# Garn 1500 Arrived - Can't afford to hook it up



## rvtgr8 (May 22, 2008)

I spent months perusing this forum and reading on gasification boilers before deciding on the Garn 1500.  I have basic plumbing experience and helped put in the radiant system and propane boiler that currently heat my home.  The Garn was obviously pricey, but seemed worth the investment after doing my research.  We live in a forested area of Colorado at 7,300 feet of elevation.  Propane is almost too expensive to keep the house warm and wood is our fuel of choice in the winter.    The company that delivered the Garn to us wants $8000 to install it.  We don't have it.  I am forced to do the work myself because the cost is prohibitive.

My question is what books might some of you recommend to me on design of the system.  Again, I know the basic components that I will need to hook the thing up, but I have one advanced concept in mind.  I do not want to completely abandon the propane system.  If for some reason, we had to be away for an extended period of time  were unable to fire the Garn and the house temp dropped below a certain level, we would like for the propane to back up the system.   

I am thinking I should just offer the installer cash for the set of drawings he prepared so I can work it out based on the agreed plan, but I am not sure he will go for it.  He has me over a boiler.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Robert


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## SteveJ (May 22, 2008)

Robert,

I live off-grid in Colorado at 9000ft. My Seton wood boier is hooked in series with my propane boiler and the propane boiler is an automatic backup.

The setup is pretty simple and there were only two tees into the existing system (not including the DHW preheat).

Take a look at this thread at the bottom of p.1 onto p.2 https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/12118/P15/

Also, the basic hookup diagram is at http://www.thermavolt.com/page31.html

There are many knowledgeable people on this site that will advise you.

Please read and review and proceed with what you are comfortable with.

My wood boiler was hooked into my existing system for about $2500 that included expert installation and all parts - pex, pump, aquastat, etc.

After seeing it done (and even helping), I could probably do it now. But, I am glad I had a certified boiler expert do it at the time.

Steve


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## Eric Johnson (May 22, 2008)

I'm sure you can handle it, Robert. Nothing very complex and the simpler, the better.

You might want to consider not doing the propane connection thing now, but getting the Garn up and running and then adding the backup later. That wouldn't be hard if you planned it properly and it would save some immediate cost. Another suggestion is to get as much stuff as you can on Ebay. The only catch is that you need to know exactly what you need before ordering.

Maybe you can provide a diagram or sketch of how your existing system is set up. We can take it from there. You may have detailed it in the past, but if so, I've forgotten.


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## Rick Stanley (May 22, 2008)

Robert,

I have a Garn 2000 ordered. How did yours come? Was it on a low-bed or a flat-bed? How did you unload it? I'm thinking a big hoe or loader from the excavator guy. I guess rigging companies are used at times because it can be hard to know exactly when delivery will happen to have equipment standing by, which can be costly.

Rick


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## free75degrees (May 22, 2008)

wow, I need to go into the Garn installation business!  Good luck, just take your time, you have all summer.


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## rvtgr8 (May 22, 2008)

To everyone who has responded to this post so far, thank you.  My wife and I were staggered by this development and have been disheartened since.  I was prepared to pay up to a couple of extra thousand for the peace of mind to have it done with a level of expertise by an installer.  But heck, with your kind responses, we are both feeling a lot better this morning.  There is a glimmer of light coming from the boiler room and it is much appreciated.

Steve J

Thanks for the illustrations.  They were helpful in they confirmed my basic installation scheme.  I'd gladly pay $2,500 today for the work, but I will just have to roll up my sleeve and do more homework to get this done.

Eric

I am in the process of drawing up my existing propane system and will share it just as soon as I can.  It is pretty simple and to be quite honest, if I had it to do over again, I would have done a little better job with some of my zones in terms of length etc.

Ricks

When we first decided to order, we were under the impression that the installer would take delivery at his site and then bring it up from Colorado Springs.  We did not have to do anything special.  Then, the price on delivery went up even after we had agreed on a price and closed the deal.  We gave that extra because we know that diesel prices are killing these carriers.  Then the plan changed and the Garn was to be delivered here on a lowboy.  I have a big JD 500 backhoe so I thought it would be pretty easy especially with the installers now saying that they would be here when it arrived to help.  Of course the installer decided at the last minute that he did not want to be here because he had business elsewhere. The Garn arrived on a flatbed semi.  It was too high for me to get my bucket over the top.  I had to get pretty creative, but managed to put some forks on my bucket and get under it.  Of course the forks would have never been able to hold the 3,900 submarine so I chained the end of the forks back over the top of the load and down onto the arms to move the weight back onto the loader.  As soon as I got it too the ground the driver was gone with the wind.  My wife and I managed to get it into the boiler room, but it was slow and tedious.  I think perhaps I was an Egyptian pyramid builder in a previous life (of course I'm kidding) because where there's a will and a couple of simple machines, there is a way.

Free75degrees

I wish a lot of people would go into the Garn installation business.  It might just bring prices back down to Earth.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (May 22, 2008)

I paid for my installation 100% . . . well 'cept I put up the building it went in and laid the T-pex myself. I say remeber the schmuck that gave you the 8k bid come wintertime when the reality has set in for him that, even though inflation is raging, people will only pay inflated prices for things they absolutly NEED. And clearly you don't need his help with this.

Hopefully GARN is some help . . . GW was basically NO help after the sale. But there are enough people here that have done this stuff, so you'll be fine.

On the down side. . . it's gonna be back in the 80's this week, so I'd be more concerned with whether the AC is working than the heat :roll:


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## Eric Johnson (May 22, 2008)

I'm hoping that heaterman, Father John and TCaldwell will be able to walk you through the installation steps, as well as help you design your piping layout in a Garn-specific fashion. If not, I know the rest of the gang will pitch in. I think the biggest challenge is probably sizing your flat plate heat exchanger, but I think nofossil is working on that as we speak. I also think that Dectra Corp. should cough up some piping diagrams and other assistance, considering what you paid for the boiler.


