# Harman 52i not working properly--low heat, runs dirty, excess ash



## EricHahn (Jan 8, 2015)

We bought a new Accentra insert, 52,000 btu, and I installed it in November 2014. We've had issues with it from day 1 and our dealer doesn't want to hear from us anymore.

Issue #1: The exhaust pipe was initially hooked up wrong. I was confused on how to hook the pipes together and called the stove store. The salesman did not give the clearest advice and it was not done properly. We got 6 blinking lights and the stove would frequently shut down. The install guy came out and showed me what I had done wrong and the stove worked great for about 24 hours.

Issue #2: The stove doesn't put out much heat. It struggles to heat our LR to 66 degrees, and forget about the rest of the house. Worse, it is blowing through 2 bags per day and we are cold! 

Issue #3: It runs very dirty. We were told by the salesman and also read in the manual that one bag of pellets will produce a cup of ash. Right now, one bag of pellets completely fills the ash pan. It requires a deep cleaning every single week.

What has been done: The repair guy came out to fix the exhaust pipe, but was not happy to hear from us again when we called to say it is running cold. He came out again and cleaned it. He does not feel there is a mechanical problem. He did not do a draft test. 

In fact: He doesn't see a problem at all. Both he and the owner have implied that we are expecting too much from the stove. We live in an old, drafty house with little insulation. The room where the stove is located is full of doors and windows. He said that 66 is the best a pellet stove can do, despite the fact that the thermostat is 12 feet away. In addition, he said the salesman and Harman people exaggerate when they talk about ashes and one bag filling the pan is normal. I should note that while our living room is 66, the rest of our house (2600 sq ft) is 56. 

We really don't expect the stove to heat our entire home. But we do expect to feel hot air--and not lukewarm--coming from it. We do expect it to heat the room it is in and not struggle to keep it at 66 or lower.

We are feeling sick about this purchase. We had to get a (small) second job to pay for it and it is seeming like a waste of money. At this point, I can't imagine why anyone would spend 4K on a stove that doesn't heat, requires constant cleaning and emptying, sucks up the pellets, and has no one to call if it isn't working.

If anyone can advise on what would make an Accentra 52i have low heat, excess ash, and high pellet usage, we would like to hear from you. We have tried every setting imaginable, but usually run it on stove temp, (room temp doesn't work at all--won't bring it to 70 degrees or whatever we put it on), feed rate of 4.

Eric


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## fmsm (Jan 9, 2015)

Have you read the sticky on how your Harman works?
What are you burning for pellets? How are they stored? Could they be defective? 
Did you install an OAK? If not you may be making the problem worse by sucking in cold air from outside into your house.

What settings? Room temp/stove temp?


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

Sorry to hear of your problems. Stove temp with feed rate 4 and the dial set to level 4 or4.5 will not heat my house either with my P61 unless it's in the 20's or high teens outside or warmer, then when it hits upper 30's it will roast you out.. I have good windows in the house and insulated doors, insulation could be better, 1800 sq ft. Room temp is another matter, same settings just flip the switch up to room temp and the whole place warms up. It uses pellets to do that though.

Lots of ash is generally related to pellet quality in a Harman, it sounds like you don't have very good pellets or I should say that you have ashy pellets.. In other brand stoves there are manual controls that could be screwed up and cause some residual burn issues. In a Harman it pretty well comes down to pellets and sometimes a very long low burn period but that won't so much produce lots and lots of extra ash, just more collection than a hotter larger fire rate. The ash first has to be present anyway in the pellets. I can get a month between cleanings in my P61 with really good quality pellets, very low ash of .2 or .3 %. Along with ashy pellets often comes lower BTU's so the stove has to eat more of them to produce equal heat of better pellets exacerbating the ash situation. Case in point: I just used a bunch or ashy pellets in my stove. A single day burning produced more ash piled up on top of burn chamber components than I have now with Douglas Fir pellets in almost a weeks worth of burning them.

Now, Room temp not putting out is usually a matter of sensor probe location. Your probe senses warm air that is not really in the room and shuts the stove down. Obviously your room doesn't have warm air, so where is the probe located that it is sensing warm air ? Also, you can't set your room temp to 69 or 70 and expect any heat to get to the rest of the house much past that room sensor probes room. Boost it up to 74 or 75 and see what happens. You state low insulation, you have a high state of cold air in the house to overcome.

That said , if your house is really that loose and that big you will have issues in the colder weather trying to heat it with one pellet stove. Might I suggest that you Consider it supplemental heat not primary heat ? Use your main heating system to bring things up to temp and the pellet stove to lengthen the between burn times of the central heat. This works, I did this with coal for more than 30 years, it drastically reduced oil consumption in my house, it cut out 3/4 of our oil heating bill in fact or delivery rate anyway.

Conclusion:
Do things that can tighten the house as best you can. Find drafts and plug them etc.
Move that room sensor probe. It sounds to me that right now it is being satisfied and so it shuts your stove down prematurely.
Maybe pick up a few bags of known good pellets and see if that changes your ash situation ( it should ).. There is info all over this site about pellet brands, research that.


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## bogieb (Jan 9, 2015)

Right now, without more information, we would all just be throwing guesses in the ring and have you chasing all kinds of things. I believe your Harman should at the least be able to heat your living room, since you stated you weren't trying to heat your whole house. You say it is running cold, which is a start on a description. As fmsm stated, we would like your settings (manual/auto, room temp/stove temp, feed rate, fan setting). How does the flame look? Can you get a nice tall flame or is it always a small flame? Does the stove seem to cycle, and if so, how often?


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## rickwai (Jan 9, 2015)

Sounds like a classic case of junk pellets!  1st buy a few bags of different pellets and try them. Sounds like stove is trying to heat(feeding 2 bags /day). Other thing to check would be a stuck inlet air flapper. 
Bad pellets or incoming air problem.....


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## bogieb (Jan 9, 2015)

rickwai said:


> Sounds like a classic case of junk pellets!  .....



That may be, but even the crappiest pellets I have used haven't produced as much as the OP claims at filling the ash pan (and I have never owned a bag blazers or MWP's or any of the other pellets touted as the good stuff).


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## md2002 (Jan 9, 2015)

As others have said more detailed information is needed before we can give you anymore help. When I 1st bought my stove I felt the same way you did, severe buyers remorse because I didn't feel like the price I paid was worth my return on investment. The living room wasn't as hot as I thought it should be, the rest of the house was not getting warm, the stove was shutting off on low settings. Then I played around with pellets and settings and before I knew it I was very  happy with the purchase. It just takes time but you will figure out what works best. The biggest thing is the pellet and a clean stove.... once I tested out some pellets I found the right combination. As most people have said, go buy some known good pellets and see what happens.

An uninsulated house and a room with all windows and doors is going to be tough to heat, no matter what you use, but the stove should keep you comfortable. It sounds like you may have been expecting too much going into the pellet stove purchase. Some people are lucky enough to heat their entire homes with a stove and that great, but when I bought my stove I knew it wouldn't heat my house and I was only getting it as a secondary source of heat and for that purpose it has served me well. To my surprise it does heat my whole house when the temps are above freezing but I have a completely sealed house, newer windows, doors and insulation.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

bogieb said:


> That may be, but even the crappiest pellets I have used haven't produced as much as the OP claims at filling the ash pan (and I have never owned a bag blazers or MWP's or any of the other pellets touted as the good stuff).


bogieb I filled a P61 ash pan in less than a week on some lousy pellets last year. Actually in just over 3 days. The P61 ash pan would be comparatively larger than the P52i putting the later stove in line with a day or two to fill the ash pan on the same pellets. And they were no bargain in the heat department either.


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

rickwai said:


> Sounds like a classic case of junk pellets!  1st buy a few bags of different pellets and try them. Sounds like stove is trying to heat(feeding 2 bags /day). Other thing to check would be a stuck inlet air flapper.
> Bad pellets or incoming air problem.....



The pellets are 100% hardwood, premium grade, and have the pellet fuel institute seal on them. The dealer said the pellets were not the problem when he came out.

