# EKO 40 1500 gallon Storage project



## Ryedale (Nov 29, 2010)

Ok Got the pics working.....I think.

I began working on the storage tank arrangement for my boiler. 
This seems to be the most difficult and time consuming portion of the project.  The fact that I'm not using a "prebuilt" or "off the shelf" storage tank makes for many hours of comtemplation and "engineering". 

I bought a used bulk milk tank in March of 09, and with other projects continuing to bump the boiler on the priority list, I'm finally really focused on this. 

The tank is Stainless Steel, and was once mounted on the back of a truck to go out to farms and pick up milk.  I suspect it is from the 60's or early 70's as it had remnants of cork insulation.  

OK... Stainless is Impervious to problems.....right???? thats what I thought when bought the tank, "it will never rust out like a carbon steel tank, should last forever" I was thinking....well.....
    I work at a large pharmaceutical company, and have become aware of a problem that can destroy stainless steel systems, like tanks, pipes, pumps etc.  It's called CUI, or Corrosion Under Insulation and SCC....Stress Corrosion Cracking. I've seen a few references to it here at Hearth.com This probem is intensified in hot and wet climates. 
    We have an example of a major macro failure on our site with this problem.  It's about a $10,000,000 pipe system that feeds our chem buildings, the pipe is 4in stainless "tube" thinwall pipe all connected by tri-clover type dairy fittings.  The pipe was installed as recently as 6 years ago, and has failed due to this corrosion. 
    The insulation is Polyisocyanurate (urethane type) and the jacketing leaked, allowing water to sit between the insulation and the bare stainless.  This pipe runs constantly at 150 degrees F.  It's actually is a loop, with a type of water called "Low endotoxin water"  super purified, only one step away from becoming "water for injection" which can be litterally safely injected into people..like IV fluid etc.  It's kept at this high temp to keep it pasteurized all the time. 
 This water leaking through the outer jacketing allowed it to sit in a hot, wet environment, creating halides, IE chlorine, coming out of the insulation and has turned the pipe to something like swiss cheese. it has spider cracking and it "weeps" water in hundreds of places, the only repair is to replace the pipe.  The new installation will require a "coating" put on by painters before the new insulation is installed.  
So... there went my idea of an inpervious stainless installation.  Thus, the barrier between the tank and the insulation. 

Due to the size of the tank, I need to put it in the pole barn, along with the EKO 40.  I will have an insulated room 16'x16' and the "storage tank box" will be inside this room.  Minimizing heat losses is one of my highest priorities.  
so...
1  minimize heat loss
2 don't destroy the tank by accident, or poor engineering.

I have come up with a soloution to both and will post some pictures of the project as I go.  Feel free to offer suggestions, as long as they aren't a "total abandonment" of my path   go easy on me. 

When I received the tank it had three carbon steel rings that originally served to mount the tank to the truck, I have removed them and cleaned the tar coating (under the original cork insulation) and basicly got the tank down to clean stainless. 
Wall thickness is .100 in, or about 12 ga. I believe they helped to keep the shape of the tank, and in a "Moving" application with no baffles in the tank, it needed the strength. I am not using the carbon rings, and will let the tank sit in a saddle.  

Due to the massive weight of the tank I have made a plywood bulkhead saddle arrangement, the tank will slip into this like a cartridge into a magazine.  The tank will touch only clean spruce or pine, and care will be taken that when I spray the insulation (contractor will do actually) the backside of the wood slats will be sealed so no insulation can touch the stainless.  My tank will be indoors, and shouldn't get wet, but hopefully "halides" won't form if i do barf the tank over somehow, and water gets into the insulation.  It should be able to be dried also, I can just vent the outside of the tank until everything dries out again. 

Here are some pics (hosted at photobucket) showing my progress so far.

original condition of tank.....icky!







Using Carbon steel ring to pattern the tank 
































Lining the frames with furring strips, added tremendous strength.  My son was really bummed when I slid the tank in, no more "fort" 






Lets get the whole family involved 

















Nice tight fit











Almost there......


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## sparke (Nov 29, 2010)

The link works if you copy/paste the whole link.  Anyway, nice carpentry job.  Where are your pipe taps?


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## joecool85 (Nov 29, 2010)

Ryedale said:
			
		

> STILL WORKING ON PICTURES, can I add more than one IMG link to Photobucket??



It's not working due to the space in "BOILER PROJECTS".  This forum doesn't like spaces in the URL.  If you change that on photobucket to something else you will be good.  Use a dash or something instead of a space.

**edit**
Forgot to say, looks good so far.  And I like the idea of keeping a small air gap around the tank.  Should last forever the way you're doing it.


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## ewdudley (Nov 29, 2010)

sparke said:
			
		

> The link works if you copy/paste the whole link.  Anyway, nice carpentry job.  Where are your pipe taps?



(Paste the URL, then replace double spaces with a single space.)


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## Ryedale (Nov 29, 2010)

joecool85 said:
			
		

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Thanks, it worked. 
sorry for the delays.


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## Ryedale (Nov 29, 2010)

sparke said:
			
		

> The link works if you copy/paste the whole link.  Anyway, nice carpentry job.  Where are your pipe taps?



Pipe taps are going in the end with the drain port.  There will be at least 4, and as many as 6 or 8    1" pipe couplers welded into the end. 
I have a friend who is going to Tig them in.  I have done some Tig welding, however with the tank metal being .100 thick, I wanted a "skilled" person doing this important step.  Welding will probably happen in the next week or two. then onto heat exchangers.


