# The results of horizontal pipe with Wood Gun.



## Gasifier (Feb 19, 2013)

I have a short section of horizontal pipe left in my run to the vertical chimney outside. This is not avoidable because it goes through the thimble in the wall here. I recently took my pipe apart and cleaned it all out because it has been a while and I have been burning a lot of wood with the cold weather. This is why I don't liked the idea of horizontal pipe. I forgot the after cleaning picture. LOL


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## BoilerMan (Feb 19, 2013)

How many cord you put through with that much buildup Gass?

TS


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## Gasifier (Feb 19, 2013)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> How many cord you put through with that much buildup Gass?
> 
> TS



Hmmmm. Now I have to remember when I cleaned it last. Estimate. About two cord.


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## Ncountry (Feb 19, 2013)

On the plus side, it looks like all fly ash and no creosote.


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## Gasifier (Feb 19, 2013)

Ncountry said:


> On the plus side, it looks like all fly ash and no creosote.


This is true. The only place I seem to get some creosote now is at the cap of the chimney. Going over to insulated pipe inside as well has helped.


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## muncybob (Feb 22, 2013)

My long inclined horizontal run is also unavoidable. I got about 2 cups of fly ash when I last cleaned it after 2 months of burning(Dec-Jan). A considerable amount more does collect in the 90 elbow at the bottom of my chimney though, which requires an every other month cleaning to avoid blocking the chimney. I didn't realize this the 1st year of wood usage and when I pulled the horizontal pipe at the end of the season that elbow was about 75% blocked!


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## stee6043 (Feb 22, 2013)

Eeekkk...I'd personally be learly of posting such photos on the interweb. I believe most of our UL 103 HT pipes have a requirement of having not more than 24" horizontal to be a "manufacturer approved installation".  Is that entire section horizontal?

Should you ever suffer an insured loss your underwriters may well find things like this and use it to fight a payout...

My two cents only.


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## Gasifier (Feb 22, 2013)

muncybob said:


> My long inclined horizontal run is also unavoidable. I got about 2 cups of fly ash when I last cleaned it after 2 months of burning(Dec-Jan). A considerable amount more does collect in the 90 elbow at the bottom of my chimney though, which requires an every other month cleaning to avoid blocking the chimney. I didn't realize this the 1st year of wood usage and when I pulled the horizontal pipe at the end of the season that elbow was about 75% blocked!


 
As long as the cyclone does not get plugged, I don't usually see much at all in there. I had a pretty good amount of Ash at my 90 clean-out on the outside of the house as well. I pulled that plug after I had placed a box under it, then pushed this stuff through. I had more than 2 cups, probably more like 10! I would think most of that ash is from when I had a plugged cyclone during that time. Every once and a while that still happens. I check it much more often than I use to though. It had been a longer time this time since I had cleaned it and we had some pretty cold weather there a few times. I want to say it had been maybe 2 months and I had burned around 2 cord.


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## Gasifier (Feb 22, 2013)

stee6043 said:


> Eeekkk...I'd personally be learly of posting such photos on the interweb. I believe most of our UL 103 HT pipes have a requirement of having not more than 24" horizontal to be a "manufacturer approved installation". Is that entire section horizontal? Should you ever suffer an insured loss your underwriters may well find things like this and use it to fight a payout... My two cents only.


 
Safety is the reason I did away with all horizontal that was not absolutely necessary. This is the only section of horizontal I have and it is, you guessed it, a two foot section.  Now, why would they have that requirement with insulated and fire rated pipe. Safety I would think. And then AHS tells you to have longer sections of regular black stove pipe running horizontal with clean outs so you can clean them regularly.? I would think that would be more dangerous than what I have. Here is a shot of it when it is in place.


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## muncybob (Feb 22, 2013)

I believe at the old AHS "showroom" location they had a running WG with about a 4' horizontal run.
Gas, it seems you check the cyclone frequently...does it not need to be re-caulked after each inspection?


