# Anyone else live in an uninsulated house?



## Beanscoot (Dec 4, 2009)

It's a 1914 bungalow with a developed attic, and even with the good Hearthstone II stove keeping the living room toasty, the far bedroom gets pretty chilly by morning.  Now that it's getting frosty at night, it was a not-so-balmy 46 F. this morning in the bedroom.

  It's so bad the cat is starting to crawl under the bed covers (and she's not a particularly sociable feline)!


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 4, 2009)

Well, most of the house is uninsulated.  The attic is insulated and an addition on the back is insulated.  The rest of the rooms of this 1920 house are uninsulated.  

Matt


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## fraxinus (Dec 4, 2009)

Insulation in attic only - 6" of rigid styrofoam installed on attic floor, fiberglass on end walls. Main section of house built around 1810, ell in 1870 have no insulation in the walls. Original section has corner posts and vertical framing around windows only. This means space between "studs' can be anywhere from 18" to almost 4'. From the exterior there are cedar clapboards, 1.25" boards for sheathing, lathing, then 1.5 to 2" of plaster. Stone foundation walls have been sealed with sprayed shotcrete from the inside - not exactly insulation, but did eliminate a lot of air leaks. All floor /ceiling joists are cedar logs 6 to 8" in diameter squared only on the nailing surface. While there is no insulation in the walls, this is not a drafty house. Windows all have mostly original glass, exterior storm windows, and on the second floor homemade interior storm windows. 

For this neighborhood, this is not a particularly old house - neighbor's across the street dates from 1774. These houses have lasted because they were built with quality materials and were constructed in such a way that they could "breathe". Once upon a time the chief threat to 18th and 19th century buildings was development; now its probably misguided energy efficiency.


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## jharkin (Dec 4, 2009)

Partially insulated here.

The "original" end of the house is a center chimney cape built in 1795.  Its partially insulated. The second floor (originally unfinished attic) was refinished most recently sometime in the 50's - I'm fairly confident of that because there is about 2 inches of decaying cellulose bat insulation labeled kimsul in the ceiling. If I'm lucky that ceiling is giving me R-5   On the first floor the bathroom and master bedroom (which was redone) both have fiberglass bats in the walls but the other rooms with plaster are uninsulated as best I can tell.

Off the back of the house is an ell that I think dates somewhere between 1800-1850. This area has insulation in the ceiling only (R-20 bats on floor of crawlspace attic above).

The ell had a porch that was closed in and renovated to make whats now the dining room in the 70's. At the same time the kitchen in the back half of the ell was redone. The kitchen and dining room are both fully insulated, in parts I can even see vapor barrier when I peek in around outlets.

This is our first winter in the house.  stove is in the center of the ell and will all the doors open the heat spreads quite nicely.

-Jeremy


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## jharkin (Dec 4, 2009)

fraxinus-

Curious - Did you do any sealing on the outside of your foundation when you coated the inside? Do you ever get water problems in you basement?  Stone cellar here also and we have a high water table - Ive got drainage channels and french drains  and when we get a couple days of heavy rain I get seepage.  I've just been pointing the worst cracks with lime mortar and run a dehumidifier - was warned that any interior sealing will just make water build up behind the walls and undermine the foundation....


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## Adios Pantalones (Dec 4, 2009)

Beanscoot- look into pink insulation for the attic and blown in for the walls ASAP.  It aint getting warmer this year bro.  Check freecycle and Craigslist for leftover pink insulation.  I suspect that lots of folks have it leftover from a project- I have some in my basement in fact.


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## Dune (Dec 4, 2009)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> Beanscoot- look into pink insulation for the attic and blown in for the walls ASAP.  It aint getting warmer this year bro.  Check freecycle and Craigslist for leftover pink insulation.  I suspect that lots of folks have it leftover from a project- I have some in my basement in fact.



Sans-Slacks, good to see you back. How was Germany?


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## Adios Pantalones (Dec 4, 2009)

I went twice over the summer for biddnizz (was consulting, have since found steady employment).  Germany was great- good folks, business went well, ate lots of pig and had local beer.  Over there they fry a damn porkchop and call it schnitzel- that is so awesome.  What else can I fry that I have neglected?


