# Where to buy the BEST gas for my saw...



## Big Donnie Brasco (Apr 22, 2013)

I haven't gotten my saw yet (I research the cr@p out of everything)

But one thing I am seeing is that ethanol will kill a saw. Where do I get GOOD gas so my saw will last for a thousand years?

Thank you very much!

Don


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## Sean McGillicuddy (Apr 22, 2013)

You could use the fuel in a can.
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_rn...09,d.dmQ&fp=880da350fb17f3c9&biw=1366&bih=643

http://www.lowes.com/Outdoor-Power-...N-1z0zc3v/pl?Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1#!


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## Ashful (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm sort of talking out of my a$$, as I'm no expert on this, but here's what my limited experience (and spending way too much time here reading) has shown me thus far:

1. Pump gas (10% ethanol around here) will not kill your saw.
2. Pump gas (10% ethanol) WILL eventually eat some rubber / poly fuel lines, but this seems to take a VERY long time.
3. You can buy ethanol-free pre-mix at any big-box store. Lowes sells it for roughly $9/gallon.
4. New saw owners worry about this stuff, but eventually get over it. I've been running ethanol pump gas in my saws for as long as they've been making it, have never drained a saw when not in use, and have not yet experienced a failed fuel line.

Of more immediate concern is the octane rating, since most chainsaws are running pretty high compression (9.5:1 or better). Always, _always, *always*_ run 93 octane or higher. Also remember that a gallon of whatever was pumped last is still sitting in the hose on the single-handle pump at the gas station, so unless you can confirm 93 just being pumped thru that handle last, assume it's full of 87. My solution is to pump 2 gallons of 93 into the pickup truck, to purge the hose, before filling my 1 gallon can. I usually try to bring a little bottle of Stihl mix to the station with my empty can, so I can mix while I fill, lest I forget to do it later.


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## smokinj (Apr 22, 2013)

Small air ports will have 100 octane no ethanol. On the other hand, I have not had a fuel issue on my 460 and running strong since 2006(I do like 100 octane when On a tree that takes long cut times). Now let the hype begin!


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## Thistle (Apr 22, 2013)

Been using 10% ethanol/93 octane in all my equipment since late '90's or so.Never any issues either mechanical or starting,performance wise etc.If I know the saws wont be used for a month or so (which is rare),any remaining mix is poured back into the cans.Which is a good thing for long term storage regardless.Any leftover straight gas for garden tractor,mower,snowblower etc in 2 1/2 or 5 gallon cans at end of season is emptied into the truck.I never mix more than 2 gallons at a time,even when milling.


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## smokinj (Apr 22, 2013)

Thistle said:


> Been using 10% ethanol/93 octane in all my equipment since late '90's or so.Never any issues either mechanical or starting,performance wise etc.If I know the saws wont be used for a month or so (which is rare),any remaining mix is poured back into the cans.Which is a good thing for long term storage regardless.Any leftover straight gas for garden tractor,mower,snowblower etc in 2 1/2 or 5 gallon cans at end of season is emptied into the truck.I never mix more than 2 gallons at a time,even when milling.


 

Oh boy the ethanol police are just around the corner.


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## Nixon (Apr 22, 2013)

Big Donnie Brasco said:


> I haven't gotten my saw yet (I research the cr@p out of everything)
> 
> But one thing I am seeing is that ethanol will kill a saw. Where do I get GOOD gas so my saw will last for a thousand years?
> 
> ...



Try looking here.... www.pure-gas.org


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## Bster13 (Apr 22, 2013)

I don't buy the "always run 93 octane" stuff.  I run what my saw calls for in the manual, much like my car.  I'm of the belief I'm wasting $ otherwise and actually hurting performance.


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## smokinj (Apr 22, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> I don't buy the "always run 93 octane" stuff. I run what my saw calls for in the manual, much like my car. I'm of the belief I'm wasting $ otherwise and actually hurting performance.


 

Oh they run really good on that aviation fuel for sure. For snaggle buck tooth firewood tree, run what someone else brung!


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## Ashful (Apr 22, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> I don't buy the "always run 93 octane" stuff. I run what my saw calls for in the manual, much like my car. I'm of the belief I'm wasting $ otherwise and actually hurting performance.


 
Hurting performance?  There is a minimum octane specified for any engine of a given compression ratio, to prevent knocking / pre-detonation.  For your low compression Husq.435, the minimum is 87 in USA, or 90 in EU.  There is no maximum specified.

However, your Husq.435 is the exception... more recommend 90 or 93 minimum octane.  If you have a small fleet of chainsaws (I'm down to 6) and other 2-stroke equipment (leaf blower, string trimmer, etc.), then you just buy 93, so you can run it in any of your equipment.


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## firefighterjake (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm running an older saw . . . Husquvarna 350 . . . sometimes the really good stuff and sometimes the cheap stuff . . . but always the gas at the local gas station. So far no issues mechanically or in performance.


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## lukem (Apr 22, 2013)

Unless you are running a souped-up saw, I doubt the additional octane will do anything for you except empty your wallet a little faster. Remember, the additional octane helps with pre-ignition/detonation (makes the gas harder to ignite, so it doesn't accidentally ignite too fast). Unless your compression is above stock or you've advanced your timing (not even sure that's possible on a 2-stroke), I doubt your saw will notice a difference.

The OPE octane "myth" probably started back in the day when 89 and above octane gas was pure gas, not gasahol...which probably did make it run a little better.

Octane does NOT add power. Period.

I've heard some say that 2-cycle oil alters your octane rating, but that may just be another perpetuated myth.  I'll let someone else chime in on that.  If that's the case, a little extra octane might bring it back to its posted rating at the pump.  I'm not sure if I fully believe this though, but I can't say it's not true either.


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## charly (Apr 22, 2013)

Premium pump gas and seafoam,, 12 years and zero rubber part problems, etc.  Aviation fuel can cause a lot of carbon build up and plug deposits in two strokes.. 2 stroke Ultralights engines are decarbonized every so many hours... There is an aviation fuel additive that you can run to cut down on the deposits... Now your having a gallon of gas costing near 6-7 dollars..


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## lukem (Apr 22, 2013)

87 octane and no additives, don't empty the tanks and clear the lines...ever. Never had a problem.


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## bogydave (Apr 22, 2013)

New saws have been updated & engineered to run the new fuels.
Don't mean non-ethanol fuel isn't better for them though.

Like said . some airports sell 5 gallon cans of it.  Also have  gas pumps. High- test no ethanol.

I'm lucky here, no ethanol. I buy 87 octane, in 1 gallon jugs, (mixed)
When one is emptied, it gets filled & mixed next time by the gas station.

Easy to pour old spout on the active jug


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## Jags (Apr 22, 2013)

smokinj said:


> Oh boy the ethanol police are just around the corner.


