# Nest Thermostat



## thedak (Nov 1, 2012)

Anyone hook a Nest up to their pellet stove ?

I would really like to have control of my stove with my iPhone.

Fire the stove up about an hour before I get home, etc...

Keep my Harman XXV in Room Temp mode and wire the probe into this thermostat.

Any ideas ?


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## Paul Raz (Nov 1, 2012)

No idea, but I am interested as well. I am getting the Accentra insert installed and that would be great if it could control that. I will be closely watching this post.


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## thedak (Nov 1, 2012)

I have a Generation 2 Nest ordered.

We shall see...


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## Paul Raz (Nov 1, 2012)

Cool! Please let me know if it works. I'll order the same day.


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## lbcynya (Nov 1, 2012)

My guess...no. Don't believe the Nest is millivolt compatible. That and you still need a 24 volt power source to keep it going. Some day...


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## smwilliamson (Nov 1, 2012)

where there is a will there is a way. I have hooked up a NEST to an Enviro M55 Steel, and used the central system on auxiliary, so far works so good!


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## imacman (Nov 1, 2012)

Nice toy, but I can think of a lot of other things to do with $230, when a $35, 7 day programmable stat will do almost as much.

Just my 2cents.


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## smwilliamson (Nov 1, 2012)

imacman said:


> Nice toy, but I can think of a lot of other things to do with $230, when a $35, 7 day programmable stat will do almost as much.
> 
> Just my 2cents.


I won't learn....that's what my wife tells me anyway! doh! Maybe she's talking about me!


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## imacman (Nov 1, 2012)

smwilliamson said:


> I won't learn....that's what my wife tells me anyway! doh! Maybe she's talking about me!


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## Hellfire (Nov 1, 2012)

imacman said:


> Nice toy, but I can think of a lot of other things to do with $230, when a $35, 7 day programmable stat will do almost as much.
> 
> Just my 2cents.


 A Big Yes to that  +  cuts into Beer Funds


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## mepellet (Nov 2, 2012)

I'd also love to control my stove from the internet or my smartphone but I agree with what lbcynya said.


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## silverfox103 (Nov 2, 2012)

In a couple of years, I doubt the price will be $235, probably less than $100

Tom C.


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## dwizum (Nov 2, 2012)

You can do this yourself if handy with electronics for maybe $30. AVR or PIC, Ethernet interface, temperature probe, display, few lines of code, done. It's sinful that they're selling it for $230. I'm sure in a year or two we'll see half a dozen versions of this under $100 and in three or four years it'll be hard to buy a thermostat that DOESN'T talk to your smartphone.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Nov 2, 2012)

Hellfire said:


> A Big Yes to that + cuts into Beer Funds


 
Cutting into brew funds is criminal, where are the police when you really need them?


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## rickwai (Nov 2, 2012)

There is a easy way to make a setup to run any stove on a 24v tstat w/ a transformer and a relay. I did it w/ my p-38. I will try to draw up a diagrahm and post it.


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## thedak (Nov 2, 2012)

Thank You


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## nate379 (Nov 5, 2012)

What model will do same as the Nest?

All the internet controllable units I looked at where in the $175-300 range.



imacman said:


> Nice toy, but I can think of a lot of other things to do with $230, when a $35, 7 day programmable stat will do almost as much.
> 
> Just my 2cents.


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## twobraids (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm just entering the third week of using a Nest thermostat with a pellet stove as if it were a three stage furnace.  I've got a QuadraFire Santa Fe, I made some modifications to essentially automate the high/medium/low switch on the back.  My blog posting with the methods that I used and a schematic of my wiring: http://www.twobraids.com/2014/01/hacking-pellet-stove-to-work-with-nest.html

This system didn't work very well for the first week.  However, like the Nest manual says, give it a week to "learn" the requirements.  Suddenly on day eight, the Nest thermostat sudden seemed understand the pellet stove and it started working perfectly.  I can watch the thermostat turn the heat up and down throughout the day.  

Now I just need to automate loading and cleaning the stove.


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## Bioburner (Jan 14, 2014)

Nest was just bought by Google. 3.2 billion. Guess they want to know how you heat your home too.


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## twobraids (Jan 14, 2014)

Bioburner said:


> Nest was just bought by Google. 3.2 billion. Guess they want to know how you heat your home too.