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## jharkin (Dec 4, 2009)

I think beanscoot has the same problem I do - with a finished attic there is no way to insulate the roof properly without tearing down the ceiling to provide for vapor barriers and ventilation space between insulation and roof.


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## szmaine (Dec 4, 2009)

Some was uninsulated when we purchased in 2005, we have added much but still have alot to do as previous retrofits are mostly inadequate. 

The house is 1840's cape with two appendages - kitchen/shed L and dining room addition, everything has sloped ceilings.
The very small room (storage hopefully to be 1/2 bath soon) above the dining room had zero insulation, since the plaster was bulging and the roof had a big whoopie
in it we gutted that room - framing was a mess! The sag in the roof was do to the removal of a chimney, to bridge the hole someone nailed a half a log over it (husband excited - said it was black walnut and carried it off to his "treasure" stash). Over the kitchen was wood paneling w/ some species of bat ~1" think label "Balsam wool" and was indeed full of what looked like sawdust. Both rooms we used Tuff-R isocyanurate due to very limited space, with the reflective foil now we have theoretically R = 24. The rest of the house was previous retrofitted with blown-in rock wool, and some vermiculite to fill the nooks and crannies (I know it is the Libby Montana stuff since they we kind enough to leave behind two vintage mint condition bag of Zonolite).
The main attic has ~3" of loose fill and I mean to remedy that but is going to be a major project: need to get the old stuff out due to severe accumulation of mouse poo and bat guano, knob-and-tube needs to come out, old asbestos insulated expansion tank, more vermiculite and as usual there's always carpentry repairs when ever you dare look too close. Aren't old houses a blast.

Oh yeah, crack in the field stone foundation? in one, thankfully, small area someone thought it would be a good idea to stuff those full of some asbestos pipe wrap that must have fallen off - hey, waste not want not.


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## anka (Dec 4, 2009)

While I also own an early cape (1795) in midcoast Maine, I think the majority of the old buildings with the exception of a few examples in Bath, Wiscasset etc, are in fact inefficiant and in need of updates. There are many historic homes that should be kept original, but most people in the state live in trailers... My home also has stone a basement with some original rough rounded beams with bark intact... but the house is very leaky, and poorly maintained over the years. Vinal siding over painted asphault shingles, no sign of original cedar... No insulation... new leaky windows... flooding and mold in basement... mice squirrels.. you name it. I actually have a healthy hatred of the place as it has pushed my diy nature to the limit. Babyproofing the led paint is next-
I would use the tax credit to do as much spray on insullation as possible. Possibly the upper part of the basement foundation, interior walls that need re-rocking, etc. I used pink on the attick, which along with the upstairs is sealed in winter. Downstairs ceilings also get pink.... but, the more spray foam the better....
If I were going to live here permanently (eight years so far) this would be a summer cottage or a teardown and I would build something new further from the road. 

Anka.


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## szmaine (Dec 4, 2009)

anka said:
			
		

> While I also own an early cape (1795) in midcoast Maine, I think the majority of the old buildings with the exception of a few examples in Bath, Wiscasset etc, are in fact inefficiant and in need of updates. There are many historic homes that should be kept original, but most people in the state live in trailers... My home also has stone a basement with some original rough rounded beams with bark intact... but the house is very leaky, and poorly maintained over the years. Vinal siding over painted asphault shingles, no sign of original cedar... No insulation... new leaky windows... flooding and mold in basement... mice squirrels.. you name it. I actually have a healthy hatred of the place as it has pushed my diy nature to the limit. Babyproofing the led paint is next-
> I would use the tax credit to do as much spray on insullation as possible. Possibly the upper part of the basement foundation, interior walls that need re-rocking, etc. I used pink on the attick, which along with the upstairs is sealed in winter. Downstairs ceilings also get pink.... but, the more spray foam the better....
> If I were going to live here permanently (eight years so far) this would be a summer cottage or a teardown and I would build something new further from the road.
> 
> Anka.