 
Let them come after me. 
I run 87 octane, 10% ethanol in all my gas engines. I don't have engine/fuel problems. I also don't drain anything...ever. Dumb luck? Probably.

Full disclosure:  I am a believer in sea foam and Stabil.


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## Ashful (Apr 22, 2013)

lukem said:


> Unless you are running a souped-up saw, I doubt the additional octane will do anything for you except empty your wallet a little faster.



You either run enormous chainsaws, or have an alarmingly thin wallet, if the gas your running in your saw has any bearing in how fast you empty your wallet.  For the few gallons I burn per year, I'll run the good stuff (as recommended by my Stihl dealer), and have peace of mind.


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## Bster13 (Apr 22, 2013)

I guess the question would be does "peace of mind" actually = better/longer performance.  IMO, I don't believe so as lukem stated.  To each his own of course, gotta do what you think is right in the end.


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## lukem (Apr 22, 2013)

Joful said:


> You either run enormous chainsaws, or have an alarmingly thin wallet, if the gas your running in your saw has any bearing in how fast you empty your wallet. For the few gallons I burn per year, I'll run the good stuff (as recommended by my Stihl dealer), and have peace of mind.


 
Hey, as they say, a penny saved is money well spent, or something.  Just because your dealer has a Stihl sign on his building doesn't make him smarter than the engineers who designed the saw or impervious to the myth of octane.  

I'm not saying anyone should NOT buy 93 octane...if the extra $.20/gallon buys you peace of mind then have at it.  It doesn't buy me peace of mind so I'll save my $, however little it may be.


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## smokinj (Apr 22, 2013)

Jags said:


> Let them come after me.
> I run 87 octane, 10% ethanol in all my gas engines. I don't have engine/fuel problems. I also don't drain anything...ever. Dumb luck? Probably.
> 
> Full disclosure: I am a believer in sea foam and Stabil.


 
I Really like running whatever MMAUL got in his can the best! (Cant count how many times we have either took gas out of the splitter or vice versa)


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## lukem (Apr 22, 2013)

smokinj said:


> I Really like running whatever MMAUL got in his can the best! (Cant count how many times we have either took gas out of the splitter or vice versa)


 
I agree.  Other people's gas always runs the best.


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## 91LMS (Apr 22, 2013)

VP RED!  if i cant be in the late model i want to at least smell the good time, lol


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## lukem (Apr 22, 2013)

91LMS said:


> VP RED! if i cant be in the late model i want to at least smell the good time, lol


 
Why stop there. Run some 1261.  And if you do, take a video .


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## StihlHead (Apr 22, 2013)

lukem said:


> Unless you are running a souped-up saw, I doubt the additional octane will do anything for you except empty your wallet a little faster. Remember, the additional octane helps with pre-ignition/detonation (makes the gas harder to ignite, so it doesn't accidentally ignite too fast). Unless your compression is above stock or you've advanced your timing (not even sure that's possible on a 2-stroke), I doubt your saw will notice a difference.
> 
> The OPE octane "myth" probably started back in the day when 89 and above octane gas was pure gas, not gasahol...which probably did make it run a little better.
> 
> ...


 
Actually in the US, premium fuel has slightly more energy than regular (up to 1%). Summer grade gas also has more energy than winter grade (about 2%). Pure gasoline also has about 4% more energy than E10 blended gas does. Also adding premix oil does lower your octane, its not a myth. It varies with the type of oil though. Also what is not mentioned here is the fact that gasoline drops in octane once it leaves the refinery, and keeps dropping in time. That is why pump octane ratings in the US are an average of refinery octane and the octane tested when it is pumped into your car at the gas station. Meaning that the actual octane of the gas is likely lower than that listed on the pump. And it continues down from there. That's the main reason I use gas stabilizer in my 2-stroke gas, and I add it at the gas station when I buy my gas (that holds for all gas: E10, regular, super, AVgas, etc.)

The octane "myth" started long ago, when they realized that higher compression gas engines resulted in more power. So they increased gas engine compression and then realized that in turn created engine knock/pre-ignition which resulted in damaged engines. So they increased the octane of the gas (with lead) to even out the burn and prevent pre-ignition, and as a result got 'more power' using higher octane and increased compression. Hence if you lower the squish in your saw (or as you say, soup it up) you want to feed it higher octane gas.

And yes, you can advance or retard the ignition timing in a 2-stroke. Just move the coil up or down relative to the magneto in the flywheel, or swap out the coil with a differently timed one. As for using regular gas in chainsaws, you have a higher risk flaring or uneven burning using that stuff. Uneven burning causes uneven pressure at TDC, and that in turn can cause piston tilt, which in turn can cause scuffing of the piston skirts and cylinder walls. For this reason most chainsaw manufacturers require you to use mid-grade US gas. Also whatever the gas or premix oil you use, re-tune the saw if you change them. My saws all rev higher with pure gas vs E10, and they also rev higher using 100% synthetic oil vs dyno oil.


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## raybonz (Apr 22, 2013)

Big Donnie Brasco said:


> I haven't gotten my saw yet (I research the cr@p out of everything)
> 
> But one thing I am seeing is that ethanol will kill a saw. Where do I get GOOD gas so my saw will last for a thousand years?
> 
> ...


I have used 10% ethanol gas in my saw for 20 years and it runs fine.. You're overthinking and underdoing Don lol.. BTW I chopped up a large cherry tree on Sunday with a low kickback chain on my little Stihl 023 and it cut great! All my oak I cut with the same type chain and it cut fine too and this oak over 16" diameter.. I believe Stihl recommends a mid grade gas but I have run regular and it ran OK but midgrade would probably be a better choice..

Ray


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## smokinj (Apr 22, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> Actually in the US, premium fuel has slightly more energy than regular (up to 1%). Summer grade gas also has more energy than winter grade (about 2%). Pure gasoline also has about 4% more energy than E10 blended gas does. Also adding premix oil does lower your octane, its not a myth. It varies with the type of oil though. Also what is not mentioned here is the fact that gasoline drops in octane once it leaves the refinery, and keeps dropping in time. That is why pump octane ratings in the US are an average of refinery octane and the octane tested when it is pumped into your car at the gas station. Meaning that the actual octane of the gas is likely lower than that listed on the pump. And it continues down from there. That's the main reason I use gas stabilizer in my 2-stroke gas, and I add it at the gas station when I buy my gas (that holds for all gas: E10, regular, super, AVgas, etc.)
> 
> The octane "myth" started long ago, when they realized that higher compression gas engines resulted in more power. So they increased gas engine compression and then realized that in turn created engine knock/pre-ignition which resulted in damaged engines. So they increased the octane of the gas (with lead) to even out the burn and prevent pre-ignition, and as a result got 'more power' using higher octane and increased compression.
> 
> And yes, you can advance or retard the ignition timing in a 2-stroke. Just move the coil up or down relative to the magneto in the flywheel, or swap out the coil with a differently timed one. As for using regular gas in chainsaws, you have a higher risk flaring or uneven burning using that stuff. Uneven burning causes uneven pressure at TDC, and that in turn can cause piston tilt, which in turn can cause scuffing of the piston skirts and cylinder walls. For this reason most chainsaw manufacturers require you to use mid-grade US gas. Also whatever the gas or premix oil you use, re-tune the saw if you change them. My saws all rev higher with pure gas vs E10, and they also rev higher using 100% synthetic oil vs dyno oil.


