# Another benefit of EVs - less brake dust pollution



## semipro (Jan 23, 2020)

TIL something like 1/5 of particulate matter pollution (@PM2.5) near roads comes from vehicle brake pads.  Other sources include exhaust and tires. 

EVs rely more on electric motor braking (regen) so they are likely to produce less brake pad dust. 
I know the brakes on our hybrid Toyota Highlander last a lot longer than our ICE vehicles.

*BRAKE PAD AIR POLLUTION AS BAD FOR LUNGS AS DIESEL EXHAUST*
-> AirQualityNews.com reported that a study published in Metallomics suggested fine particulate matter (PM2.5) originating from brake pads may be just as bad for the lungs as PM2.5 from diesel exhaust. (Brake Dust Exposure Exacerbates Inflammation and Transiently Compromises Phagocytosis in Macrophages: https://rsc.li/2GgyR7m) Brake pad emissions make up a fifth of PM2.5 air pollution at roadsides. Researchers found that it causes inflammation, which harms respiratory health, as well as damaging cells when they enter the lungs. They also believe that brake pad dust could be contributing to coughs and colds suffered by Londoners. http://bit.ly/2twe1hV


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## SpaceBus (Jan 23, 2020)

Wow, the more I learn about particulate emissions the more I feel bad about all of the race car stuff I used to do before moving to Maine.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 23, 2020)

Between tire (rubber) wearing away and brake dust, I'm getting less worried about it and more worried about the failing power grid.


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## begreen (Jan 23, 2020)

The brake pads on our Volt at 40K miles were like new. It feels odd now when I drive a car without regenerative braking.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 23, 2020)

begreen said:


> The brake pads on our Volt at 40K miles were like new. It feels odd now when I drive a car without regenerative braking.




Have that on my 350 Ford diesel pickup...  Exhaust brake.


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## begreen (Jan 23, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> Have that on my 350 Ford diesel pickup...  Exhaust brake.


That's engine braking, not generating power while braking and a lot noisier.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 23, 2020)

begreen said:


> That's engine braking, not generating power while braking and a lot noisier.


My Mach 1 was at times louder under engine braking than under throttle. I curse every time I hear a Jake brake without a good reasonm


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## semipro (Jan 23, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> My Mach 1 was at times louder under engine braking than under throttle. I curse every time I hear a Jake brake without a good reasonm


The driver with the annoying Jake Brake may say the "good reason" is to decrease brake wear which is interesting given the context here. I guess the tradeoff is noise versus air pollution.

I hate them BTW, unmuffled Jake Brakes.


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## Ashful (Jan 23, 2020)

semipro said:


> TIL something like 1/5 of particulate matter pollution (@PM2.5) near roads comes from vehicle brake pads.  Other sources include exhaust and tires.



Sorry about the tire dust, that was probably me.  

Engine breaking also cuts down on brake pad dust, even if less beneficial than regenerative breaking.  As one who always drive manual trans, I also hate driving any auto without a high level of engine braking, and love Tesla’s more aggressive regen.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 23, 2020)

It's not a Jake Brake btw.  Jacobs Brake (Jake Brake) is just one company that makes them.  Correct name is an engine retarder.

No 4 wheel toasters here.  Don't work out here in the sticks but my Cousin has a Tesla AWD SUV.  Nice ride, drove it.  Cannot get by the price tag.  Everytime he visits, I have to plug him into the 220 shop power.

I drive a manual too and I don't replace pads for at least 75K miles and then Ceramic only.  I sell EBC in my real life.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 24, 2020)

I engine brake in my diesel six speed truck, but hearing what sounds like a machine gun going around a gentle curve near my house or when going through a 25 MPH zone in town is a different story.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 24, 2020)

Because owner operators run straight pipes.  Of course the day of the OO is rapidly coming to an end anyway and most company trucks have engine retarders but have mufflers as well so you don't hear the retarder.

Of course then you have the motorcycle crowd that 'thinks' the louder the exhaust is, the more 'macho' they are.

I laugh about the Hardley saying, 'loud pipes save lives'.  On the contrary, loud exhaust only causes citizens to enact noise abatement ordinances.

I find loud motorcycle exhaust way more irritating the the occasional unmuffled engine retarder.