Have you ever looked into the Maine home repair network? Go check it out at the Maine housing authority web site. There are income limits but if you qualify
they can be a valuable resource for many things - like the lead paint issue, insulation etc.


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## Dune (Dec 4, 2009)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> I went twice over the summer for biddnizz (was consulting, have since found steady employment).  Germany was great- good folks, business went well, ate lots of pig and had local beer.  Over there they fry a damn porkchop and call it schnitzel- that is so awesome.  What else can I fry that I have neglected?



Awesome! So glad you have steady work.


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## jharkin (Dec 4, 2009)

anka said:
			
		

> While I also own an early cape (1795) in midcoast Maine, I think the majority of the old buildings with the exception of a few examples in Bath, Wiscasset etc, are in fact inefficiant and in need of updates. There are many historic homes that should be kept original, but most people in the state live in trailers... My home also has stone a basement with some original rough rounded beams with bark intact... but the house is very leaky, and poorly maintained over the years. Vinal siding over painted asphault shingles, no sign of original cedar... No insulation... new leaky windows... flooding and mold in basement... mice squirrels.. you name it. I actually have a healthy hatred of the place as it has pushed my diy nature to the limit. Babyproofing the led paint is next-
> I would use the tax credit to do as much spray on insullation as possible. Possibly the upper part of the basement foundation, interior walls that need re-rocking, etc. I used pink on the attick, which along with the upstairs is sealed in winter. Downstairs ceilings also get pink.... but, the more spray foam the better....
> If I were going to live here permanently (eight years so far) this would be a summer cottage or a teardown and I would build something new further from the road.
> 
> Anka.



Just IMHO - but I think most of the poor state of repair of some old buildings is actually due to the misguided attempts at modernizing.  the original materials, if properly maintained tend to last longer than the cheap plastic and foam in use today. I find that I have far more issues/problems with the "renovated" parts of my house than the original areas.

Be careful of what contractors will tell you, many methods and materials that are fine for new construction will absolutely ruin an old house. 
- Adding insulation when you dont have vapor barriers leads to rot
- water sealing stone foundations on the inside without giving the water someplace to go can make them collapse
- repointing old (pre-1900) masonry with cement instead of lime will cause bricks to shatter and lead to worse cracks
- and vinyl windows as you have seen are often worse then just refinishing and adding storms to good wood windows.


 I highly recommend taking a look at old house journal and oldhouseweb.com for ideas... Those have been a huge help to me.

-Jeremy


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## prajna101 (Dec 4, 2009)

Not much when I got it.  I have slowly kept my eyes on craigslist.  When I see free insulation pop up, i grab it.  I have about 75% of the attic done now.  I have not spent a dime.  About 25% of the crawlspace too.  Every bit helps. 

t


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## Chargerman (Dec 4, 2009)

Fortunately, the 70's ranch home I recently bought has about 6" of settled cellulose and 4" wall studs with fiberglass. Not the best but better that nothing. I plan on hitting the attic pretty soon. So far my stove is keeping up but more insulation in the attic would sure help.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 4, 2009)

Beanscoot said:
			
		

> It's a 1914 bungalow with a developed attic, and even with the good Hearthstone II stove keeping the living room toasty, the far bedroom gets pretty chilly by morning.  Now that it's getting frosty at night, it was a not-so-balmy 46 F. this morning in the bedroom.
> 
> It's so bad the cat is starting to crawl under the bed covers (and she's not a particularly sociable feline)!



I'm right there with you. 1741 stone farmhouse with inadequate insulation in the attic (hopefully that will change sooner rather than later) and single pane windows. The attic insulation will help, the windows won't be upgraded for a few years, and you can't do a damn thin about the stone.

I will be installing a third stove which will take place either this summer or the next.


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## begreen (Dec 4, 2009)

Until the house is well insulated and caulked, this is heating a sieve. Insulating is prolly one of the best investments one can make as it keeps paying back from the day it's done. It doesn't take much to reduce fuel consumption (thus pollution) and increase comfort significantly.


