# Got a leaf (the car, not from a tree)



## Slow1 (Jun 24, 2014)

I've been debating this for the last few years actually, but finally pulled the trigger last Saturday as the dealer had a 2013 model that they wanted gone (good deal) plus MA just passed a new $2500 rebate for electric cars - Thank you other MA residents!  

Anyway - it is a lot more fun to drive than some would think.  Good zip - more than the Hyundai Accent (2006 model with 110K miles)  it replaced.  Lots of good safety features missing in the Accent too - side airbags etc.  Kids like it as they have a bit more space in the back seat (a bit wider it seems, but I didn't measure).

Only a few days into it, but the range (someone will ask I'm sure) is somewhere above 74 miles as my wife drove that far on Sunday (round trip).  While she received low battery warnings, she made it home without going into "turtle mode".   Not exactly the 80 miles they suggest in literature, but driving styles are a bit part of that just like gas MPG ratings.  I've been told that if we pay attention to the 

I am enjoying driving it knowing that it is powered by my solar panels - have a bit of a credit from overproduction the last few years so I estimate I'll be getting my first 2500 or so miles out of that credit... then have to evaluate if this is enough justification to add more panels (and how many would be needed)...

Anyway, just sharing - if any other Leaf owners are out there, would be happy to discuss   Anyone considering one I'll share what I learn....


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## mass_burner (Jun 24, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> I've been debating this for the last few years actually, but finally pulled the trigger last Saturday as the dealer had a 2013 model that they wanted gone (good deal) plus MA just passed a new $2500 rebate for electric cars - Thank you other MA residents!
> 
> Anyway - it is a lot more fun to drive than some would think.  Good zip - more than the Hyundai Accent (2006 model with 110K miles)  it replaced.  Lots of good safety features missing in the Accent too - side airbags etc.  Kids like it as they have a bit more space in the back seat (a bit wider it seems, but I didn't measure).
> 
> ...



thanks for sharing. i have an '04 prius and was looking into all electric or electric/gas model. did you need to install a special plug? if so, how much did it cost? does the leaf has gas mode? how much electricity does it take to top off the battery?


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## Slow1 (Jun 24, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> thanks for sharing. i have an '04 prius and was looking into all electric or electric/gas model. did you need to install a special plug? if so, how much did it cost? does the leaf has gas mode? how much electricity does it take to top off the battery?



Plug: Well, not yet but I expect to eventually - the trickle charger it came with pulls off a normal household plug (had a couple in the garage already) but for safety reasons it can only pull 10amp from that plug which translates into about 1.2Kw.  I do plan to add a 240v40a plug (same plug as you would have for an electric dryer), I don't have a quote yet on that.  IF/when I do that I can add a new "level 2 charger" (not really a charger, more of a current management device) and it will be able to push the full 6.6kw that the car can handle.

Leaf is pure electric, no gas mode.  The battery is 24Kwh so if you are at 50% it would take a nominal 12Kwh to top it off (plus a bit for transfer/charging losses - aka heat generated in the process).

My wife wants to wait and see if our driving pattern will allow us to just use the trickle charger (she doesn't want to spend an additional $650+Install).  Odd enough I am expecting that we may well be able to do this and not be overly inconvenienced.  I anticipate that we'll normally drive about 40-45 miles on average which should be about 1/2 charge which although it may take 10-12 hrs on trickle, we have all night to let it charge.  On occasions where we need more we can just drive over to one of the local charging stations (one at the Nissan dealership, another at a local restaurant) and give it a boost if we so desire - it will take a scenario where we need to do high mileage in consecutive days - nothing says it has to be fully charged every time you use it.

I will likely compromise and get the 240v plug installed anyway so that if/when we want to get the Level2 device we will only be limited by the amount of time it takes to ship to us.  I'd like to have it just in case, but maybe it is just my own irrational desire to charge quickly at home.


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## mass_burner (Jun 24, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> it will take a scenario where we need to do high mileage in consecutive days



like a 2+ day trip.


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## mass_burner (Jun 24, 2014)

my fear would be forgetting to plug it in, then driving to work and not being able to make it to or find a charging station.


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## Slow1 (Jun 24, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> like a 2+ day trip.



I don't see this vehicle as a "2 day trip" option.  If I travel, I want to go more than 80 miles at a time.  I suppose if I was going overnight somewhere close that could come into play, but IF I chose to take this car then I'd have to plan ahead to find suitable charging.... again, not really what I bought it for.


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## Slow1 (Jun 24, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> my fear would be forgetting to plug it in, then driving to work and not being able to make it to or find a charging station.



Yeah, I wonder if the habit will develop while I'm excited about it and then I'll manage to keep it up...  Right now my problem is that I keep getting in and leaving the charging port hanging open.


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## mass_burner (Jun 24, 2014)

i have many charging stations here at car dealers, do they charge to charge your car?  (that was awkward)


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## woodgeek (Jun 25, 2014)

The price of EVSE's is falling rapidly, so it makes sense to wait if you can.  Portable ones with a 240VAC plug are available (my ideal), but are still quite spendy, and not available over 3.3 kW.  The install was not hard, if you are comfortable making a new breaker branch.

I did mine b/c I wanted to be able to do fast top offs.  The wife can finish her work commute, and then be fully recharged in the time it takes her to get dressed for us to go for the evening in the city (which is another 40 mi highway round trip).   When the charging is so fast, no mental calculation required, plug it in and it is 100% ready to go again when you are.


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## jebatty (Jun 25, 2014)

Probably won't be long before you just drive up to a docking station in your garage or elsewhere and automatically connect; also will automatically charge your credit card or bank account! The perfect marriage might be EV + PV.


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## woodgeek (Jun 25, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> i have many charging stations here at car dealers, do they charge to charge your car?  (that was awkward)



AFAIK, Nissan offers free high-speed (L3) charging....20 minutes from 0 to 80% at many of their dealerships (still <500 nationwide)

They also have an incentive for 2 years of *free* charging at most public L2 chargers (>10,000 nationwide), for recent/new buyers/leasees like Slow and me.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...e-card-to-let-leafs-recharge-on-four-networks

IIRC, one of the networks dropped out, but I think they are still free to leaf drivers.


