# Commune in 2011?



## daveswoodhauler (Mar 26, 2010)

Well, not a commune...but my wife and I were talking about this the other day.
We were thinking that it would be a pretty cool idea to start a development of small homes (say 2000 sf and under...not Mcmansions), but include enough land that we could have some community farming, as well as perhaps a solar grid system to distribute the power to all homes equally.
I guess I am thinking a "mother earth" type community on steroids 
I guess you would run into the problem of some folks signing up thinking it would be a good idea, but after some hard work realising the farming thing isn't for them.
Not really looking for a huge farm to sustain the entire population of the development, but would think that a group of 8-10 households with smaller houses, and smaller lots would be cool, and then the major areas of land can be used for community purposes, recreation, farming, solar,etc.. 
This would not be a development for the folks that think they are "green" by driving 3 large SUVs that just happen to be a hybrid getting 18 mpg 
Just thinking perhaps I am turning into a hippie


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## BucksCoBernie (Mar 27, 2010)

Davesbehemothwoodcart said:
			
		

> Well, not a commune...but my wife and I were talking about this the other day.
> We were thinking that it would be a pretty cool idea to start a development of small homes (say 2000 sf and under...not Mcmansions), but include enough land that we could have some community farming, as well as perhaps a solar grid system to distribute the power to all homes equally.
> I guess I am thinking a "mother earth" type community on steroids
> I guess you would run into the problem of some folks signing up thinking it would be a good idea, but after some hard work realising the farming thing isn't for them.
> ...



I thought about this a few months ago. I'd love to start something similar but each household is allowed 1 automobile for traveling outside the community. Inside they have to ride horses, maybe electric golf carts or something. I am anti-hippie though haha.


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## Burn-1 (Mar 27, 2010)

This has been a developing trend for several years now and sort of comes in two flavors. One is the Ross Chapin style like some of his "pocket neighborhood" planned developments. The other trend is co-housing. I've been to a couple co-housing developments in my area Cobb Hill in Hartland, VT (heated by a communal GARN boiler), and Nubannusit Neighborhood and Farm in Peterborough. Cobb Hill is sold out but Nubanusit still has a lot of inventory but they were asking some very high prices.


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## Bobbin (Mar 27, 2010)

Funny how things like "communes" come full circle, huh?  My late FIL is responsible for the neighborhood/development I live in... all lots are 2 acres but there are some really stupid rules... no clothesline, no barnyard animals!  Naturally, we've flouted it from the very beginning; but when the area was "developed" the intent was to make it more "upscale".  We are the only people in the immediate area who have a garden, and our's is in the "front yard", it gets the best, sunniest hunk of real estate on our property.  It's beautiful; people stop their cars to take pictures of it, lol.  

Times change and sensibilities change, too.  And I think that's a good thing.  My mother always referred to the garden as our "Victory Garden"; she was a child of the Depression and came of age in the "war years" when many people in rather urban settings had small vegetable gardens or a coop with half a dozen chickens...  no one complained about clotheslines because dryers had yet to be "invented"!


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 27, 2010)

Nice idea, but I think the 80/20 rule would hit hard.  80% of work is done by 20% of people...  

Matt


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## JustWood (Mar 27, 2010)

Ja ,eye was thinking the same thing. Most of the people interested in that sort of thing wood be city transplants.
There wood be constant problems:
The smell of cow chit.
The placement of solar panels wood always be an issue because of an "obstructed view".
Idle farm equipment wood be considered an eyesore.
Kids getting cut on a livestock fence wood warrant a lawsuit.
etc. etc. etc.


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## Flatbedford (Mar 27, 2010)

I have a cousin down in Georgia who has been involved in the whole "new urbanism" thing for a few years now. There are places like this either in planning stage or even being built now. There was an attempt to use concepts like this in the rebuilding effort after hurricane Katrina.