Louder means faster....  Ah no.  Louder means no back pressure means loss of power.  You need some back pressure in a 4 stroke to keep all the charge in the cylinders, unless that engine is running tuned headers.  Tuned headers control the exiting exhaust pulse and cause the incoming charge to stay where it belongs, in the cylinders but, most loud exhaust bikes don't have tuned headers.

In reality, any turbocharged diesel (no retarder) is actually muffled.  The turbo is recognized as an exhaust muffling device by the Fed.

I run a straight pipe on my one diesel pickup and it's not noisy at all.  Just whistles as the turbo spools up.


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## semipro (Jan 24, 2020)

Ashful said:


> Sorry about the tire dust, that was probably me.


Or me.  I like G-force and I'd much prefer my tires wear out rather than rot away.


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## semipro (Jan 24, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> It's not a Jake Brake btw. Jacobs Brake (Jake Brake) is just one company that makes them. Correct name is an engine retarder.


So what do you call Kleenex, Band-Aids, Sharpies, Q-tips, etc?


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## SpaceBus (Jan 24, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> Because owner operators run straight pipes.  Of course the day of the OO is rapidly coming to an end anyway and most company trucks have engine retarders but have mufflers as well so you don't hear the retarder.
> 
> Of course then you have the motorcycle crowd that 'thinks' the louder the exhaust is, the more 'macho' they are.
> 
> ...


My ram has no muffler either, just a cat and of course the turbo. The bike I traded for it was loud, but still muffled. The two local engine retarder offenders are seriously like hearing an M2 firing down the road. They do it in town all the time as well. I assume the drivers don't live around here.


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## DBoon (Jan 25, 2020)

Agreed that regen braking on an EV is hard to give up once you have it. 

I still drive my nearly 5 year old Chevy Sonic manual transmission car about once a month or so. It has 135,000 miles and original brake pads (mostly highway miles). I credit part of this long brake pad life to just not driving as fast as many and also looking a hundred yards ahead or more to anticipate when I need to slow down. 

Being an avid bicyclist, I can tell you that there are some good bicycling habits that lead to good driving habits. Nobody on a bike would ride 20 mph up to a stoplight and then jam on the brakes to stop in 20 feet, only to have to expend the energy to get going again a few seconds later. But that is how most people drive their cars.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 25, 2020)

Isn't 'Sonic' a hamburger joint?


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## lml999 (Jan 26, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Wow, the more I learn about particulate emissions the more I feel bad about all of the race car stuff I used to do before moving to Maine.


I attended a Nikon photography workshop at Lime Rock a few years ago. Got press passes that allowed full pit access during a pro race. Second thing that surprised me was the quantity of tire dust in the air from cars leaving the pits.

First thing, of course, was the noise. It was indeed my first rodeo, and someone in the pits was kind enough to hand me a pair of foam ear plugs. (Every other time I've been at a track I've either been a spectator at a safe distance or had a helmet on.)

Got some great photos while hanging over the pit wall!


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## Where2 (Jan 31, 2020)

The EV may not make much brake dust, but the rust particles it drops on my wheels from the rotors surface rusting is just as much hassle to clean off the alloy wheels as brake dust... 

My wifes last car: 169k on the original front brake pads. Went through a set of rear pads every 55k, never had to replace the front pads.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 31, 2020)

lml999 said:


> I attended a Nikon photography workshop at Lime Rock a few years ago. Got press passes that allowed full pit access during a pro race. Second thing that surprised me was the quantity of tire dust in the air from cars leaving the pits.
> 
> First thing, of course, was the noise. It was indeed my first rodeo, and someone in the pits was kind enough to hand me a pair of foam ear plugs. (Every other time I've been at a track I've either been a spectator at a safe distance or had a helmet on.)
> 
> Got some great photos while hanging over the pit wall!


Lime Rock is really cool. After even an autocross event (lots of tortured tires and brakes) my hands and clothes would be covered in asphalt, tire, and brake dust. I do miss racing sometimes


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## begreen (Jan 31, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Lime Rock is really cool. After even an autocross event (lots of tortured tires and brakes) my hands and clothes would be covered in asphalt, tire, and brake dust. I do miss racing sometimes


I saw many races there too. Had a friend that worked there back in the 70s and spent many days with the pit crews. One job they had to do is keep brush cleared and get rid of the rattlesnakes which liked that area. This was during the days of Paul Newman racing. He tipped my friend $50 on day, just to see the reaction.