 

I agree you can get a little more out of better fuel. But when your already bringing the right tool for the right job its just an no-issue. No if you jump on a project that put your saw to its very limits I will run it and wished I passed on the job. 

RUN Forest Run! ( Check out the truck)


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## StihlHead (Apr 22, 2013)

You can run regular gas in saws, and many people do just that. I used to myself. However, according to all the techs that I know that tear down saws every day, they can always tell when a saw has been run on regular gas. They tend to have more carbon in the burn chamber, more gunk in the crank case and more scoring on the piston skirts and cylinder walls. Yah, they will run on regular, but in general the engines do not last as long that way. Its up to you. Ethanol can and does do a lot of engine damage, especially with marine engines and in wet environments where the ethanol picks up water and separates from the gas (called phase separation). Yah, again, you can use it.

Me? I run pure non-ethanol supreme gasoline with 100% synthetic oil (Elf) and I add StaBil red to the gas ASAP. Non ethanol super gas is not that much more expensive than regular E10 gas, and it is available at several stations in town. In my truck I use regular E10 gas... its a 4 stroke, designed to run in that stuff. Its not like I burn through 20 gallons of chainsaw gas a week... I use maybe 5 gallons a month in my 2-stroke tools (saws, blower, trimmer, etc).


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## smokinj (Apr 22, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> You can run regular gas in saws, and many people do just that. I used to myself. However, according to all the techs that I know that tear down saws every day, they can always tell when a saw has been run on regular gas. They tend to have more carbon in the burn chamber, more gunk in the crank case and more scoring on the piston skirts and cylinder walls. Yah, they will run on regular, but in general the engines do not last as long that way. Its up to you. Ethanol can and does do a lot of engine damage, especially with marine engines and in wet environments where the ethanol picks up water and separates from the gas (called phase separation). Yah, again, you can use it.
> 
> Me? I run pure non-ethanol supreme gasoline with 100% synthetic oil (Elf) and I add StaBil red to the gas ASAP. Non ethanol super gas is not that much more expensive than regular E10 gas, and it is available at several stations in town. In my truck I use regular E10 gas... its a 4 stroke, designed to run in that stuff. Its not like I burn through 20 gallons of chainsaw gas a week... I use maybe 5 gallons a month in my 2-stroke tools (saws, blower, trimmer, etc).


 
Running my 2006  ms460 she has bright and shinny cylinder walls(Don't think there would be anyone saying it is less than top shape). Oh and I have had many weeks hitting around that 20 gallon mark. That's why I like other peoples fuel better. I also use mix that's on sale most of the time. Really its pretty hard to screw up a 2cycle unless you forget the oil.


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## firefighterjake (Apr 22, 2013)

And while we're talking two-strokes . . . I ran both the "high test" and regular ethanol fuel in my sled for years (and still do) without issues . . . not that it matters one whit (since I figure what works for you is what you should go with) . . . but my last sled had over 10,000 miles on it when I sold it . . . and two stroke sleds (even used ones) are quite a bit more expensive than most chainsaws.


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## Bster13 (Apr 22, 2013)

Are there articles or studies that state that higher octane fuels have more energy in them?

I have always followed similar thinking to this article:
http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/gasoline-octane-myths.html



StihlHead said:


> Actually in the US, premium fuel has slightly more energy than regular (up to 1%). Summer grade gas also has more energy than winter grade (about 2%). Pure gasoline also has about 4% more energy than E10 blended gas does. Also adding premix oil does lower your octane, its not a myth. It varies with the type of oil though. Also what is not mentioned here is the fact that gasoline drops in octane once it leaves the refinery, and keeps dropping in time. That is why pump octane ratings in the US are an average of refinery octane and the octane tested when it is pumped into your car at the gas station. Meaning that the actual octane of the gas is likely lower than that listed on the pump. And it continues down from there. That's the main reason I use gas stabilizer in my 2-stroke gas, and I add it at the gas station when I buy my gas (that holds for all gas: E10, regular, super, AVgas, etc.)
> 
> The octane "myth" started long ago, when they realized that higher compression gas engines resulted in more power. So they increased gas engine compression and then realized that in turn created engine knock/pre-ignition which resulted in damaged engines. So they increased the octane of the gas (with lead) to even out the burn and prevent pre-ignition, and as a result got 'more power' using higher octane and increased compression. Hence if you lower the squish in your saw (or as you say, soup it up) you want to feed it higher octane gas.
> 
> And yes, you can advance or retard the ignition timing in a 2-stroke. Just move the coil up or down relative to the magneto in the flywheel, or swap out the coil with a differently timed one. As for using regular gas in chainsaws, you have a higher risk flaring or uneven burning using that stuff. Uneven burning causes uneven pressure at TDC, and that in turn can cause piston tilt, which in turn can cause scuffing of the piston skirts and cylinder walls. For this reason most chainsaw manufacturers require you to use mid-grade US gas. Also whatever the gas or premix oil you use, re-tune the saw if you change them. My saws all rev higher with pure gas vs E10, and they also rev higher using 100% synthetic oil vs dyno oil.


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## charly (Apr 22, 2013)

When I was at Harley's factory service school  years ago,  they explained the higher the octane the more stable and controlled the burn will be,,, so fuel is not starting to ignite as the piston is on it's way up to top dead center,  trying to drive it back down against rotation. To low of an octane could put you in that situation.. I've always spent 10 -20 cents more a gallon and used premium..so it cost me a dollar more for 5 gallons... At least my engines are running fine with no tear downs needed..


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## smokinj (Apr 22, 2013)

charly said:


> When I was at Harley's factory service school years ago, they explained the higher the octane the more stable and controlled the burn will be,,, so fuel is not starting to ignite as the piston is on it's way up to top dead center, trying to drive it back down against rotation. To low of an octane could put you in that situation.. I've always spent 10 -20 cents more a gallon and used premium..so it cost me a dollar more for 5 gallons... At least my engines are running fine with no tear downs needed..


 
I think everyone has said that both ways. My 460 has seen alot of fuel and more than 150 cords over 7 years. So either way have at it. If it says mix use it and if it says bar oil than there you have it. Life good if you know. Doesnt matter what school your from.  oh and btw every harley rider around here has a favorite gas station and an oil that is the only thing they will run. God forbid anything else. Nothing has changed with this thread time for myth buster or maybe 10,000 hours on a snow machine.


