# Progress Hybrid cat question / smoke smell



## 3fordasho (Feb 6, 2013)

Couple questions for other PH owners- How often are you cleaning your cat?  Last night I noticed more smoke smell (not from reloading) and noticed the flames were really dying after closing the bypass... a sure sign the cat is getting plugged with fly ash.  It's only been a month or less since I last cleaned it and it was plugged then from a short last season (installed stove last Feb) I do have the new screen set up and I clean that everytime I remove ash from the stove.  Also I rarely see stove top temps 400f or over- is that normal or are these signs the cat is not working correctly?  I don't see smoke from the chimney but the cat also likes the stall easily, I must maintain 400F flue temps or it will stall and I will see smoke.   The cat in the fireview has never plugged up this easily or quickly.  The wood is not an issue - split and dryed for at least 3 years, pulled from a covered wood shed.  The cat is the original shipped with the stove, but only about a year old now. 

Smoke smell  (not a reloading/door open issue)- I've replaced the door gasket several times, and it seems better everytime I do it but it does not last - either the gasket relaxes or it's coming from somewhere else and I just think it's better after replacing the gasket.   A partially plugged screen or cat makes it much worse so I will be checking those everytime I clean out the ash from the firebox.  Woodstock suggested keeping more flame in the box and not to shut the stove all the way down (no flame).  I've been following this recommendation and while it does help I've had several times the smell was present and there was plenty of flame in the box.  Looking for suggestions here, maybe need to plug some roll pins as mentioned in another thread?


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## Waulie (Feb 6, 2013)

I only clean my cat once during the season and once after the season.  What's weird is when I had the original screen, the screen would gunk up all the time.  The new screen doesn't seem to catch much flyash because I rarely have to brush it.  This hasn't led to a clogged cat either.  I just cleaned mine a week ago for the first time this year and it had a bit of buildup but not bad at all.

I just don't know about the smoke smell.  Some people seem to get it and some don't.  You could look into the roll pin issue.  Maybe that would help.

Your are running the original steel cat.  Some of those cats had some real problems with stalling and lighting at all.  They have since changed their manufacturing process on the cats.  I would monitor your cat's performance with temps, etc. for a while.  If it is not working properly, it is under warrantee.

As for your stove top temps:  Where are you measuring and what is your top setup (e.g. original stone top, original cooktop, cooktop with heat shield)?  People have reported much lower stone top temps with the shielded cooktop.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 6, 2013)

I have the first version of the cooktop installed, no heat shield.  I have a rear flue setup so the thermometer is on the blockoff plate for the top flue  (has the stove name cast into it)

The cat plugging so quickly is what has me questioning things, 6 years with fireviews and I've never experienced the issue with those, and they still have the original coarse (expanded metal) flame quard, not the newer style screens.  So it has me wondering if the cat is not getting up to temperature.


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## Waulie (Feb 6, 2013)

You have the same top as I do.  If you're running largish loads, you should definitely be seeing over 400 on the stone top.  I can't say for sure where you're measuring because I top vent, but I would sure think that area should be getting hotter.

If your screen is installed properly, I'm not sure why your cat would be plugging up so fast.  It could be because it's not burning properly so it's not cleaning itself.


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## sailor61 (Feb 6, 2013)

This might shed some light on your smoke smell problem;   https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/overfire.102759/page-2#post-1367155      He describes the location of a couple of bolts in his PH that seem to have been missed in the sealing process.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 6, 2013)

Lately I've been filling the stove with Oak and honeylocust but most of it is still only 16"(filling so I can't fit another split)  I do tend to run the stove draft in the "almost" closed position but always try to keep some flame in the box.


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## Machria (Feb 6, 2013)

I've had my PH now for 7 weeks.  After 4 weeks, I took the CAT out to check, and it looked exactly the same as the day I intalled the stove, which was suprising to me after the raging infermo's that go on in there, hard to believe anything in there looked the same.  Nothing on the screen either.

Anyway, Monday evening I had a cold stove for the 1st time in a whil, so I dumped the ashed and checked the CAT again just for the heck of it, and again there is nothng on, in or near it.  However, I did notice there is a slight bend in the top of the frame on it, I took a pic and am sending it to Woodstock to check if ok/normal.  But I have yet to see anything get on/in/around the cat or the screen at the top of the firebox.  I burn both fully closed for long slow burns sometimes, but mostly with the air slightly open.

As for stove top temps, are you SURE you don't have the heat shield under the cooktop?    Sure sounds like you do temp wise.  I NEVER see the top temp go above 300-350.  I've seen the top flue colar get to 400+, but never the stove top itself. 

One question for you, *what makes you think the "CAT has stalled"? *   How do you know?    I hear this here often, but wonder how you would actually know such a thing, you can't see it.  The only thing you can do is monitor the flue gas temps, and if they suddenly drop by 50 or 100 degree's, that ussually indicates the cat is working.  But other than that, you really don't know if it is or not. 

Lastly, wood smell.   If I put my head and nose directly over the stove, as close to the pipe as I can get without getting burned... I can smell a slight wood burning smell.  I don't smell it in the rest of the room.  I attribute that to the fact, we are burning wood, and alot of it.  While the stoves are termed "airtight", we all know they really are not completely 100% "airtight", probably more something like 99%.   *So the question here is, when you say you smell wood, do you smell wood all over the room, or just right at the stove when you sniffing around it?  *


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## Machria (Feb 6, 2013)

Oh, one more thing, what keeps making you change the door gasket?    Is it vissibly leaking or something?


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## 3fordasho (Feb 6, 2013)

Stalled cat after reloads = stove top temp at 250F minimum and the flue drops around 325-350f - I'll go outside and see smoke (not steam) and smell it outside.  To solve I reopen bypass for several minutes, get active flames established in the box, close bypass and cut draft but not too much - seems If I maintain 400f flue temps I will not have a stalled cat- work draft down slowly.  This process can take much more time than my fireview and I might have to do this cycle a few times on the hybrid.

Last night with stove top at 300f, flue at 500f, I closed the bypass and within a couple minutes there was almost no flame and the flue temps had dropped to 350F,  I am almost certain I will find the entry side of the cat plugged with fly ash when I pull it out later tonight.  Much more smell in this situation (understandable with plugged cat)

Inside smell -  I can smell it in the stove room, and on the second floor in my bedroom.   It is not from a backpuff- something I rarely experience with the PH, that is more common on my fireview. 
I've been replacing door gaskets on the PH in an attempt to eliminate this smell- no other reason.
No visible leaks - some brown staining on the last gasket I pulled out.

I am sure the cooktop is the unshielded version.


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## Slow1 (Feb 6, 2013)

The first time I looked at my cat it appeared to be a bit clogged.  Since then I've pulled it out about once a month and although I see some ash on it, it doesn't look anywhere near clogged.  I generally blow it out (a few deep breaths) outside and will see dust fly out of it then put it back in reversed from the way it was before (the theory being that maybe that will force the dust out the direction it came in... but in any case, no harm in doing it).

Smoke smell - I get that too.  I have a new gasket to install whenever I get a good time to do it, but not convinced that it is a door gasket issue as my existing one seems fine to me.

Stovetop temps - I measure just to the side of the flue exit (I vent vertical).  Generally my running temps there have been in the 400-500 range with the air just about fully closed (on warmer days I leave it a crack open).  I am now running the shielded cooktop and find the temps in the middle are about 120* cooler than the thermometer area (checking with IR gun).  The side stones tend to be a bit (20-60*) hotter.

My burn times are legendary for a PH - in a negative sense.  Can't explain it, but everything seems 'right' in terms of the way the stove burns and everything but even with the monster splits I can't get an easy reload much after 10-11hrs.  Sure there are a few coals in there 12-13 hrs later, but not enough to really load and go.  I wonder sometimes about the definitions of the timings that folks report.  However, I am getting a lot of heat and overall seem to be burning about the same amount of wood as I did with the FV so I am not complaining.  We are doing 3 loads a day now that it is colder out (i.e. temps in the low 30's or less during  the day) and that compares to 4-6 a day in the FV (smaller stove after all).


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## 3fordasho (Feb 6, 2013)

Slow1 said:


> My burn times are legendary for a PH - in a negative sense. Can't explain it, but everything seems 'right' in terms of the way the stove burns and everything but even with the monster splits I can't get an easy reload much after 10-11hrs. Sure there are a few coals in there 12-13 hrs later, but not enough to really load and go. I wonder sometimes about the definitions of the timings that folks report. However, I am getting a lot of heat and overall seem to be burning about the same amount of wood as I did with the FV so I am not complaining. We are doing 3 loads a day now that it is colder out (i.e. temps in the low 30's or less during the day) and that compares to 4-6 a day in the FV (smaller stove after all).


 
Those burn times are pretty much on par for what I see. A full load of 16" splits (oak/honeylocust) at 9pm will be down below 250F by 5am the next morning but lots of coals for a reload- lesser woods perform similar as far as temps but less coals after 8 hrs....  The fireview has a better top temp after 8 hrs but the PH is getting the house warmer.  Part of the problem is the short splits, but that's what I have for now. 

To be honest I was expecting better burn times but would be satisfied with the stove if my other issues could be resolved.


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## Slow1 (Feb 6, 2013)

I'm also burning splits that are about 16" - I have another 2 years before those 21" pieces are ready to burn (maybe I'll be lucky and get 3 years... it is oak).

I am hoping to find a solution to the smoke smell, but otherwise I'm very happy with the stove - very much happy about the heat output and ease of running it.


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## Machria (Feb 6, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> Stalled cat after reloads = stove top temp at 250F minimum and the flue drops around 325-350f - I'll go outside and see smoke (not steam) and smell it outside. To solve I reopen bypass for several minutes, get active flames established in the box, close bypass and cut draft but not too much - seems If I maintain 400f flue temps I will not have a stalled cat- work draft down slowly. This process can take much more time than my fireview and I might have to do this cycle a few times on the hybrid.


 
When you say flue *drops to 325-350*, do you mean the pipe temp, or some other measurement?   When my cat is running, my "flue temp" (measureed with the magnetic temp gauge about 12" above stove on single wall pipe) hovers between 200 and 300, ussually between 225 and 250, and it stays there unless I get a real blazer going with lots of small wood and air turned up.   I'm just trying to understand how you are measuring things to compare.  My pipe gauge at 200-250 means the flue gasses are 400 to 500 degrees inside (about double outside pipe temp). 




Slow1 said:


> Smoke smell - I get that too. I have a new gasket to install whenever I get a good time to do it, but not convinced that it is a door gasket issue as my existing one seems fine to me.


 
Check that other thread listed above with other possible problems (mising bolt  or something...).



Slow1 said:


> Stovetop temps - I measure just to the side of the flue exit (I vent vertical). Generally my running temps there have been in the 400-500 range with the air just about fully closed (on warmer days I leave it a crack open). I am now running the shielded cooktop and find the temps in the middle are about 120* cooler than the thermometer area (checking with IR gun). The side stones tend to be a bit (20-60*) hotter.


 
That 's about what I see, except my top flue collar only gets up to 400-500 when I'm burning a pretty hot fire, otherwise it's between 325 and 400 normally.  But the side top stones are ussually about 20 to 50 degrees hotter than the center stone.  And the stone is always 100+ lower than the metal flue collar and cast iron on the rear of stove.




Slow1 said:


> My burn times are legendary for a PH - in a negative sense. Can't explain it, but everything seems 'right' in terms of the way the stove burns and everything but even with the monster splits I can't get an easy reload much after 10-11hrs. Sure there are a few coals in there 12-13 hrs later, but not enough to really load and go. I wonder sometimes about the definitions of the timings that folks report. However, I am getting a lot of heat and overall seem to be burning about the same amount of wood as I did with the FV so I am not complaining. We are doing 3 loads a day now that it is colder out (i.e. temps in the low 30's or less during the day) and that compares to 4-6 a day in the FV (smaller stove after all).


 
I define "burn time" as the lenght of time from load, to the last time I can re-load without needing to add kindling or a fiewstarter/match...   so in otherwords, enough red coals to start new logs.  I normally get 10 to 12 hours, wtih what I would call a 1/2 load.  That is, I fill the box about 3/4 the way up to top, BUT, the splits are anywhere between 14 and 18" long, so they do not coem anywhere close to reachign the full width of the box, so there is alot of empty space on one, or both sides.  Sometimes when I have very short splits, I'll fill that side space in with a small split or two.