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## Gasifier (Feb 22, 2013)

The only place I recaulk is right above the cyclone where the black pipe comes out of cyclone. Just the connection at the cyclone. I then seperate where you see the horizontal start and it all comes out in one piece. Then I have the joints of the insulated pipe sealed with a high temp tape to stop any air leakage. I need to buy a higher temp tape though.


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## mark123 (Mar 6, 2013)

I have almost 9' of horizontal pipe and I usually clean it once a year. I was under the impression that AHS recommended long horizontal runs to minimize the risk of glowing embers escaping out the chimney, in my situation it was the only way. I recently built all new pipe from 16 gauge stainless, all Tig welded with bolted on flange covers for cleaning. I got fed up with smoke escaping from seams and had an episode of the silicone burning off with flames almost touching the wooden floor joists (wife witnessed it). Materials cost me around $250.00 plus my welding time. Completely air tight now.


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## avc8130 (Mar 6, 2013)

Mark123,

That is S E X Y.  LOVE IT.

How did you connect to the cyclone?

ac


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## mark123 (Mar 6, 2013)

It fits inside the cyclone and 3 self tapping SS screws hold it there, I had to seal it there with high temp silicone. My silicone burning problem occured in the horizontal run of my previous pipe, small charcoal bits accumulated there and then caught on fire, the whole first run was glowing bright orange and the silicone burned off. This should not happen at the cyclone and if it did there is nothing there to catch fire.


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## avc8130 (Mar 6, 2013)

If/when my double-wall needs replacement I plan to do similar. 

How did you interface with the masonry chimney?

ac


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## Gasifier (Mar 6, 2013)

Mark123. That is a nice set up you have there. Nice work man. So what you are saying about AHS's idea is the live embers will drop before getting to chimney with the horizontal runs. Then you clean them out. The only problem with this thinking is if you get someone who has the regular black pipe and has it all sealed up with high temp caulk they hate to break that nice seal of caulk more often than they should. It gets to be a pain. Then on occasion their ash cyclone gets plugged at the bottom and before they find out some more ash and charcoal has been deposited in the pipes. Repeat this a couple/three/four times and before you know it you have a potential for a full blown fire in a pipe that is not designed to handle that fire. Many of those high temps caulks are also not designed for a fire that may be above those temps. With your set up only costing you about 250 plus some welding time, it would seem to cut the risk by an great bit. I went over to insulated S.S. chimney. I hope some day to have a welder weld the seams of my pipe together if he can weld that thin wall pipe. ?


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## mark123 (Mar 6, 2013)

I have 7" ss liner which comes out of the brick chimney approx 12" , the 6" pipe I made fits inside this and I wrapped several wraps of 3/4" fiberglass rope (woodstove door seal) around the 6" and stuffed it into the space between the 2, just before the last wrap I squeezed high temp silicone in there as well and then put a final wrap of rope and stuffed it all in. 3 wraps of rope then silicone then another wrap.


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## Gasifier (Mar 6, 2013)

Mark123. I probably asked you this before and forgot. My brain works sometimes. Sometimes not.  How much do you heat with that massive machine of yours?


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## mark123 (Mar 6, 2013)

To make the pipe I just had a local sheet metal shop roll me some 16 gauge 304SS, I then put some ratchet straps around it to bring it tight and then Tig welded it. Those flanges come off in a few seconds using a cordless drill to remove the 1/4" SS machine screws. For the seal I put high temp silicone on one flange and then bedded some 1/2" door seal rope in it. I then waxed the cover with paste wax and loosely fitted screwed it on until the silicone set for a day. Now it can be removed and replaced easily and when tightend is air tight. Cutting the fishmouth shaped ends of the pipe on an angle was tricky and took some trial and error.