I'm pretty confident we are not expecting too much out of it and here's why: After the dealer came out, the thing ran hot and we couldn't have been more happy with it. No, it didn't heat our whole house but it was comfortable in rooms that are 25 feel from the stove, instead of a balmy 56. But it only runs like that for about a day after he's here and then it starts acting up again. Even though I take the entire thing apart and clean it each week. I did buy a brush to clean the exhaust pipe and different pellets and will see if that makes a difference this weekend.[/quote]


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

bogieb said:


> Right now, without more information, we would all just be throwing guesses in the ring and have you chasing all kinds of things. I believe your Harman should at the least be able to heat your living room, since you stated you weren't trying to heat your whole house. You say it is running cold, which is a start on a description. As fmsm stated, we would like your settings (manual/auto, room temp/stove temp, feed rate, fan setting). How does the flame look? Can you get a nice tall flame or is it always a small flame? Does the stove seem to cycle, and if so, how often?



Settings: auto, feed rate 4, stove temp, fan on medium-high. The room sensor probe is not in a cold or hot part of the room but has never come close to what we set it on, so we stopped using it. We initially set it on 75 but eventually moved it all over and it never made any difference--it heats to whatever it feels like. The flame is tall and looks good most of the time, which is why we can't figure out why it's not throwing off heat. It doesn't cycle. 

By running cold, I mean we can stand in front of it and it's no hotter than an electric space heater. If I had thought this was what people meant when they carry on about Harmans, I can tell you we would have never bought one! But I did see glimpses of what it is capable of after it was worked on.


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## bogieb (Jan 9, 2015)

Please give us your settings so we can offer suggestions that make sense. EDIT: sorry, your reply with the settings did not show up before I posted this, only the reply about the pellets was on my radar.

My first guess is that the probe has disconnected from the back of the stove so it is just idling, but that doesn't make sense if you are running in stove temp (which I don't know if you are or not), or if the stove is cycling and the flame gets larger/smaller. We do not at this point have enough information to give you ideas.


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## bogieb (Jan 9, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> bogieb I filled a P61 ash pan in less than a week on some lousy pellets last year. Actually in just over 3 days. The P61 ash pan would be comparatively larger than the P52i putting the later stove in line with a day or two to fill the ash pan on the same pellets. And they were no bargain in the heat department either.



Point taken, but I also run a stove that has a very small ash pan (the St. Croix), and believe me, there is no way I can get that many ashes out of 1 bag of pellets if it is running anywhere close to where it is supposed to be.


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## Delta-T (Jan 9, 2015)

if you're running in* stove temp* the unit is not looking to satisfy a temperature. It is running at a fixed output...the #s 1-7.


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

I undertand that it's not looking to satisfy a certain temp, but I have to believe that it is capable of more than heating one room to 66. Otherwise, no one would buy them. 

Any ideas what sorts of things cause the excess ash, if it's not the pellets?


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## bogieb (Jan 9, 2015)

Delta-T said:


> if you're running in* stove temp* the unit is not looking to satisfy a temperature. It is running at a fixed output...the #s 1-7.



As Delta is too nice to mention, I neglected to ask about the temp dial (or output dial in stove temp) in the list of info asked for. What is that set at? If it is set at 3 or below, that could be your issue.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

bogieb said:


> Point taken, but I also run a stove that has a very small ash pan (the St. Croix), and believe me, there is no way I can get that many ashes out of 1 bag of pellets if it is running anywhere close to where it is supposed to be.


That's good  then you have at least decent pellets. And I do believe you. You need to believe me when I say there are crap pellets out there that will fill the huge ash pan in the P61 in less than a week of burning. Just because you have not burned those pellets does not mean they don't exist. And yes, they said Premium on the label and 1% ash on the label. Other , what I consider to be ashy pellets , fill the ash pan in a bit over two weeks of burning that say the same things on the label. That's how it is. Douglas Fir Pellets take over a month to fill the same ash pan. Oh my gosh, what a difference a pellet can make !


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## md2002 (Jan 9, 2015)

All pellets now a days say Premium grade.... that doesn't mean much anymore. What brand pellets are you burning? What's the name on the bag?


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

These are the pellets we have been using.


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

We have tried different settings on the temp dial. Yesterday, it was all the way up to 7 with the feed rate still at 4 (otherwise the hot ones are falling off) and still my 5 kids were huddling around it trying to keep warm.


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

Could bad air flow cause the stove to run so dirty? We did have the 6 blink issue early on, indicating poor combustion. 

And when I say the ash pan is full after one bag, I mean it is completely full. That was what was most surprising to us when the repair guy came out last week--it ran great that first 24 hrs and there were no ashes in the pan. We are used to it starting to fill within the first 15 mins it's on.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> The pellets are 100% hardwood, premium grade, and have the pellet fuel institute seal on them. The dealer said the pellets were not the problem when he came out.
> 
> I'm pretty confident we are not expecting too much out of it and here's why: After the dealer came out, the thing ran hot and we couldn't have been more happy with it. No, it didn't heat our whole house but it was comfortable in rooms that are 25 feel from the stove, instead of a balmy 56. But it only runs like that for about a day after he's here and then it starts acting up again. Even though I take the entire thing apart and clean it each week. I did buy a brush to clean the exhaust pipe and different pellets and will see if that makes a difference this weekend.


[/quote]
Note the temperatures outdoors on the days it heated the house compared to when not heating the house.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> Could bad air flow cause the stove to run so dirty? We did have the 6 blink issue early on, indicating poor combustion.
> 
> And when I say the ash pan is full after one bag, I mean it is completely full. That was what was most surprising to us when the repair guy came out last week--it ran great that first 24 hrs and there were no ashes in the pan. We are used to it starting to fill within the first 15 mins it's on.


That I have to admit is odd that it did not fill the ash pan after the repair guy left.. Yes, bad airflow could cause a stove to run dirty.


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

I do see what you're saying. It has been extremely cold here in Missouri. But that would not cause the stove to run so dirty and inefficient. Something is not right with it, and I can't figure out what it is. Even if it is 7 degrees outside, you should still feel hot air and not lukewarm when you stand 2 feet away from it.


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

Sounds like a combination of poor installation, poor insulation, bad pellets and not fully undestanding how the stove operates. Don't blame the stove. My insert works fine and so, apparently, did yours. It can do so again.

Tell us more about your install. Did you do it or the dealer? Do you have an OAK? What size is your vent piping? How is it run? What size room are you trying to heat? The airflow from the stove is not a blowtorch and never will be BTW. I go a month and more between cleanings and weeks between ash pan dumps burning a bag plus a day.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

Ok, it's time for complete information. Size of venting, how long, horizontal or vertical ? You are running in Stove temp mode we have that, feed rate 4 we have that. The house is loose, we have that. I assume no outside air kit ?


EricHahn said:


> I do see what you're saying. It has been extremely cold here in Missouri. But that would not cause the stove to run so dirty and inefficient. Something is not right with it, and I can't figure out what it is. Even if it is 7 degrees outside, you should still feel hot air and not lukewarm when you stand 2 feet away from it.


Eric, the stove has to feed right, get sufficient air and vent right in order to make heat. Not all ash ends up in the ash pan as I am sure you are aware. You see ash collecting on internal components and in the ash pan. What you can't see is the ash that goes up the vent. Quite a bit does just that, up and all the way out and also collecting inside the vent system. If not venting correctly due to what ever reason, lets say ash in this case, then the fire gets dirty, you get incomplete burn. Not only will the ash and hot gasses not vent but they have to go someplace and collects everywhere in the stove. If that gets bad enough it can first, get dangerous, second eventually just snuff the stove out. I am not saying this is the case here, I'm saying that's how it works.

What is your venting configuration, size of pipe and lengths please ? Elbows used etc. Do you know if you have met EVL requirements ?


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Sounds like a combination of poor installation, poor insulation. bad pellets and not fully undestanding how the stove operates. Don't blame the stove. My insert works fine and so, apparently, did yours. It can do so again.
> 
> Tell us more about your install. Did you do it or the dealer? Do you have an OAK? What size us your vent piping? How is it run? What size room are you trying to heat? The airflow from the stove is not a blowtorch and never will be BTW. I go a month and more between cleanings and weeks between ash pan dumps burning a bag plus a day.


Sorry, i was typing as you posted


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> Sorry, i was typing as you posted


No problem. We're thinking alike.


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## unbidden (Jan 9, 2015)

> The pellets are 100% hardwood, premium grade, and have the pellet fuel institute seal on them.



