# Masonry Heater vs Wood stove



## byQ (May 12, 2013)

I believe masonry heaters are superior heating devices as compared to wood stoves. Yet it seems no one else realizes this. The real question? How has an inferior appliance (the wood stove) come to dominate the American market as the #1 wood burner?

Fireplaces have been banned in new construction in Washington and Oregon because they are so innefficient. Are wood stoves next? A wood stove is a metal or stone box with a pipe - and a little gadgetry to increase efficiency. A masonry heater is a thermal mass with channels. Why are masonry heaters so far advanced to inferior wood stoves?

* they get over twice as hot in their fireboxes - which means? Means the burn is more complete. Which means you use less wood for heat.
* masonry heaters create an even heat - you're heating a big mass, wood stoves go to extremes - from hot to cold (they are just a box after all, what do you expect?)
* Wood stoves must be attended to and fed constantly, sometimes. Masonry heaters are fed once or twice a day - done.

Masonry heaters are relatively unknown so the parts for them are overpriced and the construction costs are inflated. But if more do-it-yourselfers got interested they could build there own superior appliance for what a new wood stove costs. So good bye woodstock wood stove and hello small contraflow masonry heater.

This masonry heater should cost me between $1000 and $1500 to build myself. All one needs is knowledge, firebrick, some rocks or old bricks, a good door (and a few other gadgets), and a specific type of mortar. The piping should be the same as a wood stove. C'mon man, why are you using a wood stove?


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## BrotherBart (May 12, 2013)

Build it Mr. Wizard and post pictures when you are finished.


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## fossil (May 12, 2013)

byQ said:


> ...C'mon man, why are you using a wood stove?


 
I guess 'cause I'm not you.


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## webbie (May 12, 2013)

Sounds like you may not be up on the most modern wood stoves - which equal or surpass most masonry heaters in total efficiency.

That said, masonry heaters are great things! 

But it's not an either/or proposition. Only a very tiny percentage of the population are capable of building their own for $2K or less - more likely, a good one will cost 10-15K+. 

You have to compare like to like.....a ready to burn masonry heater vs. a read to burn stove. I'd say the MH would be 4X the price in a lot of cases.

But I think you have a narrow view of this. Check out our Boiler Room and you will see a lot of people who have installed storage heaters using water - which are very high efficiency. 

You could give $5K rebates and the number of masonry stoves vs. wood stoves would probably not budge.....due to the massive construction required in most cases as well as other factors.

But, yeah, they are really great when done right. We've had quite a few members over the years with masonry heaters.


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## DevilsBrew (May 12, 2013)

Don't look at me, I'm into hybrids.

The main problem, besides the cost, with masonry stoves is the weight and space.  You aren't going to be sticking a goliath in a trailer.


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## dznam (May 12, 2013)

DevilsBrew said:


> The main problem, besides the cost, with masonry stoves is the weight and space. You aren't going to be sticking a goliath in a trailer.


 
+1.

Just built a house and consulted with a brand name masonry heater mfg (heat loss calcs, heater design, etc.) about putting in a masonry heater. We found out that the house would have to be dominated (size wise) and built around (i,e, heater would have to be in the middle of the house) the heater. With closed cell foam in all walls and roof, the stove footprint would have made it the primary feature of the house physically and still wouldn't meet our heating needs during cold spells. The comment from the company, "these aren't intended to provide full time 24/7 heating capability in our area. People who buy them rely on conventional "supplemental" heating". So for $20,000, I couldn't match the full-time heating capability of a woodstove, couldn't vary the heat output meaningfully, would have to purpose build the house around it and would have to scratch-build two fires/day (vs never having to restart a woodstove as long as we're not on vacation).

The response I got from the distributor when I laid out my conclusions is that most people buy them for the "aesthetic". $20,000 is a lot of "aesthetic"!

Am glad to have my newest Woodstock to provide easy 24/7 heating with a beautiful hearth and masonry chimney for half that price!

Nothing against these heaters, just my encounter in this space - YMMV.

Look forward to seeing the pics of the build.


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## Sprinter (May 12, 2013)

> I believe masonry heaters are superior heating devices as compared to wood stoves. Yet it seems no one else realizes this


There has been a lot of discussion about masonry heaters here. These things are nothing new. They are just one more heating option and one that few people choose for any number of reasons.

I have a friend that has one and it is pretty cool for sure, but it was horribly expensive to have built and dominates the house. Fortunately, his house can handle it.

Your comments will be a lot more respected when you have it built, send pictures and objectively describe your overall experience


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## jeff_t (May 12, 2013)

I believe the sheer size and weight would deter most, even if the cost was equal. It's a whole lot easier to add a 500 lb stove to the living room, rather than provide a foundation for 5-10 tons of masonry. 

I'll just keep chucking wood in my inefficient stove. Every 12-48 hours.


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## byQ (May 12, 2013)

I will build it and I will post pictures and "educate" along the way. Imagine yourself as a Viking several centuries ago in the middle of Norse country, it's January (-30 F), no electricity, all wood is almost gone and you have a family you are trying to keep alive. You have time, rocks and a will.  This is in fact where masonry heaters came from - survival! Europeans are just smarter than Americans on certain things. And this is one of those things. They build smaller more efficient houses and they heat them with masonry heaters. "Funny Americans, they just don't know any better. They've actually believe wood stoves are comparable. Have you tried to tell them?...You know how Americans are. Once they start doing something they convince themselves of it's superiority even when it isn't so. They'll catch up eventually." Must we always lag behind?

Yes, we know the meaning of waste and excess. Why use something that works better when Joe the wood stove salesman needs to make a living? There is no comparison masonry heaters are as far superior to wood stoves as chainsaws are to hand saws. Truth is truth and facts are facts. A masonry heaters firebox reaches temperatures up to 1600 F. What does a wood stove reach, 500-600 F? The physical principals that govern these two devices must be examined and compared.  Cost is high because of unfamiliarity. A few build them and have tagged them as specialty items for the extravagant. Hearth.com should start a masonry heater section. The more people get educated the more they will start realizing the truth.


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## BrotherBart (May 12, 2013)

Build it. Then you can lead us from the wilderness.


