# checking out a house's electrical system



## RustyShackleford (Sep 16, 2021)

Knowing that I'm an electrical/computer engineer who has done a fair amount of wiring on my own house, a friend has asked me to look at the electrical system in the house they just bought to "see if anything looks weird".    They had a standard pre-sale inspection done, but the guy just did some pretty superficial stuff like checking that outlets were grounded and cover plates installed, and added some boiler-plate about having a licensed electrician inspect the system.   There's no reason to believe anything is wrong.   I'm not going to be paid, and I don't intend to assume any liability.  All that being said, I'm wondering what people would suggest I do in spending an hour or so having a look.  Here's what I've thought of so far:

1. Check for correct polarity and grounds using a simple circuit tester (as the pre-sale inspection did).
2. Open up a box or two and see if the wiring seems to have been done "in a workmanlike fashion".
3. Pull the cover off the load-center and see if things look kosher.
4. Turn on most of the big loads and see how much the voltage drops.
5. Note any aluminum wire.
...

TIA.


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## Rusty18 (Sep 16, 2021)

Depends on the age of the house.  Have seen “remodels” that ran Romex out of a new panel right up the attic where it was spliced on original tube and wire.  Speaking of the attic, seems to be a good spot for one feed to branch off 8 different ways and make some (attempt to) wire nut connections that have no chance of fitting in the box.   Another one is multiple branches running back on one neutral (hard to identify in an hour inspection)(should have same number of neutral/ground/circuits, not a guarantee there isnt some funny business in a box down stream but it’s a good start).  I have 12/4 with 3 hot 120’s and a common neutral (thank you previous owner ). since you are gonna have the cover off the panel take an amp clamp to check loads on circuits when you have everything turned on.  And finally the condition of the bus bar in the panel, rotten stabs can lead to a full replacement when the rest of the panel looks good.

good luck!


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## EbS-P (Sep 16, 2021)

What I wish I had done 10 years ago when the house was empty was correctly identify every outlet/fixture to its corresponding breaker.  It would have identified that the kitchen remodel that was done before we bought the house had plugged the 1800w microwave as on an old circuit that had 8 other outlets and ceiling fan and lights.   I and then I hope I would have found that the just used the push-in connectectors  on the back of a 50 year old outlet because the screw terminals were all full.  Had an intermittent m wave for a week then no m wave as it melted the wires in the push-in terminal. 

bigger job than an hour but worth it I think.   I does depend on how many modifications have been made to the original wiring.  Mine is all over the place now. Flipping a breaker is kinda like cow plop bingo.  You know you end up with some poop but your not sure where. 

Evan


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## zrock (Sep 16, 2021)

if i was your friend i would have told the inspector to do a proper inspection and if he was uncomfortable doing the electrical to have a licensed electrician do it...  If he skimped their where else did they skimp? The inspector should have opened up the electrical panel, outlets, and climbed up into the attic and areas looking for wiring and issues... That's what you pay a inspector for. 

Last home inspection i had the inspector did electrical and pointed out half the home was alum wire and a lot of poor connections..  It came down to the house was going to need a total rewire


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## peakbagger (Sep 16, 2021)

Make sure the panel is not a Federal Pacific, they have known issues. Open up the panel and see if someone doubled up hots on individual beakers. The vast majority of breakers are only rated for one wire to be connected.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 2, 2021)

Rusty18 said:


> And finally the condition of the bus bar in the panel, rotten stabs can lead to a full replacement when the rest of the panel looks good.


 Sorry @Rusty18 , but what do you mean by "rotten stabs" ?


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## xman23 (Oct 2, 2021)

I have a few of those "rotten stabs" They are a male blade that the circuit breaker is pushed down on. It's a spring contact. Under load it tends to arc and burn the stab. The result is blinking lights.


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## Rusty18 (Oct 2, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> Sorry @Rusty18 , but what do you mean by "rotten stabs" ?


The part of the bus bar that sticks out and actually makes contact with the breaker. 

The 3 or 4 I’ve seen in residential box’s appeared to be from crap being packed around them and holding moisture and/or providing a very low current path to ground causing that one area to corrode faster than the rest of the box (my opinion).  Shows the same symptoms as a rotten conductor, browns outs under load, sometimes there’s voltage sometimes there isn’t.  When they get that rotten though it will usually break off and come out stuck inside the breaker.


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## Rusty18 (Oct 2, 2021)

See the “stabs” sticking up down the middle?


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## peakbagger (Oct 2, 2021)

Rotten stabs are usually brand specific. It can be made worse by installation practices. The panel should be mounted to a piece of plywood attached to the masonry wall behind it, preferably with spacer behind the plywood to allow air flow. Direct mounted panels on a cold masonry wall  can drive moisture from the wall into the panel and it can condense on the internal components. Low grade copper or copper plating can eventually deteriorate.


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## stoveliker (Oct 2, 2021)

Not an expert, but go in the attic. And stay there for a while. I found multiple pigtail connections that were not taped and not in a box. with insulation stripped so far back that I could touch live wite... And under the fiberglass batts that were in between the joists. Sparks waiting to happen. I put them all in boxes.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 2, 2021)

Thanks !


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## begreen (Oct 3, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> Make sure the panel is not a Federal Pacific, they have known issues.