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## Slow1 (Jun 26, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> i have many charging stations here at car dealers, do they charge to charge your car? (that was awkward)



They appear to be free so far as I can tell - I know our local Nissan place doesn't even have a card to swipe, just plug and be happy.  It seems (based on reading notes on plugshare.com) that there is quite a variance on this, even within same brand of dealer.  My local seems to be the easiest, other end of the range is to have limited hours (only when open) and, if reports are correct, some require authorization and blocked charger issues may be met with indifference or worse.  I've only used my local Nissan dealer (where I bought the car) and it has been a very positive experience.




woodgeek said:


> The price of EVSE's is falling rapidly, so it makes sense to wait if you can. Portable ones with a 240VAC plug are available (my ideal), but are still quite spendy, and not available over 3.3 kW. The install was not hard, if you are comfortable making a new breaker branch.



I was looking at this one: http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-40p-30a-240v-charging-25-cord-nema-14-50-plug/ which appears to be 6.6Kw and reasonably portable... it has a plug at least   But at $650 plus cost of plug install my wife still wants to hold off...

This week was a good week to play with the car.  My wife is taking the kids to a vacation bible school that is about 75 miles round trip.  She has been taking the Leaf every other day - if we had the L2 available she could have done it every day in theory, but I had to get it inspected one day and she had other errands to run another so that is the way it is working for us.



woodgeek said:


> They also have an incentive for 2 years of free charging at most public L2 chargers (>10,000 nationwide), for recent/new buyers/leasees like Slow and me.



I ran into this as well, but it appears to only be in 'limited' markets, my area not being one of them (rats).  In our case this would have limited value I expect anyway since our usage pattern should rarely suggest a charge other than home.  As much as I like it, even if there were L3/DC stations available, I don't want to sit for 30 minutes every 60 miles of driving if on a long trip.  Also, it seems that there must be some sort of subsidy going on as I have found free chargers scattered around here - you have to sign up for the chargepoint network (no cost) and swipe your card (RFID?) but actual use appears to be free for the most part around here.

If I get my chargepoint card in time, I am considering using the Leaf to run to the airport this Saturday.  It is 42 miles one way so minimum 84 R/t which after considering incidental driving in airport and range penalty for being on highway I expect I need to charge.  They have a good number of stations at Logan Airport, just an extra 30-60 minutes at 6.6Kw should give me more than enough to get home... but my fear is that the chargepoint network may refuse to let me draw (better do a POC test on a local one first I guess).


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## begreen (Jun 26, 2014)

Just catching up after a short camping trip and I saw this. Congratulations on the new wheels. Mileage range will vary with the terrain, temperature, and the driver.


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## CaptSpiff (Jun 27, 2014)

Here's a 38 minute video about driving the LEAF. I know,.. that sounds awful! But it's actually a pretty good conversation.


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## mass_burner (Jun 27, 2014)

quick questions. 

1. can the stored power in the leaf's batteries be used to power other items like a fridge, fan, radio etc?
2. can the leaf be recharged by a generator?


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## Slow1 (Jun 27, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> quick questions.
> 
> 1. can the stored power in the leaf's batteries be used to power other items like a fridge, fan, radio etc?
> 2. can the leaf be recharged by a generator?



1. Not by default in the US. I did read a bit about some sort of option in other countries.  In theory it should be possible.
2. I wondered about this too - from my reading it is possible but one has to do some tricks to resolve grounding issues.  I didn't dig deeper than that yet.


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## woodgeek (Jun 27, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> 1. Not by default in the US. I did read a bit about some sort of option in other countries.  In theory it should be possible.
> 2. I wondered about this too - from my reading it is possible but one has to do some tricks to resolve grounding issues.  I didn't dig deeper than that yet.



1. Nope.  I suppose you could run small things off the 12V system if the car was left 'on' (which would be ok inside a garage), since the traction battery recharges the 12V.  Ultimately, you would be able to access up to the 24 kWh stored in the traction battery. I'd have to research, but this might be handy at the <100W sustained level. Maybe my wifi or a insert blower??  At 100W, that would be over a week of runtime.

2. I don't see why the 120V EVSE couldn't be run off a genny, provided it could handle 1.3 kW sustained (not my Harbor Fright dealio).


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## mass_burner (Jun 27, 2014)

> 1. can the stored power in the leaf's batteries be used to power other items like a fridge, fan, radio etc?



right now I get ~1200W from my '04 Prius 12V through a 1500W inverter. why wouldn't this be the same?


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## Slow1 (Jun 27, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> right now I get ~1200W from my '04 Prius 12V through a 1500W inverter. why wouldn't this be the same?



I bet it is very similar.  The other method I talked about is an actual charging station that can run in two directions - using the car battery as a whole house backup system.


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## mass_burner (Jun 27, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> I bet it is very similar.  The other method I talked about is an actual charging station that can run in two directions - using the car battery as a whole house backup system.



I already have a cord going from my garage entrance up through the floor to the rear of the fridge. I slide out the fridge, swap plugs and am back in business. We have NG range, so 1200W is fine for us. Also, the fridge doesn't run constantly. I guess pretty much the same setup would work with the EV.


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## mass_burner (Jun 27, 2014)

if you don't mind me asking, what was your customer cash amount?


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## begreen (Jun 27, 2014)

There are some technical issues that depend on how the car and battery systems are designed and where one taps into this power. Electric auto mfgs would prefer you not tap into the main battery due to the risk, but it is done by some using a 240V UPS in the case of the Prius. Some cars like the Volt charge the 12v system off of the main battery. That allows one to put a modest 1.5 KW inverter on the 12v system and let the car run the genset when it needs to bring up the main battery charge. I'm told one can run several days like that with a full tank. Looks like the Leaf may be used similarly according to this post:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13097

If you have the bucks, Nissan may have a more elegant solution. I don't know if this is on the US  market yet but Leaf owners might want to inquire. I like it:
http://venturebeat.com/2012/06/18/nissan-leaf-power-station/

FWIW, I use a propane/gas generator instead.


