# Grass Pellets on CL.  Gasification video too.



## imacman (Jan 14, 2010)

Just saw this the other day on CL, and gave the guy a call...he's about 1 hour from me.  He makes 100% grass pellets (not switchgrass), and also 95/5 % grass/wood pellets.

Spoke to jtakeman about this, since we both have multi-fuel units, and we're going to try a few bags. There's a distributor about 20 miles from jay.

For you people interested in "gasification", there's an interesting video in the "links" section of his website ("burning smoke") where he uses a homemade burner.

Just thought I'd share with the forum.

http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/for/1549813439.html

www.goldenbiomassfuels.com/


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## jtakeman (Jan 14, 2010)

I have contacted the local dealer and I will be getting 2 bags for the Omega to consume! I also contacted the gentlemen macman mentioned. Very nice chap. He is willing to work with his buyers. He can ship a grass only pellet or a combo of wood and grass. 

I plan on doing some type of a review for the interested parties.

Maybe we can get franks to burn some in his Europa too? franks you out there?

Just maybe the Eagle has landed for us multi fuel stove owners? I certainly hope so.

Thanks for the tip macman! I think you made a great find here! Also Thanks for sharing with me. I will get them and burn them as soon as I finish the pellet review.

Jay


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## poconoman (Jan 14, 2010)

WOW, those pellets are LONG! :bug: Mac and Jay, please give a full report!


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## jtakeman (Jan 14, 2010)

Looks like I will have to wait for Dirk to ship Mike the shorter pellets. The guy near me(Mike) only has the LONG ones! I ran some furnace grade pellets last year thet were real long. But maybe its best to no over work the auger. Its my main source of heat and no spares handy.

Oh well no luck lately. But no rush. I have plenty of pellets to sample. I haven't got to the Cherry pits yet either. This getting to be like a job.


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## schoondog (Jan 15, 2010)

Macman,
 I just e mailed  the company and am looking to get  a few bags to try. If these guys are close to Pawling I am half way between the two of you. Let me know if I can help with logistics. I work on your side of the river and live 20 mins. from Pawling. Waiting to see what these guys have. Pretty cool. My multi fuel can't wait for a chance to burn something different.

Schoondog


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## imacman (Jan 15, 2010)

schoondog said:
			
		

> Macman,
> I just e mailed  the company and am looking to get  a few bags to try. If these guys are close to Pawling I am half way between the two of you. Let me know if I can help with logistics. I work on your side of the river and live 20 mins. from Pawling. Waiting to see what these guys have. Pretty cool. My multi fuel can't wait for a chance to burn something different.
> 
> Schoondog



Thanks Schoon.  The owner (DJ) is going to give me a call when he's coming down to my area....not sure when, though (I'm not in a big hurry).  If you decide to go get some in the very near future, give me a shout......maybe it would be easier that way.


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## schoondog (Jan 15, 2010)

Got email from DJ. He is only 5 mins. from me. Going to talk to him today. Will let you know what transpires.

Schoondog


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## jtakeman (Jan 15, 2010)

Schoondog,

Keep us posted. DJ seems like the type that will work with you. In my chatting he even said he can increase the wood amout to higher levels if need be. But I want to try the straight grass first. Then the grass/wood mix.

Very hard to believe there are only 3 people interested in this so far. Were are all the multifuel owners?

jay


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## MCPO (Jan 15, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> Schoondog,
> 
> Keep us posted. DJ seems like the type that will work with you. In my chatting he even said he can increase the wood amout to higher levels if need be. But I want to try the straight grass first. Then the grass/wood mix.
> 
> ...



All eyes are on you guys. You are our heroes.


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## smoke show (Jan 15, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> Were are all the multifuel owners?
> 
> jay


over here in the land of cheap pellets and even cheaper corn.
still lurking in interest.


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## jtakeman (Jan 15, 2010)

Gio said:
			
		

> All eyes are on you guys. You are our heroes.



Just your average tinker'r. Not a hero by any means. And you sir are one of the fellows I highly respect here. 

Maybe with enough interset DJ will come hang out with us here? Very intelligent person and has tons more experience at this. I think we could learn something.


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## schoondog (Jan 15, 2010)

Jtake and Macman,
 I am going there tomorrow morning to get a few bags of the wood/grass mix. Macman I will  then be going to the shop in Milton. Let me know if you want something. DJ said he has a mix pellet that is 1/4-1/2" length and he will custom bag what I want. Jay, if you want just grass PM me and let me know if I can help. 

Schoon


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## QuadraBurner (Jan 15, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> Very hard to believe there are only 3 people interested in this so far. Were are all the multifuel owners?



We are waiting patiently for your review  :cheese: .  I have not heard of anyone doing this up my way yet, otherwise I would be all over trying this too.  Did he give you guys any idea of how many BTU's these are rated for?  Just curious how they compare to wood pellets.


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## jtakeman (Jan 15, 2010)

QuadraBurner said:
			
		

> jtakeman said:
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Good question. I just sent an email asking what the approx BTU's are. I will post asap for you.

This is actually more interesting to me than the pellet review. I suppose I can sneak in a 2 bag grass burn. But I don't think I can get the all grass pellet just yet(Not that kind of grass! :lol. But I might have to wait until the warmer season. If the BTU's are low and my basement install working against me. If the house gets cold! I am in the doggy house for good. Wife doesn't like to be cold!


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## imacman (Jan 15, 2010)

Gio said:
			
		

> ...All eyes are on you guys. You are our heroes.


 hh:   WOW....this is a LOT of pressure!


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## jtakeman (Jan 15, 2010)

QuadraBurner said:
			
		

> jtakeman said:
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Here's DJ's reply.

Jay : I just ran off a half ton of pure Timothy grass cut last summer and field retted for 60 days pellets are cut down 3/4 inch max I haven't checked density probably 35-37 lb/ft3 . btus are most likely about 8000/lb My golden rod blend pellets are a lot denser  and have more btus. If you want btus I  make a char pellet (green coal)  that burns at at 12000 btus.  Any way get in touch with me and we can figure out how to get you some pellets. Thanks for your interest. DJ

Looks promising!
jay


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## QuadraBurner (Jan 15, 2010)

I found this site that has quite a bit of info on burning grass (wow, that sounds like it could be MUCH more interesting than what we are discussing!)

http://www.grassbioenergy.org/


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## MCPO (Jan 15, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

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 Well, we certainly want to encourage you guys. I think most of us realize how much effort and time it takes to test and compile results , not to mention the extra costs involved.


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## tinkabranc (Jan 15, 2010)

I am curious as to the moisture content %


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## kinsmanstoves (Jan 15, 2010)

Not to rain on your parade.

Please remember that your stove needs to be rated for a fuel before you should burn it.  No matter what it is that stove needs UL certification in it.  Just because it is a Bio-fuel stove does not mean the stove or chimney can handle it.

I  am not your insurance agent or State Fire Marshal but they have been know to take samples of the ash pan if there is a house fire or something bad happens.

Red means "Danger Will Robinson!".

Eric


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## jtakeman (Jan 15, 2010)

kinsman stoves said:
			
		

> Not to rain on your parade.
> 
> Please remember that your stove needs to be rated for a fuel before you should burn it. No matter what it is that stove needs UL certification in it. Just because it is a Bio-fuel stove does not mean the stove or chimney can handle it.
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 Stove rated for this biofuel=Grass√  

Stove pipe rated for this biofuel=Grass√  

House insurance has biofuel/Biomass stove in clause√  

Not having to deal with fluctuating wood pellet prices=PRICELESS 

GREEN MEANS GO BABY


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## MCPO (Jan 15, 2010)

kinsman stoves said:
			
		

> Not to rain on your parade.
> 
> Please remember that your stove needs to be rated for a fuel before you should burn it.  No matter what it is that stove needs UL certification in it.  Just because it is a Bio-fuel stove does not mean the stove or chimney can handle it.
> 
> ...



Cripes, You mean we`ll have to stop mixing used motor oil with pellets or suffer the consequences of the fire marshall and insurance  co?  What will pook think?


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## jtakeman (Jan 15, 2010)

Gio said:
			
		

> kinsman stoves said:
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I thinx pook would dig this here grass thread. In more ways than one! :lol:


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## Czech (Jan 16, 2010)

And if you need a gasifier fireplace for your deck, these are pretty cool units. Can't wait for the maple sap to start flowing this year! As far as 'agri' pellets go, my only comment is that it fun to do as long as you are prepared for alot of ash, your warranty is over, and you be safe. I've dumpster dived for dog food before outside a local plant, mostly corn but alot of oil too!


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## Pellet-King (Jan 16, 2010)

I smell "Weed"!


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## schoondog (Jan 16, 2010)

I hear you Eric. I will be watching closely. I did find out the local wood/pellet shop in town has been burning these pellets for a few years. I used to work for the guy, he has been selling stoves for over 20 years and don't believe he would burn them if they weren't OK. Also value your advise. Thanks.

Schoondog


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## poconoman (Jan 16, 2010)

kinsman stoves said:
			
		

> Not to rain on your parade.
> 
> Please remember that your stove needs to be rated for a fuel before you should burn it.  No matter what it is that stove needs UL certification in it.  Just because it is a Bio-fuel stove does not mean the stove or chimney can handle it.
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PC45 should fit the bill. :coolsmile:


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## imacman (Jan 16, 2010)

Well, here are the grass pellets......approx. 96% grass, and the rest is wood.  Won't be burning these until later tonight or tomorrow due to the stove being on 3 and temps outside in the high 40's.

I want to clean the firebox/burnpot before dumping these in.


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## MCPO (Jan 16, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

> Well, here are the grass pellets......approx. 96% grass, and the rest is wood.  Won't be burning these until later tonight or tomorrow due to the stove being on 3 and temps outside in the high 40's.
> 
> I want to clean the firebox/burnpot before dumping these in.



looks good enough to smoke. Where`s Pook?


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## jtakeman (Jan 16, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

> Well, here are the grass pellets......approx. 96% grass, and the rest is wood.  Won't be burning these until later tonight or tomorrow due to the stove being on 3 and temps outside in the high 40's.
> 
> I want to clean the firebox/burnpot before dumping these in.



A tad bit of fines there. How do the pellets feel compared to standard wood pellets?


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## imacman (Jan 16, 2010)

Except for the dark color, they feel the same.  Nice, grassy smell too!  Feel like I'm in a barn  LOL.
Here's the comparison to wood pellet fines (yes, quite a bit of fines....I'm glad I can run them through my pellet cleaner):


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## jtakeman (Jan 16, 2010)

I can't wait to here what you think of them. 

You should expect silica in the burnpot. The ash will probably be real gritty like. Might also get some raisin sized pebbles in the burnpot. They should burn similar to the switchgrass pellets I tried. 

You live close to town? You may get some strange kritters lurking about trying to find where the smell is coming from! :lol: Pook get away from mac's vent pipe! hehe.

keep us posted, (By the way I am jealous! I want to burn some grass too. soon)


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## schoondog (Jan 17, 2010)

Macman and Tjakeman,
 Interesting that there are substantial fines in the bags. Dirk showed me the fan he uses along with the screen and mentioned that we would see little fines. He also mentioned silica and the lack thereof in his process. I will begin burning mine tomorrow too after a stove cleaning. They look great in the bag and in his building, definitely a difference between the all grass and the wood (4%) mix, that little bit of wood really makes a hard pellet.

schoondog


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## imacman (Jan 17, 2010)

schoondog said:
			
		

> ....Interesting that there are substantial fines in the bags. Dirk showed me the fan he uses along with the screen and mentioned that we would see little fines......



