# Pellet Hopper Fire



## sass_eco65 (Dec 17, 2014)

Hi all, 

I am new to the site. 

I have a Drolet Eco-65 with hot air plenum kit installed in my basement. This means that my stove is connected to its own duct runs (separate from my propane furnace runs) to the main floor, where we wanted our heat. We live in a 1100 sq. ft bungalow. 

The stove is only 2 months old. We had it installed by a W.E.T.T certified tech. We then had another W.E.T.T. certification by our city as this is required with a permit. It has a 4" OAK as well as 4" pipe. All was done as per manufacturer specs. We clean it once a week as the manual states to do. Stove was cleaned 2 days prior to our "incident"

About two weeks ago we had a power outage. 15 minutes had gone by and our entire home had filled with smoke. It was so smoky you could barely see where you were walking. Next thing you know, the hopper caught fire. We got a fire extinguisher and kept it contained until the fire dept. arrived. 

I spoke to the manufacturer and they want me to bring the stove back to RONA (where I purchased it), and they will refund me and I can buy another one. My issue now is what if this happens again? I have been told that it is due to the way the stove is built. I am looking into getting a battery back-up. I am just wondering how this can be sold in stores if it is a fire hazard the minute there is a power outage. There is no warning in the manual and they do not mention anything about a battery back-up. Very stressful to find out the hard way... 

Please let me know if you can give me any advice. TIA


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## reallyte (Dec 17, 2014)

I would never buy another anything that puts my family in danger like that...


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## checkthisout (Dec 17, 2014)

Freaky! What if you hadn't been home or it was night time?? I would get my money back and get a different stove unless the "new" stove they are offering has features to keep that from happening.


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 17, 2014)

reallyte said:


> I would never buy another anything that puts my family in danger like that...



Yes... unfortunately we spent 2500$ on the stove and an additional $2000 in parts and labor. It is as if the more research I do, the more common hopper fires seem to be under the "right" circumstances. These machines have been tried and tested. Just looking for someone who might have experienced this or can give advice.


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## Highbeam (Dec 17, 2014)

Drolet.


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 17, 2014)

Call me crazy.. this was the only stove that I could directly vent to the main floor that was certified to do so. I have heard Drolet is not the greatest.. but that the Eco-65 has decent reviews? I wonder if anyone else has had this happen before who owns one...


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 18, 2014)

So after looking into more about other stoves... It looks like I will be purchasing a Napoleon or Kozi as they are top feed. Harman was an option but we are taking a huge loss on the install and our budget is tight right now. 

I will never buy another Drolet product again. Lesson learnt!


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## chken (Dec 18, 2014)

sass_eco65 said:


> I spoke to the manufacturer and they want me to bring the stove back to RONA (where I purchased it), and they will refund me and I can buy another one. My issue now is what if this happens again? I have been told that it is due to the way the stove is built. I am looking into getting a battery back-up. I am just wondering how this can be sold in stores if it is a fire hazard the minute there is a power outage. There is no warning in the manual and they do not mention anything about a battery back-up. Very stressful to find out the hard way...
> 
> Please let me know if you can give me any advice. TIA


I am in no way litigious, never sued a soul, but does that first sentence sound odd? If the installations were certified, and the mfr admits the problem is in the way the stove is built, and they want you to buy another one? Surely they mean a model built differently. I would get some legal advice.


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## kappel15 (Dec 18, 2014)

Somebody should be paying for the smoke damage to your house.


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## rona (Dec 18, 2014)

sass_eco65 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am new to the site.
> 
> ...


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## rona (Dec 18, 2014)

A lot of stoves have a built in safety feature that will prevent the hopper from catching on fire but the smoke from the pot will still seep up through the hopper.
  The Harmans have a slide that opens and closes as the auger turns plus it has a rubber gasket around the hopper lid that hopefully will prevent smoke from getting into the room. The Bixbys have a feeder wheel that drops the pellets down a spout into the pot there is a gasket that is supposed to prevent the smoke from getting into the hopper. Having said that the smoke from the smoldering pellets will seep through the ash bucket door. The easiest cure is pour water over the burn pot and kill the fire. Then remove the ash bucket and empty it of any burning embers by tossing into a metal can or in a snowbank.
  The idea of a vertical pipe 3 or 4 foot going up inside the house then through the wall is a good idea as it should produce a natural vacuum and suck the smoke out of the stove. I have seen the vertical pipe outside but I think you can get a build up of ash where the pipe goes through the wall and vertical because of the temp change.