When I load with longer splits, 18 to 22", then I get 12 to 16 hours depending on the size of splits, and type of wood.  I have noticed the size of the splits makes a BIG difference.  Also how you load the splits.  If you have smaller splits, you can lenghten the burn time by packing them in tight.  If there is alot of airspace betweem them, they will burn much quicker.




3fordasho said:


> Those burn times are pretty much on par for what I see. A full load of 16" splits (oak/honeylocust) at 9pm will be down below 250F by 5am the next morning but lots of coals for a reload- lesser woods perform similar as far as temps but less coals after 8 hrs.... The fireview has a better top temp after 8 hrs but the PH is getting the house warmer. Part of the problem is the short splits, but that's what I have for now.
> 
> To be honest I was expecting better burn times but would be satisfied with the stove if my other issues could be resolved.


 
Something intersting I found last week kinda by accident you guys mith want to try with the shorter splits.   Normally I load the short splists in the middle of the box, with 4-6" empty on each side of them.  Well, one day I slid them all in not paying attention, and pushed them all all the way back to the other side of the stove.  So I ended up with a significant empty space on the door side of the stove, 8 or 10" wide, floor to ceiling.  So I took 3 medium to large splits, that were very short (12" or so) and layed them in N-S to fil that empty space.  Well, I barely had any red coals on this reload, and somehow the big E-W splits I had pushed all the way in smothered most of the coals out.  But the coals under the N-S splits close to the door lit up, and started the N-S splits up.  After a few minutes, they got goping pretty good and the stove got up to temp so I closed the bypass and shut down the air, with only 1/4 of the stove burning(the N-S splits), close to the door.  Next check of the stove was 12 hours later in the late morning, I had a nice fire still going, not just coals!   It seemed as if it burned like a N-S load in a BK or something.  It burned from right (door side) to left slowly down the logs.  Tmnep in the hosue was normall all night, and the stove was still very hot.  It burned for about 4 more hours before I reloaded that day, and I re-loaded on a large hot bed I could have leet go longer. 

This could be an actual technique for a long burn, instead of accident.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 6, 2013)

Machria said:


> When you say flue *drops to 325-350*, do you mean the pipe temp, or some other measurement? When my cat is running, my "flue temp" (measureed with the magnetic temp gauge about 12" above stove on single wall pipe) hovers between 200 and 300, ussually between 225 and 250, and it stays there unless I get a real blazer going with lots of small wood and air turned up. I'm just trying to understand how you are measuring things to compare. My pipe gauge at 200-250 means the flue gasses are 400 to 500 degrees inside (about double outside pipe temp).


 
I am measuring flue temps with a tel-tru probe type thermometer.  The sensing coil is inside the probe which is inside the flue pipe.  I find them to be fairly accurate.   Once the stove is up to temp and cat is working properly, the flue temps will range from 400-500F for the active part of the burn. Most burns are closer to 400F, 500f being an exceptional hot load - smaller splits loaded onto a larger than normal coal bed.


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## Machria (Feb 6, 2013)

Gotcha, that sounds consistent to my temps.


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## Waulie (Feb 6, 2013)

Maybe the smoke smell and the burn times are related?

I load and go at 12 hours all the time and often with quite a bit less than a full load.  This was from a previous thread and all with 16+/- spilts.....



> I think it is mostly split size that causes the difference.
> 
> Here were my coals with a 70% (height wise) load after 12 hours. I had just raked them forward.
> 
> ...


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## rdust (Feb 6, 2013)

Have any of you guys measured how much of the firebox is being used with 16" splits?  I don't think the burn times being reported are bad for the amount of firebox that is unused. 

Also has anyone measured the usable firebox size? 

I'd love to see more pictures of these stoves with full loads.


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## Waulie (Feb 6, 2013)

rdust said:


> Have any of you guys measured how much of the firebox is being used with 16" splits? I don't think the burn times being reported are bad for the amount of firebox that is unused.
> 
> Also has anyone measured the usable firebox size?
> 
> I'd love to see more pictures of these stoves with full loads.


 
I have measured it before but now I can't remember the exact dimensions.  As I recall, the actual useable space was not too much under the reported firebox size.  I think it was around 2.5 cft.  I'll take a pic of tonights load although it won't be packed super tight with a low of only 22 degrees and me wanting to reload after 12 hours.


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## fire_man (Feb 6, 2013)

Machria said:


> However, I did notice there is a slight bend in the top of the frame on it, I took a pic and am sending it to Woodstock to check if ok/normal. But I have yet to see anything get on/in/around the cat or the screen at the top of the firebox. I burn both fully closed for long slow burns sometimes, but mostly with the air slightly open.


 
Machria;

Was the "slight bend" on the left side of the frame, kind of like it was not completely bolted down properly? Any chance you could post a picture?


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## Flamestead (Feb 6, 2013)

My cat accumulates ash fairly rapidly. I've wondered if it is my wood (Red Maple, CSS about 20 months with first year outdoors), or if it is a strong draft (tall chimney with insulated liner, house out in the open). Just cleaned the cat during a "warm" day recently, and wife noted that it had only been 2.5 weeks since the last cleaning. It wasn't as bad as I've let it get before, but you could see a clear difference in the flames as the bypass was closed. It probably doesn't help that my screen isn't retaining its shape very well (add heat and it soon sags). We are burning 24/7 (burned 4 full cord to date this season), 18" medium-sized splits.

Regarding smell, we occasionally (rarely) have a slight smell. All gaskets are original. I suspect a clogged cat would accentuate to any smoke leaks.

We aim for higher stovetop temps (500-600), and as a result see a little higher flue temps than you are seeing. Almost always a secondaries burn going in this colder weather.


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## fire_man (Feb 6, 2013)

Waulie said:


> The new screen doesn't seem to catch much flyash because I rarely have to brush it. This hasn't led to a clogged cat either. I just cleaned mine a week ago for the first time this year and it had a bit of buildup but not bad at all.


 

Waulie: Has your screen sagged at all? I assume by "new screen" you mean the one that clips into a bracket.


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## Waulie (Feb 6, 2013)

fire_man said:


> Waulie: Has your screen sagged at all? I assume by "new screen" you mean the one that clips into a bracket.


 
Yeah, it did finally sag. It took a while before it did. I bent it back once and it has since sagged again. It is hanging maybe a half inch in back and I haven't even bothered with it. To be honest, I haven't cleaned the new screen once (other than when I bent it back) since I got it. Therefore, I'm pretty convinced it doesn't really do anything. I mean, if nothing accumulates on the screen, what could it be blocking? I know the draft is designed with the screen in place so I just leave it there but I'm not getting bent out of shape (terrible pun) about it. I just cleaned my cat after a little over 2 cords and had only minor accumulation with no blockage.


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## Waulie (Feb 6, 2013)

Also, I didn't take a pic of my load tonight because it was basically identical to the pic above.  I'm all set with 12 hour burns and if it's not that cold out, I'm not loading her up full.  I'll try to get one when it gets cold again.  I should have thought of it the last couple weeks as I had it pretty packed several times.


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## Machria (Feb 6, 2013)

fire_man said:


> Machria;
> 
> Was the "slight bend" on the left side of the frame, kind of like it was not completely bolted down properly? Any chance you could post a picture?



My slight bend is just off center, on the top of it.  Kinda like its sagging in one spot.   I don't have the pic with me, will post it tomorrow.  Woodstock said it was not ok, and is sending a replacement.  The cat only had one Verticle support, and they said they normally have two supports, so they are sending me one with 2 supports.


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## Machria (Feb 6, 2013)

Waulie said:


> Yeah, it did finally sag. It took a while before it did. I bent it back once and it has since sagged again. It is hanging maybe a half inch in back and I haven't even bothered with it. To be honest, I haven't cleaned the new screen once (other than when I bent it back) since I got it. Therefore, I'm pretty convinced it doesn't really do anything. I mean, if nothing accumulates on the screen, what could it be blocking? I know the draft is designed with the screen in place so I just leave it there but I'm not getting bent out of shape (terrible pun) about it. I just cleaned my cat after a little over 2 cords and had only minor accumulation with no blockage.



Whether something is actually stuck on the screen or not does not necessarily depict wether it is blocking anything or not.  Don't make that mistake. How much stuff is stuck on your windshield after driving for 10 hours?  BUT, just imagine driving 10 hours with no windshield.


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## Todd 2 (Feb 6, 2013)

Flamestead said:


> My cat accumulates ash fairly rapidly. I've wondered if it is my wood (Red Maple, CSS about 20 months with first year outdoors), or if it is a strong draft (tall chimney with insulated liner, house out in the open). Just cleaned the cat during a "warm" day recently, and wife noted that it had only been 2.5 weeks since the last cleaning. It wasn't as bad as I've let it get before, but you could see a clear difference in the flames as the bypass was closed. It probably doesn't help that my screen isn't retaining its shape very well (add heat and it soon sags). We are burning 24/7 (burned 4 full cord to date this season), 18" medium-sized splits.
> 
> Regarding smell, we occasionally (rarely) have a slight smell. All gaskets are original. I suspect a clogged cat would accentuate to any smoke leaks.
> 
> We aim for higher stovetop temps (500-600), and as a result see a little higher flue temps than you are seeing. Almost always a secondaries burn going in this colder weather.


My screen sags in the back also, heat sags faster now than before and I have noticed cat fly ash worse with the screen sagging, not alot but worse than with the screen fitting tight. (same wood all along)
I called Woodstock with my findings and talked with the guys in the back about brainstorm I came up with to mount a small strip of stainless with screws so the screen could rest on it in the back an not gap sag with heat.
They said they would do some experimenting this week cause the holes were already there in the secondary plate to mount it to (a couple of the air holes) they said there were plenty of them so using 2-3 of them shouldn't affect anything. said they would get back to me later this week or next an that it might work. 
They sure are some great people to work with, for any of the small issues I've had.
I received my new cat last friday ( warped problem ) the new one has 3 strap support legs. Looks like it should solve the problem. I dont hear the louder cat heatup pings like the single leg ones.

No smoke smell at all here either, but my draft is a++ so dont get much chance to to leak smoke smell

I burn mostly locust-oak and I do half to close the air down at a slower pace on load ups to get the load charred good for proper lower burns, compared to softer woods.

Todd2


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## rideau (Feb 6, 2013)

I just checked my screen. It had quite a bit of white/gray ash build up - I'd guess up to 1/3 compromised.

I had it out less than a month ago, bent it, cleaned it well, reinstalled. Had an awful time getting it back in. Don't want to take it out to clean it. Just tried scraping it with the poker, which did some good. How is anyone cleaning it, who is cleaning it insitu in a hot stove?

When I took the screen out and bent it (because of sagging), I bent it a LOT, and had a really hard time getting it back in. And it still sags down. Not as bad a before, but still. I bent it so much the screen has real dimples where the cotter pins are. No point in trying to bend it more. I find if I wack the screen forward pretty nicely with the poker it snugs up...for a short time.

Machria, I was going to tell you that you do indeed need a new cat, but Woodstock beat me to it. I had to replace mine recently. My new one has been in use just under two weeks. I'm wondering what it looks like, having seen the build up on the screen. I don't really want to take the cat out more often than I have to, because i don't want issues with the gasket. I also really don't want to get the stove cold when it is 5 degrees out....

I have definitely had my cat get plugged and had to clean it. This never happened with the fireview, but we had bigger honeycombs in the Fireview. This cat, I'm sure, is more efficient at burning the smoke/gasses. Wonder if any Fireview owners who have switched to stainless cats are finding they are either burning less wood or producing more heat from the same wood? Also, if their cats are getting plugged? They have a much less fine screen, so you'd think they'd have a bigger problem.

Tim, go ahead and call Woodstock. They'll send you a new cat. It is likely an issue with the cat. When you get the new one, I'd clean the old one in vinegar and water, and keep it as an emergency back up. When my 1st replacement cat warped, I used the old one which I had cleaned and kept, and it did the trick while I waited for the 2nd replacement.

Which brings me to a question...Where do you clean your cat, if you have cleaned it? The recipe calls for soaking it in a bath of 1/2 vinegar. 1/2 soft water. I don't have anything except my bathtub long enough to hold this cat, and don't intend putting that much vinegar in a tub....did a halfway decent job, on an angle in my sink (yuk), but would love any suggestions for something long enough and small enough in volume to make sense for this stove's cat....

