# Li Battery progress



## begreen (Oct 26, 2012)

CalBattery is reporting tripling battery capacity and a reduction in cost of 70% for lithium ion batteries with their graphene anode. This could be a nice industry disrupter, especially in the electric vehicle market.

http://www.clbattery.com/#!advanced-technology/vstc1=vlf-battery-form-factor


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 27, 2012)

Precisely why i think leasing is a good strategy right now for an electric car,once that lease is up it may be a whole new ball game. If you already own the car it may well drop a lot of value in the face of new tech.


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## begreen (Oct 27, 2012)

Then why bother getting an electric car at all right now? Maybe better to just wait?


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## btuser (Oct 27, 2012)

3x the storage AND a 70% reduction in cost?  I'm guessing they're counting it twice.  Still, 1/3 reduction in weight would be the "it" everyone is looking for.  

You may not have to wait, or if you buy now you may be trading your battery in 5 years. It looks like they're confident that it's going to be good/quick/cheap enough for "drop in" replacements. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/10/calbattery-20121026.html utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+greencarcongress%2FTrBK+(Green+Car+Congress)

_We believe that our new advanced silicon graphene anode composite material is so good in terms of specific capacity and extended cycle life that it will become a graphite anode “drop-in” replacement material for anodes in most lithium-ion batteries over the next 2-3 years_


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## begreen (Oct 27, 2012)

Yes, I saw that. I think they meant 3X storage providing a 70% cost reduction per KW over current anode technology.

That drop-in replacement statement was what got my attention. If this can be done in current manufacturing setups without major retooling it could be a game changer. Sure hope so!


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 27, 2012)

begreen said:


> Then why bother getting an electric car at all right now? Maybe better to just wait?


The value is still there considering the $7500 rebate may not be in 3 years. Also if you can lease for $250 and save $100+  a month on fuel costs. Thats pretty cheap to drive a new car.


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## btuser (Oct 27, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The value is still there considering the $7500 rebate may not be in 3 years. Also if you can lease for $250 and save $100+ a month on fuel costs. That's pretty cheap to drive a new car.


If you look at what this could do for the Volt, or any plug-in hypbrid it's really a tantalizing prospect.  Instead of 40 miles on a charge you go to 120, so instead of 40-50% of your trips you could do 80% or more.  With that much more range, you could down size the combustion engine because you wouldn't really need an engine/generator with enough current to push the car on it's own like the Volt).   Program your destination and return time and the engine would turn on at the right time to extend range.  

Or you could dump the idea of hybrid and go full electric.    I'm sure Tesla would love to sell the option of a 1000 miles in between charges.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 27, 2012)

begreen said:


> Maybe better to just wait?


If you awaited for better tech you would never buy anything. As tech is always getting better.


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## begreen (Oct 27, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The value is still there considering the $7500 rebate may not be in 3 years. Also if you can lease for $250 and save $100+ a month on fuel costs. Thats pretty cheap to drive a new car.


 
That's the decider. Do you really need a new car? I think I will continue to drive our paid for, 6 yr old Prius until there is a clear advantage to upgrade. This anode change might be the decider, but I could also just add a battery pack using this technology. I certainly don't need a new car every 3 yrs..


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 28, 2012)

I think its  a big waste of a huge market to concentrate on new cars only. They could do conversions right now for so much less. If you take that $7500 rebate toward a conversion you would pay for most of it. Conversions would also allow upgrades as the tech allows. Could also put thousands if not millions of people to work converting cars and trucks from gas to electric or CNG.


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## btuser (Oct 28, 2012)

Tesla's model S has a battery pack that sits like a pan under the car.  I've heard it can be exchanged in a ridiculously short amount of time (like 15 minutes) and that setups like propane exchange could be possible.  Even if it took an hour, that's still pretty sick.  But I'd hate to be the guy with 30 million dollars worth of battery packs sitting on the shelves, and then find out there's a much better pack.


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## midwestcoast (Oct 29, 2012)

So they are further along in development with this than the folks working on the Tin-based anode you posted about several months ago BG?
If I remember correctly (unlikely ) they were making similar claims: tripled capacity, lower cost, faster charging capabilities...


