# VC Vigilant question- Please help



## Airmacs (Jun 24, 2014)

Hey guys,

This is only my second post, but i've been reading alot on the forums recently. I am looking at buying a used VC vigilant stove. It is the multifuel stove, with a coal hopper and everything. The price is pretty good too. Only problem is I dont want to burn with coal. I want to burn with wood only. So my question to you guys is, Is it possible to remove the coal hopper assembly from this stove and have it perform efficiently and safely as a normal VC wood burner?

Should I buy it and modify it if possible... or just keep my eyes open for a good VC wood burner?


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## Grisu (Jun 24, 2014)

Any particular reason why you seem to consider only VC stoves? What is a pretty good price? You can get perfectly fine new EPA-stoves for less than $1K e. g. an Englander NC30. 

What is your chimney setup? To my knowledge, the Vigilant needs an 8" flue which will increase the chimney cost quite a bit to the point that you can get a new stove with a 6" flue for almost the same amount.


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## Airmacs (Jun 25, 2014)

My chimney set up is currently a 6 inch pipe chimney. I didn't realize that the Most of the VC's take an 8 inch chimney.  I found the VC multi fuel vigilant for 500 bland it comes with warming shelves and screen cover. I thought it was a pretty good deal. 

As far as sticking with the old VC's, I guess we are biased towards them. We have a defiant in our cabin in NY. And we just wanted to bring that look into our own house. Just a preference, I guess we don't have to stick with it! 

Another model that we looked at was a late model upland 107. My neighbor is selling this for only 100 bucks. But it requires a 7 inch stove pipe, which would require me to redo my current chimney situation also.


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## Jags (Jun 25, 2014)

Most multi fuel burners don't do particularly well with either fuel type.  A good coal burner will have a different design type than a good wood burner.  Personally, I would move on for a better wood stove IF wood is gonna be your choice of fuel.  Are you looking for meaningful heat?  24/7 or fill in?  Whole house or room heater?  Give us an idea of what you are trying to accomplish and we can give you about a hundred options to confuse the crap out of ya.


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## Airmacs (Jun 25, 2014)

Okay so here is the whole story:

We are in the process of converting a garage into an apartment (this apartment will be our main residence) It is block construction.  We will be framing and insulating it. Currently there is a small liberty stove in there with 6 inch stove pipe. It's just single wall stove pipe ducted right through the block. (I understand I will need to use insulated chimney pipe where I go through the wall.) The liberty is going to be taken out so we need a new one to put it. We would like something that has a nice viewer on it because we like the ambiance of the fire. We are going to have electric 220 baseboard heat in that garage, so I would like to use the woodstove as supplemental heat, to lessen the sting of how much it would cost to heat with baseboard alone.

The apartment (bedroom/living space, bathroom, kitchen) is only about  600-700 sf with 8 foot ceilings. 

Were trying to do this as cheaply as possible. Which is why we were looking at older stoves because they are cheaper, still throw heat, and the wife likes the look. 

From what I've been reading... I think I agree with you guys that a multi fuel stove is not for me.


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## Jags (Jun 25, 2014)

Take a good hard look at the englander nc-13 as well as some of the other budget minded stoves on the market (Drolet, etc.)  There are some pretty capable stoves for short money that are EPA cert., good view and get the job of heating done.  What is it worth to you to burn 40% less wood for the same heat?  That is the approx difference between EPA and non-EPA.

ETA - NOTE: EPA stoves like dry wood. They will be frustrating if trying to burn less than dry fuel.

Another ETA: At 600-700 sqft you are on the pivot point of size that can throw a curve ball.  Small enough that you can't hardly use a big stove.  The problem area is stove size and overnight burns.  Getting a stove "right" sized to not blow you out the door and still have good burn times limits your options.


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## Grisu (Jun 25, 2014)

Jags has some good points. In particular, for that small space you would be best served with a small catalytic wood stove like the Woodstock Keystone or Blazeking Sirocco/Chinook 20. Those will give you long burn times without heating you out of that space but they will not come cheap. If you are on a budget I would look at the already mentioned Englander NC13, Pacific Energy True North, a medium-sized Drolet like the Eldorado, or Timberwolf EPA 2200 when buying new. For a prettier looking stove, Hearthstone has the (small) Craftsbury on sale right now. Please note that any non-catalytic stove with a firebox of less than 2 cu ft probably won't give you an overnight burn. Thus, you either have to re-load the stove at night or use the electric baseboards in the early morning hours. 