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## avc8130 (Mar 6, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> Mark123. That is a nice set up you have there. Nice work man. So what you are saying about AHS's idea is the live embers will drop before getting to chimney with the horizontal runs. Then you clean them out. The only problem with this thinking is if you get someone who has the regular black pipe and has it all sealed up with high temp caulk they hate to break that nice seal of caulk more often than they should. It gets to be a pain. Then on occasion their ash cyclone gets plugged at the bottom and before they find out some more ash and charcoal has been deposited in the pipes. Repeat this a couple/three/four times and before you know it you have a potential for a full blown fire in a pipe that is not designed to handle that fire. Many of those high temps caulks are also not designed for a fire that may be above those temps. With your set up only costing you about 250 plus some welding time, it would seem to cut the risk by an great bit. I went over to insulated S.S. chimney. I hope some day to have a welder weld the seams of my pipe together if he can weld that thin wall pipe. ?


 
Gas,

If you REALLY follow AHS's suggestion it makes perfect sense.  AHS suggests horizontal runs to trap any fly ash and embers that get pushed through the cyclone.  They ALSO recommend you use clean-out tees instead of elbows.  This allows access to clean the horizontal run about as easily as you can access the gassification tubes. 

I took a tip from Dean at Smokeless Heat.  Rather than use high temp silicone on the clean out cap, I stuff Roxul around the cap and screw it in.  Works perfect and is super easy to service. 

No flying embers out my chimney, easy maintenance.

ac


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## mark123 (Mar 6, 2013)

I heat 4000SF and run it in the summer for domestic as well. I probably could have gotten away with a 140 but I wanted to make sure I had enough. Also I might put a hot tub out on the deck someday and would like to hook it up to the woodgun as well


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## Gasifier (Mar 6, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Gas,
> If you REALLY follow AHS's suggestion it makes perfect sense. AHS suggests horizontal runs to trap any fly ash and embers that get pushed through the cyclone. They ALSO recommend you use clean-out tees instead of elbows. This allows access to clean the horizontal run about as easily as you can access the gassification tubes.
> I took a tip from Dean at Smokeless Heat. Rather than use high temp silicone on the clean out cap, I stuff Roxul around the cap and screw it in. Works perfect and is super easy to service.
> No flying embers out my chimney, easy maintenance.
> ac


 
Ja. I know, and knew what they were trying to do with their runs. I also know that mine works better for my situation. It is safer. Period. And I have only one joint I have to caulk now. Better, in my opinion.


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## avc8130 (Mar 6, 2013)

Mark,

What do you have going on there with your intake?

ac


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## mark123 (Mar 6, 2013)

I have approx. 20' of 6" ductwork for the intake, I was told to go down right out of the boiler so if the fire started burn backwards do to a malfunction such as the fan shuting off and the air inlet door staying open that the smoke would not be drawn out, The main reason I did the cold air intake was to eliminate smoke entering the house when it starts chugging , one time I had one of those explosions and it blew the long section of ductwork wide open. All the seams are duct taped now. Even with everything sealed as best I can I still get a tiny creosote smell throughout the house the odd time and I can't figure out where it is coming from, it must be coming from somewhere after it shuts down and is idle. All door seals are good and tight and air inlet flap seal is good


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## stee6043 (Mar 7, 2013)

It looks like your homemade smoke pipe gets pretty close to that plywood.  Any concerns there, Mark? 

I've never heard of someone making their own vent pipe.  It looks awesome but I can't help but wonder what the code/insurance guys would think...


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## mark123 (Mar 7, 2013)

That last picture is the cold air intake pipe, if you are refering to the previous picture, it does like like it in the picture but it is at least 3' from that wall.


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

Mark,

I figured that was an intake setup.  It looks pretty good to me.  I've often planned to duct mine outside, but haven't gotten around to it yet.  Did you increase to 6" due to the long run?

I see you run the Riello oil burner.  How do you like it?

