# My Magic Heat Reveiw



## Ducky (Nov 4, 2010)

Hello all.  I posted here once before but,  havent in years.  I often refer here for guidance and know that many of you do not care for the Magic Heat appliance.


First off,  I am heating my garage with Wood.  with a Vermont Castings Vigilant from 1977.  I got it free from a cousin after my father passed away.  My garage is quite large,  with no interior walls except for a 'mans' bathroom (2200 sq ft)

National Fuel,  who became one big gigantic pain in my ass the first year I ran the stove,  forced me to tell them that unless they come take their meter (this was after 6 calls over 2 months to turn off the gas)  that if they dont remove the meter  (they were charging me $20 a month rent for their meter) that I would go out the next day, and physically cut the meter off my building with my sawzall...  amazingly,  with in 2 hrs a guy was here to lock the meter 

so...  I began burning wood as my primary heat source in 2007... so 4 years,  this will be my 4th year.  I got the stove, the pipe the whole thing free.  (i was majorly short on cash) from my cousin...

I had researched far and wide of way to maximize the heat output of my stove,  as that was my primary heat source...

box fans, blowing at the stove,  cieling fan running blah blah blah.

ok,  so...  after 3 years I came to the conclusion that my stove,  was too small for the area that I am heating.  it kept the shop at like 60F   65F if I got out of bed,  and cranked it all day...

60F for a working shop is kinda chilly...  Dad kept it at 65F,  and when working on a car,  near the floor...  it was cold lol  I know I am lucky, but still complaining...

I bought a much larger stove on CL,  and it came with a Magic Heat box...  which,  for PURE experiment,  I set it on top of the stove (not in the pipe)  and was FLOORED  by the heat which it put out just by sitting atop the pipe.


So,  I decided to buy a Magic Heat for my pipe size (6inch)  Now I know that my stove should have 8inch, but it came with a reducer, 4 sections of black pipe 2 sections of double wall and cap - free, all i had to buy was the roof kit... 

so since i am poor...  I kept the 6inch pipe,  and bought my box for the 6inch pipe...

ok,  so...  after 4hrs,  with a friend of mine,  we got it installed...  

Let me say that I do not need a larger stove.

the heat this sucker puts out is AMAZING.

also,  creosote build up...  I clean my pipe once a year, and the creosote is like crunchy burnt powdery stuff.  I have never seen the sticky goo I have seen on this site from my stove.

So...  right now I got my stove running...  with the Magic Heat box in the pipe,  and the extra box sitting atop the stove,  and as of right now,  my shop,  is 72F with an outside temp of 40F...  thats a first,  in my lifetime,  and I scored big this year as I got all my wood  for free =D


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 5, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Ducky.  You are definitely in the minority on this gadget. If it works for you, good for you. I'll still not recommend them.


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## 73blazer (Nov 5, 2010)

I don't think anyone questions that fact that they put out decent amount of heat. 
The concern, I thought,  was always the cooling of the flue and the creosote that effect creates in the flue above the unit, that, and it makes it somewhat more challenging to clean the flue, depending on setup of course. 

Everyone has their opinions, so long as you keep your flue clean, and with the unit that may mean more regular cleaning, but if your vigilant about keeping the flue clean, I don't see much of a problem in running them. 

A cabin I goto sometimes w/ a buddy of mine, it's a hunting cabin that like 10 guys own (I'm not one of them), it's fairly large, it has one of these on a 1960's Wards stove and it really cranks the heat. I actually experimented with the MH on and with it off, different days, outside temp within a couple degrees, and MH on is far better at heating the place than with not running it. That flue is cleaned every time someone goes up there though and it's straight and easy.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 5, 2010)

I seriously question whether the thing heats any better than just having a blower on the stove. And really am concerned about the part of the MH manual that instructs what to do to keep from frying the electronics in a power failure. I can't always schedule when to be standing there when the power goes out.

And then we get to the part about cleaning the sote out of it...


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## pen (Nov 5, 2010)

The name says it all:

mag·ic
–noun
1.
the art of producing illusions as entertainment by the use of sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; legerdemain; conjuring: to pull a rabbit out of a hat by magic. 
2.
the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. Compare contagious magic, imitative magic, sympathetic magic.


Sorry, but w/ today's EPA standards there isn't much waste going up the chimney other than what is absolutely necessary to maintain a clean chimney and adequate draft so that the secondaries in the stove have enough draft to operate.  

In summation:  If you have an old school / wasteful stove that you burn good wood in and run HOT, and / or a new one that you run walnuts to the wall because it is too small for your space, then this will gain you extra heat and probably not cause you any trouble.  However, in normal cases with a modern stove, this is simply ridiculous.  I went from 5 to 5.5 cords of wood w/ my old fisher down to no more than 4 cords of wood to heat my less than efficient 1960's home from from my basement w/ wood for a year w/ no supplemental heat.  If you think you can really do much better than that with some "magic", then you are simply fooling yourself.  

pen


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## Battenkiller (Nov 5, 2010)

I'm really concerned about the thing turning on at 150ºF and off at 110º.  So that means the max flue temp you'll ever see is 150º?  That ain't gonna provide much draft, particularly in warmer weather, where you might then only have as little as a 50º temperature differential between the average stack temperature and the outside air.  