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## MasterMech (Apr 23, 2013)

Big Donnie Brasco said:


> Where do I get GOOD gas so my saw will last for a thousand years?​


 
Strap in. This is going to be a rough ride. 



Bster13 said:


> I don't buy the "always run 93 octane" stuff. I run what my saw calls for in the manual, much like my car. I'm of the belief I'm wasting $ otherwise and actually hurting performance.


 
Ding Ding Ding!



Joful said:


> You either run enormous chainsaws, or have an alarmingly thin wallet, if the gas your running in your saw has any bearing in how fast you empty your wallet. For the few gallons I burn per year, I'll run the good stuff (as recommended by my Stihl dealer), and have peace of mind.


 
Agreed that most of us here do not burn enough fuel to squabble over fuel cost of premium vs reg. However, "premium" gas isn't necessarily any better than "regular" or mid-grade. Some companies were using a different additive package (ie. Shell) in their premium fuel to make it "better". If your engine is designed to run 87, run 87. Running more won't _usually_ hurt but there is no benefit just from adding octane alone. Stihl specifies 89 for for their equipment because mixing oil does in fact lower the octane rating a tad.

The quality of "regular" can vary too. Usually the amount of detergent additives in the fuel is the major difference. But I add a stabilizer/detergent when I buy the fuel, and so do many of you. Hence I don't worry about it much. 



charly said:


> they explained the higher the octane the more stable and controlled the burn will be,,, so fuel is not starting to ignite as the piston is on it's way up to top dead center, trying to drive it back down against rotation.​


 
Thats it in a nutshell. Higher octane = slower burn. If the engine is designed to take advantage of that, then yes it'll make a big difference. But if the engine is timed for regular (or mid) and you aren't getting pre-ignition/detonation/spark knock then you will make more power (and do no harm) with regular.

Anybody remember cranking their distributor a few degrees and running premium when gas was cheap? 



Big Donnie Brasco said:


> Where do I get GOOD gas so my saw will last for a thousand years?​


 
Somebody is going to tell you to run AVGas (the 100LL variety most likely) in your saw. If your airport will sell it to you, you should be aware it contains lead, and lots of it. Even tho it's labled "Low-Lead", it contains around 2X the TEL that 60's automotive fuel did. Yes, AVGas stores forever, is equipment friendly, and the saws run great on it. Probably makes your manhood larger too.  But considering my outdoor power equipment exhausts within 3 ft of my face, I'll feed it a lead-free diet.



Jags said:


> I run 87 octane, 10% ethanol in all my gas engines. I don't have engine/fuel problems. I also don't drain anything...ever. Dumb luck? Probably.​


 
Yeah, dumb luck. Your saws and mine  are probably going to sieze up or explode any day now. Still waiting........



Big Donnie Brasco said:


> But one thing I am seeing is that ethanol will kill a saw.​


 
There is a lot of hype out there about 10% ethanol fuels "killing" your equipment. The ugly truth is that the fuel isn't what's doing the most damage. It's the poor storage habits of the end users. Ethanol fuels are workable, even if they aren't ideal. Don't leave your cans sweltering in a 130 degree shed, keep the cans sealed and full. Better to have 2 full cans than 4 half-empty ones. Use Star-Tron, Stabil, Sea-Foam, Yak-Piss, whatever, just some kind of stabilizer to keep new fuel fresh. Adding it 6 months after you buy the fuel isn't going to help.

If you have older hand-held equipment (pre-2000 in most cases), then I would avoid storing the equipment with fuel in it to avoid issues with deteriorating fuel lines or swelling gas caps so tight that you need a 3 ft pipe wrench to get them out. (Very common with Craftsman or Poulan saws.)


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## StihlHead (Apr 23, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> Are there articles or studies that state that higher octane fuels have more energy in them?
> 
> I have always followed similar thinking to this article:
> http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/gasoline-octane-myths.html


 
I used to believe that all standard gas had the same energy, but then I found several detailed analysis papers several years ago that showed that premium gas typically has (or had) a tad more energy that regular. Those were in the days of standard gas though, and not ethanol blends. I have lost the links to those sites, as they were on my old computer that has since died. The data that I find now online mostly list regular standard or regular E10 gas, and not premium. Standard and premium octane vary highly from brand to brand though, even in the US. In Europe gas has way higher octane than in the US. E10 is also highly variable, as in Oregon E10 is 10% ethanol and in California, E10 is 4% to 6% ethanol. Ethanol has only 60% of the energy of standard gasoline, and so the more ethanol you add, the less energy there is per gallon.

That also holds true with standard gasoline though, with the lighter components in gas like butane and propane having lower energy than the heavier components like hexane and octane. That accounts for the difference in energy between summer and winter gas blends having different vaporization pressures from the mix of lighter and heavier compounds in gas. Winter gas has more lighter compounds, and summer gas is heavier. Winter gas used to also be oxygenated with ethanol (4%) in smoggy regions, but now it is blended with higher levels of ethanol all year. The bottom line is that gas is a blend and it is not not all the same, it varies by region and by country, it does not all have the same energy or octane rating, and gas octane starts dropping from the moment that the gas is blended at the refinery. That is because the lighter compounds waft off with time. Stabilizers keep this from happening, and that is why I use it.

When I was a kid my mom used to buy 'a dollar worth of high test' at a time. That bought about 5 gallons of gas in those days. I remember regular gas being as low as 15 cents a gallon during gas wars in central Oregon in summer. By crackie, them were the good old days...


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## nate379 (Apr 23, 2013)

100LL though. Not exactly something I want to be breathing much of. Pretty hard to not be breathing the exhaust of a saw.



smokinj said:


> Small air ports will have 100 octane no ethanol. On the other hand, I have not had a fuel issue on my 460 and running strong since 2006(I do like 100 octane when On a tree that takes long cut times). Now let the hype begin!
> 
> View attachment 100307


 
When I'm done using equipment for the season, I just park it. I don't mess with the fuel, oil, battery, etc, etc, etc. My Dad usually will pull the batteries and put them in the basement of their house (it stays 55-60* down there). I don't really have a safe place to put them that stays warm so I don't bother.

The only time I've had problems is when the gas stayed in the tank for YEARS. I got a generator from a friend that had at least 15 year old gas in it. It caused a ton of rust in the tank which plugged the fuel filter. Otherwise it did run on that stuff. Not sure how because I dumped the tank out in my burn barrel and I may as well had dumped water in there.

Leaving fuel in a tank for 6-8 months shouldn't case any issues. It will likely loose a bit of it's "kick" but on OPE with a couple gallon or less tank it's used up fairly quickly.