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## bjleau (May 22, 2008)

I'm looking at a 2000 and when talking to my dealer in MN and Dectra he/they were telling me about the book that they give you before it is delivered that has all sorts of setup/hookup info etc....  Did you get this? Talk to you Dealer or call Dectra. While your at it tell them what an A$$ your dealer was, they seem to be great guys (slow to return Phone calls though) and I'm sure that they would be plenty embarassed about the whole situation.   

Brian


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## heaterman (May 22, 2008)

rvtgr8 said:
			
		

> I spent months perusing this forum and reading on gasification boilers before deciding on the Garn 1500.  I have basic plumbing experience and helped put in the radiant system and propane boiler that currently heat my home.  The Garn was obviously pricey, but seemed worth the investment after doing my research.  We live in a forested area of Colorado at 7,300 feet of elevation.  Propane is almost too expensive to keep the house warm and wood is our fuel of choice in the winter.    The company that delivered the Garn to us wants $8000 to install it.  We don't have it.  I am forced to do the work myself because the cost is prohibitive.
> 
> My question is what books might some of you recommend to me on design of the system.  Again, I know the basic components that I will need to hook the thing up, but I have one advanced concept in mind.  I do not want to completely abandon the propane system.  If for some reason, we had to be away for an extended period of time  were unable to fire the Garn and the house temp dropped below a certain level, we would like for the propane to back up the system.
> 
> ...



I'd be happy to lend a hand or do some drawing for you. I have a bunch of basic designs on file and I'm sure that I can get one that's right for you. I'll keep it simple and as inexpensive as possible but not cut any corners. That doesn't work with hydronic heat.
Send me a PM with the following info:

BTU input of your current boiler 
How far from the Garn to your current mechanical room
What kind of piping is on the propane boiler Steel? Copper?
What type of heat emitters are in the house? Baseboard? Radiant floor?
What accessories do you already have as far as pex going from the Garn to your boiler?

You won't be sorry you bought the Garn. I haven't found anything yet that performs as well.


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## rvtgr8 (May 23, 2008)

Heaterman,

Your offer is both kind and generous.  I am in the process now of talking with my county building inspector to ascertain whether my Garn can be placed in my garage if I convert it to to strictly a boiler room.  This may not fly and so the answers to many of your expert questions on placement may not be answered until I get his decision.  When I do, I would be grateful for your advice.  This forum, and the people who regularly frequent it are awesome.

Robert


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## deerefanatic (May 28, 2008)

STOP! Hold Everything!!

You need to get your hands on "Pumping Away" by Dan Holohan.... And maybe "Primary/Secondary Made Easy" (also by Dan).. That man has a way of making hydronics so simple, your first grader could go to work installing garns and making the $8k that they wanted! 

You really need to do it right and set up a primary secondary system.. You can interface your propane boiler, or anything else to it for heat (solar panels, coal boiler, you name it) and add additional loads easily as well.. more expensive, yes... But sooo much better in the long run....

On second thought, read every Dan Holohan book you can get your hands on!


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## heaterman (May 28, 2008)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> STOP! Hold Everything!!
> 
> You need to get your hands on "Pumping Away" by Dan Holohan.... And maybe "Primary/Secondary Made Easy" (also by Dan).. That man has a way of making hydronics so simple, your first grader could go to work installing garns and making the $8k that they wanted!
> 
> ...



Dan is a very dear friend and I couldn't agree more with what you said. If you get on his website ( www.heatinghelp.com ) you can order all of his books right there. They are worth their weight in gold. If you ever get a chance to attend one of his seminars, don't pass it up. Even if you are only going to do your own system and never pick up a pipe wrench again, it'll be the best money you can spend.


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## rvtgr8 (May 28, 2008)

All off you are such kind people to offer so many valuable solutions.  I have not hear back from the heating contractor as of yet so I believe I will be using even more help here.  I will try once more tomorrow.  I purchased the recommended book tonight.

Robert


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## deerefanatic (May 28, 2008)

I got Dan's books through interlibrary loan. But, to be fair, I have a near-photographic memory so I only really need to read them once anyhow.......

Definitely a good investment I should say..


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## rvtgr8 (Jun 16, 2008)

I contacted my install contractor and offered him some money for his drawings.  He seemed genuinely confused that I would think I could have gotten this done for the The couple thousand I had set away for the work.  He tells me his parts alone come to over $5000.  He wants to come out here on the forum and see what other people are thinking.  I like the guy, but if this is $5000 for parts alone, even with me doing the work, I'm dead in the water.   The county has made me eliminate my garage on the installation that I have in mind and so I have had to build a carport on top of everything else.  I hope the next winter isn't as tough as this hookup.

Robert


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## Redox (Jun 16, 2008)

$5000 in material to hook up a boiler?  To an existing system?  Something's not adding up here.  What else do you have to buy besides pipe and maybe a couple heat exchangers and circulators?  I thought the Garn was supposed to be simpler...

Chris


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## bjleau (Jun 16, 2008)

rvtgr8 said:
			
		

> I contacted my install contractor and offered him some money for his drawings.  He seemed genuinely confused that I would think I could have gotten this done for the The couple thousand I had set away for the work.  He tells me his parts alone come to over $5000.  He wants to come out here on the forum and see what other people are thinking.  I like the guy, but if this is $5000 for parts alone, even with me doing the work, I'm dead in the water.   The county has made me eliminate my garage on the installation that I have in mind and so I have had to build a carport on top of everything else.  I hope the next winter isn't as tough as this hookup.
> 
> Robert



Did you get a parts list with the bid? If you didn't ask for one that is itemized. The two Garns that I have seen looked extremely easy to set up:Garn + insulation, pump, pipe, insulated pipe, pipe fittings, heat exchanger, shut offs and an indoor fill and boiler chemicals, the electric,  and one had  run wire so you could see the temp of the garn in the house....

