# Ideal Setup For Pole Building Shop/Living Quarters



## Slick85 (Sep 17, 2013)

Hi all.  Great site you have here.  So glad I've found this place.  My fiancee and I are in the process of designing and then building a pole building shop with attached living quarters.  Right now we are leaning towards the size range of 40x80x20 with around 30 feet of it finished(2 story).  I am looking for opinions on what would be the best way to heat this space with wood as fuel.  My family farms and has several acres of timber which we cut wood off of every year.  My dad and granpa have 3 Hardy stoves between them.  We burn a LOT of wood.  Not knowing any better I was looking into adding a Hardy to my future building, but found out that my state(Indiana) no longer allows the old style OWB.  It sounds like this could be a blessing in disguise.ha 

From my limited reading here, it seems as low an indoor gasifier boiler is much more efficient and will burn substantially less wood than what I am used to with the Hardys.  This would be amazing.  I may even be able to convert my dad and grandpa from their Hardys! 

I'm not against adding a seperate storage building attached to my building.  Don't think I would want the boiler on the inside of the shop, unless you all could talk me into it?  I have looked into radiant heat in the concrete slab and that sounds like that is a good option.  Thoughts on that?  Would a Garn Jr. type boiler lend itself well to this application?  Thanks in advance for the help.


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## mikefrommaine (Sep 17, 2013)

Unless you get a gasification boiler with lambda controls you'll probably burn just as much wood as a typical owb.

(don't shoot the messenger, just repeating what I heard)


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 17, 2013)

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/how-hungry-is-your-gasifier.113832/


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## Slick85 (Sep 17, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Unless you get a gasification boiler with lambda controls you'll probably burn just as much wood as a typical owb.
> 
> (don't shoot the messenger, just repeating what I heard)


 
So I take it the garn doesn't fit into this category?  Can you give me some examples of a unit like you mention?  I assume this will substantially add to the cost?


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## Slick85 (Sep 17, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER:  I have been looking at that thread, thanks.  What wood burning option would make the most sense for a setup like mine?


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## nrcrash (Sep 17, 2013)

Slick-  Don't pay attention to Mike, he's just has some lambda control envy.  He won't admit it but he wishes he could retro fit his biomass with some lambda controls.....  unfortunately he can't, so he'll be unhappy little ball of hate until his biomass dies and he upgrades to something with lambda controls.


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## maple1 (Sep 17, 2013)

I would look into an indoor gasifier with storage. That could either be incorprated with the boiler like the Garn, or separate. Also keep in mind you might not be able to put the boiler in the shop - fumes & flames are a bad mix. but you could maybe partition off a place for it with its own separate outside entry.

Within that the possibilities are, well, there's lots of them.

Maybe Mike can share details of his V-Gun


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 17, 2013)

What State do you live?


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## stee6043 (Sep 17, 2013)

On occasion I feel like I'm walking down a middle school hallway around here.  Weird flashbacks to be having...

If I could break into the "my air jordans are better than your pumps" debate I will offer the following:

If you're building new I'd consider investing heavily in insualtion and all the things that go along with it.  If you go over-the-top on insulation, windows, doors, etc. you may find yourself in a position to heat that new building with a 100W lightbulb after it's all said and done (slight exageration, but pumps on your shoes will change your life). 

Consider how solar gain can be used in your building design to suplement heat.  Consider using low temp emitters everywhere possible.  And make that hog of a building R200 top to bottom! 

Just my two cents.  I just heard the bell ring so I better get to it...I just wish I remembered where my locker was.


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## Slick85 (Sep 17, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER - I'm located in Indiana.  Maple1 - That would be my plan, build an attachment to the main building, if the storage was built in like the Garn.  What about a setup with the storage in the main shop with the boiler located close by in another attached(but seperated) portion of the building? 
stee6043 - I plan to spray foam the entire structure.  Anyone have any realistic guesstimates as to the amount of wood used with a gasifier vs. a Hardy(or similar)?  Is what I am planning economical vs. conventional heating?  Will the payback be there?


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## Slick85 (Sep 17, 2013)

Keep in mind it would be essentially "free" wood.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 17, 2013)

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/up-close-with-a-garn-jr.113856/


Here is a comparison for you.


