# Am I crazy for wanting a "Classic" woodstove?



## bigbear (Nov 19, 2013)

I currently have a 4 year old Harman TL 300 in my house that I do not like.  It does not put out heat like I am accustomed to with other woodstoves.  My dealer actually had to remove my stove today to repair it.  I offered to sell it back to him and cut my losses and move on to another stove.  We have an old Schrader in our hunting camp that heats like nobody's business.  A few of the guys I work with have old Kodiaks and Alaskas.  If I can dump this harman am I nuts for wanting a no bells, no catalytic this, no that, no whistles, crap that can just go wrong.  I need heat and don't care how I get it.


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## jreed (Nov 19, 2013)

I dont think you are crazy...in fact Im inching your way as well.  I bought a new stove to replace my old Alaska and cant get the heat I need either.


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## Beetle-Kill (Nov 19, 2013)

It's an adjustment, and I sympathize. My Blaze King is great for 6 out of the 8 months I burn. BUT,..those two months when it's really cold, I still miss that old Timberline. That thing put out some heat.
Try a big radiant heater- NC-30 comes to mind.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 19, 2013)

jreed has a 30. And a basement install heating problem.

Crank it up jreed. It ain't gonna split down the middle.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 19, 2013)

A footnote. Folks that have been burning in the old stoves without a door glass always get nervous rocking an EPA stove with a view of the fire. Think they are overfiring, think they are wasting wood with all of that flame etc. Nothing going on in front of your face that wasn't going on in that old stove that you couldn't see when it was putting out the same heat. And all of those flames are stuff that was going up the pipe un-burned before.


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## oldspark (Nov 20, 2013)

This will probably get a reaction out of the mods (they hate hearing about my old stove) but my old stove can kick my summit's ass for heat, now that I am running it in the shop I know why I like it so well, heats up very quickly and puts out a ton of heat, so with good burning practices and a fairly tight house the old stoves (some of them) work great.
I am sure it uses more wood but a big block chevy uses more gas then a small block chevy.


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## jreed (Nov 20, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> jreed has a 30. And a basement install heating problem.
> 
> Crank it up jreed. It ain't gonna split down the middle.



LOL!  If I could get it cranked I would   Getting myself a half dozen old pallets that Im going to mix in...hopefully that does the trick.  I cant seem to get the thing consistently over 250*...Im sure it's my wood.


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## Iembalm4aLiving (Nov 20, 2013)

I think you're crazy.  With good wood they work great!


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## oldspark (Nov 20, 2013)

jreed said:


> LOL!  If I could get it cranked I would   Getting myself a half dozen old pallets that Im going to mix in...hopefully that does the trick.  I cant seem to get the thing consistently over 250*...Im sure it's my wood.


 
250 stove top? Thats no good, I can get the summit up to 700 or so, its not your stove.


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## jreed (Nov 20, 2013)

On ocassion I can get it up to 400 but rarely and it doesnt last.

But, I can sympathize with bigbear...my old stove cranked the heat out.  Im sure this on will do as well once I get it and my wood dialed in.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 20, 2013)

Give it air and burn it like the old one.


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## tfdchief (Nov 20, 2013)

No more crazy than I am.  I have had my Buck for over 30 years and won't part with it until it dies.  I have another stove that is EPA rated and I will not dispute technology.  It is amazing.  The old stove is quicker to heat and will out heat the new stove, and does not use more wood than the new stove.

That said, hang in there, maybe you will figure the thing out and get it rockin.  This forum can help you do that.  The new stoves can be great heaters, use less wood, and put out far less emissions.


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## oldspark (Nov 21, 2013)

"The old stove is quicker to heat and will out heat the new stove, and does not use more wood than the new stove"
Just for fun over the holidays I am going to do a comparrision between my 2 stoves, start with the same amount and type of wood and keep track of the temperatures (both stove top and stack) and how long the fires last.


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## vasten (Dec 14, 2013)

I just came across your post because I am researching a new stove.  I had a small regency wood stove that I heated with for yrs.  I then decided I wanted a large stove and found a magnolia stove looks beautiful ... this is my second season with it and last night my son looked at me and asked if we could put the old 1.3 cu ft regency stove back in because it heated better.  

So to answer your question I don't think you are nuts I am looking at getting out of epa stoves and going to fisher or timberline
 I will start my own post here as well.


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## daleeper (Dec 14, 2013)

I have a classic earth stove, and it heated well, but burned a lot of wood in the process, and filled the chimney with creosote.  I will admit that the wood burned through it was not as dry as it should have been, so maybe not fair, but there is no way I would go back to that old stove.  No glass to see the fire, not as much air control, and made the room it was in too hot.  My cousin is using that stove, and the dining room it is in is extremely hot so that the back rooms will have at least a bit of heat.