Though, I do seem to have a stronger draft with this stove than I had with the Fireview, and that may be the source of many of my problems. I'm sure this is at least in part because I moved from rear exit flue with 90 degree bend up, to verticle exit flue. May also be in part stove design. I do have tall internal stack and excellent draft. Wondering if others with clogging issues of screen/cat have a similar set up. The currents may be strong enough to be pulling ash up. I'm certainly getting hotter flue temps than I want, and in cold weather cannot get rid of flames in the box.

Last year, when I first had the stove, because of this issue, Woodstock told me to just close the cat right away upon reloading, and let the cat engage whenever it was ready. I did that, and found I could get a really long cat burn. However, I stopped doing it this year because of all the negative reactions of people on the forum to the process of engaging the cat before the stove temps were up. So, before putting in a damper, which I am afraid is going to require all new double wall chimney pipe, I'm going to go back to trying the cold engagement of the cat.

I'm have no idea why my cat is getting plugged. Burning the same types of wood I have for years.


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## Machria (Feb 7, 2013)

rideau said:
			
		

> Last year, when I first had the stove, because of this issue, Woodstock told me to just close the cat right away upon reloading, and let the cat engage whenever it was ready. I did that, and found I could get a really long cat burn. However, I stopped doing it this year because of all the negative reactions of people on the forum to the process of engaging the cat before the stove temps were up. So, before putting in a damper, which I am afraid is going to require all new double wall chimney pipe, I'm going to go back to trying the cold engagement of the cat.



I often wonder why people are so infused with making sure the stove is up to temp before closing bypass.  It really will have no affect other than slowing the fire down via less draft.  As long as your not doing this with "cold air" in the stove which could damage the cat from the large temp differential, I don't see why it is a problem at all.  That said, I always wait for 260 to 300 pipe temp before turning it.


What gasket are you worried about damaging when removing the cat?  The gasket is in the back of it, and doesn't move when I remove the cat.  ?  ?


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## rideau (Feb 7, 2013)

Mine came lose on one section in the bottom, and a number of other people have had theirs come lose at the top and have had to reglue the gasket.  Woodstock gave me gasket glue for it, rather than cement.  I just don't want it to come lose. 

That being said, when I checked my screen a about an hour ago it was rather clogged, so I decided to go ahead and check the cat...even though it is new and has only been installed for 10 days. 

Glad I did!

Surface was completely covered with fine white ash.  Completely.  So I brushed it off and reinstalled it. 

I'm really beginning to wonder if my draft is ridiculous?  Can't imagine why there is so much ash getting pulled up. 

I have loaded the stove with a 3 inch round of ash, a 4 inch round of ironwood and a decent size split (about 7" on all sides) of maple, as well as a few small ironwood branches.  And I have closed the air completely and the bypass in closed.  Did this 14 minutes ago.  On a decent bed of colas, but not a large one, because I had burned down pretty much before checking the cat.  So I'll see how long it takes for the cat to light off.  Maybe if I burn this way the stove will stay in cat mode and the cat will stya clean.  We'll see if I get enough heat with the cold temps out...5 degrees F tonight.  And a bit windy.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 7, 2013)

My screen looks to be about 1/2 plugged and it was brushed off the last time I removed ash from the firebox - I may have even removed it for cleaning, or maybe it was the time before that.  Anyway this was sooner than I would usually clean it as the firebox ash build up is not excessive yet.  I wonder why so much fly ash?

I didn't get to the cat yet because there were too many hot coals to get burned down.  I'll find out tonight but I'm sure it's partially blocked by fly ash.






rideau said:


> Mine came lose on one section in the bottom, and a number of other people have had theirs come lose at the top and have had to reglue the gasket. Woodstock gave me gasket glue for it, rather than cement. I just don't want it to come lose.
> 
> That being said, when I checked my screen a about an hour ago it was rather clogged, so I decided to go ahead and check the cat...even though it is new and has only been installed for 10 days.
> 
> ...


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## Waulie (Feb 7, 2013)

My plan for cleaning the screen in place was a grill brush, but like I said I haven't had to do it.  It should be very simple.

I haven't seen any change in cat accumulations with my sagging screen.  IDK why others are having issues with accumulation.  The screws into air holes idea could be a good fix.  My original screen gunked up very fast and was a real PITA to deal with.  The new screen doesn't gunk up at all and I haven't noticed any change with the cat. It didn't even gunk up when it still fit tight.  When I took it out to bend it back in place it only had a little bit of flyash on the ends.

As for cleaning the cat, I'm just refering to cleaning the flyash off.  The vinegar soak shouldn't be necessary except very rarely.


----------



## rideau (Feb 7, 2013)

Waulie said:


> My plan for cleaning the screen in place was a grill brush, but like I said I haven't had to do it. It should be very simple.
> 
> I haven't seen any change in cat accumulations with my sagging screen. IDK why others are having issues with accumulation. The screws into air holes idea could be a good fix. My original screen gunked up very fast and was a real PITA to deal with. The new screen doesn't gunk up at all and I haven't noticed any change with the cat. It didn't even gunk up when it still fit tight. When I took it out to bend it back in place it only had a little bit of flyash on the ends.
> 
> As for cleaning the cat, I'm just refering to cleaning the flyash off. The vinegar soak shouldn't be necessary except very rarely.


 
Yes, Waulie, I know that. When I took my original cat out, I wanted to clean it because I wondered if it wasn't working well because of accumulation inside the cat. Also, for a back up if anything happened to the new cat. (Glad I did clean it!) At that time, I could not find anything big enough to soak the cat, because of its length. SO I just want to get any suggestions for siomnething reasonable.

Thanks.

By the way, I am into my second fire that I am starting the way Woodstock told me to last year...loading up on coals, shutting everything down immeditely, and just ignoring the stove from there on. Find it takes about 25 minutes to get to active flames, and I do get active flames throughout the burn until down to coals, just like I do with a regular start, BUT there is a big difference. On the first fire the flue temp never went above 500. I strated my second fire about 25 minutes ago, it has just broken into lots of flames, so I'll watch and see what the flue temps do this time.

Thanks for the suggestion of a grill brush.  I'll get one.


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## Slow1 (Feb 7, 2013)

rideau said:


> By the way, I am into my second fire that I am starting the way Woodstock told me to last year...loading up on coals, shutting everything down immeditely, and just ignoring the stove from there on. Find it takes about 25 minutes to get to active flames, and I do get active flames throughout the burn until down to coals, just like I do with a regular start, BUT there is a big difference. On the first fire the flue temp never went above 500. I strated my second fire about 25 minutes ago, it has just broken into lots of flames, so I'll watch and see what the flue temps do this time.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion of a grill brush. I'll get one.


 
I'm really curious if you do this and check the chimney is it smoking at all?


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## rideau (Feb 7, 2013)

Slow1 said:


> I'm really curious if you do this and check the chimney is it smoking at all?


 
I just went out to check..in sweatshirt and a light pair of garden gloves since I was just going to take a quick look at the chimney.  Artan (Wheaten) slipped out with me and thought we were going for a walk, so we did...down the road, where I picked up a couple of 3 inch branches I had pulled to the side of the road, and carted them home.  OMG!  It's cold out there.  My fingers are freezing. 

My flue temp is 540, my stovetop on the cast next to the verticle exit is 330, and I DO have some smoke coming out of the chimney.  Good fire going in the box too, now 45 minutes into the burn, which doesn't happen with a regular start up.  The fire is relaly active now, glass clean, etc.  Am going to pop outside (without Artan!) and see what the chimney is doing. 

I'm a softie.  We went for another walk...upsides, I had on polartec lined wool mittens and got a few more branches into the yard before our expected snowfall...Downside, there is still smoke coming out the chimney...but:  maybe it is steam?  It is 14 out, wind out of the north (feels colder!), and the stuff coming out of the chimney is completely gone before it reaches the front of the roof...I'd guess gone in about ten feet.  If I stand under the eve I can't tell it is "smoking".  Stovetop temp is 390, flue is 580, glass is clear, constant but slow wispy flames arising from coal bed area...coals bright red, bottom of lowest split red, no activity at the secondary air holes....a good burn, but not a cool flue.  I think it is steam I am seeing.  Will see if it is gone in a few minutes, when most moisture should be out of the wood. 

Have noticed steam a few times in the past during the early part of the burn, when conditions are just right (or wrong) outside.  Today cold (14), wind out of the north, and quite humid air...we are about to get a snowstorm.


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## Machria (Feb 7, 2013)

fire_man said:


> Machria;
> 
> Was the "slight bend" on the left side of the frame, kind of like it was not completely bolted down properly? Any chance you could post a picture?


 
Here ya go....


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## Todd 2 (Feb 7, 2013)

The newest cat in the PH Rock, 7 days of light 24-7 burning so far so good.


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## Slow1 (Feb 7, 2013)

Interesting - if you look at the two cats posted above (Todd2 and Machria) you can see that they had a change in design... Note the additional supports (3 on the newer one vs 1 on the older).


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## Todd 2 (Feb 7, 2013)

Slow1 said:


> Interesting - if you look at the two cats posted above (Todd2 and Machria) you can see that they had a change in design... Note the additional supports (3 on the newer one vs 1 on the older).


My first 2 warped like Machria's. They put me on the list for this improved version and I received it last wed. 
I asked them if cat burning at 500 to 550 center stone temp and rear cast top beside top flue pipe (thermometer & IR gun measured alot while learning the stove) was hard on the cat, they said by no means that it is just a bug they were working on with the cat Mfg. Seems to be doing the trick but I haven't went much over 450 top temp. the past 7 days.

Todd2


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## Machria (Feb 7, 2013)

Todd, looks like you also have a visible gasket around the front edges of the cat?  I only have a gasket around the back of the cat (have to reach I with it removed to feel it).   Am I missing that gasket?   Anyone else have that ?


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## Todd 2 (Feb 8, 2013)

Machria said:


> Todd, looks like you also have a visible gasket around the front edges of the cat? I only have a gasket around the back of the cat (have to reach I with it removed to feel it). Am I missing that gasket? Anyone else have that ?


It is a small sorta soft rope gasket that you shove in with a putty knife with the cat already in place. Woodstock said its to hold it in place to the seated gasket.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 8, 2013)

The cat screen was about 50% plugged, photo snapped after some was aready removed.
I found this build up to be harder to remove and required a brass brush from both sides to get it cleaned- also this was brushed off from inside the firebox ~ 2 weeks ago:






So I'm really wondering why so much build up in a short time.. at this rate I'll need to clean both screen and cat everytime the firebox ash build up needs to be removed.

Here is the entry side of the cat about 3-4weeks since the last cleaning- I'd say about 85% plugged. The fly ash was easily removed with the shop vacuum.


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## Slow1 (Feb 8, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> The cat screen was about 50% plugged, photo snapped after some was aready removed.
> I found this build up to be harder to remove and required a brass brush from both sides to get it cleaned- also this was brushed off from inside the firebox ~ 2 weeks ago:
> 
> So I'm really wondering why so much build up in a short time.. at this rate I'll need to clean both screen and cat everytime the firebox ash build up needs to be removed.
> ...


 
I hate to suggest it but how is your wood supply?  Last fall I had a few sizzlers in my wood and both the screen and the cat had far more buildup than I do now and I haven't seen a sizzler since last November.

Since all smoke goes through the screen even in bypass mode I wonder if it may just collect more from startups when there is heavier smoke going through there.

Also - do you regularly have that screen heated up to glowing?  I've watched the fly ash burn up when it hits the glowing screen.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 8, 2013)

As far as the roll pins in the upper rear corners of the stove (mentioned by Doug60 in another thread) they can be accessed by removing the top stones and cooktop, locate visually with a small inspection mirror and flashlight then I was able to get my fingers back there with a dab of stove cement and work it into and around the pin... I don't know how much smoke smell could actually get through those but we'll see if it makes a difference.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 8, 2013)

Slow1 said:


> I hate to suggest it but how is your wood supply? Last fall I had a few sizzlers in my wood and both the screen and the cat had far more buildup than I do now and I haven't seen a sizzler since last November.
> 
> Since all smoke goes through the screen even in bypass mode I wonder if it may just collect more from startups when there is heavier smoke going through there.
> 
> Also - do you regularly have that screen heated up to glowing? I've watched the fly ash burn up when it hits the glowing screen.


 

Wood is a combination of white and red oak tops, and a honey locust I must have cut and split ~ 4 years ago.
It was split and stacked right when I got it, stacked outside until middle of last summer when it was moved under roof in the wood shed- I don't think dryness is the issue, however the oak tops have a higher % of bark and sap wood than wood from the main trunk.  I have not noticed any sizzlers this year.

