# Chain saw accident



## colebrookman (Nov 27, 2009)

News from firefighter close calls .com
A GRIM REMINDER:
We rarely post information related to law officers losing their life, only because that isn't our mission-however, when we can relate-we do pass it on. In this case, an off-duty Bow (N.H.) P.O. was killed this week in a chain-saw accident at his Epsom (N.H.) home, leaving behind his wife and his 4-year-old daughter. This was passed on to us by a friend of his who is a FF and Secret List member. As he stated in his e-mail: "In short, he was using his chain saw when it kicked-back, causing his death-a reminder to all of us of the need for (protection) PPE, especially since we (Firefighters) use chainsaws often and complacency (for any of us) is a moments away. Our sincere condolences to the friends and family of Officer Nathan Taylor.
HERE is a video report:  http://www.wmur.com/video/21720131/index.html 
But for the grace of God go I.  May he rest in peace.  Be safe.
Ed


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## Slow1 (Nov 27, 2009)

So... trying to learn from this.  I couldn't get the video to load.  What PPE would have helped in this case?  Any specific lessons to be learned?


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## Dune (Nov 27, 2009)

Are kickbacks more likely with full chisel chain than safety chain?


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## rdust (Nov 27, 2009)

Slow1 said:
			
		

> So... trying to learn from this.  I couldn't get the video to load.  What PPE would have helped in this case?  Any specific lessons to be learned?



Chainsaw kicked back and caught him in the chest according to the video so I think a vest would have helped.


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## smokinj (Nov 27, 2009)

Dune said:
			
		

> Are kickbacks more likely with full chisel chain than safety chain?




yes,and the way it sounds it got him in the chest noway to know what happen? My guess is he was using it up above head level.


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## ROBERT F (Nov 27, 2009)

Dune said:
			
		

> Are kickbacks more likely with full chisel chain than safety chain?


   Yep, and larger diameter bar ends too.


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## rdust (Nov 27, 2009)

Dune said:
			
		

> Are kickbacks more likely with full chisel chain than safety chain?



The safety chain is less likely to kickback.  I think the key is to stay out of a situation that can cause a kick back.  I try not to pinch the bar by watching what the cut is doing, stay away from cutting with the tip, don't make cuts where the tip will cut into another log and always try to stand along side the cut and not behind it.


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## Mr. Kelly (Nov 27, 2009)

Boy, does that news suck.  To think of it... something that so many people do with regularity could be so catastrophic.

My heart and prayers go out to his family.  What loss.  His daughter's life will be never the same.  Sometimes the world is a cruel place.  Makes the need for us to feel the good in the world even stronger.


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## creeker (Nov 27, 2009)

Wow.  Sobering.  I've gotten so into the whole wood-burning frame of mind.  It's addictive.  The wood, the stove, cutting, splitting,
seasoning, burning.  It's a lifestyle.  Then you hear something like this.  Make you think to slow down.  Take it one step at at time.  Think about what's not worth doing as a shortcut or a convenience.  It can happen to any one of us.  Especially newbies (like me) who don't really have good mentors to kick us in the butt or laugh at us for doing stupid things.  I'm sorry for this guy and his family.  I'll think about him when I pull that cord, in the spirit of burning, and staying alive.


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## Bigg_Redd (Nov 27, 2009)

Slow1 said:
			
		

> So... trying to learn from this.  I couldn't get the video to load.  *What PPE would have helped in this case?  Any specific lessons to be learned?*



None.

And the lesson is watch the tip of your bar.


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## travelindog (Nov 27, 2009)

Not too long ago I purchased a Stihl 361. For $50 over the standard model, I was able to get the Q model which contains an additional chain brake. Brake activates when the right hand is released from the handle. Love this feature and would recommend it. I always watch the cut and the saw tip with no distraction, but this safety feature and ppe seem like good measures in case a mistake is made.


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## btuser (Nov 27, 2009)

Its big news around here, just 10 minutes from here.  I got the razzin' during Thanksgiving, all the women hen-pecking me about it.   I think I'm going to be getting a set of chaps for Chrismas.


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## savageactor7 (Nov 27, 2009)

hummm  I like that redundant trigger hand Q brake that travelindog ^^mentioned.

