# New Member New Harman p38 Big problems



## stormy873 (Oct 23, 2010)

Hello all,
I am hoping that some forum members will have an easy answer for my very frustrating problem.  I am a new owner of a Harman p-38 and oh boy do I seem to have problems.  I am located in Oregon and researched stoves for YEARS before settling on the Harman p38 based on the simplicity of design and the overwhelming positive reviews of the stove.

Stove was installed one week ago and the dealer is rather new to the Harman line so I am having trouble articulating the issues with the stove.  Basically, short of the application of jet fuel (just kidding) -it won't light.  I am a handy and skilled farm woman and I can get just about anything lit but this stove has something severely amiss and since my dealer seems to be only slightly more knowledgeable than me, I could use some help in articulating my problem and what issues I believe that the stove is trying to "tell me" in its performance.

Simply put when I turn the stove on it does NOT reliably go into test mode.  The combustion fan will run but the auger does not feed and the blower does not blow.  1 to 2 times out of 10 the stove will run the test mode.  The dealer has been out and told us be "aggressive" when starting the stove.  If I attempt to light it when it hasn't run the full test mode the stove will either go out, or feebly burn the pellets in the pot and then go out because the auger does not supply pellets to fuel a fire.  With absolute dedication and the AMPLE application of starter gel I have got a fire or two going over the past week but it was, I assure you through my absolute "won't quit until it is lit" determination.  When the service guy came up he commented that the stove was filthy for having only one bag of pellets through it so as I said, I believe I willed it to burn rather than getting a correct burn out of it.

If I turn the stove to turbo mode it will run the test mode-most of the time but does not run the test mode when I operate according to the instructions.  "IF" I do get a normal test mode 7 out of 8 times I get a fire lit it will burn feebly, then peter out and die. I believe I have either a board issue or an issue with the draft pressure switch which is not allowing the stove to go through a normal test mode and operate.  Any suggestions about how to articulate these issues in terms my service guy can understand?

Thanks,

Stormy AKA cold in Oregon


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## Lousyweather (Oct 23, 2010)

Stormy-

Welcome-

Your issue can be ALOT of things......

First off, the unit will not feed pellets until there is an appreciable fire in the pot, so, fill the burn pot half full or so, and use a LIBERAL amount of gel....light the unit, close the door, as well as the hopper lid, switch the unit in test mode for a minute or so, then take it out of test mode, and put it back in immediately.....the fire, after two cycles should be large enough for the unit to run on its own.

Unfortunately, there are alot of other issues that couldbe causing a problem....is there outside air installed? If so, did the installer forget to take the cutout out of the insulation blanked in the passthru? Is the intake damper stuck? Is the hopper seal intact, or leaking? Is the hopper seal at the bottom leaking? Has the dealer taken a draft reading upon installation, and now taking one now that there is an issue? The draft reading might be helpful here......hopefully they took one....

Sorry, but there are a myraid of reasons the unit wont feed....just trying to rule stuff out!


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## Delta-T (Oct 23, 2010)

i dunno if this will help at all, but my technique for lighting the P38 is as follows:

I put 2 heaping handfulls of pellets into the pot.
I put 3 tablespoons of ignition fluid onto pellets and mix gently into top layer of pellets
I light said pellets and fluid and let them burn (door open, stove in off position)
Once several (7-10) of the pellets have about 50% red embers established (usually about 3 minutes to get to this point) I turn the stove to any "on" position (usually 2-3, but it doesn't matter much, door still open)
I close the door most of the way (open 1-2 inches) and wait to make sure the rush of air is not going to blow the embers out.
Once the fire takes hold I close the door all the way and within a few minutes the stove is going.

I find the "test" mode of the P38 elusive sometimes as well. If you dont turn from "off" to "turbo" in one smooth motion it gets confused and doesn't know you want test mode.
Make sure the lil door for the burnpot cleanout (face of burnpot with the wing nut) is closed securely as this can give you very poor combustion (air leaking out the face rather than through the pellets).

I also agree with everything Lousyweather says, could be a lot of things, but more often than not its something small.


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## Jim H. (Oct 23, 2010)

is that normal?  seems like a lot of work just to light......


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## summit (Oct 23, 2010)

be very aggressive starting the fire: I had one of these, and it takes getting used to:

fill pot at least 2/3rds full... douse with gel, mix it into a stew with the pellets. light match, throw match in, close door. turn from "off" to turbo in a fluid motion, no stops! after auger has made several revolutions, turn it to #4.
This thing takes a good 10 mins to get to temp to make the auger start turning on it's own, and about another 10 mins till the distribution fan starts up. I would reccommend putting the thermostat on this thing for the cold season so keeping it lit and the area at temp is not such a crapshoot. Get a thermo w/ an "off" switch (robertshaw makes one, and any hearthstone dealer will have one as well) so you can bypass the tstat operation if you desire. GOOD LUCK!

one last thing: check the air intake/ flapper, make sure it is not sticking! this will cause some of the issues you have described. Usually does not happen on a new stove, but it is not outside the realm of possibility.


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## summit (Oct 23, 2010)

check electrical outlet polarity, door gaskets, seals, and draft adjustment (small white screw on back of control board... unplug stove 1st!), these cause issue in the p38 more than any other Harman Stove.


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## slvrblkk (Oct 24, 2010)

WOW...this is a new Harman and that's what it takes to light that thing???? That is insane.....for what those things cost it should load the pellets and light them automatically for you! 

Stormy...welcome to the forum and good luck with your problem!


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## krooser (Oct 24, 2010)

Delta-T said:
			
		

> i dunno if this will help at all, but my technique for lighting the P38 is as follows:
> 
> I put 2 heaping handfulls of pellets into the pot.
> I put 3 tablespoons of ignition fluid onto pellets and mix gently into top layer of pellets
> ...



That's pretty much exactly how I've been starting my St. Croix since my ignitor failed... I will replace it but right now I'm simply using hand sanitzer to start the stove... works very well.


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## stormy873 (Oct 24, 2010)

Thanks for the replies so far.  I have tried just about every possible scenario to light this thing and I am really getting pissed.  I tried (Delta-P's- I think) suggested method of lighting the stove by running it with the door open and then turning it on and it worked and worked very well,  I do have an issue with lighting in in that manner tho.  If I wanted a smoke filled house with an open flame I wouldn't have dropped over $2 grand on a pellet stove.

Shouldn't the stove light and operate as outlined by the manufacturer's explicit instructions?  To me, anything less represents a defective product or incorrect installation.  My instruction manual specifically states NOT to leave the door open, to run a test mode which will start when I turn the stove on 1.  The test modes it should run auger, blower and combustion for about one minute.  Then, and only then am I directed to light the stove. (making a pellet/jell mix and filling the hopper as outlined by illustration in the manual.)

Am I being unreasonable, is there a different "real world" of pellet stove operation?  You know what the manual says versus what you have to do?  I want to be fair to the dealer but I purchased the stove based on serious  study of the manual, all the technical supportive documentation and training manuals (Harman dealer inadvertently gave me access to the dealer site, some time back) and I am struggling to figure out if should insist on returning the stove or if this is the reality of pellet stove ownership-they don't work as promised. 

I can't emphasize enough that I am good with fire- I understand how to make it go.  If someone needs a bunch a wet fir branches burned in February- I can torch them.  I am not a feline when it comes to lighting a fire and I can't get this stove lit using the "directions" or anything close to the directions outlined in the operation manual.


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## imacman (Oct 24, 2010)

Stormy said:
			
		

> .....I do have an issue with lighting in in that manner tho.  If I wanted a smoke filled house with an open flame I wouldn't have dropped over $2 grand on a pellet stove........
> 
> Shouldn't the stove light and operate as outlined by the manufacturer's explicit instructions?  To me, anything less represents a defective product or incorrect installation.......
> 
> Am I being unreasonable.......



I am with you on this....for what a Harman costs compared to most other stoves, what you're going through is ridiculous.  But this all goes back to what most forum members agree on....having a dealer who KNOWS his/her product is key.  Unfortunately, you bought from one that hasn't got a clue.

If this was me, I'd ask the dealer to come "fix" the stove, or take it back for a full refund.  There are many other stoves on the market (Enviro, Travis Ind., Englander, etc) that are MUCH easier to use......and they have auto ignition for much less $$.


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## summit (Oct 24, 2010)

p 43 is only 300 more....


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## krooser (Oct 24, 2010)

What kind of venting system do you have installed?


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## stormy873 (Oct 24, 2010)

You all are going to think I am really stupid but I bought the p-38 on purpose because I wanted something simple...Never figured lighting a fire would be this hard.

The major reason I went with the Harman over other brands was because I had less than four feet to an operable window in the only location it will fit in my home. I needed a stove that would allow installation within 18 inches of an operable window and that limited my choices severely.  The only other brand that met my needs in terms of stove size and venting was the Envio and from my reading it seemed to be rather trouble prone. I was unable to locate other brands that had a small stove which would fit within my space limitations...I really want  this Harman to work.  

I specifically choose a manual light system because I hoped that with a less complex circuit board I would have as less danger of burning it out when running on a generator.  Something we have to deal with on a regular basis during winter storms.  And yes, I am planning on running it with a Honda 2000i inverter generator because of the clean power it produces.  I also have a three year old Robin Subaru 8000 watt generator but worry that the power wouldn't be clean enough to insure it didn't damage my stove. So, as you can see for "poor" working folk we have made what is a HUGE investment in winter heat.  We have been saving for years and years for this stove so I am broken hearted that it has been such a pain in the butt.

About this time you are probably wondering why the heck I didn't go with propane or natural gas.  Well, #1 I am scared to death of it and since I live in mountains in Oregon with the closest natural gas line 30 miles and a hundred years away from being installed in my area.  Propane here is ungodly expensive at almost  $3.00 a gallon with delivery surcharges that bring it near $3.25 a gallon.  

The stove is installed with outside air and with the Harman minimum wall vent configuration. The draft testing by the first service guy indicated we had ample draw even in the minimum configuration.  We would certainly go up the outside wall if necessary but venting through the roof is not an option and we have virtually NO eaves (manufactured home) so this is an ideal configuration-if it works.  We also deal with copious winter snow (you'd think I lived in upper state New York and not within 30 miles of the floor of the Willamette valley) add to that a standing seam roof that slides snow like nobodies business and you can see why the simple lateral piping is preferable-again, if it works.  Due to the danger of snow shear from it sliding off the roof we are in the process of building a free standing "cricket" of sorts to try and protect the pipe from shearing off the side of the house...And yes, the snow is that much of an issue.