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## BrotherBart (May 12, 2013)

A member here Marty S has a house built around a masonry heater the likes of which the OP can only dream of. And he also uses a cast iron wood stove.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (May 12, 2013)

Post some pictures. Post some of the actual  masonary heaters that we should be using...


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## Sprinter (May 12, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Build it. *Then you can lead us from the wilderness*.


Wait, I like it here!


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## Bster13 (May 12, 2013)

-I don't have masonry skills and to pay someone would jack the price.
-I don't feel like reinforcing my floor, or paying someone to do it.
-It would take up a lot of space in my home.
-The masonry heater can't move with me to the next house if need be.
-I can't resell my masonry heater on craigslist to recoup costs if I decide to give up wood heating.
-I get all the free wood I can handle so a little less efficiency is ok with me.  Cost of a masonry heater over my lifetime will not be recouped.
-They aren't as efficient as Pellet Stoves (according to: http://www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/ap42/ch01/related/woodstove.pdf, page 6)


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## byQ (May 12, 2013)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> Post some pictures. Post some of the actual masonary heaters that we should be using...


 
On my journey I went from wanting steel wood stoves to soapstone wood stoves to than wanting to buy a masonry heater kit. A masonry heater kit is basically a bunch of molded masonry cement pieces that you put together - this makes up the core. The company you are buying the kit from has the mold, which they make the large pieces from. I looked into this and the prices are ridiculously high, just for the kit. You still have to cover the core with rocks, common bricks, etc..... Next, I looked into purchasing a small masonry heater. The best deal I could find was with M. Teixeira. They offer a small soapstone MH (masonry heater) for around $5k with free shipping this time of year (youtube - M. Teixeira soapstone masonry heater). But I still wasn't satisfied. What exactly is a MH?

It looks like a pile of stone and/or brick put together in a specific way to me - nothing more. I'll build one! There is a web site, Masonry Heater Association (MHA, check it out) that I started trying to learn from. There is info but not a lot, and that is the problem, How can the common guy or gal build something if there isn't any info out there? It is all pretty new in America/Canada.

Anyways, I learned if you live in the Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois area you can get good firebricks cheap, like $1.30 per brick (Alsey refractories, Alsey Illinois). A core for a small MH uses less than 100 bricks. Hey that isn't too expensive! And even a large core might cost you only $300 in fire bricks. What about the outer layer? Any old thermal mass will work - common brick, cinder blocks, river rocks, stucco,....get creative. I already have a big pile of old school bricks so I'll just use these (almost free). People keep telling me that these MHs are really expensive but I'm getting all the parts for not that much $, Huh?

You must have a special door for a MH because it gets much hotter than a wood stove - a wood stove door won't work. The best deal I could find on one was $400 (19" x 19"). If only MH were more common doors would be cheaper - oh well. There are a few other things but that is about it. Plans help but I've seen some step by step pictures that one could use probably just as well (thanks to those who shared their building process). I think once a person learns the basics of masonry and also understands what a masonry heater is really doing they are on their way.


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## BrotherBart (May 12, 2013)

Go forth and mortarfy.


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## begreen (May 12, 2013)

I wanted to put in a Tulikivi when we remodeled but the wife nixed that idea.


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## byQ (May 12, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> -I don't have masonry skills and to pay someone would jack the price. Neither do I
> -I don't feel like reinforcing my floor, or paying someone to do it. Well maybe if you build a new house some day...
> -It would take up a lot of space in my home. The one I building is 24" x 36" and 5' tall - so its footprint isn't much bigger than your wood stove and it's better
> -The masonry heater can't move with me to the next house if need be. Some small ones can, but no not large ones - if you built it, you can use your knowledge to build a better one
> ...


 Yes pellet stoves have slightly higher efficiency rating, but masonry heaters provide better heat, huh? And pellets cost $, whereas wood can be gathered - hooray for the go getters!


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## Bster13 (May 12, 2013)

I don't know how you qualify "better heat."


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## DexterDay (May 12, 2013)

Everyone loves there stove and most of us have a lifestyle that can accommodate "Stoves" (be it pellet or wood)

I still save over $3,000 a year using pellets and wood. 

Masonry heaters are for a certain breed. 

This is my subscription to this thread. I am looking forward to this heater and some pics. We have a rule here. 

That rule.... No pics = Never happened  

Good luck in your build. I have ventured onto Premies.com (spelling) there are some interesting designs there. Never joined. Nor posted. But read a lot.


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## byQ (May 12, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> I don't know how you qualify "better heat."


All heat is not the same. This is very very important when trying to understand the difference between masonry heaters and wood/pellet stoves. The heat they produce is different. You hear people say that the heat from a masonry heater feels better, why? I found this,

_"........Another positive consideration in favor of a masonry heater is it's ability to provide even heat over a much larger area within your home. A masonry heater produces radiant heat which warms walls, ceilings, floors and objects in the room, *not the air directly*. The air in the room in turn is warmed to the same temperature as the surfaces and the objects in the room. The secret of natural convection of air to adjoining rooms lies in the fact that the surface temperatures in the adjoining rooms (being in the shade) are slightly cooler than the room directly heated by the masonry heater (being in the sun). The laws of thermal dynamics dictate that heat flows from warm surfaces to cool surfaces. This occurs through convection of air between rooms. As long as there is an opening between rooms the air temperature will equalize naturally. The natural convection process will continue until the wall temperatures are equal in both rooms. Convection between rooms will not stop until the masonry heater stops radiating to the walls of the room where it is located (12 to 24 hours). When you walk from one room to the next it will be similiar to walking from the direct rays of the sun into the shade. When you walk into an adjoining room you will lose the direct warmth of the masonry heater's "sunshine" but the air temperature will change very little if at all._

_With a hot_ _air convection appliance like a pellet stove most of the convection related to this appliance occurs within the room it is located and not between adjacent rooms. This is why you are often too hot in the room with the appliance and too cool in the adjoining rooms. With pellet stoves or forced air systems that generate hot air, the air rises to the ceiling, comes in contact with the coolest outside wall in the room, settles to the floor, sweeps across the floor creating a draft on its way back to the pellet stove or the cold air return of the forced air system. The colder it is outside, the greater the need for more hot air, the greater the speed of convection (air movement) in the room, the greater the "wind chill" in the room, the less comfortable you are in the room. Often with a convection type heat system, it is necessary to rap a blanket around you as you read a book or watch television. On the other hand, with a radiant system you just sit in the sunshine......"_

I guess the thing to take away is that a MH produces radiant heat as opposed to convection type of heat.


