# Propane tank - above or below ground?



## Knots

I'm building a new house in southern Maine.  Most heating will be by wood stove, but when I'm not around it will be propane. 

Also, hot water will be on-demand propane, the cooking will be propane, and the 6kw back-up generator will be propane.  

I'm looking for guidance on whether an in-ground or above-ground tank would be better.  Also, what the price difference is on the two.  Any advice on owning the tank vs having a company own it?

Thanks in advance...


----------



## lukem

I'm not sure how much advice I can offer.  I have an in-ground 500 gallon tank that was already installed when I bought the house.  For me, the only real advantage is that I don't have to look at it.


----------



## MishMouse

Depends on how much space you have. Ours is an above ground tank, and it does get in the way.

As for owning vs. renting I pay yearly rent on mine and if I had the opportunity I would purchase my own tank so I wouldn't be tied to a specific company.
By renting the tank from a company it tied me to that company FG, if I owned my own I could shop for the best price.


----------



## Knots

lukem said:


> I'm not sure how much advice I can offer.  I have an in-ground 500 gallon tank that was already installed when I bought the house.  For me, the only real advantage is that I don't have to look at it.



Thanks.  I was under the impression that an underground tank could be filled more than an above ground.  Not sure if that's true though.

Also, I read somewhere that above ground tanks can have flow problems below 20 below zero.


----------



## Knots

MishMouse said:


> Depends on how much space you have. Ours is an above ground tank, and it does get in the way.
> 
> As for owning vs. renting I pay yearly rent on mine and if I had the opportunity I would purchase my own tank so I wouldn't be tied to a specific company.
> By renting the tank from a company it tied me to that company FG, if I owned my own I could shop for the best price.



If you want to own it, who do you call to install it?  I would imagine the gas companies don't really want to sell you a tank.


----------



## MishMouse

They will sell you one, but it will be very expensive. Which is why I still rent.

 As for who do you call to install it, I would assume any gas company would be glad to install it for a price.

I think your best bet would be to call around in your area and do some pricing.
An above ground tank should be cheaper to install then a below ground tank.
So depending on what you want you may want to ask them about that also.

If I didn't own a wood stove I would definitely purchase the tank, as shopping around would save me major money.
But, since I only use it for occasional heating and to cook with I really do not go through enough to justify purchasing it.
If I was burning through a tank a month during the burning season like I was before the wood stove, yes I would buy the tank.


----------



## DAKSY

I asked my LP company if I could get an underground tank & they told me no problem. I just had to dig the hole & pour a concrete pad to support the tank & they'd install it. I decided to burn pellets for heat instead...


----------



## btuser

I looked at it but be careful.  A lot of propane companies I talked to said they would only fill their tanks, which made shopping around for the best price impractical.  They will put in the tank for free but if you don't use enough they charge.


----------



## Knots

btuser said:


> I looked at it but be careful.  A lot of propane companies I talked to said they would only fill their tanks, which made shopping around for the best price impractical.  They will put in the tank for free but if you don't use enough they charge.



Yikes.  This is what I'm worried about.


----------



## btuser

I know, they want to be your best friend before they bind you to their company.  In most areas its illegal (illegal, like you're a criminal) to fill another company's propane tank.  

I've got a friend who had them drop a 1000g tank in the ground for him.  Its been 4 years and yes only used about 50g/yr and they're threatening him to use more or they will come and take the tank.  He said he purposely buried the tank to discourage them. 

I understand propane companies are trying to make money, but I've had nothing but bad experiences when it comes to their service.  I had 2x250 gallon tanks for a pool heater we removed so the tanks just hung out for a year till they told me I'd have to pay a rental fee.  I told them to come and get the tanks that were 100% full, meaning  approx 200 gallons(80% fill) in each.  My rebate back was for 288 gallons and when I called to complain I had a 20 minute discussion about how a full propane  tank is  really an arbitrary state of reality.   Total b.s.  They stole from me.

My only other contact was for an apt heated with propane.  It was automatic delivery, and they never failed to fill us up right before the price took a dive, usually after New Years and mid May.  