I really appreciate all of the advice and the knowledge base of the forum and welcome any and all suggestions.  Thank you for your assistance.

Stormy


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## Cincinnati Kid (Oct 24, 2010)

Stormy, I had the same issues as you are experiencing when iIfirst purchased my P-38.  I always struggled lighting the stove with gel.

I have switched to 92% alcohol which I buy at Walmart for under $3.00 a bottle which lasts all season.  Take a few hand fulls of pellets and put them in a bowl or other type of container.  Pour in the alcohol to cover the pellets.  Soak for 10 minutes minimum.  Drain the pellets, (you can pour the used alcohol back in the original bottle and reuse again.)

dump the pellets in the firebox and light the stove.  Then turn on the pellet feed to one or two.

Works every time for me with no problems!


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## Jim H. (Oct 24, 2010)

this is really nuts....the only thing you guys don't do is chop wood!   Why not a self lighting stove?  Just curious.  I hope you get it worked out.....wow.


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## m159267 (Oct 24, 2010)

Thought I would chime in with my 'no issue' method of lighting my P38.
First thing I do is make sure all doors are closed and turn the setting to turbo.
I do this to verify that the auger will turn confirming there are no other issues.
After a couple of seconds the auger should turn, I then shut everything off and....

I place a handful of pellets into a plastic (1 pound) coffee container.
Squirt a generous amount of gel, cover and shake about 15-20 times.
Repeat with a second handful of pellets.
I let the container sit while I clean the stove from its previous burn (1-3 minutes).
Dump the pellets into the pot, light and close the door.
I turn the fan to 5 and set to Turbo.
After several minutes you should have a roaring fire (if not there are other issues).
Once the distribution fan turns on (usually 5-10 minutes) I adjust my settings to desired levels.

The only deviation to this occurred when I had apparently had a 'bad' batch of pellets 
(don't remember the brand) that were difficult to light. I had to open the door slightly to get them going.


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## Lousyweather (Oct 24, 2010)

dont forget, dudes and dueettes, that there has been a circuitboard revision for the P38 fairly recently, and we might be dealing with an improper dip switch setting as well (these new settings are different than previous ones).

Since you do in fact have an outside air kit, is it at all possible your inexperienced installer didnt remove the insulation disc in the intake of the passthru? 

Also, I dont agree that the door should be left open after lighting....light it, close the door. if you have to puit it in test mode once or twice, do so....I outlined this procedure earlier. Other than the alcohol thing, his procedure is quite good and sound.  I dont like using straight alcohol due to the flammability aspect....the available gels usually are somewhat retarded so they dont flare up as much.......alcohol is very flammable, and could result in fire issues if used not carefully......

As i said earlier, there could actually be a bad part in the unit, and it would be REALLY NICE to see a draft reading on this thing.......again, your dealer should have done this upon install......not that it helps, and I feel your pain, but the dealer is at least half of the stove-buying equation. They should be willing to check this thing out....even thought the P38 is non-autoigniting, it should be light-able. Usually the lighting issues with these things are the customer doing something wrong (tho im sure likely not in your case)....we had a customer using very little gel in one......they'd go to light it and the gel would burn out before the unit could get up to temperature, so, it wouldnt feed or stay lit. 

Also, dont forget to close the front door, the ash door, and the hopper lid....the p38 WILL NOT feed with any one of the above open.

In answer to your question about how to articulate these issues to te "repairman", I would insist on a draft test, see what the readings are, and go from there. The circuitboard might be at fault, so, he ought to bring another with him (any dealer worth their salt keeps extra anyhow). The vac switch RARELY fails.....VERY rarely..........ever so rarely (Im saying here its probs not your issue).....

let us know! We'll get this figured out.


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## slls (Oct 24, 2010)

Return it for a auto light, hand starting is like a hand crank car.


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## Lousyweather (Oct 24, 2010)

slls said:
			
		

> Return it for a auto light, hand starting is like a hand crank car.



nothing wrong with starting with gel....less to go wrong...once you know how to do it, youre good....P61 here, starting it with gel for 9 years now


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## jtakeman (Oct 24, 2010)

Lousyweather said:
			
		

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I have done both and much prefer the auto ignite(I am much lazier in my old age now). But once you get used to the manual ignite stove its not so bad. Just need to think ahead some. 

I've seen both sides as family members have a P38 and a P43. The P43 has seen 2 new igniters over the last couple of years and the P38 has had no repairs at all. I don't think paying for a years supply of gel would be more than the cost of 1 igniter. So there are pros and cons for both sides of this fence! Its all in the eyes of the owner(and the cash in the wallet).

Can we say debate??? hehe!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 24, 2010)

j-takeman said:
			
		

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Jay aren't you going to plug the propane torch method of manual lighting?


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## jtakeman (Oct 24, 2010)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

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Well I was going to but you do get a nasty wood smell when you do it with a torch on a P38. I tried it on the P38 and my sis wasn't happy with me. Hard to keep the door closed with your arm in the stove! Works great on my Omega because the combustion blower is running and sucks the smoke and smell out the vent. I prefer map gas too!


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## vvvv (Oct 24, 2010)

alcohol, a flammable liquid @ $3/qt has been mentioned so i'll add k2 @ 3$/gal..........what i do, because of my wizdome, is dangerous? but easy! pm me if u wanna talk= long story & i hate to type


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## summit (Oct 24, 2010)

Lousyweather said:
			
		

> dont forget, dudes and dueettes, that there has been a circuitboard revision for the P38 fairly recently, and we might be dealing with an improper dip switch setting as well (these new settings are different than previous ones).
> 
> Since you do in fact have an outside air kit, is it at all possible your inexperienced installer didnt remove the insulation disc in the intake of the passthru?
> 
> ...



therer are no dip switches on the p38 circuit board.


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## jtakeman (Oct 24, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

> alcohol, a flammable liquid @ $3/qt has been mentioned so i'll add k2 @ 3$/gal..........what i do, because of my wizdome, is dangerous? but easy! pm me if u wanna talk= long story & i hate to type



Pook,

Its a brandy new stove and still has a warranty! Instant "void" written right in the manual.

Recommending a big "BOOM" is a no-no too! We know your a trained pro, But! :red:


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## ChandlerR (Oct 25, 2010)

Wow, I agree...That's a lot of work to start a stove.  I put a handful of pellets in my burn pot, squirt some gel on it, light it, close the door and push "start"  Done. Stove is putting out heat in under 10 minutes.  I actually feel badly saying this!  I would be very, very, upset if I had to do what some of you guys have done to start the stove....wow!

Chan


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## Nick857 (Oct 25, 2010)

The best information I read on this site was to mix the gel and pellets in a cup then dump them into the stove. I had a lot of trouble lighting our p38 at first but that helped a lot. Before that I was just spraying the gel in as the owners manual shows and that almost never worked for me.


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## MCPO (Oct 25, 2010)

I`m on my third season with a P-38 and mine  is not the easiest stove to manually light with gel.
 However after much experimenting I concluded that the 91% alcohol ($2.49 per quart Wal mart) to be the most reliable (and quite safe) to use with the stove. It really isn`t any more flammable than the alcohol gel especially when most of the excess is drained off before dumping into the pot . Just light it shortly after and not let it sit for too long before lighting because the vapors could build up within  the firebox and cause flashing when lighting . I`ve not yet experienced any flashing from the vapors.  
  If the combustion fan is running this shouldn`t even be a problem anyway since the vapors are evacuated.
 Here`s my reliable and safe lighting method: 
 Scrape out burn pot remains of previous fire,  turn the heat dial to # 2-3 , verify the combustion fan starts, dump in a cup of alcohol / pellet mix , light it and close the door.  After 5 -15 min the blower fan should come on.  
 .


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## erollins (Oct 25, 2010)

Have you tried a different brand or even different batch of pellets for starting the stove?  Not that I have any experience with pellet stoves, but when the wood stoves I have experience with don't burn well I first consider the wood I am using.  I use different wood to start a fire than to produce a lot of heat, or hold the fire overnight, so shouldn't that apply to pellets as well?  Poor quality, damp, or green wood will burn in a roaring fire, but won't light with a match.


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## vvvv (Oct 25, 2010)

j-takeman said:
			
		

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i think warranty specifies NO FLAMMABLE LIQUIDS . the exaggerated pic simply states that uve never actually tried k2..another bias?


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## tgloersen (Oct 25, 2010)

My Auto igniter broke on my H. P-68 a couple of years ago. So i just take a couplee hand-fulls of pellets and throw them in the burn pot, then i take a soldering torch and light them with that, get a nice flame going close the door and away it goes. Works pretty good and i don't have to buy fluid.

Then agin is i just get off my lazy butt, i can fix the auot-igniter..which would make life easier. ;-)


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## DAKSY (Oct 25, 2010)

Since you do in fact have an outside air kit, is it at all possible your inexperienced installer didnt remove the insulation disc in the intake of the passthru? 

+1. Pull the O/S air.


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## smwilliamson (Oct 25, 2010)

DAKSY said:
			
		

> Since you do in fact have an outside air kit, is it at all possible your inexperienced installer didnt remove the insulation disc in the intake of the passthru?
> 
> +1. Pull the O/S air.



x2


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## jtakeman (Oct 25, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

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Don't need to try K2. I use a propane torch w/map gas and no "BOOM"! This time yep, I'm Biased! ;-P


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## vvvv (Oct 25, 2010)

j-takeman said:
			
		

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takes me well under 1 min to light & walk away= sawdut cup+handfull of pellets+tsp k2+lit crumpled newspaper+ placing coverplate..........what u got?


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## MCPO (Oct 25, 2010)

~*~vvv~*~ said:
			
		

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The torch method does not work good in my Harman P38 , It takes too long to get going and the smell permeates the air with the door open for that long.  K2 works but not quite as good or reliable as alcohol ,at least in my stove. 
 My #2 choice is charcoal lighter fluid, no smell, no flashing or mini explosions. 
 We have to conclude that no one method or starting media is suited best for each of us or our particular stove since there are varying conditions in each of our installations. One has to experiment with his/her own stove to determine what works best .