Also I'm thinking it had to be a small saw ...like a 16" or smaller to bite him in the chest like that. imo, and I don't claim to be a great thinker on saw safety either,  the longer saws are safer kick back wise. That observation is based only on my experience using 16,20,24" saws.

 We still have a 16" 041 Stihl  I got in 77 that runs real sweet but I'm less inclined to use it cause it doesn't have a chain brake unlike the 2 Huskeys. If the 24" didn't have a chain break I'd have no problem using that cause a kick back with that would way less likely lead to a catastrophic consequence like a 16" bar.


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## drewboy (Nov 27, 2009)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> hummm  I like that redundant trigger hand Q brake that travelindog ^^mentioned.
> 
> Also I'm thinking it had to be a small saw ...like a 16" or smaller to bite him in the chest like that. imo, and I don't claim to be a great thinker on saw safety either,  the longer saws are safer kick back wise. That observation is based only on my experience using 16,20,24" saws.
> 
> We still have a 16" 041 Stihl  I got in 77 that runs real sweet but I'm less inclined to use it cause it doesn't have a chain brake unlike the 2 Huskeys. If the 24" didn't have a chain break I'd have no problem using that cause a kick back with that would way less likely lead to a catastrophic consequence like a 16" bar.



Savageactor7 - I'm just curious as to why a smaller saw has more of a chance of a kickback. Is it because it's lighter or that the tip of the blade is more likely to get pinched?

Rob


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## Ken45 (Nov 27, 2009)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> hummm  I like that redundant trigger hand Q brake that travelindog ^^mentioned.
> 
> Also I'm thinking it had to be a small saw ...like a 16" or smaller to bite him in the chest like that. imo, and I don't claim to be a great thinker on saw safety either,  the longer saws are safer kick back wise. That observation is based only on my experience using 16,20,24" saws.
> 
> We still have a 16" 041 Stihl  I got in 77 that runs real sweet but I'm less inclined to use it cause it doesn't have a chain brake unlike the 2 Huskeys. If the 24" didn't have a chain break I'd have no problem using that cause a kick back with that would way less likely lead to a catastrophic consequence like a 16" bar.



My feeling is the opposite, small, less powerful saws are less likely to seriously kick back.  When they do kick back, it's easily controllable with your hands.  The big ones have more power to overcome you.   Of course chain saws are plain dangerous and one needs to stay alert.

I agree with you about the old saws.  I have a couple of powerful 1970's saws (a Farmboss 041 and a Homelight XL) that only get brought out for big trees.  They don't have chain brakes and they keep spinning when the throttle is released.   (I wonder if I could get a decent trade in for the pair towards a modern equivalent saw?)

I feel my Stihl MS-170 (14") is easy to handle for limbing and small stuff,  with the Husky (18") being more powerful but still reasonably safe.

Remember, a big saw will tire you out and *when you are tired you are more likely to get careless.*


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## btuser (Nov 27, 2009)

We don't know what kind of saw he was using.  My dad gave me his chainsaw, an old 15 lb homelite that must be over 40 years old by now.  Good saw, but trying to guess at which chains to use and the lack of any features (auto-oiler, chain brake, vibration reduction, ect) made it  an easy choice for retirement.

If I were to guess, I'd say he was cutting across his body and the saw kicked back and hit him in the neck.   Maybe his legs got twisted up and he fell, something that could have happened to me a couple dozen times.   Maybe on the shoulder?  

I'm going to be even more carefull.


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## colebrookman (Nov 27, 2009)

Slow1 said:
			
		

> So... trying to learn from this.  I couldn't get the video to load.  What PPE would have helped in this case?  Any specific lessons to be learned?