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## Bster13 (Apr 23, 2013)

I can understand how gasoline varies from state to state and also varies depending on how old it is.  But I would think chainsaw manufacturers (and automobiles ones for that matter too) would understand the varied fuels their saws see and therefore spec something high enough to account for degradation for various reasons. Who knows..... I just keeping hearing guys at work talk about using their saws hard for X # of years and running this or that in it and "it's just fine."


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## lukem (Apr 23, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> I just keeping hearing guys at work talk about using their saws hard for X # of years and running this or that in it and "it's just fine."


 
My dad is as cheap as they come.  Spending extra money on gas is blasphemy.  He's run regular unleaded is his Homelite 360 for about 30 years now and cut at least 250 cord with it.  It still has enough compression that it feels like you are pull starting a diesel.


----------



## basod (Apr 23, 2013)

If you are near a lake or other boating destination the local gas stations are likely to have & advertise ethanol free fuel- if you're compelled to go that way

As far as additives/stabilizers go - we've had good results in small engines running Stabil at work - nothing is 100% when people gun-deck quarterly reliability starts though.
I use Seafoam at the house and the only issue I've noticed is it turns the last bit of fuel in the bottom of the bowl to a green booger clogging the brass bowl nut(main jet supply pickup in a B&S).
It cleans out easier than crusty varnish


----------



## smokinj (Apr 23, 2013)

nate379 said:


> 100LL though. Not exactly something I want to be breathing much of. Pretty hard to not be breathing the exhaust of a saw.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

The smell is awesome, but I have only ran a couple gallons of it.


----------



## MasterMech (Apr 23, 2013)

lukem said:


> feels like you are pull starting a diesel.


 
Ever try that? I had an LCT single cyl diesel in here once. Damn thing nearly broke my arm. You learn to pay real close attention to the starting procedure and when you're ready to pull, you pull like it's your last dollar on the other end of the rope! You have a one and a half rotations to get enough inertia built up to get through compression or it tries to tear your arm off.




nate379 said:


> When I'm done using equipment for the season, I just park it. I don't mess with the fuel, oil, battery, etc, etc, etc. My Dad usually will pull the batteries and put them in the basement of their house (it stays 55-60* down there). I don't really have a safe place to put them that stays warm so I don't bother.


 
You also live in Alaska, do you guys ever see 90 degrees?  Isn't all of your fuel ethanol free up there?

Boiling hot sheds, and stifling humidity are the big culprits down here in the lower 48. Lots of problems with machines that sit over the spring, summer, and fall. Very few issues with lawn and garden tractors as they sit during the cold, but relatively stable (temp wise) winter months.


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## lukem (Apr 23, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Ever try that?


 
Yup, we had an old diesel genny with a recoil (backup) starter on the farm I used to work on.  Used it to run the welder when making "offsite" repairs, etc.  The electric start went out years ago and never got fixed. 

"Tear your arm off" is a pretty accurate description.  That, or it left a wicked blister on your hand when it completely yanked the rope handle out of your hand.


----------



## nate379 (Apr 23, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Ever try that? I had an LCT single cyl diesel in here once. Damn thing nearly broke my arm. You learn to pay real close attention to the starting procedure and when you're ready to pull, you pull like it's your last dollar on the other end of the rope! You have a one and a half rotations to get enough inertia built up to get through compression or it tries to tear your arm off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, it gets in the 90s at times in Fairbanks.  Yes no ethanol, but have lived in states that do have that crap too.


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## HDRock (Apr 24, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> You can run regular gas in saws, and many people do just that. I used to myself. However, according to all the techs that I know that tear down saws every day, they can always tell when a saw has been run on regular gas. They tend to have more carbon in the burn chamber, more gunk in the crank case and more scoring on the piston skirts and cylinder walls. Yah, they will run on regular, but in general the engines do not last as long that way. Its up to you. Ethanol can and does do a lot of engine damage, especially with marine engines and in wet environments where the ethanol picks up water and separates from the gas (called phase separation). Yah, again, you can use it.
> 
> Me? I run pure non-ethanol supreme gasoline with 100% synthetic oil (Elf) and I add StaBil red to the gas ASAP. Non ethanol super gas is not that much more expensive than regular E10 gas, and it is available at several stations in town. In my truck I use regular E10 gas... its a 4 stroke, designed to run in that stuff. Its not like I burn through 20 gallons of chainsaw gas a week... I use maybe 5 gallons a month in my 2-stroke tools (saws, blower, trimmer, etc).


There are no gas stations around here that have pure gas, zero


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## MasterMech (Apr 24, 2013)

HDRock said:


> There are no gas stations around here that have pure gas, zero


 Same here, an in many other areas of the country.  Which is why it's important to educate on how ethanol blended fuels are workable rather than just doom and gloom and your equipment is all going to be scrap, etc....

Even without the ethanol, the fuel we buy these days is nowhere near as stable as it was even in the 90's.


----------



## StihlHead (Apr 24, 2013)

Workable? I always prefer an alternative to bending over and spreading them wide myself. There are good reasons why there is a huge backlash against ethanol in gas nationwide, and sites like Pure-Gas and lobby efforts against it. 

As for a lack of ethanol-free gas being available, there are over 200 gas stations and marinas in NY state that sell it. I dunno where in the Hudson Valley that you live MM, but here is a list of NY stations: http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NY

As for 'zero' places around Grand Blanc that have ethanol-free gas??? I see one listed in Waterford (not far south of Grand Blanc on my map). The list for MI: http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MI


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## MasterMech (Apr 24, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> Workable? I always prefer an alternative to bending over and spreading them wide myself. There are good reasons why there is a huge backlash against ethanol in gas nationwide, and sites like Pure-Gas and lobby efforts against it.
> 
> As for a lack of ethanol-free gas being available, there are over 200 gas stations and marinas in NY state that sell it. I dunno where in the Hudson Valley that you live MM, but here is a list of NY stations: http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NY
> 
> As for 'zero' places around Grand Blanc that have ethanol-free gas??? I see one listed in Waterford (not far south of Grand Blanc on my map). The list for MI: http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MI


 
Not one of those is within an hours drive of me. Most of them are very much so, upstate.

I am in the Middletown area.


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## Ralphie Boy (Apr 24, 2013)

I don't know all the science behind the gas wars, all I can say is I bought a case of 94 octane premix from Amick's and both my 455 Rancher and my Stihl 441run better. The 455 would hesitate until it warmed a bit; but with the 94 its off to the races as soon as she starts. The Stihl with the 94 in the tank sounds more like a 660 than a 441. But then maybe that's what I want to hear so that's why I hear it. I do wonder if I'm gonna burn a valve or something drastic like that using that stuff.


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## Bigg_Redd (Apr 24, 2013)

Big Donnie Brasco said:


> I haven't gotten my saw yet (I research the cr@p out of everything)
> 
> But one thing I am seeing is that ethanol will kill a saw. Where do I get GOOD gas so my saw will last for a thousand years?
> 
> ...


