# Pictures Black Bear and Wood Tank Fram



## Grover59 (Dec 10, 2007)

I will try my hand at posting some pictures they are not that good but you can see my messy basement. Does anyone think this tank frame will hold water?


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## Nofossil (Dec 10, 2007)

I'd wrap aircraft cable around the tank, spacing it out more in the center of each side to approximate a circle, then tighten the snot out of it with turnbuckles. I assume plywood and EPDM on the inside?

I haven't seen pictures of 'known good' wooden tank designs. Any out there?


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## Grover59 (Dec 10, 2007)

Yes you are absolutely right water likes round and will seek its own level, I have done a lot of research and have found that this type of tank is very common. I did it this way because of cost and it will fit where I need it. I have a lot of screws and lag bolts in it and I was told to put the 2x8 on end all around it for added support, much like when building forms for cement. I have seen plans for another tank built with wood my design is big time over kill compared those plans, and that tank had an 2 8 foot long walls.


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## Grover59 (Dec 10, 2007)

nofossil said:
			
		

> I'd wrap aircraft cable around the tank, spacing it out more in the center of each side to approximate a circle, then tighten the snot out of it with turnbuckles. I assume plywood and EPDM on the inside?
> 
> I haven't seen pictures of 'known good' wooden tank designs. Any out there?



Yes it will be 3/4" plywood and EPDM liner.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 10, 2007)

The tank looks good to me, but I'm not an engineer like some of these guys. I'm more interested in those blue flames in the bottom chamber of that BBB. What point are you at in the cycle?


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## Grover59 (Dec 10, 2007)

When I took the picture the blower had just started about 10 minutes before, the wood in there now has been there for awhile so all of the quick burn stuff is gone and I see the blue flame. When I first stoke this up I will get a big orange blue flame for awhile untill all of the easy stuff is burned. 

Steve


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## Nofossil (Dec 10, 2007)

I'll play engineer for a minute. If I remember correctly, water pressure is about 1/2psi per foot of depth. At 4 feet, that's 2 psi, or about 300 pounds per square foot pushing outwards on your plywood. That's why I suggest the aircraft cable, and I won't swear that's enough. If your sides are 4 feet high and 6 feet long, that's about 3500 pounds trying to push each side panel outwards. Think about the possibility and consequences of catastrophic failure, and plan accordingly.

I started out with a plan along these lines, and I finally opted for an external stainless tank that I got from a junkyard. The tank was cheaper, but I had to build an enclosure for it.


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## Grover59 (Dec 10, 2007)

nofossil said:
			
		

> I'll play engineer for a minute. If I remember correctly, water pressure is about 1/2psi per foot of depth. At 4 feet, that's 2 psi, or about 300 pounds per square foot pushing outwards on your plywood. That's why I suggest the aircraft cable, and I won't swear that's enough. If your sides are 4 feet high and 6 feet long, that's about 3500 pounds trying to push each side panel outwards. Think about the possibility and consequences of catastrophic failure, and plan accordingly.
> 
> I started out with a plan along these lines, and I finally opted for an external stainless tank that I got from a junkyard. The tank was cheaper, but I had to build an enclosure for it.



Yes you are right that is about what the pressure would be, I belive it would be even more at the bottom of the tank. If I have to I could support the bottom and the top again with steel I have room to still get around the tank. Now the back walls of the tank are against the foundation walls so I may be ok there, I am more concerned about the other walls.

Steve


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## Nofossil (Dec 10, 2007)

I see the 2x8 braces that you have on edge. The real need is near the bottom much more than at the middle.

As someone mentioned earlier, water likes to be round. That's why virtually all above-ground pools are round. Any other shape requires much bracing. Since what you're doing is essentially an above-ground pool, perhaps you could get an idea of the amount of bracing required by looking at a rectangular above-ground pool. I think a company named Gibraltar makes them. The deck is part of the structure that's required to keep the sides straight. Steal shamelessly from their design.