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## Slow1 (Jun 27, 2014)

begreen said:


> If you have the bucks, Nissan may have a more elegant solution. I don't know if this is on the US market yet but Leaf owners might want to inquire. I like it:
> http://venturebeat.com/2012/06/18/nissan-leaf-power-station/



That's it!  I read that too, but it is only in Japan, I do wonder why they don't make it available in the US as well.  Then again, such things could shut down the "free to charge" stations in the USA.  I could just see folks going to work/whatever and charging the car just to use the power at night and then charge again the next day.  If you had a short range to where you were driving it just might work (we use like 16kwh/day so that is well within possibilities for us).




mass_burner said:


> if you don't mind me asking, what was your customer cash amount?



The finances worked out like this for me:  Sticker was about 31K, then I received $3500 for using their financing (is that the "customer cash?"), then I received a $1K discount through their EPP arrangement with the company I work for.  Add in another bit of discount just because we all know they don't sell at MSRP anyway and my final price worked out to be about 26K, Stick my trade in (3K) and add in all the taxes/fees etc, and the walk out price was $23,980.  Now I still will get the federal $7.5K and a state $2.5 rebate in the next year which brings my final cost to just a bit under $14K for the new car.  That is about what I would pay for a similar sized ICE car new I believe so really my only "electric premium" ends up being the range limitation which I really am getting less concerned about with each day we own it.


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## mass_burner (Jun 27, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> The finances worked out like this for me:  Sticker was about 31K, then I received $3500 for using their financing (is that the "customer cash?"), then I received a $1K discount through their EPP arrangement with the company I work for.  Add in another bit of discount just because we all know they don't sell at MSRP anyway and my final price worked out to be about 26K, Stick my trade in (3K) and add in all the taxes/fees etc, and the walk out price was $23,980.  Now I still will get the federal $7.5K and a state $2.5 rebate in the next year which brings my final cost to just a bit under $14K for the new car.  That is about what I would pay for a similar sized ICE car new I believe so really my only "electric premium" ends up being the range limitation which I really am getting less concerned about with each day we own it.



oh, I'm looking at the lease option.


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## Slow1 (Jun 27, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> oh, I'm looking at the lease option.



I considered the lease, generally have a negative bias against them I have to admit, but due to anxiety over battery tech etc I did give it a serious thought.  In the end the finances made it for me - incentives were better for the purchase option for me.  Based on the offers I saw, it seems that at the end of 3 years I would have paid out only about 3-4k less than I am this way.  Whatever happens to battery tech in that time I have to imagine the car will be worth at least that in 3 years...  

With 8 year/100K battery warranty I also figure the battery being 'worthless' in the car won't happen until after the gas savings have practically paid for it.  I figure that at 100K miles I will have saved over $10K compared to the 30mpg car I traded in.  Of course I doubt I'll reach 100K as fast... then again we'll have put over 500 miles on it this first week (unusual week I'm sure).


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## woodgeek (Jun 28, 2014)

The backup power options for the leaf look a lot like the Prius and the Volt.  Turn car 'on', and pull power off the 12V accessory line. This can either be simple....plug a small inverter into the 12V power outlet (fused at 10A or 120W), or clip a bigger inverter onto the battery under the hood, and get up to 1.7 kW of continuous power, with a higher surge rating due to the 12V battery buffering.  Say 1.5 kW continuous and 2 kW surge is completely aok.  Of course an inverter that size needs good connections and 100A wiring.

Obviously, the Leaf can only deliver ~20 kWh total, but that could run my fridge, an insert blower, wifi, a couple lights and our small electronics for ~4 days.  The plug-in hybrids could go longer (or forever if refueled), but you would have to worry about leaving the whole thing in a garage.  Alternatively, every four days I can drive over to the Nissan dealership and pick up another 20 kWh in 30 minutes.


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## woodgeek (Jun 28, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> That's it!  I read that too, but it is only in Japan, I do wonder why they don't make it available in the US as well.  Then again, such things could shut down the "free to charge" stations in the USA.  I could just see folks going to work/whatever and charging the car just to use the power at night and then charge again the next day.  If you had a short range to where you were driving it just might work (we use like 16kwh/day so that is well within possibilities for us).



The rub is the battery cost....if the battery is good for 1000 cycles of 20 kWh depth, that is 20,000 kWh.  If a replacement battery costs $5k (it may be more currently), that works out to a lifecycle cost of $0.25 per kWh for that 'free' electricity.  The 2013 and later Leaf batteries are supposed to have better endurance than the earlier models (yay), but I don't think I will be shuttling a lot of electrons except in an emergency like a long blackout.


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## mass_burner (Jun 28, 2014)

You know there is a company in NH I believe that will install a second battery and a charging port for a Prius hybrid. When you deplete the battery, it goes back to hybrid.


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## woodgeek (Jun 28, 2014)

Why not just get the plug-in Prius from Toyota?


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## mass_burner (Jun 28, 2014)

I already own outright my '04. I would be saving $100/ month on gas. Depends on how much the extra battery installation cost. I don't have any payments now and spend $100/month on gas. My plan was selling the Prius to a family member and using that for the lease cash down. Then my cost would roughly $100/month more at $199/month, minus $100 for gas/month. This would all be business deductible and the depreciation is more attractive for a lease.


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## woodgeek (Jul 10, 2014)

In welcome news, it looks like the 'free 2 years to charge' thingy is back.

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/07/09/nissans-no-charge-to-charge-incentive-for-leaf-sales/

This allows all recent Leaf buyers/lessees to get a single card that talks to the 4 biggest charger networks in the US, and Nissan picks up the bill too.  So one card to rule them all, never pay for a charge.