 
Get *100LL AvGas* from your local airport.

It never goes bad.  It won't gum up your carb.  It'll make your saw easier to start.


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## smokinj (Apr 24, 2013)

Ralphie Boy said:


> I don't know all the science behind the gas wars, all I can say is I bought a case of 94 octane premix from Amick's and both my 455 Rancher and my Stihl 441run better. The 455 would hesitate until it warmed a bit; but with the 94 its off to the races as soon as she starts. The Stihl with the 94 in the tank sounds more like a 660 than a 441. But then maybe that's what I want to hear so that's why I hear it. I do wonder if I'm gonna burn a valve or something drastic like that using that stuff.


 

There are no valves in a 2 cycle so your good


----------



## Jags (Apr 24, 2013)

Bigg_Redd said:


> Get *100LL AvGas* from your local airport.
> 
> It never goes bad. It won't gum up your carb. It'll make your saw easier to start.


 

Dunno, Redd.  I don't much care for the idea of leaded exhaust being less than 3 ft from my face. Even the LL av-gas has over double the lead that was used for automotive fuel.  If it is of no concern, then burn on brother, but I am not a fan.


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## MasterMech (Apr 24, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Somebody is going to tell you to run AVGas (the 100LL variety most likely) in your saw.


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## jharkin (Apr 24, 2013)

Avgas? I wouldn't bother for many reasons:


Current going price is about $6.50 a gallon
Other than being ethanol free, 100LL doesn't have anything magic in it that will make it store longer than pump gas. Gas goes bad from the hydrocarbons oxidizing - I'd still use stabil/seafom/etc for storage.
It does have better quality control and better additives so the equipment will run a little cleaner. Would you notice a real world difference in a saw? probably not unless you leave old gas sitting in the carb for years unrun.
Assuming the saw is designed for 87 octane you will have slightly _less_ power output (remember, the higher the octane the lower the specific energy of the fuel)
As Jags mentions, it has a *lot* of lead in it - *2 grams* of TEL per gallon, whereas back in the day leaded mogas had something like* 0.1g* TEL/gal and that was bad news. I wouldn't want to use it. There is talk of it being banned eventually in aviation as well.
Also the high lead content of 100LL can foul spark plugs over time if the motor is not designed for it like aviation engines.


----------



## jharkin (Apr 24, 2013)

One other comment about octane.  Don't forget that in Europe they use RON to label fuels, not the AKI method (RON+MON/2) we use here.  I beleive that in many countries over there the typical fuels are 91 RON (87 usa), 95 RON (90 usa)  and 98 RON (93 usa)  If you buy a European brand saw (Stihl, Husquavarna) and the manual calls for high octane it might be worthwhile checking if it really needs our high octane gas or its just  a direct translation of the Euro spec.


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## BobUrban (Apr 24, 2013)

I run premium pump gas in all my toys and mix the marine grade Stabil in all my tanks.   I have no access locally for non-corn gas so I just go with what is available and when I store the saws I dump the gas back into the can and run a little of the pre-mix high quality stuff into the saw for a few seconds and call it good.  I am not sure any of this is necessary but I like to take care of my toys and like them to start when needed so this provides me peace of mind which I find "priceless"


----------



## nate379 (Apr 24, 2013)

Already discussed this. I run a 50/50 mix in my race car (it's tuned to run on it) and you can smell the fumes from feet away. Do you want to be breathing that in from a muffler that is 3ft your face?



Bigg_Redd said:


> Get *100LL AvGas* from your local airport.
> 
> It never goes bad. It won't gum up your carb. It'll make your saw easier to start.


----------



## HDRock (Apr 24, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> Workable? I always prefer an alternative to bending over and spreading them wide myself. There are good reasons why there is a huge backlash against ethanol in gas nationwide, and sites like Pure-Gas and lobby efforts against it.
> 
> As for a lack of ethanol-free gas being available, there are over 200 gas stations and marinas in NY state that sell it. I dunno where in the Hudson Valley that you live MM, but here is a list of NY stations: http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NY
> 
> As for 'zero' places around Grand Blanc that have ethanol-free gas??? I see one listed in Waterford (not far south of Grand Blanc on my map). The list for MI: [URL='http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MI[/quote']http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MI[/URL]


The one you mentioned is 35mi away, and a Marina not open in winter, I did find another station 20mi away but ,40mi to go get some gas ?


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## Nixon (Apr 24, 2013)

[quote="HDRock, post: 1437779, ] I did find another station 20mi away but ,40mi to go get some gas ?[/quote]

I do around 30 to get mine . It's worth it to me ,as the ethanol gas here can go form 8 to 15 percent ( personally tested ) .


----------



## MasterMech (Apr 24, 2013)

Still waiting for someone to build a saw to run E85.  You can make big power on alchohol. 

Gonna drink fuel quick for sure but might be fun!

I have thought about converting my big truck to run E85 exclusively but only a couple stations around here and I don't pass them frequently.


----------



## StihlHead (Apr 24, 2013)

HDRock said:


> The one you mentioned is 35mi away, and a Marina not open in winter, I did find another station 20mi away but ,40mi to go get some gas ?


 
Well, you said there was zero availability for E0 gas for you. Now you want things to be more convenient? I have to go 15 miles each way to get E0 here, and I am happy to do it. I fill up a 5 gallon can of E0 on my way to town once or twice a month. It has zero impact as I have to go 20 miles one way just to go to the grocery and hardware stores anyway. If you add StaBil like I do, the gas will stay fresh for a year (in the can and in the saws). Double the amount of Stabil and it will stay fresh for two years. And w/o any ethanol in there, there is no moisture absorbed by the gas over time and no chance for phase separation. It works for me... I guess it all depends on your use, priorities and investments. I have a lot of 2-stroke equipment that I use all the time and money tied up in them, so for me its a no-brainer.


----------



## StihlHead (Apr 24, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Still waiting for someone to build a saw to run E85. You can make big power on alchohol.
> 
> Gonna drink fuel quick for sure but might be fun!
> 
> I have thought about converting my big truck to run E85 exclusively but only a couple stations around here and I don't pass them frequently.


 
Likely there are saws made in Brazil to run E85. Good luck getting E85 to start in a chainsaw below freezing. For that reason winter blended E85 is really E70. E85 also gets you about 33% less gas mileage.


----------



## MasterMech (Apr 24, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> E85 also gets you about 33% less gas mileage.


 
That's huge.  Couple people I know of that run it in their newer vehicles and see a 2-3 MPG drop in mileage. That's roughly a 10-12% drop.  If that 10% applied to my big truck, I would see less than a 1 MPG reduction.


