# Cast Iron Radiator Project



## Eric Johnson

I love old cast iron radiators. Can you think of another product that:

1.) Will last forever with a modicum of care;
2.) Is the best product of its kind;
3.) Is a work of art

Here's one that I refinished on Sunday and hauled into the greenhouse. I was delighted, upon cleaning and painting, to see the lion head cast into the design on the columns. This is male-oriented radiant heat.

You're not supposed to mix ci rads and copper finned baseboard on the same zone, but when the 24 feet of finned tube couldn't cut it, I reverted to the tried-and-true approach. When I bought the place, the greenhouse was heated with three small, ci rads which I appropriated for other uses. I thought the new baseboards would suffice. Eventually I'll probably paint the baseboards black, too; they're pretty worthless as heaters, but maybe they'll absorb some solar radiation in the summer that I can pump back into my system.


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## Eric Johnson

I painted it in the garage and wheeled it on a dolly down a step and into the greenhouse. Still needs to be connected, obviously.


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## Eric Johnson

Moving the iron.


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## senorFrog

Nice! I sent some of mine out to be sandblasted and powder coated.  They came out real nice.

Just wanted to pass these links along in case you were interested.  I have an addition w/new baseboards which are real ugly.  I might get these at some point to dress it up a bit...

http://www.go-overboard.com/
http://www.radiantwraps.com/


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## Nofossil

So let me expose the depth and breadth of my ignorance here....

I've always assumed that most radiators are for steam heat - that steam would rise until it touched cooler metal - the radiator - then condense and flow back down the same pipe.

I also assumed that they're made up of two castings - an end section and a center section. Any radiator is made up of two ends and some number of center sections.

I don't understand how the style you have would work for hot water. Is there a blocking plate somewhere in the bottom manifold that forces water to travel up to the top in order to get from one end to the other, or would water just tend to pass through the bottom and heat the rest only via conduction and/or convection?

Is there a bleed valve port near the top to get air out of them?

I'm hoping to shamelessly take advantage of your experience with these.


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## Eric Johnson

Cast iron radiators work like you wouldn't believe with hot water. They work with steam, too, but it's tougher on the radiator because steam systems are open and thus they get a lot of rust, pet hair and other crap accumulating inside. Hot water radiators will last forever.

A hot water radiator consists of multiple sections held together, top and bottom, with pressure nipples. The sections are pressed together and then retained with steel rods running the length of the rad. This way, you can make a radiator as big or as small as you want. All you need are end sections and the appropriate number of middle pieces. You can even repair a damaged radiator by taking out the bad section and squeezing the remaining ones back together. Attached is a pic of what the sections look like when taken apart.

The physics is simple. You pipe hot water into the bottom of the rad and it rises up into the columns. The cooler water falls down and flows out the other side. When a ci rad is warmed up (which doesn't take very long at all with 160- or 180-degree water), the heat output is uniform across the length of the unit. On startup, you can feel the columns warm up in series, until the whole thing is hot. All hot water radiators have a top passage way (pipe) and an air vent at the top. Steam rads don't need a top tube, although most do have them, so that they can be used interchangeably in water systems. Steam rads have vents on the side, about halfway up one of the end columns. You need to vent hot water radiators when you fill them, and occasionally as needed, since rads in some locations on any system will tend to accumulate air at the tops, causing them not to work as well (no flow across the top). And the cast iron and water retains and radiates heat long after the pump has stopped. It's a generally accepted fact that there is no better radiant method, with the possible exception of in-floor, than hot water radiators. It's like having a bunch of little woodstoves around your house that you can warm your hands and butt on.

I actually have an old steam radiator with no top pipe heating our kitchen. Attached is a pic of it. If you can figure out how I filled it, I'll bring a sixpack of Old Smuttynose India Pale Ale when I pop in for a visit this winter or next spring.


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## Nofossil

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> I actually have an old steam radiator with no top pipe heating our kitchen. Attached is a pic of it. If you can figure out how I filled it, I'll bring a sixpack of Old Smuttynose India Pale Ale when I pop in for a visit this winter or next spring.



Great explanation - thanks. When you say 'filled', I assume that you mean that you got all the air out of it so that it's filled with water. I'll have to accept the challenge - old Smuttynose is too good to pass up.

How about this: install a valve on the both sides. Close the valves and connect a vacuum pump to one side, plumb to boiler on the other. Open the valve on the vacuum pump side. Pump it down to 99% vacuum. Close valve on vacuum pump side, gently open valve on boiler side. Radiator will fill to 99% with water. Disconnect vacuum pump, plumb to boiler return. Do I get Pale Ale?

Even if that wasn't how you did it, how do you keep air bubbles from accumulating in the radiator?


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## Eric Johnson

You and your high-tech approach to everything, nofossil.

I'll bring the beer because anyone who knows and appreciates Old Smuttynose has gotta be alright in my book.

But I took a decidedly low-tech approach involving muscle, which I seem to have in greater abundance than brainpower on occasion. Case in point: that shutoff valve doesn't have to be on its side like that, but I didn't realize that the bleeder works just as well in the vertical position (!). 

Anyway, first thing you do on each side is pipe in a union and a self-bleeding shut-off valve, as shown in the photograph. You disconnect the unions, turn the radiator upside down and fill it by hand. Then you close the valves, turn the rad back over and reconnect the unions. Then you pressure it up and open the bleeders on the valves until they squirt water. Then you open the valves and you're in business.

It doesn't accumulate tramp air because there's a regular hot water radiator with a vent on it upstream of this one. Only two rads on the kitchen zone, so I piped them in series. The first radiator catches any air that might be traveling up through the piping. Actually, there isn't much of that. I installed this radiator 3 years ago, and it works just like it did at first. And whenever I've bled the other radiator, there's been little to no air in it. Both of these radiators are on the first floor. With all the water above them, first-floor radiators don't get much air buildup. Upstairs, for obvious reasons, it's a whole nother deal.


