# Fresh Air Intake?



## LRRifleman (Apr 2, 2011)

Hello folks ... I need to apologize ... I have jut violated one of the cardinal tennants of being a guy ... I read the installation instructions for my pellet stove. This was the result of my wanting to verify how to adjust the fresh air intake damper of my stove ... and I think I regret having trusted the "professional installation". 

According to the Technical Manual for my Regency pellet stove, the manufacturer requires fresh air venting if the pellet stove is installed in a monile home or an "airtight" house, and "strongly recommended" for ALL installations. Since my stove was installed (just prior to Christmas), I have been concerned about the pellet burn. Recently, pellet burn has been rather incomplete. Needless to say, my stove is drawing fresh air from within the house/room where the stove is installed. 

My questions ... 
a) If your pellet (or wood) stove is installed without a fresh air intake outside of the house, do you experience complete pellet burn?
b) If your stove is installed without a fresh air intake outside of the house, do you (or any family members) experience light-headedness?
c) Do you feel it is safe to operate a stove that does NOT have a fresh air intake drawing fresh air from outside the home?

Thank you for your time and input!


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## DexterDay (Apr 2, 2011)

A) If your house is tight enough, you may not get a complete burn. Also you will draw air in through the "Drafty" places in your home if its not tight.
B) If you or anyone has "Light-Headedness" then the venting may be leaking into your home. Do you have a CO detector?
C) It is safe to burn, so long as the Manufacturer does not absolutely require this. And you don't mind the combustion air coming from "Leaks" in your home. 

Not familiar with Regency, but Englander REQUIRES an OAK for installs. This is why every stove comes with one when you purchase the unit. 

If you are getting an incomplete burn. You must do one of two things. (or both). Increase your combustion air through your damper, or decrease your fuel feed rate.


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## LRRifleman (Apr 2, 2011)

Hello!

1) Sadly, my house is rather airtight ... very few drafts in the living room where the stove is.
2) Yes, I did install a CO detector with the first "light-headedness" experience. 
3) What is an OAK? Outside Air K???


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## DexterDay (Apr 2, 2011)

LRRifleman said:
			
		

> Hello!
> 
> 1) Sadly, my house is rather airtight ... very few drafts in the living room where the stove is.
> 2) Yes, I did install a CO detector with the first "light-headedness" experience.
> 3) What is an OAK? Outside Air K???



Yes an OAK is an Outside Air Kit. Do you smell smoke in your home. If your vent was leaking, this would normally be when its igniting the pellets. When the stove is the smokiest...

Why do you say you are getting an incomplete burn? What is your venting set-up (Flue)? Do you have 3" or 4" PL pipe? Is is Direct-Vent (straight through the wall), or do you have any vertical rise? If so, how much? Can you describe your Vent? Piece by Piece? (i.e.- Stove adapter to 1 foot horizontal, to Clean-out T (90), 4 feet vert, to 90, to 3 feet horizontal, to termination cap) Being Professionally installed, I would hope they followed the guidelines for EVL.


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## LRRifleman (Apr 2, 2011)

On ocassion, I do smell smoke.
I am burning the Lignette Pellets ... generally, the pellets are not burning completely, and I am getting a residual build-up in the burning tray ... sometimes it gets about an inch thick ... with burned pellets retaining much of their original shape. The build-up in the "burn tray" actually tends to suffocate the fire. 

Honestly, I am starting to believe that the stove is poorly designed. The "fire tray" where the pellets burn is "vented" on the bottom, but there is only barely an inch of "drop clearance" for the ashes to drop in the bracket box that holds the "burn/fire tray". Generally, the ashes are accumlating heavily around the door ... not dropping freely to the grate seperating the fire chamber from the ash "tray/drawer". 

The vents ... the air intake vent terminates about an inch away from the unit, and is drawing fresh air from within the house. The exhaust vent is a bit "complex". The vent is of horizontal design using what looks like regular 4" stove pipe. 