The areas of the screen that were clear are typically the area that is glowing..


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## Waulie (Feb 8, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> The cat screen was about 50% plugged, photo snapped after some was aready removed.
> I found this build up to be harder to remove and required a brass brush from both sides to get it cleaned- also this was brushed off from inside the firebox ~ 2 weeks ago:
> 
> 
> ...


 Holy crap!  Somethings not right for sure but I can't imagine what.  Does Woodstock have any thoughts on this?


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## TheBean (Feb 8, 2013)

Try a 50/50 white vinegar/water soak to remove the hard deposits on the screen. There is a similar but multi-step procedure for a major cat cleaning.


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## Machria (Feb 8, 2013)

Waulie said:


> *Holy crap! Somethings not right for sure but I can't imagine what*. Does Woodstock have any thoughts on this?


 
I'll seconds that!   WOW.  My screen after 7 weeks of almost 24x7 burning the entire time looks pretty much the same as the day I got the stove. 

3fordasho,
Have you checked you draft?  Is your draft ok?   Me thinks you have something else going on.  What kind of lenght chimney do you have,,,,,?


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## 3fordasho (Feb 8, 2013)

Machria said:


> I'll seconds that! WOW. My screen after 7 weeks of almost 24x7 burning the entire time looks pretty much the same as the day I got the stove.
> 
> 3fordasho,
> Have you checked you draft? Is your draft ok? Me thinks you have something else going on. What kind of lenght chimney do you have,,,,,?


 

Draft seems to be ok-  flue set up is straight out the back through wall and then straight up 18 or 21'.  All but last 4' or so are inside a insulated chase.  Pipe is Supervent 6" insulated class A,  the  short section of connector pipe is double wall.  

This is the 3rd cat cleaning this season,  the first cleaning it looked like in the picture, but part of that might have been from last season, the 2nd time it was not too bad but I vacuumed it off anyway, and now plugged again.

Woodstock so far is saying the screen should catch the ash and asked it there are open gaps the screen is not covering...  I just mentioned there is usually a 1/4" gap along one end because the heat makes it sag.  I do bend it back when Ihave it out for cleaning.


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## rideau (Feb 8, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> The cat screen was about 50% plugged, photo snapped after some was aready removed.
> I found this build up to be harder to remove and required a brass brush from both sides to get it cleaned- also this was brushed off from inside the firebox ~ 2 weeks ago:
> 
> 
> ...


 
Could be a picture of mine last night. 

Would like to know what this is all about. 

Burning same wood I always have, never had a problem with the fireview...but my chimney has lost the 90 degree coming out the rear flue exit of the Fireview when I switched to the PH, and I'm thinking it may be an excess draft issue pulling fly ash up.  I gewt flames even witht eh air completely closed in this cold windy weather.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 9, 2013)

rideau said:


> Could be a picture of mine last night.
> 
> Would like to know what this is all about.
> 
> Burning same wood I always have, never had a problem with the fireview...but my chimney has lost the 90 degree coming out the rear flue exit of the Fireview when I switched to the PH, and I'm thinking it may be an excess draft issue pulling fly ash up. I gewt flames even witht eh air completely closed in this cold windy weather.


 
I suspect type of wood maybe a factor, but I am also burning the same wood in a fireview and have not had the issue there.  The fireview has the old coarse screen or flame guard with open sides and still less of a build up issue.  It will build up eventually, but this season I've only had the fireview cat out once and it didn't need to be cleaned.


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## Flamestead (Feb 9, 2013)

My cat and screen would get just like the picture above if I didn't clean it regularly. The screen gets a coarser build-up and takes a stiff brush to clean it well. I do really like this new screen, despite the sagging, because it is easy to pull out and clean, and it lets a lot more air through than the initial style, even when it isn't clean..


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## Waulie (Feb 9, 2013)

This is so strange to me, but apparently common. I really am thinking hard about what could cause such a huge difference, but I just can't imagine. It's been almost a month since I cleaned my screen (when I bent it back in place) and it is still clean as can be. When I pulled my cat a couple weeks ago for the first time this season it had maybe 1/1000 of the buildup in that pic. It's got to be something.

I'm burning a mix of hardwoods. Ash, sugar maple, and beech mostly with ash accounting for probaby 70%. It's dry but not Dennis petrified wood dry. It's been split and stacked for about 1.5 years on average.


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## rideau (Feb 9, 2013)

I've been burning almost 100% sugar maple, just starting with ironwood.  But, I had a problem with ash build up on both the screen and the cat last year, when I was burning mostly ironwood...and ironwood that was many years dead standing, then fell, then was c/s/s and in stacks for several years...so it's not likely my wood.  This is the same wood that I burned in the FIreview for years, and I never had to clean the cat in the Fireview, even at season's end.  The only thing that has changed, other than stove design, is my pipe.  And the fact that we are dealing with a finer mesh, steel cat.  The 90 degree bend at the back of the stove for the rear exit Fireview has been eliminated.  I suspect all this must have something to do with my draft, which is "improved" since the 90 degree was removed.  Am guessing the draft is pulling up fly ash.  In this cold weather, even with air completely closed, I have active flames in the box for many hours, and cannot get a cat burn with no active flame.  Not crazy flames, but flames.  And a stovetop temp, as measured on cast iron by flue exit, of about 450.  I am now 5 hours into a burn, and the stovetop temp is 450, flue temp about 500.


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## rdust (Feb 9, 2013)

rideau said:


> I suspect all this must have something to do with my draft, which is "improved" since the 90 degree was removed. Am guessing the draft is pulling up fly ash.


 
That would also be my uneducated guess along with some people may be burning hot enough to burn the fly ash of their screen.


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## fire_man (Feb 10, 2013)

Machria said:


> Here ya go....


 I Thought you were talking about the cast iron piece above the cat. That makes more sense - thanks for the Picture..


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## mfglickman (Feb 10, 2013)

Just a wild idea that I've not seen suggested here yet....how close are your neighbors and do any of them burn wood? 

Reason I ask is that several times lately I've smelled smoke in the house, at a time when either the fire is going merrily along or in coals - not startup at all. Felt like I'd lost my mind, looking for the source...then finally I went outside, and found the air full of smoke in the backyard - yep, my "next door" neighbor (maybe 100 yards away) had smoke billowing out of his chimney...and that was finding its way through air leaks into my house.


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## WarmInIowa (Feb 23, 2013)

I clean my screen at least once or twice / week.  I have the new screen, so it is quick and easy; I just use the fireplace tool with the bristles.  I has to be done in the morning when it is cooler after burning all night or the bristles catch fire..... oops~

I also vac the cat about every two weeks.  Otherwise it doesn't start to accumulate fine ash. This keeps it plugged and free.  Again, I just plan ahead.  There is usually some time in a week when I end up working late, so that it's been 15+ hours since I loaded and it has burned down cool enough where I can vacuum it in place.  I don't removed it to do this.  Just a 10 second quick vacuum to keep accumulation off of it.

I also have replaced the door gasket several times to reduce the smoke smell. Each time it works well for a couple months and then starts to smell more again.  Right now I replaced it two weeks ago, so the smell is not bothersome - yet.


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## rideau (Feb 23, 2013)

When you clean your creen, do you remove the screen from the stove, or clean it in situ?  I'm a bit surprised vacuuming the cat in the stove works well, because all the accumulation is on the far side.....Also, a pain to be having to do the screen and cat clean so often...means one has to let the stove cool down.  Have you let Woodstock know you are having to do these cleanings this often?  They can't want that to be necessary....A problem for them to resolve, for a number of us.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 23, 2013)

I am pretty much having the exact same experience right down to the door gasket.  I've replaced the door gasket twice and it needs it again.  I'm sure it would pass a dollar bill test but it seems this stove needs a very tight seal around the door.  I've burned two different fireviews and never replaced a gasket,  never a smoke smell unless it's backpuffing and thats easy to avoid.  Wish I could solve this issue but my attemps have at least reduced it so it's not as objectionable.

Lately I've been noticing  smoke out the stack at times when the cat should be active and cleaning up the smoke-  like a fresh charred load, stove top at 300F or so..  if the flue temp drops below 400f there will be smoke out the stack...  My fireview will not smoke in such conditions.  The PH cat is just at one year old about now...   wonder if I've got a bad one..





WarmInIowa said:


> I clean my screen at least once or twice / week. I have the new screen, so it is quick and easy; I just use the fireplace tool with the bristles. I has to be done in the morning when it is cooler after burning all night or the bristles catch fire..... oops~
> 
> I also vac the cat about every two weeks. Otherwise it doesn't start to accumulate fine ash. This keeps it plugged and free. Again, I just plan ahead. There is usually some time in a week when I end up working late, so that it's been 15+ hours since I loaded and it has burned down cool enough where I can vacuum it in place. I don't removed it to do this. Just a 10 second quick vacuum to keep accumulation off of it.
> 
> I also have replaced the door gasket several times to reduce the smoke smell. Each time it works well for a couple months and then starts to smell more again. Right now I replaced it two weeks ago, so the smell is not bothersome - yet.


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## WarmInIowa (Feb 25, 2013)

rideau said:


> When you clean your creen, do you remove the screen from the stove, or clean it in situ? I'm a bit surprised vacuuming the cat in the stove works well, because all the accumulation is on the far side.....Also, a pain to be having to do the screen and cat clean so often...means one has to let the stove cool down. Have you let Woodstock know you are having to do these cleanings this often? They can't want that to be necessary....A problem for them to resolve, for a number of us.


 
No, I don't have to remove the screen, just brush it off in place.  Takes 10 seconds.  Yes, Woodstock is aware of my issues and has been working with me to resolve them. I haven't mentioned about vacuuming the CAT that often, but I have a tendency to want to keep things cleaner than necessary, and having a plugged CAT is not something I want since it will most likely increase the smoke smell issue.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 25, 2013)

Shut the stove down yesterday (Feb 24) - time to clean out ash build up in the firebox- although I could have let it go another week.  Pulled out the cat for grins and it's almost as plugged up as it was when I posted a pic of it back on the 8th!!   Something is definately not right... I'm starting to think the cat just isn't firing off and not burning off fly ash like it would if functional...   That coupled with excessive smoke out the stack and again I'm thinking bad cat.


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## WarmInIowa (Feb 25, 2013)

I agree, sounds like you have one of the older cats; I think most or at least many of us with the original cats have had them replaced.  I have, and it made all the difference.  I was experiencing the same light off / sluggish issue as you. 
New cat = no problems with light off anymore.


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## HotCoals (Feb 25, 2013)

I don't think I like idea of not being able to see if the cat is working.
That said I really like that stove and if I needed one that stove would be on my short list...but the more I read I dunno.
Still the company seems second to none with customer support!


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## 3fordasho (Feb 25, 2013)

I've run these issues by the woodstock folks, we'll see what they come up with.  For now they are sending me the cat cleaning proceedure using vinegar/water.  Personally I think the cat has been dead for a while now ;-)

The SS cat in my fireview can go a whole season between cleanings, and cleans up the smoke much better.


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## georgepds (Feb 25, 2013)

rideau said:


> ....Tim, go ahead and call Woodstock. They'll send you a new cat. It is likely an issue with the cat. When you get the new one, I'd clean the old one in vinegar and water, and keep it as an emergency back up. .....


 
FWIIW, when I visited the woodstock stove factory, to order a PH, I asked about cleaning the cat with vinegar. The stove rep told me it would destroy the cat..

I'm open to reason one way or the other.. my entire experience on this matter is recommendations in this forum, and the words of the woodstock stove rep


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## 3fordasho (Feb 25, 2013)

Here is the cat- last cleaned on Feb. 8th:


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## fire_man (Feb 26, 2013)

HOLY SMOKES! Is your Iconel screen sagging in the rear?

SLOW1 mentioned poorly seasoned wood leading to a clogged screen - last year I had one fully seasoned but very wet load of Cottonwood that completely clogged the screen.It was so bad I had to snuff the fire out because the house got smoked out.


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## Machria (Feb 26, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> Here is the cat- last cleaned on Feb. 8th:


 

WOW! That is un-believable. Take the soot from ONE of those little honey-cones, and spread it around the entire cat, and that is the worst I have seen on mine. Something is definitely not right.

Here is a thought, is your BYPASS working properly?? When you turn the bypass handle, does the bypass open and close correctly?


