# Electrical vs Oil heat



## Dmitry (Sep 29, 2017)

My daughter just got a house. The first floor is heated by oil with water  baseboard system. Second floor heated with electrical baseboards. We are in a process of renovating and now would be a good time to upgrade to oil on a second floor. Is it worth it? What the price compression between these two forms of heating? I've read some reports that contradict each other. Thank you.


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## peakbagger (Sep 29, 2017)

Since you are in the Connecticut I expect they will need or want AC. This would be potentially good application for a minisplit. That gives them heating and cooling and is from 2 to 3 times more efficient then equivalent electric baseboard. The trade off with a minisplt is that the amount of heat it can put out goes down as the temperature drops so you need a backup source of heat which lines up well with the electric baseboard. The other issue is distribution, if there are lot of small rooms, minisplits dont work real well as there has to be good air circulation. There are multilhead units but they are less efficient than a standard single head unit. If there is a bathroom on this floor electric heat is a good supplemental heat as long as you have smart thermostat hooked up to it.


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## iamlucky13 (Sep 29, 2017)

I just looked up the averge Connecticut electricity price. Ouch. That does not bode well for electric heat.

I've already got a spreadsheet set up for this kind of question, so I just ran some very quick calcs. Obviously real world figures will vary depending on quite a few factors, but these numbers should be a pretty decent approximation.

At $0.20 per kW hour, a million BTU's of heat from electric baseboards should cost about $59.

At $2.50 per gallon for heating oil, the same amount of heat from oil, assuming a moderate efficiency boiler, should be about $22.

For a decently insulated home, you could be looking at a really rough ballpark of $600 for a December heating cost for electric vs. $250 for oil.

Another option might be ductless heat pumps. $20 per million BTU and a little over $200 for December's heat. However, I've not researched how well ductless heat pumps actually work in your area. I think you're near the lower end of the winter temperature range they're recommended for.

If others have good experiences with them in your area, I might be more inclined towards the heat pump idea, because I'm not sure there's much reason to expect above inflation price increases for electricity over the next 10-20 years, but there may be for oil. The result could be enough difference in long term costs to recover the typically higher installation costs of a heat pump system.


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## Dmitry (Sep 29, 2017)

They don't have AC now and don't have a ducting for that. So split system is way to go. I didn't know it capable of heating though.


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## peakbagger (Sep 29, 2017)

I am much farther north up in NH and use a minisplit to heat my house down to about 30 degrees it still puts heat out down to -10 but its only a 12000 btu unit. I fire up my wood boiler when it gets consistently colder They are very popular supplemental heaters in Maine. Mitsubishi Hyperheat and Fujitsu brands are the ones to look at. 

Check out you local electrical utility, there may be incentives to install mini splits. NH had a several hundred dollar rebate for each one installed.


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## Dmitry (Sep 29, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> I am much farther north up in NH and use a minisplit to heat my house down to about 30 degrees it still puts heat out down to -10 but its only a 12000 btu unit. I fire up my wood boiler when it gets consistently colder They are very popular supplemental heaters in Maine. Mitsubishi Hyperheat and Fujitsu brands are the ones to look at.
> 
> Check out you local electrical utility, there may be incentives to install mini splits. NH had a several hundred dollar rebate for each one installed.


Nice. They will have wood stove and oil on a first floor. This will help on a cold nights


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## peakbagger (Sep 29, 2017)

Wow, hard to beat that setup to add a couple of minisplits. My minisplit is on the main floor but by leaving a few doors open I can heat my second floor office as long as its not too cold. Just shop around and make sure that you only look at cold climate minisplits. There are off brands but in order to get the efficiency up at low temps it requires some pretty careful engineering, the only brands I here routinely are Misubishi and Fujitsu.  Shop around for pricing, I did a mostly self install as the local dealers in northern NH were outrageous. Except for the line purge and subsequent charging its definitely DIY although I expect most folks would hire and electrician to supply the 220 volt feed. Supplyhouse.com has all the accessories including the vinyl gutters and wall brackets to make the install look good.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 29, 2017)

Might want to see if you actually use that electric much at all first. Usually the second floor will stay within 5 deg of the first floor with no heat at all up there. Even if the electric does come on occasionally in winter it will only be to add a few degrees so shouldnt be too expensive.  Oil is cheaper than electric resistance heat for sure at current prices so id rely mostly on the oil.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Sep 29, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> I am much farther north up in NH and use a minisplit to heat my house down to about 30 degrees it still puts heat out down to -10 but its only a 12000 btu unit. I fire up my wood boiler when it gets consistently colder They are very popular supplemental heaters in Maine. Mitsubishi Hyperheat and Fujitsu brands are the ones to look at.



