# EPA should ban unseasoned wood burning



## sebring (Jan 12, 2012)

I dont believe they should, but since they were so concerned with having stoves with better combustion they would ban unseasoned wood burning. Having people burn seasoned wood would be just as good as the stoves they helped bring to market. Just thinking.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 12, 2012)

Probably not the worst thing people have burned in their stoves.


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## tschwendler (Jan 12, 2012)

Don't give them any ideas!  They're out of control as it is!


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## corey21 (Jan 12, 2012)

Sometimes that is all people have.


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## firebroad (Jan 12, 2012)

Might be better to make sure wood sellers don't sell wet wood.  Especially when they advertise it as "seasoned".


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## Jim Buckhorn (Jan 12, 2012)

No. No EPA.  Use reason and educate. We are Americans.


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## joecool85 (Jan 12, 2012)

firebroad said:
			
		

> Might be better to make sure wood sellers don't sell wet wood.  Especially when they advertise it as "seasoned".



That's true.  There should be a legal limit for moisture content and calling it "seasoned".


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## oldspark (Jan 12, 2012)

I cant wait until you can only burn "EPA approved fuel" in your EPA stove.


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## MishMouse (Jan 12, 2012)

Or a better suggestion would be to design a stove that burns > 90% efficiency with less then seasoned wood.

Saying a ban on unseasoned wood would give the EPA the authority to come into your home and fine you if the moisture meter does not read what they want it to read.


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## kenny chaos (Jan 12, 2012)

sebring said:
			
		

> ban unseasoned wood   Just thinking.




Classic!


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## JustWood (Jan 12, 2012)

joecool85 said:
			
		

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Ja, forget about personal responsibility on the homeowner/woodburners part.
I witnessed first hand how the government (USDA) handled the EAB and it was/is a joke.
If I had to season all the wood I sell for 2+ years I'd charge $600 cord. It wood take 3 times the handling I do now and 20 acres of ground.
What's next ,,,,,, regulated  well done sushi !!


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 12, 2012)

How many BTUs in a[well seasoned] Bureaucrat?


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 12, 2012)

inevitabLEE said:
			
		

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Right on Lee.


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## oldspark (Jan 12, 2012)

MishMouse said:
			
		

> Or a better suggestion would be to design a stove that burns > 90% efficiency with less then seasoned wood.
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 A water burner?


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## BrotherBart (Jan 13, 2012)

inevitabLEE said:
			
		

> ..regulated  well done sushi !!



Have it on Hilton property and it is by their rules. Yep. They cook the Sushi.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 13, 2012)

inevitabLEE said:
			
		

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As long as you dont try to claim it is already seasoned,no harm done.


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## LLigetfa (Jan 13, 2012)

MishMouse said:
			
		

> Or a better suggestion would be to design a stove that burns > 90% efficiency with less then seasoned wood..


No stove burns > 90% efficiency with even dry wood.  Take out the "burns > 90% efficiency" requirement and you have an OWB.  Those OWB guys claim they are designed to burn green wood.  Heck they even have one called Greenwood.

The EPA stoves won't burn green wood anyway so this whole thread topic is moot.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 13, 2012)

MishMouse said:
			
		

> Or a better suggestion would be to design a stove that burns > 90% efficiency with less then seasoned wood.
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> Saying a ban on unseasoned wood would give the EPA the authority to come into your home and fine you if the moisture meter does not read what they want it to read.


Then you probably wouldn't like the German solution either. Last I heard they test your boiler/stove for emissions with a drop down probe in the chimney. If it doesn't pass you are given a chance to correct it. When they come back if it doesn't pass the heating appliance goes with them. Randy


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## BrotherBart (Jan 13, 2012)

By the definition provided by the Department of Energy a seller could actually sell what we call wet wood as "seasoned".

"Seasoned Wood
    Wood, used for fuel, that has been air dried so that it contains 15 to 20 percent moisture content (wet basis)."