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## woodsmaster (Sep 17, 2013)

Hello, yes a indoor gasser is a lot more efficient than a Hardy. My insurance wouldn't let me put mine in the shop. I was going to put it in a partitioned area so I could get any heat loss from the boiler in the building during the winter and vent the room outdoors in the summer if I wanted to heat water for pool or domestic.  radiant is nice heat, but you cant change the temp fast with it and then you dont have duct work to add central air unless u put it in just for the air. I would insulate the slab whether you go radiant or not. I built a shed for mine and love it like that. No mess or smoke in the shop or house. I have a cord of wood inside next to it and 5 cord just outside the door right where I split it.


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## Slick85 (Sep 17, 2013)

Good information woodsmaster, thanks.  That is something to think about with the radiant heat, as far as still needing the duct work for air conditioning.  Would geothermal be a worthwhile option?  I understand that can cool as well...


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## mikefrommaine (Sep 17, 2013)

nrcrash said:


> so he'll be unhappy little ball of hate until his biomass dies


Way to attack the messenger.

Let's just say that when certain salesmen  are at the fairs they like to hype certain aspects of their boilers beyond all credible belief.

Kind of like this guy
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/LWLfBXbu7Io?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## flyingcow (Sep 17, 2013)

Slick85 said:


> Good information woodsmaster, thanks.  That is something to think about with the radiant heat, as far as still needing the duct work for air conditioning.  Would geothermal be a worthwhile option?  I understand that can cool as well...




Radiant is nice, if you heat the area all the time. Cement slab takes a long time to heat and cool off. I have a truck garage that i only heat when I need to. Unit heater no radiant slab. As noted above, good idea to insulate slab anyways.

If you would like cooling options, try http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/?u...and+Residential&utm_term=mitsubishi+heat+pump one of these, or fujistu makes them also. I just had the mitsu unit installed. Pretty efficient and simple. Throws some very good heat too.


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## heaterman (Sep 17, 2013)

A couple things about the Garn........We have put several in garage type areas with no issues code or otherwise because it is essentially a sealed combustion unit. All air for the fire comes from outside the building when it's burning and unless you open the door with a fire in it the flame is never exposed to the inside environment. Check with your own insurance company and local code people because the design of the Garn introduces a somewhat gray area to the rule about wood burners in a garage and their interpretation may vary from what we have found here. A Garn is also sidewall vent so with your building height you are going to save some serious dough on Class A chimney for a typical gasser. 

Lambda controls......They have their place but in a batch burn unit like a Garn they really don't increase efficiency all that much. When you're starting out with a piece of equipment that runs 80% at minimum there just isn't much room for improvement.
On any cordwood burner that cycles the fire on/off to maintain a water temperature setpoint, yes.....a Lambda controlled unit will give you a couple points of efficiency and a cleaner burn. Lot's of testing by various agencies has shown that so it's not a matter of dispute in my book.
For a batch burn set up like a Garn or another gasser with adequate storage to consume the entire load of wood, it really doesn't gain you much.


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## Slick85 (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanks for the link to the mitsu unit.  That could work out really well in our new "bouse".  What was the cost on the Mitsubishi if you don't mind?  Thanks.


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## nrcrash (Sep 17, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Way to attack the messenger.
> 
> Let's just say that when certain salesmen  are at the fairs they like to hype certain aspects of their boilers beyond all credible belief.
> 
> ...





LOVE that video!  The same woods been burning for 5 days!  I guess I've found my next boiler 

But I fail to see what that video has to do with bashing lambda controls......  They are a nice option, but won't keep the wood burning for 5 days like the Papa Bear[/quote]


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## maple1 (Sep 17, 2013)

Wonder what ol' Larry is up to these days....


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## __dan (Sep 17, 2013)

Radiant heated slab. If t were me, I would kick myself if I poured the slab without it. Minimum 2" rigid foam under the slab, more is better. I did 2" and would do 4" if I was pouring today. Be sure to do vapor barrier and thermal break the edges. Insulate the building envelope as much as possible. I would do 2" foam again under the siding minimum.

Inside gasifier with storage, outside wood storage. In your application you may be able to do a separate inside boiler room with its own door to the outside, at grade, to bring in the wood. That would be sweet. A Garn could be good for your application, but with the radiant slab and storage, you would have a wide choice of the inside gasifier boilers. Direct sidewall venting of the Garn is a huge plus as previously stated.

Pole building, is that something with no footing, the poles are set as individual piers? If you're going to all the trouble of building a premium lifetime structure, what is the savings of poles on piers over a conventional full foundation. I would consider a reinforced floating slab poured over the rigid foam.


