# Check Point at state line



## Beer Belly (Sep 2, 2014)

I heard for Labor Day Weekend, Mass. State Troopers had a check point at the Ct / Mass border checking campers for firewood entering the state. I usually have my bed cover closed, I would have the right to refuse inspecting the inside of my truck bed without a search warrant, wouldn't I ??....and they would have no right to detain me, as I have not committed a crime requiring a search.....I know that would likely cause me some heartache....but it is my right, no ??


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## Chimney Smoke (Sep 2, 2014)

Most states have some sort of consent law regarding driving.  If you refuse they can use that as reason to detain you.  Kind of like a sobriety checkpoint.  Everyone has to stop and if you try to run they come after you.  I don't think you'd win in that situation.


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## Beer Belly (Sep 2, 2014)

Chimney Smoke said:


> Most states have some sort of consent law regarding driving.  If you refuse they can use that as reason to detain you.  Kind of like a sobriety checkpoint.  Everyone has to stop and if you try to run they come after you.  I don't think you'd win in that situation.


 I thought you can only be detained if you had committed a crime......and simply because I refuse to a search without a warrant, would be grounds for performing a search under suspicion of something to hide ???....then what is the purpose of the Search Warrant ?. Just trying to figure out where privacy laws draw the line.....I've heard of people who refuse to consent to a search, and then asked if they are being detained, and have been allowed to leave.....how true it is, I dunno ?.


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## Z33 (Sep 2, 2014)

As far as I know the 4th Amendment still exists in Connecticut. 

You could absolutely refuse the search. That doesn't mean that they may not fabricate another reason to search your vehicle.


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## Z33 (Sep 2, 2014)

Chimney Smoke said:


> Most states have some sort of consent law regarding driving.  If you refuse they can use that as reason to detain you.  *Kind of like a sobriety checkpoint*.  Everyone has to stop and if you try to run they come after you.  I don't think you'd win in that situation.




This is a completely different subject. The supreme court has ruled that a DUI check point does not violate your rights and this stop does not include a search of your vehicle or persons with out additional Reasonable Articulate Suspicion (RAS). They have not made the same ruling regarding firewood search and seizure.


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## Adios Pantalones (Sep 2, 2014)

I think they would have to have suspicion to search. This is analogous to the immigration checkpoints that are not at the border (you may have seen the videos of people refusing to answer questions).

All that said- I'm a proponent of keeping people from moving potentially infected firewood, just not a fan of unwarranted search etc.


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## Highbeam (Sep 2, 2014)

As a regular, educated, citizen I expect that if I refused to allow them to search that I would be detained as the "refusal" is all the cause they need. Certainly not worth the beating.


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## chrispr1 (Sep 2, 2014)

Unbelievable.  Is this the biggest issue that the CSP has to worry about?  This progressive dump gets worse everyday.  How were they pulling people over?  You have every right to refuse, just like in a sobriety checkpoint.  Even in CT, you are a Citizen, not a subject.


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## Warm_in_NH (Sep 2, 2014)

Pretty sure they can not search. It was probably just more of an "awareness" stop on behalf of the Mass boys in blue. Even if you get stopped at a check point for a DUI and you get arrested, they still can not search, however, when they tow your vehicle and impound it they will "inventory" the vehicle. While doing their inventory IF they find anything illegal, they must stop the inventory, and get a warrant to change it to a "search" of the vehicle. Not speaking from personal experience, just know a guy who's a prosecutor for a local PD.

Last time they had the border police on I-93 in Thornton NH (about 60 miles south of the border) I just looked at the guy and said, "Really?" he didn't even reply, just waved me through.... (guess it was the lack of a french accent?)


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## Beer Belly (Sep 2, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> I think they would have to have suspicion to search. This is analogous to the immigration checkpoints that are not at the border (you may have seen the videos of people refusing to answer questions).
> 
> All that said- I'm a proponent of keeping people from moving potentially infected firewood, just not a fan of unwarranted search etc.


The prices of firewood at the campgrounds equal somewhere around a couple of thousand dollars a cord.....not that I'm buying a cord, but at $7 a pop, for wood that burns for about 1/2 hour, and that's if it's seasoned (not likely) is a little crazy....so yes, I bring wood across state lines....goes from the bed of my truck, right into the fire, last thing I need is a check point. Wonder how they handle those who are carrying ???....and only stopping those towing a camper ??