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## Ashful (Jan 31, 2020)

begreen said:


> I saw many races there too. Had a friend that worked there back in the 70s and spent many days with the pit crews. One job they had to do is keep brush cleared and get rid of the rattlesnakes which liked that area. This was during the days of Paul Newman racing. He tipped my friend $50 on day, just to see the reaction.


Check out Carolla’s documentary Winning, if you have any interest in or history with Newman.  Pretty cool story.









						Winning: The Racing Life of Paul Newman - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## SpaceBus (Jan 31, 2020)

begreen said:


> I saw many races there too. Had a friend that worked there back in the 70s and spent many days with the pit crews. One job they had to do is keep brush cleared and get rid of the rattlesnakes which liked that area. This was during the days of Paul Newman racing. He tipped my friend $50 on day, just to see the reaction.


My old landlord in NC met Paul Newman at LMP. According to James, my landlord, Newman was pretty cool. 

I'm sure working as a pit crew member is horrible for lung and skin health.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 1, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> My old landlord in NC met Paul Newman at LMP. According to James, my landlord, Newman was pretty cool.
> 
> I'm sure working as a pit crew member is horrible for lung and skin health.




Working, in general is horrible for lung and skin health....lol  Why I'm gainfully retired.,,,


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## DBoon (Feb 2, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> Isn't 'Sonic' a hamburger joint?


Ha ha, yep! A hedgehog too. Admittedly, a stupid name for a car (almost kept me from buying it) but the little hatchback is/was an under appreciated small car that was a lot of fun to drive, very quiet on the inside (great soundproofing) and pretty economical to boot. I could get 48 mpg in the summer driving gently on the highway with the 1.6L turbo and 6-speed manual. I had the after-market suspension kit installed to lower it another 2/3" of an inch. Mine has the sunroof, mid-level sound system, 1.6L turbo, manual transmission and suspension kit and I drove it off the lot for less than $20k cash. Can't beat that.


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## SidecarFlip (Feb 2, 2020)

That is allright.  I have a 14 Focus hatch, 5 speed and I get 41 with the ac on.  Everyone I know calls it a Fu*ckus so all good.  No electric vehicles here, never will be.  If I lived in an urban area maybe but at the end of the power line on a dirt road, 3 miles to the pavement, ain't gonna happen.

Wife has a Burb with a V8 that cannot pass a filling station.  Think it has Arabs running behind the tailpipe.


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## Smolder (Mar 3, 2020)

begreen said:


> That's engine braking, not generating power while braking and a lot noisier.



Still stops some of the “scary particles” though right?


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## Smolder (Mar 3, 2020)

I’m guessing the dry salt beds they strip mine (with diesel machinery) for lithium make more particulates than the brake dust saved... especially since recycling hasn’t gotten to lithium in any meaningful way (which hopefully happens).


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## begreen (Mar 3, 2020)

The ICE engine has it's fair share of impact too, but point taken. Lion batteries are recycled now, but the tech is changing. 









						It’s time to get serious about recycling lithium-ion batteries
					

A projected surge in electric-vehicle sales means that researchers must think about conserving natural resources and addressing battery end-of-life issues




					cen.acs.org


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## SpaceBus (Mar 4, 2020)

Smolder said:


> Still stops some of the “scary particles” though right?


Would you breathe in metallic particles by choice?


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## Smolder (Mar 5, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Would you breathe in metallic particles by choice?



Oh god... i would be far more worried about the tar dust from the road itself. Not to mention every car has a filter now. This is an amazingly non-existant problem.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 5, 2020)

Smolder said:


> Oh god... i would be far more worried about the tar dust from the road itself. Not to mention every car has a filter now. This is an amazingly non-existant problem.


I mean, except for people that live near roads, which is most people.


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## Smolder (Mar 5, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I mean, except for people that live near roads, which is most people.



