic converter.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 20, 2016)

rwhite said:


> Need To ask local authorities. Some U.S. states do not allow pre-EPA stoves while others do. I'm sure it's similar to the north.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 20, 2016)

moresnow said:


> Any chance of getting a few pics loaded up here? Like to see this stove.


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## Babaganoosh (Dec 20, 2016)

I'd call woodstock  and see if they will give you some trade in credit towards an  epa stove. They might take that off your hands.

Modern stoves are so much better than older stoves. That stove is beautiful though.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 20, 2016)

Babaganoosh said:


> I'd call woodstock  and see if they will give you some trade in credit towards an  epa stove. They might take that off your hands.
> 
> Modern stoves are so much better than older stoves. That stove is beautiful though.



Babaganoosh. Hi we have not purchased it and the shipping would be astronomical across Canada to eastern US. I would be using it only for supplemental heat when it gets below -20C here as our dining room is large and has lots of windows and is chilly then. Saw it at a Wheelrights shop, brandnew and wondered if we might install it, and what we should consider. As in what hazards to watch out for when installing, distance from walls etc.


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## byQ (Dec 20, 2016)

Nice looking old stove. If you call woodstock you might as well ask if this stove could be ungraded with cat  - it probably can't but you never know.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 20, 2016)

Hi byQ. Woodstock sent me an email to say this was their early Classic woodburning stove models. He says it is similar to the fireside but with the cat inside. It would be great to upgrade but if you saw the interior of this stove you would see there is nothing to mount the cat to as it is solid soapstone except the door and back flue wall and the floor which is fire brick. They suggested a damper in the pipe to slow the burn down. We have been looking at soapstone (tuklivis) for a while both for their beauty and because unlike steel stoves that get extremely hot then cool down quickly when the fire is out, the soapstone heats slowly and retains 10X the heat of steeland radiates it out for hours after. This is the attraction to soapstone stoves. For in the home. However the cost is almost prohibitive to purchase one. This one is the old firebox style but has never had a fire in it.


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## Bad LP (Dec 20, 2016)

That is a very nice looking stove.

I would be the last person on earth asking for permission to install that in my home. I would just do it given that my home is rather remote and only have one barely visible neighbor. 
Oh wait. . . I didn't ask permission to install the VC Vigilant stove that is in my house right now.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 20, 2016)

Bad LP said:


> That is a very nice looking stove.
> 
> I would be the last person on earth asking for permission to install that in my home. I would just do it given that my home is rather remote and only have one barely visible neighbor.
> Oh wait. . . I didn't ask permission to install the VC Vigilant stove that is in my house right now.



Bad Bad LP...... and yes same story here. What we need to know is how to do it safely, we do love our country home but "wood" like it warmer on Coldest days. Otherwise this "Wood" be a beautiful corneter stand.  Here are 2 pics of how wekd like to install it.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 20, 2016)

What we need to know is about stovepipe and how to build the 1" clearance firewall on 2 sides?


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## BrotherBart (Dec 20, 2016)

Here are the BC woodstove regulations that went into effect last month. Though it says you can continue to use your old wood stove it is dicey whether you can install an older wood stove now. The fines are at the end of the document.

If BC required a WETT inspection of a new installation that will probably shut you down right there.

http://www.bcairquality.ca/pdf/sfbdar_q-a.pdf


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## bholler (Dec 20, 2016)

Bad LP said:


> I would be the last person on earth asking for permission to install that in my home. I would just do it given that my home is rather remote and only have one barely visible neighbor.
> Oh wait. . . I didn't ask permission to install the VC Vigilant stove that is in my house right now.


The problem is what happens if something goes wrong?  If it is an illegal install good luck getting your insurance company to approve a claim.  There also can be some healthy fines if you get caught.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 20, 2016)

HhhMmm I see.......


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## Bad LP (Dec 21, 2016)

I didn't say anything about an install that is not to code so what's illegal?

As for allowing the EPA entry into my home.... . Good luck with that.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 21, 2016)

Bad LP said:


> I didn't say anything about an install that is not to code so what's illegal?
> 
> As for allowing the EPA entry into my home.... . Good luck with that.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 21, 2016)

Nothing just looking for "To code" pointers to make sure it is installed safely. We've had it for a while but haven't used/payed for it yet.