Not sure how you plan on subdividing the apartment but be aware that most local building codes don't allow a stove to be installed in a bedroom.


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## begreen (Jun 25, 2014)

I'd rule out the Vigilant, it's too much stove for that space. In older VC stoves you would probably want the VC Resolute I. The caveat is that you will want one in good operating condition. That may get challenging when looking at a 34+ yr old stove. A newer VC Intrepid II would work if you can find one in good condition. It is a small catalytic stove that still has the classic VC look. There are many new stoves that are good looking that would do the job well if you can find the funds for. Some examples of these would be the Jotul F400 Castine, Woodstock Keystone, BlazeKing Ashford 20, Pacific Energy Alderlea T4, Quadrafire Yosemite, Napoleon 1100C, Hampton H2or H3, Hearthstone Shelburne.


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## Airmacs (Jun 25, 2014)

Thanks for the wealth of knowledge! I see better now what size I should be looking for. Ive been looking at the englander 13 and it looks like it might be the best match for what we are trying to accomplish for around the money we have to spend.

Again you guys were all great. Thanks so much for the guidance.


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## Grisu (Jun 25, 2014)

Englander makes good stoves and has an excellent customer service should you ever need it; you will be happy. One drawback of the NC13 is that it needs a hearth with a r-value of 2. I assume the garage has a slab floor so I would just leave the hearth area unfinished or only add some non-combustible material (e. g. tiles) on top to give it a nicer look. Then, get your wood ready. As any modern EPA-stove, the NC13 needs dry, seasoned wood with a moisture content of less than 20 %. That's usually achieved by stacking the splits in a sunny and windy location for one or two years.


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## Airmacs (Jun 25, 2014)

What could I do on the walls to reduce the clearance? from outside to inside its going to be block, then studs and insulation. The majority of the wall to the stove is on will be wood paneling except for behind the stove. 

What could I put there and how should I install it to reduce required clearance?


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## begreen (Jun 25, 2014)

Clearance requirements are to combustibles. Bare cement block will have zero clearance requirements. Anything you build up from that point will depend on its combustibility. Add metal studs and roxul insulation behind the stove and it still will have zeor clearance requirements.


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## Airmacs (Jun 25, 2014)

So if I did metal studs and roxul, then hardy backer and some kind of tile I could have zero clearance requirements?


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## begreen (Jun 25, 2014)

Yes, for behind the stove. FWIW personally I prefer Durock backer board.


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## Airmacs (Jun 27, 2014)

So if I'm piping through (from interior to exterior order) some type of tile, durock, fire insulation with metal studs and finally 8 inch block, what type if chimney pipe should I pipe through all that with? Dbl wall? Triple wall? Also, how far does a 3 " wooden mantle have to be above the pipe exiting through the wall?

Sorry for all the questions! Just want to make sure I'm doing this right!


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## begreen (Jun 27, 2014)

If this is going through a block wall then double-wall, stainless, class A is fine. It can be a stub off of the class A tee on the outside. Note that this is different from double-wall interior stove pipe. The mantel clearance will likely be determined by the interior stove pipe or the stove clearance requirement. For the Vigilant that is 36" from the stove top according to the manual. This can be reduced to 18" with a mantel shield attached to the mantel. The distance from the class A pipe is 2", but the stove pipe will trump that clearance requirement depending on how far it is from the nearest combustible. Double-wall stove pipe requires 6" clearance and single-wall requires 18".


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## Airmacs (Jul 3, 2014)

If I am passing though all non-combustables then would regular stove pipe suffice? Im literally only going through ceramic and block. Is this doable?


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## begreen (Jul 3, 2014)

Stove pipe is permitted within the room envelope only.


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## Airmacs (Jul 11, 2014)

Allright, i've got one last question (hopefully).