With all the Big boiler brains on the forum I'm sure you could do it on your own... Did you ever get the Garn setup book, they had diagrams etc... in there?

Brian


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 16, 2008)

If you could post a parts list, Robert, it would make analyzing the validity of the quote you got much easier. Large-diameter pex can be expensive, especially if it's insulated properly. So the distance of the run from the Garn to your existing system is an important piece of information. 1.5-inch valves and other fittings can run up the bill pretty quick, too. And, what are you tapping into? What kind of heat exchanger do you need?


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## heaterman (Jun 18, 2008)

Hey rtvgr8, Are you making any progress with your install?


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## foxt (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm new to the forum, and am considering a GARN  1500 (in addition to an EKO 60 and a TARM solo 60).    I can't find much info on what's required for a GARN install (probably need to talk to the dealer).   This thread caught my attention due to what seems like a costly setup for the GARN?

I'm retrofitting an existing oil-fired system that consists of mixed radiant and baseboard .  Baseboards are fed in home runs off of the primary loop from the boiler, radiant is fed in home runs off of a secondary loop with lower temps in that loop controlled by a Tekmar that cycles a circulator between primary and secondary loops.   I'll probably keep the oil-fired for backup for at least the first season, so I want to integrate the wood and oil systens.

For those of you who have installed a GARN, do I understand correctly that, as an unpressurized system, I'm piping the hot water (with chemicals) from the GARN integral storage to a hx that I can hook up either in parallel or series with my primary loop off of the oil-fired?  Like others have said, I should just need a pump, some valves, the hx, nothing fancy, right?


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## Jim K in PA (Jun 19, 2008)

foxt said:
			
		

> I'm new to the forum, and am considering a GARN  1500 (in addition to an EKO 60 and a TARM solo 60).    I can't find much info on what's required for a GARN install (probably need to talk to the dealer).   This thread caught my attention due to what seems like a costly setup for the GARN?
> 
> I'm retrofitting an existing oil-fired system that consists of mixed radiant and baseboard .  Baseboards are fed in home runs off of the primary loop from the boiler, radiant is fed in home runs off of a secondary loop with lower temps in that loop controlled by a Tekmar that cycles a circulator between primary and secondary loops.   I'll probably keep the oil-fired for backup for at least the first season, so I want to integrate the wood and oil systens.
> 
> For those of you who have installed a GARN, do I understand correctly that, as an unpressurized system, I'm piping the hot water (with chemicals) from the GARN integral storage to a hx that I can hook up either in parallel or series with my primary loop off of the oil-fired?  Like others have said, I should just need a pump, some valves, the hx, nothing fancy, right?



foxt - this should probably be a seperate thread so we don't hijack rvtgr8, but you can integrate your existing oil furnace without a HX.  I am going to depressurize mine and run the furnace in series with the GARN.  The choice is yours.  The install of a GARN is not any different than any other gasser wih storage, except that the unit itself is quite large, and needs to be enclosed in an insulated structure.

Call the folks at This Warm House (they are your local dealer).  David is working on my quote right now for a WHS 2000.


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## heaterman (Jun 19, 2008)

Jim K in PA said:
			
		

> foxt said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Buy it now. From what I understand, steel prices are forcing another increase of about $500 in July


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## rvtgr8 (Jun 19, 2008)

I want to again thank all of you who have expressed concern over my situation with my Garn.  I am running for County Commissioner on top of now having to build another garage and reading all of the excellent books that have been suggested.  I know that I can get this all done, because of this great resource. This forum is the only bright spot in my Garn story so far.  I know that it is a great system. I just needed to learn a bit more about the installation before leaping in.  Heck, what's an Everglade without a few few large and toothy amphibious reptiles?

Robert


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## heaterman (Jun 19, 2008)

rvtgr8 said:
			
		

> I want to again thank all of you who have expressed concern over my situation with my Garn.  I am running for County Commissioner on top of now having to build another garage and reading all of the excellent books that have been suggested.  I know that I can get this all done, because of this great resource. This forum is the only bright spot in my Garn story so far.  I know that it is a great system. I just needed to learn a bit more about the installation before leaping in.  Heck, what's an Everglade without a few few large and toothy amphibious reptiles?
> 
> Robert



You got Everglades in the Colorado Rockies?..........Maybe there is something to this Global Warming crap.


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## MrEd (Jun 19, 2008)

$5K sounds awfully high to me to, just for parts. I am just wading into my install this summer, and I have been surprised by how expensive some things are, but even so, I am think my parts, piping, controls etc will only come in around $1500 - that doesn't include storage or the chimney however.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 3, 2009)

I have returned to share the continuing saga of the Garn 1500 that refused to be installed.  On a positive note, I have read Pumping Away by Dan Holohan.  It was very helpful and much more useful than California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's seldom read, Pump Your Way into Politics. I lost my race for County Commissioner, which dominated all my spare time for over six months.  Now I have returned to the Garn.  The following picture should elicit a few tears from some or at least a few hardy chortles from others.





