# Kedel or Okofen



## RightSeatCessna (Oct 9, 2013)

Good evening,

Looking into a pellet boiler to replace my oil boiler. Does anyone have any experience with the Kedel or Okofen with MeSys? If you have any other recommendations please let me know.

Thanks


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## Chris Hoskin (Oct 10, 2013)

I would suggest that they are not directly comparable.  The Okofen is a Cadillac and the Kedel is an Oldsmobile.  Fröling and Okofen are the Caddys, Kedel and Pellergy are the Olds and boilers like a Harmon or Traeger would be the Chevy.  All will get you to the grocery store but the level of sophistication, ease of use and price are what put each in their respective categories.  What your heating needs are and how much you are willing to interact with the boiler (tending and maintenance) and, of course, your budget will determine which boiler is best for you.  None of them are a bad choice.


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## foamit up (Oct 10, 2013)

Have you checked the BIOWIN.  Great Boiler for pellets and smart design. Call Marc 781 3088583. He advertises on here. If you want to take a look at one in use i am by Augusta.  Set it and forget it. Foamit Up


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## henfruit (Oct 10, 2013)

Ahona has a nice line of cast iron units. Complete with bin under 6 k


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## kopeck (Oct 10, 2013)

I've been keeping my eye on the Kedel, not that I'm in the market but it's been an interesting story to watch.

They seem like simple, well built units.  I've seen one at the fair and liked it.  That being said there are others that are great options too.

If you like to keep your business completely with in Maine then the Kedel is a good choice.

K


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## heaterman (Oct 10, 2013)

I'll second the Windhager. It's a nice solid mix of technology and simplicity. It's construction is pretty robust too, about 200-300 pounds more weight than the Kedel for the same output if I recall. The Okofen is a very good boiler but it's mechanisms are a fair amount more complex than either the Windhager or the Kedel. 

From the Windhagers we have installed I can tell you with a straight face that they have all performed flawlessly. No issues of any kind and they have a control that is able to be adapted to virtually any type of heating system.

Some other things I like about them are.........in no particular order....

the double wall stainless "air cooled" firepot
automatic ash removal to the on board ash container
Automatic cleaning of the flue passages, firepot/burner, and ash collection area at each start up or every 6 hours of operation.
Lifetime ignitor warranty
Simple to use control that will interface with everything from a traditional old round Honeywell thermostat to a modern 0-10VDC building management system.
Control tells you when it needs to be cleaned (about every 600 hours of run time)
Very robust pellet feed motor and auger. (best I have seen)
Foolproof on board fire suppression should there ever be heat built up in the feed tube.
Around 700 pounds of heavy gauge steel.
Control readout monitors flue temp, firing rate, tons of pellets used, time till next cleaning, water temp, all with a push of a single button
Flue temps are extremely low. We typically see around 230* at maximum firing rate which to me speaks volumes about the actual efficiency of the boiler. Most of the time less than 210*.
Very proven product with over 45,000 BioWin's in use through out the world.
Last but not least, I was thoroughly impressed with the factory, the workers and the management at Windhager when I visited their place in Austria. 1st class operation and 1st class people.


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## DZL_Damon (Oct 12, 2013)

I can not describe how happy I am with my Kedel! I did some extensive research for months before deciding to go with the Kedel with ZERO buyers remorse.

The variability of the controls is amazing. I run the largest, most sophisticated wood pellet boiler known in the western hemisphere and I was amazed that the Kedel had many of the features my $4 million boiler has and even more.

I liked the analogy of the boilers to the cars. The Kedel is top of the line and much like a fully loaded Oldsmobile;comparable to the Cadillac for features, but it is priced like the Chevy. My 102kbtu Kedel was actually LESS expensive than the tried and true (but simple) Harman PB105.

Your installing contractor will fully set it up, but you have access to tweak and adjust EVERYTHING from the fully integrated touch screen OR by logging in online and doing it from anywhere in the world on a computer or your phone. It has excellent trending data and logging of your fuel consumption to fine tune and monitor the unit. There are several extra outputs, temperature sensor inputs, and features for doing extra custom set ups like I have done in my house. It will email you and text message you if it goes into alarm, or you can have it set up to simply send an alert to your service contract company and they will let you know there is an issue.

It's all set up to work with your solar hot water systems, outside temperature curves with limits and changed temperature points based on the temperature, DHW priority that will operate even if Outside air dictates not to run, O2 control with adjustable controller, variable firing rate also fully adjustable, etc etc.

I would not hesitate to go with the Kedel at all. Its variability with outstanding controls and web interphase along with high efficiency and self cleaning make it the best bang for the buck. For fun, check out how mine is doing, look through the trends and consumption rates. You have even more controls if you were logged in with more views. I forced mine on today even though the weather compensation curve is currently set up to not come on until its below 50*F for 3 hours. I have mine going as a primary/secondary to an 80 gallon buffer tank but you do NOT need to do this. No buffer tank is necessary, I just wanted to eliminates start/stops in the heel season with my 5 zones + DHW.

Here is mine: http://stokercloud.dk/dev/showmain.php?mac=diesel

Feel free to contact me with any questions and I'll be glad to weigh in.


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## pellets4me (Oct 12, 2013)

@RightSeatCessna,

I service and install both brands you are interested in and this is one of the most common questions I deal with.  Both boilers are very reliable, efficient, and are designed to be your sole source of heat, without the need of a backup system.  They both have a 30 yr warranty on the vessel, and both have auger or vacuum feed options to allow for various design configurations.  The Kedel is much more affordable per btu and has many of the same features as the Okofen.  The Kedel excels in its user friendliness.  It comes standard with a control that provides remote access to the boiler from your pc or smartphone, to monitor operation, pellet usage, make adjustments and even utilize the nearest weather station for outdoor reset control.  It can email you and your service provider in case of an alarm, which is a great feature from the service provider's point of view and all of this is standard.  The Okofen has this capability but it is not as user friendly and is typically a 1,500.00 add on and outdoor reset is also an additional control and cost.  Okofen does have a convenient ash removal feature that augers ash into a separate container making it easier to dispose of, while the Kedel has an ash drawer which you must empty periodically.  Okofen also has a wider range of Pellet Storage available for challenging installs.  My experience has been in most instances the installed price of an Okofen exceeds that of a Kedel by 5-6,000 dollars.   Most of my customers pondering the same question you are, have selected the Kedel, unless they were really in love with the ash-augering feature of the Okofen, or had a circumstance that restricted them from using one of Kedel's pellet storage solutions. (Rare)

Hope this helps.