Check out Daikin too. I installed one recently and it's awesome. A number of brands are offering mini-splits tailored to heat effectively in cold climates. The unit I have is rated at 100% of it's rated output down to -5 degrees! And it doesn't need a supplemental resistive element to achieve that. More important than which brand you get is the model within the brand because manufacturers have a variety of models to suit different intended uses. They all will work but the right unit will save you money every year. Also that the size is suitable. Americans have an odd tendency to over-size just about everything and that can impact cost and efficiency. 

Even though my Daikin is optimized for cold climate heating, it still has very high efficiency in cooling mode. And it's very quiet, both indoors and out.


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## begreen (Sep 29, 2017)

Daikin has been a leader in this field for some time now. I can remember a fellow from New Brunswick that posted results for his system about 7 yrs. ago. They were excellent.


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## Where2 (Sep 29, 2017)

Alternatively, you could check out the units TomInMaine was working on. Seems to me he mentioned it in the Green Room, title: "Space Heat Pumps". It's similar to a mini-split (outside unit), but uses water as the transfer media to the inside unit. According to the specs he posted, it will run heat pump or A/C mode, and rather than having to plumb refrigerant lines you simply have to plumb insulated water lines. Down side is, it might not qualify for a rebate, if your state has them for Mini-Splits.

I have no experience with them, but I definitely want one or two for my farm in northern Maine. Feeding the fossil fueled beast in the basement at any cost seems expensive when I can generate my own electric with PV. Since I don't live at the farm year-round, super low temp abilities can still be handled by the oil boiler, if necessary.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Sep 30, 2017)

Where2 said:


> Alternatively, you could check out the units TomInMaine was working on. Seems to me he mentioned it in the Green Room, title: "Space Heat Pumps". It's similar to a mini-split (outside unit), but uses water as the transfer media to the inside unit. According to the specs he posted, it will run heat pump or A/C mode, and rather than having to plumb refrigerant lines you simply have to plumb insulated water lines. Down side is, it might not qualify for a rebate, if your state has them for Mini-Splits.
> 
> I have no experience with them, but I definitely want one or two for my farm in northern Maine.



How do you keep the insulated water lines outside from freezing?

How does it improve upon currently available mini-splits?


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## Dmitry (Sep 30, 2017)

Got a lot of great info from this thread.Looked up units. When I see a note in  a manual  stating  that system is not supposed to be installed by DIYer, something clicks in my head. Now I want to install it. Seems like can be done after careful  planning and research. Am i wrong ?


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## WoodyIsGoody (Sep 30, 2017)

Dmitry said:


> Got a lot of great info from this thread.Looked up units. When I see a note in  a manual  stating  that system is not supposed to be installed by DIYer, something clicks in my head. Now I want to install it. Seems like can be done after careful  planning and research. Am i wrong ?



That's correct. But for best performance you need to know enough to select the correct unit, where to place the inside and outside units for the best performance (yes, it matters) and, the easy part, follow the installation instructions. But unless you want to buy a few hundred dollars of specialized tools and learn how to properly use them, you probably want a refrigeration professional to install, flare and charge the copper lines. There really is quite a bit to it. Get a skilled person to do this. Just because they are a "pro" and have installed 10 or 20 systems doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Most DIY homeowners could wire the 220V service but would probably want to hire an electrician because, If you don't already know the electrical code, you will need to spend some time making sure it's all legitimate. The 220v service goes outside.

Also, a good mini-split is a significant financial investment. Good luck with your warranty claim if it's installed by a non-dealer, non-professional. The units are also not that tolerant of rough shipping and handling and that's another factor that's out of your control.


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## Dmitry (Sep 30, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> That's correct. But for best performance you need to know enough to select the correct unit, where to place the inside and outside units for the best performance (yes, it matters) and, the easy part, follow the installation instructions. But unless you want to buy a few hundred dollars of specialized tools and learn how to properly use them, you probably want a refrigeration professional to install, flare and charge the copper lines. There really is quite a bit to it. Get a skilled person to do this. Just because they are a "pro" and have installed 10 or 20 systems doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Most DIY homeowners could wire the 220V service but would probably want to hire an electrician because, If you don't already know the electrical code, you will need to spend some time making sure it's all legitimate. The 220v service goes outside.
> 
> Also, a good mini-split is a significant financial investment. Good luck with your warranty claim if it's installed by a non-dealer, non-professional. The units are also not that tolerant of rough shipping and handling and that's another factor that's out of your control.


Yeap, just read message from seller stating that proof of lic installation will be needed if something goes wrong. Damn , it's hard to find good professional, and "pro"s usualy pushing unit that they have more margin buying and installing.


