# Bad News on Pellets Stoves???



## AlaskaCub (Apr 14, 2008)

I had a long discussion with the guy that runs the biggest wood stove dealer in Alaska and he basically told me that I would be an idiot to buy a pellet stove at this point in time as they will soon be obsolete. He explained to me that China is gobbling up all the raw materials that Pellets are made of and are wiling to pay pellet produced prices for the raw materials. He basically said that the supply will die out within the next year or two and then it will be very difficult to even find pellets. Understand that at one time he sold many pellet stoves but will not sell anymore so as not to leave someone high and dry with a stove they cant use. Does anyone know more about this? Really bummed me out as I was considering a Harmon P68.


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## berlin (Apr 14, 2008)

it's possible, being in alaska though you may want to look into coal, there is a company in (or close to) ankorage taht makes a good coal stoker furnace to burn your local soft coal.


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## sylvestermcmonkey (Apr 14, 2008)

Yup. We buy everything from China so they're buying all the world's oil, gas, steel, fertilizer, wheat, corn, wood, copper, lead, granite, land, dirt, sand, gold, hogs, aluminum, rice, soybeans, coffee, sugar, cotton, zinc, silver, nickel, and cheese, effectively cornering the market in everything and leaving us with nothing. So stop buying stuff, it's a waste of money.


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## kilarney (Apr 14, 2008)

This guy doesn't sell pellet stoves.  Methinks there is a reason other than this.  He's just trying to get your business.  Be wary.


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## pinewoodburner (Apr 14, 2008)

There could be some truth to that.  When China started building that dam that would be the largest in the world, they started buying all the concrete and they created a shortage.  In 6 months, concrete went from $45 a cubic yard to around $120.  Prices stayed up for several years.


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## BubbRubb (Apr 14, 2008)

I wouldn't go to a Toyota dealer and ask him what he thinks about a Honda Accord.  I doubt he would say the Accord is better than anything on his lot.


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## kh395269 (Apr 14, 2008)

Hmm... I don't know, but I don't really see it though. What would China want with all our sawdust? Isn't that the primary raw material for pellets? And it just doesn't make sense to me that they would pay a ton of money for it and then all that shipping as well from here? The demand for pellets here in the U.S. is rising faster here then the companies can keep up with already - hence why they had the shortage of pellets a few years back. As long as there is a demand here, I would think they are going to keep producing here.

 If anything, I would think there would be more of a shortage of pellets due to less building going on (due to the recession)and the increase in pellet stove sales driven by the price of oil, not shipping overseas of the raw materials. 

I also thought I heard though that we are trying to develop a new pellet out of grass. If they could do that or out of leaves, imagine the possibilities. That should make them cheap. Here's a quick article I just found:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/March05/grass.fuel.ssl.html


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## webbie (Apr 14, 2008)

Uh - sawdust= particle and OSB board = Homes and packing crates!

Sawdust, as Eric has explained many times, is an international commodity. At the same time, it often does not pay to transport it over land unless by RR car - but over a ship? Yeah, no problem.

Pellets are very likely to track with oil to a degree - just enough cheaper to make it worth while for those who want to burn them. But I doubt you will see really cheap pellets prices (as a whole).


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## mkmh (Apr 14, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Uh - sawdust= particle and OSB board = Homes and packing crates!
> 
> Sawdust, as Eric has explained many times, is an international commodity. At the same time, it often does not pay to transport it over land unless by RR car - but over a ship? Yeah, no problem.
> 
> Pellets are very likely to track with oil to a degree - just enough cheaper to make it worth while for those who want to burn them. But I doubt you will see really cheap pellets prices (as a whole).



For the most part I agree with this. I think i'd hesitate to buy a pellet stove if I lived more than 150 miles away from a pellet mill...and i'd certainly hesitate to open a pellet mill if I didn't have a source of raw materials available somewhat nearby. The rising cost of oil is changing the playing field with almost all products and services as we speak.
I really don't see all our raw materials and/or pellets going to China....but the fact that China will want some of the goodness will certainly impact prices. Pretty sure we see that impact with barrells of oil and most other stuff as well.


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## mkmh (Apr 14, 2008)

I'd love to see them perfect those grass pellets, but I have not seen much activity on that front in quite some time.
Seems like there was a "flurry" of research in 2005 when wood pellet supplies were not meeting demand, but I have not heard much lately
http://www.reap-canada.com/online_library/Reports and Newsletters/Bioenergy/263,19,Production and economics of switchgrass pellets

Another "good" shortage might relight the fire.