Of course, it is now the dead of winter here in Colorado and the work should be made all the more interesting by the cold.  The game plan is to decommission my garage and build a new one adjacent to the house next spring.  I have to build a containment area around the Garn (one can ill afford to have Garn running around loose) and fill it full of vermiculite. This containment area will be built in what was the stall closest to the interior of the house (it is an attached garage).  I then am required to put up an additional wall between what was the second and first stalls of the garage.  My wife wants this area to be a hot tub area heated by the Garn.  I actually will be required to provide a firewall between the boiler room and the second stall to protect any soakers from a raging fire for a full 20 minutes.  I already have a firewall between the the garage and the interior as per code.
I am being required to eliminate the overhead doors.  I must replace them with walls in front of the Garn and an egress door in front of the hot tub.  I hope all of this is making sense.
I have continued my quest to determine why my installer wanted $8K to hook this up.  Even though I believe the man to be a decent person, I think the fact that he had not done one before and the fact that he had to drive 140 miles back and forth to where I live was a huge cost.  He never shared the breakdown nor his design and so I hope to accomplish it myself over the next few weeks.  Oh yeah and I also need to beg and plead for your generous offers of advice.
The first question comes about my existing propane boiler.  My plumber had never heard of any books about pumping anything in any direction and so the system has the water pumping toward and not away from the boiler.  Should I rectify this while I am at all of this?


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## leaddog (Jan 3, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ball-Valve-1-1-2-x-1-1-2-Brass-Full-Port_W0QQitemZ110245559491QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110245559491&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1205|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318
check this link out for valves. I bought some from him and he combined shipping so it made them really resonable. I think he has listed 1-1/2 and 1-1/4. I've bought alot of stuff on ebay and if you aren't in a hurry you can lower your costs of insallation alot. good luck and keep in touch here and you will get some great advise and we are all cheering for you 
leaddog


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## Redox (Jan 4, 2009)

AAAH, the saga continues!  It looks sad sitting there next to the recyclables. Seems to me it should be loose in a field somewhere!   ;-) 

It sounds like you have run afoul of a lot of red tape.  I suspect that your installer knew this was liable to be a problem and quoted accordingly.  Some jurisdictions can be a real bear to deal with.

It sounds like it would be a lot easier to meet code by putting the Garn somewhere other than the garage.  Any room in the back yard?

To answer your question about the circulator; they are traditionally put in the return line to the boiler, usually because the water is cooler.  It doesn't have to be there, but that minimizes the possibility of other problems like cavitation.  YMMV.

Chris


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## leaddog (Jan 4, 2009)

Redox said:
			
		

> It sounds like it would be a lot easier to meet code by putting the Garn somewhere other than the garage.  Any room in the back yard?
> 
> Chris



If you have the room a 20ft shipping container makes a great boiler room. They are quite cheap and can be sided and trimmed to look nice and moved if you want. They are made of steel, fire proof, waterproof, large enough for the boiler and some wood. Some garns have been done this way for commertial use. I would think that would be one of the cheapest ways to install and insulate a garn.
leaddog


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 4, 2009)

rvtgr8 said:
			
		

> I have returned to share the continuing saga of the Garn 1500 that refused to be installed.  On a positive note, I have read Pumping Away by Dan Holohan.  It was very helpful and much more useful than California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's seldom read, Pump Your Way into Politics.



Welcome back, and thanks for posting up about your situation.  You came up in another GARN thread a couple of weeks ago.



> I lost my race for County Commissioner, which dominated all my spare time for over six months.  Now I have returned to the Garn.  The following picture should elicit a few tears from some or at least a few hardy chortles from others.



Sad to see it looking so cold  :-/ 



> Of course, it is now the dead of winter here in Colorado and the work should be made all the more interesting by the cold.  The game plan is to decommission my garage and build a new one adjacent to the house next spring.  I have to build a containment area around the Garn (one can ill afford to have Garn running around loose) and fill it full of vermiculite. This containment area will be built in what was the stall closest to the interior of the house (it is an attached garage).  I then am required to put up an additional wall between what was the second and first stalls of the garage.  My wife wants this area to be a hot tub area heated by the Garn.  I actually will be required to provide a firewall between the boiler room and the second stall to protect any soakers from a raging fire for a full 20 minutes.  I already have a firewall between the the garage and the interior as per code.



Using the attached garage will eliminate the need for a trench for underground piping, which I imagine would be impossible to dig in your area until some time around the 4th of July.

Can you use the demising/fire code wall between the GARN and the hot tub area as the insulation containment wall?




> I am being required to eliminate the overhead doors.  I must replace them with walls in front of the Garn and an egress door in front of the hot tub.  I hope all of this is making sense.



Your description is making sense, but the code justification is not.  Why on earth are they making you remove the roll-up doors?  Government run amok, again.



> I have continued my quest to determine why my installer wanted $8K to hook this up.  Even though I believe the man to be a decent person, I think the fact that he had not done one before and the fact that he had to drive 140 miles back and forth to where I live was a huge cost.  He never shared the breakdown nor his design and so I hope to accomplish it myself over the next few weeks.



There is good information here by the bucketful.  Check the sticky at the top of this forum regarding primary/secondary pumping for boilers.  Also, get Dan Holohan's other book called "Primary-secondary pumping made easy" if you don't already have a copy.  Also, if you have not already done so, go over to www.garn.com and register for the forums over there.  You'll see some familiar faces, and some new ones.



> Oh yeah and I also need to beg and plead for your generous offers of advice.
> The first question comes about my existing propane boiler.  My plumber had never heard of any books about pumping anything in any direction and so the system has the water pumping toward and not away from the boiler.  Should I rectify this while I am at all of this?



"rectifying" the pump on the return side of your existing furnace is not necessarily required, depending on a couple of basic premises.  Is it functioning adequately now?  Will you be using a heat exchanger between the GARN and the gas furnace (the preferred method)?  You can probably leave things as they are and save some $$ if the answer to both questions is yes.  The assumption of course is that you are using the gas fired furnace as your backup heat source.

As others have mentioned, you can source much of your materials online vie eBay, www.pexsupply.com, www.plumbersurplus.com, and others.  Without the need for trenching and underground piping, I don't see why you couldn't get your GARN up and running with a flat plate HX for the gas furnace for under $1500 (not including hot tub purchase  ;-) ).