Schoon, also consider that after we put those bags into my car, when I got home, there were fines that "seeped" out from the burlap bags in the back of the car.

Still, very interested in seeing what happens.  My stove is just now running out of the wood pellets, but I don't know if I feel like cleaning it now......might not happen 'til tomorrow. I'll probably just put enough wood pellets in tonight to get me to tomorrow morning.


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## jtakeman (Jan 17, 2010)

schoondog said:
			
		

> Macman and Tjakeman,
> Interesting that there are substantial fines in the bags. Dirk showed me the fan he uses along with the screen and mentioned that we would see little fines. *He also mentioned silica and the lack thereof in his process.* I will begin burning mine tomorrow too after a stove cleaning. They look great in the bag and in his building, definitely a difference between the all grass and the wood (4%) mix, that little bit of wood really makes a hard pellet.
> 
> schoondog



Schoondog,

That was the only real issue(sillica) with the switch grass. Other than that they were good heat producers. You may also find they need lots and lots of air to try to get a clean burn.

I can't wait to try the all grass and compare to the switch grass. I got to dig through my notes to see what temps I was getting. But if not I can try a few bags again from BT Ent. The Pheonix switch grass also had some wood content.

I can't wait to see what you and macman think of them. I am on the edge of my seat again(I was dieing to hear what krooser though of the Bear Mountains Doug Fir pellets). Too much excitement for the mind

jay


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## jtakeman (Jan 17, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

> schoondog said:
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Might not be a bad idea to start fresh in the morning. Better to not rush it. Be prepared to do some tweaking. I really doubt there going to burn just like wood. One nice thing is they should burn slower. Same as corn does. Wood release's BTU's very quickly. Agra fuels release there energy slower. I call it prolonged BTU's.

This is one reason I want all grass. I can add the quicker burning wood in ratio's. Slowly increase until I get the quick BTU's of the wood and the gradual BTU's of the agra fuel. Kinda like the way I found 60/40 for pellets/corn blend burnt in pellet mode for max heat produced. But I will start with all grass in multifuel mode just to see what I get and how clean the burn is. Thinking a little ahead is all.

Have fun guys, wish I was with you. 
jay


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## schoondog (Jan 17, 2010)

Jay,
 I almost feel bad burning these things before you do, With all you have done. But don't despair we will get you a nice pile of burlap bags filled with grass to play with soon!
 Ya....  I am gonna clean my stove and empty it tomorrow and burn the grass while I watch the games tomorrow. Just in case.

Schoondog


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## imacman (Jan 17, 2010)

Well, I couldn't stand it anymore.....so I did a quick vacuum of the burnpot & firebox, cleaned the glass, brushed the excess ash into the ash pan, and loaded some grass/wood pellets into the hopper.  Hit the start button, and waited.  The pics show the result.  One thing I DID notice went right along with what Jay mentioned, that the grass burns slower.  The burn pot started filling up, so I changed my lower buttons settings from 3-2-1 for the wood pellets, to 2-4-1 to slow the pellet feed, and increase the air.  I saw immediate improvement in the flame.   Just have to let it burn, and "tweak" the settings.  Wish me luck!


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## jtakeman (Jan 17, 2010)

Looking pretty good so far. I wish you some luck, But with your knowledge and experiance. You will be ok. 

You probably will not be able to get the super clean burn as pellets either. Dark gray is about the best you can get, I would say.

That's about all the tips I can give you. Have fun with it brother grass burner!(shy, me wants grass too!)

jay


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## imacman (Jan 17, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> .....You probably will not be able to get the super clean burn as pellets either. Dark gray is about the best you can get, I would say......



Yep Jay, the ash is kinda "pebbly" and gray.  I've had to up the air even more, and lower the feed more too.  I'm at 1-8-1 right now just to try to get the burn pot to stay cleaned out more.  

Tomorrow I may even re-set the stove to the corn setting, which makes the stirrer move more on each auger feed, lengthens the amount of time the ignitor and air pump run= hotter burn on start-up..

I'm on a learning curve!


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## jtakeman (Jan 17, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

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But I bet its fun too! Something new to learn is interesting and challenging. Keeps that brain active!

I am glued to this!


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## schoondog (Jan 17, 2010)

Macman,
 They said grass could be addicting! Couldn't wait to lit up eh?  :lol:  Good luck and I'm gonna do mine tomorrow. 
Schoondog


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## schoondog (Jan 17, 2010)

Hey Macman are you warm this morning?

Schoondog


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## MCPO (Jan 17, 2010)

What can you report on the heat output ?


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## jtakeman (Jan 17, 2010)

macman is a little old and needs his beauty sleep. Probably won't log in till noon!

schoondog, Ya burning yet? We are about to head out to breakfast and hit HD for the home project supplies. I will try to call ya when I get back!


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## schoondog (Jan 17, 2010)

Stove will be running out of pellets shortly. Think I will go shoot the bow for awhile as stove cools then come back, clean it up and smoke some grass while watching football. That sounds illegal. 

Schoondog


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## jtakeman (Jan 17, 2010)

macman?

schoondog?

Ahh, they must have past out from all them *"grass"* fumes. How did we say that when we were kids? "CRASHED" I think it was. I can't remember that far back anymore.


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## schoondog (Jan 17, 2010)

OK, sorry but had a little problem with the sump pump and water in basement. Trumped the grass burning. Just started the burn. Cleaned the stove, emptied hopper for the most part. Started with grass pellets. Seemed OK. Only a few minutes in the burn, room fan just came on. Wife and kids say it smells like dirt, I mentioned a walk in a field in the summer and after a second they agreed. And now my car smells the same. Oh yea plenty of fines. I don't clean mine but can tell when I dump them in. Doesn't bother me though. May bug others. I have to give them a little more air also. I have an volume air damper on my stove. Will get back soon with more.

Schoondog


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## schoondog (Jan 17, 2010)

No problems with the burn so far. Nice heat, gotta burn with a little more air. Can't tell about ash just yet. Pics are gonna be a problem as I am missing the Jets game trying to download the camera and for some reason I can't see the last 25 pics on the computer. They are on the card, but won't transfer. Will work on it later. So far so good. 

Schoon


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## jtakeman (Jan 17, 2010)

schoondog said:
			
		

> No problems with the burn so far. Nice heat, gotta burn with a little more air. Can't tell about ash just yet. Pics are gonna be a problem as I am missing the Jets game trying to download the camera and for some reason I can't see the last 25 pics on the computer. They are on the card, but won't transfer. Will work on it later. So far so good.
> 
> Schoon



Schoondog,

I gave up them camera drivers years ago. I use a media card reader. No drivers and such. Just plug in the card. much easier for me anyway. 

Glad the stove seems to ne burning good for you. Wonder what happen to macman?


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## imacman (Jan 17, 2010)

Well, made it overnight w/ the grass/wood mix.  

After burning for about an hour last night, I realized that the air needed to be bumped up, and feed down.  Kept messing with it, but just couldn't seem to get it to burn all the way across the pot....flame would come & go.

Finally decided to shut stove off and re-program for corn so the stirrer would work more.  Have the bottom buttons on 2-7-1.

Stove burned through the night on Hi-lo on heat setting 4.  Been on that all day today, and burn pot looks good.....nice flame & embers all across the pot....I think the stirrer made the difference. I can see the ash build-up now, and it's much more than wood pellets, but is light grey and very fine.

Put my 2nd bag of grass/wood in today at about 1:30 (fines were much less in this bag).....I'm wondering if these are really 40 lb. bags....Schoon said DJ told him the weights were from "38-41 each....hmmmmmmm.  

Schoon, did you get a chance to weigh yours?  (I don't have a scale in the house)

Here's a pic I took a few minutes ago, and you can see the ash build-up on the front edge of the burn pot.  It's about 1/2" deep, and that was cleaned last night at about 10 PM.


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## schoondog (Jan 17, 2010)

Ya  I plug the card into my printer/scanner/copier and usually have no problems. For some reason I can see the pics on the printer but can't see the last batch of pics on the computer. Don't know where macman is hope all is well. Thought he would be posting all day about this......Just checked the ash, light gray and pebble like. Sorta reminds me of lignetic ash. The heat is really pretty good. 150* in level 3 auto.. Just cut back on the air a little. Don't want much more heat in the house right now as kids have friends over and wifey cooked up some goodies for us. 73* in house now and going up. So far I like this stuff. 

Schoondog


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## jtakeman (Jan 17, 2010)

Light gray ash sound very promising. I wouldn't expect it but you are both reporting that. Awesome!

Schoondog, What would you woodpellets be about at the feed 3 setting? Just for comparing?

Sounds like you 2 are having fun and very good luck with these.

Keep us posted.


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## schoondog (Jan 17, 2010)

Macman, 
 Happy too hear from ya. We were getting worried. You are right. Just weighed a bag of Marths- 39.8 lbs.  bag of grass/wood- 34.4 lbs.  You noticed that when putting in your truck yesterday. You must have lifted many bags of pellets in your quest to be pellet pig king!! :lol:  ;-) 
  I think though we have to keep in mind that Dirk does not by any means have an automated setup with quality control stops etc. He does take pride and is committed don't get me wrong. He is trying to get a new technology business going really by himself. He is more into being sure the product is being cooked right and not so much the presentation if  you will. We can tell him he gave us some light bags and see what he says. 
  Jtakeman 3 auto for me with a good pellet will be in the 150*- 160* range, these things are really doing pretty well.  I used to take temps with the IR gun but that is at the shop and I would have to retake some temps. with pellets again as the notes I had from last year got  thrown away. The house is 74 now and its 34* out cooking is done and there are several folks in the house. 

Schoondog


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## jtakeman (Jan 17, 2010)

Very promising, Not to far to get them reasonable price compared to corn(with multi-ton discount).

Maybe we have found the multifuel we were looking for?

I'm excited even! :lol:


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## imacman (Jan 17, 2010)

Yep, so far, so good.  Now that I have the stove "dialed in" a little closer, I too would be interested in burning these more often.  The only issue for me would be the "light" weight of the bags.  Based on Schoon's weaight measurement of 34.4 lbs, that $5.00 bag really cost almost $6.00/40 lbs or $300/ton.

As much as I would love to use them, if DJ can't get the weights closer to 40/bag (or he starts charging for the ACTUAL weight per lb in each bag), I'd have to stick with wood pellets.  I can't afford $300/ton when I can get wood pellets for $249 and lower.


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## schoondog (Jan 18, 2010)

Here are a few photos...... touchdown jets


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## schoondog (Jan 18, 2010)

Here are a few pics.


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## imacman (Jan 18, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> Light gray ash sound very promising. I wouldn't expect it but you are both reporting that. Awesome!.....



Here's a pic of some ash I let fall out of the stove so i could take a pic.  (yeah, I know....it's a little out of focus.....guess I got too close w/o going to macro).


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## schoondog (Jan 18, 2010)

Macman,   
    I hear what your saying about the weight. More I think about it he was short over 12%. Didn't do all the math but he would have to make the weight right for me to buy alot more. He did have a certified scale there but it wasn't in use when I picked up the bags. They were just stacked on the floor in the barn.  THOUCHDOWN JETS!  But again I think if we tell him I believe he will make it right. On the other side of the coin I love the idea that the grass growing in the fields that I am riding my motorcycle through all summer on my way to work is being harvested so I can stay warm all winter. And at $200 a ton 10 mins. from my house is great too. I have some questions as to how consistant this stuff will be. I guess time will tell.