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## jtakeman (Oct 25, 2010)

Gio said:
			
		

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Indeed, Do what works for you. Pook the map gas/torch is about 30 seconds with my arm in the stove. Close door walk away. (What's even easier is the auto igniter. I need to to nada!)  But it didn't work on the P38. Soaking the pellets in gell is what my sis has gotten used too! I bought a case for them a xmas. Should last many seasons and it works for them!


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## vvvv (Oct 25, 2010)

j-takeman said:
			
		

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& ure still inbounds with the NO FLAMMABLE LIQUIDS ! so u win but i start my stove 1 or 2 times a day & mapp gas costs?


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## Lousyweather (Oct 26, 2010)

summit said:
			
		

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check out the latest technical newsletter, dated 9/28/2010, could be a typo, but bullet #2 under P38 mentions dipswitches......havent seen any yet, but there could be dipswitches on them.....now I have to call harman and find out...stay tuned


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## Delta-T (Oct 26, 2010)

just an edit to my previously posted method for lighting the P-38....you could close the door if it makes you uncomfortable, or fills you house with the smell of burning. Its not hard stuff, but it does take some successful lights to know what you're looking for, to know you're going to be successful, hmmm, thats kinda circular logic isn't it. I've never gotten any smoke form this method (as the only thing really burning for the first minute or so is alcohol vapor. I do like the torch too, but thats not for everyone.


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## ducker (Oct 26, 2010)

I go with the torch method; and have for the past 2 years .  Love it. I don't mind the smell of the burning pellets, as I sometimes miss out of my old wood burning stove 

A couple of handfuls of pellets, torch on it for 1-2 minutes.  close the door - done.

I'm on the same torch that I originally bought, and starting my 3rd season with it.


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## bayfeet (Oct 26, 2010)

propane torch for my p38, works like a charm, feeding pellets in less than five minutes.  ed


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## summit (Oct 27, 2010)

Lousyweather said:
			
		

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looked at it, new circuit board, I havent seen any come thru with it yet, though... thx for the tip, maybe she has one, but if she has had it for over a month then she probably does not have the dip switches, just a rookie harman dealer


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## stormy873 (Oct 27, 2010)

UPDATE: Oh, OK now I am *REALLY* mad.

I just got home from a long day at work and had a message on my phone based on the email I sent to the dealer.

It was Mike, you know the stove technician who they sent out to look at the stove, the one who said he'd never seen a Harman before that day and the one who couldn't get it lit without resorting to the "light it, leave the door open and then turn it on method of operation. "  I am so steaming mad I can hardly manage to write this.  Long story short, old Mike (ya know the one who hasn't been to any of the Harman training classes per his conversation with my husband) called to inform us that the problem wasn't with the stove but with our lack of ability to light it properly and that under NO circumstances should we light it, leave the door open and then turn it on... Yes, folks that would be the very same Mike who was not able to get the stove lit without resorting to the light it, leave the door cracked, THEN turn the stove on method himself.

You see, according to him we we are just not being aggressive enough starting the fire.  We are not putting on sufficient starter gel or enough fuel in the stove to get it to a temperature where it will kick on.  UGH!  Ya know, I went through an entire 16 ounce bottle of starter gel to get my first BAG of pellets lit and I can assure you I am NOT A feline when it come to getting enough fuel in the hopper to get this thing going.  And yes, in case there is any doubt I even put a torch to the pellet with starter gel on them and as SOON as I closed the door, out goes the fire.  

I swear this stove CAN NOT be lit if I follow the instructions in the manual.  Lights like a dream if you get a nice fire going before you close the door and turn it on but it immediately dies if you do anything else.  The only thing I can think to do is to video the procedure and put it on You tube so that forum members (which seem to be the only one's that have a clue) can get a look-see at the fire or lack of fire behavior.  I have also trekked around the country and purchased two other brands of stove pellets so I can see if it could somehow be a pellet related issue.

My personal inclination is that something ain't right with this stove. Whether it be a leak, to much outside air, not enough air I don't have a clue.  All I know is that I have found another oddity that I wonder if it is of significance... If I hold something behind and near the bottom of the stove that is smoking (cigarette/incense stick) the smoke is sucked in through the back of the stove with a force better than any exhaust fan I have in the house...Seems odd considering I am supposed to have outside air, doesn't it?

So here is where I stand.  Stove was installed with no draft tests done at any time during the installation.  Installer did not start or run the stove at completion of installation.  Hapless homeowner, is apparently to dumb to light a fire.   My Harman stove, wanna love it... glad I paid for it via credit card-ability to dispute charges-priceless.

NOTE:
If anyone from Harman is monitoring this forum.  Please feel fee to get in touch with me directly.  I work for an internet  marketing genius and know how to buy buy placement that will allow my troubles with this stove to appear at the top of any search related to Harman stoves. Do not piss me off.

Forum Members, again many, many thanks to you for your help and advice.  You have all been so helpful during this process and I look forward to your suggestions.

Stormy


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 27, 2010)

Stormy said:
			
		

> UPDATE: Oh, OK now I am *REALLY* mad.
> 
> NOTE:
> If anyone from Harman is monitoring this forum.  Please feel fee to get in touch with me directly.  I work for an internet  marketing genius and know how to buy buy placement that will allow my troubles with this stove to appear at the top of any search related to Harman stoves. Do not piss me off.
> ...



I've always wanted to meet a black hat SEO type.

I suggest you go see the dealer in person, invite him or her over to light your stove according to the manual.  Forget Mike and the stupid games.


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## MCPO (Oct 27, 2010)

I see little wrong (have done it myself) leaving the door cracked open for a minute or two to allow for a stronger starting fire to build up since the combustion blower vents the smoke and gases quite well. Leaving the door cracked open diminishes the strong air flow that can blow out the early stage of a starting fire.
 The Harman under fire air seems to be strong and concentrated and inherently tougher to light than my Englander and I am in fact more aggressive lighting this stove. 
 Thats why I use 91% alcohol or charcoal lighting fluid instead of the gel. I find these two alternative products to be easy to use , much more reliable , and as safe as the gel. And as a bonus they are significantly less costly.
 I know the users manual explicitly state you use their recommend method(s) only but they have to be overly guarded that they don`t leave themselves open to accident law suits due to a careless operator.
 The user manual that comes with the stove is an excellent guide but it`s made to *generally* cover most installations and situations and for anything not in the book you are at the mercy of the dealer. 
 And for that reason , as much as I like my Harman P-38 ,  my next stove will probably be another Englander. The solution to a problem is in most cases just a phone call away.


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## Countryboymo (Oct 27, 2010)

I have heard people using totally different starting procedures but didn't really realize why until this post.  I think you will get it ironed out but think there might be something wrong with the install of the stove or air kit.  I think part of it is just getting used to it.  

I run downstairs and turn the lever on the stat all the way to the right and run back up.  I go back down 10 mins later and there is fire.  It is really rather boring as I always loved rolling up a ton of newspaper and gathering other items to get the wood furnace at the farm going when I was younger for my parents.  I burned so many things that were not supposed to go in there its not funny...maybe on second thought it is best for me to have auto ignition.

I do have some spare 30% nitromethane from my R/C truck I can send to help fire that stove up.  Mix a little of that with some pellets....hmmm I will be back I am going to try something....


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## tgloersen (Oct 27, 2010)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Right on Jay!!  Thats exactly what i do, i'm burning in a matter of seconds!!


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## Lousyweather (Oct 28, 2010)

Stormy said:
			
		

> UPDATE: Oh, OK now I am *REALLY* mad.
> 
> I just got home from a long day at work and had a message on my phone based on the email I sent to the dealer.
> 
> ...



gotta admit, Sotrym, at first I was thinking the same thing......this girl isnt using enough gel! But now that youve said ou used THAT much, I'll throw my hat in as well and say there might be a stove issue or a stove DEALER issue here (installation error?).......I dont think its Harman's fault, as they rely on the dealer for their eyes on the street. My money is on an inexperienced installer/dealer. Still dont like lighting it with the door open either......lol......

As for threatening to defame someone, possibly unnecissarily, and Im no lawyer, but that can create more problems than it might cure.......you seem quite intelligent, so Im sure you know what the legal ramifications of such might be. I asked this before....will only once more.....DID HE TAKE A DRAFT READING?


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## slvrblkk (Oct 28, 2010)

Lousyweather said:
			
		

> Stormy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



she said he did not .....

*So here is where I stand.  Stove was installed with no draft tests done at any time during the installation.  Installer did not start or run the stove at completion of installation.*


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## smwilliamson (Oct 28, 2010)

From my recolection, even if he did take a draft reading....there is no way to adjust the draft on a P38. Am I wrong on this??? There is no dipswitch. Heck, there is not even a diagnostic tool port. What good would a draft reading be?


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## stormy873 (Oct 28, 2010)

Hey, I wasn't going to defame anyone... I would simply make certain my woes made it to the top of the internet search sites- That way if other people go to research a p-38 they would have the opportunity to know that *sometimes* they aren't that easy to light.  You will notice I have never uttered the dealer name or hinted at my location-other than Oregon. <G>  And, I don't intend to be nasty or vindictive but I am a real hardworking person, this is a huge investment for me and I simply do not feel the dealer has provided much in the way of service.

I'll put it this way, when the stove was installed, I walked outside and looked at the exit pipe, whipped out my trusty tape and had to walk over and tell the installer that the pipe didn't exit far enough from the wall to meet our county code.  Then, I asked the guy when he planned to bolt the stove down (also county code for a manufactured home)...hadn't done that either.  By this time, I was suffering a loss of confidence in the process.  Being that I am "just the woman" and this was manly work I didn't insist on a draft test because I was trying to stay out of the way and not be the pushy/picky woman that installers hate.  Image my surprise when the guy loaded up and drove out my driveway when I fully expected him to come back to the house and do a test fire!

I honestly have to say my entire experience in trying to purchase and get this stove installed has been like some strange trip to the Twilight zone.  Harman stoves are not a real common brand in the NW but there is a dealer network-of sorts.  I spent the better part of a YEAR begging any dealer within 100 miles to come out and make a service/pre-install call to verify the stove could and would legally fit in only location within my house that it could be installed.  And yes, I offered to pay for the call and yes, I had cash in hand to buy the stove. 

The dealer I used would not have been my first choice but he at least sent someone out to look at our install location.  They knew far less about the product than I did but they were a long time Quadrafire dealer and I figured they had to know something about stoves... The only thing I can figure in the end is that most people are not educated consumers.  They purchase by "snap decision" and they just pay or do whatever the dealer invoice says and really don't care if the product works or not.  For some, the thrill is in the purchase not the use and enjoyment of the product.  Me, I am looking to be safe and warm.