We say that about Zinsco (Sylvania) panels locally. 

While in the panel, feel each breaker for warmth. Also, check the screw tightness on each breaker and neutral connection. I was surprised at how many loose ones I have found over the years.


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## Rusty18 (Oct 3, 2021)

begreen said:


> We say that about Zinsco (Sylvania) panels locally.
> 
> While in the panel, feel each breaker for warmth. Also, check the screw tightness on each breaker and neutral connection. I was surprised at how many loose ones I have found over the years.


Wadsworth too.


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## fbelec (Oct 6, 2021)

also check the main breaker and the breakers below the main for water stains. if it is wet or there are water stains on the side of the breaker that faces up then those breakers and the main are junk. it would force the home owner to either replace all the circuit breakers or do a panel change. per national electrical code. then first order of business is to check out the service outside. if it is a cable to the top of the meter then make sure the top of the cable where it goes into the meter has uncracked or flexible clay or silicone


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## peakbagger (Oct 6, 2021)

Panel replacements seem to be a popular issue that comes up on home inspections when people are selling homes. Rarely do older homes have clean code compliant electrical panels. 60 Amp services were popular up into the 1960s and at one point in the 80s states were trying to limit home services to 100 Amps max to reduce electric demand.  I know my 200 Amp panel is running short of spaces as I have a lot of 240 volt standard size breakers taking up space. I could use the half size breakers to take up less space on the bus but that does not help with all the wiring run in the panel. Changing out a old panel is not that hard as long as the incoming capacity does not change but in most cases homeowners or code require an upgrade to higher amperage. In that case  the incoming service has to be upgraded and that is above the ability of most homeowners.

I know that when I sold my parents1960s home that the panel was marginal and should have been replaced. I had several offers over asking price so I let the first buyer counter after the inspection knowing that if they came back with a long expensive list I would just call up the next person on the list. I did not get a copy of the report but the panel did not come up. Turned out they hit me up for radon removal. I gave them a discount on their original offer (still over the listing price) in exchange for them signing off for any defect known or unknown to get it over with. The market was not as hot as it is now. No doubt a lot of buyers are eating a lot defects by waiving inspections.   

More than a few folks installing solar are using it as an excuse to upgrade their electrical panel so that they can deduct a portion of it using the solar credit.


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## fbelec (Oct 7, 2021)

it's getting harder and harder to do what the home owner wants and keep one panel to curve their confusion. the half breaker is now going away because if you add anything it has to be powered be a arc fault breaker. they don't make them in half size so they take up a full size spot. and with the size of houses and the amount of circuits they have two panels are needed. i serve one home in concord ma that is over 10,000 square feet the house has 4 panels and they are all full next is a 5th panel. if a customer wants a service upgrade we go from 100 amps to 200 amps just because they wanted to. the electric company usually wants to know if there is a current increase and most times no. now with car chargers there will be. so the increase in current means bigger pole transformers or less houses being feed by that transformer.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 23, 2021)

Ok, I started looking at this yesterday, and it's a setup I've never seen before - not that I've really looked at a lot of houses' electrical systems.  The power comes in underground, to a box mounted on the outside of the house, right up against the brick veneer wall.  The box contains both the meter and a small breaker panel, which has five 2-pole breakers (100A, two 60A, 40A, and 30A).    The wires connected to all these breakers go into the crawlspace - except for the 30A one, which go thru a little box off to the side, and then into the crawlspace.  On the far side of the house is a small panel (sub-panel I guess) containing numerous 1-pole 15 and 20A breakers, labeled for things like outlets and lights in various rooms, plus one 2-pole breaker for the clothes dryer.

So my conjecture is that the 100A 2-pole in the big outside box feeds the sub-panel, and the other ones feed the big loads directly.

I imagine that the unit that the 30A breaker feeds thru is one of those things that allows the POCO to turn high-wattage appliances off to handle peak loads.  And that it controls the water heater.  I don't know how they switch it though, I guess through a high-frequency signal on the power lines ?  Oh, and next to the 30A breaker is a label to the effect that there's a 10-15 minute delay after the power is interrupted.   

I can't figure out what the two 60A ones and the 40A one feed though.  I guess I need to investigate the crawlspace.  The minimum ampacity of the HVAC is only 20A (max 25A) so hopefully none of them feed it directly.   And there are no other big loads that I can identify.  No outbuildings, no EV charger, no well pump, no hot tub.

I'm concerned that the big box is right against masonry (some warned me of that above) but there's no sign of corrosion.  A bigger issue is that the cover, which has two parts - the upper goes over the meter and the lower is hinged and goes over the 2-pole breakers - is a mess, it doesn't close up tight at all, and all the latches are broken, including the POCO's seal for the meter.   So I'm afraid I'll recommend they have that box replaced, and took a wild guess that it'd be about $500.  

Attached are some pix ...


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## peakbagger (Oct 23, 2021)

I think its an easy and good call. That panel is dangerous as its got exposed electrical components. The concern about being up against the brick or concrete was for panels in basements.  I think your price is quite low. When an old panel is replaced, it needs to be brought up to code.  I  dont see a main breaker which I think is required (at least in my area). It could be lot of labor and labor is not cheap. There may be a requirement for AFCI (arch Fault) and GFCI (ground fault)  breakers (not cheap). I do not see a separate neutral and ground bar. Many new 240 volt circuits like dryers and ranges need a 4 wire circuit (2 hots, a neutral and separate ground).  I am unsure if existing circuits have to be upgraded. My guess is the subpanel needs upgrading as most 120 volt circuits now need to be AFCI and GFCI.

