# Sense Energy Monitor



## mellow (May 15, 2018)

I have been meaning to post about this for a few months now but always forget.  I installed it back in January and it has helped me find quite a few energy hogs and pushed me to changing over to LED for the entire (new to me) house.

I was going to buy the TED system but went with this instead and overall I am happy so far.  The device detection could be better (they are working on it) but the numbers match up with what my electric company says I am using so I am able to forecast what my bill will be which is a huge help.

The guys with solar hooked up to it are on the fence, I don't have solar yet so I can't recommend it for that.  

https://sense.com/


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## semipro (May 26, 2018)

I've wondered how well these would work.  The concept is ingenious but I'd think that differentiating some devices from others based only on the the power use signal that it monitors would be tough.  For example, I have two water heaters that are the same model and size yet they serve different parts of the house.  How would I know which was being used based only on its electrical use signature? 

Thanks for sharing.


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## georgepds (May 26, 2018)

As I installed new energy hogs ( two heat pumps and a volt electric car charger) I would install Hialeah ez read meter to track use. The srec 1&2pv arrays each have their own meter

Result... heat pumps sip energy, the car charger gobbles it


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## begreen (May 26, 2018)

We have an eGauge. It is pricey, but has been reliable for the past 5 or so years. 
https://www.egauge.net/


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## mellow (May 29, 2018)

I have two of the same garage door openers, it does not split them apart, but that is OK to me as I can still see what the both of them use combined for power.  Some things it still has yet to detect like my fridge and tv's but it is detecting new devices every week or so, the fun part is tracking them down as it will say it is "Motor 1" but it won't tell me what it is but it gives me a list of possible devices and a % of what Motor 1 was in other homes.  My big power hogs like the water heater and hvac were picked up within the first couple weeks.

Another nice thing is I can better estimate what my power bill will be for that month.


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## maple1 (May 29, 2018)

What's the MSRP?

I'm happy with my Effergy - but that looks pretty darn neat.


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## mellow (May 30, 2018)

Not the cheapest, $299 and Solar adds $50.   The install wasn't to bad, the hardest thing was finding a spare 220 circuit I could dedicate to it.  The clamp install was easy.


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## maple1 (May 30, 2018)

Ok, ya that's up there - and didn't realize it also needed a 220/240 circuit. That seems a bit odd. Pretty neat though, regardless.


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## mellow (May 30, 2018)

You can share a 220 but it is better to have a dedicated one, it uses that and the clamps to read the difference in the electrical signatures and to power the unit (it doesn't use much power itself).


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## Ashful (May 30, 2018)

mellow said:


> You can share a 220 but it is better to have a dedicated one, it uses that and the clamps to read the difference in the electrical signatures and to power the unit (it doesn't use much power itself).



How would you legally tap two devices off the same breaker?  My recollection is no wiring junctions permitted within a breaker panel, and double-stabbing a breaker is also disallowed.


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## mellow (May 30, 2018)

As per their install instructions: 

Connect the power 
Connect the black wire and the red wire to an empty 240V breaker and the white wire to the neutral bus bar. Sense draws less than 0.1A, so you should use the smallest 240V breaker available for your panel.

Don’t have an empty breaker? 
Connect to an existing or add a new 240V breaker. Do not use a tandem breaker, unless it is 240V. Learn more at help.sense.com.


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## Highbeam (May 30, 2018)

Oh no, you can have junctions and wire nuts in the can (panel box). You can certainly have more than one “load” per 240 breaker. Some devices require dedicated circuits but they’re specific.


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## mellow (May 31, 2018)

Here is one for you guys, I thought I heard my water pump running early this morning or I was dreaming.  Sometimes the kids don't turn the hose fully off and waste water and electric with the pump running all the time.  I remembered about it at work and it's great to able to check from anywhere my usage and make sure.




Looks like they did turn it off.


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## maple1 (May 31, 2018)

33 times on - holy crap. I should pay more attention to ours, maybe. The start up load is big - likely getting a bigger cushion tank should be on my radar.


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## begreen (May 31, 2018)

mellow said:


> Here is one for you guys, I thought I heard my water pump running early this morning or I was dreaming.  Sometimes the kids don't turn the hose fully off and waste water and electric with the pump running all the time.  I remembered about it at work and it's great to able to check from anywhere my usage and make sure.
> 
> View attachment 227026
> 
> ...