Schoondog


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## jtakeman (Jan 18, 2010)

Alright that's it! After I burn the NEWP'S I am taking a break and burning some grass. You guys look like you are having way to much fun even! Mind if I join you?

I think if we express our concerns, DJ will work with us. We know light bag weights are not going to fly. After all this venture is to save money, Right?


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## imacman (Jan 18, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> Alright that's it! After I burn the NEWP'S I am taking a break and burning some grass. You guys look like you are having way to much fun even! Mind if I join you?
> 
> I think if we express our concerns, DJ will work with us. We know light bag weights are not going to fly. After all this venture is to save money, Right?



LOL!  I knew you couldn't take it much longer Jay.....'cmon in and join the fun!

Yep, I'll admit it's fun trying something new in the pellet stove.  And I also agree that the bag weights are a small issue that needs to be addressed.  I really like the idea of buying a local, easily grown source of fuel, but I'm not going to go broke doing it.


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## jtakeman (Jan 18, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

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Agreed! As tight as it is lately, I have to be wise on how I spend it. Can't afford to throw away any off it. Same reason I passed on the corn. Brake even, But work harder. Just didn't seem logical. Same idea. Locally grown in one season instead of 40 seasons. But there has to be a savings some where. Or maybe I am just too spoiled with wood pellets?

Hey I just thought or something. Will we keep our pig status if we buy 4 tons of grass pellets instead of wood pellets?


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## imacman (Jan 18, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> Hey I just thought or something. Will we keep our pig status if we buy 4 tons of grass pellets instead of wood pellets?



Pellet Cows????


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## schoondog (Jan 18, 2010)

Hey guys,
  Just weighed the other 2 bags of all grass ( that are slated for test master jtakeman) 37.7lbs. and 44.5 lbs. My guess is DJ needs to find a better way to weigh. (couldn't resist that one)   Now 4 hours or so into the burn and it does look a little ashy in there for only four hours. (its just workin out this way I'm not doing it on purpose) so I am in line and agree with Macmans findings. Macman what say you as far as heat output?


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## imacman (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm still "tweaking" the air/blower speed so I have enough air for a good burn, but not so fast that the heat exchanger can't do it's job.  I've backed the blower (LBA) down to 6 ( I had the stove on 2-8-1 over last night), so we'll see in an hour or so.  Right now, the heat coming out on heat seting 4 is nice...room is right at 70 degrees where I like it.

BTW, just ran the 1st bag of all grass pellets through the pellet cleaner in preparation for those to go in the stove.  Probably tomorrow morning.  They look exactly like the others...maybe just a little less "shiny" surface.


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## imacman (Jan 18, 2010)

Made it through the 2nd night on auto and Hi/Lo burning with 100% grass pellets this time.  I don't see any difference in the burn.  

Schoon, how did you make out?


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## schoondog (Jan 18, 2010)

Very well. Granted it got warm last night here (36 or so) but house was warm. Just spoke to the wifey and she turned it down to 2 and now on 1 which is an idle really just enough to keep stove lit. Some black on the window, but thats normal for my stove on 1 or 2. I will look at the ash when I get home later.

Schoon


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## jtakeman (Jan 18, 2010)

I can't wait till these NEWP's are done! I called the Norfork storage place and talked to Mike. He offered to give me 2 bags to try before I even bought any. My wife is going to get them tomorrow afternoon. My new ignitor showed up today too. I gonna burn some grass, I gonna burn some grass! Ya hoo.(I not excited am I.) Hopefully the NEWP's are finished when I get home from work so I can toss them in. Give the stove a good cleaning of coarse.

Do you guys want me to do the full gamut like the other pellet reviews? You know heat, ash volume and ash weight.


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## MCPO (Jan 18, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

> jtakeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Pellets made from cow $hit?


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## imacman (Jan 18, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> .....Do you guys want me to do the full gamut like the other pellet reviews? You know heat, ash volume and ash weight.



Jay, It WOULD be interesting to know how they compare to wood pellets, but you've gone well past the call of duty with all the other pellet testing you've done.  If you want to do it with the grass pellets, that's up to you, IMO.


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## jtakeman (Jan 18, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

> jtakeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have done this so many times now. One more isn't going to phase me. If we got a good idea of what this has for an ash percentage. Maybe some others will join in and become grass burners. Mostly we are speculating on the ash amount. I know my results aren't lab results but I be getting pretty close to them.

I was pretty much planning to anyways. You guys say the word and I will do my best!


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## imacman (Jan 19, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> ....I was pretty much planning to anyways. You guys say the word and I will do my best!



Like I said Jay, it's totally up to you, but I'll be honest....I WOULD like to know a little more about their "specs".  The price is right IF the heat is right.  

I already know there will be more ash, but I can handle that.  I've burned almost 3 bags of them so far, and haven't cleaned the stove yet, so if I can make at least 4 days between cleanings, I'm OK with that.


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## jtakeman (Jan 19, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

> jtakeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can take an average of all the pellets I burned. Both ash and heat. Burn the grass and compare. The only other way is we and DJ send them to a lab like they do pellets. I don't think we could afford the cost.

Next best is a real world made buy us. I know schoon has taken some heat numbers.


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## jtakeman (Jan 19, 2010)

Well it looks like the pellets I am getting tomorrow are actually the Goldenrod(grass wood blend) pellet. I just got an email from DJ explaining them. Mike was calling them hay pellets. I think I am getting confused with all the names of these pellets. I was hoping for the all grass, But these will do just fine.


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## schoondog (Jan 19, 2010)

Finally got home and checked things. Here is what stinks is that it got a little to warm here today and stove had to be turned down to idle and auto 2.  Not the best scenario for testing new stuff. I would like to run at auto3 or above. I have burned about a bag and a half. Stove is still half full. Briefly ran on 4 this morning before I went to work and temps were nearly170* which is OK. Really wish it had stayed cold. No problems burning these in my stove. Ash is more than average, I agree with macmans observations. Almost to the point it is much more ash. I would like to shut down, clean and weigh the ash but frankly I don't have a scale or a mason jar, my vac would have to be cleaned , the stove has to be off for at least 2 hours to cool. I can't do that tonight. Jay, I have no idea how you did all you did. We are some pain in the tookus.  Ash is a very light gray. I took a few more pics of the ash and will try to post. Looks very much like the pics macman took. Overall I believe I will be buying some more and do more observations. I like them.

Schoondog


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## schoondog (Jan 19, 2010)

Jay just saw your post. The 4% wood is actually golden rod. When you look at the rolls of hay (I believe it is timothy hay) the stuff you are getting and the stuff I just burned, there is golden rod mixed in the round bale. I thought I would see sawdust or wood chips being blended in to the compressor/ pellet maker, but no. Some of his fields have golden rod in them and when he harvests it is mixed in. Some of the fields are just grass and those bales make the grass only pellet. DJ says the golden rod burns hotter than the grass. Talked to local pellet shop proprietor today and he burns DJ pellets in his Quad AE multifuel and has for year and half. Says all is well. They burn great.

Schoondog


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## schoondog (Jan 19, 2010)

Here are a few pics.

Schoondog


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## jtakeman (Jan 19, 2010)

Schoon,

My stove is pretty simple to clean, I don't use the vac for sampling. I am just using brushes to sweep all the ash in to the ash pan. Then I screen out the unburnt stuff and put it in a jar(Looks like I need a BIG jar for these). Not really all that bad. I can do it in my sleep now.

I think I finally get the mix now, Thanks for the explaining. Mike in Norfork called it just plain hay. I may like the fact that the goldenrod burns hotter. But I though goldenrod was a weed not wood. We be burning weed man!

I wounder if DJ has ever tried growing switchgrass? Switch grass has more BTU's than a standard field grass. Due to the natural oils in the switchgrass. It also has less ash content. Or maybe a local farmer has some and we can get DJ to pelletize some for use to sample. Benski is hopefully getting some soon. He may give us a report on them. 

I tried the Phoenix pellets made by Energex. But there not 100% switchgrass. They have a high bark content wood fiber added to the mix. From what I understand Energex is tinkering with there switchgrass pellets and may someday have them more available. Checking my notes from last year they did burn pretty darn hot. I think they were at the 3% ash level. Had a PFI label on the bag. 

DJ is saying that these are closer to 4% ash level. Not sure how he tested orif he had them tested. But 4% is a lot of ash. The majority of the pellet I tested are closer to .5%. So if these are at the 4% mark that would be more like 8 times more ash than we see with pellets. Lots more cleaning. The ash vac is gonna get a workout. 

Because of the warmer weather. I still have 3/4 of a bag left on the NEWP's. Looks like it will be more like tomorrow before I can try the grass pellets. can't wait until there finish!

Edit: I forgot to ask, You guys seeing any pebbles or stones in the burnpot?


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## imacman (Jan 19, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> ......But I though goldenrod was a weed not wood. We be burning weed man!
> 
> Edit: I forgot to ask, You guys seeing any pebbles or stones in the burnpot?



Oh WOW man....that is like FAR OUT man!  

OOOOPS....was just thinking back to Cheech & Chong in "Up in Smoke"....LOL

Anyway, Jay, here's a pic of my ash pan last night at about 11 PM.  That is 3 bags burned.  It's kinda weird because it IS like tiny pebbles (but I haven't seen anything that looks like stones), and these are a big contrast to the VERY fine grey ash in the firebox.

I'm burning the last bag (2nd bag of 100% grass) right now, but the stove is on a low heat setting (3-4), so it will be a while before these are all burned.  I still have not cleaned the burnpot/firebox since I started these on Sat. night, and the stove is burning the same since I figured out the right settings.


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## jtakeman (Jan 19, 2010)

I still can't believe how light colored the ash is.

Anyway, Getting ready to do my evauluation of these pellets. I crunched the data on my other test's to get the overall avarage of the pellets I burnt so far. I had a little time while on my morning break to do this.

Average temp was 238ºF

Average ash was 0.54%

I would be totally happy if the heat was close to 238ºF for me. And if the ash comes in under the 8 x .54%=4.3%(which is what DJ said the amout basically would be). I would be tickled pink if the ash came in much lower. 

jay

Edit I also found some more switchgrass pellets. I will be picking them up tonight!


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## jtakeman (Jan 20, 2010)

I'm burning grass, I'm burning grass! Yahoo.

Well I'm finally with you boys. Not bad at all flame wise. Still waiting for the stove to come up to temp. My 2 bags were also loaded with fines. The weight was all over. 41 lbs in one bag and 29 in the other. So I only have 70 to go with on the grass/wood mix. Pellet length is  from 1/2 to 1 1/4 inches long.

My mode is in pellet and I am at feed 3 trim 3 and air is 14 on the magnahelic guage. I will adjust from here. To clean or richen the burn. These were the settings that worked good for the switchgrass I burned last year.

Temp average was 220ºF(I got it to 228ºF but the burn was a bit rich.) 240ºF with feed increased.

Final stove setting for decent burn Feed 3 trim 3 mag setting 12.5.

Ash volume 2 1/3 mason jars

ash weight 34.24 ounces.

ash percentage 3.1%

Weight burned was 70 LBS. total.

Some pict's for you.