Keep us posted!


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 4, 2009)

Welcome back, Robert. It's good to see you again.

We have had quite a few new Garn owners sign up to the site in recent months, so I think you should be able to get all the advice you need to do your installation. Of course, advice doesn't pay the bills, but it might help keep them under control. I'll second leaddog's Ebay recommendation. You can cut your costs by around half on the parts you buy on Ebay--IF--you know what you need and are willing to wait on it. An $80 aquastat, for example, can be had for around $20 on the 'bay, brand new and in the original box. Just make sure you don't buy some oddball stat that you can't use.

The red tape is really unfortunate. Seems like no good intention goes unpunished.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 4, 2009)

Leaddog – Thanks for the tip on the valves on eBay.  I will have to get “best prices” on the materials I need without cutting corners on quality.  I will be here a lot and cheering will help.

Redox -  It is somewhat embarrassing to say the least.  I have made all of the usual excuses when asked what is that “thing” in my garage.  The most plausible is the standard, “Oh that’s just an iron lung that I won on a TV game show.”  Equally useful is the ever popular, “Oh that thing, it’s a bathescope from Cousteau’s Calypso that I got for a steal on Craig’s List!”
    Yeah, I think I am pretty much okay with loosing the garage to the red tape.  I kind of like the idea of not having to go out into the weather to stoke the fire. Hoops aside, there are a couple of advantages to the current placement.  Thanks for the answer on the pump placement.  If there is no serious problem with air and/or corrosion, then I will just leave it as plumbed.

Leaddog #2 – The metal container is an excellent idea and if the Garn strays from the garage, you can bet that I will be looking into this idea.  Cost effective and fireproof, the same two reasons my wife consented to marry me.

Jim K – Thanks for your response.  Yes, I found the references to my situation on a Garn thread yesterday.  I was thinking that it would be a lot better to be a success story on this site than the alternative.  One way or the other, this thing is going on line in the next few weeks (hopefully not months).  
    The whole deal about the installation price is regrettable.  I did do my homework reading everything I could get my hand on about installation prices.  I set aside almost $3000 for the chore.  The estimates I was seeing online looked like between $1500 and $2500.  When the guy said $8000, I was just blown away and unfortunately mired in a political campaign.  Hindsight being 20/20, I wish I would have spent more energy on the heater problem because working myself to near exhaustion on a failed campaign did not get me much.  With the Garn working, I would have been warmer as I dealt with my losses.
    I already have the hot tub.  The heater has gone out on the dern thing about three times since we bought it.  The Garn will put an end to that nonsense.

Eric - It is also nice to talk to you again.  I will have to rely on the advice here, but am confident all will fall into place.  This is not the largest nor the only project of this sort I have taken on in my past.  As long as I take my time and can still laugh at myself, I should get through this.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 4, 2009)

rvtgr8 said:
			
		

> This is not the largest nor the only project of this sort I have taken on in my past.  As long as I take my time and can still laugh at myself, I should get through this.



Amen, my friend, amen.

My biggest error (so far) with my GARN install was letting someone else size my heat exchanger.  I installed a 5x12 20 plate GEA unit, and it is OK for average loads.  It cannot meet peak loads (I see delta Ts in the 30-40 degree range), and there is substantial head loss with such a small HX, so cranking the pump higher did not help.  I have  a brand new 50 plate unit sitting on the kitchen table now waiting to get swapped in.  I may use the 20 plate for our waiting to be installed hot tub.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 6, 2009)

This is my homemade schematic with part numbers on my existing radiant system.

Robert


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 6, 2009)

Okay, I finally contacted my installer again.  The conversation was pleasant and he said that he would let me buy his plans that ABC Plumbing had prepared.  He was able to break the bill down a little for me.  He said that of the $8000, only $2400 was labor.  Again, I was to do all the framing, insulating, flue work through the walls etc.  So in effect, the parts for the install came to $5600.  There is no trenching or burying so it has to be that whatever his design is is heavily dependent on components that do not show up in other designs that I have seen.  The installation manual, the Pumping Away plans do not seem to be laden with gadgets or scores of extra circulation pumps.
     He told me that the company had just installed their first Garn this December in Sedalia, Colorado and he was unsure whether the actual first install had changed their minds on their design.  He wants to see what I have in the way of drawings and how I intend to hook into the present system which is why I posted my drawing of the present radiant set-up.
     Am I being too cautious here?  They have put in only one more of these than I have and now they want to play a game of, "I'll show you mine, if you show me yours." Should I pay to see plans that already sound too exorbitant to begin with???


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## chrisfallis (Jan 6, 2009)

I would do a little comparison shopping for parts. I live about 5 minutes from ABC Plumbing in Colorado Springs and while they have an extensive inventory, their prices are a bit high. As an example, I special ordered a thin gasket to keep a toilet from leaking. It was $14. Yikes. And it was the wrong part!

An alternative too would be to ask the people at ABC Plumbing who designed the system to sell you that design directly. I would have a bit of a conscience problem taking their design, which they prepared in anticipation of parts sales, and getting your parts via mail order. Finally Dectra in Minnesota can provide fee based consultations about system design. Those guys may be the best since it is their system that you are about to install.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 7, 2009)

Chris - Thanks for the reply.  Yeah, I have struggled with all of this and told Kirk over at ABC that I feel badly.  I just can't afford it by a factor of almost three.  Part of the reasons I contacted them is that they have been apologetic saying that they had no idea that it could be done for less and they say that is why they want to see my plans.  I just figured that I should offer to buy their plans to compensate them for their trouble, but if they truly have $5400 in parts in the design, I don't know if they are being realistic.  Let's just say they are twice as expensive as the guy down the street.  That means I could get the parts for $2700 elsewhere, and that still is very pricey when you read about the installs on the site from qualified gasification gurus.  I am hoping that someone can toss me a bone on this one and give a few tips on my plans that I am currently working on.  Thanks again.

