# Woodstove in rental house - who's responsible for cleaning?



## stek (Feb 11, 2011)

We had a new Avalon Rainier insert installed in our rental house in December (the old stove was warped and unsafe to use). Well after two months of quiet happy tenants the first call has come: the stove is belching smoke when the door is opened to load, can we get it fixed? 

My guess is the wood our tenants are burning is less than optimal which has led to creosote buildup already. (Though we haven't been over to take a look yet.) My feeling is that the cleaning and maintenance of the flue should be the tenants' responsibility, we can't control what they burn and how they burn it so cleaning the flue is akin to taking out the garbage.

The house has electric heat as well and is extremely well insulated so the woodstove is a bonus, not a necessity for heat.

What are y'all's thoughts?


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## Shari (Feb 11, 2011)

stek said:
			
		

> *1.  "...we can't control what they burn and how they burn it...
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> 2.  The house has electric heat as well and is extremely well insulated so the woodstove is a bonus, not a necessity for heat.*



You probably won't like what I'm going to say - but here goes anyway:  You just listed two reasons a 'tenant' would not be allowed to use a woodstove in any rental unit I owned.


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## PNWBurner (Feb 11, 2011)

Is sweeping the chimney like taking out the garbage or more like uncloging a sewer pipe?  I'm assuming you as owner would be responsible for the later.  What if something happened to the dishwasher and it didn't work properly any more?  You'd be responsible for fixing that applicance so maybe the woodstove is also an appliance that you're responsible for?  Food for thought. 

A woodstove in a rental sounds a little dangerous to me too, I hope your insurance is paid up!


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## summit (Feb 11, 2011)

we have a customer who has a Lopi 1250 in his rental. Tenants pay for the green firewood they try to burn in it: he pays for the 2-3 chimney cleanings a year they need because of that (at 125/per)... he also paid for some numb service calls: broken glass, baffle bricks falling out, etc. from when they try to jam too much wood in it. The stove was new 3 years ago... it is absolutely beat at this point. Tenants simply don't give a damn about your property.


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## dougand3 (Feb 11, 2011)

I go with landlord responsibility...the sewer analogy is a good one. The landlord didn't burn wet wood but those aren't the landlord's um, uh waste products clogging sewer either. Especially if not spelled out in the rental agreement.


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## WoodpileOCD (Feb 11, 2011)

Its your house, your investment and your liability.  Who's going to pay if a chimney fire burns the house down?   

Surprising to me to even hear of a rental with a landlord provided woodstove.


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## stek (Feb 11, 2011)

I've had woodstoves in rental homes in the past and never had a problem, but then we were careful to burn only good wood. I have friends that are renting a house with a fireplace that per the lease are only allowed to burn wood purchased in those bundles they sell at the grocery or hardware store. Our tenants have been good and responsible and I don't think they would abuse the stove knowingly, but I did set out some ground rules in writing for burning when the new stove was installed, essentially following the manual and not burning anything over 20% moisture content.

PNW I am wrestling with that very question. If there were something wrong with the plumbing, then I would think a repair would be the responsibility of the landlord. If a tenant flushed a used diaper down the toilet and the toilet got clogged as a result, I think that's the fault of the tenant. 

I think damage or maintenance for 'normal wear and tear' (e.g sweeping the chimney once a year) would be the landlord's responsibility, and that's what we have done in the past. In this case the entire setup is new from the stove all the way to the chimney cap, and clogging the flue with creosote after two months (if that's what is actually happening) means you're doing it wrong.

Our homeowner's insurance has no problem with the stove as part of the rental property, though I am going to work on some serious rewording of the lease that spells this out for the future.


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## Exmasonite (Feb 11, 2011)

Only other thing to consider:

Provide the wood and work the cost into the rent.  Provide 2-3 good SEASONED cords of wood (or whatever you think they need/go through).  I'd also include an annual sweep fee in the rent, too.  

We have 2 rentals and we pay the annual furnace inspection/emergency coverage + provide 4-5 furnace filters.  We also pay for the trash receptacle.  We take all that into consideration in setting the monthly rental price.  Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure (also makes for blissful, carefree sleeping).  

Good luck!


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## Wood Duck (Feb 11, 2011)

I understand why you don't want to pay for the cleaning, but it seems to me you would want to be responsible for the chimney. It is your house and your loss if it burns down.