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## taxidermist (Nov 29, 2010)

Man it looks pretty cool! Where do you live?


Rob


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## pybyr (Nov 29, 2010)

That's truly impressive!


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## ewdudley (Nov 29, 2010)

Ryedale said:
			
		

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Good answer!

What is the elevation of the pole barn relative to the rest of the system?  It would be a shame to fool with heat exchangers if a vented expansion tank in the rafters could allow you to tie the system together without any heat exchangers.

--ewd


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## Ryedale (Nov 30, 2010)

taxidermist said:
			
		

> Man it looks pretty cool! Where do you live?
> 
> 
> Rob



Thanks it was rewarding to get that much done.  I imagined the tank not fitting, but it slipped in pretty close.  I'm in the Kalamazoo area.


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## Ryedale (Nov 30, 2010)

ewdudley said:
			
		

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Tank and EKO on same level, on the slab in the pole barn
Planning on running Central thermopex to the house, feeding domestic water side-arm, and 19x20" coil for the forced air furnace. 
Top of the tank has a manhole access which would be very difficult to keep sealed in a closed system.  Could probably circulate tank water to house, using pump in the basement, It would be flooded pump, not lose prime.   I'm trying to avoid the 1500 gallons ever getting into the basement (Pipe failure etc, flood basement with 180 degree water while away.   )  Open to ideas. 

Andy


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## dogwood (Nov 30, 2010)

Ingenious method of rolling the tank in too. I liked the upside down casters you had near the opening. I also like how nice and shiney you got the tank. Brought back fond memories of our own thousand gallon ammonia nurse tank sanded down before repainting. Great fit into the opening as well. You did some good measuring work there. How many hours did you put into the carpentry? Did you mention what you'll be insulating with? And from the pictures it appears you got your wife to do most of the heavy lifting pushing the tank into place, which is an equally impressive achievement on your part. I showed the last picture to my wife, as we have to move our tank six inches closer to the wall. Not to be outdone, she said she'd get right on it. Nice work in all regards.

Mike


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## ewdudley (Nov 30, 2010)

Ryedale said:
			
		

> Tank and EKO on same level, on the slab in the pole barn
> Planning on running Central thermopex to the house, feeding domestic water side-arm, and 19x20" coil for the forced air furnace.
> Top of the tank has a manhole access which would be very difficult to keep sealed in a closed system.  Could probably circulate tank water to house, using pump in the basement, It would be flooded pump, not lose prime.   I'm trying to avoid the 1500 gallons ever getting into the basement (Pipe failure etc, flood basement with 180 degree water while away.   )  Open to ideas.
> 
> Andy



I was envisioning the manhole welded shut or bolted in place with a decent gasket, should hold for three psi I would think.

But I don't have an answer for the flood risk except to suggest that a stout piping and a reliable check valve at the tank where the house loop returns to the tank should eliminate any possibility of the tank draining into the house.

Then all you'd need is a 60 gallon open expansion tank six feet higher than any other component in the system and a 1.00" or larger boiler blow-off safety pipe that feeds into the top of the open expansion tank.

--ewd


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## Donl (Nov 30, 2010)

Unbelievable!   Do I see someone here that has built canoes in the past?

Don


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## sdrobertson (Nov 30, 2010)

Ryedale said:
			
		

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Beautiful work.  One thing that I would warn you on is watch for condensation while filling the tank.  You should be alright this time of year but if its warm in the building and you fill it with cold water it might want to start to really sweat.  If you do get allot of water, just fire the boiler to heat it up to dry out all that wood before you insulate.  

Hesperia Michigan here.


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## joecool85 (Nov 30, 2010)

sdrobertson said:
			
		

> Beautiful work.  One thing that I would warn you on is watch for condensation while filling the tank.  You should be alright this time of year but if its warm in the building and you fill it with cold water it might want to start to really sweat.  If you do get allot of water, just fire the boiler to heat it up to dry out all that wood before you insulate.
> 
> Hesperia Michigan here.



Good point, and I agree.


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## Ryedale (Nov 30, 2010)

sdrobertson said:
			
		

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Someone mentioned that to me.  I think our ground water is about 50 to 55 degrees, so as long as it's colder than that when I fill I should be ok, I'll leave the "boiler room" open to the fresh air.   Good point, I will have it insulated so it should have minimum air contact while filling but I appreciate the thoughts of the group. 
Andy


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## bigburner (Nov 30, 2010)

I have a large mass boiler that holds 1200 gal +/- . on the start up it sweats so bad you would swear it was leaking, I tried small fire, big fire, it just sweats. No way to measure it, but a guess is 20 gals. I also use open storage on part of my system. Nice job on the woodwork.


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## Ryedale (Dec 1, 2010)

bigburner said:
			
		

> I have a large mass boiler that holds 1200 gal +/- . on the start up it sweats so bad you would swear it was leaking, I tried small fire, big fire, it just sweats. No way to measure it, but a guess is 20 gals. I also use open storage on part of my system. Nice job on the woodwork.




Guessing start up means filling the 1200 boiler tank with fresh cold water??   Do you empty and then fill each heating season?


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## brad068 (Dec 1, 2010)

Hey Ryedale,

Just reading your first post and see you have also seen ss failure in a unique situation. I too had an experience will some potent chemical called ferric chloride @ 38% conc. It sat in a 12 Ga. 316 ss pan for 3 days and ate holes right through it!

