# Electricity Savings of Operating Wood Stove vs Forced Air Electric/Heat Pump



## Scout_1969

Well, I got my first electric bill (Nov. - Dec. period of 28days) since burning wood 24/7 with electric heat/pump turned off. It's been a little colder and windy that I can remember in past nov - dec periods.
BTW- 
<2100 sf well insulated ranch, wood stove in finished basement, vented through supply ducts, return air to stove room
<16 year old 4 ton heat pump with electric resistance backup heat
<Stove/chimney is in my signature 
<wood costs only my time, tools and other expenses

I used 1185 KWH/KW less than last year. Taking out fixed costs for electric service, my variable cost is $0.053247 per KWH/KW, for a total of $63.10 or $2.25 per day.

I feel this is probably highly conservative due to recent low temps and will keep tracking the costs and hopefully will have more of a $ return. 

Does anyone have any data to share, thoughts or maybe a link to a similar thread?


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## ColdNH

I just got my electric bill

(i love getting it now)

Our house is 100% baseboard electric heat.

The stove was installed last march.

Check out the bar graph, this makes me a very happy man!


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## LLigetfa

Lemme see if I understood right... you only saved  $2.25 per day on your electric bill?  I assume that doen't factor what it cost to heat with wood.  At that rate of return what is the real ROI?

In many areas heating with electricity is much higher than heating with gas and the capital outlay for a heat pump is high.  I have a gas furnace which I supplement with wood and when gas is cheap as it is now, it is harder to justify burning $100 cords of wood, given all the work and mess associated with wood burning.  For me, it's more of a lifestyle than saving money.  Of course, having a backup in case of power failure is a must too.  The cost of gas could always change as well.


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## ColdNH

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> Lemme see if I understood right... you only saved  $2.25 per day on your electric bill?  I assume that doen't factor what it cost to heat with wood.  At that rate of return what is the real ROI?
> 
> In many areas heating with electricity is much higher than heating with gas and the capital outlay for a heat pump is high.  I have a gas furnace which I supplement with wood and when gas is cheap as it is now, it is harder to justify burning $100 cords of wood, given all the work and mess associated with wood burning.  For me, it's more of a lifestyle than saving money.  Of course, having a backup in case of power failure is a must too.  The cost of gas could always change as well.



for me, if i was to purchase wood at 250$ a cord it would NOT be worth it. Since i scrounge all my wood and enjoy the process of gathering/splitting/stacking and burning it IS worth it, plus my house would never be 70-80 degrees in the dead of winter with electric heat! the warmest we ever had the house with electric heat was probably 68.


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## ddddddden

Hi Scout,  In my part of the state, the rate is ~ $0.10 / KWH.  The only part of that I would consider fixed is the ~ $7 minimum for "distribution."  There are similar threads, mostly comparing wood with NG, or $ / BTU of all types of heat. Search for stuff like "NG Cheaper than Wood."


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## BrotherBart

I think if you look at that bill again you will find that the delivery charge is based on KWH usage also and that your savings are probably close to double what you calculated. May not be, but I bet it is.


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## Scout_1969

ColdNH- 

Your 2009 usage was just alittle above mine now, what size home do you have? 

Also it looks like you're at 52% and I'm at 45% *less* than '09

LLigitfa- 

You are correct, no factor for wood expenses. It's a new lifestyle for me so far, I was just hoping for a little more ROI. Yes the whole backup is how we started with the stove.

Den/BB-

That's about what ours is total. Even using the total it's about $116/28 days or $4.14/day I called the power company to get a clarification of fixed and variable costs. The Basic Consumer Charge and Power and Energy Charge are fixed. Although the P&E charge fluctuates by the cost of their fuel cost, not my consumption. The variables are; Variable Distribution Charge, Level Purchase Power Facilities and taxes/surcharge.

----------------

So far I'd say if I had to purchase wood at any price it defintely wouldn't be worth it. Right now I'm burning around a cord per month, at variable electric costs my wood is $63/cord, total electric costs $116/cord. Not to mention my time and costs. I'm starting to think of the old Luskins cheapest guy in town commercials  

I'm going to keep tracking this and try to nail down the variable costs and see if there are other things I'm missing.


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## Cate68

My furnace is forced air, gas...

My gas budget went from $70 to $20, burning about 18 - 20 hours a day since November. 

Wood is free. Only electric being used is to run the blower on the insert and a small fan to help circulate through the house. 

I've not noticed a change in my electric bill worth mentioning... 

Pretty sweet.


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## ColdNH

1650 sq foot cape, im guessing i burned about 3/4 a cord of wood in December, and my electric bill was about 180$ less then it would have been with the electric heat. so yah, the savings is not huge, but we were a hell of alot warmer, which is what the stove is all about for me. the next  2 months We will see better savings




			
				Scout_1969 said:
			
		

> ColdNH-
> 
> Your 2009 usage was just alittle above mine now, what size home do you have?
> 
> Also it looks like you're at 52% and I'm at 45% *less* than '09
> 
> LLigitfa-
> 
> You are correct, no factor for wood expenses. It's a new lifestyle for me so far, I was just hoping for a little more ROI. Yes the whole backup is how we started with the stove.
> 
> Den/BB-
> 
> That's about what ours is total. Even using the total it's about $116/28 days or $4.14/day I called the power company to get a clarification of fixed and variable costs. The Basic Consumer Charge and Power and Energy Charge are fixed. Although the P&E charge fluctuates by the cost of their fuel cost, not my consumption. The variables are; Variable Distribution Charge, Level Purchase Power Facilities and taxes/surcharge.
> 
> ----------------
> 
> So far I'd say if I had to purchase wood at any price it defintely wouldn't be worth it. Right now I'm burning around a cord per month, at variable electric costs my wood is $63/cord, total electric costs $116/cord. Not to mention my time and costs. I'm starting to think of the old Luskins cheapest guy in town commercials
> 
> I'm going to keep tracking this and try to nail down the variable costs and see if there are other things I'm missing.