This means absolutely nothing. Everything I've  burned have the PFI symbol; some are good and some are not. The Pellet litmus test is to try a couple bags of different brands. Try some that have not been stored outdoors.


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## bags (Jan 9, 2015)

Your stove WILL throw plenty of heat IF it is eating good pellets and burning properly. Let these guys with successful 52i's help you out. Give them the details they ask for so they can get an understanding of your situation and offer solutions to correct what needs to be and get you heating.

*"The dealer said."* Forget that for starters. Some dealers are just that, dealers. Same goes for the installers. They might not know what they are talking about. Have you considered that? I have a very knowledgeable and top notch dealer. I don't use him. I come HERE. There are many here that can and will be better suited to help you FIX your issues. Just answer what they ask and do what they recommend. Pretty simple.

Another point I would like to make is the BS line the "installer / dealer" said "*it is normal*" for the ash pan to fill up after ONE bag of pellets. This is complete and utter BULLSH!T!* There is nothing "normal" about that whatsoever. Nothing! 

It has been stated here that it can happen IF you are burning crappy pellets. Crappy pellets are not "NORMAL."* Did you buy those heavily ash producing non heat throwing pellets from the same dealer? If you did then he possibly could be selling you a bag of goods there also. You can also have a bad batch of pellets so I do not care what the dealer and installer are saying.

First and foremost listen to and do as asked from the VERY knowledgeable folks here. Second, go buy a couple of bags of some other pellets that have good reviews here and try them out. IF it is not the pellets then we can explore other possibilities.

F4 and Alternative are getting you steered in the correct direction. Forget about your dealer and installer for a moment. I also question many issues there with some of the idiotic statements you say they have made. The free help here is has no other motives like making money and slinging BS. We would like to see you get warm heat out of YOUR Harman and enjoy it also. They are excellent big heat producing machines and when you say "luke warm small electric heater" we know that is not how these stoves heat so the goal is to FIX what whoever F'ed up. 
*
*


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 9, 2015)

Let's see what the complete installation looks like.

There was a case on here involving a 52i not long ago that suposedly needed a nose, heart, double lung and brain transplant.


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Let's see what the complete installation looks like.
> 
> There was a case on here involving a 52i not long ago that suposedly needed a nose, heart, double lung and brain transplant.


Much the exception tho. Until we clear the installation have to assume stove is OK. Oh, and in that case Harman paid for the fix too.


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

I am aware that we are receiving BS from our dealer, Arnold Stove Works, in Arnold MO. Even the president of the company said, "Sounds about right." when we told him about the excessive ash. We asked why his salesman and manual, not to mention the entire internet, says 1 cup from a bag and he again implied we are expecting too much.

I installed it myself with 3" double wall PL rated pipe. One 90 degree elbow, total pipe length is 3.5 feet.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> I am aware that we are receiving BS from our dealer, Arnold Stove Works, in Arnold MO. Even the president of the company said, "Sounds about right." when we told him about the excessive ash. We asked why his salesman and manual, not to mention the entire internet, says 1 cup from a bag and he again implied we are expecting too much.
> 
> I installed it myself with 3" double wall PL rated pipe. One 90 degree elbow, total pipe length is 3.5 feet.



Red flags have already gone off.

Is that 90 degrees up and three feet into something like an existing chimney? .

If so we need the the height of the chimney above the end of that 3 feet and the size of the chimney flue.


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

F4, I am not expecting blow torch heat but I do expect heat and not lukewarm air. After the repair guy came out last week, it started pumping out heat and we were astonished. Within an hour, the big and drafty room was about 76 which floored us. We were beginning to think these things are just overrated. I can't tell you how relieved we were to have this thing work. But it was short lived. That was last Friday and by Sunday it was struggling again.

I will get different pellets and try them this weekend.


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

It is an insert but the chimney was torn down before the install. So the air intake and vent pipe exit the rear of the stove vertically for 15" then 90 degree elbow and it runs horizontally for 24". 
It vents directly outside the house, so while it is technically a fireplace insert, we are not using the chimney. I did build a doghouse looking structure to enclose the remainder of the chimney and house the vent pipe. I can take a picture if that would help.


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

OK.

I assume no OAK?

First I'd call Harman direct and complain about the dealer. Ask if they have another in the area who can properly evaluate the stove and the install. As Smokey pointed out there was one extreme instance of a Harman needing a major rework but Harman paid for that fix.

You obviously need a draft test. I'd never have gone with a 3" vent but you do have a short run so it may work. My insert keeps the living spaces at 69 to 70f when the temp is way minus. Latest at -11 so yours can and will do better. Also, can you get a few bags of a different brand of pellets? As was said before, no matter what the bag says there are big quality differences. Try for a hardwood like Lignetics or a softee like Blazers. Clean your stove. Take down the vent pipe and clean it as well. Be sure you have no obstructions, then try the new pellets. If you need pellet advice we can help but Home Depot and Tractor Supply can have decent ones.

Now, what size is the room the stove is in?

Can you borrow an IR / laser heat sensor?

Let's see that picture of the doghouse etc.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

F4jock said:


> No problem. We're thinking alike.


Wait a minute, I've only ever flown in and had slight control of an At6. You flew F4's, like WOW !


EricHahn said:


> It is an insert but the chimney was torn down before the install. So the air intake and vent pipe exit the rear of the stove vertically for 15" then 90 degree elbow and it runs horizontally for 24".
> It vents directly outside the house, so while it is technically a fireplace insert, we are not using the chimney. I did build a doghouse looking structure to enclose the remainder of the chimney and house the vent pipe. I can take a picture if that would help.


Absolutely take the pictures. So are you telling us you are running 3' with a 90 of total  vent? Or an EVL of over 17' ?


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

More info: our chimney was old and pulling our house down on that side, causing cracks in the foundation and basement floor popping up, cracks in the plaster ceilings, etc. 
the chimney removal had nothing to do with the pellet install; we just thought it was a good time to buy the stove and hook it up since the house was exposed there anyway, for a time.


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> More info: our chimney was old and pulling our house down on that side, causing cracks in the foundation and basement floor popping up, cracks in the plaster ceilings, etc.
> the chimney removal had nothing to do with the pellet install; we just thought it was a good time to buy the stove and hook it up since the house was exposed there anyway, for a time.


If you got the room to 76 once it can be done again. Patience Grasshopper!

EDIT: And consider going to a 4" vent.


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

Yes, total vent is 3.5 feet.


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> Yes, total vent is 3.5 feet.


But EVL is 17 feet.

How did you determine what to use for a vent? Did you or someone calculate it or did you hipshoot?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> Yes, total vent is 3.5 feet.



That is not how it is measured for venting considerations.


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## Delta-T (Jan 9, 2015)

....did you try turning it to 7 to see if it would blow out hot air?


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> Yes, total vent is 3.5 feet.


Eric, I own a P61 vented up 26ft with 4" vent. But looked at the 52i first and Harman and the dealer both suggested 4" in a horizontal run after a 90.  Lets put it this way preferred.


Delta-T said:


> ....did you try turning it to 7 to see if it would blow out hot air?


He did, we are moving past that stage.


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

I don't know what EVL means, but the 3.5 feet is how long the total pipe is. As far as how did I determine what to do, I used the 3" vent that Harman sent with the stove, and the other supplies were ordered through the salesman. I followed the directions and the illustration on the manual, as far as what to do. My setup looks almost identical to the one in the manual, so I was hoping it would do the job.


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> Eric, I own a P61 vented up 26ft with 4" vent. But looked at the 52i first and Harman and the dealer both suggested 4" in a horizontal run after a 90. i suspect
> 
> He did, we are moving past that stage.


Cheap enough to go to all 4".


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> I don't know what EVL means, but the 3.5 feet is how long the total pipe is. As far as how did I determine what to do, I used the 3" vent that Harman sent with the stove, and the other supplies were ordered through the salesman. I followed the directions and the illustration on the manual, as far as what to do. My setup looks almost identical to the one in the manual, so I was hoping it would do the job.


Equivalent Vertical Length. Should be below 15. You have 17.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 9, 2015)

You have several Harman stove owners and a former Harman stove dealership service/sales/gopher/whatever guy.  I'm bowing out as at least two of you are preaching from the holy book.   Don't forget that the air intake needs paying attention too as well.