As an update, I ventured out buying competing brands of stove pellets to try in the stove and the Golden Fire pellets I purchased lit  MUCH easier than the pellets that came with the stove.  The dealer offered a free ton of pellets with the stove purchase only offered a $135 discount if I didn't take them... The brand they delivered were not a brand I know much about and so I may have been better offer buying one of the local premier brands with a long time reputation for product quality.  

So that is my story up to the minute.

Stormy


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## Lousyweather (Oct 28, 2010)

smwilliamson said:
			
		

> From my recolection, even if he did take a draft reading....there is no way to adjust the draft on a P38. Am I wrong on this??? There is no dipswitch. Heck, there is not even a diagnostic tool port. What good would a draft reading be?



a draft reading will often tell you if there is an intake/ehaust obstructio, can also diagnose misbehaving parts (sometimes)........no, cant adjust the draft, correct, but thats not the main reason we test  draft. It also gives us a baseline on the new stove.....write the reading down in the manual, so, if you have to go back later, a changed draft will often indicate issues, such as poor maintenance.


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## smwilliamson (Oct 28, 2010)

Lousyweather said:
			
		

> smwilliamson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good point. I do take draft measurements on all new stove installations with the exception of Englander. I usually check it against the reccomendation, I'll start cataloging from now on as yes, I can see the benefit of looking back in time.

Still, there is no excuse for not starting the stove after the install and having that much needed one on one with the homeowner.

Thus further highlighting the differences between SALES and SERVICE dealerships.

I do not work on many P38's but do from time to time and I work on a lot of P61's (own one myself) and have never had a problem lighting them that I couldn't resolve.

Sounds like the installer needs to come back for some face time. Reversing those charges ought to light a fire...pun intended. %-P


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## Delta-T (Oct 28, 2010)

there actually is a draft adjustment pot on the back of the P38 board.....its sneaky, and not very convenient.


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## MCPO (Oct 28, 2010)

Oh yeah , the P-38 does have a draft adjustment . (not sure about newest ones)
   You need to remove the 2 control panel screws , tilt forward to access the trim pot on the rear and turn it back (counter clockwise) with a small flat blade screwdriver. (disconnect power first) 
  When I first got my P-38 I found it hard to start so I (repeating myself here) turned the draft adjustment trim pot all the way back. (counterclock wise)
 It helped a lot. My chimney is a 7"rd ,  SS , and 24 ft high and consequently has a strong draft.
 I never did a draft test though.


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## MCPO (Oct 28, 2010)

Oh yeah , the P-38 does have a draft adjustment . (not sure about newest ones)
   You need to remove the 2 control panel screws , tilt forward to access the trim pot on the rear and turn it back (counter clockwise) with a small flat blade screwdriver. (disconnect power first) 
  When I first got my P-38 I found it hard to start so I (repeating myself here) turned the draft adjustment trim pot all the way back. (counterclock wise) Page 18 in users manual.
 It helped a lot. My chimney is a 7"rd ,  SS , and 24 ft high and consequently has a strong draft.
 I never did a draft test though.


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## slls (Oct 28, 2010)

Stormy said:
			
		

> Hey, I wasn't going to defame anyone... I would simply make certain my woes made it to the top of the internet search sites- That way if other people go to research a p-38 they would have the opportunity to know that *sometimes* they aren't that easy to light.  You will notice I have never uttered the dealer name or hinted at my location-other than Oregon. <G>  And, I don't intend to be nasty or vindictive but I am a real hardworking person, this is a huge investment for me and I simply do not feel the dealer has provided much in the way of service.
> 
> I'll put it this way, when the stove was installed, I walked outside and looked at the exit pipe, whipped out my trusty tape and had to walk over and tell the installer that the pipe didn't exit far enough from the wall to meet our county code.  Then, I asked the guy when he planned to bolt the stove down (also county code for a manufactured home)...hadn't done that either.  By this time, I was suffering a loss of confidence in the process.  Being that I am "just the woman" and this was manly work I didn't insist on a draft test because I was trying to stay out of the way and not be the pushy/picky woman that installers hate.  Image my surprise when the guy loaded up and drove out my driveway when I fully expected him to come back to the house and do a test fire!
> 
> ...



The unit should be grounded to the frame in a manufactured home also.


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## woodsman23 (Oct 29, 2010)

scrap it and move on.....


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## stormy873 (Nov 6, 2010)

UPDATE:

After spending a few more days attempting to figure out the stove, I threw in the towel and contacted the dealer again.  This time, I copied the manual and went line by line through the starting procedure adding my comments in red.  Apparently it did the trick as they finally called Harman who it seems has decided that I need to have the board replaced...Am hopeful, oh so hopeful that this will correct my issues.

Elise
with 3 tons of pellets
for my 1000 square foot house
now all I need is a functional stove!


http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj35/stormy873/Harman/harmansml.jpg


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## imacman (Nov 6, 2010)

Elise, please make sure to keep us up-to-date on this.  I'll be very curious as to what happens when a new board is installed.  

And am I correct in assuming that the DEALER will be coming to your home to install AND TEST FIRE the stove??  I would suggest that you have a list of any questions you have ready to ask while the dealer is there.

Oh, and for those poor quality pellets.....if you get the stove working you could always mix them with the better quality ones at about a 3-1 ratio (3 good to 1 poor)....unless the dealer is willing to swap for a better brand.


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## stormy873 (Nov 13, 2010)

UPDATE....Or yes, it does get worse.

First, allow me just a moment of whining...We are just working folks and we have invested heart and soul and all our winter heating resources into a pellet stove.  I am just brokenhearted and now I am cold because now my stove does not work at all.

Several days prior to the scheduled board replacement we were sitting round the old pellet stove when suddenly the fan "cut out" for a second or two and then resumed operation.  This happened several times during the evening and by the next day I counted 10 times when it would stop for a second or two and then start back up. We alerted the dealer so the stove tech would be prepared when he arrived to deal with additional issues.

Stove tech pulls in late this afternoon and replaces board.  Asks if we want to light a fire before he leaves... Duh!  I pointed out the stove still does not operate in test mode as the manual clearly states it should...We proceed to light fire using the instruction manual and "door shut method"  fire promptly goes out.  I then pick up my 2.5 empty bottles of gelled alcohol and ask him if he wants to show me how it is done or if he would like me to start the stove.  He tells me I really should get a bigger torch to heat up the pellets more...I respond I don't think I should have to smoke up my house to get the damned stove lit. He agrees. 

I then proceeded to use the "door open" method I learned from you fine folks on this forum.---works like a charm.  Nice cheery fire going, he admits there is something amiss with the stove and tries to tell us it is because nobody ever buys this model and Harman puts no effort in to the model...Yeah, yeah, yeah... We stand around watching the stove and he says he will talk to dealer about what our next step is in the process and he leaves...It was then I realized the stove wasn't augering any pellets.  As soon as the pellets in the fire pot are depleted the stove goes out.  

Praying it is just an anomaly, I cross myself and relight the stove.  Now, it just simply doesn't auger pellets to feed the fire.  It will auger pellets and go in to test mode *IF* and only if you turn it to full turbo.  Otherwise it will occasionally run the test mode on another set but not consistently.

So, where do I go from here?  I would appreciate advice on what is fair for both myself and the dealer.  I think that I have been patent in dealing with a stove that has a problem for 30 days and that problem hasn't been resolved.  I believe the dealer should bring me a replacement stove and hook it up at his expense.  If, as the dealer says the Harman p-38 is an unsupported model, I am willing to pay the difference to get another model that is better supported but I do not feel I should be required to expend any further money beyond the cost difference of the stove I wanted (A working p38) and whatever model I would need to replace it with.  Does that seem like a fair position for me to take?

Elise
3 tons a pellets and no stove
or this may have turned out to be 
not such a great idea!


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## MCPO (Nov 13, 2010)

Stormy said:
			
		

> UPDATE....Or yes, it does get worse.
> 
> First, allow me just a moment of whining...We are just working folks and we have invested heart and soul and all our winter heating resources into a pellet stove.  I am just brokenhearted and now I am cold because now my stove does not work at all.
> 
> ...



Elise , 
Not to be repetative but forget the test procedure for now. Try this:
  When starting the stove the first step to take is to turn the feed rate dial from off to the #1 setting. At this point you should hear the combustion motor running.  Verify this is happening. If so then procede to the next step.
  Open the door and add a cup of pellets soaked in your firestarter , (gel?)  light , and allow to burn for a short while  , maybe 30 -60 secs with door partly open . Then close the door. The flame should immediately change from a wild flame to tall and straight up like a blow torch since the combustion fan is now forcing all the air through the burn pot.  Verify that this happens.  Assuming  all is fine up to this point the ESP should heat up to temp (165*) and the blower fan will start and the pellet motor will run approx 7 secs every minute. At this point you can adjust the feed rate as you please. 


Here`s what I`d do if my P-38 exibited your problem.
 Looking at the wiring diagram in my manual , it seems the (pellet) feeder motor is controlled by the ESP with a pressure switch in line so I`d have to think you might have a bad ESP. However , I`d first want to determine if the pressure switch itself is faulty . It can be easily and quickly checked with a simple meter or by temporarily by-passing it.
 Actually the ESP is the brains of the whole stove operation.
 Getting this stove to run should present no big problem . Most anyone who is reasonably handy (like yourself) should be able to change out a bad ESP or pressure switch. It`s a rather bare bones simplistic stove to work on. Unfortunately you just hadn`t received much support/help from your dealer and tech. 
 Don`t give up cause once you get the problem solved and get this stove up and running it will satisfy you as much as any other  brand stove would. To give up on it would be akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water.


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## newf lover (Nov 13, 2010)

Is there a Better Business Bureau out where you are? I agree with what you said, the dealer should give you a replacement stove and hook it up at their expense. If it's a more expensive model I would pay the difference, making sure they spell out exactly what the difference is and call around to make sure they're being truthful. Right now, you have a stove that hasn't worked and it's not your fault. If they do not agree to this, i would start by filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau or whatever consumer protection agency you have out there. I would dispute the charges on the credit card if possible, or I would take them to small claims court. You are not being unreasonable, they are. Are you supposed to be satisfied with a non-working stove? That's ridiculous. It doesn't matter if it's Harman's fault, dealer's fault, or installer's fault. It's not your fault, and you shouldn't have to suffer the consequences for whatever is going on. I think it's time to be a b%$^.


