# 100 - 200 Amp service upgrade - Box in new circuit panel?



## Don2222 (Dec 28, 2014)

Hello

Well, since I could not fit another wire in the old 100 Amp Challenger Circuit Panel (Not the best panel we had since the 100 Mains melted one summer! LOL) we decided upon the very needed upgrade! To eliminate the birds nest and add whole house surge protection with a Generator Interlock and outlet, it is a welcome addition. Now the shed has the 30 amp breaker like it should.

See shed electrical
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...ld-i-use-10-3-uf-b-or-10-2-uf-b-and-is.76717/

I also wanted to throw in some current meters to see the draw, but that took an extra month to find some that were accurate enough to work!
See current meter finding!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...idential-circuit-panel-will-this-work.134234/

The old meter box and wires along the side of the house had to be changed as well as the circuit panel
The a new Eaton Cutler Hammer panel was installed with nipples to a panel meter box on the upper left side. The current transformers must be installed in the circuit panel box on the 2 mains. A 120v switched outlet with a 120vac to 12vac step down transformer to power the current monitor displays and circuitry on the lower left side.
The 30 Amp generator breaker must be installed in the top right next to the whole house surge protector breakers so the interlock slide works properly. 

There is a new ground rod on the outside now so if lightning hits the wires it will not travel into the house! I know it is more needed in Florida where the lightning is more fierce but still good to have here and is also in the new electrical codes!

Pic 1-4 Old Challenger Panel
Pic 5 - Old service head
Pic 6-7 Old meter socket and house wires
Pic 8-9 New outside wires and meter socket with ground rod going into the ground!


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## Don2222 (Dec 28, 2014)

More Pics

The interlock allows the home owner to select what circuits may be run on a generator! A nice inexpensive alternative to a transfer switch!

Pic 1 - Meter in new meter socket
Pic 2 - Doing a little wiring! Luckily the new box is good for 50 Breakers!
Pic 3-7 New 200 Amp 50 circuit cutler hammer panel Only 3 slots left in the new panel! LOL
Pic 8-10 New Generator socket outside of house. Socket is under overhang on the right side of the garage.


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## Don2222 (Dec 28, 2014)

Hello

Today, I added some needed new paint, Ashbury Sand color.

In case you ask? Yes this was inspected and accepted by the town inspector! 

*What is the best way to box this in with access?*

*Pic 1 - New panel
Pic 2 - New paint but wires are still exposed.
Pic 3 - Custom Current Meters*


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## seige101 (Dec 28, 2014)

I don't see any no alox on the wires in the meter socket or the wires to the main breaker


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## Don2222 (Dec 28, 2014)

seige101 said:


> I don't see any no alox on the wires in the meter socket or the wires to the main breaker



Hi, Good question. I will check with my lectric guy.
Is it used on Aluminum wires?


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## seige101 (Dec 28, 2014)

Required to be used on aluminum wires at any termination or splice


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## Don2222 (Dec 28, 2014)

seige101 said:


> Required to be used on aluminum wires at any termination or splice


Thanks, I will definately look into that!


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## Highbeam (Dec 29, 2014)

Your interlock label says a max of 10 single pole breakers. That's stupid enough but then says you can run a water heater which is obviously 240. That's a bad label written by somebody that doesn't understand electricity.

Enjoy the new panel.


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## Don2222 (Dec 29, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> Your interlock label says a max of 10 single pole breakers. That's stupid enough but then says you can run a water heater which is obviously 240. That's a bad label written by somebody that doesn't understand electricity.
> 
> Enjoy the new panel.


Thanks for pointing that out Highbeam.
If a good pure sine wave 30 amp generator like a Honda or Dewalt with a Honda engine is used then anything can be turned on as long as the total draw is less than 30 amps right?


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## Dougsey (Dec 29, 2014)

Hi Don, I have mine set up the same way with the interlock and also the exact same inlet box. 
It's the way to go because your entire panel has power. I can run everything except the oven and dryer.

Just don't exceed the capacity of your genny and you're all set. Also, pay attention to what leg your loads are on.... meaning you want to balance your higher 120v loads between the two legs. It's easy to fix that by moving the breaker to the other leg in the panel.


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## Don2222 (Dec 29, 2014)

Dougsey said:


> Hi Don, I have mine set up the same way with the interlock and also the exact same inlet box.
> It's the way to go because your entire panel has power. I can run everything except the oven and dryer.
> 
> Just don't exceed the capacity of your genny and you're all set. Also, pay attention to what leg your loads are on.... meaning you want to balance your higher 120v loads between the two legs. It's easy to fix that by moving the breaker to the other leg in the panel.



Hi Dougsey
Good idea about balancing the load. I did that when wiring all this stuff to my old 100 Amp panel which worked fine but was a little crowded! ! ! LOL


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## Highbeam (Dec 29, 2014)

Using a genset this way can take some thinking. You are certainly capable of it. Your 240 genset is rated for so many watts, let's just say 4000 for this example. Unless you have an inverter genset, each leg of the 240 output will be capable of 2000 watts when applied to 120 volt loads. You can dump all 4000 on a (or multiple) 240 load but if you throw in a 120 load at the same time you reduce the allowable 240 load by double the 120 load because that leg with the 120 load is the weak link of the 240 feed.