I am trying to figure out the chimney situation. I decided to stick with the current stove that was already there (upland 107) but it was never piped out correctly. The stove needs 8 inch pipe and they had it reduced to 6 inch and piped out a window. (pretty scary!) So I am trying to install it properly. I plan on coming out of the stove with a 90 and going back right through the wall. Once outside i would put in a T (for clean out) and then go up 7 more feet (2 feet higher than anything within 10 feet to achieve proper draft.) 

The wall we are going through will be (from inside to out) stone tile, thinset, durarock board, roxul fire insulation, metal studs and finally 8 inch concrete block 

So here is where I get confused.


 I believe I have to stop the stove pipe at the stone tile (correct me if i am wrong)
 I do not know what to use to get through the wall. Should i use double wall stove pipe, double wall chimney pipe, some sort of thimble, terracotta chimney liner?
Once I am outside what should I use? I had someone tell me I could use B-vent but after researching a bit it seems that is really dangerous. It seems like maybe a galvanized double wall pipe might be the cheapest option that is still safe.
Do they make double wall T's for outside clean out?
Any insight would be helpful... Defiantly a learning process. I think it goes without saying that we are trying to do this as cheaply as possible, while still being safe  

Thank you!


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## begreen (Jul 11, 2014)

I think the Upland 107 took a 7" flue, but 8" may be easier to find. Use double-wall class A (chimney pipe) to go through the wall. It will connect solidly with the tee and will have finishing trim for the interior. Yes, they make class A tees with a clean out cap on the bottom. This is a common installation. You will also be able to get support brackets, braces, caps, etc.. Stick with one brand of pipe for the easiest installation. Here are a couple examples. The first has an extension on the tee to lower the cleanout. You may not need this. The stainless chimney pipe companies have good installation documents on their websites. Do you know what brand pipe you will be using?


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## Airmacs (Jul 11, 2014)

I haven't decided which pipe I am using. I would like to use whatever is cheapest. Any recommendations?


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## begreen (Jul 11, 2014)

Folks seem to be getting the best deals on Selkirk SuperVent from Menards. 
http://www.selkirkcorp.com/SuperVent/Product.aspx?id=220 (install doc link in right column)


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## Owen1508 (Jul 11, 2014)

begreen said:


> I think the Upland 107 took a 7" flue,
> 
> View attachment 135294
> View attachment 135295


Both the 107 and 207 have 7" flue.  good memory BG


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## Airmacs (Jul 12, 2014)

Allright,

I apologize for so many questions... But it seems like going straight up and out is better for draft and possible cheaper too. The joists are on 16 inch centers... How do i get stove pipe up through there and still meet clearances? Do i need to cut and box out a section or are there piece that can get this job done? 

My guess is it would be cheaper to box out an area up there with metal studs instead of buying expensive kits to get you through, but i dont know if that is safe! 

what do you guys think?


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## begreen (Jul 12, 2014)

Stove pipe does not get used here either. Chimney pipe projects down into the ceiling support box. The ceiling support box will maintain the required 2" chimney clearance. In the case of 8" pipe it will be 12" square. Yes, you box it in. I recommend using screws to attach the stud braces instead of nails. That way you are less likely to crack the ceiling sheetrock or pop sheet rock nails nearby. Wood studs are fine for this. 

Again, the pipe manufacturers have some excellent install docs. I like DuraVent's coverage in particular.


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## Airmacs (Jul 15, 2014)

Okay, I looked at Menards and at some of the pipe manufacturers documents. Seems like my best bet would be to go through the wall as we originally planned! Im going to go with double wall stove pipe from the stove, to a masonry adapter which will be cemented in. Then convert to Class A stainless with a T for clean out and then chimney pipe! Thank you guys for all your knowledge!


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## begreen (Jul 15, 2014)

Don't hesitate to ask questions. And better yet if you can, post interior and exterior pictures so that folks can spot any potential issues before you start.


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## Grisu (Jul 15, 2014)

It is not an EPA-stove but does the Upland maybe have some kind of minimum flue requirement? Right now you are planning to use an oversized flue with maybe 10 ft vertical rise and two 90s and a horizontal section in between. I am wondering whether you may not get draft problems.


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