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## MCPO (Nov 13, 2010)

OK, The Better Business  Bureau, etc route is one recourse to initiate right now but it probably won`t be quickly resoved that way either and  since it`s been only about two weeks since the install , maybe give it another week or so before launching the last resort. It could make relations with your dealer even worse.
 And it could very well be something simple like a bad ESP.


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## Lousyweather (Nov 13, 2010)

Im frankly not very impressed with the dealer. The P38 has been out there for quite some time, its the Harman entry level unit, and as such does not have all the bells and whistles the rest of the line has. BUT, they USUALLY work fine, when all components and the install is good, as well as being clean. We know your unit is clean, but the other two, we dont know. Its up to your dealer to ensure all parts work as advertised....they clearly arent. Whether it be a ESP, circuit board, whatever, clearly an issue here. The BBB really doesnt do much in resolving issues, as the dealer isnt ignoring you......I think they just lack the experience to fix them. Maybe a chargeback on the credit card will get their attention? I dont know of many P38's we have sold that require a plethora of "tricks" to light them, such as the leave the door open idea......

FWIW, the p43 is a better choice, self-regulating and autoigniting for $2-300 more.


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## dave1959 (Nov 13, 2010)

Please tell me you all are kidding... Handsfull of pellets, starter gel, alchol...just to get it started...is that nornal ??
I have a 2 year old Lopi Leyden ( my first ) and all I do is turn it on and push the start button, 15 min later I have heat...
I have read on hear about the reputation and quality of Harmon but that sounds like and alfull lot of work just to get it started.
If I had one and had to that I'd go back to wood.


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## jtakeman (Nov 13, 2010)

dave1959 said:
			
		

> Please tell me you all are kidding... Handsfull of pellets, starter gel, alchol...just to get it started...is that nornal ??
> I have a 2 year old Lopi Leyden ( my first ) and all I do is turn it on and push the start button, 15 min later I have heat...
> I have read on hear about the reputation and quality of Harmon but that sounds like and alfull lot of work just to get it started.
> If I had one and had to that I'd go back to wood.



Yes, Its normal for a P38 as its a manually lit stove. Well not as much trouble as stormy is having. Her stove has an issue!


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## Delta-T (Nov 13, 2010)

just for "funnsies", if you have one, use a multi-meter on your outlet to make sure you have proper volts, that can make "squirrely" things happen on any stove. usually to get into test mode you do have to turn the knob all the way to turbo.


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## stormy873 (Nov 17, 2010)

Update to previous Update-or the saga continues :

Oh pellet stove wizards, I have more and more issues piling one on top of the other now.  Although I don't know if it helps in diagnostics I did put my "Kilowatt" meter on the stove and the volts read within a normal range as per my stove manual...I am at a loss as the issues are becoming more and more pervasive and the dealer is not returning phone calls or emails as of today.  I do not want to dispute charges on my credit card but I am getting desperate to get someone's attention.  Here's the latest:

The dealer, in consultation with Harman decided that we must have a bad board and a board was ordered for the stove. We waited for more than a week for the board to arrive. In the time between when the board was ordered but before it arrived the stove developed additional operational problems. Now, the blower fan would come off and off at irregular intervals (starting, stopping and starting again several times in rapid succession.) 

The replacement board was installed last Friday November 12. FULLY ONE MONTH after the stove was installed. We attempted to start the stove using the Harman instructions and the tech watched it go out in front of him. I then lit the stove use the leave the door cracked method and when the tech left there was a cheery fire burning. Soon the fire faded and went out. As an unfortunate side note, a wire had jiggled loose and the auger no longer was functional so we spent yet another weekend without a stove. Now, I want to be clear that I do not want to vilify the installer (Chris) over this. It was unfortunate that the wire was not seated properly and failed to allow the stove to function. However it was also 54 degrees inside my house and I am getting COLD.

The installer returned on Monday and attached the wire that allowed the stove to operate and had my husband light a fire in it. (Using the leave the door open method) When the stove got going Chris took note of the fact the blower went on and off and said “that isn’t right.” He asked my husband to keep tabs on the stove.
We documented several hours worth of faulty blower operation. The stove fan was going off and on as many as 15-30 times an hour with short pauses in operation before resuming blowing, only to pause, resume operation and pause again. Over and over and over again. Sometimes the stove will operate normally with the fan going on at reasonable intervals for up to two hours and then it will start in with the “pause, start, pause start” for anywhere from 15 minutes to almost an hour of erratic operation.

I lit the stove this morning November 16, 2010 . About 15 minutes after lighting the blower came on for the first time and then started in on the cycle off and on again and on again with pauses in between for approximately ½ hour of very erratic behavior. After that time it operated normally for over an hour.
Because we are frankly scared for our safety my husband opted to turn the stove off at that time. He turned it to the off position, waited 40 minutes, insured the fire was out and the stove cool and the combustion fan had turned off. With no fire and the stove in the OFF position the combustion fan turned itself back on then off and then on AGAIN. This is with a cold stove with no fuel in it. He finally physically UNPLUGGED the unit from the wall. 

At this point my issue with the stove starting* is small potatoes compared to the issues that make me think of the pellet stove equivalent of Cujo or Christine the killer car.   I don't care if I have to leave the door open to get it started.  I just need it to operate.*

Any thoughts on where I go from here. I alerted the dealer via phone and email and haven't heard a peep out of them and expected at least a call back to acknowledge they would need to set up another visit-nada. 

The installer did tell us that he talked to them (sorta indicated them was Harman) about us needed another stove and they said NO way-since I wasn't privy to the conversation I don;t know if the "them" was in fact Harman or if it was the dealer.

Elise
Harman paperweight in living room
3 tons of pellets in barn
57 degrees in house.


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## cncpro (Nov 17, 2010)

How did you come by such a great deal of patience ?  I'd be disputing the charge and returning the stove immediately.  They have had enough time to make it right.

Your description of the blower coming on and off makes me wonder if the power to the pellet stove is flickering due to a loose wiring connection or a fault in the fuse or circuit panel ?  The reason I ask this is because my stove always powers up the fans immediately upon supplying power.  I believe this is done to minimize smoke entering the house during a momentary power outage...  So anyway, if your power is flickering on and off that could possibly explain the unusual blower activity.


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## Lousyweather (Nov 17, 2010)

another crazy question....did anyone ever check the outlet with one of those devices which checks polarity, hot neutrals, etc? This erratic stuff seems weird....not saying it ISNT the stove, but boy, wouldnt it be embarrassing if it werent tohe stove at all, rather a power supply problem? or a house wiring issue?


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## stormy873 (Nov 17, 2010)

I guess  will go buy a meter to test the circuit today. (I will probably have to ask for instruction.)  I will still be livid *even* if this is the case (and I have no idea if it could be an issue)  We paid for a professional installation, had a pre-install visit to determine if our stove could be installed in the location it needed to be placed AND in the Harman installation manual it says the FIRST thing that should be checked before proceeding with an installation is correct electrical polarity.  As a consumer, it should not be my job to second guess the installer and remind him that he needed to check polarity at either of two the points in the process where he had the opportunity-It is the reason I paid for a professional installation.  So, no I won't be embarrassed if it is a problem on my end, I would be even more disappointed in the dealer for NOT determining and issue like this BEFORE the installation process began.  I have long ago learned that I can not  be an expert on everything in the world-that is why I paid to have a professional installation done.  If this is an issue with pellet stoves, I would think that someone, somewhere in the two installation calls and the three service calls should have thought to address prior to this. I guess sometimes I give people credit for common sense they may not possess. 

Elise


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## cncpro (Nov 17, 2010)

You won't need instructions.  It looks like a plug but no wire sticking out.  Instead there are indicator lights...

You just plug it into the outlet and verify that the "correct" light sequence is lit up.

This test is a great idea but won't tell you if there is a loose or flickering connection as I proposed above.

If this test shows "correct" you may want to have a qualified electrician make a quick inspection of this particular circuit from the panel all the way to the outlet.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Nov 17, 2010)

http://www.amazon.com/Electrical-Receptacle-Outlet-Ground-Tester/dp/B0012DHVQ0


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## gfreek (Nov 17, 2010)

Call Harman........


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## MCPO (Nov 17, 2010)

Stormy said:
			
		

> I guess  will go buy a meter to test the circuit today. (I will probably have to ask for instruction.)  I will still be livid *even* if this is the case (and I have no idea if it could be an issue)  We paid for a professional installation, had a pre-install visit to determine if our stove could be installed in the location it needed to be placed AND in the Harman installation manual it says the FIRST thing that should be checked before proceeding with an installation is correct electrical polarity.  As a consumer, it should not be my job to second guess the installer and remind him that he needed to check polarity at either of two the points in the process where he had the opportunity-It is the reason I paid for a professional installation.  So, no I won't be embarrassed if it is a problem on my end, I would be even more disappointed in the dealer for NOT determining and issue like this BEFORE the installation process began.  I have long ago learned that I can not  be an expert on everything in the world-that is why I paid to have a professional installation done.  If this is an issue with pellet stoves, I would think that someone, somewhere in the two installation calls and the three service calls should have thought to address prior to this. I guess sometimes I give people credit for common sense they may not possess.
> 
> Elise


 In all fairness I don`t feel the service tech or the dealer should be held fully responsible for the possibility of a faulty outlet/circuit in a purchasers home. Of course all service techs should possess some basic electrical knowledge but it`s not absurd or is it unusual to expect a simple 120 v outlet in a users home to work correctly.
   Regardless of what appliance is purchased and consequently plugged in to an existing outlet, the ownership or responsibility of that outlet does not change hands .
   OK, I`m a retired electrician myself and my opinion on this might seem a bit slanted but in my 50 yr career I`ve seen most folks more interested in what shows in their home (like new kitchens and baths)  vs the electrical wiring or the water pipes.  
 All that said, I do agree that long before this point in time someone should have thought to check the outlet, it`s voltage , and the circuit integrity, all the way back to the street power. 
 The two things I`d be looking for at this point is to check the power and maybe replace the ESP.