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## BrotherBart (Sep 2, 2014)

Call the Forestry Department. They are stopping people and asking them if they have firewood. Not searching their vehicles. Many people don't know what the EAB is doing and that they should not bring wood in from out of state.

More Internet hysteria.


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## Chimney Smoke (Sep 2, 2014)

Did this whole situation actually even happen or is it just speculation?




Beer Belly said:


> Wonder how they handle those who are carrying ???



Better hope they have reciprocity between states or permits in each state.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 2, 2014)

Chimney Smoke said:


> Did this whole situation actually even happen or is it just speculation?




http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/08...spread-of-emerald-ash-borer-through-firewood/


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## jeff_t (Sep 2, 2014)

We've had beech bark disease in Michigan for a few years now. First found around a couple of popular state park campgrounds, and brought with firewood from other areas. Likely Ontario, from what I read.

The first I saw EAB in Ohio that was very far from the Michigan border, was near the very popular state park campground at Hocking Hills.

That's how invasive species invade-with help from the unknowing. They don't decide it's just time to move a few thousand miles.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 2, 2014)

Must be something new, eh?

_Jun 2, 2005 - The Mackinac Bridge is a new checkpoint site for hardwood or livestock coming into the Upper Peninsula, as state officials try to stop the spread ..._
_
Sep 3, 2004 - By John Seewer The Associated Press. SYLVANIA - State highway patrol troopers stopped cars and campers at checkpoints Thursday along the Ohio-Michigan state line. They weren't looking for drunken drivers or drugs - just firewood._


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## Beer Belly (Sep 3, 2014)

Wonder if it makes a difference if I'm carrying seasoned Oak, Maple or anything else other than Ash.....and it has no tell tale signs of bugs ?. I understand the concern, but the wood does not sit on the ground, but goes from the bed, to the fire.....and I know some will say, the EAB could crawl out of the bed on it's own, but the EAB could then also be in the empty bed just from carrying the scrounged wood to my yard.


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## JustWood (Sep 3, 2014)

Don't know the legality of the search but when EAB first hit here the popo were concentrating on vehicles with plates from 1 or more states away. They did enforce more so on holiday weekends and near large campgrounds.
I did hear of wood confiscation.
As a vendor the USDA harassed me relentlessLEE for about 6 months with regulation and I literalLEE had to get angry with them to get my point across that the "50 mile rule" didn't apply to me because I don't transport more than 30 to begin with. The state/county line rule is a joke. My yard is 1/2 mile from 3 county lines, a state line and 3 miles from a state line inversion.
Most police with common sense aren't going to make a big deal of this. The USDA on the other hand will.


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## Beer Belly (Sep 3, 2014)

JustWood said:


> Don't know the legality of the search but when EAB first hit here the popo were concentrating on vehicles with plates from 1 or more states away. They did enforce more so on holiday weekends and near large campgrounds.
> I did hear of wood confiscation.


I wonder if I had time to park right there at the check point, I could help them move some of that confiscated wood  to keep it in Connecticut.....easiest scrounge going


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 3, 2014)

Seems like if you are transporting camp fire wood in small quantities you could build a small kiln and make it completely legal transport.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WoodDrying/wood_kiln.htm


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## firefighterjake (Sep 3, 2014)

Beer Belly said:


> I wonder if I had time to park right there at the check point, I could help them move some of that confiscated wood  to keep it in Connecticut.....easiest scrounge going



A few years back some agency in Maine was supposedly stopping folks coming into the state with camp wood and trading them to keep the outta state wood at the bordah . . . often wondered whatever happened to that wood stash.


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## Adios Pantalones (Sep 3, 2014)

Beer Belly said:


> The prices of firewood at the campgrounds equal somewhere around a couple of thousand dollars a cord.....not that I'm buying a cord, but at $7 a pop, for wood that burns for about 1/2 hour, and that's if it's seasoned (not likely) is a little crazy....so yes, I bring wood across state lines....goes from the bed of my truck, right into the fire, last thing I need is a check point. Wonder how they handle those who are carrying ???....and only stopping those towing a camper ??



Ya, it's worth saving a few bucks. Should probably allow Liberian flights in unchecked too.