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## BoilerMan (Sep 17, 2013)

I have all radiant slab, slow to respond, but that is good with wood heat and batch burning IMHO.  I built 4 years ago, only went 2" blueboard under slab, 6mil vapor barrio on gravel base as well.  I'm very well insulated above the slab, still only burn 3.5 cord.  I did double the 2" foam around the edge of the slab where the majority of the heatloss is.

TS


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## 700renegade (Sep 17, 2013)

This reminds me of where I was 4 years ago.

I just built a 60x60x17 man cave on my hobby farm. I framed out a 16'x 60' strip for a rec room(bar)/ bathroom/ wifes craft room/ boiler room.  Above that is now all storage for all my seasonal items like snowmobiles, spare parts, woodworking area, etc.  I put the heavy stuff up with the skidsteer.

My boiler room opens up to the interior of the shop, but it's equipped with a 7' overhead door and man door so I can somewhat seal it off from the shop.  I do worry about fumes, as I've already arrived in the AM to find an ATV that's split a fuel line and drained out its tank onto my floor.  I have seperate air intake/exhaust from that boiler room, but if I were to do it over, I'd put an insulated overhead door to the outside and only have the man door with a closer to the shop interior.  I bring in my wood in IBC totes.

I put mine on a real footing and 4' frost wall ( only cost $6k ) and floated the slab on 3" of foam.  Stick built 2x8 at 24" so doors, windows and interior finishing are simple.  Your plan to spray foam is spot on but remember that you get 80% of the value of the foam out of the first inch.  The second inch has minimal value if you fill the remainder of the cavity with decent traditional insulation.  As for vapor barrier under floor foam, most foam skin acts as a vapor barrier itself.

Dan brings up a good point - if you run in-floor radiant with a pole shed you will have some headaches insulating the edges to prevent major losses out the edges of the slab.


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## Slick85 (Sep 18, 2013)

This is really great info.  If I'm understanding right, the heat loss you are talking about is from the "sidewall" of the concrete slab because you can't put insulation around the perimeter of the concrete?  What is the best way to remedy this?  Does anyone have pictures of their building? That would be awesome.  Thank you!


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## maple1 (Sep 18, 2013)

I don't think I've seen yet where you're located? (i.e. the climate?).

The kind of building that you're talking about doing, plus your access to & experiance with wood buring, seems to me to be the ideal situation to incorporate indoor gassification + storage to heat it all with. Keep reading, now all you have to do is iron out the 'little' details. For starters, since you'll be living in at least part of it, I think I would put in-floor heat in your slab for constant even heat - need to sort that out now, pretty hard to add it later. You can always add rads & modine heaters later if necessary.


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## arbutus (Sep 18, 2013)

You can put insulation around the edge of your building.  The slab gets insulated between the edge and the wall.
The wall gets insulated.  The only thing that does not get insulated is the bottom of the footing.



Seriously consider 2x6 construction with a monolithic slab or a traditional footing instead of a pole barn shell.

A Garn would be great for your scenario.


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## Slick85 (Sep 18, 2013)

I'm in Southern Indiana.  Why wouold you favor 2x6 over pole barn?  It seems like it would be substantially more $$.  After talking with insurance the rate will be about $400 less if I put the poles around the "living" portion on a footer.  The one quote I have so far has that being about $2500 more.


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## heaterman (Sep 18, 2013)

There is no question in my mind anymore that a radiant floor, if done correctly, is the most economical way to heat a structure. Sure, that method has some disadvantages such as not being able to quickly change the temperature in the building, but overall I have found no other method of heating that will provide the comfort level and overall long term economy of a radiant slab. These advantages are amplified in the case of any structure with high ceilings....which I would define as anything over 10'.

The building in the pictures here heated the entire season last year with pellets. The owner went through 7-1/4 tons start to finish which equaled about $1,400 total cost to heat a 6,400 sq ft building. Hot water was provided with a Windhager BioWin260 which is rated at 88,000btu maximum output.......so much for the old rule of thumb assuming 30btu/sq ft........
Interesting to note that the temperatures at the ceiling in the 16' part run about 3* cooler than the temp at "human height". This is the huge difference between a radiant system and one using forced air heating where you would typically see ceiling temps running 10-15* warmer than at the floor.
The Windhager sits on the pad where the Central Boiler Maxim used to be. We just connected to the same piping and the owner built " Das Boiler Haus" over it to keep it out of the weather.