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## begreen (Dec 21, 2016)

Whether it is legal or not will depend on the local state or province regulations. Check with the inspecting authority. If it's ok, you'll need to follow the manufacturer's guidelines in the manual. If none, then in the states one follows NFPA 211 rules. In Canada there are WETT guidelines.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 21, 2016)

Yep thanks. It has been in our home a while but didn't pay for it yet just wanted some pointers for safe(r?) installation before burning. Rather than a corner stand as it is now.


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## bholler (Dec 21, 2016)

Bad LP said:


> didn't say anything about an install that is not to code so what's illegal?
> 
> As for allowing the EPA entry into my home.... . Good luck with that.


if you are barred from installing the stove in your house by law doing so would make that install illegal.  Not very complicated.   And as far as your comment about allowing the EPA into your home that is just silly.  All the EPA did was set emissions standards.  They did not design the stove and they make no money off of the stove.  The fact is that new stoves give you more heat from each piece of wood while keeping your chimney cleaner and putting less pollution into the atmosphere.  What is bad about that?


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## Bad LP (Dec 21, 2016)

I guess we could go around and around on the topic however my post remains as stated.

If some goody two shoes calls and complains that my stove is putting out too much smoke that's tough cookies for them. I don't care about the EPA or their regulations on wood stoves. Each pound of wood only contains X amount of BTU's. I hardly care if the amount extracted is 75 or 85%.


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## begreen (Dec 21, 2016)

Marie is cold said:


> Yep thanks. It has been in our home a while but didn't pay for it yet just wanted some pointers for safe(r?) installation before burning. Rather than a corner stand as it is now.


It's going to depend on your area. Get on the phone, find out who is the inspecting authority in your region and ask if it is ok as long as the stove is installed properly.  If ok, do you have the stove manual? If not have you contacted Woodstock? Agreed that it looks like it might be an early version of the Fireview Classic.

NFPA guidelines say that it must be installed with 36" clearances in all directions. This can be reduced to as low as 12" with proper wall shielding. And it must be installed on a proper hearth unless the floor is a cement slab or thick hearth. But this is for the US, not Canada. Canada's regs are sometime the same but often a little stricter.


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## begreen (Dec 21, 2016)

Bad LP said:


> I guess we could go around and around on the topic however my post remains as stated.
> 
> If some goody two shoes calls and complains that my stove is putting out too much smoke that's tough cookies for them. I don't care about the EPA or their regulations on wood stoves. Each pound of wood only contains X amount of BTU's. I hardly care if the amount extracted is 75 or 85%.


The difference is more like 50% vs 75%. That's a 50% increase in efficiency which can equal a lot of wood saved.


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## Marie is cold (Dec 21, 2016)

How did we keep warm before EPA? I rented 2 homes as a teen way back in the 70's with wood heat. One was a cabin with a firebox Old wood stove it didn't even have brick linings. The next an Old 2 storey farmhouse with a big woodstove in the basement and floor grids on the main and upper floors to allow the heat through them. Both the cabin and the house stayed warm for 12 hours and both had been there with their original heaters for over 30 years. Before we moved in. The soapstone heater has been sitting hooked up for quite a while and has been used as plant stand. We are just looking for tips to see if our installation idea is safe.


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## bholler (Dec 21, 2016)

Bad LP said:


> If some goody two shoes calls and complains that my stove is putting out too much smoke that's tough cookies for them. I don't care about the EPA or their regulations on wood stoves. Each pound of wood only contains X amount of BTU's. I hardly care if the amount extracted is 75 or 85%.


Have you ever run a modern stove?  I went from a very good old pre epa stove that had an early clean burn system to a modern one and the difference was amazing.  More heat with less wood.  How is that possibly a bad thing?  I know that i prefer to have to cut and process as little wood as I need to.  And how is less pollution a bad thing?


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## begreen (Dec 21, 2016)

Marie is cold said:


> How did we keep warm before EPA? I rented 2 homes as a teen way back in the 70's with wood heat. One was a cabin with a firebox Old wood stove it didn't even have brick linings. The next an Old 2 storey farmhouse with a big woodstove in the basement and floor grids on the main and upper floors to allow the heat through them. Both the cabin and the house stayed warm for 12 hours and both had been there with their original heaters for over 30 years. Before we moved in. The soapstone heater has been sitting hooked up for quite a while and has been used as plant stand. We are just looking for tips to see if our installation idea is safe.


That's kind of a silly question. How did folks keep warm before wood stoves? (answer: burning a boat load of wood and not too well at that) Times have progressed and one of the nice outcomes is more heat from less wood.