Another funny thing that almost all genset makers do is to only regulate voltage of the 240 so that the sum of the voltages on each leg adds up to 240. This is usually fine for 240 loads or for well balanced 120 loads but when you heavily load only one side of the panel you can get low voltage on one leg and high on the other.

The biggest trick I've run into is the fridges cycling. They are pretty quiet and automatic and once running they use low wattage but when they start up they can hammer the voltage on that leg of the panel.

 My little 3500 watt/240 genset runs computers, tvs, lights, fridges, and even the range cooktop just fine. Clean power needs are way overblown. You might notice a hum from your ceiling fan.


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## semipro (Dec 30, 2014)

Thanks for sharing Don. I plan to install a similar interlock on my panel when I connect my generator.
I believe the smaller gauge cables strung along the bottom of the floor joists require additional support per code?

Edit: I thought there were also code requirements for securing cables exiting the panel at a point outside the breaker panel but I'm not sure.  I'd like to know as some of mine are not secured now.


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## burnham (Dec 31, 2014)

seige101 said:


> I don't see any no alox on the wires in the meter socket or the wires to the main breaker



 I don't think that's required by code unless it's specified by either the wire or equipment manufacturer.  I always use inhibitor, but working for a utility I see a lot of guys not using any on new services and service changes.


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## Bret Chase (Jan 5, 2015)

Don2222 said:


> Hello
> 
> Today, I added some needed new paint, Ashbury Sand color.
> 
> ...



The only way to legally do it would be to pull the cover off the panel....
 cut a plywood panel (fire resistant, min 3/4") to fill the open space.. 
you'll have to do some titrivation with the outlet and phone...  
mount the plywood flush with the face of the pan...(screws would be a good idea for incidental access)...
buy a flushmount cover for the panel (you've got a surface mount cover)

you cannot per the NEC put the electrical panel in a cabinet.  it must be clear for 36" in front of it.


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## Don2222 (Jan 5, 2015)

semipro said:


> Thanks for sharing Don. I plan to install a similar interlock on my panel when I connect my generator.
> I believe the smaller gauge cables strung along the bottom of the floor joists require additional support per code?
> 
> Edit: I thought there were also code requirements for securing cables exiting the panel at a point outside the breaker panel but I'm not sure.  I'd like to know as some of mine are not secured now.


No they do not. This job was inspected and signed off!


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## Don2222 (Jan 5, 2015)

Bret Chase said:


> The only way to legally do it would be to pull the cover off the panel....
> cut a plywood panel (fire resistant, min 3/4") to fill the open space..
> you'll have to do some titrivation with the outlet and phone...
> mount the plywood flush with the face of the pan...(screws would be a good idea for incidental access)...
> ...


Thanks for the info. Can a flush mount cover be found easily?


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## Bret Chase (Jan 6, 2015)

Don2222 said:


> Thanks for the info. Can a flush mount cover be found easily?



yeah, you should be able to get one from Northeast Electrical Supply or Rockingham Electric with little problem.

wires *should* be secured within 6" of any box. that part really comes down to the inspector.  The ME state inspector for my area is a *real* stickler for it.

There was a NH req't for a dedicated light above the panel.... I got out of the project superintendent part of the game (HAAAAAAATED it.. just leave me alone and let me weld) just as NEC2011 compliant projects were coming into "the pipe"  It may have been dropped.. I dunno... 

Hell... I should probably go out and buy a NEC2014 edition of the Ugly's book.  My 2008 edition seems a bit out of date..


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## semipro (Jan 6, 2015)

Bret Chase said:


> wires *should* be secured within 6" of any box. that part really comes down to the inspector. The ME state inspector for my area is a *real* stickler for it.


Well, this made me curious to see exactly what the code says.  I found this clear reference.  I'm not sure the discrepancy between 6" and 12", probably code source or year. 

"334.30 Securing and Supporting. Nonmetallic-sheathed
cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties,
straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so
as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m
(41#8260;2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box,
junction box, cabinet, or fitting."


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## fbelec (Jan 18, 2015)

within 12 inches from a metal box and 4 inches from a plastic box. 12 inches from a panel. then every 4.5 feet if romex


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## Don2222 (May 17, 2015)

Hello

Please tell me if the calculations look right for this Sunday morning?

Using the current meters to monitor the draw. 
Power in watts = I (current) x V (volts)

Since we only have the TV and a Ceiling Fan and 1 desktop and 3 lap top computers on this morning:
Current draw this morning is
2.7 + 0.6 = 3.1 amps
P = 3.1 x 117 = 352.7 watts

Since the units used per month are based on time on the electric bill 1 unit is 1 Kilowatt Hour (KWH).
Example:
A 100 watt light bulb left on for 10 hours is 1,000 WH or 1 KWH = 1 unit on the electric bill

Our Electric Rate is 0.15487 dollars per KWH.
Divide by 100 to get approx 15 cents per Kilowatt Hour!