Robert


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 7, 2009)

Robert,

Excellent diagram.  I think you have one of the potentially easiest installs of a GARN that I have come across.  Given that your GARN is located adjacent to and within the heated space, and you already have a house fully plumbed with radiant tube, you are in great shape.

IMO, and I am sure others will correct me where I stray, you can install a very simple singe primary pipe loop to/from your existing Burnham boiler.  Tee into the return line of your Burnham and install a flat plate HX.  Size it based on your peak heat load, not your average heat load (I am upgrading my 5x12 20 plate to a 50 plate soon).  Use a variable speed circ pump (~$300) on the primary loop that is controlled by the boiler aquastat or by an end switch that energizes any time there is a heat call.  Plumb the primary loop through the other side of the HX and insulate the piping.  Done.  Some pipe, a pump, one big fat HX (~$500-700) and maybe an extra aquastat/pump controller.  It will work fine.  You can certainly upgrade and enhance it in the future, but if you want to get it running, I still think you can do the piping, fittings, valves, pump and controller for under $2k.

If you want to integrate the hot tub now, install a pair of closely spaced Tees in the primary loop with shut offs.  You can then add a small circ (Grundfos 15-58 or equivalent) to feed the hot tub.

Go see the pics on my web site to see how I integrated the Tees and HX into my existing EFM oil furnace.  If you have done P&H;before, you can easily handle this.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 7, 2009)

It occurred to me the other day that my recent heating projects have all started out more complicated than they eventually wound up being. I've bought a lot of fancy stuff that I either never used, or removed after installing. You always hate to admit that simple is better, but at least in my experience, it usually is. And interestingly enough, that's the basic principle behind the Garn.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 7, 2009)

Okay, I realize that this is a pretty simple drawing that lacks specific parts.  My intention is to try and determine whether this is just unworkable and a tribute to the bone density of my cranium or the glimmer of understanding.  Fire away!

Robert


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 8, 2009)

Your are close Robert, very close.  However, the circuit you have drawn is not the best setup.  You have created a Bullheaded Tee, which is a restrictive setup.  With the what you are showing you have the following as I see it:

Primary load - House 

Additional load - hot tub

Additional load - local zone heating (garage?  other outbuilding?)

Additional load - greenhouse(?)

You may want to switch the indirect water heater to a feed off the GARN directly rather than through the HX, but that is not mandatory.

This is a perfect setup for primary/secondary pumping.  I will give you a brief description, but there is a "sticky" at the top of the posts here in the Boiler Room that covers the subject, and you should get a copy of that book I mention from Dan Holohan (Primary-Secondary Pumping Made Easy).

Fabricate a primary loop of 1.5" black iron, with a primary circulating pump (I used a Grundfos 43-44 speed).  Install adapter Tees closely spaced with a "close" nipple for the supply and return for each load.  You can probably use 1.25" for the house loop to the HX, 1" for the Greenhouse, and 3/4" for the HT and additional zone.  These sizes will depend somewhat on the heat load of each secondary loop.  For each of the secondary loops you will utilize another circulator sized according to the GPM/heat load.  The house may need something equivalent to a Grundfos 26-99 3 speed due to the higher head, but the other secondary loops should be able to get by with a Grundfos 15-58.  I am using these pumps only for reference, and because I used them so I know their capacity.

Look at the pictures of my primary loop on my website (link in signature).

I suggest using a TACO SRC-405 or 406 to control the primary and secondary pumps.  I have not completed that part of my setup yet.

I hope I did not confuse you (or me).  It's getting late.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks to Jim K, Heaterman, Hot Rod Rohr, No Fosil and anyone else from whom I could steal,  here is my latest stab in the dark.  Did I mention that the closest I have ever come to being an engineer involved a plastic train set?  Fire away!  Robert


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## slowzuki (Jan 8, 2009)

I'll weigh in, I have to think more about it but I don't think you need all aspects of the primary secondary pumping and the basics of the first setup would be faster and more effective to get ou up and running.  

The Garn doesn't need cold water return protection like a conventional boiler.
All those extra pumps would need to run just to get water to the HX.
I like the sidearm in the original drawing.  The treated boiler water in the Garn is an extra step away from the drinking water at the expense of peak output from the lower temps.

I'd have to think more about the additional loads in the original drawing, I'd do them differnently.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 8, 2009)

Slowzuki,

Thanks for weighing in on this.  As a pure novice in terms of design (I do plumb) I find it truly amazing how much willingness there is to share what can only be described as engineering intelligence.   There are not that many people out there that have the expertise to design these systems and help install them.  I can only imagine that there are systems being put into place all over the country that are not well thought out and offer solutions that do not allow the owners to utilize the full potential of their equipment.  I know, after reading the books that I have, that I could build something that might work, but would it be efficient or safe for that matter?  This site provides such an important service.  It cannot be emphasized enough that while there may be more than one way to skin the proverbial cat, there are some ways that verge on inspired genius.  What a great exchange of ideas.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 8, 2009)

Apparently a lot of people with engineering degrees, like slowzuki, are into this kind of thing. And I think the professional heating and plumbing guys--heaterman, Joe Brown, hot rod, mtnfallsmikey, et. al--degreed engineers or not--have a wealth of practical experience and knowledge that they're gracious enough to share.


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 9, 2009)

Robert,

Slowzuki is correct.  Put the indirect WH back where it is/was on a loop from the boiler side.  The only thing to consider is that you will want the (relatively) high temp water from the HX to circulate through the WH, while the rest of the radiant zones will want cooler water.  I did not see it in the drawing, but things should already be set up this way if your first drawing depicts your existing system.  The radiant loops should have mixing valves, and the WH loop should not.

