# Why is everyone down on non gassers?



## chadley (Feb 7, 2012)

Today was the first day I got on this site to look around.  I've been researching outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com for the past several months.  It seems like everyone on here is WAY down on non gassers.  Why is that?  Gassers need more maintenace, are more finicky with the size/type of wood burned and cost more.  Many people (non dealers) who have had both gassers and non gassers say there is not as much difference in efficiency between the two.

So my question is: Whats the big deal on this site with the dislike for non gassers?


----------



## webbie (Feb 7, 2012)

You can search and read the threads and find out a lot about the subject, but the short and sweet is that your question, in a general sense, is like asking:
"Why don't people like a 1978 Buick that gets 12 MPG and puts out 10X the pollution of the newer model"
or
"Why don't people use a 386 IBM PC for word processing? After all, it is more than powerful enough to do the job".

If we took a normal wood boiler from 30 years ago (and most "normal: designs are that old or older) and a brand new top-line clean boiler, chances are that the new one would get twice the efficiency and emit VASTLY less in pollutants. 

That's the short story. You can find a lot of threads which might have a longer one!

Welcome to the forums!


----------



## goosegunner (Feb 7, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> Today was the first day I got on this site to look around.  I've been researching outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com for the past several months.  It seems like everyone on here is WAY down on non gassers.  Why is that?  Gassers need more maintenace, are more finicky with the size/type of wood burned and cost more.  Many people (non dealers) who have had both gassers and non gassers say there is not as much difference in efficiency between the two.
> 
> So my question is: Whats the big deal on this site with the dislike for non gassers?



I have never heard anyone that has had both say they had the same efficiency, myself included. I am very happy with the clear exhaust from the stack when my boiler charges the tank. Running for 4-6 hours a day vs the OWB that I had that created copious amounts of creosote and smoke.

gg


----------



## tom in maine (Feb 7, 2012)

The simple answer is the  smoke and the poor efficiency.
There is a learning curve on some gasifier devices, but that is a small tradeoff given the better performance.

Unfortunately, the outdoor wood boiler industry has a bad reputation of making devices that produce a fair bit of smoke and
have brought down the wrath of the EPA and other regulators on the entire wood boiler industry.

My 2 cents worth.


----------



## Yankee (Feb 7, 2012)

I would guess that the outdoor wood furnace site is where you hear about the more maintenance.  I have been burning wood all my life beginning with old fashioned wood furnaces at the age of 14 (42 years ago).  The easiest, simplist wood burning appliance I have ever used is the Frohling boiler that I am now in my second season with.  It is really no more fussy on wood size than any other inside unit I have used.  It likes the wood split and dry, just like my furnace did, like my russian style masonry stove did, like my woodstoves did.  I will leave the efficiency talk to others, except to say that in my existing farmhouse, we used to use more wood, was less comfortable, and spent more time tending the fire that we do now.
Keep an open mind, explore the possibilities, and get the most bang you can for your dollar. 

OH!  Welcome to the Boiler Room.


----------



## hobbyheater (Feb 7, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> So my question is: Whats the big deal on this site with the dislike for non Gasser?



My history with wood burning boilers goes back over 30 years.  On of my early non-Gasser :sick:  created an ooze that would turn a flue cleaning brush into a ball of tar.  The only way to keep the chimney clean was with a twice weekly chimney fire  :exclaim:  Veeeery scary :exclaim: The Gasser I have used for a good part of those 30 years has never needed the chimney cleaned  :cheese:

One of the pictures, I'm told, is not the recommended way of telling if your Gasser is burning clean. ;-)

Welcome to the forum.


----------



## 8nrider (Feb 7, 2012)

i guess it really depends how you burn those old boilers, i have been burning for about 3 hours a day with 4 arms full of good seasoned wood. not really much smoke coming out of the stack and it brings my storage up for another day.Best of all was the price


----------



## Singed Eyebrows (Feb 7, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> Today was the first day I got on this site to look around.  I've been researching outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com for the past several months.  It seems like everyone on here is WAY down on non gassers.  Why is that?  Gassers need more maintenace, are more finicky with the size/type of wood burned and cost more.  Many people (non dealers) who have had both gassers and non gassers say there is not as much difference in efficiency between the two.
> 
> So my question is: Whats the big deal on this site with the dislike for non gassers?


The smoke you see coming out the chimney on a non gasser is fuel & most people here don't want to throw that away or polute. Creosote is a big one for me also, I don't like chimney fires, had one with a non gasser & didn't want another. I think the "many people" are pulling your leg. Gassers have typical low flue gas temps & burn most all the fuel, things that guarantee superior efficiency & not just by a little bit, Randy  BTW, Welcome to Hearth, you are asking some good questions.


----------



## woodsmaster (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm really don't look down on people with non gasser. To each there own. I was going to buy a regular OWB when
I started to research them, I ended up here and boy did I learn a lot. I ended up with a gasser. I have at least twice the
heat load with the addition of my shop and heating my domestic hot water and only burn around 20% more wood than
I did heating my house with an old wood stove. Welcome to the hearth.


----------



## Mushroom Man (Feb 7, 2012)

I am not down on gassers. They are easy to use. The wood is usually not split (at least around here). But they do go through a lot of wood. Two neighbours attest to that. One neighbour with a 2000 sq. ft heating space used 14 bush cords. The other neighbour used 18 cords for a 2600 sq.ft heating space. I'll use 9 or 10 for 4000 sq.ft (incl basement) + 2000 sq.ft of barn/garage +DHW. Same indoor temps. We three heat exclusively with wood. Mine takes more time to C/S/S.   Fuel costs (either money or time) and should be a major factor. The environment likes gassers better too. I can look outside to my neighbours plumes and prove that quickly.

My gasser install was a thousand dollars more than my neighbours. In that cost I have 1500 gallons of storage.

Research carefully and you will choose gasser. I have no doubt.


----------



## Gasifier (Feb 7, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> Today was the first day I got on this site to look around.  I've been researching outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com for the past several months.  It seems like everyone on here is WAY down on non gassers.  Why is that?  Gassers need more maintenace, are more finicky with the size/type of wood burned and cost more.  Many people (non dealers) who have had both gassers and non gassers say there is not as much difference in efficiency between the two.
> 
> So my question is: Whats the big deal on this site with the dislike for non gassers?



I would rather see you burning wood in a non gasser than burning oil, period. But I believe I would rather see you burning a high efficiency natural gas or propane burner than a non gasser. Much cleaner burn, but your fuel will cost you a lot more money. The idea that there is not much difference in efficiency is simply incorrect. Those things being said. If you had to go out and buy a new fossil fuel burning boiler/furnace. Would you buy one that was less efficient and polluted more or buy one that was more efficient and polluted less? If you want an outdoor wood boiler, good for you. Go out and buy an outdoor gasser. Or an indoor gasser and inclose it in an out building. You will be a happy camper/burner. Something else to consider would be putting an indoor gasser in your basement/garage/workshop. (Following code of course.) All the heat that radiates off of your boiler, and there is a lot, will then be heating something that would benefit you to heat, instead of the outdoors. Good luck with whatever you choose inguy. And welcome. I hope you stick around the boiler room, and hearth.com. Check out all the other fourms as well. This is a very cool place.


----------



## chadley (Feb 7, 2012)

okay.  I will take your words for it but I've talked to Earth, Shaver, Hawken, and Hardy dealers, an install man, and 3 OWB owners and they have all said they don't see much difference in the gassers vs. non gassers in efficiency or smoke/pollution. They all have said that the gassers need smaller wood and more maintenance.  These are not including the comments from outdoorfurnaceinfo.com.

Why such a big discrepency between most of you and all of them?  Obviously both sides make sense but you can't both be right.