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## WhitePine (Feb 11, 2011)

I once had to move out of a house I heated with an insert due to a job transfer. At the time, the local real estate market was nonexistent, so I turned the place into a rental. It was managed for me by a trusted management company who was already handling an investment rental for me. If I recall correctly, they forbade the use of the insert by the tenants. Anyway, I never had any reported tenant/insert problems while it was a rental.


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## shawneyboy (Feb 11, 2011)

I would assume unless specifically in the lease agreement (which I would not do) it would be the owners responsibility.  Me personally, unless I knew the person renting prior to the rental agreement, and I knew that they knew what they were doing, I would not allow a renter to burn in a property I owned.


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## gyrfalcon (Feb 11, 2011)

Shari said:
			
		

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+ 1


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## stek (Feb 11, 2011)

Very interesting. Of course if you leave it up to most tenants they are likely to never clean it, even if it's required in the lease. Arrrrg. 

While it is our property and our loss if it burns down, I have to say I'm surprised you all are saying the tenant isn't responsible when we provided clear instructions on how the stove was to be used, including a copy of the manual.

I guess no good deed goes unpunished.


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## PNWBurner (Feb 11, 2011)

Hmmm... so when they eventually give notice and leave are you going to keep the cleaning deposit to pay for a chimney sweeping?  Are they responsible to replace the filters on the furnace?  I keep thinking it's basically your responsibility but if they're abusing it that's a different story...

Leaving all that aside for the moment I'd be surprised if four months of burning has clogged the chimney THAT badly unless they're really burning wet garbage in there.  Are you sure the backpuffing isn't from some installation error?


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## lydiatwin (Feb 11, 2011)

I too have a rental with a wood stove.  The lease says they are required to have the chimney professionally cleaned once a year and provide me the receipt.  The unit has baseboard electric, which is very costly to run.  In fact, it has been rare that a tenant ever gets the chimney cleaned.  Maybe if they stay multiple years.  The current tenant never bought any wood and is now complaining about the cost of the electric heat.  We've never had other repairs - well the last tenant trashed the flagstone hearth by chopping wood on it!!  You should've seen the carpet too.  Sheesh.

I'm starting to reconsider the wisdom of a wood stove there and am considering switchiing to a propane heater.  Then they just need to set the thermostat and keep the tank full.


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## burntime (Feb 11, 2011)

Yep, its landlords unless its in the lease.  Me personally, I would stuff insulation in the chimney and would have listed the stove as off limits to the tenants...  Few renters give a darn about where they live.  Why do you think they have to practically rehab places when they move out.  Would you need to paint your whole house every year?  If they flip a rental they usually do...


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## stek (Feb 11, 2011)

In the past we've done the chimney between tenants and not charged that against the deposit as it's 'reasonable wear and tear'. The electric heat is baseboard, so requires no maintenance, especially as we just replaced all the baseboard heaters two years ago. We're not slumlords and are happy to keep up the house. I just have a hard time paying for abuse of a brand new stove.

I doubt it was an installation error as the stove worked great (per the tenants) for the first month and was installed by a well respected pro. It's actually only been in use for two months. Maybe it isn't a creosote problem at all, and the stove vendor has offered to go out and look things over but we'll be on the hook for a service call if it's not their fault.

Thanks for your input Lydia, it's helpful to hear from someone in the same situation.


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## sixman (Feb 11, 2011)

Sounds like it might just be a clogged cap. Easy fix if it is.


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## offroadaudio (Feb 11, 2011)

Shari said:
			
		

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Sorry, but I agree 100% my rentals will never have a woodstove.


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## afptl (Feb 11, 2011)

I'd check out the chimney cap to make sure it's not clogged.  I would also have a "chat" with the tenants. How they have been using the stove, etc.  If they would like to continue the use of the wood burning stove, then it has to be operated in a correct manner. You could always have the chimney sweep do it and talk to him.  

IF I was renting, I would love to have a wood stove to keep warm with. Kinda depends on the tenants.  There are responsible people and irresponsible people.  Depends on which one is renting it!  My in-laws rented to my brother, and he made so many improvements that the house was much nicer when he left than when he got there.