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> You have several Harman stove owners and a former Harman stove dealership service/sales/gopher/whatever guy.  I'm bowing out as at least two of you are preaching from the holy book.  Don't forget that the air intake needs paying attention too as well.


Stick with us Smokey. Can use all the help we can get!


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Stick with us Smokey. Can use all the help we can get!


Yes because we may need another lecture on safety before this is done and you got that down pat !!


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

EVL should be below 15 with a 3" vent. Am I understanding you correctly? Would you recommend it be switched out with 4"?


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> I don't know what EVL means, but the 3.5 feet is how long the total pipe is. As far as how did I determine what to do, I used the 3" vent that Harman sent with the stove, and the other supplies were ordered through the salesman. I followed the directions and the illustration on the manual, as far as what to do. My setup looks almost identical to the one in the manual, so I was hoping it would do the job.


How many pellets have you burned so far since the install.? 

You said you went up 15 inches, is that correct ? 
Then a 90, is that correct ?
Then horizontal for two feet, is that correct ?


----------



## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> EVL should be below 15 with a 3" vent. Am I understanding you correctly? Would you recommend it be switched out with 4"?


Considering your short run it'd be cheap. We first need to see a picture of the pipe as installed first please,  especially your doghouse.


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

And please provide a shot showing where your vent is in relation to the roofline.


----------



## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

This is the outside.


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 9, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> How many pellets have you burned so far since the install.?
> 
> You said you went up 15 inches, is that correct ?
> Then a 90, is that correct ?
> Then horizontal for two feet, is that correct ?





> *A rule of thumb* equation we are using has been adopted by most pellet manufactures. The equation is called the sum of Equivalent Vertical Length (EVL). All of the above mentioned venting restrictions have been assigned EVL values as follows:
> 
> 
> Each 45 degree elbow = 3 EVL
> ...



Wouldn't that equal an EVL of about 8?


----------



## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

woodmakesheat said:


> Wouldn't that equal an EVL of about 8?


Take a look at the picture. Which is what? One is necked down. . . .


----------



## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

woodmakesheat said:


> Wouldn't that equal an EVL of about 8?


In my question that is why I asked as I did. That 15" is really 15" and not mistaken for 15'.

I see the photo now, so we can add a 45. Still under. Not preferred but acceptable.

So OP, has this vent ever been cleaned and how many pellets have been burned  this season without cleaning ?


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> This is the outside.


I see two pipes. One is necked down. Which is what? Also, is the end screened? Can't see.


----------



## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> In my question tha tis why I asked as I did. That 15" is really 15" and not mistaken for 15'.


I saw 15 feet. Sorry. BTW look at the pictures.


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 9, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Take a look at the picture. Which is what? One is necked down. . . .



Darn, my clairvoyance wasn't working when I posted at the same time as the picture was posted. lol


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

This is the outside. You can see the outline where the chimney was. 
Sorry if it's rotated the wrong way. It's fine on my computer but sideways in the preview.


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## bags (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> This is the outside. You can see the outline where the chimney was.
> Sorry if it's rotated the wrong way. It's fine on my computer but sideways in the preview.


Try holding your phone horizontally when taking pics for uploading.


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> This is the outside. You can see the outline where the chimney was.
> Sorry if it's rotated the wrong way. It's fine on my computer but sideways in the preview.



Which one is the exhaust? Looks like the necked down one that's at a downward angle (or sideways as this site likes to keep me neurotic rotating my laptop all day  )

As I think, technically it's probably not necked down due to pipe is double walled until the exit.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

F4jock said:


> I saw 15 feet. Sorry. BTW look at the pictures.


Ya in both questions but probably not clearly I was trying to determine if it was 15 ft. That's probably how over 17 EVL got started. in that question i wanted to know if it was 3 liner ft or over 17 EVL . thinking somehow this dog house was encasing more vertical run than mentioned. . So we are past that now, LOL!


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

You did a nice job BUT - why is vent pointed down and necked down? (Assuming one on L is vent?)


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

The vent pipe is necked down. The intake is not. There is a screen.

The pipes have not been thoroughly cleaned, but the brush came in yesterday and that will be done first thing Sat morning. 
We have gone through a ton of pellets since turning it on in November.


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## bags (Jan 9, 2015)

The exhaust is on the left and OAK on the right I'd say. Looks a little bit different to me. Not sure what the OAK is made up of. I have seen those tapered horizontal termination elbows like that by Dura Vent. It seems they would restrict air flow but Dura Vent does sell and market them as termination elbows.

Still not a real clear photo. Can you get some close ups and try the phone horizontally.


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

It is necked down got keep rain out. It is on the western side of our house facing an open field and takes a lot of wind. I didn't want it to push rain into the vent.


----------



## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> The vent pipe is necked down. The intake is not. There is a screen.
> 
> The pipes have not been thoroughly cleaned, but the brush came in yesterday and that will be done first thing Sat morning.
> We have gone through a ton of pellets since turning it on in November.


Ton isn't bad. Now first point the vent up, get rid of the reducer and replace it with a proper shield. Also, run the pipe up above the doghouse at least. Really ought to be above roof line. . . . . And disconnect the pipe before you brush it out so you can get rid of the ash if any. You are also suffering from being on the windward side of the house.


----------



## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> It is necked down got keep rain out. It is on the western side of our house facing an open field and takes a lot of wind. I didn't want it to push rain into the vent.


Two strikes right there.


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## bags (Jan 9, 2015)

Many recommend turning this elbow down for rain. They are adjustable going from straight to a 45* max.


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

bags said:


> Many recommend turning this elbow down for rain. They are adjustable going from straight to a 45* max.


Windward side below roof line and reduced as well? And it's 90 not 45. Hard to see with rotation.

Everything indicates improper draft is part of problem. This isn't helping.


----------



## unbidden (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> F4, I am not expecting blow torch heat but I do expect heat and not lukewarm air. After the repair guy came out last week, it started pumping out heat and we were astonished. Within an hour, the big and drafty room was about 76 which floored us. We were beginning to think these things are just overrated. I can't tell you how relieved we were to have this thing work. But it was short lived. That was last Friday and by Sunday it was struggling again.
> 
> I will get different pellets and try them this weekend.



I have a 52i, you are not expecting to much. The fact that the stove cranked you up to 76*  substantiates this. As mentioned, could be install / venting issue but $5 spent on a bag of pellets is the place to start. The others here know far more about installation than I. Stay possitive, they'll straighten this out.


----------



## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

Try an experiment. Remove the reducer, burn and see what happens. Try to do this on a calm day or get a full side ell to replace the reducer and point it up.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Windward side below roof line and reduced as well?


Yes my first thought is windward side and it takes a lot of wind. At least the OAK is on the same side, that should help neutralize the wind effect.

OP: I suggest cleaning the vent for sure. If these are ashy pellets especially. The stove already has turns in it going to the venting manifold if you want to call it that ( internally at the stove to carriage connection) as I recall. There is a 90 in the system. It's three inch venting where from my knowledge  4" is preferred. Can't say not to use three but it will require more frequent cleaning.

OP: Have you cleaned inside the stove behind the medallion. Again, as I understand the 52i ,there is access behind there to passages not seen with the medallion in place. Look in your manual. And you may even find a you tube video on cleaning a 52i by now. I have not looked in a year. But the owners of them can walk you through that anyway.


----------



## bags (Jan 9, 2015)

I see some possible issues. I am curious on that tapered termination and I know Dura Vent makes them at least for 3". I had my hands on one looking at it questioning the reduction. IMO it should have a flare out before shrinking.

Eric, can you pull the termination elbow off to see if it is restricting your flow? As long as it's not raining you will be fine with the 3" vent opened up and straight out temporarily. Use gloves as it may be hot. You installed so you know t's a twist lock. You do not need to silicone or seal that termination. It is outside and if there is a slight leak at the joint it's not a concern. Makes for easier access to clean vent also.


----------



## bags (Jan 9, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Try an experiment. *Remove the reducer, burn and see what happens*. Try to do this on a calm day or get a full side ell to replace the reducer and point it up.


Sorry, you beat me. I was typing. I will go grab some popcorn and kick back and stay outta da way now!.