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## smirnov3 (Apr 14, 2008)

two comments:

1) Grass pellets don't work in 90% of modern stoves, so unless stoves are modified to burn them, there is no incentive to make grass pellets. 
without grass pellets on the market, there is little incentive to make grass pellet stoves

2) canada has whole forests of dead trees that it needs to harvest before they rot (due to borer beetles), so they have enough sawdust for pellets, which is why, as a whole, pellet prices are very reasonable, even with the down turn in construction and the insane surge in oil costs (over 300% in the past 5 years for heating oil in MA).


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## ugenetoo (Apr 15, 2008)

from what ive seen and read, grass pellets perform about the same way as corn or any other grains. they form clinkers that have to be dealt with in some manner.
if you have a stove designed to burn grains, you should be able to burn grass pellets.


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## Shooter (Apr 15, 2008)

I've read pellet stove owners burning cheap (dry) dog food and others burning cherry pits.  I'll be burning corn if pellets go nuts.


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## AlaskaCub (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for the responses. The Pellet stove seems like a much easier option for us as opposed to a wood stove ,even though the Pellet stove and pellets are more expensive than a wood stove and wood. Right now we have 2-3 box store suppliers for pellets but stock on hand and prices fluctuate so much that its scary and if Lowes, Sams or Home Depot were to stop supplying them we would be screwed in a big way. So this worries me a whole bunch. We have two potential local pellet suppliers that may be online this summer/fall. but both have been saying this for several years, and one of them will only sell you pellets if you buy  the stove from him so its really a heck of a risk right now. Corn is a no go up here too though the PF65 will burn Barley but I am told the BTU count is lower and a little more messy. I sure do like those Harmon pellet stoves though, but am thinking a Blaze King wood stove is probably a safer investment right now. Will have to decide I guess.


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## Redox (Apr 15, 2008)

kh395269 said:
			
		

> Hmm... I don't know, but I don't really see it though. What would China want with all our sawdust? Isn't that the primary raw material for pellets? And it just doesn't make sense to me that they would pay a ton of money for it and then all that shipping as well from here? The demand for pellets here in the U.S. is rising faster here then the companies can keep up with already - hence why they had the shortage of pellets a few years back. As long as there is a demand here, I would think they are going to keep producing here.
> 
> If anything, I would think there would be more of a shortage of pellets due to less building going on (due to the recession)and the increase in pellet stove sales driven by the price of oil, not shipping overseas of the raw materials.
> 
> ...



Sawdust exported to China isn't really a stretch if you consider that they are a large market for our recycled paper.  I wouldn't a thought it either, but that "slow boat to China" is pretty efficient.... :lol:


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## Ken45 (Apr 15, 2008)

AlaskaCub said:
			
		

> even though the Pellet stove and pellets are more expensive than a wood stove and wood.



I'm not sure that wood stoves are cheaper than pellet stoves when you consider the expensive chimneys that wood stoves require.

But yes, wood is cheaper than pellets (and likely to be more reliable supplywise), especially if you have your own woodlot.

Ken


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## Shooter (Apr 15, 2008)

Ken45 said:
			
		

> AlaskaCub said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldnt want to go back spending the summer fighting bugs, handling each piece of wood how many times, beating up trucks and trailers, dirt on the carpeting, going out into the blizzard after firewood.....blah, blah, blah....

Pellets are the bomb.


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## Ken45 (Apr 15, 2008)

Shooter said:
			
		

> I wouldnt want to go back spending the summer fighting bugs, handling each piece of wood how many times, beating up trucks and trailers, dirt on the carpeting, going out into the blizzard after firewood.....blah, blah, blah....
> 
> Pellets are the bomb.



I was speaking to the economics.  You replied with your personal preferences, a totally different subject.

I don't understand your "back to the summer fighting bugs".   Was that when you worked your firewood?  It should be done well before then if it's going to be reasonably seasoned.

Personally, we use both firewood and pellets.  Pellets are nice for mild days and thermostat control but, in our experince, *we want wood for real heat and comfort*. A pellet stove just doesn't measure up to a wood stove.  We just bought a new wood stove (not hooked up yet) for next winter.  

Ken


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## kh395269 (Apr 15, 2008)

I think there are pretty much pros and cons to both a wood or a pellet stove, but in the end it  pretty much evens out. It just depends on what features you like better overall.

I don't know how much wood you burn compared to pellets in the same period, but a cord of wood here in CT is about $200 delivered and a pallet of pellets without shipping about $220 if you buy early enough. I have a friend that just built a house here and when she built they had to clear the land. Obviously, since she already had a ton of free wood, it just made more sense for her to buy a wood stove.

Wood is much easier to store (covered outside) as opposed to pellets that have to be kept more dry in a shed, garage, or basement. Therefore, if storage is an issue, wood may be better.

Pellets you are better off pre-buying which is alot to store vs wood which you can pretty much get any time of the year. I guess if you don't live close to a pellet mill or alot of suppliers, you also need to be concerned about supplies.

Pellets make less ash vs wood that can be messier to deal with.