On a different note, your tank looks alot like mine. I left the foam insulation and outer shell on for added R value.


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## Ryedale (Dec 1, 2010)

Garnification said:
			
		

> Hey Ryedale,
> 
> Just reading your first post and see you have also seen ss failure in a unique situation. I too had an experience will some potent chemical called ferric chloride @ 38% conc. It sat in a 12 Ga. 316 ss pan for 3 days and ate holes right through it!
> 
> On a different note, your tank looks alot like mine. I left the foam insulation and outer shell on for added R value.



I know we cannot always plan for every variable, after all we aren't going to the moon, but the more we see in our careers the more we can apply to our own equipment.  Unfortunately it can stall our projects (I'm famous for this LOL) 
Hydrochloric acid basically dissolves stainless, very quickly like you said the ferric chloride did, there has been more than one occasion where acids have been introduced to lines, pumps and tanks where I work and they are being replaced shortly after.....very expensive mistakes.


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## bigburner (Dec 1, 2010)

"Guessing start up means filling the 1200 boiler tank with fresh cold water??  Do you empty and then fill each heating season? "

 it's empty now. doing a re pipe on the return line. I wouldn't matter any way. the water has to be pretty warm before it doesn't sweat. In my case there is 300/400 feet of 3 inch heat exchanger that has to get up temp before the flue gas doesn't condensate and run out the ends. The shell isn't insulated and that will sweat also just not as bad. In your case I would finish the project and fire it up. The sweating in your case would only be from the dew point, if it's completely insulated and say a little air gets in there it might get damp but as soon as it gets warm it will dry out. I too have had a very bad experience with S.S. in large commercial ice making equipment, to the tune of 6k


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## DaveBP (Dec 1, 2010)

Most people don't realize that "stainless steel" is a marketing term, not an engineering term. Salesmen don't repair the things they sell.


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## in hot water (Dec 1, 2010)

Nice work on the support. Looks like you are the "go to" craftsman should we ever need an ark 

 What temperatures do you plan on running?  My experience with radiant heat installation on plywood and other manufactured products is 140F max.  Will the pine strips insulate higher temperatures away from the plywood so the adhesives stay intact?  Maybe the air gap around the tank will provide some isolation.


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## Ryedale (Dec 1, 2010)

in hot water said:
			
		

> Nice work on the support. Looks like you are the "go to" craftsman should we ever need an ark
> 
> What temperatures do you plan on running?  My experience with radiant heat installation on plywood and other manufactured products is 140F max.  Will the pine strips insulate higher temperatures away from the plywood so the adhesives stay intact?  Maybe the air gap around the tank will provide some isolation.



Ahhh, you almost had me on this one.... I was suddenly a little puckered.
I bought my plywood on sale at Menards from their "premium" section about $29 per sheet, comparable with good treated and better cdx and bcx grades. Normally $32 or $34  a sheet I think.  
when I looked into it I found it was Interior and Exterior grade, thinking it would hold up to direct moisture or liquid water very well.  So no problem there, now the temp issue. 
I just got off the phone with the manufacturer of the product  (AraucoPly) and on the Structural Properties cut sheet.

It says.....
_AraucoPly is glued with a WBP Phenolic Resin  The glue line meets European EN 314 and US PS1-07 standards.  TECO and PSI/PTL control in a continuous basis the quality of the glueline.  Formaldehyde emmision is below E1 level. _

Ok I looked up WBP Phenolic Resin.   It stands for *W*eather and *B*oilproof *P*henolic resin.  This is similar to most marine grade plywoods, the type used in fabrication of wood boats.  It has to pass a test where it literally is boiled for x hours in water, and cannot de-laminate.   

so... I think I dodged a bullet.  
The technician in Georgia, the importer/manufacturer is going to try to get me a cut sheet on the resin, but it sounds like I'm safe.


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## Ryedale (Jan 10, 2011)

Boiler Project Update. 

I think the Valentines Day startup is now a fantasy. 

I have been swamped with my little side business consuming most my weekends and evenings.  

I was able to get some work done however this weekend when caught up.  The "boiler room" a 16 x 15 room inside my pole barn will house the tank and the EKO.  

Heres kind of a bad angle shot of the room..... Basic 2x4 construction,   2x6 ceiling joists, leaving a nice loft above for storage.  My barn has an inside wall height of 12 feet, and the new boiler room will have an 8 foot inside ceiling, leaving about 40 inches of space above to stash light weight things.  Probably run a small beam to support the roof inside the boiler room. 

The Welder called today, and using my Tig, he was able to weld in the 1" SS couplings, which I will be able to attach outer and inner threaded fittings, nipples, unions etc to get the coils hooked up. 

This guy is a wizzard with the TIG torch.  Look at his beautiful welds.   He's a career welder at the plant, so this was quite easy for him.   If I had done it I probably wouldnt publish the pics.  
We opted to remove and patch the bottom fitting.  If I ever need to remove all the water I can just suck it out the top with a Wilden pump.  I can still gravity drain it down to the bottom foot or so in the tank.  Hoping I wont have to do this often.


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## Nofossil (Jan 10, 2011)

Quite the project. I'm ashamed to look at mine now :-(


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## bigburner (Jan 10, 2011)

Top notch! Glad to hear you are busy in a side business in Michigan. If you don't mind me asking, what is it?