Plus, your pipe will always be cool enough for water generated by combustion to condense on the flue walls.  There is an enormous amount of water generated by burning even the very driest of wood.  Oxygen combines with the hydrogen atoms in your wood to form new water that was never there in the first place.  Over half a pound of water for every pound of dry wood is actually created by the chemical reactions involved in burning, so you can never escape the water problem.  A big part of safe burning is keeping flue temps high enough so all this water (plus the water that was still present in the seasoned wood) escapes from the top of the stack as water vapor without condensing back into liquid water.  Condensation plus smoke equals liquid creosote on your flue pipe walls.  Period.

I'm not trying to suggest you do anything different, it's your life, but there are some very good reasons why lowering stack temps is not a desirable thing, and why we are against them by and large.  As BB said, you can probably get the same amount of extra heat by using a fan on your stove and giving it more air, and do it a lot safer with a vastly cleaner burn.  We all pollute the air a bit no matter how we try and how great our stove is, but the idea is to do your part and contribute as little to despoiling the air as possible.  It's these sorts of practices that led to the EPA regulations in the first place.  If we don't pitch in and do our part, they may someday ban the practice of wood heating altogether.

Sorry for the rant.  Now back to your regularly scheduled program.


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## branchburner (Nov 5, 2010)

pen said:
			
		

> Sorry, but w/ today's EPA standards there isn't much waste going up the chimney other than what is absolutely necessary to maintain a clean chimney and adequate draft so that the secondaries in the stove have enough draft to operate.



I'm not here to defend the MH (that's Pook's job) but the above statement is a bit off. Today's EPA standards prevent much PARTICULATE waste from going up the chimney, and the price you pay is that in SOME cases a lot of HEAT waste goes up the chimney. 

The EPA requires clean burning, which is hot burning. The only way to truly know what is absolutely necessary to maintain a clean chimney and adequate draft is by failing to reach that minimal level. If you succeed in maintaining a clean chimney and adequate draft, how do you know you are not OVER-succeeding and wasting a little bit (or maybe a lot) of heat?


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## BrotherBart (Nov 5, 2010)

branchburner said:
			
		

> If you succeed in maintaining a clean chimney and adequate draft, how do you know you are not OVER-succeeding and wasting a little bit (or maybe a lot) of heat?



That 18 buck flue probe thermometer that shows you that EPA stove exhaust is a lot cooler than a  pre-EPA stove's exhaust.


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## Battenkiller (Nov 5, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> That 18 buck flue probe thermometer that shows you that EPA stove exhaust is a lot cooler than a  pre-EPA stove's exhaust.



I've been talking to a lot a stove shops in the last month or two, still trying to decide if I'll make the jump before the tax credit ends.  Asking lots of questions, and one thing I've been told that has been fairly consistent among different dealers selling different brands of stoves is that with non-cats, the ideal flue pipe surface temps should be around 400º on a single-wall pipe.  

Ironic, since with my pre-EPA stove, I have a most difficult time getting the temps to stabilize much above 300º once the bypass has been closed for a while.  Even if I let the stove run in updraft for as long as an hour and I have flue temps above 600º and stove at 700º, once I close that damper the flue temp steadily drops until it is about 300º, even as the stove heats up more.  What's strange is the fact that on warm, wet days like today, when I'd expect the stove to run even cooler, I get higher flue temps.  Stove ran most of this afternoon at 400º on the pipe and 650-700º on the griddle top.

I wonder what most folks consider to be normal in their non-cat EPA stoves.


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## branchburner (Nov 5, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> branchburner said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Depends on the stove, the flue, the wood and the user. Guarantee you my EPA 2-tsp-creosote flue is hotter than my father's non-EPA (Defiant) 2-gal-creosote flue. 

I have no problem with general statements, but (like Pook) I sometimes enjoy calling them as such. General statements don't cover specific setups, which may involve overdraft, etc. Science DOES cover specific setups. My general statement of the evening is that I think EPA stoves give more heat with less wood simply because they are burning smoke instead of spitting it out, NOT because they are designed to not waste a drop of heat. If secondary air was adjustable, you could squeeze more heat out of them without crudding up your flue, if you knew what you were doing. (You could also crud up your flue, if you didn't know what you were doing.) That's why I like cats - they can run cooler and still be cleaner.

Magic Heat is maybe not so hot 9 out of 10 times, or even 99 out of 100 times, for all I know. Tell you one thing: I ain't spending $180 to do a damn science project to see if I'm the one (but donations gladly accepted).


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## Ducky (Nov 5, 2010)

from what I have read,  as long as you keep flue temps above 250F above the MH,  your fine.  Which I have no problem doing.