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 9, 2015)

It does reduce smaller than 3". I guess they did it to speed up flow. It also seems to have a bird guard which I could imagine might contribute to clogging if one was making a lot of ash.







http://www.duravent.com/NewsDetail.aspx?hArticle=161


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## bogieb (Jan 9, 2015)

bags said:


> The exhaust is on the left and OAK on the right I'd say. Looks a little bit different to me. Not sure what the OAK is made up of. I have seen those tapered horizontal termination elbows like that by Dura Vent. It seems they would restrict air flow but Dura Vent does sell and market them as termination elbows.
> 
> Still not a real clear photo. Can you get some close ups and try the phone horizontally.



I have a termination like that, except it is not bendable (or rotatable). The slight reduction is made for torpedoing the exhaust out on windward side installations. Works fine for my stove straight out at a horizontal.

Edit: Note that mine does not have the bird guard on it.


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## bags (Jan 9, 2015)

That's what I had my hands on and did question it. I will now no longer worry because the ID of the tapered opening is 2 5/8". With that in mind the INNER ID of the 3" vent pipe is 2 3/4" so 1/8" is not really restricting air.

I saw that 2 5/8" and ran out to the garage since I have some 3' vent pipe and measured the true inner diameter ID of that. Basically the same so that termination elbow will not restrict flow on diameter. It will restrict as a 45* elbow though.

Looks are deceiving.........


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

bogieb said:


> I have a termination like that, except it is not bendable (or rotatable). The slight reduction is made for torpedoing the exhaust out on windward side installations. Works fine for my stove straight out at a horizontal.
> 
> Edit: Note that mine does not have the bird guard on it.


Is there a screen behind that bird guard and if so how fine a mesh ? 

Same question for the OAK ?


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 9, 2015)

bags said:


> That's what I had my hands on and did question it. I will now no longer worry because the ID of the tapered opening is 2 5/8". With that in mind the INNER ID of the 3" vent pipe is 2 3/4" so 1/8" is not really restricting air.
> 
> I saw that 2 5/8" and ran out to the garage since I have some 3' vent pipe and measured the true inner diameter ID of that. Basically the same so that termination elbow will not restrict flow.
> 
> Looks are deceiving.........



Ahhh, good, I was wondering what the inner ID of regular 3" exhaust vent was - I am at work and had no access to a piece to measure.


----------



## HP52NOVA (Jan 9, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Let's see what the complete installation looks like.
> 
> There was a case on here involving a 52i not long ago that suposedly needed a nose, heart, double lung and brain transplant.



That was my stove, and I think your description is spot on, it felt just like that.    Eric, I am also a new 52i owner in Northern VA and I am sorry to say I know EXCTALY how you feel.   So first, what is it supposed to be like: it is supposed to be a blow touch, it is supposed to be able to heat the room and the house to over 70 when its cold outside, and no - a tray of ash per bag is not normal.     It looks like you are getting some help here from the guys, and I would differ to them on the technical guidance.   I can share my experience, if it will help - here is my post with all the info:https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/harman-accentra-52i-–-problems-in-paradise.137328/


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## EricHahn (Jan 9, 2015)

Close up of outside vent.


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## bags (Jan 9, 2015)

3" vent pipe has an OD of 3 5/8' to 3 3/4' on the outer pipe. Keep in mind there's another inner pipe with a 1/2 clearance between the two and the inner diameter of the pipe is 2 5/8" to 2 3/4' so that tapered outlet is still the same size as the ID.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

HP52NOVA said:


> That was my stove, and I think your description is spot on, it felt just like that.    Eric, I am also a new 52i owner in Northern VA and I am sorry to say I know EXCTALY how you feel.   So first, what is it supposed to be like: it is supposed to be a blow touch, it is supposed to be able to heat the room and the house to over 70 when its cold outside, and no - a tray of ash per bag is not normal.     It looks like you are getting some help here from the guys, and I would differ to them on the technical guidance.   I can share my experience, if it will help - here is my post with all the info:https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/harman-accentra-52i-–-problems-in-paradise.137328/


I'm glad you popped in because I was about to start searching for your thread !! Seems to me there was model year info involved in your case and recalls from Harman or tech bulletins from Harman.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> Close up of outside vent.


What is over the front of that air intake ?? If that is fine mesh or some cloth thingy get it off of there.


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## bogieb (Jan 9, 2015)

I see a wide-mesh screen on the OAK - hmm, after a closer look, it does look more like a fine mesh. Can't tell if there is one on the termination vent.

There isn't any screen on my version - a vent brush can go straight thru the pipe


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 9, 2015)

As I wondered in the other thread on this - could it be a malfunctioning ESP/control circuit that's keeping the fire too cool and ashy? Or wet pellets. Or as above - an airflow issue.


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## Harman Lover 007 (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> So the air intake and vent pipe exit the rear of the stove vertically for 15" then 90 degree elbow and it runs horizontally for 24".



EVL calc as described: Rear of stove... must have a 90 or a cleanout Tee (5 EVL); vertical 15" (.7 EVL); 90 deg elbow (5 EVL); 24" horizontal (2 EVL) Total 12.7 EVL. I see those terminations a lot. I don't think it's a restriction. I don't think the EVL is the problem. Too many cooks in this broth...I'll watch from the sidelines with Smokey.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 9, 2015)

Harman Lover 007 said:


> EVL calc as described: Rear of stove... must have a 90 or a cleanout Tee (5 EVL); vertical 15" (.7 EVL); 90 deg elbow (5 EVL); 24" horizontal (2 EVL) Total 12.7 EVL. I see those terminations a lot. I don't think it's a restriction. I don't think the EVL is the problem. Too many cooks in this broth...I'll watch from the sidelines with Smokey.


I've said what I need to say for now myself. I'm going watch for a bit till some of these things get addressed and see what shakes out of that.


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## HP52NOVA (Jan 9, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> I'm glad you popped in because I was about to start searching for your thread !! Seems to me there was model year info involved in your case and recalls from Harman or tech bulletins from Harman.



Yes, there is a recall on the burn pot and combustion fan cover.    Call Harman direct and ask for a dealer that can provide warranty service.     if your burn pot has holes on the side wings, you are affected.   they checked my serial and I was not supposed to be affected but I was.    also, the igniter area has a bit of redesign as well (held by a clamp).     if you did your own install, read all the materials and verify it was done right.   A bad self install could void your warranty.    A bad ESP could also be "helping" here, as it was with me.   There are just so many factors, I would start by eliminating the basics, verify the stove is 100% as its the only part under warranty.  Then review the venting and install.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 9, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> EVL should be below 15 with a 3" vent. Am I understanding you correctly? Would you recommend it be switched out with 4"?




Not over 15 with 3" vent.

I want to know what the separation is between the OAK and exhaust, I'm not a fan of possible self pollution of my input combustion air.

I have an issue with that OAK screen it is too fine you do not need to restrict your air flow at the get go

No one is counting that termination which does produce a resistance to the air flow because it both has a bend and reduction to it so if it would be about one foot in horizontal length would add at least a EVL of 1 to the calculations coupled that isthe fact it is also a down pitch (a big no-no in the venting book)  instead of going upward as a good horizontal run would I rate that as another 2 to the EVL you are over limit for 3".in my book.

Please remove that OAK screen and I pray that it isn't  being subjected to as much in the bendy bunny line of installation, if it were me that bird guard on the termination cap would go during the burn season.

Now you need to get the stoves exhaust side completely cleaned again. 

I don't want to see pictures of that poor esp. The stove's control system has been diced, sliced, and totally confused.

*Once you have done that at the very least*.

I'd give it another spin before I went through the thrash of going to 4 which it likely really needs, the blower on those Harmans if things were set via the DDM are pretty solid in the oomph department  and they have a double paddle version to boot for hi altitude work.

Rule one in venting (both exhaust and air intake) shorter is better.
Rule two as bend less as possible.
Rule three at the EVL mark of 15 use 4" for the entire exhaust run
Rule four horizontal isn't truely , upbuble at least 1/4" per foot of run and never downward.


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## F4jock (Jan 9, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Not over 15 with 3" vent.
> 
> I want to know what the separation is between the OAK and exhaust, I'm not a fan of possible self pollution of my input combustion air.
> 
> ...


Thanks Smokey. As well as all that he's windward, facing down and low.


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## chken (Jan 9, 2015)

I'd like to see some inside pics, like how the vent is connected inside, and the inside of the firebox, with the ash, and the flame.