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## Nofossil

Old smuttynose in my future - one more thing to live for!

I have lots of air problems - whole nother thread, maybe. More than your clever low-tech/high-muscle approach to filling, I'm impressed that you got that union to not leak. I've had absolutely terrible luck with that style.

I'm thinking a whole new round of thinking on the CI radiator theme. Gotta find me some and play. Any idea how many BTU/section or BTU/ft those things put out when used with hot water? I'm cursed by lack of foresight in sizing HW baseboards. I only have 52' for the whole 3500 sq ft house.


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## Eric Johnson

I'll have to check again. There's a way to figure it out, but I've forgotten what it is. The water temp has a lot to do with it, of course.

As I recall, a big radiator will produce about 20,000 btu/hr. with 140-degree water. The one in my kitchen shown above is probably half that.

I knew what the formula was because I was trying to figure out how many ci rads I would need to transfer 200K btu into my tank, when I was thinking about using them as in-tank heat exchangers. What I didn't realize was that a cast iron rad immersed in water will transfer A LOT MORE HEAT than the same rad surrounded by air. Using to water-to-air calculation, you'd need more rads than tank.

I would really recommend cast iron, nofossil. You can even put TRV regulators on them and balance the heat output to your needs. Or, if you're like me, you just pump hot water through them when the room stat calls for heat.

I think this photo from our old house tells you all you need to know about cast iron radiators. Sold the house, but we still have the cat. That's a gravity-feed wood-fired hot water system, by the way. No pumps. Great for those multi-day Adirondack power outages in the dead of winter.

EDIT: Here's an online calculator. Let me know how to use it when you get it figured out. It's so complicated that it almost seems like some foreign language.

http://www.radiators.nl/techspecsclassic.php


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## Jags

You hot water guys are sure an interesting bunch, I'll tell ya that.


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## Nofossil

Jags said:
			
		

> You hot water guys are sure an interesting bunch, I'll tell ya that.



I sometimes justify (and evaluate) what I'm doing by considering what is technically known as the 'WAF', or 'Wife Approval Factor'. A boiler with hot water storage has a potentially high WAF for the following reasons:

1) No muss, no fuss, no firewood debris in the living space.
2) Hot water any time.
3) Want heat? Just turn up the thermostat.

Any time I can use technology behind the scenes to gain a high WAF is all good as far as I'm concerned.

Eric's cast iron radiators would provide a very nice butt/glove/boot warmer for even higher WAF. Now you know my motivations.


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## Eric Johnson

There was no rust in this one, enord. Just a fine, black film that smells like fish oil. They say black film (powder when it dries) is the sign of a healthy hydronic system.

The steam rad that I installed in the kitchen did have some rust and a bunch of crap in the trap at the bottom. I cleaned out what I could by hand and flushed the radiator out pretty good with a hose. I haven't lost a pump since doing that install 3 years ago, so I'm guessing we're still good.

I've found that you can get away with a lot of obsessing on your heating system (which is what I do) if your wife can do what nofossil's likes to do, which is have heat when she turns on the stat and unlimited, free DHW. And when the gas bill comes, it's payday from a domestic harmony point of view. Now if I had a car or a boat or another woman for a hobby, then the domestic dynamic starts to shift, I suspect. The only other thing I obsess on, other than gardening, is xc skiing. True, I have to leave the house to do that, but I'm generally ten miles back on some trail in the woods where it's pretty hard to get into trouble. Or let me put it this way: the trouble you can get into back there will be offset by a nice life insurance settlement.


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## Nofossil

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> EDIT: Here's an online calculator. Let me know how to use it when you get it figured out. It's so complicated that it almost seems like some foreign language.
> 
> http://www.radiators.nl/techspecsclassic.php



Cute. Fortunately, there are many tools on the web for doing translations. I'm sure that the translation below will make the use of the tool abundantly clear:



		Code:
	

Technical specifications

Approximately to stipulate how many sections (lamellen) be able heat a space you necessary have to can the calculator use.
By cubic meter space you must embarrass approximately 60 up to 70 Watt.
And the desired model fills in the number of sections, and bekijk how much Watt is generated at by you wished room temperature.
The water temperature in the radiators is 90/70°
Other data such as length, heating are oppervlak, water contents and find weight of the sections on the calculator.


Much better, yes?

My 1966 reprint of the 1933 'Handbook of Applied Mathematics' has a section on cast iron radiator calculations. For a modest consideration (IPA), I'll pass along the contents. Teaser: 150 BTU/hr/sq ft. They've got tables that give you an estimate of squate feet based on the design and dimensions.


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## Mmaul

I have an old Sear home that uses this type of heat I have read about it but I'm glad to see that there are people here to answer any questions that might come up in the future it is one of the best heats in my experience. Is anyone else's seem not very efficient.


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## Eric Johnson

Well, tell us what you've got, MM. Is it an oil or gas boiler or wood?

As to efficiency, there may be ways to make your system more efficient than it is now, depending on how it's set up. You can overall boiler efficiencies of 90% and higher with a modern oil or gas boiler. The older ones like I have (a 1958 Weil-McLain gas boiler) are about 80% efficient, which isn't bad considering the technology of the day. My new wood gasifier claims 91% efficiency, but I bet that's a best-case scenario under optimum conditions.

Beyond the thing heating the water, you can have all sorts of inefficiencies in your house construction and insulation, and the way your heating system is designed, constructed and piped.

I can't comment on hydronic heat vs. some of the alternatives, such as electric or forced air, from an efficiency point of view, because I don't know. I do know that hot water heat is some of the most comfortable, controllable heat you can have, regardless of efficiency.