Might check the pressure tank. Bladder may need air or if it's getting waterlogged the tank may need replacement, especially if it's undersized.


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## Ashful (May 31, 2018)

At 6 minutes over 33 starts, it’s running just 10 seconds per start.  Definitely a tank problem, not just kids leaving a hose on.  Even with no concurrent draw, it should take more than 10 seconds to fill a tank, on a typically-configured system.


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## BrotherBart (May 31, 2018)

When that happened with my well pump the check valve down in the well on the pump had corroded. So it was pumping up the tank, draining back down into the well and doing it all over again over and over. Caught it because of the high KwH usage on the efergy.

It happened early in the billing period. If not for the monitor I would  have had to take out a second mortgage to pay the electric bill.


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## Highbeam (Jun 1, 2018)

BrotherBart said:


> When that happened with my well pump the check valve down in the well on the pump had corroded. So it was pumping up the tank, draining back down into the well and doing it all over again over and over. Caught it because of the high KwH usage on the efergy.
> 
> It happened early in the billing period. If not for the monitor I would  have had to take out a second mortgage to pay the electric bill.



Seen this too. Also very common is a corrosion hole in the downpipe from the pump to the well head. Same result of pressure leaking into the casing until the pressure switch kicks the well back on.


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## semipro (Jun 2, 2018)

mellow said:


> I have two of the same garage door openers, it does not split them apart, but that is OK to me as I can still see what the both of them use combined for power.  Some things it still has yet to detect like my fridge and tv's but it is detecting new devices every week or so, the fun part is tracking them down as it will say it is "Motor 1" but it won't tell me what it is but it gives me a list of possible devices and a % of what Motor 1 was in other homes.  My big power hogs like the water heater and hvac were picked up within the first couple weeks.
> 
> Another nice thing is I can better estimate what my power bill will be for that month.


Seems like it should have a "training" mode where you can turn something on manually and then register that device  within the Sense when the load is detected. Of course you might need to turn off all the other breakers to avoid confounds.


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## mellow (Jun 4, 2018)

Maybe that graph is deceiving but that is from 12:01am to 10am.  Several showers were taken hence the green bump in the graph around 7am from the pump running.  It is a brand new gould pump and tank is fine, not bleeding any pressure, it was saying it was on for 5 minutes over the 10 hours.


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## mellow (Jun 4, 2018)

semipro said:


> Seems like it should have a "training" mode where you can turn something on manually and then register that device  within the Sense when the load is detected. Of course you might need to turn off all the other breakers to avoid confounds.



Yea, we are trying to get the engineers at Sense to allow access so we can "train" it.  Apparently there is much more that happens behind the scene with the AI than we are aware of since it is a crowdsourced AI.


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## peakbagger (Jun 4, 2018)

Ashful said:


> How would you legally tap two devices off the same breaker? My recollection is no wiring junctions permitted within a breaker panel, and double-stabbing a breaker is also disallowed



Sorry for missing this one. As someone else replied, code allows multiple circuit's to be fed from one breaker. The key thing which is not code is unless the breaker lugs are rated for multiple wires (very rare, darn close to non existent) you can only have one wire per lug on the breaker. So you just run a short wire from a lug on the breaker to a suitable wire nut somewhere in the panel and then connect two or more circuits.

Note that PV circuits are an exception and need to be connected to a dedicated breaker permanently labeled with no other circuits on the breaker. On most panels, the PV breaker also needs to be installed at the farthest location away from the incoming feeder breaker.


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## Ashful (Jun 4, 2018)

mellow said:


> Maybe that graph is deceiving but that is from 12:01am to 10am.  Several showers were taken hence the green bump in the graph around 7am from the pump running.  It is a brand new gould pump and tank is fine, not bleeding any pressure, it was saying it was on for 5 minutes over the 10 hours.


I got that, but what I say remains.  33 starts at an average of 10 seconds run time each, seems to indicate a problem.  I'm used to a well tank taking somewhere beyond a minute to fill.

Quick math, if your pump is rated 10 GPM at its set depth and pressure, it would take 2 minutes to fill an average expansion tank with a 20 gallon drawdown rating, and that's with no appliance running.  Now, add a shower a 2 GPM, and it will take 2.5 minutes for the same tank fill.

