# So why is Harman the only Manufacturer with a bottom feed design?



## Jonkman (Apr 30, 2016)

So I'm curious. I am pretty new to pellet stoves in the last year, and I hear the Harman vs. everybody else arguments, Harman is the best, blah blah blah. Now it may very well be that Harmans are the best, and they seem well built and the design of the bottom feed is interesting, vs dropping the pellets in like every other manufacturer does. So that begs the question, why is Harman the only one that does that type of pellet delivery and burning system? Why are 99% of all other pellet stoves the drop in a burn pot design? I would assume that the patent expired a long time ago for Harman's design, so others should be able to copy it or whatever. I mean, if it is better, why aren't other manufacturers doing so? I'm sure somebody here has an answer...


----------



## Tonyray (Apr 30, 2016)

Jonkman said:


> So I'm curious. I am pretty new to pellet stoves in the last year, and I hear the Harman vs. everybody else arguments, Harman is the best, blah blah blah. Now it may very well be that Harmans are the best, and they seem well built and the design of the bottom feed is interesting, vs dropping the pellets in like every other manufacturer does. So that begs the question, why is Harman the only one that does that type of pellet delivery and burning system? Why are 99% of all other pellet stoves the drop in a burn pot design? I would assume that the patent expired a long time ago for Harman's design, so others should be able to copy it or whatever. I mean, if it is better, why aren't other manufacturers doing so? I'm sure somebody here has an answer...


I really don't know but I assume there must be other stoves with similar setup..
btw: have a few friends who switched over to a Harman due to getting the dreaded Pellet dam alot..[Pellets stacking om top of each other then not feeding in.]
had to always buy short pellets so they wouldn't create the dam..


----------



## Jonkman (Apr 30, 2016)

Tonyray said:


> I really don't know but I assume there must be other stoves with similar setup..
> btw: have a few friends who switched over to a Harman due to getting the dreaded Pellet dam alot..[Pellets stacking om top of each other then not feeding in.]
> had to always buy short pellets so they wouldn't create the dam..



HI Tonyray,

I remember shopping for pellet stoves, and I am always researching them just because I'm weird that way, but I have yet to see another stove with the Harman style setup. I just figured it would be so more common than it is...it seems exclusive to Harman. I've never really heard of many people getting the pellet bridge like you say, but then again I am new. I bought a Quadrafire Castile last year, and used it all winter with zero issues.


----------



## Bioburner (Apr 30, 2016)

There was a stove design that used bottom feed but it went out of business. The issue was back burn into the hopper. Pellefire or some name close. I have one in my collection. Harman solved the issue by using two things. The shuttle on the bottom of the hopper and a vacuum in the burn chamber.


----------



## johneh (Apr 30, 2016)

The Old Bata vs VHS debate  
And the winner is?


----------



## heat seeker (Apr 30, 2016)

I believe that most Englander stoves are bottom feed.


----------



## Tonyray (Apr 30, 2016)

Jonkman said:


> HI Tonyray,
> 
> I remember shopping for pellet stoves, and I am always researching them just because I'm weird that way, but I have yet to see another stove with the Harman style setup. I just figured it would be so more common than it is...it seems exclusive to Harman. I've never really heard of many people getting the pellet bridge like you say, but then again I am new. I bought a Quadrafire Castile last year, and used it all winter with zero issues.


Hello Jonkman,
pellet Bridge is correct... couldn't remember that term... long [longish pellets deff will cause a bridge is some top feed/drop stoves...
which leaves some good pellets choices a washout for some.
I burned what I think we're the Longest pellets in the Universe.. O'Malley's.... heard a lot of crunch/snap for quite a while as the Harman Slide plate decapitated those pesky varmits..


----------



## Tonyray (Apr 30, 2016)

johneh said:


> The Old Bata vs VHS debate
> And the winner is?


Beta was actually the better format for the simple reason that the Tape route in the machine had far less twists/ turns in it's path producing a better quality picture.
[ case anyone was interested in Trivia]...


----------



## BrotherBart (Apr 30, 2016)

Bioburner said:


> There was a stove design that used bottom feed but it went out of business. The issue was back burn into the hopper. Pellefire or some name close. I have one in my collection. Harman solved the issue by using two things. The shuttle on the bottom of the hopper and a vacuum in the burn chamber.



What pellet stove doesn't have a vacuum in the burn chamber?


----------



## johneh (Apr 30, 2016)

Tonyray said:


> Beta was actually the better format for the simple reason that the Tape route in the machine had far less twists/ turns in it's path producing a better quality picture.
> [ case anyone was interested in Trivia]...


You must be old like me!


----------



## Tonyray (Apr 30, 2016)

johneh said:


> You must be old like me!


Boomer from the 60's......... FAR OUT MAN!!