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## Ryedale (Jan 10, 2011)

nofossil said:
			
		

> Quite the project. I'm ashamed to look at mine now :-(



Hey.... not to worry..It may look pretty but it is also taking years to complete, (mostly due to lack of dedicated hours to the project). 

I've learned with my normal "pre-engineering",  I have a very difficult time starting things, and this project seems to have so many directions it seemed insurmountable in my head.  My buddy prompted me to just pick one thing and start going forward one piece at a time.  I chose the tank, and hoping the rest will seem easier after this is done.


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## Ryedale (Jan 10, 2011)

bigburner said:
			
		

> Top notch! Glad to hear you are busy in a side business in Michigan. If you don't mind me asking, what is it?



Don't want to get in trouble for advertising so I'll just link it.  


www.pennysorter.com


It's very busy in the winter months when people are holed up and looking through their coins.  I've sold over 70 machines since the first of November, but only 3 in the entire month of September.   It's cyclical with the price of copper too.  People are either hoarding the pennies, or reselling them on Ebay or to private collectors.   So I'm pretty happy to have completed as much on the boiler as I have.   
If anybody wants to discuss it please PM me.  

Thanks  
Andy


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## bigburner (Jan 10, 2011)

next step is buy eight ball valves & nipples. can't go wrong with to many valves. Have you ever had a chain that was to long, bet you have had a few that were to short!! "just saying"


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## Nofossil (Jan 10, 2011)

bigburner said:
			
		

> next step is buy eight ball valves & nipples. can't go wrong with to many valves. Have you ever had a chain that was to long, bet you have had a few that were to short!! "just saying"



I come from aerospace, where part of the design philosophy is that a part that you don't have can't fail.

When I did my original plumbing, a wise old plumber advised me to put gate valves on either side of all my pumps and zone valves to that they could be isolated and replaced. Ball valves seem a lot nicer, so I used them for the same purpose in some places.

Here's the problem: if any gate valve weeps a bit, tightening the packing nut solves it. The ball valves that I have can't be repaired - when they leak, they have to be replaced. That's a big headache, especially in a part that was installed for the purpose of isolating other components.


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## joecool85 (Jan 10, 2011)

nofossil said:
			
		

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Ball valves last practically forever though, so replacement isn't much of an issue.  Sure, 80 years down the road it may be a problem, but the odds of that current heating system still being in use are low at that point.


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## Ryedale (Jan 10, 2011)

Good points on the valves.  I have seen both fail one way or another.  Working with water softening equipment, i've found the gates can get so corroded, you can't budge them without the zinc handles breaking off.  
At work, ball valves often leak by, but i've had gates do the same.  Bad deal with exotic chemicals in the lines at my workplace.  I think mostly I'll be looking for full port.  Thanks for the ideas either way.  
See this is why I can't ever get anything done,  too many decisions and contingencies before actually turning a wrench.


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## bigburner (Jan 10, 2011)

nofossil -It looks like a rocket, but I don't think it is. I have installed maybe 300 ball valves in the last few years with no problems. All valves have a weep allowance but most smaller ones don't leak at all, either way its better then no valve.


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## peakbagger (Jan 11, 2011)

I have specified and installed thousands of valves over the years when I worked as an engineer for a pulp and papermill. In a 24 hour operation, there is a high premium on being able to fix things "on the run" and a lot of the chemical systems are toxic or at least a PITA to drain and clean. I dont think I ever had a ball valve leak unless it was installed improperly. On the otherhand, it was expected that gate valves and butterfly valves would leak and a lot of them got damaged when people used the proverbial bigger wrench to try to get them to seal. I was impressed with high end plug valves which could be adjusted for wear but they were quite expensive. I had mixed luck with three piece ball valves, generally used on welded piping. They did work but reassembling them in the small sizes required manipulating a very tiny floppy o ring or gasket that if misinstalled had to be replaced. When I used three piece valves, I always had to buy spares that ended up being canniballized. The valves I avoided if at all possible were globe valves unless I needed throttling capability.


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## bigburner (Jan 11, 2011)

Ever put a globe valve in backwards, it's really cool the rubber seat un screws and then goes some where and plugs up the hardest thing to repair. Been there done that!!


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## DaveBP (Jan 11, 2011)

I think a lot of  soldered valve problems with DIYers, whatever the type of valve, come from too much heat used in the soldering process. I've seen some pro jobs that looked pretty scorched, too. Modern teflon seals might make it less common these days.


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## slowzuki (Jan 11, 2011)

I've had 2 failed ball valves in the last couple of years, one 1" had a casting defect, the other 1/2" leaked around the packing by the handle.  Wouldn't go back to gate valves though!


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## huffdawg (Jan 11, 2011)

We have well over 200 ball valves on our ship being used on all sorts of applications   fuel ,sewage ,water ,hydraulics  you name it.  I cant  remember having one bad one in the last 3 years.   I my opinion they are very reliable .


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## bigburner (Jan 11, 2011)

Bet I have close to a hundred on my system, maybe I'll count them and see!


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## in hot water (Jan 11, 2011)

A good quality ball valve will have a double o-ring on the shaft and a packing gland and nut to tighten.  You can spend a few bucks for a low quality import or over 30 bucks for a special purpose well built valve.

Usually valves that fail, regardless of the type, failed from being gummed up by bad fluid quality inside.  Then a big wrench is used and something has to give, usually the stem shaft on ball valves  Also overheating them at install can distort the seat the ball rotates in, making them impossible to turn.

hr


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## Ryedale (Oct 3, 2011)

Well I figured I'd resurect this thread again, and post an update on the progress. 

