# Cars? sedans.



## flyingcow (Jan 25, 2014)

looking at 4 door sedans. mid sized. mid $20's or less(quite frankly I'm pushing for mid $30's, not my decision.). Demo'd quite a few the other day. been a long time since I've been in one to drive. 10 plus yrs. demo'd honda,volvo,gm,hyundia,toyota. Didn't like the looks of a ford, but thats just us. Seriously disappointed in the ride of all, except Toyota.


Like the 4 cylinder Camray. Wife liked the Corolla. Any thoughts? mainly 2012/13's


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## flyingcow (Jan 25, 2014)

Or any thoughts of a mid size that rides better than a buckboard? We have had minivans for 15 yrs? or so.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 26, 2014)

I really like the ride of my Honda Accord . . . but it's a coupe and a 2003 . . . not sure if that makes a difference.

Did you try a Nissan Maxima or Altima?

Buckboard, huh? Exactly how plush a ride is this tractor trailer of yours?


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## KB007 (Jan 26, 2014)

Test drive a Mercedes C class - 12/13 used C250 prolly in the high 20's/low 30's price range.  Prolly able to get a C250 4matic (AWD) for that price range depending on year.


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## jharkin (Jan 26, 2014)

Toyotas ride very soft... Not my thing personally but everyone's preference is unique. Most everything else is gonna feel stiff by that yardstick.

This is very open ended.... What's important to you - fuel economy, performance, handling, comfort, reliability?  Do you have a preference between FWD, RWD, AWD? Manual or auto?


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## flyingcow (Jan 26, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> I really like the ride of my Honda Accord . . . but it's a coupe and a 2003 . . . not sure if that makes a difference.
> 
> Did you try a Nissan Maxima or Altima?
> 
> Buckboard, huh? Exactly how plush a ride is this tractor trailer of yours?



Rides quite well. Should for 140k


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## firefighterjake (Jan 26, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> Rides quite well. Should for 140k



Hmmm . . . that's a bit more than what I paid for my Accord. 

I was thinking . . . you might try looking at the Subaru Legacys . . . pricing pretty well and the advantage of AWD . . . not that you would ever need it up your way.


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## flyingcow (Jan 26, 2014)

jharkin said:


> Toyotas ride very soft... Not my thing personally but everyone's preference is unique. Most everything else is gonna feel stiff by that yardstick.
> 
> This is very open ended.... What's important to you - fuel economy, performance, handling, comfort, reliability?  Do you have a preference between FWD, RWD, AWD? Manual or auto?




We want a basic 4 door. we've been talking and pretty much have decided on a Camary 4 cylinder.


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## flyingcow (Jan 26, 2014)

KB007 said:


> Test drive a Mercedes C class - 12/13 used C250 prolly in the high 20's/low 30's price range.  Prolly able to get a C250 4matic (AWD) for that price range depending on year.




Though I will look at that. Just for curiosity. Thanks


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## jharkin (Jan 26, 2014)

Between all the Japanese mid size family sedans (Camry, Accord, Altima, Mazda6), the Camry is the oldest design and tends to place last in automotive press comparisons. You'd be well served to test drive all 4 before deciding.

Disclaimer I'm a long time Honda guy and seriously looking at Accord v6.


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## jharkin (Jan 26, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> Hmmm . . . that's a bit more than what I paid for my Accord.
> 
> I was thinking . . . you might try looking at the Subaru Legacys . . . pricing pretty well and the advantage of AWD . . . not that you would ever need it up your way.



+1 if I lived in northern Maine Subaru would be on my short list.


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## flyingcow (Jan 27, 2014)

the subaru is not something we are interested in. We did test drive the cars that had been listed here. We keep coming back to the Camry. We'll see how this works out. Just a big change going from minivans back to a sedan.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jan 27, 2014)

If you're OK with 2WD, the Camry is proven and affordable. Nothing wrong with that.

My wife has a Subaru Legacy that is the bomb. We have had 4 Subies, and I see no reason to look anywhere else.


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## flyingcow (Jan 27, 2014)

This is 99% of my wife's decision. I won't be in it very often. I have a crew Cab 8ft 3500 series D-Max as my ride.

We've had good luck with front wheel drive in the winter. Studded all around. 

I mentioned Subaru but she didn't seem interested.


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## aussiedog3 (Jan 27, 2014)

20 years trouble free driving with 1994 Toyota Camry LE V6 that my wife bought new before we were married.
200,000+ miles on it.  Always garaged, nearly rust free, pretty good for Michigan winters.
I change the oil every 3-4000 miles.  Has only needed normal wear and tear maintained like brakes, timing belt with water pump.
Love it, would buy another one if I could find one(or Lexus 300 version) with relatively low miles.
I don't think you will go wrong with a Toyota or Honda.
Personally I love the new looks of the Chevy Cruze.


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## bassJAM (Jan 27, 2014)

You won't go wrong with a Camry.  Personally I don't care for the soft ride that Toyotas have, but to each his own.  My personal pick out of front wheel drive sedans would be a Nissan Altima or Maxima, both are seriously fun cars with that 3.5!  Haven't driven a new Accord but I always liked those as well.  I like the direction Ford is going, but I don't know if I'm ready to get another one although I came real close to getting a Mazda last year.  I stay away from GM and Chrysler like the plague.


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## ironspider (Jan 27, 2014)

Go drive the BMW 320i xdrive.  It's the best car in it's class if you are willing to go into the mid 30's.  It's get great gas mileage, quick, handles well, and it's great in the snow.  Plus free everything for 4 years.


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## jharkin (Jan 27, 2014)

ironspider said:


> Go drive the BMW 320i xdrive.  It's the best car in it's class if you are willing to go into the mid 30's.  It's get great gas mileage, quick, handles well, and it's great in the snow.  Plus free everything for 4 years.



Have they fixed those failing high pressure fuel pumps that where stranding people on the side of the road left and right?


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## ironspider (Jan 27, 2014)

Those issues were on the 335i with the n54 engine. That was fixed but this is a totally different animal than that car, just the same series.


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## begreen (Jan 27, 2014)

Don't get the Corolla. They are buzzy when you step on the gas and have a rougher ride with its shorter wheelbase. The Camry offers a big cushy ride, a quiet cabin and competitive pricing. If that's what you like best, go for it.


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## nick123 (Jan 27, 2014)

Here's my .02$...Steer clear of anything American and don't feel guilty about it.  I'm not a fan of VW, Mercedes or BMW. They don't deserve there price or reputation. Stick with Japanese cars. They know how to build them. They may not have the best ride or latest flashy features, but they use whats known to work and are reliable as hell. I would rank them as follows 1) Toyota/Honda, 2) Nissan and Subaru. Nissan and Subaru are good vehicles but there just not of the caliber of a Toyota or Honda when it comes to reliability. That said I would put them miles ahead on reliability amongst any of the other brands mentioned. I just gave away my 2000 accord with 180k on it to a friend that was in need of a car. I'm willing to bet that car still has  good 100k left in it. Those 180k miles were some rough hard miles and the car never gave me any real issues. Do your self a favor and pay $30 for consumer reports on line edition. It will tell give you the track record of various cars over a ten year period. It will show you trouble spots and things to avoid. I have the misfortune of selling cars for a living. Have been selling Nissan's and Hyundai for almost three years and deal with this stuff on a daily basis. Japanese cars hold there value and are good bet for the long run. Good luck and let me know if you have any questions.


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## ironspider (Jan 27, 2014)

IMHO the Camry is the most boring car on the road. I would personally get a honda accord over a Camry any day. Even better, a VW passat offers a far superior handling car at similar cost. 

Or if you are thinking pre owned get a low mileage certified BMW  328xi 2011, comes with 100k warranty and .9 financing.


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## webbie (Jan 27, 2014)

My 2010 Passat has got to be one of my favorite cars ever. Fast, good handling, amazing amounts of room, never breaks down, etc....