I do like the idea of going to get a bag of pellets from my basement (or keeping a few bags even in the corner temporarily) as opposed to hauling out back to get the firewood on a snowy day. You can't really keep wood in your house with the bug and dirt factor.

I'm not so sure on that price of installation. I still need to put a stainless liner in my fireplace with a pellet stove which is pretty darn pricey($250-$350 for a 15 ft if you buy it directly).

It can be easier for a woman like me to pick up and haul some wood, rather than a 40lb bag of pellets, but I guess there are ways around that and it is still cleaner to have a bag of pellets rub up against your clothes, then a bundle of awkward wood to carry. And besides, I figure if I can lug around my 2 1/2 and 4 year olds, I can lug around 40lbs of pellets. 

I thought I had also heard that pellet stoves are overall safer and have a cleaner burn for the environment. 


In the end, I guess I like convenience and I'm a neat freak, and that's why I chose a pellet stove.


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## AlaskaCub (Apr 15, 2008)

Please understand I have a preference to neither stove, with maybe a hint of pref to the pellet for ease of use. But I live in an unforgiving climate and really have to think more about long term reliability as opposed to comfort and conveneience, or I'd just burn the oil. Wood is everywhere here, pellets well...thats a whole nother story.


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## kh395269 (Apr 15, 2008)

I agree 100%. The whole entire idea for me buying stove as well is to save $$$'s - hopefully lots. $700+ a month for 1/2 a tank fill-up during peak winter is killing us here and the prices are still rising. I don't even have a large house.


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## AlaskaCub (Apr 15, 2008)

Yup and at one point this winter pellets were $8 a bag when supply was low. That would be quite spendy burning 1-2 bags a day.


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## kh395269 (Apr 15, 2008)

AlaskaCub, It definitely sounds like wood would be the way to go for you...


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## Ken45 (Apr 17, 2008)

kh395269 said:
			
		

> I think there are pretty much pros and cons to both a wood or a pellet stove, but in the end it  pretty much evens out. It just depends on what features you like better overall.



Very true.



> I don't know how much wood you burn compared to pellets in the same period, but a cord of wood here in CT is about $200 delivered and a pallet of pellets without shipping about $220 if you buy early enough



But a cord of wood should weigh at least a ton and a half.  Heat provided from efficient stoves should be pretty closely related to the weight of fuel burned (e.g. a ton of pellets should provide the same heat as 2/3rd of a cord of wood).



> Pellets you are better off pre-buying which is alot to store vs wood which you can pretty much get any time of the year.



Can you get *seasoned wood* in your area any time of the year?  (I mean real seasoned wood, not something with salt and pepper sprinkled on it.)

For many areas, I think the only way to have seasoned wood is to buy it far in advance.



> Pellets make less ash vs wood that can be messier to deal with.



But cleaning out some pellet stoves is a real mess and they need it a lot more frequently than a wood stove.



> I thought I had also heard that pellet stoves are overall safer and have a cleaner burn for the environment.



A modern EPA wood stove burning well seasoned wood is probably just  about as environmentally friendly.  You are right, wood stoves are easier to be dangerous with.  OTOH, a wood stove works during a power failure and doesn't have expensive electronic boards and auger motors which can fail.

Ken


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## Shooter (Apr 17, 2008)

I'm thinking that if reliability is a major player then it would be best to look into a wood stove.  If pellets hit 8.00bag that would make the decision for me right there.


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## AlaskaCub (Apr 17, 2008)

Thats just it, theres no reliable source to rely on for pellets locally. Theres lots of talk of folks getting the pellet thing up and running but none have as of yet. Wood is readily available!


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## RedRanger (Apr 17, 2008)

Alaskacub"  sounds like you are trying to be frugal at the same as wanting quality."

Lots of bears up there in Alaska,even maybe a kodiak for you.  %-P 

I just love my kodiak insert with the 5/16 steel on top and 1/4 on the sides.  They do it seems make a biggy for the stoves, a 3.1cu.ft bear. And forget about the ugly pics on their website,these bears are far more handsome than those pics. First, they are black not grey.  and so far as I have discovered , easy on the wood consumption. but massive heat output. 

And you might just find even getting that monster delivered there will easily offset the costs as opposed to something less reliable.
These things are rugged and "heavy"..  Knowing what I know now, I would make the dealer get one  of these for me in alaska. I mean do you want heavy duty steel with a big firebox or do you want pretty with tonnes of heat output?  Well this bear will give ya both.. my avatar is the kodiak insert.


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## begreen (Apr 17, 2008)

ok, enough of the sales pitch. 1/16 of an inch plus or minus isn't going to impress your wife and it's not going to impress a pellet stove owner either.  :coolsmirk:


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## AlaskaCub (Apr 17, 2008)

Actually it looks like I am going with a Blaze King Princess. Everyone I have talked to says ,that it is the stove for Alaska period! Long , low buns,  supposedly nothing will compete with it for the size and output.