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## begreen

That is very cheap power. Are you sure that it doesn't go up after exceeding a set kw level of consumption? A high-efficiency heat pump is pretty marvelous. So is a nice warm fire. Our heating bills have dropped so much that I'm happy as a clam, running both.


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## Lighting Up

I don't understand this...you saved MONEY...you have warmer heat then your heat pump gives you and you may not use your stove because you did not save enough? 

Hummm. to me I only needed to save a penny from my elect co to convince me to heat with wood. I did the same comparison but with NG and I saved but mainly the HEAT was so much WARMER then the gas furnace the thought never crossed my mind to stop heating with wood. 

Staying warmer
md


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## KB007

To me, the fact that my LR is often now 80F or more and the rest of the house is easily 75F in the winter makes me way happier than when we were using propane (or before that oil!) to keep the house at 67F and 64F at night.  The comparison of previous cost to current cost doesn't really take into consideration the additional cost you would have spent if you really ran the furnace/heat pump / baseboards or whatever at 75F throughout the house.  It becomes a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, but there's n way I'd ever want to pay to have propane heat me to 75F (even tho I would like to if it wasn't so damm expensive).


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## DBoon

In many cases, electricity rates drop during the wintertime.  This time of year is when the power companies have more generation capability than demand.  In summer, especially in VA, that is not the case, so rates are higher.  

IF your variable rate is really 5 cents/kWh, then I could have predicted that you wouldn't save that much. Plus, in Virginia, heat pumps work pretty well since temperatures are more moderate.  

However, this December has been much colder than last December, at least in the Northeast.  I think that if you compared heating degree days (www.degreedays.net) for the two Decembers, you would find that it might have been a pretty warm December last year, and that if you had to run your heat pump during this December, you would have used a whole lot more electricity.  

Still, as a previous poster mentioned, and as someone who used to use a heat pump for winter heating, that is about the worst kind of heat I can imagine - lots of pseudo-warm air at 78 degrees blowing dust through the house nearly 12 hours a day.  Not my idea of great winter heat.


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## Scout_1969

ColdNH- Thanks, I may need to replace my 'smoke dragon'. I 'm pretty sure it's typically colder where you are and you used 1/4 cord less than me.

BeGreen - Not sure about the cost going up after a certain level, I'll check into that. Yeah I read somewhere that the heat pump's efficient temp is 40 degrees plus. They're predicting 50+ for the next few days so I'll probably us it during the day and see how low it goes at night.

LightingUp- I guess savings is in the eye of the beholder  At least there was a savings right? If I had to pay for wood, like another member said (I think $250/cord) it wouldn't be worth it. Right now I'm selling mine to myself for around maybe $63/cord. But that's a preliminary estimate.

I thought gas heat was pretty warm the few homes I've been to that had it, they had LP gas so I understand it's expensive. It felt better than my electric forced air, but I personally can live with the electric forced air heat feel.

DBoon- Yeah, I can get the house to 75 plus with the wood stove, but our comfort temp is 72-73. This is about the same as we kept the house with electric forced air now its wood forced air and a little convection.
           Thanks for the degree days link. So far our Decembers have been at 844/853/963, I'll wait for the Dec. '10 data for comparison.

        Off topic- I too have a 4.5 lb lowes maul and like it. Have 8lb standard maul that's hardly used. I had a chance to be around a 16lb monster maul, that's a man killer. Reminds me of Toby Keith's song verse a few years back.. 'I'm as good once as I ever was', cause that's about all I wanted to swing it.


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## begreen

DBoon said:
			
		

> In many cases, electricity rates drop during the wintertime.  This time of year is when the power companies have more generation capability than demand.  In summer, especially in VA, that is not the case, so rates are higher.
> 
> IF your variable rate is really 5 cents/kWh, then I could have predicted that you wouldn't save that much. Plus, in Virginia, heat pumps work pretty well since temperatures are more moderate.
> 
> Still, as a previous poster mentioned, and as someone who used to use a heat pump for winter heating, that is about the worst kind of heat I can imagine - lots of pseudo-warm air at 78 degrees blowing dust through the house nearly 12 hours a day.  Not my idea of great winter heat.



There are a lot of older style heat pump systems that are not really effective below 40F. But the newer generation units can do much better.  Our (Amer. Std. Heritage 16) works to about 25F before it looses steam. It's 36F outside now and it is working fine. We had company last night and by the time they left I was ready to go to bed so I let the fire die out overnight. I woke up to the heat pump running and warming up the house from the nighttime setback temp of 63F. While the fire got resurrected from coals I measured the air temp at a register as 106F. 

In our area I have been watching many mini-split systems go in this year due to tax and local incentives. The friends that were visiting last night have a Sanyo system in that easily works down to 20F. Another friend has an incredible Fujitsu unit that really cranks out the heat. I don't know how low it will go, the lowest we have seen so far is about 16F and at that temp it was working great. These new units are good enough that I consider them a second stove.