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## hkobus

nofossil said:
			
		

> Eric Johnson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: Here's an online calculator. Let me know how to use it when you get it figured out. It's so complicated that it almost seems like some foreign language.
> 
> http://www.radiators.nl/techspecsclassic.php
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cute. Fortunately, there are many tools on the web for doing translations. I'm sure that the translation below will make the use of the tool abundantly clear:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Technical specifications
> 
> Approximately to stipulate how many sections (lamellen) be able heat a space you necessary have to can the calculator use.
> By cubic meter space you must embarrass approximately 60 up to 70 Watt.
> And the desired model fills in the number of sections, and look up (bekijk) how much Watt is generated at the by you required (wished) room temperature.
> The water temperature in the radiators is 90/70°
> Other data such as length, heating are surface (oppervlak), water contents and find weight of the sections on the calculator.
> 
> 
> Much better, yes?
> 
> My 1966 reprint of the 1933 'Handbook of Applied Mathematics' has a section on cast iron radiator calculations. For a modest consideration (IPA), I'll pass along the contents. Teaser: 150 BTU/hr/sq ft. They've got tables that give you an estimate of squate feet based on the design and dimensions.
Click to expand...


That's funny, I never tied the translate tools. It just seemed to look right to me as it was, just fixed a few odd left overs..   
I love those old cast relics, in our house it does come with a high WAF  ;-)
I'm still looking for some to put in some upstairs rooms, no luck yet.


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## Eric Johnson

Here's the big bastid that heats my office at home. Needs a coat of paint. Note that this one is so big that it has a set of feet in the center for support. I think when they put hydronic heating systems in these old houses (I'm sure this was an early 20th Century retrofit to coal central heat), they did a rough heat loss calc for each room and then ordered the appropriate sized radiators for each room. Custom made, in a sense.

Of course, those calcs all go out the window as the house gets some insulation, etc. As a result, most houses with the original radiators are way over-engineered, at least from a heating viewpoint. You can compensate for that quite nicely with modern technology like automatic mixing valves, zone valves, pumps and other thermostatic and hydronic controls. It gets a bit more challenging when trying to run the system on wood, but it's worth the effort, IMO.


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## Mmaul

I have a weil maclane as well I dont know about the year but it is newer model. When I get home tonight I will look and maybe even snap a few pic to show the boiler it is how ever gas, but I have a wood insert to suppliment the heat. I will take a few pics of the radiators they still say Sears Chicago on them. I do have a question, I didnt think they were supposed to be painted, mine have quite a few coats of paint I'm sure.


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## Eric Johnson

I've always painted mine with plain old Rustoleum. Nothing fancy. And the paint lasts a good long time, even when you're pumping very hot (200-degree) water through them. The best approach is to do what SenorFrog did, which is to take them out, sandblast them and then put a power coating on. That must be beautiful and very durable. But plain spraypaint (any color you like) does a fine job, IMO, and you don't have to move anything. One tip: best done in warm weather, because you get a pretty good cloud of paint in the room. You have to cover everything and have some decent ventilation. I should probably learn how to put an electrical charge on the radiator to get the paint attracted to the metal, like the pros do.


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## Mmaul

That's good to know a few of my radiators are starting to crack and peel off and with two small children in a old house I'm worried about lead.


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## senorFrog

It was surpringly inexpensive to have them sandblasted & powdercoated, like $100 per radiator.


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## Eric Johnson

Lead is a good thing to be concerned about. I'd wait until the kids aren't around and then scrape all the loose paint off. Then clean the rads and paint them. If you're careful and do a good job, they will look fantastic.

The hardest part is probably the cleaning. It's important to get all of the dust out from between the columns. If you don't, it will catch the paint and look pretty tacky. A windshield snow brush (narrow) is a good tool to use. The narrow attachment that comes with some vacuum cleaners is also useful. A round brush on a wire would work pretty well, too. You can hang a sheet behind the radiator to cover up the wall and the baseboard. If it's possible to slightly lift the radiators at all (it usually is), slide pieces of paper under the feet to protect the floor. If you can't do that, masking tape on paper works pretty well.

It's not important to paint the back of the rad, because nobody will ever see it, but I always try to do a complete job whenever possible. If you're really ambitious, you can sand down the area around the chips for a smoother looking job. One thing I've always considered, but never actually tried, would be to go after the chipped areas with some Zip Strip soaked in medium steel wool. That should smooth them out with less effort and no lead-laden paint dust.

You can also paint the piping and valves. Remove the wooden handles if you can and either refinish or paint them black (my preference). If you use Rustoleum spray paint, you can buy a small can of the same color brush-paint for touchup and for painting the pipes and valves. Some of the fittings on old rads are nickle-plated brass. They look pretty snazzy if you remove the old paint and polish them up. Same thing with the bleeders. Might as well bleed the radiators while you're at it. That time of the year.

It takes about two standard cans of paint to put a good coat on a big radiator. Might as well put on more than one while you're at it. Watch for drips! If you have a lot of bare metal, consider using some primer. It may not be necessary with modern paint, but I figure it's worth the extra effort.

If you do it and you're happy with the results, post some pics.


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## Eric Johnson

senorFrog said:
			
		

> It was surpringly inexpensive to have them sandblasted & powdercoated, like $100 per radiator.



I'm assuming that's if you take them out and haul them to the place, right?

That's a heck of a deal. But I'm reserving judgement until I see the results. Got any pics to post, sF?


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## Mmaul

I really need to post some pic tomorrow my radiator's look a bit different then the ones posted. They arent as open as these I will try to find pic's on the web. They look to like they are going to be really hard to clean inbetween the fins.


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## Mmaul

I just found a site I guess they are called recessed radiators. http://www.antiqueplumbingandradiators.com/graysurad.html
Here is a site that has a picture of my house note the Chimney http://www.searsarchives.com/homes/1927-1932.htm, its the Hillsboro.


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## senorFrog

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> senorFrog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was surpringly inexpensive to have them sandblasted & powdercoated, like $100 per radiator.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm assuming that's if you take them out and haul them to the place, right?
> 
> That's a heck of a deal. But I'm reserving judgement until I see the results. Got any pics to post, sF?
Click to expand...