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## begreen (Sep 30, 2017)

If you can do the wiring feed to the unit safely and correctly you might be able to save some $$ there. Here's the old thread I was thinking about. The Daikin owner Amaralluis is in New Brunswick. We also have one person reporting it works well in the Yukon.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/impressed-with-the-daikin-ductless-heat-pump.60963/


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## WoodyIsGoody (Sep 30, 2017)

begreen said:


> If you can do the wiring feed to the unit safely and correctly you might be able to save some $$ there. Here's the old thread I was thinking about. The Daikin owner Amaralluis is in New Brunswick. We also have one person reporting it works well in the Yukon.
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/impressed-with-the-daikin-ductless-heat-pump.60963/



Yes, these things are amazing and I can't figure out why they are not more popular in rural areas (areas without gas service). They are super cheap to operate, they increase indoor air quality, require no user intervention except for setting the temperature and occasional rinsing off of the filter and are nearly silent. For whatever reason, people just go propane, it makes no sense. Plus they keep you cool in the summer for minimal expense. I would have a couple mini-splits in my primary residence if natural gas were not so inexpensive.


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## peakbagger (Sep 30, 2017)

Installation is a scam. The units are very reliable. I talked to a couple of installers, the only repairs they see are owner caused, usually the outdoor unit is hit with something. The warranty does not pay for owner abuse. The price to have one installed in my area is roughly double the cost of the unit. I have done two installs and have paid an authorized tech to install the tubing and purge it. I bought my unit from a dealer in Florida and they guarantee the unit against it being dead out of the box. I do agree that getting any future warranty is close to impossible as the only way to get it honored is through an authorized dealer and they will only do warranty service on units they install. Realistically I can buy a second unit and sit it in my garage for what I would have to pay for a pro install.

The only tricky part of the install is to purge the lines if you buy pre flared lines. It requires a specialized vacuum pump and gauge kit. The price of the tools is just about what you will pay a tech to do a purge. If you call around you may be able to find a dealer that will work with you where you do the grunt work and they do the trickier stuff and give you a reduced install price.


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## Dmitry (Sep 30, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> Installation is a scam. The units are very reliable. I talked to a couple of installers, the only repairs they see are owner caused, usually the outdoor unit is hit with something. The warranty does not pay for owner abuse. The price to have one installed in my area is roughly double the cost of the unit. I have done two installs and have paid an authorized tech to install the tubing and purge it. I bought my unit from a dealer in Florida and they guarantee the unit against it being dead out of the box. I do agree that getting any future warranty is close to impossible as the only way to get it honored is through an authorized dealer and they will only do warranty service on units they install. Realistically I can buy a second unit and sit it in my garage for what I would have to pay for a pro install.
> 
> The only tricky part of the install is to purge the lines if you buy pre flared lines. It requires a specialized vacuum pump and gauge kit. The price of the tools is just about what you will pay a tech to do a purge. If you call around you may be able to find a dealer that will work with you where you do the grunt work and they do the trickier stuff and give you a reduced install price.


Exactly my thought about second unit. My friend just got split and paid around 3k for the lg system that sells for 1.5 k.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Sep 30, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> Installation is a scam. The units are very reliable.



True that the units are very reliable. If properly installed. And there are a number of things that can and do go wrong during the install. Most commonly, a bad flare that causes a slow leak, reduced efficiency and ultimately, failure. Looking on Youtube you can find videos of a guy that goes around fixing bad installs from ignorant or disreputable installers. So, yeah, if it's done improperly the install is a scam. If done properly, and the installer was professional, and whoever was in charge of logistics got everything scheduled without snafu's, and all materials were on the jobsite without additional visits, the homeowner didn't have to be to inconvenienced any more than necessary and the job was finished off in a professional manner and inspected and approved by the local building and electrical authorities, it's worth the cost. The people who do this deserve make enough money to eventually get ahead in life  and it takes a number of people coordinating schedules and materials to make this all come together in a professional manner.

I don't know about the other manufacturers but Daikin requires the vacuum pump remain connected for a minimum of 2 hours (if I recall) and that's after it achieves full vacuum on the gauge.. That's not enough time for the installed to go help anyone else so that's just one small example of something that adds to the expense. A disreputable installer will call it good as soon as the gauge shows maximum vacuum. But molecules matter. Moisture in the system reduces service life. Lot's of ways to cut corners. This is not a go or no go situation, there are degrees of professionalism and this is not a place to cut corners. But, yeah, if you cut corners (but charge for a professional install) it's a scam.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Sep 30, 2017)

Dmitry said:


> Exactly my thought about second unit. My friend just got split and paid around 3k for the lg system that sells for 1.5 k.



True, they are not "plug and play". Just factor in the price of the install to the purchase cost. An underground irrigation system costs a lot more than the price of the components. A new roof costs a lot more than the price of the shingles.