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## peakbagger (Sep 3, 2014)

A DIY wood kiln would most likely not pass muster as I expect there would be a need for certification that the wood was brought up to a certain temperature and held for a certain period of time. Not likely with a solar kiln.  

I do remember many comments and complaints during various ALB responses that the USDA has fairly broad reaching powers to prevent the spread of pests. I think it comes down to they can do anything they need to to stop the spread including cutting down trees on private property. 

I was looking at camp lot on off a logging road that skirts the ME/NH border. I lot was in Maine but I was in NH and had to drive across the state line once or twice to get to the lot. I was kind of curious how I actually bring wood to the camp. 

Of course over the years I have split various logs that looked clean and hit a pocket with grubs into it. My understanding of ALB is that at some point in the life cycle there is no sign of them infesting the wood from the outside of the log, They start out small and grow until they chew their way out. 

I think the wood from the worcester ALB infestation was burned by a local trash to energy plant.


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## Beer Belly (Sep 3, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Ya, it's worth saving a few bucks. Should probably allow Liberian flights in unchecked too.


Now thats a whole different ballgame right there


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## bholler (Sep 4, 2014)

I absolulty dont agree with unwarranted searches and i would refuse it as well.  But transporting fire wood over allot of distance especially from and infected area is increadibly irresponsible and ignorant and should never be done.  Stuff like that is what caused these problems to begin with


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## BrotherBart (Sep 4, 2014)

If you are going camping, wrap the stuff in little Saran Wrap bundles and print store labels on your laser printer and put them under the wrap like at 7-11.

"MOE"S KILN DRIED FIREWOOD"


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## chrispr1 (Sep 4, 2014)

Has anyone actually seen an ALB or EAB?  Yes, there are a few other beetles out there's but those two seem to be the ones that most cross-State firewood stuff is concerned about. I have a few colleagues who work at university level ag schools which cover invasive pests and outside of the pamphlets they produce, none of them have ever seen one but are quick to point out 'they could be out there.'


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## bholler (Sep 4, 2014)

chrispr1 said:


> Has anyone actually seen an ALB or EAB? Yes, there are a few other beetles out there's but those two seem to be the ones that most cross-State firewood stuff is concerned about. I have a few colleagues who work at university level ag schools which cover invasive pests and outside of the pamphlets they produce, none of them have ever seen one but are quick to point out 'they could be out there.'



i see the damage surrounding me atleast 3/4 of the ash trees here are dead or dying   As well as many of the hemlocks


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## chrispr1 (Sep 4, 2014)

Are any biologists surveying the damage?  Where are you located?  Tapatalk doesn't give the full site info.


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## Warm_in_NH (Sep 4, 2014)

What's killing the hemlock?  I see a lot of dead in CT but in NH they're still on good shape and they're 50% of my trees.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 4, 2014)

Warm_in_NH said:


> What's killing the hemlock?  I see a lot of dead in CT but in NH they're still on good shape and they're 50% of my trees.




Hemlock wooly adelgid


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## bholler (Sep 4, 2014)

Yes biologists are monitoring the spread everywhere.  The hemlocks are really sad there was an area of virgin hemlock forest right by us that had a beautiful canopy and now it is just decimated only about a third of the trees have survived.  Luckily the long winter kicked the wooley adelgids ass and then pa sprayed really heavily so hopefully they got knocked back hard.   And by the way i am in central pa


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## chrispr1 (Sep 5, 2014)

Good.  I'm glad to hear that the situation is being monitored. I'm not trying to be casual about enforcement; it just seems that every time I see my people and ask them about it, they offer no new insight and can't even tell me how other places are handling invasive species.


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## Beer Belly (Sep 5, 2014)

bholler said:


> I absolulty dont agree with unwarranted searches and i would refuse it as well.  But transporting fire wood over allot of distance especially from and infected area is *increadibly irresponsible and ignorant* and should never be done.  Stuff like that is what caused these problems to begin with


 Any wood that I have in my stacks have no _sign_ of any bugs....no bore holes, tight bark, if any.....this also goes for any wood I bring camping....the buggy stuff goes in the firepit or burn barrel at home.....wife seems the think any bug in the bed of the truck will crawl it's way into the cab and crawl up her leg


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## Jags (Sep 5, 2014)

I gotz SARS - can I come visit?