It's like a Camry or Accord but with more room and soul.....


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## TMonter (Jan 27, 2014)

begreen said:


> Don't get the Corolla. They are buzzy when you step on the gas and have a rougher ride with its shorter wheelbase. The Camry offers a big cushy ride, a quiet cabin and competitive pricing. If that's what you like best, go for it.



That depends on whether you want economy or overall lower road noise not to mention higher price. If it's a daily commuter the Corolla is still an excellent choice and has one of the lowest costs of ownership.

The ride depends a lot on the tires. The stock Corolla tires are terrible.


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## TMonter (Jan 27, 2014)

ironspider said:


> IMHO the Camry is the most boring car on the road. I would personally get a honda accord over a Camry any day. Even better, a VW passat offers a far superior handling car at similar cost.
> 
> Or if you are thinking pre owned get a low mileage certified BMW  328xi 2011, comes with 100k warranty and .9 financing.



The long term reliability of the BMW or the Passat leaves a lot to be desired though.


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## rwthomas1 (Jan 28, 2014)

Its all how you view a vehicle.  If you think of a car as a fridge, its just there to move you from point a to point b, then the Japanese stuff will fit the bill.  If you care about how a car drives, what it feels like, how it sounds, that is why German cars still sell.  I just looked at the CRV and Tiguan.  CRV is and feels tinny, plasticy, its loud, etc.  All the things even the base Tiguan is not.  I own a Toyota and its great at what it does but it is a souless metal box at the end of the day.  Driving it is like driving a couch and when it leaves I have no attachment to it.  Regarding reliability, the Japanese stuff does better with the typical "neglect" schedule most people seem to follow.  German stuff requires your attention, and without service when it needs it, can get expensive quickly.  I've owned mostly German stuff for 25 years and found that service needs to be pretty average and normal, if you pay attention.  Its like Grandpa always said, "Its a good thing we all want different things, or we'd all be chasing Grandma"


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## begreen (Jan 28, 2014)

rwthomas1 said:


> Its all how you view a vehicle.  If you think of a car as a fridge, its just there to move you from point a to point b, then the Japanese stuff will fit the bill...  I own a Toyota and its great at what it does but it is a souless metal box at the end of the day.  Driving it is like driving a couch and when it leaves I have no attachment to it.


Great line and pretty true.


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## TMonter (Jan 28, 2014)

rwthomas1 said:


> Its all how you view a vehicle.  If you think of a car as a fridge, its just there to move you from point a to point b, then the Japanese stuff will fit the bill.  If you care about how a car drives, what it feels like, how it sounds, that is why German cars still sell.  I just looked at the CRV and Tiguan.  CRV is and feels tinny, plasticy, its loud, etc.  All the things even the base Tiguan is not.  I own a Toyota and its great at what it does but it is a souless metal box at the end of the day.  Driving it is like driving a couch and when it leaves I have no attachment to it.  Regarding reliability, the Japanese stuff does better with the typical "neglect" schedule most people seem to follow.  German stuff requires your attention, and without service when it needs it, can get expensive quickly.  I've owned mostly German stuff for 25 years and found that service needs to be pretty average and normal, if you pay attention.  Its like Grandpa always said, "Its a good thing we all want different things, or we'd all be chasing Grandma"



The "japanese" (since many of them are made in the country they are sold in)  cars do better on a regular maintenance schedule as well. It's more than just requiring attention it's the rapid pace at which past a certain age the German cars seem to require excessive maintenance and not to mention the cost of the parts. Something as simple as a coil pack will often cost 2-3x as much on a german car than a japanese car.

http://corp.carmd.com/2013-manufacturer-vehicle-ranking.htm?subId=232

Notice the top 10 reliable vehicles, you don't see a single German car in there.

I'm all for performance, but if you can't make a car that performs and is reliable, how in the heck do you expect most people to want to own one.


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## jebatty (Jan 28, 2014)

Only 4-cyl Camry's since 1986, all but the 1986 we bought used with mileage between 30,000 and 85,000. Drove all to 250,000+ miles and then sold for good money. Never before had such a trouble free car. All got 30+ mpg on the highway, and our 2007 gets 33-34 mpg, the 2005 about 1 mpg less. A car is transportation first and foremost + enough room to meet the need, quality of ride is 2nd, and performance, pzazz, and everything else is money down the drain as far as I'm concerned. BTW, the 2007 has a trailer hitch and pulls everything I need to pull, allowed me to dump the gas guzzling pickup years ago. Never regretted that move.

The only trouble with Camry's is that they don't wear out. Our 2005, now 9 years old, only has 185,000 miles on it, which means 5-10 more years before we get to replace it.


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## ironspider (Jan 28, 2014)

TMonter said:


> The "japanese" (since many of them are made in the country they are sold in)  cars do better on a regular maintenance schedule as well. It's more than just requiring attention it's the rapid pace at which past a certain age the German cars seem to require excessive maintenance and not to mention the cost of the parts. Something as simple as a coil pack will often cost 2-3x as much on a german car than a japanese car.



The NY Times put it best when comparing Lexus to BMW.  "If you don't like driving, get a Lexus, however, if you get enjoyment out of driving buy a BMW"

Lexus is just an upscale toyota.


German cars use more expensive parts in order to perform significantly better than their Jap rivals.  Using more expensive parts means more expensive repairs.

I'm just saying!  Look, I've driven EVERYTHING, from Bentley to Lamborghini, the cars I despised the most were the toyota/lexus, they have no soul as thomas put it. If I'm going to spend 20-50K on a car or anything for that matter, it better excite me.


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## ironspider (Jan 28, 2014)

TMonter said:


> http://corp.carmd.com/2013-manufacturer-vehicle-ranking.htm?subId=232



Consider this:  Car and Driver, the most respected automotive magazine has name BMW 3 series as one of the ten bet 22 years in a row.  22 years, no other manufacturer can come close to this, that is why the bmw 3 series is considered the benchmark of the class.

You will not find a toyota on even 1/3 of that list in the past 22 years.


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## ironspider (Jan 28, 2014)

TMonter said:


> http://corp.carmd.com/2013-manufacturer-vehicle-ranking.htm?subId=232
> .



This list is garbage, I can not trust a website that ranks Hyundai as the top car.  They are throw away cars.  What they fail to realize is that even though they are reliable, after just a few years you get creeks rattles and all sorts of NVH stuff that is unpleasant.  You will not find that kind of deterioration on a BMW, Benz (some of them), or Audi.


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## jebatty (Jan 28, 2014)

Nor will you find me on a BMW list for the last 66 years,


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## bassJAM (Jan 28, 2014)

Wow, a lot of brand loyalty showing up here.  I'll admit almost everything Toyota/Lexus makes is boring.  And BMW is truly a "driver's car".  And I love to rail cars on the streets, but I also despise doing maintenance, so any German car is out for me, as are American vehicles.  You see a lot of BMW/Mercedes owners on a 5 year rotation with their cars for a reason, they start to nickle and dime you after a while, and German parts are not cheap.  You don't buy a BMW because you want a reliable commuter, you buy one for the driving experience or the status.  VW is the exception with German cars, with it being a crap shoot if your model will have long term reliability.  I talk to as many people who love theirs, as people who have dumped serious money into keeping them running.

Lexus/Toyota has made 2 fun cars, the Supra and the IS300.  When I decided I wanted a fun sports sedan, I ruled out the 3 series pretty quick, even though that used to be my dream car.  I ended up with an 03 IS300, and that engine has a record of lasting a long time.  It is a shame they don't make anything more modern that is fun, because the built quality is excellent.  I really wanted a G35 sedan, but even their reliability scared me for something I wanted to go to 200,000 miles trouble free.