Yeh.  I pulled em and hauled em over.  Sorry no pics.  I'd use my cell's camera, but it wouldn't have the detail you'd be looking for.  These ones are much shorter than yours and don't have the fancy design work.  My heating system is forced hot water.  

They came out nice though.  They guy has 13 foot whatever (furnace?) for powdercoating.  I have an old antique cast iron street lamp, like 14 feet if you count the latern, I might pull and bring over.


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## Mwatatu

Hi All,

New to site. Have cast iron radiator heat. It is the best. Looking to add two more to a converted attic. The two radiators where steam. Prior owner removed valves and now I need to find "nipples" or "plugs for the holes. I am wondering if anyone knows where I could get a hold of 2? I would love to find ones that have the turn key so the air can be released when loosened. I do not know the specs. Yeah, I know, shot in the dark. Any help out there?


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## Eric Johnson

It's a standard thread, maybe 1/4-inch. If you go to Home Depot or Lowe's, look in the compressed air section, as I think it's a commonly used thread with that. You can get bleeders in that size (it's the standard size for bleeders), but you wouldn't want those halfway up the radiator.


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## tug hill rook

I AM BUYING A NEW WOOD BOILER AND I AM GOING TO RUN A EXTRA ZONE, TO HEAT MY CELLAR. (ALSO FINISH DRYING MY FIRE WOOD)  CONSIDERING LOOKS DON'T MATTER, AND THE WALLS AND FLOOR ARE CONCRETE , WHAT COULD I USE BESIDES BASEBOARD. CAN YOU BUY ANY KIND OF INEXPENSIVE UNIT FOR THE JOB? THANKS,  (VERY GLAD I FOUND THIS SITE) TUG HILL ROOK


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## sparke

Damn you Eric, now I want some radiators


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## Ncountry

[quote author="Eric Johnson" date="1193691480"]You and your high-tech approach to everything, nofossil.

I'll bring the beer because anyone who knows and appreciates Old Smuttynose has gotta be alright in my book.

But I took a decidedly low-tech approach involving muscle, which I seem to have in greater abundance than brainpower on occasion. Case in point: that shutoff valve doesn't have to be on its side like that, but I didn't realize that the bleeder works just as well in the vertical position (!). 

Anyway, first thing you do on each side is pipe in a union and a self-bleeding shut-off valve, as shown in the photograph. You disconnect the unions, turn the radiator upside down and fill it by hand. Then you close the valves, turn the rad back over and reconnect the unions. Then you pressure it up and open the bleeders on the valves until they squirt water. Then you open the valves and you're in business.]

Thats funny eric, and I thought I was alone in solving problems this way. Question is did you try to bleed it before or after initial charging of the system. "I can't remember" but it seems like I may have waited till after


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## Eric Johnson

It's kind of a funny story that typifies my el cheapo approach to things.

I found a guy over in Albany on some online classified listing that had two of these radiators for sale. Since the one was exactly the right size (those short radiators are getting harder to find), I drove out there and picked it up for around $40. I was really pleased with my score, got the radiator home, unloaded it into the garage, then noticed that it didn't have a top pipe. I'm wracking my brains trying to figure out how I'm going to bleed it. I finally gave up, figuring I could get my money back by selling it to a local place that sells old rads. I think they wanted to give me $10. That really ticked me off, since they get $100 for any one you want to buy. So I spend a couple of days trying to figure out how I could use it anyway.

On the bleeding--I used shut-off valves with built-in bleeders. So after you fill the radiator, shut the valves, turn it back over and connect it to the system, you pressure the piping back up and then open the bleeders until they squirt water. Then you open the valves and you're in business. As far as air accumulating over time, it hasn't been a problem, mainly because that zone has two ci rads piped in series, and the one ahead of the steam rad is a conventional hot water rad with bleeders. Any air migrating up from the boiler gets caught there first, and can be bled out manually.

Tug Hill: Welcome to the Boiler Room. No need for all caps around here. I think a cast iron radiator would be perfect for a basement application. Perfect place to dry your boots.


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## Ncountry

Yeah, thats how I ended up bleeding mine too. By the way are you involved w/Woodsmans day in Boonville and do you know if there are going to be any gasifiers there?


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## Eric Johnson

Other than buying a booth there, I'm not involved. But there probably will be some gasifiers there. Last year at our show in Maine there were none, but we'll have at least four at the show this May in Vermont. So I think it's catching on, especially in Vermont and Maine, where new regs will impact the OWB business beginning on March 31. Considering the rising cost of fuel and the new state restrictions, it's an interesting convergence that you'd think would help the guys selling gasificiation boilers.


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## bullreed

After disassembly and cleaning, what do you use to seal the sections back together?


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## Eric Johnson

I've never had to do that. They're held together with steel push nipples, but you don't want to take them apart unless you need to take out a damaged section or make the radiator smaller. Any good used radiator should hold pressure or there's not much point in fooling around with it. Radiators used in properly maintained hot water systems shouldn't have any corrosion or other crap in them. They should be good to go after a good pressure test and flushing. I use a garden hose to pressure-test them. Old steam rads tend to have rust and other junk built up in the traps, which are located at the bottom inlets and outlets. Try to scoop out what you can and flush them out really good. I think a pressure washer would do a good job. Around here they go for around $100 each, but you can sometimes get them free for the hauling.


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## 88rxn/a

good read eric!
i just picked up 7 cast iron radiators for $175  ($25 a piece). i think thats a good deal?
if interested i can take pics, they are always fun!
i still never figured out how to find the BTU's these put out?
im going to run 6 in the cellar and 1 in the kitchen.


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## Eric Johnson

You can look it up, but I've forgotten where exactly. You might go over to heatinghelp.com and ask. I'm sure one of those heating pros can point you in the right direction.