A friend of mine works at Nest, and he's quite excited about the acquisition.  

As long as they don't put interrupt ads on my heat supply...


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## Bioburner (Jan 14, 2014)

Now don't you think if you power up your internet tool of choice that a message of "Did you fill your pellet stove today? Go to HD and buy their *&% pellets" wouldn't be right? I've been looking at a new coffee maker and now been getting banners of coffee makers for days.


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## SwineFlue (Jan 14, 2014)

twobraids said:


> Now I just need to automate loading and cleaning the stove.


Let me know when you get that part working!

Nice job on the Nest hookup... that ought to work on any "Control Box" Quad.   Are your room temperatures more consistent than before?


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## twobraids (Jan 15, 2014)

SwineFlue said:


> Are your room temperatures more consistent than before?



The yurt is a tough place to heat, the temperatures are volatile, after all it is just a fancy tent.  The temperatures are now more stable that during the first week of the Nest.  I can see that the Nest still claims to be in "learning mode" when it comes to learning how long it takes to raise the temperature.  So I'm hoping it will get better.  Right now, it is clearly better than if I use a regular thermostat and just leave the stove on high all the time.  I'm enjoying not having to set the heat level myself.  

Could it be even better?  Yes, I think the strategy that Nest is using will not ever get to the point of best possible heating for the yurt.  The Nest seems to favor staged startups and abrupt shutdowns.  In cold weather, I can see that starting on stage 1 isn't going to gain ground in heating, but Nest has to try before graduating to stage 2 and stage 3.  When it achieves its target, it abruptly shuts the pellet stove down.  The puts the yurt temperature into freefall.  Once Nest determines that it has to start the stove again, it has to go through the stages again even though stage 1 is demonstrably insufficient and lets the temperature fall even further. 

I'd like to try that reversed: start on high, get the room up to temperature quickly, then ramp down until a stable state is found.  If I can't find a way to get Nest to do this, then I will build another circuit that will do the staged shutdown automatically.  This is the TTL circuit that I refer to in my blog posting.


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## DBCOOPER (Jan 15, 2014)

twobraids said:


> The yurt is a tough place to heat, the temperatures are volatile, after all it is just a fancy tent.  The temperatures are now more stable that during the first week of the Nest.  I can see that the Nest still claims to be in "learning mode" when it comes to learning how long it takes to raise the temperature.  So I'm hoping it will get better.  Right now, it is clearly better than if I use a regular thermostat and just leave the stove on high all the time.  I'm enjoying not having to set the heat level myself.
> 
> Could it be even better?  Yes, I think the strategy that Nest is using will not ever get to the point of best possible heating for the yurt.  The Nest seems to favor staged startups and abrupt shutdowns.  In cold weather, I can see that starting on stage 1 isn't going to gain ground in heating, but Nest has to try before graduating to stage 2 and stage 3.  When it achieves its target, it abruptly shuts the pellet stove down.  The puts the yurt temperature into freefall.  Once Nest determines that it has to start the stove again, it has to go through the stages again even though stage 1 is demonstrably insufficient and lets the temperature fall even further.
> 
> I'd like to try that reversed: start on high, get the room up to temperature quickly, then ramp down until a stable state is found.  If I can't find a way to get Nest to do this, then I will build another circuit that will do the staged shutdown automatically.  This is the TTL circuit that I refer to in my blog posting.


Does your one switch reverting to normal operation just kill the power to the relays and then use the nc contacts for the three position switch?


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## chazcarr (Jan 15, 2014)

I have a regular wood burning stove, and I love the NEST for letting me know how the air circulates throughout the house.  I hope Google does not mess with it too much.  Here is their wiring specs page. 

As a side note, there is a Honeywell wireless out there for quite a bit less.


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## Realtor (Jan 15, 2014)

There is a honeywell 7 day programmable with wifi (and thus remote access) for about $99 at home depot.


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## twobraids (Jan 15, 2014)

DBCOOPER said:


> Does your one switch reverting to normal operation just kill the power to the relays and then use the nc contacts for the three position switch?



no, the manual by-pass switch just takes control of the heating level away from the relays and returns it to the switch on the back of the pellet stove.  In the schematic, follow the yellow wire from the bottom of the figure into the by-pass switch.  The relays continue to work: relay 1 continues to forward the "call signal" to the pellet stove, while relays 2 & 3 to go through the motions of working without any actual effect.