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## begreen (Sep 30, 2017)

Bad flare connections, kinked tubing, contamination are a few of the pitfalls that can happen. In use the main issue locally is fried control boards due to power glitches. Some mfgs. have inadequate surge protection built in.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 30, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> True, they are not "plug and play". Just factor in the price of the install to the purchase cost. An underground irrigation system costs a lot more than the price of the components. A new roof costs a lot more than the price of the shingles.


All true. Most jobs are at least double the materials cost. But many other services involve a lot more time and labor for installation such as roofing as well as excavation work.  I learned how to do dozens of types of repairs because the tools to do it were less than the price of just one installation.  Seems all the trades are paying well lately as people are getting less handy at doing things themselves.  Cant count how many times i opened block drains .If i had to call someone everytime that happened id be bankrupt.


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## georgepds (Oct 10, 2017)

Dmitry said:


> Got a lot of great info from this thread.Looked up units. When I see a note in  a manual  stating  that system is not supposed to be installed by DIYer, something clicks in my head. Now I want to install it. Seems like can be done after careful  planning and research. Am i wrong ?




You are wrong ( says a guy who tried). The tough part is to find an HVAC guy to evacuate the lines. All those who would do it want to sell you the mini-split.

Best bet.. marry into a family of HVAC techs


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## begreen (Oct 10, 2017)

Or find an HVAC worker that wants to make a little weekend cash.


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## georgepds (Oct 10, 2017)

begreen said:


> Or find an HVAC worker that wants to make a little weekend cash.



Have you tried it? Good in theory though


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## Brian26 (Oct 10, 2017)

georgepds said:


> Have you tried it? Good in theory though



No experience with a mini-split but I had central air installed a few years ago. I already had the duct work so just needed the coil and condenser installed.

I had many friends/family/coworkers say I know a guy who will do it on the side for way cheaper.  I could have easily saved like 2-3 grand. I ended up biting the bullet and had a well established local hvac company do it after researching the pros and cons. The biggest being the warranty. The only way to really get the manufacturer to honor the warranty was through an actual local authorized installer. You have someone charge/install it on the side I can assure you that they are not going to honor your warranty. 

My options were pay 7k with a local authorized Carrier dealer. 5 year parts/labor from installer and 10 year Warranty from Carrier. To get the 10 year warranty I had do a lot of paperwork with Carrier and the installer. 

I could have purchased all the same equipment online for like half the cost and had someone do it on the side and saved 2-3 grand easily. My problem was first no factory warranty on a few grand in equipment. And second was if I had issues with the system installed on the side do you really think Joe Schmoe is going to come by and fix it when it breaks especially when it was a side cash deal with nothing on paper.

Mini splits are much less expensive but you would take a huge gamble on warranty and service by not using a local authorized company. I can guarantee you if you spend 2-3 grand on a Mitsubishi and install it yourself and have someone charge it on the side. If the compressor blows or something Mitsubishi  is 100 percent not going to warranty it.


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## peakbagger (Oct 10, 2017)

georgepds said:


> Have you tried it? Good in theory though



I have had lines purged twice by different folks both were authorized Mitsubishi dealers. A local electrical firm had a tech to support these installs, I watched him and he cut corners. The second crew did it by the book. 

The cost for my second unit (heating and cooling) was $1650 delivered. Between parts and the charge it came up to around $2,100. The lowest price installed for a one ton unit was $4,100 not including the electrical supply to the disconnect. I basically could buy a spare. My research is that the Mitsubishi units rarely break down for warranty cause. The normal repair is damage to the outdoor unit or tubing, usually from foreign objects hitting it. They do rarely fail out of the box and if I had to the dealer I bought it from florida would replace it.


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## georgepds (Oct 11, 2017)

Why did you have the lines purged? My units came pre charged... the procedure was to evacuate the lines before releasing the coolant from the unit. Is this what you mean?


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## begreen (Oct 11, 2017)

Yes, the lines get purged of air.


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## peakbagger (Nov 2, 2017)

Sorry I missed the question on purging. If the unit is new the lines are first pressurized with nitrogen, this dries out any moisture in the lines and also let the installer check for leaks by watching the gauge to see if it leaks down. Then the nitrogen is purged with a vacuum pump until the appropriate vacuum is obtained. The installer is then supposed to shut the valve and let the setup sit for overnight and see if there was any leak down. Then the valve i opened slowly all the way until its backseated to charge the minisplit with the refrigerant. These units use hermetic (sealed) compressors so they should stay charged for years just like a refrigerator.

Many installers skip steps, some skip the nitrogen test and most skip the overnight test. They usually get away with it and go make money elsewhere.

The Air to Water units that Tom in Maine (American Solartechnics) sells dont need purging as all the refrigerant is in the outdoor unit. All you need to do is run water lines into the house, heat trace and insulate them.

I have heard that used units need to have the lube oil purged out of the lines before they are reused. I havent gone through that yet but expect that could be a hassle.


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