Maybe if you lived along a nascar track... The world we live in is sanitary compared to just one generation before (i still fondly remember the smell of leaded gas exhaust), life expectancies are still climbing. I would honestly worry about being fat more than brake dust destroying lungs/environment/world.


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## Ashful (Mar 6, 2020)

Smolder said:


> Maybe if you lived along a nascar track... The world we live in is sanitary compared to just one generation before (i still fondly remember the smell of leaded gas exhaust), life expectancies are still climbing. I would honestly worry about being fat more than brake dust destroying lungs/environment/world.


You’re right that obesity is a bigger epidemic than anything caused by brake dust.  But the OP wasn‘t saying it was, I think the title was, “ANOTHER benefit...”.  

The other thing worth noting is that while obesity is more often a factor of one’s own life choices, the exposure to the various pollutants of vehicular traffic are largely dependent on the choices of others.

Damn, did I just say that?  I’m starting to sound like begreen.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 6, 2020)

Ashful said:


> You’re right that obesity is a bigger epidemic than anything caused by brake dust.  But the OP wasn‘t saying it was, I think the title was, “ANOTHER benefit...”.
> 
> The other thing worth noting is that while obesity is more often a factor of one’s own life choices, the exposure to the various pollutants of vehicular traffic are largely dependent on the choices of others.
> 
> Damn, did I just say that?  I’m starting to sound like begreen.


Indeed, the point being that I don't have a realistic choice about breathing in nasty air. Sure, I could live in the bush, but that's a little dramatic for the sake of clean air.


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## Smolder (Mar 6, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Indeed, the point being that I don't have a realistic choice about breathing in nasty air. Sure, I could live in the bush, but that's a little dramatic for the sake of clean air.



The “particle hysteria” is ironic considering that people have a million years of leveraging particulate producing fuels in order to survive.

Simply put, particulate levels are lower now in our inhabited areas when compared to any other point in mankind’s history.

This should have wiped us out... no?


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## begreen (Mar 6, 2020)

Smolder said:


> Simply put, particulate levels are lower now in our inhabited areas when compared to any other point in mankind’s history.


That's quite a statement. And debatable considering how much smaller populations were way back when. Source?


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## ABMax24 (Mar 6, 2020)

begreen said:


> That's quite a statement. And debatable considering how much smaller populations were way back when. Source?



I'm not sure that it needs to refer to regional air quality. Look at the use of open fires for heat, cooking, etc. The amount of particulates inhaled from these sources would have been immense.

The fundamental issue with comparing this to modern times is life expectancy. The results of continuous inhalation of fine particles usually shows up later in life, often beyond the life expectancy of these people.


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## begreen (Mar 6, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> I'm not sure that it needs to refer to regional air quality. Look at the use of open fires for heat, cooking, etc. The amount of particulates inhaled from these sources would have been immense.
> 
> The fundamental issue with comparing this to modern times is life expectancy. The results of continuous inhalation of fine particles usually shows up later in life, often beyond the life expectancy of these people.


I was assuming this referred to atmospheric particulate levels, not those in the local hut or cave. That's why I asked for the source of this claim.


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## ABMax24 (Mar 6, 2020)

begreen said:


> I was assuming this referred to atmospheric particulate levels, not those in the local hut or cave. That's why I asked for the source of this claim.



I would agree that's what it was referring to. My point being point sources would have probably played more of a role in adverse health effects.


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## Ashful (Mar 7, 2020)

Of course most of us enjoy better air quality is better today than some locales at specific times in the past.  Pre-Victorian London or Paris were horrendously bad, but so was the respiratory health of their citizens.  We are healthier today, thanks to improved sanitation and urban air quality.

A look at the disparate death rates of corona virus by nation and region will make one quickly consider the potential impact of air quality on our overall health.  There are many factors wrapped up in that, but urban air quality appears to be one of them.


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## Smolder (Mar 7, 2020)

begreen said:


> That's quite a statement. And debatable considering how much smaller populations were way back when. Source?



I should have said that populated areas are cleaner than they have ever been. We live with relatively clean air and water in our settlements now.