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## BrotherBart

DBoon said:
			
		

> In many cases, electricity rates drop during the wintertime.  This time of year is when the power companies have more generation capability than demand.  In summer, especially in VA, that is not the case, so rates are higher.



I would be interested in knowing which electric companies in VA adjust rates based on the season. None that I know of since any time they change anything in a rate they have to get it approved by the Corporation Commission. And the statewide average for residential power is 10.61 cents per KWH before fixed costs and taxes. Including fixed costs and taxes ours runs 14.77 cents per KWH give or take a little based on fuel adjustment and is in line with the rest of the states providers. For December the variable energy cost, delivery charge and fuel adjustment was 9.89 cents per KWH.


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## jharkin

NO input other than extreme jealously at the insanely low electric rate you have got.  We pay $  .15 - .20 up here.....


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## Battenkiller

Hard to tell what's what on a National Grid electric bill, but it works out they're picking my pocket to the tune of 14.5 cents/kWh on this bill.  Last November I was not burning until the end of the month, and I used about 1600 kWh.  This November I used 548 kWh - roughly 1/3 the amount of electricity.  This November was also colder than last, so I would have had to use maybe 1800 kWh to keep the place at 65Âº with my baseboard heaters.  

This year I kept the joint in the mid-70s all month and the bill was only $85.81, mostly DHW, fridge and lights - no electric heat at all.  So I figure I saved about $175 for the month of November alone.  Cost of wood during that month was maybe $75, so $100 saved in the warmest heating month of the season.  I would expect to use roughly triple that amount of electricity for both January and February, while increasing the woods cost to about $200/month.  For the 6-month heating season, it would cost me close to $3000 to keep this house at 65Âº, as opposed to $900 if I go through 6 cord at $150/cord.  

Of course, I will spend a lot less than that on wood this year since I improved the efficiency of my stove considerably by actually putting it together the way it was supposed to be.  Plus, I added $1500 worth of chainsaws and related gear and cut a lot of my own, but I have to figure the cost of the saws and such over their useful lives, plus the gas, oil, chains and what not.  If I go ahead and get a truck to go hardcore scrounger, I'll get the wood for free, but it will cost me $5000/yr or more to heat the place.  Like many say, it's a lifestyle thing.

My November bill:


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## nola mike

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> DBoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In many cases, electricity rates drop during the wintertime.  This time of year is when the power companies have more generation capability than demand.  In summer, especially in VA, that is not the case, so rates are higher.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would be interested in knowing which electric companies in VA adjust rates based on the season. None that I know of since any time they change anything in a rate they have to get it approved by the Corporation Commission. And the statewide average for residential power is 10.61 cents per KWH before fixed costs and taxes. Including fixed costs and taxes ours runs 14.77 cents per KWH give or take a little based on fuel adjustment and is in line with the rest of the states providers. For December the variable energy cost, delivery charge and fuel adjustment was 9.89 cents per KWH.
Click to expand...

+ 1 at both my va locations.  And I have a high efficiency heat pump that doesn't work worth squat when the temp drops below 30.


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## begreen

Some heat pumps have good air conditioning efficiency (SEER), but are middling for heating efficiency (HSPF). We bought for the best HSPF. The AC gets used maybe once a year. Regardless, if the house is losing heat quickly, then it may not mean squat. A leaky building will not be fixed by a good heater without some overkill in the btu dept.


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## nola mike

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Some heat pumps have good air conditioning efficiency (SEER), but are middling for heating efficiency (HSPF). We bought for the best HSPF. The AC gets used maybe once a year. Regardless, if the house is losing heat quickly, then it may not mean squat. A leaky building will not be fixed by a good heater without some overkill in the btu dept.


Interesting.  This, IIRC, had a SEER of 17.  Don't know the HSPF.  I do know that with temps in 20's, register temps were in the 70's w/o the aux strips kicking in.  House is leaky, I'm working on it...


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## DBoon

NYSEG in NY used to offer a "fixed" plan and a "variable" plan, now starting in 2011 only the "variable" rate plan is available.  Power cost goes up and down with demand.  I can't speak for Virginia since I don't live there, but it doesn't sound like the same type of pricing applies there. 

Heat pumps have certainly improved over the years, but there are still plenty out there with efficiency that is lacking at <40 degrees F.  The single SEER or HSPF number doesn't really tell much - you have to look at the coefficient of performance (COP) vs. temperature curve.  Mine dropped well below 2 at 30 degrees or less, and anything much below 2 means a lot of <80 degree air being blown through the ductwork - not a very pleasant heating method.  

But the biggest beef I have with heat pumps is that most people don't understand how they work, and most people treat them like a fossil fuel heating appliance.  When the thermostat is rapidly turned up, the electric resistance heating backup is turned on and that completely negates any efficiency advantage of the heat pump.  Maybe newer units don't operate this way, which would be a big advantage.


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## jlove1974

Not sure if all of you have tried it, but I used the calculator comparison here:
http://www.travisindustries.com/CostOfHeating_WkSht.asp?P=4

I only compared gas, electric, and wood because those are the three most common here in the south. Heating oil basically went extinct around here in the 70s.

And even paying around $175/cord I would still be breaking even with gas. And half the cost of heating w/ my 20 year old 10 seer heat pump.
NOT paying for wood and processing itself usually costs around $20/cord in transportation and fuel + my labor....so really no comparison there.