One of the biggest networks, ChargePoint, had threatened to pull out, making the program a lot less attractive.  AS of yesterday they are back in.  The first cards were supposed to be mailed out July 1. 

With a May Purchase, I should be grandfathered, might have to call them to get a card sent.  I will still charge mostly at home, but I might now mess around with some other chargers, if they are not charging me $2-5 per charge for $0.50 of juice.


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## Slow1 (Jul 10, 2014)

Well, if you happen to be in one of the "select" markets good for you!  heh.  I don't think it will matter much to me here - we're not in their markets.  Even if we were I'm not sure it would be exciting to me as most chargers in my range are free already (and on Chargepoint which I picked up a free card for to boot).  Ironically the only charger that has a cost that I may ever use is the one at my place of work!  Apparently they felt a need to put a $1/hr charge on the EV parking spots to "encourage people to free up the space for others to us"... Hmm... well, so far I've not actually seen anyone charge and only have heard of one person who tried it just to see how it worked.

Charging is a factor for folks I'm sure.  I bought with the plan of charging at home 99% of the time and only treating public chargers as emergency backup.  The exception to this being going to the airport - there I am glad they have several chargers (no additional cost over the standard parking cost) so I can go and return with a comfortable margin in range.


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## woodgeek (Jul 11, 2014)

Well, with the MA cash back on EVs, I suspect you will be a Leaf hotspot soon enough.  I'm on the Cape now, and have already spotted a black Leaf.

I thought the 'free charging' was nationwide, not only in some regions? 

Looks like they have added a few more Chademo stations in NJ, so I might now be able to use my leaf for one of my frequent trips to NYC.  Now I've got one 70 highway miles from my house, but close to NYC, and another closer to Philly but 70 miles from NYC.  So I could stop at both for 10 minutes.....


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## Slow1 (Jul 11, 2014)

Well, I now have a 40amp plug in my garage - time to make a final decision on my EVSE for home, more choices out there than I realized before.  At the moment I'm leaning very strong toward just upgrading the default one (via evseupgrade).  Seems folks are happy with theirs.  Not quite up to full 6kw charging with this option but still much faster than my current home situation....  What did you do Woodgeek?


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## woodgeek (Jul 11, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> Well, I now have a 40amp plug in my garage - time to make a final decision on my EVSE for home, more choices out there than I realized before.  At the moment I'm leaning very strong toward just upgrading the default one (via evseupgrade).  Seems folks are happy with theirs.  Not quite up to full 6kw charging with this option but still much faster than my current home situation....  What did you do Woodgeek?



I went for a 7kW Bosch unit that listed for $500 from amazon.  If you want portable, the EVSE upgrade idea seems like a deal.  As a leasee, I can't do that.


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## mass_burner (Jul 12, 2014)

Nissan dealer emailed me to ask about the offer they made. I said I am shopping around. He asked what I wanted for terms. I said no more than 1k down and $199/ month for an SL. Decided leather seats were a must. He said he would work on it.


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## woodgeek (Jul 12, 2014)

I'd never get that in PA, but I think you have a shot with the MA incentive.


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## woodgeek (Jul 12, 2014)

One complaint from the wife is the lousy/dark high-beams on the Leaf. The stock ones are 65W halogen, with badly done reflectors.  I am looking at a plug and play replacement with 55W HID lamps for ~$90.  Should get 3x the lumens, with some loss of focus.


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## mass_burner (Jul 12, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> One complaint from the wife is the lousy/dark high-beams on the Leaf. The stock ones are 65W halogen, with badly done reflectors.  I am looking at a plug and play replacement with 55W HID lamps for ~$90.  Should get 3x the lumens, with some loss of focus.


wife has her own car, this would be a company car lease.


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## mass_burner (Jul 12, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I'd never get that in PA, but I think you have a shot with the MA incentive.


sorry, I'm leasing,so no incentive.


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## woodgeek (Jul 12, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> sorry, I'm leasing,so no incentive.



The incentives go to the dealer, and are reflected in your lease rate.


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## Slow1 (Jul 12, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> The incentives go to the dealer, and are reflected in your lease rate.



The Mass incentive goes to the owner I believe.  IF your lease is at least 3 years you qualify - I don't think dealers have really gotten their heads wrapped around this one.

https://mor-ev.org/

*Are leased vehicles eligible for the program?*
Leased vehicles are required to have lease terms of at least 36 months to be eligible for the program.

Note that the entire application process is owner/leasee oriented.  I could be wrong about rebate being assigned to dealer, but it looks a bit difficult.  Unless they say "you owe $2500 in 3 months" or somesuch.


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## woodgeek (Jul 12, 2014)

My 7500 fed rebate went to my dealer, and reduced the amount of my lease by the corresponding amount. Apparently the MA lease is administered differently somehow.

FYI the $2k 200/mo deal for the Model S includes the fed rebate to the dealer.


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## Slow1 (Jul 12, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> My 7500 fed rebate went to my dealer, and reduced the amount of my lease by the corresponding amount. Apparently the MA lease is administered differently somehow.
> 
> FYI the $2k 200/mo deal for the Model S includes the fed rebate to the dealer.




Yes they are different.  Fed is a tax rebate, MA is a rebate administered out of a fund from the DOER - it actually has a limited amount (enough for about 800 rebates), will be interesting to see how fast it is used up, apparently about 10% is reserved as of today.  I may be wrong - there may be a way to incorporate it into the leases, just not sure at this point.


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## woodgeek (Jul 13, 2014)

Slow1 said:


> Yes they are different.  Fed is a tax rebate, MA is a rebate administered out of a fund from the DOER - it actually has a limited amount (enough for about 800 rebates), will be interesting to see how fast it is used up, apparently about 10% is reserved as of today.  I may be wrong - there may be a way to incorporate it into the leases, just not sure at this point.