Can you tie the bottom plates together across the bottom of the tank? That would be absolutely critical. I'm thinking urethane glue, gussets, plywood, oak, steel, and anything else that can help ensure that the bottom edges can't flex outwards.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't know. I have a square concrete tank that has yet to see any water, so I'm just guessing, hoping and praying--all without the benefit of any engineering background or religious affiliation. However, my tank is a modified 2,500-gallon reinforced concrete cistern in my basement that I know held 2,500 gallons of water in the past. And when I say "reinforced concrete," I'm talking about old scrap iron, steel pipe and wood scraps, not a pattern of rebar. I know this because somebody knocked part of the wall out to get access to the space, so I can see what it's made of. I just blocked off one end with a cinderblock wall. So I've got a proven 6-inch poured concrete walls on 3 sides (independent of the foundation, by the way), and an insulated cinderblock wall faced with surface bonding cement making up the fourth side. I also plan to jack up the floor slightly and basically put the weight of the house on the new section of wall. I also have the option of bracing the wall against the foundation, which is about 6 feet away, but only if I see cracks starting to develop in the surface bonding cement once she starts to fill with water. The inside is lined with 2 inches of foam and lined with an EPDM pond liner. Here's a random pic, for what it's worth.


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## Grover59 (Dec 10, 2007)

I could add another set of 2X8's at the bottom to stiffin that up, the bottom is bolted and screwed to 2 sheets of plywood that are screwed together with many screws.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 10, 2007)

I said it last year. First person I ever heard of that is intentionally putting a thousand gallons of water in his basement. Seen it in a basement once, but it wasn't on purpose.


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## Grover59 (Dec 10, 2007)

nofossil said:
			
		

> I see the 2x8 braces that you have on edge. The real need is near the bottom much more than at the middle.
> 
> As someone mentioned earlier, water likes to be round. That's why virtually all above-ground pools are round. Any other shape requires much bracing. Since what you're doing is essentially an above-ground pool, perhaps you could get an idea of the amount of bracing required by looking at a rectangular above-ground pool. I think a company named Gibraltar makes them. The deck is part of the structure that's required to keep the sides straight. Steal shamelessly from their design.
> 
> Can you tie the bottom plates together across the bottom of the tank? That would be absolutely critical. I'm thinking urethane glue, gussets, plywood, oak, steel, and anything else that can help ensure that the bottom edges can't flex outwards.



I take your advece and  put another set of 2X8's on the bottom, I knew this is where most of the load will be but thought in the middle was fine. So to be safe I wll add them, I will probably have to slde what have there now down and then add another set in the middle. 

Thanks,STeve


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## verne (Dec 10, 2007)

just as you said , concrete form , build it like one . pressure comes from height . so the shorter the side walls the better. typically ,the whallers are spaced twice as close at the bottom.  also lace the corners and leave them long enough to add 2 vertical strongbacks at each corner.


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## Grover59 (Dec 10, 2007)

I am going to get that done tonight when I get home, how close to the bottom do you think the whallers should go?

Steve


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## verne (Dec 10, 2007)

i would start at 12" or under .  The verticalls at the corners are nailed double to each whaler both sides to stop the laceing or corners from opening. nails are stronger for shear strength also if you can tap -con the bottom plates to concreat slab


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Dec 10, 2007)

Guys, it's a lot of weight, but it's not _that_ much.  0.433 psi per foot of depth.  Under two tons on a 4x8 sheet of plywood.

My garage is an old barn with wood plank floors (over a full basement).  This is old wood, not in the greatest condition (due to moisture from dirt floor in said basement), and the last owner had a Suburban, with it's entire weight split up on a few square inches under the tires.

This looks like a workable design: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolarShed/Tank/Tank.htm

The recommendations of some cross-bracing are pretty good.  I'm thinking of building that sort of tank, and using threaded rod.  That way, I can fit the cover, then tighten the rods to "squeeze" the cover a bit, making a better seal.