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## fire_man (Feb 26, 2013)

Good thought, Machria on checking the bypass.

That is one clogged cat.


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## Waulie (Feb 26, 2013)

I don't know, but something is for sure not right. 

I'm surprised WS is not just sending you a new cat, especially if you have the original.  The original cats clearly had issues.  After a quick "try this", they sent me a new one with no issues at all.  Like WarmInIowa, it has made all the difference for me.

Despite that, I think something else might be going on.  I mean really, where is all that crap coming from?  Machria had a good thought on checking the bypass.  I hate to say it's a wood issue, but man I can't imagine what else would be clogging the screen and cat so fast.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 26, 2013)

The least seasoned of the wood I'm burning this year is honey locust that was cut and split in may/june 2009.  Just for grins I'll resplit a few and check with the moisture meter when I get a chance.  The rest is even older red and white oak.  No issues burning the same wood in my Fireview and the cat has not even been out since the start of the season.  No real suggestions from Woodstock as of yet.








Waulie said:


> I don't know, but something is for sure not right.
> 
> I'm surprised WS is not just sending you a new cat, especially if you have the original. The original cats clearly had issues. After a quick "try this", they sent me a new one with no issues at all. Like WarmInIowa, it has made all the difference for me.
> 
> Despite that, I think something else might be going on. I mean really, where is all that crap coming from? Machria had a good thought on checking the bypass. I hate to say it's a wood issue, but man I can't imagine what else would be clogging the screen and cat so fast.


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## HotCoals (Feb 26, 2013)

There must be a way for the Progress hybrid owners to tell if the cat is fired..cat probe?
Higher stove to temp?


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## rideau (Feb 26, 2013)

My cat gets just like 3fordasho's, and can do it in less than two weeks, when the weather is bitterly cold.   I've become convinced that it is my draft, sucking ash up through the darn dangling screen, which also gets pretty blocked.  I believe I just have too much draft.  That may be entirely the result of taking the 90 degree bend out when converting from the rear exit flue Fireview to the top exit PH.  Woodstock did recommend to me last year that I put a damper in, but I didn't want to so they had me try the "engage the cat immediately" routine, which does result in a slow cat burn for a bit, once the cat lights off...ie:  I don't go to secondary burn immediately...but pretty soon I get an active secondary burn.  And my flue is hotter than I want...can't get internal temps below 550 or so.  So I will be adding a damper, either in a few weeks or before the shoulder season next year  Don't know if I want to take the stovepipe apart, clean, add a damper, and burn for a month of shoulder season this spring, or just wait til the summer, clean and burn in the Autumn...will depend on whether I decide I want to know whether or not I have solved my problem before the next heating season commences.  Of course, the problem won't be as pronounced once the weather moderates. 
I have had a minor issue with the handle on my bypass coming loose, but I have checked the function of the door, and it seems to be fine.  Woodstock told me they were redesigning the handle or attachment of it?  Don't know if that has happened, or if there will be a retrofit.  They are also (or have) improved the attachment for the smoke shield at the loading door, but I am uncertain if there is a retrofit.  Lorin is checking for me.  Mine comes loose and dangles, which is irritating when loading. 
Any problem I have had with this stove has been an "incidental" , though sometimes irritating, one which I would expect as a possible minor issue with a new design.  Woodstock is working quickly to correct/solve problems.  Thye made it quite clear to us when we ordered early that they were anxious to get a lot out into homes quickly so they could see how they burned and what issues arose in varied real life scenarios, and they gave us a great price for doing this, as well as making the stove available to us a full heating season earlier than it might otherwise have been available. 
So, I am grateful to the company, and very satisfied.  Loved the Fireview, and love the PH, which burns and heats remarkably well, and meets all my needs.


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## rdust (Feb 26, 2013)

Can't you just pull the cat and burn it like a non cat during the colder weather or until WS figures this out?  Having to take the cat out every two weeks for cleaning is nothing short of ridiculous for a person who is trying or needing to heat their home solely with wood.  It really gives the non cat crowd a legit gripe about cats stoves requiring extra attention/maintenance.


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## rideau (Feb 27, 2013)

Won't burn it without the cat.  I don't let the stove cool down before removing the cat...just let the stove burn down to small coal bed so I won't have a smoke issue in the house when I remove the cat. then use a dishtowel to remove the cat (easy), go outside, wait a few minutes and brush it, maybe blow through it, then replace it.  Takes a total of maybe ten minutes.  A nuisance because it should not be necessary so often, but doesn't really take longer than removing ash from the firebox, so not a big deal, and a problem that Woodstock is working with me to resolve.  Most peopel don't have this problem.  I have a tall internal chimney in a very cold location, on top of a cliff at the edge of and above on the southern shore of a large lake that is miles long.   Prevailing winds come howling out of the norht, tear across the lake and up my cliff.  SO I have a significant draft on those bitterly cold (15-35 below F) windy days.We had a lot of them this year.  Last year I did not have this problem.  Only had to clean the cat once.


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## Todd 2 (Feb 27, 2013)

I have had the cat issues all along also, the first 2 warped but the 3rd was the new 3 support leg one. I got tired of re shaping the screen all the time so I left it sag for about 3 weeks and kept 24-7 burning during the cold spell. I noticed each week when reloading the cat light off and surface temp climb kept getting slower. When the weather broke I pulled the cat and it looked almost as bad as the one in the above pic, plus there was alot of fly ash down in the stove behind the cat that was never there before when I kept the screen bent tight to the top.
I Have a very strong draft and my wood will burn really well with the air shut tight (very light flaming) 
So for me the screen is very important with a strong draft to keep the cat alot cleaner, longer.
I've also learned not to open the air up all the way on reloads or burning down coals faster, I have watched it suck the ash into the screen or the gap at faster pace trying to hurry things.
The new cat seems to be holding up great, the screen is my biggest complaint.
Woodstock knows about this screen deal importance and they emailed me yesterday and said they sent a new improved one to try something about bigger support washers i think. I should get it soon and I'll post a pic.
Even with some issues the stove is still and amazing performer, and the flue is still pretty darn clean.

This is a little off post track but goes to show what a outstanding company Woodstoock is !
They(Penny) asked me what do I think of the PH (aside the issues, I think I have had most of them)
I told them it is still an amazing piece of art that keeps my basement to hot while heating the upstairs, I also told them I should have went ahead and gave up the space upstairs and done a new install with a fire view.
* Her Reply * You are still under your 6 months Todd If you want to send the PH back and get a Fire View you will be fully credited and they are on sale and you will also qualify for a repeat customer discount and we will pick up the return shipping... I'm still amazed... and I'm thinking about possibly 2 of them. Heat control upstairs and the           basement would be sweet. The PH has almost paid for it self this year in oil savings, I'm really thinking on this one.
The other half is getting less fearful with her new long stove gloves too.  Amen

What a Company, 

Todd2


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## Machria (Feb 27, 2013)

Man, as I read this, I have an absolute RAGER going right now!   Loaded about 2 hours ago on a huge coal bed, didn't want to wait, it is blowing north at about 60mph, and it's 34f outside, the house was getting chilly.  Well, all I had inside was a bunch of raggedy chunks, ripped, 1/2 split, nitty, odd balled shaped.  What the heck, I loaded all I could and let it rip.  my top is 510 which is super hot for me with the new heat shield under cooktop.  And the pipe is 320, so the cat is burning perfectly.  And, does EVERYONE in the Western Hemisphere feel the heat?   Wow!  It is hard to believe this much heat can come out of that little pile of wood I threw in there.


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## Todd 2 (Feb 27, 2013)

Them PH's will cook Im telling ya, they call my basement south Florida.


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## rideau (Feb 27, 2013)

Really interested about that screen. I'm going to call Woodstock. It isthe biggest problem I have with the stove--all the fly ash getting sucked up by the draft. Did they recommend a damper to you Todd? It sounds like you have the exact same situation I have. I will try refraining from opening the air when I am burning down coals. I'm sure if I could get the screen to fit tightly I'd alleviate a lot of my problems with the cat.

--------------

Spoke with Penny.  They are still working on a better support system for the screen.  Penny concurs that it is my strong draft that is sucking ash up the chimney, so a larger mesh on the screen wont be helpful for me...just more ash in the cat, even if the screen clogs more slowly/not at all.  I need to:  a) get a damper
                            b) get the improved support screen when available
                             c) avoid having air open more at end of burn to facilitate coal burndown, because this causes too much draft. 

Now that the weather is beginning to moderate, my problem will decrease then cease.  Better to have too much draft than too little.


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## rideau (Feb 27, 2013)

Machria said:


> Man, as I read this, I have an absolute RAGER going right now! Loaded about 2 hours ago on a huge coal bed, didn't want to wait, it is blowing north at about 60mph, and it's 34f outside, the house was getting chilly. Well, all I had inside was a bunch of raggedy chunks, ripped, 1/2 split, nitty, odd balled shaped. What the heck, I loaded all I could and let it rip. my top is 510 which is super hot for me with the new heat shield under cooktop. And the pipe is 320, so the cat is burning perfectly. And, does EVERYONE in the Western Hemisphere feel the heat? Wow! It is hard to believe this much heat can come out of that little pile of wood I threw in there.
> 
> View attachment 95218
> 
> ...


 
Nice looking fire!  Just looking at it warms me.  And I know, from experience trying to photograph my nicer fires, the fire itself is so much more impressive that the photographs of it.  I wonder if the infrared filter on the glass contributes to not being able to get a truely representational photograph of the fire?


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## Machria (Feb 27, 2013)

Just for comparisons for you two, my screen is straight, and fully blocks the entire opening.  I can't even picture where it is sagging for you guys....    you can see it in the first pic above, glowing orange/red hot.  I have yet to have anything stuck to that screen since gettign the stove.  I can't even image it, cause it gets so hot (as pictured) sometimes, anything stuck on it would surely get burned completely. 

Do you guys see stuff (ash...) flying around in the stove?   I don't, and that fire pictured last night was one of the "busiest" fires I've had in it.  Between the Super high winds we had and loading a hot stove with lots of chunks and oddballs, the stove was roaring with alot of air movement.  But still, no ashes were flying around....


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## Machria (Feb 27, 2013)

rideau said:


> Nice looking fire! Just looking at it warms me. And I know, from experience trying to photograph my nicer fires, the fire itself is so much more impressive that the photographs of it. I wonder if the infrared filter on the glass contributes to not being able to get a truely representational photograph of the fire?


 
Funny you say that, I must have taken 200 photo's one night a few weeks ago trying to capture the colors, and more importantly the "Natural Gas BBQ Jets" that come ouf of the 2ndary tubes, and I just could not get it and wondered why. I tried with my iPhone 5, Ipad 3, and high end 20mpixel digital camera. They all lacked what I could actually see and I blew it off to being a limitation of the digital camera's CCD chips. Maybe you have something there, the IR glass?

And yor right, those shots didn't do it justice.      I've noticed you can never capture the 2ndaries for some reason.  They were jets all the way across last night, yet you can barely see them in pics.


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## rideau (Feb 27, 2013)

Many people have had the screen sag.  Look inside your stove, at the top rear where the screen touches the secondary burn plate.  There can be a pretty big gap there.  Mine is a good half inch.  If I push the screen forward and up with my poker, it snugs up...for a bit.  But comes right back down.  My screen gets red hot too...doesn't stop it from plugging, at the E and W edges first.  I bent the frame so much, to tighten it, that the screen itself is really dimpled by the cotter pins.  Doesn't help at all with the sag.  Comes right back as soon as the stove is heated. 

Yes, I have fly ash pulled up by my draft.  When I open the air before opening the door, everything really swirls around in there.  Am burning sugar maple, primarily, and get sparks when I open the door, flying around vigorously, even at the end of a burn with coals very low.  Just have too much draft.  Am going to stop opening the air much before opening the door...there is essentially no smoke in there at that point anyway.


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## Machria (Feb 27, 2013)

rideau said:


> Many people have had the screen sag. Look inside your stove, at the top rear where the screen touches the secondary burn plate. There can be a pretty big gap there. Mine is a good half inch. If I push the screen forward and up with my poker, it snugs up...for a bit. But comes right back down. My screen gets red hot too...doesn't stop it from plugging, at the E and W edges first. I bent the frame so much, to tighten it, that the screen itself is really dimpled by the cotter pins. Doesn't help at all with the sag. Comes right back as soon as the stove is heated.
> 
> Yes, I have fly ash pulled up by my draft. When I open the air before opening the door, everything really swirls around in there. Am burning sugar maple, primarily, and get sparks when I open the door, flying around vigorously, even at the end of a burn with coals very low. Just have too much draft. Am going to stop opening the air much before opening the door...there is essentially no smoke in there at that point anyway.