How do you get a total run time of 5 minutes with 33 pump starts?


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## mellow (Jun 4, 2018)

I have the pump set at a lower psi, it kicks off at around 50psi and on at 35psi so it cycles quickly but more often.


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## Ashful (Jun 4, 2018)

Wouldn’t setting it up in any way that it must start and stop more frequently (esp. 33x in 10 hours, at 10 seconds per start) be a great way to shorten pump life and maximize electrical usage?

I’d be thinking you’d be justified in going about 30x larger on your storage tank, such that you can have two long fills per day.


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## georgepds (Jun 5, 2018)

"As someone else replied, code allows multiple circuit's to be fed from one breaker. The key thing which is not code is unless the breaker lugs are rated for multiple wires (very rare, darn close to non existent) you can only have one wire per lug on the breaker. So you just run a short wire from a lug on the breaker to a suitable wire nut somewhere in the panel and then connect two or more circuits."

I thought the electric code required each wire nut connection to be in its own metal box


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## Ashful (Jun 5, 2018)

georgepds said:


> I thought the electric code required each wire nut connection to be in its own metal box



No, I looked this up in the code, and it is actually allowed, but not recommended.  Electricians with whom I’ve worked are so against the idea of wire nuts in the cabinet that they won’t do it, and I’ve had one inspector actually misrepresent the practice as disallowed, so I incorrectly took that as gospel.  It is allowed, but widely considered poor practice, as breaker cabinets are already too congested and hard to trace.


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## Highbeam (Jun 5, 2018)

georgepds said:


> "As someone else replied, code allows multiple circuit's to be fed from one breaker. The key thing which is not code is unless the breaker lugs are rated for multiple wires (very rare, darn close to non existent) you can only have one wire per lug on the breaker. So you just run a short wire from a lug on the breaker to a suitable wire nut somewhere in the panel and then connect two or more circuits."
> 
> I thought the electric code required each wire nut connection to be in its own metal box



Nope. Nuts in the panel are fine and metal boxes are seldom required either. Plastic is great!


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## mellow (Jun 7, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Wouldn’t setting it up in any way that it must start and stop more frequently (esp. 33x in 10 hours, at 10 seconds per start) be a great way to shorten pump life and maximize electrical usage?
> 
> I’d be thinking you’d be justified in going about 30x larger on your storage tank, such that you can have two long fills per day.



You might be right, this is a new to me house so I will have to look further into that.  Right after closing I went to the house to find the old Gould pump had died, when they did inspections they didn't prime the pump first (foreclosure so the house had been sitting for a while) and apparently burned out the pump while it was priming and it lasted long enough to get the inspections done.  After that got fixed I found all kinds of leaks in the plumbing, got them all fixed but it was a rough first couple of months. It has a 20 gallon storage tank right now and it has pressure so the bladder is fine, will have to see if I can squeeze a bigger storage tank through the crawl space door.


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## Ashful (Jun 7, 2018)

mellow said:


> You might be right, this is a new to me house so I will have to look further into that.  Right after closing I went to the house to find the old Gould pump had died, when they did inspections they didn't prime the pump first (foreclosure so the house had been sitting for a while) and apparently burned out the pump while it was priming and it lasted long enough to get the inspections done.  After that got fixed I found all kinds of leaks in the plumbing, got them all fixed but it was a rough first couple of months. It has a 20 gallon storage tank right now and it has pressure so the bladder is fine, will have to see if I can squeeze a bigger storage tank through the crawl space door.



A 20 gallon tank is mighty small (typically 5 gallon drawdown rating at 40-60 psi), but something still isn’t adding up, here.  If the tank is indeed good, then I suspect it’s adjusted to the wrong pressure.

Most residential well pumps are chosen to be 10 - 12 gallons per minute at rated depth.  A 20 gallon storage tank is going to have a drawdown of 5 - 7 gallons depending on specific model and what pressure range you’re running (20-40 psi will get you more drawdown than 40-60 psi).  Either way, you’re looking at a typical fill of a half minute, if the system is set up and functioning correctly.  Ten seconds is just way off the chart.