I also mentioned that my stove is from 1977  NOT an EPA approved unit.  Which means,  my stove is 33 years old.

I do not have $2800 to drop on a new stove.

I bought a larger stove which came with the MH,  and then resold the larger stove and bought an MH that would fit my Flue....  leaving me with enuff cash left over to buy a MH to fit my pipe plus a little extra, plus the extra MH box.

so at the end of the day it didnt actually cost me anything to do this.

OK.. now.. in MY situation...

I have access to commercial blowers...  and those blowers do NOT put out the heat that the 'in the flue' MH does.

I just walked out of my shop and its current temp is 76F with an outside temp of 38F    and,  in the time since I posted, I had one of my overhead doors open (10x10) for about 10 minutes...

There is no blower option for my stove.  I looked.

In MY situation,  this seems to be working VERY well. I am monitoring my pipe temps closely,  2ft above the MH box,  and I am consistantly above 250F...

Since burning wood, I have never had my shop over 70F without the aid of a kerosene heater.  EVER.

So,  in my opinion,  this works.  But then again,  my stove is 33 years old and doesnt have a blower.


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## pastera (Nov 5, 2010)

There is little difference between removing the heat from the flue with the 'Magic Heat' and removing it from the stove with a blower as long as nowhere in the system the flue gas can condense.

The difference is when you go to clean the system - it will be more difficult to do so with the MH in place. This will cause casual burners to neglect the system and create the resulting perception of the MH. 

When faced with financial necessity, using the MH to increase the overall efficiency of an old stove is simply being frugal (not cheap). 

Now the question is can you use that toasty warm shop to retrofit a secondary burn system to that dragon?

To burn 20 lbs of dry wood requires about 250 lbs of air at 100% excess air (more modern stove). 
Reducing flue gas temperature from 600°F to 300° would recover about 54 BTU/Lb or 14K BTU over the entire burn with about 13K BTU still going up the chimney

At ~6400 BTU/Lb for oak, the 20 Lb burn will give you 128K BTU, or you would recover only 11% of the heat value with a MH in a more modern stove.

A poorly sealed stove would heat a lot more excess air therefore the recovery would be much greater; hence the utility of a MH unit.

Aaron


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## Oldmainer (Nov 5, 2010)

Hi Folks...I have a 6" MH on my AllNighter...located in my uninsulated basement... that I have used for three years now...bought it from Northern Tool. Am pleased with it and don't think it has caused me any aditional problems as far as pipe and chimney cleanup is concerned....which I do on a regular basis throughout the heating season. By the way...out of 119 comments on the NT site about MH 118 are positive...most folks said it increased their heat output and saved them some wood... Oldmainer


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## branchburner (Nov 5, 2010)

Oldmainer said:
			
		

> ...out of 119 comments on the NT site about MH 118 are positive...



I noticed that, too. But do any mention whether it has caused aditional problems as far as pipe and chimney cleanup is concerned?

I'd wager the biggest creosote problems come from burning green wood and letting the smoke dump into a cold, oversized chimney flue. MH might make that marginally worse. I imagine one might get good results without excess creosote from MH if burning very hot fires with dry wood and a strong-drafting flue.


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## Oldmainer (Nov 5, 2010)

Hi branchburner...none of the folks...commenting on the NT site about the MH extractor...made mention of chimney fires...so I guess they are/were smart enough to keep things reasonably clean...pipe and chimney that is. The only groan I have with mine is I have to drop the back...eight screws I think...whenever we have a power outage. Tryin' to hold a flash light and remove the screws in the middle of the night makes one mumble alittle... Oldmainer


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## Ducky (Nov 5, 2010)

Ya know I looked at that myself and thought about using thumb screws instead of the factory screws.  However,  I I get my power from the main line that comes directly off the Niagara Falls power station which feeds NYC and we rarely lose power - knock on wood...


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## Highbeam (Nov 5, 2010)

My non-cat stove has a vertical flue with the minimum allowed length. Pretty typical setup in a pretty moderate climate. Flue temps, real internal ones 18" above the appliance, are in the 800 degree range when a clean fire is burning. Conventional wisdom tells us that we want 250 or so degrees at the outlet of the flue. I don't know anybody that measures outlet flue temps including myself but I have to think that there is extra waste heat leaving my flue well above 250. I don't mind wasting the energy since wood grows on trees but in certain cases I would support using a MH. I would want another flue temp probe above the MH.

I don't like pook. He can go away for all I care but the concept of reclaiming waste heat with a device like this shouldn't be completely ignored just because of his bad manners.


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## begreen (Nov 5, 2010)

Oldmainer said:
			
		

> Hi Folks...I have a 6" MH on my AllNighter...located in my uninsulated basement... that I have used for three years now...bought it from Northern Tool. Am pleased with it and don't think it has caused me any aditional problems as far as pipe and chimney cleanup is concerned....which I do on a regular basis throughout the heating season. By the way...out of 119 comments on the NT site about MH 118 are positive...most folks said it increased their heat output and saved them some wood... Oldmainer



Word - marketing. There are often better and safer ways to save wood. Sometimes a simple key damper will make a significant drop in flue temps, for about $150 less. Don't believe me, check out all the glowing reviews for their EdenPure style heater. Hardly a realistic comment about it. 