----------



## Jonkman (Apr 30, 2016)

johneh said:


> The Old Bata vs VHS debate
> And the winner is?



Ah, but it's not that...I am not really concerned on this vs that, but rather let's say that one design is better, and everybody knows it...why don't more pellet stoves use the design (except new englanders I suppose as somebody just posted), I would think let's say that it would be at least 50/50 or 70/30... but no..it's like 2/98.


----------



## Tonyray (Apr 30, 2016)

Jonkman said:


> Ah, but it's not that...I am not really concerned on this vs that, but rather let's say that one design is better, and everybody knows it...why don't more pellet stoves use the design (except new englanders I suppose as somebody just posted), I would think let's say that it would be at least 50/50 or 70/30... but no..it's like 2/98.


I knew that...
you we're making a point using the vhs thingee as comparison...
but A good question about that design.


----------



## Jonkman (Apr 30, 2016)

Tonyray said:


> I knew that...
> you we're making a point using the vhs thingee as comparison...
> but A good question about that design.



That wasn't me that was Johneh who originally  made that reference I think...anywho, you had the pellet bridge issue, I may have been lucky with my first year's choice of pellets, as they were cut very tiny (like 1/4 inch). I did a few bags of some other brands that were around 3/4 to 1" and didn't have any issues...so I hope I will be OK if I buy 3-4 tons of one of those (probably Pro Pellets).

My next pellet stove will probably be a Harman, just because of what I hear and read about them, but mostly because I never had one before...just didn't work for our current house and the price was a good $1000+ more too...


----------



## Tonyray (Apr 30, 2016)

Jonkman said:


> That wasn't me that was Johneh who originally  made that reference I think...anywho, you had the pellet bridge issue, I may have been lucky with my first year's choice of pellets, as they were cut very tiny (like 1/4 inch). I did a few bags of some other brands that were around 3/4 to 1" and didn't have any issues...so I hope I will be OK if I buy 3-4 tons of one of those (probably Pro Pellets).
> 
> My next pellet stove will probably be a Harman, just because of what I hear and read about them, but mostly because I never had one before...just didn't work for our current house and the price was a good $1000+ more too...


One other good point about [free standing Harmans] is the mega Large Ashpans..holds .many many weeks of Ash...


----------



## papa bears stove (Apr 30, 2016)

I believe Enerzone, Osburn, Drolet and Englander all offer models with bottom feed technology as well.


----------



## Jonkman (Apr 30, 2016)

Tonyray said:


> One other good point about [free standing Harmans] is the mega Large Ashpans..holds .many many weeks of Ash...



I noticed that, that is really nice...HOWEVER the wife hates "stoves" that come into the room, maybe in the next house I can convince her to get one, I guess it would depend on the layout, etc. She really likes fireplaces or a fireplace with a nice looking insert, hence the Castile insert we have now.


----------



## Jonkman (Apr 30, 2016)

papa bears stove said:


> I believe Enerzone, Osburn, Drolet and Englander all offer models with bottom feed technology as well.



Well, that is good to know. I'll admit the only name in there I recognize is Englander.  Thing is, where I live there really isn't much for dealers, and if there are it's only Quadrafire and Harman, or TSC, Home Depot, etc, but they aren't a dealers...just sellers. And most don't even carry stock of anything.

So maybe I was wrong, but it still seems it's not as common I guess? I dunno....


----------



## 3650 (Apr 30, 2016)

I've never experienced pellet bridging in any of my other stoves. In fact they have all been pretty much worry free.  I've replaced a blower motor on two of them. I had an ignitor go out on one. I replaced gaskets. Pretty common maintenance on any pellet stove. The feed system on all of them have been no issue.
I would never buy another Harmless.  It's no great shakes.  I've had 5 stoves and I liked all the other stoves better then the Harmless.  I've had an Accentra. It doesn't throw all that much heat and chews through pellets. It has a speed bump that builds up on the rise of the burn pot that has to be cleaned daily, sometimes twice. It's got a tiny hopper. It gums up. I'd never buy another.


----------



## alternativeheat (May 1, 2016)

It takes about 15 seconds to scrape the speed bump off with a decent sized screw driver ( works better than the silly Harman tool which is good enough for scraping excess ash off the pot), you don't even shut the stove down. And depending on the pellets and burn rate you may or may not get the speed bump to begin with. 

I agree that at least the free standing Harman Accentra doesn't appear to be their hottest output offering. A P series Harman has a certain presence of heat about it by comparison, I think due to the radiating factor vs just blower. You won't find any cats sitting on top of a P61 when in operation even on low !

I do think some drop feed stoves are very efficient. I could use some heat in my basement and I wouldn't toss out the idea of a drop feeder for down down there. I wouldn't toss out the idea of a kerosene heater either if it weren't illegal in this state to put one in ( stupid IMO, I just need temp heat now and then down there to do some wood working, more government BS)..