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## webbie (Mar 27, 2010)

We have quite a few places like that in the pioneer valley - usually called co-housing these days, but also other names and methods. It's funny, but so much is in a name! The same people who shudder at the thought of a commune end up living in a gated community where they have all the restrictive rules and other stuff.....not much different, in theory, from a commune! Some people like golf and tennis and boating, and others like gardening and saving energy, etc.

This type of community is a great idea......here are some links:
http://www.cohousing.org/2010/overview (trade show and conference)

This one is local and somewhat urban, but still about saving energy, etc.
http://www.rockyhillcohousing.org/

It would be cool to have district heating! You could have a big wood boiler with gas or oil backup which provided (and metered) underground heat to all the homes!


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## webbie (Mar 27, 2010)

FYI, I lived on a ag commune for a couple years back in the early 1970's.
This place:
http://www.thefarm.org/

We certainly burned a lot of wood stoves, and many of the people who are still there still do! They also teach permaculture and other skills.

We are still in touch with lots of our friends from back there, including the midwife who delivered our first daughter (in a tent!).


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## JustWood (Mar 27, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> We have quite a few places like that in the pioneer valley - usually called co-housing these days, but also other names and methods. It's funny, but so much is in a name! The same people who shudder at the thought of a commune end up living in a gated community where they have all the restrictive rules and other stuff.....not much different, in theory, from a commune! Some people like golf and tennis and boating, and others like gardening and saving energy, etc.
> 
> This type of community is a great idea......here are some links:
> http://www.cohousing.org/2010/overview (trade show and conference)
> ...



Co-generation wood be sweet too.


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## VCBurner (Mar 30, 2010)

Very interesting thread Dave!  Everyone has chimed in with usefull information.  This sounds like a good way of getting back to the roots and saving everyone some money in the long run.  I'm sure, as others have mentioned, it would be difficult to make sure everyone does their share of the work.


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## Badfish740 (Apr 1, 2010)

Backwoods Home Magazine had an article on something similar with regard to pooling money to purchase land.  Often large tracts are simply too expensive for a single family to afford, so they suggested going in with four or five families and buying a large piece of land (we're talking 150-200 acres) with enough suitable building sites for each family.  Once the purchase had been made it could simply be subdivided in such a way that gives everyone access to the road, tillable lands, water rights if water is available, etc...  I always said that if I ever won the lottery I'd buy 500-600 acres and offer my immediate family members (mom, dad, in-laws, brother, and sibling-in-laws) homes on the property if they wanted them.  Nice idea but until I hit the powerball it's out of my price range.


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## Dune (Apr 3, 2010)

I'd be interested except for the rules part. The whole point would be to have more freedom, not some anti-hippie telling me how many cars I can have and what I have to drive when I am "home".


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## midwestcoast (May 4, 2010)

I dream of co-creating/joining a similar community. I've dreamed about it for years. 
I see buying a larger piece of land co-operatively, setting most of it aside for conservation, agriculture, community garden... and clustering some homes closely together like a little village with each household owning their home & lot so they can still do as they please, then have a common building for group meals, office-space, guests...
In my dream we live in closer connection with each other, with the earth and ultimately with ourselves.  
I already live in a community of course, and have some really good friends there but still can feel isolated from my neighbors. I can grow some veggies in a little patch of ground & heat with wood I cut & split, but it sure doesn't compare to the connection I developed with the family farm.
I'm amazed by how often I meet folks with similar feelings about community. 
I really don't think I or most others could enjoy life in a full commune where everything is a joint decision though. We're too many generations removed from living in tribal villages and value our independant lifestyles too much to make that leap easily.


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## Fsappo (May 28, 2010)

Strange.  I dont have much to contribute right now except that I have daydreamed about a variation of this.  The thing that kept snagging the dream was how long the commune would last before someone would stop pulling their weight.  In this day and age of whiners and lawyers, I think human nature would ruin it.  Maybe, if someone could just be voted out by the majority, for causing trouble or not pitching in, with no recourse..maybe.  Now, if there was a likeminded group of individuals who showed brotherly love and charity to each other and the world.  Always met upon the level and parted on the square...then possibly I would take my dream further.