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## sinnian (Oct 13, 2013)

DZL_Damon said:


> My 102kbtu Kedel was actually LESS expensive than the tried and true (but simple) Harman PB105..



I am calling bull on this.  Kedel's start at 13K+ installed, and do not provide DHW (like the Harman) w/o additional costs.  In fact, if I am not mistaken, they just went up an additional $1,600 due to "costs of installation" ~ all the while the unit wholesales for less than 4K.


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## DZL_Damon (Oct 13, 2013)

I just checked their website: They start their _estimates_ at $11,400 installed for the 102k model like I have. They state the owner should be prepared to spend up to another $2500 in installation costs based on how complex your set up is and what you are planning to do. So, I'm assuming if you ask your contractor to drop the boiler in the basement and hook up to existing supply/return and you have electrical already set up for use it will be less expensive. If wires are being pulled across the house for electricity, and you are jammed in a hard to work spot that takes longer, and a lot of plumbing has to be redone it could cost you more just like it would with any boiler if you have a unique set up.

I paid several hundred less for my Kedel (not installed) than a slightly discountedHarman PB105 at my local stoveshop... perhaps my local stoveshop is overpriced? I did not opt for the 700# hopper or air compressor as I was making my own pellet hopper and I already had an 80 gallon Ingersoll Rand 15 feet away so no air compressor was needed either.

As for DHW, DHW is set up like a zone just like most boilers to an indirect water heater... no there is no provision for an on demand DHW coil in the boiler. I currently have a switching relay with priority running my DHW just like it was with the oil boiler. I think they list possible additional costs as in you were to BUY a DHW heater for a new built house, etc. For me to have the Kedel run the DHW, it would cost me less than maybe $40 for an additional temperature sensor to put in the DHW heaters thermal well vs a traditional aquastat. After that sensor is in there, the Kedel can toggle the circ pump from it's software for whatever setting and span you desire. You can even set 3 times a day to start the Kedel early to make sure DHW is up to temp before you would normally consume hot water. You can also set another higher minimum firing rate for making DHW over your standard minimum firing rate for heat, so you have a quicker recovery time. I'm actually going to convert my current DHW system to getting control from the Kedel for these features

I'm not 100% on this yet, but I'm pretty sure you can have a 3 way valve (or x2 2 way valves) going to the house heating loop and the DHW heating loop. It will open DHW and close the house loop for priority heating. I can see this being greatly adventageous with my set up since I'm running an 80 gallon buffer tank for my multiple zones. In the summer I could use the DHW priority without wasting money (and unnecessary heat) going into charging up my buffer when I just need enough for a shower.

I assure you sinnian, no bull! Give them a call if you have questions and talk to their nearest certified installation contractor around you. I spoke with a lot of people about a lot of units, and did a lot of very calculated decisions before landing on Kedel. I called all available pellet boiler suppliers at the time (early this year) that were in the state. I visited the local Harman shop 10 minutes from my house many times and really did contemplate the readily available Harman many times that was sitting on the shop floor ready for immediate delivery. The guys all know who I am since I burn more pellets before coffee break than most burn all year... even with the discount they offered me the Kedel was less expensive and the Harman just didn't have the options and connectivity that I wanted. I did not install the Kedel because they were conveniently next door (they were not) or readily available at the time (I had to wait a few months at the time to get my unit ordered since they just started selling them). I purposefully made my decision even though it was less convenient at the time because I felt it was truely the best bang for the buck.

Are the MESys boilers and Frolings awesome?? Yeah... they are! But MEsys started at $10,000 for their smaller unit not installed and Froling was even more. The Pellergy's and Harmans were not self cleaning, and offered no trending or remote monitoring/control even though cost was comparable.

Would I have been happy with the Harman PB105 if the Kedel was not available? You bet! I know a few local guys that love theirs and have checked out their units before I made my decision. But the additional features such as O2 control for efficiency, touch screen, trends, web control, compressed air clean out, self cleaning heat exchanger, and loads of other options really helped make my decision easier.

I'd be happy to answer any questions about the Kedel to the best of my abilitys. They are quite new, so information is not as readily available from people that have one at their house yet. There are over 30,000 units in Europe and they just got to our shores about a year or so ago by Interphase Energy out of Portland, ME. If you want some real life feedback and experience with the Kedel, feel free to give me a shout. I am probably slightly more familiar with them than the standard home owner since I installed my own unit and got very involved in the process... so I would be happy to also weigh in for new owners that have questions about operations.

-Diesel


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## sinnian (Oct 13, 2013)

DZL_Damon said:


> I paid several hundred less for my Kedel (not installed) than a slightly discountedHarman PB105 at my local stoveshop... perhaps my local stoveshop is overpriced?
> 
> I assure you sinnian, no bull!
> 
> -Diesel



Well I apologize than Diesel, sounds like you got a heck of a deal on your Kedel.  Great units ~ I wish they were around in 2008...


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## sinnian (Oct 13, 2013)

DZL_Damon said:


> I'm not 100% on this yet, but I'm pretty sure you can have a 3 way valve (or x2 2 way valves) going to the house heating loop and the DHW heating loop. It will open DHW and close the house loop for priority heating. I can see this being greatly adventageous with my set up since I'm running an 80 gallon buffer tank for my multiple zones. In the summer I could use the DHW priority without wasting money (and unnecessary heat) going into charging up my buffer when I just need enough for a shower.
> 
> -Diesel



I put in a 50 gal electric DHW tank that is set up with my pellet boiler so when the PB is in use it preheats the water and really never turns on, and in the summer when the PB is off it just runs electric.  If I were doing it now, I would get one of the hybrid heat pump water heaters since I need to run a dehumidifier anyway in the summer.