----------



## Bioburner (May 1, 2016)

BrotherBart said:


> What pellet stove doesn't have a vacuum in the burn chamber?


Non that are manufactured today. I believe Earth stove is the only one that is popping up in use. Some larger furnaces and boilers are still using air forced pots with natural draft.


----------



## Tonyray (May 1, 2016)

3650 said:


> I've never experienced pellet bridging in any of my other stoves. In fact they have all been pretty much worry free.  I've replaced a blower motor on two of them. I had an ignitor go out on one. I replaced gaskets. Pretty common maintenance on any pellet stove. The feed system on all of them have been no issue.
> I would never buy another Harmless.  It's no great shakes.  I've had 5 stoves and I liked all the other stoves better then the Harmless.  I've had an Accentra. It doesn't throw all that much heat and chews through pellets. It has a speed bump that builds up on the rise of the burn pot that has to be cleaned daily, sometimes twice. It's got a tiny hopper. It gums up. I'd never buy another.


Being a free standing Harman owner, I wouldn't want a free standing myself... too small of an ash pan for 1..


----------



## railfanron (May 1, 2016)

Hmm. I've had a Harman for 3 years now and all I can say is that it runs and shuts down when it's supposed to on a programmable thermostat. Because my wife is recovering from a very bad accident I haven't put the time into cleaning and upkeep that I would like to. The P43 doesn't seem to mind running Pro Pellets. I have let it run on automatic all winter and it just burns perfectly without as much as opening the door for anything as much as a week at a time (not even to clean the burnpot). I clean it and dump the ash once a month. I burned 3 tons this year. It's five times the stove that my neighbor has. To each his own I guess.
Ron


----------



## Wessty (May 1, 2016)

Drolet Eco-65 is a bottom feeder.


----------



## Tonyray (May 1, 2016)

Tonyray said:


> Being a free standing Harman owner, I wouldn't want a free standing myself... too small of an ash pan for 1..[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> railfanron said:
> ...


----------



## Tonyray (May 1, 2016)

railfanron said:


> Hmm. I've had a Harman for 3 years now and all I can say is that it runs and shuts down when it's supposed to on a programmable thermostat. Because my wife is recovering from a very bad accident I haven't put the time into cleaning and upkeep that I would like to. The P43 doesn't seem to mind running Pro Pellets. I have let it run on automatic all winter and it just burns perfectly without as much as opening the door for anything as much as a week at a time (not even to clean the burnpot). I clean it and dump the ash once a month. I burned 3 tons this year. It's five times the stove that my neighbor has. To each his own I guess.
> Ron


OOPS That was wrong.....Meant to say," Wouldn't have an INSERT" . Too small of an Ashpan..... I have a P61A


----------



## Mark_ms (May 2, 2016)

I believe Magnum stoves feed from the bottom too


----------



## Bioburner (May 2, 2016)

Mark_ms said:


> I believe Magnum stoves feed from the bottom too


No they don't, at least their Flagship model the original corn burning stove line the Countryside


----------



## Lake Girl (May 2, 2016)

papa bears stove said:


> I believe Enerzone, Osburn, Drolet and Englander all offer models with bottom feed technology as well.


Enerzone & Osburn are both produced by SBI...


----------



## LuvMyPellets (May 2, 2016)

Many more bottom feeders are available than your realize. The popular Lopi AGP being one of them as well as quite a few brands I call boutique as they are not well known and not sold in many stores.


----------



## canuck_22 (May 2, 2016)

Lopi also has a bottom feeder, the AGP


----------



## Tonyray (May 2, 2016)

So just for gits and shiggles, what [if any] advantages are there to a Top feeder?


----------



## LuvMyPellets (May 2, 2016)

And to kind of answer the original question. The first 5yrs I put up with the Afton Bay and I mean put up with. Exhaust fan replaced 3 times. Minimum once a week fairly major cleaning. Glass filthy after one day burning. I know a lot of others own them on this forum and no disrespect but I think they are a smutpot. And for the Harman. Just finished my 3rd winter. It used to grate on my nerves the continual bragging from the Harman owners. You know "the fanboys". Well guess what I guess I am one of them now. The first thing I noticed was the flame seemed to be very different. I went a week and the glass has one spot on it in the upper corner. I started cleaning once a week and found out I was wasting my time and now I clean around once a month. Any time it shuts off I scrape the pot and thats it. One thing I noticed was interesting. My ignitor quit also on the Afton Bay and I said heck let me see if a propane torch will light the pellets and then just shut the door. Nope, wouldn't work. Just for the heck of it I tried it on the P61A. Yep hold it on there for about 4-10 sec till one or two glow and shut the door and it fires right up. That led me to the belief that the Harman draft is set up much better to draw the air over and around the pellets and that is the simple reason it burns so well.