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## begreen (Apr 17, 2008)

Good choice, a princess with long low buns  

Sorry, silly me taking advantage of a typo. From all reports this is a great stove for AK.


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## RedRanger (Apr 17, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Good choice, a princess with long low buns
> 
> Sorry, silly me taking advantage of a typo. From all reports this is a great stove for AK.



Yep if ya got the dollars, that is the best way to go.  Up to 20 hour heat output.  So the cat cleaning and stuff is minor compared to the production you are going to get out of that puppy..  And you are going to burn a whole lot less wood, long as it is seasoned and ready to go.

I still like my Bear though, so take that BG :coolsmile:


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## Richardin52 (Apr 17, 2008)

I don't see a problem in my area.  4 pellet mills with 75 miles, one within 15.  So long as pellets are cheaper than oil, and they will be.


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## kinsmanstoves (Apr 17, 2008)

Right, everyone should sell their stove and I will buy them up for $50 each and I will split the shipping with you.  I can be reached at 330-876-0200  Eric


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## Ken45 (Apr 17, 2008)

Rich said:
			
		

> I don't see a problem in my area.  4 pellet mills with 75 miles, one within 15.  So long as pellets are cheaper than oil, and they will be.



Local pellet mills won't help you if they don't have access to inexpensive raw material (sawdust).  Sawdust used to be a waste product that nobody wanted.  Now it's becoming hard to find.  There was an article in the Wall Street Journal noting how the price has quadrupled and some outfits have to drive 500 miles to find any sawdust.  This wasn't just a localized problem, the article quoted from three widely different areas of the country and implied that it was a widespread issue.

Ken


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## AlaskaCub (Apr 17, 2008)

Thats exactly the information that I recieved, and with this next stove purchase being a long term investment with ever increasing heating cost, the uncertainty of such changed my mind with the quickness. I am not worried about not being able to stockpile pellets for one winter but thinking about the next 5-10 winters. And being stuck with a $3000 pellet stove that I cant use or that rivals operating expense to an oil furnace made for bad ju ju on me buying one. Though I wish so badly this werent the case cuz the idea of a push button heat supplement thats less messy than wood and is fairly inexpensive to operate is quite appealing.


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## buildingmaint (Apr 17, 2008)

April sale at my local supplier . $185.00 A TON. I paid $195 last year.


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## Ken45 (Apr 18, 2008)

buildingmaint said:
			
		

> April sale at my local supplier . $185.00 A TON. I paid $195 last year.



Where??????


What is left over this year where a store overestimated their sales is not an indication of what prices will be this coming fall.  I suspect that NEW pellets are going to be 10-20% higher than last year, maybe more in some areas.  I hope I'm wrong.

Ken


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## Shooter (Apr 18, 2008)

I can still order by the ton for 158.00


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## richg (Apr 18, 2008)

I think we have a Seinfeld thread here. A guy who only sells wood stoves is telling people not to buy pellet stoves. We may want to ask the companies who are building pellet mills left and right as to what they think of "China is going to buy all of our sawdust and there won't be any left for pellets".


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## Richardin52 (Apr 18, 2008)

I don’t know about Alaska but here in Maine they are talking about all kinds of stuff being made into fuel pellets.  I have seen an article out of Canada that identified areas in the US and Canada where hay has been traditionally sold at low market prices.  This article said that eventually hay would be used a lot as wood prices go up.  It also said products that are now being landfilled will be used.  Also the mills in this area are not only using sawdust, they are buying wood just like the paper companies are.  

Supply and demand will govern the price of fuel pellets.  To think that pellets will be shipped overseas when they can sell them for as much here (less the shipping and handling) does not make sense.    

Oil will not go up for ever but lets face it cheap oil is gone.  There’s plenty oil sand, coal oil etc. but it won’t be cheap and it won’t be clean.  I see a bright future for fuel pellets.


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## kilarney (Apr 18, 2008)

Yes, sawdust has become more expensive.  But where does it say that pellets will only be made of sawdust?

Here in the northeast, the market for pulp has all but crashed.  Almost 100% of pulp is being sent to Canada.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that pellets can be made from this pulp.  Will it be as cheap as waste sawdust?  No.  But it will still be quite affordable.


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## Ken45 (Apr 18, 2008)

kilarney said:
			
		

> Yes, sawdust has become more expensive.  But where does it say that pellets will only be made of sawdust?



But it is my understanding that today's pellet stoves won't burn some of the future alleged alternatives.



			
				kilarney said:
			
		

> Here in the northeast, the market for pulp has all but crashed.  Almost 100% of pulp is being sent to Canada.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that pellets can be made from this pulp.  Will it be as cheap as waste sawdust?  No.  But it will still be quite affordable.