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## DZL_Damon (Oct 14, 2013)

sinnian said:


> Well I apologize than Diesel, sounds like you got a heck of a deal on your Kedel.  Great units ~ I wish they were around in 2008...


 
No problem. I'm sure that Harman is keeping your house nice and warm too and should be for years to come. New models of everything comes out everyday but my olderstuff still gets the job done well... my phone was obsolete 2 days after I got it, my computer is slow in relative terms, they have a better model of my car now... you know how it goes.

As for the heat pump for DHW, check out craigslist in Augusta. I bought one of those external units for $350 from that fellow that bought out the remaining stock of Hallowell Heat Pump in Bangor when they went out of business. They had a copyright infringement over the Nyle or Gyser units I believe (they poached on of their engineers that was working on the dehumidifier/heat pump units). They look nothing alike, but they share enough off the shelf internals to be an issue.

Anyway, they are 110vac and I have been making hotwater for x2 all summer for just under $22/month per my Kill-a-watt meter that has been plugged in all summer. Something like $0.73/day. It would be even less if I put the unit on a timer which I plan on doing next summer for a few hours in the morning and a few hours in the evening for dishes. It turns on it's internal pump every 15-20 minutes to check the temperature of the tanks water. Doing this is disturbing the natural stratification of hot water some and the unit comes on several times a day for short runs to "top off" the temperature in the tank. This is pretty unnecessary and I'm sure I could cut down to $0.50/day if I ran it on a timer so it didn't top itself off all day. Then again, my downstairs (not subground) never got above 70*F all summer which is just awesome. I actually dumped the hot water a few times to force it to run to have some sanctuary from the heat a few times this summer.

Recovery time is slow at about 1-1.5 hours on my 30 gallon SuperStor but 2 folks can take a moderate shower in a row.... I'm still working on the definition of "moderate" with my wife.... I helped my best friend install one in his house into his 41 gallon Amtrol Boiler mate. Him and his wife can take whatever kind of shower they want in a row and not run out of water. His was more simple to hook up than mine since I had to make a 3/8" soft copper tube go in the 3/4" feed pipe on the bottom for my hot water discharge out of the HP. If I took suction off the bottom and discharged in the top... it would give you a cold shot of water during a shower when it came on.

Tom Gocze is selling Nyle units for $300 on craigslist and ebay as well... he has over 900 of them in his warehouse when I swung by to buy cheap foam board insulation from him! The only bummer is they are 220vac not 110vac. Nice units though, and 220vac is not the end of the world.


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## DBNH22 (Oct 15, 2013)

I would reccomend the Windhager Biowin.   I had mine installed about a month ago and have been using it for heat for about a week now.  So far so good.  I looked into the Kedels, Harmanns, Okofens and Frohlings.

I thought there was kind of an unspoken policy on this site not to discuss pricing for equipment in detail in the public forums.  Personally I do not like discussing numbers with regard to how much I paid for my boiler.  That's between me and the distributor.  If other prospective buyers can work out deals for themselves, more power to them.

Anyhow...... 

What I found in my situation was:

Okofens and Frohlings: Both very nice but my pockets aren't that deep.  Nothing else to say there.

Kedel and Windhager:  Windhager was a bit more modestly priced.  I spoke with Jacob w/ Kedel once but never talked ot him again after our initial conversation.  Not sure why but that's just how it worked out.  I then spoke with Marc w/ Windhager, he provided a demo, I spoke to others on here regarding the units, and I ended up buying one.  I have no experience w/ Kedel and never even laid eyes on one in person but there seem to be those on this site who've dealt with them that speak positively of the brand.  As for the Windhager there are also many people on here with good things to say and I personally own one and am happy with it so far.  The build quality is top notch.

Harmann:  I looked at these because there is a dealer close to where I live and they are affordable.  There has been a lot made out of an issue the PB105s have/had with their burnpots developing bubbles and needing to be replaced.  I saw one in person and the quality and level of engineering just did not seem to come close to the Windhager which was in the same nighborhood as far as pricing.


Whichever route you go you'll most likely be investing at least 10K in a pellet boiler after the installation, chimney liner and other costs.  That's a pretty costly mistake if you end up regretting any of the choices you made along the way.    Please forgive me if I'm stating the obvious but what you need to do is do your homework;  talk to as many people as you can about the different brands, setup times to go watch demos, read the product literature etc etc

Best of luck in whatever choices you make and please let us know what you decide.


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## Tim04757 (Oct 15, 2013)

I purchased a Kedel in September after looking at several of the manufacturers out there.  I was looking for a high efficiency unit, automation, and customization.  I liked the Okofen and the Froling but found the price tag to be way to unrealistic for an average budget.  When I found the Kedel I knew it was the right choice.  I have the 102,000 BTU unit with the 700# hopper. The installation was easy and took less than a day so installation costs were low.  I had already updated a lot of the plumbing on my own which also cut down on the cost of the local techs.  It was mentioned in a previous post, but I also got my Kedel for less than the cost of the Harmon and FAR FAR less than the Okofen or Froling.  As for the functionality of the Kedel, it has everything I wanted and then some. The efficiency of the unit is excellent.  The lack of heat loss up the chimney allows that  I can place my hand on the stove pipe while it is running and not lose the skin from my hand as with other units.  The system is self cleaning and came with the air compressor.  It cleans the burner plate automatically after consuming a customized  amount pellets, and at the end of every cycle.  The heat exchanger is also self cleaning after a user customized period of time, as well as at the beginning of each run cycle. Other units have an ash compaction system so the ash doesn't have to be emptied for extended periods, however, this is just more moving parts to break , and service, and the ash container will be that much heavier. Although I haven't had to do any of the very seldom 'manual cleaning' yet, it is extremely simple.  I have been burning pellets for over a month ash drawer isn't even close to being full. (This i know will vary by brand)  There are videos online of how to clean these units and it is as easy, or easier, as it looks.  
I also have to comment on the controls.  It is all touch screen controls.  An additional benefit of hooking the boiler to the internet allows me to monitor the unit in real time.  If I want to change something, I can do it from anywhere.  The unit automatically adjusts itself to the weather conditions based on internet weather data, or an exterior temp sensor, so it runs at the best efficiency on sunny vs. snowy days. It is completely user adjustable at the touch of a finger. It even tells me how many pounds of pellets left in my hopper. I have also chosen to allow my local techs to view the unit in real time so they can offer suggestions or recognize  any issues before they happen.  In the event of any unforeseen issues, the unit will email me and my techs automatically.  Or at least I'm told it will, I have had ZERO issues or complaints to test it. 