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## bholler (Sep 5, 2014)

Beer Belly said:


> Any wood that I have in my stacks have no sign of any bugs....no bore holes, tight bark, if any.....this also goes for any wood I bring camping....the buggy stuff goes in the firepit or burn barrel at home.....wife seems the think any bug in the bed of the truck will crawl it's way into the cab and crawl up her leg



The early stages of the eab you cant see signs sorry.  And why take the risk just to save a few bucks.  And how would you know if it had any of the fungus out there just by looking at it?  I am sorry but it is irresponsible


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## Beer Belly (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm sure there are others who are worse than my one trip a year 20 miles over the state line with a 1/4 load of wood (at best) in a six foot bed to save a a couple of hundred dollars. Does this mean I'm kicked out of the club ?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 5, 2014)

Jags said:


> I gotz SARS - can I come visit?



Please come and visit my neighbor on the South side.


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## bholler (Sep 5, 2014)

Beer Belly said:


> I'm sure there are others who are worse than my one trip a year 20 miles over the state line with a 1/4 load of wood (at best) in a six foot bed to save a a couple of hundred dollars. Does this mean I'm kicked out of the club ?



Yes there are people who do a whole lot worse but that doesn't make it ok for you to do it.  How would it work if you told  a cop well that guy stole allot more than i did would that make it ok for you?   In all honesty i doubt that if you really were only going 20 miles it would make any difference but it just shouldn't be done.  And save a couple hundred bucks wow how much wood do you use for a camp fire?


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## Beer Belly (Sep 5, 2014)

bholler said:


> Yes there are people who do a whole lot worse but that doesn't make it ok for you to do it.  How would it work if you told  a cop well that guy stole allot more than i did would that make it ok for you?   In all honesty i doubt that if you really were only going 20 miles it would make any difference but it just shouldn't be done.  And save a couple hundred bucks wow how much wood do you use for a camp fire?


$7-8 a bundle that last about, a little more than half an hour, for a weekend trip....start the fire (depending on temps) at 4-5pm....keep it going till 1am.....burns a fair amount of wood. The wood at the campground is usually small, and burns fast...more like the kindling that I use at home.


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## Swedishchef (Sep 6, 2014)

My favorite camping spot sells hardwood. I was quite surprised to see that! I'd say about 10-12 pieces of decent size hardwood mixed with 5-7 pieces of spruce to help get it going. All for $5! I guess we were lucky, my kids are young and were in bed by 8:15 PM.
Andrew


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## Adios Pantalones (Sep 9, 2014)

Beer Belly said:


> $7-8 a bundle that last about, a little more than half an hour, for a weekend trip....start the fire (depending on temps) at 4-5pm....keep it going till 1am.....burns a fair amount of wood. The wood at the campground is usually small, and burns fast...more like the kindling that I use at home.


Way I see it- they are trying to do the right thing. They don't know you well enough to make an exception to save you a little money. Everyone accuses them of trying to make some cash on this- I think we should try and look at their perspective. Their job is hard enough, and most that I know REALLY DO CARE about the forests, trails, and critters entrusted to their protection.

I'd think people would cut THEM some slack on this and help make their job easier.


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## jeromehdmc (Sep 18, 2014)

I live near Kansas City and guess what...we have the EAB here now. I have a tree line of around 20 nice trees that are dying now. I also have 3 large ones that shade the front of the house and will probably die also. This is all because someone unknowingly brought them here. I hope it was an accident not someone that didn't need anyone telling them they couldn't move their firewood. I am totally against unwarranted search but I also understand the need for stops like these, I am paying the price for it now.


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## xman23 (Oct 4, 2014)

Just about every day I would see cars being searched as I came across the GW bridge to NJ.  That stopped years ago after they were sued for profiling and illegal searches.  

I they will ask to search your vehicle, and you agree, what ever they find can be used against you. When they ask, you say only with probable cause. They then know, you know the law.  Will they make up a phony cause, maybe but if it is, what they find won't stick. It becomes  After all is said and done with a lot of $ and a  good lawyer it becomes an illegal search. But don't have anything visible, because that becomes issue then they can search.  Not from any experience with this. Just has always interested me how this works.


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## RichVT (Oct 8, 2014)

This might be a good time to share my wood moving story. This happened years ago before any of these bugs were a concern.