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 18, 2014)

Thanks for the info.

Yes they should be paying. Unfortunately their warranty states they do not cover power outages. I don't know if I'm ready for a huge court battle. 

I want the damn thing out... And a different stove in. There are no safety features on this stove to prevent burnback. They are claiming its from extreme negative pressure in our basement. I think they are loopy.


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## trmbone2002 (Dec 18, 2014)

Did the hopper fire start from flames entering the drop chute? I am not understanding how the pellets in the hopper can catch fire unless the heat from the fire box gets so high. I'm thinking that the stove would have to get red hot for the pellets to ignite. ?????


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 18, 2014)

trmbone2002 said:


> Did the hopper fire start from flames entering the drop chute? I am not understanding how the pellets in the hopper can catch fire unless the heat from the fire box gets so high. I'm thinking that the stove would have to get red hot for the pellets to ignite. ?????



Basically the auger was feeding pellets when the power went out. It created a bridge of pellets from the burn pot to the hopper. So what was in the auger caught... And followed up into the hopper.


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## trmbone2002 (Dec 18, 2014)

sass_eco65 said:


> Basically the auger was feeding pellets when the power went out. It created a bridge of pellets from the burn pot to the hopper. So what was in the auger caught... And followed up into the hopper.


OK------, does the auger feed horizontally from the bottom of the hopper? Or, does it feed through an inclined chute and drop the pellets into the fire pot?


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## Don2222 (Dec 18, 2014)

The stove's venting installation must have 3 feet of vertical rise, if not then an OAK must be installed or you can get a smoked filled room when the power goes out. This can happen to most any stove if the install was the bare minimun! So what does the venting configuration look like?


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 18, 2014)

trmbone2002 said:


> OK------, does the auger feed horizontally from the bottom of the hopper? Or, does it feed through an inclined chute and drop the pellets into the fire pot?



Horizontal.


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 18, 2014)

Don2222 said:


> The stove's venting installation must have 3 feet of vertical rise, if not then an OAK must be installed or you can get a smoked filled room when the power goes out. This can happen to most any stove if the install was the bare minimun! So what was it?



We have about 5' vertical inside, and 2' outside. We also have a 4" OAK. No reason why there should be a problem besides a design flaw IMO.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 18, 2014)

What shape was the hopper lid gasket in and are there any latches to keep the lid tight against the gasket..

There would have to be an air path into the stove (OAK) and up through the hopper (that negative pressure thing again) along with perhaps a pellet bridge between the augers. 

Just so everyone understands all pellet stoves can have hopper fires.

The stove usually contains the fire unless someone opens the hopper lid.  

There is usually a lot of smoke however your up 5' bend then out followed by a bend and up 2 feet is effectively less of a vertical than you might need.


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## rona (Dec 18, 2014)

It sounds like some stoves are easier then others for getting a hopper fire.  I also question having outside air as a preventative for a smoke filled room when power goes off.  That happened to us last winter and we had Outside Air into the stove. I poured water into the pot and doused the embers otherwise it would have been real smoky in the house.
  I was reading in one of these pellet stove websites that one company recommended not letting the hopper get below 1/4 full to avoid smoke in the house but don't remember the brand name or model.


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## RKS130 (Dec 19, 2014)

chken said:


> I am in no way litigious, never sued a soul, but does that first sentence sound odd? If the installations were certified, and the mfr admits the problem is in the way the stove is built, and they want you to buy another one? Surely they mean a model built differently. I would get some legal advice.



I would at least think about Small Claims Court to recoup the installation cost after they refund the purchase price.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 19, 2014)

The outside air is to negate any negative pressure effects upon the combustion process and to prevent flow reversal due to disruption of the exhaust system from dumping smoke into the room. 

The OAK termination becomes the lowest point in the vent system you need to be above that for the exhaust vent termination by a certain height in order to have any real chance of withdrawing (natural draft) smoke from the stove via the vent during a power outage.

Even if you have a natural draft in the venting as the systems gets ash laden the draft will get compromised.