It is typical pole barn construction which yields a wall cavity of about 8". The whole building is blown cellulose with the walls being 8" and he has 14-16" in the ceiling. The center 3,200 sq ft has a 16' ceiling and the lean-to sides are each 1,600 sq ft with 9' ceilings. The entire structure was kept at 65* 24-7.
The slab edge and the entire floor was done with 2" foam and the slab itself is 6" concrete. As you can see there are pretty substantial door openings so the 8" thick wall insulation only applies to maybe 60% of the total wall area. The overhead doors are all 1-1/2" foam insulated for an actual R-value of maybe 7.5. The North and west walls are mirror image of what you see in the pictures of the East and South so you can get a rough idea of total door and window area.

Regarding wall insulation, we are seeing a lot of hybrid application being done now. They spray 1' of closed cell foam on the outer wall and then fill the rest of the wall cavity with cellulose. This gives the advantage of total air sealing with the foam and the sound deadening quality of cellulose while keeping total cost reasonable. It's an excellent system and in reality, anything beyond that rapidly reaches the point of diminishing return.


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## Slick85 (Sep 18, 2013)

heaterman said:


> There is no question in my mind anymore that a radiant floor, if done correctly, is the most economical way to heat a structure. Sure, that method has some disadvantages such as not being able to quickly change the temperature in the building, but overall I have found no other method of heating that will provide the comfort level and overall long term economy of a radiant slab. These advantages are amplified in the case of any structure with high ceilings....which I would define as anything over 10'.
> 
> The building in the pictures here heated the entire season last year with pellets. The owner went through 7-1/4 tons start to finish which equaled about $1,400 total cost to heat a 6,400 sq ft building. Hot water was provided with a Windhager BioWin260 which is rated at 88,000btu maximum output.......so much for the old rule of thumb assuming 30btu/sq ft........
> Interesting to note that the temperatures at the ceiling in the 16' part run about 3* cooler than the temp at "human height". This is the huge difference between a radiant system and one using forced air heating where you would typically see ceiling temps running 10-15* warmer than at the floor.
> ...


 


That is a great looking setup!  Thanks for sharing.


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## goosegunner (Sep 18, 2013)

Slick85 said:


> I'm in Southern Indiana.  Why wouold you favor 2x6 over pole barn?  It seems like it would be substantially more $$.  After talking with insurance the rate will be about $400 less if I put the poles around the "living" portion on a footer.  The one quote I have so far has that being about $2500 more.




My building is 2X6 stick built 24" on center on top of slab. The cost actually equal to pole building. Especially if you factor in framing to finish exterior walls  on a pole building.

Trusses are lighter weight and 4' on center instead of 8'. This allows the use of steel ceiling without adding any additional framing lumber for nailers. The steel sheeting will span 4'. 

The advantages you have with stick built are;

1.No wood in the dirt to rot.
2. Easier to insulate.
3.Interier finish walls are easy because you don't have to add any additional nailing members.
If you are going to have finished living space I would consider stick framing instead of pole building. 

gg


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## arbutus (Sep 18, 2013)

Slick85 said:


> I'm in Southern Indiana.  Why wouold you favor 2x6 over pole barn?  It seems like it would be substantially more $$.  After talking with insurance the rate will be about $400 less if I put the poles around the "living" portion on a footer.  The one quote I have so far has that being about $2500 more.


 

Goosegunner's reply covered it.

You have to buy 2x4 girts to finish the interior.  Cost winds up similar. 

Find a couple of 20 or 30 year old pole barns in your area owned by friends.  Or old decks supported by 4x4s.  Get a shovel, dig down a foot or two, and look at the condition of the wood.  I have seen too many (including one I previously owned) in poor condition after that time.


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## Slick85 (Sep 18, 2013)

I understand where you all are coming from.  Would it make any sense at all to "stick build" the living portion, then use pole construction for the shop?  I know a lot of people are going with a pvc sleeve over the post, or even concrete bases on the posts to prevent any wood to soil contact.  Thoughts on that?


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## oldspark (Sep 18, 2013)

goosegunner said:


> My building is 2X6 stick built 24" on center on top of slab. The cost actually equal to pole building. Especially if you factor in framing to finish exterior walls  on a pole building.
> 
> Trusses are lighter weight and 4' on center instead of 8'. This allows the use of steel ceiling without adding any additional framing lumber for nailers. The steel sheeting will span 4'.
> 
> ...