Nissan is doing a great job of breathing fun life into their cars so is Subaru, but they aren't at the level of reliability of Toyota/Honda.  Honda is normally a decent compromise if you want something fun, but their lower tier models are basically tin boxes with an engine.  Most people don't care so much about "fun" though and view a car as an appliance.  And if you want an appliance that you drive to last a long time, go with a Japanese one, hands down.  I'm keeping my eye on Hyundai/Kia as well, I think they've surpassed the American cars and will be on the tails of the Japanese pretty soon.


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## Enzo's Dad (Jan 28, 2014)

ironspider said:


> The NY Times put it best when comparing Lexus to BMW.  "If you don't like driving, get a Lexus, however, if you get enjoyment out of driving buy a BMW"
> 
> Lexus is just an upscale toyota.
> 
> ...


I actually sell Lexus cars for a living and I sold BMW's for six years. The long and the short I have never seen anyone crying in the Lexus service department, and that was a monthly event at BMW . When they break its catastrophic, repairs are the 2 to 3k range when you are out of warranty

To the original posters criteria in the 20 to 30 k range the 2 best 4 door sedan choices for New England are the legacy (best awd for under 30 k) and the vw Jetta tdi (very reliable and amazing fuel economy) the Camry and accord give you a big size and reliability fo the $ but they really have no soul .

For the record the Subaru legacy , accord, Camry are all made in the United States .

I own the legacy I need the awd to get to work in the snow and I am cheap


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## TMonter (Jan 28, 2014)

ironspider said:


> This list is garbage, I can not trust a website that ranks Hyundai as the top car.  They are throw away cars.  What they fail to realize is that even though they are reliable, after just a few years you get creeks rattles and all sorts of NVH stuff that is unpleasant.  You will not find that kind of deterioration on a BMW, Benz (some of them), or Audi.



I beg to differ, BMW's and Audi's both have horrible long term quality issues and at the 10 year mark have as many creaks and rattles.

There is a reason the German cars lose value more quickly than their other counterparts.

A high dollar performance car that lasts a few years and is fun to drive, and then promptly becomes a maintenance headache while cool does not inspire confidence in their engineering capabilities in my book.


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## TMonter (Jan 28, 2014)

ironspider said:


> Consider this:  Car and Driver, the most respected automotive magazine has name BMW 3 series as one of the ten bet 22 years in a row.  22 years, no other manufacturer can come close to this, that is why the bmw 3 series is considered the benchmark of the class.
> 
> You will not find a toyota on even 1/3 of that list in the past 22 years.



Car and driver is a performance car magazine more concerned with on the road performance than with long term quality or reliability. Like it or not, a car purchased solely for performance is out of the reach of most people.

Are you honestly going to claim that a BMW M3 (or any other 3 series) is in the reach of most people?

I mean if you're not going to be practical, sign me up for a new M3 or preferably an Ariel Atom V8 any day.


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## DBNH22 (Jan 28, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> the subaru is not something we are interested in. We did test drive the cars that had been listed here. We keep coming back to the Camry. We'll see how this works out. Just a big change going from minivans back to a sedan.




I've owned both Subarua and Toyota.  I'd take a Toyota with snow tires on it any day over any model Subaru.  Subaru has a loyal following and they're not bad cars but I've found both Toyota and Honda to be more reliable and cheaper to maintain.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 28, 2014)

If I have to be honest . . . I think my favorite car was a Toyota Celica I owned . . . I think it was either a 1990 or 1993 ST . . . bottom of the barrel . . . and I later learned it was a "chick car" . . . but I still liked it as it was light enough to be quite zippy, handled well and was fantastic on gas. I would still be driving it today if it hadn't rusted out.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 28, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> Or any thoughts of a mid size that rides better than a buckboard? We have had minivans for 15 yrs? or so.


 We have one of those and just cant part with it ,its so damn handy.Brought home out 70" HDTV recently.  Rides nice too.Your gonna miss yours.


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## razerface (Jan 28, 2014)

i wear out toyotas. I presently have 296,000 miles on a 98 4runner. That thing is remarkable in it's ability to go places offroad, in it's stock form. It does not even burn oil yet. 

I believe honda has a slightly overblown reputation in many cases. There are 3 honda plants in my location, and many friends and family work there and own hondas.   The cars seem to be better then the crv's. My family has killed 3 of those.

Honda sure did teach us some manufacturing lessons though.

I could not care less about performance cars. I am one of those that lost interest in vehicles after the 70's, other then trucks, but they are tools.


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## DBNH22 (Jan 28, 2014)

razerface said:


> I could not care less about performance cars. I am one of those that lost interest in vehicles after the 70's, other then trucks, but they are tools.



Yeah I'm not a car guy either.  Everyone's gotta have a hobby or two but I never understood the idea of dropping thousands of dollars into a depreciating asset, which is what 99% of vehichles are for 99% of people.  I guess they're useful in bolstering the ego or sense of importance for some.  

I view all vehichles as tools.  I don't care who sees me driving what make and model.  I need to get from A to B safely, reliably and economically.


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## flyingcow (Jan 28, 2014)

Good lord...this took off as a thread.  I thought this might have to head for the can.  _But I do appreciate the input. _Seriously this is good input. BUT ........my wife is still leaning to the Camry. She's happy..............

BTW------the truck i own is, a '06 crew cab, 8ft bed,3500 series, D-Mavx. Which has a 4 inch lift.

But I might trade to a http://www.chevrolet.com/ss-sports-sedan.html


0 to 60 in 5 seconds. Make me a nice company car................


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## firefighterjake (Jan 29, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> Good lord...this took off as a thread.  I thought this might have to head for the can.  _But I do appreciate the input. _Seriously this is good input. BUT ........my wife is still leaning to the Camry. She's happy..............
> 
> BTW------the truck i own is, a '06 crew cab, 8ft bed,3500 series, D-Mavx. Which has a 4 inch lift.
> 
> ...


 

You can get all the input you want from us . . . and there are many of us have some favoritism towards certain makes . . . but at the end of the day what really matters is that your wife picks what she wants . . . not what we think she wants.


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## ironspider (Jan 29, 2014)

TMonter said:


> Car and driver is a performance car magazine more concerned with on the road performance than with long term quality or reliability. Like it or not, a car purchased solely for performance is out of the reach of most people.
> 
> Are you honestly going to claim that a BMW M3 (or any other 3 series) is in the reach of most people?
> 
> I mean if you're not going to be practical, sign me up for a new M3 or preferably an Ariel Atom V8 any day.



Yes I'm going to claim that some 3 series are in the reach of most people.  Many people buy a honda accord for over 30k, a toyota camry for over 30k (blows my mind), nissan maxima, vw passat etc.  Yet, you can get a bmw 320i for low 30's, just give up some of the stupid crazy options and you have the best handling car for 30 grand.

M3, no that is out of reach for most people.  But, If you are leasing you can surely get a 328 xdrive, loaded for a reasonable monthly payment, and NEVER have to worry about maintenance.


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## flyingcow (Jan 29, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> We have one of those and just cant part with it ,its so damn handy.Brought home out 70" HDTV recently.  Rides nice too.Your gonna miss yours.




we're going to keep the minivan. Is a 2005 with only a hundred sixty five thousand miles on it.my daughter will be getting her license this will make a good third vehicle. Plus if we need it we can use it.and yes they're very very handy.4 studded snow tires 120 pounds of sand in the back. I can give 4 wheeldrives a pretty good one for the money in the snow


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## ironspider (Jan 29, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> Good lord...this took off as a thread.  I thought this might have to head for the can.  _But I do appreciate the input. _Seriously this is good input. BUT ........my wife is still leaning to the Camry. She's happy..............
> 
> BTW------the truck i own is, a '06 crew cab, 8ft bed,3500 series, D-Mavx. Which has a 4 inch lift.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I have very strong feelings about certain cars so, this thread getting off topic may be my fault. Like someone else said, as long as your wife is happy, that is what matters.  So if she like the Camry, well, Camry it is.

Now that Chevy SS, oooh, I want one too.