 

hmm....   I don't have or get either of those.  Before opening the door, I open air wide open for about 5 seconds, then unlock door and slowly open it up.  Nothing flys around at all, doesn't matter at what point of burn I'm in, or what I'm burning. 

My screen, the rear of my screen has a 90 degree bend in it if I recall (not lookign at it now).  I think I remember the last 1/2" of it bent up 90, where it then meets the top of the stove/2ndary plate snugly.  I'll double check tonight.


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## Todd 2 (Feb 27, 2013)

Rideau, I asked them about a pipe damper possibly and they asked me where I set the air, I told them most of the time closed to just a wisper open for a nice lazy flame and maby a little more open yet when its warmer out.
They said that seemed normal to them, but like you I wonder what it would do, not really wanting to put one in if you know what I mean but it might come to that. I still think that a tight fitting screen would do it !  That good draft is great for warmer shoulder season.    Still waiting on UPS, hopefully this evening, they have showed up as late as 7:30.

Another note : my yellow locust is really dry, it makes powder ash, the oak, elm and ash I burn is more around the 20% +/- range, the locust seems to ash over the cat the fastest but also is the hottest  (naturally)  Strange I thought it should be the opposite ?  thats where I feel the screen comes into play.

Michria, what is the length of your chimney ? class A length - stove to A, 90's 45's  sounds like its drafting right on.


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## fire_man (Feb 27, 2013)

I have a dinky 16 feet of insulated liner inside an exterior masonry chimney. My screen has sagged 3/4" and I still never had a clogged cat. I have had a clogged screen a couple times, but for some reason the cat never clogged.

It sounds like there is a correlation between chimney height and cat clogging. I think rideau said he has a really tall flue. I'm not sure what Todd2 and 3fordasho have.


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## rideau (Feb 27, 2013)

Todd, pretty sure Machria has single wall, which may not draft as strongly as double wall. 

Burning hotter probablymakes for greatest draft so most ash sucked up into the cat/pipe.  Doesn't surprise me. 

I resisted the damper for over a year...but I'm pretty sure I'll get much better results, so will say forget the appearance and nuisance and get one.  Will let you know how it contributes to the burn.  Priced the section of ultrablack with the damper today -$74.00 plus tax and shipping.  If it results in longer burns, more heat, lower flue temps and less ash in the cat, well worth it.  (I'm not expecting much!) Have about March 7th as earliest delivery date.  An waiting to hear from one more supplier to see if they have it in stock. 

I think a tight fitting screen is going to help, because there won't be the open path, but I have to look at my screen which gets pretty clogged and realize that the draft is pulling ash through the screen into the cat....don't know how much of the ash is stopped by the screen, but do know a lot is hitting it.  May be that most that hits it IS stopped, and what I am seeing in the cat is all stuff that is pulled through the opening near the secondary plate where the screen sags.  Won't know until the new screen is available.  Even if that stops the plugging problem, I know I clearly have a greater draft than many who are burning very successfully with he PH, and I know my flue temps are higher than I want, and I know I cannot get as slow a burn as I would like when it is really cold out, and I know that I am losing a lot of heat up the chimney because I can't slow the air down enough during cold weather to keep the air in the box for any length of time...so I expect to have better heating results with a damper. 

AS I have said several times, my draft was great - just about perfect - with the Fireview, which had that 90 degree exit bend at the rear exit, and was a few feet longer because of the rear exit.  Straight up with the PH I have too much draft.  May be in part the design of the stove/airflow in the stove/size of firebox, or may be entirely the loss of the 90 degree turn at rear exit.


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## rideau (Feb 27, 2013)

fire_man said:


> I have a dinky 16 feet of insulated liner inside an exterior masonry chimney. My screen has sagged 3/4" and I still never had a clogged cat. I have had a clogged screen a couple times, but for some reason the cat never clogged.
> 
> It sounds like there is a correlation between chimney height and cat clogging. I think rideau said he has a really tall flue. I'm not sure what Todd2 and 3fordasho have.


 
Yes.  Long internal double wall chimney, exposed location, high winds.


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## Todd 2 (Feb 27, 2013)

from the stove, 3 ft up, 3 ft straight back (Single wall) into clay lined block chimney w/ 22 ft of rap insulated ridged pipe straight up on outside wall. I guess that would be considered 25 ft or does one not count the 3 ft of vertical stove pipe ?
The clay liner is 7 x 10 1/2 so its in there snug with not alot of dead air space.


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## fire_man (Feb 27, 2013)

rideau said:


> They are also (or have) improved the attachment for the smoke shield at the loading door, but I am uncertain if there is a retrofit. Lorin is checking for me. *Mine comes loose and dangles, which is irritating when loading*.


 
Now that's an easy one. With your hoover-like draft TAKE THE DARN THING OUT! I have lousier draft and took mine out, all is well except in >45F temps.

I do get some smoke spillage at those higher outdoor temps, but I think with enough practice loading I can eliminate it.


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## fire_man (Feb 27, 2013)

Todd 2 said:


> from the stove, 3 ft up, 3 ft straight back (Single wall) into clay lined block chimney w/ 22 ft of rap insulated ridged pipe straight up on outside wall. I guess that would be considered 25 ft or does one not count the 3 ft of vertical stove pipe ?
> The clay liner is 7 x 10 1/2 so its in there snug with not alot of dead air space.


 
Sounds to me like the recipe for really good draft, so this is consistent with cat clogging ash.


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## Todd 2 (Feb 27, 2013)

fire_man said:


> Sounds to me like the recipe for really good draft, so this is consistent with cat clogging ash.


For the first month an a half replacing 2 of the warped old style cats they stayed really clean (the screen fit tight then) but after I put the new improved cat in and improved my 24-7 burning that is when the screen started sagging more and faster after every time re shaping it till i gave up on it and the ashy cat syndrome was at its worst.


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## rideau (Feb 27, 2013)

fire_man said:


> Now that's an easy one. With your hoover-like draft TAKE THE DARN THING OUT! I have lousier draft and took mine out, all is well except in >45F temps.
> 
> I do get some smoke spillage at those higher outdoor temps, but I think with enough practice loading I can eliminate it.


 
Umm... I asked Woodstock about removing it, because I felt the same way. They told me not to...so for the time being I won't.  Am awaiting the replacement, then we'll see.  But it surely is tempting.  I don't think I'd very often have a smoke problem.  Only, perhaps, when starting from cold AND having an issue so need to open the door before fire is established.  Seldom happens.  Usually load the box and don't open the door til down to coals and ready to reload.  The screen. especially when dangling, can be a pain then, but there is no smoke issue.


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## fire_man (Feb 27, 2013)

rideau said:


> Umm... I asked Woodstock about removing it, because I felt the same way. They told me not to...so for the time being I won't. Am awaiting the replacement, then we'll see. But it surely is tempting. I don't think I'd very often have a smoke problem. Only, perhaps, when starting from cold AND having an issue so need to open the door before fire is established. Seldom happens. Usually load the box and don't open the door til down to coals and ready to reload. The screen. especially when dangling, can be a pain then, but there is no smoke issue.


 

My guess is you were talking with one of the "play it by the book" types. I took mine off and I'm happy I did.


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## rideau (Feb 27, 2013)

Thanks, Tony.


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## Flamestead (Feb 27, 2013)

Another good draft / sagging screen / clogging cat here. (still better than the initial screen setup)

I suspect having a better fit for the screen would keep my cat going longer before needing to be cleaned. I do get ash flying around when the damper is wide open, and the Red Maple will spark/pop some when in a hot fire. I re-bend my screen each time I slow down enough to clean, but it seems to lose its shape more quickly now than it did initially.


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## rideau (Feb 27, 2013)

All these comments from PH owners  with the same problem I have makes me realize I should definitely go ahead and do the damper install now, so will do so as soon as I can get the unit, and post on my results.  If it takes care of the problem, it will be a simple solution that will be helpful for several of us.


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## Machria (Feb 28, 2013)

Todd 2 said:


> Michria, what is the length of your chimney ? class A length - stove to A, 90's 45's sounds like its drafting right on.


 
See the pics I posted above... I am top vented, with single wall heavy duty stove pipe for 38". I have an immediate 30 degree bend toward the rear, and another 30 to straighten it back out. I need the two 30's to get back about 4 or 5" to line up with the chimney box above. The connector box is 3' (38" to be exact) above the stove. Then I have 13' of tripple wall stainless Class A pipe inside an enclosed and insulated chase staight up. The last 2 feet are outside the roof, with a special Wind/Weather type cap (kind of like a vacu-cap).

I think my draft is perfect. If I recall, woodstock calls for a 16' chimney for the PH. Well, that's what I gave it! 



rideau said:


> All these comments from PH owners with the same problem I have makes me realize I should definitely go ahead and do the damper install now, so will do so as soon as I can get the unit, and post on my results. If it takes care of the problem, it will be a simple solution that will be helpful for several of us.


 
I'm not sure why you guys are even hesitating to install a damper. I want to install one, and I don't have any issues. I want one just so I can close the thing when I'm not buning. I actually don't understand why it's not standard and/or mandatory on ALL chimney installs. Just seems to make sense to have it there. Then of course there is the added benifit of having added damper control. I'm installing one as soon as I take my stove pipe apart to do my first cleaning at the end of season.


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## rideau (Feb 28, 2013)

I wanted to avoid installing a damper because I don't like the way a damper looks.  Also, a damper has to be removed every time the chimney is swept.  And a damper is an obstruction in the pipe: nice place for some creosote to deposit.  My initial install was simple, classic, attractive.  Threw great shadows.

The simple installation of a damper will somewhat restrict your draft.  If yours is perfect now, I would not add a damper.  You may have a less perfect burning situation if you do. 

Most of us don't need dampers.  With a good match between flue and stove, the stove is completely controllable with the air intakes.  Most of us are 24/7 burners, so we have no need to close off our flues in the winter to keep heat from going up the chimney.  In the summer, that's not an issue. 

My Fireview was absolutely controllable with my flue.  My Progress Hybrid has some issues.  So I'll get the damper. 

But, when one can, the best rule of thumb is KISS, in my opinion.


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## fire_man (Feb 28, 2013)

I agree with rideau: KISS. If you don't need it don't install it. It's an extra obstruction and extra pain when cleaning.

So that makes two of us with 16 foot chimneys (machria and me) with no swirly ash or cat clogs. Sounds like this stove is kind of fussy about having the right draft. I had problems before I insulated my liner, now it's fine.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 28, 2013)

Attached a pic of the cleaned and installed screen- looks like a good fit but it will sag about 1/4" along the back edge after a few heat cycles. I vacuumed the cat off, and used a vinegar /water mix sprayed through the cat, and then rinsed it with distilled water. (this was suggested by Woodstock, as the PH cat is too long to boil in a pan). Fired up the stove and it is burning good and the cat seems to be working... no smoke out the stack but I did notice the top of the stack is pretty dirty- suggesting the cat has not been doing it's job during previous burns... I guess for now I'll just have to clean both the cat and screen about every two weeks...

My flue set up is straight out the back of the stove, thru wall to a tee, then staight up 18' (or is it 21') enclosed in a insulated chase except for the top ~4'. Flue pipe is Class A 6" Selkirk supervent insulated double wall, with a short section of double wall connecter from stove to class A.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 28, 2013)

Update on the first burn after cat cleaning-  stove top temps rose to 400F much quicker than pre-clean cat burns, and flue temps sat right at 500f for the first part of the burn.. both signs the cat was working better than before... Since it was a cold start burn with no coals underneath the wood - after the top wood burnt down to coals the wood at the base just fueled the cat with smoke and little or no flames in the box.... but at that point the smoke smell became very notiicable to the point that my wife insisted on opening a  window....   which I did plus opened the air enough to get flames in the box.   I am starting to have thoughts of putting my 2nd fireview back in place of the PH  :-(


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## rideau (Feb 28, 2013)

Tim,
I don't have that problem with smoke.  Is that a regular for you?  Have you tried plugging the roll pins at the top back corners? 