It's hard to imagine the pellets could be so bad that they'd ash up so fast. And, the vent EVL should be acceptable. The pile of ash has to be combustion related.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 9, 2015)

There is at least one other thing that I wouldn't be able to get away with on my stove if it was installed like that. 

It is the fact there will never be a natural draft in his system do to the OAK being above the exhaust termination but everyone assures me that the back-flow damper kind of makes a mockery of such things on certain stove.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 9, 2015)

chken said:


> I'd like to see some inside pics, like how the vent is connected inside, and the inside of the firebox, with the ash, and the flame.
> 
> It's hard to imagine the pellets could be so bad that they'd ash up so fast. And, the vent EVL should be acceptable. The pile of ash has to be combustion related.



No kidding there is nothing any more combustion related than the air flow through the system, his is constrained at both ends.


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## keep-in warm (Jan 9, 2015)

Have you only burned a single pellet brand- HearthWoods?  Please take a step back and try a confirmed quality, low ash pellet FIRST  Several brands would be prudent to really see how your stove is operating.

to paraphrase Bags comments earlier, crappy pellets produce a crappy burn.  I cant speak for this brand, and they may be PFI rated but their own lab testing shows a .9 ash level.  Perform a full clean (ESP too) and try a different pellet before digging too deep into the install.

I can not find any reviews never mind a recommendation burning this brand.  What other pellets are available to you?   I will now go back to the sideline......


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## boosted3g (Jan 9, 2015)

Have you checked the outside air flapper to make sure it moves freely or something is not clogging the intake?  I have a higher evl on my Harman with 3" pipe so I don't think that is the problem but I would make sure it was getting air coming in.


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## Irish916 (Jan 9, 2015)

I had my 52i installed in September of 2014.  I'm almost through my first ton of Hamers/Barefoots.  I've never emptied my ash can (Approximate dimensions: 14" W x 16.5" H)once, and my ashcan is only halfway filled with ashes. The description that there is a ton of  ash and no heat sounds like he's burning with very little combustion blowing going on.  Definitely has something to do with airflow/venting and pellets.  Hope you get it sorted out soon.


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## EricHahn (Jan 10, 2015)

I cleaned the stove thoroughly this morning and there was no blockage in the vent. The ESP probe was not dirty but I cleaned it anyway. I was really hoping it would be dirty or clogged because that is an easy fix. 

I am going to switch the exhaust vent so that it necks up.

Any other ideas before I shove the thing back in the fireplace?
I would like to do a draft test but don't have the tool. Can anyone explain how to adjust the draft with the white dial?

Thanks to all who have offered advice so far.


----------



## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> I cleaned the stove thoroughly this morning and there was no blockage in the vent. The ESP probe was not dirty but I cleaned it anyway. I was really hoping it would be dirty or clogged because that is an easy fix.
> 
> I am going to switch the exhaust vent so that it necks up.
> 
> ...


Clockwise increases. Cc decreases. Get rid of the reducer on the vent and remove the screens etc on the vent anf OAK for this test.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> I cleaned the stove thoroughly this morning and there was no blockage in the vent. The ESP probe was not dirty but I cleaned it anyway. I was really hoping it would be dirty or clogged because that is an easy fix.
> 
> I am going to switch the exhaust vent so that it necks up.
> 
> ...


Take the screen off the intake till you know what's up with your stove and or install.

You can't do a whole lot with that screw without a draft meter.


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## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> Take the screen off the intake till you know what's up with your stove and or install.
> 
> You can't do a whole lot with that screw without a draft meter.


Agree with part one, disagree part two. According to Harman increasing the draft to max hurts nothing but efficiency and in this case max draft will be a good test.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Agree with part one, disagree part two. According to Harman increasing the draft to max hurts nothing but efficiency and in this case max draft will be a good test.


When he removes the restrictions if they are indeed restrictions his burn should improve, if not it won't improve. That's the big change of events he is looking for.. Moving the screw is a little change of events and more about fine tuning once the real problem is fixed. Fine tuning you need a draft meter for, IMO. If you didn't need a draft meter I'd have fine tuned my own install a year ago, fwiw.. Have you fine tuned your Harman by turning that screw without a draft meter ? If you know a good method I'm all ears ! Because I don't own the meter.


----------



## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> When he removes the restrictions if they are indeed restrictions his burn should improve, if not it won't improve. That's the big change of events he is looking for.. Moving the screw is a little change of events and more about fine tuning once the real problem is fixed. Fine tuning you need a draft meter for, IMO. If you didn't need a draft meter I'd have fine tuned my own install a year ago, fwiw.. Have you fine tuned your Harman by turning that screw without a draft meter ? If you know a good method I'm all ears ! Because I don't own the meter.


Actually I did. I found that in my case I could do so by watching the flame form and height at min burn. Found that I could easily run all the way cc. When I got a meter I found I was still above recommended min at lowest setting but flame form was far more even all around so it helped. Also largely got rid of annoying left side ignition. Before I did this I researched to be sure no harm would be done and marked the start spot.


----------



## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Actually I did. I found that in my case I could do so by watching the flame form and height at min burn. Found that I could easily run all the way cc. When I got a meter I found I was still above recommended min at lowest setting but flame form was far more even all around so it helped. Also largely got rid of annoying left side ignition. Before I did this I researched to be sure no harm would be done and marked the start spot.


What did you end up doing about the over draft situation or did you do anything about it ? I ask because I've always suspected I have an over draft in my stove, I'm still all ears here ! .


----------



## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> What did you end up doing about the over draft situation or did you do anything about it ? I ask because I've always suspected I have an over draft in my stove, I'm still all ears here ! .


Nothing. Didn't see the point. Just not that anal I guess. Stove will fire like a mutha and keeps me warm into minus numbers so *shrug*


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

They are restrictions it is just a matter of locating and removing all of them.

One step at a time please.

There are other things still on the list such as what follows.

As can a loose esp connection.

Poor gasket  seal on the door, etc ...

Did you check that the back draft flapper operates?  If it gets stuck shut you have the air flow shut off in any other position except open the burn degrades.

We should be trying to get the installation up to snuff so we see if his 52i has the same issues as HP52NOVA and can call upon Harman without the not installed correctly thing getting in the way.

God do I hate the remote thing.

Pictures of the stuff behind the insert such as the plumbing please.


----------



## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Nothing. Didn't see the point. Just not that anal I guess. Stove will fire like a mutha and keeps me warm into minus numbers so *shrug*


Ok then !! Ya mine will too if I want to burn that many pellets. So what would you describe to be the differences  in flame form on low burn if you don't mind ?


----------



## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> Ok then !! Ya mine will too if I want to burn that many pellets. So what would you describe to be the differences  in flame form on low burn if you don't mind ?


Basically low and almost dead level across the top at min burn and stays that way even as it increases until I get ash lip buildup choking it a bit as I'm sure you've seen.


----------



## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Basically low and almost dead level across the top at min burn and stays that way even as it increases until I get ash lip buildup choking it a bit as I'm sure you've seen.


Last question, What was the burn like before the adjustment ?


----------



## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> I cleaned the stove thoroughly this morning and there was no blockage in the vent. The ESP probe was not dirty but I cleaned it anyway. I was really hoping it would be dirty or clogged because that is an easy fix.
> 
> I am going to switch the exhaust vent so that it necks up.
> 
> ...


Have you ever cleaned the fines box ? And if you do that then make sure you get the cover back on correctly.


----------



## Golfeur (Jan 10, 2015)

My P68 has adjusted -.40 minimum W. C.
I try -.35 wc but I saw it a little dirty.
the flame is more beautiful was -.40 W. C.
Now I have an oak
before oak -.35 W. C. was better
the temperature is very cold here


----------



## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> Last question, What was the burn like before the adjustment ?


Higher and more ragged


----------



## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

Golfeur said:


> My P68 has adjusted -.40 minimum W. C.
> I try -.35 wc but I saw it a little dirty.
> the flame is more beautiful was -.40 W. C.
> Now I have an oak
> ...


My low flame has no beauty to it FWIW. It has flicking and flashing tips generally. I'm talking about at minimum output here. Fingers of flame shoot up, one left, then one right, then maybe a center hump of flame forms, a sparkler goes off. It looks like a nitro a funny car crackling away in the night .