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## krex1010 (Feb 11, 2011)

If you want tenants to be responsible for sweeping the chimney the you should have that spelled out in the lease agreement.  If not then as the landlord if you are letting your tenants burn, then I think you have to bit the bullet and take care of cleaning yourself.


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## stek (Feb 11, 2011)

krex1010 said:
			
		

> If you want tenants to be responsible for sweeping the chimney the you should have that spelled out in the lease agreement.  If not then as the landlord if you are letting your tenants burn, then I think you have to bit the bullet and take care of cleaning yourself.



So do you think sweeping the chimney every two months is 'normal wear and tear'?

If you had a tenant insisting that you replace the furnace filter every month would that be normal?

Just curious if this is a case of 'you've opened yourself up to it, so bend over' or if everyone thinks having to sweep every two months is expected if the tenant is living up to their end of the bargain and burning as the manual recommends. 

Again, I'm happy to sweep once a year as I think that's what's warranted as normal expected maintenance.


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## 48rob (Feb 12, 2011)

You might want to research what happens to "landlords" who fail to properly maintain heating systems in rental property.
When a tennant experiences "bodily harm" or worse "death" the jury will hang you.
No matter that the tennant caused the event that killed them, you are still "the landlord".

And as "Everyone knows" landlords are rich, and can easily afford to pay out million dollar settlements.

Were it my rental, the stove would be removed, and detailed records and reciepts of yearly furnace and co detector inspections would be guarded like gold.

Rob


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## krex1010 (Feb 12, 2011)

I don't know how well you know the tenants, and I have no idea what kind of people they are.  I used to take care of a rental property my parents had and in my experience i would never assume that they know what they are doing or really care much about your property.  If it were me, I would definitely have some language in the rental contract regarding safely operating the stove and i would either factor the cleaning costs into the rent or have a separate charge for cleaning.  Not sure how much they burn but I would account for about 2 or 3 cleanings a season.  Ultimately it's your property and nobody values it as much as you do, so I would do whatever you can to prevent any problems.


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## burntime (Feb 12, 2011)

I think you will be grabbing your ankles.  Unless you provide the wood (which makes no sense) then it will be whatever they find.  Like I said before, I would put insulation in the pipe and mark it off limits.  Not needed to maintain temps and they will sure as heck burn wet stuff or worse overfire it and cause damage to the stove or your place...  Tough spot to be in.  Good luck!


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## Loco Gringo (Feb 12, 2011)

We rent our home and I take full responsibility for the stove, the maintenance of it, and I split all of my wood. Well I did just buy a truck load cuz I was worried about running out. This man could just forbid us from burning and leave us to heat with a heat pump which gives virtually no heat esp under 30 degrees. As well as a $300+ a month power bill.  I see this Buck as a luxury as well as a huge savings and Im so thankfull for that. On the same token, we rent a house in another state and its been a nighmare untill a property manager was incorporated, but thats a different story. Bottom line is take responsibility for your own actions and appreciate what you have.
Stek, I personally would tell them that it is out of commission indefinately due to safety concerns and that they should resort to using the electric heat source that is still functional. I have no sympathy for dependent deadbeats.


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## stek (Feb 12, 2011)

Gringo, want to move to WA state? =) When I have rented homes with stoves I have taken the same tack - saw it as a luxury and looked after it as my own responsibility.

In all fairness these have been great tenants, if a little high maintenance. (I've had bad ones to teach me the difference) According to them they have heated with wood their whole lives so I thought we were on the same page.

I think what I'll do is pay to have it cleaned this time then write up an addendum to the lease to spell out the terms under which we will allow continued use of the stove. Their lease is up in April so if they don't think it's fair neither of us will be stuck.


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## Loco Gringo (Feb 12, 2011)

I deal with people all day at work that stand strong with burning "green" wood. They just dont know much more than the little world that theyve lived in all of their life. If thats what grandpa did, then thats the best way to do it. Maybe you could educate them a little and help the both of you?


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## DBoon (Feb 12, 2011)

I am a landlord with two rental properties.  Never in a million years would I consider having a wood stove in a rental property.  I've put clauses in my leases telling tenants that they cannot use the fireplace.  Very few people really understand all the caveats of proper wood burning, and the time to figure that out is not after they have just burned your investment down. 

Remove the wood stove permanently, clean the flue pipe, and block it off.  If they don't like it, find another tenant.


