# Any wood inserts work well without blower?



## Rcr72 (Jan 30, 2015)

I've got a small home at 7000 ft elevation, with frequent power outages. Thinking about putting a wood insert in my fireplace.

Does anyone know of any inserts that do well WITHOUT a blower? Given my goal of using this during power outages, I'm trying to find a model/design that's still effective without electricity.

(Yes, I wish I had space for a wood stove, but don't.)

Any thoughts on brands/models that might work?


----------



## begreen (Jan 30, 2015)

Most inserts are convective. They are designed with a jacket around the firebox that needs a blower to move the air through it to provide best performance. There is an exception. The Regency Hearth Heater is a medium sized insert that heats well reasonably without the blower running. It does this by extending far out onto the hearth. In general, the more the stove extends out to the hearth, the more likely it will heat somewhat during a power outage. Pacific Energy has designed their inserts to convect effectively with the blower off.

Another alternative is to put a rear-exit, freestanding stove on the hearth. How large an area are you heating and what are the fireplace dimensions?

http://www.regency-fire.com/Products/Wood/Wood-Inserts/H2100.aspx


----------



## gzecc (Jan 30, 2015)

Inserts tend to have multiple walls to blow the air into the room from inside a fireplace. That prevents them from being good stand alone stoves.


----------



## Rcr72 (Jan 30, 2015)

begreen said:


> The Regency Hearth Heater... Pacific Energy has designed their inserts to convect effectively with the blower off.


Will check that out.



begreen said:


> Another alternative is to put a rear-exit, freestanding stove on the hearth. How large an area are you heating and what are the fireplace dimensions?



The opening of the fireplace is 24" (h) x 36" (w). I like the idea of a freestanding stove on the hearth, but unfortunately my hearth is only 16".


----------



## begreen (Jan 30, 2015)

At 24" high a freestanding stove is unlikely to fit in there, and low for rear vent stoves too. Can you post a picture of the fireplace? Another option would be to install a freestanding/insert stove like those made by Buck. Don't get the surround and install as an insert. With a damper sealing block-off plate you will get most of the heat without the blower. I believe the Avalon Rainier can also be installed like this.


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 30, 2015)

If you do go the insert route I agree that extending onto the hearth (as opposed to flush mount) is desirable both for day to day operation and during power outages. Another relatively inexpensive accessory would be battery backup. I have one for my set up. I've forgotten how long it will run the fans but it was several hours. Size one according to your expected needs. I did go an extended period of time w/o power after one of our recent hurricanes and was re-charging the battery back up with the generator while running the fridge and hot water heater then running house lights off the battery back up while the generator was off. Worked out quite well.


----------



## begreen (Jan 30, 2015)

How large an area will the insert be heating? How tall is the chimney?


----------



## Rcr72 (Jan 30, 2015)

begreen said:


> At 24" high a freestanding stove is unlikely to fit in there, and low for rear vent stoves too. Can you post a picture of the fireplace? Another option would be to install a freestanding/insert stove like those made by Buck. Don't get the surround and install as an insert. With a damper sealing block-off plate you will get most of the heat without the blower. I believe the Avalon Rainier can also be installed like this.



I'm posting a picture of my fireplace. Although 24" high, it does have a 5" dropoff inside the fireplace. Does that open up any other options?

I'll check those models. Thanks

I'm only trying to heat a 530' home, but it's 7000' elevation and not very good insulation.


----------



## Syd'sDad (Jan 30, 2015)

Look into the Kuma line of stoves. I was going to purchase a sequoia insert but decided to get a free standing sequoia for a basement install.  Haven't needed a blower at all due to the natural convection that circulates the heat well.  If you don't want a large insert like the sequoia check out their aspen model.


----------



## begreen (Jan 30, 2015)

With an insert that is not flush it looks like you are going to need a hearth extension regardless. The hearth needs to extend 16" in front of the glass. 

530 sq ft is not much to heat. It shouldn't take much stove. One option I would consider is cutting down the current hearth to floor level, then extending it to accommodate a stove. This can be done so that there is a uniform surface in front of the fireplace. I would consider putting in a Woodstock Keystone or Blaze King Ashford 20 stove then. 

How tall is the chimney? This is critical at high altitude.


----------



## timfromohio (Jan 30, 2015)

My PE insert was next to useless without the blower.  I'd not let this be a limiting factor in your selection.  Get a medium sized AGM battery, small inverter, and you're done.


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (Jan 30, 2015)

For 530 sqf a small stove should be more than sufficient. As to the 24" height, there are stoves lower than that. What people also opt for is buying a relatively small stove, remove the pedestal and replace that with short legs. See that a lot.


----------



## Grisu (Jan 30, 2015)

timfromohio said:


> My PE insert was next to useless without the blower.  I'd not let this be a limiting factor in your selection.  Get a medium sized AGM battery, small inverter, and you're done.



I have the PE Super and run it regularly without the blower on. Any heat that is retained in the fireplace cavity is taken up by the bricks surrounding it and radiates nicely into the house for hours and hours even after the fire is out. Was that fireplace at an exterior wall? You may have lost a lot of heat out the back to the outside.


----------



## Grisu (Jan 30, 2015)

Rcr72 said:


> I'm posting a picture of my fireplace. Although 24" high, it does have a 5" dropoff inside the fireplace. Does that open up any other options?
> 
> I'll check those models. Thanks
> 
> I'm only trying to heat a 530' home, but it's 7000' elevation and not very good insulation.



Do you have a masonry flue or is it a metal pipe? What is behind the fireplace?


----------



## begreen (Jan 30, 2015)

Ya know, in a 530 sq ft house a bit of inefficiency might not hurt, especially with a conventional fireplace insert. Otherwise you will be opening windows in milder weather, which isn't too efficient either. I'm thinking a Buck 20 cat insert installed without a surround may be the easiest install and more than enough stove, even with the power out.