Plus the renewable aspect of it, plus the 'heats you twice or thrice' argument of firewood, plus the fact that I am an outdoorsman period.


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## begreen

nola mike said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some heat pumps have good air conditioning efficiency (SEER), but are middling for heating efficiency (HSPF). We bought for the best HSPF. The AC gets used maybe once a year. Regardless, if the house is losing heat quickly, then it may not mean squat. A leaky building will not be fixed by a good heater without some overkill in the btu dept.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.  This, IIRC, had a SEER of 17.  Don't know the HSPF.  I do know that with temps in 20's, register temps were in the 70's w/o the aux strips kicking in.  House is leaky, I'm working on it...
Click to expand...


Another thing to check is duct loss. All supplies and returns should be sealed and well insulated. Our ductwork runs through a conditioned space that doesn't get below 60F. Even with this I get a reading from 99-110 on a register 10' from the air handler and 87-92F on the furthest run.


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## Renovation

BeGreen said:
			
		

> There are a lot of older style heat pump systems that are not really effective below 40F. But the newer generation units can do much better.  Our (Amer. Std. Heritage 16) works to about 25F before it looses steam. It's 36F outside now and it is working fine. We had company last night and by the time they left I was ready to go to bed so I let the fire die out overnight. I woke up to the heat pump running and warming up the house from the nighttime setback temp of 63F. While the fire got resurrected from coals I measured the air temp at a register as 106F.
> 
> In our area I have been watching many mini-split systems go in this year due to tax and local incentives. The friends that were visiting last night have a Sanyo system in that easily works down to 20F. Another friend has an incredible Fujitsu unit that really cranks out the heat. I don't know how low it will go, the lowest we have seen so far is about 16F and at that temp it was working great. These new units are good enough that I consider them a second stove.



Thanks for the interesting information BeGreen.

Even though this is a stove forum, this is relevant to me, because I put in a heatpump as primary backup to my stove (I also have propane for emergencies).   It's informative to know they are improving.


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## pyper

Heat pumps are also more efficient if you leave the thermostat alone, or adjust it in small increments. With the one we have (and they can be different) the "emergency" heat comes on any time the thermostat differential is 2F. Emergency means the whole system is a giant space heater, which uses twice as much (or so) electric.

I have no idea how much electric we save using the stove. This year we have used the heatpump only two or three times. I like the heat from the stove. It feels warm. The heatpump never really made anything feel warm.


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## maverick06

We have a heat pump with oil fired "emergency". Its hard to truely identify the amount of energy savings. I use 30g of oil a year, the power bill goes up about $30/month relative to no ac/heat pump, and I burn about 2-3 cords a year. 

If the temp is ~45F or up, I will let the heat pump take over, below that, I will run the fireplace. Since I buy my wood, I think about 45F is turning point. 

I would recommend the heat pump to anyone, it saves a lot of money.


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## Renovation

maverick06 said:
			
		

> We have a heat pump with oil fired "emergency". Its hard to truely identify the amount of energy savings. I use 30g of oil a year, the power bill goes up about $30/month relative to no ac/heat pump, and I burn about 2-3 cords a year.
> 
> If the temp is ~45F or up, I will let the heat pump take over, below that, I will run the fireplace. Since I buy my wood, I think about 45F is turning point.
> 
> I would recommend the heat pump to anyone, it saves a lot of money.



Thanks for the info.

No NG where I am, so, before I discovered new-fangled wood stoves, I put in the heat pump, planning to bite the bullet and burn propane during coldest weather.  That was serendipitous, because I think the heat pump is a good compliment to wood stoves.  I think mine's efficiency limit is about 32 degrees.


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## micaaronfl

i know this is an old thread but very interesting. i have a heat pump and i live in PA. the pump is about 22 years old. 

im looking for ways to improve the use of my stove so i do not have to rely on the warmish heat from the heat pump. the house is about 4k sq ft colonial style with a closd floorplan. the stove sits in the family room. so far i have cut out vents into the transom peices down the one hallway, but not the second hallways as its a support beam. on the lower levels of the house i have also installed thermal curtains. 

i usually keep the house temp at 67 as i believe anything more than that will kick the emergency heat on. anyone else with heat pumps have any other suggestions, thermostats etc...


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## warmhouse2

I have 2 Heat pumps that are about 10 yrs old we pay about .17 kwh and my bill last month was $575.00.   Oh yeah we also have solar panels that saved us about $200 last month. We are hoping our new pellet stove will lower our electric bill this month.  Time will tell.  Before the pellet stove house was heated to a chilly 64*.  It is now a WARM 78*


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## BrotherBart

warmhouse2 said:
			
		

> I have 2 Heat pumps that are about 10 yrs old we pay about .17 kwh and my bill last month was $575.00.   Oh yeah we also have solar panels that saved us about $200 last month. We are hoping our new pellet stove will lower our electric bill this month.  Time will tell.  Before the pellet stove house was heated to a chilly 64*.  It is now a WARM 78*



What is your electric bill when you aren't heating?


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## micaaronfl

575 are u kidding me im heating a 4000 sq ft house ( at 73 degrees all day with an electric heat pump and a wood stove and im paying 220.00 in philadelphia. you need to find a new suppliers or buy another house.


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## maverick06

My suggestion for heat pump use is do what I do. 

If it is "warm" outside (I discribe that as 45F+) or if you only need a little heat in the house use the heat pump. 

