# Hot Water Heater Advice - EDIT



## TresK3 (Jul 9, 2020)

Got up this morning to a rusty puddle at the bottom of the water heater.  All of the fittings, valves, drain line, etc. look good and I can see water under the unit (there's a slight gap), so I assume the tank is leaking.  This water heater is about 25 yrs old, 82 gallon capacity (that's not a typo... 82 gallons on the tag), made by Sears.

I figure I'm looking at a replacement and have a couple of questions, mostly about replacement options. However, first... how critical is this? I will do it very soon, but can I wait until the weekend (it's Thursday PM as I write this)? The leak is a slow seep, and it flows directly to the floor drain, about 3 ft away. Or should I try to get it done today or tomorrow? Or do I need to shut off the water line and electric ASAP?

Now about options: It's just my wife and I at home.  We have a newer dish washer (Bosch) and 5 yr old, front load washing machine. Low flow shower heads.  Neither of us take long showers, though she will take a bath occasionally.  We rarely run more than one major item plus a sink at any one time.  We are on city water.  We live in southern Ohio, so a moderate amount of input cooling in the winter.  The current heater is electric, on a 240 V line with 2 X 30 amp breakers (updated service panel).  There is no gas to the house.   House heat comes from wood (of course) and an oil burner baseboard system.   There is no AC. 

After spending the past few hours on the interwebs, I've pretty much decided against a tankless.  Doesn't seem like there's a lot of benefit, except for smaller size, and some drawbacks.  

Now I'm looking comparing a hybrid with a more traditional type tank heater.  Pretty much settling on the 40 or 50 gal size, depending on brand/model.  The hybrids claim huge energy savings, and with local and national rebates, I can get about $600 back.  That brings the cost to within a few hundred of standard types.  Main question is would I get much real increased efficiency?  The heater will be in the basement, with the furnace and washer/dryer, but that room never does get very warm.  I'm guessing low 70's during the hottest parts of summer (like now) and a bit lower the rest of the year.  When the furnace is running, that room can be pleasantly warm, but never  hot.    Any guess on how  much actual "heat  pumping" we would achieve?  

Also, what about this Rheem Marathon water heater?  The price seems high... what am I getting?

Other thoughts, ideas, suggestions?

Thanks!


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## brenndatomu (Jul 9, 2020)

Sounds like there is no reason that you need to fix it tonight...main risk would be flooding...but if you have it in an unfinished basement, with a drain nearby, no big deal really.
A 40-50 gallon should serve you just fine.
I like my Richmond (Rheem) HPWH.





						Richmond® 50 Gallon Electric Water Heater with Hybrid Heat Pump any good?
					

Thinking about replacing my 50 gallon electric WH with one of these units, been looking at these for a while now...mine is working fine, but is of an unknown age...probably at least 25 YO. I usually run em 'til they blow, but with the sale right now, they don't get any cheaper than this, I'm...




					www.hearth.com


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## johneh (Jul 9, 2020)

You got a good life out of your old tank. I Dought you will 
have a major leak before the weekend. I looked at several different 
water heaters and went back to a 40 gal. electric. Cheapest and when
 I replaced it I was 65 it will outlast me and even if you are young the cost 
of 3 basic tanks is less than 1 of the expensive energy-efficient tanks and 
they all last about the same length of time. To save, our tank is on a timmer 
4 am to 7 am and 7 pm to midnight when our hydro is cheapest We do launder,
shower. dishes and baths during those times


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## TresK3 (Jul 9, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Sounds like there is no reason that you need to fix it tonight...main risk would be flooding...but if you have it in an unfinished basement, with a drain nearby, no big deal really.
> A 40-50 gallon should serve you just fine.
> I like my Richmond (Rheem) HPWH.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the link.  I'd missed that thread.  I like the idea of not needing a dehumidfier in the basement - we run one constantly in the summer.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 9, 2020)

johneh said:


> I replaced it I was 65 it will outlast me and even if you are young the cost
> of 3 basic tanks is less than 1 of the expensive energy-efficient tanks and
> they all last about the same length of time


From what I understand, since they did away with the old glass lined tanks, you are lucky to get much beyond your warranty period. 
And my HPWH was only about twice the price of a "best" model basic electric...and for another $70 I gained 10 years on the warranty (total of 12) I think the "best" model electric came with a 6 year warranty.