Since wet basis wood of 15 to 20 percent would represent a dry basis of 18 - 33% then anything he sells you under 33% dry basis is by definition "seasoned wood". Since wood moisture meters are calibrated on dry basis what you think is 20 percent wood would be legal for a seller to call 33% wood.

Have fun.


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## jharkin (Jan 13, 2012)

Banning unseasoned wood... that's about as enforceable as the speed limit. good luck.

And I have to disagree it would solve the smoke issue. An airtight (pre-epa) stove with the air choked off is going to smoulder and smoke no matter how dry the wood. There may be less smoke but it will still be smoke.


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## CTYank (Jan 13, 2012)

MishMouse said:
			
		

> Or a better suggestion would be to design a stove that burns > 90% efficiency with less then seasoned wood.
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> Saying a ban on unseasoned wood would give the EPA the authority to come into your home and fine you if the moisture meter does not read what they want it to read.



Wee bit paranoid?

Want EPA into designing stoves now? Or just pushing the impractical?

Define "seasoned" precisely, please.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 13, 2012)

CTYank said:
			
		

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â€œSeasoned Wood
  Wood, used for fuel, that has been air dried so that it contains 15 to 20 percent moisture content (wet basis).â€


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## oldspark (Jan 13, 2012)

3 times a charm BB.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 13, 2012)

oldspark said:
			
		

> 3 times a charm BB.



 :lol:


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Jan 13, 2012)

Jim Buckhorn said:
			
		

> No. No EPA.  Use reason and educate. We are Americans.


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## firebroad (Jan 13, 2012)

inevitabLEE said:
			
		

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No prob if they just advertise "1 year old", or "harvested early spring" or some such.  There are too many dealers advertising "seasoned, ready to burn!"  I know better now, but it irks me to see the ads.


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## oldspark (Jan 13, 2012)

firebroad said:
			
		

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 A one year old log is a one year old log not firewood, they will tell you what you want to hear and then they dont respect you in the morning.


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## RNLA (Jan 14, 2012)

Screw em all. You can not tell anyone anything. I'm at the store a half hour ago and the guy in line in front of me says " I wish they would lift the burn ban". I promptly told him it expired at midnight. He said it was on his screen this morning. I told him if people burned truly seasoned wood we would not be dealing with a stinking burn ban. He looked puzzled and walked out. The guy behind the counter said "I have a fire place and all I burn is wood" I told him he needed an EPA certified wood stove or insert and he looked at me as if I was an alien with 3 heads.


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## begreen (Jan 14, 2012)

Not sure what is worse, burning unseasoned wood or boneheaded, seasoned wood burners that think they know how to burn wood. The combo of the two is deadly.


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## RNLA (Jan 14, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Not sure what is worse, burning unseasoned wood or boneheaded, seasoned wood burners that think they know how to burn wood. The combo of the two is deadly.


 You gettin in my stuff BG? :-/


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## cwill (Jan 14, 2012)

Education is key.  Better define what "seasoned" wood is and some sort of educational/ad campaign on how to properly dry/burn wood is all that is really needed.  Some will still burn green wood but if the majority understand that there is a better, more efficient way to burn wood than alot of issues will take care of themselves. Just think, most of us here will not buy wood beacuse its usually wet but plenty of people that don't know any better do. If more knew to check the moisture of the wood before they buy and not accept wet wood. The sellers would have no choice but to sell properly dried wood.

Cant we just get Dennis to do an PSA on the importance of dry wood? LOL!!  The areas that have a burn ban could have a ad that plays on tv/radio explaining why there is a burn ban and how to fix the situation.


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## begreen (Jan 14, 2012)

RNLA said:
			
		

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Nah, just came back from a trip up north in logging country where they know how to burn wood. I have never seen such a smoldering mess in my life.