It cannot by itself prevent smoke from exiting via a hopper system that doesn't have a functioning gasket and the stove being in a negative pressure area.  A functioning gasket is however not the same as just having a gasket. 

Let your homeowner's insurance company have a go at it.

A lot of older stoves had a warning about keeping the lid to the hopper down when burning and not letting the fuel level go below a certain point.

Newer stoves seem to be going to the gasket and latch system and recommending an OAK some like ESW require an OAK.

The only sure test of a vent system under power loss conditions is to simulate a power loss at a time immediately prior to a deep clean when the stove is full of ash.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 19, 2014)

My boiler has a gallon water tank that dumps water on a hopper fire.  Hopefully.  
The water line going into the auger is the blue line and the tank is above.


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## F4jock (Dec 19, 2014)

The small claims court idea above is a good one. You can research it a bit and if applicable you can be your own attorney. Settlements are quick. In any case if you want a stove that'll let you sleep at night bite the bullet and get a Harman.


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## hyfire (Dec 19, 2014)

I have a eco-65 and had a power outage, I had no visible  smoke in the room, but did have some smoke smell and still maintained a negative draft of .05" w.c.  However I do have a natural draft since I have 10 of vertical rise( 4 inside and 6 outside). and my OAK is 18" from the ground.  I do regret to hear about the hopper fire and it sounds very scary, but having the room fill with smoke sounds like  a draft problem that led to your loss of neg pressure at the auger chute at the power outage.  The manual states you need a min of 3' vertical rise after a horizontal termination. You said you cleaned the stove but did you clean the horizontal flue section of your venting? This is where its critical as the ash builds up very quickly.


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## VTrider (Dec 19, 2014)

Okay, these are the types of threads that 'spark' my interest - no pun intended.  Seriously though, a hopper fire is such a rare and serious incident that should be one of the *main concerns* for every member here.  I think the focus of this thread is to understand first, why this has happened and what to do to prevent this in the future?

Smokey, you mentioned that all pellet stoves can have hopper fires.  I understand that this is a possibility of course, considering we are all dealing with a combustion machine - but let's face it, with a properly installed stove under the correct circumstances these things just don't 'usually' happen without some sort of key variable like an unmaintained stove, improper venting, etc.?

I find it hard to believe that a company would design a stove that could kill you and your family and burn down your house if it looses power during operation - then again..I just don't know?  So, was it inadequate vertical exhaust rise / draft?, something inherent about bottom-feeder pellet design, or what?  I too heat from the basement with a similar stove which runs 24/7 and this scenario scares the hell outta me!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 20, 2014)

Yes VTrider there are things that usually have to be in place for there to be a hopper fire, however if you go through all of the non hopper fire threads on here you soon discover there is more than ample conditions extent in the installed stove base that could end in that manner.    

Topping the list are the self installs that do not follow the instructions in the fine manual.  

Then we have more than just one or two "professional" installs that also fall in that category.  

However even if the install is by the book, what transpires next frequently isn't.

I and others keep harping on some of the more egregious installation and operational ones, but over and over and over the same ones keep showing up.

If I tell someone not to fire their stove up until they have the cause for the creosote they are indicating is appearing where it shouldn't be fixed and the system cleaned and the "repairman" says it is just sweating in the chimney I want to reach out and apply some physical reinforcement.

As I've  said these stoves are generally pretty good at containing a hopper fire provided ....  but smoke they will.  

You have electrical safeties that are fine until you lose the juice to run them, then there are are gaskets that contain even smoke, there is venting that allows the smoke to exit the stove, and so on goes the list, however these things need periodic cleaning, checking, and maintenance (deferment isn't really an option).


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## Bioburner (Dec 20, 2014)

Something we all need to also look at is the care to which a product is manufactured. Manufacturing standards not being adhered to in China leads to many problems. USSC letting the Chinese make the window stove and now it had problems with poor metal in the burn pot. A good design can be poorly made and leads to the problems.


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## SidecarFlip (Dec 20, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> Something we all need to also look at is the care to which a product is manufactured. Manufacturing standards not being adhered to in China leads to many problems. USSC letting the Chinese make the window stove and now it had problems with poor metal in the burn pot. A good design can be poorly made and leads to the problems.


 

Absolutely.  However, not all Chinese stuff is substandard.  It depends entirely on oversight by the OEM and what they require as to quality.  Let a Chinese manufacturer (of anything) have an unfettered control and things go downhill fast....