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## DBCOOPER (Jan 15, 2014)

Got it. Was hard to follow on my phone. There was a couple of things I was thinking about doing in that switch circuit but couldn't figure out how it worked from the service manual schematic and didn't want to mess with it during the heating season. I would like it to start on high for a period of time until the convection fan kicks in and then go to another position based on outside air temperature,while being able to override it manually. Looks quite doable.


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## SwineFlue (Jan 15, 2014)

twobraids said:


> The Nest seems to favor staged startups and abrupt shutdowns. In cold weather, I can see that starting on stage 1 isn't going to gain ground in heating, but Nest has to try before graduating to stage 2 and stage 3. When it achieves its target, it abruptly shuts the pellet stove down. The puts the yurt temperature into freefall. Once Nest determines that it has to start the stove again, it has to go through the stages again even though stage 1 is demonstrably insufficient and lets the temperature fall even further. I'd like to try that reversed: start on high, get the room up to temperature quickly, then ramp down until a stable state is found.



I agree that it seems backwards (for these stoves anyway).  Does the Nest have a cooling mode?   Just thinking as  I type... wondering if there might  be a way to use negative logic on your relays to fool a Nest's multi-stage cooling mode to heat quickly and then taper off...


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## BrotherBart (Jan 15, 2014)

I don't want the thermostat. I want three of their smoke/co detectors. Those things are da bomb.


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## smwilliamson (Jan 16, 2014)

Is t there a swing setting? I think over time if you keep resetting the temp NEST will learn to adjust the swing, yes?


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## smwilliamson (Jan 16, 2014)

Twobraids, brilliant.


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## RKS130 (Jan 16, 2014)

thedak said:


> I would really like to have control of my stove with my iPhone.



Install that baby and the government will have control as well.  No thanks, I'll pass!


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## Madcodger (Jan 16, 2014)

RKS130 said:


> Install that baby and the government will have control as well.  No thanks, I'll pass!


So there's this thing called the "internet"...  And not to alarm you, but you 're actually already using it!  

And having installed one of these stats for our regular HVAC, I assure you all is well (and it saves us money).  And no tinfoil hats required.


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## RKS130 (Jan 16, 2014)

Madcodger said:


> So there's this thing called the "internet"...  And not to alarm you, but you 're actually already using it!
> 
> And having installed one of these stats for our regular HVAC, I assure you all is well (and it saves us money).  And no tinfoil hats required.




Yes .   .   . I use it.  BUT .   .   . my life is not controlled by it.  I own no devices which are controlled via the internet and never will.  Do a little reading (on the Internet if you must) about the so called Smart Grid, Smart Homes and the like.  Stocked up on old fashioned light bulbs too!


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## Madcodger (Jan 16, 2014)

RKS130 said:


> Yes .   .   . I use it.  BUT .   .   . my life is not controlled by it.  I own no devices which are controlled via the internet and never will.  Do a little reading (on the Internet if you must) about the so called Smart Grid, Smart Homes and the like.  Stocked up on old fashioned light bulbs too!


Have one (a smart home).  Love it.  Had another before this one, too.  Probably no sense debating all that on this thread, as those who believe the government wants to control them have made up their minds.

But the Nest works well and could likely be adapted to properly control many pellet stoves, for those who care to try.


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## twobraids (Jan 16, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> Is t there a swing setting? I think over time if you keep resetting the temp NEST will learn to adjust the swing, yes?



Nest has taken a very Apple-like approach to consumer hardware - do not pester the owner with confusing details or settings.  I would assume that Nest has a "swing", but it is not a setting that is exposed to the end user in anyway.  I suspect that the "swing" is one of the thing that  Nest "learns".  Time will tell, going to give Nest until mid Feb to became educated.  If it isn't doing what I want, then I'll proceed with the next version of this project: automatic staged shutdown.