But if the economic model that cost justifies pellet stoves is based on the raw material being waste and free or very low cost, the economics will change tremendously when the pellet mills have to buy logs, chip them and dry the chips before they can start to make pellets.  If that happens, expect large increases in pellet prices  that may make them NON cost effective.


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## Richardin52 (Apr 18, 2008)

I guess I will agree to disagree.  If pellets ever got that expensive I'd buy a small pellet machine and make my own out of hay I cut on my farm.


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## AlaskaCub (Apr 18, 2008)

Heres how I see it, it cost fuel to make pellets and it cost "LOTS" of fuel to transport pellets. Combine an increase in price for pellets with the panic buying mentality that many of us have which institues hoarding more than buying, I can see some probems in the not so distant future. This is without taking into account for less new construction = less wood being cut, countrys like China buying all our raw materials regardless of quality or grade, and the high cost associated with starting up a pellet producing business. It all spells out to long term high prices or low availability to me. One of the local guys that is trying to get to where he can make pellets says he will have 2 million $$$ invested when its all said and done, that really suprised me. With all those thoughts I still havent ruled out buying one....grin


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## Xena (Apr 18, 2008)

I'm not worried at this time.  My stove
has paid for itself in savings already.
I'm getting next years pellet supply at a reasonable
price.   If the pellet scene plays out as the OP
has predicted I'll worry about it then.
Too much shyte on my plate to sweat it
right now.


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## stoveguy13 (Apr 18, 2008)

i would not worry about the pellet maket playing it self out it has been said the pellet market would be short lived for the last 15 som yrs it is still chugging along and as the green movement come it will find it may hit some bumps along the way but to think that the market will die is just not reasonable the more demand for a product the more companies pump cash into the market it will survive in what direction the market moves is not perfectly clear but my guess is that we will keep seeing more and more multi-fuel stove.


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## RedRanger (Apr 18, 2008)

stoveguy13 said:
			
		

> i would not worry about the pellet maket playing it self out it has been said the pellet market would be short lived for the last 15 som yrs it is still chugging along and as the green movement come it will find it may hit some bumps along the way but to think that the market will die is just not reasonable the more demand for a product the more companies pump cash into the market it will survive in what direction the market moves is not perfectly clear but my guess is that we will keep seeing more and more multi-fuel stove.



I agree with pellet stoves not going away.  The question is going to be how  cost effective will they be?  There is a processing ;process, therefore always more expensive than wood. Sometimes a huge infusion of capital is not always the answer,eg. VC. and chapter 11.


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## AlaskaCub (Apr 19, 2008)

This is all easy to say for folks who already own their stoves but for us newbs looking to get in the game the concerns I have presented have to be considered. I went to Sams, Lowes, and Home Depot today and not one of them had a full pallot (ton) of pellets in stock. Just whatever bags were left on the store floor palot. That in itself was a real eye opener, cuz I would buy pellets a ton at a time if I buy the stove. And winter is not over yet here, it was -4 F here  yesterday morning.


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## eernest4 (Apr 19, 2008)

Well, I might as well add my 2 cnts worth. Pellets are expected to be $6.oo bag in aug 2008,in Ct. 

This price increase is due to several factors:

     Increased cost of saw dust because of lack of housing starts forcing some smaller wood/
saw mills out of business. This means that a pellet mfg co would have to go further away to
secure a supply of sawdust & the extra distance translates into more desial fuel used to get the saw dust to the pellet mill which = higher cost of sawdust.

  Small saw mills going out of business = less saw dust available = higher prices for saw dust.

Some pellet mills will have to have a machine that can grind down a log into sawdust as the supply of saw dust from saw mills becomes undependable or more costly.

Pellets always go up in price whenever there is a shortage & with more people buying pellet stoves , a  demand that exceeds supply is assured; thus insuring higher pellet prices.

With all of that being said, I still like my pellet stove because it is so much easier to use when i am dead tired, like at 3 am when the wood stove burns dead & i just push the on button of the pellet stove & go right back to bed without much loss of sleep.

Compair that to getting another fire loaded & adjusted for cruise burning 45 minutes to 1 hr sleep lost at 3 am ,so that with the wood stove, I am getting back to bed at 4 am & maybe can't sleep as I been awake for a hour ferting around with the wood stove vs back in bed at 3:04 with the pellet stove.

The best answer I could come up with was to buy both a wood & a pellet stove, which is just what I did.

Pellets are going to get more expensive , every year, but then, fuel oil & gasoline are going to get more expensive ,every year ,too . And wood cut,split & delevered is going to get more expensive , every year, also.

Increases in the price of gasoline,fuel oil & desial fuel are creating inflation buy driving the price of everything else up accordingly.