Thanks mods.
My take away point is to just slow down and listen to my inner voice when it tells me I'm cutting corners.  Over 40,000 people are injured in chainsaw accidents yearly.  It's not until you read about a real person and how easily it could have been me.  The time when my inner voice said that I should be wearing chaps or when I put my foot on the log to steady the cut knowing that it was dangerous.  But I was in a hurry, it was faster, easier and it won't happen to me. I was lucky!  Reading about this young man forces me to reexamine my work habits.  To always wear PPE, take precautions, not to be afraid but to have a healthy respect for chainsaws.  There are thousands of ways to get hurt using chainsaws and unfortunately we get a grim reminder when something like this happens.  Be safe.
Ed


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## savageactor7 (Nov 27, 2009)

*I’m just curious as to why a smaller saw has more of a chance of a kickback. Is it because it’s lighter or that the tip of the blade is more likely to get pinched?*

Everything we do in life has a certain amount of risk to it. The carefully minded will spend the time to look over a situation, identify safety concerns/risk, calculate there worst case outcomes and implement some kind of control measure to reduce the risk factor.

I believe I said a smaller saw has a more chance of a catastrophic consequence for its operator and that is because the shorter bar will more likely come back back and make skin contact than a longer bar. I've have kickbacks in all sized bars but the longer bars are farther always from you so they are more inclined to avoid you. 

As far as shorter bars having more kickbacks than longer bars...i dunno for sure. Our concern should be the kickbacks that can reach back and make contact. So considering that imo longer is better as far as my personal experience goes.


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## colebrookman (Nov 27, 2009)

More info at www.oregonchain.com/kickback.htm  Be safe
Ed


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## Dune (Nov 27, 2009)

Thanks for the kickback info. Every time someone posts about the glories of full chisel chain, I ask if there are extra safety concerns with it. This is the first time I have gotten realistic answers. I have over 30 years of accident free chain saw experience, and wonder if that would still be the case if it were not for safety chain.

What is up with the spammers?


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## smokinj (Nov 27, 2009)

this guy took in the chest there's more to it other than what chain he was using. My best guess is working on limbs over his head,chest wound is very rare.


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## AlexNY (Nov 27, 2009)

Slow1 said:
			
		

> So... trying to learn from this.  I couldn't get the video to load.  What PPE would have helped in this case?  Any specific lessons to be learned?



Unfortunately, the video is useless, the usual melodramatic drivel that passes for news these days.

There were no details of what happend, pictures of the site, or even a general description of the setup (such as if he was on the ground or suspended).  The news did say that the accident involved a kickback and chest injury.

Trying to sell copy with pictures of kids left behind, etc.  Not much else.


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## creeker (Nov 27, 2009)

I'm letting you know that the old Stihl 041 farmboss I just bought about month ago as a first chainsaw is going up for sale again.  No chain brake, too heavy, and I think I need to slow down.   My neighbor and I have been sharing his chainsaw for quite a while, which is a good bit lighter, with chain brake, well made (Stihl) and has served us both well.  I'll look around.  If I can't afford the safety equipment, it's not worth owning the saw.  Thanks for the reality check.


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## Dune (Nov 28, 2009)

Yeah, this has me wondering about my 30 year old Jonsered. Still cuts well but...


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## btuser (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm still thinking it was the neck.  Cutting above his head and across.  He got to the phone, so I don't think it was the throat or diaphram, and the rib cage is a pretty good protector.   OK DONE THINKING ABOUTr THAT!!


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## Monkey Wrench (Nov 28, 2009)

creeker said:
			
		

> I'm letting you know that the old Stihl 041 farmboss I just bought about month ago as a first chainsaw is going up for sale again.  No chain brake, too heavy, and I think I need to slow down.   My neighbor and I have been sharing his chainsaw for quite a while, which is a good bit lighter, with chain brake, well made (Stihl) and has served us both well.  I'll look around.  If I can't afford the safety equipment, it's not worth owning the saw.  Thanks for the reality check.



Send that dangerous 041 to me. And I'll see to it that it gets destroyed!
Glad I could help!


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## Cedrusdeodara (Nov 28, 2009)

There are a few good videos on Youtube about "chainsaw kickback".  Some really useless ones too, so use at your own risk.  I wear chaps, gloves, hardhat with shield and ear protection.  I never cut in line with my head, always offset.  I never ever use the end of the bar.  If my chain is loose or if it isn't sharp and I'm throwing dust instead of fine woodchips, I stop and sharpen the blade.  I try and pay attention to the lay of the log and figure out where the pressure/load is, and either cut from above or below to avoid pinching the blade.  

I actually know more people that were injured from log splitters than I do from chainsaws.  But that is another topic.  The whole process can be dangerous and everyone should always consider safety and the use of PPE.