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## karri0n (Dec 4, 2009)

What is more important - attic insulation or preventing air infiltration on floors one and two?


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## szmaine (Dec 4, 2009)

It seems to me,  from what I've read,  that air infiltration is the number one culprit of heat loss due to the stack effect (ie draft)  - not to mention the transport of water vapor which can , obviously, lead to condensation. Also, air infiltration can reduce the r value of existing insulation - particularly, blown in fiberglass - due to air washing.


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## muncybob (Dec 4, 2009)

karri0n said:
			
		

> What is more important - attic insulation or preventing air infiltration on floors one and two?



Probably would depend on how severe the air inflitration is I guess. I will say that attic insulation in our place made the second story noticeably warmer from day 1. In any case...get one done and then start on the other!


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## szmaine (Dec 4, 2009)

> Probably would depend on how severe the air inflitration is I guess. I will say that attic insulation in our place made the second story noticeably warmer from day 1. In any case…get one done and then start on the other!



Gotta plug the holes before you pile on the insulation. Purely a practical matter.


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## fraxinus (Dec 4, 2009)

jharkin - The original foundation is what is known around here as a rubble foundation. Builders dug a trench, then filled with what ever stone was at hand up to the grade. From there to the sills, they used blocks of stone or a double or triple width of brick (my case). Inside they created a gutter around the perimeter of the cellar to direct water to a gravity drain which led any water out. There were a number of advantages to this system. The foundation could flex with the frost, water did not build up against the outside of the foundation no matter how heavy the rains. When I had the shotcrete sprayed, plenty of channels were left to allow water to move as it had for the past 200 years. There was no thought of "waterproofing". When there's a lot of rain - last summer, for instance - plenty of water flows in and then out. Sealing the area above grade from the inside was the most important for air sealing. Before the shotcrete, I also did some grading on the outside to insure water would not accumulate near the foundation. The cellar, like most in the area, will never be converted to a family room, but it will continue stand (if cellars stand).

I agree completely with your point about modern methods/materials in old houses. One early nineteenth century house near here had vinyl siding installed after blown in insulation. New owners stripped off the siding. Bottom 3-4' of siding, boards, sills  was totally rotted and sodden. Any old window can be made more efficient than any you can buy today, no matter what the price. Most of the lumber available today would have been relegated to the scrap pile in the past. The prospect of an army of briefly trained, inexperienced "building efficiency" workers descending on old buildings in Maine and elsewhere generally fills me with dread. Actions like this may make the charming myth that most people in Maine live in trailers a reality.


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## kenny chaos (Dec 4, 2009)

jharkin said:
			
		

> [
> Just IMHO - but I think most of the poor state of repair of some old buildings is actually due to the misguided attempts at modernizing.  the original materials, if properly maintained tend to last longer than the cheap plastic and foam in use today. I find that I have far more issues/problems with the "renovated" parts of my house than the original areas.
> 
> Be careful of what contractors will tell you, many methods and materials that are fine for new construction will absolutely ruin an old house.
> ...





That's a whole lot more than just your HO Jeremy.
Even the best contractors follow the trend of the day.
It truly is appalling, some of the thinking that goes into
working on old houses, and new.


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## kenny chaos (Dec 4, 2009)

There used to be a magazine called New England something or other.
Best carpenter trade mag to ever exist.
Anybody familiar with it?


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## szmaine (Dec 4, 2009)

I have worn out my copy of "Renovating Old Houses: Bringing new life to Vintage Homes", by George Nash.

If you are an old house person and looking to/in the process of buying a new OLD home,  buy it FIRST! If you already own one - lot of good ideas and overview of the issues. From insulation - to framing - to drainage, etc


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## Cluttermagnet (Dec 5, 2009)

We live in a 1960 brick Rambler. I was astonished to learn, fairly recently, that the 2x4 frame outside walls were *not * built to include any fiberglass batt insulation between studs. What cheap ba'tards those builders were. Downright dishonest, I figure. The attic has blown-in cellulose between 2x6 joists. It has settled over the years, but is easily fluffed up by raking. I've also put more loose fill cellulose up there, then added unfaced R-30 perpendicular to joists. It's a work in progress, some areas still await insulation.