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## gzecc (Feb 12, 2011)

stek said:
			
		

> We had a new Avalon Rainier insert installed in our rental house in December (the old stove was warped and unsafe to use). Well after two months of quiet happy tenants the first call has come: the stove is belching smoke when the door is opened to load, can we get it fixed?
> 
> My guess is the wood our tenants are burning is less than optimal which has led to creosote buildup already. (Though we haven't been over to take a look yet.) My feeling is that the cleaning and maintenance of the flue should be the tenants' responsibility, we can't control what they burn and how they burn it so cleaning the flue is akin to taking out the garbage.
> 
> ...


Its like letting the tenant use your car you left there.  I would never do it.  Is it listed on the lease aggreement? I personally would lock it somehow to prevent usage.


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## Extremebison (Feb 12, 2011)

I don't think it's a good idea putting a wood stove in a rental.  I got one in my rental cabin, as primary heat.  But I provide the wood for the stove and just include it in my rent.  This way I pay myself for cutting firewood.  Also I know what is going in the stove ands it's properly seasoned.  Also I maintain the stove, sweep the chimney and so on.  I never had a problem this way.


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## Jimbob (Feb 12, 2011)

If I had a rental property, I'd pull the stove out and block the chimney.


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## Kenster (Feb 12, 2011)

Shari said:
			
		

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What Shari said.  I've owned several rental houses over the years (not any more!) I can't imagine ever putting a wood stove in one.  

However, now that you've done it..... (and I think we advised against it a couple of months ago when you first brought up the issue- forgive me if that was not you) if you don't take care of it yourself it won't get done.  Conditions of maintaining the stove should have been discussed up front and put into the lease agreement.    Since fuel is probably the main issue, I would educate them on the care and feeding of a wood stove and go so far as to help them secure good, seasoned wood.   Even sell, or give them some out of your own stash.  

Too many issues with burning wood vs renters.  Besides the ever present prospect of a fire getting away from them, they can sure stink up the place with smoke.   Plus there is the cleaning costs involved.   I don't know if insurance would be an issue or not.  

Let us know what you find out when you go over for your inspection.  It would be hard to believe they plugged the cap with only a couple weeks of burning.  (could there be an installation issue?)  Are you able to do your own cleaning?  If not, maybe you could buy a kit and let the tenant do his own cleaning.   Maybe you can get by with just cleaning the cap yourself for now, followed by a good chimney cleaning after the burning season.   Maybe they won't be there next winter.  You can gift new tenants a cord of dry wood but that only eliminates some of the risks.  

Hope it works out for you.


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## kettensÃ¤ge (Feb 12, 2011)

My brother removed the fisher grandma bear that I grew up from my moms house that he now owns/rents. It's out in the garage.


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## Renovation (Feb 13, 2011)

48rob said:
			
		

> You might want to research what happens to "landlords" who fail to properly maintain heating systems in rental property.
> When a tennant experiences "bodily harm" or worse "death" the jury will hang you.
> No matter that the tennant caused the event that killed them, you are still "the landlord".
> 
> ...



+1

Wood burning in a rental is a privilege, not a right, and puts huge liability on the landlord.  It's a nice thing for a landlord to allow, but if it were me, I'd only do it if I trusted my tenants, if they signed on for all liability and maintenance, and I'd remove the stove at the first sign of trouble or conflict.  Even then I'd be very hesitant to do it.


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## sandie (Feb 14, 2011)

Should put in lease that 1)only 2 year seasoned wood to be used, 2) they are responsibile for the chimney sweep and 3) you will call the chimney sweep for a cleaning before you return the security deposit and if there is creosote the cleaning comes out of their security deposit,  That way they will use the stove a few times and not ever night and know what the rules are up front.
I would not have a wood stove in a rental unit because some people are just plain stupid and can burn your house down.


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## stek (Feb 14, 2011)

Great suggestions, I am working on updating the lease and will have the current tenants sign an addendum if they want to continue burning (which they do). I'm also doing some research about how this kind of thing is dealt with/worded in other leases. 