I would not call anyone crazy for going back to an old stove, but if I had a good epa stove that was not heating the way it should, I would be trying everything possible to make it work properly before going back to a classic stove.


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## oldspark (Dec 14, 2013)

daleeper said:


> I have a classic earth stove, and it heated well, but burned a lot of wood in the process, and filled the chimney with creosote. I will admit that the wood burned through it was not as dry as it should have been, so maybe not fair


No its not really fair and you see it mentioned on here many times, good dry wood and not smoldering the fire by keeping track of flue temps and you will have little creosote.
My old stove heated my house well below 0, the new one does not, smaller stove though.


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## vasten (Jan 20, 2014)

Well I took the plunge I accepted an offer a guy extended to me last yr to try out his Vermont castings vigilant.  This guy bought itbrand new from the factory in 79-80... and still looks new.  So with that being said.

I installed it necking it down from 8 in oval to 6 in round.  I can burn it with the doors open in fireplace mode.  I can load it with zero smoke roll out.  Where my magnolia would set off the smokealarm daily.  
So using the same wood same burning style  I am getting 7-800 griddle temps and 600 max flue temps.  I have stopped using the space heater in my bedroom and the kerosene heater in the adjacent room.  The stove can hold a true overnight burn where I come down and still have splits still burning in the morning

When I pulled the old epa stove out I found the chimney to have at least a half in of creosote on the pipe it was so bad the brush got stuck in the pipe when I tried to clean it.  Even though the glass was clean the flue temps couldn't stay hot enough to keep creosote from forming.

So in a nut shell I am very happy with my old non spa smoke dragon and have already put my epa stove up for sale on craigslist

I don't worry about creosote because the flue


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## begreen (Jan 20, 2014)

You're a lucky man to find a low mileage Vigilant. This was a revolutionary stove in its day. With a true secondary burn system it is not exactly a smoke dragon. Keep burning dry wood though or watch the flue for creosote, particularly in milder weather when you have it dialed back.


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## vasten (Jan 20, 2014)

It is funny when I was researching this stove I was told it wasa ddangerous smoke dragon.  And I find it to be the opposite with the ability to hold higher flue temps and the veritcle horizontal options plus the thermostatic controlled damper I really like.  Because unlike a conventional stove that you have to keep watching ..as the stove heats up it closes and opens as it cools to give you a more consistent burn... so if this is unsafe by today's standards I'll take it... again I am amazed by the technology that went into this stove 30 plus yrs ago


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## begreen (Jan 20, 2014)

Not sure where the comparison to modern stoves is coming from. I load our modern EPA stove and watch it for 15-30 minutes and then don't touch it again for 6-8 hrs. This is pretty typical for a current 2-3 cu ft stove. There are some dogs out there, but they are few and die and smaller in sales these days. That said thermostatic dampers are nice. They are on a few new stoves but not enough. I'd like to see this option on a lot more stoves.


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## fossil (Jan 20, 2014)

vasten said:


> ...so if this is unsafe by today's standards I'll take it...



EPA standards have nothing to do with safety.


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## vasten (Jan 20, 2014)

OK I should clarify that I am not referring to not " actual" safety but perceived safety of these older stoves.  I am finding they heat really well and are more impressive than the epa stoves I have encountered.


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## begreen (Jan 20, 2014)

I had the brother of that stove, the Resolute and never considered it to be a safety issue when correctly installed. VC was a leader in stove design back then. They were premium priced and considered the best back in the late 70s for good reason. Their integrity was never questioned. Safety comes with correctly installing and operating a well made stove. It's the same story today as it was when the Vigilant was made.


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## vasten (Jan 20, 2014)

I agree I think the innovations he put into this stove was far a head of its time.  And it works seems to be as safe as any other stove. Sorry to have hijacked the thread but topic was new vs old


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## valley ranch (Feb 15, 2014)

Interesting thread. Sounds like we have a consensus here. There are some great well made stoves out there to be had, stoves that have been around for years. You have to find the right one, and one large enough for your needs.

Richard


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## defiant3 (Feb 16, 2014)

One thing that I've observed and heard a lot from other woodburners is that newer stoves tend to be far more fussy about dry wood.  I can run whatever I have in my old Defiant by mixing dry with not-so-dry.  But my Pacific Energy Vista won't tolerate that nearly so well.  Dry wood burns, other wood really doesn't want to. So I'm wondering if we're comparing apples to apples here? Obviously I'm an older stove fan, but in fairness it should be noted that there's more to it than EPA or non-EPA.  Newer stoves seem to require a stronger draft than many older ones too, so that can make it seem like the stove is the culprit, when it may not be.  Just a few thoughts...