----------



## hobbyheater (Feb 7, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> okay. I will take your words for it but I've talked to Earth, Shaver, Hawken, and Hardy dealers, an install man, and 3 OWB owners and they have all said they don't see much difference in the gassers vs. non gassers in efficiency



I would love to hear a testimony from one of them that has gone from gasification to none gasification :exclaim:


----------



## muncybob (Feb 7, 2012)

Never owned a non gasser, but I see many in operation around here. From what I have observed, about the only time they don't smoke is when they are not running. My boiler will smoke at start up but quickly changes from smoke to steam coming out of my chimney. To me, that says a lot. I know I would rather have steam than copious amounts of smoke put into the air.
My boiler is not picky about the wood I feed it othern than it being low moisture content and I believe any wood burning device benefits from dry wood. Just because you can burn wet wood doesn't mean you should. My boiler is supposed to be rated at burning 30% mc wood, but I'm not going to do that. Yes I guess the size splits I feed it are smaller than many OWB's will take but my wife doesn't want to deal with any large wood and neither do I first thing in the morning! Besides, smaller split wood is probably drier than large rounds.
I was looking at an OWB when we first decided to burn wood for heat. One factor that swayed me to a gasser is the better efficiency which means less wood to cut which means more free time to do other things in life. Of course, little did I know that I would become a wood cutting addict but I cut wood because I want to.... not because I have to.


----------



## chadley (Feb 7, 2012)

hobbyheater said:
			
		

> inguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you make a good point. I don't know any that started with a gasser and went to a non gasser.  I don't understand why multiple dealers are steering me clear of the gassers when they could sell me one and make more money than they would if I bought the non gasser they are pushing.  Somebody used a car analogy earlier.  Its like me saying to a customer oh no you don't want to buy that brand new mercedes.  You want to buy this 1984 buick.  Why would an OWB dealer do that?


----------



## hobbyheater (Feb 7, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> I don't understand why multiple dealers are steering me clear of the gassers when they could sell me one and make more money than they would if I bought the non gasser they are pushing.



If they :coolgrin:  can sell you a none gasser now, at a later date they will get to sell you a gasser too :exclaim:


----------



## salecker (Feb 7, 2012)

I have a gasser
 I luckely found this site,a ton of info if you want to spend the time reading.
 The reasone the dealers are telling you what they are is because they want to sell the OWB.One reason they want to sell them is because their time is limited,they probly are worried about getting stuck with odsolite inventory.The OWB dealers are like snake oil salemen, talk a great speel then disaper when you need them.
 When i was looking for a unit,i recived allkinds of misinformation.
 Then i was saved by Hearth
 So instead i ended up with a gasser and storage.Very simple to operate.My wife loves it too.She has no problem starting and maintaining a fire.
 Mine is in a dedicated building,no smoke,ash,bus or mess in our house.Most important to us is their is no flame source in our home.This was brought home last week when a family of 4 plus thier freind  died from carbon monoxide in thier home in Whitehorse,leaves were 10x what would set of a detector.I sleep great at nights,having less to worry about.
 Thomas


----------



## willworkforwood (Feb 7, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> I don't understand why multiple dealers are steering me clear of the gassers when they could sell me one and make more money than they would if I bought the non gasser they are pushing.  Somebody used a car analogy earlier.  Its like me saying to a customer oh no you don't want to buy that brand new mercedes.  You want to buy this 1984 buick.  Why would an OWB dealer do that?


One reason might be the fact that some states are in the process of putting regs into place which will eliminate sales of new smoke dragons.  No idea if Indiana is considering that, but the dealers probably figure if not now, then soon - dump them while we still can.  And, that's another reason why the folks here are against these things.  Gassers get dragged into this, along with everything else, and will also get rejected if the companies don't stay ahead of everything that needs to be submitted to the regulatory agency.  The gassers will ultimately be approved for sale, but not before lots of $$ is spent by the builders, complying with the regs.  And that additional cost of doing business has to be passed along, and will ultimately result in a higher-priced gasser   .


----------



## Gasifier (Feb 7, 2012)

hobbyheater said:
			
		

> inguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 :lol: Good one Allan! 

Inguy, you are making the right decision and you will not regret it! Gasser w/storage is the way to go. Will cost you more money up front, but you will save it over the years, and a gasser will last you longer as well. You will have less smoke(energy) going up your chimney. It may take a few more minutes each day in the beginning. But after you get through the initial learning curve, it becomes load it and go. Depending on the weather, I can burn once a day when it is mild out. Store the energy in my buffer tank, and then burn 24 hours later. When it starts to get colder, most of the time I load twice a day. When it gets real cold, which hasn't happened much this year, the wife or I may have to add a couple more pieces at one more time of the day. We love it. Consider setting your system up so you can heat your hot water with an indirect hot water tank. We heat everything, house, garage, and domestic hot water, with wood.


----------



## leaddog (Feb 7, 2012)

Have you ever heard of a ford dealer say that a chevy was a better buy for you. They want to make a sale. The other thing is most OWB dealers have had very little training in heating and air conditioning. I've found that there is even very little knowledge here in the USA on the gassers that is so common overseas. I went from an OWB and knew that it's life was getting short. I started to research other heating and discovered gasifing and started reading up on it. I was taken back as I and most people hadn't heard of it and it's the excepted thing overseas. I will say that almost ony person that thinks bad of the gassers has not understood them. If not for this site I don't think I would have been happy. I just had to learn how to burn. The old idea of cut green and big and fill up that firebox as full as you can idea that the OWB dealers promoted just won't work with the gassers and that IS a good thing. No smoke or very little. less wood consumption, very little polutants, healhtier air, and less fire danger all lead to less time prosessing wood, healthier family, lower insurance, less dependance on the oil man and not worrying about waking up to a chimney fire. looks like a win ,win to me. 
leaddog


----------



## heaterman (Feb 7, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> Today was the first day I got on this site to look around.  I've been researching outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com for the past several months.  It seems like everyone on here is WAY down on non gassers.  Why is that?  Gassers need more maintenace, are more finicky with the size/type of wood burned and cost more.  Many people (non dealers) who have had both gassers and non gassers say there is not as much difference in efficiency between the two.
> 
> So my question is: Whats the big deal on this site with the dislike for non gassers?



Which would you buy?

A Model T for $6-8,000 or a newer car, maybe a Taurus for $20,000 (seeing as how I used Ford in the first part)

What's the difference anyway.......they both go from point A to point B and they both burn gas...so why spend the extra on the Taurus?

Same deal with the wood burner. There is that much difference in performance.  All that smoke you see from a standard wood boiler is extra wood you have to cut, split, haul, stack, load, etc, etc.


----------



## chadley (Feb 7, 2012)

To answer your question; I would rather have a 1984 Ford pick up (instead of the model T) than a 2012 ford pick up.  Too many gadgets on new vehicles to go wrong and it costs more to work on them which is one of the biggest complaints I have heard about gassers.

I think I may be finding a difference here.  We may be talking apples and oranges.  Being on this site, I have seen a lot of stove names I have never heard of before.  The OWB companies that make gassers now are not showing up on this site.  For example, heatmor, heatmaster, shaver, hardy central boiler, hawken and many more.  They are the gassers that I've heard negative things about.  people like their OWB's better than their gassers-partially b/c these companies are new at it will all the EPA guidelines.

So, tell me more about these gassers i've been seeing on here like the orlan, atmos, frohling, econoburn etc.  They don't look weather durable.  Are they meant to be inside?  Are they more durable than say the OWB's?  What about leaking?  Can you give me some brand names to research.  Every site I've been too won't give prices without calling them.  I just want an idea of how much one would cost to heat 2500 sq ft house and 3200 sq ft garage/barn.


----------



## muncybob (Feb 7, 2012)

With rare exception, the gassers are not meant to be exposed to the elements. Many have built sheds of some sort to house them, sectioned off a garage(if code allows), placed in basements, etc. Take the time and do some research here and you'll likley find answers to all your questions....and then some!

Gassers , just like most anything else, cannot be painted with one brush. To say all gassers are complex in build or difficult to run is a rather broad statement that I don't consider applies to my boiler or many others that you can read about here. You may not find online pricing but I had no trouble getting quotes over the phone.


