# Social Security



## velvetfoot (May 2, 2014)

I'm going to be 62 in two weeks.  I'm leaning towards applying for Social Security.  I figure a bird in the hand, live while the living's good, who knows if SS will continue, etc.  Any advice?


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## BrotherBart (May 2, 2014)

Social Security continuing isn't even on the issues list. What is, is the 25% discount from taking it early. If you have resources to hang on till 67 or better yet 70 you get a lot more out of the system. You have to think about how long you are going to live, not how long SS will live. Something you are going to start thinking about much more than you ever believe you will.

Dad said that when SS was enacted in 1935 it wouldn't still be around when he retired. Wrong. He died at age 86 and it was still there.


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## velvetfoot (May 3, 2014)

So, I've read the break even point is 78.  Here's hoping my quality of life is good enough to enjoy those extra bucks.


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## woodgeek (May 3, 2014)

A lot I've read says the opposite.  The earlier you start, the smaller the payment (forever).  If you are planning on living a while, and you are not hurting for cash now, you should hold off.  What if you live to 90?  100?  Something wipes out your (assumed) nest-egg? Think about how long that is!

As it is now you are choosing between two different contracts with the US govt (not IMO a bad or unreliable contract partner), and one of them will pay a lot more in 20-30 years and you might certainly care then.

IIRC the SS website will generate all the scenarios for you to compare.


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## webbie (May 3, 2014)

I think I'll compromise and take it at 66 or so. You can't win the game of betting against yourself, so I will eat, drink and be merry.


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## begreen (May 3, 2014)

I'm waiting until I am 66, Full Retirement Age. My wife may wait longer. Every year is like 8% in the bank. It's hard to get guaranteed returns like this on most other investments.


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## BrotherBart (May 3, 2014)

Literally everybody in the line on both sides has rolled a seven at 86 or 88. And none of them smoked and/or drank. So I started it at 62. On my wife's side the women have buried more husbands than a funeral home, so I should have held off on hers but didn't.

Heck with a high paying second career as a h.c. moderator I am set for life.


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## velvetfoot (May 3, 2014)

begreen said:


> Every year is like 8% in the bank. It's hard to get guaranteed returns like this on most other investments.


Not sure about that.  You're collecting, albeit less, for 62-66.  So, and I'm not sure about this, the break even point is something like 78.  And that's not accounting for the possibility of investing the disbursements for those 4 years.


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## BrotherBart (May 3, 2014)

Break even on mine was 11 years.


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## woodgeek (May 3, 2014)

Look yourself up in the actuarial tables....  http://www.lifeexpectancycalculators.com/actuarial-life-tables.html

At 62, your mean life expectancy is 81.4. (since you are male)


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## begreen (May 3, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Not sure about that.  You're collecting, albeit less, for 62-66.  So, and I'm not sure about this, the break even point is something like 78.  And that's not accounting for the possibility of investing the disbursements for those 4 years.



You have to make the call depending on your overall financial situation. We don't need the funds right away, so I am waiting until October. You "may" be able to make it up by investing, but not if you need the money or if there is a sharp market reversal. At this stage of life I prefer a bit more predictability and less gambling on stocks, particularly in the current overheated market.


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## fossil (May 3, 2014)

No matter how you slice up this question, the answer is always going to be, "It depends".  Every individual's situation is unique. It's an equation with too many unknown variables to expect you're going to find a simple closed-form solution.  I could tell you about my thinking, research, and decision...and it really wouldn't mean squat for you.  Your whole "life picture" is not the same as mine.  Rick

BTW...speaking of actuarial tables...my wife (always in apparently excellent health) applied for SS (because of our own unique set of circumstances) at age 62, as did I.  She received exactly _one_ benefit check before she quite unexpectedly died of cancer.  You just never know.


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## Lake Girl (May 3, 2014)

Rick, sorry to hear about the loss of your wife ... I was trying to think of how to tactfully bring up the fact that actuarial tables are great in theory but no reflection of your personal health, family history.  My MIL died at age 56, one year after she stopped working; FIL had already retired (age & length of service formula).  They got a trip to Toronto to check on Grandma C (FILs mother) and a trip to Mexico.  Grandma C lived to 103 and had lost 2 daughters and her daughter in law....


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## Ashful (May 3, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> IIRC the SS website will generate all the scenarios for you to compare.


Off-topic King here again, but I can't let this one go.  What are you doing looking at the SS website, woodgeek?  I mean, I had in my head you were in your 30's...


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## fossil (May 3, 2014)

Maybe he's smarter than a whole lot of other people.  If I hadn't started thinking about and planning for my daughter's education when she was about 3 years old, she'd still be saddled with student debt now at age 30.  I took care of all that  (and lots of other things) starting long ago by looking ahead, planning, and acting.