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## flyingcow (Jan 29, 2014)

I like how this thread went. Gets a good snapshot of various ways to look at different cars. I live a very sheltered life. we could afford a $40,000 car pretty easy. But the better half has about 25,000 in mind.I almost got her talked into trying the Audi Quattro out.but I'll be surprised if that happens. We're at a good place because of her common sense pending


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## flyingcow (Jan 29, 2014)

voice to text comes out kinda rough sometimes. Hope it all made sense


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 29, 2014)

I had one toyota tacoma 1999,and it turned out to be the most unreliable,useless hunk of rust i ever owned. Not going back there.
Id like to try something different. Perhaps a VOLT . IF they ever produce a reasonably priced electric truck ill be first in line. All Pickups get  krap MPG . For now my only option is to convert an existing one.


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## bassJAM (Jan 29, 2014)

ironspider said:


> Yes I'm going to claim that some 3 series are in the reach of most people.  Many people buy a honda accord for over 30k, a toyota camry for over 30k (blows my mind), nissan maxima, vw passat etc.  Yet, you can get a bmw 320i for low 30's, just give up some of the stupid crazy options and you have the best handling car for 30 grand.
> 
> M3, no that is out of reach for most people.  But, If you are leasing you can surely get a 328 xdrive, loaded for a reasonable monthly payment, and NEVER have to worry about maintenance.



If you're getting a 320i in the 30k range, you must REALLY want to be driving a BMW.  I'll admit their handling is hard to touch, but to keep the price from approaching the 40's you'll be giving up a lot of options the other cars will offer just for a base, stripped,  BMW that handles well (and will never touch the long term reliability).  I can't see any scenario where getting a BMW is more practical than a cheaper Japanese car.  Personally, if I were looking that level of car I'd take the dated G37, or probably even a TL even though I have a strong opinion that a luxury sports sedan should not be front wheel drive.


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## ironspider (Jan 29, 2014)

bassJAM said:


> If you're getting a 320i in the 30k range, you must REALLY want to be driving a BMW.  I'll admit their handling is hard to touch, but to keep the price from approaching the 40's you'll be giving up a lot of options the other cars will offer just for a base, stripped,  BMW that handles well (and will never touch the long term reliability).  I can't see any scenario where getting a BMW is more practical than a cheaper Japanese car.  Personally, if I were looking that level of car I'd take the dated G37, or probably even a TL even though I have a strong opinion that a luxury sports sedan should not be front wheel drive.



You said it yourself, cheaper. There is no question if you buy An Acura you are buying a nicer honda, if you are buying an Infiniti you are buying a Nissan. Same chassis mostly the same parts just nicer wood and leather and more chrome. When you are buying a BMW you are buying a BMW, not a gussied up jap car. 

Look I'm not talking practical, practical is buying an accord or Camry and driving it until the wheels fall off. I like to live a little, a car isn't a piece of metal to me, it's also a toy.


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## Retired Guy (Jan 29, 2014)

TMonter said:


> I beg to differ, BMW's and Audi's both have horrible long term quality issues and at the 10 year mark have as many creaks and rattles.
> 
> There is a reason the German cars lose value more quickly than their other counterparts.
> 
> A high dollar performance car that lasts a few years and is fun to drive, and then promptly becomes a maintenance headache while cool does not inspire confidence in their engineering capabilities in my book.


Neighbor has a 2 year old Mercedes and when nearly brand new had a fog bulb light fail and needed to replace the entire assembly. if it weren't under warranty the part would have been nearly $300.


----------



## jharkin (Jan 29, 2014)

Wow, I missed a lot...

I'm still digesting, but I have to say I'm with T and others re: German reliability.  Of course the 3 series wins the 10 best over and over... its a phenomenal car to drive (or it was till they ruined it with electric steering). I've always owned Japanse cars, but was seriously looking at finally jumping over to something like a 3 last year. In every other department but reliability (performance ,styling, etc) I just love the German design asthetic...

.... Problem is I just cant get past the reliability problems... If I could afford a 3 as a weekend fun car Id do it, but just not willing to risk it for a daily driver family hauler.  Before I got married I lived with two roomates. I had an Acura, roomate #1 an E36 BMW M3, roommate #2 a B5 Audi S4.  I drove all 3, while my car was the least fun it also spent the least amount of time in the shop.  That Audi had annual water pump jobs just like clockwork.  Another friend of mine is an Audi fanatic and has had multiple A6s. But he has admitted to me every single one has stranded him at least once.

A lot of folks mention the free scheduled maintenance or extended warranties to compensate, but I just  dont want to deal with the inconvenience of those frequent dealer trips. Read bimmerfest or any other German car forum and look for all the stories of people waiting weeks with a loaner for parts from Germany, or stranded roadside due to failed coils and injectors etc. And discussion about lemon law claims. Granted its the minority with problems who are the most vocal, but if you look at the statistics in JDPower or Truedelta the numbers dont lie..... Germans get hammered.

"Mike Millers maintenance schedule" to the contrary, the problems with German cars aren't from a lack of changing fluids.  The issues are often around overstressed and overly complex electronics -particularly injectors, coils, ecu's, window regulators, door locks - and too much plastic in critical spots like the cooling system.  No amount of oil changes and radiator flushes will prevent these failures.

I would drive an 80s vintage German car in a heartbeat.  I wouldn't want to own a modern one.  I'd like to see them get back to building rock solid dependable cars because frankly the Japanese offerings do put me to sleep behind the wheel, even as I go to buy another one.  But as long as the majority of their owners lease and dump the car every two years they probably don't have much incentive to improve reliability. The market they are selling to is buying for performance and luxury, not reliability; and they know it.

Porsche knows how to deliver performance with reliability.  It seems like Mercedes is slowly coming around.  I'd love to see BMW, Adui/VW, etc do so also. Ive often thought that if took a BMW or Audi, swap the ZF slushbox for a Honda manual tranny, replace all the plastic bits with metal and all the Continental/Bosch electronics with Nippondenso.... well you might just have the worlds perfect sedan!


----------



## TMonter (Jan 29, 2014)

ironspider said:


> Yes I'm going to claim that some 3 series are in the reach of most people.  Many people buy a honda accord for over 30k, a toyota camry for over 30k (blows my mind), nissan maxima, vw passat etc.  Yet, you can get a bmw 320i for low 30's, just give up some of the stupid crazy options and you have the best handling car for 30 grand.
> 
> M3, no that is out of reach for most people.  But, If you are leasing you can surely get a 328 xdrive, loaded for a reasonable monthly payment, and NEVER have to worry about maintenance.



Lots of smart people don't do monthly payments and again we are back to reliability. The 300 series BMW doesn't even make the map on reliability or longevity. It comes in slightly better than average reliability

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/BMW_3-Series/Reliability/

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2012/toyota/camry/cost_of_ownership/

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2012/bmw/3_series/328i_sedan/176/cost_of_ownership/

Look at the cost of ownership. Almost double that of a Camry and double the depreciation hit.

From my perspective, most people are going to be better off with the Camry. As people have pointed out, a car for the most part is an appliance that gets you from point a to b.


----------



## firefighterjake (Jan 29, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> I like how this thread went. Gets a good snapshot of various ways to look at different cars. I live a very sheltered life. we could afford a $40,000 car pretty easy. But the better half has about 25,000 in mind.I almost got her talked into trying the Audi Quattro out.but I'll be surprised if that happens. We're at a good place because of her common sense pending



Sounds like your wife is a lot like mine . . . I'm the one who usually has to push her into buying something . . . and even then she is reluctant to spend much money on herself.

And just like you . . . we are in a good place financially because of her habits . . . many of which have rubbed off on me.


----------



## begreen (Jan 29, 2014)

Been buying lipgloss and nail polish lately?