I saw an episode of This Old House where the guys retrofitted insulation into outside walls of a New England house that were also 'hollow' like mine. They used loose cellulose applied from the outside bottom, blown in  through small, round holes using a reducer nozzle. Ours is brick on 3 sides, so that's out. I plan to go with  loose cellulose pushed into cutouts through the drywall inside, at ceiling height. I'm told that lightly packed is best. The stuff settles.

The upstairs (main) floor has a pretty wicked temperature gradient in the winter when it gets below 30F or so. I've seen up to 10-15 degrees between the Living Room/stove and the bedrooms in the end. I expect to see that decrease as the insulation gets installed, section by section.


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## DBoon (Dec 5, 2009)

> There used to be a magazine called New England something or other.
> Best carpenter trade mag to ever exist.
> Anybody familiar with it?



Would that be "Journal of Light Construction" that you are thinking of?  That's a great trade mag that I used to subscribe to. 

When I purchased my 1920s single floor 1250 square foot house several years ago, there was 6" of insulation in the attic, none in the walls, none underneath the floors, nothing in the basement on above grade walls, and no wooden storm windows installed.  That year, I used 1000 gallons of heating oil. 

Since then, I have added 8" of insulation to the attic, sealed that attic hatch really tightly, pumped fiberglass insulation into the walls (the walls have wallpaper over plaster, which is a pretty effective vapor barrier), put 6" of insulation underneath the floors, and insulated the above ground basement walls with 2" of foam.   Also installed the storm windows that were in the basement.  Oil use the last year before the wood stove was installed was 550 gallons.  Total investment to insulate was <$6000 total.


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## kenny chaos (Dec 5, 2009)

DBoon said:
			
		

> [
> Would that be "Journal of Light Construction" that you are thinking of?  l.





That's the one thank-you very much.


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## Beanscoot (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm envious of you East Coasters.  I'd love to have an 18th century house!

I live in an old house because I like them, and know that they aren't like new ones.  I searched until I found a house with original wood sash windows and wood floors.  I put plastic film over some windows in the winter, and realize that I should make simple storm windows for other windows.

The wife is after me to insulate the attic, I will do this to the rooms with only wallboard ceilings.  The room with lath and plaster I won't tear up.  I plan to use rock wool ("Roxul") insulation, but hadn't planned on using a vapor barrier.  A friend goes to a lot of demos and sees the condition of old houses and says he's never seen rot with the old paper face insulation, and this is in the Seattle climate zone.

I also don't like the idea of foam in the walls glued to the wood.  Remember urea-formaldehyde?  Oh yeah, it's different now, but...

There's a very little bit of knob and tube wiring left, which is actually good wiring.  The problem is if you want to add onto it, which I don't, it is awkward.

Anyway, thanks for the tips!


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## jharkin (Dec 10, 2009)

fraxinus said:
			
		

> jharkin - The original foundation is what is known around here as a rubble foundation. Builders dug a trench, then filled with what ever stone was at hand up to the grade. From there to the sills, they used blocks of stone or a double or triple width of brick (my case). Inside they created a gutter around the perimeter of the cellar to direct water to a gravity drain which led any water out. There were a number of advantages to this system. The foundation could flex with the frost, water did not build up against the outside of the foundation no matter how heavy the rains. When I had the shotcrete sprayed, plenty of channels were left to allow water to move as it had for the past 200 years. There was no thought of "waterproofing". When there's a lot of rain - last summer, for instance - plenty of water flows in and then out. Sealing the area above grade from the inside was the most important for air sealing. Before the shotcrete, I also did some grading on the outside to insure water would not accumulate near the foundation. The cellar, like most in the area, will never be converted to a family room, but it will continue stand (if cellars stand).
> 
> I agree completely with your point about modern methods/materials in old houses. One early nineteenth century house near here had vinyl siding installed after blown in insulation. New owners stripped off the siding. Bottom 3-4' of siding, boards, sills  was totally rotted and sodden. Any old window can be made more efficient than any you can buy today, no matter what the price. Most of the lumber available today would have been relegated to the scrap pile in the past. The prospect of an army of briefly trained, inexperienced "building efficiency" workers descending on old buildings in Maine and elsewhere generally fills me with dread. Actions like this may make the charming myth that most people in Maine live in trailers a reality.