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## Bster13 (May 12, 2013)

Well I guess you have to build it now to verify all yours claims.  GL!


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## byQ (May 13, 2013)

I found these, too. He says a masonry heater only uses 1/5 the amount of wood as a steel wood stove - wow, this is hard to believe.

_"....Inside, masonry stoves (heaters) burn hotter than metal wood stoves, and masonry heaters winding maze of flue (baffles) warms the surrounding masonry, which than emits heat for 18 to 24 hours. The temperature can reach 2000 F inside some masonry heaters (vs 700 F inside a metal wood stove), yet masonry heaters stay comfortable to the touch on the surface. At these high internal temperatures, the hydrocarbon gases ignite, leaving very minimal pollution. .... __A metal stove gives out its heat rapidly, thus never allowing the inside combustion temperatures to achieve the 1100 F plus needed to ignite all the gases...."_

_"...Because the stored heat radiates slowly from the masonry, it is only necessary to light a fire once a day in most cases. In really cold conditions, you might need to light two fires a day. Metal wood stoves must be tended to continually, and they fluctuate from peak high temperatures, to no heat, when the fire goes out. If you tamp down the flue on a metal wood stove you increase the emissions of pollutants as the combustion of the wood is incomplete. A masonry heater always burns wood at the highest heat. And if you desire less heat, you simply use less wood. In a well insulated home, a masonry heater will use 1/5 (or much) less wood, then a home heated with a metal wood stove. All well designed masonry heaters easily outperform the highest rated EPA certified metal wood stoves. And like a wood stove, a masonry heater can exhaust through a metal flue pipe....."_


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## begreen (May 13, 2013)

It is hard to believe. The heat loss of the house is going to determine the amount of btu input necessary to heat the home.


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## webbie (May 13, 2013)

byQ said:


> I will build it and I will post pictures and "educate" along the way. Imagine yourself as a Viking several centuries ago in the middle of Norse country,
> 
> Truth is truth and facts are facts. A masonry heaters firebox reaches temperatures up to 1600 F. What does a wood stove reach, 500-600 F? The physical principals that govern these two devices must be examined and compared. Cost is high because of unfamiliarity. A few build them and have tagged them as specialty items for the extravagant. Hearth.com should start a masonry heater section. The more people get educated the more they will start realizing the truth.


 
Truth is the Vikings walked and sailed. Are you suggesting we also change to that more efficient method of transportation?

How about the "truths" of them raping and pillaging? That's pretty truthful and efficient and maybe even "natural". 

If we started a MH section it would have about zero population. There is a great site for Masonry Heaters and we have linked to it and steered people to it for 15+ years.
http://masonryheaters.org/

Why should we, who have little experience in the matter, try to take visitors away from a site that does it better? Let me know the truth on that matter.


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## DevilsBrew (May 13, 2013)

webbie said:


> Why should we, who have little experience in the matter, try to take visitors away from a site that does it better? Let me know the truth on that matter.


 
Because this site is the most entertaining stove forum going.  It is very impressive.


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## BrotherBart (May 13, 2013)

byQ said:


> vs 700 F inside a metal wood stove​


 
Got several ocean front lots in Arizona to sell ya.


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## webbie (May 13, 2013)

DevilsBrew said:


> Because this site is the most entertaining stove forum going. It is very impressive.


 
In a Jim Cramer and Motley Fool sorta way?


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## webbie (May 13, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Got several ocean front lots in Arizona to sell ya.


 
Close enough....I can just sail down the Thames and be there....


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## Augie (May 13, 2013)

byQ said:


> Truth is truth and facts are facts. A masonry heaters firebox reaches temperatures up to 1600 F. What does a wood stove reach, 500-600 F? The physical principals that govern these two devices must be examined and compared. Cost is high because of unfamiliarity. A few build them and have tagged them as specialty items for the extravagant. Hearth.com should start a masonry heater section. The more people get educated the more they will start realizing the truth.


 

To have secondary burn the physics says we have to have temps above 1100 for wood gas to burn, and for Cat stoves the cat gets over 1500 regularly


> The conditions needed to burn secondary gases are sufficient oxygen and temperatures of at least 1100° F. The air supply is critical. Too little air will not support combustion and too much will cool the temperature to a point where combustion cannot occur.
> Remember that air is about 80 percent inert gas and, when introduced into a wood stove, is well below the 1100° F needed to sustain secondary combustion. The more air that mixes with the secondary gases, the greater the quantity of heat absorbed by the nitrogen, and the lower the temperature of the secondary gas-air mixture.
> 
> 
> > You assumptions about what is efficient are almost correct but not totally there. Masonry stoves act the same way as a Gasser with storage by producing radiant heat. I am not able to retrofit my home for a masonry, and I live in a Sub so boiler or Gasser are out. That leaves me with a wood stove as the best option to heat my house with wood. Just because people aren't on the "masonry Bandwagon" doesn't mean that we don't understand the tech or how to use it, it might mean that we just find wood stoves a better solution for our application. Nothing is black and white, shades or gray man, shades or gray.


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## Dakotas Dad (May 13, 2013)

LOL.. 500-600 degrees on the inside of a wood stove.. Mine is usually close to 600 on the outside, my flue temps are in the 800-1000 from time to time... I'm gonna guess down there in the middle where the HOT is.. it's a bit warmer than 500-600. Fire temperature is a function of fuel and air, not the container.

I love the thought as much as the next guy, but the truth of it is, the things require VERY specific building plans to be INCORPORATED into a home... They are not very easy to retrofit. I did the calc's once.. To heat our home we would give up almost 25% of our cubic footage, and have to build a new foundation/footer, inside our already finished basement to support the 23 TONS of mass recommended. And we have not even discussed cost. And while you can claim "easy DIY" all you want, VERY few people are willing/able to gut the center of their home to, reinforce/move/modify every truss, stringer and joist in the center of said home.

But as others have said, continue to study, research. and then document document document. Prove the world wrong. You are right. Sometimes it happens.