So far so good.
jay


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## imacman (Jan 20, 2010)

OK Jay, looking forward to your opinion of them.  Burn that grass

BTW, since I'm not familiar with the stove controls on an Enviro stove, do those settings you mentioned have an increase in air compared to pellets?  After I got done tweaking, I realized that all i really did compared to the wood pellets was increase the burn air from 2 to 6 (out of 9).

Gave good heat, so if I get any more of them, only thing I'm going to do is lower the pellet feed one notch.....seems like i went through those 4 bags pretty fast, (but I don't know what they weighed either).


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## jtakeman (Jan 20, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

> OK Jay, looking forward to your opinion of them. Burn that grass
> 
> *BTW, since I'm not familiar with the stove controls on an Enviro stove, do those settings you mentioned have an increase in air compared to pellets? After I got done tweaking, I realized that all i really did compared to the wood pellets was increase the burn air from 2 to 6 (out of 9).*
> 
> Gave good heat, so if I get any more of them, only thing I'm going to do is lower the pellet feed one notch.....seems like i went through those 4 bags pretty fast, (but I don't know what they weighed either).



The feed and trim are the same as pellets I have burned in the other test's. But I went to 14 on the mag gauge from 12.5. I basically just bumped up the air on the damper. Looks like they burn a bit faster than switchgrass. So I may drop it to 13.5 or lower(close the damper) on the magnahelic gauge.

I will post the temps shortly. I just want to make sure I got the burn right and the stove is to full temp. I will take an average just like the other pellet tests. So we can see how close they are to an average pellet. More for my benefit.


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## joefraser (Jan 20, 2010)

I found an article on a study of the grass pellets: http://www.grassbioenergy.org/res/pellet_stove_demo.asp
I don't have a multi-fuel so its a no for me....


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## schoondog (Jan 20, 2010)

Nice Jay!! As much as I would like to have the time and gather some data that would be useful to everyone and save you from more work, I think the only way to get reliable data on the grass is to have you do the testing. I think I am going to get enough grass to run at a reasonable rate for a week and see if I can get a Sunday to Sunday before doing a good clean. Then I will have a good idea of how different the grass pellet is from wood pellets. So I am now awaiting Jtakemans blessing of the pellet! Let the testing begin !!

Schoondog


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## imacman (Jan 20, 2010)

Just something I forgot to include in my post above, is the issue of the amount of ash with these pellets......the 4% figure has to be pretty close, if not higher.  When my stove finally ran out tonight, and I spent a LONG time cleaning it....that ash was EVERYWHERE and it was THICK!   The ash pan was full, and I had to empty my little 2.5 gal. vacuum after I was done too.

I also noticed that the glass was sooted over pretty good, and some of it wouldn't clean off with just wet paper towel....I had to revert to using some ash to get it clean.  Not a big deal, just an observation.

I guess for me, right now I'd have to decide if the lower price is worth all the ash issues.  I can envision doing full cleanings of the stove, blowers, ash traps, etc, etc (like I'd do after a ton of wood pellets) after 10-15 bags, at most.


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## schoondog (Jan 20, 2010)

I agree wholeheartedly. The downside of this pellet is the ash. Thats why I would like to get enough to see if I can run for a week. If I can't get a week run time I would have to think about using this pellet.

Schoondog


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## jtakeman (Jan 20, 2010)

My issue so far is the low temp average 220ºF. I would need more to keep warm in the real cold weather. But they will be good for the shoulders. Doing the pellet test's have spoiled me and some of the heat numbers I have seen. Still to soon to make the call. I need to see the ash volume and weight. Just wished they had more heat!

Edit: I had this evening to really play with the burn and feed on these. I got the temp to 240ºF and the burn where I like it. I went to feed 3 trim 5(more fuel) and draft set with magnahelic to 13.5. That brings my feed from 3.81 lbs/hr. to 4.22 lbs/hr. I should have more than enough for the extreme cold. But its really using up the fuel quickly. My burnpot has more ash than I ever seen from any 2 bags of fuel(Including corn). But the house is nice and warm.

I should finish them tonight and hopefully have a chance to weight the ash. I will have to go back to pellets for a bit. Going to meet schoondog tomorrow night for some more. But its back to pellet testing for now.

Edit: Finished! here is the pebbles and overall volume of ash.  Ash weight is 34.24 ounces and the ash was at 3.1%!


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## jtakeman (Jan 24, 2010)

More info on grass pellets.

http://www.enviroenergyny.com/

looks like this is catching on!


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## schoondog (Jan 24, 2010)

I just finished a good clean of my stove and am going to burn the 4 bags of grass/goldenrod and see what I get. Jtakeman I expected there would be more ash and your test certainly showed that. I'm going to see how things go with the next batch.
Schoondog


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## jtakeman (Jan 24, 2010)

http://www.ernstseed.com/biomass_view.aspx?id=1880

Some info on switchgrass.

Schoon, Keep me posted. DJ thinks it should produce more heat for you.


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## schoondog (Jan 25, 2010)

http://m.www.yahoo.com/_ylt=AoLUgop...//biz.yahoo.com/ap/100124/ml_iran_budget.html

Not good at posting links , hope link works. With all the talk about oil vs. biomass, this alone makes me want to tell them to stick there oil, regardless of what kind of bio you are burning to keep warm or what it costs.

Schoondog


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## jtakeman (Jan 26, 2010)

http://www.reap-canada.com/

Another interesting read!

I finally found the info on the switch grass ash content. Check attachment!

I remember reading about a straw pellet that's ash was in the 2% range. I can't find it now. I also was reading somewhere about corn stalk pellets. I will keep looking.


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## imacman (Jan 26, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> Another interesting read!
> 
> I finally found the info on the switch grass ash content. Check attachment!



Interesting how much better the switchgrass is after sitting fallow in the field over the winter....cuts the ash just about in half, and the heat went up a little.


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## jtakeman (Jan 26, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

> jtakeman said:
> 
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From what I have read, Its is left uncut until the spring. Lets the minerals leach back into the soil. The minerals are what cause the higher ash content. 

Boy its hard to beat good old fashioned wood! But corn seems the closest at 1.13% ash!

Edit: Corn wood pellet mix info
http://www.eaglebio-fuels.com/products.html

agra pellet mix info
http://www.sunriseagrafuels.com/sunriseagrafuels/myheadline.asp?S=149&P=17043&PubID=4543

More reading!
http://www.biomassmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=1218

More fuel info Rice hulls
Bases: rice hull

Specifications: Diameter: 6MM--8MM

Length: 15MM--25MM

Calorie: ≥3800KCAL/KG

Moisture: ≤12%

*Ash≤1.1%*

Density≥1100KG/M3


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## smirnov3 (Jan 26, 2010)

the problem with switchgrass is the high silica content

that's why the CL guy is selling pellets made from Timothy grass

You know, the original wood pellets were used as 'horse bedding' (ie kitty litter for horses). Now we're use horse fodder to make pellets. What's up with this connection between pellet stoves and horses?


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## schoondog (Jan 27, 2010)

Well..... I've got 3 bags into the hopper. Heat is OK. I would compare to a pennington. I know what many of you are going to say. But these are not magic pellets. Ash is ..... high. Not as bad as all grass, but high. I knew this. But the stove is burning them  and I am heating the house on grass and goldenrod. This batch he made is high in goldenrod I believe. So far so good. i think I may be able to get to Sunday afternoon before cleaning the stove.
   We were hoping that these pellets would be good and we might have a great new resource for fuel. I am hoping right now that they will be a reasonable shoulder season pellet. If I can get 3 55 gal. drums full I may get a ton in the summer/fall. The burlap bags aren't the greatest. there are fines and the worst is the ash. I think right now the best plan for these pellets may be in commercial boilers and such. Perhaps stove makers will make new machines that will do a better job with the ash. On the good side is a new batch of heat can be made in 70-90 days. Not 20-100 years for a tree or 10-20,000,000 years for oil. I guess I can make some concessions for that. If I can get a week of burning I will get a ton for fall/spring /warmer weather duty and  a ton of good hot stuff for real cold duty. Maybe some corn and then a few bags here and there for testing to keep things interesting should round out my heating season 3 ton needs.     Just my thoughts. 

Schoondog


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## imacman (Jan 27, 2010)

Schoon, if you get a week of straight burning without cleaning, you have a better stove than me.  I made 4 days, and the ash in the firebox was up past the bottom of the glass about 1 1/2", and the ash pan was full.  Yeah, I figured out how to burn them in my stove, but, man, what a mess to clean!!

If DJ can get his price lower than wood pellets (and I don't mean just a couple of dollars), then I'd buy them and deal w/ the ash.


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## jtakeman (Jan 27, 2010)

My thoughts are about the same as macman's. Reduced price and I would deal with the ash amount. But if the cost is just slightly less than wood pellets? It's a no brainer for me. I will spend a bit extra for a much cleaner burn. But getting a lower cost may take a large mill with high volume process to get the price into a more affordable price range. Low volume producers may not be able to sell at what we would call a reasonable cost!

With what I burned it would be a full ash pan in a week of burning grass. That would be well over a month of burning pellets. But we did gain another option just in case the wood pellet market hits the skids. Options are good. So is also corn for some of us(burns a bit cleaner too!). I will probably get some just to help DJ keep going. 

I do like the 90 yield factor, Same as corn. Produce the winter supply in one season. Not 40 so years to reproduce the the supply. 

jay


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## smirnov3 (Jan 27, 2010)

has anybody tried the grass pellets in a Harmon? 

with Harmon's design, I think it would be able to tolerate a higher ash pellet better than most stoves


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## imacman (Jan 27, 2010)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> has anybody tried the grass pellets in a Harmon?
> 
> with Harmon's design, I think it would be able to tolerate a higher ash pellet better than most stoves



It's not an issue with "tolerating" the higher ash....my stove, Jay's, & Schoondog's all are burning the pellets fine...it's just a matter of having to clean the stove MUCH more often.  Why would a Harman be any better at that?   Maybe there's something I'm missing???


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## jtakeman (Jan 27, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

> Anton Smirnov said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think you missed anything. He still would be scraping daily and empting the ash pan weekly. I wish he would try them and tell us his thoughts. The only harman that is in our multifuel class is the PC45. IMHO the operator with a standard harman would be the mixer-stirrer or agitator in the burn pot. *They would be tending to the mess more than they think.*

just me 2cents worth!


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## schoondog (Jan 28, 2010)

I read here that some folks clean their stove daily. If you have a multi fuel stove and clean each day well... maybe these pellets will do it for ya. I shut the stove down tonight after 4 bags and am going to give it a quick clean and go back to wood pellets. My buddy at work tried to burn grass with his Country Winslow and could not get through the first bag, so I have more now but will need to clean first. Mac and Jtakeman have very good points in that more monetary saving would need to be realized due to the added amount of maintenance these pellets will require. I'm willing to do more work to help environment, but I don't know. Can't be cleaning the stove each day. I will see what happens. Now that wood pellet prices are dropping, makes these pellets even harder to deal with. Still love the idea and they are close to being good, but the ash is pretty bad. I'll try to take some photos and post , but not tonight.
Schoondog


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## smirnov3 (Jan 28, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> macman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was referring to the fact that harmon uses a sloped burn pot, so ash is automatically pushed out by the new pellets.
Though an agitator in a traditional burn pot is another solution to the same problem. 

I forgot that your stove had one when I originally posted.