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## begreen (May 28, 2010)

Locally, we have a couple successful small living communities that are thriving. The homes are built by the owners with professional assistance. They share a large communal garden and common spaces. These have turned out to be quite special places for those living there. We looked at one and were impressed by the quality of work and nice landscaping, all done by the residents.


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## jebatty (Jun 11, 2010)

As my wife and I consider what to do with our land, in addition to the talk with our children which we started last year and is continuing, this thought also has crossed our minds. Our county has a new conservation design development ordinance which, although aimed at reducing the adverse environmental impact of lake shore developments, would allow this kind of development off-lake as well. Apart from the reduced footprint of the building development site(s), there would be common ground for food raising, recreation, etc., as well as the bulk of the property in a conservation easement which would allow sustainable agricultural and forestry uses, but no other development.

In addition to the issues raised by others, our area is very low income with poor job opportunity, and a community aimed at the high end would have to be on lake shore, which this property does not have and if it did would price it very high, so the community would have to be aimed at low income families which is altruistic but also impacts the sustainability of the community for financial reasons. 

The thought lives on ....


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## daveswoodhauler (Jun 11, 2010)

Wish you were closer Jim..sounds like a good idea on what to do with your land.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 11, 2010)

I have looked online at a few of these out of curiosity.  In addition to the possible work issues, I would also think about the relationship with neighbors deteriorating as if you went into business with a friend.

It makes a lot of sense, but so do a lot of political and social experiments in other countries...  I may be too pessimistic


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## Slow1 (Jun 17, 2010)

I've dreamed of such a thing as well.  Seems a common thing among those of us who have a bit of a self reliance streak perhaps?  

As I have tried to imagine actually making something like this work I've bucketed the challenges into a few categories - there are the obvious/easy to overcome ones such as finding an acceptable location, financing etc (I say easy as these are basically business issues that can be worked out ahead of time and 'solved' on paper).  Then there are the more difficult ones that are dealing with people.

The people issues then come into how the community is to be organized - how 'tight' is the group to be socially?  Is it a group of individual households that happen to be in the same area that share some community resources in a recreation model (like the condo association pool but instead it is a farm?). Or is the model to be more of a close knit social group where folks are expected to form something more like a family/tribe where everyone mixes on a more or less constant basis and day to day live chores are shared?  I see benefits being optimal somewhere in between - I like my individual freedom of course (like most) but the closer you work together the greater the potential community gain in efficiencies I would think.

Governance then becomes interesting too - there have to be some rules and the group obviously needs to be self governing.  Nobody wants to pull in lawyers and take it up in the courts (even folks living in a community with covenants typically want to avoid this eh?).  So depending on the social fabric one builds the governance side could be quite interesting.  

I've not studied models of how successful communities have thrived - I'm sure there is much to be learned.  Having a stable community must require starting with the right mix of individuals with a common vision - but as time goes on I imagine challenges (internal and external in origin) must test the fabric fairly frequently.  My guess is that it takes at least one strong leader within the group to keep things together during these times.

Even a desire to return to the "simple ways" can't be simple can it?


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 18, 2010)

Cant see myself in that scenario,Better to just do your own thing Eco -wise and make all your own decisions.
I think most Green people are pretty independent anyway.


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## Slow1 (Jun 18, 2010)

Well, as much as I agree independence is great there is only so much you can do to minimize waste keeping yourself (or your family) isolated.  I look at my house/home and see much wasted space and resources.  Now, I could downsize and thus reduce my energy footprint but there are those times when we do use the extra space so we'd miss it frankly so we have the space for those times.. if we shared our space then we can have it available for 'those times' yet not everyone has to have it independently.

Then there is the benefit of shared labor etc - doing a large garden (small farm) generally requires a large amount of labor for shorter periods of time.  Having more people invested in the process gives more hands at those times so greater yields can be achieved.  Not to mention it generally is just simply more fun to work with a group on many of these tasks.  Skill sets and interests vary too - being a one man show is fine if you like doing everything equally well and can do it all, but few really are masters of all trades and skills (as much as we think we are) so again an overall higher quality skill pool can result from sharing across the community.