BTW its a mix of aluminum and copper wiring, make sure all the connections are rated for aluminum (many appear to be) and all the aluminum connections need to be coated with non oxidizing paste and torqued and re torqued


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## Rusty18 (Oct 23, 2021)

Like he said, from the main panel on any 240v is now 4 wire.  Old instal is still legal (around here) with 3 wire and a remote ground but if you have to change anything out you have to bring it up to current code requirements, which is split neutral and ground from the main panel on hence the 4 wire.  Wire is not cheap. 
Also like peak said there’s a difference between inside panels installed on a block wall and outside panels mounted on a block wall, it likely has offsets stamped in the to get it 1/8” off the block and is sealed up better.  
I definitely think it would be worth the hour or two service call to get an inspector/electrician out there to look that over and get an estimate.  $500 won’t even buy the new hardware if (when) that has to be replaced.  And when they figure out their seal has been broken they will likely get out the fine tooth comb. 
Not a deal breaker (I’ve done err seen worse ) but an estimate for replacement could be used to help price negotiation.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 23, 2021)

They've already moved into the house.

I understand about 4-wire for the 240vac circuits, but don't understand why it's an issue that there aren't separate ground and neutral bars there in the main panel; aren't ground and neutral always bonded in the main panel anyhow ?     Now of course it _is_ an issue if there aren't separate ground and neutral in that subpanel (where all the 120v circuits are).   And if there's not 4-wire (separate ground and neutral) going from the main panel to the subpanel, then clearly that's the case; I need to check for that, but if there is, why isn't it ok that the neutral and ground don't both go to that same bar in the main ?

Also, are you saying that _any_ 240vac circuit now needs to have 4-wire, even if the attached appliance has no neutral ?

I don't believe replacing that panel would trigger all the upgrades mentioned, here.  I asked my AHJ, if I replace MY main panel, do I have to install AFCIs and he said no.


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## peakbagger (Oct 23, 2021)

My non electrician understanding. There is supposed to be only one point in the entire house where the neutral ties to the ground and that is the main panel. The main panel will have a separate ground bar and neutral bar. In the main panel only there usually is a screw that can screw through  the neutral bar that ties to the panel case,  that is called bonding the neutral to the ground. In any subpanels the neutral bar is not bonded.. That means there needs to be four wires from the subpanel to the main panel.  This is where it gets a bit weird if the sub panel is in a seperatestructure. If the subpanel is on separate structure, the recommendation is to drive a secondary ground rod at the subpanel and tie it to the ground going back to the main panel. The weird part is  the ground wire should not be run through the main building, rather it should be routed around the building  and then tying into either the main panel ground or the primary ground.  The reason for keeping things separate is to keep any power flowing through the ground system of the house.

 As mentioned, older appliances and other 240 Volt equipment on occasion needed some 120 v so they just hooked from one hot to ground and that puts some current into the ground bus.  There are exceptions to the need for four wire circuits on 240 circuits and I do not know where the line is drawn. My  is set up for 3 wire 240 volt EV charger no need for a 4 conductor plug.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 23, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> There is supposed to be only one point in the entire house where the neutral ties to the ground and that is the main panel. The main panel will have a separate ground bar and neutral bar.



It seems to me that since you know the ground and neutral bar will be tied together, why separate bars ?   I know in my own house, wired by a professional electrician, and inspected, in 1988, there is only one ground/neutral bar (actually one on each side of the columns of breaker, tied together) and the neutrals and grounds are connected to them indiscriminately.



peakbagger said:


> As mentioned, older appliances and other 240 Volt equipment on occasion needed some 120 v so they just hooked from one hot to ground and that puts some current into the ground bus.  There are exceptions to the need for four wire circuits on 240 circuits and I do not know where the line is drawn. My  is set up for 3 wire 240 volt EV charger no need for a 4 conductor plug.


Yes, many appliances have a neutral and many don't.   My confusion is that I understood some of the above posters to say that ALL 240v circuits are now required to have a neutral (in addition to the ground).


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## fbelec (Oct 24, 2021)

from what i see the 100 amp should be tied into the bottom of the meter and that is your main breaker. the rest should be feed through the back feed 100. the two 60 amp might be separate sub panels or one might be the air conditioning. nothing has to be changed to a arc fault or gfi breaker. even if you change the box it will still be hooked up the same way. the only one that knows why main panels neutral and ground are bonded together is incase you lose a neutral it can run on the ground. any other panel is considered a sub panel and neutral and grounds are isolated. if one of those 60 amp breakers are a sub panel then the wire that feeds the sub panel will need to be 4 wire one being a ground. if the other 60 amp breaker is a out building the if upgraded the sub panel in the out building will need a ground rod. anything that is there now is grandfathered in and nothing needs to be changed. the only 240 volt appliance that need a 4 wire is a sub panel and new stove circuits and new dryer circuit. the other thing i see that is wrong is the piping from underground or elsewhere up against masonry should not be pvc pipe but steel


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## EbS-P (Oct 24, 2021)

The AC compressor is probably on the load control device. It looks much older than what Duke installs now.  Hence the 15 min time out not wanting to turn the compressor on and off and on. Quickly.  Just a guess one 60 amp may be resistive heating strips for the AUX / emergency heat.   Are there natural gas or propane appliances?