Bastards.  20yrs later and I'm still pissed about that.


----------



## Knots

Marvelous.  Now I'm reminded why I like my wood stove so much.


----------



## lukem

btuser said:


> I've got a friend who had them drop a 1000g tank in the ground for him. Its been 4 years and yes only used about 50g/yr and they're threatening him to use more or they will come and take the tank.



Same here.  I wasn't buying enough propane so they tried to charge me the rental fee.  I told them to come get it...better bring your hoe...

They didn't come.  Oh well.


----------



## Trail_Time

Buy the tank.  Especially if you plan to be there a while.  I have had the pleasure of a company owned tank vs owning my own tank and I will NEVER go back to the former.  Way too much aggrivation and way overcharged.  Now all I do is call a couple suppliers and buy from whoever is the cheapest and or best service.

I would guess you would save enough to pay for the tank and install in 4-5 tank fills.

Check around.  Tank prices vary.  You can even find used or refurbished tanks.


----------



## Knots

Trail_Time said:


> Buy the tank.  Especially if you plan to be there a while.  I have had the pleasure of a company owned tank vs owning my own tank and I will NEVER go back to the former.  Way too much aggrivation and way overcharged.  Now all I do is call a couple suppliers and buy from whoever is the cheapest and or best service.
> 
> I would guess you would save enough to pay for the tank and install in 4-5 tank fills.
> 
> Check around.  Tank prices vary.  You can even find used or refurbished tanks.



Yeah - the local installer says if it's below ground the tank is mine, above and it's his.  I'm going to meet with the excavator soon and try to make arrangements to bury a 1000 gallon.


----------



## turbosporsche

Buy the tank and place it in ground.  They hold the same amount in or above ground only can fill them 80 %. Need room for expansion.  Lp is a gas but when compresses turns to liquid.  Heat affects when that happens so that's y u can't fill to the top.  Also when buried you don't have to worry about a tree falling on it or when it rusts turning brown.  Plus when buried some people clam a more constant pressure in the tank.  So.


----------



## Prairie Pucker

I've been using LP for 35 years and went through the same thought process when we built our new house ~20 years ago.  Not a fan of the above ground tank, so putting it underground sounded good.  But I was advised not to due to LP's heavier-than-air ability to infiltrate through the ground or creep along the outside of buried pipe if the tank should spring a leak.  Think basement filled with fumes and flipping the wall switch.  I don't recall whether local code here prohibits an in-ground tank, but there's something to be said for having visual access to monitor the condition of the tank.  Even above ground in a relatively "dry" environment the paint chips and rust begins, but at least you know it and can take care of it.  Personally, if I were considering the purchase of a house I would consider a buried tank in questionable condition to be a liability instead of an asset.  As far as buying/leasing, the lease costs me $100/year.  I grumble about it, but when the tank regulator went bad the company replaced it.  When the paint chips and rust start to accumulate, they're the ones who do the touch-up work.  A nice concrete pad with an attractive privacy screen minimizes the visual impact.

PP


----------



## Knots

Mr. Pucker - those are some very good points.  My only concern about leasing is that I will be primarily heating with wood, so my usage may be so low that they start to charge me a penalty fee.


----------



## RockyMtnHigh

A lot of people in my area do underground tanks due to forest fire issues. Other than that, I'm not much help lol


----------



## Knots

RockyMtnHigh said:


> A lot of people in my area do underground tanks due to forest fire issues. Other than that, I'm not much help lol



A large part of southern Maine burned to the ground in 1947, so that is a valid consideration.  Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fires_of_1947


----------



## T-Bear

Knots said:


> I'm building a new house in southern Maine.  Most heating will be by wood stove, but when I'm not around it will be propane.
> 
> Also, hot water will be on-demand propane, the cooking will be propane, and the 6kw back-up generator will be propane.
> 
> I'm looking for guidance on whether an in-ground or above-ground tank would be better.  Also, what the price difference is on the two.  Any advice on owning the tank vs having a company own it?
> 
> Thanks in advance...