----------



## StihlHead (Apr 24, 2013)

jharkin said:


> One other comment about octane. Don't forget that in Europe they use RON to label fuels, not the AKI method (RON+MON/2) we use here. I beleive that in many countries over there the typical fuels are 91 RON (87 usa), 95 RON (90 usa) and 98 RON (93 usa) If you buy a European brand saw (Stihl, Husquavarna) and the manual calls for high octane it might be worthwhile checking if it really needs our high octane gas or its just a direct translation of the Euro spec.


 
Both Husky and Stihl specifically retune their imported European (and other sourced) saws to run on US grades of gasoline. Both call for US mid-grade gas of 89 AKI or above. There have been many issues with Dolmar saws, especially the 5100s that were not re-tuned for lower US octane gas and they blew up a lot as a result. Many threads on that issue online.

European gas typically has higher octane than in the US. It also depends on where in Europe you are, but you can get super premium grades there for cars that are not available here in the US. Specifically in France (and most of Europe), regular unleaded gas has a RON of 95, and an AKI equivalent of 91, which is just below supreme gas here in the US. V-Power Supreme in Germany has a RON of 100, and an AKI of about 95.

They just ain't the same.


----------



## jharkin (Apr 24, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> That's huge. Couple people I know of that run it in their newer vehicles and see a 2-3 MPG drop in mileage. That's roughly a 10-12% drop. If that 10% applied to my big truck, I would see less than a 1 MPG reduction.


 
Are they sure its only 10% ?  Ethanol has a much lower BTU content per gallon (70k vs 115k if I recall) and runs at a much richer ideal A/F ratio (8:1 vs 14.7:1)


----------



## StihlHead (Apr 24, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> That's huge. Couple people I know of that run it in their newer vehicles and see a 2-3 MPG drop in mileage. That's roughly a 10-12% drop. If that 10% applied to my big truck, I would see less than a 1 MPG reduction.


 
Well, I do not know where they get those numbers. Do the math: E85 is 85% ethanol (summer blend). Ethanol has 60% of the energy of gasoline. 15% is the same, add 85% multiplied by 60% to that to get a result 51%, and so 15% + 51% = 66%. So E85 is 34% less fuel efficient than standard (E0) gasoline. Comparing E85 to E10 which has 4% less energy than E0, E85 has 70% of the energy of E10, and is 30% less fuel efficient. Even comparing E70 (winter blend E85) to E10, E85W has 76% of the energy of E10, or 24% less fuel efficient.

10%? no way Jose....


----------



## smokinj (Apr 24, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> Well, I do not know where they get those numbers. Do the math: E85 is 85% ethanol (summer blend). Ethanol has 60% of the energy of gasoline. 15% is the same, add 85% multiplied by 60% to that to get a result 51%, and so 15% + 51% = 66%. So E85 is 34% less fuel efficient than standard (E0) gasoline. Comparing E85 to E10 which has 4% less energy than E0, E85 has 70% of the energy of E10, and is 30% less fuel efficient. Even comparing E70 (winter blend E85) to E10, E85W has 76% of the energy of E10, or 24% less fuel efficient.
> 
> 10%? no way Jose....


----------



## HDRock (Apr 24, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> Well, you said there was zero availability for E0 gas for you. Now you want things to be more convenient? I have to go 15 miles each way to get E0 here, and I am happy to do it. I fill up a 5 gallon can of E0 on my way to town once or twice a month. It has zero impact as I have to go 20 miles one way just to go to the grocery and hardware stores anyway. If you add StaBil like I do, the gas will stay fresh for a year (in the can and in the saws). Double the amount of Stabil and it will stay fresh for two years. And w/o any ethanol in there, there is no moisture absorbed by the gas over time and no chance for phase separation. It works for me... I guess it all depends on your use, priorities and investments. I have a lot of 2-stroke equipment that I use all the time and money tied up in them, so for me its a no-brainer.


I didn't know there was a station that distance ,now I do ,thanks for the info.
I do use stabil when I fill a can, If I go to that station and get 5 or 10 gal, It will probably be worth the trip, thanks again for the info
I may be spoiled to , grocery store is half a mi, hardware is 3mi, Home Depot 2mi etc, you get the idea, most any thing I need is within 5 to 10mi or less


----------



## Pallet Pete (Apr 24, 2013)

I just run premium with a cap full of motor cote gas additive in 5 gallons and the saws love it.

http://www.motorkote.com/optimizer.aspx?b=10&d=27&k=10&c=52

Pete


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## Ashful (Apr 24, 2013)

I think Donnie is regretting what he started.  I sure am...


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## MasterMech (Apr 24, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Are they sure its only 10% ? Ethanol has a much lower BTU content per gallon (70k vs 115k if I recall) and runs at a much richer ideal A/F ratio (8:1 vs 14.7:1)


 I'm only reporting what they tell me.  I don't have a flex-fuel vehicle to try E85 in myself.  I don't think I'd be burning off a lot of it in a daily driver if the 30% number turns out to be right on.


----------



## Bigg_Redd (Apr 25, 2013)

nate379 said:


> Already discussed this. I run a 50/50 mix in my race car (it's tuned to run on it) and you can smell the fumes from feet away. Do you want to be breathing that in from a muffler that is 3ft your face?


 
Yes.  I'm no chemist, and I'm guessing you're not either, but why would you think think that the god-knows-what in pump gas is any better for you at 3' than AvGas?


----------



## Bigg_Redd (Apr 25, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Avgas? *I wouldn't bother for many reasons:*
> 
> 
> Current going price is about $6.50 a gallon
> ...


 
Said everyone that's never used it. . .


----------



## nate379 (Apr 25, 2013)

Because the Tetraethyl lead in av gas was banned from use in cars because it's a poison. I'm sure reg gas isn't white puffy colds on rainbow island either, but it's at least a little better.

Also it's a very dry fuel.  I know a few guys that have toasted car engines running with without any lube additives.  In my car I run a 50/50 mix of 100LL and pump fuel.  If you insist on running it in a saw you should probably up the mix ratio a bit.  


From the interwebs: (TEL is Tetraethyl lead)

Lead pollution from engine exhaust is dispersed into the air and into the vicinity of roads and easily inhaled. Contact with concentrated TEL leads to acute lead poisoning:

Lead is a toxic metal that accumulates in the body and is associated with subtle and insidious neurotoxic effects especially at low exposure levels, such as low IQ and antisocial behavior.[21][22][23] It has particularly harmful effects on children. These concerns eventually led to the ban on TEL in automobile gasoline in many countries. Some neurologists have speculated that the lead phaseout may have caused average IQ levels to rise by several points in the US (by reducing cumulative brain damage throughout the population, especially in the young). For the entire US population, during and after the TEL phaseout, the mean blood lead level dropped from 16 μg/dL in 1976 to only 3 μg/dL in 1991.[24] The US Centers for Disease Control considered blood lead levels "elevated" when they were above 10 μg/dL. Lead exposure affects the intelligence quotient (IQ) such that a blood lead level of 30 μg/dL is associated with a 6.9-point reduction of IQ, with most reduction (3.9 points) occurring below 10 μg/dL.[25]

A statistically significant correlation has been found between the usage rate of leaded gasoline and violent crime: taking into account a 22-year time lag, the violent crime curve virtually tracks the lead exposure curve.[24][26] After the ban on TEL, blood lead levels in US children dramatically decreased.[24]

Although leaded gasoline is largely gone in North America, it has left high concentrations of lead in the soil adjacent to roads that were constructed prior to its phaseout. Children are particularly at risk if they consume this.[27]



Bigg_Redd said:


> Yes. I'm no chemist, and I'm guessing you're not either, but why would you think think that the god-knows-what in pump gas is any better for you at 3' than AvGas?