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## begreen (Jan 29, 2014)

Our most recent purchase is a Chevy Volt. It has surprised me how much fun it is to drive. With the low center of gravity due to the battery location, it is a blast. I put better tires on it right away and they make it even sweeter. On the Volt forums there are several beemer drivers that have switched over and say it handles as well. It's giddy feeling l to have a car that sticks like glue to the road and is as silent as a Rolls Phaeton. This car is not for everyone but it fits our driving needs well. The fun factor was unexpected and a delight. In sport mode, when you tell it to get up and go, it goes.


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## ironspider (Jan 29, 2014)

TMonter said:


> Lots of smart people don't do monthly payments and again we are back to reliability. The 300 series BMW doesn't even make the map on reliability or longevity. It comes in slightly better than average reliability
> 
> http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/BMW_3-Series/Reliability/
> 
> ...



Boy where do I start with this one:  "lots of smart people don't do monthly payments". Lots of smart people would disagree including your accountant if you have a business or the financing is low. With rates the way they are, sometimes it's "smarter" to keep your money in the bank. 

I would expect the cost of ownership of a BMW to be three times the cost of a Camry. It's three times the car, the Camry is a boring appliance, the BMW is an exciting machine. 

It's all what you want out of a car. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry, and as a "smart" person, I make payments when it's financially beneficial....ask your accountant!


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jan 29, 2014)

begreen said:


> Our most recent purchase is a Chevy Volt. It has surprised me how much fun it is to drive. .


Great to hear. Iv been following these things since their inception. They are on my Bucket list of things to buy just for fun(using no gas is fun). Im glad to see this car take off and become widely adopted.
Keep us posted on your experience. I visit the gm-volt site almost as much as hearth. Do you still have the Prius? Iv heard a lot of volt buyers are former prius owners.


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## ironspider (Jan 29, 2014)

TMonter said:


> Lots of smart people don't do monthly payments and again we are back to reliability. The 300 series BMW doesn't even make the map on reliability or longevity. It comes in slightly better than average reliability
> 
> http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/BMW_3-Series/Reliability/
> 
> ...



I also need to address your cost of ownership. According to your source the BMW is 44000 over 5 years where the Camry is 30000, so the cost per year to own a great car over a basic POS Jap car is only 2800 more. Come on, if you wouldn't pay an extra 2800 per year to drive a BMW over a Camry you certainly don't deserve one.


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## begreen (Jan 29, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Great to hear. Iv been following these things since their inception. They are on my Bucket list of things to buy just for fun(using no gas is fun). Im glad to see this car take off and become widely adopted.
> Keep us posted on your experience. I visit the gm-volt site almost as much as hearth. Do you still have the Prius? Iv heard a lot of volt buyers are former prius owners.



Prius is gone. It was a reliable economical car, but very boring and not too comfortable for trips.


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## begreen (Jan 29, 2014)

ironspider said:


> I also need to address your cost of ownership. According to your source the BMW is 44000 over 5 years where the Camry is 30000, so the cost per year to own a great car over a basic POS Jap car is only 2800 more. Come on, if you wouldn't pay an extra 2800 per year to drive a BMW over a Camry you certainly don't deserve one.


That seems a bit arrogant. We're not talking Yugos here.  $2800 per year is not chicken feed, especially when raising a family. A large majority of people are very happy with their Japanese cars.  Reliable, economical  transportation without surprises has high value too. Not everyone is an enthusiast.

PS: I own a German vehicle too. It is the most over-engineered vehicle I have ever owned. And as all those relays etc. age, it is getting to be the most expensive vehicle I own too.


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## Hills Hoard (Jan 30, 2014)

its interesting reading this thread from an australian perspective...

Here is an insight into what australians are buying....

*Top 20 Best-selling Vehicles – 2013*


Toyota Corolla – 43,498
Mazda 3 – 42,082
Toyota HiLux – 39,931
Hyundai i30 – 30,582
Holden Commodore – 27,766
Toyota Camry – 24,860
Mitsubishi Triton – 24,512
Holden Cruze – 24,421
Nissan Navara – 24,108
Ford Ranger – 21,752
Mazda CX-5 – 20,129
Ford Focus – 19,180
Hyundai ix35 – 19,086
Volkswagen Golf – 17,342
Holden Colorado – 17,203
Toyota RAV4 – 16,983
Mazda 2 – 15,167
Toyota Prado – 14,568
Ford Territory and Honda Civic – 14,261


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## ironspider (Jan 30, 2014)

Here in the U.S. the best sellers are:

1. Ford F150 of course
2. Chevy Sivlerado
3. Dodge Ram
4. honda accord
5. toyota camry
6. honda civic
7. honda crv
8. nissan altima
9. ford escape
10. for fusion

the list is dominated by jap cars for their affordability, however notice the top three for their utility, NOT affordability.  Not everyone, including myself owns a car for affordability.  Out of the three cars I own, none will be on this list, none will ever be a jap car unless toyota decides to build another supra (but then again, at that price, you can probably go M3).


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## ironspider (Jan 30, 2014)

begreen said:


> That seems a bit arrogant. We're not talking Yugos here.  $2800 per year is not chicken feed, especially when raising a family. A large majority of people are very happy with their Japanese cars.  Reliable, economical  transportation without surprises has high value too. Not everyone is an enthusiast.
> 
> PS: I own a German vehicle too. It is the most over-engineered vehicle I have ever owned. And as all those relays etc. age, it is getting to be the most expensive vehicle I own too.



Yes it is a bit arrogant and was meant to be.  While 2800 isn't chicken feed, in the world of 25-40K cars it's nothing.  

I found myself in a Toyota (whoops) Lexus ES 350, a friend asked me to try to sell it, so i'm driving at about 65 and a car pulls out in front of me.  Trying to get that sluggish horribly handling car to do an emergency maneuver was taking my life in my own hands, I almost lost her.  That doesn't happen in any BMW as they out perform toyota in any emergency situation.  Can you put $2800 per year on that?  How about your wife not getting stranded late at night with a flat tire?  Even if she can change a tire, lets pray a drunk doesn't lose concentration and plow into the back of her.  That doesn't happen in a BMW, they come standard with newly improved run-flats, you just don't stop until you get home.  Is that worth 2800 per year for a little piece of mind?

The BMW can stop in an emergency situation in 107 feet from 60 mph, the camry takes a snails pace at 119 ft., that's more than a full car (camry) length, that could be deadly.  That's a huge difference, is that worth 2800?

Sorry about the arrogance, but I get all worked up about cars.


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## jharkin (Jan 30, 2014)

Ironspider you really need to chill out chill man. You are showing the kinda arrogant attitude a lot of BMW / Merc drivers I meet in the corporate world have that makes me sick. Drop the superiority vibe OK?

Nobody is debating the bimmer is a fun car, but looked at for practical transportation purposes it looses on most accounts ( cost, reliability, etc).   And sorry, but unless you run a small business and can write off the lease, leasing is not cheaper than owning long term... Not by a long shot. The car companies are really good at marketing it though to sell unsuspecting folks cars they really can't afford and keep them trapped into being repeat customers every 2 years.

I'm a car guy too, and if it was a weekender car I'd buy a used M3 or a Porsche Boxter or such. But for transportation my family has to trust daily I wouldn't touch one.  I've even  met BMW mechanics who feel the same way. Heck even Mike Miller himself doesnt reccomend buying a new BMW in his own tech talk column in the Roundel! (I was a CCA member at one point I've seen it first hand)


----------



## hockeypuck (Jan 30, 2014)

Joke of the day.   What's the difference between a cactus and a  BMW?