----------



## Noggah (Feb 8, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> To answer your question; I would rather have a 1984 Ford pick up (instead of the model T) than a 2012 ford pick up. Too many gadgets on new vehicles to go wrong and it costs more to work on them which is one of the biggest complaints I have heard about gasser.
> 
> I think I may be finding a difference here. We may be talking apples and oranges. Being on this site, I have seen a lot of stove names I have never heard of before. The OWB companies that make gasser now are not showing up on this site. For example, heatmor, heatmaster, shaver, hardy central boiler, hawken and many more. They are the gasser that I've heard negative things about. people like their OWB's better than their gasser-partially b/c these companies are new at it will all the EPA guidelines.
> 
> So, tell me more about these gasser i've been seeing on here like the orlan, atmos, frohling, econoburn etc. They don't look weather durable. Are they meant to be inside? Are they more durable than say the OWB's? What about leaking? Can you give me some brand names to research. Every site I've been too won't give prices without calling them. I just want an idea of how much one would cost to heat 2500 sq ft house and 3200 sq ft garage/barn.



Inguy, you are right about the gasser in your last paragraph. Most are indoor gasser, but alot of people seem to build sheds around them or install them in a shop/garage. 

I am using a Central Boiler outside gasser and could not be happier. I split my wood but leave it quite large. As long as its dry its good. I am using very little wood and im getting burns well in excess of 12 hours. The maintenance is minimal. I don't know who is telling you that gasser need alot of maintenance, but in my case this is not true. I scrape the sides when I fill it, just because I want to. I clean ash at 2-3 week intervals and there is not much. I have cleaned the air holes once this season. Other than that it takes care of itself.

Mine is the e-classic 2400. With pipe and parts and installing it myself I have about 13k in the setup. I am heating about 4600sf of radiant floors and domestic hot water in Maine. I have used exactly 0 fossils this year.

It seems that Central may have had issues in the past, but my experience has been nothing but pleasant. (Knock on wood)


----------



## goosegunner (Feb 8, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> hobbyheater said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't believe any of the companies  you listed above even make gasifiers so why would their dealers tell you to buy something they don't sell?

gg


----------



## martyinmi (Feb 8, 2012)

inguy,
   If you are going to buy an OWB, you really ought to buy a gasser from one of the more reputable manufacturers. If a dealer told you that there isn't much difference in efficiency between a conventional OWB and a gasifying OWB he is telling you a bold faced lie. In most cases you will go through half the wood with a gasser. There isn't any extra work in wood preparation, as if you want a conventional OWB to function properly wood needs to be split and especially seasoned properly. There is a little extra maintenance involved, but from my experience operating two different OWB gassers, that maintenance only takes about 10-15 minutes/week.

   I'll wager that the biggest reason the dealers are trying to push a conventional OWB on you is because they have too many in stock and the new EPA regulations for your state will be out soon, so they want to move their inventory.

   A gasifying OWB is the only way to go if want to keep the mess, smoke and fire hazard outside. A Garn or Wood Gun would be your best choice for a gasifying IWB.


----------



## Rory (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't understand the point about maintenance.  Other than cleaning out the ashes (I do for every burn), there is very little maintenance.  Brush the tubes out a few times a year, maybe clean the pipe once a year, and never, ever clean the chimney.  I can't imagine an OWB having less maintenance.


----------



## maple1 (Feb 8, 2012)

So my question is: Whats the big deal on other sites with the like for non gassers?


----------



## mikeyny (Feb 8, 2012)

didn't read the entire thread but, i have been burnin an old non-gasser 502 tarm, good wood, no, and i mean NO smoke throughout the burn. Boiler is undersized so it burns flat out for about 3 hrs, no storage, but  big house. load it once in the morn,  1 and a half at nite. Clean burn, good heat,but, efficient?? I really dont know, never checked it. I do like the gassers, but i could never justify ( afford) one. I would rather spend my extra money on insulation, and air sealling. a more efficient house use's  much less fuel no matter what you heat with.


----------



## martyinmi (Feb 8, 2012)

Rory,
   I would expect time spent on maintenance on an OWB gasser would be similar to what you do. Cleaning transfer tubes regularly yields the best efficiencies.
maple1,
   People who own conventional OWB's do not like to be forced to do anything they don't want to do. They are no different than you and I. They like the routine they have, as well as the lack of utility bills. They also like the extra set of variables they have associated with their OWB's- in that their units are more forgiving on the quality and quantity of fuel they can consume. I was on board that ship only three years ago. I have since jumped that ship, but I've not forgotten the experience. So many current gasser owners, both indoor and outdoor, HAVE forgotten that ride. That is offensive to the conventional OWB owner.


----------



## chadley (Feb 8, 2012)

as for the companies I listed not selling gassers, you are mistaken.  Look them up.  For example, hawken as the GX 10 gasser.  From what I've read, they (gassers) are relatively new in the OWB market with all the new EPA regs.

As for what people are so high on the conventional OWB's-  As mentioned by a previous post-wood consumption is big.  They will burn anything.  They will burn large rounds that don't have to be split unlike the gassers.  The prep time people mention on here in relation to the amount of wood burned in a non gasser is equalized with the amount of prep time it takes to cut/split wood small enough to fit in gassers. (this is their opinion-I'm just trying to answer your question).  Another pro (in their opinion) is maintenance.  They swear up and down there is more maintenance to gassers.  there are more "gadgets" and things to go wrong on gassers. They think that gassers are more particular on what size, type, dryness of wood they will burn (which adds prep time). They like the simplicity of the conventional OWB's.  the price is another issue.  They don't see the cost/benefit relationship in buying a gasser.  They don't think its worth the money and it is hard to make their money back.  Smoke-another issue.  As long as you burn dry wood, they don't see much more smoke than in gassers.  These are just  a few of the things other sites are so high on with conventional OWB's


----------



## DaveBP (Feb 8, 2012)

> I would rather spend my extra money on insulation, and air sealling. a more efficient house useâ€™s much less fuel no matter what you heat with.



Too bad everybody that can't afford a shiny new (real) gassification boiler system doesn't feel this way. 

Minimizing heat losses from the building is far more important than what type of equipment you heat with.


----------



## Tennman (Feb 8, 2012)

Are the other sites populated with as many ex-OWB, now gasser owners as here at Hearth? I've not returned to other sites on this topic after finding Hearth Boiler Room and being where you are now 4 years ago. The guys that hang out here are (from my limited experience with other sites) the most experienced (many going back 30+ years) and technically knowledgeable (quite a few professional installers). I was going to buy a Hardy for all the reasons you sited and the fact there are so many of them in our area. Found this site and so glad I did. Frankly I'm surprised at how few of the ex-OWB guys are replying to your post here. Usually this topic brings them out of the woodworks. Do some key word searches here. Your question has been discussed so often could be the guys are bored answering. I bought a BioMass gasser based on the experience here and I KNOW I made the right choice. Just keep reading and compare the depth of experience to the other boiler sites you've been to. Let us know your impressions.


----------



## chadley (Feb 8, 2012)

Tennman said:
			
		

> Are the other sites populated with as many ex-OWB, now gasser owners as here at Hearth? I've not returned to other sites on this topic after finding Hearth Boiler Room and being where you are now 4 years ago. The guys that hang out here are (from my limited experience with other sites) the most experienced (many going back 30+ years) and technically knowledgeable (quite a few professional installers). I was going to buy a Hardy for all the reasons you sited and the fact there are so many of them in our area. Found this site and so glad I did. Frankly I'm surprised at how few of the ex-OWB guys are replying to your post here. Usually this topic brings them out of the woodworks. Do some key word searches here. Your question has been discussed so often could be the guys are bored answering. I bought a BioMass gasser based on the experience here and I KNOW I made the right choice. Just keep reading and compare the depth of experience to the other boiler sites you've been to. Let us know your impressions.



  Don't you hate when a new guy comes on and brings up a topic that has already been beaten to death in the previous months/years.  I know what you mean after being members on other forums for a while.  Sorry.


----------



## pwschiller (Feb 8, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> as for the companies I listed not selling gassers, you are mistaken.  Look them up.  For example, hawken as the GX 10 gasser.


I just went to the Hawken website and found no mention of the GX10 being a gassifier. In fact, under the "How it Works" tab it has the following description:


> Once the water is heated to 180 degrees F, a blower fan that is feeding air to the fire is automatically turned off and the damper is closed.  This starves the fire of oxygen and saves wood.  Fortunately, wood is a natural and renewable fuel that has been used since the beginning of time.  Without oxygen, the wood will smolder until the water drops to 160 degrees at which temperature the blower fan automatically turns on again.  Therefore, the water in the water jacket is constantly maintained between 160 and 180 degrees


If the GX10 does have a secondary chamber, it certainly couldn't gassify for very long after coming out of smolder mode, since it only has a 107 gallon water capacity.