For comparable NT reviews, look at those posted for the Vogelzang Box stove. Classic marketing: 

"The Vogerlzang wood stove is the real McCoy! It features superb enginering and genuine craftsmanship with quality construction. Unlike too many look-a-likes and retro-wood stoves, this one will probably never burn out. It is enginered for serious use whether just keeping a large space toasty or cooking on the top - or using the hot water from the optional side mounted heater. This is the wood stove you can pass on to your grandchildren."


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## branchburner (Nov 5, 2010)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> I would want another flue temp probe above the MH.



I like that idea. Put the probe in to see temps w/ and w/o MH. The proof is in the putting.


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## begreen (Nov 5, 2010)

I'd also want a comparison test on the same flue system using just a key damper.


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## webbie (Nov 5, 2010)

Ok, couple of things.....
A vigilant uses an 8" pipe - not a 6". That might have an effect on a number of things.
Are you able to get the stove working well in the downdraft mode? If so, you must have quite a strong chimney.

Any blower on a stove - or in this case a pipe - will help spread heat a little further and faster. Although VC never made a blower for the Vigilant, I can imagine a setup where I might use the rear heat shield with a blower mounted to it near the bottom - this could blow air over a couple of square feet of the bare cast iron back. Even better would be to have the shield bent at the top to deflect heat over the top of the stove and forward.

In a shop, it might be that a ceiling fan also helps spread the air around.

Of course, this is an ancient stove at this point...but a nice one never the less. Part of the legend of VC, though, was the lack of noise and need for electrical outlets etc.....that is, picture the family sitting around the stove in the dead of winter and hearing the ice outside crackle. Of course, in a "man room" or shop, this does not come into play.

I had a good customer once who used a Vigi in his basement to do a pretty decent job on pre-heating his house. However, he bought a Yukon Central furnace to replace it - which did the job 100%.


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## branchburner (Nov 5, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> "The Vogerlzang wood stove is the real McCoy! ... This is the wood stove you can pass on to your grandchildren."



They mean that literally - there will be lots of little pieces left after it falls apart, so each grandkid can have an heirloom.


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## firefighterjake (Nov 5, 2010)

All I know is I bought a stove sized to my needs (well actually I took folks' advice and bought a stove one size larger) . . . and even with an outside chimney I don't need anything other than my stove to keep my house warm . . . no need to buy any add-on devices . . . granted this is with a modern stove and in a home, not a shop.


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## webbie (Nov 5, 2010)

FYI, just for historys sake, the date cast into the rear fireback of a VC stove is not the age of the stove - it is the date when the first model of that stove was designed or produced. All Defiants might have 1976, for example.....


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## Battenkiller (Nov 5, 2010)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> My non-cat stove has a vertical flue with the minimum allowed length. Pretty typical setup in a pretty moderate climate. Flue temps, real internal ones 18" above the appliance, are in the 800 degree range when a clean fire is burning.



Highbeam, with your minimal flue height coupled with any els, caps, internal stove resistance, etc, you just may need every bit of that 800º to get a proper draft.  With a 16' straight chimney, you need about a 400º _average_ flue gas temp to draw .10 inches of draft in your flue.  Stoves vary, but most stoves need a draft of between .08 to .10 inches of water to run efficiently.  Your average flue gas temp will be much lower than the 800º you are measuring at the collar.

As BG and others have said, the draft is the engine of your stove.  I think we end up seeing a lot more insufficient draft here on this forum than we see excessive draft.  I have come to believe that part of the problem is coming from people trying to keep those flue temps at a minimum.  Between obsessing about overfire and whining about lost BTUs, I think a lot of folks are really missing the boat.  You need to spend money to make money, and you need to waste heat to gain heat.  That's just the way it works best, and we need to live with it.

A simple pipe damper can usually control those cases of excessive draft just fine.  It will have the added benefit of holding more heat in the stove and allowing internal temps to rise, resulting in better combustion efficiency.  That increased burn efficiency will likely more than offset any heat loss from a hotter flue.

I'm not against any idea, but if this Magic Heat is such a good idea, I'd think that at least some wood heating experts around the world would be pushing it pretty hard.  Here's what one of the best authorities on the subject of wood heating has to say about the subject:



> RE: [woodheat] *Magic Heat Reclaimer*
> 
> Ruth wrote:
> > I have a Vogelzang Heartwood Wood-Burning Heater.
> ...




John... as in John Gulland.  Since he's the guy who penned the infamous article about the "Florida Bungalow Syndrome", I'm sure he is very familiar with potential overdraft problems in EPA stoves.  And yet, he certainly doesn't recommend the use of this device as a cure for the problem.