----------



## papa bears stove (May 3, 2016)

Yes Enerzone, Osburn and Drolet are all manufactured by SBI and all have bottome feed technology available.


----------



## alternativeheat (May 3, 2016)

LuvMyPellets said:


> Just for the heck of it I tried it on the P61A.



Yeah, the P series Harmans are work horses, for sure the P61 is. And sometimes I think you could dump leaves and uncompressed hay in the hopper and still burn and make heat LOL. I've literally run decomposing pellets through mine , just dumped them in the mix, swollen and breaking down. Never saw a change in flame. I wouldn't get carried away in doing that but it's nice to know it burns with that kind of stability.


----------



## alternativeheat (May 3, 2016)

Tonyray said:


> So just for gits and shiggles, what [if any] advantages are there to a Top feeder?


Maybe ( yes I said "maybe", as in also maybe not) finer pellet drop control, Tony .


----------



## Peterfield (May 3, 2016)

Tonyray said:


> So just for gits and shiggles, what [if any] advantages are there to a Top feeder?


Gravity.


----------



## Jonkman (May 3, 2016)

Tonyray said:


> So just for gits and shiggles, what [if any] advantages are there to a Top feeder?



Good question, I don't know. Anybody?


----------



## Jonkman (May 3, 2016)

LuvMyPellets said:


> Many more bottom feeders are available than your realize. The popular Lopi AGP being one of them as well as quite a few brands I call boutique as they are not well known and not sold in many stores.



Ok. so there are more than I realize out there for bottom feeders (both in Pellet stoves and in the general population), but  you are kind of proving my point, if the "other" bottom feed designs out there are boutique brands or not well known, they "almost" might as well not exist to the average consumer. It's not until you are into pellet stoves for a few years that you may even know those brands exist.  I would liken it to Mac and PC (Harman and Quadrafire "and other top feeds") that most people think is all that is out there... and then a computer guy comes along and says don't forget about Linux! (boutique brands other than Harman that have bottom feed). Basically all I am saying is that if I walked into a Pellet Stove superstore, 98% of the "non-harmans" would be top feed, and that puzzles me (OK, maybe 97%).


----------



## slls (May 3, 2016)

Bottom feeders old tech.


----------



## alternativeheat (May 3, 2016)

slls said:


> Bottom feeders old tech.


So is the internal combustion engine.


----------



## Tim_M (May 3, 2016)

Top feeders can be a bit more interesting to watch, with the random dropping of pellets, shower of sparks and gentle clinking sound. That's the only advantage I can think of.


----------



## 3650 (May 4, 2016)

Fewer moving parts...


----------



## heat seeker (May 4, 2016)

Top feeder has one auger with motor. Bottom feeder have two augers, two motors.


----------



## alternativeheat (May 4, 2016)

heat seeker said:


> Top feeder has one auger with motor. Bottom feeder have two augers, two motors.


They do ? My Harman bottom feeder has one auger.


----------



## Tonyray (May 4, 2016)

alternativeheat said:


> They do ? My Harman bottom feeder has one auger.


Actually 2 IF you count yours/mine...


----------



## heat seeker (May 4, 2016)

alternativeheat said:


> They do ? My Harman bottom feeder has one auger.


Live and learn.


----------



## lagger (May 16, 2016)

LuvMyPellets said:


> Many more bottom feeders are available than your realize. The popular Lopi AGP being one of them as well as quite a few brands I call boutique as they are not well known and not sold in many stores.


indeed .. I have the agp insert and it is a bottom feeder  ... as well as a reliable stove


----------



## smwilliamson (May 24, 2016)

Jonkman said:


> So I'm curious. I am pretty new to pellet stoves in the last year, and I hear the Harman vs. everybody else arguments, Harman is the best, blah blah blah. Now it may very well be that Harmans are the best, and they seem well built and the design of the bottom feed is interesting, vs dropping the pellets in like every other manufacturer does. So that begs the question, why is Harman the only one that does that type of pellet delivery and burning system? Why are 99% of all other pellet stoves the drop in a burn pot design? I would assume that the patent expired a long time ago for Harman's design, so others should be able to copy it or whatever. I mean, if it is better, why aren't other manufacturers doing so? I'm sure somebody here has an answer...


Its not a bottom feed, it's a horizontal feed. There are no more bottom feed stoves being made.


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Jun 1, 2016)

heat seeker said:


> I believe that most Englander stoves are bottom feed.


yes, we do produce  a few models that are bottom feed. or "horizontal feed" seems like years ago there was at least one stove that pushed fuel up into the pot from underneath, so I guess that would be a true "bottom feed"
ours push the fuel directly into the back of the pot instead of dropping it in from above


----------