The wood stove does most of the heating, the heatpump takes over when you are away or on the shoulder season.


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## Lumber-Jack

DBoon said:
			
		

> NYSEG in NY used to offer a "fixed" plan and a "variable" plan, now starting in 2011 only the "variable" rate plan is available.  Power cost goes up and down with demand.  I can't speak for Virginia since I don't live there, but it doesn't sound like the same type of pricing applies there.
> 
> Heat pumps have certainly improved over the years, but there are still plenty out there with efficiency that is lacking at <40 degrees F.  The single SEER or HSPF number doesn't really tell much - you have to look at the coefficient of performance (COP) vs. temperature curve.  Mine dropped well below 2 at 30 degrees or less, and anything much below 2 means a lot of <80 degree air being blown through the ductwork - not a very pleasant heating method.
> 
> But the biggest beef I have with heat pumps is that most people don't understand how they work, and most people treat them like a fossil fuel heating appliance.  *When the thermostat is rapidly turned up, the electric resistance heating backup is turned on and that completely negates any efficiency advantage of the heat pump.  Maybe newer units don't operate this way, which would be a big advantage*.


My heat pump is going on 3 years old now, it was installed with one of those programmable thermostats and the default setting was as you described where the electric resistance heating backup is turned on when there is a large differential in the temperature setting and ambient temperature, but I figured out how to reprogram it so it only uses the heat pump for heating and the electric resistance will not kick in at all. Of course it takes longer for the house to heat up in this mode, but what the heck, I never use the heat pump anyway, my wood stove does a fine job of heating the house. The heat pump works well for cooling the house down in the middle of the summer though, a task that the wood stove fails miserably at.


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## warmhouse2

Spring and fall (no ac) with the solar about $75.00.  in the summer with ac on temp about 74*  200 - 250 per month.  NOTE the bill for 575 was BEFORE the pellet stove that was with our heat from the heat pumps.


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## Hankjones

When I run my insert I use about .7kw/h for my 1200 sqft house (home inspector said it was very well insulated).  When the heat pump kicks in, it's usually around 4kw/h.  If it's under 20f the heat pump never stops, seems to run at 4 to 5kw/h. I was hoping to save more with my wood insert,  but this morning it was 16F outside and my heat pump was putting out 85F out of the registers with 4kw/h.  That seemed enough to not have the backup electric coils turn on.  I thought it would cost a lot more to run that heat pump with under 30f weather, but maybe not for me.  My heat pump maybe oversized, it's a 20yr old trane xl1200. 

Note: it's rare the heat pump runs non stop, usually with 28 to 35f weather it cycles on and off and i use about 2 to 3kw/h more then with my wood stove.  Did all the calculations, burning wood still doesn't make financial sense for me... To late to change my mind so it's a lifestyle thing.


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## warmhouse2

to HANKJONES  thanks for your infomation I know our HP units need replacing as they basically run full time when its 30 or below outside the heat from the registers is barely warmer than the room temp which at the time before wood pellet stove house only heated to a max of 64* so therefore the heater was barely throwing air warmer than room temp.  

Thanks for all the info.


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## seeyal8r

I live in north central oklahoma. wind averages 20 mph but gusts can get up to 50 so our lows in the 20's to upper teens are very cold and our highs in the summer are usually around 105. I have a swimming pool and my wife and kids use electricity since they are at the house constantly. Our highest electric bill in the summer was $285 cooling the house to 76 degrees and last winter was $260 while heating the house to 65 degrees. We installed a fire place insert to take advantage of the abundance of oak in our area. Just got decembers bill.... $76. January is the most expensive heating month usually but I anticipate it to be around $90 since we've had to kick the heater on some mornings when the fire has burned down. Best part is we keep the house between 68 and 75 degrees this winter.


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## Boozie

I just got my electric bill for 12/13/10 to 01/14/11.  *My insert wasn't installed until 12/17 and I don't burn all the time*.  My bill was $95 less than the same time period for 12/11/09 to 01/12/10 with the same average temperature.  I'm happy.


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## BucksCounty

I am in Philly suburb with PECO and have a heat pump from 93.  We just moved in and I have been burnign so I really don't have a true comparison WITHOUT burning.  I know it is helping though.  Our December bill was 275.  Wife does complain the bedrooms are cold and I have made some vents trying to move the heat.  It is a 3300sq. ft. home, which includes a 500 sq. ft. addition with no heat (using Shelburne in that room and it is toasty) .  Stoves used are in sig.  We are considered "preferred" customers so after the 1st 600 kilowatts, the cost per kilowatt is cut almost in half.  .15 cents first 600 kw and then .077 cents after.  Problem is the discount with PECO is gone after 2011.  I am searching for a stove to replace insert as main source in main part of the house.


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## warmhouse2

Thank you for everyones input it looks like the Pellet stove is lowering our electric bill even though the stove uses electric 24/7

From Dec 8 to Jan 10 our total KWH 3138, solar credit of 112kwh  we were billed for 3026 kwh

From Jan 11  to 1/24 our KWH usage so far is 978 with solar credit of 45 for a billed usage of 933.

Thanks everyone.


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## maverick06

hank interesting! I would suggest some calculations based on $/btu delivered. I ran the math on mine, and figured it will always be cheaper to heat with wood, until you hit the point where a firebox full of wood puts out more than BTU/hr than you need. 

But it all is effected by the efficiency of your wood stove and your poirtion of the country (as modified by the temperature band you let it run) coupled witht he price you pay for wood and electricity. 