As for why people are down on OWBs, this is from my neighbor's OWB in action:


----------



## leaddog (Feb 8, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> Tennman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't be sorry as any question is good. All of us here started this way. I so glad I found this site 3 or 4 years ago as there just wasn't much info else where. I had desided on getting a gasser before I found the site and had done a lot of research and had come to the conclusion that storage was needed but most of the dealers were down playing the need for it because it added to the cost so it discuraged people from buying. It's very hard to change peoples thinking and to get them to spend money when all those people out there with OWB are telling them different. But from my experience and from the great knowledge here I'm really glad I went the way I did. 
So any questions you have ask away. The pro's are great to help and us do-it-ourselves that have made lots of mistakes are very will to share how we would do things different. Just remember, You will hear DRY WOOD alot here as that is the most common mistake made. That goes for all wood burning even in an OWB. 
leaddog


----------



## Tennman (Feb 8, 2012)

No not really inguy..... unless after 20-30 ex-OWB guys give their testimonies and the newbie still says.... "yeah but...". Those of us that hang out here just because we love the whole process have seen lots of instances of newbies standing on the cliff wanting to jump. We say... don't do it... it'll hurt... they still wanna jump.... we say it'll really hurt... they say... but?? we say... well have at then. Free will is just a wonderful, dangerous thing. But no, you're just one of the MANY newbies that come thru here all the time, just like we all were once wanting the best advice. Whether you take it or not is your business. But no... don't hate it.


----------



## Tennman (Feb 8, 2012)

Pete, that pic is priceless in this discussion. You know what they say as far as the value of a picture. Great shut up juice.


----------



## stee6043 (Feb 8, 2012)

One thought I always have when surfing forums (and it seems entirely applicable to this thread) is that almost EVERYONE on the internet is an expert, with few exceptions.

The OWB user sees absolutely no need for all the fancy controls on a gasser.  "Waste of time and money, I can't possibly split my rounds down to kindling, it would take me thirty three years to get my payback on a gasser".

The gasser users is disgusted to drive by a house bathed in a fresh plume of smoke from the OWB in the backyard.  "Idiot wood burners, bad for all of us, the EPA will get them and their deer carcas burning brother".

The outdorr gasser user is absolutely dumbfounded that anyone would ever consider putting a boiler indoors.  "I would be swimming in wood dust and dirt if I had to haul all that wood into my basement every day.  Not a chance, they have no business being inside".

The indoor gasser user refuses to load wood in anything other than boxers and a t-shirt.  "I don't care if I smoke my wife out again this weekend, these slippers are so cozy and I don't want my coffee to get cold".

The list goes on and on.  Real world advice from real people should always be sought.  Forums are useful but misinformation abounds.  And another important factor is your local dealer support.  If you have to drive 1,000 miles to get to the nearest gasser dealer but the nearest OWB dealer is 2 miles away, whatcha gonna do?


----------



## woodsmaster (Feb 8, 2012)

I recently worked for a guy that had an owb. every day when I left to go home my van stunk like creosote. Every time 
the boiler came out of idle his neighbors house got smoked out. I Know if I was his neighbor I wouldn't be very happy. You could just see the heat dumping out the chimney and it looked like if you put your hand above the stack it would  burn you in an instant.


----------



## Hydronics (Feb 8, 2012)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> One thought I always have when surfing forums (and it seems entirely applicable to this thread) is that almost EVERYONE on the internet is an expert, with few exceptions.
> 
> The OWB user sees absolutely no need for all the fancy controls on a gasser.  "Waste of time and money, I can't possibly split my rounds down to kindling, it would take me thirty three years to get my payback on a gasser".
> 
> ...



I have to agree, some people just get something in their head and like to pontificate based on opinion. At the end of the day if your setup works for you and you're not negatively affecting anyone else, who's to argue...


----------



## kopeck (Feb 8, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> as for the companies I listed not selling gassers, you are mistaken.  Look them up.  For example, hawken as the GX 10 gasser.  From what I've read, they (gassers) are relatively new in the OWB market with all the new EPA regs.
> 
> As for what people are so high on the conventional OWB's-  As mentioned by a previous post-wood consumption is big.  They will burn anything.  They will burn large rounds that don't have to be split unlike the gassers.  The prep time people mention on here in relation to the amount of wood burned in a non gasser is equalized with the amount of prep time it takes to cut/split wood small enough to fit in gassers. (this is their opinion-I'm just trying to answer your question).  Another pro (in their opinion) is maintenance.  They swear up and down there is more maintenance to gassers.  there are more "gadgets" and things to go wrong on gassers. They think that gassers are more particular on what size, type, dryness of wood they will burn (which adds prep time). They like the simplicity of the conventional OWB's.  the price is another issue.  They don't see the cost/benefit relationship in buying a gasser.  They don't think its worth the money and it is hard to make their money back.  Smoke-another issue.  As long as you burn dry wood, they don't see much more smoke than in gassers.  These are just  a few of the things other sites are so high on with conventional OWB's



I just have to comment on the large round bit.  From what I've seen a lot of guys that have these things do very little to prep their wood before burning and are sort of proud about this fact.  In their defense I remember going to the fair and the guys selling these things drove that point home that you didn't even need to season your wood, just cut into manageable chunks and you are good to go.

Here's the thing, you can get wet wood to burn BUT you waste so much of the woods energy evaporating the water out before it will burn properly.  The wood wants to dry one way or another, one way (split, stack, season) you let it do it on it's own, the other (cut and chuck) you pay for by having to burn more of it in order to get the same amount of heat.

Pretty much just because it will work doesn't mean it's working as well as it should.

I looked at OWBs, in the end I went with a Tarm Solo Innova.  I'm in my first year and still getting the kinks worked out but I like the fact that I get more out of a cord of wood with this setup then I ever would with a conventional boiler, in doors or out.  For what it's worth I don't think the Tarm is all the complicated.  It's a simple design, no really "magic" going on.

K


----------



## martyinmi (Feb 8, 2012)

Tennman said:
			
		

> Pete, that pic is priceless in this discussion. You know what they say as far as the value of a picture. Great shut up juice.



   Why would you type something so darn stupid? Lots of really great advice on this topic, some not so great, and then you type before YOU THINK! Who could blame someone if they went out and bought the most inefficient unit out there just to spite you and the very few other narrow minded individuals like yourself? We are in this together,can't you see that? If all OWB's are banned, you can bet all wood fueled home heating appliances will be too. OWB owners, both conventional and gassers, have to have indoor mass storage owners outnumbered by at least 100-1, if not numerically much higher, and their(our) lobbying power is much greater than yours. Are you seeing where I am going with this? We can't educate by attempting to make someone feel inferior or unintelligent. It obviously backfires sometimes :roll: 

stee6043-
   Excellent post! And good choice of beer too.


----------



## Tennman (Feb 8, 2012)

I think if you read my previous posts in this thread and others going back quite a few years I  think you'll find I treat people respectfully here. My mistake was to use a phrase common to us southern boys that basically means that says it all. So to Inguy I apologize if it was taken disrespectfully. there are many terms we use in Tenn or Ala jokingly which I'm Sure are foreign to someone in Mich. but the point is well taken and it is not of my history here to insult anyone. In the future I'll be more careful with our colloquialisms.


----------



## huffdawg (Feb 9, 2012)

Yes thats true Tennman ,  it funny how sometimes when you write something on a forum it can be construed by others in many different  ways.    Especially when other members can't see facial expressions or mannurisms.    Damn no spell check on fast reply!..   

Where can I buy shut up juice, I think my wife needs a drink. :lol: 


Huff


----------



## ozzie88 (Feb 9, 2012)

Hello,  I have owened both and would NOT have anything but a Gasser.   Thats it in a nut shell.   Do your looking around you will see.