Lost track of the thread when it moved...

You are describing my foundation exactly!  I keep calling it fieldstone because folks have heard of that but its actually similar to yours - rubble mortared with lime up to grade and then capped with 6ft long slabs of granite (rather than brick).  At some point they poured a slab in the basement and there is a drainage channel leading to a pit in the corner. Clay drain tiles under slab empty in the same pit. I can see old sections of iron pipe in that pit (for a gravity drain out to a drywell maybe?) which sadly were plugged and replaced with an electric sump .  So far the sump hasnt needed to run thankfully.

Like you I'm never finishing my cellar. Finished basements were a waste of perfectly good workshop space ;-)

Many thanks for the info on shotcrete, I learned something new.

-Jeremy


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## jharkin (Dec 10, 2009)

szmaine said:
			
		

> I have worn out my copy of "Renovating Old Houses: Bringing new life to Vintage Homes", by George Nash.
> 
> If you are an old house person and looking to/in the process of buying a new OLD home,  buy it FIRST! If you already own one - lot of good ideas and overview of the issues. From insulation - to framing - to drainage, etc



Second that recommendation.  Wife bought it for me when we were offering on our place.  Since then Ive also got the Old House Journal Compendium and a few other good ones.

Buying the old house is what bought me here, and to other sites like oldhouseweb and heatinghelp. Also learned to trust OHJ and ignore TOH.  I keep learning just how much I don't know but enjoy every minute. Working on old houses heating with wood, etc - to me its all just a a return to self sufficiency and self-reliance that so many folks have lost today. Feels good.

Ok, I'm getting waay off topic... that's all for now.
-Jeremy


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## laynes69 (Jan 1, 2010)

szmaine said:
			
		

> It seems to me,  from what I've read,  that air infiltration is the number one culprit of heat loss due to the stack effect (ie draft)  - not to mention the transport of water vapor which can , obviously, lead to condensation. Also, air infiltration can reduce the r value of existing insulation - particularly, blown in fiberglass - due to air washing.



We have an old victorian home from the mid 1800's. The walls were filled with 8" of urea-formaldahyde foam, and the attic has now 3" or so settled cellouse insulation. We have been getting some wicked drafts through the home, and all rooms but 2 are finished, with drywall and new wiring. I contacted some professional help and they said to air seal the attic. I went up there to do some investigating and found 25 open cavities. Almost all the interior walls were open to the attic. The home is a balloon frame home and the walls run from the basement to the attic. Where some voids had fiberglass stuffed in them and then cellouse on top the fiberglass was black from air infiltration. I sealed the holes with aluminum and fire rated caulk. Next I need to go to the basement and seal the base of the walls. Then around the perimeter of the basement. Made sense that when you feel a draft, its air up above thats leaving the house. With all the voids that I sealed, it was equivelent to a 12 SF opening in the home. So for us air sealing was very important. No matter how much insulation you use, you need to stop the air leaks.


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## jimmy dean (Jan 14, 2010)

Beanscoot:
      Many NewEngland states have Weatherization programs.. you may qualify.. it wouldn't kill you to apply. They would love a naked house to seal and insulate.


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## ChillyGator (Jan 14, 2010)

1650 sq ft Cottage built 1937 by my grandfather.  Bought from my grandmother in 1996.  Had some attic insulation, grandfather had rockwool blown into walls sometime back in late 50's when they added on a bedroom for my great grandfather (my current BR), no floor insulation.  The front of the house (living room, dinning, enclosed poarch) had large water oak fall on it back in 1985 from Hurricane Kate.  Front of the house was rebuilt but contractor did not put insulation in the attic (cut corners) 

I Had attic insulation added (R28 total) soon after  I bought it with some other work to help A/C.  Had other pressing repair work to do (scrape/repaint exterior) and remodeling bathroom (tub only -no shower).  Did this work then had to start saving to do more later.  Replaced old A/C unit in 2003 (propane furance repalced before I bought the house is still in great shape).

