# abandoning my wonderful heated floor



## barnartist (May 18, 2017)

I'm doing a big house remodel. We seem to want real wood flooring or even a good engineered flooring. But it turns out my hydronic heated floor could ruin such a floor. 
I am considering a baseboard type product but I'd want it to look like trim so its not noticeable.
A. Thoughts on my current heating options
B. Where/what should I look into for the baseboard heating?
C. Will I like a baseboard type heating?


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## Seasoned Oak (May 18, 2017)

Some types of wood flooring are compatible with radiant floor heat.  After many years of installing various types of heat ,i dont like the look of any of the baseboard units.  Hidden heat is best but probably cast iron baseboard is the least objectionable looking type. Finned baseboard looks so cheap and tacky IMO.


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## Jan Pijpelink (May 18, 2017)

When using the right padding under your wooden floor, you can use radiant heat without damaging the wood or even without shrinking it.
Assuming the radiant heating is controlled using a thermostat in combination with correct padding you should be fine.


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## jetsam (May 19, 2017)

Lots of people have wood over radiant subfloors.

If it is the old style copper-hydronic-in-mud setup, you may want to consider replacing it anyway, because that stuff has a limited lifespan. Newer hydronic systems are more durable, and there's electric radiant underlayment now.


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## djkeev (May 19, 2017)

If you have a concrete floor, I'd worry more about wood on concrete than wood over radiant heat! 

If your radiant in floor heat is on a wood framed floor system be very aware of the fastening nails used,  thickness of subfloor and radiant heat tube damage. 

Dave


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## peakbagger (May 19, 2017)

FYI, there are other options like radiant behind walls and ceilings that have many of the benefits of radiant floors without the downside.


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## Wickets (May 19, 2017)

agree with others here ( i did a whole house remodel two years ago and radiant heat was a must have and so I'm an expert now LOL) that wood flooring is fine.  Whomever is advising you needs to be replaced!


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## Wickets (May 19, 2017)

P.S. baseboard heating is the absolute worst looking contraption ever invented, AND it takes up an incredible amount of space, AND is a total PITA to keep clean


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## Highbeam (May 19, 2017)

If you must abandon the tubes, consider the modern flat panel radiators. Hang on the wall and relatively small.


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## Rearscreen (May 19, 2017)

barnartist said:


> But it turns out my hydronic heated floor could ruin such a floor.


I doubt it. When you say "ruin" what does that mean? I'd like to know what you learned. I had a southern yellow pine T & G  floor that had no problems whatsoever. I now have wide plank pine with radiant. No problems. Radiant and baseboard are 2 different types of heat and are completely different in terms of comfort and efficiency.


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## barnartist (May 20, 2017)

Jan Pijpelink said:


> When using the right padding under your wooden floor, you can use radiant heat without damaging the wood or even without shrinking it.
> Assuming the radiant heating is controlled using a thermostat in combination with correct padding you should be fine.


Can you tell me where to research this padding?


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## barnartist (May 20, 2017)

Wickets said:


> agree with others here ( i did a whole house remodel two years ago and radiant heat was a must have and so I'm an expert now LOL) that wood flooring is fine.  Whomever is advising you needs to be replaced!


The company that manufactures the engineered flooring said I could not use their product over a heated floor. It's 3/4 thick-bacically plywood with a hickory layer on top. Thoughts?


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## barnartist (May 20, 2017)

Rearscreen said:


> I doubt it. When you say "ruin" what does that mean? I'd like to know what you learned. I had a southern yellow pine T & G  floor that had no problems whatsoever. I now have wide plank pine with radiant. No problems. Radiant and baseboard are 2 different types of heat and are completely different in terms of comfort and efficiency.


I'm not sure but the company that makes the flooring won't back up their product I guess. The engineered flooring is basically a plywood with a thin layer of hickory as the top layer. It's 3/4" thick.


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## jetsam (May 20, 2017)

barnartist said:


> The company that manufactures the engineered flooring said I could not use their product over a heated floor. It's 3/4 thick-bacically plywood with a hickory layer on top. Thoughts?



Pick a different floor. Call the tech/install support from that company and ask if it's ok over a heated floor.

The first one might be ok if you really love it, but it's clearly not going to be warrantied if you do. Might be something to do with the glue they use.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 20, 2017)

Im going on the assumption  is that you have a manifold type system and a thermostatically controlled water temp going under your floor at the required water temp of  85 to 100 degrees.  Wood floors being on the lower end of that scale. Some laminates call for even lower water temps of 82 degrees.