But not often.

OH.. and check local codes/restrictions before you cut that hole in the center of your roof.. just in case.


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## Adios Pantalones (May 13, 2013)

Masonry heaters are sexy as hell. Try retrofitting a house with one. Throw in a geothermal system while you're at it.

Not cheap, not simple. I'd love to have one, though


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## Dustin (May 13, 2013)

Looking forward to the pictures.

To each their own.

My small European, by the way, jotul f602 heats just fine


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## Woody Stover (May 13, 2013)

byQ said:


> He says a masonry heater only uses 1/5 the amount of wood as a steel wood stove - wow, this is hard to believe.


*"a masonry heater will use 1/5 (or much) less wood, then a home heated with a metal wood stove"*
I, too, am finding it extremely difficult to believe. I think he's saying 1/5 (or _more_) less.



*"never allowing the inside combustion temperatures to achieve the 1100 F plus needed to ignite all the gases...."*

When I get the old plate-steel Englander 24 up to 650-700 _external_ temp, there's virtually no smoke coming out of the stack. Obviously, the gas/smoke is being burned in the fire box, in excess of 1100 degrees.




webbie said:


> Truth is the Vikings walked and sailed. Are you suggesting we also change to that more efficient method of transportation?


True, the Viking culture is mostly gone, but those that remain have adapted and have done quite well for themselves making the Capital One commercials.


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## bmblank (May 13, 2013)

1/5th the wood is way different than 1/5th less wood. 1/5th less means 4/5ths the wood. Instead of burning 10 cord its burning 8. Not as big of a claim anymore.


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## Dave A. (May 13, 2013)

webbie said:


> Why should we, who have little experience in the matter, try to take visitors away from a site that does it better?


 


DevilsBrew said:


> Because this site is the most entertaining stove forum going. It is very impressive.


 
I can't see that argument either -- we shouldn't address it because another site is more of an authority? Otoh, are there really enough posts/threads about it at this point to justify a separate forum -- probably not.

Anyway, I hope to see more posts/threads about the topic. I'd like to see more about the principles and techniques in building and operating them. How to maximize output and maybe even how stoves/inserts could be modified to take advantage of the counterflow ideas. I recall reading how the high end parlor stoves of the late 19th century and early 20th had very convoluted exhaust paths and chambers that made them very efficient.


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## georgepds (May 13, 2013)

dznam said:


> +1.
> 
> Just built a house and consulted with a brand name masonry heater mfg (heat loss calcs, heater design, etc.) about putting in a masonry heater. We found out that the house would have to be dominated (size wise) and built around (i,e, heater would have to be in the middle of the house) the heater. ....


 
FWIIW

When I rebuilt my house in 1990 (2 story , small, ~25x30 feet) I designed around a wood stove sitting dead center of the first floor (Jotul combi fire), with a stainless chimney going straight up through the roof, much like you are suggesting for the masonry heater

The center bottom floor design works pretty well to heat the house. I would have liked a masonry heater, and got  a small way there by recently changing to a soapstone stove ( progress hybrid) What a joy, even after the fire is out that 700 lbls of stone and iron continues to radiate
.
I condsidered masonry heaters both in 1990 , and more recently when I bought the progress hybrid. Cost and the need to support the masonry were concerns that kept me with a wood stove


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## byQ (May 13, 2013)

From what others are saying the 3 biggest problems with masonry heaters are 1) cost is too high, 2) they are too heavy and require foundation work, and 3) there is a lack of info/knowledge on how to build one.

I believe the cost can be dealt with. Right now a small MH can be bought for $5k and a large one for $10k. When this is compared to wood stoves no wonder masonry heaters seem like a stretch - and there isn't much info/public awareness out there about them. A small masonry heater if built by a homeowner could come in at $1000 if materials were collected thriftily. And a large MH for $2k. At these costs MH's could compete with wood/pellet stoves.

2nd problem - too heavy and take up too much space. If MH's were 'out there more' they could be incorporated into new construction. It isn't much more work in new construction to fortify the place where the MH will go, and to incorporate it in the floor design. But in large already built houses requiring a large MH, it could be a lot of work to fortify the floor and move things around to accommodate it. Now, builders put fireplaces in houses. And we all know fireplaces are really inefficient. That same rock/brick work could have been used to build a MH.

3rd problem - info/knowledge. If enough people started doing and figuring out how to build these things and sharing what they know/how they did it on sites like this others might give it a try and see how one of these things really works. Fire bricks, bricks or rocks or cinder or concrete, a door, metal flue, mortar, and a few small gadgets - that is all the parts one needs. A person just needs to know how to put them together.

It is annoying that so few people have built them themselves, and the ones who build them professionally don't talk much about how it is done.


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## BrotherBart (May 13, 2013)

And that silly little thing about homeowner's insurance companies requiring that heating appliances be UL approved and installations inspected.

Waiting on those pics.


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## byQ (May 13, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> And that silly little thing about homeowner's insurance companies requiring that heating appliances be UL approved and installations inspected.
> 
> Waiting on those pics.


You're going to be waiting a while. I've got to build the house first. I just rented an excavator and dug a 6' hole for the septic test hole. I've got most of the MH materials (still need to pick up a door). I've adjusted house plan to accommodate a small MH (small house). I've picked up 352 high duty fire brick (8"x6"x3") for $400 that I'm going to use on the core. I need less than 100 - so maybe I'll build someone else a heater after I figure out what I'm doing.


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## fossil (May 13, 2013)

byQ said:


> From what others are saying the 3 biggest problems with masonry heaters are 1) cost is too high, 2) they are too heavy and require foundation work, and 3) there is a lack of info/knowledge on how to build one...


 
I think you're ignoring the 4th biggest "problem"...you're talking to a whole online community of people who are perfectly happy, successful, and content with the solid fuel-burning appliances we've very carefully chosen after lots of research/shopping, and determined are appropriate and affordable for our unique circumstances.  I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anyone here jumping up and saying, "Yes, I'm gonna scrap my _____ appliance and build me a Masonry Heater, by golly.  But hey, go for it, and share the whole experience with us here.  Rick


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## begreen (May 13, 2013)

I think it's super that you want to build a masonry heater into your home. It is a great way to heat. My advice would be to study systems in detail. The main flaw I see in your plan is trying to do this on the cheap. Give yourself a bigger budget to do it right. You don't want to have problems with settling, creosote accumulation, cleaning or heat dispersal just because of corner cutting.