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## Ashful (May 4, 2014)

Are you lecturing me on finance, fossil?


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## fossil (May 4, 2014)

Joful said:


> Are you lecturing me on finance, fossil?



Absolutely not, I'm simply responding to your post.  Why would you be surprised at a 30-something looking ahead to the future?  I'm sure glad I was one of those who did.


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## woodgeek (May 4, 2014)

mid-40s is a perfectly reasonable time to give a little thought to long term financial planning, esp with kids approaching college age.  

sorry for your loss Rick.


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## veemaxx (May 4, 2014)

Velvetfoot, I'm in the same boat you are in, I turn 62 this month too.  I'm taking the early SS because for me time is much more valuable than money.  I am lucky enough to have saved enough through a company pension and IRAs to fully fund a decent retirement so the SS is just some icing on the cake.  There used to be a pay-back provision with SS where you could start drawing at 62 then at 66 pay back what you have withdrawn and start drawing what you would have gotten if you had waited till 66.  The advantage being you get to keep the interest earned off of 4 years of SS payment.  I think this little loophole got plugged recently though.  If you need the SS to live then waiting might be the thing to do, if it is just extra cash which is what it was intended to be as a suppliment then you could alway invest it for 4 years and be way ahead of someone who waits till 66.  Just my thoughts.


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## Ashful (May 4, 2014)

Oh, definitely!  I was lucky to have a mother who hounded me on the principles of compounding interest, so I maxed out my Roth IRA contributions every year from age 18.  In my 20's, that meant driving old broken cars, and not going out as much as my friends, but I'm glad for it now.  I also contribute the max allowable limit to my 401k every year, and have two separate wealth management accounts (one managed, one DIY), for the balance.  Paid my first house off at age 35, second house will be paid by age 52.

My plan:  have so much squirreled away that Soc Sec is irrelevant.


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## smokedragon (May 4, 2014)

I think it goes back to what BB said.......look at family history, and a few other things.  This is a great predictor of life expectancy.  If you feel like past 80 is living on borrowed time, why wait till 68 to start drawing.

My wife's grandfather (on her mom's side) was still living alone and caring for himself and his 2 bedroom house (vacuuming, cooking, etc) at 98.  Grandpa on her dad's side was doing the same at 91, but fell and broke his hip.  Men in her family have always lived well into their 90's......this is a case for taking it late.  

On my side of the family, the men have died as young as 60 and the eldest I can recall is 81.  My decision was made 10 years ago based on that.......I will take mine as soon as I am eligible because the life expectancy for men in my family is short (regardless of how healthy they are).


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## BrotherBart (May 4, 2014)

Like I told the doc last time I was there. Genes can tell me more than she ever can. Ain't no pills to fix them yet.


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## BrotherBart (May 4, 2014)

Joful said:


> Off-topic King here again, but I can't let this one go.  What are you doing looking at the SS website, woodgeek?  I mean, I had in my head you were in your 30's...



Timely on this topic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/your-money/a-path-to-retirement-for-those-far-from-it.html


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## begreen (May 4, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Like I told the doc last time I was there. Genes can tell me more than she ever can. Ain't no pills to fix them yet.


Genes are only part of the picture. Anomalies can favor one sex, affect just part of the siblings or even skip a generation or two. Lifestyle plays into it too.


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## BrotherBart (May 4, 2014)

begreen said:


> Lifestyle plays into it too.



Which is where I am screwed.


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## BrotherBart (May 4, 2014)

And then there is:

http://portlandtribune.com/pt/9-news/219371-80052-naked-man-doing-push-ups-killed-in-road


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## begreen (May 4, 2014)

Dad had several heart attacks before the last one killed him at age 72. Smoking didn't help him. If this had happened these days he would have had bypass surgery, hopefully quit smoking and lived a lot longer. Mom had a heart attack at age 62, quit smoking, triple bypass surgery at 83 and lived until 101.


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## begreen (May 4, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> And then there is:
> 
> http://portlandtribune.com/pt/9-news/219371-80052-naked-man-doing-push-ups-killed-in-road



I read that a short while ago. Choose your gym carefully.


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## smokedragon (May 4, 2014)

begreen said:


> Lifestyle plays into it too.


I agree with that......if the men in your family all live to 90+ but are fit, and you have high blood pressure and cholesterol, you may not be making that same trek.

But I do think family history (especially if you look at grandfathers, father, uncles, etc) really gives you a good general picture.  Especially if you are in similar health to them.


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## begreen (May 4, 2014)

Lifestyle and living gets in the way too often in our family. Dad was a smoker died at 72. I don't smoke. His father died at 40, but I suspect it was from lead poisoning. He was a mine assayer for the Gugenheim family. His father lived to 84 and that was in the 1800s.


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## BrotherBart (May 4, 2014)

I have no desire to live to 101. In my experience over the last 20 years with relatives I ain't too fond of the idea of 88 either.