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## DBoon (May 21, 2017)

barnartist said:


> The company that manufactures the engineered flooring said I could not use their product over a heated floor.



I would also suggest a call to tech support. Be ready with information about what the fluid (loop) temperature is with the radiant floor and what temperature the surface of the floor will run at.  Healthyheating.com has a lot of data in this respect - but in general, if your fluid temperatures are 105 degrees F or less, and you have 3/4" strip flooring every 5/8" plywood, you are going to have floor temperatures probably in the 75-80 degree range.  I would think this would be safe for the floor you describe, but that is something for tech support to answer. What might make a difference is the width of the flooring (narrower is better). 

I am sure that the flooring company has had situations where people run very hot water through the radiant tubing, get floors that have localized temperatures of 80 degrees plus, and then complain to the company about the failures.  So if you can ask the right questions and reassure them that you won't be doing this, you might get a better quality answer from them.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 21, 2017)

It is more expensive to install the correct setup for radiant to bring the boiler temp water down to safe levels for flooring so it is not surprising that you will have some skipping that step entirely and trying to run the same much hotter water they pipe to the baseboard radiation into the radiant floor setup thus making a mess of some types of flooring.


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## xman23 (May 21, 2017)

I don't have radiant floor heat. But I know someone the has it installed under the sub floor, between the floor joist. The issue he has at the temp he needs the water at he can't heat the house.


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## djkeev (May 22, 2017)

Xman, your friends has either.....

An incorrectly designed system,

A poorly installed system,

Tries to operate it as one would hor water baseboard with set back times,

A poorly designed/ insulated house,

NE Pa is not a problem for a proper in floor heat system. 

I'll bet money it was a DIY design and install. 

Dave


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## barnartist (May 22, 2017)

My hydronic setup allows me to pump in the desired water temperature.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 22, 2017)

You could always use both hot water radiation and radiant floors as long as you have a separate stream of correct (lower)temp  water going to the radiant floors. Too much expansion and contraction going on to use boiler temp water in radiant floor tubing. Plus a lot of other hazards.


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## Highbeam (May 22, 2017)

It is way easier and safer for the floor company to say that installation over radiant heat is prohibited. That way they are always free from warranty claims even though the flooring might be totally fine. If you install anyways be prepared to accept the risk and lose your warranty.

It's not about whether it's right or wrong, this exclusion is one of the terms of the warranty. Choose another floor that allows it, shut off the radiant, or take the risk.


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## xman23 (May 22, 2017)

djkeev said:


> Xman, your friends has either.....
> 
> An incorrectly designed system,
> 
> ...



Yes I agree, not having enough heat, was just a poor design. It was big old house that had steam that he removed. And yes it was a homebrew heating he did.  I will say my stove heat has caused a bit of a gap in my oak floor right in front of the stove.


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## maple1 (May 25, 2017)

The last thing I would do is stop using my in-floor heat.

I would either find a different flooring, or take my chances with it. There are lots of people who have wood floors with heat underneath.

I don't think I can go along with the above mention of a padding either. Which sounds like an insulating layer. It would be blocking the heat from going where it's needed, which is up. Unless I am misunderstanding something.

You also might get more input if this is posted in the boiler room, maybe.


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## 68bucks (Aug 16, 2017)

I was interested in this topic for a system I'm considering. I contacted the flooring manufacturer (Chelsea Plank Flooring) and asked them. The told me I can heat through the wood but to keep the temp 85° or below and to bring the temp up slowly. They said the first problem that would appear would be gaping and if it gets really dry in the house I could see splitting especially at the plank ends. If those problems appear turn down the temp and add moisture to the air.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 17, 2017)

If its a small room such as a bathroom ,you can get those electric heated mats to go under the finished floor. Easy to regulate with a wall thermostat and very low power draw.


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## 68bucks (Aug 18, 2017)

My project is a large floor area. The room is about 1100 sf and about 800 of it is wood, the balance is tile. I'm not sure I will do this I'm having second thoughts. I'd hate to mess up that floor. I also wonder how warm the house would feel with floors 85° or less. I have to imagine it would take a long time to warm a room up like that.


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## maple1 (Aug 18, 2017)

In floor heating isn't really intended to warm a room up - rather maintain the warmth 24/7 all winter.

Is your flooring in place - or in the planning stages? What do you have for an existing system now?