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## RNLA (Jan 14, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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 LMAO,  :lol: BG you got to be sayin Sedro or some left over outpost. I know what your sayin though, some old timers really do believe that dry from the shed is seasoned. My neighbor for one doesn't burn anymore, he said because of the smoke and too hard to fill the shed every year in the summer time. I told him you need stay one year or more ahead he said thats crazy. I do think a public education campaign is what could help major around here. Have you seen the PSCA website? Very little educational material and an out of date video from Canada about how to process fire wood. I would love to see them offer better material but I also think some people you just can't teach.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 15, 2012)

Wisconsin had some sort of a DNR website that was advising people to burn dry wood & it went on to say that storage for boilers was a good idea as it allowed cleaner burning. Wisconsin is progressive environment wise, I was still quite surprised that the local government was this up to speed, Randy


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## RNLA (Jan 15, 2012)

I still contend that IF the government was to give people the information they needed to C/S/S firewood in order to season properly there would still be a percentage of dumb *** people who don't get it. These individuals will ruin it for those of us who take responsibility for "good wood burning".  :shut:


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## cwill (Jan 15, 2012)

RNLA said:
			
		

> I still contend that IF the government was to give people the information they needed to C/S/S firewood in order to season properly there would still be a percentage of dumb *** people who don't get it. These individuals will ruin it for those of us who take responsibility for "good wood burning".  :shut:



There is a percentage of dumb**** that do it the wrong way for anything. If a higher % were burning the right way it would make a bigger impact. If a campaign was started now in 15 years the % of people burning the right way would be alot higher. Look at epa vs non-epa stoves, in another 10-15 or so years most of the smoke dragons will be out of there useful life and will be retired/replaced. Same with people burning incorrectly, if new folks were given the proper info eventually the "old-school" burners will be replaced by the "new-school" way of burning. If the proper info never gets to the masses then the cycle will never change.


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## Battenkiller (Jan 15, 2012)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Since wood moisture meters are calibrated on dry basis what you think is 20 percent wood would be legal for a seller to call 33% wood.



You made me come out of pellet heaven just to give you a math lesson?  20% wet-basis = 25% dry-basis, not 33%.  Bigga difference. 

And now ol' BK tosses another bag of 5% MC wood fiber into the hopper. :cheese:


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## RNLA (Jan 15, 2012)

Ok BK, Now change that avitar to reflect your pellet stove. Not near as exciting as the open flame, box full, HOT fire. Maybe a good out put but not near the flame. :lol:


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## Battenkiller (Jan 15, 2012)

RNLA said:
			
		

> Ok BK, Now change that avitar to reflect your pellet stove. Not near as exciting as the open flame, box full, HOT fire. Maybe a good out put but not near the flame. :lol:



Oh no, I ain't putting up a pic of this anemic looking burn.  Sure keeps this place toasty, but I can't wait to move it down into the shop where it belongs and put a real stove up here.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 15, 2012)

I burn mostly wood that has been harvested anywhere from 60 to 100 years ago and has been drying out inside walls and under floors in peoples houses for that amount of time,and it still smokes in the initial burn stages although im sure its very dry.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 15, 2012)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

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Not according to the online calculator I used. It is on the Internet. It must be right.


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## btuser (Jan 15, 2012)

Once the pellet cartel need the biomass bad enough we will see a push to get rid of wood stoves. My guess it won't be the poisonous wood smoke that will somehow be linked to a neighbor's alzheimers, but the invasive species argument. Pretty soon you'll need to be licensed to sell your firewood, and you won't be able to truck it otherwise you could spread the bugs. Unless of course, you sell it wholesale to a pellet mill.


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## RNLA (Jan 15, 2012)

As a tree co. I have loads and loads of wood chips that are currently totaly useless. I wish the biomass industry would get going in WA. I've been told in other areas they pay for a truck load of chips. I currently truck them to a pig farm...


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## begreen (Jan 15, 2012)

Seattle Steam is now burning wood chips. I wonder who they buy from and whether there is a collection point for them?