I was helping a friend close up his family's summer camp in central New Hampshire for the season. They had tons of firewood and I got the bright idea of making up some bundles to take on some camping trips that we had planned for the fall.

Loaded the wood in his truck and drove back to the lower Hudson Valley in New York where we lived (by way of Vermont). First trip was to Cape Cod in MA. by way of CT. and possibly R.I. depending on the route that we took. Didn't burn much due to rain so it came back to N.Y. Next trip was to Lake George in northern N.Y. where we burned some and left the rest for the next campers.

If this wood had been infected, I could have single handedly infested almost the entire Northeast!

The friend ironically works for the USDA and was instrumental in their initial response to ALB. If you see a picture of an ALB it was probably taken by him.

So this is what they are trying to prevent but it still doesn't give them the right to search your car.


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## Enzo's Dad (Oct 8, 2014)

Its actualyl a pretty serious problem, I have it in my yard and I have lost almost all of my Ash trees. The trees that are completely dead are scarred under the bark.
Others just have lost their leaf growth.


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## Enzo's Dad (Oct 8, 2014)

Link To CT EPA



http://www.ct.gov/deep/cwp/view.asp?a=2697&Q=508886&deepNav_GID=1631


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## pen (Oct 8, 2014)

All I can say as that WITHIN the state of NY, it's not legal to move firewood more than 50 miles unless it undergoes a certain treatment protocol.  Along with that, when firewood is moved, it needs a paperwork trail to explain the origin of the wood, etc..... Point is, since we can have state to state laws in this nation, be prepared and do your research when traveling interstate, or be prepared to deal with the consequences if you choose to be in violation.  

Here's some info from NY http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/28722.html


pen


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## smmjam12 (Oct 16, 2014)

I split a grapple load of wood with a buddy of mine.  We got it delivered to his house, he lives in NH, I live in MA about 35 miles from him.  I have been goiing up to NH to cut up rounds and bring them back to MA by the pick up truck load on weekends.  I always mak sure I can cover the load with my bed cover to ensure I dont get hassled by LE.


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## Beer Belly (Oct 16, 2014)

An attempt at redemption for my wrong doing.....I just turned down 3 dump truck loads of fresh cut Oak, 24 inch diameter, 3 foot length, that was dropped at my Cousins house.....it's about 10 miles over state line


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## Wildo (Oct 20, 2014)

smmjam12 said:


> I split a grapple load of wood with a buddy of mine.  We got it delivered to his house, he lives in NH, I live in MA about 35 miles from him.  I have been goiing up to NH to cut up rounds and bring them back to MA by the pick up truck load on weekends.  I always mak sure I can cover the load with my bed cover to ensure I dont get hassled by LE.


Hauling from an uninfected state to an infected one is however not illegal...


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## Fsappo (Oct 20, 2014)

I just let them search.  I'd never be breaking the law on purpose and would be glad to know if I was breaking the law unaware.


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## bag of hammers (Oct 22, 2014)

Beer Belly said:


> The prices of firewood at the campgrounds equal somewhere around a couple of thousand dollars a cord



Outside the local grocery stores, some box stores, I see onion skin bags with 4 or 5 splits  selling right now for just shy of $10 / bag.  Kinda looks like 1 bag = approx 1 sq ft, which is @ $1,280 / cord.  Probably aimed at the folks with a fireplace who might grab a couple on a whim, just to light a fire for ambiance, etc. after supper.  But just makes me cringe a bit.  Makes it pretty tempting to bring your own if you're doing a camp fire, vs. that kind of $.  

I recall in some of the "manned" provincial parks around here the park rangers would often cut a bunch of "stuff" (poplar, jack pine, mountain ash, etc. - whatever was cleared in their Spring opening, occasional blow downs, stuff from public wood lots, etc.) and keep a small wood lot for campers to go and grab their firewood for the night.  Kept the student workers busy, not a bad idea - just help yourself.  We'd joke about the guys in the park hoarding back a wagon load of the "nice looking" stuff (big squeaky clean green poplar rounds) with big smiles over this great score, leaving behind those awful looking dirty grey uglies for us.  Supper cooking over a nice bed of h/w coals while the poplar fire building exercise across the way smolders on.  Meanwhile, in the more remote parks, or out on crown land, we never had to go far to gather enough gopher wood for a decent camp fire.  Lucky that way.


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