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## ironspider (Jan 30, 2014)

Pricks on the inside


----------



## ironspider (Jan 30, 2014)

jharkin said:


> Ironspider you really need to chill out chill man. You are showing the kinda arrogant attitude a lot of BMW / Merc drivers I meet in the corporate world have that makes me sick. Drop the superiority vibe OK?
> 
> Nobody is debating the bimmer is a fun car, but looked at for practical transportation purposes it looses on most accounts ( cost, reliability, etc).   And sorry, but unless you run a small business and can write off the lease, leasing is not cheaper than owning long term... Not by a long shot. The car companies are really good at marketing it though to sell unsuspecting folks cars they really can't afford and keep them trapped into being repeat customers every 2 years.
> 
> I'm a car guy too, and if it was a weekender car I'd buy a used M3 or a Porsche Boxter or such. But for transportation my family has to trust daily I wouldn't touch one.  I've even  met BMW mechanics who feel the same way. Heck even Mike Miller himself doesnt reccomend buying a new BMW in his own tech talk column in the Roundel! (I was a CCA member at one point I've seen it first hand)



Understood, however I don't look at or drive cars like an appliance, I don't care about the cost of ownership, I want a fun, exhilarating drive that is also safe.


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## jharkin (Jan 30, 2014)

ironspider said:


> Understood, however I don't look at or drive cars like an appliance, I don't care about the cost of ownership, I want a fun, exhilarating drive that is also safe.



thanks. I do get that, trust me... its just your tone earlier came off as looking down upon anyone who doesn't feel the same... that's what bugged me and others.

Heck Id be driving something European myself if cars where my only hobby, but right now Ive got a woodstove and and an old antique house that are both the homeowner equivalent a tempramental British car to deal with!  Not to mention other time consuming tinkering hobbies.... so I'm busy enough I have to pick my battles.  For now reliability wins over fun in my garage.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 30, 2014)

begreen said:


> Been buying lipgloss and nail polish lately?


 

I'm not sure if my wife has ever used lip stick or nail polish . . . she is most definitely not a princess as she is not a dress wearing, nails-need-to-be-done, dress-to-the-9s sort of woman . . . but to me she will always be the most beautiful woman in the world. When she laughs her eyes sparkle . . .


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## flyingcow (Jan 30, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> I'm not sure if my wife has ever used lip stick or nail polish . . . she is most definitely not a princess as she is not a dress wearing, nails-need-to-be-done, dress-to-the-9s sort of woman . . . but to me she will always be the most beautiful woman in the world. When she laughs her eyes sparkle . . .




Looks like she has access to hearth.com too??  

Just kidding, happy husband.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 30, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> Looks like she has access to hearth.com too??
> 
> Just kidding, happy husband.


 

Actually she makes fun of me for always being logged on here . . . and if she knew what I wrote about her she would just roll her eyes and say something sarcastic about me being blind or needing to get new glasses.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 30, 2014)

I happy with my good old american Silverado ,nobody makes a better one,not british, not japanese. And if there is snow,Yea its a lot of fun to drive. The rest of the year it has 2 ton of wood on the back.


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## TMonter (Jan 30, 2014)

ironspider said:


> Boy where do I start with this one:  "lots of smart people don't do monthly payments". Lots of smart people would disagree including your accountant if you have a business or the financing is low. With rates the way they are, sometimes it's "smarter" to keep your money in the bank.
> 
> I would expect the cost of ownership of a BMW to be three times the cost of a Camry. It's three times the car, the Camry is a boring appliance, the BMW is an exciting machine.
> 
> It's all what you want out of a car. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry, and as a "smart" person, I make payments when it's financially beneficial....ask your accountant!



Leasing or purchasing a new car is ALWAYS a losing proposition. If you want to lease a car because you want to change cars every few years fine, but don't pretend it's a financially smart move, it's not.

If you are claiming the car is to be a toy, one should only pay cash for toys.


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## jharkin (Jan 30, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> Actually she makes fun of me for always being logged on here . . . and if she knew what I wrote about her she would just roll her eyes and say something sarcastic about me being blind or needing to get new glasses.



Sounds familiar........


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## ironspider (Jan 30, 2014)

TMonter said:


> Leasing or purchasing a new car is ALWAYS a losing proposition.
> 
> If you claiming the car is to be a toy, one should only pay cash for toys.




A car is a piece of depreciating equipment so of course you are paying to use it whether you finance it, lease it or pay cash.  My point is, for every person there is the right way to pay for a car, cash is not always the best way.  Everybody has different situations.   

Rather than toy, lets say a multi purpose piece of equipment.  I call all my tools toys too, even my tractor is a toy, so is my log splitter.


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## begreen (Jan 30, 2014)

ironspider said:


> Here in the U.S. the best sellers are:
> 
> 1. Ford F150 of course
> 2. Chevy Sivlerado
> ...



Dominated by the most* reliable* cars, not the cheapest. The Japanese raised the bar high on reliability. And I for one am glad they did.


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## jharkin (Jan 30, 2014)

begreen said:


> Dominated by the most* reliable* cars, not the cheapest. The Japanese raised the bar high on reliability. And I for one am glad they did.



Yep, and its impressive to see the giant improvements the American automakers have made as well.  Its great for the industry.


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## begreen (Jan 30, 2014)

Indeed. Our Volt is the first American car (not truck) that we've owned since 1974. And it's made in Detroit. That feels good.


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## bassJAM (Jan 30, 2014)

begreen said:


> Dominated by the most* reliable* cars, not the cheapest. The Japanese raised the bar high on reliability. And I for one am glad they did.



Dominated by stubborn people who think they need a 1/2 ton truck to commute back and forth to work, followed by reliable cars lol.

Yeah, the American OEMs are starting to catch up, not enough that I'm ready to go back yet.  I'm curious how the truck market will pan out since Nissan and Toyota finally got serious about 1/2 trucks too.  They already own the compact/midsized market so well that the Big Three have pretty much given up and focused on full size.  It could be an interesting battle since Ford and GM do NOT want to have their flagship vehicles stood up, and Nissan and Toyota still have some convincing to do that their offerings will stand up to real work.


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## Retired Guy (Jan 30, 2014)

I have driven on a lot of highways populated with folks that view driving as a sport. Somewhat like swimming with sharks.


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## ironspider (Jan 30, 2014)

Retired Guy said:


> I have driven on a lot of highways populated with folks that view driving as a sport. Somewhat like swimming with sharks.



That would be me.  When there is traffic, I don't see cars, i see cones.


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## bassJAM (Jan 30, 2014)

ironspider said:


> That would be me.  When there is traffic, I don't see cars, i see cones.



Me too.  I don't know the exact amount, but I'm either at or really close to 20 speeding tickets.  No accidents though (at least in a car, motorcycle is another story but there isn't a "record" so it never happened!).


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## jharkin (Jan 30, 2014)

Wow, around here with a record like that you'd be riding the bus.  3 tickets in a year and you loose your license.  Big hit on the insurance even when you get your license back.


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## bassJAM (Jan 30, 2014)

Yeah, I got 3 in a year once and lost my license for 3 months.  My insurance has never been cheap either, I think my first ticket came about a month after getting my license and my record hasn't been clean since.  Close to 400,000 miles of driving and no accidents, yet I'm a more dangerous statistic than the soccer mom texting her kids in the lane over or the mid life crisis guy in the Bimmer erratically changing lanes and who just cut us both off.

I really dislike cops and insurance companies.


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## Retired Guy (Jan 30, 2014)

More da


bassJAM said:


> Yeah, I got 3 in a year once and lost my license for 3 months.  My insurance has never been cheap either, I think my first ticket came about a month after getting my license and my record hasn't been clean since.  Close to 400,000 miles of driving and no accidents, yet I'm a more dangerous statistic than the soccer mom texting her kids in the lane over or the mid life crisis guy in the Bimmer erratically changing lanes and who just cut us both off.
> 
> I really dislike cops and insurance companies.


20 speeding tickets! More dangerous than the statistics show.


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## Treacherous (Jan 30, 2014)

ironspider said:


> if you are buying an Infiniti you are buying a Nissan. Same chassis mostly the same parts just nicer wood and leather and more chrome.



Rear wheel drive Nissan & Infiniti (cars) are still made in Japan if that matters.   IMO...the European makes are great until the lease is up or the warranty expires. 

I've had a lot of fun with my '07 G35X.  The VQ35HR is a major improvement over the VQ35DE.  I've already seen a few on the forums with over 200K miles.