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 24, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> The AC compressor is probably on the load control device. It looks much older than what Duke installs now.  Hence the 15 min time out not wanting to turn the compressor on and off and on. Quickly.  Just a guess one 60 amp may be resistive heating strips for the AUX / emergency heat.   Are there natural gas or propane appliances?


Yeah, makes sense.  Let me trace the wire ...



EbS-P said:


> The AC compressor is probably on the load control device. It looks much older than what Duke installs now.  Hence the 15 min time out not wanting to turn the compressor on and off and on. Quickly.  Just a guess one 60 amp may be resistive heating strips for the AUX / emergency heat.   Are there natural gas or propane appliances?


What's there now is a "gaspack" - natural gas furnace with AC unit, and like I said min/max ampacity is 20/25A.   But I think seller replaced it recently, so maybe heatstrips before that.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 24, 2021)

fbelec said:


> from what i see the 100 amp should be tied into the bottom of the meter and that is your main breaker. the rest should be feed through the back feed 100.


Nope, the meter feeds busbars that all five of those 2-pole breakers feed off of.



fbelec said:


> the two 60 amp might be separate sub panels or one might be the air conditioning. nothing has to be changed to a arc fault or gfi breaker. even if you change the box it will still be hooked up the same way. the only one that knows why main panels neutral and ground are bonded together is incase you lose a neutral it can run on the ground. any other panel is considered a sub panel and neutral and grounds are isolated. if one of those 60 amp breakers are a sub panel then the wire that feeds the sub panel will need to be 4 wire one being a ground. if the other 60 amp breaker is a out building the if upgraded the sub panel in the out building will need a ground rod. anything that is there now is grandfathered in and nothing needs to be changed. the only 240 volt appliance that need a 4 wire is a sub panel and new stove circuits and new dryer circuit. the other thing i see that is wrong is the piping from underground or elsewhere up against masonry should not be pvc pipe but steel


Pretty sure PVC is allowed here, but probably supposed to be Schedule 80.

I need to check again, see if wire from main to sub-panel is 4-wire.  I have a feeling it's not.   Don't thinkk there are separate ground and neutral busbars in that subpanel.


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## crstrode (Oct 24, 2021)

As a one time NEC Code instructor, and  contributor to the Code, I can assure you that there is nothing in your photos or description (save for misinterpretations) that is of concern.  This is not a new installation - I'm guessing it was originally installed in the early 1970's.  Old is not necessarily bad, nor is old illegal.  If old was illegal or bad, my age would place me in deep trouble.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Don't be poking around, tugging on wires, or otherwise placing yourself or the seasoned equipment in jeopardy.  

Beware if hiring a "licensed electrician".  They will often have other fish to fry (at the home owner's expense).  These days about all it takes to become licensed is the application fee and a signature of another fellow that has done similar due diligence.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 24, 2021)

crstrode said:


> As a one time NEC Code instructor, and  contributor to the Code, I can assure you that there is nothing in your photos or description (save for misinterpretations) that is of concern.  This is not a new installation - I'm guessing it was originally installed in the early 1970's.


Well, I think that bad cover on the combined meter & main panel box is an issue.   But it could probably be fixed without replacing the box.

What about not having separate neutral and ground in the sub-panel that has all the 120v circuits ?  I thought that was a big no-no.




crstrode said:


> Beware if hiring a "licensed electrician".  They will often have other fish to fry (at the home owner's expense).


Understood.   Probably don't want to ask a "licensed electrician" to fix the cover on that outdoor box.   Just figure out how to do it myself.


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## fbelec (Oct 25, 2021)

crstrode said:


> Beware if hiring a "licensed electrician".  They will often have other fish to fry (at the home owner's expense).  These days about all it takes to become licensed is the application fee and a signature of another fellow that has done similar due diligence.


and what about the 5 years of work time and the 5 years of night school requirement to get your journeyman license?


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## fbelec (Oct 25, 2021)

i used to take my 21 hour code update with a guy who would be turning in his grave if he heard this about licensed electrician ( Joe Ross )


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## crstrode (Oct 25, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> Well, I think that bad cover on the combined meter & main panel box is an issue.   But it could probably be fixed without replacing the box.
> 
> What about not having separate neutral and ground in the sub-panel that has all the 120v circuits ?  I thought that was a big no-no.
> 
> ...


Well, Rusty, it seems you have met all the current requirements to be a licensed electrical contractor.

Go for it.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 25, 2021)

crstrode said:


> Well, Rusty, it seems you have met all the current requirements to be a licensed electrical contractor.
> 
> Go for it.



I actually just called a "licensed electrical contractor", texted her the picture of the coverless box, and she said "it'd be silly to replace the box, I'm sure we can figure out how to get the cover back on securely".    So some of the cynicism about "make work" was misplaced, although given they won't come till a month from now, it's not like they need extra work.  She thought the reason the top of the cover wouldn't go onto the meter properly is that the cover is actually supposed to kinda fit behind the meter; though come to think of it, not sure that makes sense, because it means anyone could just grab the meter and pull it off.