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## jtakeman (Jan 28, 2010)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> jtakeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Anton,

I wish you could try some and give us a report on them. There are a few other Harman owner would like to also hear your results.

jay


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## Grassman (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi everyone  Hope you don't mind if I join in conversation.  As for Harmon users yes I do know of some people burning these pellets in Harmon stoves I have not heard any complaints about ash.  Most people burning these pellets are emptying the ash pans at 2.5 to 3 day intervals. DJ


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## jtakeman (Jan 28, 2010)

DJ said:
			
		

> Hi everyone  Hope you don't mind if I join in conversation.  As for Harmon users yes I do know of some people burning these pellets in Harmon stoves I have not heard any complaints about ash.  Most people burning these pellets are emptying the ash pans at 2.5 to 3 day intervals. DJ



DJ,

Welcome to the forums.

Thanks for joining in with us. I am sure there are a few that really want to pick your brain. Fellow members "DJ" is the one making these pellets for us. 

Very glad that you join us here!
jay


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## imacman (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi DJ, 

glad you decided to come on board.  I'm sure having you here will help with any questions that other users will have.  And since you obviously have read what we've written, maybe you can shed some light on your future plans for your pellets. 

Welcome!


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## Grassman (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks for warm welcome. Grass pellets are a new fuel you first users are probably some of the first people in the US to use the fuel outside a university research center.  Hopefully through use we will all learn about the fuel and how it is best burned.  I have  experience using the fuel in just a few stoves not all.  So I am always looking for feedback in how it performs in other stoves.  I will gladly answer any questions.DJ


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## fedtime (Jan 29, 2010)

Does anyone know of a source for grass pellets in either Nova Scotia or New Brunswick?  I'd love to try some in my Harman Accentra.  I've also wondered how my stove would handle the increased ash typically associated with grass pellets given I noticed a substantial reduction in ash with the Harman compared to my old Enviro pellet stove when burning wood pellets. 

And thanks to all of you for posting on this topic - I am reading each one with great interest.


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## jtakeman (Jan 29, 2010)

DJ,

Way back on post 18, tinkabranc asked about the moisture content. Do you have any info on that?

Thanks.


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## schoondog (Jan 29, 2010)

DJ   Welcome to the forum. Many good folks were.  You may get busy answering all the questions.  Anyone burning these in a commercial application i.e boiler or large furnace ? Mark 
Schoondog


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## Grassman (Jan 29, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK3O6GBr4Ho
I don't know if you guys have seen this vid about commercial use.  As far as boiler use only use is experimental at universities or state level. DJ


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## Grassman (Jan 29, 2010)

Jay sorry for mixed up replies,  as far as pellet MC  feedstock is close to 12% mill when hot will flash off 5-6% so pellet is 6-7%  probably picks up some moisture from atmosphere so pellet is probably around 8% I will check some  pellets that are too wet I send back through mill to flash off extra moisture. We always run old stock through mill to keep MC in pellet less than 10% so it is burnable. Getting to the post about device ash handling . Stoves that have roots in burning coal have the ability to burn high  ash fuels .  Ie stoker underfed burners and big ash storage capacities . See vid in previous post DJ


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## jtakeman (Jan 29, 2010)

Thanks DJ!


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## schoondog (Feb 1, 2010)

Here are a few more pics I took after 4 bags of burning. I could have gone a little more, but ran out of grass. Also with low temps . on the way I wanted a little hotter pellet. One nice thing is no hard carbon in burn pot, as matter of fact I didn't have to clean it at all. Usually after a week (8-12 bags or so) I have a pretty decent build up of carbon in the pot that I have to bang outand soak in hot water. Worst part of the weekly/bi weekly clean I think. Usually though my pan has enough capacity to go for 2-3 weeks. Grass would be a 4-7 day empty. Man I wish these things had a little less ash.

Schoondog


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## daydreamer (Feb 1, 2010)

Looks like a lot of ash.


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## imacman (Feb 1, 2010)

Yep Schoon, that looks just like mine after the 4 bags i burned.  The "pebble" ash in the pan is kinda weird, right?


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## jtakeman (Feb 1, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

> Yep Schoon, that looks just like mine after the 4 bags i burned.  The "pebble" ash in the pan is kinda weird, right?



Yep! same for me too! I didn't have to touch the burnpot as far as chipping out the carbon goes. I just had to brush out them pebbles. But I think my vac got the beating of its very long life time(same vac for the last 10 years)! Wood fiber must have more slag in it or something. Almost every pellet I tested had some slag I had to chip out with a chisel.

As schoon said, Just wished it had a bit less ash, I really want to burn it myself. I may also get some more to play around with too! 

Schoon, DJ said he wood mess around with other stock a while back. I dumped my email and forgot the exact statement he made. You are the closest. Maybe he can play around and you try them. You guys figure out something, I will test it and post result here. I really would like to see something work.

DJ, I have heard of some fiber that may interest some of us. It is used coffee grounds. I have no idea where we could get any. But from what I hear it make a very good pellet that burns very hot. Something to think about or mull over? I posted something here a while back but it died quickly. I know they are making fire logs from them out west and experimenting with pellets too.

jay


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## imacman (Feb 1, 2010)

Schoon, does the burnpot always end up with new unburned pellets in it after you shut it down?   I understand that some of that ash might have fallen off the back wall, but that's a lot of pellets in there.


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## schoondog (Feb 1, 2010)

Macman'
  Yea I see what you are saying. As I remember it was very late night and I told wife to shut down stove so I could clean real quick before changing back to wood pellets when I got home.  I was in a hurry and banged the sides a few times then remembered to take a few pics. Thats why the ash on top of the pellets. I'm not sure why there is so many pellets in the pot. Auger still full of pellets and my stove will move auger slowly during shutdown to alleviate chance of hopper fire, or so I read. I guess thats why the unburned pellets.

Schoondog


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## Grassman (Feb 1, 2010)

Hi guys: Ash looks good no big clinkers only small balls fused silica. I have seen some clinkers fused in the shape of the burn pot from some unretted switch grass.  Ash content at 3.1% what Jay tested is as good as it gets with grass pellets, maybe the pure goldenrod pellets will be a little less in the 2% range because stem to leaf ratio is high. leaves and seed pods are responsible for most of the ash in grass pellets. You really want only stems.  The black slag that schoon is talking about could be from dirt  see any blue in it?. Jay you could add to your testing a simple water test. put pellet in water does it sink? then let pellet dissolve some don't.  Then shake up dissolved pellet let settle see what floats and what sinks. Doing this gives you a good idea what the pellet is made from.  I will run off some pure golden rod this week .  DJ


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## schoondog (Feb 1, 2010)

Dj ,     I would like to try the all golden rod pellet. I thought about that, the higher the golden rod the hotter the burn and less ash dueto no leaves. I was reading on one of the grass websites yesterday that most of the ash is from leaves and something else that is part of or left on the stem of the grass. I thought about a higher % of golden rod would make a better pellet, but thought that it would be too hard to produce or seperate from the grass. But if you can do it I would love to try it. Let me know. 

Schoondog


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## imacman (Feb 1, 2010)

Me too DJ.  If you can get an all Goldenrod pellet that was just stalks, and around 2% ash, I'd give them a shot.  Besides, I have 4 bags I have to return to you, and would like to come check out the operation.

Oh, and just to let you know....the dog LOVES the grass pellets.....she hung around when I was running them through the pellet cleaner in case one dropped on the floor..... :lol:


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## jtakeman (Feb 1, 2010)

macman, schoon. I want in on them goldenrods too. I also want to see the operation. Lets make some plan's. 2 birds one stone with a pellet swap ta boot(macman and I have to swap some pellets).

DJ I will do the water test later today or tomorrow. I kept a sample from the pellets I got from Mike and I haven't even tried the all grass I traded schoon for.

Schoon how did you like the Okies????

jay


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## imacman (Feb 1, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> macman, schoon. I want in on them goldenrods too. I also want to see the operation. Lets make some plan's. 2 birds one stone with a pellet swap ta boot(macman and I have to swap some pellets)......



Sounds good to me Jay......Schoon, you in?


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## schoondog (Feb 1, 2010)

yup     let me know. I'm pretty busy but lets see what we come up with.   Jay.... did not burn okies yet, coulda shoulda burned them this weekend, but I'm waiting for just the right time. 
Schoondog


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## Fsappo (Feb 1, 2010)

Ok, I just got doing some experiments with some grass pellets made by some folks down near Unadilla.  I saved 2 bags to compare them with DJs.  I have been monitoring the thread and am ready to try his pellets out in two of my stoves.  The Europa, of course and also the Magnum Countryside. I left a phone message with DJ and also sent them an email.

I'll say the grass pellets I have been burning in the Europa burned fine.  A lot more ash (Had to empty the ash pan in 2 days instead of 30-40 days) The heat was actually close to what a wood pellet would give. That could be how the Europa burns, not sure.  I'll try to snap some photos before and after, etc.  I dont have time to open programs and reformat stuff.  When I get the pics, if I could email them to someone, they could post them maybe for me.  That is unless we can post pics yet just by clicking nice and easy (the craigslist method)

The grass pellets I just burned were Timothy grass mixed with what I was told was "Hay that had a low protein content" as well as "scrub grass and shrubs"  They were selling for about $220 per ton and when I checked, their 40lb bags weighed 40lbs.


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## jtakeman (Feb 1, 2010)

Franks,

I will PM my email addy. You can send the pict's to me and I will edit for the forum

Jay


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## Fsappo (Feb 1, 2010)

Thanks, I'm talking to DJ now.  He is probably wondering why I'm typing while on the phone.  I'll keep you guys posted.


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## Grassman (Feb 2, 2010)

OK: let me know when you guys want to come over .  If you want to make some coffee pellets as Jay suggested,  bring some coffee  grinds along 1-3 5 gal buckets full need a lot to load die, and I will make sure the  die is hot . I am always interested in pelletizing different feed stocks. DJ


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## imacman (Feb 2, 2010)

DJ said:
			
		

> .....If you want to make some coffee pellets as Jay suggested,  bring some coffee  grinds along 1-3 5 gal buckets full need a lot to load die.........



YIKES!   :lol:   I'd have to ask Dunkin Donuts to save their grounds for a week to get that much......


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## jtakeman (Feb 2, 2010)

macman said:
			
		

> DJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have heard that most of the coffee shoppes will save the grounds for you. Some people use it as compost in the garden and flower beds. I have a buddy that was extremely interested in the coffee pellets. I will see if he saved grounds or has a place to get them.

I would have to get him a few bags to burn! I would bet there some of the best smelling pellts around though!


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## Grassman (Feb 2, 2010)

A one pound bag of coffee will probably make 20 pellets who knows the stuff is dense.  My wife stops at a coffee place in the morning. Maybe she can ask them . they probably have 3-4 pales of grounds a day. I am sure a coffee pellet has high btus. DJ


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## Grassman (Feb 2, 2010)

Interesting follow up on btus and ash see coffee grounds http://www.balboa-pacific.com/WasteToEnergy/BTU_Values.pdf  DJ


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## jtakeman (Feb 2, 2010)

10,000 BTU/lbs. is more than interesting. That is something I definitly want to try.

Here is a little reading about the pellets.

http://www.biomassmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2419

Looks like we need a grounds source?


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## Grassman (Feb 3, 2010)

Anybody burning any yet ??


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## jtakeman (Feb 3, 2010)

DJ said:
			
		

> Anybody burning any yet ??