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## velvetfoot (May 5, 2014)




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## Ashful (May 5, 2014)

smokedragon said:


> But I do think family history (especially if you look at grandfathers, father, uncles, etc) really gives you a good general picture.  Especially if you are in similar health to them.




My brother, father, grandfather, and great grandfather all passed away within a few short years, three of the four from cancer.  Ages 26, 48, 74, 95.  What's that mean for me?


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## ironpony (May 5, 2014)

Personally I am planning on ASAP, drawing at 62 and hoping to enjoy some of it. My FIL retired at 62 died at 63, cancer. My Dad retired at 60, is 87 now and healthy. Mom, brother, uncle and several cousins, never made it. There are no guarantees in life, my plan is to retire early and enjoy everyday. I do not need all the gadgets and new stuff, so with everything paid for I do not need much to ENJOY my life style. This next year at 54 I am relocating to St Croix with minimal taxes, low property taxes, no heating or cooling, 77-87 year round and everything paid for. Probably work part time some where for my sanity. Hopefully live another 30 years, maybe not.


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## ironpony (May 5, 2014)

Joful said:


> My brother, father, grandfather, and great grandfather all passed away within a few short years, three of the four from cancer.  Ages 26, 48, 74, 95.  What's that mean for me?


 

It means the "big guy" has not picked your number yet and hopefully won't for many years. My Dad's Dad died at 46, my Dad is now 87 and his goal is 92, so he will double his fathers age. I figure if I use the same theory and double my Dads I will be 192.


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## Bobbin (May 5, 2014)

The good man can begin collecting in May.  I (the trophy bride) have to wait another 12 yrs. for "full" benefits.  We've made the choice to wait.  He's the major bread-winner right now (first year for my new business) and has access to benefits.  That he is wiling to "suck it up" so I can get my own gig up and running is like hitting the lottery. 

I will wait as long as possible to begin collecting.  A function of meagre savings early on, meagre employer matched savings, and the (perhaps naïve) hope that continued savings and postponement of SS collection will make a difference. 

No guarantee, as Rick has pointed out.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Im cashin in at 62 while im still healthy enough to enjoy it. If i make it into my 70s these bum knees will probably have me housebound anyways.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

ironpony said:


> with everything paid for I do not need much to ENJOY my life style. This next year at 54 I am relocating to St Croix with minimal taxes, low property taxes, no heating or cooling, 77-87 year round and everything paid for. Probably work part time some where for my sanity. Hopefully live another 30 years, maybe not.


WHy is it just when i think i have it all figured out, someone comes along with a better plan. Sounds like heaven Iron pony.


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## velvetfoot (May 5, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Sounds like heaven Iron pony.


Amen on that.


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## Ashful (May 5, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> WHy is it just when i think i have it all figured out, someone comes along with a better plan. Sounds like heaven Iron pony.


I dunno about that.  77-78 year-round?  He's going to miss us.


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## wenger7446 (May 5, 2014)

Joful said:


> Oh, definitely!  I was lucky to have a mother who hounded me on the principles of compounding interest, so I maxed out my Roth IRA contributions every year from age 18.  In my 20's, that meant driving old broken cars, and not going out as much as my friends, but I'm glad for it now.  I also contribute the max allowable limit to my 401k every year, and have two separate wealth management accounts (one managed, one DIY), for the balance.  Paid my first house off at age 35, second house will be paid by age 52.
> 
> My plan:  have so much squirreled away that Soc Sec is irrelevant.




You and me. I too was pushed by my mother to max out a Roth IRA from the age of 15. It now impressive to see the compounding interest now.


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## Lake Girl (May 6, 2014)

Joful said:


> My brother, father, grandfather, and great grandfather all passed away within a few short years, three of the four from cancer.  Ages 26, 48, 74, 95.  What's that mean for me?



It's a crapshoot?  I'd be shooting for genetics like those grandparents 

Dementia is a concern from my Dad's family (both he and his mother).  This bit of research is interesting - might explain my daughter's interest in vampires
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...of-ageing-cure-alzheimers-disease-scientists/


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## jharkin (May 6, 2014)

What I want to know ... Joful and wenger.... Is how you get a high school job that pays enough to max a Roth Especially if you need to finance a car to get to said job....


I wish my parents had been, or are, better with finances... but they where not. I developed a good appreciation for hard work and saving, but did it the hard way - paying my own way in college through scholarships and a lot of loans (still a few years to go), learning from their mistakes,  helping out other family members straighten out finances and teaching my wife (who never though about saving till she met me).   So in spite of best intentions I got a slow start on my 401k in my 20s and didn't really get going serious on extras like the Roth till my 30s.  If I'm lucky I hope to finally be in a position to max contributions to all of them at 40.