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## rwthomas1 (Jan 30, 2014)

TMonter said:


> I beg to differ, BMW's and Audi's both have horrible long term quality issues and at the 10 year mark have as many creaks and rattles.
> 
> There is a reason the German cars lose value more quickly than their other counterparts.
> 
> A high dollar performance car that lasts a few years and is fun to drive, and then promptly becomes a maintenance headache while cool does not inspire confidence in their engineering capabilities in my book.



You are full of it.  Period.  I've had VW's, BMW's and MB's (no Audi's). All of them purchased used.  All of them owned past 200k, with a few to 300k, and not ONE of them had rattles and creaks.  In fact, correctly maintained, they drove "as new".  Cars, like anything else need proper care, and most people have no idea.  The are forums for every brand where anyone can find everything they need to know about any car.  The good, the bad and most importantly how to fix or at least educate yourself so you don't get screwed by the repair shop.


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## rwthomas1 (Jan 30, 2014)

TMonter said:


> The "japanese" (since many of them are made in the country they are sold in)  cars do better on a regular maintenance schedule as well. It's more than just requiring attention it's the rapid pace at which past a certain age the German cars seem to require excessive maintenance and not to mention the cost of the parts. Something as simple as a coil pack will often cost 2-3x as much on a german car than a japanese car.
> 
> http://corp.carmd.com/2013-manufacturer-vehicle-ranking.htm?subId=232
> 
> ...




Again, what are you talking about?  Go buy a maf sensor for a Toyota and then go buy one for a BMW.  You are more likely to be screwed at either dealer, but you will then find out that the euro parts wholesalers, local and online, have better pricing than what you will find for any Japanese brand.  I can buy BMW synthetic oil cheaper at the dealer than the local parts store!  Try it yourself, its rebottled Castrol synthetic from Europe for a buck less than anywhere else you can buy it.  Brakes for my 540 6speed?  How about $75 a wheel, rotor and pads?  That's an expensive v8 performance sedan.... Not!  Sorry, but when the Toyota needs, it costs at least as much and usually more than any German I've owned.


----------



## rwthomas1 (Jan 30, 2014)

ironspider said:


> Boy where do I start with this one:  "lots of smart people don't do monthly payments". Lots of smart people would disagree including your accountant if you have a business or the financing is low. With rates the way they are, sometimes it's "smarter" to keep your money in the bank.
> 
> I would expect the cost of ownership of a BMW to be three times the cost of a Camry. It's three times the car, the Camry is a boring appliance, the BMW is an exciting machine.
> 
> It's all what you want out of a car. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry, and as a "smart" person, I make payments when it's financially beneficial....ask your accountant!



Funny, my accountant has always said "Never purchase a vehicle just for a write off, if you need it, sure, but the tax break won't justify the purchase". Funny, I hate payments, all extra money is put towards debt.  House, cars and business assets owned outright, small loan on boat, but I triple pay on that.  Low overhead is the name of the game.

If you maintain the Camry and the 3 series at their respective dealers, then maybe.  But if you purchase a CPO 3 series and service at a reputable independent import shop I'm willing to bet the bummer won't cost that much more.

Granted, no one touches my cars but me, so idk about shops or warranties.....


----------



## rwthomas1 (Jan 30, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I happy with my good old american Silverado ,nobody makes a better one,not british, not japanese. And if there is snow,Yea its a lot of fun to drive. The rest of the year it has 2 ton of wood on the back.



Funny, I've had 6 gm trucks and they have been hands down the most reliable and cheapest to operate vehicles I've ever owned.  Granted, I usually buy the base truck without the bells and whistles so there isn't much to go wrong.


----------



## rwthomas1 (Jan 30, 2014)

bassJAM said:


> Dominated by stubborn people who think they need a 1/2 ton truck to commute back and forth to work, followed by reliable cars lol.
> 
> Yeah, the American OEMs are starting to catch up, not enough that I'm ready to go back yet.  I'm curious how the truck market will pan out since Nissan and Toyota finally got serious about 1/2 trucks too.  They already own the compact/midsized market so well that the Big Three have pretty much given up and focused on full size.  It could be an interesting battle since Ford and GM do NOT want to have their flagship vehicles stood up, and Nissan and Toyota still have some convincing to do that their offerings will stand up to real work.




I'm one of those people that actually use their truck for work.  The big three own the work truck world.  Toyota has made some inroads recenctly , I've seen more of them being worked BUT I've also heard a fair share of bitching about problems with them too.  The Tundra should be better given how expensive it is.  Titan?!  That's not a work truck!  Never even seen one on a job site or lumberyard.....  There are a lot of those really ugly Nissan vans about however.


----------



## Dustin92 (Jan 31, 2014)

I would recommend you take a look at (don't laugh!) a 2000-2005 Chevy Impala. I have a 2003 and love it. Mine has 174,000 miles and plenty left, 200,000 is nothing on a properly maintained Impala. I even saw one with over 300,000. Mine rides and drives like a luxury car, smooth and quiet, good on gas (I have gotten up to 31 mpg!), plenty of power (mine is the base model with the smaller engine), plenty of interior room and a huge trunk. Mine has almost no rust (I live in Michigan), and what rust it has is surface rust that will be taken care of in the spring. I have never owned a more reliable car either, in a year, 11,000 miles, the only repair it needed was a $20 water pump (and that is with 174k miles). If you look at one, have a mechanic check it out, they can have some issues, but so can any vehicle.


----------



## ironspider (Jan 31, 2014)

rwthomas1 said:


> Funny, my accountant has always said "Never purchase a vehicle just for a write off, if you need it, sure, but the tax break won't justify the purchase". Funny, I hate payments, all extra money is put towards debt.  House, cars and business assets owned outright, small loan on boat, but I triple pay on that.  Low overhead is the name of the game.
> 
> If you maintain the Camry and the 3 series at their respective dealers, then maybe.  But if you purchase a CPO 3 series and service at a reputable independent import shop I'm willing to bet the bummer won't cost that much more.
> 
> Granted, no one touches my cars but me, so idk about shops or warranties.....



Of course you never get one simply for the write off, bit if you need it, lease it.


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## flyingcow (Jan 31, 2014)

Dustin92 said:


> I would recommend you take a look at (don't laugh!) a 2000-2005 Chevy Impala. I have a 2003 and love it. Mine has 174,000 miles and plenty left, 200,000 is nothing on a properly maintained Impala. I even saw one with over 300,000. Mine rides and drives like a luxury car, smooth and quiet, good on gas (I have gotten up to 31 mpg!), plenty of power (mine is the base model with the smaller engine), plenty of interior room and a huge trunk. Mine has almost no rust (I live in Michigan), and what rust it has is surface rust that will be taken care of in the spring. I have never owned a more reliable car either, in a year, 11,000 miles, the only repair it needed was a $20 water pump (and that is with 174k miles). If you look at one, have a mechanic check it out, they can have some issues, but so can any vehicle.




We did look at the Impala and Malibu. Comfortable cars. She's not written them off, but still leaning towards the Camry or maybe even Corolla.  Might have to take another afternoon and look around. We generally keep vehicles 8 to 10 yrs.


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## jharkin (Jan 31, 2014)

Its funny how German car drivers always seem to get so defensive when their reliability or practicality is questioned, and make excuses like they break down so much because people don't know how to change oil (I still don't know how fluid changes are related to the problematic electronics that plague them but oh well).


Look, guys its perfectly OK to admit they not reliable cars and thats not why you like them. Its OK to admit you buy for the performance and style rather than dependability.


I'll freely admit I buy Hondas for the reliability, trouble free driving and low long term cost, not for the driving dynamics.  


Maybe its time for this thread to die, we are a thousand miles off the OP and talking in circles.