In 2007 I decided to start remodeling some in the front of the house (took up carpet, refinished heart pine floors, repainted from ceiling to baseboards) when I notice my unused fireplace (blocked off since 1960) was drafting LOTS of air (I had been basically keeping thre front of the house closed off) and upon looking for other leaks I found most of my singlepane windows were also very drafty.  Soooooo.......I starting reglazing EVERY window pane in the house (197 panes-took most of the summer -scrap old, replace what I broke, put in new glaze, trim, prime/paint, trim) and sealed off the firepalce.  Put up about 30 tubes of caulk throughout the house and a couple cans of 'Great Stuff" into any holes/cracks I could find.  From August that year to August 2008 my average monthly electric bill dropped almost in HALF (I'm on average billing plan so it was easy to track).  Tropical Storm dumped 30" of rain in less than a week on us in late in 2007 and I had to replace my roof in 2008 which I replaced with a White Metal roof.  Now attic temps are about ambient air temperature and electric usage continued to fall (rates went up so $$ stayed about the same).  

When Propane prices when through the roof last winter I knew I needed to do SOMETHING so I started looking at wood stoves.  HEARTH.COM was very usefull and saved me some real heartburn by keeping me on track with solid information to use during my search.  I had issues with the fireplace opening size so I was limited on the height of the rear vent (also looked at putting freestanding stove elsewhere but just no good location to put it).  Ended up wiht Morso 7110 which is smaller than I would have liked but $$ difference between it and a Castine was too much to overcome at the time.  Started cutting/splitting/stacking wood immediatley which has really paid off (my April 2009 Oak that was resplit in July is now 18-22%.....was 27-30% back in Oct......low hummidity seems to dry it out down here).

Last couple weeks of ARTIC AIR was a bear......I was keeping up in the living room (hard to get it over 72* to move air to the rest of the house) but the rest of the house was staying very cool (low 60's) and all the floors where cold.  Started talking to local insulation company about spray foam (open cell) to insulate my floors, and decided I need to do it now.  Was promised at least 3.5" of cured foam (R13) but it looks more like 5"-6" was put up (R 3.7/inch).  Foam came up through the floor in at least two places in my refinished floors  :bug:  

THE DIFFERENCE IS LIKE NIGHT AND DAY.......the first evening when I got home furnace was set at 61* but house temp was 65.5 just from the fire I left blazing away that morning, I kicked on the furnce (66* setting) just to warm the house more while I built a fire and in the first cylce the living room and my bedroom both came up to 68* (thermostat is in the hall where the return vent is and no air vent....probably need to move it).   Temps that night started at 42* and dropped to 32* by bedtime but after the inital fire, I could only add one or two splits to the stove or living room temp would go above 75*.  Now I can take a fan placed in the unheated hallway and blow cold air towards the stove room and the hallway heats up (before it would just stay cold....had to blow hot air towards the hall to do anything)!

To say the least I am very satisfyed with the results.  This worked a lot better than just trying to stuff a bigger stove in the room and now I'm staying warmer, using a lot less wood and almost no propane.  

THANKS HEARTH.COM!


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## BucksCoBernie (Jan 14, 2010)

Cellulose goes in the attic tomorrow...supposed to be a nice day out...high 40s. 

I'm seriously thinking about the spray foam in the crawlspace after reading ChillyGator's post. I put R-19 bats between the joist last year and it really hasnt done crap.


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## ChillyGator (Jan 14, 2010)

BucksCoBernie said:
			
		

> Cellulose goes in the attic tomorrow...supposed to be a nice day out...high 40s.
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about the spray foam in the crawlspace after reading ChillyGator's post. I put R-19 bats between the joist last year and it really hasnt done crap.