----------



## Bigg_Redd (Apr 25, 2013)

So you're saying that occasional proximity to the exhaust fumes of leaded gasoline is analogous to eating chips of lead based paint?

Rilly?


----------



## StihlHead (Apr 25, 2013)

Bigg_Redd said:


> Yes. I'm no chemist, and I'm guessing you're not either, but why would you think think that the god-knows-what in pump gas is any better for you at 3' than AvGas?


 
Its the lead... lead is far worse than anything else in gas exhaust fumes at 3 feet. It does not burn, and is released in the exhaust. Gas is highly toxic but when its burned it produces mostly CO2 and water. TEL also burns to produce CO2 and water, _and lead_, and there are also lead based scavenging compounds in leaded gas to keep the burned TEL lead from building up in the engine. All the lead is pumped out into the air around the saw. And no, I am not a chemist either, just an engineer...


----------



## StihlHead (Apr 25, 2013)

Bigg_Redd said:


> So you're saying that occasional proximity to the exhaust fumes of leaded gasoline is analogous to eating chips of lead based paint?
> 
> Rilly?


 
During the days of leaded gas and the onset of heavy traffic in places like Los Angeles, the CA Highway Patrol were getting sick and having mental problems. It was discovered that they had half the lethal dose of lead in their bloodstreams. Those findings started the process of removing lead from gas in CA and then nationally. First it was low lead, then no lead. Any lead exposure is not good, and neurotoxic effects are common even with low levels of lead exposure. The main problem is that lead accumulates in the body from exposure over time and it takes a long time for your body to eliminate it.

So yes, parking yourself by a chainsaw spewing fumes from running leaded AVgas, even occasionally, is a bad thing boss. Its make yu dummer, amung otter thangs.


----------



## MasterMech (Apr 25, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> So yes, parking yourself by a chainsaw spewing fumes from running leaded AVgas, even occasionally, is a bad thing boss. Its make yu dummer, amung otter thangs.​


 

rilly? is tat da onist trooth?


----------



## StihlHead (Apr 25, 2013)

Yuppers, it be the tooth, boss! What y'all doin' up so lates any aways, east crust times? Yo be sniffin' gas agains?


----------



## MasterMech (Apr 25, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> Yuppers, it be the tooth, boss! What y'all doin' up so lates any aways, east crust times? Yo be sniffin' gas agains?


 3rd shift, lunch time.


----------



## nate379 (Apr 25, 2013)

What hours is 3rd shift? I worked 3rd shift for a few years and it was 3PM-11PM. 1st shift was 11PM-7AM, 2nd was 7AM-3PM.

The clock on this board says you posted at 04:37, I'm guessing that's your time? It's 01:41 here.  I'm up cause I just finished painting some cabinets and I'm taking a few min break before going to bed.


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## jharkin (Apr 25, 2013)

AVgas -  airplanes fly it, so it *MUST* be better in everything, right?

uhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I think if you took a look at a typical light aviation engine like the Lycoming and Continental flat 4s and 6s in your typical Cessna or Piper you might change your opinion.  These beasts are nothing at all like our typical car or lawn equipment engines.  These engines are very old designs (going back to the 40s): low compression, pushrod, magneto ignition, and mostly carbureted. Large displacement but quite low specific HP  (150 hp typical for 300cid and the larger 300+hp models are 500-540cid) as they are optimized to produce peak power at low RPM (2000-3000) and run at constant speed for long periods while minimizing fuel consumption.

The primary goal in aviation is reliability and for that they stick with time proven designs and change slowly. There are fuel injected models, but the majority of the engines out there are still older carburetor models.  There are lots of 20, 30 yr and older Cessna's out flying with engines of similar vintage (rebuilt many times).  Many "new" production light engines are actually rebuilds using old crankcases as the castings have very long lifetimes and there is a lot of incentive to rebuild given the operating costs in aviation.

As mentioned a while back there has been a push to eliminate 100LL fuel altogether but the big stumbling block is the large fleet of engines in service that would have to be rebuilt with hardened valve trains and new fuel systems. In fact conversion kits to run aircraft engines on auto fuel are becoming a big business in sport aviation as recreational pilots are trying to reduce costs.


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## Ashful (Apr 25, 2013)

nate379 said:


> What hours is 3rd shift? I worked 3rd shift for a few years and it was 3PM-11PM. 1st shift was 11PM-7AM, 2nd was 7AM-3PM.


 
Around here:

1st:  6am - 2pm or 7am - 3pm
2nd:  8 hours after first
3rd:  8 hours after second, the "overnight"


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## Bigg_Redd (Apr 25, 2013)

<- - - standing down


----------



## MasterMech (Apr 25, 2013)

nate379 said:


> What hours is 3rd shift? I worked 3rd shift for a few years and it was 3PM-11PM. 1st shift was 11PM-7AM, 2nd was 7AM-3PM.
> 
> The clock on this board says you posted at 04:37, I'm guessing that's your time? It's 01:41 here. I'm up cause I just finished painting some cabinets and I'm taking a few min break before going to bed.


 
Yeah, the military calls my hours (11pm-7am) "first shift" (which technically it is) while the civilian world labels it in order of desirability.


----------



## nate379 (Apr 25, 2013)

Huh, interesting. I think the 3-11 is the best shift. Can get stuff done during the day and you still get home at a normal hour.  Plus the boss and other idiots are at home so we can actually work and not worry about 628 different b/s "safety" procedures to do a simple job.



MasterMech said:


> Yeah, the military calls my hours (11pm-7am) "first shift" (which technically it is) while the civilian world labels it in order of desirability.


----------



## MasterMech (Apr 25, 2013)

nate379 said:


> Huh, interesting. I think the 3-11 is the best shift. Can get stuff done during the day and you still get home at a normal hour.


The crew we have on my shift is second to none with a get 'er done attitude.  Makes up for the hours.


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## Pallet Pete (Apr 25, 2013)

Sorry Donnie I think this horse got beat to death then revived then kicked to death again :D its still funny though ! 

Pete


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## Jags (Apr 25, 2013)

Pete - your observation is wise.  Very little could be added in terms of real content here, so I think we will close this one down.


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