Stee,

It looks like there is more space between the pipe and the plywood than most single wall requires for code.  No clue on the code nazis, but what he has there looks AT LEAST as safe as some 22 gauge steel "stove pipe" that the code accepts.

ac


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## mark123 (Mar 7, 2013)

I originally had the same intake route but with 4" and had some chugging issues the odd time so I went 6" and it didn't change anything, if anything I would have to say it made it worse, now I just let it do it's thing and the chuggng stops after a few minutes. Using the 4" was probably restricting some flow similar to closing over the intake damper a little bit. In the 3 years I have had this I only ran the burner for 1 week when I went away. The problem was that when I went to use it it was covered in soot, creosote and wouldn't fire up, the smoke plug AHS was letting smoke by it especially when it was chugging.It had become oval shaped from rocking back and forth.  I did another alteration to fix this problem. I welded 4 stainless bolts around the oil fire tube and made a 1/4" plate that fits over it and is held there with 4 nuts. Only take a minute to remove. I could take some pics if you want. One last alteration I plan on doing eventually is making an aluminum cone shaped plug to replace the flat silicone/steel air inlet flap, I think metal on metal would be better, maybe not, just another experiment.


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## muncybob (Mar 7, 2013)

Mark, would like to see pics of the oil plug you came up with. So far the AHS plug is serving it's purpose for me but it's not exactly a tight fit. I had to defeat the fan when burning oil...draft was way too high...did you have to do this too? I also rarely burn oil but when I do I have to watch on the initial burn as the flu temps get really high...a consequence to no fan running???

ac, not exactly picturing your Roxul/cap idea...pics??


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## Fred61 (Mar 7, 2013)

Nice job on the pipe Mark. I think you're on the right track. Long horizontal run allows the embers to drop out of the exhaust stream preventing them from going up and out on to your roof. I only had about two feet of horizontal about 6.5 feet up and had several fires in that little section. Scarey at times. As long as the pipe is substantial enough to support a one hour long fire, I'd say it takes care of two problems. My pipe would turn red and burn off the sealant several feet in both directions.


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

muncybob said:


> Mark, would like to see pics of the oil plug you came up with. So far the AHS plug is serving it's purpose for me but it's not exactly a tight fit. I had to defeat the fan when burning oil...draft was way too high...did you have to do this too? I also rarely burn oil but when I do I have to watch on the initial burn as the flu temps get really high...a consequence to no fan running???
> 
> ac, not exactly picturing your Roxul/cap idea...pics??


 
Remind me and I will snap you some tonight.

ac


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## CTFIRE (Mar 7, 2013)

I haven't hooked my oil up yet. The burner is attached, just not the lines. Should I be cleaning it out regularly? I think we may go away next year during the winter and I will need the oil by then. Should that lower hole be blocked?


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

CTFIRE said:


> I haven't hooked my oil up yet. The burner is attached, just not the lines. Should I be cleaning it out regularly? I think we may go away next year during the winter and I will need the oil by then. Should that lower hole be blocked?


 
I don't have any first hand experience, but what I will do when I finally install my oil burner and consider using it is this:

1. Use the oil plug whenever burning wood.
2. When I plan to switch to oil I will remove the plug and clean the boiler of ash.
3. I will run the boiler on oil for at least a day to make sure it is reliably firing on oil before I depend on it.

ac


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## mark123 (Mar 7, 2013)

For sure, AHS recommends the plug if you are not using the oil burner weekly, if you have been burning wood for any length of time without a plug I can almost guarantee you your burner is covered with soot etc..and will not work. I am surprised you are not getting a smoke smell through it, the smoke can go down the oil burner tube and exit through the burner's air inlet. Although there is a flap there mine puffed smoke out of it when it was chugging even with the plug installed. Here is a pic of my original plug, it is kind of hard to see but the 3 layers are not aligned and the whole thing is not round anymore . This is my new cover, I remove it a couple of times/year just to test the oil burner and it seems to be working. The bolts are 1" X 1/4" stainless hex head, I welded the heads to the boiler.


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

Mark,

I get a bit of smell in the basement.  It reminds me I am burning wood.  Similar to the smell I had when I was running my wood stove in my living room.