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## MTY (Jul 10, 2020)

How stable is your power supply?  I'd ask myself that question prior to buying any appliance that contained electronic circuitry.  Here, electronic appliances, including water heaters, are not going to last long if not protected in some manner.  The power can be up and down several times in a matter of minutes.


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## peakbagger (Jul 10, 2020)

Water heaters are usually "murdered by" neglect rather than dying a natural death.  Dependent on the water supply, they need sediment drained out of the bottom every few years, if you wait too long the valves fill up with crap and may not open. The typical drain valves are cheap plastic that can be replaced with a more durable valve. The sediment can cause corrosion cells and rot out the lining.

The second big item is the anode rods need changing. The length the anodes last is directly dependent on the water quality. The anodes corrode preferentially to the tank lining and other components, once the anode goes, the heater is on a death curve. The anode can be replaced and are available at some hardware stores and on onine. Its takes a big pipe wrench and the right size socket and breaker bar to remove it especially the first time (teflon tape on the threads solves that on future changes). Its on the top of the tank and may require removing any added insulation blanket.  The anode is close to the height of the tank. Many builders, plumbers and homeowners install heaters without enough length above it to remove the anode. For these cases they sell "hot dog" anodes which are sections of anode connected by flexible stainless steel cable. The old anode is pulled up as far as it can go, then its grabbed with a pair of vice grips and then the section above the vice grip if cut off with a hacksaw, then repeated until the old one is out. The new hot dog version is just fed down the hole and then screwed into the nozzle.  

Do these two tasks routinely every few years and you may get 30 to 40 years off a water heater. The anodes life varies dramatically, I changed my first one after 10 years and now just check it every 5. Other people with agressive water may need one every three years. 

A good quality household surge supressor can make a big difference in power surges  from the utility. Note I say good quality. Many have too high a clamp voltage. They may keep the wiring from bursting into flame after a power surge but the electronics will be long fried. The best I know of is a Midnight Solar SPD. If you have Delta brand can type, its clamp voltage is way too high to protect electronics. If the local power grid is set up poorly and there is consistently or intermittent low voltage events that can be hard on cheap electronics but quality equipment should be designed to handle these droops.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 10, 2020)

Most people don't realize that surge surpressors have a lifespan too...get used up, don't last forever...


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## SpaceBus (Jul 10, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Most people don't realize that surge surpressors have a lifespan too...get used up, don't last forever...


Thanks, I did not know this!


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## peakbagger (Jul 10, 2020)

Most of the them had LEDs on them, usually a green and red, if the green goes away it will still transmit power and work like normal it just will not clamp a surge event.


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## blades (Jul 10, 2020)

Surges and GARBAGE on the line - for electronics the garbage is the killer more than the surge. non of your electronics are built with adequate surge protection and very little if any filtering for Noise ( garbage ) fluorescents cause a lot of noise.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 10, 2020)

blades said:


> Surges and GARBAGE on the line - for electronics the garbage is the killer more than the surge. non of your electronics are built with adequate surge protection and very little if any filtering for Noise ( garbage ) fluorescents cause a lot of noise.


We had to put a standard bulb back in the light fixture in our front foyer...the LED I had in there made the radio almost unusable.


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## TresK3 (Jul 10, 2020)

Thanks for all the info.  I've never monitored it specifically, but I think the electric is fairly stable.  Our lights don't flicker or dim much.  We do lose electricity fairly often (1-2X per year), but that tends to be an all or none event.  

I've narrowed it down to an AO Smith unit (Lowes) and a Richmond (Menard's).  Fairly similar price, fairly similar specs.

Do I need to install an expansion tank? The house was built in 1961 and as far as I know, does not have a backflow preventer. There is not an expansion tank on the current water heater, but there is one on the baseboard system.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 10, 2020)

TresK3 said:


> The house was built in 1961 and as far as I know, does not have a backflow preventer. There is not an expansion tank on the current water heater, but there is one on the baseboard system.


There may be a backflow preventer/checkvalve built in to the city's water meter...if there is, you will want to put an expansion tank on the WH.
Does the AO Smith have a screen where you can access the HPWH sensors? I like being able to see what's going on in there...but that's just me. 
Also, is the AO Smith as quiet as the Richmond? Last I knew the Rheem/Richmond was hard to beat on sound level in that price range.
Menards has the 11% sale going on now...when I bought mine they had an additional sale price on it too...they generally seem to do that about once per year...and its about this time of year IIRC...