----------



## hoogie (Feb 9, 2012)

to indiana guy, i'm in north part of indiana...To my belief indiana companys cannot sell reg. owbs anymore the only thing they can do is sell what is already on there lot from inventory before IDEM passed the laws. Thats a good reason to push you towards a nongasser...as for me in my previous post i have pics of my gasser runnin beside my neighbors reg. owb and both are the same brand mind you and you can see the difference in the smoke output. And for being picky...mines not i have an empyer pro200 there is only one moving part on that forced air gasser. you clean out the tubes every 2 weeks which takes 10mins and remove the ash from the secondary burn chamber thats it...and mines a outside unit...fill it forget it..till the next fill....As for wood consumption...lol like i said my neighbor burns as much wood as i do and his house is 900sq. compared to my 2000sq house. As for wood size mine takes that same length 24-25" as reg. owbs. But to each there own I did alot of resurch and i went with a simply gasser with no moving parts and tubes that were easy to clean...unlike someothers on here lol where ya need to use a paper clip????check out empyer...i noticed that one wasnt on your list....just a happy owner of one...Hoogie


----------



## Tennman (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks Huff, Next time we fire up Bertha I'll send you some fine Tennessee sipping shut up juice.Our holler was famously known as haunted...... to keep folks away from the still back in the day. Sure hope revenuers don't visit Hearth. Ah shoot... I probably just pissed off a revenuer now....


----------



## heaterman (Feb 10, 2012)

martyinmi said:
			
		

> Tennman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I could figure out how to get a picture off my cell phone I would surely post it up on this thread. It was a clear morning a few weeks ago and I snapped a picture of a CB 7260 that is on a farm about 2 miles away as the crow flies. The picture quality is cell phonish but you can clearly see that the smoke nearly obliterates a quarter section of land downwind. Brings new meaning to the word breathtaking........


----------



## heaterman (Feb 10, 2012)

hoogie said:
			
		

> to indiana guy, i'm in north part of indiana...To my belief indiana companys cannot sell reg. owbs anymore the only thing they can do is sell what is already on there lot from inventory before IDEM passed the laws. Thats a good reason to push you towards a nongasser...as for me in my previous post i have pics of my gasser runnin beside my neighbors reg. owb and both are the same brand mind you and you can see the difference in the smoke output. And for being picky...mines not i have an empyer pro200 there is only one moving part on that forced air gasser. you clean out the tubes every 2 weeks which takes 10mins and remove the ash from the secondary burn chamber thats it...and mines a outside unit...fill it forget it..till the next fill....As for wood consumption...lol like i said my neighbor burns as much wood as i do and his house is 900sq. compared to my 2000sq house. As for wood size mine takes that same length 24-25" as reg. owbs. But to each there own I did alot of resurch and i went with a simply gasser with no moving parts and tubes that were easy to clean...unlike someothers on here lol where ya need to use a paper clip????check out empyer...i noticed that one wasnt on your list....just a happy owner of one...Hoogie



This statement is true. Once dealer stock of non EPA units is gone, no more can be sold or brought into the state. This should be a huge factor in anyone's decision making process. The dealers are going to have to push whatever their chosen brand is selling which complies and the customers are going to have to hope it works. A prudent person would go with something that has a long and proven track record rather than volunteering to be the guinea pig for the factory. 

I will however say once more that the EPA PhaseII testing is basically now acknowledged to be a farce at best and fraud and the worst. Buyer beware when purchasing one of these units. 
Go with something US made like Econoburn if you want a traditional style gasifier or Garn, the grand daddy of them all if you want storage with no muss, no fuss installation. Buy your boiler once, install it right and be done with it for 20+ years.


----------



## martyinmi (Feb 10, 2012)

Hmmmmm....
   Funny how when an EPA accredited lab tests an OWB gasser their findings are considered "a farce at best and fraud and the worst", but when a mass storage unit is tested by one of these same labs the results are accepted as gospel truth. Then you have a particular dealer stretching the EPA's findings(as posted by Garn). All I can say is "buyer beware when purchasing one of these units".

   Go with something that sits outside for a "no muss no fuss installation". Buy it once, install it right, operate it properly, keep the mess and fire hazard outside, and be done with it for 20 years!


----------



## Frozen Canuck (Feb 10, 2012)

Well you & I may not like it Marty, however virtually all of the science of clean & efficient burning of wood is on the side of the Gassers found on this forum, not the OWB's. Just the way it is. 
As far as the EPA being the laughing stock on this issue, with the test results they accepted as the "truth" from the OWB co's, well many of us had our laugh on that one. You can read past threads & learn what members had to say about the crib wood results that the EPA accepted from labs chosen by the manufacturers not the EPA. 
What possessed the EPA to accept results that were & still are physically impossible is beyond me. Big part of the reason it was such a laugh & now the EPA has removed that data from they're site, wonder why?

Maybe it was the 99% eff OWB that had no condensate drain, not sure how they pulled that off as at 99% they were well into the condensing range, that OWB should have been just peeing water out of a condensate drain. Perhaps it was the fact that that OWB & a few others were claiming eff #'s that no N.G. appliance had been able to achieve, even though they have been working on condensing N.G. units for over a decade. 
Leaves one wondering did they use magic wood? Sure got some magic results, if you believe in magic that is!
Me, I will stick with peer reviewed science. The OWB co's are just about out of magic.

BTW what is the benefit of recommending buying a non compliant unit to a user in a state that will soon be removing non compliant units from it's list of approved sales. 
Won't that user have a unit that they can't get parts/dealer support for?


----------



## Frozen Canuck (Feb 10, 2012)

Y'know Garn & all the other established gassers should be upset, after all isn't that magic OWB a full 10% more eff than any of them?


----------



## heaterman (Feb 10, 2012)

inguy said:
			
		

> To answer your question; I would rather have a 1984 Ford pick up (instead of the model T) than a 2012 ford pick up.  Too many gadgets on new vehicles to go wrong and it costs more to work on them which is one of the biggest complaints I have heard about gassers.
> 
> I think I may be finding a difference here.  We may be talking apples and oranges.  Being on this site, I have seen a lot of stove names I have never heard of before.  The OWB companies that make gassers now are not showing up on this site.  For example, heatmor, heatmaster, shaver, hardy central boiler, hawken and many more.  They are the gassers that I've heard negative things about.  people like their OWB's better than their gassers-partially b/c these companies are new at it will all the EPA guidelines.
> 
> So, tell me more about these gassers i've been seeing on here like the orlan, atmos, frohling, econoburn etc.  They don't look weather durable.  Are they meant to be inside?  Are they more durable than say the OWB's?  What about leaking?  Can you give me some brand names to research.  Every site I've been too won't give prices without calling them.  I just want an idea of how much one would cost to heat 2500 sq ft house and 3200 sq ft garage/barn.



Speaking to your first question as to why many of the OWB companies don't push their gassers; 

In many cases the first attempts by these companies have not and do not work very well. Witness the fact that the big guy on the block, Central Boiler, is already on their second iteration and from what I understand from a CB dealer out east the company has stopped backing up the first and left dealers and customers hanging in many cases. I know a guy that kept all of his repair receipts and after a couple years and nearly $5K out of his pocket in non warranty repairs got a lawyer involved and made CB buy it back. Talking with end users in my travels and after installing a few different brands here locally, I hear pretty much the same stories all over.  
It must be said though that in probably 50% of the cases, poor quality unseasoned wood is being used. No gasser out there is going to do good with that. My son in law discovered that with his Econoburn and everyone else here has also. Traditional OWB's due to the nature of their design will "digest" green wood. And I do mean "digest" because what happens in there really can't be called combustion. A traditional OWB gets away with that due to the nature of the design, Most are more like a pot of water hanging over a camp fire than an actual boiler meant to transfer maximum heat value of the fuel into the water. 

As far as the design of the European style gasification boilers is concerned you are correct. These are not outdoor rated units. There are a couple manufacturers that have enclosed their gasification unit and made it an outdoor capable product, Econoburn for one, but any of them can be installed in an outbuiling and piped to your house the same as an OWB. This is by far the most common route around here. You have to remember that these  units were and are designed in Europe where there are realistic emission laws and such a thing as an OWB does not exist. I remember telling some of the big wigs at Viessmannn (Germany) about outdoor wood burners and they could not for the life of them understand why anyone would put heating equipment outdoors.