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## Battenkiller (Nov 5, 2010)

branchburner said:
			
		

> They mean that literally - there will be lots of little pieces left after it falls apart, so each grandkid can have an heirloom.



Lots of little _white_ pieces.  :lol: 

Craig, for the record, I heat this entire place with only a Vigilant installed in my basement, and very nicely, I might add.  We ain't the highest in the lower 48 as far as degree days go, but we're up there.


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## branchburner (Nov 5, 2010)

appeal to authority = lousy science, duh

Sorry, Pook hasn't appeared in person in this thread yet, but I'm sure he's wathching - I couldn't resist.


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## Battenkiller (Nov 5, 2010)

branchburner said:
			
		

> appeal to authority = lousy science, duh



Well, I already presented the science, I'm starting to get desperate now. ;-P


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## rnusly (Nov 6, 2010)

After reading this forum my question is already answered but I still want the experts to weigh in. I have an Ashley wood circulator that's about twelve years old and performs OK. It's connected to a 25' masonry chimney (installed in the lower level of a bi-level home built in 1978 )with great draft so much so that I have to damp it down and plug some factory ash door holes as it drew too much and wants to overfire even with controls as low as they go! It'll burn overnight packed with a lot of wood damped down on low. I added the MH 2 seasons ago and am happy with the extra heat. Cleanings have not shown additional deposits and are still powdery not sticky. Yesterday we ordered a Napleon Independance non-cat with the secondary burn feature W/O a blower. My question was to keep the MH on it or not. During a medium burn the pipe temp. is about 300-350 post MH so I don't think it was so bad with the Ashley but don't know how the Napoleon will affect it. We wanted to get the tax credit and hopefully cut down on the amount of wood per season. Money is tight so I didn't pop for the $160 additional for the blower. I'm thinking of retrofitting an automotive blower motor to fit. Anyojne have experience doing this?  Thanks!


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## Ducky (Nov 6, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Ok, couple of things.....
> A vigilant uses an 8" pipe - not a 6". That might have an effect on a number of things.
> Are you able to get the stove working well in the downdraft mode? If so, you must have quite a strong chimney.What do you mean by downdraft mode?  I havent really had much problems keeping the fire going and going hot...  Also I know the outlet is 8"  but I am simply using what it came with since money is tight.
> 
> ...



While I agree that modern stoves are MUCH more efficient and dont require the use of MH (I have seen a few in action at friends houses)  MY situation - cant stress that enough...  with such an old stove,  this works out well.  

I also bought a new gasket kit for the stove and put in new gaskets,  and have realised one of my doors is actually slightly warped =(  Maybe Santa Clause will get me a new one for xmas.

Now for the retard question...

my stove pipe,  from the top of the stove to the top cap is  13ft in total length.  Its on a completely flat roof.  behind it,  about 15ft west of the pipe,  is a slight drop,  of about 1.5ft and then the slightly slanted unheated shed roof which is 18ft wide...  the wind,  which is partial broken by the trees behind my garage,  comes up that slanted roof,  to that ledge and then blows over the flat main roof...  

So my question.

would I benefit more from extending my pipe another 3ft? Or dont bother?

Also, I would like to point out that I do have a damper inside my stove pipe.  the stove itself has a damper to cut off the exhaust at the top of the stove to force it to  exhaust thruogh a small opening on the bottom of the stove (helps significantly in long term burns)

But when I first added the stove to my shop,  I installed the pipe damper as well because I wanted more control over the stove itself...  And I am glad I did!


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## begreen (Nov 6, 2010)

Use the stove as designed by engaging the stove bypass damper once it has warmed up. Why add another 3 ft of flue if there are already three devices in the smoke path to reduce draft? (stove bypass, key damper, MH)


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## Ducky (Nov 6, 2010)

the bypass as in the big damper in the stove?  I rarely use that unless I am burning for long periods.  My primary control is with the stove pipe damper.

I have noticed that the MH seemed to have offset my draft  a bit.  in the manual it says to add another section of stove pipe.


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## pen (Nov 6, 2010)

Away from science, lets think business.  If this style of flue heat recapture were so great, why don't the stove manufacturers build one right into the top of their stove?  Or at the very least, build their own equivalent flue collar that is plumbed in as part of the stove's own blower system?  All they should care about is that you buy their stove.  It's not like they are also selling you wood.

So, why don't they offer them?

pen


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## Oldmainer (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi Folks...do all the favorable comments...118... made about the MH at Northern Tool carry any weight? Oldmainer


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## Todd (Nov 6, 2010)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> My non-cat stove has a vertical flue with the minimum allowed length. Pretty typical setup in a pretty moderate climate. Flue temps, real internal ones 18" above the appliance, are in the 800 degree range when a clean fire is burning. Conventional wisdom tells us that we want 250 or so degrees at the outlet of the flue. I don't know anybody that measures outlet flue temps including myself but I have to think that there is extra waste heat leaving my flue well above 250. I don't mind wasting the energy since wood grows on trees but in certain cases I would support using a MH. I would want another flue temp probe above the MH.
> 
> I don't like pook. He can go away for all I care but the concept of reclaiming waste heat with a device like this shouldn't be completely ignored just because of his bad manners.