Of course these are just the good points eh?

Being independent you don't have to worry about egos (well, your own but we can generally deal with ourselves eh?) or politics between people, or jealousy of this and that etc.  You know you are pulling your own weight (or you will feel the consequences and you only have yourself to blame!).

I tend to believe that there is a limit to how much one person can achieve by him/herself.  Only in working as a group can truly great things be achieved.

My wife, however, is on the "keep independent" side of things unless the individuals involved are close friends/family already.  I think there is something to be said to this point of view but I don't have enough like minded friends/family yet


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## webbie (Jun 18, 2010)

Slow1 said:
			
		

> Governance then becomes interesting too - there have to be some rules and the group obviously needs to be self governing.  Nobody wants to pull in lawyers and take it up in the courts (even folks living in a community with covenants typically want to avoid this eh?).  So depending on the social fabric one builds the governance side could be quite interesting.
> 
> I've not studied models of how successful communities have thrived - I'm sure there is much to be learned.  Having a stable community must require starting with the right mix of individuals with a common vision - but as time goes on I imagine challenges (internal and external in origin) must test the fabric fairly frequently.  My guess is that it takes at least one strong leader within the group to keep things together during these times.
> 
> Even a desire to return to the "simple ways" can't be simple can it?



You are very cognizant to understand the complexities!
We lived in a real community (very famous - The Farm in TN) for a number of years. We had 3 square miles (1800+ acres) as well as over 1,000 people. We had industries, doctors, hundreds of acres farmed, thousands of children born, etc.

I could tell you some stories!

The Farm was arguably the most successful large "spiritual community" of modern times, yet the heyday only lasted about 7-10 years. To give you an idea of how "green" we were, consider that in 1972 we lived on ONE DOLLAR per day per person...for everything from food to fuel to housing and medical care. That's a real feat.......

Well, books have been written about it, but as you suggest it is so complex that it defies easy pigeonholing. We had a strong leader, and many other strong leaders in trades, farming, midwifery, etc. 
We had the dream.
We had the land.

But, as happens every time in such utopian dreams, human nature and society eventually made things on the inside quite similar to those on the outside! People naturally seems to enjoy power...and also to think their point of view is the right one! Others seem to always like to follow.....people they (often wrongly) perceive are "better" than themselves.

All the varied comedies and tragedies were present...we dealt with life and death regularly, but it was much more intimate. 

An interesting experience which, for better or worse, probably shaped a lot of my life since.


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## southernpine (Jun 20, 2010)

> I thought about this a few months ago. I’d love to start something similar but each household is allowed 1 automobile for traveling outside the community. Inside they have to ride horses, maybe electric golf carts or something. I am anti-hippie though haha.


Give peace a chance, man. 

I believe the communal lifestyle is a wonderful idea, but I believe it can only work as and idea.  I won't go into the details of my beliefs on the issue because the post above mine pretty much sums up how I feel.  I will say that in my opinion to make this work you would need a group of people with exactly the same ideals and a diligent screening process to find the right people, but if any of you have ever conducted job interviews and then hired someone, you will know that that person many times will not actually be the type of person you thought they were.  Myself, I prefer solitude and individualism.  I do my best to be green.  I don't drive without a destination and do that as little as possible.  I practice the three R's.  I have a thermonuclear clothes dryer (more popularly known as a clothes line.)  I'm converting to solar.  I grow food.  I burn a renewable resource for heat and so on and so forth.  All of this said, if i decide i want to bring out one of my loud gas guzzling 1950's iron behemoths for an occasional drive I don't want Mr. Prius giving me hell and I don't want to spend every spare daylight minute working in the communal garden while Mr. Prius touches up his manicure.  Sorry but I am a bit biased against Prius' and their owners.  Hope I don't offend anyone too much.   I hope you get my point through it.  In my opinion it is individual choices along a broad spectrum in a general line that will "save the planet" and in whole make the world a better place to live in.  Peace F.H.S.