First off i'll openly admit that I've made this more difficult than it probably needs to be, but I like to compare this project to others who work on old cars, or restoration work etc.  This is my "Hot Rod" so I'm definately taking my time and trying to think this through...thoroughly. 

Anyway... much progress has been made since my last post, and yes I missed Valentines day by about a year. 

I will do the photoessay approach again.

Things that have slowed me down since January have been numerous, but necessary, including a 16' x 16' x 8' insulated room to house the boiler and tank within my large pole building.  The intent of the insulated room is again to minimize waste heat to the pole barn.  I figured the smaller I keep the delta-t, the less BTU's I lose to the barn/boiler room.  

So from the previous pictures where you saw the frames of the tank box sitting in the larger building, there is now this nice insulated room with a Man Door (Project in itself) and a nice insulated garage door to allow me to use a pallet truck to move crates/racks of seasoned wood into the room one at a time.  

So here is the latest with a few descriptions

The Man Door was a salvaged Round top oak door that I got from Grand Rapids Mi.  It was removed from an old house on the east side that was built in the 30's.  
The door had no jam, so I had to build a steam bent round top jam out of Red Oak. 
I cant tell you how long it took, but it's really neat looking now, and I'm happy with how it's coming out.  Not completed yet, i still need to trim the inside and decided to use "Z-Brick" on the outside to avoid trying to bend trim boards.  The inside will be the same or a varient of it with oak cut into a curve, or a sunburst.  
The door really sets off the boring boiler room and makes it feel old-fashioned.   I never recommend anybody building a round top Red Oak door jam.......ever. 






Inside not trimmed out yet, but heres a shot of the EKO 40 in the room. 





and now some of the insulating process.    I filled in as much as possible with some salvage Polyisocyanurate sheet that I cut and filled the major spaces around the tank.  This simply kept me from having to buy a large amount of closed cell spray foam.  once sealed up it has the same R-Value as the spray foam within 1 R per inch.   I'm figuring about R-6 on the Polyiso, and R7 on the spray foam.  


























http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/Ryedale_photo/BOILERPROJECT/photo1.jpg[/img]

Installing the immersion coil heat exchangers was difficult, as told by my expression when my wife snapped this photo.  And yes, I had fresh air pushing in constantly while working inside the tank using a small squirrel cage blower and some flex duct.  It was hot outside, and even though I was in the workshop out of the sun, the confinement and wrangling around in the tank, was like a continuous workout.  
I think I had been in the tank assembling the stainless steel frame, took the best part of a Saturday, in and out about 30 times. 





I mustered a smile for this one  





There are 3 copper 1" type K coils in the tank......Two are for rejecting heat from the boiler, and one is for absorbing for the loads.  

Here are a couple shots looking down into the tank from the manhole on the top, which is an 18" circle.  The 1" type K soft tubing proved very difficult to wrestle around into nice uniform loops on my Stainless Steel frames.  I used 15% silver brazing alloy on the joints so that if I had any galvanic corrosion it would not attack the softer Tin solder. Should last a long time. 












All the underground went in back over the 4th of July weekend.  
I used Rehau brand insulated 1" underground, which you can see sticking up through the floor. 
The other pipes are 
Cold Soft water from the house
Cold Hard water from the house
an air line to back feed the house compressed air if I ever wanted to. (or a spare water line)
and a 2" grey electrical conduit (plastic) to run my internet, phone, control wires if needed etc.
















I finished up this weekend by getting the chimney installed.  I was able to push the double wall "Tee" directly onto the back of the EKO, and i drilled and tapped the boiler exit stub and installed it with some 5/16" bolts, then stacked the chimney sections on up.  Some of the weight bears into the black box at the passthrough in the ceiling. I really enjoyed working with the chimney sections. It was almost too easy to use an engineered product after all of my "farm engineering" that went into the buildings, the door and especially the thermal storage tank.  











I'm sure with a little thinking I could easily find a more difficult way to install a chimney


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## henfruit (Oct 4, 2011)

Question why did you use just 1 inch pex? What is the btu output of the eko 40?Will that big large enough to carry all the btus your boiler will produce?


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## Gasifier (Oct 4, 2011)

Holy chit! I just got time to read the entire thread! You really are a talented man. Sweeeeeeeeet. I hope the system works great for you!


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## Ryedale (Oct 4, 2011)

henfruit said:
			
		

> Question why did you use just 1 inch pex? What is the btu output of the eko 40?Will that big large enough to carry all the btus your boiler will produce?



The boiler will feed only the two heat "reject" coils in the tank.  It will use 1 1/4 inch Black Iron pipe and then Tee into the two 1 inch coils.  

All heat will be put into the tank.  The tank is merely a large vessel of water that never circulates anywhere.   Just like this http://stsscoinc.com/

The "boiler" water will be the boiler jacket, and the line fill to and to/in the two copper coils.  

The house heat and domestic water will use the 1" insulated underground with it's own circuit of water.  

I'm planning a fairly large bypass water heater in the house with a mixing T (safety mixing T)  It will essentially be a "zone" 

The main heat for the house will be a hot water to air coil in my forced air furnace with an extra thermostat.


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## Ryedale (Nov 2, 2011)

UPDATE....

well I finished piping in the "heat the water" portion of the system,  and got most of the electrical done too.  Due to my black iron pipe, I chased leaks for about a week, and one additional leak has surfaced since heating the system,  and I'll fix it before I put my final charge of water into the system with the chemical. 