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## Lousyweather (Nov 17, 2010)

Stormy said:
			
		

> I guess  will go buy a meter to test the circuit today. (I will probably have to ask for instruction.)  I will still be livid *even* if this is the case (and I have no idea if it could be an issue)  We paid for a professional installation, had a pre-install visit to determine if our stove could be installed in the location it needed to be placed AND in the Harman installation manual it says the FIRST thing that should be checked before proceeding with an installation is correct electrical polarity.  As a consumer, it should not be my job to second guess the installer and remind him that he needed to check polarity at either of two the points in the process where he had the opportunity-It is the reason I paid for a professional installation.  So, no I won't be embarrassed if it is a problem on my end, I would be even more disappointed in the dealer for NOT determining and issue like this BEFORE the installation process began.  I have long ago learned that I can not  be an expert on everything in the world-that is why I paid to have a professional installation done.  If this is an issue with pellet stoves, I would think that someone, somewhere in the two installation calls and the three service calls should have thought to address prior to this. I guess sometimes I give people credit for common sense they may not possess.
> 
> Elise



Elise:

I dont have your patience. I also agree that the tech should have checked the power supply, but frankly, thats it.....plug the little dongle into the wall, if it lights up green, its all good, but, in the fairly rare (but not unheard of) situation where it ISNT green, thats where we stop......tell the homeowner that they have to have the outlet fixed PRIOR to any work being done, and call us when it is done......we will fit you into the schedule after that point. The outlet isnt the installer's responsibility, but possibly checking to make sure its Kosher is his responsibility. 

That said, I dont KNOW thats the issue! I just came up with it because of all the erratic stuff going on with your unit. Usually, with a p38, it gets installed, works out of the box, and you never hear back until its time for a new flame guide, or they are buying next batch of pellets.....I say usually......its certainly possible youve got a bad part or two as well, although thats rare. FWIW, even though it wont help, Ive never met a Harman that couldnt be fixed.

I


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## stormy873 (Nov 17, 2010)

Polarity checked correct with my brand new little Gimzo....Have never had problem with circuits in past.  This was the circuit that I used for  sensitive computing equipment.  Router, modem, dual monitors, never had any problems with any issues regarding that so I am not inclined to call in an electrician.  My "Kilowatt" meter shows steady voltage to the outlet.  I think it is the stove.

Elise

And thanks to whoever said this stove could be fixed....I want ot love my Harman.

~ED~


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## Lousyweather (Nov 18, 2010)

the thing is, Elise, that there just isnt that much going on inside the P38........the power goes to the circuit board, and is distributed from there to the components, with additional direction from the ESP. If all the motors have been tested independantly (powered up one at a time, right to line voltage and not through the wiring harness), and they all worked, there just isnt much more than the ESP probe, circuit board, and vac switch.......heck, were I the repairman, given the issues you've had, I would replace all 3! That might take all of about 10 minutes MAX. Hope it all works out!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Nov 18, 2010)

The tech should check the wiring in the stove to make certain that a polarity reversal isn't occurring because someone got the white and black wires etc.. connected incorrectly inside the stove, also all connections should be verified as tight and that all wires are not rubbing against any moving or vibrating metal parts,  also they should verify all motors are actually grounded to the stove's frame.


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## curtthegreat (Nov 18, 2010)

Stormy, any updates on your stove? Good news I hope.


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## mjbrown (Nov 18, 2010)

I dont understand why the "them" wouldn't replace the stove....cna't the dealer return the stove to the manufacturer for replacement on his end? I mean, after all, the dealer doesn't have a competent Harman repairman/tech...maybe he should send his tech for the proper training. i too have a P38. i bought it used from a harman dealer, and have had excellent luck. after 3 years of burning, i just had to tear the stove down and repair the auger tube , as i had the dreaded 5 hole burn pot,and the tube wore thru. at almost $200 for the feed assembly, i thought i would try repairing it first, and now in A1 shape again. i feel bad for stormy with her issues, and i hope you get it fixed soon. i dont know much about electrical, so i dont dare guess.

mike


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## gfreek (Nov 18, 2010)

This has been going on for almost a month.  I would not have the patience. Saving up the money, comparing quality, & this happens, dealing with an incompetent dealer.  Start replacing parts or replace it. I assume it was paid with cash.  I know some are against credit cards however if credit card was used, some have purchase protection, satisfaction guarantee,extended warranty, etc.


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## stormy873 (Nov 19, 2010)

UPDATE to the Update to the Update

I have been calling and e-mailing the dealer daily with no response from him since last Monday.  Not a message, not an acknowledgment of the e-mail.  Nothing.  I finally found that Harman had a Facebook page touting their stoves so I posted a comment that I wished my new stove worked <G> It wasn't a trash Harman message-It was a simple, I sure wish my stove worked.

Received a message asking me what the problem was and so I told them-they now have the same information that all of the forum members have.  

By this afternoon, I was getting pretty upset with the dealer so I called and the manager was out.  I told the guy who answered the phone that I was going to KEEP calling until the manager returned my call and that I needed this stove replaced or repaired to MY satisfaction.  FINALLY, get a call back and he tells me he is having the district Harman rep come out to look at my stove-maybe before Thanksgiving.  I ask him if this guy is going to fix it and there was pretty much dead air space...So, I imagine this is a guy in a suit and his appearance is probably based on my contact with Harman rather than anything the dealer has instigated.

I have snow on the ground and it is cold so I have been trying to run the stove.  I have determined that the blower "brain farts" happen with greater regularity when I turn the stove down.  If I run it at 3 or higher with the fan dial past mid-way I have less problem.  Trying to shut either the feed or fan rate down any lower and I get problems with the fan coming off and on over and over with the pause in between.

I finally turned the stove off when it got to near 80 degrees in the house and it is having a fit. The fan cycling off and on-even tho there are only a few tiny embers left and the stove is pretty much cooled down.  I am going to let it run to see how long it does this...Update

By the way, I did pay for the stove with a credit card and I paid for it in two payments (Deposit and on delivery).  I have checked with my credit card company and they told me I have 60 days from the delivery date in order to dispute the charges.  I will dispute the week after Thanksgiving if this isn't resolved by then.

As a complete aside, since I am getting fed up with Harman does anyone know of other stoves that I could look at that will meet my siting requirements?  I need a stove that can be placed within 24 inches of an operable window with outside air installed.  The smaller, the better has we have a small home. And, despite my experience with lighting issues I still prefer a low tech stove.  The less bells and whistles the better.  The only brands I know of locally that have stoves that can be installed that close to an operable window are a St. Croix (never even seen one) or a Lopi.  I would love some other leads on other models that might work for me.  

Thanks for all your support in this.  I feel like I should send you all cards for the holidays!
Elise


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## SmokeyTheBear (Nov 19, 2010)

Actually it isn't the stove and the window etc... that is the issue, it is the vent termination and the operable window etc ... that is the issue.


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## stormy873 (Nov 19, 2010)

Yes, you are correct-I wasn't clear in my explanation.  I need to look at models that can have the capability of a vent termination withing 24 inches of an operable window, if outside air is installed.  That was the big draw of Harman in the first place.  I didn't want to replace the big picture window in my living room that opened in the wrong direction! I didn't like my husbands idea that involved screwing it shut either. 

Elise


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## richg (Nov 19, 2010)

Enough is enough. I am a big fan of Harman stoves but this has gone too far. My advice: either the Harman tech fixes it right then and there, or he takes the stove with him. Shell out a few more bucks and get a self-lighting P43 or P61A. They should give you the mother of all discounts on a new stove.


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## rickwa (Nov 19, 2010)

the st croix lancaster is a simple little reliable stove. I heat 1600sq ft with it.


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## richkorn (Nov 19, 2010)

Stormy said:
			
		

> I will dispute the week after Thanksgiving if this isn't resolved by then.



Good for you!, enough of this crap. Harman needs to fix it or replace it. If not - Get charge reversed and drop it at dealers door step.


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## curtthegreat (Nov 19, 2010)

Just a thought. Why don't you post your dealer's e-mail address on here ,and all of us on this forum could send him our thoughts about this issue.


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## Countryboymo (Nov 20, 2010)

I would dispute it now and work towards getting the p48? auto ignition model and only paying the difference if that so you might be able to sit in front of it Thanksgiving.  I think I would try to get a discount on the other model for compensation for it being such a pain in the EEEEE-AWWWW.


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## MCPO (Nov 20, 2010)

Since the control board has already been replaced  I`d put my money on it being a bad ESP. 
 Unfortunately you must have one on hand to swap out . Ask the dealer to change it. 
 As I see it , at this point you have to decide whether you want to wait for the dealer to solve the problem,  or hope he replaces the stove (rather doubtful) , or initiate credit card proceedings . Anyone of these will take time and meanwhile you are not getting pellet stove heat. Any change in model or brand is likely to cost you more money.
 Why the ESP hasn`t been changed yet is a mystery to me.


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## stormy873 (Nov 20, 2010)

I am documenting the malfunction of the stove via video because I doubt somebody is going to stand around waiting for it to misbehave.  I apologize for the quality.  I will be posting more later but us the first one documenting the erratic blower operation.  (Hard to do a good video at 6 AM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkQMxkcA3MM


Elise


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## jtakeman (Nov 20, 2010)

The way the voltage on the kill-o-watt is bouncing around should be a really really good clue. 

Is the circuit the stove is on dedicated to just the stove?


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## stormy873 (Nov 20, 2010)

My computer is on the same circuit, pulling less than 200 watts and it was "asleep."  I have duplicated the same behavior with the computer off and nothing else on the circuit.

Elise


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## barbcole (Nov 20, 2010)

Dispute the charge now, before you lose that option. The dispute can stay in pending status why they are "working it out" - instead of hitting the maximum time waiting for them and not being able to dispute. At this point you are not being hasty in disputing. They have had ample time to come to a resolution.

The St Croix Hastings can be within 9" of a window with outside air installed. I originally thought 18", but the manual came with an addendum point out according to such and such special categories, it is now 9" with outside air.

Auto ignite too.

I've only had it a few days so far, but it's awesome. I wish you were enjoying your new purchase as much as I am mine.


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## gfreek (Nov 20, 2010)

Is the Kill-A Watt displaying different readings,amps,watts, hertz,kwh, not just voltage? Or is the  voltage erratic??.  I might have missed this, but for the heck of it ,did you try a different outlet on a different circuit??  Weird.....