So, to answer the initial question asked on this thread, Okofen or Kedel?  KEDEL.  If any of my friends were to tell me they were considering spending the extra money for the Okofen,  I would invite them to my house and show them my Kedel.  Then I would ask them if they felt they needed to spend twice what I did

I would also offer my take on the vehicle analogy. I would say it is like having a vehicle with different trim packages.  They both drive the same but do you really need to spend thousands of dollars extra for the chrome wheels, and a dashboard that tells you how to drive when you already know how?

And since the thread asked about experiences with either unit, I'll let everyone know that I  have a blog about my ongoing experiences with the Kedel, from a homeowners perspective, as everyone seems to be asking the same questions.  Here is the link:  http://kedelproject.blogspot.com/  I have also posted some of the cleaning videos.


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## DBNH22 (Mar 21, 2014)

Hey rightseat, have you purchased a pellet boiler or gotten closer to purchasing one?


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## peakbagger (Mar 21, 2014)

Maine is trying to free up bucks for Pellet boiler installs and NH has a 30% incentive for pellet boilers that folks need to check out. Of the course the sweetest deal was Berlin NH and now  Farmington Me where they throw money at anyone willing to install one.


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## DZL_Damon (Mar 21, 2014)

peakbagger said:


> Maine is trying to free up bucks for Pellet boiler installs and NH has a 30% incentive for pellet boilers that folks need to check out. Of the course the sweetest deal was Berlin NH and now  Farmington Me where they throw money at anyone willing to install one.


 Efficiency Maine DOES have a $5000 rebate for automated pellet boilers right now. I sent in my paperwork this morning


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## RightSeatCessna (Mar 21, 2014)

I had the folks from Kedel stop by to give me pricing, I was quite shocked to hear 22k for the 54k BTUs unit. With the rebate I'm looking at 17k which isn't terrible. This includes a water pump for hot water. I currently have a 1991 Utica running at 78% efficiency with a brands 50gal storage tank r hot water but only use 600 gallons a year of oil to heat and hot water. I am thinking I m better off with my current Englander and Utica running it into the ground. My other issue is that I don't have much storage (basement is finished) and the three ton storage option will take away 75% of my storage. For the moment I have decided to invest my money in my aviation career and moved the Kedel on the back burner for the moment.


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## RightSeatCessna (Mar 21, 2014)

Was there a shortage of pellets in bulk delivery like there was in the forty lb bags/tons


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## maple1 (Mar 21, 2014)

RightSeatCessna said:


> I was quite shocked to hear 22k for the 54k BTUs unit.


 
Holy crap!


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## sinnian (Mar 21, 2014)

RightSeatCessna said:


> Was there a shortage of pellets in bulk delivery like there was in the forty lb bags/tons



Nope


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## RightSeatCessna (Mar 21, 2014)

I should clarify that it was for the 68k unit with 3 ton storage option and indirect hot water or an 80gal heat pump. Since I only burn 600 gals of oil my payback may not be for another 15 years. By then I may have natural gas as an option...


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## DZL_Damon (Mar 21, 2014)

RightSeatCessna said:


> I had the folks from Kedel stop by to give me pricing, I was quite shocked to hear 22k for the 54k BTUs unit. With the rebate I'm looking at 17k which isn't terrible. This includes a water pump for hot water. I currently have a 1991 Utica running at 78% efficiency with a brands 50gal storage tank r hot water but only use 600 gallons a year of oil to heat and hot water. I am thinking I m better off with my current Englander and Utica running it into the ground. My other issue is that I don't have much storage (basement is finished) and the three ton storage option will take away 75% of my storage. For the moment I have decided to invest my money in my aviation career and moved the Kedel on the back burner for the moment.


 
Are they lining your chimney too at that price? Is your install exceedingly difficult? That does sound VERY steep! Heck, even with all the maximum options added from here: http://kedelboilers.com/meet-kedel/our-pellet-boiler/ for the 68k model with the big bag and I can not add up to $22k! Who is the installer?


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## heaterman (Mar 21, 2014)

RightSeatCessna said:


> I had the folks from Kedel stop by to give me pricing, I was quite shocked to hear 22k for the 54k BTUs unit. With the rebate I'm looking at 17k which isn't terrible. This includes a water pump for hot water. I currently have a 1991 Utica running at 78% efficiency with a brands 50gal storage tank r hot water but only use 600 gallons a year of oil to heat and hot water. I am thinking I m better off with my current Englander and Utica running it into the ground. My other issue is that I don't have much storage (basement is finished) and the three ton storage option will take away 75% of my storage. For the moment I have decided to invest my money in my aviation career and moved the Kedel on the back burner for the moment.



I would have to agree with your decision. Right choice.  At 22K you are up in rarefied air as far as payback is concerned with existing heating costs in the $2,000 range like yours are.