I have a home in the southern Adirondacks. When I purchased the house ( not my primary residence) it had two 100 gallon above ground tanks. The house had two propane space heaters supplementing wood and electric. The tanks were rented  which locked me into Suburban Propane. At the time they were charging 3.50 plus per gallon.  I converted to a high efficiency propane boiler as primary heat and added a 15KVA generator for back up power.

I wanted to buy a 500 gallon underground tank. Suburban kept telling me these were not available. That was BS. I learned that many propane companies will only rent because they want you locked into them and they want to control the price.  I found a family owned but fairly large dealer who sold me the tank.
I had an excavator dig the hole, I did not need concrete in my area. After the tank was installed they buried it. The whole job including the tank fill was about $2800 and was done in one afternoon.

I can buy from anyone but the small dealer has multiple plans and is very cost competitive.  I pay the season in advance for a fixed price. This year $1.89 per gallon for 850 gallons delivered as needed.  If I need more it is sold to me at the going rate. If I have propane left over I get the propane in the tank and credit for more.  Propane tanks are only filled to about 80% capacity, so at best you get 400 gallons for a 500 gallon tank. That works out to 3 fills a year for me. 

This works great for me and I pay way less for propane then my neighbors. In my situation, the tank install costs were paid off in savings within 3 years.


----------



## Knots

Thanks for the info.  That's what I want to do, but with a 1000 gallon tank.


----------



## bigdaddy11

11 years ago I insisted the propane company let bury the tank because I didn't want to look at it. Then we argued over the years about being locked into them as a supplier and who owned the tank. Original company was absorbed by a new one. Now the gauge is broken. I guess it's their tank now


----------



## Bret Chase

Knots said:


> A large part of southern Maine burned to the ground in 1947, so that is a valid consideration.  Thanks.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fires_of_1947



it happened quite a few times besides '47...

as to the original question.... buy the tank, bury it.... and make sure it complies with the AHD....  your FD can be a bit of a PITA....


----------



## Bret Chase

DAKSY said:


> I asked my LP company if I could get an underground tank & they told me no problem. I just had to dig the hole & pour a concrete pad to support the tank & they'd install it. I decided to burn pellets for heat instead...



It's actually no to support the tank.. but to keep it in the ground....  a LPG tank is naturally buoyant and will breach the ground like a Seawolf class sub...


----------



## WiscWoody

I used to lease my tank but when I got my wood stove in 2010 I called my LP supplier and asked if I could buy the tank as used. They said sure, no problem and I bought it on the spot. It cost me $700 for the 500 gallon above ground tank and I have repainted it since. They fill tanks here to 85% and it has not caused any problems. It gets very cold up here, some nights can be close to -40F and the boiling or evaporation point of LP is -44F. A underground tank can give you the assurance that your tank won't go into a vacuum on the coldest of night but not many areas get that cold. Just where us fools live....


----------



## Knots

Just to follow up - I went in-ground.  1000 gallon.  Should be good for a while.

I like the new tupperware top they put on it.  What I don't like is the plumbing job they did...


----------



## WiscWoody

Knots said:


> Just to follow up - I went in-ground.  1000 gallon.  Should be good for a while.
> 
> I like the new tupperware top they put on it.  What I don't like is the plumbing job they did...
> View attachment 135590
> View attachment 135591


Whys that? What kind of soil do you have? It looks real light brown.


----------



## Bret Chase

WiscWoody said:


> Whys that? What kind of solid do you have? It looks real light brown.



it's only that light because the sun has been baking it and dried it out.  the soil comp here is more or less a loamy gravel with clay mixed in.  there are of course areas with pure gravel, areas with much more organic content.... and areas that are just clay... or granite.


----------



## Bret Chase

Knots said:


> Just to follow up - I went in-ground.  1000 gallon.  Should be good for a while.
> 
> I like the new tupperware top they put on it.  What I don't like is the plumbing job they did...
> View attachment 135590
> View attachment 135591



what's wrong with the plumbing? it looks like a typical lazy "gasman" job.  it would be better if the black pipe nipple was shorter, but otherwise nothing unusual about it.