Don't think so DJ, From what I got they are just starting to begin processing them. It will be some time before they hit the market.

Only issue I see. Is they are adding parifin wax(5%). Not sure how good that may be for the stove. There using it as a binder.

Maybe we could try grass or Goldenrod?


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## Grassman (Feb 4, 2010)

Ok Jay, Coffee grounds this is really interesting stuff. First the bean is retted same as grass feed stock then it is roasted or torrified see http://www.biomassmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2407 for discussion. This is the future of all biomass feed stocks some pellet companies are experimenting already.  The emissions from the wax binder could be a issue.  Jay you are rite in suggesting the use of a second feed stock that has  lingen eliminating the wax, at some pressure / temp. relationship the particles will probably lock up DJ


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## Enerjet (Feb 14, 2010)

Hey guys any new updates on how these are burning?


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## jtakeman (Feb 14, 2010)

Enerjet said:
			
		

> Hey guys any new updates on how these are burning?



Looks like we are taking a trip to see DJ on Saturday afternoon. Looking at picking up some all goldenrod pellets and maybe some coffee ground pellets mixed with a form of wood as a binder.

We will keep you posted.


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## imacman (Feb 14, 2010)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> ......and maybe some coffee ground pellets mixed with a form of wood as a binder......



When your neighbors smell it, they'll think a Starbucks or DD opened next door...... :lol:


Yep, jtakeman, schoondog, and myself getting together sat to swap some pellets, and see what's new in the grass pellet world.


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## jtakeman (Feb 21, 2010)

FYI,

We(macman, schoondog, a friend, and myself) went to see DJ's operation. I had a blast and could have stayed forever. Just like being in the candy store. I was impressed with what DJ has put together with a lot of sweat equity! Definitely need to go again sometime and spend some more time there. 

DJ, Thanks for rolling out the red carpet for us. I appreciate all the info you gave me about your mill and process. I learned a lot and want to learn more. I really hope what you are doing will take off.

I picked up 2 bags of the goldenrod pellets for an official like test for ash comparision. I also have 2 bags of grass I plan to mix with wood pellets. Trying to figure out what may work as far as a grass to wood percentage. Thinking 25% grass may do nicely. And yes we did make some coffee pellets. I will let another member give the details on those. Its his brain child. I just tagged along on that.

I really hope we can get something in the lower ash range(less than 2%) that burns hot. It would be neat to support a local mill and his product. *Just seems like the right thing to do!*

I was craving donuts all night, I wonder why?


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## Jan99 (Feb 21, 2010)

Sounds like an interesting time. Can't wait for the reviews.



Cream, no sugar and 1 plain cruller please 


edit:  tx for the Biomass Mag link, I just subscribed...looks fascinating.


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## Grassman (Feb 21, 2010)

I really enjoyed meeting all of you yesterday. Sorry I didn't have more time to talk but pelleting new feedstocks is always a little challenging.  I can not wait to get the coffee pellet burn feedback. I still think that the future is to shorten the burn cycle and make char not ash. Then you would turn your pellet stove into a 24 hr money machine. Char currently is 2$/lb.  with 25% yield you could make 1000$/ton,  and not have to deal with any ash.  DJ


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## Grainstovesman (Feb 25, 2010)

We are experimenting with a pellet mill from P.E.I. in Canada ... comes out of Europe ... Makes good Coffee Pellets with a simple liquid binder. If interested I can supply the web address ... Chris


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## jtakeman (Feb 26, 2010)

Grainstovesman said:
			
		

> We are experimenting with a pellet mill from P.E.I. in Canada ... comes out of Europe ... Makes good Coffee Pellets with a simple liquid binder. If interested I can supply the web address ... Chris



Not really interested in the pellet mill, But I would like to hear about them there coffee pellets your makin. How do they burn?

Hopefully I can try my batch of coffee this weekend. Mine has a lot of grass in the mix. So it will just be a "heat" test for me. coffeeman keeps asking me at work if we tried them yet? But honestly I just got lazy and enjoying just being a plain old pellet burner. 

schoondog or macman, Have you tried the goldenrod or coffee pellets yet? 

I may also try the goldenrods and do a test of there ash content. If there is time I might do a 1 bag grass/pellet mix. I am thinking 75% wood and 25% grass, again checking the ash content. If its decent I will increase the grass to 40% and try again.


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## Grainstovesman (Feb 26, 2010)

To pellet coffee grounds you need to dry the grounds down and mix in a binder keeping track of the ratio ... that's because it will depend on your press.

We are using both an extruder and a press.

The binder for the extruder is a secret but i can tell you it is a glue of sorts made from organic material that is also a waste product and free ... that's enough clues !

The press requires a binder that will supply a lubricant and also a binder ... molasses works ...just add to the steam going in ... dilute it first.

The ash coming off is of a reddish colour and is very fine ...the consistency of the type of ash you get from burning incense .. that's for you guys who experienced the 60's ... Jimi Hendrix pelleted I think .. ARE YOU EXPERIENCED !

The btu value for coffee is 10,500 btu per lb.  but that is coffee with all the oils .. since this is waste coffee some if not the majority of oil is gone ...but it should still be very high in btu. 

No creosote, little CO, and really not an objectionable small .. not really a coffee smell though.


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## jtakeman (Feb 26, 2010)

Grainstovesman said:
			
		

> To pellet coffee grounds you need to dry the grounds down and mix in a binder keeping track of the ratio ... that's because it will depend on your press.
> 
> We are using both an extruder and a press.
> 
> ...



Awesome, Thanks for the info. No need to give away your secrets. 

I am definetly putting mine through the stove tomorrow night. I got about 50 lbs from the start up. Has a lot of Timothy grass in the mix. Don't know the ratio, But if they burn good? Maybe thats what I might ask for. DJ is the master pellet maker. I just want to burn them. If we find a ratio that has lower ash than the straight grass had. And they got some heat, I might just have to start saving some grounds.


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## schoondog (Feb 26, 2010)

I have been using the golderod pellets ( a nice DJ product ) and mixing them 50/50  with a wood pellet (penningtons) for the last week. They have been going very well. I believe I will be able to reach my goal of cleaning the stove once a week, even though I did a quick clean yesterday since I lost power due to the storm. By the time I got home to get generator started stove was cool and I had a little time on my hands I checked it out and cleaned up. Wasn't as ashy as I thought it may have been. Heat has been good, 145-160* on low/ medium ranges. This is fine for shoulder season duty. House is very warm. Glass has been dirty no matter how much comb. air I give it. Small price to pay for using these pellets. The price is about $190-200 a ton here in the land of $300 a ton wood pellets. I dried the coffee pellets at work for the last few days and they have become quite popular. As the guys go by the hot tank I have them on they flip the bag for me. Today a few of the guys had a pellet in hot water trying to revive it back into coffee. They have been calling me alexahenty (sic) on the radio. All in fun. I will burn my bag of coffee pellets tomorrow night or Saturday and get some readings. I am beginning to save some grounds now for batch #2. I will definitely be drying them out on this round.

Schoondog

Thanks to coffee man and jtakeman for the coffee!!


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## Grassman (Feb 26, 2010)

Here is another read on roasting http://www.physorg.com/news186157583.html DJ


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## jtakeman (Feb 26, 2010)

DJ said:
			
		

> Here is another read on roasting http://www.physorg.com/news186157583.html DJ



DJ,

Interesting, But it sounds like they are saying to do the "torrefaction" before pelletizing the biomass.





> For example, they want to know whether the deeply dried biomass is easier to compact into pellets or briquettes.



It will increase the density and reduce the moisture. Should increase the heat output of the end product. But will you be able to pelletize the grass with out the moisture in the feed stock? I wonder if you torrefied the pellets after pelletizing if it would have the similar results. It probably wouldn't increase density, But would reduce the moisture content anyway.

I am willing to play if you are.

jay


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## Grassman (Feb 26, 2010)

Jay  I have experimented with roasting the grass density heat transfer challenges need lots more work on this although it is probably the future, with torrification you can unify your feed stock so theoretically you can take all types of biomass and make a good pellet. It has real potential as a fuel for power plants because it will not absorb any water you can co-fire with  wet coal slurry's.  The feed stock that I torrified last Feb March we left out in a pile still dry as a bone you cold go out today shovel off the snow and lite up the pile.  My father burns the stuff by the pick up load in his big wood furnace he claims it burns just like coal.  We need to have a long discussion about this you are on the track with the coffee blend becuase it is torrified .  I am very intrested in the burn feed back on these pellets.


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## jtakeman (Feb 26, 2010)

I am going to do a quick clean and I will toss them in. I will start with 30lbs for now to see how they go. Saved 20 lbs in case I need to mix them with some wood pellets.

Wish I knew the grass ratio on these. I will keep you posted and put up some burn pictures. Probably will not tally the ash on these. Getting a bit lazy here. I will save it for the goldenrods.

Got the craving for donuts again! Boston creme sounds nice!


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## jtakeman (Feb 26, 2010)

Yahoo, I be burning coffee! They seem to burn pretty nice. So far so good. Nice bright orange/Yellow flame. 

Temp average 226ºF Peaked at 241ºF

We started with wet grounds, I would bet the heat would come up if the moisture level was lower.

Here's a pick of the burn!


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## Grassman (Feb 27, 2010)

Really good flame color your rite about moisture now the question is the ash? did you have to turn up the air? DJ


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## jtakeman (Feb 27, 2010)

DJ,

Its the exact same as the wood pellets I was just running. I think I could actually reduce it a bit. But because of the grass I left it be. I am burning on low right now as the house is up to temp. Still a nice bright flame. I do see some light gray ash in the burn pot from the grass that is in the mix. But nothing major so far. I will run the full 50 lbs because its running so good.

Love to see what a drier mix with just some wood as a binder would do. But I am liking this batch so far! Hope we can reproduce this if we need to. We definetly need to control the mix so we can see what makes them tick as they say. 

I hope coffee man tries his soon, He has the mostly wood mix.

jay


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## Grassman (Feb 27, 2010)

Some video Stan Hirson shot last weekend while making pellets ,some of you met him he left early lots of steam from wet feed stock.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OI7aaiGLig If the snow ever stops I am going to dig out torrefied chip pile run it through the hammer mill and mix with some grass  see how it burns. DJ


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## schoondog (Mar 1, 2010)

Burned my coffee bag last night. 150-160* discharge temp. on medium (4 of 9 auto) Had the manual damper open a little wider than I would for a good wood pellet and about the same as the 50/50 grass/wood. Not much hotter than the golderod/ wood pellets have been doing. I was hoping the coffee would be a little hotter, but I think if I get the grounds dry and get them into the hammermill with the grass, the pellet would be homogenized and better formed and hopefully hotter. Ash was not really a problem, but I would rather burn a few bags before making a statement about coffee ash. I hope I can get enough grounds dried to burn a few bags before the heating season is over.

Schoondog


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## Grassman (Mar 1, 2010)

Scoon.  Sounds good  I have a big old wood stove here we could rig up to dry the grounds. I am going to see a few of the local DD shops drop some pails off. Because of the water in the grounds we never really got your pellets dense enough. I think the dense wood coffee blend pellets went to Ct. So I guess we will have to make some hot pellets to melt some of this snow here in NY. 