Don't get me wrong, I love my birthstate, MA, but 800 rebates?  Oy.  Let's crunch the numbers.  In 2013 total US sales for all EVs and Plug-ins were ~100,000.  MA has 2% of the US population.  If folks there bought such vehicles at the same rate as elsewhere in the US, they would buy 2,000 vehicles a year that are eligible for the MA rebate.  So, to get folks to buy more EV/PHVs in MA, they incentivize 40% of expected organic sales in the last year?

I suppose this makes sense if MA folks were not buying thee vehicles at rates anywhere near those of the rest of the country, which would be pretty sad with all the lip service they give to environmentalism.  Otherwise, I don't see how the incentive will lead to more sales....the money will go to 40% of folks that would have bought one anyway.

In other EV news....

my niece was all excited that my nephew got his first car, and that he got an 'EV-hybrid'-thing.  But he actually got a PZEV subaru impreza.  Which is a fine, cheap first car with an upgraded catalytic converter and no hybrid tech whatsoever.  As someone who drives a zero emission vehicle, a ZEV, the whole 'partial zero emisson' PZEV emblem on the subarus make me steamed.  I don't think my niece is the only one confused....I think folks think these subarus are hybrids or plugins, rather than being conventional cars with below average mpg. 

My dad recently rented a ford fusion hybrid, and he and my bro were *very* impressed.  Dad said it was basically silent, instant acceleration and no shifting lurches. Turns out it has a CVT/hybrid drivetrain from the same subcontractor that does the Prius, and Dad had been experiencing electric drive for the first time.  He and bro had figured that it was some super luxury car that must cost $50k.  I told them it was a $27k MSRP sedan with a Prius drivetrain.  The minds were slightly blown.

Dad also reported that the Fusion had an in dash display that told him 'You're getting stressed, maybe you should pull over and get a coffee'.  The car does this about every 10 minutes, using a variety of different wordings.  He and mom were in stitches about this all the way from the airport.


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## Slow1 (Jul 13, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> the money will go to 40% of folks that would have bought one anyway.



Well, I have to say that I bought based on this rebate - had it not happened (as well as the Nissan $3500 incentive) I would have remained on the fence for who knows how long.  So in one case here it did make a difference.  I also can see where my buying one may increase EV sales as others I've talked to now are getting interested - guess sprinkling them around can help drive acceptance.


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## woodgeek (Jul 13, 2014)

or your friends and neighbors will merely end up 'on the fence' too until the MA incentive gets recharged next year....


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## Slow1 (Jul 13, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> or your friends and neighbors will merely end up 'on the fence' too until the MA incentive gets recharged next year....



Ha - perhaps so.  However as of now only 10% of that fund has been claimed...  They have some time yet.  I'm sure others are also eager to see how the car works out long term.  That is my only real range anxiety - what range will I have in 2-5 years.  Currently range is great for me, but if I lose 20 miles it will not be nearly as useful and that seems likely to happen, just a question of when.


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## woodgeek (Jul 13, 2014)

FWIW, in the MA climate, with a 2013 battery formulation, I am confident that you will do a LOT better with battery life than CA folks with the 2011 battery.


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## JP11 (Jul 13, 2014)

Interesting reading here gents.

Installing my 12.2kw PV solar on the 'barn' roof in a few months.

Thinking plug in hybrid for my wife's next car.
I kind of like the idea of that BMW i3.  It sure isn't cheap.  But I'm 15 miles from town.. so that's 30 to really go anywhere.  I think I'll need one of these 'range extender' cars.  Which means a volt or i3 at the moment.

Realistically, I'm a year or two out from buying.  I think this market segment is going to have many more choices by then.

JP


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## Slow1 (Jul 14, 2014)

JP11 said:


> Realistically, I'm a year or two out from buying. I think this market segment is going to have many more choices by then.


 I certainly hope that there are.  My hope is that we'll have a good electric/hybrid solution available to replace our minivan.  We have 6 in our family so we need something with more seatbelts than the standard sedan/car.  I read somewhere that there may be some sort of minivan type vehicle in the next couple years (I think it was the Town and Country).




woodgeek said:


> t you will do a LOT better with battery life than CA folks with the 2011 battery.



Hoping for the best.  Reading on the 'issues' it does seem mostly to be a southern US problem.  I don't know if that is just because fewer were sold up in this area or really due to the heat etc.  I also don't see a lot of info for 2012 or any for 2013 model years (I'd think there would be something if there were).

I also suspect that Nissan may have modified their battery indicators between those years too.  I've been told by my local dealer's "Expert" that at full charge the car is not at full chemical charge i.e. risk of overcharge/damage from sitting at 100% is reduced/eliminated.  Perhaps this will help too...  In any case I'm not going to worry about it now - I'll just enjoy the car and see what happens when it does.  For now the only thing bugging me is seeing my power usage double at the house.

Oh an another thing - I did find out that charging at 240 is in fact more 'efficient' than 120.  Apparently whenever the leaf charges there is about a 300watt overhead so 120v falls into the 75-80% efficiency (I.e. over 20% of the energy from the wall is 'lost') but this 'loss' falls to about 10% when charging at full 6Kw rate.


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## begreen (Jul 14, 2014)

Choices should improve. In 2016 VW will be introducing the 7 passenger CrossBlue. It will be a generator hybrid with 661 mile overall range and about 14 mile electric range. 4WD will be accomplished with a large electric motor on the rear wheels and smaller one up front. Genset will be diesel or gas. Mitsubishi is now selling a similar Outlander in Japan, Australia and Europe where it has been a hit. It gets >60mpg and has a 30+ mile electric range. Chevy is rumored to be working on a similar crossover with Volt drive. 

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/volkswagen-crossblue-concept-prototype-drive-review
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com.au/vehicles/outlander-phev


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## Where2 (Jul 14, 2014)

begreen said:


> Choices should improve. In 2016 VW will be introducing the 7 passenger CrossBlue.