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## kenny chaos

Hi Eric-
I miss the old rads we had in the last place.  It's like you said, they're like having a little woodstove in every room.
Now we're in an older place.  It's a gorgeous old medina sandstone with mostly original doors, windows, etc..
I'm trying to tighten it up the best I can while maintaining it's originality.
The baseboard just can't keep up and I've often thought about replacing them with radiators.
Crazy idea?
Thanks-


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## Eric Johnson

I think that's a great idea. If you already have 3/4" baseboard plumbed in, it's no trick to tear out the baseboard and put in cast iron radiators. We did that in our kitchen, and now instead of being kind of a place nobody wants to sit, it's the most popular room in the house. As it should be. I wouldn't hesitate to do it. And I think an old place deserves radiators. Baseboard is pretty hideous by comparison, when you get right down to it.


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## magnumhntr

Strange coincidence this post was resurrected. A friend of mine and I were talking about installing some radiators in our houses/shops instead of baseboard. He is originally from England and that is all they use over there. He talked to a plumber in England last week and is trying to get it set up to have some radiators shipped over. Is there a place in the US we can pick up some radiators instead of having them shipped over? 

Thanks!

Chris


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## danmitchell9

I'm with you all the way on the cast radiators.  We just took finished the swap-over in our old house from fintube to cast when we got the new wood boiler this fall.  They just LOOK a lot better...and you can do some nice baseboard woodwork.  I like the idea of having more water volume in my hydronic system.  Hopefully I'll get some water storage in the basement sometime in the future.


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## danmitchell9

We got the 9 radiators for $250.  It's still possible to get them cheap up here in Maine, but I've noticed that many people are starting to charge a fair amount for them ($100/ea.).


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## danmitchell9

As for painting...we just wire brushed, primed, and finish coated them Rustoleum.  They peel a little, so what.  Just like cracks in plaster, there's nothing you can do.  Do watch the lead chips with kids around though.


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## Eric Johnson

$100 each is still pretty cheap, all things considered. Of course, you can often get them for free in exchange for hauling them off. Just make sure that they hold pressure, or you're going to be in the scrap business. They are rather fragile and can't be tossed around too much. To find a supply locally, I would suggest checking with:

A local plumbing/heating supply place;
Demolition contractors;
Scrap yards
Antique/salvage businesses.

If you have a bombed out section of town with abandoned houses, you might nose around and see if any have ci rads. Many old houses in the Northeast do. Find the owner and try to negotiate a deal.

I've seen the English radiators on Ebay and they're not cheap. Add the cost of shipping them across the Atlantic, and I bet they're pretty expensive.

There are also several places that restore and resell old cast iron radiators. There's a place up in Montreal and one near Boston. Both have websites. You'll pay a premium, but they've been sandblasted and professionally painted, plus pressure tested, so they're ready to go. You can even specify the color.


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## djblech

I got onefor free about a month ago and plumbed it into the return line in my shop. I had thought to use it as a heat dump if I need one. It really heats nice. Be very careful with the paint as it will be lead. Sandblasting is bad because it creates lead dust. Should be a wet blasting process, keeps the dust down. I am a lead abatement supervisor so I have to get trained on this yearly.

djblech
Greenwood 100
stilh 170 and 360
kioti dk45 tractor and dump trailer
120 acres of woods 3 miles from home


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## kenny chaos

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> I think that's a great idea. If you already have 3/4" baseboard plumbed in, .



Actually they're only 1/2" lines. :down: 

Here's a site that explains sizing: http://www.colonialsupply.com/resources/radiator.htm

And here's one that sells new radiators: http://www.burnham.com/radiant_products.htm

I love the idea of powder coating.  It seems like they'd be easier to keep clean also.


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## 88rxn/a

WOW! thats really nice!
i wish mine had the detail like that!!

as you can see, GANDER was just as excited as i was getting these...


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## Eric Johnson

Very nice radiators.

I was at the Jerome Hotel in Aspen CO a few years ago and saw these beauties. They were stripped and clear coated; they look a lot like Kenny's.


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## Eric Johnson

I can tell you that my wife was absolutely thrilled to be seen with a guy taking photographs of radiators on his vacation.


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## 88rxn/a

i think mine are crane

kenny chaos:
do you know what type of rad. yours is?


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## kenny chaos

88rxn/a said:
			
		

> i think mine are crane
> 
> kenny chaos:
> do you know what type of rad. yours is?



Don't jump to conclusions fellas.  That was just a pic off of google image.
I do have a couple out in the barn I dragged over from the old house.
They look like your green ones except mine are an off rust white color.

Is it okay to mix and match the ci with my existing baseboard.
I don't see ever being able to do it all at once.
I did a search on craigs and see two different adds right now!  Very tempting for an impulsive guy.

I appreciate your guys ideas of beauty.


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## Eric Johnson

You're not supposed to mix baseboards and cast iron radiators on the same zone because they have different rates of heat output and for some reason that's supposed to be bad. I guess if you had a zone with baseboards in one room and radiators in another room and the thermostat was in the room with baseboards, the other room might tend to overheat. Anyway, it's a no-no according to the pros. I say: if it works, it works. And I think it would work. One well-placed cast iron radiator will replace many feet of baseboard.


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## kenny chaos

Anybody know off hand how many btu's my old baseboard is rated?  
My main objective for switching to rads is to get more heat.
Thanks-
Ken


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## danmitchell9

We had fintube and cast mixed together on the same zone.  Seemed to work OK.  But I've heard the same; that it's a no-no to mix em.  Just make sure you don't use steam radiators.  I had a steamer mixed in, and it gets airlocked above the bleeder valve, which is only 2/3 up the side.  It heats, but only below the valve.


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## EForest

My brother just installed a (gas fired :sick: ) Viessman condensing boiler in his old house with cast iron steam radiators and converted them to hot water with this steam to hot water conversion valve. His house has never been more comfortable since. You need to ditch the black pipe and run 3/8" pex supply and return to each rad from a manifold. It was a surprisingly simple task. that pex is easy to snake up walls.