Some new photos....

I bought some surplus Brad Harrison connections, which allow me to completely remove the top turret where the controller is located, as well as disconnect my overheat , and fan power cord.  These things are very nice and I recommend anyone wanting to be able to remove panels without unwiring all the time, to look at Ebay for this system, very pricy from the supply house, but reasonable unused surplus avaialable on Ebay.  
Basicly you buy a 3 or 5 or 7 wire connector, male and female, they come with various length pigtails with different colored conductors all coded so you can continue your wires to the other side.  Then with a quick turn of the collar, you have it disconnected to be able to access your RTD or remove the fan without unwiring or taking the wire ends off the terminations.  


















Below you'll see my flow rate gauges that are placed on the return of each of the heat reject coils inside the tank. They are fitted with little valves to increase or decreas flow and fine tune the rate through each coil.  I had to abandon putting these in (temporarily) with black iron, as all the screwed fittings looked like.....a$$ and I just don't  have the experience with this type of piping to make it look good and not leak. I am planning on switching to a 1" Pex arrangement with crimp fittings, then hiding this setup in a small cabinet or box.  I still want them in on the return (cooler water and gages are rated for 210 degree water I think).  I will have a bypass to avoid these flowrate gauges if I want to .  I think it will be fun to see the flow increase as the primary loop on the boiler heats up.  I can use my delta temps and coil flow rates to determine how many BTU's are actually staying in the tank.  


























Brad Harrison system connector.......very nice. 










I picked up this nice old large temp gauge, and removed a small EKO factory plug in the top of the jacket, installed a brass thromowell, and then this gauge.  Thermowell allows removal of gauge and green sheet metal without opening the water system/draining the boiler.  
















The following is a picture of the controller before I switched out the wiring to the Brad Harrison connectors, note the flex going up to the overheat switch.    BTW the switch was sent with my package, and I contacted COZYHEAT and they weren't sure where this was wired in.  I ended up using the BH cables from the controller turret area, up to the switch, to open the fan on temperature rise, so if the water gets to 200 up there, I have it shut down the inducer blower fan... no matter what.  Basicly a safety if the controller fails,  or operator error IE stupidity.  







The next big steps....
Improving the primary air gates under the rediculously designed, paper thin green painted fan plenum, with zero access while running.  In fact... you have to open your fire doors to remove your green inducer plenum to adjust the primary air gates.  The thin metal that the green sheet metal is "screwed to" is also just about as thin, and is spot welded in to the boiler plate metal.  so you rely on two thin metals pinching a rope gasket to give steady pressure to the primary/secondary air gates/tubes. the green pinches the rope but the tack welded angle that the rope is stuck to, is not welded all the way around the perimeter, which causes smoke to leak out while the doors are open etc.  The engineers really failed on this air plenum I think, so....it will be upgraded, I'm not going to set up my boiler for 20 years and have this annoying setup. 
I am upgrading this soon.  With changing wood conditions, and relative humidity etc, and having read the extensive fine tuning section on the EKO, I firmly believe that one setting is not perfect for all burning conditions, especially with respect to flue drafts changing as outdoor conditions change.  

Not sure about the draft on this thing.  probably will be adding a fan to my stack although I hate to do this, but hate filling my boiler room with smoke even more while adding logs to the fire, or poking at the coals occationally.  My chimney height is only 16 feet above the TEE on the back of the boiler, going up throught the pole barn roof.  I have a Magnehelic (I'll post pictures) gauge that is showing anywhere from .015 to .03 Inches of water column of draft when the system is off.  This is lower than the book gives suggested settings for the air gates/tubes.   
Can anybody recommend a good smoke fan for the stack for creating draft when working on the fire?  I'm using 6 inch double wall insulated pipe from Menards (I can get the brand name later). 

Just had the house coil installed yesterday in the ductwork,  and will begin the "take heat away from the tank" piping this weekend.


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## Gasifier (Nov 2, 2011)

Ryedale,

First. You have done a beautiful job man. You are a craftsman. A patient, well disciplined, craftsman with plenty of tenacity. Nice job.  :coolsmile: 
Second. Dude. What the f_ _ _  is wrong with you!?  :lol: Have you ever been treated for PCD? That is Perfection Compulsive Disorder.
Third. I hope you burn this system for that 20 + years you are talking about. It is going to take you 10 to get the pay back out of it!  :lol: 

No. Seriously. Very, very nice job. I hope it performs as good as it looks. You and the wife will be happy people. Glad to see you are finally getting it on line and will be saving some money not heating with "the other fuel". Have a good one man, and keep us posted on performance. Thanks for sharing your project with us and all those awesome pics!


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## salecker (Nov 2, 2011)

Hi
 Looks great.
 Is the small tank sideways on the ceiling your only expansion tank?
 If it is...1 i think it would be to small
            2 i think you need a way to isolate it,so you can drain it in case it becomes waterloged.
            3 i think  your expansion tank should be downstream from your circ pump,you don't want to be pumping into the tank.
 Just in case it's just not in the pic's.
 Looks Great
 Thomas


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## Fred61 (Nov 2, 2011)

Do you have a T&P relief valve plumbed in and if so where? The reason I'm asking is that I see a ball valve in the line between the boiler and the expansion tank. When you get old and feeble like me that could be a problem. Even though you aren't going to be shutting off things on a regular basis, accidentally leaving it closed and firing the boiler it is a  receipe for potential disaster.