Joe


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## Nofossil (Dec 10, 2007)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> Guys, it's a lot of weight, but it's not _that_ much.  0.433 psi per foot of depth.  Under two tons on a 4x8 sheet of plywood.



I'm not worried about the floor at all. That same force is pressing outwards on the sides - none at the top, but 250 pounds per square foot sideways at the bottom. I'm imagining the tank suspended sideways, with a car parked on the inside of a side panel. That's the force I'm worried about. In particular, bowing out the sides or pulling the corners apart. Usually, we design wood structures to be loaded in compression. This is loaded in tension. I'm too lazy to do the hoop stress calculations, and I don't want to give advice without some confidence that the results are safe and satisfactory.

I'm hoping someone has a time-tested example.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Dec 10, 2007)

nofossil said:
			
		

> I'm not worried about the floor at all. That same force is pressing outwards on the sides - none at the top, but 250 pounds per square foot sideways at the bottom. I'm imagining the tank suspended sideways, with a car parked on the inside of a side panel. That's the force I'm worried about. In particular, bowing out the sides or pulling the corners apart. Usually, we design wood structures to be loaded in compression. This is loaded in tension. I'm too lazy to do the hoop stress calculations, and I don't want to give advice without some confidence that the results are safe and satisfactory.
> 
> I'm hoping someone has a time-tested example.



Sorry I didn't specify - the number I gave was for the sides.  The pressure downward is 1.732 psi - four tons on a 4x8 sheet of plywood.

That sideways car analogy is good.  Think of a floor.  Make a 4x8 floor, and park a car on it.  What size framing do you need?

The 250psf number exists at the very bottom, but diminishes rapidly as you climb the wall, to zero at the top.

The real loading is going to be the tension that the floor is under, as the bottom tries to spread.  I think that decent plywood should take a lot of tension loading.  I'd probably use 4x4's for the bottom frame, just so the plywood sides aren't sitting against the narrow edge of a 2x4.

Joe


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## Nofossil (Dec 10, 2007)

We're all on the same page. I want to see pictures when it's full of water.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 10, 2007)

The basement or the tank?


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## Nofossil (Dec 11, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> The basement or the tank?



C'mon - I was trying to be nice!

Sometimes, we learn as much from failures as successes. I do try and share the things I've done that didn't work, even when they're pretty boneheaded in retrospect.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 11, 2007)

For the record, I was referring to my tank and my basement, not Maine's. Looks to me like he's getting some good advice and appears to know what he's doing.


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## Grover59 (Dec 11, 2007)

I have purchased the 2X8 for the second set of whallers on the bottom, the plywood bottom of this tank is 2 sheets of 3/4 " plywood laminated together. Then there is 2 2x4's laying flat and screwed together, they also overlap at the corners. At the corners everything is overlapped and screwed and lag bolted together. I do beleive that the extra whallers on the bottom is a good idea for the cost it is a no brainer. I have talked to a couple of talk show guys up here in Maine, Prof. Dick Hill and Tom Gosie not sure if I spelled that right, they eat drink and poop this stuff and have built many of these wooden tanks. They basically said the same thing, water wants to be round, and they suggested the whaller to help this problem. Here is a link to a tank that was constructed it is only 3 feet high and this makes a difference for sure, but I tried to build mine much stronger then this one.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolarShed/Tank/Tank.htm

STeve


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## SteveJ (Dec 11, 2007)

Steve,

I, too, am doing the rectangular 4x8 storage tank based on the link you referenced.

I have 2 layers of framing with corners reinforced with the simpson steel Ls as shown in the picture.

On the bottom and top I bolted two steel straps side to side 3' from either end.

I just used a weak sheathing bottom but am using 3/4" plywood at the sided and end.

The tank will set on a concrete floor so I am not too concerned with the bottom.

I have the steel corners at the bottom, middle and top (yet to be completed).

EPDM 0.45mil liner with 2" foam board between the liner and the 3/4" plywood.