Ed


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## kenny chaos

Obsessing:

I need 15,000 btu/hr for the big room.
25' of baseboard at 600btu/ft= 15,000btu/hr  so it should suffice- it doesn't
I figured the two radiators I already have at a combined 21,000 btu/hr.  Is that 25% more or 30% more?
Either way, those two rads alone should help tremendously and more efficient?

Thanks-


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## 88rxn/a

the guy i bought my STEAM rad. said to plug one end into the top of the side then out of other side at the bottom? has anyone tried it this way?
one of my rads will go into the kitchen at the end of my baseboard loop for down stairs. what i will do is make a bypass going to the rad with valves on both sides (2 "T's" on the main line making a center section) and valves on the center section below it on the main line. this way i can "feather" the flow to the rad or totally shut it off or run it full bore if needed.

kenny, im using HAYDON baseboard, its rated at 610BTU's @180F.


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## Eric Johnson

I don't know about more efficient, but I suspect you'll get a lot more heat.

Piping radiators is a point of contention. I always pipe into the bottom and out of the bottom. You have to think about whether you want them piped parallel or serial. Serial is easier and cheaper, but it won't work if you have too many rads on the zone, because the last one(s) in the series will always be cooler. The best way is with monoflo tees. Don't ask me to explain how they work, because I have only a vague idea. But it distributes the heat evenly to all the rads in the zone.


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## NHFarmer

I converted my house from steam to hot water.I used 1/2 pex,Feed in the top return out the bottom.They are working great.I agree with Eric,I don't really think it makes much difference but that is how I piped mine.I also used a manifold setup so each rad. has its own loop.


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## kenny chaos

NHFarmer said:
			
		

> I converted my house from steam to hot water.I used 1/2 pex,Feed in the top return out the bottom.They are working great.I agree with Eric,I don't really think it makes much difference but that is how I piped mine.I also used a manifold setup so each rad. has its own loop.



Why have each rad on its own loop?

Isn't it true that you can control the heat of an individual rad by adjusting its valve?

Thanks-


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## Eric Johnson

Basically, what he's talking about is having a main line with branches for each rad coming off it it. If you think about it, if you pipe them in series, any flow restriction on any individual rad will slow down the entire loop. With a monoflo tee setup, you can throttle each one down to your heart's content, and not affect the others. In theory, anyway. It's a more complex and expensive way of doing it, but it's also the right way. That's the way 13 of the rads in my house are piped. On the one that I installed myself there are only two rads--one for the kitchen and one for the laundry room. I ran them in series, because the rads are sized for the rooms, and so I don't restrict either one.


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## kenny chaos

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Basically, what he's talking about is having a main line with branches for each rad coming off it it. If you think about it, if you pipe them in series, any flow restriction on any individual rad will slow down the entire loop. With a monoflo tee setup, you can throttle each one down to your heart's content, and not affect the others. In theory, anyway. It's a more complex and expensive way of doing it, but it's also the right way. That's the way 13 of the rads in my house are piped. On the one that I installed myself there are only two rads--one for the kitchen and one for the laundry room. I ran them in series, because the rads are sized for the rooms, and so I don't restrict either one.



Yeah, okay.  I got it.  That's the way my baseboard is, one loop all the way around the basement with branches.  And you're calling each branch a loop.  Doesn't each rad have a valve to control the water flow thru it, located right there at the rad?  And it can be used as a thermostat, sorta?
thanks-


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## Eric Johnson

So you're all set. Don't worry about it and just replace the baseboard with the radiators or pipe the rads in series with the BB. If you do that, make sure the BB comes first, followed by the ci rad. The BBs need much hotter water than the rads. That's another advantage to cast iron--you get more usable heat out of your boiler. Not as good as infloor radiant, but def. better than baseboard.


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## kenny chaos

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> another advantage to cast iron--you get more usable heat out of your boiler. Not as good as infloor radiant, but def. better than baseboard.




Don't aggravate me Eric. :coolgrin: 
I do have the option of switching to radiant floor.  How much more efficient is it?


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## tom in maine

My last house was a two pipe steam system with beautiful old radiators.
I moved in on Jan. 10. It was -20 that night and the house only got up to 55F. We sorted out the problem and the next night,
it was 85 upstairs and 65 downstairs. 
We then installed thermostatic control valves on all the radiators and made the whole system work as well as it was going to.
Thank God oil was cheaper then.
I proclaimed the end of the heating season and took the recip saw to the hole system, except for the radiators.
BTW,  the old oil boiler had a 12" flue and some genius had installed a gate valve on the pressure relief valve!
AND it was shut!  Rocket ship boiler in Bangor, Maine!

I plumbed it with 2-3/4" feed and return lines with 1/2" branches to each radiator. I installed ball valves in the basement wherever it fed the radiator.

I had to install coin vents on all the radiators (there was a plug where it went) and made the system into a hot water system and used the original lower fittings.

In hindsight, I could've done it with a manifold system, but this kept the plumbing in the basement to a minimum and got the heat upstairs faster.

Ran the whole thing on an outdoor reset controller.

My friend, Dick Hill did some wood boilers using old radiators as the boiler heat exchanger. Worked very well and even if bought new, was a pretty
cheap way to build a boiler from scratch!


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## rickh1001

Eric, 

I didn't catch your original post on this, but you are way ahead of your time.  These old "radiators" are just that, as in Radiant Heating.  I have been looking at alternatives to the plenum hot air HX's I put in mostly as an expediency to get the job done.  However, into the end of the first heating season, I have been looking for ways to transport the heat with lower temperatures, and radiant is the way to go.  Trouble is, gorgeous old radiators like you show, have gotten very expensive.  These used to be junk items you could pick up for almost free - now they are works of art.  Radiant heat panels are still not cheap, although they are only a few times more expensive than baseboard.  After getting the boiler installed last year, just in time for the heating season, next year's goals are to insulate/insulate/insulate, then to replace the HX's with a heat delivery source that can be effective at much lower temperatures.  Beautiful old radiators would be just the trick.