Also for any one who wants to burn these pellets before heating season is over  I am dropping the price to $150/ton. DJ


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## jtakeman (Mar 1, 2010)

I had 1 bag of the dense wood/coffee blend, But for the most part they fell apart. coffee man burned some, Were is he? I will bug him to post his results!

I will try to burn a bag of the goldenrods sometime this week and post the results.

Edit:

Here is the Ash from the coffee grass mix. 

Volume is 38 ounces.

Weight 22.4 ounces

Percentage 2.8%


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## ADVA (Mar 2, 2010)

DJ said:
			
		

> Scoon.  Sounds good  I have a big old wood stove here we could rig up to dry the grounds. I am going to see a few of the local DD shops drop some pails off. Because of the water in the grounds we never really got your pellets dense enough. I think the dense wood coffee blend pellets went to Ct. So I guess we will have to make some hot pellets to melt some of this snow here in NY.
> 
> Also for any one who wants to burn these pellets before heating season is over  I am dropping the price to $150/ton. DJ



Looking forward to seeing what you pros make in a higher BTU coffee pellet.
These ones your selling at 150ton.
Does anyone have a test on them?
Looking for the ash content/makup of these too.
I wonder what kind of a pellet a tea bag could make.
Say a coffee/tea combo?
This way everyone is satisfied!


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## ADVA (Mar 2, 2010)

Okanagan's/Turman's/Barefoots/Green Team/Somerset/Dragon Mtn./Spruce Pts./Pure Fire:
Heading out to East PA from N NJ on Wednesday afternoon.

I never burned any of these pellets & want to give them a try.

Will be traveling 80W thru NJ & on 611/512/191 thru Bangor on into Nazareth PA.

These are hard to get in NJ.
Hoping someone could point me in the right direction :cheese:


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## imacman (Mar 2, 2010)

Well, the coffee test is on for me in about an hour.  I'm only burning the stove on 1-1 today, since it was 47 °F out, but the hopper is almost empty, and I just whipped-up a batch of 50/50 coffee pellets and Lignetics hardwood.  I'm going to try this first, before trying all coffee......we'll see.

BTW, I really think we need to dry & hammermill the coffee before pelletizing.......they didn't lock-up too well.....massive amount of "fines" in my bag.  They seem kinda soft, but not as bad as I thought they'd be.

I'll report back when I get a "handle' on how they burn.


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## Grassman (Mar 3, 2010)

I scraped up some of the leftover dry coffee dregs under the mill this after noon and sent them back through. Made a nice pellet. I put some in the gasifier smoked black needed more air. Definitely more dense fuel than the grass. Key is to dry then hammer and mix.  Need more coffee now several hundred lbs so we can mix up a 1 ton batch then run it .


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## schoondog (Mar 3, 2010)

I'm trying to find time to get buckets together to start saving in larger quantity. Got a few stores that said they would save the grounds and I have a place to dry them. Never have any time though, always rushing around.  Got some saved though. Hopefully have a few more done by the end of the week.

Schoondog


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## jtakeman (Mar 8, 2010)

I have been *playing* a bit with the wood/grass pellets mix. I started with 60/40 pellets/grass and burned about 80 LBS. or so. I am using Currans which I purchase at lowes with a 10% off coupon.(Currans base heat was 228ºF and ash amount was about 0.48%) SORRY No pictures of the jars of ash. I am getting lazy and ready for spring. All stove settings were the same as the other tests.

Results: "Still to much ash to deal with but very close".

Heat average was 223ºF

Ash volume was 34 ounces

Ash weight was 21.89 ounces

Ash percentage was 1.71%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I then tried the 75/25 pellets/grass mix. Again I burned about 80 lbs. or so.

Results: *"Acceptable".*  Pretty close to the corn ash percentage.

Heat average was 226ºF

Ash volume was 28 ounces

Ash weight 16.128 ounces

Ash percentage was 1.26%
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Looks like I could burn them at 25% to 30%, Should work decent. I am going to burn a 6 bag(240 lbs.) run at 25% and see what its like. That's about a weeks worth or more with this warm weather. Looks like I may buy some grass pellets to extend my wood pellet usage! Then I will try the goldenrod pellets to see what there ash percentage is.

Is it spring yet??????????????????????????????????????????


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## andyc (Mar 9, 2010)

Jay,what's the price for the grass...no pun intended.
Andy


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## jtakeman (Mar 9, 2010)

DJ's last price announcement was $150/ton. a deal if the stove you have can handle the increased ash.


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## Grassman (Mar 9, 2010)

Hi guys, Looks like blending is a good option . One customer is burning in the big TSP furnace King LX ?  Is that the model.? big hopper. Had too much ash straight so now is burning a mix of 5 bags grass 2 bags corn. No more ash problems. He turned fuel feed down to 2.  I am trying to get him to join the list.   Yes the price is 150 ton . DJ


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## jtakeman (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey DJ,

I have been trying to join the iburncorn forum, But there slow taking new entries. Figure I'd see if there is some interest there for the grass and your other ventures in pellet making. I will let you know when I am in and see who is interested in them.

I will try a corn grass mix if the temps stay low, But with this weather I am only burning a little bit in the morning and maybe some in the afternoon. Otherwise the stove is off, Which is nice! 

Burn grass(well some anyway) not gas!
jay


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## schoondog (Mar 10, 2010)

I have been mixing the goldenrod with wood pellets 50/50 and its working well. My plan for next year is to purchase 2 tons of good, hot pellets and then mix in 50% grass/goldenrod/coffee ( 1 ton ) mix for shoulder season. I still want to check my chimney for ash/? buildup before I pull the trigger. I hope I can score on 3 full open top 55 gallon drums to hold DJs pellets. We will see what happens. Hoping for a good late spring/summer deal on good pellets.

Schoondog


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## lmjr (Mar 11, 2010)

I realize you guys are just "Testing" some alternative "Bio Fuels" here now...couple bag of this and that...but
if you were to eventually get into some quantities (tons), do you have the vent pipe to handle the corrosion?

Outside of the basic wood pellet fuel the corrosion factor with other "Bio Fuels" will do a number on the 304 Stainless Steel commonly used in vents.

If you're already using a Multi-fuel Stove for Corn/Pellet and have a vent rated for that, you're not so bad off.

Just thinking here.


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## jtakeman (Mar 11, 2010)

Master of Smoke said:
			
		

> I realize you guys are just "Testing" some alternative "Bio Fuels" here now...couple bag of this and that...but
> if you were to eventually get into some quantities (tons), do you have the vent pipe to handle the corrosion?
> 
> Outside of the basic wood pellet fuel the corrosion factor with other "Bio Fuels" will do a number on the 304 Stainless Steel commonly used in vents.
> ...



Warnings were already covered on post #19 by *Red Alert Eric!* My vent is rated for the fuels I am burning and has 316 SS inner liner. Stove is also rated for grass,corn, High bark pellets, and so on! 

Not an issue with my install as I planned ahead. *Good warnings * to others as to match the vent setup to the fuels in use or future use. If the vent isn't rated for the fuels, I don't recommend burning them either. Safety first is the rule to follow!


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## Grassman (Mar 12, 2010)

It is true that ag. energy crops draw a lot of unwanted elements from the soil. Most of witch have to be dealt with when burned and the temps rise above 500 F. One of witch is Cl, it becomes a aerosol bonding with H and you have a spray of HCl going up your chimney.  Luckily  there are stainless alloys that can resist these acids.  We use  field retting to wash out the elements that will cause problems when burned, by leaving the cut grass in the field for 30 plus days and hopefully letting 3 to 5 inches of rain wash the grass. By doing this you can greatly reduce the  elements in the fuel  that will cause corrosion in your stove and chimney. Cl is highly water soluble and is easily washed out. But as mentioned in previous posts  always be safe check your chimney and stove to be sure that they are made of materials that are rated for ag. fuels. DJ


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## jtakeman (Mar 15, 2010)

I kind of hit a little something with my mix last week. I have been burning 50% decent hardwood pellets/25% hot burning softwood pellets/25% grass pellet mix. I have been getting very good temps over 240ºF on medium setting and less than 1% ash total. Ran the stove for a whole week and hardly noticed the difference from a mediocer low grade wood pellet. Except the heat was a lot better!

Today I tried something that might *please both the corn and grass farmers*. 40% hardwood/20% softwood/20%grass/20% corn. A bit early to say but the heat is again very good and so far the ash content looks good! I got a high temp of 246ºF   . I am going to burn this mix for a few days to see how it goes. But I like the heat. This mix will do even in the extreme cold weather for me.    

I am not letting this grass pellet beat me! even if it takes some corn and wood mixed in to get the heat up!


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## andyc (Mar 15, 2010)

Jay, how are you guys going about getting a consistant mix when blending the various pellet types? I would think you would also be increasing the amount of fines into the mix. I understand you are not in a large quantity/production vs. a testing situation, but for each auger drop do you feel you are getting the same ratio as your starting batch ratio.
Another thing I have been thinking about lately is has anyone ever tried using shredded paper to make pellets, I have not done any research on btu output, I would think ash could be a concern but with the amount of paper waste in this country, could it be viable. Just thinking. ....Possibly DJ has already tried it or might consider it. 
Andy


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## smirnov3 (Mar 15, 2010)

andyc said:
			
		

> Jay, how are you guys going about getting a consistant mix when blending the various pellet types? I would think you would also be increasing the amount of fines into the mix. I understand you are not in a large quantity/production vs. a testing situation, but for each auger drop do you feel you are getting the same ratio as your starting batch ratio.
> Another thing I have been thinking about lately is has anyone ever tried using shredded paper to make pellets, I have not done any research on btu output, I would think ash could be a concern but with the amount of paper waste in this country, could it be viable. Just thinking. ....Possibly DJ has already tried it or might consider it.
> Andy



There used to be a place up in Wisconsin  that sold paper pellets. they were 'industrial' grade: very high ash, about 2" long, and bendy.
no way those babies would work in a pellet stove.


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## Fsappo (Mar 15, 2010)

We somehow ended up with 2 bags of cardboard pellets.  I burned them in our countryside and they worked fine.  A little bendy and soft, lower heat and a lot of ash, but they burned.


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## Grassman (Mar 16, 2010)

Jay has discovered something really interesting with his multi pellet burns and the increase in temp.  He may have discovered the so called sweet spot .  I am going to make a wild guess at what could be happening, with the different pellets you have a range of densities from softwood at roughly 35lb. to corn at  roughly 50lb.  So the burn would start at softwood go to grass then hardwood and finally the corn.  This could make a long smooth high temp burn.  I have heard from other people burning the grass that as little as one kernel in the burn pot makes a deference.  Getting to the paper pellets yes lots of ash, I have also heard you may have emission problems with ink.  DJ


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## jtakeman (Mar 16, 2010)

andyc said:
			
		

> Jay, how are you guys going about getting a consistant mix when blending the various pellet types? I would think you would also be increasing the amount of fines into the mix. I understand you are not in a large quantity/production vs. a testing situation, but for each auger drop do you feel you are getting the same ratio as your starting batch ratio.
> Andy



Andy,

I am just mixing pellets in small fiber barrels( like cardboard size=7 gal.). They toss them out at work. So free for me. I blend by wieght to get my percentage real close. Blend is basically just dumping from one barrel to the other. After the blend I screen it with my corn screener. I have multiple screen sizes so I screen with 1/16 inch just to remove the fines. Its crued but it works. 