I think Brother Bart took his IR gun up on the roof one day? Don't remember the numbers. Maybe I'll go up and take some temps, I'd like to know anyways.


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## Ducky (Nov 6, 2010)

[/quote]Is the stove hard to start or does smoke come into the room?
What does the smoke coming out of the chimney look like when the MH is working?[/quote]

I dont have a smoke in the room problem...  and the smoke out of the chimney looks fine (I have seriously thought about installing a camera on my roof so I can monitor smoke output lol)  (i have to walk almost 120ft away from my buiding down my driveway to see the stack)

but it seems like the fire smolders more than burns with MH... which leads me to believe there is a draft problem.  If I crack the door,  it seems to help the situation.


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## Ducky (Nov 6, 2010)

Oldmainer said:
			
		

> Hi Folks...do all the favorable comments...118... made about the MH at Northern Tool carry any weight? Oldmainer



it seriously depends on the age of your stove.  If your stove is ancient like mine,  and inefficient,  like mine,  you will see a vast improvement in your heat output.  However if your stove is fairly new,  I doubt you will see much improvement,  you may even experience a decrease in performance.

I have alot of friends who run newer stoves with no MH...  but their stoves are air tight and alot newer than mine,  and throw a crap load of heat...  however given my stoves age,  and stuff,  the MH is a viable option for ME...  This is something to consider.

A new stove,  for the area I need heated is over $2,000  VS the MH which is $200...


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## fire_man (Nov 6, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> FYI, just for historys sake, the date cast into the rear fireback of a VC stove is not the age of the stove - it is the date when the first model of that stove was designed or produced. All Defiants might have 1976, for example.....



Thanks for clearing that up, Craig. I always wondered why my house built in 1986 had a VC Resolute that had  1979 cast into it and it was a "new install".


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## begreen (Nov 6, 2010)

Ducky said:
			
		

> Oldmainer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



oldmainer, already asked and answered - marketing hype. NT is not above filtering comments. Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true. There are 118  responses because.... it sells stoves. Funny how there are so few comments on Amazon which has a link to the same product. The unit can work as a bandaid in some circumstances, but there are often better, safer ways to deal with inefficiency. As a trade off for not fixing the source of the problem you get a cheap, noisy box that is made of  steels and rusts out easily, can clog frequently, greatly adds to the pipe cleaning chores and will probably raise serious questions with the home insurer. If it is only to control draft, try a key damper first. If it is to extract more heat, a modern stove can do this more economically. 

Ducky, I have to dispute the math here. There are many big stoves for sale for under $1000, and that is  before the 30% tax credit. For example, the Englander 30NC, Drolet Myriad can be found for less than a $1000, especially off-season. They burn magnitudes cleaner than the old stove, have option for built-in blower, and have much closer installation clearances. They also burn much less wood to produce the same heat. Alternatively, you can get a Hot Blast furnace for $1200 which would have that space heated up to 70F in no time. Or a Daka for $999.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200307391_200307391 ($899 and that includes the blower. $630 after tax credit.)
http://www.overstockstoves.com/50nowomo2sqf.html


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## begreen (Nov 6, 2010)

If the fire is smoldering before the wood is fully charred, then there could be a creosote problem brewing. If this is after the wood is completely charred and coaled, then it might not be.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 6, 2010)

If somebody wants to use a Magic Heat then they can use a Magic Heat. People here and on woodheat.org perceive that they could cause problems. Farm Bureau Insurance won't insure your house if you use one according to a posting on another website. But that doesn't mean lots of people don't use them and make them work. Just like it doesn't mean that a lot of people tried them and they are now laying out back somewhere.


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## begreen (Nov 6, 2010)

> What do you mean by ” the wood is fully charred”?


Battenkiller can give you a more scientific and detailed description of the process of wood burning, but I will give it a go. 

As the wood is heated to ignition it gives off a lot of gases, many of which are volatile and catch fire. You see some of the unburnt gases as smoke. If these unburnt gases condense on a cooler surface, you get creosote. The wood will continue to outgas until all of these volatile compounds have outgassed. At this point the remaining product is charcoal which is pure carbon. Charcoal burns well, but much more cleanly. I think the only gas it emits is C02 and its fumes do not contribute toward creosote if they condense.


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## Battenkiller (Nov 6, 2010)

Oldmainer said:
			
		

> Hi Folks...do all the favorable comments...118... made about the MH at Northern Tool carry any weight? Oldmainer



I'm sure we could easily find 118 favorable comments from the folks that are grabbing Vogelzang boxwood stoves off pallets by the checkout line at Harbor Freight.  So what?


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## branchburner (Nov 6, 2010)

There is only ONE WAY to know for sure if MH will work in a certain setup with no ill effects, and that's to try it. It's just another variable in the system (as if there weren't enough already), but one that can be observed and controlled. Like BG, I would rather pay five bucks for a damper.