I think the main difference is the foam seals out air infiltration and there is no way to completly seal the air out with fiberglass batts (cutouts, electric boxes, etc).  My installer (who I think is a straight up guy....been in business in this area a long time) says the same thing and added he thinks R13 in foam is far superior to R19 in batts.  I tend to agree after seeing the results.

My main reason in going foam was I wanted something that I knew would not wick or hold moisture against my subfloors and that would stay up.

Forgot to mention that I plann to bring the attic up to R38 before summer (blown fiberglass on top of existing cellulose).


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## Beanscoot (Jan 14, 2010)

"Many NewEngland states have Weatherization programs.. you may qualify.. it wouldn’t kill you to apply."

Well, I suppose it wouldn't kill me, but I doubt their Weatherization programs extend to foreign countries.  I am in British Columbia, Canada.

As it happens, the spouse has insisted that I drywall some attic bedrooms, so I will add Roxul rock wool insulation before the drywalleros come to do their thing.


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## TreePapa (Jan 15, 2010)

1947 Rambler Ranch House in So. Calif. Walls have cotton insluation. Not the dense cotton insulation you can buy today made of recycled denim, but insubstantial, fluffy paper-backed insulation that reminds me of cotton candy. Prolly has R value of 3 ... maybe. No attic insulation. When we were having improvements done on the house, I tried to get bids on proper attic insulation. Not one contactor would even bid on a proper job - i.e., sealing all openings and penetrations before installing insulation. All they would bid is "wham bam thank you maam" blow in cellulose and leave. With the low pitch roof and limited room in the attic, DIY is outta the question due to my back and knees. Also, house has lath (button board) and plaster throughout, so there was way I'm gonna tear out the walls to reinsulate.

At some point, when $$ permits, I will get more bids on attic insulation. Maybe I can find someone willing to do it right. I'd prefer rockwool to cellulose, if I can find an installer here who works with it. The best thing we haven't done, though, to increase thermal efficiency in our house is to reseal (caulk) all the fixed pane windows (lots of them, nearly floor to ceiling, and part of the character of the house - no, we're NOT replacing the windows, no matter how much money we might have at some point). And to replace the thin paper-like window shades w/ proper insulating curtains.

Mind, all of this really is not critical in the winter - this is so. calif. - but the summer, that's a different story!

Peace,
- Sequoia


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## BucksCoBernie (Jan 16, 2010)

I blew in 35 bags of Cellulose into the attic today. Pretty easy DIY project...a little messy...lots of dust. My attic went from nothing to R-30...cant wait to feel the difference in the house temps.


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## rowerwet (Jan 17, 2010)

I grew up in one, 3 stories, plaster and lath walls, 63 single pane windows, most 8 feet tall, 13' ceilings on the first floor and 10' on the second floor, a converted coal boiler that ran on HHO with radiators on the first floor only, the energy crisis of the '70s. My dad put in a woodstove and while putting in the thimble, he found he could see all the way up the inside of the wall to the attic. we would burn 14 cords of wood or so a winter, and had to sleep with electric blankets all winter.


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## midwestcoast (Jan 21, 2010)

BucksCoBernie said:
			
		

> I blew in 35 bags of Cellulose into the attic today. Pretty easy DIY project...a little messy...lots of dust. My attic went from nothing to R-30...cant wait to feel the difference in the house temps.




I blew about that much into my place in the fall & have felt a big difference. I think my wife had more work cleaning the house after than I did blowing the stuff in!  Small attic in the Cape Code, but I piled in about 20" (~17" settled). I also got into 2 big side attics & found rockwool on backs of walls but nothing on attic floor (1'st flr ceiling)!  The worst detail of old Cape's is the 2'nd floor joists run straight out into the side attics & most builders didn't seal them off, so you've basically got attic air between your 1'st & 2'nd flrs  :-S   I still have 2 little side attics I can't access & I just drilled 2" holes, stuck the hose in & dropped some cellulose in there.  I can tell they still loose heat, so there's more work to be done...
Seal-up your attic access tight with weatherstripping & hook&eye; latches to snug it down. Glue several layers of rigid foam on the back & the hatch will be insulated as well as the rest of the ceiling  :coolsmile:


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