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## TresK3 (Jul 10, 2020)

Looks like I'm going to get the Richmond.  Menard's does currently have their 11% rebate, which is a good thing.  I'll get money from the federal government, and our local utility is also giving rebates to people who install hybrid units.

I'm going to install an expansion tank, but the meter is about 1/10th of a mile from the house, so I do wonder if that would provide enough "room" for the water to expand, if needed?


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## TresK3 (Jul 10, 2020)

Thanks for the thoughts.  I ended up with the Richmond (Rheem) 50 gallon unit from Menards and an expansion tank.  I started a separate thread with some questions on the expansion tank install.

On the heater itself:  It doesn't look like it comes with a handle for the drain valve.  What did you do about that?  Also, it looks like there are lots of options on plumbing it in.  What do you think about long braided line from close to the ceiling, down to where the inlet/outlet are?  Or should I run copper down closer to the actual inlet/outlet and shorter braided line?  Or attach PEX to the copper at the ceiling?  Or make it up with used paper towel tubes?


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## Woodspliter (Jul 10, 2020)

I just installed one in my house these things are great I  went with a expansion tank


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## TresK3 (Jul 10, 2020)

Woodspliter said:


> I just installed one in my house these things are great I  went with a expansion tank


So it looks like you don't have anything supporting the expansion tank... is that correct?  Also, did you plumb both of the condensation lines, or just the larger one?


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## brenndatomu (Jul 10, 2020)

TresK3 said:


> On the heater itself: It doesn't look like it comes with a handle for the drain valve. What did you do about that?


Nothing...cresent wrench will do the trick when needed.


TresK3 said:


> What do you think about long braided line from close to the ceiling, down to where the inlet/outlet are? Or should I run copper down closer to the actual inlet/outlet and shorter braided line? Or attach PEX to the copper at the ceiling?


Any of that should be fine...I'd probably lean toward the copper or pex though...


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## Woodspliter (Jul 11, 2020)

Just used pipe hangers for the supply and expansion tank. There is only one condensate drain on my unit and I haven't decided what I'm going to do with that yet I was just thinking of drilling a hole in the floor I have a bucket under it now and after a week and a half it only made like 2.5 gallons on condensation from a cold start up


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## peakbagger (Jul 11, 2020)

Woodspliter said:


> Just used pipe hangers for the supply and expansion tank. There is only one condensate drain on my unit and I haven't decided what I'm going to do with that yet I was just thinking of drilling a hole in the floor I have a bucket under it now and after a week and a half it only made like 2.5 gallons on condensation from a cold start up


There are electric pump units for these and AC units that will pump the condensate up to drain. Its close to distilled water.


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## Woodspliter (Jul 11, 2020)

Yeah I know, just one more thing to run. I kind of just like the simplicity of a hole in the floor.


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## TresK3 (Jul 11, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> There are electric pump units for these and AC units that will pump the condensate up to drain. Its close to distilled water.


Draining the condensate will be simple because there's a wash sink on the same wall, about 4 feet away.


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## TresK3 (Jul 11, 2020)

Somewhere  I saw one plumbed with shut off valves on both hot and cold.  What's the benefit of one on the hot side?


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## Woodspliter (Jul 11, 2020)

Yeah I think it's just the right way to do it with shut off for both sides


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## Highbeam (Jul 12, 2020)

TresK3 said:


> Somewhere  I saw one plumbed with shut off valves on both hot and cold.  What's the benefit of one on the hot side?



When you change the heater out you can avoid draining either hot or cold plumbing systems. 

I only put the valve on the cold inlet because my water heater is not in a basement. I also put my expansion tank right on top of the water tank with a tee. I installed the cheap expansion tank just in case since I am on a well with 4-80 gallon expansion tanks but what if some fool shuts a valve?


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## brenndatomu (Jul 12, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> I am on a well with 4-80 gallon expansion tanks but what if some fool shuts a valve?


Community well?
If not...kinda limits who that fool could be...


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## Highbeam (Jul 12, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Community well?
> If not...kinda limits who that fool could be...