I like that oil burner port cover.  I don't know why AHS doesn't do it that way.  Seems MUCH easier than the method they use actually.

ac


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## CTFIRE (Mar 7, 2013)

I don't think I got an oil plug. No smoke coming from mine. Gonna have to get a good cleaning done then. Thx


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## mark123 (Mar 7, 2013)

Try looking down the oil tube with a flashlight and you should be able to see if it looks dirty


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

CTFIRE said:


> I don't think I got an oil plug. No smoke coming from mine. Gonna have to get a good cleaning done then. Thx


 
Do you have auto or manual oil backup?

No plugs are supplied with auto as it could be very dangerous. 

ac


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## CTFIRE (Mar 7, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Do you have auto or manual oil backup?
> 
> No plugs are supplied with auto as it could be very dangerous.
> 
> ac


That's the ticket. I have the auto version.


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## muncybob (Mar 7, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> No plugs are supplied with auto as it could be very dangerous.
> 
> ac


 

Yep, we almost experienced this first hand. I was out of town and the Mrs didn't want to hassle with wood so asked me on the phone can she burn oil to which I replied yes a long as you pull the plug. Well, she pulled large one and fired the boiler for a few minutes when she realized something was wrong. Thankfully she killed the power and called me right away! Got some smoke back up but that was a welcome outcome to what possibly could have happened!


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

muncybob said:


> Yep, we almost experienced this first hand. I was out of town and the Mrs didn't want to hassle with wood so asked me on the phone can she burn oil to which I replied yes a long as you pull the plug. Well, she pulled large one and fired the boiler for a few minutes when she realized something was wrong. Thankfully she killed the power and called me right away! Got some smoke back up but that was a welcome outcome to what possibly could have happened!


 
What plug did she pull?  The center gas chamber?


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## muncybob (Mar 7, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> What plug did she pull? The center gas chamber?


 yep!


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

muncybob said:


> yep!


 
LOL

I'm glad you shared.  I'm sure one of the WG-haters will add this to the list of things wrong with the WG.


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## mark123 (Mar 7, 2013)

muncybob said:


> Mark, would like to see pics of the oil plug you came up with. So far the AHS plug is serving it's purpose for me but it's not exactly a tight fit. I had to defeat the fan when burning oil...draft was way too high...did you have to do this too? I also rarely burn oil but when I do I have to watch on the initial burn as the flu temps get really high...a consequence to no fan running???
> 
> ac, not exactly picturing your Roxul/cap idea...pics??


 
I was having problems with the fan extinguishing the oil flame but a friend of mine who works on burners adjusted the air inlet on the burner and now it works fine, I don't know too much about oil burners but there is a little flap in there that can be adjusted, it is closed when the burner is off and then it opens so much when it is firing, you can limit how far it opens.


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

mark123 said:


> I was having problems with the fan extinguishing the oil flame but a friend of mine who works on burners adjusted the air inlet on the burner and now it works fine, I don't know too much about oil burners but there is a little flap in there that can be adjusted, it is closed when the burner is off and then it opens so much when it is firing, you can limit how far it opens.


 
That's a Riello thing.  Beckett doesn't have this.  That is the main reason the Riello are a bit higher efficiency, less losses while the boiler IDLES.  AHS chose the Riello because of that flap.  It keeps the boiler vacuum created by the draft fan coming through the dampered intake and through the nozzles 100%. 

ac


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## mark123 (Mar 7, 2013)

Lucky me, I randomly chose the Reillo over the Aero and Beckett when they offered me the 3 choices.


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

mark123 said:


> Lucky me, I randomly chose the Reillo over the Aero and Beckett when they offered me the 3 choices.


 
As long as you have a burner service guy who understands the Riello, you are in good shape.  In the US the Beckett is so common it seems no service techs understand how to work on anything else.

ac


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## Fred61 (Mar 7, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> LOL
> 
> I'm glad you shared. I'm sure one of the WG-haters will add this to the list of things wrong with the WG.