I'm gonna punt on the issue of whether the subpanel has separate ground and neutral.   If it ain't broke ...


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## fbelec (Oct 26, 2021)

just took a second and third look at that setup. that little cover goes over the breakers and there should be a cover for the whole thing and that cover will fit around the meter with a seal from the power company. with that cover on the meter can't be pulled out. if the power company finds that seal cut they will put on a lock so that they have to come out and unlock it if that stuff meaning the circuit breakers are open to the weather than all those breakers are junk per national electrical code. if there is no cover to be found then the meter/breaker combo box has to be replaced. if the town electrical inspector finds out there is no cover he could have the power company shut down that service until it is rectified. in short replace it. the wires that feed the meter look like 200 amp


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 26, 2021)

fbelec said:


> just took a second and third look at that setup. that little cover goes over the breakers and there should be a cover for the whole thing and that cover will fit around the meter with a seal from the power company. with that cover on the meter can't be pulled out. if the power company finds that seal cut they will put on a lock so that they have to come out and unlock it if that stuff meaning the circuit breakers are open to the weather than all those breakers are junk per national electrical code. if there is no cover to be found then the meter/breaker combo box has to be replaced. if the town electrical inspector finds out there is no cover he could have the power company shut down that service until it is rectified. in short replace it. the wires that feed the meter look like 200 amp


Yes, that little cover goes over the breakers and fits on just fine - I just had it removed to be looking at the breaker wiring when the photo was taken.

There is a two-part cover that goes over the whole thing, as you said; it exists, but not shown in my photos, and it is the one that is messed up and won't fit back on properly.   But it is (and has been) on there, so I don't feel the breakers have really been exposed.   Like I said, they think the upper part is supposed to go on _behind_ the meter, and that's why it won't fit on properly.   

Yeah, 200amp I think, the hot leads are 2/0 guage; that's what most of the houses around here are.


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## fbelec (Oct 27, 2021)

can you show me some pictures of the cover? most covers go over the meter and have a screw/with a hole for a seal by the power company. if the cover has a lip that sticks out towards you then the cover goes on first then the meter and a aluminum ring that goes around the lip and the meter and with a seal locks the meter in place.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 27, 2021)

fbelec said:


> can you show me some pictures of the cover? most covers go over the meter and have a screw/with a hole for a seal by the power company. if the cover has a lip that sticks out towards you then the cover goes on first then the meter and a aluminum ring that goes around the lip and the meter and with a seal locks the meter in place.


Don't have pic and access right now.  But yeah, I believe it has a lip that sticks outwards; but I think that ring is missing.   Looked at Milbank website and they appear to still manufacture these boxes.   I believe it's one of these: https://milbankworks.com/products/metering/u5168


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## fbelec (Oct 28, 2021)

the power company may have a ring (that is it's name)


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 15, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> Make sure the panel is not a Federal Pacific, they have known issues.


So, today I checked out another house - the one my other stepson is buying.  And what do you know, it has a Federal Pacific panel.   Mounted outside directly against a brick facade.   Looked real clean though (better than the OP one).   What are the known issues ?

A little research suggests that it's breakers, that fail to trip properly, that is the issue - not the panel itself.   So I guess the issue is whether it's possible to source good breakers to replace these.


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## peakbagger (Nov 15, 2021)

What to do if You Have a Federal Pacific Electric Panel in Your Home
					

If you suspect that you may have a Zinsco Panel, FPE Electrical Panel or any outdated circuit breaker panel in your home you should contact a local...




					www.docelectricalservices.com


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## EbS-P (Nov 15, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> So, today I checked out another house - the one my other stepson is buying.  And what do you know, it has a Federal Pacific panel.   Mounted outside directly against a brick facade.   Looked real clean though (better than the OP one).   What are the known issues ?
> 
> A little research suggests that it's breakers, that fail to trip properly, that is the issue - not the panel itself.   So I guess the issue is whether it's possible to source good breakers to replace these.


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## fbelec (Nov 16, 2021)

man that guy is looooong winded


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## EbS-P (Nov 16, 2021)

fbelec said:


> man that guy is looooong winded


Yep. I have generally found him to be informative and we’ll versed in his trade.   In case you missed the link to his other video.


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## peakbagger (Nov 16, 2021)

One of the houses I grew up in was in a large development that had FP panels in about half the development. No fires but several near misses. It was option early on when folks specified their homes. We had the old fashioned fuse panels with the one way bushings to limit the fuse size. A PITA to upgrade a circuit.


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 16, 2021)

So it looks like maybe one can imply purchase replacement breakers - that fit the panels but are not faulty - and fix the problem that way.


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## peakbagger (Nov 16, 2021)

I think code wise you would need to upgrade to arc fault breakers.


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## EbS-P (Nov 16, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> So it looks like maybe one can imply purchase replacement breakers - that fit the panels but are not faulty - and fix the problem that way.


200 amp service?