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## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> My low flame has no beauty to it FWIW. It has flicking and flashing tips generally. I'm talking about at minimum output here. Fingers of flame shoot up, one left, then one right, then maybe a center hump of flame forms, a sparkler goes off. It looks like a nitro a funny car crackling away in the night .


Well I had fun playing with it and suffered no harm but everyone is different.


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## Golfeur (Jan 10, 2015)

my little flame is nice since I was -.40 wc is light yellow and warm burn
but since I have the oak ashes in the stove is more glue on the wall and the stove was dirty faster
the very cold air is certainly for something


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## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

Golfeur said:


> my little flame is nice since I was -.40 wc is light yellow and warm burn
> but since I have the oak ashes in the stove is more glue on the wall and the stove was dirty faster
> the very cold air is certainly for something


My OAK pulls from the garage. Unheated but we'll above outside temps.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Higher and more ragged


Hmmm.


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## Golfeur (Jan 10, 2015)

the temperature is usually -15 to -35 f


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## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> Hmmm.


I look at it this way, after all the crap I've done in life I'm not going to let a stove intimidate me, especially if I know I can put it back like it was with no harm done.


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## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

Golfeur said:


> the temperature is usually -15 to -35 f


-4 this morning. About 28 in garage


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## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

F4jock said:


> I look at it this way, after all the crap I've done in life I'm not going to let a stove intimidate me, especially if I know I can put it back like it was with no harm done.


PTL I'm still even here !! No other explanation. And I didn't fly airplanes in times of war. Those who did I'm sure are double grateful.


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## heat seeker (Jan 10, 2015)

F4jock said:


> My OAK pulls from the garage. Unheated but we'll above outside temps.



Hope you don't suck in some gas vapors. I think that may be against code - at least my stove manual says not to do such - use outside air only.


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## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> PTL I'm still even here !! No other explanation. And I didn't fly airplanes in times of war. Those who did I'm sure are double grateful.


Only thing in this world that scares me is my beautiful bride!


heat seeker said:


> Hope you don't suck in some gas vapors. I think that may be against code - at least my stove manual says not to do such - use outside air only.


Store gas in combustibles cabinet or outside in shed.


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 10, 2015)

I'm fairly certain that this large (what is it? 1/8"?) mesh in that nearly 3" ID tube isn't causing a restriction.






If that's a restriction then I have no idea how my <2" pipe breaths through this tight-mesh screen:




I even taped off half of my inlet as an experiment based on a post by Mike from ESW and it still barely affected the burn.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

OP, how you making out ?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

I think the OP went AWOL.

Hi Heat Seeker.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

woodmakesheat said:


> I'm fairly certain that this large (what is it? 1/8"?) mesh in that nearly 3" ID tube isn't causing a restriction.
> 
> 
> View attachment 150185
> ...




I suspect that in your case there is a short almost direct run between the intake on your stove and outside on your OAK run.  I don't believe it it true for the OPs run, I'm not certain but I think the OAK run on the OPs setup has a few bends in it.  Further it looks like that mesh has crud on it never a good sign.  As OAK runs get longer you have to increase the size of the plumbing used.   I asked for a picture so we could see the stuff behind the curtain.

It only takes a little bit here and a little more over there to screw up the air flow  And in this case the intake is also higher than the vent outlet also not a good thing..


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## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> I suspect that in your case there is a short almost direct run between the intake on your stove and outside on your OAK run.  I don't believe it it true for the OPs run, I'm not certain but I think the OAK run on the OPs setup has a few bends in it.  Further it looks like that mesh has crud on it never a good sign.  As oak runs get longer you have to increase the size of the plumbing used.   I asked for a picture so we could see the stuff behind the curtain.
> 
> It only takes a little bit here and a little more over there to screw up the air flow  And in this case the intake is also higher than the vent outlet also not a good thing..


Actually as part of this experiment he is undergoing I'd be temped to say just pull the OAK line off at the stove for now.

Meanwhile I'd love to hear if his stove is making heat, not making heat, if he is re plumbing everything or burning the house down ( lovingly kidding of course).


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## GeHmTS (Jan 10, 2015)

EricHahn said:


> He did not do a draft test.
> Eric



You should definitely get this done.  You may have a loose gasket somewhere.  I think people talk about doing the dollar bill test.

What did the dealer do when he was out last time to give you the temporary result of high heat?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

Well at least I got to post a couple of things from my TV and the wireless input devices disentangled from the wifi link while waiting.


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## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Well at least I got to post a couple of things from my TV and the wireless input devices disentangled from the wifi link while waiting.


I finally got the fake Christmas tree out to the shed, recovered over the chipper while outside. Came in rode my bike in the stationary stand. Went to the piano and rehearsed for Tues Night's service, sat and had tea and did some reading. Now I'm texting my daughter and hanging out here. Oh and I filled the hopper with pellets for the night.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

The decoration express left on platform #9 on December 27 here, we didn't need it up any longer considering we have the little one (13+ months ) running around and standing on tip toes reaching for things.  The stuff was up for one week plus two days.

Well, I think I'll go upstairs and see how the Pizza is coming along.


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 10, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> I suspect that in your case there is a short almost direct run between the intake on your stove and outside on your OAK run.  I don't believe it it true for the OPs run, I'm not certain but I think the OAK run on the OPs setup has a few bends in it.  Further it looks like that mesh has crud on it never a good sign.  As OAK runs get longer you have to increase the size of the plumbing used.   I asked for a picture so we could see the stuff behind the curtain.
> 
> It only takes a little bit here and a little more over there to screw up the air flow  And in this case the intake is also higher than the vent outlet also not a good thing..



Mine has an "S" shape due to running it through the flange of the exhaust thimble, but it is less than 2' long. I have no issue with the possibility of an airflow issue, but the contribution from that loose mesh screen on that large of a diameter is miniscule.

For reference, this 5.5" diameter opening from the filter on my supercharged GT500 passes air across this much tighter mesh at 950 CFM - or greater than 3X the CFM per square inch compared to the one the OP has (I did the math  )


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## F4jock (Jan 10, 2015)

alternativeheat said:


> ".... rehearsed for Tues Night's service.....


Did you hear about the Higgs-Boson particle that went into the church and said "You can't have mass without me?"


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## alternativeheat (Jan 10, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Did you hear about the Higgs-Boson particle that went into the church and said "You can't have mass without me?"


Oh boy !


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Did you hear about the Higgs-Boson particle that went into the church and said "You can't have mass without me?"



Really?


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## heat seeker (Jan 10, 2015)

Hi Smokey.

A GT500 has a much more powerful air motivator than a pellet stove. Just sayin'. I have a 3" OAK, and the inlet has ¼" screening on it. So far, so good.


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 10, 2015)

heat seeker said:


> Hi Smokey.
> 
> A GT500 has a much more powerful air motivator than a pellet stove. Just sayin'. I have a 3" OAK, and the inlet has ¼" screening on it. So far, so good.



It's all about pressure drop - the restriction of that engine filter is small as it should be to minimize horsepower loss, and large mesh 3" is so small as to be insignificant - especially whereas I covered 50% of my tight mesh 2" OAK with barely any difference in burn.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

woodmakesheat said:


> Mine has an "S" shape due to running it through the flange of the exhaust thimble, but it is less than 2' long. I have no issue with the possibility of an airflow issue, but the contribution from that loose mesh screen on that large of a diameter is miniscule.
> 
> For reference, this 5.5" diameter opening from the filter on my supercharged GT500 passes air across this much tighter mesh at 950 CFM - or greater than 3X the CFM per square inch compared to the one the OP has (I did the math  )
> 
> View attachment 150220




Yes but you have a 950 CFM sucker, it is sort of like using a leaf blower to clean a pellet roaster that sucker can move far more junk and air through a lot of twists and turns than the exhaust blower on most stoves.  

Which makes even a minor hindrance an issue.


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 10, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Yes but you have a 950 CFM sucker, it is sort of like using a leaf blower to clean a pellet roaster that sucker can move far more junk and air through a lot of twists and turns than the exhaust blower on most stoves.
> 
> Which makes even a minor hindrance an issue.