So its a seperate case for everyone. 

I have a thread with the details of the math/thought process behind my work: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/69040/

Rick


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## henkmeuzelaar

Since we have just moved into a new rural loghome in Targhee NF, Idaho, I have a chance to design an entire new home heating system. As a lifelong pyromaniac with a passion for efficient, low emission energy conversion techniques I would love nothing better than to buy one of the newer, clean-burning wood stoves, if only I could justify the expense in terms of monthly operating costs...... 

Unfortunately, I am up against some harsh realities: our local hydroelectric power is supplied at a cost just below 5 cents per kWh. My calculations show that at at a local cost of minimally $ 170 per cord (delivered and stacked) and a NET combustion process efficiency around 55 % (i.e. jncluding expected moisture evaporation/heating, stack heat flow and OAK rewarming losses) the 20 million or so BTUs in that cord are going to cost me 17,000 / 20,000,000 x .55 =  1.545 cents per 1,000 BTU (or 3.2 x 1.455 = 4.95 cents per kWh equivalent).

So, until local electricity prices go up one day, it seems to me that we are best off to stay with the 7 or 8 thermostatted 1300-1500 W electric heaters (mostly of the fake fireplace type), distributed over the various rooms and open spaces, that were able to keep the house warm while we were finishing it before moving in. One of the most attractive aspects of this all electric, distributed system is that it easily ties in to a central, programmed temperature control system. 

If you found yourself in my place and wanted to convince your wife (who happens to have a good head for dollars and cents) that it still made sense to get a nice big woodstove, e.g. for the basement, in spite of these rather depressing realities, how would you go about it??   I should mention that the living room already has a Majestic fireplace with glass doors and forced air circulation which has proved to provide a half decent back-up for power outages.

Henk


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## begreen

I can't disagree with the assessment. If the power looks to stay cheap hydro, resistance electric will work. I would switch to a 220v system, permanently wired. It will be safer and should be lower maintenance. The fireplace heaters may be cute, but they are no more efficient than a $25 electric heater of the same wattage and they cost a whole lot more. With a good sized wood stove for ambiance and power outage coverage, and that nice solar gain, you should be all set.


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## henkmeuzelaar

Thx10e6 for the expert assessment, BeGreen!

Agree about the electric fireplace heaters but I happen to be married and they do look pretty cute in the bedrooms....

(BTW, I found out that the cheaper electric "insert" type HomeDepot sells does a much better job imitating a real woodfire than the large, expensive mantel types available). 

Henk


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## warmhouse2

.


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## Coleman Stove

Scout_1969 said:
			
		

> ColdNH-
> 
> Your 2009 usage was just alittle above mine now, what size home do you have?
> 
> Also it looks like you're at 52% and I'm at 45% *less* than '09
> 
> LLigitfa-
> 
> You are correct, no factor for wood expenses. It's a new lifestyle for me so far, I was just hoping for a little more ROI. Yes the whole backup is how we started with the stove.
> 
> Den/BB-
> 
> That's about what ours is total. Even using the total it's about $116/28 days or $4.14/day I called the power company to get a clarification of fixed and variable costs. The Basic Consumer Charge and Power and Energy Charge are fixed. Although the P&E charge fluctuates by the cost of their fuel cost, not my consumption. The variables are; Variable Distribution Charge, Level Purchase Power Facilities and taxes/surcharge.
> 
> ----------------
> 
> So far I'd say if I had to purchase wood at any price it defintely wouldn't be worth it. Right now I'm burning around a cord per month, at variable electric costs my wood is $63/cord, total electric costs $116/cord. Not to mention my time and costs. I'm starting to think of the old Luskins cheapest guy in town commercials
> 
> I'm going to keep tracking this and try to nail down the variable costs and see if there are other things I'm missing.



God I really need to get into this sort of business because I would be saving myself hundreds according to your guys' numbers


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## pgmr

A heat pump generally doesn't work well in setback situations using a programmable thermostat.  Because the recovery time is so long, most systems are setup to kick on the backup stage if the temp isn't rising fast enough or set point temp is X # of degrees above the actual temp.  Using resistance coils, NG/propane furnace or oil to recover the temp is probably a wash with the $ saved during the setback period.  

For those w/resistance coils, the COP for those is always 1 (100% eff - theoretically).  The COP of a heat pump is always greater than 1 (it's not "making" heat, simply moving it from outside to inside).  You should never set your system up to bypass the hp and only run the coils (unless the hp isn't working).  Let the hp run, the coils are meant to supplement the hp and also to temper the air during a defrost cycle.


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## billjustbill

We've been in our 2,100 sq ft. home for 35 years...  We use Propane for the hot water heater and Central forced air.  The early years saw single pane to double pane vinyl windows installed.  Original tongue and groove knotty pine boards were sealed when I installed real Birch paneling and finished with a hand rubbed stain and brush finish. The old Propane furnace has been replaced twice and upgraded efficency in those years.  With additional insulation in the attic and blown into the walls, we have dropped our Propane usage by 2/3's, with the most change since we had the Lopi Freedom Bay installed in the fireplace.... From three 400 gallon tankfuls down to just under one tankful per year.