Pricing: You'll find that a decent outdoor gasification unit like the Portage and Main will start out at around $11,000 with the next model up jumping to about $15K. (Your sq ft might work better with the larger one)  Econoburn's outdoor rated unit will be in the same ballpark. Others will be similar. 
If you consider an indoor unit for either your basement or in an outbuilding (my first recommendation always) You can drop the cost to around $9K and up for a unit sized to heat your load. Added to that would be the cost of storage, which IMHO should be and probably some day will be, mandatory. For a unit with lot's of storage built in like a Garn 1500, which would run your load nicely, you would be looking at about $13,500 depending on the choice of flue. (Vertical flue a few hundred higher)  

Gassers by their nature are a bit more complex, with Garn being the exception there, and they may require a little bit of a learning curve for satisfactory operation. I think that has a lot of the OWB dealers a bit gunshy about them also. It certainly would not be too much for someone like yourself who is not afraid to ask questions.
The dealers don't understand them in many cases and they don't want to educate themselves or their customers. In addition, the sad reality is that if they started really telling the truth about gasification efficiency, it would pretty much expose what they have been saying about the traditional OWB's for years as a lie.

Hope that gives you a little guidance.

Send me a PM here if you want. I'd be happy to help you talk it out.


----------



## barkeatr (Feb 10, 2012)

Profab has an outdoor EPA gasser that is in line, or less, than the prices noted for the Portage and Main above.  I agree that some of the outdoor gassers are complex, and that is why i chose the profab, its very simple in design.  There are several happy users on hearth.com.  While storage will improve performance, it is not required for the profab.   They work great.  Dont forget to add the cost of a fairly large insulated building to the price of a Garn and of course the insulating pipe ( which can cost as much as the gasser) when comparing indoor to outdoor solutions.


----------



## maple1 (Feb 10, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

> hoogie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Even if accepting that the EPAII testing was a farce, that does not mean that Phase II OWB gassers are not worth considering - does it? I think there are some very good ones being built now that are not deserving of being condemned just because they were efficiency tested with a faulty testing procedure - that seems more of an EPA problem that an OWB one.


----------



## hoogie (Feb 10, 2012)

maple1 said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There inlies the only problem that i see with this site...everyone on here or most is pro inside models...yadda yadda...My profab emyper pro200 is url listed...I could put the unit in the basement or in the garage if i choose to. i didnt because i like the mess outside close to my wood pile. heck of a lot less luggin the wood around and i can use larger pieces than alot of the indoor models. as for epa...i'm doing my part as a responsable wood burner buyin the latest and cleanest burnin equipment out there...Some owb should be commended on there persuit to higher performances...but ya just cant get some on this site to believe that or its just to hard for them to admit there is a place for owbs. Dont get me wrong i really get a lot off this site its help alot and made me a better burner with a lot of suggestions that i've now put in place....Just my 2 cents worth...Hoogie


----------



## willworkforwood (Feb 10, 2012)

hoogie said:
			
		

> There inlies the only problem that i see with this site...everyone on here or most is pro inside models...yadda yadda...My profab emyper pro200 is url listed...I could put the unit in the basement or in the garage if i choose to. i didnt because i like the mess outside close to my wood pile. heck of a lot less luggin the wood around and i can use larger pieces than alot of the indoor models. as for epa...i'm doing my part as a responsable wood burner buyin the latest and cleanest burnin equipment out there...Some owb should be commended on there persuit to higher performances...but ya just cant get some on this site to believe that or its just to hard for them to admit there is a place for owbs. Dont get me wrong i really get a lot off this site its help alot and made me a better burner with a lot of suggestions that i've now put in place....Just my 2 cents worth...Hoogie


I think that most folks on this site use the term OWB in reference to all of the non-gasification smoke dragons. Based on what's on their web site, and what's been written here about the Profab 200, that unit appears to be a gasification boiler, and would not be in the "OWB" group that we're so negative about. So, maybe you would get better mileage if you start calling your boiler a gasser, and not an OWB ;-).   
But, that being said, I read the following on the Profab site: "The Empyre Pro Series operates best with large seasoned logs, making wood splitting obsolete." This past Summer, I happened upon a very nice oak tree out in the woods - down, but propped up 3 feet in the air on both ends by big rock formations - no ground contact (or even close). This tree had been down for so many years that the bark had disintegrated - not a trace or bark remained anywhere. The wood was still high quality, no bugs or rot, but had just begun the process of "turning over". Bucked up, it felt dry and looked dry. I thought I had finally found the legendary "seasoned log". Brought it home and split up a bunch.   33% - everywhere :roll:.   So I would like to find out from Profab how to create a "seasoned (20%) log". IMO, they are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to convert the existing OWB unsplit-log mentality over to their gassers by promoting the use of "seasoned logs". They will not try to do EPA testing with "seasoned logs", so why keep on pushing that ridiculous idea just to make a sale?


----------



## hoogie (Feb 10, 2012)

I think that most folks on this site use the term OWB in reference to all of the non-gasification smoke dragons. Based on what's on their web site, and what's been written here about the Profab 200, that unit appears to be a gasification boiler, and would not be in the "OWB" group that we're so negative about. So, maybe you would get better mileage if you start calling your boiler a gasser, and not an OWB ;-).   
But, that being said, I read the following on the Profab site: "The Empyre Pro Series operates best with large seasoned logs, making wood splitting obsolete." This past Summer, I happened upon a very nice oak tree out in the woods - down, but propped up 3 feet in the air on both ends by big rock formations - no ground contact (or even close). This tree had been down for so many years that the bark had disintegrated - not a trace or bark remained anywhere. The wood was still high quality, no bugs or rot, but had just begun the process of "turning over". Bucked up, it felt dry and looked dry. I thought I had finally found the legendary "seasoned log". Brought it home and split up a bunch.   33% - everywhere :roll:.   So I would like to find out from Profab how to create a "seasoned (20%) log". IMO, they are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to convert the existing OWB unsplit-log mentality over to their gassers by promoting the use of "seasoned logs". They will not try to do EPA testing with "seasoned logs", so why keep on pushing that ridiculous idea just to make a sale?[/quote]


I so understand what your sayin, and for the most part i do refer to my burner as a gasser, but its just an owb gasser lol...and your right about the rounds thing...I split everything at least once just to aid in drying time...I put wood in that is somewhere from 19% to 23% that is what profab stated was optimal moister for this and there burner...


----------



## Como (Feb 10, 2012)

This is from the Windhager (Austrian) site.

I would not call it an OWB but they make what they call a Bio Cabin for their equipment.

I have seen some in the UK, larger installs, they were in outbuildings.

You can gassify 35% wood, but you need to chip it first.

In a UK environment an OWB would be difficult, firstly most people will not have the space for it and then there would be the chimney issue plus of course it is wet/cold/damp in winter! Having it inside something makes much more sense. Plus of course the building are on average smaller and so is the equipment.

Where I am it is much colder, but we do not have the mind numbing dampness.


----------



## muncybob (Feb 10, 2012)

Hoogie, maybe you have an OWBG ?


----------



## pwschiller (Feb 10, 2012)

hoogie said:
			
		

> I think that most folks on this site use the term OWB in reference to all of the non-gasification smoke dragons.


Even the generalization of all non-gasification OWB as "smoke dragons" isn't necessarily fair. I thought that the picture that I posted answered the "Why is everyone down on non gassers" question pretty simply, at least from the viewpoint of the general public. There are lots of OWB owners who are burning green wood (or trash), which has made them a target of the EPA. Most people don't understand the merits of drying your wood and many of the people who do can't be bothered. 

One of CB owners in my area just built a nice big woodshed this past year. Even before that, I never saw the thick plumes of smoke coming from their OWB that you see in other places. Their unit certainly isn't smoke-free, but it's far better than the thick smoke that you see coming out of some people's chimneys from their wood stoves. 

I have a nice view of the surrounding mountains from my house. This time of year, instead of the mountains being the mix of green and brown that you might expect, they appear as more of a grayish-blue. I'm pretty sure it's mainly from wood smoke.

Gassifier or not, it doesn't seem reasonable to expect a cordwood boiler with a half burned load of wood to shut down instantly or to quickly reignite at a high temperature. You're going to get some smoke if that's how your boiler operates, although clearly some designs are better than others. If you want a wood boiler that heats on demand with very little smoke, then reducing the size of the wood and only feeding it into the burn chamber as needed is a good solution, which is what pellet boilers do.