The venting system is as follows:
Pellet stove ... attached directly to a clean out "T" (approx. 2" of horizontal pipe), about 2 foot of vertical stove pipe leading to the 90 degree elbow, leading to the thru-the-wall fixture ... approximately a foot of protrusion outside of the structure ... then a 45 degree nozzle ... that is the vent .


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## DexterDay (Apr 2, 2011)

Lignetic's are a pretty good pellet. Actually, really good. Just picked up 2 tons today. Do they have Lignetic's wrote in "Green" or "Blue" or are they the Prest-Logs that are made my them. Do you have an air adjustment (Damper) for your intake air? Does this "Build-up" still look like burning pellets (Black)? Or does it resemble ash that has not been expelleded from the pot. The ash should not be dropping through the holes in the Burnpot ("Firetray"). There should be enough air coming through the holes in the burnpot to expel the ash or almost burnt pellets, once new pellets start dropping into the pot. Then the ash should accumulate in the ash pan (if you have one) or the bottom of your stove.

Also you shouldn't smell smoke. Did they seal your joints with High Temp Silicone? Or a Vent tape (looks like a aluminium foil)? 

Looking up your manual now.


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## LRRifleman (Apr 2, 2011)

Hello!

Lignetics is actually in Green. These pellets are purchase by the ton from Tractor Supply.

I actually had to clean out the burn tray today ... the build up of unburned pellets is actually clay-like unburned mud ... it cakes up hard. Generally, much of the ash is blown around the burning chamber and accumulates around the door opening. The damper is (I hope) controlling the fresh air intake ...the stove just "suffocated" itself and burned out ...


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## heat seeker (Apr 2, 2011)

The lack of OAK will be felt even more if you are running an exhaust fan in the house, such as a dryer, bathroom fan, range hood that's vented outside, etc. They will compete with the stove for air, and will probably win, and may even draw smoke into the house in extreme cases.

If you have a gas water heater, the stove could cause negative pressure in the house and draw its exhaust into the living area - including CO!

I had an attic fan in another house. The previous owner warned me to keep the basement door closed when running the fan, and showed me the scorch marks where the fan actually sucked the flame out of the oil burner. A friend of mine turned on his attic fan with the fireplace damper open, and not enough windows open -  all of the ashes in the fireplace "exploded" all over the living room and hallway. What a mess! These are extreme examples, yes, but you could be doing the same thing on a smaller scale with your stove.

I had an OAK installed because I felt it was counterproductive to draw in cold outside air to replace combustion air. I'm glad I did!


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## DexterDay (Apr 2, 2011)

LRRifleman said:
			
		

> Hello!
> 
> Lignetics is actually in Green. These pellets are purchase by the ton from Tractor Supply.
> 
> I actually had to clean out the burn tray today ... the build up of unburned pellets is actually clay-like unburned mud ... it cakes up hard. Generally, much of the ash is blown around the burning chamber and accumulates around the door opening. The damper is (I hope) controlling the fresh air intake ...the stove just "suffocated" itself and burned out ...



4. FEED RATE TRIM BUTTON:
Used to change the feed rate trims in Â¼ second increments for all
feed settings. When this button is pressed, all the light will light up on
the Heat Output Indicator except for the one that shows the current
setting; the default setting is the number 4 light. To adjust the setting
hold the Feed Rate Trim button down and press the Heat Level up or
down buttons to adjust the setting.
5. COMBUSTION BLOWER TRIM BUTTON: Used to change the
Combustion Blower trims in 5 volt increments for all feed settings until
it reaches line voltage. When this button is pressed, all the light will
light up on the Heat Output Indicator except for the one that shows
the current setting; the default setting is the number 2 light. To adjust
the setting hold the Combustion Blower Trim button down and press
the Heat Level up or down buttons to adjust the setting.


NOTE:
Incorrect use of the Damper will cause malfunction and poor
results from your stove or insert.

These are straight from your manual. If your Damper is not set right. You will have a lazy flame that will encourage build-up. Also you can lower the feed settings as noted above. Open your Damper. Your flame should be very active. Not like a "Blowtorch" but it should not look like a "Wood" fire. Pellet stoves need a correct amount of Air/Fuel ratio. Just like your vehicle does. Without the "Correct" amount, it will run like crap.