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## begreen (Oct 29, 2012)

That's the big question for sure. Over the years I have seen many new ideas introduced. But few make it to final market. This sometimes due to poor business mgmt, but more importantly they not only have to prove their performance, they have to also be durable and yet still cost effective. Companies like Toyota are very conservative about battery technology. They want to be sure that their product exceeds safety and performance standards in every way possible.


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## midwestcoast (Oct 29, 2012)

I guess regardless of whether graphene anode batteries, tin, or one of the likely many others in development that we haven't heard of actually makes it to market, the writting is on the wall. Batteries will make a big leap as we've been waiting for & it'll likely be quite soon. 
Awesome. My smart phone can get slightly smaller & run for a whole day 
Seriously, odds on that being the first application making it to market.  Then we start getting the EV's, hybrid upgrades,  on and off-grid power storage & all that.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 29, 2012)

Seems like GM has the best battery out there so far,not having issue anything like nissan. Nissans batteries  are dying from heat exaustion.


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## begreen (Oct 30, 2012)

Haven't heard of any serious Prius battery issues. Have you? How is the Ford Focus battery?


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 30, 2012)

begreen said:


> Haven't heard of any serious Prius battery issues. Have you? How is the Ford Focus battery?


Seems like nissan has all the problems. Owners in hot areas are experiencing greatly accelerated battery range depletion.


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## begreen (Oct 30, 2012)

So perhaps the more correct statement would not be that GM has the best battery, but that Nissan has some issues.

Are you a GM sales person? Not meaning to get personal, but you do seem to push the Volt. Do you own one?


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 31, 2012)

No but i am seriously considering buying one. I should have said GM has the best large format car battery.  There are a number of good smaller hybrid ones around. Toyota had a very good one in their 2002 ev-rav4 til chevron bought out the patent.
I dont work for GM but have been driving and owning GM for about 40 years with excellent results. Mostly trucks lately. The only reason i dont already own a volt is my work vehicle is a truck. I dont commute,and have a van for a family vehicle.
Most family use involve 5 or more people. My gasoline expense is relatively small. I follow a volt blog www.gm-volt.com ,volt owners with few exceptions are extremely happy with their purchase.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 31, 2012)

begreen said:


> That's the decider. Do you really need a new car? I think I will continue to drive our paid for, 6 yr old Prius until there is a clear advantage to upgrade. This anode change might be the decider, but I could also just add a battery pack using this technology. I certainly don't need a new car every 3 yrs..


IN your case you would not be saving a huge amount on gas since you already get excellent MPG. Until you want to transition to zero gas for most of your driving your getting good value out of a paid for prius.


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## Slow1 (Oct 31, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Most family use involve 5 or more people.


 
That is the key deal killer for me with regards to the Volt.  I just can't justify purchasing a vehicle that won't carry 5 people when I anticipate needing to take 4 kids to school within the next 3 years - part of my 'normal' driving routine.  I really wish they had come up with a way to keep the back seat a 3-wide configuration.  I like that car quite a bit otherwise.

Anyway - back to the point.  IF this battery tech (or other leaps promised in the labs) pans out in the real markets in the next few years that would be great.  Whatever the case, it is good to see that the research is alive and well in many research institutions and progress of some sort is being made.  That gives me hope that indeed some breakthroughs are likely to happen.  I would like it to be available in the market before our need to purchase a new car (approx 5 years) but I'm not holding my breath as it is a long road from lab proof of concept to production vehicles.


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## Treacherous (Nov 4, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Seems like nissan has all the problems. Owners in hot areas are experiencing greatly accelerated battery range depletion.


 
Looks like Nissan's are made with partner NEC.

"LG Chem of Seoul makes a battery that powers General Motors' Chevrolet Volt; NEC of Tokyo collaborates with Nissan to make batteries for the LEAF; and Panasonic in Kodama, Japan, manufactures batteries for the Toyota Prius."


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## begreen (Nov 4, 2012)

I think CalBattery's tech is going to be a game changer. There will be other developments for sure, but for now, they have raised the bar. Good to see this development coming from the US.


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