I think that the best thing that we can all do to not give wood burning in general a bad rap is to dry our wood and try to enlighten our friends to do the same.


----------



## martyinmi (Feb 10, 2012)

Pete-
   Very good, intelligent post. Points will be well taken.
maple1-
   See above reply to Pete.
canuck-
   You are obviously NOT familiar with the phrase "Sometimes it is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" are you?
heaterman-
   If you'd like to add some validity to your posts stop typing with the mindset of a salesman.


----------



## Gasifier (Feb 10, 2012)

I think that the best thing that we can all do to not give wood burning in general a bad rap is to dry our wood and try to enlighten our friends to do the same.

Yes. Good subject to focus on Pete. Dry wood. It does not matter if you will be burning in wood furnace, wood stove, or boiler. With any boiler, the benefits of storage next.


----------



## skfire (Feb 10, 2012)

http://www.cd3wd.com/cd3wd_40/JF/425/20-439.pdf

Pages 65-77, especially the section regarding Benjamin Frankiln

Proper practices were spoken of by Ben Franklin as well as the Downdraft pyrolitic (gassification if you will..) principle. 

The shortage of fuel in the colonies was becoming as bad a problem as the smoke and fire  issues. 
We are not in uncharted territory, nor are we re discovering the wheel. The wise approach is studying history's lessons and some common sense paired with a scientific approach.

We are all in the same boat, is sounding right, but only if we are all rowing together.

Scott


----------



## leaddog (Feb 11, 2012)

I have had several different types of heating systems over the many years including the OWB. I thought it was the greatest thing to heat with. It had so many advantages. No smoke in the house (except when the wind blew toward the house), No fire danger, could cut the wood and just throw it in, If you could pick it up or roll it in it was good to go, No splitting, fill it to the top and you wouldn't have to fill it again untill the next day. I even tried the tire thing, even got paid to take them. They didn't work out to well cause that tire soot would get on the snow and the better half didn't like me tracking in that sticky stuff. Sure I used alot of wood but I had lots. When my last one was getting about 4years old I knew I't wasn't going to last much longer and wanted something better so I started to look on line.I started to learn about gasification and could see the advantages. There wasn't any I could see and it seemed like no one in Michigan had even heard of them. With my recearch I desided on a wood gun 180 and had gotten a price from the manufacturer. Thought about it for a couple of weeks and called the manufacturer and asked if there was any in Michigan to look at. They told me they had just signed up a dealer in MI and there was one in the center to the state and I could go look at that one with him. I went and looked at it and liked it even though he didn't have storage I could see that storage was really needed. I went and was going to order but because they now had a dealer the price went up $2000. They said I could say I was getting it for someone in ohio and they would sell it to me but other wise I had to buy from the dealer. I don't play that way so I went with my second choice the eko80. 
After I got it installed I was having lots of trouble and wasn't happy at all. I found this site and started getting advise on how to make this work. My dealer was very helpful but like everyone else didn't really know how these things worked. Most every one here and the dealers were learning together. Overseas they have been running these things for years and it is second nature but because of us running those OWB we were doing every thing wrong. 
All the advantages I THOUGHT of the OWB were really bad. way to much smoke, burning green cold wood, bubble wrap lines, two small of lines, throwing in huge rounds, and having it and the wood setting out in the cold was making me burn way to much.
The second year I had my wood split and dry my eko was in a shed along with room to store wood so it would be warm when I put it in, My lines were double 1in pex foamed in place with 2000gal storage. I now use way less than half the wood running year long and now heating my house, hottub, and waterbed and use NO propane. I don't have second thoughts at all It was the best move I ever made. I would never advise someone to buy any thing but a gasser but can understand if someone does. But take every thing a OWB dealer says because most of them a just people with very little knowledge. Most are just doing it as a sideline. Take this for what it's worth. I have no axe to grind and I'm not on any buddies payroll. I've found very few knowlegable people about gasifiers except for the pro's here and they have been very helpful to all. If they haven't installed them and seviced them they think they a complicated. Once you understand dry wood, proper install, storage they are easy.
leaddog


----------



## leaddog (Feb 11, 2012)

martyinmi said:
			
		

> Pete-
> Very good, intelligent post. Points will be well taken.
> maple1-
> See above reply to Pete.
> ...


I didn't see any statement that could be taken as a fool and in Heatermans defence He is a salesman but has given some of the best advise to the people here no matter what they burn with out expecting any thing in return. I expect ANY dealer to talk up his product and make a buck but when people are giving BAD advise just to sell a product then they need to be called on it. I can tell you lots of BAD advise from the OWB dealers and some outright lies so if most of us here are skeptical there reasons for it. Just a few. 1in pex will handle any thing you need, this insulated buble wrap pipe is the best you can find., no heat loss in over 100ft., Storage is a big waste of money. You just need a bigger pump. Burn big green wood cause it is more efficient. and the biggest one off all from the top engineer of CB told to both my son and my self, " I havent heard of a single problem with our burn pots"
leaddog


----------



## heaterman (Feb 11, 2012)

Pete. You  hit the nail on the head squarely with this statement.

"_Gassifier or not, it doesnâ€™t seem reasonable to expect a cordwood boiler with a half burned load of wood to shut down instantly or to quickly reignite at a high temperature. Youâ€™re going to get some smoke if thatâ€™s how your boiler operates, although clearly some designs are better than others._"

Shutting down at mid burn because the aquastat is satisfied will always result in increased emissions and a loss of efficiency.  Storage is the key. In fact, I think that if a person were to connect a standard OWB to storage which allowed the entire fuel load to be consumed without shutting down, you could probably hit around 50% efficiency with it.


----------



## maple1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Jeebers, how much storage would that require?


----------



## heaterman (Feb 11, 2012)

Marty, if you're trying to get under my skin or disprove the theories I am referring to, it ain't working.

If you ever get up toward Falmouth in the morning, give me a heads up. I'll buy you breakfast at the local greasy spoon and we can talk shop. That's a standing offer.


----------



## heaterman (Feb 11, 2012)

maple1 said:
			
		

> Jeebers, how much storage would that require?



Depends on the size of the fuel load and how much heat you want to bottle up. For all but the smallest homes and lower output boilers I recommend at least 1000 gallons. I think Leaddog cornered the market on LP tanks and hooked up 2,000 gallons worth to his EKO 80. He could tell you if it still idles.


----------



## bpirger (Feb 11, 2012)

Well, martyinmi might not be getting under heaterman's skin, but I'll certainly say his remarks and lack of respect have gotten under mine.  While hopefully Steve does earn a bit of living through his efforts here, I for one have benefited tremendously from him and have the deepest respect for him.  I find the childish bantering and constant attempts at starting a pissing match ridiculous, and Steve's constant respectful remarks and open hand to marty even more proving of the MAN Steve is, in addition to his vast experience and knowledge.

I'm all for frank discussion and debate, but it should be supported by facts, evidence, and dare I say science.  This constant badgering and disrespect does this incredible forum only harm to its content and image upon viewing by others.  As a scientist, I spend much of my day teaching and helping others, learning and creating, and seeking out new understanding.  If I tried proving I could piss further everyday than those around me, man would life really suck.   

Martyinmi, and everyone else, I ask that you treat everyone with respect.  Many come here solely to help others, perhaps to learn a new thing or discuss a new thought.  Having some unnecessary, childish comments and "taunting", quite frankly you remind me of my teenage daughters.  I can't wait until they grow up either.


----------



## Como (Feb 11, 2012)

bpirger said:
			
		

> quite frankly you remind me of my teenage daughters.  I can't wait until they grow up either.



It gets worse and a lot more expensive.


----------



## James Ascherl (Feb 11, 2012)

After logging on virtually nightly for almost two years now, I have found this forum to have incredibly helpful people who are eager to help us all with one common goal- to build and improve the best heating system possible for our needs and budget. The friendliness and subtle humor has actually made my nightly log-ons addictive. Often people have different opinions, yet they are always discussed without insults or judgment. Once every so often someone "misinterprets" someone's comment/opinion. It is usually rectified with a simple clarification or an apology. As I have been following this thread for several days, I have watched tension build as the thread slowly spins off topic. Mayhaps we should "retire" this particular thread. Lets all sit back and enjoy an adult beverage of our choice and enjoy life. My $.02


----------



## James Ascherl (Feb 11, 2012)

bpirger, you actually said what I meant to say. I was just a bit more delicate perhaps. :lol:


----------



## maple1 (Feb 11, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

> maple1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was thinking it would take a lot more water than that to stop an OWB with a full load of wood from idling.