List as much of the following as you can figure out, and we can probably get to the bottom of this:

1.  Pressure tank model no.
2.  Drain well tank and get a pressure reading on the valve on top.  Make sure you’re using a gauge that puts the reading in the 25% - 75% on the dial, so it’s accurate.
3.  Well pump info:  rated GPM at depth and pressure, or well pump model number and depth.
4.  Pressure switch rating, at a minimum.  If you’re actually able to measure water pressure at switch in/out, that’s even better.

Based on my very limited experience (my own few houses), I’d be willing to bet 75% of wells are set up wrong, which is a crime.  You want that drained pressure tank bladder charged to within 2 psi of your switch cut-in setting, to achieve proper draw-down rating.  This is pretty easy stuff to get right.


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## mellow (Jun 7, 2018)

I am sure that is probably an issue, I did not calibrate the new pump when I put it in to the pressure tank, I was told not to mess with it if it worked since it is a bit tricky to calibrate the both.  I will start a new topic about it once I go under the house and get some info.


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## Ashful (Jun 7, 2018)

mellow said:


> I am sure that is probably an issue, I did not calibrate the new pump when I put it in to the pressure tank, I was told not to mess with it if it worked since it is a bit tricky to calibrate the both.  I will start a new topic about it once I go under the house and get some info.



Not that tricky, you can handle it!  Like I said, drain down tank (usually there is sufficient valves to do this without draining down the whole house), and set air pressure to match the low pressure cut-in of your pump switch.  Done.

It’s always best to measure where your pump switch cuts in (with a pressure gauge on the hose bib you will usually find near the well tank), but if not, you can go by the rating of the switch (usually 20-40, 30-50, or 40-60).  Just use the lower number.


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## sloeffle (Jun 8, 2018)

mellow said:


> I will start a new topic about it once I go under the house and get some info.


If you start a new topic can you please post a link to it. I just replaced my well pump, tank and hoping I have it setup correctly.


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## Highbeam (Jun 8, 2018)

Is this a submersible pump down in the well or is the whole motor up above ground like a jet pump.

My well has four 80 gallon expansion tanks and a submersible pump 200 feet down the hole.


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## semipro (Jun 8, 2018)

mellow said:


> It has a 20 gallon storage tank right now and it has pressure so the bladder is fine, will have to see if I can squeeze a bigger storage tank through the crawl space door.


You can use multiple smaller tanks if needed to get the capacity you want.


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## maple1 (Jun 11, 2018)

_*I was told not to mess with it if it worked since it is a bit tricky to calibrate the both. *_

I don't think I would rely too much on any other advice you might get from whoever gave you that one. Pump needs to be adjusted to your house system wants, and tank needs to be adjusted to pump.

We have a 2 storey with upstairs baths. Running our pump at 20/35 with an 18 precharge on the tank works good for us. It is situational & pump dependant though. We have a 3/4 hp pump running in shallow well mode but it is at about it's limits (likely beyond them going by the specs) in foot valve to pump separation. So trying to get 5 more PSI in the system ups its runtime considerably, relatively speaking. I think I have found every pump and every pressure tank (including hydronic ones) to be set way too high for what I want, out of the box.

I would love to have some of Highbeams expansion capacity though. Wow - that's huge. We could go a week on that in a power outage.


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## Highbeam (Jun 11, 2018)

maple1 said:


> _*I was told not to mess with it if it worked since it is a bit tricky to calibrate the both. *_
> 
> I don't think I would rely too much on any other advice you might get from whoever gave you that one. Pump needs to be adjusted to your house system wants, and tank needs to be adjusted to pump.
> 
> ...



The huge tanks sweat a bit. This well feeds three homes. I can trigger a pump cycle every time I backwash the iron filter!


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## Ashful (Jun 11, 2018)

maple1 said:


> I don't think I would rely too much on any other advice you might get from whoever gave you that one.


Agreed, on this point.


maple1 said:


> We have a 2 storey with upstairs baths. Running our pump at 20/35 with an 18 precharge on the tank works good for us.



That sounds like a recipe for some mighty un-satisfying showers.  If you need to run way down to 20 PSI to hit your volumetric requirement, I’d be shopping bigger pumps.


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## maple1 (Jun 12, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Agreed, on this point.
> 
> 
> That sounds like a recipe for some mighty un-satisfying showers.  If you need to run way down to 20 PSI to hit your volumetric requirement, I’d be shopping bigger pumps.