Case in point (for reference) for me is the Arborists saw I purchased this fall.  It's a Tanaka which is actually a Hitachi brand (Japanese) made in China and it's a well put together, very reliable chainsaw but (and this is a biggie).....  I suspect that there is strict oversight and quality standards involved on the part of Hitachi.

Some items, like grey iron castings, are almost unobtainable domestically at a reasonable and competitive price.  The castings on most stoves will be offshore, maybe not china but most likely, but again, oversight is paramount and profit versus quality needs to be addressed.  That applies to everything, not just stoves btw.


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## hyfire (Dec 20, 2014)

FYI this is not a Chinese stove, its Canadian made and CSA approved.


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 20, 2014)

Here is the stove setup from inside. I will post a pic from outside in a few. Also, the stove we have is the 2010 model, not the 2012 so the manuals are slightly different. Not sure if that makes a difference for the backdraft shutter.

The hopper lid does not seal like other units would... I dont know why. If you look at pictures of the stove, you can actually see that the hopper lid sits up a bit. We had about 2 bags in the hopper when it happened.

So how exactly do I prevent this from happening with my new setup? I would like a top fed unit for piece of mind.

I could go to small claims, but the owners manual states that they do not cover power failures. Im sure that does not go to the extent of them being able to burn the house down.. I just dont think it would settle as fast as some might think. Also, we have not notified our insurance as the fire department said we only need to if we want to make a claim. Trying to weigh variables. Besides the slight hint of smoke left in the house, the only damage was done to the stove.


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 20, 2014)

Here is outside. The OAK is at the same level as where the pipe comes out the wall, and is just to the left. Don't have a pic of it.


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 20, 2014)

hyfire said:


> I have a eco-65 and had a power outage, I had no visible smoke in the room, but did have some smoke smell and still maintained a negative draft of .05" w.c.  However I do have a natural draft since I have 10 of vertical rise( 4 inside and 6 outside). and my OAK is 18" from the ground.  I do regret to hear about the hopper fire and it sounds very scary, but having the room fill with smoke sounds like  a draft problem that led to your loss of neg pressure at the auger chute at the power outage.  The manual states you need a min of 3' vertical rise after a horizontal termination. You said you cleaned the stove but did you clean the horizontal flue section of your venting? This is where its critical as the ash builds up very quickly.


 

The manual states that you need a minimum total vertical rise of 3'? Pretty sure it doesn't state it has to be that after a horizontal run. Would a single foot extra outside really have made the difference between a fire or not a fire? I can understand maybe 4+ feet. Either way, the installer followed what the manual said and I had 2 inspections. We have not cleaned the horizontal section of venting yet as the stove had only been installed for a month.


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## hyfire (Dec 20, 2014)

The manual does state that yes, but like you said would 1 foot really have made a difference? I don;t know, but without putting a pressure gauge on it, you won;t know how well its going to work.  Is the house tightly sealed? If  you burned 1 bag a day for a month the flue would be clogged more than 50 % based on from what I have seen with mine, and I clean it every 30  bags.  If it were my setup I would change the outside T fitting to a 2 way tee fitting and add at least 6 feet to it in vertical height, this way you can actually clean the horizontal flue.


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 20, 2014)

hyfire said:


> The manual does state that yes, but like you said would 1 foot really have made a difference? I don;t know, but without putting a pressure gauge on it, you won;t know how well its going to work.  Is the house tightly sealed? If  you burned 1 bag a day for a month the flue would be clogged more than 50 % based on from what I have seen with mine, and I clean it every 30  bags.  If it were my setup I would change the outside T fitting to a 2 way tee fitting and add at least 6 feet to it in vertical height, this way you can actually clean the horizontal flue.


 
Yes, with the new setup we will be putting the 2 way tee on it. I will however be buying a different stove. The guys at the fireplace store I spoke to keep saying all you need is a foot or two of vertical rise outside for their stoves. I am wondering if I should tell them I want an additional 6'. Although there may be an air issue with the setup we have now, there are no safety features in place on the eco65 to prevent the hopper from catching fire. Smoke is one thing... fire is another. The fact that air can get under the hopper lid on the old ones is scary enough on its own, let alone the stove design.