On the primary loop, just take the return after the greenhouse legs and send it back to the GARN.  You will need to use circulators on each of the secondary loops (you only put a pump on the house HX loop).  With closely spaced tees, the water will not flow through the secondary loop unless induced.  The pump on the primary circuit will can run continuously or come on whenever any secondary loop pump comes on.  This is easy with the switching relay controller I mentioned.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 9, 2009)

And the lights come on!  Jim K has just made me cognizant of the fact that my original system, designed by a plumber from Alaska and who has since left the state, neglected to point out the need for mixing valves.  They, as the picture bears out, are not there!  So, as I understand the problem, I have been dumping water that is too hot into my slab for nearly three years now!  I am guessing that this is a huge problem and has caused me to use more propane than has been necessary.  I now know where they should go, but can anyone tell me what to look for in terms of problems that this may have caused?




 The other drawing is my latest version.  I realize that it does not have all the necessary valves and correct circ motor sizes etc., but am I getting closer?  Fire away!  I could just spit!  I should have checked into all of this more closely as the guy put it in.  Hindsight is 20/20


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## slowzuki (Jan 9, 2009)

Could you post up a bit about your burnham boiler?  You mention propane, is it a mod-con boiler?  If so it is important.

Thanks


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 9, 2009)

Slowzuki,

This is the information on the side of my Burnham boiler.  If this is not sufficient, I can dig out the manuals from the barn.  Thank you so much for your interest in my problem and your patience with my ignorance.

Robert


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 9, 2009)

I did not see a model/part # on those labels, but based on the data tags, age of the install (3+ years) and your sketch, I would guess it is not a mod-con, but that should be confirmed.  Can you give us a Burnam p/n to look it up?

Also, let's not rush to judgement just yet on the original installer.  What is the operating range for the furnace now?  He may have set it low and varied the output of each zone by coil density alone, rather than by coil density and temp.  

Also, even if the water were hotter than desired, you should not be burning that much more propane, as the stats will just cycle the pump and zone valves on/off more frequently.  Do you have issues with the room temps running above the T-stat setting?

If he has the Burnham running at low temps (130-150?), you can add a single mixing valve to your existing manifolds to keep things as they were, or use a mixing valve on the GARN side of the house loop.  Lots of options.  First, let's get your Burnham propane unit figured out.

As to your updated sketch, you got it about 99% to what I was describing.  You do not want or need to have a dedicated cold water feed to the primary loop.  The GARN is an unpressurized system.  Some folks (like me) plumb a feed line up to the manway collar due to access issues, but you can just drop a hose into the manway for filling.  Water loss is minimal and can be checked during your biannual (biennial?) water testing.  I am adding a vented boiler sight glass to my tank to have a visual on the water level, but that is just me.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 9, 2009)

The boiler is a three year old Burnham - Series 2 (Model B) Gas - Fired Boiler.  I have been unable to find any part numbers or serial numbers. It appears that the temperature is set at 168*, which to my uneducated eye seems a little high.


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## slowzuki (Jan 9, 2009)

I don't know if you're thinking the same as me Jim but if its a mod-con it could easily and efficiently handle the low return temps the current install would give.  Looking at the numbers though the efficiency seems low for a condensing unit.  Robert does you boiler have metal vent or PVC?  Model number is the best way to tell of course.

Jim I also agree they may have used high water temps by design.  It can work in thick slabs with wide tube spacing.  Not so good in thin insulated slabs due to striping and excessive localized temps.

Another option is to use a variable speed pump on the HX instead of mixing.  I just don't like using tons of pumps as you start using a lot of electrical power which can be avoided by careful design.

How many direct tappings are there on the Garn?  The loop can be avoided when you have direct access to the storage and loads that need high temp like those he has shown.  Circs with integral flow checks on a large closely connected manifold could also be used to eliminate the loop with no ill effect and it would kill off the two pumps that will use the most power.

EDIT Just saw your post Robert, definitely not a condensing model.  The low return temp is likely not been a problem due to the cast iron high mass style construction but it could lead to problems.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 9, 2009)

I also would like to say that I am not upset with my plumber.  There is not a nicer guy on the planet.  I am just pointing out that he is no longer available so that I might ask questions of him.  I am upset that I did not do my homework up front.  I am the one responsible for any of this.  I had an engineer offer to do the layout initially, but as is the case with tight budgets, I took the less expensive path.   My bad. He would have installed it anyway I asked.  :red:


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## slowzuki (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm guessing the high price you were quoted may have involved work to change the existing installation too which Jim is getting at.  If it was designed for the high temp water, it will make the connection of the Garn dead simple, but you will likely want to add features to protect the propane boiler from the low return temps or you will want to replace that boiler with one which has a stainless hx once the cast iron one dies.  It may last a long time depending on how the controls on your system are setup.  

Even as the garns water temp fall, the Garns thermal mass may be able to keep the return water preheated even if the gas boiler has to come on to make up load.  This may protect it and extend the life.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 9, 2009)

I am pretty certain that the Burnham is not a condensing unit.  The vent, dampener (automatic), and flue are all metal.  Thank you again for your interest.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 9, 2009)

I also type with the speed and deftness of a glacier so I am not able to keep up with you very well.

The radiant is placed in 4" reinforced concrete at 12"o.c..  The slab is insulated from the ground with 2" of poly-iso close celled foam.  He took the design from ones he had been installing in the Anchorage, Alaska area.  He said he had done many of these, had never experienced any problems, and was certain we would be happy with the performance.  The speed and skill with which he plumbed the system was proof enough to me that he was not blowing smoke up my very large skirt.  What's the chance the patient will survive?


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 9, 2009)

Not to butt into this highly informative and technical discussion, but it's my understanding that cold water returning to a gas/oil boiler that is not running (as in idled for the season) does not pose a corrosion risk. Seems to me that anyone with a Garn wouldn't really need a backup except for times when they're out of town for days and no one is around to tend the boiler.