Also, think of the masonry heater as a design element. They are great for dividing a large open floorplan into more intimate areas. Take time to study successful designs. We have had a few posted here and there are also ideas on the masonry heaters forums. Here is a thread to inspire you: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-masonry-heater.10159/

http://mha-net.org/
yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MasonryHeaters/summary


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## byQ (May 13, 2013)

begreen said:


> I think it's super that you want to build a masonry heater into your home. It is a great way to heat. My advice would be to study systems in detail. The main flaw I see in your plan is trying to do this on the cheap. Give yourself a bigger budget to do it right. You don't want to have problems with settling, creosote accumulation, cleaning or heat dispersal just because of corner cutting.
> 
> Also, think of the masonry heater as a design element. They are great for dividing a large open floorplan into more intimate areas. Take time to study successful designs. We have had a few posted here and there are also ideas on the masonry heaters forums. Here is a thread to inspire you: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-masonry-heater.10159/
> 
> ...


I got a pallet of government super duty firebrick for $400, original cost $3500. I like to buy good things cheaply. Common brick is ...let's see..... common brick. Just because someone doesn't want it anymore doesn't mean it's still not structurally good brick - the mason's say this is fine. Unlike the inner core which gets very hot the outer is a thermal mass heat sink and it doesn't get that hot. The mortar masonry bullders use is $65 a pale - I'll need 1 or 2 buckets. A small door from Norway - $400. "You mustn't think outside the box. And you must spend a lot to get a lot!" Sorry if I'm building something that will most definitely outperform your wood stoves and will probably cost less to boot.


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## fossil (May 13, 2013)

byQ said:


> Sorry if I'm building something that will most definitely outperform your wood stoves and will probably cost less to boot.


 
Certainly no need to apologize...just show us.  We'll be right here.


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## DevilsBrew (May 14, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> And that silly little thing about homeowner's insurance companies requiring that heating appliances be UL approved and installations inspected.
> 
> Waiting on those pics.


 
Great 4th point. I would add resale value as the "5th problem" when considering heating choices. It doesn't seem as though people _ever _put this into consideration when they start DIY'ing their house. What type, the quality of the build, and placement are all going to matter in the long run.

I love hybrids and post crazy stuff but I am also realistic.


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## begreen (May 14, 2013)

byQ said:


> I got a pallet of government super duty firebrick for $400, original cost $3500. I like to buy good things cheaply. Common brick is ...let's see..... common brick. Just because someone doesn't want it anymore doesn't mean it's still not structurally good brick - the mason's say this is fine. Unlike the inner core which gets very hot the outer is a thermal mass heat sink and it doesn't get that hot. The mortar masonry bullders use is $65 a pale - I'll need 1 or 2 buckets. A small door from Norway - $400. "You mustn't think outside the box. And you must spend a lot to get a lot!" Sorry if I'm building something that will most definitely outperform your wood stoves and will probably cost less to boot.


 
Good deals on materials are a good start. Just don't try to cut corners on design or on the mason. I have no doubt that a good masonry stove works well, we have some nice Russian fireplaces locally that work great.


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## jeff_t (May 14, 2013)

I would like to look forward to an interesting and informative thread on this project. Hopefully it will be presented in a more pleasant manner. Confrontational, standoff-ish attitudes often indicate insecurity and weakness. 

Don't many of these designs incorporate a damper that is closed after the fire burns out? To prevent heat loss up the chimney. That would suck, IMO.


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## Bster13 (May 14, 2013)

Well said. I couldn't put it quite as eloquently though. ;p



jeff_t said:


> I would like to look forward to an interesting and informative thread on this project. Hopefully it will be presented in a more pleasant manner. Confrontational, standoff-ish attitudes often indicate insecurity and weakness.


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## Bster13 (May 14, 2013)

Nice link to a nice write there, thank you.  Something that stands out in the writeup:

" In other words, once you light the fire you need to be home to shut the damper and air intake 2 hours later or a lot of the heat will be lost."

That's unfortunate.

Another thing I'm always wondering how folks compare this or that to a "wood stove."  Are they comparing wood usage to an EPA wood stove or a smoke dragon?



begreen said:


> I think it's super that you want to build a masonry heater into your home. It is a great way to heat. My advice would be to study systems in detail. The main flaw I see in your plan is trying to do this on the cheap. Give yourself a bigger budget to do it right. You don't want to have problems with settling, creosote accumulation, cleaning or heat dispersal just because of corner cutting.
> 
> Also, think of the masonry heater as a design element. They are great for dividing a large open floorplan into more intimate areas. Take time to study successful designs. We have had a few posted here and there are also ideas on the masonry heaters forums. Here is a thread to inspire you: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-masonry-heater.10159/
> 
> ...


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## Jags (May 14, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> Another thing I'm always wondering how folks compare this or that to a "wood stove." Are they comparing wood usage to an EPA wood stove or a smoke dragon?


 
I am not sure what they are comparing it to, but the 1/5 of the wood number is completely a fallacy.  Even if my stove is 50% efficient (which it exceeds) and the MH was 100% efficient (which it is not)...that would only be a reduction of 50% consumption.


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## Adios Pantalones (May 14, 2013)

Jags said:


> I am not sure what they are comparing it to, but the 1/5 of the wood number is completely a fallacy. Even if my stove is 50% efficient (which it exceeds) and the MH was 100% efficient (which it is not)...that would only be a reduction of 50% consumption.


I assumed they meant 1/5 less. As in- uses 80%. 20% reduction. If you have 5 logs, you only need 4.


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## Bster13 (May 14, 2013)

I think it is 4/5ths as pointed out by Woody Stover:

*"a masonry heater will use 1/5 (or much) less wood, then a home heated with a metal wood stove"*

But 20% more efficient is a big improvement as well.


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## Jags (May 14, 2013)

Adios Pantalones said:


> I assumed they meant 1/5 less. As in- uses 80%. 20% reduction. If you have 5 logs, you only need 4.