If a stove has issues with long twisting pipe, then _that's_ the issue. Each contribution is like a resistor in series - they add up.  Focusing on what can't be more than a 1% contribution (that large mesh screen) can't be all that worthwhile IMO.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

woodmakesheat said:


> If a stove has issues with long twisting pipe, then _that's_ the issue. Each contribution is like a resistor in series - they add up.  Focusing on what can't be more than a 1% contribution (that large mesh screen) can't be all that worthwhile IMO.




I'll take any and all reductions in hindrances to air flow, no matter where I can get them.


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 10, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> I'll take any and all reductions in hindrances to air flow, no matter where I can get them.



Well, good thing my team just won a very stressful game and I am not tired of discussing this yet. 

That's what I say about my engine where _any_ inlet pressure drop is a multiplied loss since it's before the supercharger.

Since most stoves are overblown, they have input dampers on them to limit intake air or the combustion blower motor is running on just a fraction of it's maximum setting (4 of 9 on my stove), I assume that any stove that has proven it can run properly over a 24 hour period likely has the restriction after the air inlet to the stove - as I think is usually the case. Am I wrong?


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## GeHmTS (Jan 10, 2015)

woodmakesheat said:


> Well, good thing my team just won a very stressful game and I am not tired of discussing this yet.



I thought the game was over when the Patriots were running out the clock.  I came back and Baltimore had the ball and throwing a hell marry pass.  Message to self, "never walk away until the time runs out."


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 10, 2015)

GeHmTS said:


> I thought the game was over when the Patriots were running out the clock.  I came back and Baltimore had the ball and throwing a hell marry pass.  Message to self, "never walk away until the time runs out."



OMG! I was doing a victory dance when Brady kneeled even though I was just explaining to my daughter that 1:39 - 1:15 = 0:24. Lesson: math is never wrong. Lol. Pats nearly gave me a heart attack in that one!


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## bogieb (Jan 10, 2015)

woodmakesheat said:


> OMG! I was doing a victory dance when Brady kneeled even though I was just explaining to my daughter that 1:39 - 1:15 = 0:14. Lesson: math is never wrong. Lol. Pats nearly gave me a heart attack in that one!



Yeah, someone on the Pats side wasn't good with math. Of course it didn't help that they put 10 seconds back on the clock after the timeout was called.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

woodmakesheat said:


> Well, good thing my team just won a very stressful game and I am not tired of discussing this yet.
> 
> That's what I say about my engine where _any_ inlet pressure drop is a multiplied loss since it's before the supercharger.
> 
> Since most stoves are overblown, they have input dampers on them to limit intake air or the combustion blower motor is running on just a fraction of it's maximum setting (4 of 9 on my stove), I assume that any stove that has proven it can run properly over a 24 hour period likely has the restriction after the air inlet to the stove - as I think is usually the case. Am I wrong?



If that stove was running properly it would have gone a lot longer than it did, just like your unit can burn over a ton without the doors being cracked open.

I will assume nothing.  That is why I want pictures and the oak screen removed.


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## GeHmTS (Jan 10, 2015)

The Patriot defense suck.  They are going to have to do much better job if they expect to win the big one.


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## heat seeker (Jan 10, 2015)

GeHmTS said:


> I thought the game was over when the Patriots were running out the clock.  I came back and Baltimore had the ball and throwing a hell marry pass.  Message to self, "never walk away until the time runs out."



"It ain't over until it's over!" - Yogi Berra


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 10, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> and the oak screen removed.



I'll give you credit for one thing - you're gonna stick to your guns even knowing that the screen, as pictured, couldn't possibly be causing enough of a restriction to mean anything. Now inside the OAK tube might be a 10 foot long, 1" flex tube twisted into a knot, and I also don't like the intake being at the same height or above the exhaust. But I will not be conceding that a large mesh screen should be removed no matter how many times it's repeated.  I do wonder what the talk of Harman's sometimes being sensitive to OAKs and the talk of damper adjustments and vacuum measurements is all about.   It kind of fits into the Englander "OAK MUST be used" instructions - it seems stoves are optimized at the engineering level one way or the other.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 10, 2015)

woodmakesheat said:


> I'll give you credit for one thing - you're gonna stick to your guns even knowing that the screen, as pictured, couldn't possibly be causing enough of a restriction to mean anything. Now inside the OAK tube might be a 10 foot long, 1" flex tube twisted into a knot, and I also don't like the intake being at the same height or above the exhaust. But I will not be conceding that a large mesh screen should be removed no matter how many times it's repeated.  I do wonder what the talk of Harman's sometimes being sensitive to OAKs and the talk of damper adjustments and vacuum measurements is all about.   It kind of fits into the Englander "OAK MUST be used" instructions - it seems stoves are optimized at the engineering level one way or the other.



The Harman draft adjustment is to make allowances for the differences in the house hold voltage at the actual install location.  Likewise the damper adjustments are used to tune the stove to the particular vent system is has attached.  Your damper is called LBA the other feed trim is called LFF or something like that that is used to fine tune the Fuel/Air (Oxygen but it isn't quite that at times) ratio.

Not all stoves are overblown either.

Yes they are set to comply with regulations more than anything else these days.  You might want to know that Harman strongly recommends the use of an OAK as well.

It is also mandatory under certain conditions for all stoves.

Anything in the air flow path will degrade the stoves ability to burn correctly, they basically operate on a very fine edge.  When they tip they really can be infuriating.  I hope you never find out how infuriating they can be.


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## woodmakesheat (Jan 10, 2015)

> The Harman draft adjustment is to make allowances for the differences in the house hold voltage at the actual install location. Likewise the damper adjustments are used to tune the stove to the particular vent system is has attached. Your damper is called LBA the other feed trim is called LFF or something like that is used to fine tune the Fuel/Air (Oxygen but it isn't quite that at times) ratio.



Thanks for the explanation. I have played with the LBA/LFF adjustments on mine and was glad that I was able to follow the "minimum path lengths are best" in my setup as factory settings worked best. I realize each stove needs to be dialed in and that the O/P unit seems either to not be dialed in or has a factory defect.



SmokeyTheBear said:


> Not all stoves are overblown either.
> Yes they are set to comply with regulations more than anything else these days. You might want to know that Harman strongly recommends the use of an OAK as well.
> It is also mandatory under certain conditions for all stoves.



I agree that OAKs are always a good thing. I would like to note that Harman has found an exception to EPA requirements and most of their stoves are _not_ EPA certified. All they say is that they comply with a 35:1 air/fuel ratio and point to some other specification that allows the exemption from EPA certification. This is why they only list input ratings which confuses people into thinking that the rated input number is the output rating. No emissions are listed either. This kind of implies that they are overblown for the sake of meeting said exemption - at least that's how I read it.



SmokeyTheBear said:


> I hope you never find out how infuriating they can be.



I have had a few moments. For instance I left an ash dump flap on one side of the stove not slid all the way in and woke up to a stove with a lot of ash on the window the day after a cleaning. The mess was biased to one side of the stove. Just today I figured out why it was so dramatic - the intake air was bypassing the burn pot by passing through the ash drawer and up the side of the combustion chamber.

On another day I grabbed some loose bags of pellets at the box store (yes, they were under overhang) to try out and one bag must've been wet and it made black puff inside the combustion chamber and throughout the exhaust - what a mess - I got that crap all over me while tapping the vertical outside.

Once when I emptied the "T" cleanout I accidentally let that crap blow all over the place. I went inside and noted a lazy flame and a hint of smoke. Hmmmm, could it be? I went outside and wiped the ash off of the fine mesh on the OAK inlet and I could even hear the difference right away!! lol. So that's advice - if you have a fine mesh screen, vacuum or at least wipe it once in a while. 

And I've learned that a tall yellow lazy flame after 10 or more days since a cleaning means "clean me now".


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## F4jock (Jan 12, 2015)

Soooooo. What happened to the OP??


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## Harman Lover 007 (Jan 12, 2015)

After 156 posts, is that a question that really needs to be asked?


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## alternativeheat (Jan 12, 2015)

F4jock said:


> Soooooo. What happened to the OP??


I figure it was either a total success and he isn't the type to report back the facts. Or it was a total failure and has looked for other means of repair or just bailed on pellet heat all together.  Some people aren't into fellowship ? I.E. I don't know.


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## F4jock (Jan 12, 2015)

Harman Lover 007 said:


> After 156 posts, is that a question that really needs to be asked?


OP was on the thread today.


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