Am I wrong on the low return water temp issue?


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## Jim K in PA (Jan 9, 2009)

Slowzuki-Ya, I was thinking that he might already have issues with low return water temp into the propane furnace.  I am curious as to what his return temps actually are, since I don't think the house is that big, despite the number of zones.  If he is running 168 as the high set point, and assuming a 20 degree spread, his low set point should be 148.  Given the "seat of the pants" design, delta T across the load side could be 10, 20, 30 or ?  But, I imagine that his return temps are probably not causing an issue unless Robert is seeing rusty water disharging from his boiler drain(s).  I personally am not familiar with the HX corrosion issue due to low return temps.  Is water side corrosion, or combustion side?

With respect to the GARN keeping the return temps up, he could certainly mix the house side of the HX flow to keep that end of things happy.  The GARN will not care about return temps on it's side.  But, given Robert's budget constraints, maybe he could go simpler at first and omit the mixing valve.  As to the high number of pumps, I like that approach primarily because it is discreet, and gives complete, seperate control over the districts.  Three speed pumps will give him a degree of control without the expense of variable speed controllers/pumps, but then again, the delta T pumps from Wilo(?) apparently are not that much more expensive.

Eric - your input is never an interruption.  I am still a newbie, but I have caught on pretty quick (I think ;-) )  You are correct - Robert's Burnham will have to be reset to a lower cut in temp so he can take advantage of the lower temps his slabs can use and the larger temp spread of the GARN.  

OK - Robert - as Slowzuki said it is clear that you do not have a Mod-Con boiler.  I guess at this point you have some decisions to make as far as design approach.  Hopefully Slowzuki can take you in a cheaper direction than I did with the full-on P/S setup.  Also, what kind of thermostats are you using?  If you are using setback T-stats, in my opinion you should set them all to a consistant comfortable temp and leave them alone.  With radiant the response time is not quick, and you really gain no economy with the setback.  The thermal mass of the concrete slabs is slow to change temps.  There may be a period of experimentation that you will have to go through to see if you can get by with lower water temps in your slab.  If you can, this will give you more time between burns in the GARN.  You can experiment without doing anything more than adjusting the Burnham's set point to between 130-150 and keep your T-stats at whatever temp you like (but constant).  If you are still comfortable (and more importantly, your WIFE is still comfortable), then you can design a system that will use lower temps (mixing valve).


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 9, 2009)

The house is approximately 2,700 s.f.  It has a steel frame with 8" cavity walls blown solid with cellulose.  I sheathed both inside and outside of the walls with 5/8 OSB. The roof is concrete tile and there is a real wainscot of granite encircling the house.  I have 39 dbl pane windows (low E) and have installed dbl walled polycarbonate interior storm windows on each.  We have a Vermont Castings Reliant wood stove which we use to augment the home heating.  We keep the thermostats at 60* year round.  They are standard Honeywell (no frills) units. The house is incredibly efficient, not quite as efficient as our strawbale guest house, but pretty good nonetheless.  We have Ponderosa pine firewood for free from our sixty acres.  We are at 7,300 feet, with temps between 90* and -15*. Snows are brutal when they come and many years we have 160".  We average between 1,400 and 1,500 gals. of propane for the entire year.  Winter takes about 800 - 900 gals. of the total amount.


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 9, 2009)

I believe the settings are 128* to 168*.  This is the gauge on the front of the Burnham with the boiler not firing. I believe the high end pressure is 30p.s.i.


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## trehugr (Jan 10, 2009)

All I can say is WOW. What a beautiful place. If i come out to help you get hooked up, is there some good backcountry skiing nearby....duh...


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 10, 2009)

Tree.

Thank you for such a nice complement.  My wife and I are retired school teachers and were only able to afford to buy such pristine land as a result of building everything ourselves.  It is pretty sparsely populated and if we get a three foot snow, the cross country skis and snowshoes are the method of transportation of choice.
We love it here.  We are greenies to be sure.  We have the state's first bio-peat filtration system on our septic system.  We are into ethanol production from switchgrass. We built a hybrid strawbale house for guests and are currently about to install a 24'x48' greenhouse (passive solar until the boiler comes into play) which we hope to irrigate with rainwater. I hope to invite people here for a chance to see what can be done with little money and a lot of hard work one day.  More on that in the near future.

Robert


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## rvtgr8 (Jan 10, 2009)

Jim

I am not seeing any rust from my boiler, but if I wanted to do a more thorough check to see if I am getting internal corrosion, what would you suggest that I do?  In terms of finance right now, I am hoping to buy and install this U-boat now for somewhere between $2500 and $3500.  Is that unrealistic?


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## slowzuki (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi Robert,
I think it is entirely reasonable to achieve what you want to do on the budget, the question will be how fancy to get with it, and how many of the other toys you want to hook in immediately.  I've got a few questions for you about your current setup so we can help you more.

When it is cold out, do you know roughly what percentage of the time your circulator runs or zone valves run?  Since you have basic thermostats I'm assuming it is wired to open the zone valve and start the pump or it may be wired to run the pump continuous and the t-stat just runs the zone valve.

Being its cold up there it may not be a problem, but if its warm, say from your stove, and no zones are calling for heat, do you have noises when a zone calls for heat?  Some times happens when there is no relief valve between the manifolds from the zone valve slamming. This would be more common in shoulder seasons.

Once we figure this stuff out we can try to solve the plumbing.

I don't think you'll have a terrible problem with your gas boiler since its a high mass unit (cast iron hx) and you probably aren't using it to capacity.  We just would like to do what we can to protect it.  I assume right now you get your hot water off it with a coil?

Thanks,
Ken


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