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## sinnian (Mar 22, 2014)

DZL_Damon said:


> Are they lining your chimney too at that price? Is your install exceedingly difficult? That does sound VERY steep! Heck, even with all the maximum options added from here: http://kedelboilers.com/meet-kedel/our-pellet-boiler/ for the 68k model with the big bag and I can not add up to $22k! Who is the installer?



That 22K price tag is exactly why I had called you out when you said you got yours for less that a Harman.  YOU got lucky!  I have heard of similar quotes.

AND the unit only costs Re-Vision about 4K.


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## DZL_Damon (Mar 22, 2014)

sinnian said:


> That 22K price tag is exactly why I had called you out when you said you got yours for less that a Harman.  YOU got lucky!  I have heard of similar quotes.
> 
> AND the unit only costs Re-Vision about 4K.


Wow....22k for the Kedel just makes me think gouging every time I think about it. For that much I would keep burning wood without a second thought! I'm wondering if some install companies are boosting prices because they know the rebate is available. Instead of drumming up extra work they are drumming up extra cash? I know when I bought my VW TDi a few dealerships had prices higher than MSRP... they said I would get the money back later with my tax return ($1300 tax credit). They were hoping I didn't know how to look at more honest dealerships since all the cars got the tax credit.

The biggest shocker is I recently did a proposal for work to convert a building we have to pellet heat. Kedel was the least expensive by a LOT. Windhager was next followed by MeSYS and Froling in a tie at more than double the Kedel's quote.


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## Tim04757 (Mar 23, 2014)

$22K  I must be missing something.  I had a Kedel installed last fall   I redid ALL the piping from the basement ceiling down, new circulators,  new manifold, new wiring, hot water and connected my oil furnace to the system as well.  The unit was the 102k with 700lb hopper and I wasn't even close to $22k.  Even if I had contracted all the plumbing and prep I did myself I would have had to pay over $300 per hour to reach $22k and that is at a novice's pace. I know of several Kedel installs and ALL have been at the figures on the Kedel site or less.  Is this a difficult install? Additional equipment?  Silo?  Have to air drop the equipment in?  Could it be that that at least 50% of this $22k may be related to site specific issues?   If you were quoted $22k for a typical install with no extras that certainly is unrealistic. However,  someone could say they were quoted $22k for a standard refrigerator.  Sounds unrealistic until they reveal that the quote includes remodeling the kitchen.


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## buggyspapa (Mar 24, 2014)

Right Seat, can you describe what the scope of the work was on your quote? I've been to the dealer (just for comparison) to have my brakes done and heard $800+, while the guy down the street said $400. Dealer quote had lots of extras, while Bob didn't include much more than the basic parts and work. If I ever get to replace my old heating system, I know they're going to have to go crazy. Leaks, bad design, works like a three legged horse pulling a plow. In other words, it's more than just the boiler that needs to go. Wiring? Done by a blind, drunk, crazy house painter.

Oh, yeah. Thank heaven for the woodstove.


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## RightSeatCessna (Mar 25, 2014)

The original quote included installation of the boiler, 3 ton hopper, draft inducer, domestic hot water (indirect or heat pump), radiator in bed room downstairs, and all new zones, which is not needed since I already have my zones set up. It's not (in my opinion) a difficult install, although it will make for tight quarters if I have any space left for storage. 

Install Kedel & 3 ton hopper $15,600. (originally quote $17,200 with new zone valves)
Heat Pump $4,000 or Indirect Hot Water Tank $3,600 (80 gallons)
Another $700 if I want a radiator installed in bed room down stairs

I burn roughly 600 gallons of oil @3.50/gal = $2,100 Heat & Hot Water
3.5 tons of pellets x $209 = $731.50 Heat only
New annual consumption in pellet 7.4 tons x $260 = $1924 (no idea what electricity is on the heat pump).


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## maple1 (Mar 25, 2014)

It included all new zones? Well there ya go - that could be rather costly.


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## heaterman (Mar 25, 2014)

Complicating factors with installation can often run up the costs pretty quickly.
We just quoted one a little over $17K that is going to tie into a furnace/duct system.
The install features addition of a rather complicated chimney install plus removing the downflow furnace from it's base and raising it to accept a hot water coil underneath it. There is also a 80 gallon buffer tank in the mix.


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## RightSeatCessna (Mar 25, 2014)

maple1 said:


> It included all new zones? Well there ya go - that could be rather costly.



$17,200 with new zones, $15,600 using the existing.


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## chken (Mar 25, 2014)

RightSeatCessna said:


> I burn roughly 600 gallons of oil @3.50/gal = $2,100 Heat & Hot Water
> 3.5 tons of pellets x $209 = $731.50 Heat only
> New annual consumption in pellet 7.4 tons x $260 = $1924 (no idea what electricity is on the heat pump).


So, you're saving $900 annually, putting your break-even at 20+ years?


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## RightSeatCessna (Mar 25, 2014)

With a tax credit of $5,000 I would be looking at about $14-$15k and roughly 15 year break even point as I see it...


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## chken (Mar 25, 2014)

RightSeatCessna said:


> With a tax credit of $5,000 I would be looking at about $14-$15k and roughly 15 year break even point as I see it...


Correctamundo. I always seem to forget something and if the spread between oil and pellets increase, then the payback will be quicker.


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## Tim04757 (Mar 25, 2014)

RightSeatCessna said:


> The original quote included installation of the boiler, 3 ton hopper, draft inducer, domestic hot water (indirect or heat pump), radiator in bed room downstairs, and all new zones, which is not needed since I already have my zones set up. It's not (in my opinion) a difficult install, although it will make for tight quarters if I have any space left for storage.
> 
> Install Kedel & 3 ton hopper $15,600. (originally quote $17,200 with new zone valves)
> Heat Pump $4,000 or Indirect Hot Water Tank $3,600 (80 gallons)
> ...




Which 3 ton hopper did you have quoted?  Metal, bag, poly...?


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## RightSeatCessna (Mar 25, 2014)

Cloth


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## buggyspapa (Mar 25, 2014)

Any idea why they would quote to replace the zone piping? How old is the existing system? Does it heat well?