The question is how tall is the chimney?


----------



## Rcr72 (Jan 30, 2015)

begreen said:


> Ya know, in a 530 sq ft house a bit of inefficiency might not hurt, especially with a conventional fireplace insert...
> 
> The question is how tall is the chimney?



From the top of the fireplace to the chimney opening is 12.5 feet. It's a masonry flue. Behind the fireplace is concrete block wall (and then outside).

By "a bit of inefficiency might not hurt", do you mean the inefficiency of no blower?


----------



## timfromohio (Jan 30, 2015)

Grisu said:


> I have the PE Super and run it regularly without the blower on. Any heat that is retained in the fireplace cavity is taken up by the bricks surrounding it and radiates nicely into the house for hours and hours even after the fire is out. Was that fireplace at an exterior wall? You may have lost a lot of heat out the back to the outside.



The other side of the brick chimney was in a garage, so some heat lost, but not like being a true exterior wall.  The insert was located in the bottom level of split-level home the front side of which was under ground level, so it was naturally a few degrees cooler than the other levels.  All that said, the insert really was next to useless without the blower going.  With the blower, it was great (other than the blower noise that we got tired of)


----------



## begreen (Jan 30, 2015)

Rcr72 said:


> From the top of the fireplace to the chimney opening is 12.5 feet. It's a masonry flue. Behind the fireplace is concrete block wall (and then outside).
> 
> By "a bit of inefficiency might not hurt", do you mean the inefficiency of no blower?


Yes, a bit of heat loss and slower heat output without the blower could be a good thing.

I am concerned that the chimney is much too short for your altitude. Thin air means more chimney needed to draft properly. Most inserts want 15-16 ft at sea level which translates to more like 22-25ft at 7000 ft. Here is the chart for the Encore cat stove. Is it possible to extend the chimney?


----------



## Rcr72 (Jan 31, 2015)

begreen said:


> I am concerned that the chimney is much too short for your altitude... Most inserts want 15-16 ft at sea level which translates to more like 22-25ft at 7000 ft.



I wasn't expecting that.
Attaching a photo of my chimney.. it's currently 12 feet from "top of fireplace" to "top of chimney". Does that mean I should have 10+ feet of the 6" steel chimney tube coming out the top of my current chimney?


----------



## begreen (Jan 31, 2015)

Yes, that's a very short chimney for this altitude, especially for a modern stove. The recommendation for 7000' is 25 ft of chimney. Some stoves can get away with less, like a PE Super perhaps. Though it's hard to say how much less. Good draft is the engine of the stove. It's critical to decent performance.


----------



## Grisu (Jan 31, 2015)

I would consider a pellet stove. It will give you a way more regulated heat output and would not have a problem with a short flue. For that small space you should not need that much.


----------



## Rcr72 (Jan 31, 2015)

begreen said:


> The recommendation for 7000' is 25 ft of chimney.



Is that going to be the case with both fireplace inserts and freestanding stoves?

Thanks for all the input


----------



## begreen (Jan 31, 2015)

Yes, pretty much any modern stove or insert is tested at the EPA standard of 15-16'. There are some easier breathing stoves that have a 12' minimum requirement. I would stick with one of those and add some chimney. Class A pipe can be bolted and joined to the top of the existing structure with a special top plate. Or more block and tile could be added to raise it. For sure you will want the liner to be insulated. Or perhaps you could try and find an older pre-EPA insert in good condition if local regulations permit it. They can be less fussy, but not nearly as clean or efficient.

(PS: Buck says that the Buck 20 can run with as low as .03wc draft.)


----------



## begreen (Jan 31, 2015)

Looks like the Kuma Aspen also has a shorter chimney requirement of 12ft. It might be worth calling them and see what they recommend for your altitude.
http://kumastoves.com/index.php


----------



## TomatoLover (Feb 1, 2015)

Rcr72 said:


> I've got a small home at 7000 ft elevation, with frequent power outages. Thinking about putting a wood insert in my fireplace.
> 
> Does anyone know of any inserts that do well WITHOUT a blower? Given my goal of using this during power outages, I'm trying to find a model/design that's still effective without electricity.
> 
> ...



We have a Lopi 1750 insert.  I think the "insert" name on this one is a bit of a misnomer, as it sits out on the hearth about 10".  So it is not a flush insert.  It has a cooktop, which is great for power outages (actually, I cook on or in the Lopi nearly every night, even with power!).  Although the blower definitely moves the heat, it can run without the blower and still send a lot of heat into the room.  We had a power outage last week for about 36 hours.  We placed an EcoFan (does not require electric -- heat activated) on top of the Lopi and it moved a lot of heat.  After a few hours, it moved enough warm air to the other side of the house (about 50 feet) so that temps were 80 near the stove and 72 on the other end of the house (too hot, but we're still new at this - we often have to open a window).  The Lopi heats 1400 sq. ft. easily on 2 loads per day -- loads are maple, oak, and birch, maybe 5-6 splits (firebox 3/4 full).  It may overheat your space, depending on insulation, etc.


----------



## Randy700 (Feb 1, 2015)

begreen said:


> The Regency Hearth Heater is a medium sized insert that heats well reasonably without the blower running. It does this by extending far out onto the hearth. In general, the more the stove extends out to the hearth, the more likely it will heat somewhat during a power outage


Hello,RCR72and Begreen,
Just wanted to add that with my hearth heater,I must run the blower at all times. Because the walls behind and next too it, get very hot out to about three feet. Also I would not recommend my stove for your home,since were always being cooked out of the house with temps between 80-85  and our home is 1172 sqft (even at your elev. go with something smaller or as sugg. a pellet stove).


----------