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## jebatty (Jan 31, 2014)

Hoping to avoid beating a dead horse, but a word on "properly maintained." As said before, all we have owned since 1986 is 4-cyl Camrys. I do all oil/filter changes and tire rotations myself, every 5000 miles, also replace tires as needed. I skip all scheduled warranty service based on experience: nothing ever goes wrong. About every 60-120,000 miles I bring the Camry in for what would be a 60,000 mile scheduled service, cost for that is about $4-500 currently. That's it.

I figure a car should cost no more than $0.10/mile to recoup the purchase price plus the cost of service/repairs, not including oil/filter, tires, wiper blades, things like that. Our 2005 Camry bought used with 22,900 miles and paid $14,500. Serviced otherwise only three times, all at the dealer, with total cost of $1,330. Total cost + service = $15,830. Mileage now just passed the 185,000 mile mark. Total miles we have owned the Camry = 162,100, the Camry now is 9 years old (18,000 miles/year our ownership), and cost/mile now is less than $0.10. And highway mpg for the 2005 is 32-33. 

The BMW 3 series, favorably mentioned in numerous posts, is a highly rated car. New 2014 price is $32-45,000; mpg on a par with the 2005 Camry. Take an average new price of $38,000 for the BMW. On my "cost" scale, I would have to drive this car for a minimum of 380,000 miles just to recoup the purchase price, and the cost of required service over this time period is ???, certainly well over the Camry cost of service. At 15,000 miles/year, that's 25 years of driving just to recoup the purchase price. Own and drive a car for 25 years as primary transportation? Not going to happen. I'm not dishing the BMW, but for good and economical transportation, its a money pit. For fun and enjoyment for the first few years of ownership, maybe can't be beat, but at a very high price. 

We all make our choices. My preference as to cars, save the money and retire early; there are many things a whole lot more fun to be doing than spending hours in an expensive car. Now, if you have money to burn, go ahead and do it. I never had that luxury.


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## jharkin (Jan 31, 2014)

On my 11 year old Acura, I have never needed to bring it in for dealer service, ever.  I do my own 5,000 mile oil changes and rotations, and every 30k I do the transmission fluid and a flush/fill on the radiator (changes half the fluid).  I just put in battery #2 out of habit not that it needed it, and also just changed the serpentine belt thinking after 11 years it just has to be tired, not any symptoms. Brakes Ive done myself a couple times.

Other than that over the past 11 years its only had 4 unplanned issues, all I fixed myself.  The secondary O2 sensor burned out around 60k (10 min, $100 part), an electric door lock actuator went a few years ago ($40 and an hours work) and the catalytic converter heatshield rusted out from road salt.  Most folks would rip that off but Im anal and bolted on a new one. A couple months ago the idle got erratic, turned out to just be a dirty throttle body that my local indie shop cleaned out  and didnt charge me.


The 3 series is actually the most reliable car BMW makes, and gets average or slightly above average ratings in JDPower.  5s and 7s do far worse. Most Hondas and Toyotas on the other hand get 5 start ratings.  True that during the BMW warranty you get free service, but they only do 15k oil changes, and people who keep them past warranty usually are enthusiasts who follow the mike miller schedule and end up doing their own intermediate oil changes out of pocket every 5k.  Mike millers schedule also calls for a full cooling system overhaul including new hoses, water pump and thermostat at 60k.  Most Japanese cars Ive owned you just do the pump when the timing belt comes up at 100k, and that's only for convenience, they rarely actaully go bad.  then you have the fact that BMWs dont even have oil dipsticks anymore, the newest ones have ZF sealed trannies that cant get a fluid change without dealer tools, and you cant even replace the battery in one without a trip to the dealer to reprogram the ECU!  As a home mechanic all these are a big turnoff to me.  And we havent talked about the Vanos problems, failure prone coil packs, the HPFP issues, the Z4s that would have the rear subframe crack around the suspension mounts because the sheetmetal was too thin, and on and on.

If you can get a new one in the 30s you are buying a complete stripper with the "leatherette" aka vinyl interior.  If I am buying a car in that range I want real leather, the moonroof, the sport package etc.  I was pricing them out a couple years ago and the best I could do in a 328i configuration I liked was low/mid 40s. Its easy to get a 328 into the 50s and a 335 oculd push 60k when you pile on options. Its fun to play around with the configurator and I do have to say if I ever did buy one the European delivery option sounds like an absolute blast.  But I just cant justify that with my current family situation


Like Ive said before, for a weekender fun car, Id buy a 3.  But it would be a natural aspirated straight 6, 6 speed.  Probably an E46 330i.


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## bassJAM (Jan 31, 2014)

rwthomas1 said:


> I'm one of those people that actually use their truck for work.  The big three own the work truck world.  Toyota has made some inroads recenctly , I've seen more of them being worked BUT I've also heard a fair share of bitching about problems with them too.  The Tundra should be better given how expensive it is.  Titan?!  That's not a work truck!  Never even seen one on a job site or lumberyard.....  There are a lot of those really ugly Nissan vans about however.



Around here I see just about as many Titan's as Tundras being worked, I see both as fleet trucks as well.  They are both very solid trucks with great drivetrains (well, Nissan's Dana 44 isn't that great) but I'll admit reliability isn't up to Japanese par.  Still, not any worse than the Big 3 has to offer.  I think the Japanese are still learning how American's use trucks and the abuse those that are actually worked can be put through, it'll be interesting to see what they bring out for a 2nd gen on both.


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## flyingcow (Jan 31, 2014)

I 've always changed the tranny fluid every 30k, serpentine belt every60k, etc those things pay off.


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## Retired Guy (Jan 31, 2014)

Japanese technology is pretty good.
http://www.gizmag.com/nissan-zeod-r...ail&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-cbdab42c9c-91199729


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## TMonter (Jan 31, 2014)

ironspider said:


> The BMW can stop in an emergency situation in 107 feet from 60 mph, the camry takes a snails pace at 119 ft., that's more than a full car (camry) length, that could be deadly. That's a huge difference, is that worth 2800?





rwthomas1 said:


> Again, what are you talking about?  Go buy a maf sensor for a Toyota and then go buy one for a BMW.  You are more likely to be screwed at either dealer, but you will then find out that the euro parts wholesalers, local and online, have better pricing than what you will find for any Japanese brand.  I can buy BMW synthetic oil cheaper at the dealer than the local parts store!  Try it yourself, its rebottled Castrol synthetic from Europe for a buck less than anywhere else you can buy it.  Brakes for my 540 6speed?  How about $75 a wheel, rotor and pads?  That's an expensive v8 performance sedan.... Not!  Sorry, but when the Toyota needs, it costs at least as much and usually more than any German I've owned.



For a single car yes, but when yo go across the board and when you consider most people don't do their own maintenance the picture is different.

For example the cheapest I could find for new brakes on my wife's van this last summer for around 450 bucks for all 4 wheels. I did all 4 with new front rotors and having the rear brakes turned for under $150. That included shoes for the rear, pads for the front, rotors, wheel cylinders for the rear and new brake fluid.

On average the euro cars are more expensive to fix and the numbers prove this out.


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## rwthomas1 (Jan 31, 2014)

Well, we all drive what we like or need to I suppose.....  I'll keep my German iron, thanks.  Just do me a favor and keep those Camrys out of MY left lane!


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## ironspider (Feb 1, 2014)

rwthomas1 said:


> Well, we all drive what we like or need to I suppose.....  I'll keep my German iron, thanks.  Just do me a favor and keep those Camrys out of MY left lane!



Amen to that


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## jharkin (Feb 1, 2014)

You guys just can't resist can you ....


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## jebatty (Feb 1, 2014)

> I'll keep my German iron, thanks. Just do me a favor and keep those Camrys out of MY left lane!


Looks like some friendly passive aggression being expressed. Achtung!


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## jharkin (Feb 1, 2014)

Deutschland uber alles!


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## Retired Guy (Feb 2, 2014)

This is starting to remind me of the management-union negotiations on an episode of "Murphy Brown"


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