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## bholler (Feb 16, 2014)

Most of our customers that have switched (after the learning period) love their new stoves.   I know most of the complaint are about lack of heat and most of those guys are going from a huge box to a much smaller one and no matter how efficient it is if you can only fit half the fire in it it will not make as much heat.  Size the stove right install it correctly and burn good wood which you should have been doing all along and you will probably love that new stove as much as the old one.  I personally burn an old cawley lemay 600 so I am no new stove snob but I would have no hesitation switching if I had to for some reason.


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## begreen (Feb 16, 2014)

The goal of EPA regs is less emissions. That means burning cleaner and more efficiently.  Many newer stoves (but not all) require stronger draft because the air is channeled to provide a clean glass (for a great fire view) and some for preheating the secondary air supply and distributing it via small holes in secondary tubes. These stoves will burn semi-dry wood, I just ran through a cord of damp maple, but the heat output will be poorer and coaling a bit worse. When fed dry wood one gets the best of all worlds, longer cleaner burning, more heat, less wood consumed and a nice view of the fire.

There's another important difference from the old steel boxes and many of today's stoves - shielding. That old Schrader felt great in the cold cabin because there was nothing between the fire and you besides a sheet of steel. Many modern stoves are showing up in nicer living rooms where space is at a premium. Heat shielding has become more common to reduce clearance requirements. This has nothing to do with the EPA. Like air-washed glass doors this is just a concurrent development based on user demand. If you want a more radiant stove look at models without shielding like the Drolet Austral and Myriad, or castiron stoves from Jotul like the F400, F500 & F600. The cast iron Quadrafire Isle Royale is both an easy breathing stove and highly radiant, yet it meets current EPA specs. If oldspark just took off the side shields from his Summit as has often been suggested he would have a radiant heater match for the old Nashua. 

Want to know a bit more about how these old boxes burned? Here is an interesting test of several conventional boxes including the Schrader.
http://www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/conference/ei16/session5/victor.pdf


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## tfdchief (Feb 16, 2014)

begreen said:


> The goal of EPA regs is less emissions. That means burning cleaner and more efficiently.  Many newer stoves (but not all) require stronger draft because the air is channeled to provide a clean glass (for a great fire view) and some for preheating the secondary air supply and distributing it via small holes in secondary tubes. These stoves will burn semi-dry wood, I just ran through a cord of damp maple, but the heat output will be poorer and coaling a bit worse. When fed dry wood one gets the best of all worlds, longer cleaner burning, more heat, less wood consumed and a nice view of the fire.
> 
> There's another important difference from the old steel boxes and many of today's stoves - shielding. That old Schrader felt great in the cold cabin because there was nothing between the fire and you besides a sheet of steel. Many modern stoves are showing up in nicer living rooms where space is at a premium. Heat shielding has become more common to reduce clearance requirements. This has nothing to do with the EPA. Like air-washed glass doors this is just a concurrent development based on user demand. If you want a more radiant stove look at models without shielding like the Drolet Austral and Myriad, or castiron stoves from Jotul like the F400, F500 & F600. The cast iron Quadrafire Isle Royale is both an easy breathing stove and highly radiant, yet it meets current EPA specs.
> 
> ...


Nice explaination BG.  I wish sometime though, I would like too see my old Buck tested relative to the new stoves.  I know, you guys give me a hard time, but  my old buck heats like a fool, the glass stays almost as clean as my little Hampton.  I think a lot of it has to do with the old Buck's convection/heat exchange system and introduction of air through the door handles which somewhat washes the glass.  I have never seen any other old non-EPA rated stove that has a heat exchange system anywhere near close to the old Buck.  Anyway, you know me,  Love my little Hampton, and will never give up my Buck!

Side note.  First one I fire in the morning is the Buck, because it raises the temp in the house fast.  Second, now that I have 2 stoves, interestingly, I don't burn anymore wood than i did with one.  However, the house is more evenly heated and comfortable.  And I get twice the fun......2 stove to play with


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## WiscWoody (Feb 16, 2014)

oldspark said:


> No its not really fair and you see it mentioned on here many times, good dry wood and not smoldering the fire by keeping track of flue temps and you will have little creosote.
> My old stove heated my house well below 0, the new one does not, smaller stove though.


My 2.3CF EPA stove can heat my large home down to -25F if you keep it fed and fired. It won't be over 70 in here but 65-68 which is where I like it anyways. A lady friend I know has a pre EPA stove that's been sitting in here garage for 20 year unused not hooked up. I shouldsee who made it.


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