Hope it holds - let me know when you fill and I will do the same,
Steve


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## Grover59 (Dec 11, 2007)

Yes this looks good to me, I too could add the steel corner braces, my tank is 6'X6X4' high, I am going to put steel straps across the top at the center both ways to help in any spreading at that point. I have bolted most of the points that I think could use it, before I add the insulation I will probably and more lag bolts to the floor on the edges. I have already got my EPDM liner, it is 15X15 and I also got a 10X10 for the top. I purchase the liner here http://www.webbsonline.com/catalog/liner/index.html I thought they were reasonalbe and I got my liners fast, I did not have to buy a whole roll of EPDM roofing.

Steve


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## Tony H (Dec 11, 2007)

You have a strong frame and so if water wants to be round why not oblige ? Add a few additional studs inside each corner to round the inside of the frame and then use four sections of sheet steel 4' to 5' long attached to the straight sections of the plywood sides and then your liner over it all. 
What do you think?


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Dec 11, 2007)

If you're a good woodworker, I supposed you could build a big barrel... http://snorkel.com/hot-tub-products/wood-fired-hot-tubs.php

Joe


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 11, 2007)

I think Tony H is on to something.


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## Grover59 (Dec 11, 2007)

That is really not a bad idea, it would reduce the amount your tank will hold or you would have to adjust for it. In my case I may not have enough room, I was going to go with the 4x8x4 tank size at first but I did not have the room. 

Steve


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## verne (Dec 11, 2007)

you can build a round form by cutting radius whalers from plywood. then use 2-3 layers of thin plywood . used the same princaple many times building concrete forms for hydro electric project and many others.the plywood dosnt have to bend all the way around if radius is small ,just overlap the next layer.


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## sparke (Jan 5, 2008)

Any results on this project?


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## Grover59 (Jan 6, 2008)

I have been slightly busy lately but I have been moving forward, I will be putting the liner in hopefully this weekend and by next week have it all going. 

I am waiting for a circ pump to arrive from ebay, here are a couple of pictures of my mess so far.

Steve


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## sparke (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks for the update.  I live in Central part of State as well.  Would you mind showing me your project,  hell I'll help ya with it...


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 6, 2008)

Looks really good, Maine.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 6, 2008)

I love when a plan comes together.  What do you think spend in time and money on this one?

Please keep posting updates.


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## Grover59 (Jan 7, 2008)

sparke said:
			
		

> Thanks for the update.  I live in Central part of State as well.  Would you mind showing me your project,  hell I'll help ya with it...



Where do you live? you can take a look anytime. I am in East Millinocket. 

Steve


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## Grover59 (Jan 7, 2008)

ABGWD4U said:
			
		

> I love when a plan comes together.  What do you think spend in time and money on this one?
> 
> Please keep posting updates.



I would say I have about $800.00 in the tank and that will be including the top that I have got the materials for yet. I spent two Sundays on it and week nights off and on I would say I have about 30 good hours in it so far. I did spend a lot of time just figuring how I would do it. I still have to get the liner in and make the top, still thinking on how I want to get the plumbing in. I have been waiting for some carpet foam to put around the edges of the tank to protect the liner when I pull it over the top, this will also give me a cushioned surface for the top to rest on and hopefully seal better. I am also waiting for a circ pump hopefully will arive next week, I will also need another pump soon probably will order it next week. For now I will be using a water to air heat exchanger to heat the upstairs from the tank, I got most of that ready today, not sure how well that is going to work but it is all temporary untill I get the radiant floor heat in.

Everything that I am doing is an after thought so to speak and one system does not affect any other, this fall I replaced all of the pex pipe tieing the wood boiler to the oil boiler with copper, and at the same time put a flat plate heat exchanger in that same loop. Now I can tie in the tank with a seperate loop and never have to shut anything down. I will also have a seperate loop for the water to air heat exchanger that can be tied in without to much trouble and no impact to the rest of the working system. As far as heating DMW at this time I am circulating through the existing tankless coil on the oil fired boiler to an electric hot water heater with the coil unhooked, this works very well and gives us unlimited DHW. For now thlis is how I will leave the DHW, because I will be starting a fire probably every day this should not be a problem for now. 