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## DZL_Damon (Mar 25, 2014)

RightSeatCessna said:


> I was quite shocked to hear 22k for the 54k BTUs unit.


 


RightSeatCessna said:


> Install Kedel (68kBTU) & 3 ton hopper $15,600.


 
The devil is in the details it would appear! Replumbing the heating system completely is a lot different than simply adding a pellet boiler. You could have also save almost $1000 from that price with their standard bag vs. the cloth I believe.

I'm glad this is not a case of a company gouging prices to take advantage of the rebates available... it seems more the title of the article sucked me in!


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## velvetfoot (Mar 25, 2014)

A new flue can also be expensive.


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## sinnian (Mar 25, 2014)

DZL_Damon said:


> I'm glad this is not a case of a company gouging prices to take advantage of the rebates available... it seems more the title of the article sucked me in!



But they did increase their prices as soon as the rebate went into effect!


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## DZL_Damon (Mar 25, 2014)

sinnian said:


> But they did increase their prices as soon as the rebate went into effect!


It was slightly before, and I asked why since I noticed too...

They increased their warranty for the heat exhchanger/pressure vessel from 7 years to 30 years.


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## buggyspapa (Mar 25, 2014)

Sinnian, may I ask, how do you know the price a company pays for a boiler? I'm just curious. If we knew what brake rotors cost NAPA at the barest minimum, we'd all probably walk right out of the store. But every rotor has many hands on it from factory lathe to local counter that contribute/cost something. You seem to have an axe to grind.


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## buggyspapa (Mar 25, 2014)

DZL_Damon said:


> The devil is in the details it would appear! Replumbing the heating system completely is a lot different than simply adding a pellet boiler. You could have also save almost $1000 from that price with their standard bag vs. the cloth I believe.
> 
> I'm glad this is not a case of a company gouging prices to take advantage of the rebates available... it seems more the title of the article sucked me in!



Me too, Diesel. I've been doing a bit of research on pellet heat, and it seems like this is meant to polarize folks against one place/company for reasons I don't quite follow.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Mar 26, 2014)

For those of you in New England, there is the upcoming "Heating the Northeast conference" in Portland Maine on April 10/11-2014.

During this event there is also a Green Heating Fair on Thursday evening and Friday morning. Many pellet boiler manufacturers are exhibiting there.
It's  FREE and open to the public. Featuring geothermal, solar, cord wood, and alternative heating solutions.
Check out the latest in heating products and services, and learn how you can save big on your home heating bill next winter. In addition to dozens of vendors, the event will feature instructional sessions on heating your home, celebrity appearances, and free take-aways to help you get started heating locally!

Program: http://nebiomassheat.com/program.php

Exhibitors: http://nebiomassheat.com/exhibitor.php#list

I would say go visit this Heating Fair if you are looking for a pellet boiler.
You can feel, touch, shake and smell many of the appliances discussed in this topic, and convince yourself.


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## sinnian (Mar 26, 2014)

buggyspapa said:


> Sinnian, may I ask, how do you know the price a company pays for a boiler? I'm just curious. If we knew what brake rotors cost NAPA at the barest minimum, we'd all probably walk right out of the store. But every rotor has many hands on it from factory lathe to local counter that contribute/cost something. You seem to have an axe to grind.



I know someone in the industry who was previously in negotiations with "Kedel" to be the distributor.


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## sinnian (Mar 26, 2014)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> For those of you in New England, there is the upcoming "Heating the Northeast conference" in Portland Maine on April 10/11-2014.
> 
> During this event there is also a Green Heating Fair on Thursday evening and Friday morning. Many pellet boiler manufacturers are exhibiting there.
> It's  FREE and open to the public. Featuring geothermal, solar, cord wood, and alternative heating solutions.
> ...



Marc it doesn't say WHERE in Portland the Expo is taking place. ??? (Or did I miss it?)


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## foamit up (Mar 26, 2014)

It is at the Cumberland County Civic Center that was just remodeled in Portland. Foamit UP


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## RightSeatCessna (Mar 26, 2014)

buggyspapa said:


> Any idea why they would quote to replace the zone piping? How old is the existing system? Does it heat well?


Current system heats well, although I am assuming the system was installed and plumbed in 91 which is the date the Utica boiler was manufactured. Existing plumbing will be used. As for the hopper storage, it is their 3 ton ABS hopper storage (which I assumed was cloth).


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## DZL_Damon (Apr 21, 2014)

PatWalsh said:


> Do you know of any examples? Or other installation issues with Kedel?


 

Read through the whole thread and see where that $22k price tag is not just for a pellet boiler installation, it's for an entire heating system install with a (I agree) overpriced Indirect hot water heater install as well. Misleading quote like this is detrimental for the entire biomass industry... folks skim through the pages and see a quick post like that and think "$22k for a pellet boiler?? I'll stay with oil"


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## moey (Apr 21, 2014)

Holy sh**t... I really hope for 22k people look long and hard at geothermal systems. They can be less depending on your house and your not a slave to it. Its also hard to A/C your house with a pellet boiler.


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## DZL_Damon (Apr 21, 2014)

PatWalsh said:


> Can you document this? Did you have a price list before the rebate and one after? I am just curious because I felt they were doing the same thing.


It went up $200 on their website Pat... this us because they upped the boilers warranty from 7 years to 30 years ( I asked why). The rest appears to be rumor and speculation or misleading quotes that don't include all the details


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## DBNH22 (Apr 22, 2014)

sinnian said:


> But they did increase their prices as soon as the rebate went into effect!


 
Who's they?  Interphase?  Revision?  The contractors doing installs on their boilers?  It  appears you're referring to the Kedel reseller.

When I first started looking into buying a pellet boiler it seemed as if most of the dealers did not have a very in depth understanding of the rebates being offered in Maine, NH and MA.  Some of them mentioned the rebates but did not mention the fact that there was a bulk storage requirement.  I don't think they intentionally omitted that info, rather they were honestly unaware of it themselves.  