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## LRRifleman (Apr 2, 2011)

@ Heat Seeker:

I did not realize about the competition between pellet stove and clothes dryer.
I am confused by your last line ... would not the OAK draw in cold air to "feed" the fire?? If so, hw is that counter productive?


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## heat seeker (Apr 2, 2011)

LRRifleman said:
			
		

> @ Heat Seeker:
> 
> I did not realize about the competition between pellet stove and clothes dryer.
> I am confused by your last line ... would not the OAK draw in cold air to "feed" the fire?? If so, hw is that counter productive?



The cold air never leaves the stove - it's used in the combustion area, then vented outside. Ideally, the combustion airflow is completely sealed from the living area, both the fresh air coming in, and the burned gasses going out. Without the OAK, you are drawing heated room air from the living area, which has to be replaced by (cold) outside air.


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## heat seeker (Apr 2, 2011)

LRRifleman said:
			
		

> @ Heat Seeker:
> 
> I did not realize about the competition between pellet stove and clothes dryer.
> I am confused by your last line ... would not the OAK draw in cold air to "feed" the fire?? If so, hw is that counter productive?



Sorry, I wasn't clear. _Without_ the OAK, the stove uses inside air for combustion, drawing outside air into the living area. _With_ an OAK, the stove uses only outside air for combustion.


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## krooser (Apr 2, 2011)

Without an OAK your stove is also using up the oxygen that you need to breath....add a few other gas fired appliances to the mix and you can run out of oxygen real quick.


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## DexterDay (Apr 2, 2011)

LRRifleman said:
			
		

> @ Heat Seeker:
> 
> I did not realize about the competition between pellet stove and clothes dryer.
> I am confused by your last line ... would not the OAK draw in cold air to "feed" the fire?? If so, hw is that counter productive?



By not having an OAK. You are pulling cold air in through every crack and leaky place in your home. If you have an OAK, the stove uses this air for combustion, then expells it out. Without an OAK you are taking air that you heated and throwing it outside of your home. Go outside and feel how much air comes out of your vent. The amount of air that is expelled, must be brought in your home to replenish it. 

 I would try the Damper, and/or adjusting the Feed Trim.


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## DexterDay (Apr 2, 2011)

krooser said:
			
		

> Without an OAK your stove is also using up the oxygen that you need to breath....add a few other gas fired appliances to the mix and you can run out of oxygen real quick.





Seeing your Signature Krooser, made me realize to ask LRRifleman, When was the last time your stove was cleaned. 

Fully cleaned............. Vent and all ash traps, burpot, and behind baffles. If its been over 2 months. Then its necessary to CLEAN" it.


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## LRRifleman (Apr 2, 2011)

Hi.

Well ...the stove was installed the Monday before Christmas ... it has been in almost continuous use since with the exception of a few days while I was hospitalized (kidney problems) and for a few road trips entailing a couple of weekends. Additionally, the stove was out of operation for about 3 weeks while the seller of the stove obtained a replacement glass pane to replace one the cracked. 

I have cleaned the interior of the stove ... burn pot, etc about once every 2 to 3 weeks. The (exhaust) vent has never been cleaned. 

Of note, I have followed the pellet burn ... a 40# bag of pellets is consumed in about 18 hours ... that was typically with an outdoor temperature (at night) dropping into the single digits and dytime highs rnning about 30 or so. The dealer also presumed the stove had a external thrmostat that could be attached, not realzing that a thermostat had to be purchased locally and installed. Hence, the burn rate has been manually controlled, with the heat setting at the lowest setting.


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## DexterDay (Apr 2, 2011)

LRRifleman said:
			
		

> Hi. I have cleaned the interior of the stove ... burn pot, etc about once every 2 to 3 weeks. The (exhaust) vent has never been cleaned.



 Have you checked your vent cap? The caps plug pretty easily. I do a "Ful Cleaning" every month. This includes using a leaf-blower, and cleaning the flue, emptying ash pan, cleaning the burnpot, and running brushes up every nook and cranny.