Now I can't wait to see how well the boiler will bring the tank up to temp, and see how well the plumbing will keep the boiler from going idle . Also not sure how well my Micky Mouse water to air heat exchanger system will work, considering it is a modine heater all torn apart. 

This will be fun, 

Steve


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## sparke (Jan 7, 2008)

Good Ole Yankee Ingenuity. I like it! Unfortunately I am Winslow a few hours from you. I consider this Central Maine and you Northern!!  

Let us know how it all works out.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 7, 2008)

It's a long drive up to Fort Kent from East Millinocket. I guess it's a matter of perspective.


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## Grover59 (Jan 15, 2008)

I did get the liner in and it aint pretty, what a pain in the butt, I did it by myself and it took awhile, here is a picture of the mess. I will be making the top by this weekend and lining that with EPDM also, hopefully I will have the plumbing all in by next weekend and get to fill it up and test it out. If this works as planned it will make my life a little easier. 

Steve


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## wsurfer49 (Jan 15, 2008)

I Can't wait to hear your response after you get the tank online.  I am at the beginning stages, looking at furnaces and then the system to put this all together.  I have an 80 gallon dhw tank with solar collector and it has a closed loop from the collectors to a water jacket around the tank and I will probably just start with that for storage.  I am thinking of building a 10x10 or 10x 15 tank in the crawlspace under the house.  It will be something of a pain but getting that much storage and having the heat loss inside makes me think it might be worth it.  I am thinking of concrete block over slab with surface bonding but will also have to consider a wood frame such as yours.  I am thinking of only 2 ft height and would still have to do some digging.  What fun all the plans and then to get to play with the toys.  Too bad I cannot get my backhoe in there!

Also would like to see pics of finished project and any afterthoughts you may have.

Rob


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## greenmtnman (Jan 16, 2008)

I have a question about this tank. Why have corners and bolts and nails near a liner that could get torn?
Looks great hope it works! Here is an idea not sure if it would help with your project but may give others an idea. 
I lived in the Philippines for a few years on n off for different reasons. I help out with two other ex-pats to build a water tank near a school that had no water tap near by. The tank would only get water from rain gutters. Now this was far in the bush and it did worked. We build this in a way that was called fero cement. I believe that's the name? Instead of using re-bar or any metal, we used bamboo and weave into shape of a big round ball after making it into flat strips. This was many years ago and I believe it was 10 maybe 12 ft high and round. I'm not sure of the size.
We did use cement with chop dry grass rice husks.
So why not try building the same tank round? This would not have any corners to have pressure on. My idea is to build it from chicken wire two layers perhaps 1" to 3" space apart to hold the cement. After adding the cement slowly between the wire you then you would need to smooth the inside and not even use a liner.
Just an idea to put out there maybe one of you could take this and get even a better idea.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 16, 2008)

Make sure the kids and wife are upstairs when you fill the tank! Maybe you should wear a flotation device too? :lol: 

But seriously, hope it works.


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## greenmtnman (Jan 16, 2008)

Don't think you will have a problem with what your building.
I was just giving an idea


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## Grover59 (Jan 17, 2008)

greenmtnman said:
			
		

> I have a question about this tank. Why have corners and bolts and nails near a liner that could get torn?
> Looks great hope it works! Here is an idea not sure if it would help with your project but may give others an idea.
> I lived in the Philippines for a few years on n off for different reasons. I help out with two other ex-pats to build a water tank near a school that had no water tap near by. The tank would only get water from rain gutters. Now this was far in the bush and it did worked. We build this in a way that was called fero cement. I believe that's the name? Instead of using re-bar or any metal, we used bamboo and weave into shape of a big round ball after making it into flat strips. This was many years ago and I believe it was 10 maybe 12 ft high and round. I'm not sure of the size.
> We did use cement with chop dry grass rice husks.
> ...



