# Thermodynamics the future of heating and cooling using zero fossil fuels.



## Brian26 (Mar 31, 2019)

Moving heat from one source to the other with thermodynamics rather than creating it through burning fossil fuels in my opinion is going to be the future of heating and cooling. Air source heat pumps are going to expand rapidly and burning natural gas, oil, wood will be a thing of the past soon. Add in solar and the potential for large energy storage with advancements in batteries. I have also read that the efficiency of heat pumps has a theoretical maximum that has been only scratched.   Its coming..


Thermodynamic *heat pump cycles* or *refrigeration cycles* are the conceptual and mathematical models for heat pumps and refrigerators. A heat pump is a machine or device that moves heat from one location (the "source") at a lower temperature to another location (the "sink" or "heat sink") at a higher temperature using mechanical work or a high-temperature heat source.[1] Thus a heat pump may be thought of as a "heater" if the objective is to warm the heat sink (as when warming the inside of a home on a cold day), or a "refrigerator" if the objective is to cool the heat source (as in the normal operation of a freezer). In either case, the operating principles are identical.[2] Heat is moved from a cold place to a warm place.


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## woodgeek (Mar 31, 2019)

Dude, if you go look it up, the majority of homes in the US of A are ALREADY heated by air source heat pumps.  And the ones that are cooled....100% of those too.

I agree completely.  The tech just needs to keep improving (it has been doing so steadily), and the installers need to get better at deploying the existing tech (many installs of split systems are jokes and disasters).

The biggest problem is the ATTITUDE of home owners in colder climates, who believe that ASHPs are junk that will make them shiver all winter, break, and/or leave them with huge bills.  An attitude reinforced by HVAC installers and oil dealerships.

The second biggest problem are the electrical utilities in New England, that are currently ENRON-ing the region with (IMHO) artificial scarcity (blamed on NIMBY and liberal limited pipeline capacity BS).  And giving you electricity rates 2X higher than the rest of the country for no reason....and preventing the penetration of ASHPs into a densely-populated region that could use them (i.e. southern/coastal New England).


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## 4barrel (Mar 31, 2019)

WoodGeek, can you expand on what you said about the electric company's screwing everybody in New England. I live there and the electricity prices suck. We have been told for years that the pipeline capacity has to be upgraded to bring in a larger amount of gas an so forth.


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## Brian26 (Mar 31, 2019)

woodgeek said:


> Dude, if you go look it up, the majority of homes in the US of A are ALREADY heated by air source heat pumps.  And the ones that are cooled....100% of those too.
> 
> I agree completely.  The tech just needs to keep improving (it has been doing so steadily), and the installers need to get better at deploying the existing tech (many installs of split systems are jokes and disasters).
> 
> ...



The cold climate performance is a thing of the past. Gree now has AHRI rated units that can provide 90% of heat capacity at -22 with a HSPF of 15 and COP of 4.47. How is gas or oil going to compete with 447% efficiency using Solar? 

https://www.greecomfort.com/resources/dealer-resources-current-product/#Sapphire_Heat_Pump_Revision_

 No excuse on power prices as New England has some of the best solar incentives in the lower 48.

Massachusetts is ranked number 1 in incentives and the lowest payback period.

https://www.solarpowerrocks.com/massachusetts/


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 31, 2019)

Depends on


woodgeek said:


> Dude, if you go look it up, the majority of homes in the US of A are ALREADY heated by air source heat pumps.  And the ones that are cooled....100% of those too..


 
Yes the majority of NEW homes. Depends on the area. Id say about 5% of homes in my area are new construction. Many old homes are still to this day with ZERO insulation or very poor insulation (attic only). Lots of people still heating with coal,much smaller % are wood heaters. Rest are oil and gas. Plus there a many small towns in a hundred mile radius with the same or similar situation. Long time before heat pumps dominate around here.


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## woodgeek (Mar 31, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Depends on
> 
> 
> Yes the majority of NEW homes. Depends on the area. Id say about 5% of homes in my area are new construction. Many old homes are still to this day with ZERO insulation or very poor insulation (attic only). Lots of people still heating with coal,much smaller % are wood heaters. Rest are oil and gas. Plus there a many small towns in a hundred mile radius with the same or similar situation. Long time before heat pumps dominate around here.



I looked up the EIA data....I was wrong.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=30672

in 2015 residential heating was 47% nat gas, 37% electricity (heat pump and strip heat combined)...

This older link from 2009 has more detail:

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=3690

It basically shows half of US homes with gas, a third using electricity, and oil and propane splitting most of the remainder, with the oil being in the Northeast, and propane taking its place over the rest of the country.


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## woodgeek (Mar 31, 2019)

4barrel said:


> WoodGeek, can you expand on what you said about the electric company's screwing everybody in New England. I live there and the electricity prices suck. We have been told for years that the pipeline capacity has to be upgraded to bring in a larger amount of gas an so forth.



During each of these shortage events, I have read that the utilities reserve time to use the pipeline to import gas, and then cancel the reservation (legally) in the last 24 hours....so the 'inadequate pipelines' are running well below 100% capacity during the emergency...and the same utilities are using the shortage (they created) to jack prices....and then keeping them high.  