People are broke after paying for gasoline , fuel oil & electricity have no desposable income left to spend at retail stores & barely enough left to buy food.

There are 14 major stores that have already gone bankrupt, chapter 11,or out of business already this year, as well as many smaller stores that used to deal in non essential items.

Bottom line is ,we are in & past, a recession and begining a depression.
every one will want more for their goods and services because the dollar buys less & less gasoline & you need more dollars from somewheres ,just to keep your gas gague on 1/4
full. 

Hard times are here now & they are going to get a ship load more hard before they even think about getting the least bit better.

The cheapest thing is a wood stove & scrounge free wood to burn; but,you have to be willing to cut & split & for old people, 60+, this is just not much of an option unelse the are in excellent health. For them I recommend a pellet stove.

For people 50 or younger, a wood stove if they have the time to feed the baby.
No time to feed the baby, go with a pellet stove.
For multi millionaires, I recommend a money burner, excuse me, an oil burner.

You may think now, that I am ranting & raving ,but in 2011, you will look back, if you even remember & you will say " By gosh!He nailed it dead to rights"!


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## buildingmaint (Apr 19, 2008)

My supplier said he could take as many truck loads at the price of $185.00 from his supplier , but he does not have the demand. Our winter this year was not as cold as last , but it was longer . He told me he has 42 tons and is getting another 40 tons in for the sale .


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## Richardin52 (Apr 19, 2008)

Think about this,  How many billions of dollars did the area where you live send out of the USA last winter just to buy heating oil?  

Take all the money every business, school and home spent on oil last winter, Now think what would have happened to your local economy if all that money had stayed in the local economy.  That’s what would have happened if all of them had bought fuel pellets made as close to you as possible.  Think that would have helped the economy just a little do ya?  

If there were a shortage do you think the mills would be expanding this summer or new ones would be comming on line? Do you think that would help the housing industry? Peoples jobs? boots, glove, pants, chainsaws, truck manufacturers dealers?

As far as I’m concerned they can take their oil and stick it on their dinner plate or some place else not so sunny.  I’ll burn pellets, use solar and burn bio fuels or use electric cars made in the USA or ride a bike if I have to.  It’s time for us all to look local for our needs.  The longer our dollars stay local the bigger chance they will have of coming back to you in one form or another.

Pellets will never be as high as oil and they are a local (US) fuel source.


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## webbie (Apr 19, 2008)

Rich said:
			
		

> Think about this,  How many billions of dollars did the area where you live send out of the USA last winter just to buy heating oil?



Maybe out of the USA (some), but a lot of our oil comes from Canada and Mexico..and Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico. I see nothing wrong with the idea of trading partners and fair trade. LOTS of our wood pellets come from Canada also.

There are many cases which can be made for pellets, but I don't think they are either the holy grail nor the solution to our energy problems. They are potentially ONE of many solutions, but only when (and if) the supply of the fuels and the reliability of the appliances both improve.

All in all, the bad economy is probably good news for pellet buyers this year. Despite higher transportation costs, a number of pellet plants have come online in the last year....these companies are going to want to sell their fuel. I really doubt we will see the $300 pellets we saw two years ago....


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## Ken45 (Apr 19, 2008)

eernest4 said:
			
		

> Pellets always go up in price whenever there is a shortage & with more people buying pellet stoves , a  demand that exceeds supply is assured; thus insuring higher pellet prices.



Generally I very much agree with your message.  However, if the economy really goes sour, maybe no one will have money to buy a pellet stove?


.


> With all of that being said, I still like my pellet stove because it is so much easier to use when i am dead tired, like at 3 am when the wood stove burns dead & i just push the on button of the pellet stove & go right back to bed without much loss of sleep.
> 
> Compair that to getting another fire loaded & adjusted for cruise burning 45 minutes to 1 hr sleep lost at 3 am ,so that with the wood stove, I am getting back to bed at 4 am & maybe can't sleep as I been awake for a hour ferting around with the wood stove vs back in bed at 3:04 with the pellet stove.



I agree about the convenience of the pellet stove but I never took that long to refuel the wood furnance.  Get up and refuel it before it runs down too far, and be back in bed asleep within ten minutes.  However, you are right, the pellet stove is nice, I don't have to get up at all.  I set the wood furnace at a lower setting so that it lasts the entire night and the pellet stove (with thermostat) comes on late in the night and picks up the slack.  There's usually enough coals left for the wood furnace to get going easily at 7 am.


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> The best answer I could come up with was to buy both a wood & a pellet stove, which is just what I did.



Agree.  The thermostat control of a pellet stove is nice.  Also very convenient for milder weather.


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> Pellets are going to get more expensive , every year, but then, fuel oil & gasoline are going to get more expensive ,every year ,too . And wood cut,split & delevered is going to get more expensive , every year, also.