When I decided to biuld this tank I did do a lot of research, and found that this type of tank is very common for exactly what I want it for, to store heat. It is common  mostly for solar systems back in the 80's. The reason it is square is that I can put it where it will fit and it was easy for me to make it this way. As far as the liner getting torn, it is very rugged stuff, it is sitting in the foam insulation there are no nails or screws exposed to it. As far as this tank failing well we will find out soon, however I did check with some people that have made these things before and they basically said I should not have a problem with the way it is constructed.
We will see soon. 

Steve


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## greenmtnman (Jan 17, 2008)

You did do your reshearch....I myself wasn't saying this wouldn't work
I just wanted to point out that another way may be possible too. And giving the idea that helps others to come up with another idea. I have seen this tank made on other sites. 
I sure your beyond the jokes that have been posted. I sure they are all waiting to here that iits working....


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## Grover59 (Jan 17, 2008)

greenmtnman said:
			
		

> You did do your reshearch....I myself wasn't saying this wouldn't work
> I just wanted to point out that another way may be possible too. And giving the idea that helps others to come up with another idea. I have seen this tank made on other sites.
> I sure your beyond the jokes that have been posted. I sure they are all waiting to here that iits working....



Yes beyond the jokes, I will be making another tank in another house probable this coming summer this tank I am going to make round and  not out of wood, much like the type that Tarm USA sells with there boilers. On this forum someone has posted doing just that and it turned out well, and at much less cost then what you pay for the Tarm tank. I do think that doing the round tank is a much better solution, you can tear them down quite easy and move it if you have to, the one I made with wood is not going anywhere. Again I wanted to get this thing up and running as soon as I could and the wood tank seem to do that for me.

Steve


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## greenmtnman (Jan 17, 2008)

Do you have any idea when you'll be taping into the water supply?
I'm not familiar with Tarm USA sells.
What will your materials be to make this round tank?


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## Grover59 (Jan 21, 2008)

Well it's still not pretty but I have the top done and it is full of water, and it seems to be holding for now. Hopefully in the next day or two I will have the plumbing done so I can start heating the water. I will be covering the rest of this mess with something so it looks a little better, but I am not much on how things look just how they work .  The first picture should be of the top before I got it on, the second picture is the tank with about 2/3rds of the water in it, can't see it very well.

Steve


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## Grover59 (Jan 21, 2008)

Here is a picture of the whole mess together and it is full of water now.

Steve


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## Grover59 (Jan 21, 2008)

Ok I am in the picture mode, here are a couple of pictures of the smoke I sometimes see coming out of my chimney.

Steve


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## tuolumne (Jan 21, 2008)

I think everyone got too excited about the tank structure.  Coming from a structural background, concrete is a more familiar subject.  It's nearly 3 times heavier than water, and can really likes to push out when you drop a vibrator in it.  The water in maine's tank is just sitting there (until his kids start doing cannonballs).  For others building tanks like this, just concentrate on tying one side to the other across the bottom since water will exert an equal force in all directions.  With 300 psf at the bottom, running plumbers strap across the bottom every foot with a few nails on each side would do the job just fine.  To test this theory, nail a piece to joist and get a few chubby friends to hang on it.  Try with different number/type of nails, then weigh your friends.  That type of empirical approach beats the theoretical for most folks.  I assume the tank needs a top, so some 2x4's across the top could serve to support that end of our vertical beams.  Round tanks do the job so well because they take advantage of the tensile strength of a thin membrane.  However, the great molasses spill in the earlier part of this century proved that round tanks can fail too!


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## wsurfer49 (Jan 21, 2008)

Looks fine to me.  NO Leaks and holding together, that is the important thing.  As long as it performs as intended, it isn't in the front of your house and boy will that be nice when it is filled with hot water.