Suspicious.  I don't know anything, except that it stinks to me.

I know that when Enron was cheating LA I lived in LA, they were having brownouts, and the utilities were blaming the liberals and greens (and the Governor) for not allowing enough power plants to be built.  And the whole time is was Enron manipulating the transmission market with the legal rules, by reserving transmision/generation and then cancelling it to create shortages.

The rest of the country west of the Hudson is awash in dirt cheap natural gas, and enjoying cheap kWh at steady prices, while New Englanders are still burning oil (whose prices can spike) bc they don't trust the gas cos (whose prices can spike) or electricity cos (whose prices can spike).


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## Brian26 (Mar 31, 2019)

woodgeek said:


> During each of these shortage events, I have read that the utilities reserve time to use the pipeline to import gas, and then cancel the reservation (legally) in the last 24 hours....so the 'inadequate pipelines' are running well below 100% capacity during the emergency...and the same utilities are using the shortage (they created) to jack prices....and then keeping them high.
> 
> Suspicious.  I don't know anything, except that it stinks to me.
> 
> ...



This is pretty much 100 percent true from what I have heard from someone who works for a CT utility. The pipelines are constrained...

 I have a natural gas line in front of my house but the almost $30 monthly connection charge makes no sense.

I have been investing all my heating and cooling needs in heat pumps with solar and  its paid off huge.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 31, 2019)

Brian26 said:


> This is pretty much 100 percent true from what I have heard from someone who works for a CT utility. The pipelines are constrained...
> I have a natural gas line in front of my house but the almost $30 monthly connection charge makes no sense.
> I have been investing all my heating and cooling needs in heat pumps with solar and  its paid off huge.


I agree for the most part. $360 a year for them to mail you a bill. Thats more than half my yearly heating cost.  Imagine if the oil truck driver said heres you price for oil and by the way i have $360 delivery fee. Electric companies are right behind them at about $20  month in dead head charges. Water company the same.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 31, 2019)

Brian26 said:


> The cold climate performance is a thing of the past. Gree now has AHRI rated units that can provide 90% of heat capacity at -22 with a HSPF of 15 and COP of 4.47. How is gas or oil going to compete with 447% efficiency using Solar?
> 
> https://www.greecomfort.com/resources/dealer-resources-current-product/#Sapphire_Heat_Pump_Revision_
> 
> ...



I wish my state had better incentives...


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## Brian26 (Mar 31, 2019)

Using the laws of thermodynamics and the carnot cylcle there is a theoretical max of a COP of 36 and EER of 120. So the the technology has the potential to expand insanely from the the current 3-5 COP.. TO 10 times the current efficiency! 

*Theoretical maximum*
The SEER and EER of an air conditioner are limited by the laws of thermodynamics. The refrigeration process with the maximum possible efficiency is the Carnot cycle. The COP of an air conditioner using the Carnot cycle is:

C O P C a r n o t = T C T H − T C {\displaystyle COP_{Carnot}={\frac {T_{C}}{T_{H}-T_{C}}}} 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




where  T C {\displaystyle T_{C}} 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 is the indoor temperature and  T H {\displaystyle T_{H}} 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 is the outdoor temperature. Both temperatures must be measured using a thermodynamic temperature scale based at absolute zero such as Kelvin or Rankine. The EER is calculated by multiplying the COP by 3.412 BTU/W⋅h as described above:

E E R C a r n o t = 3.412 T C T H − T C {\displaystyle EER_{Carnot}=3.412{\frac {T_{C}}{T_{H}-T_{C}}}} 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Assuming an outdoor temperature of 95 °F (35 °C) and an indoor temperature of 80 °F (27 °C), the above equation gives (when temperatures are converted to Kelvin or Rankine) a COP of 36, or an EER of 120. This is about 10 times more efficient than a typical home air conditioner available today.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 31, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I agree for the most part. $360 a year for them to mail you a bill. Thats more than half my yearly heating cost.  Imagine if the oil truck driver said heres you price for oil and by the way i have $360 delivery fee. Electric companies are right behind them at about $20  month in dead head charges. Water company the same.



Thankfully I'm on a well, so I don't have water cost. However everything else is spot on. Usually my transmission fees are the same as the power I use.


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## Brian26 (Mar 31, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I wish my state had better incentives...



You probably don't need incentives. A mini split combined with solar would be way cheaper to run than burning propane/oil


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## SpaceBus (Mar 31, 2019)

Brian26 said:


> You probably don't need incentives. A mini split combined with solar would be way cheaper to run than burning propane/oil



As much as I'd rather have propane for backup heat, I think my wife would rather get one or two mini splits. We use the electric baseboard heaters for backup heat now, but we can't really leave the house for more than ten hours without great cost. Maine has zero incentives for solar and the net metering here is a joke.

With the rate of advancements in heat pump technology I don't mind waiting a few years before we make the jump. Our payback period will take forever with the cost of installation.


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## Highbeam (Mar 31, 2019)

Cool thread.


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## blades (Apr 1, 2019)

Squat diddly for homeowner incentives here in WI also.


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