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## hyfire (Dec 20, 2014)

Just get a draft gauge and test it 1st before you remove the stove, id be interested to see the results, you can get one 30-50 on ebay, and you should keep it also on the next stove you get.


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## CaptSpiff (Dec 20, 2014)

sass_eco65,
The first question you need to answer is: will you ever trust this stove design again, and will your wife trust it?

If yes, then you must really think about a ups (like for your computer) to continue the electrical supply at least long enough for the shutdown cycle. I think this is even more important on the horizontal auger design such as the "65". If I recall correctly the shutdown cycle stops the upper auger (hopper auger) and allows the lower auger (burn pot auger) to continue feeding. This breaks the "fuel bridge" and prevents any burning to migrate into the hopper.

During the power failure both augers stop and a burn path exists to the hopper. Normally the "65" is very air hungry, and I was told the fire will "snuff out" if both the input combustion fan and the output combustion fan stop together. But maybe your venting draft is strong and the fire continued with enough fresh air to get to the hopper. I've never seen that, but there's always a first.

There are several threads on UPS applications here. Concentrate on the ones that talk about a 1 hour run time, ignore the ones suggesting 8-10 hour runs because you'll need several deep-cycle batteries to support that.

Good luck. Looking at your install, both inside and out, it looked pretty good to me. Raising your outside exhaust vent another 2 to 4 feet would be OK, but that present setup should work fine. My only worry is how did you clean the horizontal back down to your stove Tee?


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## CaptSpiff (Dec 20, 2014)

Need to follow up my own post cause I have a couple of questions:

Are those before fire or after fire pictures? I ask cause everything looks so clean.

You said the smoke was so thick it was hard to see. Did you actually see flames in the hopper, or only smoke?

Does the "65" have an "air wash" system on the glass in the door? This is typically a place where smoke will exit during power loss on other stoves.

The "65" has a back draft flapper in the OAK connector. Would that close and inhibit the natural draft during power loss?

This one may be embarrassing but, do you have interconnected (battery backup) smoke detectors in the basement & upstairs?


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## hyfire (Dec 21, 2014)

The 65 does have an air wash around the lower horizontal section of the glass, and it has no back draft flapper that I know of, at least on my model,  which is a 2012.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 21, 2014)

sass_eco65 said:


> The manual states that you need a minimum total vertical rise of 3'? Pretty sure it doesn't state it has to be that after a horizontal run. Would a single foot extra outside really have made the difference between a fire or not a fire? I can understand maybe 4+ feet. Either way, the installer followed what the manual said and I had 2 inspections. We have not cleaned the horizontal section of venting yet as the stove had only been installed for a month.



Actually IIRC from when I read your manual I would read the termination requirements to be in excess of 3' above the OAK depending on what your code defines certain terms to mean.  The US clearances are a bit clearer in certain cases.  I'd grill that inspector. 

I don't have actual measurements on how much horizontal is in the vent run or if there is any of the venting going downward   You have an EVL of at least 28 which is going to cause a lot of ash to be deposited in the vent run especially with the vent termination so close to the OAK which would likely cause a poor burn as evidenced by the soot stain on the termination.  

Between the ash and normal vent restriction it would likely be very difficult to sustain a natural draft during a  power outage.


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## lagger (Dec 21, 2014)

My Lopi AGP has a disk system (bottom feed) that effectively isolates the auger from the hopper, that is there is no direct link to the hopper and a bridge of pellets is not possible (or so they say)  The disk turns horizontally to bring pellets on one side to the auger before being fed to the burn platform, the AGP has more of a platform than a pot, it is angled at 14 deg toward the ash pan to facilitate dropping the ashes as new pellets are fed from the rear


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## Pellet-King (Dec 21, 2014)

You need a good battery backup, would of prevented this in the first place, Horizontal "pusher" style stoves always Irked me, Harmon uses it, drop chute I really cnt see how it could cause a hopper fire


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## hyfire (Dec 21, 2014)

By looking at the pics, looks like he has about 1 foot horizontal plus the fitting distance, but I;m just guessing.. the OP would know.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 21, 2014)

Pellet-King said:


> You need a good battery backup, would of prevented this in the first place, Horizontal "pusher" style stoves always Irked me, Harmon uses it, drop chute I really cnt see how it could cause a hopper fire



Don't let me burst your bubble then, you keep right on believing that.