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## DexterDay (Apr 2, 2011)

Did the stove ever do this before? If not, then you have a dirty stove, or maybe an "air leak" from a door gasket or an ash pan gasket. Any air leak will prohibit air from coming through the burn pot. Which results in a "Bad Burn".

Straight out of the owners manual also


If the fire should happen to go out and the heat output indicator has been
set on the lowest setting, the Slider Damper should be pushed in slightly,
decreasing the air in the firebox.

If, after long periods of burning, the fire builds up and overflows the burn pot
or there is a build up of clinkers, this would be a sign that the pellet quality
is poor, this requires more primary air, the slider damper must be pulled out
to compensate. Pulling the slider damper out gives the fire more air.
The easiest way to make sure that an efficient flame is achieved is to
understand the characteristics of the fire.

â€¢ A tall, lazy fl ame with dark orange tips requires more air â€“ Open slider
(pull out) slightly.

â€¢ A short, brisk fl ame, like a blowtorch, has too much air â€“ Close slider
(push in) slightly.

â€¢ If the flame is in the middle of these two characteristics with a bright
yellow/orange, active flame with no black tips then the air is set for
proper operation, refer to Figure 8.

The combustion exhaust blower is a variable speed blower controlled by
the heat output button. This blower will decrease the vacuum pressure
inside the stove and as the heat output button is turned down.


SPECIAL NOTES:
Pellet quality is a major factor in how the Pellet stove will operate. If the
pellets have a high moisture or ash content the fire will be less efficient
and has a higher possibility of the fire building up and creating clinkers
(hard ash build-up).
Figure 8: Efficient Flame.
NOTE:
Incorrect use of the Damper will cause malfunction and poor
results from your stove or insert.


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## save$ (Apr 2, 2011)

DexterDay has covered this subject very well.  I experienced this situation once.  Hate to admit it, but found that I hadn't latched the ash door securely.  My latches are behind a hinged cover.  When I secured the latch, my burn returned to normal.  This goes to support the importance of knowing your draft.  If you think your stove is being starved for air due to a lack of OAK, just open a window for a while and monitor the burn.  No change, then chances are it is the stove's draft, dirty stove or pellet issues.   Remember, even a good brand of pellet can give a poor burn if they have been exposed to moisture.  I highly encourage you to install OAK.  It saves money, limits drafty floors, and won't compete for the air needed for combustion.  
Krooser did the original posting on the leaf bower in 2008.  You can find it by using the search box upper left of this forum.  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/29847/  Shouldn't cost more than $50 bucks that will get you a stove cleaning device that will return your stove to "like new".  You still have to to the inside cleaning, but wow, what a job this does cleaning the venting.  I do this cleaning with every ton burned.  That schedule serves me well.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Apr 2, 2011)

Plenty of ways to play the suck the heated air out of a house game.

In each case the replacement air must come from outside the building.

I vote for keeping mine.


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## jtakeman (Apr 2, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> *I vote for keeping mine. *



Me 2, After all it did cost me something to heat it. 

Funny how the bathroom fan breaks every winter? Only problem is what to use for an excuss this year, I think I have used them all!


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## LRRifleman (Apr 3, 2011)

Hello!

Just an update. I just did a thorough (shiop vac) cleaning of the stove today, then readjusted the auger speed control and the combustion fan speed on top of setting the damper ... stove appears to be burning acceptably now.

Went to the installing delear today. Spoke with the owner, and was somewhat disturbed and disappointed with what I foud out. Apparently, they have NEVER installed an OAK on any of the wood or pellet stoves they have sold or installed. I was a bit taken back when the owner came up with a mild reactio and retort to the manufacturer's recommendation for an OAK as being merely a lawyer-ese lea suit prevent clainm in the event that something ever did go wrong. Bottom line ... they would install and OAY at extra cost ... the longer I can hold off until the "stov season" demand subsides, the better my price will be. 

Is it me, or does the dealer's response sound like a scream to be sued if something does go wrong??