----------



## TimfromMA

btuser said:


> I looked at it but be careful.  A lot of propane companies I talked to said they would only fill their tanks, which made shopping around for the best price impractical.  They will put in the tank for free but if you don't use enough they charge.


 Thank goodness oil companies don't work like that. I can buy oil from anyone and use as much or as little as I want and noone complains.


----------



## Knots

Bret Chase said:


> what's wrong with the plumbing? it looks like a typical lazy "gasman" job.  it would be better if the black pipe nipple was shorter, but otherwise nothing unusual about it.



Exactly.  If it was shorter then the tube wouldn't have had to take such a hard turn out of the top.  It doesn't leak, but it's not pretty...


----------



## Knots

WiscWoody said:


> Whys that? What kind of solid do you have? It looks real light brown.



The largest gravel pit in Maine is not too far away...


----------



## WiscWoody

TimfromMA said:


> Thank goodness oil companies don't work like that. I can buy oil from anyone and use as much or as little as I want and noone complains.


But who owns the oil tanks? The homeowner owns them I'd think. Oil tanks are prolly much less costly than LP tanks since oil isn't a pressurized gas that will expand to 270 times it's volume changing from a liquid to a gas.


----------



## TimfromMA

I own my oil tank.


----------



## Knots

Up until now, I had oil heat my whole life.  I won't miss all the space the tanks took up in the basement or the lingering smell after servicing, or the servicing for that matter.  Here's all my mechanicals in the new house (blue well tank on the right got cut off in the pic)
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 .


----------



## WiscWoody

Knots said:


> Exactly.  If it was shorter then the tube wouldn't have had to take such a hard turn out of the top.  It doesn't leak, but it's not pretty...


Put the cover on... Out of sight out of mind.


----------



## WiscWoody

Knots said:


> Up until now, I had oil heat my whole life.  I won't miss all the space the tanks took up in the basement or the lingering smell after servicing, or the servicing for that matter.  Here's all my mechanicals in the new house (blue well tank on the right got cut off in the pic)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 135691
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


That will be nice and they can make the equipment with a small or no footprint don't they!


----------



## Knots

WiscWoody said:


> Put the cover on... Out of sight out of mind.



Yeah - looks good from 20 yards...


----------



## Knots

WiscWoody said:


> That will be nice and they can make the equipment with a small or no footprint don't they!



Leaves more room for chairs around the wood stove!


----------



## potentialburner

In NC you can own or rent.  When I built my house in 1999 I rented from Amerigas and had it buried.  Several years later when Amerigas  started getting more  expensive with worse service,  I dug out my contract and found it had a clause allowing me to buy out the tank for a price that decreased every year.   By  now it was relatively cheap so I bought the tank and fired Amerigas. I've been shopping around ever since and saving money compared to Amerigas but propane is still crazy expensive now and I'm putting in a geothermal heat pump this year.   So I'll have a 500 gallon buried tank that I only use for cooking, fireplace, and hot water (and once the hot water heater reaches its replacement age, it will probably go electric too). 

I never had anyone refuse to fill a tank they didn't own, and I usually got a cheaper price as a tank owner.  I did have one company require me to have them inspect the tank (at no charge) before they would fill it.


----------



## WiscWoody

I wander how they inspect a underground tank?


----------



## potentialburner

WiscWoody said:


> I wander how they inspect a underground tank?



They do a pressure test. I'm not sure exactly what it entails, but they turned off all the pilot lights in the house first. I think they then pressurized the system and measured for leakage (pressure drop over a set time interval)?


----------



## Kaaiariz

Interesting question - not possible to go underground here with it - regulatory issues... 

topnotchcigar.com


----------



## velvetfoot

There are loads of underground propane tanks here.
I covered my well head with a fake rock.  Can you do that with the tupperware?
Here is an installation photo; there were some initial issues:


----------



## Knots

velvetfoot said:


> There are loads of underground propane tanks here.
> I covered my well head with a fake rock.  Can you do that with the tupperware?
> Here is an installation photo; there were some initial issues:



Hah!  Your well head has a body attached to it!

The only issue with doing that to the tupperware would be accommodating the venting feature.  See the slot in the front?


----------