 
Okay - that, I might even be able to live with and except as possible.


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## begreen (May 14, 2013)

Wishful thinking is more like it. As tested there are several woodstoves that will meet or beat a masonry heater's efficiency. I like masonry heaters a lot, but would not expect to use less wood burning one.

"The initial hypothesis that the masonry heater would operate at 90% efficiency proved incorrect. The heater in fact operated at 79.5% efficiency."

http://pages.uoregon.edu/hof/W09HOF/21MasonryHeater_ppr.pdf


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## byQ (May 14, 2013)

It must be 20% less, and that makes more sense. I wonder what the % of heating appliances in the USA that have hearths are masonry heaters? It has to be less than 1%. It would be nice in the future if this # was up to 20%. And little MH were built more. And concepts/means were out there where a guy could build an "ugly" but efficient MH in his basement.


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## Bster13 (May 14, 2013)

Hrmm, that takes some wind out of the sails. Don't have time to read it now, but curious as to how they are measuring efficiency vs. EPA vs. LHV vs. HHV methods...



begreen said:


> Wishful thinking is more like it. As tested there are several woodstoves that will meet or beat a masonry heater's efficiency. I like masonry heaters a lot, but would not expect to use less wood burning one.
> 
> "The initial hypothesis that the masonry heater would operate at 90% efficiency proved incorrect. The heater in fact operated at 79.5% efficiency."
> 
> http://pages.uoregon.edu/hof/W09HOF/21MasonryHeater_ppr.pdf


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## Jags (May 14, 2013)

byQ said:


> It would be nice in the future if this # was up to 20%. And little MH were built more.


 
Little MH is an oxymoron.


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## Dakotas Dad (May 14, 2013)

I have a "little" MH right here in the living room.

And I don't care WHERE you put it, if it's ugly, "someone" ain't going to put up wiith it. I can only guess, but my bet is the OP is single.

And by design, if it's going to heat a whole house, it can't jus be "in the basement".. ugly or otherwise. When it's 12F outside and snowing sideways, no amount of warm rocks in the basement is going to warm her second floor bathroom.


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## byQ (May 14, 2013)

Jags said:


> Little MH is an oxymoron.


 
This is a little one, 

And this is a big one,


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## Jags (May 14, 2013)

So small - it doesn't even exist. (click on video and it reply's "this video does not exist. Even the utube link is broke.).


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## byQ (May 14, 2013)

I got the youtube  entries (couple of posts above) to work (darn those1's, l's, and I's. I guess it is meant to be.


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## Jags (May 14, 2013)

Well, I guess my point was that a MH is all about heated mass.  Enough mass at the typical MH temps that allow for fully heating most homes wouldn't be considered small in comparison to any other heating appliance.


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## begreen (May 14, 2013)

Dakotas Dad said:


> I have a "little" MH right here in the living room.
> 
> And I don't care WHERE you put it, if it's ugly, "someone" ain't going to put up wiith it. I can only guess, but my bet is the OP is single.
> 
> And by design, if it's going to heat a whole house, it can't jus be "in the basement".. ugly or otherwise. When it's 12F outside and snowing sideways, no amount of warm rocks in the basement is going to warm her second floor bathroom.


 
Well they certainly don't need to be ugly. A well designed and executed MH is an attractive and integral addition to the home.


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## Bster13 (May 14, 2013)

I think each homeowner's definition of "attractive" is different.  But an "ugly" stove is easier to change out vs. a MH for a new homeowner.


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## Sprinter (May 14, 2013)

begreen said:


> Well they certainly don't need to be ugly. A well designed and executed MH is an attractive and integral addition to the home.
> 
> View attachment 102139
> View attachment 102141
> View attachment 102142


Thanks for those pics. I think it helps a lot of us unfamiliar with the concept to see some well done examples.


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## Adios Pantalones (May 14, 2013)

Sprinter said:


> Thanks for those pics. I think it helps a lot of us unfamiliar with the concept to see some well done examples.


Retrofitting most houses with one would be a major PITA. Design a house around one and who wouldn't want one?


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## Dakotas Dad (May 14, 2013)

begreen said:


> Well they certainly don't need to be ugly. A well designed and executed MH is an attractive and integral addition to the home.


 
(Thanks for the pics, the second one looks very close to a Tulikivi we were thinking about..)

Oh, I know they can be very attractive. We looked very hard at them. Place across the river has several set up. I was comenting on the OP's..

" And concepts/means were out there where a guy could build an "ugly" but efficient MH in his basement." statement.

IF we build again, and that's a pretty big if, (we got it pretty close to perfect this time) we would very possibly go with a full MH.. and of course a house built around it.

Although.. I have this design in my head for a huge double loft barn like structure with an Equinox at each end..  That's nearly a ton of MH right there.. lol.


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## Bster13 (May 14, 2013)

How do you sweep a MH?  I have to think, even with the intense fire, it needs to be done every once in awhile?


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## Dakotas Dad (May 14, 2013)

I *think* like a rocket mass heater, that the idea is it's built in such a way that "flue fire" happens on purpose, and can't get out of control..


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## Ashful (May 14, 2013)

byQ said:


> * masonry heaters create an even heat - you're heating a big mass, wood stoves go to extremes - from hot to cold (they are just a box after all, what do you expect?)


 
I am heating a mass larger than your masonry stove, with my metal box stove. That mass is my stone house, which soaks up and radiates back... much like a masonry heater.



byQ said:


> Europeans are just smarter than Americans on certain things. And this is one of those things. They build smaller more efficient houses and they heat them with masonry heaters. "Funny Americans, they just don't know any better..."


 
I've spent time living in Europe, and am familiar with this sentiment. I would debate this with with middle-class professional Germans who drive their little Volkswagons or Audi A2's (26 hp Trabi's in the east) from their 500 sq.ft. apartments or woefully compact homes to their low-paying jobs, while thinking they were so "metropolitan".

They build smaller houses, because it is all they can afford, not because they somehow desire cramming themselves into less space. They spend a lot of money on making their homes efficient, because their government has taxed energy into the stratosphere, trying to compensate for a very inefficient economic system. Yep... they're brilliant.

That said, they don't have it all wrong. Wonderful coffee, food, beer, and attitude toward relaxation and life. It's the differences that make this world interesting.