I am toying with the idea of concrete block tank in my crawl space, either lined or just surface bonding, filled of course and rebarred horizontally.  Any comments will be welcomed.  Rob


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 21, 2008)

The lid is the critical link, in my experience.  Lag it down to prevent the walls from spreading.  A clear vinyl tube is another nice feature to monitor water level.

 hr


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## greenmtnman (Jan 21, 2008)

Maine said:
			
		

> Well it's still not pretty but I have the top done and it is full of water, and it seems to be holding for now. Hopefully in the next day or two I will have the plumbing done so I can start heating the water. I will be covering the rest of this mess with something so it looks a little better, but I am not much on how things look just how they work .  The first picture should be of the top before I got it on, the second picture is the tank with about 2/3rds of the water in it, can't see it very well.
> 
> Steve



Great hows it doing today? 
DId you know that home depot sell an alarm for water leaks. could be a good idea. It just sits on the ground near the water heater and if it should stark to leak the alarm will sound off. 
Hoping you never hear the sound!


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## sparke (Feb 1, 2008)

Maine,  How is the tank working???


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## NP ALASKA (Feb 3, 2008)

I am  no engineer or even half educated on this. Can some one give me some information on an additinonal tank setup? I have a CB 6048 and it is heating two seperate structures. I want to add a heat sink storage tank to help even the speratic ups and downs of the CB as it cycles through burns.
I am thinking of adding a 500 to 1000 gallon tank right next to the CB. I have a recycled 500 gal tank for nothing. I thought of putting it half in the ground and insulating the thing until it looks like the Michelan Man. I think that the tank is lower than the mass in the CB and will gravity feed down. I am thinking of a small pump to push back up to the CB tank.

I have also considered a tank in each building, the problem is space. I think I can fit 250 in the house garage and 300 in the other out building(provided I can get it through the door)?? Thoughts?? 

Other considerations: I am in the interior of Alaska, temps are commonly 30 and 40 below zero hear. Coldest Dec-Feb. 

If I put a tank in the garage this is not much problem since the door is large. The other building the door is 32 inches wide?

Any thoughts would be great thanks.


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 3, 2008)

Welcome to the Boiler Room, NP. We have lots and lots of threads here about various hot water storage options and ideas for same. What you're talking about sounds reasonable to me, although I think you're the first OWB owners I'm aware of who is talking about hot water storage. It probably makes as much sense with an OWB (and maybe more) as it does with a gasifier or indoor wood-fired boiler. You might want to cut and past this post into a new thread, just to get a fresh start with your specific setup and ideas. I know you'll get plenty of useful suggestions and help.

Those are some cold temps you guys in Alaska always talk about. I've seen -40 and temps that don't get above zero for a week or more here in upstate New York, but IME, the sustained cold periods really start to wear you down after awhile. I guess you guys get acclimated, just like everyone else. I'm also trying to picture trying to stay warm in those temps with softwood, but again, you guys seem to have that figured out, too. 

Anyway, hats off to all our Alaskan members who heat with wood. Now that's dedication in my book.


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## NP ALASKA (Feb 3, 2008)

Thanks I will


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## Grover59 (Feb 6, 2008)

I have been a little busy lately, I do have the tank working and it is working fine I have got the temp. up to 175 and I can keep the boiler running no problem with the hx that I have. The dip tube set up is working quite well however there is only some stratification in the tank. As I said in other post I was going to use a water to air hx to heat the house with the tank, so that I can get more out of the tank, this is working but the radiant floor heat is my goal. It is nice now that I don't have to build a fire to heat the house, I can just build it when I want. I have much more to do, and I will be posting some pictures of it as soon as clean up some of the mess and finish some wiring. Oh yes someone mentioned somewhere on this forum about using a timer to shut the boiler down after so many hours, well this is what I did, and it works well, I was looking for a timer that would work for this and really could not come up with anything. Then I remembered I had a coin timer that I was going to use for a wireless pay phone that would work perfect, so I now have to feed the timer quarters to get the boiler to go but it works very well and it has a minute display. As I said I am the king of micky mouse and this is one micky mouse way to GET ER Done. 