PS: That smokey run wasn't Sedro Wooley, but close. It was on the highway between Darrington and Rockport. I saw a fair share of them in Concrete too.


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## firecracker_77 (Jan 15, 2012)

TomS said:
			
		

> Don't give them any ideas!  They're out of control as it is!



No more gov't or laws.  We have enough control over our lives.  Let the local municipality regulate that if they desire.


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## imacman (Jan 16, 2012)

Jim Buckhorn said:
			
		

> No. No EPA.  Use reason and educate. We are Americans.



Ditto....too much "control" from Washington as it is.


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## bjkjoseph (Jan 16, 2012)

if they got there wish..the people who want no government would be the first to be eaten...grow up kids.


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## RNLA (Jan 16, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Seattle Steam is now burning wood chips. I wonder who they buy from and whether there is a collection point for them?
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> PS: That smokey run wasn't Sedro Wooley, but close. It was on the highway between Darrington and Rockport. I saw a fair share of them in Concrete too.


  :lol: OH BG, You are making me laugh, if I had coffee it would be all over my key board. On a more serious note; it would be awsome to have a place to use chips for something good. I am a small company and I make lots of chips, I can't imagine what the big boys do. So about this thread, could we come up with serious information to help educate wood burners? To really change the attitudes and habbits of the PNW wood burner?


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## begreen (Jan 16, 2012)

Now who's being funny? I try to do it here, but 27000+ posts and it still hasn't worked for some diehards. Old habits are hard to break. 

Back to the woodchips, is there a county or local compost facility that could ingest the chips? There was one locally, but he got shut down due to lack of proper drainage or something like that.


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## fossil (Jan 16, 2012)

RNLA said:
			
		

> ...So about this thread, could we come up with serious information to help educate wood burners? To really change the attitudes and habbits of the PNW wood burner?



Just what percentage of PNW woodburners do you figure are following this thread?  So far, it's you, BeGreen and me, as far as I can tell.  :smirk:


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## begreen (Jan 16, 2012)

I actually have put some thought into this because it is a local problem as well. Going door to door could be hazardous to one's health, but I have thought about writing a series of articles. The question is whether some of these folks read a paper. Seriously.


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## kenny chaos (Jan 16, 2012)

For over a hundred years it's been the same thing; immigration reform, balance the budget, education reform, job creation, and something concerning the
future of our weather patterns.  Maybe the GOP could add "educating wood burners" this election cycle.   :blank:


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## BrotherBart (Jan 16, 2012)

First offense you have to spend twenty hours reading hearth.com posts. Second offense you are sentenced to reading all of me and Backwood Savage's posts.


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 16, 2012)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> First offense you have to spend twenty hours reading hearth.com posts. Second offense you are sentenced to reading all of me and Backwood Savage's posts.



third (and i'd bet last) offense is to have to translate all POOK's posts


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## firefighterjake (Jan 16, 2012)

stoveguy2esw said:
			
		

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I'm pretty sure that would be against the Geneva Convention or would at the very least be ruled cruel and unusual punishment.


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## RNLA (Jan 17, 2012)

Not sure it should be a government thing? I mostly went there because the OP brought up the EPA. I'm lead to believe that with the proper organization and distribution the information could be given and change some people's thoughts on what exactly they could use for fuel in wood stoves. The other thing BG and I have here is the Puget Sound Clean air agency. This is the agency that enforces the burn ban when there is stagnant air. We have different levels of burn ban and it is my belief that they would like to see wood burning go to the wayside as a source of heat. We have so many trees and so much wood here that if handled correctly it is a very good alternate or primary source of heat. The big problem is people do not know or do not want to go to the trouble of C/S/S firewood properly to achieve truly seasoned wood. Our local agency is running a program to subsidise the purchase of new heating appliances that use fuels other than wood if the person gets rid of their non-certified wood burning stove. I could see offering a subsidy program for replacing non EPA stoves with EPA approved units, but they are going the other way. I think this is due to the political and cultural view point of the local population and government. I do not want to get into a pissin match about politics or who goes where but I don't understand the "protect you from yourself" and "do what we tell you to" way of governing.  :blank:


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## TMonter (Jan 17, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Seattle Steam is now burning wood chips. I wonder who they buy from and whether there is a collection point for them?
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> PS: That smokey run wasn't Sedro Wooley, but close. It was on the highway between Darrington and Rockport. I saw a fair share of them in Concrete too.