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## smwilliamson (Jan 16, 2014)

twobraids said:


> Nest has taken a very Apple-like approach to consumer hardware - do not pester the owner with confusing details or settings.  I would assume that Nest has a "swing", but it is not a setting that is exposed to the end user in anyway.  I suspect that the "swing" is one of the thing that  Nest "learns".  Time will tell, going to give Nest until mid Feb to became educated.  If it isn't doing what I want, then I'll proceed with the next version of this project: automatic staged shutdown.


Just curious...couldn't you just leave the unit on high and let nest do its work with the unit running at maximum efficiency?  I mean, the unit was designed to run on a tstat anyway. Is it that you seek the modulation of a quieter running stove as the yurt achieves the set point?


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## John Ackerly (Jan 16, 2014)

Great thread. I should have figured someone would find a way to hook the Next up to their stove.  Harman was supposed to come out with a stove that connects to your iphone.  What happened to it?  Some European manufacturer has had a iphone compatible stove for a while.  The best thing would be for a device to be able to monitor efficiency, and show you how quickly your pellet stove can lose efficiency if you don't clean it. This technology is on horizon. I love my Nest, not because it learns my behavior but because it datalogs how much I use the furnace and compares it to others in Maryland.  I'm old fashioned and still in the habit of just turning the furnace off completely at night and when we are at work during the day.  Saves a lot more money than the Nest ever could by learning when I get up, come home, etc.


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## twobraids (Jan 16, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> Just curious...couldn't you just leave the unit on high and let nest do its work with the unit running at maximum efficiency?



running on high all the time means frequent cycling restarts and shut downs:

short runs seem to accumulate clinkers very quickly while long runs do not
each restart requires 500W of power to start the burning  for about 10 minutes - unacceptable when I'm running on battery power
wide fast temperature swings in the yurt are uncomfortable and hard on my wooden musical instruments
I've found while running it manually, running on low for many hours offers more consistent temperature with less cleaning.


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## Madcodger (Jan 17, 2014)

A call to Nest support might be in order.  The Nest does a very good job of figuring out your system in terms of figuring out how long that system takes to bring a home up to, or BACK up to, the desired temp - and that is what a "swing setting" (or temperature differential) is manually trying to address.  So, while you can't set that manually with a Nest, it's because it is figuring things out with more complicated calculations on its own.

I replaced a high quality programmable stat with the Nest for our regular heat pump, and the savings were incredible in both winter and summer, largely because of the way the Nest minimized things like use of auxillary (emergency / backup) heat strips in winter and turned off the compressor while still running the fan in summer.  A very smart little device...

BUT it does not have a setting for pellet stoves...  If it were me, I might use the gas furnace setting...  But a call to Nest might be the best idea, to ask their opinion.


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## twobraids (Jan 17, 2014)

Madcodger said:


> A call to Nest support might be in order.  ...  But a call to Nest might be the best idea, to ask their opinion.



I have spoken with technical support at Nest and my situation is outside their support script.  I was basically told that they can help me with officially supported equipment, but they're not allowing their support people to give opinions or anything but rudimentary assistance to non-standard installations.  I would imagine that this is legal liability issue and understand the policy.  I accept that I'm blazing my own path here.  



Madcodger said:


> The Nest does a very good job of figuring out your system in terms of figuring out how long that system takes to bring a home up to, or BACK up to, the desired temp - and that is what a "swing setting" (or temperature differential) is manually trying to address. So, while you can't set that manually with a Nest, it's because it is figuring things out with more complicated calculations on its own.



I can confirm in the settings for the Nest that it is still in "learning mode" on "Time to Temp".  I'm patient, I'll give it time to figure things out.  If it doesn't, then I'll hack together another method of accomplishing what I want.  It's all fun.

Something that I should say is that I'm not at all disappointed with the performance of Nest or my adapter.  While it is not running perfectly, it is running without my constant attention.  That's a win for me.


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## Madcodger (Jan 17, 2014)

Bummer that they can't help, Twobraids, but I can also understand their stance.  I'm still thinking that telling it you have a gas furnace is the closest you'll come to getting the settings somewhat close, but that's only speculation.

Kudos to you for trying it.  I'm planning to look for a 3rd stove at end of season b/c my Whit in the office can't use a stat and it's a pellet hog because of it (it will move to an unused fireplace as a "cold days only" stove.  Will definitely follow in your footsteps re use of a Nest with the new one, as my Quad requires their blasted proprietary stat (biggest downside to it!).  Can't say enough about how well the Nest performs for our heat pump.  Good luck, and please keep us posted.