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## Gooserider (Nov 28, 2009)

I would tend to say that the argument for smaller saws causing more accidents is probably a combination of things...  

1. The inexperienced user is more likely to have a small saw...

2. The big box stores that sell more of the little saws DON'T sell the gear to go with them - I've never seen ANY PPE in the chainsaw dept at HD, and their website doesn't list much - If as they tell you all the time on the PA, they care about safety, how come they don't sell the gear?

3. Little saws are lighter - so people are more likely to use them overhead or in other non-safe positions.

4. Little saws are easier to swing around, making them a lot more tempting for brush clearing and other high kickback likelihood uses, plus encouraging people to be careless when placing the saw bar.  A heavier saw encourages more deliberate movements just because it's harder...  I could (but don't) one-hand my Pull-on, no way could I one-hand my Dolmar...  Which saw are you more likely to climb a tree or go up a ladder with?

5. Little saws are like little dogs - they get no respect - yet every delivery guy I've talked to says the "Yappamatics" are MORE likely to latch onto your ankle, and their owners are far less likely to keep them under tight control...  Big saws with long bars are SCARY, so they get treated with more caution...

Bottom line - I think it's a safe bet that most accidents are caused by people doing "stupid chit" and little saws are more likely to be the saw of choice when being stupid...

As to the "safety chain" issue - I keep saying it's a bad name, as the only SAFE chain on a saw is the metal bead chain you will find on some kids toy saws...  Any chain can and WILL kick back under the right conditions, and any moving chain WILL do serious damage to you on contact...  But we get told how the "reduced kickback" chain is safer, will prevent us from having accidents, and yadada yada...  So consciously or not, we take more chances when using it...  IMHO while it is slightly less likely that a "safety chain" will kick back than a full chisel - even though ANY chain made today has at least some anti-kickback features built into it, and benefits from being run on todays narrower bars that also reduce kickback, the reduction in risk is not that great, and isn't worth enough to justify the loss in cutting performance...

Gooserider


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## Bigg_Redd (Nov 28, 2009)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> hummm  I like that redundant trigger hand Q brake that travelindog ^^mentioned.
> 
> Also I'm thinking it had to be a small saw ...like a 16" or smaller to bite him in the chest like that. imo, and I don't claim to be a great thinker on saw safety either,  the longer saws are safer kick back wise. That observation is based only on my experience using 16,20,24" saws.
> 
> *We still have a 16" 041 Stihl*  I got in 77 that runs real sweet but I'm less inclined to use it cause it doesn't have a chain brake unlike the 2 Huskeys. If the 24" didn't have a chain break I'd have no problem using that cause a kick back with that would way less likely lead to a catastrophic consequence like a 16" bar.



That 041 will easily run a 20"-24" bar, FWIW


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## Vande (Nov 29, 2009)

I saw this link earlier and posted it in another forum.  Was a real sad story.  Regardless, some people are not designed to run equipment.  I have been in construction since 1982, in one form or another.  From the Structural steel workers union in NY, to Wooden boats in Australia, to my own co. in NH.  When I worked with some people you just could tell that they had no idea of the dymanics and physics at work with cutting, either, steel, wood, or timber.  Not saying I know the circumstances of the above situation, but HD, and other big box stores do not care who they sell to.  If you were on my job, we would all know whether you could handle the equipment or not, and we made the appropriate changes.  The sales people at the stores have no idea the capabilities of the consumer, they empower the consumer, and the consumer walks away with a chain saw, skill saw, tile saw, etc. and the Consumer feels like they have some sort of skills they did not have before they walked into the store.  this poor individual had a untimely accident, and we will not know the circumstances,  but we will know what our own skills are and what our own level should be.  Personally since I use saws all the time and I am responsible from a owner point of view for safety for other people, we only use professional gear, but, I also know through experience and observation, who should be and who should not be using my equipment and saws.  But the sales force at the 'stores' never get to know.