As a loyal VW owner, I still won't hold my breath waiting for the TDI version of the CrossBlue. I'd venture to guess if it _ever_ shows up, it's price tag will be upward of what the old V-10 TDI used to cost in the Touareg. In comparison to the cost of a Leaf, I'd say it'll cost about what two basic leaves and a family pack of annual passes to Disney are worth... The 661 mile range would be nice, but I already get that with the ten year old VW TDI wagon in my driveway, if I just drive in the city.


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## Slow1 (Jul 15, 2014)

I hear you.  There are a lot of promising 'maybe' vehicles out there.  I'm sure the marketing folks at various companies look at the reactions to their prototype vehicles to help decide if there is enough demand to justify the development.  Those of us who are basically early adopters are likely to get more excited than the rest of the general population, but the real profits are not made selling to early adopters.

I do take heart in seeing more movement in these early prototypes towards stronger hybrid designs as well as more plug in options.  If nothing else, perhaps it will encourage businesses to install more ESVEs.  Then businesses need to see the return on them too - few will actually do it just to be nice.  On that front, I know we've frequented businesses near the one public ESVE in our town more since buying the car.  Discovered a nice frozen yogurt place there as well as the restaurants we already knew about but hadn't visited in a while.  Not exactly saving myself any money, heh.  Wish there were some near places we go more regularly - i.e. grocery store or home depot or heck, even McDonalds.  But I suppose it takes a LOT of extra burgers to pay for the install alone....


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## woodgeek (Jul 15, 2014)

It helps that the price of EVSEs is dropping.  When EVs get popular, many will prob have 40kWh+ packs, and will want >10 kW EVSEs.  MAybe we should not build out a ton of smaller ones.


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## Slow1 (Jul 15, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> It helps that the price of EVSEs is dropping.  When EVs get popular, many will prob have 40kWh+ packs, and will want >10 kW EVSEs.  MAybe we should not build out a ton of smaller ones.



That is an interesting question to ponder.  While I agree that larger batteries etc will come and the desire to charge faster will grow I think it really depends on the intent of the installed EVSE. 

For example, on major roadways (highways etc) where the use case of the EVSE is to "charge and go long way to next charger" having the fastest EVSE available is a good idea to minimize the stopover (i.e. stick your DC fast chargers there).  Then the use case of a long road trip is better handled. 

However, if the use case is more local  then I could see the argument for many smaller EVSE installs that basically provide a charge at a rate to encourage folks to utilize a business and get a bit of a charge.  Example - if I am driving locally and make 3 stops a few miles from each other and could plug in at each then a slow charger is fine - i.e. assume each stop is 5 miles from the next and it makes for a loop (20 miles total), then if I get 5 miles at each stop I should be fine/happy.  Assume those stops are 30 minutes on average than a 6Kw L2 charger at each would well make up for my usage.  The power draw then from each business (presumably the ones providing power) would be minimized and it is more likely to be used by customers.  My assumption here is that car owners primarily charge at home and only add while out to keep moving to other local destinations. 

Personally, I like the idea of charging where I plan to be anyway (i.e. at the grocery store) rather than go somewhere specific and 'fill up' as I wait (the gas station model).

Perhaps this is another change of mindset for drivers - long rang is critical between fill-ups if you have limited locations to fill, but if you can 'top off wherever you are' then longer range becomes less important until you have to go far between stops...


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## woodgeek (Jul 15, 2014)

It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.  I am currently of the opinion that there is probably a 'sweet spot' at around a 150 mile range.  If battery cycle lifetimes are ~1000 full depth cycles, that works out to a 150,000 miles for a battery, is conveniently larger than most peoples' daily drive needs (allowing plenty of margin for heat and AC and extreme cold and battery age).

In contrast, we have 75 mile range EVs, which are very useful, but which lack that margin, and the battery will likely be mostly shot before 100k miles, while the rest of the car is in very solid shape (of course, it can be swapped for new, prob for $2-3k when the time comes).

An EV with near future battery tech and Tesla-like range (250 miles) will have to be a lot more expensive and muscular to pull the heavy battery around while maintaining good performance, the battery will still have useful life even when the rich owner is 'tired' of the car (>150k miles) or its styling.  I think they will remain a luxury niche relative to the (currently not available) 150 mile EV.

A 20 minute fast charge every couple hours (in a 150 mile EV) is no bigs on a road trip, nearly consistent with snack and potty breaks, versus in our EVs, stopping every 50 miles or 45 minutes or so.  Especially if you only have to stop once or twice on a 250 mile trip, versus 4 times for the current leaf.

So, the sweet spot for QC systems is to do 50 kWh batteries in 20 minutes....150 kW.  EV SUVs (shudder) would need something more like 80 kWh and 250 kW (shudder).


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## Slow1 (Jul 15, 2014)

All excellent points.  I agree that getting to 150+ mile range (with QC network to support) will be necessary for wide adoption of EVs for long distance driving. 
I suppose I'm being simple minded thinking about local use, but I have to imagine that local use is the main way that most folks use their vehicles with only the occasional long distance drive.  Given this, I think the current range is likely good enough for most folks - even if they don't realize it.  It is interesting how many folks when I talk about the car and they learn the range immediately think of a need to drive farther and ask about it... while I can't say we never drive more than 80 miles in a day, I can say it is relatively rare.  Kind of like an interview I saw with an EV driver in LA - he reported a lot of folks ask "what if you want to drive to Vegas" as if it is a daily event... his response was "I've never done that in any car, how often do you go there?"  

And another note - one has to change their thinking to allow for using the whole range; in our gas cars we rarely let the tank get below 1/4 full.  We're adjusting quite well to the idea of arriving home with less than 10% remaining - and won't panic even if at 5%.


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## woodgeek (Jul 15, 2014)

I agree completely.  90% of our driving is <50 miles, and 10% is over 100 miles.  I (obviously) agree with you about the utility of the existing Leaf.  But it does end up being a second car for some suburbanites (with typical or shorter commutes), or a first car for urban types, and roadtrips are, for the moment a PITA.  And there are driving conditions (highway, cold, topo, old battery) where the above utility might be impacted.  Doubling the range and a QC network will remove these remaining (minor)  issues.