Wood has been sourced from fallen Oak and Pecan trees in a public park, so cost for it is only the sum of sharpening 3 or 4 chains and a couple of gallons of fuel mix and bar oil.  The bar oil I buy is mixed with my old crankcase oil I catch when I have the cars' oil changed.  Since I use "Duralube" as an oil additive, I mix 3 parts of bar oil to one part (quart) of old oil-change oil.  The oil additive still fuctions and gives great lubing properties and life to the chains and bar.  

Here in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, I'm burning about 1-1/2 cords for my heating season, although, this year has been much warmer that the last 30 years....  The feel of a "full warmth" from wood heat flowing out the Lopi is more comforting than the Propane heat.  When temps drop into the 20's and teens, the only minor problem I have is getting the heat down the hallway to the bedrooms.  If it's 76 degrees in the den, kitchen and livingroom/dining room, it may be 66 degrees in the bedrooms.  This year, Propane is about $2.50 a gallon, so heating with some "Free"  seasoned Mesquite, and mostly Red Oak and Pecan is great.  In reality, the total cost of at least a cord of wood is less than $45 a cord (gas, oil, 3 chains sharpened and two gallons of Tractor Supply Bar oil)... and my "free" labor.  

Maybe this can help you and others readers to figure your Winter heating cost/savings:

http://www.travisindustries.com/CostOfHeating_WkSht.asp?P=4


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## HotCoals

pgmr said:
			
		

> A heat pump generally doesn't work well in setback situations using a programmable thermostat.  Because the recovery time is so long, most systems are setup to kick on the backup stage if the temp isn't rising fast enough or set point temp is X # of degrees above the actual temp.  Using resistance coils, NG/propane furnace or oil to recover the temp is probably a wash with the $ saved during the setback period.
> 
> For those w/resistance coils, the COP for those is always 1 (100% eff - theoretically).  The COP of a heat pump is always greater than 1 (it's not "making" heat, simply moving it from outside to inside).  You should never set your system up to bypass the hp and only run the coils (unless the hp isn't working).  Let the hp run, the coils are meant to supplement the hp and also to temper the air during a defrost cycle.


So I should let my HP run even when it's way below 30F?
Only need back up if I'm gone a few days...then it's the heat pump and resistance forced air furnace.
In order for my coils to come on I have to actually lose temp when the HP is on..double mercury thermostat.


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## dobias

Are we talking about face cords or full cords? I'm too damned old to chop my own & pay $60 per face cord (16" long) delivered & stacked.
It's still cheaper than heating with LP.
Frank


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## pgmr

HotCoals said:
			
		

> pgmr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A heat pump generally doesn't work well in setback situations using a programmable thermostat.  Because the recovery time is so long, most systems are setup to kick on the backup stage if the temp isn't rising fast enough or set point temp is X # of degrees above the actual temp.  Using resistance coils, NG/propane furnace or oil to recover the temp is probably a wash with the $ saved during the setback period.
> 
> For those w/resistance coils, the COP for those is always 1 (100% eff - theoretically).  The COP of a heat pump is always greater than 1 (it's not "making" heat, simply moving it from outside to inside).  You should never set your system up to bypass the hp and only run the coils (unless the hp isn't working).  Let the hp run, the coils are meant to supplement the hp and also to temper the air during a defrost cycle.
> 
> 
> 
> So I should let my HP run even when it's way below 30F?
> Only need back up if I'm gone a few days...then it's the heat pump and resistance forced air furnace.
> In order for my coils to come on I have to actually lose temp when the HP is on..double mercury thermostat.
Click to expand...


I would leave it on if I had resistance coil auxiliary heaters.  They can both be running at the same time, but even in really cold temps, the HP will be the cheaper of the two / btu delivered.


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## HotCoals

pgmr said:
			
		

> HotCoals said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pgmr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A heat pump generally doesn't work well in setback situations using a programmable thermostat.  Because the recovery time is so long, most systems are setup to kick on the backup stage if the temp isn't rising fast enough or set point temp is X # of degrees above the actual temp.  Using resistance coils, NG/propane furnace or oil to recover the temp is probably a wash with the $ saved during the setback period.
> 
> For those w/resistance coils, the COP for those is always 1 (100% eff - theoretically).  The COP of a heat pump is always greater than 1 (it's not "making" heat, simply moving it from outside to inside).  You should never set your system up to bypass the hp and only run the coils (unless the hp isn't working).  Let the hp run, the coils are meant to supplement the hp and also to temper the air during a defrost cycle.
> 
> 
> 
> So I should let my HP run even when it's way below 30F?
> Only need back up if I'm gone a few days...then it's the heat pump and resistance forced air furnace.
> In order for my coils to come on I have to actually lose temp when the HP is on..double mercury thermostat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would leave it on if I had resistance coil auxiliary heaters.  They can both be running at the same time, but even in really cold temps, the HP will be the cheaper of the two / btu delivered.
Click to expand...

10-4..thanks.


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## mrfjsf

HotCoals said:
			
		

> pgmr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HotCoals said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pgmr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A heat pump generally doesn't work well in setback situations using a programmable thermostat.  Because the recovery time is so long, most systems are setup to kick on the backup stage if the temp isn't rising fast enough or set point temp is X # of degrees above the actual temp.  Using resistance coils, NG/propane furnace or oil to recover the temp is probably a wash with the $ saved during the setback period.
> 
> For those w/resistance coils, the COP for those is always 1 (100% eff - theoretically).  The COP of a heat pump is always greater than 1 (it's not "making" heat, simply moving it from outside to inside).  You should never set your system up to bypass the hp and only run the coils (unless the hp isn't working).  Let the hp run, the coils are meant to supplement the hp and also to temper the air during a defrost cycle.
> 
> 
> 
> So I should let my HP run even when it's way below 30F?
> Only need back up if I'm gone a few days...then it's the heat pump and resistance forced air furnace.
> In order for my coils to come on I have to actually lose temp when the HP is on..double mercury thermostat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would leave it on if I had resistance coil auxiliary heaters.  They can both be running at the same time, but even in really cold temps, the HP will be the cheaper of the two / btu delivered.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 10-4..thanks.
Click to expand...