They buy from multiple suppliers actually and the sources of wood are varied.


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## firecracker_77 (Jan 17, 2012)

I agree.  Educate people on the right way to do it.  Gov't on a massive scale gets in the way.  Things operated pretty well for the first 125 years in the USA where the localities had more control and people were engaged.


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## begreen (Jan 17, 2012)

If we want change, I think the best place to start is at the community level. We can't afford a K street lobbyist.


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## RNLA (Jan 17, 2012)

No lobbyist needed. I bet if we did a small budget video, to replace the one on the PSCA website, I guess I don't like the fact they pulled something from some where else. The other thing would be to write an article as you suggested BG. The info could be up to date with example photos and clearly written instructions on "how to" do the stuff correctly. It may be a situation where there could be volunteers to go and show first hand what to do with all this firewood. BG if you want to take on this beast for the PNW I'll help you. The amount of work firewood takes is huge and some people just can't be bothered. At the very least we could convince some to purchase a year ahead of time; that goes into another thread about the swindling firewood dealers and what a true cord is.... :gulp:


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## tfdchief (Jan 17, 2012)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

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Missed you BK, glad you are keeping warm.  As for the topic of this thread.  All I can say is that I am glad I live in a free country where I have some say in the process.


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## btuser (Jan 17, 2012)

bjkjoseph said:
			
		

> if they got there wish..the people who want no government would be the first to be eaten...grow up kids.



Well then, perhaps they should be eaten, and therfore decrease the surplus population....

I heard horse meat gets better as the animal gets older. This could be relevant as the baby boomers approach retirement.


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## jharkin (Jan 17, 2012)

I used to be a hard core libertarian, and a true believer that the less govt the better and personal responsibility. I still believe in personal responsibility, however life experience has sadly proven that deregulation often backfires. 

 The great flaw in the theory is a mistaken understanding of human nature. See, as much as we want to think we are not, humans are still hardwired by instinct to make choices that promote short term personal survival even when such choices harm long term survival of the general population or even of themselves.  Read the theory of "the tragedy of the commons" to get a better idea of what this means.

The result of this is that for every one person out there who might do the right thing and burn clean, I fear there are 3 or 4 who will happily take the lazy way out and burn tires in their yard, dump used motor oil down the storm drain etc even though they know full well its not in anyone's best interest long term. Rules exist to protect us from ourselves and from anarchy.


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## tfdchief (Jan 17, 2012)

jharkin said:
			
		

> I used to be a hard core libertarian, and a true believer that the less govt the better and personal responsibility. I still believe in personal responsibility, however life experience has sadly proven that deregulation often backfires.
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> The great flaw in the theory is a mistaken understanding of human nature. *See, as much as we want to think we are not, humans are still hardwired by instinct to make choices that promote short term personal survival even when such choices harm long term survival of the general population or even of themselves*.  Read the theory of "the tragedy of the commons" to get a better idea of what this means.
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> The result of this is that for every one person out there who might do the right thing and burn clean, I fear there are 3 or 4 who will happily take the lazy way out and burn tires in their yard, dump used motor oil down the storm drain etc even though they know full well its not in anyone's best interest long term. *Rules exist to protect us from ourselves and from anarchy.*


 That is true, however, government, those making the rules, is made up of humans as well.


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## jharkin (Jan 17, 2012)

tfdchief said:
			
		

> That is true, however, government, those making the rules, is made up of humans as well.



No argument there. We are stuck in a catch-22 .....


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