The bigger thing comes down to innumeracy.  If you are comfortable with numbers, you can estimate/trust your range versus distance and be happy.  I think this means most americans are out....and will never be comfortable being anywhere close to running out, or having to do a little computation in their heads.

IOW, innumerate folks will always have range anxiety.


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## begreen (Jul 15, 2014)

The Volt solved these questions nicely for us. We are all electric for 90% of our driving,but not range challenged when we want to head out of town which is maybe 4-5 times a year. No range anxiety and I don't have to plan my trip around the car.


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## Slow1 (Jul 15, 2014)

I have to admit that if the Volt had 5 seatbelts I likely would have bought one given a decent deal.  With 4 kids, we rather have to be able to have that extra seat much of the time - like anytime I"m at work and the wife is carting kids about  

I do like the all electric too though - a bit less complex on the maintenance schedule although time will tell just what does break in these cars.


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## begreen (Jul 15, 2014)

Yes, that would be a challenge for sure. We are sort of empty nesters now. More than 4 is a rare situation for us and we have a Eurovan that seats 7 if need be like when company arrives.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 15, 2014)

I can hear the designers now. "First it was not enough cup holders. Now not enough seat belts. What next..."


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## Slow1 (Jul 16, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> I can hear the designers now. "First it was not enough cup holders. Now not enough seat belts. What next..."



I do have to laugh on this one.  One of my wife's first complaints was the cup holders are too small for her water bottle.  Go figure.

Too bad it isn't like the old days when we could just pile people into the car without regard to seatbelts eh?  

Having to have a larger vehicle is definitely one of the costs of a large family.  Our "family" car is a Toyota minivan that seats 8 which allows us to pick up grandparents and truck everyone around.  It has just over 150K miles on it - I do wonder if it will last long enough to get a plug-in to replace it


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## semipro (Jul 16, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I agree completely. 90% of our driving is <50 miles, and 10% is over 100 miles. I (obviously) agree with you about the utility of the existing Leaf. But it does end up being a second car for some suburbanites (with typical or shorter commutes), or a first car for urban types, and roadtrips are, for the moment a PITA. And there are driving conditions (highway, cold, topo, old battery) where the above utility might be impacted. Doubling the range and a QC network will remove these remaining (minor) issues.


If only this sort of implementation of a tag-along fuel powered generator wasn't so unwieldy. Its really a shame that cars like the Volt have to haul around an engine when its unneeded most of the time.



http://www.autoweek.com/article/car-news/ep-tender-could-give-electric-cars-unlimited-range
Edit: This just got me to thinking how much I'd like an EV pickup that I could throw a generator into the bed of.


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## CaptSpiff (Jul 16, 2014)

This Trailer Tender would be uninteresting were it not for the Reverse Wheel feature. I think 99% of car drivers dread the thought of having to backup with a trailer. 

With this overcome. it seems like a solution to long range EV travel. And I can see commercial rest stops along Interstates renting these for a 200 mile trip.

Could a $25 one-way rental fee support the business model?

I wonder how large a 50 to 75 KWh tender would be?


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## woodgeek (Jul 16, 2014)

semipro said:


> If only this sort of implementation of a tag-along fuel powered generator wasn't so unwieldy. Its really a shame that cars like the Volt have to haul around an engine when its unneeded most of the time.
> View attachment 135446
> 
> http://www.autoweek.com/article/car-news/ep-tender-could-give-electric-cars-unlimited-range
> Edit: This just got me to thinking how much I'd like an EV pickup that I could throw a generator into the bed of.



Ugh.  What a horrible idea.  I think by the time EVs take off there will be no market for such ridiculousness.  Decent range and QuickCharge and you're done.  How long does it take me to find, attach, and pay for this system versus a QC stop or two while the kinder are in the bathroom?

I don't see how this can even be connected to any EVs I know of, which lock out propulsion during the charging cycle for obvious safety reasons.


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## CaptSpiff (Jul 16, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Ugh.  What a horrible idea.  I think by the time EVs take off there will be no market for such ridiculousness.  Decent range and QuickCharge and you're done.  How long does it take me to find, attach, and pay for this system versus a QC stop or two while the kinder are in the bathroom?


I wish for what you wish, but reality seems to be meandering in a different (or much slower) direction.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/car-news/toyota-and-nissan-choose-different-green-car-paths



woodgeek said:


> I don't see how this can even be connected to any EVs I know of, which lock out propulsion during the charging cycle for obvious safety reasons.


I don't think there's any way to make a Tender work with the present EV's. But the article above forecasts a slow slog of EV acceptance thru 2020, which makes me think we are not looking at the final designs.

I have an 03 Avalon (127K) and an 04 F150 (84K) in the driveway. I'm just beginning to look at replacing the Toyota, and I'm trying to get comfortable with the EV concept. The commute of 43mi RT says it's perfect. Problem is my LD drives annually: 4 to Albany (200 mi oneway), 8-10 to Poconos (175 mi oneway), and 6-8 to VT (275 mi one way), which will likely continue. I'm toying with getting a 3rd car, but frugality is fighting me. Looks like I'm heading toward a Hybrid or another highway cruiser.

Hoping for a brighter EV future.


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## woodgeek (Jul 16, 2014)

I read that article a bit differently....sales growth post launch for the Leaf has so far exceeded that of the Prius, and it went on to be one of the most popular cars in the world.  I get that Toyota is passing on the Li-battery EV concept, but as EVs grow, they will eat into Prius (and other hybrid) sales from the 'efficient/green' side, while conventional cars will eat its share from the cost side as ICE vehicles evolve.  Indeed, conventional hybrid sales growth has slowed over the last couple years.