Steve


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm getting a funny visual of you scrambling around the house (and vehicles) looking for quarters to feed into your boiler's meter.

Sounds like the tank is working very well, Maine. And you're using a flat plate hx, right?


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## Grover59 (Feb 6, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> I'm getting a funny visual of you scrambling around the house (and vehicles) looking for quarters to feed into your boiler's meter.
> 
> Sounds like the tank is working very well, Maine. And you're using a flat plate hx, right?



Yes I am, it is large enough to take what ever the boiler is giving it. I don't have any fancy controls like on your boiler just a aquastat that I dial up to 190 deg if I need to. I also have an aquastat that starts the pump to the tank only when the temp in the boiler loop is up to 180 degrees. 

Steve


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## steam man (Feb 6, 2008)

I would suggest an ATM machine and a bill changer just to keep things going........................LOL

I'll stop by ASAP to attest to Maine's setup.


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## Grover59 (Feb 21, 2008)

Just a small update I have been out for awhile, the tank is well worth the effort and money, I can now just build a fire when I want to and I can coast all of the other time. It is not where I want it I am useing forced hot air and it really does not heat the whole house evenly the way I have it set up but it keeps the oil boiler off. As stated before I am going to install radiant floor heat when I can afford it and have time, next season, for now this will get me by. My control scheme is very simple, if the boiler is down or should I say the blower is not running then when the upstailrs thermostat calls for heat it starts the circulator to the modine heater all heat comes from that when the boiler is not running. However if the temputure on a second thermostat goes to low the oil boiler will start, which it has not done yet.

If I start a fire and set my coin timer to say three hours, and the boiler loop reaches say 170 this will allow the circulator to the baseboard to run at the same time as the circulator for the modine heater, so I get heat from both the blower and the baseboard in the whole house. Once the thermostat upstairs are satisfied the boiler loop reaches a temputure of 180 + the circulator for the tank starts and we start dumping heat to the storage tank. All I do is start the blower on the boiler and throw wood in I always have coals to start the  fire right up, and gasification is within 10 minutes.

I am using the dip tubes and no hx in the tank, the dip tubes work well no problem getting the pumps to prime at all. The tank does seem to heat evenly all around and has not gone lower then 148 .

I do have some pictures, they are not great but they will give you some idea. 

Steve


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## Grover59 (Feb 21, 2008)

More Pics,


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## Grover59 (Feb 21, 2008)

Here is the hx to the tank.


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 21, 2008)

Great. Sounds like the Black Bear works a lot better than the Adobe. Where is your pump in relation to the top of the tank, Maine? How are your diptubes situated in the tank? Do you reverse flow for storage vs. recovery, or does it get the job done pumping in one direction?

And I forget--what kind of hx are you using? A flat plate?


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## Grover59 (Nov 17, 2012)

It's been a long time since I posted to this forum, I have been busy living life, and trying to make a living. Yes I am still running my Black Bear Boiler and still using the same tank liner I put in back in 2007. I have had zero problems with the tank and boiler, however I have made a few modifications. I also am using the radiant floor I stapled up and it really works well, very comfortable heat. It has been three years since I have burned any oil, as a matter of fact my oil boiler has been on the blink for those three years, just got it going this week. I also have been running the Black Bear all summer to heat domestic hot water, with the tank I only need to light a fire once every two weeks for just the two of us. So far the only thing that I have had to replace on the boiler is one center bottom brick, all the others are still fine. I am sure at some time in the near future I will have to replace others, but I am looking good for now.
     I just wanted to bump this up to let people know I haven't died, and I am still running everything pretty much the same. Next project is to generate electricity with the boiler, not really that hard to do..

Steve


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