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## kenny chaos

Eric- from your pics, it looks like the one is mounted about six inches from the wall.  Could you share any thoughts or ideas, or "rules of thumb", that say to place under window, six inch clearance for proper air flow, whatever?  Anybody?
PS- cool greenhouse

Thank-you to all the contributors of this thread.  Five pages of just good stuff.


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## DaveBP

Ignorant machinist's question:

If you have a CI radiator that has no provision for air bleeding or you want to install one in a way that makes an existing bleeder tough to reach, can't you just drill and tap where you want with the appropriate drill and pipe tap where you want it and install a your favorite bleeder. I realize it would be sacrilegious to modify those ornate and beautifully restored pieces but for your everyday radiators, why not. Most cast iron is easy to machine (not white cast iron like brake drums ).


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## 88rxn/a

cant you just bleed them with the coin screw?


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## Tarmsolo60

DaveBP said:
			
		

> Ignorant machinist's question:
> 
> If you have a CI radiator that has no provision for air bleeding or you want to install one in a way that makes an existing bleeder tough to reach, can't you just drill and tap where you want with the appropriate drill and pipe tap where you want it and install a your favorite bleeder. I realize it would be sacrilegious to modify those ornate and beautifully restored pieces but for your everyday radiators, why not. Most cast iron is easy to machine (not white cast iron like brake drums ).



Thats what I did to some old steam radiators I converted in a house I used to have.
Some even had a nice flat spot where you could drill near the top, or you could drill the threaded plug also.
It looks like radiator in Eric's post #7 didn't have either of those options, If it ever got air bound though I think I'd be driiling and tapping near the top anyway.


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## Eric Johnson

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> Eric Johnson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> another advantage to cast iron--you get more usable heat out of your boiler. Not as good as infloor radiant, but def. better than baseboard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't aggravate me Eric. :coolgrin:
> I do have the option of switching to radiant floor.  How much more efficient is it?
Click to expand...


It's all about usable heat. I think you can put 80 or 90 degree water through infloor or staple-up radiant and still heat with it, while you need hotter water for ci rads and even hotter water for baseboard. So the point is that you can get a lot more usable storage if you can draw it down to 80 or 90 degrees, instead of having to recharge it when it hits 120. It gives you a bigger battery.

As to radiator placement, it's best to put them under a window. My rule of thumb on distance from the wall is far enough away so that you can get a paint roller behind it.


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## Eric Johnson

DaveBP said:
			
		

> Ignorant machinist's question:
> 
> If you have a CI radiator that has no provision for air bleeding or you want to install one in a way that makes an existing bleeder tough to reach, can't you just drill and tap where you want with the appropriate drill and pipe tap where you want it and install a your favorite bleeder. I realize it would be sacrilegious to modify those ornate and beautifully restored pieces but for your everyday radiators, why not. Most cast iron is easy to machine (not white cast iron like brake drums ).



You can drill and tap cast iron. Some old radiators have a thicker spot, often with a little dimple for starting your drill, cast into the top of the radiator ends. Most people try to take the top plug out and replace it with one that can accommodate a 1/4-inch bleeder. On the old steam rad in my kitchen without a top pipe, you'd have to tap and drill each column (there are maybe 15 total) to bleed all the air out of the radiator, since each column traps it own air. Believe me, I thought about it. Not practical. That one is on its third heating season since I originally installed it, and it still produces an insane amount of heat, so I doubt there's much air caught in the tops of the columns, if any.

My old house, which I sold to a colleague, has an old hot water system originally designed for coal. Somebody retrofitted the coal boiler to oil at some point. I tore it out and put in a combination wood/oil boiler. The beauty of that setup is that it's all gravity feed. No pumps on the system at all. All you do is fire up the boiler and the water circulates naturally through all the rads in the system (2 zones). The trick is large-diameter pipe. In this case, it's 2.5-inch pipe branching down to 1" to feed the rads. The house, built in 1910, has no insulation in the walls, original double-hung windows with aluminum storms and the original clapboard siding. It's in the Adirondacks, where -30 temps in the winter are not uncommon and the power goes out on a regular basis. As long as you keep wood in the boiler, it stays nice and warm, power or no power.

Here's a pic from 2002 of one of the rads in that house. We still have the same stupid cat, and he still parks his ass on or around various radiators for the duration of the winter. You'd think he'd be happy, but he complains all the time.


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## Paso

Darn  I drove by the local scrap dealer and someone threw off 3 cast iron rads in the area of free dumping.

I looked twice at the old rads and didn't load them up, after reading this thread I see how stupid I was for not taking the time.


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## sparke

I just scored on 15 cast iron radiators of all different sizes.  They cost $150 each.  I think that is a good deal?


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## Eric Johnson

Yes. Try finding something as beautiful that will kick out as much heat and last as long for that price. You won't.


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## sparke

They are plain jane no ornamental design.  But Like you said , its all about being able to use lower water temps.  Perfect set up with water storage.  Well next best thing to radiant floor heat : )


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## kenny chaos

EDITED:

Bad link.


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## heaterman

Cast iron rads are a thing of beauty both in the physical sense and in the Physics sense. Roughly half of the heat output (depending on the surface temp of the iron) is pure radiant energy warming objects not air. The other percentage, whatever that may be, is convective heating which warms the air in the room and allows it to be heated more quickly than 100% radiant. Next to a radiant slab/floor it is the most comfortable form of heat there is. Controlling the heat _can_ be done with a thermostat which starts/stops flow by some means but to reall really let them shine and function as they are capable a person simply must use TRV's. A TRV (thermostatic radiator valve) is another device that proves God intended for us to be heated with hydronic heat instead of hot, forced air. The heavy mass of a cast iron rad and the throttling action of a TRV are a match made in heaven. The TRV will seek the balance point in a room and allow juuuuuust enough flow to match the desired setpoint. I love the feel of an idling rad on a 25* March morning, just barely warm enough to heat the room but providing glorious comfort to all in its presence.  ACK I'm getting poetic about a hunk of iron for cryin' out loud.  I guess there is nothing wrong with singing the praises of something that works as well as a CI rad.