True, but I think wood will still provide more BTU per dollar, especially if one scrounges or cuts some of their own wood.


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> Increases in the price of gasoline,fuel oil & desial fuel are creating inflation buy driving the price of everything else up accordingly.



Actually there is less "true" inflation than what it appears.  Our government is reducing the value of the dollar in real terms with it's irresponsible fiscal policies.  Oil isn't going up as much as it seems, the value of the dollar is going down!   Of course the oil producers want real value for their oil, they aren't going to sell it for the same cheapened dollars.


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> The cheapest thing is a wood stove & scrounge free wood to burn; but,you have to be willing to cut & split & for old people, 60+, this is just not much of an option unelse the are in excellent health. For them I recommend a pellet stove.



Now wait a minute   Who are you calling old?   I turned 61 this week and I've split and stacked 4 cord of wood this week, with another cord+ to go.  And I am not in "excellent health", but I'm trying to keep myself in some kind of shape.   But yes, I know I won't be able to do this indefinitely.   


However, it may be less expensive to buy wood than the equivalent amount of pellets and it's easier to bring in a few pieces of firewood than lug a 40# bag of pellets.  My wife can handle the firewood, she can't handle a bag of pellets, so I'm not sure that pellets are better than firewood for "the old folks" ;-)

As I said, I mostly agreed with your post.

Ken

Blazeking 1400
PE Summit awaiting installation
Harman Advance pellet stove (a disappointment)
Husky 353
Huskee 22t splitter


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## PutnamJct (Apr 19, 2008)

A pellet stove may or not be for everyone, you have to research and see if it is right for you. This is a great place to do that. Nevertheless, if you can not access a reasonable supply of pellets locally, it is not an option for you. 
It is hard to use the retailers (Depot, Lowes, Sams, etc) as your baseline for how the market is supplied. They always run months ahead of reality. (think Back to School displays in July when school just let out) 
For myself, I replaced about $5000 dollars in heating costs (using today's cost per gallon of oil) with $955 in pellets that are sitting on my property as of this week ready for next winter. For me it works. 

John


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## Fencible (May 28, 2008)

kh395269 said:
			
		

> I think there are pretty much pros and cons to both a wood or a pellet stove, but in the end it  pretty much evens out. It just depends on what features you like better overall.
> 
> 
> Wood is much easier to store (covered outside) as opposed to pellets that have to be kept more dry in a shed, garage, or basement. Therefore, if storage is an issue, wood may be better.
> ...




I agree with lots that you say, but.. pellets do not have to be kept in a shed, garage, basement. You do need room for them to drop the pallets outside where the aesthetics won't bother you too much though.

I've been burning pellets for many years now, and regarding pellets, the two most important things are to buy early (Late Spring) and enough for the year, and cover them properly.

Mine are always left outside on the pallets they come on, with the original plastic wrap. Of course, I do cover that wrap with two layers of impermeable tarp. I have 8 tons outside right now, including 1/2 ton left over. 

I only lost about 3 bags and I've been doing it this way for 10+ years. I lost those 3 because I got lazy with the covering. The 3 punky bags worked just fine around my blueberry bushes.

I'm lucky in that I'm very country where I live and having 1/2 ton of pellets sitting on the porch is not a bad thing, ready to bring in one bag at a time.


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## thomcoastal (May 28, 2008)

Discussions concerning the US supply of oil can be a bit misleading.  Most of the oil from Prudhoe Bay Alaska is being shipped to ports in Asia not the US.  The production counts as US production in the global market but the bulk (65-75%) of the oil we are currently refining in the US comes from outside the Western Hemisphere.  The pricing is not directly related to costs for commodities that are traded on the futures markets.

The energy futures markets sells oil still in the ground for "future" delivery.  When lots of money flows into the market prices increase - think supply and demand (the actual cash flowing into the oil futures markets has increased from $40 Billion in September of 2007 to over $255 Billion in May of 2008 - more money in, more demand for the basically set supply [OPEC] causes an increase in pricing).  The actual costs involved in the drilling, pumping, shipping & production are eclisped by the greed of people who want to make money in the market (who bid the prices up after watching the local news saying oil went up again).  As long as oil is freely sold on the US commodity market, the prices will reflect the increases from traders who want cash in their accounts.

Wood is a locally grown commodity in most of the US.  Pellet plants (current ones) use every bit of the tree to amke pellets not just the sawdust.  In Maine our tree cencus showed that the number of trees in the forests are increasing at an astounding rate due to the reduction in use of raw wood for paper production.  The overproduction has reduced the value of trees standing in the forest so the use of trees to make pellets makes sense.  The new pellet plants in Maine can use sawdust but are also equipped with machinery to utilize the entire tree making the risks of China using all our sawdust a little less of an issue in Maine (as well as most other places with modern mills).