I like this corn/grass/wood mix. I actually turned the stove to the 2(medium low setting) and its still has plenty of heat to raise the temps in the shoulders. Ash level looks pretty decent but still more than just straight clean wood pellets. Will have to see how the prices fair for spring buy, Before I make any firm decisions on whats next for purchasing. On the fence for now.

jay


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## asabatelli (Sep 22, 2010)

I'm looking into buying a stove to burn the grass pellets in.  Right now I'm leaning toward the Harmon P38--the bottom feed feature should push the excess ash out of the way.  The P38, though, only has two control knobs--a feed rate and a fan blower speed (no draft/air control), which worries me a bit.  The P43 has more controls (and auto ignition), but is also pricier...  Just wondered if anyone had any opinions.  DJ tells me the Harmons all do a great job with his pellets.  Thanks,


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## imacman (Sep 22, 2010)

asabatelli said:
			
		

> I'm looking into buying a stove to burn the grass pellets in.  Right now I'm leaning toward the Harmon P38--the bottom feed feature should push the excess ash out of the way.  The P38, though, only has two control knobs--a feed rate and a fan blower speed (no draft/air control), which worries me a bit.  The P43 has more controls (and auto ignition), but is also pricier...  Just wondered if anyone had any opinions.  DJ tells me the Harmons all do a great job with his pellets.  Thanks,



I was the OP of this thread, as I was the person who "found" the grass pellets for sale.  I, along with Jay Takeman and Schoondog, did the initial testing for the forum.  Between us, we all successfully burned the grass pellets in the following stoves:

Englander 10-CPM 
Enviro Omega
US Stove 6039 insert

Not sure about Schoons US Stove, but the other 2 are Multi-fuel units.   My 10-CPM is considerably less $$ than the Harman.  Not sure about the other 2.


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## jtakeman (Sep 22, 2010)

asabatelli said:
			
		

> I'm looking into buying a stove to burn the grass pellets in.  Right now I'm leaning toward the Harmon P38--the bottom feed feature should push the excess ash out of the way.  The P38, though, only has two control knobs--a feed rate and a fan blower speed (no draft/air control), which worries me a bit.  The P43 has more controls (and auto ignition), but is also pricier...  Just wondered if anyone had any opinions.  DJ tells me the Harmons all do a great job with his pellets.  Thanks,



Personally, I would opt for a true multifuel stove along with the proper vent to match. A Harman PC45 or a Quad Mt. Vernon AE. Look at some of the Enviro's like the M55. You could check out the US Stove 6041 or the Englander 10cpm. If money is tight! I in no way would ever recommend anyone burn these in a "non" multifuel appliance! The grass pellets contain about 3x the amount of ash than a bad wood pellet or corn! More like 6 times that of a good wood pellet. Be prepared to do lots of cleaning!

If you do opt for the Harman P38/P43. Please use the multifuel rated vent. Make sure you tell the installer your plans to burn grass pellets in it. I would also bet you $1.00 that if you have issues they will not warranty the issue do to burning a non rated fuel. I would at least ask the dealer and get something in writing.Down load the manual and look at what voids the warranty. Most pellet only stove say that burning an unapproved fuel does so! Just FYI tis all.


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## vvvv (Sep 22, 2010)

asabatelli said:
			
		

> I'm looking into buying a stove to burn the grass pellets in.  Right now I'm leaning toward the Harmon P38--the bottom feed feature should push the excess ash out of the way.  The P38, though, only has two control knobs--a feed rate and a fan blower speed (no draft/air control), which worries me a bit.  The P43 has more controls (and auto ignition), but is also pricier...  Just wondered if anyone had any opinions.  DJ tells me the Harmons all do a great job with his pellets.  Thanks,


http://grassbioenergy.org/res/pellet_stove_demo.asp   englander 25pdvc not mentioned but i think, from the way the firepot is designed, would wok----with daily or so semi- cleaning/


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## imacman (Sep 22, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> asabatelli said:
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Blimp, you could burn the grass pellets in ANY stove, but most non-multi-fuel units would require a cleaning AT LEAST once a day.


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## vvvv (Sep 22, 2010)

imacman said:
			
		

> BLIMP said:
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excess silica/clinker from real grass pellets builds up like on the link. a pot stirrer may break it up but is the silca gonna get out of the burnpot? seems it will per link, duh


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## jtakeman (Sep 22, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> http://grassbioenergy.org/res/pellet_stove_demo.asp   englander 25pdvc not mentioned but i think, from the way the firepot is designed, would wok----with daily or so semi- cleaning/



Love to see you try! 


> Q: Can I burn grass pellets in my pellet stove?
> A: Most likely not. Average pellet stoves with a standard burn pot are not designed to cope with high ash content. In general, corn stoves will have more potential to handle grass pellets because they are designed to deal with a somewhat messy residue. This is no guarantee that corn stoves will burn grass, corn stoves sometimes have difficulty dealing with corn.


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## imacman (Sep 22, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> imacman said:
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We didn't have any silica build-up problems with the pellets we got from DJ...he field retts them to leach out minerals & nutrients.


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## vvvv (Sep 22, 2010)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> BLIMP said:
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me2= no grass pellets here. i'm thinking once a day spatula play with burnpot


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## jtakeman (Sep 22, 2010)

imacman said:
			
		

> BLIMP said:
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Yep, Only small glass pebbles, But LOTS and LOTS of ash!


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## jtakeman (Sep 22, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> j-takeman said:
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You pay shipping I will ship you up a 40 lbs. sample! Or 20lbs. if your a bit frugle!


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## vvvv (Sep 22, 2010)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> BLIMP said:
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 100% grass pellets? or mix


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## jtakeman (Sep 22, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> j-takeman said:
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100% grass or Goldenrod/grass mix(mixed in the pelletizing process, Each pellet has 50% grass and 50% goldenrod) which gave us more heat output.

I have the goldenrod here, I would have to go get some grass. Whatever you prefer!


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## schoondog (Sep 23, 2010)

imacman said:
			
		

> asabatelli said:
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My 6039i is a multifuel stove. Has a stirrer in burn pot. I was able to burn grass/goldenrod for about 3-4 days before stove had to be cleaned. I would also strongly recommend, along with Imacman and Jay, a multi fuel stove to almost anyone buying a new stove today and especially if you want to burngrass. The new US Stove 6041 is a multi fuel and has an igniter now along with a few other improvements mine doesn't have. It is half the money as the Harmon. I saw one at the local TSC for $1699. I just saw a Harmon running at the county fair last month and it loks great and ran nice. All about the money!! Harmon is a nicer stove, but I have had no issues with my US Stove going into 3rd heating season. I will be mixing grass with Hardwood Heat pellets this year.

Schoondog


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## asabatelli (Sep 23, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies!  Very helpful.  The P38 is a semi-multifuel (can burn up to 50% corn).  The thing that impressed me after lots of research, and after contacting DJ the grass guy is that the Harmon's have a very unique burn pot.  The auger feeds the pellets in from the bottom, and all the ash material is pushed out and over the lip of the burnpot by the incoming fuel.  One review states:  "... engineering is the basis of Harmon's success. They are the only company currently making pellet stoves with a bottom feed. The major advantage of this is that unburned pellets push ash out of the way as they enter the burnpot. Because of this, Harman stoves can burn pellets of any ash content as well as other fuels such as paper pellets and biomass pellets made from grasses although a better fire will always come from low ash fuel...."  I found the stove for 2100 with a free ton of high-quality wood pellets (or an additional $200 off), which seems pretty reasonable.  One of my big concerns with the P38 is that it just has the 2 adjustments--feed rate and blower fan speed, with no way to adjust the damper.  The P43 has the auto-ignition and more control of the flame, but then it costs $600 more....  Another concern is the space where I want to put the stove, and the P38/41 are relatively small units and we won't have to trip over them on the way through our family room....  Anyway, I'm mulling all this over.  I did get to see a Harmon in action today, and I was impressed with the way it pushed the ash up and out of the way as new pellets came in from below.  From what I hear, clinkers/silica are not as big a problem with DJs pellets.  Thanks again,


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## jtakeman (Sep 23, 2010)

asabatelli said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the replies!  Very helpful.  The P38 is a semi-multifuel (can burn up to 50% corn).  The thing that impressed me after lots of research, and after contacting DJ the grass guy is that the Harmon's have a very unique burn pot.  The auger feeds the pellets in from the bottom, and all the ash material is pushed out and over the lip of the burnpot by the incoming fuel.  One review states:  "... engineering is the basis of Harmon's success. They are the only company currently making pellet stoves with a bottom feed. The major advantage of this is that unburned pellets push ash out of the way as they enter the burnpot. Because of this, Harman stoves can burn pellets of any ash content as well as other fuels such as paper pellets and biomass pellets made from grasses although a better fire will always come from low ash fuel...."  I found the stove for 2100 with a free ton of high-quality wood pellets (or an additional $200 off), which seems pretty reasonable.  One of my big concerns with the P38 is that it just has the 2 adjustments--feed rate and blower fan speed, with no way to adjust the damper.  The P43 has the auto-ignition and more control of the flame, but then it costs $600 more....  Another concern is the space where I want to put the stove, and the P38/41 are relatively small units and we won't have to trip over them on the way through our family room....  Anyway, I'm mulling all this over.  I did get to see a Harmon in action today, and I was impressed with the way it pushed the ash up and out of the way as new pellets came in from below.  From what I hear, clinkers/silica are not as big a problem with DJs pellets.  Thanks again,



That's the first time I heard that, "semi multifuel". But that would be a mix of corn/wood. So at best its would be a mix of wood/grass. But your planning all grass? 

*Just make sure you use the right venting! There are more corrosives in the grass pellet. *

Looks like your going with the Harman. Spend the extra coin for the P43 and its adjustability. Your going to need it! Keep us posted on the progress and results of how the Harman handles the grass pellets.


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## asabatelli (Sep 23, 2010)

Thanks.  Dealer tells me he only uses "all fuel" vent pipes.  I'm not 100% convinced about the Harmon, yet....  Just trying to do my homework and make the right decision.  If space weren't an issue, I'd probably spring for one of the Enviros--Omega or M55....  Harmons also say they only require 2" of rear clearance, a big +.  I may well end up mixing wood/grass, though I'd prefer all grass...


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## libberly (Feb 9, 2011)

Check out Hudson Valley Grass Energy, they have a mobile mill that does 2 tons/hr grass pellets. Samples are available too.

www.hvge.org


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## jtakeman (Feb 10, 2011)

Hey imacman and Schoondog, I contacted libberly about the grass pellets. There to far away from me, But if your closer they might be able to set you up with some samples. Try to get some switchgrass if you can(or still interested).

I also asked about Bamboo but they have no leads on a grower. I wonder if DJ can get some bamboo for test samples?


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## schoondog (Feb 10, 2011)

Jay, I contacted Libby too and will be getting a sample soon. I'll let you know what transpires and have a way too get you a sample if you want one. Wifey has a part time job in Sharon, Conn.

Schoondog


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## imacman (Feb 10, 2011)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> Hey imacman and Schoondog, I contacted libberly about the grass pellets. There to far away from me, But if your closer they might be able to set you up with some samples. Try to get some switchgrass if you can(or still interested).
> 
> I also asked about Bamboo but they have no leads on a grower. I wonder if DJ can get some bamboo for test samples?



Thanks Jay.  new paltz is only about 15 minutes for me, and I'm up that way occasionally for work too.

Schoon, let me know if you can get me a sample when you go.


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