Was your air intake closed all the way when the smoke smell got bad. or cracked open?  When you opened the air to get flames back, what were your temps, and did you get a good clean cat burn once you opened the air a bit?  Outside temps? 

Just trying to understand what is going on.  Wood is dry?  Mine is drafting too much, and I don't have any smoke issue, certainly not once the fire is established.  Unless the cat gets completely blocked...then things, understandably, just don't burn correctly.

Is the issue that in attempting to reduce draft so you won't clog the cat, you reduced too much and smouldered?


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## rideau (Feb 28, 2013)

Tim-

How much longer are you covered under warranty? 

If the Fireview would be better for you, go for it.  If this is a move you are contemplating because of the cat/smoke issue, can you wait a few weeks to see what happens when I put in a damper?  Be a shame to change if the PH is sized well for you and a damper will resolve our problems.  This stove will put out considerably more heta than a Fireview.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 28, 2013)

I've located the pins and done my best to plug them with stove cement.

The smoke issue comes and goes but obviously gets worse as the cat and screen start to plug up - this I can remediate by more frequent cleanings.
The smoke issue seems to increase when the air inlet is closed or almost closed and there is no flame in the box... but I have had the smell with very active flames in the box and a not all the way closed air inlet.  Sometimes it just occurs randomly or I have just not identified the combination of conditions that cause it.

Tonight the smell occured after the cat was engaged and the flames in the box died off because only the wood at the very bottom of the stove was actively outgassing (no coal bed underneath because this was a cold start)   The air inlet was slightly open (maybe 5 degrees open).
The stove top temp was 350-400f when I opened the air inlet a bit, and flue temps close to 500f.   Outside temps are 30f, I usually run this stove with the air inlet closed or close too it, but I close it down very slowly to try to maintain flame in the box,  If I shut it down quick and achieve all cat burn (no flame in box) I am just asking for smoke smell.

The wood should be very dry, the LEAST seasoned would be 3 years minimum split and stacked, and stored in a covered woodshed since last fall.

I don't ever experience a reversed draft situation, but there is negitive pressure in the house.  Maybe it's time to bring in more outside air.




rideau said:


> Tim,
> I don't have that problem with smoke. Is that a regular for you? Have you tried plugging the roll pins at the top back corners?
> 
> Was your air intake closed all the way when the smoke smell got bad. or cracked open? When you opened the air to get flames back, what were your temps, and did you get a good clean cat burn once you opened the air a bit? Outside temps?
> ...


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## 3fordasho (Feb 28, 2013)

rideau said:


> Tim-
> 
> How much longer are you covered under warranty?
> 
> If the Fireview would be better for you, go for it. If this is a move you are contemplating because of the cat/smoke issue, can you wait a few weeks to see what happens when I put in a damper? Be a shame to change if the PH is sized well for you and a damper will resolve our problems. This stove will put out considerably more heta than a Fireview.


 

I received the stove last Febuary.  The fireview is only better in that I never smell smoke in the house unless it's backpuffing and that is easy to solve.
My goals with the PH were to extend burn times, and reduce the amount of times I need to burn two stoves.  The PH has not really extended burn times, but overall temps in the house are 3-4degrees higher and I seldom need to burn both stoves.


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## Todd 2 (Feb 28, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> I received the stove last Febuary. The fireview is only better in that I never smell smoke in the house unless it's backpuffing and that is easy to solve.
> My goals with the PH were to extend burn times, and reduce the amount of times I need to burn two stoves. The PH has not really extended burn times, but overall temps in the house are 3-4degrees higher and I seldom need to burn both stoves.


I'm thinking of 2 fire views myself. This was my original plan but I got PH fever and just had to have one, lol
Not one complaint though when its operating proper, other than my basement is like south Florida trying to keep the upstairs heated.

One more thing Tim, running the PH & the FV the same avg temp how much more wood do you think the PH uses ?
Or any one else that has had both, Thanks


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## rideau (Feb 28, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> I received the stove last Febuary. The fireview is only better in that I never smell smoke in the house unless it's backpuffing and that is easy to solve.
> My goals with the PH were to extend burn times, and reduce the amount of times I need to burn two stoves. The PH has not really extended burn times, but overall temps in the house are 3-4degrees higher and I seldom need to burn both stoves.


That is at least i n part a success then.  Less wood and less work, and more heat.  I'm hoping the damper will take care of the other problem.


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## rideau (Mar 1, 2013)

Todd 2 said:


> I'm thinking of 2 fire views myself. This was my original plan but I got PH fever and just had to have one, lol
> Not one complaint though when its operating proper, other than my basement is like south Florida trying to keep the upstairs heated.
> 
> One more thing Tim, running the PH & the FV the same avg temp how much more wood do you think the PH uses ?
> Or any one else that has had both, Thanks


 
I have had both stoves.  I don't use more wood with the PH, but I do get significantly more heat.  Did a very unscientific experiment earlier this winter.  Have a circular rack that holds enough ironwood to heat 2 1/2 days on average with the Fireview.  During the recent cold spell, I loaded it up with sugar maple (significantly lower BTU), large splits, to see how long the rack would last.  Got just about three days out of it.  Which confirmed my feeling that I was not using more wood.  But I pushed the Fireview a bit more than I do the PH, because it was really too small for my home.  Cold weather I tried to keep stovetop near 550 on the Fireview.  Am more like 450 on the PH, but get more heat.  Thanks to the much larger glass, the near Rumford angle on the secondary plate, and the more efficient hybrid design.  And this, in a scenario where I know I am loosing a lot of heat up the chimney.  So things should only get better.


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## HollowHill (Mar 1, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> I've located the pins and done my best to plug them with stove cement.
> 
> 
> I don't ever experience a reversed draft situation, but there is negitive pressure in the house. Maybe it's time to bring in more outside air.


 
I have the smoke issue as well, your description of when it occurs matches mine.  However, my house is drafty enough to rival a wind tunnel, I have plenty of outside air and positive pressure.  So, I'm not sure how much you would gain by bringing in more outside air.


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## 3fordasho (Mar 1, 2013)

My house was build in 1880's. Plenty of leaks mainly around the old stone foundation into the basement. The rest I've improved greatly by adding insulation/windows ie the usuall stuff to the point that it can be heated with about 2.5-3 cords per season. The only time I've experienced reversed draft is when I started the stove and the attic hatch was open -that said, when I cracked a window last night it was amazing how much air was sucking in with the window cracked a 1/2". I'll leave that window cracked open for the next several reloads to see if it has any effect. I definately do not have positive pressure in the house with two 6" flues pulling air out and no fresh air intakes. Thankfully the rest of the exhausts in the house (gas furnace/water heater) are direct vent through side walls so they are not constantly pulling air out like a vertical vent does.




HollowHill said:


> I have the smoke issue as well, your description of when it occurs matches mine. However, my house is drafty enough to rival a wind tunnel, I have plenty of outside air and positive pressure. So, I'm not sure how much you would gain by bringing in more outside air.


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## 3fordasho (Mar 1, 2013)

It uses more simply because it holds more and with my reload schedule dictated by my work schedule I need to load it about 80% ful to get 8-10 hr burns.That said the house is warmer this year by about 3-4 degrees and overall wood consumption seems to still be at 2.5- 3 cords for the season - maybe up slightly but not real noticable. To maintain the same average inside temps as I had with the fireview, I would have to be home more, load the PH more often but with smaller amounts of wood.   With the PH burning, I have less of a need to run both stoves at the same time - the only conditions that dictate two stoves fired are 0f or less and/or windy conditions.




Todd 2 said:


> I'm thinking of 2 fire views myself. This was my original plan but I got PH fever and just had to have one, lol
> Not one complaint though when its operating proper, other than my basement is like south Florida trying to keep the upstairs heated.
> 
> One more thing Tim, running the PH & the FV the same avg temp how much more wood do you think the PH uses ?
> Or any one else that has had both, Thanks


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## fire_man (Mar 1, 2013)

3fordasho

Probably a dumb question, but have you stuck your nose all over the stove sniffing for the leak? Even at the air inlet plates? The door? The lid? The flue pipes? This just sounds so bad it should be easier to pinpoint the source. What about shutting the lights and shining a bright flashlight around the stove - sometimes that shows a smoke trail.

I'm just thinking out loud - kind of.


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## Todd 2 (Mar 1, 2013)

The new screen, thicker wire, bigger holes, a 5/32 drill bit butt fits snug in the holes, stainless steel also.
It is a good bit stiffer ???  will see what happens.


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## rideau (Mar 1, 2013)

For Tim, Flamestead, Warm in Iowa and Todd2: (and anyone else who has a problem with clogging Cat in a PH):

I was reading the post asking about experience with the ashpan, and It occurred to me we should rule this out as a factor affecting ash being pulled out of the firebox.  I don't expect there to be a correlation, but lets be certain. 

Do you have ashpans?

I don't. 

I can envision an ash pan moderating the problem of fine ash being pulled up by the draft, because I'd expect a lot of the fine ash to fall through the grate into the ashpan and be far less likely to be pulled up into the firebox and back through the sagging screen.  But I'd be really surprised to find a 100% correlation...surprised and unhappy, because I don't want an ashpan.


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## Todd 2 (Mar 1, 2013)

No ash pan here, good thought !


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## Waulie (Mar 1, 2013)

I have no ash pan and no clogging cat issue for what it's worth.  My screen has also been sagging for quite a while and I haven't fixed it.  I'll pull the cat again next warm temps and see but I'd be surprised to find much of anything like last time.


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## fire_man (Mar 1, 2013)

I have the heavier screen. It never clogs, and sags much less than the thin screen. I have reformed it a few times. I don't think it's a permanent solution, but it's the best one so far.

I didn't know it was stainless steel. the old one was Inconel. According to Wikipedia:   Inconel retains strength over a wide temperature range, attractive for high temperature applications where aluminum and steel would succumb to creep as a result of thermally-induced crystal vacancies (see Arrhenius equation).


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## Flamestead (Mar 1, 2013)

I do have an ash pan.

Here's my cat after 2 weeks of continual burning



And the screen...


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## 3fordasho (Mar 1, 2013)

I have done the sniff test -  I have a left door and the odor is just above the door on the left side.  It could be the door gasket itself or the cooktop gasket on the left side.  One of the door gaskets I replaced had brown color staining the white gasket which tells me smoke was getting thru it at that location. I'm on my third or fourth door gasket but the smell always comes back.

As far as the cat build up - woodstock got back to me to say they are looking at the issue for a handful of people that are having the problem.  Their email said strong draft and or burning biobricks / lots of bark may contribute to the issue.

For the person who asked about the ash pan option - I do not have it.









fire_man said:


> 3fordasho
> 
> Probably a dumb question, but have you stuck your nose all over the stove sniffing for the leak? Even at the air inlet plates? The door? The lid? The flue pipes? This just sounds so bad it should be easier to pinpoint the source. What about shutting the lights and shining a bright flashlight around the stove - sometimes that shows a smoke trail.
> 
> I'm just thinking out loud - kind of.


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## Slow1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I had the smoke smell.  (left side door, top vent)  Last Sunday I re-gasketed with some grey wide gasket that WS sent me.  I didn't use the furnace cement they sent; rather I used some rutland gasket cement as I figured it would be a bit less solid, but that may have been a false impression.  Anyway - before I did the gasket I noticed that the frame of the door that contacts the gasket seemed to be pushing against a glob of cement in the corner (closest to the hinge).  I was very careful to not let this happen again and pushed the gasket into the corner.

Now we're about 5 days into burning and I haven't had any smoke smell that I can detect from that area.  I hesitate to say problem solved as I know the gasket will continue to compress as time goes on, but I originally had the smell very early - noticed it as soon as the burn-in stink was gone (that masks a lot of smells I'm sure!).  This convinces me that the smell is related to the door gasket in some way (not pins inside).  I will be happy if I can get a couple months of no smell, but if it comes back I think the two-gaskets layered as someone suggested may be my next plan.  I'm half tempted to try putting a gasket on the frame of the stove and see how that works out (would be a pain for loading I suppose if it came loose).


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## fire_man (Mar 1, 2013)

I believe Slow1 and 3Ford have definitely identified a source of the smoke: door gasket, but I can't figure out how the smoke can escape that way. Normally when there is a leak, it sucks air *into* the stove. I always figured the black tarry stuff that always seemed to form near my fireview's door was from the cooler area near a leaky door gasket, but it never smelled like smoke. My old VC Resolute had a porous steel mesh griddle lid gasket that was intended to suck a slight amount of air into the stove (at least that's what I have heard) and it never smelled.