Quite satisfying for me, and haven't heard any complaints from the other half after all these years either - likely the bigger teller. Guess it depends what satisfies you in the shower  , but it certainly isn't an exfoliator. 

I really would like more expansion capacity but just haven't gotten around to actually doing anything about it, we've only got a single 20.


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## Ashful (Jun 12, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Quite satisfying for me, and haven't heard any complaints from the other half after all these years either - likely the bigger teller. Guess it depends what satisfies you in the shower  , but it certainly isn't an exfoliator.



I read you on too much pressure, when I lived in the city I was on floor 1 of a 15 story building one year, and I think they must have run that old building on a single pressure pump.  My shower would half knock me off my feet, and it was actually a little painful.

When I bought my first house, they had a 20 - 40 psi switch in a Victorian with 10 feet per floor, and an old-school standard Moen shower head with very soft water.  It would take so long to rinse while that shower was weakly dribbling on you, that I’d just get frustrated and towel off the soap half way thru.

I upgraded the whole system, and went 40 - 60 PSI on the new switch, and it was fantastic.  I remember being able to rinse the shampoo out of my hair in about 3 seconds flat, which satisfied the rushed morning routine of this then-25 year old.  It was also great for washing cars with the garden hose, or watering large expanses of lawn from a single sprinkler.

That was years ago, and we tend to remember less as we get older and accumulate more stuff, so I don’t remember the settings of my new well (even though I installed it myself).  I’m running four floors off one pump, and that would dictate higher than 20 PSI cut-in, no matter how you figure it.


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## mellow (Jul 24, 2018)

Thanks @Ashful for the heads up on the pump.  I finally got under the house this weekend and switched out the bladder tank for a new 20 gallon.  The old one was indeed waterlogged.

It was an easy fix.  My pump is set at Turn on at 30psi and Turn off at 50psi so I set my bladder at 28psi.


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2018)

mellow said:


> Thanks @Ashful for the heads up on the pump.  I finally got under the house this weekend and switched out the bladder tank for a new 20 gallon.  The old one was indeed waterlogged.
> 
> It was an easy fix.  My pump is set at Turn on at 30psi and Turn off at 50psi so I set my bladder at 28psi.



Cool.  Depending on manufacturer and model, a 20 gallon tank would typically have a drawdown around 6 gallons at 30 - 50 PSI.  So when your pump kicks in, it should probably take at least 30 seconds to fill the tank, based on a typical < 10 GPM pump setup.  You can easily see this by running water until the pump kicks on, then shutting off the water and watching the tank fill.  It will take longer (by ~2 GPM) if you leave a single faucet running while it fills.

If I recall, you were seeing the well kick on/off in 10 second intervals before, so this would be a good way to ensure that issue is resolved.


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## mellow (Jul 24, 2018)

Yep, 30-45 seconds to fill, I didn't time it exactly but it has made a world of difference.

This was yesterday's usage:


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## Where2 (Jul 24, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> ... you can only have one wire per lug on the breaker. So you just run a short wire from a lug on the breaker to a suitable wire nut somewhere in the panel and then connect two or more circuits.



If you guys are still using wire nuts for junctions under 20A like Peak described above, you should really check out Wago Lever Nuts. For years, I've used the 222 series, and now I see they just came out with a smaller 221 series (still good for solid or stranded 12AWG-24AWG).


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## mellow (Nov 21, 2018)

If you really want to annoy your wife get a Sense monitor.  I get alerts that devices (heat pump) is using more power than usual so I text the wife asking "why am I seeing spikes in the power usage" only to get a text back telling me to pound sand she was cold.

Man do I miss having a wood stove.


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## georgepds (Nov 21, 2018)

Re"Man do I miss having a wood stove."

What happened to it

Here in Northern Ma we are getting ready for a 20 F thanksgiving. It's good to have a stove

When it hits-5F, it's great to have a stove


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## jebatty (Nov 22, 2018)

georgepds said:


> When it hits-5F, it's great to have a stove


 Even better when temp drops to -30F and lower.