 Actually I'm neutral on that subject but that reminds me of a thought I had since the topic of Wood Guns has arisen even though I have not been invited to participate in the conversation.
What would be nice is if one of you guys had the cojones to insert a secondary combustion air tube through that plug and through the access door with some sort of air adjusting mechanism. I only became familiar with the need for secondary combustion since junking my Wood Gun and had recently thought if the injection of secondary air would achieve a more complete combustion and get rid of that sulfur smelling exhaust that's common with the Wood Gun. I still think it is the odor of unburned wood gas.


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> Actually I'm neutral on that subject but that reminds me of a thought I had since the topic of Wood Guns has arisen even though I have not been invited to participate in the conversation.
> What would be nice is if one of you guys had the cojones to insert a secondary combustion air tube through that plug and through the access door with some sort of air adjusting mechanism. I only became familiar with the need for secondary combustion since junking my Wood Gun and had recently thought if the injection of secondary air would achieve a more complete combustion and get rid of that sulfur smelling exhaust that's common with the Wood Gun. I still think it is the odor of unburned wood gas.


 
Fred,

I've had that thought many times.  I've been trying to work through an easy way to do it.  I thought about a simple pipe from the intake running down along the back wall of the wood chamber and below the nozzle. 

I believe AHS has a secondary air injection system designed, but I have yet to see one.

ac


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## Fred61 (Mar 7, 2013)

With induced draft the air could come from the room. no other plumbing necessary.

EDIT: Oh I see. You don't want to drill a hole in your door


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> With induced draft the air could come from the room. no other plumbing necessary.
> 
> EDIT: Oh I see. You don't want to drill a hole in your door


 
Correct, for 2 reasons.

1. If it doesn't work, I don't want a hole in the door since the door is complex made from steel and concrete of sorts.
2. How would I seal this hole up when there is no call for fire?  Sticking with the intake would keep the air supply "off" when the damper closes. A separate hole in the door would not be closed when the damper closes.

ac


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## Fred61 (Mar 7, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Correct, for 2 reasons.
> 
> 1. If it doesn't work, I don't want a hole in the door since the door is complex made from steel and concrete of sorts.
> 2. How would I seal this hole up when there is no call for fire? Sticking with the intake would keep the air supply "off" when the damper closes. A separate hole in the door would not be closed when the damper closes.
> ...


 Perhaps you've listed the reasons for not having secondary combustion yet . More complicated than first imagined. Experiment didn't work....Now I have a hole in my doo!! Or perhaps you'll be retiring your cycle timer assuming the smallest amount of draft.
I had to replace the soft refractory in the doors because they are used as targets and they eroded away. I was able to purchase the same exact material from a commercial kiln supplier up in Montpelier Vermont.


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> Perhaps you've listed the reasons for not having secondary combustion yet . More complicated than first imagined. Experiment didn't work....Now I have a hole in my doo!! Or perhaps you'll be retiring your cycle timer assuming the smallest amount of draft.
> I had to replace the soft refractory in the doors because they are used as targets and they eroded away. I was able to purchase the same exact material from a commercial kiln supplier up in Montpelier Vermont.


 
I don't see how air entering below the fire could ever exit below its entrance point and go up the chimney.

Did your doors have the SS skin over the refractory in line with the tubes?

Had you put any thought into tapping into the air intake tube in the wood box and running a pipe straight down along the back wall into the refractory behind the last nozzle brick? 

ac


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## Fred61 (Mar 7, 2013)

I never thought of secondary air at all when I had mine but I think adding secondary air at that point in the combustion tube would be too late.


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## Fred61 (Mar 7, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> I don't see how air entering below the fire could ever exit below its entrance point and go up the chimney​


 What would stop the draft from sucking any air out the stack. Then make-up air enters loaded with oxygen.


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## avc8130 (Mar 7, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> What would stop the draft from sucking any air out the stack. Then make-up air enters loaded with oxygen.


 
Right...so combustion would continue actively when the damper is closed and we want to quell combustion?

ac


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## Fred61 (Mar 7, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Right...so combustion would continue actively when the damper is closed and we want to quell combustion?
> 
> ac


 Right


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