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## bacsibob (Apr 3, 2011)

When I bought my first pellet stove, it did not even occur to me to not install an OAK. I have yet to see an acceptable (to me) argument for not using one. One of the the advantages of a pellet stove over a fireplace is not using heated air to feed the fire. Also, in older homes, the negative pressure generated by a stove without an OAK may not pop your eardrums but you can bet cold air is coming into the house because of it. In newer homes, sending heated air from the living space out the flu has to dilute/degrade the air quality.


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## TLHinCanada (Apr 3, 2011)

While drafts would be a concern without oak hooked up, the real concern could be if you still have your furnace and are useing it for a backup.  If both are running at the same time there is a potential problem.  I have noticed a lot of people on this forum leave their furnace thermostat set low in case of pellet stove problems or real cold weather.  I would suggest a OAK is a good precaution if your house has any other source of combustion it is a must if you are still using another furnace.


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## rona (Apr 3, 2011)

There is so many reasons to use outside air I can't imagine why any dealer would choose to not install it other then lost profit.
   It does cost time and material and I expect to gain a sale the dealer may ignore it as a cost savings and potential deal breaker if the bottom line gets to high.
   A person purchases this type of stove to save money and simple logic would tell you using the inside air you have heated is a waste of money plus you are drawing cold outside from cracks etc into the house to replace the hot air you use for combustion.  
   Another thing to think about is this is a prime place for smoke to seep out from the stove if the power goes out.


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## heat seeker (Apr 3, 2011)

I had to firmly ask for my OAK to be installed, and the dealer charged me an extra $100 - for another 20 minutes of work and a few inexpensive parts. Still, I'm glad I did for all of the here mentioned reasons. It also helps when the power goes out and the fans stop, since we get very little smoke in the house, even with a horizontal vent.


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## LRRifleman (Apr 3, 2011)

I do not like the idea that the dealer is adding this to the installation cost I already paid. 
I bought a portable (2400 watt) generator for the power outages, so I can keep my toddlers warm and the refrigerator running. 
Fortunately, my stove will be a saving grace during power outages and when it comes to the gas bill!


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## rona (Apr 3, 2011)

One good comparison is to ask why just about all of the newer furnaces oil, LP or Nat gas  use outside air.  The new homes are all tighter and when you have vent fans running in bathrooms, kitchens etc plus now your new stove  there is  a limit. I helped install a stove in a night club  and when they turned on the kitchen fans and fans for the main rooms you could see the flame drop to nothing. We installed the outside air kit and it worked like it was designed too.
  The sad thing is we as consumers don't know enough about these stoves before hand and there is sometimes a tuition to be paid after the fact. A dealer can minimize this learning experience but if he makes it to complicated he will miss the sale. I can see where it is hard to know where to draw the line as his competitor down the road may ignore the outside air and of course quote the lower price and get the sale.


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## Don2222 (Apr 3, 2011)

Hello

After putting in my Wood pellet stove OAK located right near my oil boiler
See pics of OAK below.

I put an OAK on the Oil Boiler so they would not fight for my heated air!! So I win LOL 

See Oil Boiler OAK pics here!!
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/58408/


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## dragracer300 (Apr 3, 2011)

I didn't install a oak when i first installed my stove and my house always felt drafty so i installed the oak and man what a difference. I put a ball valve on mine to control the air and to be able to shut it off in the summer but i wouldn't run without it now.


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## pur pony (Nov 8, 2012)

I just had an insert installed without a OAK.. i asked the installing dealer about it and said it is not needed. I also have my oil furnace which I use for hot water....

How are all of you installing your OAK? I have a vent built into the side of my fireplace/chimney. There is a round disc that spins off a threaded rod to give fresh air to the wood fireplace. I would like to tap off of this and use is as an OAK for my pellet stove. 
Has anyone done this? Im guessing im going to have to make my own mounting part.


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## briansol (Nov 8, 2012)

Do it.  I am in the process of getting parts together to do mine.  I wish my dealer had a clue too.  Seems to be a common thread here....   wish i knew better at the time.