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## maple1 (Nov 22, 2018)

This has been the winteriest start to a winter we have had for as long as I can remember. Snow - we got 12+" the night before, 4 more last night, and 6-8 the week before. I had to get up on our verandah roof yesterday, it was piled up past our bedroom window up to the main roof line - if I ever have to do that, it's not usually until mid-winter, and only once a winter. Trees are all loaded up & bent over.  Power outages, there have been 3 multi-hour ones so far this month. That's more than we have gotten the whole winter, for like the last decade. It is -14c outside right now. It isn't even really winter yet and I am ready to wave a white flag already.

But digressing.... (sorry for the vent....)

I am starting to think about upgrading from our Efergy. Are there other good ones to check out besides the Sense? It has been a while since I googled, did that a couple days ago & saw a whole bunch of stuff that I didn't recognize - suspecting some of it might be of suspect quality?


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## mellow (Nov 23, 2018)

There is a bunch of suspect chinese junk in the market, I ponied up and went with Sense since they have an active FB/Forum with users offering new and good ideas and they listen and are pushing some good upgrades to the firmware.  

It is new AI technology that is going to take a while to perfect and with more users the data will help to get it even better.


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## mellow (Nov 23, 2018)

georgepds said:


> Re"Man do I miss having a wood stove."
> 
> What happened to it



Sold that house, in a new to me single story rancher that currently does not have the best footprint for a stove, working on that.  Till then I have to deal with the Heat Pump that came with the house.


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## semipro (Nov 24, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Are there other good ones to check out besides the Sense? It has been a while since I googled, did that a couple days ago & saw a whole bunch of stuff that I didn't recognize - suspecting some of it might be of suspect quality?


The "Energy Detective" has had some good reviews on this forum and was one that the OP looked at.  http://www.theenergydetective.com/ It only monitors breaker circuits though which is fine for bigger devices on dedicated circuits.  The beauty of the Sense's concept it that it attempts to monitor at a device level, something I find very attractive. 

Funny, I'm back reading this thread again because I suspect that my well tank is waterlogged.
I knew it has a small bladder leak but I've just been adding air regularly (draining the tank and filling to spec). I think the leak has grown though and I suspect my well pump is cycling often.  It's hard to tell though unless I listen carefully to the contactor in the pressure switch assembly or watch the gauge constantly.  That's why I'm considering an electronic monitoring system - again.


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## semipro (Nov 26, 2018)

semipro said:


> Seems like it should have a "training" mode where you can turn something on manually and then register that device  within the Sense when the load is detected. Of course you might need to turn off all the other breakers to avoid confounds.





mellow said:


> Yea, we are trying to get the engineers at Sense to allow access so we can "train" it.  Apparently there is much more that happens behind the scene with the AI than we are aware of since it is a crowdsourced AI.



I reached out to Sense to ask if training could be done.  Their  response follows:

"Thanks for reaching out! The way device detection works, Sense needs to see devices in their usual context with their regular usage patterns and on/offs to be able to accurately identify them. That means that training by turning devices on/off and labeling them, unfortunately, would not be very effective.

That being said, we've introduced several features that take user inputs (besides you using your devices, of course) into account for our device detection algorithms. Features like renaming mystery devices, re-categorizing devices, adding make/model to a device's details, and marking incorrectly on devices with the 'Device is not on' flag, are different ways that you can contribute to device detection.

If you're interested in reading some more about how we actually detect devices, I would recommend checking out this blog post: "How Sense Learns About Your Devices""


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## Rob711 (Nov 17, 2019)

I realize that this is old, but any more info on the sense?  My solar went up Friday, that has a app that’s kinda neat, also because electric company changed out our meter to a net metering smartmeter I can see useage on there website as well.  
  Well like some of you I like data! I’m going back and forth if it’s worth 350$. Curious how those with it are liking it. 
Thanks
Rob


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## mellow (Nov 18, 2019)

Not worth it for device detection, that is a joke (unless you want to buy HS110's to plug stuff into).  If you are looking at gathering usage data it works great for that.


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## Rob711 (Nov 18, 2019)

Thank you mellow, I think I’m happy enough with the solar app



This shows pretty much what I want, the sense reviews pretty much mirror what you said, it has a hard time accurately identifying loads. Thanks for saving me 350$!


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## mellow (Nov 19, 2019)

What is most irritating about the device detection is it will pick something up like say the HVAC, then forget it, then find it again, then forget that one so you end up with a bunch of dead devices and then it will pick up the HVAC which is really the dryer etc...


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