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## SteveKG (Nov 29, 2009)

Safety chain is less likely to kick-back, but only less likely. Any of them will. If you don't know what you are doing, get someone to show you how to safely use saws. I don't know what this guy did, as in plane crashes it was probably a collection of errors and circumstances that added up. Things happen extremely fast with saws, or can. Faster than we can react, in some cases. An experienced local guy here tried to cut off a very small diameter limb [2"] at chest height, though he later said he knew before he did it that he shouldn't [should have put down the chainsaw and picked up his hand saw]. Saw kicked back and cut him vertically thru his face. Over a year of plastic surgery and recovery. He made it, barely, and looks significantly different nowadays. It only takes one single instance of being tired or careless and your life can be either ended or radically changed. 

Hasn't stopped me from using my saws.


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## savageactor7 (Nov 29, 2009)

^ chest height is dangerous cause it's so relaxing to bend that left elbow and take it easy. DON'T EVER DO THAT. You're better off to step back and straighten up the left arm. The farther that working chain is away from you the better off you are.


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## gpcollen1 (Nov 30, 2009)

Exactly - all those little things need to be thought about, not what type of chain.  Where are my arms, my feet, what is around me...

Was cutting up a neighbors downed tree the other day.  Every type of obstacle you could imagine, as usual with a downed tree.  Small branches/brush to clear and move or trip on, broken bits to step on and twist an ankle, half a tree still standing - and all that with a chain saw roaring in your hands.  Take it slow and stop when tired.  I did not even get half the work done that i had planned but when I started getting tired [when I tripped for the second time], I put the gear away and began the clean up...

...even though there was still light out...


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## carbon neutral (Dec 10, 2009)

Bottom line do you guys think this saw had a chain brake?  If not do you think a chain brake would have saved his life?  Personally I think the saw probably didn't have a chain brake or it didn't engage if it did have one.


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## smokinj (Dec 10, 2009)

carbon neutral said:
			
		

> Bottom line do you guys think this saw had a chain brake?  If not do you think a chain brake would have saved his life?  Personally I think the saw probably didn't have a chain brake or it didn't engage if it did have one.



this guy takes it in the chest there no safty gear for that because it just doesnt happen sounds like no break and maybe working above his head or standing on a ladder


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## rkymtnoffgrid (Dec 10, 2009)

Wow, what a sad and terrible story, can't let my wife see this one.  Thanks for bringing to our attention, this type of sobering news is excatly what you need to see before heading to backyard with the saw.


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## colebrookman (Dec 10, 2009)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> ^ chest height is dangerous cause it's so relaxing to bend that left elbow and take it easy. DON'T EVER DO THAT. You're better off to step back and straighten up the left arm. The farther that working chain is away from you the better off you are.


I would bet "savageactor" has it right. Without a strong arm to trigger the anti kickback, the chain just proceeded to chew him up in a micro second.  That's why it's so important to learn from anothers unfortunate accident.  Be safe.
Ed


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## CrawfordCentury (Dec 10, 2009)

Ken45 said:
			
		

> I agree with you about the old saws.  I have a couple of powerful 1970's saws (a Farmboss 041 and a Homelight XL) that only get brought out for big trees.  They don't have chain brakes and they keep spinning when the throttle is released.   (I wonder if I could get a decent trade in for the pair towards a modern equivalent saw?)



Sounds like a worn clutch. If you're mechanical, its an easy fix.

My 041 is my favorite firewood saw. Damn dependable. 

I use my little 210 for a lot of the small stuff. But feel a lot safer using the 041 even without the brake. There's real potential for injury when you're bogging in the cut.

I'm pretty happy with the range of saws I've assembled. There's a few I use less often not in my signature. But it's a good thing to have a variety for different applications.


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## Gooserider (Dec 12, 2009)

CrawfordCentury said:
			
		

> Ken45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would be more inclined to think overly high idle speed rather than worn clutch...  Symptom I usually think of for a worn clutch is the chain not moving in the cut while the engine is running at (or near) full speed...  OTOH, if the idle is a little on the high side even a new clutch will hook up...

Gooserider


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## craigs (Feb 16, 2010)

I always try to hold my saw with my left arm nearly straight up and down, so if it kicks my forearm will definitely be in line to hit the chain brake.  It looks goofy but doesn't tire my arm out any more than it would normally, and I really think it's a good practice.  If anyone has other advice let's hear it - most of us are cutting wood alone and the more info that's out there the better.


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