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## peakbagger (Aug 18, 2017)

I took John Siegenthalers course on modern hydronic heating. He had a lot of good reasons why underfloor heating is not a great idea. If you are ripping out sheet rock, he was a far bigger advocate of properly designed radiant walls and ceiling.

The supply temps have to be higher as the thickness of the intervening materials increase, with wood flooring, there is usually a subfloor and possibly a pad and then the wood flooring this has an effective R value and meanwhile heat is trying to radiate to elsewhere to the space under the floor. The net result is you need to run hotter water under the floor then into radiant emitters or a properly designed radiant wall or celiling.


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## 68bucks (Aug 18, 2017)

Yes my floors are already in. I won't be taking any walls apart, that's already been done a couple years ago. Plus I have to think that wall heating would be done on interior walls and there aren't very many of those in this space, its an open concept house. I'm definitely having second thoughts on the through the floor idea. I might be just as well off tying into my forced air system.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 18, 2017)

Try your existing setup  with 85-90 degree water if thats possible ,and see how it works.  No way you can ruin anything at those temps.


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## maple1 (Aug 18, 2017)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Try your existing setup  with 85-90 degree water if thats possible ,and see how it works.  No way you can ruin anything at those temps.



If the floor heating setup isn't installed yet though, it's a pretty big step to do that if not sure on the outcome.


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## maple1 (Aug 18, 2017)

Any possibility of rads? Panels or even old style cast iron?


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## 68bucks (Aug 18, 2017)

I have looked at radiators, mainly baseboard. Not big on the aesthetics of it. I'm guessing my wife wouldn't be either.


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## maple1 (Aug 18, 2017)

Panel rads aren't quite the same as 'baseboards' (what I have) - can use lower temps & I think look better. Cost more though.


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## peakbagger (Aug 18, 2017)

There are some nice European radiant panels that look like wide trim boards.

http://www.houseneeds.com/heating/h...n-rcv-steel-panel-baseboard-heaters-rcv21-600

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Runtal-Baseboard-Radiators-852000

The hassle with a lot of open space concept homes are that they optimized for the view with high ceilings and lots of glass rather than energy efficiency, they look great but can be a bear to heat. 

I saw one a few years ago, daylight basement built into a hillside with floor to ceiling glass, then main floor with cathedral ceilings with glass from floor level up to the roof easily 2- 1/2 stories of glass. Only problem was the view was facing north 
The folks who bought it got a great bargain until the first winters heating bill.


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## fbelec (Aug 19, 2017)

i've done the electrical end of many after thought radiant floor jobs and you need to know if there is a floor over another floor you would have to install more tubing or get rid of the extra floor. my floor in front of my stove is starting to lift at the edges. it can't take the heat which there is very little. heat rises. the floor in front of the stove might be 80 or 85. my floor is not a cheapy brand it is a pergo brand (which i will never do again). if you have a pad between the tubes and the finish floor you will not be warm enough. if you have (and i've seen many) floor over the old floor sometimes 3 floors you won't be warm enough. i've been on jobs where the floor was put in as after thought in a old house with two tubes per bay, reflective metal under the tubes, insulated rim joist and insulated from the basement joists running 120 degree water and it was still not enough heat. the guy runs his floor heat as main and if it cools below a certain amount the baseboard kicks in. the water is at 120 because of loses through the 3 floors he has. people usually don't know this but if you have a regular old or new case iron boiler and it is run to low for the radiant they wind up replacing the boiler in a few years because it rots out. if you change to a all radiant heat and run the boiler at 120 it is going to have to be replaced with a condensing boiler meant to run at that low temp. another customer his install was new works perfect except for his bathroom. he decided to put down tile and took up the linoleum and now his bath is cold. it's nice heat when it works.


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## maple1 (Aug 19, 2017)

Your boiler doesn't have to run at the same temps as your supply temps.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 20, 2017)

maple1 said:


> Your boiler doesn't have to run at the same temps as your supply temps.


Correct , you do need a mixer in this case to allow a small amount hot to mix with cold returning water to maintain the 90 deg feed temps. I think some are trying to run the boiler at low temp to forgo the need for a mixing system ,which may greatly shorten the lifespan of the boiler.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 20, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> I saw one a few years ago, daylight basement built into a hillside with floor to ceiling glass, then main floor with cathedral ceilings with glass from floor level up to the roof easily 2- 1/2 stories of glass. Only problem was the view was facing north
> The folks who bought it got a great bargain until the first winters heating bill.


First rule of thumb in building into a hillside ,if its heat your looking for choose a south facing hillside.


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