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## begreen (Dec 21, 2016)

Marie is cold said:


> Bad Bad LP...... and yes same story here. What we need to know is how to do it safely, we do love our country home but "wood" like it warmer on Coldest days. Otherwise this "Wood" be a beautiful corneter stand.  Here are 2 pics of how wekd like to install it.


Which layout?


Marie is cold said:


> What we need to know is about stovepipe and how to build the 1" clearance firewall on 2 sides?


https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/wood-stove-wall-clearances-primer.147785/#post-1987380


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## bholler (Dec 21, 2016)

Marie is cold said:


> How did we keep warm before EPA?


No one said that pre epa stoves did not heat your house or that they are bad stoves at all.  Just that new ones put more of the available heat from each peice of wood into your home.  If you choose an old one that is up to you.  But you also have to follow your local laws.  Where  I live there is nothing sayng you cant install an old stove but it seems where you live there may be.



Marie is cold said:


> We are just looking for tips to see if our installation idea is safe.


Well no, you asked if you could install a pre epa stove.  And you were told that you need to check you local laws about that.  As far as safety yes they can be perfectly safe as long as you install them with proper clearances and on a proper hearth.


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## Bad LP (Dec 21, 2016)

bholler said:


> Have you ever run a modern stove?  I went from a very good old pre epa stove that had an early clean burn system to a modern one and the difference was amazing.  More heat with less wood.  How is that possibly a bad thing?  I know that i prefer to have to cut and process as little wood as I need to.  And how is less pollution a bad thing?



Matter of fact yes I have.

I own a Jotul Rockland 550 insert that I bought brand new in 2012 or 13. I forget. A very good friend has the freestanding model so I think I'm a pretty good judge of that model. 

I spent last weekend feeding both stoves in Maine. Jotul in the living room and the pre EPA VC in the basement. Both burning the same wood mix out of the same wood pile that is of the same age and MC.

It is my opinion that both stoves performed very well in sub zero temps. I'm also willing to bet that the single 3 foot diameter hoop of wood that I burnt upstairs was very close to the volume I burnt in the basement stove.

While it if tough to compare apples to oranges in my application that VC put out some heat and as expected it would feel different due to the insert being the comparison. They clearly fit the same number of sticks and were loaded at the same times for the most part. Neither stove ever went out nor did one burn more than 5 hours without getting a refill.

The only thing that is really noticeable is the amount of smoke emitted out the chimney. Both are smokey on start up. The VC remains a little more smokey and smokes about 5 minutes longer until established. 

Finally. The Jotul was almost 4K including the required SS 6" liner inside my 8" tile. The VC was 500 plus some new 8" pipe running into a 8" tile. I already own the crimping tools.


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## bholler (Dec 21, 2016)

Bad LP said:


> Finally. The Jotul was almost 4K including the required SS 6" liner inside my 8" tile. The VC was 500 plus some new 8" pipe running into a 8" tile. I already own the crimping tools.


Well if you installed an old insert you would need a liner as well.  But as far as free standers go many new stoves will work fne on an 8" clay lined chimney yes they will work better with a liner but so will old stoves.  Also it is not a fair comparison because you bought the vc used and the jotul new.  If you had gotten the jotul used the prices would have been much closer obviously a brand new stove will cost allot more than a used one.   And honestly if you are only getting 5 hours out of the jotul you are either pushing it pretty hard or you are doing something wrong


Now I am curious why you made the statement about letting the epa into your house when you already have an epa approved stove?

And why on Saturday you asked what the moisture content of wood was but now you know more about the differences between modern clean burn stoves and classic ones than someone who has been doing this for a living for over a decade now.

I am by no means anti classic stoves I had one for years that I loved and I know many people who still happily use them.  But just because you can get an old used classic stove cheap does not mean it is better than a new one.  Just that it was cheaper.


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## Bad LP (Dec 21, 2016)

Wow are you a pain in the ass. 
You clearly have butt hurt from the 2016 election. 
Do you work for the EPA or have any relation to an environmental group? 

If you want to nit pick details go for it one at a time after answering my last sentance.

Ask a question and get a reply.