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## battlesphoto (Jan 16, 2013)

I am going to both the town building inspector to see why they did not question this when they inspected my stoves.
Then I want to know why Home and Hearth did not install one when they put my two stoves in.
If the tech manual for installation states in big bold letters "it is highly recommended that an air intake be installed" why would they not do it???
Better yet why did they not even mention to me this to discuss????
Hell will be paid today. I am beyond angry.
Wasted Heat! No wonder we have been feeling big drafts! AND reduced oxygen in the house! I have two little ones!
Don't mess with Mama.
Again woke up to black glass, black back of firebox, clinker with damper wide open all doors closed tight and even tried new pellets.


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## briansol (Jan 16, 2013)

Good luck.  I don't think you'll get anywhere with it though....


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## StormPanic (Jan 16, 2013)

Funny this is the 3rd or 4th person I have seen in the past week that bought the same stove I did and is having the same problem I did.  I cannot recommend installing the OAK enough.  I had the same problem with incomplete burn.  The OAK fixed it immediately.


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## StormPanic (Jan 16, 2013)

Here's a before / after OAK install of my stove flame for reference.  Before = fat, lazy and slow, After = white hot inferno of destruction


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## stovelark (Jan 16, 2013)

Hi all-   I will tell you-   wished more dealers would talk to customers about OA.  I always bring it up if possible with a cust-   there is add'l cost    but most people don't mind the extra, espec after you explain benefits.  Extra liners up fireplaces are a pain     but can be done.  Going out of the back of a fp or hooking into existing fp fresh air vent isn't particularly easy either.  Another thing for serviceguys to remember about for maint (inserts), so it is more work. I will tell you tho, I have Selkirk DT on my EF3, but use inside air for my Empress, both work well.  I also find the Empress a little more finicky with pellet quality than the EF3-  but I will say    there are lots more non OAK stoves running out there- a lot of installers like the single pipe install.....   hate to say but its incumbent on the buyer to know and want outside air, it shouldn't be though, you'd think the sales folks would be the "subject matter experts" on operation.  Good luck to all

Stovelark
Enviro EF3 FS pellet
Enviro Empress FPI AC pellet
Enviro Kodiak 1700 FS wood (still love my woodstove)


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## briansol (Jan 16, 2013)

I fyou don't mind me asking, what do you think a run of that dual liner about about 20 feet would cost?


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## stovelark (Jan 17, 2013)

Hi Brian-   for an insert a 25' 4" ss liner kits goes for about $500. If you want 3" run of gas liner (alum, only used for intake air, thats about $50.  Thats material cost, labor to deliver and install liner kit and stove, around another $600. If you want outside air added after install, you'd have to negotiate that labor cost. Some installers will balk at opening up that, remember the ideal fresh air would go full length of the chimney and terminate through the top plate of the exhaust liner, we cut 3-1/4" hole and bring the 3" fresh air liner through and 90 deg terminate with a rodent/bird screen.  Obviously, much easier to do on initial install, as a backfit, will prob cost about as much laborwise as new install, espec if you need to break into the existing exhaust liner kit.  Hope this helps. For your insert, if you have the fresh air shroud (looks like you do) consider a flexi conn pipe and go thru the back of the fireplace for fresh air, if thats what you want, that might be an easier backfit install. Hope this didn't add more confustion.

Stovelark
Enviro EF3 FS pellet
Enviro Empress FPI AC pellet
Enviro Kodiak 1700 FS wood


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## briansol (Jan 17, 2013)

Thanks,
I'm against breaking the brick in the back.  I've debated it and have decided against it.   If not for the integrity itself, but also the fact that it leads out to an encolsed porch area (roof), not just an open outside wall.

I was thinking that this was the 2-in-1 piping kit.  I think that's what I want to run.
http://www.selkirkcorp.com/selkirk/Product.aspx?id=7428
but i'm not even sure if it is available as an insert liner.   1 run up and out seems like the most logical thing to do i think.  I hate my exhaust piping anyway, and would like to upgrade it to something that isn't a POS.


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