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## twobraids (Jan 18, 2014)

Madcodger said:


> Bummer that they can't help, Twobraids, but I can also understand their stance.



When i called them, I set my expectations low.  So I wasn't disappointed, it was a longshot.



Madcodger said:


> I'm still thinking that telling it you have a gas furnace is the closest you'll come to getting the settings somewhat close, but that's only speculation.



"Forced air gas furnace" is the setting that I chose from the beginning.


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## SwineFlue (Feb 6, 2014)

twobraids said:


> I can confirm in the settings for the Nest that it is still in "learning mode" on "Time to Temp". I'm patient, I'll give it time to figure things out. If it doesn't, then I'll hack together another method of accomplishing what I want. It's all fun.
> Something that I should say is that I'm not at all disappointed with the performance of Nest or my adapter. While it is not running perfectly, it is running without my constant attention. That's a win for me.



Has 3 more weeks of "learning" improved its control of your stove?


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## twobraids (Feb 14, 2014)

sorry for the delay in responding - whomever arranged to have an entire year's worth of weather drama compressed into two weeks is on my s**t list.  We had twenty-eight inches of snow on top of blooming crocus last week - I spent a frantic forty-eight hours trying to keep my greenhouses from being crushed (http://goo.gl/Kwzrhe).  That was followed immediately by an ice storm, which stressed a huge old tree that still is threatening to crush my home (http://goo.gl/vgU6b2).  This week is all that snow melting at once and creating a flood.  Too much drama for ten days...

Now about that thermostat.  No, it has not gotten better at running the pellet stove.  Again, I have to say that while I might be able to run it better manually, I'd rather have this less that optimal solution just so I don't have to think about it.   

When I have some free time after all the weather crisis is over, I plan on designing a circuit that will implement a phased shut down rather than the phased ramp up the Nest is doing.  I will switch the Nest to single stage heat and let my circuit control the three stages.  

I was in Silicon Valley just before the storms and I spoke with an employee at Nest over coffee.  He suggested that the normal use of three stage heat doesn't translate well into simple high/medium/low.  As I surmised in an earlier post, stage 3 is "emergency" heat - usually electric and the stage that folks want as a last resort.  For my application, I want it as the first resort, not the last.

It is unlikely that Nest is going to add a yurt-with-pellet-stove option to the algorithm, so I will augment my current system with some more circuitry.  I'll post my results, but it won't be until later in March.  I'm lecturing in Nashville next weekend and then spending some time visiting friends in the south.


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## SwineFlue (Feb 15, 2014)

Sorry to hear about your weather issues.   Those weathermen never schedule these things for when it's convenient, do they?



twobraids said:


> I was in Silicon Valley just before the storms and I spoke with an employee at Nest over coffee. He suggested that the normal use of three stage heat doesn't translate well into simple high/medium/low. As I surmised in an earlier post, stage 3 is "emergency" heat - usually electric and the stage that folks want as a last resort. For my application, I want it as the first resort, not the last.



Your ideas/implementation/issue got me thinking again about something I wanted to do last season.   The way I use my Castile, Medium is my normal/default setting and I'll use Low or High as needed based on temperatures.   I wanted it to automatically select the mode based only on room temperature.  I think I can see a way to do it now.   Maybe you could adapt it to your needs:

Can your Nest do both heating and cooling automatically?  (ie heat in the morning, then cool in the afternoon without operator intervention?)  If so, think of the stove's High as "_heat_", and Low as "_cool_" and wire up your Nest appropriately.   When the room temperature is cold, the Nest turns on _heat _which sets the stove to High.   When it passes above the heat temperature, the Nest turns it off and the stove goes to Medium.  If the room continues to rise above the cool temperature, the Nest says _cool _and the stove goes to Low.  Does this make any sense?  It needs work for your situation: it doesn't drive your relay 1 to turn off the Call for Heat, for instance.  Something to think about during your travels...

Hope the weather down south treats you better!