Wood pellets will contribute at least 90% of my heat and hot water this coming winter.


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## gw2kpro (May 28, 2008)

I just got a quote for heating oil, 4.52/gallon.

At that price, which is today's current price, a ton of pellets would have to cost roughly $550 (for equivalent BTU output).

Today's price for pellets here is $219.

That's real savings.  Today.  I am buying 3 more tons of pellets this week, they plus the ones I have (got them on sale for $200 -- anyone else ever get to use a 10% off coupon on oil?)  will get me through this winter.  

My stove and install will pay for itself in 1.5 years. 

If the price of oil does not increase at all, and the price of pellets doubles, I will still see good savings each month.


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## thomcoastal (May 28, 2008)

I hadn't thought of using the 10% off the entire purchase price from a local lumber dealer for a delivery of $1000 or more.  i need 8 tons of pellets, I just asked the store manager and she said everything is included in the 10% off....I am off to pay for the pellets now...


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## GVA (May 29, 2008)

I know this is not the average price for wood......  BUT these guy's have been charging more per BTU than the cost of pellets for years.....
I believe they were $379 a cord before they were sold out for this year...  Check out the kiln dried pricing.... hh: 

http://mywoodenergy.com/2.html

FWIW Not alot of people have the space to store  and season thier own wood therefore they are stuck paying for it from companies like this.

I can't wait to see what they charge this fall.......


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## kohout77 (May 30, 2008)

Always pellet wood is 10x the work 30 new pellet mills this year as far as dust when lumbered half the tree lays on the ground raw material will be there they might have to work a little.Some pellet mills set price buy oil price in aug.


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## InTheRockies (Sep 4, 2008)

There were many things that led me not to even consider a pellet stove when I decided to replace the old wood stove that was in my house.  Pellet production is one of those things, especially living in a more rural area.  Milling operations keep disappearing in the US.  A local pellet facility in an adjoining county is closing because the last small milling operation was shut down on short notice in August.  Virtually all of the people in that county who had bought pellet stoves got their pellets from that facility.  They're now going to be stuck traveling a distance (minimum of 89 miles) to buy pellets. Needless to say, there are many in that area who are now worry that they won't get enough pellets to make it through the winter.  If you're in an urban area, you may have several big box stores or other distributors you can easily turn to--if you're in a rural area, your sources are more limited and if they disappear, you'll pay a premium in shipping if you can find someone who will ship to you or you'll spend a pretty penny to travel to pick them up yourself.


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## hoverfly (Sep 4, 2008)

InTheRockies said:
			
		

> There were many things that led me not to even consider a pellet stove when I decided to replace the old wood stove that was in my house. Pellet production is one of those things, especially living in a more rural area. Milling operations keep disappearing in the US. A local pellet facility in an adjoining county is closing because the last small milling operation was shut down on short notice in August. Virtually all of the people in that county who had bought pellet stoves got their pellets from that facility. They're now going to be stuck traveling a distance (minimum of 89 miles) to buy pellets. Needless to say, there are many in that area who are now worry that they won't get enough pellets to make it through the winter. If you're in an urban area, you may have several big box stores or other distributors you can easily turn to--if you're in a rural area, your sources are more limited and if they disappear, you'll pay a premium in shipping if you can find someone who will ship to you or you'll spend a pretty penny to travel to pick them up yourself.



If that the case then pellet manufactures can buy equipment to process whole logs, all ready being done in many plants do to the decrease of lumber production.


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## MainePellethead (Sep 4, 2008)

Hoverfly said:
			
		

> InTheRockies said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats correct. Corinth is doing that exact process. They recently have installed the necessary equipment and will be starting up very soon to use whole logs. That will help in the process seeing as sawdust is about 50 dollars a ton at present with them.


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## webbie (Sep 4, 2008)

Hoverfly said:
			
		

> If that the case then pellet manufactures can buy equipment to process whole logs, all ready being done in many plants do to the decrease of lumber production.



It doesn't matter if they CAN, it matters if they do.........

You can't argue with the fact that many people cannot buy pellets - or at least cannot buy them from multiple sources at decent prices. For those people, a pellet stove may not be a good idea - just like solar is a better deal in New Mexico than in Vermont.


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## thomcoastal (Sep 4, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Hoverfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pellets are available in nearly all parts of the counrty within 10% of last years prices...Not sure about your exact part of Mass but in the 8 differing communities I have checked with pellets are available with little or no increase in prices....


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## hoverfly (Sep 5, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Hoverfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Solar is a good deal in Vermont, or in Maine  As a mater of fact a community center in Springfield VT was built two three years ago and solar is used to heat the pool. People will get their pellets, maybe just not for the whole winter all at once, I my self have yet to get my first ton but there are limits on how much one can purchase to limit hording and the prices I got are not much different than last year.


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