 
I have a son in law that does that work for a living and thats exactly what he told me, probably should have listened to him, by the time I finish off my pole building the costs will be about the same, if you are not going to finish it off then a pole building makes good sense.


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## flyingcow (Sep 18, 2013)

Slick85 said:


> Thanks for the link to the mitsu unit.  That could work out really well in our new "bouse".  What was the cost on the Mitsubishi if you don't mind?  Thanks.




the 18,000btu was a little of 4k and the 12,000btu was about 3K. varies a little , depending on install time. 

I got info from mitsu on the watts on the 18,000btu model . 1240watts for cooling and 1540watts for heating @47f outside temp. It goes up to 2620 watts when it's 17f outside temp. A Kwatt up here is about 17cents and hour. So heating in the shoulder season will cost me 25c cents an hour, when it's running? Once it drops below that outside i will be using the gasser. My local utility was offering a $600 rebate to install the hyper units.


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## Slick85 (Sep 18, 2013)

Thanks for the info flyingcow.


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## heaterman (Sep 18, 2013)

Mitsubishi is the ONLY brand of mini split that we sell any more. Tried LG, Fujitsu(not bad), Sanyo, etc......none of them perform like a Mitsubishi. We put those in, set them up right and never see them again except for cleaning and normal maintenance.


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## ewdudley (Sep 18, 2013)

heaterman said:


> The building in the pictures here...


That is one sharp looking structure.  Then wing bays, two-tone siding, window placement, and wide eaves all work great together.


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## flyingcow (Sep 18, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Mitsubishi is the ONLY brand of mini split that we sell any more. Tried LG, Fujitsu(not bad), Sanyo, etc......none of them perform like a Mitsubishi. We put those in, set them up right and never see them again except for cleaning and normal maintenance.




I talked to 2 different installers that i highly respect. Both of them voted hands down for the Mitsu. On a very rare occasion if there was ever any issues, customer service was very prompt and resolved the problems quickly. 

Very quiet inside the home, whisper quiet. And units outside, you have to walk over and look at them to see if they're running.


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## Slick85 (Sep 19, 2013)

That's great to know about the Mitsu units, if we do decide to go that route.

I called the business that I had do the original quote and asked if they could quote me a price using 2x6s on 24" to see the price difference.  He said it should be close.  We will see.  To give you all an idea, the original quote was just a shade over 50k for a 40x80x16 pole building with 10 ft porch, 12" overhang, framed wall between living area and shop, 10 windows, 3 overhead doors, and 2 man doors.  Concrete is also included.  I can't remember if that was 4 or 6" concrete, will have to look this evening.  How does that sound for price?


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## Tennman (Sep 19, 2013)

Great advice above on many subjects. Not saying you'll ever sell your place, but if you ever had to and I was a potential buyer, I'd see those poles in the ground and immediately walk away. If you have long term plans for your building (for other than storing tractors) keeping wood that is a primary structure out of the dirt is a priority. I was just like you, planning on buying a Hardy like many of my neighbors until I started doing research here. Take your time in making the BIG decisions and you'll avoid BIG regrets. Marriage, building, business... a poor foundation eventually catches up with you. Best wishes to you and your bride to be.


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## BoilerMan (Sep 19, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Mitsubishi is the ONLY brand of mini split that we sell any more. Tried LG, Fujitsu(not bad), Sanyo, etc......none of them perform like a Mitsubishi. We put those in, set them up right and never see them again except for cleaning and normal maintenance.


 This is interesting, we install Fujitsu, I've heard the Mitsu's are prone to compressor failure?  I have no first hand expirence with them.  Daikin is also a big player around here, never anything bad about them other than they are $$$$$.

TS


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## 700renegade (Sep 19, 2013)

Slick85 said:


> That's great to know about the Mitsu units, if we do decide to go that route.
> 
> I called the business that I had do the original quote and asked if they could quote me a price using 2x6s on 24" to see the price difference.  He said it should be close.  We will see.  To give you all an idea, the original quote was just a shade over 50k for a 40x80x16 pole building with 10 ft porch, 12" overhang, framed wall between living area and shop, 10 windows, 3 overhead doors, and 2 man doors.  Concrete is also included.  I can't remember if that was 4 or 6" concrete, will have to look this evening.  How does that sound for price?