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## fbelec (Nov 17, 2021)

in mass (and we work from the national electrical code book) the only time someone has to install a arc fault breaker in place of a older breaker is if the circuit was added on to. meaning a existing circuit that has been there for say kitchen lighting is a regular circuit breaker, as is that is fine. you don't have to change breakers because you changed out the panel, but if you add another light onto the existing lights the circuit breaker has to be upgraded to a arc fault type circuit breaker. or anything new has to be arc fault. the new arc fault circuit breakers are better than the first generation of them but sometimes they trip for no apparent reason, that's why most of us electricians hate using them. and now lets get to the cost. if you have 10 regular circuit breakers to replace that totals roughly 60 dollars. if they are arc fault type the total is 490 dollars


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 17, 2021)

fbelec said:


> in mass (and we work from the national electrical code book) the only time someone has to install a arc fault breaker in place of a older breaker is if the circuit was added on to.


Yes, here too, where I'm thinking of upgrading to 225amp and replacing the panel, the AHJ says I needn't go to AFCI breakers.


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 17, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> 200 amp service?


Yes.


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## peakbagger (Nov 17, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> Yes.


If you want to be "solar ready" put in a 225 amp rated bus panel but put in a 200 Amp main.  It allows more solar panels to be added to the house as a 200 amp bus can only have 20% of the bus rating with PV so 200*20% = 40 AMPs.  Putting in the 225 amp bus lets you go to 45 Amps, a 250 amp bus goes up to 50 amps.


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## EbS-P (Nov 17, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> Yes, here too, where I'm thinking of upgrading to 225amp and replacing the panel, the AHJ says I needn't go to AFCI breakers.


I looked into the residential house fire numbers and decided replacing all my outlets because the old ones plugs were falling out of was lowering my risk enough  to be comfortable not going afci. But I did replace and install smoke detectors in every room


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## fbelec (Nov 18, 2021)

replaced plenty in my time majority were leviton


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 18, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> If you want to be "solar ready" put in a 225 amp rated bus panel but put in a 200 Amp main.  It allows more solar panels to be added to the house as a 200 amp bus can only have 20% of the bus rating with PV so 200*20% = 40 AMPs.  Putting in the 225 amp bus lets you go to 45 Amps, a 250 amp bus goes up to 50 amps.


I already have some solar panels, just 4.32kW.   But I'm doing line-side tap (connecting to the cables that go from meter to main breaker) so loading of the busbars is not an issue.


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 18, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> I looked into the residential house fire numbers and decided replacing all my outlets because the old ones plugs were falling out of was lowering my risk enough  to be comfortable not going afci.


Great idea.  I also have some outlets where the box is set too far back, so the yoke isn't snug against the box, so there's lots of movement when plugging/unplugging.   Apparently that can work the wire connections, and there are spacers you can install, to make the yoke snug against the box.  I think these just go on the screws.   But I can't figure out where to source them.


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## festerw (Nov 18, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> Great idea.  I also have some outlets where the box is set too far back, so the yoke isn't snug against the box, so there's lots of movement when plugging/unplugging.   Apparently that can work the wire connections, and there are spacers you can install, to make the yoke snug against the box.  I think these just go on the screws.   But I can't figure out where to source them.


There's a couple types.









						Smart Fill Spacers 1/4 in. 1-Gang Outlet Box Spacer Extender (5-Pack) SG14-5 - The Home Depot
					

Electrical outlet box spacer extender, single gang, 1/5 in. per piece. Comes in package of 5. Made with 65% recycled material. Perfect for resetting level of outlets after a backsplash install or if existing



					www.homedepot.com
				












						IDEAL Spacer/Shims (Standard Package 5 Packs of 5) 772453 - The Home Depot
					

The IDEAL Spacers are perfect for supporting loose outlets and preventing faceplates from being broken. These spacers help eliminate the need to cut plate screws for GFCI decorator devices when they are



					www.homedepot.com


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## EbS-P (Nov 18, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> Great idea.  I also have some outlets where the box is set too far back, so the yoke isn't snug against the box, so there's lots of movement when plugging/unplugging.   Apparently that can work the wire connections, and there are spacers you can install, to make the yoke snug against the box.  I think these just go on the screws.   But I can't figure out where to source them.


So you can place an afci or afci/outlet on the first one in the the circuit and protect the rest further down the line.  I did this once I should do the rest.  Of the bedrooms.


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## EbS-P (Nov 20, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> So you can place an afci or afci/outlet on the first one in the the circuit and protect the rest further down the line.  I did this once I should do the rest.  Of the bedrooms.


I can confirm that the afci outlet will trip before the breakers on direct short to ground. I was messing with my thermal switch on the blower while not unplugging it.  Hot side hit the metal case and arced.  My outlet reset was 10’ away while the panel was outside.  Very safe. and convenient not to go outside to reset.


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 29, 2021)

So, to followup on my OP ... The "professional electrician" came out and just put back a rusty screw that held the cover on.   I asked if the POCO would be upset that clearly the thing had been open and he said no, because they read the meters remotely (so no one looks at it) and if they don't notice an oddly-low bill, they aren't suspicious.   About $150. minimum charge for a service call I believe.