On a side note, you may want to seriously consider ditching that old mercury stat, ESPECIALLY if you are running a HP. They are just not accurate enough, can be troublesome at times and IMHO cannot properly control a HP to peak efficiency. Mercury stats do not have the "Intelligence" to allow for a deadband, they can only sense that the temp has dropped below the set swing value and they kick on your heat strips. Also, do not do a setback with a heatpump. They are not designed to quickly recover from a setback. They are designed to produce a constant, low temperature heat and keep the house at a given setpoint, not swing from cold to hot and vice versa.


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## wjb111

I only have 1 full month to compare. I used 8.9 units less of natural gas for December 2011 vs December 2010. This past December was quite mild for this area in Michigan. Doing the math I saved about $75 in natural gas but used close to 2 face cords of wood at $60 per cord. We burn 24/7 maybe 90% of the time. I have to shut down the T5 for a day to cool off & clean the ashes out every 4-5 days. With this very small sampling it is costing me more to heat with the new T5. I suppose if I had a truck, chainsaw & a source to cut wood I might have a ROI. At least we are staying nice & warm. The family room typically run 75-80 degrees with the rest of the 1800 sq ft house a little cooler. I'm curious out the next 2 winter months compare.....


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## Rhone

What is going on with the $0.05/kW?  My electric is $0.11/kWh with a $0.12 upcharge per killowatt for delivery, green, renewable, taxes so I pay $0.23/kWh on average.  Take your total electric bill, divided by the used, and you'll have a more accurate representation of what you actually pay.  The electric bill reminds me of paying for college, if you take one class tuition is only around $275 but you'll be hit with a $900+ bill because it's everything else.  

I used to heat with oil, and I'd go through 750 gallons/year.  After my wood insert it dropped to 230 gallons for just hot water.  It worked out I was saving $1000/year minus $480 on wood or about $520/year.  Now oil is $3.70 so I'm saving $2000/year minus $630 for wood = $1,300/year.  That's worst case, I can usually scrounge a cord or two/year and each cord saves $210.  

I was using 230 gallons/oil for hot water @ $3.70/gal = $850/year on hot water.  I installed a solar hot water system for $2,500 (after rebates) with 3 panels and now I go through 11 gallons/year for savings of $810.30/year from solar.  

I actually hate burning wood, it's time consuming and I'm not as young as I used to be.  I rate my solar investment higher than my wood stove.  Could I go back I'd have installed 6 solar panels, that would've given me almost all my hot water year round, and all but probably 2 months of heating.  Maybe the next person who buys my house will do it... I sure hate when it's 40F and clear and sunny and I'm spending my time lighting a fire when... had I 3 more panels I'd be able to sit and relax.  I'll take free easy heating over laborous cheap heating anyday


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## Jags

Rhonemas - where the heck have you been??


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## kiltedpiper98

We have had a warm winter here, and I just installed the fireplace in December, so I don't have any good numbers to put in.  I did want to mention with the heat pump, many have an outside thermostat/switch that will turn off the heat pump and just use the back-up / aux heat once the temperature drops below a preset level.  The best way to determine what that is would be looking at the COP and the charts as mentioned before, but the other way would be seeing what the temps coming out of the registers is compared with the outside temps.  That will give you your Delta T, which will let you know at what outdoor temp you will not be happy/comfortable.  For my heat pump (about 8 years old - standard grade) it is maxed at about 35 to 40 degrees.  So if it is 35 degrees outside, the register will be 75 degrees, which means the room temp will feel cool, and the unit probably can't keep up with the heat loss from a moderately insulated home.

+1 to those who say wood heat is a quality of life/comfort thing.  Inside temps at 75 degrees in the winter is great.  I would not want to pay for that with gas back up and the heat pump below 40 degrees.


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## Rhone

Jags said:
			
		

> Rhonemas - where the heck have you been??



Surprised you remember me, then again it's nice to still see the same members here it's such a great community.  An accident happened some years ago (I got my wife pregnant) and I've been nothing but busy since!  I don't remember what free time is anymore


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## tcassavaugh

wonder what the savings would be if you left the air handler off and let convection do its work.

cass


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## Jags

Rhonemas said:
			
		

> Jags said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rhonemas - where the heck have you been??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Surprised you remember me, then again it's nice to still see the same members here it's such a great community.  An accident happened some years ago (I got my wife pregnant) and I've been nothing but busy since!  I don't remember what free time is anymore
Click to expand...


Glad to have you back.

Now back to the regularly scheduled show.


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## begreen

Welcome back Rhonemas! And congratulations on the new addition.


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## dafattkidd

I am always in awe of how low other people pay for utilities in other parts of the country.  I love burning wood but would have a hard time justifying the time and energy for $100/month for winter months. By installing my insert I save about 700-800 gallons of oil.  If i heated with electric my electric bill would be through the roof.  I mean over $1000/month.


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