Or follow the consequences of a poorly adjusted damper, plenty of ash in the stove's exhaust channels.

I believe Rod posted a few pictures in his stuff,  links to which are some of stickies at the top of this forum room.

As a further example I present  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/englander-25-pah-issues.137024/page-3#post-1842161


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## F4jock (Dec 21, 2014)

CaptSpiff said:


> sass_eco65,
> The first question you need to answer is: will you ever trust this stove design again, and will your wife trust it?
> 
> If yes, then you must really think about a ups (like for your computer) to continue the electrical supply at least long enough for the shutdown cycle. I think this is even more important on the horizontal auger design such as the "65". If I recall correctly the shutdown cycle stops the upper auger (hopper auger) and allows the lower auger (burn pot auger) to continue feeding. This breaks the "fuel bridge" and prevents any burning to migrate into the hopper.
> ...


Ignore longer UPS run times? So. . . . what if I'm away or asleep and the power fails? If the stove doesn't go into a hard and permanent shutdown on power fail an hour ain't gonna cut it. I want as much leeway as I can get to be sure I can take corrective measures. A couple of deep cycle batteries and a charging system / inverter is a small price to pay for safety. And, for me anyway, one hopper fire caused by poor stove design and not a correctable error on my part would be one too many. Stove would be scrapped.


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## chken (Dec 21, 2014)

Okay, just skimmed the thread, so I may have missed it, but what can the OP do now to prevent future fires?

Does the stove have an auto shutdown when it senses a modified sine wave like Harmans do? If it does, then a UPS with a modified sine wave would work, wouldn't it? 

As for small claims court, and the disclaimer in the manual. I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that disclaimers are not worth the paper they are written on, unless the owner explicitly agrees to them.


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## F4jock (Dec 21, 2014)

chken said:


> Okay, just skimmed the thread, so I may have missed it, but what can the OP do now to prevent future fires?
> 
> Does the stove have an auto shutdown when it senses a modified sine wave like Harmans do? If it does, then a UPS with a modified sine wave would work, wouldn't it?
> 
> As for small claims court, and the disclaimer in the manual. I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that disclaimers are not worth the paper they are written on, unless the owner explicitly agrees to them.


And it doesn't excuse poor design or design negligence. (Daughter is corporate council for a product liability firm.) Manufacturer is responsible for insuring safety under all operating conditions that can be reasonably anticipated and or for which there is a reasonable precedent. I'd say power failure meets that criteria. As well, it can be shown that other manufacturers have taken successful steps to provide for that eventuality so the maker of this stove should have known it was necessary.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 21, 2014)

Gotta ask. What position was the fresh air intake damper in.


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## hyfire (Dec 21, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Gotta ask. What position was the fresh air intake damper in.





F4jock said:


> And it doesn't excuse poor design or design negligence. (Daughter is corporate council for a product liability firm.) Manufacturer is responsible for insuring safety under all operating conditions that can be reasonably anticipated and or for which there is a reasonable precedent. I'd say power failure meets that criteria. As well, it can be shown that other manufacturers have taken successful steps to provide for that eventuality so the maker of this stove should have known it was necessary.



According to the manual the installation  may not meet the requirements outlined.  The OAk being  at least 3 feet lower than the exhaust discharge, a 3 foot vertical rise after a horizontal run.  This would be a hard battle..but I do agree it should be a safer design.


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## F4jock (Dec 21, 2014)

hyfire said:


> According to the manual the installation  may not meet the requirements outlined.  The OAk being  at least 3 feet lower than the exhaust discharge, a 3 foot vertical rise after a horizontal run.  This would be a hard battle..but I do agree it should be a safer design.


Defense would have to show that the "improper installation" affected operation in such a way as to cause or contribute to the fire moreso than faulty design.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 21, 2014)

F4jock said:


> Defense would have to show that the "improper installation" affected operation in such a way as to cause or contribute to the fire moreso than faulty design.



Actually the plaintiff would have to show a design error, the respondent has more than one option and in fact can pursue several differing and what might appear to most folks conflicting lines of defense.

I also am not a lawyer but have seen several very complicated civil cases work their way through the federal court system.  Ending in total destruction of the company that was the plaintiff. I don't bet on  which way a case will proceed in court.  

Anyway the OP is in Canada.