Jacking up the price because a rebate went into affect assumes that everyone buying a pellet boiler is going to opt for the bulk storage solution so that they can get the rebate.  I did not and have no plans to.  My Biowin has proven to save money this year and I'm looking at a payback of seven years.  The added costs of a bulk storage solution compared to the rebate amount may have put me about $1000 in the black when it was all said and done but then that $1000 will probably be made up over time in the lower costs that I will be paying for bagged pellets vs. bulk delivery.  

It really pissed me off that there was a bulk storage requirement to the rebate.  A big friggin dog and pony show about helping people "go green."  Peel back the layers on that onion and it was nothing but one hand washing the other.  Business as usual.  Nothing wrong with that I guess other than the fact that it didn't help me one damn bit.


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## Chris Hoskin (Apr 23, 2014)

Dana B, so you live in southern NH, you CHOSE not to install a 3+ ton bulk bin and so CHOSE not to receive a 30% rebate and the problem is with the rebate program?!  I must be missing something....


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

Chris Hoskin said:


> Dana B, so you live in southern NH, you CHOSE not to install a 3+ ton bulk bin and so CHOSE not to receive a 30% rebate and the problem is with the rebate program?!  I must be missing something....




The rebate was billed as an incentive for people to go green and use biomass.  If that's the case why make a bulk storage feature one of the requirements when some of the pellet boiler manufacturers that are selling product in this area do not have a bulk storage solution available?  Why didn't the rebate just come right out and say the rebate is for this one brand of boiler?  Granted others have come up with bulk storage solutions on their own with the brands of boilers that did not already have them but what about those who chose not to go with the bulk storage for various reasons?  Are they still not going green by switching from oil to pellets?  I know a several people that were interested and would have been able to afford pellet boilers without bulk storage if they were eligible for the rebate.  But the bulk storage requirement and the actual additional costs of bulk storage made it unaffordable.  So not only do they lose out but the businesses selling some of these pellet boilers do as well.


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## maple1 (Apr 23, 2014)

Chris Hoskin said:


> Dana B, so you live in southern NH, you CHOSE not to install a 3+ ton bulk bin and so CHOSE not to receive a 30% rebate and the problem is with the rebate program?!  I must be missing something....


 
I can see both sides of this one.

Why does a bulk bin need to be a requirement - it might not be practical for a lot of people, and there might not be practical bulk delivery available for a lot of people. Plus bagged is cheaper from what I've read. But a bulk bin may be necessary to maintain constant 'automatic' operation if one of the thrusts of the program is to displace oil burners and accompanying an oil tank.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

maple1 said:


> I can see both sides of this one.
> 
> Why does a bulk bin need to be a requirement - it might not be practical for a lot of people, and there might not be practical bulk delivery available for a lot of people. Plus bagged is cheaper from what I've read. But a bulk bin may be necessary to maintain constant 'automatic' operation if one of the thrusts of the program is to displace oil burners and accompanying an oil tank.




I'm glad someone else sees it from both sides.  To your point about constant automatic operation:  even the 500 gallon  oil tank or 3+ ton pellet hopper will need to be refilled eventually.  My Biowin holds 320 pounds of pellets and will operate constantly and automatically until those 320 pounds are depleted.   granted that won't be as long as 3 ton plus hopper but it's the same concept.  we're just talking about size and it seems arbitrary to me.


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## sinnian (Apr 23, 2014)

If you think these programs have anything to do with being "green" you have the wrong idea of green.  These rebates are entirely the result of lobbying so certain companies can reap the rewards at the tax payer's expense.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 23, 2014)

sinnian said:


> If you think these programs have anything to do with being "green" you have the wrong idea of green.  These rebates are entirely the result of lobbying so certain companies can reap the rewards at the tax payer's expense.




That's what I was getting at sinnian.  This rebate was designed to help the boiler companies that already had a bulk storage solution in place sell more boilers and the pellet companies offering bulk delivery at the time sell more pellets.


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## bigbobs (Apr 23, 2014)

In NH from what I heard the rebate program was used to jumpstart the bulk delivery infrastructure. Trucks and bulk storage at the suppliers side are expensive. Without customers, who would want to drop $300K + to set up bulk delivery. A truck, new would be at least $200k, plus if the supplier was not close enough to a pellet manufacture they would need a form of bulk storage so the pellets could be transported by an 18 wheeler truck and off loaded and stored with a means to refill into the smaller truck for local delivery. Chicken and egg situation.


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## heaterman (Apr 24, 2014)

sinnian said:


> If you think these programs have anything to do with being "green" you have the wrong idea of green.  These rebates are entirely the result of lobbying so certain companies can reap the rewards at the tax payer's expense.




^^^^^^^^^^^
We have a winner.



The company that really worked on this is trying to force business their way and defray their cost of delivery equipment. Which is substantial to say the least.
  Not an entirely bad thing but not completely transparent either.

We have no such program in Michigan (one of the most backward states in the US when it comes to energy as far as I can see. Anything that happens is driven by the big utilities)

The owner of a large regional pellet manufacturer and I were discussing the subject of bulk delivery just a couple days ago. It is a huge investment on their part and it makes it very difficult to take the plunge when there are few users set up for bulk delivery. Conversely, pellet users are not going to invest in a bulk bin if they have to fill it manually.  So which is the chicken and which is the egg?

That being the case I cannot say that an emerging market which needs a kick start should not seek a little public funding to get going. The crux of that issue is that the playing field should be level for all entrants into the particular field of business.
Then and only then will free market forces truly regulate the product price.


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## sinnian (Apr 24, 2014)

It is a double edged sword.  I guess I would be less against it, if we were not already giving big oil 22 million/day in subsidies...............


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## BoilerMan (Apr 24, 2014)

I've has this type of conversation a few times myself.  There are a couple of multiple large-building land lords which I've worked for.  Some burn wood, some coal, some oil, some LP, or any combination of the four.  One has a pellet boiler, and he asked me if I know of anyone who would be interested in buying it......... it's a cheap Amazing-Heat 'nough said.