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## Ryedale (Nov 2, 2011)

salecker said:
			
		

> Hi
> Looks great.
> Is the small tank sideways on the ceiling your only expansion tank?
> If it is...1 i think it would be to small
> ...



I have the auto air eliminator, as well as the hand vent (by the galvanized bucket) the hand valve is actually the highest in the system.  I fill the system from the bottom and up, with the hand valve open, before any pressure is registering on the gauges.  I hope this is getting out any bulk amounts of air. I have let it fill a couple times, and run a little then vent down at the high points again.  I think the tank is suppose to have water and not air right?  The port for the exp tank is "half a pipe" lower than either of the air bleeds, so I'm hoping most the air is going out before it goes into the tank.  
The closed system holds the volume of the boiler, plus the 1 1/4 pipe, and the ~400 feet of 1" copper heat exchangers in the tank, not sure what the volume is but I have noticed that I'm building pressure from where I start at ambient temp around 65 or 70 at 8psi, and it likes to be around 18 when up to temp the highest I've seen is 172 on the loop so far.  The 1500 gallons in the big tank are just thermal battery, just being heated up, and then cooling off with house loads.  I call it the "Stupid water" lol.  

I started heating the big tank of water this past weekend, and got the top up to 130, the bottom is about 110 right now. A 20 degree delta top to bottom.  

The circ pump is low and pushes directly into the bottom of the boiler, and the boiler feeds right out to the highest line.  Then past the Pop safety valve (30psi) into the air eliminator, past the TEE for the tank,  then finally to the bypass or recirculation loop, which goes down the wall past the two pressure gauges and the throttling valve.  I use the throttling valve to put a little more pressure going towards the heat exchangers, so it is forced out to the tank except enough for the 3 way thermic valve to sense boiler water temp.  Then turns back through a strainer and into the inlet of the pump.  
The pics didn't show the pipe arrangement the best, so I'll probably draw a diagram and post it up here.


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## Ryedale (Nov 2, 2011)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> Do you have a T&P relief valve plumbed in and if so where? The reason I'm asking is that I see a ball valve in the line between the boiler and the expansion tank. When you get old and feeble like me that could be a problem. Even though you aren't going to be shutting off things on a regular basis, accidentally leaving it closed and firing the boiler it is a  receipe for potential disaster.



Believe me....I feel old and feeble already after wrestling that black iron for a couple weeks.  

My Pics are kindof mixed, and that one with the valve is now gone (valve is gone) But just to the left (upstream) of where that valve is pictured, there is a 30lb pop (like a water heater has) right to its  left, and remains there today, it has the yellow flag on it.   I wanted the pop between the boiler and_ any _first valve on the outlet.

This pic shows the final arrangement,  water flowing up out of the boiler (cut off on the left) and turning right along the ceiling past the pop, then a union, Air eliminator, past the tank tee,  then it has a choice of going to the tank (straight to the right) or turning left back toward the wall on it's return to  the boiler past the thermic valve near the floor, not show is the thermic valve, strainer and pump.  
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/Ryedale_photo/BOILERPROJECT/boiler6-2.jpg


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## Fred61 (Nov 2, 2011)

I see it!


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## PassionForFire&Water (Nov 2, 2011)

Nice Job !

Any source for that "Perfection Compulsive Disorder" ?


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## Hunderliggur (Nov 3, 2011)

If I understand correctly, your boiler goes to an in tank HX to heat the storage.  If so, the smallish expansion tank will probably work.  You may want to plumb an unrestricted drain to the pop valve (Temperature/Pressure Relief valve) so when it DOES blow (it will eventually, or it will leak) the mess is contained at a drain/sump/bucket.


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## Ryedale (Nov 3, 2011)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> If I understand correctly, your boiler goes to an in tank HX to heat the storage.  If so, the smallish expansion tank will probably work.  You may want to plumb an unrestricted drain to the pop valve (Temperature/Pressure Relief valve) so when it DOES blow (it will eventually, or it will leak) the mess is contained at a drain/sump/bucket.



Good Idea, and I was planning on it, just got excited to make the first fire.


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## stee6043 (Nov 3, 2011)

Amazing install.  I feel poorer just thinking about all the cool tricks you have on your rig.  Absolutely awesome.

Once you have a few fires under your belt you should tackle that orange flame.  Make her scream BLUE!  You'll be amazed at how much more heat you can force out of that boiler with a little tweaking on your primaries and secondaries...and lowering your fan speed...and closing off the shutter.


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## Ryedale (Nov 3, 2011)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> Amazing install.  I feel poorer just thinking about all the cool tricks you have on your rig.  Absolutely awesome.
> 
> Once you have a few fires under your belt you should tackle that orange flame.  Make her scream BLUE!  You'll be amazed at how much more heat you can force out of that boiler with a little tweaking on your primaries and secondaries...and lowering your fan speed...and closing off the shutter.



certainly not meant to make you feel bad,  this is my "hot rod" you might say, and Im fortunate to work in an environment where I get many tips from professional pipe fitters, and see examples daily of systems that would make this look laughable in the pharmaceutical industry.  I'm an industrial refrigeration mechanic (Journeyman) by trade but work mostly now with pipe fitters, electricians and insulators on about 3 or 4 hundred miles of outdoor piping here in Kalamazoo. It's an amazing site.   I've acquired many of my extras from a friend who sells new old stock HVAC parts which has kept the prices lower than full supply house.  Many parts are from Ebay too.  
I really don't dare add things up 1$,$$$.00  I'm afraid too  lol.   Definitely a labor of love. 