I did mean the fool would be me! I am on a shared well though so in theory, the tanks could be shut off without my knowledge. I also look at the little tank as a water hammer arrestor for when some fool slams a valve shut. More cushion is good. Those washing machine valves shut hard.

Mine is on the cold line in.


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## Woodspliter (Jul 15, 2020)

That's a expansion tank for the hot water, because water expands when it's heated. It could help Cushion the pipe hammer form the washer machine. I know mines a lot quieter but I replaced some pipes and all the pipe hangers


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## TresK3 (Jul 16, 2020)

Got it in.  One of the fittings gave me fits trying to solder onto the older pipe, but I finally got that tight.  Nice water heater!  I'll try to post pictures tomorrow.

Thanks all - as usual, this forum is great!


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 17, 2020)

You will like the dehumidifying feature ,i dont think most people consider this. that will save you moneyas well . In some case i think it woul dcompletely eliminate the need for a seperate dehumidifier. My dehumidifier runs about 75 to 85% less since i got my HPWH.  But we do use a lot of HW  so it runs a lot.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 17, 2020)

Seasoned Oak said:


> You will like the dehumidifying feature ,i dont think most people consider this. that will save you moneyas well . In some case i think it woul dcompletely eliminate the need for a seperate dehumidifier. My dehumidifier runs about 75 to 85% less since i got my HPWH.  But we do use a lot of HW  so it runs a lot.


I havent fired my dehumidifier up this year yet...I'm saying I won't need to either, because it has already been really hot and humid out, basement is fine.


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## TresK3 (Jul 18, 2020)

So here's the finished project.  It's heating water and dehumidifying the basement like a champ!

One mistake: I didn't install a T with a screw in plug at the top of the condensate line. That would have allowed periodic flushing/disinfecting that portion of PVC. Guess I can always add it later, if it starts to grow things.


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## Highbeam (Jul 21, 2020)

Is that 1/2” copper?


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## TresK3 (Jul 26, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Is that 1/2” copper?


It is.  that's how the original one was plumbed.  Problem?


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## Highbeam (Jul 26, 2020)

TresK3 said:


> It is.  that's how the original one was plumbed.  Problem?



My current older house was also 1/2” copper to the water heater. I thought it was wierd and expected 3/4 to match the water heater and the flex lines. I replumbed the house and used 3/4 up to the manifolds including to and from the water heater.


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## begreen (Jul 26, 2020)

I would keep an eye on those braided stainless lines in the future. We had one fail with a pinhole leak that we didn't discover for a couple of days. It sprayed water over all sorts of boxes, wine case, records, etc. and made an awful mess. Now I won't use them on the hw heater.


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## Highbeam (Jul 27, 2020)

begreen said:


> I would keep an eye on those braided stainless lines in the future. We had one fail with a pinhole leak that we didn't discover for a couple of days. It sprayed water over all sorts of boxes, wine case, records, etc. and made an awful mess. Now I won't use them on the hw heater.



For sure, the stainless steel corrugated flex hoses are great.


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## begreen (Jul 27, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> For sure, the stainless steel corrugated flex hoses are great.


Yes, I went back to the corrugated type after that episode.


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## TresK3 (Jul 30, 2020)

begreen said:


> Yes, I went back to the corrugated type after that episode.


They don't look terribly expensive.  Does anyone know if they come in longer than 18" lengths?  The cold in is at the bottom of the heater and I put the connection up top, to make it easier to slide the heater in and out.


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## begreen (Jul 30, 2020)

TresK3 said:


> They don't look terribly expensive.  Does anyone know if they come in longer than 18" lengths?  The cold in is at the bottom of the heater and I put the connection up top, to make it easier to slide the heater in and out.


I have seen 24" lengths.


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## TresK3 (Aug 4, 2020)

begreen said:


> I have seen 24" lengths.


Thanks.  I was able to find those, too.  I'm going to have to extend the copper lines quite a bit to make a 24" hose work on either hot or cold side.


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## paulnlee (Aug 23, 2020)

Rather than start new I'll ask here. Bradford White gas, no ignitor glow. Schematic shows a 24v xfmr so I'm assuming 24v to ignitor. Was getting maybe 9v. After several unpluggings the ignitor finally glowed and fired up. What happened?


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## brenndatomu (Aug 23, 2020)

paulnlee said:


> What happened?


Female ignitor...just needed a little foreplay before it got hot...


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