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## bholler (Dec 21, 2016)

Bad LP said:


> Do you work for the EPA or have any relation to an environmental group?


no I am a chimney sweep.  I see the results of modern stoves and classic stove in the chimneys every day.  This has absolutely nothing to do with politics the new stoves burn better and cleaner hat reduces the chance of a chimney fire and gives you more heat in the house for each piece of wood.  If you want to cut more wood to prove a political point you go ahead but I will be happily burning less wood in my new stove.   Now what moisture content is you wood at?  Maybe we can help you get your jotul working the way it should


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## rwhite (Dec 22, 2016)

Seems  like a 5x4 will be enough for a non-corner install. The corner install doesn't seem like a good idea. By the time you get 12" clearance on the corners of a 26" stove and the 18" on the front you're gonna be way out into the living space. Why not go up with the chimney rather than right out the wall? I'll bet your gonna have a constantly cold pipe and chimney which probably won't draft worth a darn.

And folks around here aren't the EPA police,  they are trying to warn you what is possible if you install a stove that is not to local code and something happens.  You can bet if something ever did happen the 1st thing an insurance co is going to check is if it was installed to code even if the code has nothing to do with the incident (such as installing a non EPA stove). There reasoning will be that a fire may not have started because it was a non-EPA stove but that it shiuldnt have been there in the first place. And they dont have to come into your home to see if you violate emmisions. All they need is a complaint and to  measure obscurity of the sky a certain distance above the chimney. 

You did ask "if" you could install not "how".


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## fibels (Dec 24, 2016)

Marie is cold said:


> Babaganoosh. Hi we have not purchased it and the shipping would be astronomical across Canada to eastern US. I would be using it only for supplemental heat when it gets below -20C here as our dining room is large and has lots of windows and is chilly then. Saw it at a Wheelrights shop, brandnew and wondered if we might install it, and what we should consider. As in what hazards to watch out for when installing, distance from walls etc.


   I owned  the Woodstock Classic.It has a CAT and because of this it should still be certified.It takes a 6inch pipe.Call Woodstock and check but I think they'll say your good to go.


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## fibels (Dec 24, 2016)

bholler said:


> Have you ever run a modern stove?  I went from a very good old pre epa stove that had an early clean burn system to a modern one and the difference was amazing.  More heat with less wood.  How is that possibly a bad thing?  I know that i prefer to have to cut and process as little wood as I need to.  And how is less pollution a bad thing?


  Which stove was that ?I'm interested.


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## bholler (Dec 24, 2016)

fibels said:


> Which stove was that ?I'm interested.


the old one was a cawley lemay 600 the new one is a regency 3100


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## fibels (Dec 25, 2016)

bholler said:


> the old one was a cawley lemay 600 the new one is a regency 3100


 I never heard of the Cawley Lemay.Did you say it rivals the new stoves in heat  and burn times?


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## begreen (Dec 25, 2016)

History of Cawley Lemay is in the Hearth wiki. 
https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/cawley-lemay/
FWIW, it took some convincing to get bholler to put in an EPA stove too.


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## bholler (Dec 25, 2016)

fibels said:


> I never heard of the Cawley Lemay.Did you say it rivals the new stoves in heat and burn times?


No I said exactly the opposite.  For a stove designed in the early to mid 70s it was pretty far ahead of most others out there for efficiency.  But nowhere near the new stuff


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## bholler (Dec 25, 2016)

begreen said:


> FWIW, it took some convincing to get bholler to put in an EPA stove too.


Well I wouldn't quite say that it just took the right stove at the right price coming along.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Dec 25, 2016)

Bad LP said:


> Wow are you a pain in the ass.
> You clearly have butt hurt from the 2016 election.
> Do you work for the EPA or have any relation to an environmental group?
> 
> ...


Hi Bad LP- I know how you feel about your stoves. I own and burned a 80s vintage VC Resolute for over 20 years, and just started on an EPA stove last winter.

That said, bholler knows what he's talking about. Everything he has told me has been spot on. His delivery is straight and to the point which is refreshing to me, but some find it a little off putting. He does get defensive at times, I think because he's a professional trying to help us here on his free time, and lots of people pay him for his considerable knowledge and experience in this realm. 

Wouldn't you get frustrated if some layperson in whatever field you are an expert in, that you were trying to help, second guessed your (professional and free) opinion? 

Please consider that he is still trying to help you even after you called him a pain in the ass and brought your political frustrations into the conversation. I am sad that clean air is still a polical issue for anyone at this stage of our human experience.  Go visit China if you can't remember the way things were right here in the 70s.  And, ironically, bholler's lack of political correctness and straight talk seems to align pretty directly with your side of the fence. Or, is that only a good thing if his opinion is the same as yours?

We are all brothers and sisters here, Merry Christmas!


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