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## F4jock (Dec 21, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Actually the plaintiff would have to show a design error, the respondent has more than one option and in fact can pursue several differing and what might appear to most folks conflicting lines of defense.
> 
> I also am not a lawyer but have seen several very complicated civil cases work their way through the federal court system.  Ending in total destruction of the company that was the plaintiff. I don't bet on  which way a case will proceed in court.
> 
> Anyway the OP is in Canada.


Assumption was that the plaintiff would principally contend poor design. Canada has a small claims system court handling claims of up to 25K.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 21, 2014)

F4jock said:


> Assumption was that the plaintiff would principally contend poor design. Canada has a small claims system court handling claims of up to 25K.




Plaintiff has the duty of proof in civil litigation even in small claims court.


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## F4jock (Dec 21, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Plaintiff has the duty of proof in civil litigation even in small claims court.


Naturally, but the defendant must convince the judge that the plaintiff's contention has little or no merit, thus if a design flaw is alleged the defense must be able to logically refute that contention with precedent. Your assumption is that they would contend improper installation. In order to make that germaine to the defense they would have to show that this installation was a cause of the fire.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 21, 2014)

I make no assumptions and would not prepare my side let alone disclose it until the plaintiff has disclosed their side which they must do first.

I also would make no assumption that a small claims court would be the venue such an action would end up being decided in.

I mentioned the OP should go through his homeowners insurance company and that is exactly where I would start.


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## F4jock (Dec 21, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> I make no assumptions and would not prepare my side let alone disclose it until the plaintiff has disclosed their side which they must do first.
> 
> I also would make no assumption that a small claims court would be the venue such an action would end up being decided in.
> 
> I mentioned the OP should go through his homeowners insurance company and that is exactly where I would start.


Of course, but since the only apparent damage was smoke the 25K and under rule apparently makes it the perfect venue.

Not exactly sure what claim could or should be made under homeowners. I'd want to go after the stove mfgr no matter as I'd want my money back and why should I possibly incur a hike in my rates if I could avoid it? Oh and unless I knew the problem was my fault I'd never fire that stove in my house again.


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 22, 2014)

Here is the manual for the 2010 model. They have tweaked the unit so this was the manual I legally had to use. I purchased the stove in July 2014. The new model came out in 2012. This means that the older stoves have/still are being sold in hardware stores. I did not see anything at all about the termination having to be 3' higher than the OAK. All I saw was on page 12 that stated: Do not locate termination  c) within 3 feet of a building opening or air inlet of *another* appliance;

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/40896/Drolet-Eco-65.html?page=31#manual

Also, there was absolutely no creosote on the termination of the pipe until the fire. These photos were after the fire and after the clean up we did around the stove. I will post a photo of the hopper. There were visible flames.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 22, 2014)

There is a 39" requirement in Canada and there is mention of an even larger clearance 72" for a mechanical air supply inlet which is why I said the meaning of certain words is going to count.

In the US it is at least 36" above any air intake within 10 feet.

ETA: For completeness In the 2010 manual that mechanical air inlet clearance is listed as 6 feet.


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## hyfire (Dec 22, 2014)

Question, when you measure vertical height do you count the fittings as part of your height?  If you don;t then the OP only has about 1 foot of rise...outside.  Next this could be a house problem of neg pressure in basement..  read about the stack effect and how you can test your setup even though its not directed to pellet stoves you get idea...

http://www.thechimneysweep.ca/2stackeffect.html


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 22, 2014)

I'd measure low point on the vent termination to the high point of the air intake extended to the plane of the vent termination if it says above if I was doing it, but I don't know what the measurement rules in either country actually says.  

But I don't go for minimums if I can avoid them.


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 23, 2014)

I will be measuring when I get home later. I see what you are saying about the mechanical air supply smokey. Does the termination actually have to be 6' above or can it be for example 2 feet above but 4 feet over?

Either way, I am having the Fireplace Center sell me a better stove and they will be installing it as well. I have nothing to do with the installation of the stove as my insurance wants it installed by a W.E.T.T. certified tech. Also this way, if I have an issue I can just let them know and they will deal with it. Right now I have to deal with the manufacturer myself since I bought the stove then found an installer. The FPC is familiar with the stoves they sell and know exactly how they work so I feel comfortable knowing that.