Joful, European American


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## Dave A. (May 14, 2013)

Dakotas Dad said:


> it's built in such a way that "flue fire" happens on purpose, and can't get out of control..


 
That kind of clears the cobwebs on this, as to how all that high heat get's into the masonry -- you probably have fire running through the smoke path much of the time when the fire is burning at it's hottest.


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## DevilsBrew (May 14, 2013)

I'm only throwing this out there again. I made a request down on the Suggestions forum about adding an Alternative Stove (or whatever you want to call it) forum for those of us who don't fit in. There seems to be a growing interest in Masonry and the like. My Rocket Stove threads have ended up in the Wood Stove, Pre-1988, and DIY forums (where I now hang out talking to myself. Lol.). I'm new so I am not wanting to create any waves. Just a suggestion.


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## Dakotas Dad (May 14, 2013)

byQ said:


> Europeans are just smarter than Americans on certain things. And this is one of those things. They build smaller more efficient houses and they heat them with masonry heaters. "Funny Americans, they just don't know any better. They've actually believe wood stoves are comparable. Have you tried to tell them?...You know how Americans are. Once they start doing something they convince themselves of it's superiority even when it isn't so. They'll catch up eventually." Must we always lag behind?
> .


 
I am going to guess you have never actually been to Europe? I lived there for a decade. Married one and brought her home.

You want to know what Germans think and say about America? I can tell you first hand. Her whole family wants to come here on vacation, they don't want us to go there. Her parents come over, rent a car and just freeking drive for days. They have seen more of this country than I have! Yep most of them live in small, multi family/generation homes. Where my wife is from, Erlangen Germany, in Bavaria, bare ground, if for sale, would be about 4 million euros an acre, and would cost another million to get/have anything built on it(permits and such). That's why. Her family comes to visit, and just marvels at the 10 acres of woods, huge house and beautiful open views of our little valley, the fact that the forestmeister doesn't tell me IF I CAN, or WHICH deer to shoot, or tree to cut. etc etc etc.


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## Dakotas Dad (May 14, 2013)

DevilsBrew said:


> I'm only throwing this out there again. I made a request down on the Suggestions forum about adding an Alternative Stove (or whatever you want to call it) forum for those of us who don't fit in. There seems to be a growing interest in Masonry and the like. My Rocket Stove posts have ended up in the Wood Stove, Pre-1988, and DIY forums (where I now hang out talking to myself. Lol.). I'm new so I am not wanting to create any waves. Just a suggestion.


 
It's a good idea.. in a way.. But I fear if you think you are talking to yourself now.. it will be pure crickets in a dedicated forum. There are lots of reasons that the rocket and massonry heaters aren't really popular, some good some bad, but, unfortunatly it's fact.


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## Dave A. (May 14, 2013)

DevilsBrew said:


> I'm only throwing this out there again. I made a request down on the Suggestions forum about adding an Alternative Stove (or whatever you want to call it) forum for those of us who don't fit in. There seems to be a growing interest in Masonry and the like. My Rocket Stove threads have ended up in the Wood Stove, Pre-1988, and DIY forums (where I now hang out talking to myself. Lol.). I'm new so I am not wanting to create any waves. Just a suggestion.


 
MH's aren't exactly stoves or fireplaces. Just my opinion but without a special area for these types of heaters, would think The Green Room might be a good place .


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## begreen (May 14, 2013)

MH (and fireplaces) are covered in the main Hearth forum. Always have been.


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## DevilsBrew (May 14, 2013)

Dave A. said:


> MH's aren't exactly stoves or fireplaces. Just my opinion but without a special area for these types of heaters, would think The Green Room might be a good place .


 
Thanks for the idea, Dave.  I will try dropping my experimental stuff in there since most of it is ideas and concepts about design and not actually finished MHs.


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## pen (May 15, 2013)

The description of The Green Room is pretty clear:


> This area is for discussion and links of renewable energy and conservation NOT related to stoves - such as solar, wind and water power as well as conservation, ethanol and other evolving technologies. Long debates may be moved into the Ash Can....we would like this area to be a resource!


 
As BG said this (The Hearth Room) is the right room for discussing Masonry Heaters.  If enough interest were to arise then perhaps a dedicated room would be appropriate.  This is what happened years ago when the pellet room was created.

pen


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## firefighterjake (May 15, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> How do you sweep a MH? I have to think, even with the intense fire, it needs to be done every once in awhile?


 
The one I saw in use had access "ports" where you could run a rodded brush through to clean it out periodically . . . but that said . . . much like our EPA woodstoves . . . if you have truly seasoned wood and run the masonry heater as it should there is only a little build up of creosote or fly ash.


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## Ehouse (May 15, 2013)

There are many intermediate forms, many free standing, incorporating different amts. and types of thermal mass (soapstone, tile, plaster) many are European but there are some domestic examples (Vermont Bun Baker).  Google kachel oven for some pics.  I'd swear some are using Hearthstone castings!  Advantages include spreading out the burn, (although slower start up), touch no burn, and close clearances to combustables.


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## downeast (May 15, 2013)

True Viking here boys and girls and Webbie: we really, really didn't do all that much R & P. Just a bad rap for some wild and crazy guys looking for a good time.....in boats.

Back to reality--the OP has fallen in love with an idea. He's got some points, but let me bring you to our Masonry Stove/ Russian Fireplace decision over a decade ago when building here in a winter climate.

Much has been said before about efficiency ( never real world determined ), cost ( a lot more than any stand-alone wood stove ), space ( a home needs to be built AROUND a MH/RF ),
sizing ( byQ can't simply run out and get stones, bricks, and mortar without some PLAN for the structure ), support ( substantial foundation for the weight ), and finally the ART of building one.
Add to those facts, the experience with the many high quality wood stoves we had over the years, the cost comparison ( two high end, at the time, wood stoves new were 1/4 of the NET cost of even a self-built 
Masonry Stove/Russian Fireplace, and the extra expense to INCREASE the size of our home to accommodate the MH/RF.

Told before here -- we heat 2000 ft² with NO central furnace backup, 24/7, 2 wood stoves, harvest 6-8 cords from our woodlot each year, flush/running water/showers, and we don't enjoy discomfort.