If I had the jump start like you guys Id be on my way to retiring at 50 i think... oh well... or maybe not. I don't think I could take just sitting around for decades, wife and I have a dream to someday quit the rat race and own a working farm... maybe we just would have been able to do that sooner.


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## Ashful (May 6, 2014)

jharkin said:


> What I want to know ... Joful and wenger.... Is how you get a high school job that pays enough to max a Roth Especially if you need to finance a car to get to said job...


Max limit back then was $2k, and I worked 40 hr per week all summer, and still 24 hr/wk all school year.  I think I was making about $6/hr, so I grossed about $9k /year.

I was responsible for insurance, gas, and all maintenance, but mom supplied us each with a first cheap used car.


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## ironpony (May 6, 2014)

Joful said:


> I dunno about that.  77-78 year-round?  He's going to miss us.


 

I will be around I like the company here more than the wood burning.  I will post pics of the 77 degree days sitting on the beach or scuba diving in December.
The water will be a frigid 79 then......and in case you missed it in the other thread this is the view from the back patio. low tide is the property line.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 6, 2014)

Nothing wrong with burning a night fire on the beach.  I see some driftwood in that pic.


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## Ashful (May 6, 2014)

ironpony said:


> I will post pics of the 77 degree days sitting on the beach or scuba diving in December.


If you keep doing that, I might start to hate you, just a little.


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## Lake Girl (May 6, 2014)

ironpony said:


> I will be around I like the company here more than the wood burning.  I will post pics of the 77 degree days sitting on the beach or scuba diving in December.
> The water will be a frigid 79 then......and in case you missed it in the other thread this is the view from the back patio. low tide is the property line.



My question is:  Are there children and grandchildren who will be joining you on that beach?  

We likely could have joined you on that beach but money got diverted to enlarging house, education plans and proportional bills associated with kids.  Kids laugh at us and say they don't feel sorry for us ... our choice to have them.  Guess they are right for once


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## ironpony (May 6, 2014)

Lake Girl said:


> My question is:  Are there children and grandchildren who will be joining you on that beach?
> 
> We likely could have joined you on that beach but money got diverted to enlarging house, education plans and proportional bills associated with kids.  Kids laugh at us and say they don't feel sorry for us ... our choice to have them.  Guess they are right for once





3 children 27, 30 32. 3 grandchildren 13, 5,5.


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## DBNH22 (May 9, 2014)

fossil said:


> Maybe he's smarter than a whole lot of other people.  If I hadn't started thinking about and planning for my daughter's education when she was about 3 years old, she'd still be saddled with student debt now at age 30.  I took care of all that  (and lots of other things) starting long ago by looking ahead, planning, and acting.




You can also feel confident in the fact that she will never see a dime of social security.


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## woodgeek (May 9, 2014)

Huh?  At current revenue and spending rates SS is 'solvent' for ~20 years. And by then the boomers will be parting this mortal coil in large numbers, and the Millenials (more numerous than the boomers) will be hitting prime earning years...no real problems that can't be fixed by tweaks.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 9, 2014)

About the worst thing that can happen to SS is benefits get reduced. Govt claims if nothing done they can still pay 75% of current benefits for decades to come. A worse problem is the Govt is now borrowing money to pay back the SS trust fund all the IOUs that it has been raiding all these years. How long can that go on? I guess until the printing press breaks down.


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## Bobbin (May 9, 2014)

How about everyone starts paying into the system with no "pass" at some arbitrarily set earnings level? what a concept.   

I don't have kids but I'm embarrassed at the amount of student debt we've heaped onto their shoulders (and their parents) while the wealthiest never feel a twinge.  My loans were are at 9.5%, but the rules have changed in the years hence.


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## Grisu (May 9, 2014)

Dana B said:


> You can also feel confident in the fact that she will never see a dime of social security.



Are you anticipating that the Tea Party nutbolts will become the majority party in future elections?


Seasoned Oak said:


> About the worst thing that can happen to SS is benefits get reduced. Govt claims if nothing done they can still pay 75% of current benefits for decades to come. A worse problem is the Govt is now borrowing money to pay back the SS trust fund all the IOUs that it has been raiding all these years. How long can that go on? I guess until the printing press breaks down.



Endlessly. We can generate unlimited amounts of money. The question is if we can produce the goods and services the future retirees would like to buy with that money. The funny thing is to increase future production you need to actually *spend* money. It is called investing in the future.


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## DBNH22 (May 9, 2014)

Grisu said:


> Are you anticipating that the Tea Party nutbolts will become the majority party in future elections?




Of course not, it's much more likely that the koolaid drinking sheep will watch idly as the fascists from both major political parties that currently control everything run this country completely into the ground.


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## BrotherBart (May 9, 2014)

Well that kills this one deader than hell.

Knock off politics folks. Lots of sights for that blather.

CLOSED.


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