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## kenny chaos

heaterman said:
			
		

> Cast iron rads are a thing of beauty both in the physical sense and in the Physics sense. Roughly half of the heat output (depending on the surface temp of the iron) is pure radiant energy warming objects not air. The other percentage, whatever that may be, is convective heating which warms the air in the room and allows it to be heated more quickly than 100% radiant. Next to a radiant slab/floor it is the most comfortable form of heat there is. Controlling the heat _can_ be done with a thermostat which starts/stops flow by some means but to reall really let them shine and function as they are capable a person simply must use TRV's. A TRV (thermostatic radiator valve) is another device that proves God intended for us to be heated with hydronic heat instead of hot, forced air. The heavy mass of a cast iron rad and the throttling action of a TRV are a match made in heaven. The TRV will seek the balance point in a room and allow juuuuuust enough flow to match the desired setpoint. I love the feel of an idling rad on a 25* March morning, just barely warm enough to heat the room but providing glorious comfort to all in its presence.  ACK I'm getting poetic about a hunk of iron for cryin' out loud.  I guess there is nothing wrong with singing the praises of something that works as well as a CI rad.




Wow. That was really beautiful.
I'll have to make a note of the TRV.


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## sparke

Well said Heaterman!
Can you imagine all the CI rad's that were replaced because of poor control or bad piping?  I am sure many folks just wanted to create extra space but I would be willing to bet poor controls and run away heat was the more likely problem.  Nothing like a mini wood stove in every room!


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## NHFarmer

Heaterman I could not have said it better. I love my RADs. Plus they make great towel or glove warmers


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## Eric Johnson

My wife puts the line-aired sheets on the rads in our sunroom in the winter for that last little bit of drying, and the whole room smells like fresh linen.


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## WRVERMONT

I love cast Iron Radiators too.  Our most recent heating addition is a great big one.  Sandblasted and freshly painted, it's awesome.  It's neat that these "old tech rigs" are now the perfect radiation for Our boiler systems of today.  Make sure to grab them up from all the scrap yards.  Don't let them be crushed.  Enjoy the Warmth.


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## kenny chaos

It's like Christmas again!
I scored a whole flock of radiators today.  
Soon I'll "love the feel of an idling rad on a 25* March morning, just barely warm enough to heat the room but providing glorious comfort to all in its presence."

A couple questions: 1- My living room is 20x16 and I had planned two rads but I got one big one that would give the BTU's.  Bad idea?                              
                             2- I just really wanna be sure about question #1.  I can fake the rest.
Thanks-ken


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## NHFarmer

The heat will be more even with two. Just put them on either side of the room


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## MissingTool

Hello All,

I am in the midst of a master bedroom/bathroom reno and am replacing my finned copper baseboard rad in the bedroom. I'm a bit nostalgic about the old cast iron rads from the house I grew up in, and I've found some that I could get my hands on, but I read somewhere in an earlier post that you're not supposed to have finned copper and cast iron on the same zone. Can someone shed a little more light on this situation, and tell me what I should be looking out for if I am able to add a cast-iron rad to this zone? Not sure how it all goes together...I'm a novice at best. Thanks in advance for your advice.


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## Eric Johnson

They will go together and work on the same zone. The only problem is that they radiate heat at different rates, so that if you have a thermostat in the room with the baseboard, the room with the cast iron rad is probably going to overheat. Of course, if you pipe it right, you can always just turn down the cast iron rad.

It's a no-no with heating professionals, but I wouldn't hesitate doing it in my own house, simply because the cast iron rads are so nice--especially in a bathroom!


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## MissingTool

Thanks...a few more questions. I have 3/4" copper piping...will there be any problem connecting that to a CI rad? Also, is there a way to put a thermostat on that CI rad to shut it off if it gets too hot? Last, how big a rad do I need? The room is 12'x17' w/8' ceilings, and the rad will be located in a corner, under a window...the bathroom (since you mentioned it) is 12'x7'.


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## kenny chaos

MissingTool said:
			
		

> Thanks...a few more questions. I have 3/4" copper piping...will there be any problem connecting that to a CI rad? Also, is there a way to put a thermostat on that CI rad to shut it off if it gets too hot? Last, how big a rad do I need? The room is 12'x17' w/8' ceilings, and the rad will be located in a corner, under a window...the bathroom (since you mentioned it) is 12'x7'.





If the old fintube was adequate, guesstimate it at 600 BTU's/foot and that'll tell you how much you need.  Example; if it was a 10' heater, you need about 6000btu's to heat that room.
Then use the following to find the right cast iron radiator.  And if you read all the threads, you will learn about about 3/4" pipe and TRV's.   http://www.colonialsupply.com/resources/radiator.htm


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## Eric Johnson

Yes, as Kenny says, a TRV will automatically control the temp. And yes, 3/4-inch copper is fine for most radiators. As to the question of whether they fill all the way with water: they should. If not, you're not venting them correctly and they won't heat properly. A ci rad should be full of water with no air.

EDIT: A ci rad in a hot water system should be full of water. In steam systems, it's a whole different process. Same radiators in many cases--just a completely different way of transferring the heat internally.


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## trehugr

Just picked up this beauty up in Rochester, NY while there for bowhunting. It cleaned up nicely, no leaks and fills in that blank space where the pellet stove used to live. Oh, and there is three less deer in NY out of a herd of 900,000.


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## NNYorker

trehugr said:
			
		

> Just picked up this beauty up in Rochester, NY while there for bowhunting. It cleaned up nicely, no leaks and fills in that blank space where the pellet stove used to live. Oh, and there is three less deer in NY out of a herd of 900,000.



  Beautiful piece of cast iron...three less deer with magnetic antlers to run into the side of my truck!!


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