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## Bigjim13 (Nov 20, 2010)

barbcole said:
			
		

> Dispute the charge now, before you lose that option. The dispute can stay in pending status why they are "working it out" - instead of hitting the maximum time waiting for them and not being able to dispute. At this point you are not being hasty in disputing. They have had ample time to come to a resolution.
> 
> The St Croix Hastings can be within 9" of a window with outside air installed. I originally thought 18", but the manual came with an addendum point out according to such and such special categories, it is now 9" with outside air.
> 
> ...



Yeah, stop screwing around with this dealer.  Every dealer I know worth a damn would have had this fixed no more than 2 weeks after the install, and the only reason it would have taken that long would be because of waiting for either 1)new parts 2) new stove or 3) waiting for my schedule to match theirs to get it corrected.  

FWIW, there have been other posts about getting a different model Harman.  I have the P61A and love it.  What it comes down to though is getting something in your price range that you are comfortable with.


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## stormy873 (Nov 20, 2010)

The Kilowatt meter is displaying the watts the stove is drawing. I should have been more clear about that. 

I am the queen of taking meter readings on everything because there can be times when we have to use a generator and I keep an updated chart of the maximum watts required by all necessary items so I make sure to only plug in X number watts at a time-making sure to account for starting watts and running watts. 

Elise


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## jtakeman (Nov 20, 2010)

Ah, I though is was voltage readings. Explains why when everything was running proper the number was higher. If the volts were dropping it might explain some issues. 

So the voltage stays pretty constent then?


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## stormy873 (Nov 20, 2010)

Volts stay at 117.4-to 117.5.


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## gfreek (Nov 20, 2010)

Ok Then.   Thanks for the clarification .  Hope someone looks at it next week. Agree with barbcole maybe a call to the CC company to start the dispute before you lose that option. Enough....


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## Countryboymo (Nov 20, 2010)

I would contact Harman and print off or email them a link to this thread.  I would at least let them know where to find it and make them fully aware of the number of reads and posts.  I would also tell them you wish to end this saga with a very happy ending to finish it off.  


I still say dispute the charges first so you can open the dealers eyes that your not messing around with it any longer.


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## stormy873 (Nov 23, 2010)

I AM DONE...No I mean I am really done.

For 42 days I have put up with a non-working pellet stove and tried to be understanding.  I am done.  We were supposed to have the Harman regional rep come to our house this Wednesday to see the stove in question.  I got an e-mail today from the dealer that said he wouldn't be able to make it.  He would be out next Monday. Wouldn't be able to make it?  I have been freezing my ass off for 42 days and he can't find the time to come to my house and see the stove-which frankly he shouldn't have needed to do that in the first place.  It should have been more than enough that I have had an ongoing problem....But no, he can't make it out.  And so I am supposed to sit here and freeze.

It is supposed to get down to 20 degrees tonight.  I have over a foot of snow on the ground and it is near blizzard conditions.  Do you suppose Harman is going to accept liability for broken pipes if I can't keep my house warm. We made the choice between getting a pellet stove and refurbishing our furnace.  This is supposed to be my go to heat source.  I wonder if they  are they going to call my Thanksgiving guests to inform them of the need to bring their coats.  As soon as my satellite connection improves enough and the blizzard dies down, I will file the online portion of the dispute to my credit card charges.

I honestly can not believe the poor customer service of this company.  I am a customer service manager and we would NEVER treat a customer like we have been treated.  

So-sadly, I must report I have finally reached the end of my rope.  

Elise


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## ChandlerR (Nov 23, 2010)

Elise, I have followed this thread with much interest. I am so sorry you've had this experience.  This is a study in extremes. Harmon a high end stove, revered by many has very poor customer service...in contrast, Englander, a lower level stove has the best customer service (from the factory no less) that I have ever seen.  A lesson is in here somewhere 

I sincerely hope this is resolved soon for your sake, and sanity!

Chan


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## stormy873 (Nov 23, 2010)

What I hope is one last set of questions and comments from me.  

I swear this stove about has me undone.  NEVER, ever in my life have I experienced a company so unwilling to accept any accountability for the issues I have had with this stove.  It seems, everything is my fault.

In absolute desperation, I posted a picture of my snow drenched yard and a plea to Harman to FIX my stove on their FACE BOOK page.  Pretty soon, I got an email from them asking for my phone number and several hours later a call from their corporate head quarters.  The gentleman's name escapes me because the call didn't go well. My faith is completely shaken.  He was calling to inform me that someone would be out "next week" to look at the stove and that they couldn't get out any sooner.  This is day 40-something in trying to get this stove to operate and they have no sense of urgency.  

I won't even  discuss the fact that they made no effort to even inquire when might be a convenient time for them to come to my house.  They just assumed I guess that I would be waiting with baited breath for their arrival.  More likely, it will be frosty breath and a bad attitude.  

My conversation.....went like this(I am paraphasing)
ME: MY stove is broken and it hasn't function correctly since it was installed over a month ago.  I have been very patient.
HIM: You stove works, we saw it on the Youtube video...
ME: No, my stove doesn't work.  
Him: Your stove works, you just have operational errors as you do not set the feed rate high enough on the stove.  
Me: No, we have tried many combination's of feed/fan settings.  That was shot with the both dials set to mid-dial position)
Him: You don't have the feed rate set high enough
Me: Do you understand my stove doesn't work.  Do you understand we have been dealing with this since mid-October?
HIM: There's nothing we can do about it sooner than next Monday
ME: Do you understand I am cold and I need heat.
Him: You  stove works.
Me: No it doesn't, I then elaborate on the myriad of issues that have come up on the forum-How the tech stood there and told us it wasn't operating correctly, yada,yada.
Him: Well there is nothing we can do until next week and....your stove works.
Me: Please understand me, MY stove does not work.  It now does not feed pellets at all unless you turn it off, wait five seconds and turn it on to turbo.  As long as I do that every 2 minutes or so the fire will burn.  No matter how big a fire or how hot I get the stove, the auger does not turn.
HIM: Well do you have the DDM reading for the stove?
ME: (THINKING TO SELF -Why should I have the DDM readings?) No, none were taken and by the way the stove was never test fired when it was installed.
ME: Now, if the stove is turned to the "Off" position (again no matter how hot the fire) the combustion fan immediately stops working and the box fills with smoke... Guess it is a good thing that the firebox is pretty tight, huh?
HIM: Dead Silence
ME: (Thinking to self-that stumped him)
HIM: What do you want us to do about this?
ME: DUH!
ME: I want this stove replaced with a unit that works and works correctly.  I further told him that we preferred the p-38 model but would purchase an upgrade to that unit if it is one that is better understood and supported by our servicing dealer.  I told him I am concerned about not only having this stove operate but having long term serviceability and that I need to know that someone in our area has a working knowledge of this stove and can do diagnostics and repair to keep it functioning correctly for the long run. 

I am speechless. Sadly I think they are going to try and tell me it is all my fault and that my stove operates perfectly.  I am waiting to see them put it through its paces.

Elise


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## ChandlerR (Nov 24, 2010)

I can't wait to see what they say when they see it (not) run!


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## gfreek (Nov 24, 2010)

Unbelievable!!  You ARE  disputing the charge correct??  http://www.ripoffreport.com/   What stinks is what is going on NOW with no heat..  I know Harmans are highly rated but what good are they with no dealer support. What will happen after they witness the happenings??  Oh by the way we brought along replacement parts or better yet another stove ??    Probably not..     PS- beautiful pic on facebook, love the caption..


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## rickwa (Nov 24, 2010)

by looking at video it is definetly a control issue.  Controls consist of circuit board and esp probe. I keep both on the truck!  I would have changed both after checking that dip switch settings were correct


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## smwilliamson (Nov 24, 2010)

If you were anywhere near me I'd fix this thing in a heart beat. What kills me here is that it is a brand new stove, and a good one at that. Odd. I cannot go through this entire thread again right now but wasn't the original problem that it wouldn't light? Now it lights but does all of this weirdness? Go figure. You would think that someone from the HHT marketing dept. would be a member here and monitor their brands.

I once zapped out a control board on an owners stove. It was my fault, so I thought. The new board was $429.00 and after I installed it there was nothing but problems. I swore up and down that there was NOTHING wrong with the stove or the new control board. Every time I came back to monitor the stove it seemed to behave. Couldn't figure it out. In the end, as a last ditch effort I pulled every single component out of the stove and as I was doing it I noticed that the molex connector that went into the control board was cracked up the middle. It took me about 50 hrs of agonizing troubleshooting to figure it out. Lennox wouldn't warranty the part because they said I wasn't "authorized" to work on their equipment and that I must have damaged it. I installed a new wiring harness and the OLD BOARD and guess what? It worked beautifully.

Hang in there. I hope that they find the problem.


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## Jim H. (Nov 24, 2010)

What is there facebook page?  maybe we can also put in a couple hundred fix her stoves!   NOW!     This is unacceptable.


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## mkling (Nov 24, 2010)

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Harman-Stoves/139872766040721?v=wall


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## Jim H. (Nov 24, 2010)

I just put my 2 cents on the page see http://www.facebook.com/pages/Harman-Stoves/139872766040721?v=wall

Hope this helps!

 Jim


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## Swaybar (Nov 24, 2010)

I posted a message to Harman.  Good Luck.  A lot depends on the Dealer, we have Rockies here in Maine, no problem he can't (or won't) fix.-


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## stormy873 (Nov 25, 2010)

OK- You may cease and desist!  I got a call from the dealer and Harman is pretty much insisting I trade this stove out for a P-43 which the dealer told me was much easier for them to do diagnostics on and work on and it is the same stove the installer has in his own home.  I feel for the dealer (although not enough to have eaten the purchase price) as they do not sell many of this model stove and it is sort of an odd ball in the Harman line up for our region.  It is costing me the price difference but I am not one who expects to receive something for free.  I have no complaints about the cost difference as long as the stove performs up to the standards that I have long seen attributed to the Harman product line.  

Hopefully, next week (barring more snow) you will see me posting an updated picture of my new "Harmy ,Jr." operating perfectly in the corner of my living room.  

Thanks again for all your help and thanks to Harman and my dealer if they follow through as they have indicated they will.  I will happily pay for the brand of stove I have coveted so long.

Hope you all have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Elise in Oregon


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## ChandlerR (Nov 25, 2010)

That is awesome, Elise!  I just read the Facebook page.  I sincerely hope this is resolved once and for all.  Happy Thanksgiving!