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## SolarAndWood (Jun 20, 2010)

southernpine said:
			
		

> Sorry but I am a bit biased against Prius' and their owners.  Hope I don't offend anyone too much.



Nope, not at all.  The hybrid perfectly compliments the 10 year old 3/4 ton Chevy it parks next to.


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## webbie (Jun 21, 2010)

southernpine said:
			
		

> if i decide i want to bring out one of my loud gas guzzling 1950's iron behemoths for an occasional drive I don't want Mr. Prius giving me hell and I don't want to spend every spare daylight minute working in the communal garden while Mr. Prius touches up his manicure.



Well, this is probably why a commune will not work!

Sure, you can take a ride in your iron hulk...for fun, while making noise and spewing out 100x as much pollution than the gentle Prius.  But then, if I want to ride my especially loud Harley and puncture your eardrums, that is OK too. 

Living communally or even relative close (as in many urban centers) requires compromises......most of them are no big things, but they also should not be taken lightly. As an example, we could not own dogs on The Farm. I really love my dog and make sure she does not disturb anyone, yet it is clear that not everyone does that. Some folks think it is OK to leave a dog bark all day on their one acre plot.

Let's face it - the commune of the 60's (and before) is probably not the future of housing. More likely, a lot of us will live in urban areas, condos, apartments and smaller homes. However, all of them also require compromises. But I think the benefits often outweigh what you give up. For instance, it is more important for me to be close to stores, bank, post office, etc. (less energy and time wasted) than to have a large dog. It is more important for me to have a neighborhood that is clean and looks nice, than to be able to build up my outdoor junk pile to no end. 

In any case, I think in many ways we have a commune....many times over....here on the internet. Never before have so many been able to easily communicate and help each other so easily.  On the Farm we called that "The Group Head", which meant a combination between the combined intelligence of us all (as opposed to just one of us) along with an emotional intelligence that we might define as consensus or agreement. An example might be this - the Hearth.com community, by and large, came to the agreement - through experience and research - that perhaps we could do better than the old OWBs. We may have a few who don't buy into that, but many have come to the realization that if we ALL want to burn wood, we have to do it cleanly and efficiently using the best technology. Not really too much different than the loud gas guzzler.......

A good modern society has room for all. Even densely populated European countries have a mix of urban, small town and even rural living. If anything, we in the US need less sprawling burbs and more towns and urban centers.....the tighter people are packed, the less energy they use (RI and MA. us 1/3 or less the energy per capita as WY or TX).


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## Augmister (Jun 22, 2010)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> southernpine said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And I will see you my Honda Civic Hybred parked next to the 1/2 ton Ford Ranger!   Like minds......


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## Flatbedford (Jun 22, 2010)

Ford Focus between '70 F350 and '00 F250 here. 20K miles on the Focus at 30+mpg per year and about 5K for both trucks per year. I can still fell OK with myself.


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## free75degrees (Jun 23, 2010)

Now that we're talking cars - I swapped my pickup for a jetta tdi wagon with a trailer hitch and trailer.  I get around 40 mpg commuting and I can still haul over a half ton of firewood.  I love this car!


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 5, 2010)

iN THE GENERAL POPULATION WE ALREADY HAVE HALF THE PEOPLE WORKING TO SUPPORT THE OTHER HALF WHO DOES NOT CARE TO SUPPORT THEMSELVES, SO YOU COULD GET A SMALLER VERSION OF THAT IF YOUR NOT CAREFUL


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## jebatty (Jul 5, 2010)

I'm surprised that the number of working people is so high. Of the total US population of about 310 million, just about 1/2 are under 20 or 65 or more years old. Maybe we need to get the babies and old people back to work. Of the remaining 1/2 of the population, about 1/2 of these are lazy men, standing around doing nothing, and the other 1/2 are women also doing nothing because women don't do any real work.

Now, that leaves just you and me, and I'm tired, so you better get back to work.


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