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 29, 2021)

Meanwhile, a well-regarded company gave a bid on replacing the Federal Pacific panel in the other house.   It was $3500; about $2000 for parts, quoted at roughly double the price I could get 'em from at Home Depot.  And 8 hrs @ $185/hr - reasonable time, but crazy rate.  As far as parts, I guess a markup from DIY price is pretty standard, and the panel is not actually in-stock at the lower price (Siemens 20space/40circuit 200amp outdoor); supply-chain thing I guess.   And of course they wanted to install 11 AFCI breakers at $75 a pop; I re-confirmed that my AHJ does not require AFCI upgrade on a simple panel replacement.

I've VERY tempted to do it myself.   Understanding that it's the most ambitious thing I've tried, and generally not considered appropriate for DIY.     In some ways it's pretty easy; for example, the power comes in underground, so no hassling with risers and weather-head.   The branch circuits all come into the bottom of the panel in 2" PVC conduit from the crawlspace - so no messing with knockouts and staples (I'm not sure if the wires are stapled in the crawlspace, but I don't think that's my concern).   And the ground/neutral bar is near the top of the old panel, so I don't think I'll have wire-length issues.

I even told the AHJ, I know an un-licensed person can only work on their own home, but what if owner gets the permit, naming himself as contractor, and I do the work ?  He said, sure, if you know the guy well; hey, if he sues me, it's going to come out of his inheritance, at least indirectly ...


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## fbelec (Nov 30, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> I even told the AHJ, I know an un-licensed person can only work on their own home, but what if owner gets the permit, naming himself as contractor, and I do the work ?  He said, sure, if you know the guy well; hey, if he sues me, it's going to come out of his inheritance, at least indirectly ...


lol.         just don't blow up the underground cable very expensive fix


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 30, 2021)

fbelec said:


> lol.         just don't blow up the underground cable very expensive fix


I realize you're kinda joking, but how might I do that ?  Shorting any two of them together, I suppose.   But the connections to the line side of the meter base are the POCO's responsibility, right ?   - seems like they'd have to be, as I can't de-energize the wires from the transformer..  I could short them on the load side of the meter, but would that short-circuit current get back through the meter to damage the underground wires ?   Also, I suspect the transformer has some kind of fuse.   BTW, rural sub-division, so dedicated transformer for each house.


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## EbS-P (Nov 30, 2021)

Check out the plug on neutral panels seems like the way to go.


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 30, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> Check out the plug on neutral panels seems like the way to go.


Yeah, those look cool.   Although I don't fancy putting many, if any, AFCI breakers in; and for the necessary GFCIs, using outlets instead of breakers.   I have Siemens in my house, so will probably stick with them.    One thing about these plug-on neutral types: I believe the enclosures are not as tall, therefore a bit more of a pain to run all your conductors ... my house's 20-space/40-circuit one is 30" tall, whereas the equivalent PN one is only 27".


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## EbS-P (Nov 30, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> Yeah, those look cool.   Although I don't fancy putting many, if any, AFCI breakers in; and for the necessary GFCIs, using outlets instead of breakers.   I have Siemens in my house, so will probably stick with them.    One thing about these plug-on neutral types: I believe the enclosures are not as tall, therefore a bit more of a pain to run all your conductors ... my house's 20-space/40-circuit one is 30" tall, whereas the equivalent PN one is only 27".


I do wonder this time of year how many living room fires could prevented by AFCI protection?  Family lost about of their 3/4 million $ house  yesterday here in town.


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## fbelec (Dec 1, 2021)

if the fire was started at the tree arc fault wouldn't have made a difference. that tree (most likely real) would have went up start to finish about 30 seconds to a minute. if anybody out there thinks i'm exaggerating find a christmas tree and start a fire outdoors then throw it on the fire. 
as far as the meter in order to have the meter deenergized call your power company a few days ahead of when you plan to do it and they will turn you off. don't ever short out wires to blow the fuse or breaker. if in the house you could take out a splice and wire nut and if you find it it most likely will take you hours if it's not a buried box. then you are r maybe running a new line. if you short the wires on the line side of the meter taking them off live (if they touch the meter box they short) most likely you'll blow out the underground wires before you take out the transformer or fuse on the high voltage side of the transformer and if it all shorts together before the fuse blows out you might have 13800 volts come into the house where it blows everything you have. and if they find out it's you you pay for everything bad including the transformer and lines. they tell you that the lines to the meter are them but when it all comes down to the brass tacks you pay for it. round here they charge about 600 dollars to do the shut off and energize but well worth it.


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## RustyShackleford (Dec 1, 2021)

fbelec said:


> if the fire was started at the tree arc fault wouldn't have made a difference. that tree (most likely real) would have went up start to finish about 30 seconds to a minute. if anybody out there thinks i'm exaggerating find a christmas tree and start a fire outdoors then throw it on the fire.
> as far as the meter in order to have the meter deenergized call your power company a few days ahead of when you plan to do it and they will turn you off. don't ever short out wires to blow the fuse or breaker. if in the house you could take out a splice and wire nut and if you find it it most likely will take you hours if it's not a buried box. then you are r maybe running a new line. if you short the wires on the line side of the meter taking them off live (if they touch the meter box they short) most likely you'll blow out the underground wires before you take out the transformer or fuse on the high voltage side of the transformer and if it all shorts together before the fuse blows out you might have 13800 volts come into the house where it blows everything you have. and if they find out it's you you pay for everything bad including the transformer and lines. they tell you that the lines to the meter are them but when it all comes down to the brass tacks you pay for it. round here they charge about 600 dollars to do the shut off and energize but well worth it.