At least half of the houses I've rented in my life have had stoves or fireplaces, and as a renter I managed to never burn one down =) Call me crazy (I've been called worse and for good reason) but I still think there are responsible tenants out there who can be trusted with a woodstove. Another reason to keep the stove in place is that in our part of the country it's common to lose power 2 or 3 times per winter for days on end and having a heat source in those times sure is a bonus. The property also has a horse barn, riding arena and pasture and is somewhat out in the country so this is not your typical rental house.   

In the way of happy endings and contributing to my delusions, after I suggested the problem might be creosote and asked if they had been burning wood with <20% moisture content as we agreed, tenants acknowledged that what they had been burning wasn't the best, went and looked down the chimney, found a mess of creosote and cleaned it out. That has taken care of the problem for now. We offered use of our sweep kit in the future and they have happily accepted as well.


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## kjklosek (Feb 14, 2011)

Just let the tenants know in advance that you will change the lease to make provisions for stove maintenance.

Just make sure you will allow yourself chance to inspect the chimney and a fee if you need to clean it.

Most folks are motivated by money.  Once you charge them for a couple of cleanings, then they will either shape up or not use the stove.

Personally, I would never put a wood stove or other type of solid fuel appliance in my rentals.

However, it does allow you a chance to inspect the property for other things as well when you come to look at the chimney.

J.P.


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## EJL923 (Feb 14, 2011)

Hate to say it, but most renters dont care about your house.  If you allow the burning, i would take it upon yourself to get the cleaning done if you dont want your house burned down.  I know that i burn good wood (most of the time), and can usually get by with a once a year cleaning with periodic inspections.

My be all end all, i wouldnt allow a stranger to burn a stove in my house.  However i did rent before and wasnt allowed to burn when i wished i could.  In the future, if you want to allow burning, i would require an inspection (WITH PROOF) every couple months or so.

As for this time, have them pay for an inspection.  If the sweep says it needs to be cleaned, then pay for it for them.  If the sweep says it doesnt need to be cleaned, they eat the inspection bill.


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## jackofalltrades (Feb 14, 2011)

I would never allow someone to burn wood in a rental property I owned, but if I did I know it would be well explained and written down they were responsible for seeing the flue is cleaned if I did have other heat for them in the house. I lived in apartments at MS State and we had a fireplace there, but it was never talked about who was responsible for it, but we seldom used it anyway.


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## Chargerman (Feb 14, 2011)

stek said:
			
		

> In the way of happy endings and contributing to my delusions, after I suggested the problem might be creosote and asked if they had been burning wood with <20% moisture content as we agreed, tenants acknowledged that what they had been burning wasn't the best, went and looked down the chimney, found a mess of creosote and cleaned it out. That has taken care of the problem for now. We offered use of our sweep kit in the future and they have happily accepted as well.



If this is what you are going to allow be aware of the possible outcomes. If you supply equipment and allow a tenant to clean the chimney what happens if they fall off the roof and injure or kill themselves? IMO you have just opened up a whole other liability issue for yourself. If you really think a wood stove is what you want in there I would require that the lease state a "Professional" chimney sweep do the cleanings for the tenant an agreed number of times per year and that a report be provided to you after each cleaning. Unfortunately, what we do in our own homes is a different matter than what a tenant can and should be allowed to do in a rental property. I deal in the apartment rental business full time and anything can happen. My opinion, from one landlord to another, take the stove out as you don't need the liability associated with it. If not make sure you have very, very, good property and *liability* insurance.


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## jtb51b (Feb 16, 2011)

If it were up to me, and I wanted to keep the stove in place, I would get with a sweep service to suggest a cleaning schedule for the setup. This would help remove some of your liability if you hired that service out and just made additions to the rent to cover it. Maybe the sweep would do a couple of checkups to determine the cleaning schedule, or maybe just overclean it! Either way you are doing what you can to push these decisions to an expert--in writing.

Jason


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2011)

I tend to agree Jason. But I might be a bit more reticent. Burning wood is a significant responsibility and unfortunately not all tenant are responsible. For that reason I would be reluctant to have the woodstove in at all with a new tenant. If, over time you get to know and trust the tenant and it looks like they will be in there for a while, then maybe move the stove back in. Otherwise it doesn't seem worth the risk and hassle. If the new tenant really wants to have the stove, then I would have an agreement in advance for a sweeping contract the cost being born by the tenant. Your peace of mind is more important than their heating bill. You have much more to lose if they turn out to be irresponsible or careless.


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