Population density of a Neolithic settlement was probably similar to that of a suburb now (maybe a little denser). Within that populated area you would have had open hearth fires inside and outside for heat, cooking and forging all powered by sod, peat, wood or dung... in more recent times North America heat was almost exclusively coal in the second half the 1800s to the mid 1900s when oil became the fuel of choice... today vs 30 years ago i can drive by most pulp mills, generating stations or refineries and hardly, if not at all, smell anything. What would you say isn’t right about this statement?


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## Smolder (Mar 7, 2020)

Ashful said:


> Of course most of us enjoy better air quality is better today than some locales at specific times in the past.  Pre-Victorian London or Paris were horrendously bad, but so was the respiratory health of their citizens.  We are healthier today, thanks to improved sanitation and urban air quality.
> 
> A look at the disparate death rates of corona virus by nation and region will make one quickly consider the potential impact of air quality on our overall health.  There are many factors wrapped up in that, but urban air quality appears to be one of them.



Corona virus vs air? I think baseline health and age of the population are the factors followed closely by how quickly those severely affected are given critical care... no?


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## begreen (Mar 7, 2020)

Smolder said:


> What would you say isn’t right about this statement?


With that clarification, for Euro/Americans yes. But for many parts of the world (most if based on population centers) no.


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## begreen (Mar 7, 2020)

Smolder said:


> Corona virus vs air? I think baseline health and age of the population are the factors followed closely by how quickly those severely affected are given critical care... no?


The virus's effects seem to be worse for those with compromised respiratory systems which are more common in Asiatic cities due to the high level of air pollution. Interestingly, sex also appears to be a factor. The mortality rate appears to be much higher for men. That has me wonder if smoking is a factor.


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## semipro (Mar 23, 2020)

Related:
Based on my experience with EVs I'd suggest that tire-related emissions may be more than with ICE vehicles. 








						Tire Wear Pollution 1,000 Times Worse Than Exhaust Emissions: Study
					

And yet it remains unregulated.




					money.yahoo.com


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## begreen (Mar 23, 2020)

semipro said:


> Related:
> Based on my experience with EVs I'd suggest that tire-related emissions may be more than with ICE vehicles.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that has always concerned me. Gets washed into our rivers, lakes and Puget Sound.


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## Ashful (Mar 23, 2020)

semipro said:


> Related:
> Based on my experience with EVs I'd suggest that tire-related emissions may be more than with ICE vehicles.
> 
> 
> ...


Add to that the fact that most (at least around here) Tesla's are AWD, and even more and more ICE's are AWD, tire wear may be on the rise.


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## begreen (Mar 24, 2020)

Time for hovercars and mr. Fusion.


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## ABMax24 (Mar 24, 2020)

semipro said:


> Related:
> Based on my experience with EVs I'd suggest that tire-related emissions may be more than with ICE vehicles.
> 
> 
> ...



I call total BS on that article. Unless you are burning donuts there is no way you are emitting 1000 times more emissions from the tires than the exhaust. They say 4.5 milligrams per km for exhaust emissions, 1000 times that would be 4.5 grams per km of tire wear. If i car had tires that weighed a total of 100 kg that would mean in 22,000 km the entirety of all 4 tires would be worn away. Not to mention the wearable part of the tire, the tread, makes up a fairly small portion of the mass of the tire, the carcass of the tire that doesn't wear makes up far more mass.


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## Ashful (Mar 24, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> I call total BS on that article. Unless you are burning donuts there is no way you are emitting 1000 times more emissions from the tires than the exhaust. They say 4.5 milligrams per km for exhaust emissions, 1000 times that would be 4.5 grams per km of tire wear. If i car had tires that weighed a total of 100 kg that would mean in 22,000 km the entirety of all 4 tires would be worn away. Not to mention the wearable part of the tire, the tread, makes up a fairly small portion of the mass of the tire, the carcass of the tire that doesn't wear makes up far more mass.


Could it be an issue of how those emissions are measured and quantified?  In other words, by weight versus by volume?  Not a lot of weight in exhaust emission particulates.


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## ABMax24 (Mar 24, 2020)

Ashful said:


> Could it be an issue of how those emissions are measured and quantified?  In other words, by weight versus by volume?  Not a lot of weight in exhaust emission particulates.



Maybe, but I still find it very hard to believe that in 2020 if tires were so much worse than exhaust emissions that yahoo news is the first to report on it.


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