Yes, I'm remembering when I had them shut me down when I hooked-up my solar (using line-side taps on the cables from meter to main breaker) the guy who came out wanted to know if he should just pull meter or de-energize at the transformer - I chose to former, since I wasn't going to mess in meter box.

For this, I would have 'em disable at transformer, since I WILL be working in meter box, replacing the aluminum cables which go from meter to main breaker with copper.   But they don't charge at all to do this ($600 is shocking  ) - benefits of it being a coop, I guess.


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## RustyShackleford (Dec 7, 2021)

Maybe I could veer into a question about panel neutrals and grounds, and planning my panel replacement.   First off, I totally understand why grounds ad neutrals must be "bonded" together in the main panel, but not in sub-panels; we needn't discuss that.   My confusion is in _how_.

Apparently most panels, including Siemens which I have, have a green "bonding screw".   If appropriate, apparently you drive this screw in, and this connects the neutral bar to the metal enclosure, which is already connected to the ground bar(s).   Is that all that makes this very important connection ?   One screw ?  Does it at least go into a threaded hole in the back of the enclosure, or does it simply gouge into the sheet metal ?  If I want to add an add'l ground bar - for example, near the bottom of the panel in case my ground wires are too short on a panel replacement - can I simply screw the new ground bar into the enclosure with sheet metal screws, and I'm good to go ?

See the attached picture of the replacement panel I will probably use.   The neutral bars are alongside the columns of breakers; I believe they are connected to each other, and one has the bonding screw.    There are two ground bars near the top along each side.   These are great if your branch circuits are entering from the top of the panel, but ALL of mine are coming in from the bottom, in a piece of 2" PVC conduit; hence I'd like to add a ground bar at the bottom.   Perhaps  could install the panel upside-down (with the main breaker at the bottom), but it's not clear if the  opening there (marked "HS hub provision")  can accommodate the existing 2" PVC conduit which contains all the branch-circuit romex.   Thoughts ?


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## peakbagger (Dec 7, 2021)

I beleive you are correct, its just a #10 screw that bonds it. On the other hand my panel has a #6 wire running from the ground bar to the neutral bar. Remember there should be no current running through this bond so the connection does not need to be large. I cannot comment on putting the panel upside down but you can add neutral and ground bars as long as they bonded to the other ones.


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## RustyShackleford (Dec 7, 2021)

Another issue is space - for wire bending, add'l ground bar, and such.   Check this screen-grab from the Siemens catalog.  Note for the 30-space/48-circuit boxes, the "outside" version is 5" taller, whereas the "inside" versions fits 10 more "spaces" (5" vertically) into the same 30" height of my current 20-space/40-circuit box.   So I'll be tempted to use the outside box even for my indoor situation.


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## RustyShackleford (Dec 12, 2021)

Seems like code initially called for AFCI in bedrooms, but now virtually everywhere.   I guess the idea was, with decent smoke detectors, only a fire in bedroom is likely to really get you.    Good compromise, not being required to upgrade by code, might be to use them for bedroom outlet circuits.


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## EbS-P (Dec 12, 2021)

RustyShackleford said:


> Seems like code initially called for AFCI in bedrooms, but now virtually everywhere.   I guess the idea was, with decent smoke detectors, only a fire in bedroom is likely to really get you.    Good compromise, not being required to upgrade by code, might be to use them for bedroom outlet circuits.


All 240 volt appliances now have to be gfci protected.     100$ + for a breaker.


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## RustyShackleford (Dec 12, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> All 240 volt appliances now have to be gfci protected.     100$ + for a breaker.


Wow, that seems a bit silly.

Like I said, my AHJ does not require _anything_ for a simple panel replacement - I'm just wondering what would be prudent from a safety perspective.


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## EbS-P (Dec 12, 2021)

I like watching  fire response videos on YouTube.  From what I can see is attached garages are very significant ignition source.  Candles and  cigarettes  and cooking fires.   Get a shed for all flammables don’t burn candles or smoke get an air fryer. 

Smoke detectors. Follow code for for sinks and tubs — 6 ft from sink and tub (2020 NEC defines 6 ft as if a 6 ft cord can reach the sink)  afci living rooms and bedrooms.    

Fuel load in homes and more open floor plans has decreased the survivability time to about half what it was 30 years ago.    Remodels to our house fall right in line with that.  Take out the door to the basement take down as many walls as we could.  And cram lots of stuff inside.     I get the point of the new code requirements  and to some point just think they are trying to prevent  stupid decisions from injuring people (like all ceiling box’s must support 50 lbs and the rating be stamped on the box). 

To be honest the cost of doing a panel to code is probably about the same as my home owners deductible.  20 breakers at 100$ each.  

My thoughts are Use common sense if in doubt which way to go always choose the safest option.


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## fbelec (Dec 13, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> All 240 volt appliances now have to be gfci protected.     100$ + for a breaker.


if you can find them


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## fbelec (Dec 13, 2021)

using arc fault everywhere may be well and good but sometimes they trip for no apparent reason then reset then trip again for no reason. they also sometimes don't work on existing circuits. most electricians hate them for the nuisance tripping. we are called in to repair then wind up running a new line to the thing and the circuit still trips because of something else down the line


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