Some advice byQ: do due diligence. "Do due diligence" ( rhymes, huh ? ). Get out and see actual  MH/RF units in use in winter. We did. They do the job well and effectively with caveats. So do all the wood stoves we use.

And please: get off this "Euro is better" schtick. They have some serious problems ; one of which is a lack of easily gotten firewood. We'll save the higher end political and economic talking points for later.


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## byQ (May 18, 2013)

I didn't know masonry heaters were exempt by the EPA. I guess they figure if it's a masonry heater it will burn effectively due to it's high heat in the firebox. If I remember right, up in Fairbanks, Alaska, wood stoves could only be used at certain times but masonry heaters could always be used. It might just be pre-EPA stoves, though.

This is an air stagnant environment in winter. Looks like the regulators are in favor of masonry heaters over wood stoves. I think the college in Fairbanks is trying to educate the public.
Notice the big common river rocks used in this large masonry heater.


They say 98% combustion efficiency and 80% efficient. I'm guessing this means that since wood always has some water in it (15-20%) you will always lose some efficiency.

I think this helps clarify combustion efficiency "......The overall efficiency of a wood heater, however it is measured, is the product of the* combustion efficiency *(sometimes called chemical efficiency) and the *heat transfer efficiency*. If all the carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen contained in the wood fuel are converted to carbon dioxide and water by combustion, then the combustion efficiency is 100%. This of course does not happen.........Combustion efficiencies are, however, high compared to heat transfer efficiencies and they are generally 90% or greater _(referring to EPA wood stoves)_.

Heat transfer efficiencies relate to the amount of the heat energy produced by the combustion process that warms the inside of the house versus what is lost out the stack. Heat transfer in the home occurs in three fashions - radiative, conductive, and convective transfer. ......."


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## byQ (May 19, 2013)

This is pretty interesting. I've never seen anything like this. He says it's a masonry heater but I see a barrel wood stove and a mass of bricks. So he has run his wood stove exhaust pipes into the thermal mass and than back into the exhaust. It's a wood stove/masonry heater hybrid?

One advantage a wood stove has over a masonry heater is that it can heat things up quickly where as a MH initially takes about 10 hours to start warming things up. He is trying to have the best of both worlds - convection and radiant heat.


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## begreen (May 19, 2013)

Often a wood heater is exempted if it is the sole source of heat. This is not based on efficiency.


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## byQ (May 19, 2013)

begreen said:


> Often a wood heater is exempted if it is the sole source of heat. This is not based on efficiency.


I know it is illegal to pass someone on the side of the road in Alaska during the winter if car broke down. So, what you say makes sense - how could a homeowner be told to stop burning in minus degree temps if all they had was a pre-EPA wood stove?


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## osagebow (May 19, 2013)

Dakotas Dad said:


> I am going to guess you have never actually been to Europe? I lived there for a decade. Married one and brought her home.
> 
> You want to know what Germans think and say about America? I can tell you first hand. Her whole family wants to come here on vacation, they don't want us to go there. Her parents come over, rent a car and just freeking drive for days. They have seen more of this country than I have! Yep most of them live in small, multi family/generation homes. Where my wife is from, Erlangen Germany, in Bavaria, bare ground, if for sale, would be about 4 million euros an acre, and would cost another million to get/have anything built on it(permits and such). That's why. Her family comes to visit, and just marvels at the 10 acres of woods, huge house and beautiful open views of our little valley, the fact that the forestmeister doesn't tell me IF I CAN, or WHICH deer to shoot, or tree to cut. etc etc etc.


 

Well said, DD!  I have heard this from my exchange students. "You have 11 acres?...on a Teacher's and nurse's salary?"  I do  respect many European ideas and ideals on food, fitness and frugality.  Have a Franzi in the fridge, gonna pour it and proclaim "Ich bin ein forestmeister!"
sorry if I screwed that translation up.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 19, 2013)

byQ said:


> I found these, too. He says a masonry heater only uses 1/5 the amount of wood as a steel wood stove - wow, this is hard to believe.
> _"....Inside, masonry stoves (heaters) burn hotter than metal wood stoves, and masonry heaters winding maze of flue (baffles) warms the surrounding masonry, which than emits heat for 18 to 24 hours. The temperature can reach 2000 F inside some masonry heaters (vs 700 F inside a metal wood stove), .. __A metal stove gives out its heat rapidly, thus never allowing the inside combustion temperatures to achieve the 1100 F plus needed to ignite all the gases...."_
> _"...Because the stored heat radiates slowly from the masonry, it is only necessary to light a fire once a day in most cases. In really cold conditions, you might need to light two fires a day. Metal wood stoves must be tended to continually, and they fluctuate from peak high temperatures, to no heat, when the fire goes out. If you tamp down the flue on a metal wood stove you increase the emissions of pollutants as the combustion of the wood is incomplete.A masonry heater will use 1/5 (or much) less wood, then a home heated with a metal wood stove. All well designed masonry heaters easily outperform the highest rated_
> _ EPA certified metal wood stoves. And like a wood stove, a masonry heater can exhaust through a metal flue pipe....."_


ID have to call BS on that 1/5 as much wood claim. There are only so many BTUs in a given piece of wood. No matter what kind of stove its burning in.
ALso my wood stove internal temp is WAY WAY over 700 deg. The outside is 700 degrees ,the inside is 1500+ in the ceramic reburn chamber.
Also i only do one fire a day on many winter days and very cold days its 2 loads of wood. So my wood stove match's the MH on all those points.


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## DevilsBrew (May 19, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> ID have to call BS on that 1/5 as much wood claim.


 
I just watched a workshop where the individuals had nothing at all positive to say about metal stoves. The financial and political motivations of individuals need to be taken into context when grandiose claims of a product's efficiency are declared.


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## Hogwildz (May 19, 2013)

I smell someone that doesn't seem to have any wood burning appliance, and thumbs through the internet and now thinks they are a complete encyclopedia of information regarding Europe, USA & all wood burning appliances. You ain't building no MH for $2k. Don't care how you want to explain it, it ain't happening. I think someone missed a few doses of meds.


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## pen (May 20, 2013)

This thread has more than run its course.

closed.

pen


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