----------



## martyinmi (Feb 11, 2012)

To all you good folks out there that I have offended, I apologize. My replies here simply are meant to make people aware of how they are perceived when they make "smoke dragon" comments, generalize all OWB dealers as unintelligent snake oil salesmen, lump all OWB users into one category, make ridiculous assumptions about gasifying OWB's efficiencies or emissions(or lack thereof),etc. We need to come to the realization that everyone's situation is different and not everyone has the financial means to purchase a 10k-15k boiler(whether an out door or indoor gasser). Sometimes it becomes necessary to do what it takes to get by. We all should have the inherent desire to want to help and teach others without the condescending attitudes.
    In my last post I offended canuck, and that was disrespectful. I am more intelligent than that, and my lack of wisdom at that moment was apparent. My reply to my fellow Michigander heaterman was not intended as a slam on him personally, just a bit of sales advise. I hope that's the way he interpreted it.
   The title of this discussion forum is Wood Boilers and Furnaces. It is not OWB gassers, Conventional OWB's, European style gasifying indoor boilers Garn, Tarn, etc. It is meant for all of us, and I'm sure it has benefited hundreds, if not more. If we all do our part, we can rest assured at night knowing that something we typed genuinely educated someone.
   My promise to all of you is that I will do my best to be respectful. I can assure you all that you will return that privilege me and others who share my views as long as our(not your) moderator allows me to visit this site.
   There is more at stake here than a lot of folks realize. There are two very large and very politically powerful institutions that do not want any of us to use any renewable resources- in our case wood- to provide heat. We all need to stick together or we all going to lose right to provide wood fueled heat for our homes and businesses. Speak to someone who is employed with the EPA's DEQ about this issue and ask him(or her) to answer you candidly. You'll not like what you hear.

   Edit: My son has inadvertently shut the spell check off on our computer. I corrected a few misspells, but I'm sure there are more.


----------



## SolarAndWood (Feb 11, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Pete. You  hit the nail on the head squarely with this statement.
> 
> "_Gassifier or not, it doesnâ€™t seem reasonable to expect a cordwood boiler with a half burned load of wood to shut down instantly or to quickly reignite at a high temperature. Youâ€™re going to get some smoke if thatâ€™s how your boiler operates, although clearly some designs are better than others._"
> 
> Shutting down at mid burn because the aquastat is satisfied will always result in increased emissions and a loss of efficiency.  Storage is the key. In fact, I think that if a person were to connect a standard OWB to storage which allowed the entire fuel load to be consumed without shutting down, you could probably hit around 50% efficiency with it.



So everything else being equal, with *edit:  boiler and *2000 gallons of storage inside the building envelope, how much do you really gain with a new gasser over a high quality non gasser in the same spot if your wood is dry and free?  And how much do you gain with a new non gasser over a high quality good shape used one in this same scenario?  Seems something like a used Tarm with substantial storage makes a lot of economic sense for a guy with free dry wood to feed it?  Might not be quite as clean as a gasser burning the same fuel but I bet it is cleaner than the few gassers I have seen burning given what they were feeding them.  The 5+ grand you save can then turn into a solar dhw system, insulation, etc if you are feeling guilty.


----------



## stee6043 (Feb 11, 2012)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a great question.  I would offer up that ANY boiler outside the building envelope, even with storage inside, will not operate as efficiently as a boiler inside, gasser or not.  The whole point behind storage is to let your boiler shut down after a burn.  If you do that with a boiler outside you have a whole new set of challenges.  Letting a boiler full of water cool for X number of hours after every burn outside is going to be very challenging operationally.  Especially on days like today where I saw 3 degrees F when I woke up this morning.  Your boiler may not freeze.  But my boiler right now is sitting at roughly 140 degrees downstairs after burning out over night.  If that boiler were outside all night I'd be willing to bet water temps would be half that right now, and dropping fast...


----------



## heaterman (Feb 11, 2012)

In the case of an owb, the thinking would be to store the heat in the water rather than smoldering wood and load accordingly rather than cram it full just because the space is there.


----------



## maple1 (Feb 11, 2012)

_There is more at stake here than a lot of folks realize. There are two very large and very politically powerful institutions that do not want any of us to use any renewable resources- in our case wood- to provide heat. We all need to stick together or we all going to lose right to provide wood fueled heat for our homes and businesses. Speak to someone who is employed with the EPAâ€™s DEQ about this issue and ask him(or her) to answer you candidly. Youâ€™ll not like what you hear._

Yes, agreed, that is becoming a large problem all over. Even up here, municipalities are creating bylaws with respect to outdoor furnaces. Such legislation can be precedent setting and can spread. Which goes directly to the thread title - I'm not sure ALL are down on non-gassers, but those that are down on them are down on them for a good reason - they burn dirty, plain & simple. There was no talk, here at least, of bylaws against wood burning until the fairly recent proliferation of 'traditional' dirty OWBs. So as a group, I think everyone needs to accept that - I think it would be a simple fact that is quite hard to deny. The indoor gassers (in the house or a garage or a shed) with storage are likely the best solution in the clean & efficient aspect, but I also think that gassing OWBs are also a vast improvement that should not be discouraged. Yes, we need to educate people on all of this, but I don't think non-gassing OWBs should be on anybodys list of choices - pretty hard to argue that they have not hurt wood burning as a whole.


----------



## SolarAndWood (Feb 11, 2012)

Sorry, meant boiler and storage inside the envelope.


----------



## leaddog (Feb 11, 2012)

One point I'd like to make is that when I say OWB I am talking the none gasifing type traditional boiler that is a big fire box surounded with water. I realize there are newer designs that are better. Any boiler can be placed outside with the proper protection and I think most people here when they say OWB they mean the older style.  I guess that any design that does the secondary burn of the gases at a high enough temp to completly burn them is good. Some may work better than others. 
In the traditional OWB the fire is surounded by water and by design the fire can't get hot enough to completly burn the gases. This is made worse with green and cold wood. Thus the large amount of smoke. My son had a CB and had learned to be able to burn it very smoke free as he lived in a village. But to do it he had to burn small, hot fires, with dry wood thus load it more often. This defeated the advantage of only tending once a day, having to split the wood, and having heat all night. He hadn't recieved any complaints but there was another OWB in the village that was emiting a HUGE amount of smoke and he knew it was only a matter of time before the hammer was going to fall. He installed a eko60 in a pole barn with 2000gal storage. His wood consuption drop considerably, was able to fire on his days off (worked 12hr shifts 2 or 3 days then had days off), and you can't tell he is burning wood except with his wood piles. 
Do I see a place for OWB yes but in very few cases and only if they are burn clean. It does make sence to me if someone can pick up a good used one and use it untill they are able to install  a better one. But around here most OWB's are almost as much as buying a gasifier. My neighbor did that but I helped him install it using foam and such and it is surving him at the time. He also has told me that he can really see the diference in smoke and wood usage between him and I. He had to use some green wood last spring as he ran out and was telling me that he used over twice as much as he should have used and I was so right about the dry wood thing. Now when he is talking to other people about their boilers and they talk about having to go cut some wood to burn he's letting them know about his experience. 
As people learn more and more about the gasifieing boilers they will come around. How many of you realized that most of the cars and trucks overseas during the war were running on wood. I'm 70 years old and NEVER heard of that untill I started researching alternate wood burning. 
I personaly think that wood chips will be the big thing in the future as they will be easier for people to obtain. It is just going to take a while for some co. here to deside there is a market for it. They are available and in high use overseas. No need for storage as they can modulate and run very much like a fossel fuel boiler. But because of the codes, different requirements of states, cities , and such, along with the lawsuit enviroment here they don't want to get into this market. Just look around you and see all that brush etc that is going to the dump that with a small chipper could be made into heat. unlike pellets that are transportation heavy chips are right in your back yard. $6 gal oil is going to make some big changes around here.
leaddog


----------