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## Slow1 (Jul 16, 2014)

Interesting looking at the specs for that e-NV200 van of Nissan's.  Battery etc look to be basically the same as the Leaf (hmm... economy of scale anyone?).  Stick a 3rd row in there and I'd consider it for my family vehicle as we'd be able to fit all 6 in it.  I wonder if such a vehicle could sell.

I'm surprised, however, that they don't put a larger battery pack in it - but that must be a cost issue.  I wonder what the "normal" driving distance is for local delivery companies?  I can't imagine that UPS drivers drive less than 80 miles a day - this doesn't seem to meet that need too well.  Maybe the local flower shop?


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## begreen (Jul 16, 2014)

semipro said:


> If only this sort of implementation of a tag-along fuel powered generator wasn't so unwieldy. Its really a shame that cars like the Volt have to haul around an engine when its unneeded most of the time.
> View attachment 135446
> 
> http://www.autoweek.com/article/car-news/ep-tender-could-give-electric-cars-unlimited-range
> Edit: This just got me to thinking how much I'd like an EV pickup that I could throw a generator into the bed of.



For a lot of folks the genset is needed daily when their round trip commute exceeds 40 miles. I like the concept of the Volt. Often we will head into Seattle and have a change of plans that exceeds our electric range. No big deal at all with a portable genset. Also, the Volt is an excellent highway car. It is a smoother rider than the shorter wheelbase EVs I test drove and significantly better than our Prius was. Overall I think they got it right with a lot of the core features on this car in spite of some ergonomic failures.


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## Slow1 (Jul 16, 2014)

begreen said:


> For a lot of folks the genset is needed daily when their round trip commute exceeds 40 miles. I like the concept of the Volt. Often we will head into Seattle and have a change of plans that exceeds our electric range. No big deal at all with a portable genset. Also, the Volt is an excellent highway car. It is a smoother rider than the shorter wheelbase EVs I test drove and significantly better than our Prius was. Overall I think they got it right with a lot of the core features on this car in spite of some ergonomic failures.



Sure would be nice if they would add a 240v AC out plug so that in emergencies you could plug it into the house.  I know, that would result in folks leaving the car running in the garage and killing themselves - too much liability.  However, it would be a nice additional value in my opinion.  I just installed a generator that I hope never to need, would rather drive it around and keep it running that way ha!


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## woodgeek (Jul 16, 2014)

Realistically, you can get a 1500 Watt pure sine inverter and cables for <$300, that the Volt could run indefinitely (from gas) in the driveway, or that the Leaf could run for 15 kWh, and then get recharged at the nearest Chademo charger.  If you want 240V, get a $30 step up transformer.


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## Slow1 (Jul 16, 2014)

I understand all that - the thought though would be that one could pull a lot more power from the generator part of the car and possibly power most of a home with the right connection.  Just pulling from the 12v battery and having the car recharge it is all fine and well, but there could be a better path.


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## DBoon (Jul 16, 2014)

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've seen in a long time...


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## BrotherBart (Jul 16, 2014)

Just a reserve fuel tank.


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## semipro (Jul 17, 2014)

To me its somewhat analogous to using a trailer to occasionally haul things behind your car instead of driving a pickup all the time.


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## woodgeek (Jul 17, 2014)

I guess I am more of a 'rent a van' kind of guy.  AND, like it or not, towing anything with the Leaf voids the battery warranty.

At highway speeds, 70 mph, and 3 mi/kWh, we need 70/3 = 24 kW for sustained cruise.  How lightweight can we get such a genny?


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## Slow1 (Jul 17, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I guess I am more of a 'rent a van' kind of guy.  AND, like it or not, towing anything with the Leaf voids the battery warranty.
> 
> At highway speeds, 70 mph, and 3 mi/kWh, we need 70/3 = 24 kW for sustained cruise.  How lightweight can we get such a genny?



Interesting approach to the analysis - I like it.  A quick google search for "24 Kw generator" returned some pretty large/heavy pieces of hardware... Makes me wonder what they did for the Volt to generate enough power and keep that thing small....


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## begreen (Jul 17, 2014)

The Volt genset output is 55KW. Look at marine gensets for more compact arrangements. However, these will not be sized for direct charging of the higher voltage packs in electric cars.


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## Slow1 (Jul 17, 2014)

begreen said:


> The Volt genset output is 55KW. Look at marine gensets for more compact arrangements. However, these will not be sized for direct charging of the higher voltage packs in electric cars.



And you see why I think it would be nice to use it as a whole house backup?  I think the highest draw I've seen in the last 3 years of monitoring my home via the TED5000 is around 12 or 15Kw.  That Volt could power my AC and everything if wired correctly   I could just see it now - a disaster strikes and the call goes out, a couple dozen Volts show up and power the hospital's critical systems... would make a crazy cool advertisement too, ha!


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## woodgeek (Jul 24, 2014)

a useful wiki on current EV rebates in the different states:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles#Other_states

Looks like I might have gotten a $3k incentive from PA if I had purchased....who knew?


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## CaptSpiff (Jul 24, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> a useful wiki on current EV rebates in the different states:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles#Other_states
> Looks like I might have gotten a $3k incentive from PA if I had purchased....who knew?


I wonder if your dealer or the leasing company got the incentive ?

Also thanks for that link. Surprised to see NY or CT not listed.


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## semipro (Jul 24, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> a useful wiki on current EV rebates in the different states:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles#Other_states


As usual, Virginia not involved in anything remotely progressive.
At least the additional tax on EV/HEV was repealed here.  That pretty much defines "progressive" in VA.


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## woodgeek (Jul 24, 2014)

CaptSpiff said:


> I wonder if your dealer or the leasing company got the incentive ?
> 
> Also thanks for that link. Surprised to see NY or CT not listed.




I think it depends on the state.  Slow1 is claiming $2500 from MA because he bought.  For me leasing in PA, I think neither me nor the dealer see that money.  But my dealer got $7500 from the feds that got factored into my lease rate.

If you know of a NY or CT incentive, you could add it to the wiki.


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