My next question is are these clearances for the air supply different for every stove? I have seen horizontal terminations with barely any clearance to the air supply on many different setups. It seems like the FPC isnt too worried about vertical run outside, just as long as you are far enough above grade. They are the largest fireplace store in the city so I would hope they know what they are doing...


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 23, 2014)

You will have to find a certified inspector but the diagonal in your setup would only be 4.47+ feet so I'd say no.

In the interest of full disclosure I am not certified in any aspect of heating systems, I also do not have any interests in stove makers, sales, or service. 

But I have spent many a year reading and using technical manuals and have seen some strange things.

The clearances are somewhat the same, however they can be stove specific which is why you need the correct manuals and the manuals need to be followed.


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## hyfire (Dec 23, 2014)

What are you doing with the old stove?


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## UMainah (Dec 23, 2014)

sass_eco65 said:


> The hopper lid does not seal like other units would... I dont know why. If you look at pictures of the stove, you can actually see that the hopper lid sits up a bit. We had about 2 bags in the hopper when it happened.?



Is this true for all eco65s or is there a defect/issue with this particular unit (hinge bent/jammed, pellets stopping lid from closing, etc)? 
I've never heard of a stove that leaves a 1/4" - 1/2" air gap around the hopper lid.


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## hyfire (Dec 23, 2014)

UMainah said:


> Is this true for all eco65s or is there a defect/issue with this particular unit (hinge bent/jammed, pellets stopping lid from closing, etc)?
> I've never heard of a stove that leaves a 1/4" - 1/2" air gap around the hopper lid.



MIne is like that too, and I think the theory behind it is the air is pulled through the auger so there is always negative pressure in the hopper so the flame can't shoot rearward...providing you have a natural  draft in the stove or via the exhaust blower


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## Deromax (Dec 23, 2014)

The hopper lid on mine is actually vented.  There are slots in the lid and the lid is resting on protruding posts so air can circulate freely.  Go figure!


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## sass_eco65 (Dec 28, 2014)

hyfire said:


> What are you doing with the old stove?



We returned it to RONA and they are shipping it back to the manufacturer.


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## hyfire (Jan 7, 2015)

I feel sad the OP had to get rid of the Stove the eco-65 is a work horse of a stove. I really can;t complain it runs well.  These are sold by ALL the big boxes stores, if they were dangerous they would pull them off the shelves instantly. I do understand that you tried to do everything to code, but I don't think all the pressures in the flue were checked. to assure proper operation, and this led to the hopper burn back, when the power failed.


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## whit (Jan 7, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Ignore longer UPS run times? So. . . . what if I'm away or asleep and the power fails?


If you put a relay in your thermostat circuit that shuts off the thermostat's signal when the power goes out, then a moderate UPS runtime is fine. That's assuming your stove runs on a thermostat. Got excellent advice here a few years back on buying the right kind of relay. Have it sitting behind the stove.


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## Rayterio666 (Mar 11, 2015)

I have the same stove with vent pipe 6' vert than 3 ' hor and then 15' vert.  (4")
My vent is about 12' from the stove to the outside and about 13' bellow top of chimney.

I had the same problem twice, not after a power surge, but while the stove was working!
This is my 3rd ECO-65. The face of the stove warped on top of the door, and thos one is doing it also.  SBI is telling me that my house has a serious neg pressure problem
How can a stove heat hard enough to warp the face of it if it is miising air!  See pic of warp face.   I would also like to send videos of my flames to somebody that would be able to tell me if my stove is starving air.
Tks


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## hyfire (Mar 11, 2015)

Rayterio666 said:


> View attachment 155656
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sure send the video's. But I have an easy fix for the warpage issue, a heat deflector I made, works really well. I can make more if someone is in need. You had a hopper fire with the stove running???????????? I tested my stove with a power failure, no flames at all were going up the auger chute at all. You need to check the pressure in the basement vs the outside and see if its slightly neg or a lot neg!


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## Darren111 (Sep 26, 2015)

I know this is an older thread but for anyone doing research like I have been, this is for them.

Just took delivery of my new eco 65, 2014 model. There is now a rubber sealing gasket around the hopper lid that should prevent any residual smoke from entering the house should any find its way into the hopper. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I guess when I get around to installing I'm going to try and surpass the evl minimums go an extra 3 feet of vertical rise just to be sure.


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