Here's another way to consider it: the difference between burning with MH on a straight shot of interior pipe and burning with an uninsulated, oversized, exterior tile flue is that MH lets you keep the heat instead of donating it to the great outdoors. And the guy with the clay tile probably has more creosote, to boot.

Many people are already burning with a much more inefficient heat exchanger than MH. It's called MN (Mother Nature).


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## Battenkiller (Nov 6, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> As the wood is heated to ignition it gives off a lot of gases, many of which are volatile and catch fire. You see some of the unburnt gases as smoke. If these unburnt gases condense on a cooler surface, you get creosote. The wood will continue to outgas until all of these volatile compounds have outgassed. At this point the remaining product is charcoal which is pure carbon. Charcoal burns well, but much more cleanly. I think the only gas it emits is C02 and its fumes do not contribute toward creosote if they condense.



Sounds good to me, except charcoal also gives off a lot of CO as well as CO2.  CO2 is basically inert, but CO is a fuel gas that contains 2/3 the heat per pound that wood has.  It's invisible, can't condense on the flue walls, but still carries away large amounts of potential heat energy on the breeze once it leaves the firebox and goes out the stack.  A slow draft created by a lazy flue will allow more CO to escape unburned, so there is some more inefficiency to consider.

Ducky, I use the same stove you have, and it heats my entire house from a basement install.  I have electric baseboard heat, and every damn one of them are turned down to 50º.  Last January's electric bill was only $68... almost all of it DHW, lights and refrigerator.  House is a stable 70-72º throughout.  I can tell you for a fact that you'll get a lot more heat out of that Vigi by going to the 8" pipe it's designed for, adding 5-6' of chimney, and shutting that internal damper once the stove has a nice coal bed and is burning hot (500-650ºF).  You won't get any of the advantages of that great VC design by burning it the way you are, but if you want to continue nobody here really cares or holds it against you.  You just won't see many MH endorsements coming from the majority of us.


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## branchburner (Nov 6, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Oldmainer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can also find 118 people who say you shouldn't burn pine, and those 118 will show up in your search long before you find threads on this site that prove otherwise. The trouble with internet searches is that you often have to wade through many wrong answers before you find the correct ones. Google is the "I-told-you-so" enabler.

It really helps in searching for answers online if you *already know* the correct answer. Better to search for arguments than for answers.


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## Oldmainer (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi Folks...I wonder if NT paid those 118 folks to comment in favor of the MH?...  I burn alot of  eastern white pine too...in fact my Allnighter is hummin' away right now keepin' the chill out of the house...temp outside is 46 degrees with a slight breeze...nice. Anyway I think there is enough BS here about the MH that it would fertilize my garden...I'll just set the monitor out next to my compost pile...be better then the seaweed I gather up to enrich the pile some... Oldmainer


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## branchburner (Nov 6, 2010)

Oldmainer said:
			
		

> I burn alot of  eastern white pine too...



Never occurred to me before, but burning seasoned pine might be among those times MH makes sense. My experience with dry pine is that it often burns so hot and fast that flue temps can shoot right up too far, too fast. 

I think pine got it's bad rap because some people would burn green oak and fill the flue with creosote. Then some dry pine would burn hot and fast, touch off the chimney, and get blamed for "causing" the fire. The irony is that the "terrible" pine that they think is the origin of creosote was probably the only dry, non-creosote-producing wood they ever burned!


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## Oldmainer (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi branchburner...if the pine burns alittle mite fast ya need to squeeze off the air a tad. I have two air damper controls in the door of my Allnighter that do a good job of air control. Most of my wood...both hard and soft seasons for about six months...then it is burned. I cut in the late winter and early spring then stack it for the coming heating season. I have been burning wood for nearly 50 years and havn't set my chimney on fire yet. I make sure the fire gets enough air even when I set it up for an all night burn. Have plenty of coals for a restart in the early am. Burning wood is more of an art then a science...and will do as it should if you take the time to play it right. Some are too lazy or cheap to clean their chimney on a regular basis...but if done it saves on turning their home into a pile of charcoal... I burn even the tree branches...down to about 1 inch in size. The rest of the brush I chip with my chipper at some point during the year...and use the chips for mulch. I have my own 40 acre wood lot. And yes I know...a modern stove will burn cleaner and use alittle less wood...but ya know...unless I am bothering a neigbor...which I'm not cos I live in the country...I plan to do it my way till I buy the farm. Oldmainer


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## WES999 (Nov 6, 2010)

My Magic heat Review.  

When I moved in my house there was a Fisher Grandma Bear in the basement. Sitting behind it was a stove pipe heat reclaimer ( not a MH but essentially the same thing.) One day I figured I would install it and see how it worked. Well with the MH the stove would not draft well at all. I could barely get a fire going, so off it came. It sat around for a while until I got tired of looking at it and threw it in the trash.