Chan


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## MCPO (Nov 25, 2010)

Stormy said:
			
		

> OK- You may cease and desist!  I got a call from the dealer and Harman is pretty much insisting I trade this stove out for a P-43 which the dealer told me was much easier for them to do diagnostics on and work on and it is the same stove the installer has in his own home.  I feel for the dealer (although not enough to have eaten the purchase price) as they do not sell many of this model stove and it is sort of an odd ball in the Harman line up for our region.  It is costing me the price difference but I am not one who expects to receive something for free.  I have no complaints about the cost difference as long as the stove performs up to the standards that I have long seen attributed to the Harman product line.
> 
> Hopefully, next week (barring more snow) you will see me posting an updated picture of my new "Harmy ,Jr." operating perfectly in the corner of my living room.
> 
> ...


 
This response from Harman is absoulutley rediculous! And dumb too.
   For the lack of sending a knowledgeable / qualified tech to look at this stove they suggest replacing it with another model? And from the same dumbell who installed it in the first place? 
 . Well , I suppose the deal does look a lot better vs what you`ve been put through by the dealer , and the P-43 should prove to be an awesome unit but I`d still  be pi$$ed for having to part with more money.  
  This wasn`t your fault and the Harman folks are being downright irresponsible not to mention outright CHEAPSKATES about it too. I can`t help but feel their response was soley from internet / forum pressure The new stove and re-install should not have cost you a dime! They ought to drop that dealer too just for being product stupid.
  My P-38 is going on 7 yrs old and has been trouble free (so far) but I`d never buy a new Harman because of their policy of refusing to communicate with customers. Your saga is another reason.


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## gfreek (Nov 25, 2010)

Hope for the best for you, the stress of this can be overwhelming, and that you get completely taken care. They should upgrade you, NO charge, with a big Red Ribbon around it.  However, to upgrade to the P43, because its easier to service seems far fetched & to charge you is the killer.   Good,the installer has the same stove, he can take parts off of that one if  needed.. Whatever the outcome, as long as YOU are satisfied That's what matters.....


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## tinkabranc (Nov 25, 2010)

While I don't really agree with "trading up" and still having to pay the difference, I am hoping 
this finally gets resolved for you. 

Knowing you were having so many issues from the start, IMO the dealer should have
swapped out that stove for another and be done with it.  

Keep us posted!


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## Dougsey (Nov 25, 2010)

I think you are going to enjoy some of the more advanced features of the P43.


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## slls (Nov 25, 2010)

Coveted Harman, uh, ok.


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## Countryboymo (Nov 25, 2010)

Just getting that stove out would be worth the cost of the stove and I can see why you don't care at this point other than you want something that works correctly.   The stove dealer or Harman should refund SOMETHING or GIVE you something in return for your troubles.  Either a free ton or two of GOOD pellets, a refund of your initial installation cost or Harman should give you something for your troubles.  It should not have went this far.  I know the main issue will be resolved which is great but I hoped for you to get something else for your troubles.  I would at least get a different dealer if there is one after this whole thing is over.


Congrats and let us know how the new one is.


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## Wi Thundercat (Nov 25, 2010)

Glad to hear you are finally getting this issue resolved. Lets just hope they come though as they said they would! Keep us posted. :exclaim:


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## m159267 (Nov 26, 2010)

Dear Harman
I have used your product - a P38, for several years and it has worked beautifully. Very dependable with absolutely no issues. But this thread has exposed an issue you (Harman & your dealers) really should be concerned with. You must realize the power of the internet and how fast a products poor customer service can be exposed. I am not going to reiterate the nightmare Stormy has incurred with one of your products - it is well documented in this thread. Telling her to pay the difference between her lemon P38 and a P43 after what she has been through is just wrong. You should belly up to the bar, say "we screwed up", and provide this incredibly patient Harman customer an upgrade, installed properly, without more burden on her part.
Fact is the few dollars you will gain by making her pay to upgrade to a P43 has already cost you $$. I WAS going to purchase a Harman Accentra to replace my upstairs fireplace. Sorry - I don't purchase products from folks who can not back up their product. I wish the best for Stormy -- are you listening Harman?


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## mjbrown (Nov 26, 2010)

m159267 said:
			
		

> Dear Harman
> I have used your product - a P38, for several years and it has worked beautifully. Very dependable with absolutely no issues. But this thread has exposed an issue you (Harman & your dealers) really should be concerned with. You must realize the power of the internet and how fast a products poor customer service can be exposed. I am not going to reiterate the nightmare Stormy has incurred with one of your products - it is well documented in this thread. Telling her to pay the difference between her lemon P38 and a P43 after what she has been through is just wrong. You should belly up to the bar, say "we screwed up", and provide this incredibly patient Harman customer an upgrade, installed properly, without more burden on her part.
> Fact is the few dollars you will gain by making her pay to upgrade to a P43 has already cost you $$. I WAS going to purchase a Harman Accentra to replace my upstairs fireplace. Sorry - I don't purchase products from folks who can not back up their product. I wish the best for Stormy -- are you listening Harman?



AMEN BROTHER BURNER!! the next stove i will purchase is going to come from ENGLANDER STOVE where i KNOW i can get tech support...heck. if i have a problem, i know i can send Mike Holton a message, and it wont take days to hear back from him...already experianced his service when my neighbor had issues.

Stormy...i am so sorry for your bad luck with the P38, hoping for the best with the 43. DON'T let that install guy leave without starting up that stove, and making sure it is going to work properly.


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## Countryboymo (Nov 26, 2010)

I am starting to lean hard from my next stove being a mt vernon AE Quad to an Englander.. The peace of mind that support is available is hard to look past.


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## slls (Nov 27, 2010)

Quad's are really simple stoves, except for the AE of course.


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## gfreek (Nov 30, 2010)

Harman removed the picture with caption you posted on their Facebook page.  Its been quiet, whats the latest news??


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## stormy873 (Dec 1, 2010)

Hmmmm, well the jury is still out on this.

An unplanned work crisis left the boys (my husband and the installer) somewhat in charge of the stove swap.  By the time I got home it was sort of a done deal and I was told to leave the stove running at a higher temp for 3 hours to set the paint, turn it off and let it cool down fully and then turn back on for normal operation. 

Now, if it I was the installer I would have taken a wee bit of extra care to take some draft readings, maybe check a quick check of the outlet polarity, or maybe run the DDM? Just to make sure everything was "just right."  Maybe a bit of extra silicone at the joints, ya know....just to be sure.  Nope, he just swapped the stove out.  Told us to set it at room temp, thermostat at 75 degrees, feed at 4 and fill with pellets as needed. Sort of the pellet stove equivalent of Ron Polpeil and the "set it and forget it."  I'm thinking it may be a bit more complicated than that. <G>

The great:  I am mesmerized by a stove that lights and puts out heat.  Like primitive man seeing fire for the first time.  This stove operates entirely differently than the p-38 that formally sat in its spot.  Because it was the first day of operation and I am a bit spooked, I turned the stove off last night before bed and my morning went like this.  Up at 5:30 AM-house a nice brisk 56 degrees.  Cock head and look at stove, wonder if it will light.  Turn on as instructed and watch with fascination as stove miraculously produces flame less than two minutes later and a cheery fire was burning within five minutes.  (With the p-38 my record was 17 attempts to light the stove over a three hour period) This stove was nothing short of a frigging miracle!  Within one hour my house was a nice toasty 72 degrees.  

The I dunno:  It is also has a fair amount of smoke smell...It is because the stove is new and things are still sealing or?  Ya know, I haven't clue but thought, self you'd better buy a carbon monoxide detector and leave a window cracked.

The not so great:  I think I need some real world expertise on the best way to use this new stove.  I guess I have a weird set of circumstances because it has went out twice today so apparently I must of have missed something in the "set it and forget it" part.  In a nutshell my home is small, it is well insulated and although it loses heat over the course of hours it doesn't lose heat quickly so I am unsure the best setting for the stove so it simmers along without "choking it down" and forcing it to operate out of the stoves comfort zone.  I will start a new thread because I really would like to learn the "right" way to use the stove. 

The unresolved:  I am still pretty miffed that they had the audacity to actually charge me that $320 for the upgrade stove.  It is very short sighted of Harman and the dealer.  I have went through six full weeks of arguing with them over a stove that was profoundly broken.  I can tell you the p-38 never once ran like this p-43 does.  The flame was entirely different, the heat out-put (when it ran) was much less and this stove is just a whole different animal.  At this point, I have a credit charge dispute for the original purchase price of the stove which I will NOT settle until I am confident that the smoke issue has either cured itself after a few days of operation or they come back out and seal the stove.

So, I am in the learning mode regarding the new stove, hopeful that the smoke issues are just temporary and pleased to have heat.  I just need to learn the real world way of using it. 

Any P-43 owners that feel inclined to share, please feel free to look for my post requesting some information on the finer points of operation to do right by this stove.

Elise


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## MCPO (Dec 1, 2010)

Great news, at least that you now have heat.  After a few days your confidence level should rise with regards any initial apprehensions you might have . We certainly wish you the best.
 I`d like to have that faulty Harman P-38  in my garage to check out.  I feel pretty confident that I could find the problem. I just can`t figure why they made no big effort . I mean especially after the main board was replaced? The P-38 just isn`t complicated. The P-43 is basically the same stove but with an ignitor.


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## lmjr (Dec 1, 2010)

Wow, One hundred and twenty nine posts to this thread...because of a obviously defective product.

What a SHAME...


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## krooser (Dec 1, 2010)

This whole deal may have been avoided if Stormy's dealer did what my dealer does... pre-burn every stove (before the install)  for about 3 hours to make sure it works!!


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## gfreek (Dec 1, 2010)

The dealer near me also pre burns stoves.  Alot of the other dealers I asked said no.  Glad to see that you have a "functioning" stove.


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## Lorilooo (Dec 6, 2010)

Our dealer "pre-burns" at the shop, and again after install.  To me, this is just good business practice/customer service.   Sadly, I guess all dealers are not the same....


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## twojrts (Dec 6, 2010)

OMGoodness, I have been reading for over an hour!!  Stormy, I pray this new stove is working for you all.  Gotta say girl, you've got more patience than I have.

It's about time Harman stepped up to the plate!!  After this disaster, you should be qualified to be a Harma service tech, cuz it sounds like you know a whole lot more than the installer!!

Good Luck and prayers that "Harmy Jr." lives up to your expectations!!


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## gfreek (Dec 9, 2010)

Been quiet.  How is the new stove??


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