For the air adjustments...
I'm planning on a system where i can turn a T-Handle outside the air plenum one left one right, to make adjustments to my primary air.  I'll have to spot weld a couple "guides" on the air gates.  I'm searching for some Metric Threaded Rod right now, so that one turn equals 1MM.  I'll post some pics if it works.  A fine thread 6MM bolt is a 1MM Pitch I think. Could just use a bolt where I drill and tap the flange of steel (not the water jacket lol) around the green air box, but behind the green sheet metal and rope packing. 
The Secondary air is already accessable but still a little bit low tech it seems.  
I played with my fan speed, and it seems to want to run at 50% or higher, cant seem to slow it down below that.  Plus, it seems that the fan is turning much faster than 50 percent of it's full speed at 100%.  Static pressure will be the best thing to monitor in the air plenum.


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## Hydronics (Nov 4, 2011)

Very nice work, you may want to thread the exp. Tank into the bottom of your airscoop. With it mounted sideways the top half could get filled with air.


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## Stlshrk (Nov 6, 2011)

Very nice looking set-up you have there!  As echoed in some of the other poster's comments, it is a drool worthy system.  

Well, I'm going to go out to my dirt floor wood/boiler shed to fire up my EKO 40. ;-)

Again, very nice work.


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## Briquetmaker (Nov 7, 2011)

That is some very nice craftsmanship, I live for that perfection stuff. I admire your attention to detail and wish I lived closer, I would have come by to lend a hand. Your welder is awesome.


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## Ryedale (Nov 16, 2011)

OK.... I blew a couple days improving the Primary Air gate under the plenum area.  I can now adjust it by turning a screw outside the case.  

Two upgrades were made, one on the weak flange that the "sheet metal screws" that pinch the 20ga metal against the glass gasket.  The other was to make external reliable control of the primary air.  

I will post some pics of the new bolted flange arrangement which now has a welded back up ring and 1/8 inch angle iron as the landing area for this, and welded 1/4 20 bolts.  

I really am horrible at making welds look good, and I found too that with the thin metals it was even harder to keep it looking halfway decent.  
I got a TIG welder a couple years ago and have done some work with it, and I'm getting better, but probably would have done better with a wire or stick welder on these.  I dont have the wire, and didn't have the electrode holder yet for my TIG, so I just did my best...... The grinder is my best friend.  

Anyway you can see the arrangement I made.  Basicly got some 18GA carbon steel sheet, and tossed the factory "Galvanized" slides.  The new ones are touching on the top where the metal turns back outward, and this allows them to "ride" the metal so I only needed the one bolt.  
I used a spring washer sandwiched between washer and the nut to provide tension, but not push so hard as to pinch the plate.  

I used angle iron for my bracket, and some 1/4 steel to make my nut for the 6MM x 60 MM bolt that goes out through the steel to gain access outside.   

the springs provide "return" or OPENING pressure, where the screw pulls the gates shut, all the way


The pitch of a 6mm bolt is 1mm, so for every one complete turn, you move the gate one MM.   The springs remove all "Lash" so the gate is "moving" if you are turning the bolt, never any deadband or stop points. 

I have used the boiler once to test, and it is very interesting how just one turn changes the static pressure of the air box quite a bit.  4 and 5 turns....dramatically change the air flows.  I'm using a Magnehelic Pressure Guage to monitor the changes as they occour. This is similar to a gauge that a service tech would use to change over a Natural Gas system to an LP  system to properly set the gas pressure. Keep in mind though that the pressures are very low.   With full fan pressure and a pretty good blue gassification flame, I'm seeing about .08 to .09 IWC (inches water column) on the magnehelic.  
I will keep some better notes as I go and report back, possibly in the Fine Tuning EKO area. 












EXTERNAL ACTIVATION SCREW TURNED WITH A 5MM HEX KEY


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## Gasifier (Nov 16, 2011)

You da man! (That means I am envious of your abilities.  :lol: ) NICE WORK DUDE! Thanks for sharing your project with us. And keep us posted along the way as the winter progresses.


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## Fred61 (Nov 16, 2011)

Good work on the flange arrangement. Something I wanted to change on mine from the start on mine but a simple fix did not come to mind. I just used some high temperature putty (Babbitrite) on the joint to prevent leaks. The thing that I was concerned about with the original fastening set up was distortion of the plate, causing the little flapper door to hang up.
I also wanted to be able to make air adjustments without removing the plate but put it off. Now, after running for three years and with my wood being quite consistent, I don't feel the effort will be worth it for me since it has been working very well and I haven't felt a need to adjust the air.
Tying them together with springs was a good idea. I guess the only thing I would want to add to it if it were mine would be an indicator that tells me where they are set.


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## Ryedale (Nov 18, 2011)

More pics of my "back up flange" and where I picked up my Air pressure reading, and associated Magnehelic gauges.
















Top gauge is for the chimney draft and reads higher (to the right) as the draft increases. 
Bottom one is for the plenum air pressure pushing on the primary air sliders, and secondary air throttle plates. Would not need to be a combination (vac and pressure) gauge, but it had the right sensitivity range so thats what I bought. I'll probably switch them around, as the pressure fan will almost always show positive, and the chimney draft could be neutral or in vac.


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