This stove has a  somewhat marginal draft to begin with, basement location, outside chimney, rear exit, 2 90*, the MH was just not going to work.

On a another topic my oil furnace has a heat reclaimer ( it was there when I moved in) and it works quite well. It's an older, not so efficient model and the reclaimer is able to reclaim some of the heat that would otherwise go up the chimney.

As others have said, probably best to avoid using one on a EPA stove, I certainly wouldn't put one on my EPA Regency stove. May work OK an older stove that has very good draft.


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## oldspark (Nov 6, 2010)

Google search for magic heat came up with a pot vaporizer, I think I will try one of those and give a review on it. :cheese:


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## BrotherBart (Nov 6, 2010)

Oldmainer said:
			
		

> Hi branchburner...if the pine burns alittle mite fast ya need to squeeze off the air a tad. I have two air damper controls in the door of my Allnighter that do a good job of air control. Most of my wood...both hard and soft seasons for about six months...then it is burned. I cut in the late winter and early spring then stack it for the coming heating season. I have been burning wood for nearly 50 years and havn't set my chimney on fire yet. I make sure the fire gets enough air even when I set it up for an all night burn. Have plenty of coals for a restart in the early am. Burning wood is more of an art then a science...and will do as it should if you take the time to play it right. Some are too lazy or cheap to clean their chimney on a regular basis...but if done it saves on turning their home into a pile of charcoal... I burn even the tree branches...down to about 1 inch in size. The rest of the brush I chip with my chipper at some point during the year...and use the chips for mulch. I have my own 40 acre wood lot. And yes I know...a modern stove will burn cleaner and use alittle less wood...but ya know...unless I am bothering a neigbor...which I'm not cos I live in the country...I plan to do it my way till I buy the farm. Oldmainer



Sounds like me five years ago when I showed up here. Been doing it for 30 years and didn't see any need to dry the wood more than spring to fall and the old stoves were heating just fine. Then the big one popped a weld that couldn't be reached with a welder. Got the first new one and like they say about the first time you have sex, wanted to kill myself for what I had been missing. Replaced the other one real fast.

If ya like the way you are doing it, keep on keeping on. Just don't feel too smug about it. I am starting to like power windows in the car too.


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## branchburner (Nov 6, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> Google search for magic heat came up with a pot vaporizer, I think I will try one of those and give a review on it. :cheese:



You think flue temps are confusing now, just wait 'til you're in the middle of testing out pot vaporizers.


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## Ducky (Nov 28, 2010)

Ok so the cold weather has finally hit.  and the last few days its been below freezing and SUPER windy....

First of...  My uninsulated house,  is cold lol

My shop on the other hand,  has ran for a total of 12hrs or so over 3 days with an outside temp of 40 or below... hitting 20's at night...  inside the shop,  60F  =D

Ok couple things...  BattenKiller,  I took some of your advice about closing the primary damper then proping the lid up about an inch...  this seems to work great.  Though I wont leave the stove unattended that way...

Its wierd, the stove gets alot hotter and the pipe drops in temp 

I thought the less stove pipe you have the better? Considering I have no obstructions with in hundreds of feet of my pipe (except for a coupe tres that have no leaves and their canopies are 20ft above the roof line) why are some of you suggesting I add MORE pipe and why does the manual state such as well?

Right now I have 3ft above the roof...  If I bought another 3ft section,  would that make a difference?

I realize that my cheater box IS cheating...  but so far I have used about a FC of wood so far this season.  Last year I was up to 3-4 face cords by this time... But I also replaced all the gaskets of my stove,  corrected a warper door by adding gasket to the stove and the door to fill the gap...  which changed the characteristics of my stove LOL

So.  for ME  I can say I am happy with my purchase of the MH.


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## EatenByLimestone (Nov 28, 2010)

Adding 3 feet could make a difference.  How many feet do you have now?  

Matt


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## Battenkiller (Nov 28, 2010)

Ducky said:
			
		

> BattenKiller,  I took some of your advice about closing the primary damper *then proping the lid up about an inch*...  this seems to work great.



I recommended propping the lid up?  You mean the griddle top?  I musta been hitting the cheap scotch, because I've never, ever done that.  But yeah, that'll cause the flue temps to drop... along with your draft.


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## gibson (Nov 28, 2010)

As many have said before, stove setup and draft mean everything.  Case in point, my father-in-law and I are doing the first break-in burn in his new Jotul Oslo today.  Out in the driveway, typical New England, windy cold November day.  3' of stove pipe as our chimney.  We get the stove up to 200 degrees, wind hits the "chimney" the right way, fire goes out, total smokeshow.  Probably just a microcosm of things that can happen when the application doesn't work.  He has a 35 yr old "Better-n-Benz" firebox burning right now.  I am hopeful this Oslo is going to "rock his world", along with saving him some wood along the way.  When we get the stove in the hearth, it will have a 20' run of 6"  circular vermiculite chimney to draw from, just like a liner.


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