I told him, and other big land lords, if I were in their shoes and had the capital, I'd be buying some high-quality pellet boilers for those buildings.  I'd invest in a "potato bulk truck" farmers all over have them.  Bulk body with a conveyer belt to unload crop out the back.  There is a pellet mill 20 miles out of town, and I'd have my own bulk delivery system and serve the rest of my fellow "lords" the same.  Some number crunching and I think it's a win-win.

TS


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## DZL_Damon (Apr 24, 2014)

FYI to other readers, at least the Maine incentive does not require automatic delivery. You can either do bulk, OR leave your remaining oil/propane set up in place with at least a 500lbs hopper for the pellet boiler AND the old oil/propane system must be set up to take over if the pellet boiler fails/runs out of pellets.  I chose the latter option to get my rebate and I was thankful since I didn't want a massive silo in my garage. However, Maine only states the bulk option holds enough fuel for 2 weeks of uninturupted operation while maintaining all areas of the house at 50*F. I assume they mean on a design day? Heck, wouldn't even need a ton for that.


As far as landlords go, automated pellet boilers is the way to go if heat is included in the rent. If I had my own wood I'd have a gassifyer in a heart beat so my soul purpose on this forum is not all about pellets. However, a house/apt that you are not at everyday benefits greatly from automated pellet boilers. Working on setting that up with my grandmothers apartments right now.


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## lokewolf (May 6, 2015)

So I'm looking at new construction in Brookline, NH...southern NH, and my builder is looking to put in Propane Hot air furnace and A/C w/duct work (pretty Standard stuff).  House will be 3400sq/ft, 3 zones...1 for finished side of basement.  Hot water is going to be tankless/propane setup at this point.  Thing is I really want to get away from propane or limit use of it !!   
I'm currently using about 1100 gal ($2.40/gal) of propane a year in a smaller house about 2300 sq/ft w/ tankless Rheem water heater.  What might my savings be by installing a Kedel 102 w/3ton hopper over Propane forced hot air?   
Geothermal is interesting in that it both heats and cools, but costs to install and repair/maintain can be rediculous from what I've heard.  
Would hybrid heat pump/ac work?
Would sticking with builder setup and buying a freestanding wool pellet stove to supplement heat and cut consumption of propane be just as good?

EF


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## moey (May 6, 2015)

lokewolf said:


> So I'm looking at new construction in Brookline, NH...southern NH, and my builder is looking to put in Propane Hot air furnace and A/C w/duct work (pretty Standard stuff).  House will be 3400sq/ft, 3 zones...1 for finished side of basement.  Hot water is going to be tankless/propane setup at this point.  Thing is I really want to get away from propane or limit use of it !!
> I'm currently using about 1100 gal ($2.40/gal) of propane a year in a smaller house about 2300 sq/ft w/ tankless Rheem water heater.  What might my savings be by installing a Kedel 102 w/3ton hopper over Propane forced hot air?
> Geothermal is interesting in that it both heats and cools, but costs to install and repair/maintain can be rediculous from what I've heard.
> Would hybrid heat pump/ac work?
> ...



Don't go by what you heard.... 

Id suggest getting a quote for geothermal we paid about 22k for ours with ductwork. Take out the ductwork it was about 14k. A new furnace and A/C probably is 10k or slightly more I would guess. Not that big of price difference specially on a new house. You would be more comfortable and actually not cringe when it came time to run the heat. We have had our system 3 years I clean the filter once a month with my vacuum that is the only maintenance. Its got 10 years parts and labor warranty as well.


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## lokewolf (May 6, 2015)

moey said:


> Don't go by what you heard....
> 
> Id suggest getting a quote for geothermal we paid about 22k for ours with ductwork. Take out the ductwork it was about 14k. A new furnace and A/C probably is 10k or slightly more I would guess. Not that big of price difference specially on a new house. You would be more comfortable and actually not cringe when it came time to run the heat. We have had our system 3 years I clean the filter once a month with my vacuum that is the only maintenance. Its got 10 years parts and labor warranty as well.



Did you use the same well (how deep) or did you need a second well drilled?


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## moey (May 6, 2015)

lokewolf said:


> Did you use the same well (how deep) or did you need a second well drilled?



We have a ground loop 3000 ft of piping at 5ft buried its a closed system no well. Took a day and half for them to put the loop in and have the pipes coming in the house. The footprint for it is about 25 ft * 150 ft. It could go smaller if the lot is smaller they can get pretty creative.


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## lokewolf (May 6, 2015)

Were you oil, gas or electric user previously and how much would you estimate you're saving each year now?


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## heaterman (May 6, 2015)

Don't forget the 30% tax credit on Geo expires this year. 
Think long term if you're building new. What do you want to be involved with in 10 years, 20 years or more.
Think about replacement costs.
Think about what  "user interaction" with a system is going to entail.  Nothing? 15 minutes a day? Is it capable of running unattended for 1 day, 3 days, a month? Or does it require no attention from you at all?


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## moey (May 6, 2015)

lokewolf said:


> Were you oil, gas or electric user previously and how much would you estimate you're saving each year now?



We previously burned 1200 gallons heating oil about 3000 sq/ft so so insulation. The geo system used about $1000 worth of electricity this year at .14 kw/hr. That number would include heat and all the hot water between Oct and March. A/C costs were insignificant probably less then $20 a month in the August.  

I dont really plug numbers on what Im saving the heating system it replaced didnt work well and I wanted A/C I got both in one unit. And Im not pissy and cold anymore. Tried pellets for a couple years burned 4-5 tons per year and parts of the house were always cold.


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## moey (May 18, 2015)

heaterman said:


> Don't forget the 30% tax credit on Geo expires this year.



It expires the end of 2016. They moved it to another tax code which caused some confusion as to when it ended.  Its been renewed several times although at some point Im sure it will go away.


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