So if we only used 352.7 watts all day for 12 hours
352.7 x 12 = 4,232.4 watt hours or 4.2324 KWH

That would cost
4.2324 x 0.15487 = 0.65547 dollars or multiply 100 to get 65 cents!

This does not count all the other charges and surcharges though!


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## Swedishchef (May 17, 2015)

The math looks good to me Don!

Are you happy with your install? I need a transfer switch for my panel the next time I build a house...

Andrew


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## Don2222 (May 17, 2015)

Swedishchef said:


> The math looks good to me Don!
> 
> Are you happy with your install? I need a transfer switch for my panel the next time I build a house...
> 
> Andrew


Thanks
Yes, I like the slide interlock panel so no need for a transfer switch. Then I can turn on anything I need!


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## Swedishchef (May 17, 2015)

I am not the jealous type, but I am jealous of this install. lol

Andrew


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## Don2222 (May 17, 2015)

Swedishchef said:


> I am not the jealous type, but I am jealous of this install. lol
> 
> Andrew


I got the meters cheap off E-Bay!


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## jebatty (May 30, 2015)

Great post. I ordered two combination volt/current meters off *Bay, one for each leg on the main panel. Always wondered how evenly balanced my loads are.


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## Don2222 (May 30, 2015)

jebatty said:


> Great post. I ordered two combination volt/current meters off *Bay, one for each leg on the main panel. Always wondered how evenly balanced my loads are.



Very good, please post a pic when you get them in.


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## jebatty (Jun 29, 2015)

Finally got the meters installed. I needed to have an electrician do the main disconnect at the meter and install the current transformer (CT) coils around the L1 and L2 mains. The fit was tight, but the coils made it over the 200 amp mains. In the pictures you can see the orange CT on the mains and then the meters off to the left. Will be interesting to follow as we use power in the house to see how balanced our loads are. I think the only concern would be if one main was severely out of balance with the other main.


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## seige101 (Jun 29, 2015)

jebatty said:


> .
> View attachment 159238



That is a scary install.


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## Don2222 (Jun 29, 2015)

jebatty said:


> Finally got the meters installed. I needed to have an electrician do the main disconnect at the meter and install the current transformer (CT) coils around the L1 and L2 mains. The fit was tight, but the coils made it over the 200 amp mains. In the pictures you can see the orange CT on the mains and then the meters off to the left. Will be interesting to follow as we use power in the house to see how balanced our loads are. I think the only concern would be if one main was severely out of balance with the other main.
> View attachment 159238


Excellent! The wires going to the meters are low current by using the CTs. My electrician put them in pipe for the local codes but that may be overkill. I see the 120 VAC on the meters but is there a current draw! I cannot see it.
Also are you going to put a switch in turn off the meters display to save electricity and have the meter's display last longer?


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## jebatty (Jun 29, 2015)

The CT wires are probably 20 or 22 gauge, very thin. The 120VAC power leads on the meters likely also are 20 gauge. Current draw is very small for the two LED meters. A switch is a good idea and would be easy to add.

The meters have a current draw but I doubt that draw would even register on the meters. The draw on the mains from active electrical circuits in the house do not show up with the camera flash. I'll try another picture without a flash and see if the meter displays show.

The panel looks scary but really isn't. Much of the wiring is to/from a 10 circuit generator transfer switch not shown, so lots of extra wires.


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## jebatty (Jun 30, 2015)

A better picture of the meter display, along with the wall cabinet that houses the 200A main panel, an additional 100A panel for electric baseboard and hot water heating circuits, 30A generator transfer switch, and telephone/DSL entry box.


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## Don2222 (Jun 30, 2015)

Nice pics and good job! ! !


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## jebatty (Jul 1, 2015)

Last night, when everything was "off," no fridge or freezer compressor running, computer/entertainment center shut down completely, but other electric things remaining plugged in and "off" by their own switches, and the phone/DSL remained "on," the meters showed 0.2-0.3 amps draw on each main. That's equivalent to about 35x2=70 watts still being consumed. If that is my minimum watt draw without unplugging everything, annual minimum electric usage would be 70x24x365=61.3 kwh, and at my current electric rate that amounts to about $7/yr, or about $0.60/mo.

In another context, 61 kwh is about the average daily production of my solar PV system during June - August.


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## Don2222 (Jul 1, 2015)

jebatty said:


> Last night, when everything was "off," no fridge or freezer compressor running, computer/entertainment center shut down completely, but other electric things remaining plugged in and "off" by their own switches, and the phone/DSL remained "on," the meters showed 0.2-0.3 amps draw on each main. That's equivalent to about 35x2=70 watts still being consumed. If that is my minimum watt draw without unplugging everything, annual minimum electric usage would be 70x24x365=61.3 kwh, and at my current electric rate that amounts to about $7/yr, or about $0.60/mo.
> 
> In another context, 61 kwh is about the average daily production of my solar PV system during June - August.


Wow maybe we should shut the main breakers off when we go to bed at night? LOL


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