 

I'm biased to what I built, but please consider 2x8 at 24"oc.  Mine has 17' sidewalls and I also ran double 2x8's under each truss at 4' oc.   You gain two things by going 2x8 - a much stiffer sidewall, and just as important - the ability to stuff another R6 worth of cellulose or fiberglass into the wall cavity.  Do the math and you'll see that you are only dealing with about 150 or 180 studs and adding a couple $ each to go with the 8".  You'll get that back in spades later due to the better insulation package. 

Regarding post frame construction, If you can come up with a good reason that sticking wood posts in the ground is wise, I'd love to hear it.  I have a cattle loafing shed that at least half the posts are rotted clean off at ground level.  Any jabber about pvc sleeves and concrete around the posts is proof that the concept is a bad idea from the start.

Goosgunner hit most of the important points about stick built earlier, but I'll add - at 4'oc trusses, the roof purlins lay flat instead of 2x4's turned up on edge like they are on a pole shed.  Contractor can throw them on with an airgun instead of manually doing 60D spikes.  Productivity is about 3X and will save you some labor cost.  Also, with 2x walls and trusses at 4', if you happen to get one weak one due to a crack or knots, you have a lot of redundancy with the next member being close by.  Wood has defects.  My ceiling liner spans the 4' trusses directly and has R75 cellulose lying on top no problem.


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## Slick85 (Sep 20, 2013)

Thanks for the responses everyone.  I will say that I'm not worried about resale.  This building will border where my family's farm "headquarters" are, so selling won't ever be on the table.  If we do ever decide to live somewhere else, the building will turn into a full time farm shop/office.  With that said, pending the quotes, I am looking hard at stick built.  The problem with these type of projects is you have to draw the line somewhere.  The original idea was to put up a place to live/work more economically than building a seperate stick built house and shop.  Then I come here and I want to stick build it and buy a $11,000 gasser.haha


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## 711mhw (Sep 20, 2013)

Well I have a similar garage with attached house, 38x78x16.5. I have been/am a pole barn fan, but not for much more than a machine shed. Did a full 4' frost wall, insulated, 2x6 @16" centers with 3" (ridgid) foam and r-13 fg. The best part is the radiant slab in the shop, we have it in the house as well but in southern IN I think that you may need central AC. This (sort of) get's you into 2 heating systems. I am thinking about adding a mini split in the house side for the ac (1 week a year here in ME) and heat use at the early & end of the heating season. I have a indoor gasser in an attached purpose built room off of the living space. My wood boiler really throws off the heat, and in a highly insulated space it can fool the t stats. If I had to do it over, I'd make use of that heat in the shop area rather than the house side. For the sake of being what I feel is reasonable, I set the shop slab at about 60° and with a little extra heat that the WB throws off would be no problem in the shop. I hired a radiant design co. for my job and am very happy that I did. They provided me with job specific drawings including the boiler piping, that allowed this carpenter to do the whole installation myself, and I am glad that I did as I completely understand my system. You might talk to some ? experts ? about your shop side. I did a highly insulated shell, with 3 giant holes in 1 wall (the 12x14 ohd's). It seems that the best "R" for a garage door (ohd) is about 7-8 but with that damn weather seal (40' each door) that only kinda slows the air down, there must be a point that makes sence for wall insulation before your wasting money. The radiant slab is deffinetly set it & forget it, no playing around with the t-stats to take the chill off. The heated slab does not seem to care if you open the doors where as my last (hot air) shop, even a NASCAR pit crew could not open & close the doors fast enough to retain any of the heat. This is my first time around with radiant heat & I'm sold on it. House & shop but esp. in the shop. It some how feels warmer than my (techmar) t-stats say. Usually with the slab at 60°, the room is at around 56°-58° and I am completly comfy in a tee shirt. By the way, with about 5 extra wall "plates" you can avoid the costly 18' or 20' lumber and have a very comfortable ceiling height for 2 floors if you keep your floor spans down in legnth.


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## Slick85 (Sep 23, 2013)

Great info, 711.  The two heating system deal, is what is bothering me about the gasser now.  I haven't ran any numbers yet, and this would just be a guess, but, I doubt that the payback would be short enough to make sense with my setup, and still having to purchase a central air unit.  Will need to run the numbers though to be sure.  Still waiting to get the quote on stick built vs. pole construction.  Really anxious to see it in black and white.


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