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## smwilliamson (Feb 17, 2014)

twobraids, I just completed my Nest hookup using my Enviro M55 insert. Really all I have is an on/off capability. I'm using the TSTAT conenction on the stove set to the Auto/OFF function. On one side, its great cause what I really wanted to do was to be able to turn the shop stove on and off without having to rush down to the store in the early AM to get the place warm. So on that end its great. Also great, cause at the end of the day when everyone leaves, the Nest will automatically shut itself down...or I can do it from my phone. Down side...while it heats just fine, when it goes in to OFF mode after set point is reached, we get a wicked climate cold setback. Temps in the office drop about 14 degrees before the unit ramps back up. I'm two weeks into the learning but it just takes so long for the stove to get up to temp. If run the stove during the day on Hi/Low its better. We only get swings of about 4-5 degrees from satisfy to call but the unit wont shut down at the end of the day. Unfortunately, Enviro doesn't give me a lot of wires to tap in to to override or control that function. I'm thinking I may need to make my own control box altogether. You seem to have more skills than I in electrical engineering...I'd be curious to chat with you at some point once you start making more circuitry. Keep me posted.

Here is my thread I started about this: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...n-millivolt-stoves.114018/page-4#post-1610594


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## Wilbur Feral (Oct 25, 2015)

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I've just found a 1 year old Quadrafire Santa Fe insert to replace my old Whitfield Quest for the basement office (no worries, fellow Whitfield lovers - I'll move the old girl to another location - just need auto ignite).  Anyway...  *Has anyone made more progress on hooking up a smart thermostat to their pellet stove, other than "on/off"?*

I am a big fan of Nest for our regular HVAC.  It saves us a bundle, even when we just run it on a regular schedule without sensing whether we're home or not, as it controls the use of emergency heat very well on "max savings" mode.  But that's exactly the opposite of what one wants for a pellet stove, as TwoBraids discovered, as we want the stove to start on high, then back off and just maintain temps.  I have my eye on an Ecobee, but need to read up on them.  Anyway, has anyone played around with this more, and advanced the art a bit beyond just turning the stove on and off, which Is of course simple to achieve.


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## ddoyle98321 (Oct 25, 2015)

Wilbur Feral said:


> Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I've just found a 1 year old Quadrafire Santa Fe insert to replace my old Whitfield Quest for the basement office (no worries, fellow Whitfield lovers - I'll move the old girl to another location - just need auto ignite).  Anyway...  *Has anyone made more progress on hooking up a smart thermostat to their pellet stove, other than "on/off"?*
> 
> I am a big fan of Nest for our regular HVAC.  It saves us a bundle, even when we just run it on a regular schedule without sensing whether we're home or not, as it controls the use of emergency heat very well on "max savings" mode.  But that's exactly the opposite of what one wants for a pellet stove, as TwoBraids discovered, as we want the stove to start on high, then back off and just maintain temps.  I have my eye on an Ecobee, but need to read up on them.  Anyway, has anyone played around with this more, and advanced the art a bit beyond just turning the stove on and off, which Is of course simple to achieve.


Yes. Check out Twobraids blog where he connects his Santa Fe to a Nest:

http://www.twobraids.com/2014/01/hacking-pellet-stove-to-work-with-nest.html


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## Wilbur Feral (Oct 26, 2015)

Right...  So...  I reference TwoBraids and his work, and even went through his conference presentation with more info than his blog, but he also notes the problems he was seeking to overcome, such as lack of starting on high and abrupt shutoff of stove rather than gradual backing down to maintenance burn (thus using ignitor more).  I'm wondering if others have done additional work since, even if not with a Nest.


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## Mikeb01876 (Dec 3, 2017)

smwilliamson said:


> where there is a will there is a way. I have hooked up a NEST to an Enviro M55 Steel, and used the central system on auxiliary, so far works so good!


Could you elaborate on your approach to make the m55 work with the nest? I have an empress fpi and I want it to be my primary source of heat and my home heating furnace be the secondary. I will run the stove in the high low function so it doesn’t turn it on and off. Last thing I want to do is fry the board. Thanks for any input


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## RzRzRzR (Dec 29, 2017)

I got it to work. Diagram below.


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## RzRzRzR (Dec 29, 2017)

thedak said:


> Anyone hook a Nest up to their pellet stove ?
> 
> I would really like to have control of my stove with my iPhone.
> 
> ...




See attached.


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