What happens if you disengage the bypass after you start smelling the smoke - does the draft improve and the smell go away? If you open the air up a little, does the smell go away?


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## rideau (Mar 1, 2013)

SO:

Todd 2, 3fordasho and I do not have ash pans. Our cats get completely clogged.
Addendum:  Warm in Iowa, cat clogs somewhat, cleans every 2 weeks, no ashpan.  Man in upstate NY, short flue, poor draft, no ashpan, cat clogs. 

Flamestead does have an ashpan. He just posted a pic of his cat after two weeks of burning. It has build up, but nothing like mine, which can get almost completely clogged in that much time.

I'm not burning biobricks or bark, but I do have a very strong draft (referring to 3fordasho's mention of Woodstock e-mail).


It would be of interest to hear from others with very tall internal chimneys, especially those living in colder climates: Do you have excessive draft, limiting ability to close down for a slow cat burn in very cold weather, and/or do you have a problem with your cat clogging?

I'm going to call Woodstock and see if they are in a position to run a test with their PH and see: if they remove their ashpan& have a tall stack, will their cat clog? May be that the temps are
moderating enough now so that the problem is abating.

Addendum:  Starting to think the ashpan may be a factor.

If there is no further information forthcoming about this, and if installation of a damper in my pipe does not solve my cat clogging problem, then I guess my next step next year is to try an ashpan. Ugh.


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## Boiler74 (Mar 2, 2013)

I have been battling a smoke smell since almost the time I got my PH installed.  At first I thought it was the cooktop - my first top was warped along the front edge, and I thought that was the problem.  It failed the dollar bill test miserably.  New top and gasket helped, but the smell was still there.  So, with Lorin's advice, I used a towel and narrowed the smell down to the door side of the stove, not the top.  So, I redid the door gasket, but it didn't help.  So I sought Lorin's advice again.  WS is theorizing that the smell is coming from where the door frame meets the steel shell of the stove.  And they have been testing a sealant to seal up this leak.  

I think, but I'm not sure, that they are talking about the joint where the door frame meets the fireback/secondary tubes.  You know that little triangle on the top of the door, hinge side.  The triangle that makes the opening not square.  I seem to get a lot of build up right there, and I think that little opening is creating a little chimney.  I know it's counter-intuitive, but if smoke/odors get into that gap, then they can work upward, either exiting around the top of the door frame or at the very top of the door side, coming out between the exterior soapstone and the top.  Take a towel and hold it against the union between the side and the stop, above the door.  The smell goes away for me.

I do not think it's the door gasket.  I bought some gasket tape.... flat gasket material.  I draped it over the hinge side gasket, and looped it around the back of the door so I could hold it tight to the gasket and shut the door.  Then after the door was shut (took some pushing) I stuffed the rest of the 6' gasket in the gap between the door and the frame.  All around the door.  Did this multiple times, and it didn't fix the smell.

So, I'm eagerly awaiting Lorin's email this week.  Hopefully the new sealant they are testing will be approved and they will ship out.  If I can't get this issue resolved before the end of the heating season, the stove is going back.  The smoke smell is playing havoc with my sinuses.

And before you ask..... I do have an ashpan.  I back vent into an insulated chimney liner going into an exterior masonry flu via a T in my firebox.  The liner is right at 20'.  I also have an OAK.  My house is pretty tight, so I've burned with a window cracked, window closed, HVAC fan on and off, OAK hooked up and not.  Nothing fixes the smoke smell.

I have been getting 8-10 hour burns with pine, so I'm happy with burn times considering it's pine.  I love the stove, and don't want to send it back.  But I also can't live all winter with sinus issues.

As for my CAT and screen, no issues at all.  I've checked the CAT twice and didn't even have to clean it.  I have brushed the screen off a few times.  I don't think I have an incredible draft like some on here.  Before reloads, when I open the air, ash doesn't swirl around like other have described.  I actually have a small problem with ash coming out the door when I open to reload and stir the coals.  Not much, but enough to notice.  I kind of wonder if this isn't a result of the pine I'm burning, creating finer ash?  (pine is under 20%, and I cleaned the flu after my first month's burning and only got a cup of very fine powder)


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## 3fordasho (Mar 2, 2013)

Josh,

Please keep us updated on the sealant. I think your onto something here. I've often thought how can it be the door gasket after trying several different gaskets. One thing that is confusing is the randomness of the smell occurance- I wonder if it has something to do with positioning of the wood in the firebox and how it is outgassing at the time. I've also had the thought that even though the stove should be trying to suck air in were ever it can, with all the nooks and crannys in a stove who knows how the smoke flows around inside it and in certain spots it could work it's way out even though the draft pressure should not allow it.

The smell is my biggest issue with the stove, when it is bad it bothers my sinuses as well. It also prevents me from closing the stove down to get the burn times I would like at a lower heat output.

The cat build up I can deal with and I suspect it might change when I get out of the oak tops I am currently burning (lots of bark- not much heartwood)






Boiler74 said:


> I have been battling a smoke smell since almost the time I got my PH installed. At first I thought it was the cooktop - my first top was warped along the front edge, and I thought that was the problem. It failed the dollar bill test miserably. New top and gasket helped, but the smell was still there. So, with Lorin's advice, I used a towel and narrowed the smell down to the door side of the stove, not the top. So, I redid the door gasket, but it didn't help. So I sought Lorin's advice again. WS is theorizing that the smell is coming from where the door frame meets the steel shell of the stove. And they have been testing a sealant to seal up this leak.
> 
> I think, but I'm not sure, that they are talking about the joint where the door frame meets the fireback/secondary tubes. You know that little triangle on the top of the door, hinge side. The triangle that makes the opening not square. I seem to get a lot of build up right there, and I think that little opening is creating a little chimney. I know it's counter-intuitive, but if smoke/odors get into that gap, then they can work upward, either exiting around the top of the door frame or at the very top of the door side, coming out between the exterior soapstone and the top. Take a towel and hold it against the union between the side and the stop, above the door. The smell goes away for me.
> 
> ...


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## rideau (Mar 2, 2013)

Interesting post, Josh, and thanks for it.  Thanks also for flue length and ash pan info. 

I suppose rear  exit  versus top flue vent followed by pipe straight out through the roof could also be a factor  in preventing cat clog, since it adds a 90 degree.

It may be that when all five factors are present (no ash pan, top vent, long run, internal chimney, and cold climate), you are likely to have a cat clogging problem. 

Easy to add a damper, easy to add an ash pan.  Pain to change the venting since it moves the stove out into the room, and changes all aspects of the room as a consequence.  Cold climate, nothing you can do about it. Internal chimney, nothing you are going to do about it. 

It is interesting how some have such an issue with smoke smell, while others don't.  Wonder why that is?  And at least one person has both problems, so strong draft definitely doesn't stop the smoke problem.  Would really like to figure out WHY some are experiencing it, and not others. 

I will get a very minor smoke smell from time to time, mostly when the cat is clogged but engaged.  I figure then the smoke is just finding the path of least resistance out of the stove, so any small opening (like the roll pin hole) could allow some smoke emission.  My smoke smell does not occur often enough, nor is it severe enough,  to cause me to try to resolve it.  It's not as bad as an open fireplace by a long shot.  Just occasionally enough to make me aware there is a fire burning in the house.  Smoke alarms and CO monitor have never registered any problem. 

I checked my door gasket recently (original issue, early stove), and I can't get a dollar bill out when I close it in the door, so I'm definitely not leaking smoke there.  My original gasket has been perfect so far. 

I've never noticed any build up by the top back of the door.  I believe you mean of creosote inside the stove? (Though that is near the area where I see the fire burn brightly early on ---upper right rear.  Lately have been believing that is caused by the roll pin hole.)   Next time stove is cold I'll have to shine a flashlight and look through the window.  A bit hard to see there.


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## Boiler74 (Mar 2, 2013)

I should have also mentioned that when I put a new gasket on the cooktop I also reached back and plugged (or think I did) the roll pins. I'm tall with long fingers, but not fat hands. So I could reach them pretty easy. 

Here's the door on the top hinge side. See the build up?


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## Boiler74 (Mar 2, 2013)

Sorry it's not oriented right. Don't know how to fix on my ipad.


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## rideau (Mar 2, 2013)

Yep, I see the creosote!

Thanks.

Didn't realize you meant on the door....


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## Todd 2 (Mar 2, 2013)

I have found another issue with my PH, only have 4 months use on it and it may have been discussed prior ? 
My air control has been a little loose from the start so I took the back heat shield off to adjust it (the allen screw lock rings) and was checking things out with a flash light and If you look into the center air cavity the stainless plate is warped, you can see light through it with the flashlight inside the fire box and some of the furnace cement sealer is breaking loose/out around it, Not sure yet what this part of the air feed does yet but I'm going to study it more tonight. Pics dont show it well hard to get a shot of it with out taking apart.
Any one else seen this, wonder if it affects anything ??? It don't show at this angle but the gap is about an 1/8" humped across from side to side with the flat gasket just laying in there loose.


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## fire_man (Mar 2, 2013)

Todd 2 I don't remember seeing a gasket in there. I can't imagine it gets hot enough in that spot to warp the plate. I'll be curious what you find out - certainly give WS a call.


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## chipsoflyin (Mar 3, 2013)

I got the same deal, leaks air into the firebox, when the stove is hot enough we can see small secondary flame where the air leak is. Looks like some rope gasket outta take care of it.


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## fire_man (Mar 3, 2013)

Todd2 are you referring to exterior moveable air plate? After reading chipsoflyin I'm beginning to wonder...


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## Todd 2 (Mar 3, 2013)

fire_man said:


> Todd2 are you referring to exterior moveable air plate? After reading chipsoflyin I'm beginning to wonder...


Yes, the air damper in the back, open it and look about 2" past it where the furnace cement seems start.
It looks like it is the seem to the lower lip of secondary plate, the one with the air holes.
You will not see gasket from this side unless the cement is cracked and broke loose, you can see the gasket from the inside of the fire box. I dont think this would lead to a smoke smell because it is always pulling air in. it does give a secondary flame when the fire is just right by the back of the fire box like Chips said. I think I remember someone else posting about this where they thought the bent it up putting wood in, it is a heat warp and what Chips said looks like some thicker gasket should take care of it. I'm gonna call Monday about what to do


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## fire_man (Mar 3, 2013)

Todd 

I think they will tell you to tuck an additional rope gasket in there to seal the gap. The leak causes a hot spot on the plate from the flame.


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## chipsoflyin (Mar 3, 2013)

That's exactly what mine looks like.


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## WarmInIowa (Mar 3, 2013)

I have the smoke smell and do NOT have an ash pan.  I also tend to get the cat full of ash every couple weeks.  Not as bad as some of these pics, but as mentioned earlier, I vac it every two weeks or so after it burns down for a half day so it isn't so hot.

Regarding draft, mine is poor; half the time not good enough, so that is not an issue for me.  I am running a mix of wood and some of it is oak which is one season dried - not dry enough.  So I contribute it to this for me.  I didn't notice this as an issue last year when I had more dry wood.  Also, as mentioned above, bark is not a good idea.  I used some 1 year old dried bark as kindling and it plugged the screen in one shot. Not doing that any more.

I feel confindent the smoke smell is from the door area.  I have taken the door frame off and looked at the area behind the door; it doesn't look too bad and there is no reason to think the smell is coming from that area.  I have replaced the door gasket about 4 times and each time the smell goes away for at least a few weeks then slowly comes back until it is bad enough that I take the door off and replace the gasket.  I did this 3 weeks ago and it is pretty decent right now. 

I too have used a towel to block off areas of the stove to pin point the problem area - it is the top rear of the door for my stove.  Having said that; I don't know how to solve the problem but it needs to be fixed as it is not tolerable when it gets bad.


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## rideau (Mar 3, 2013)

Re Ashpan to date: 

Warm In Iowa and a man upstate NY (info from Woodstock) both have poor draft, no ashpan, and a cat clogging problem.
Flamestead has an ashpan, tall chimney, some clogging problem.
Three others of us have strong draft, tall chimney, no ashpan and cat clogging problem. 

I'm beginning to think the ashpan may be a factor in cat clogging.  Still a very small sample. 


But I can see where it would make sense.  If you have an ashpan, when you rake your coals forward after each burn, the loose fly ash will fall into the ashpan, where it is far less likely to be swept around by the air, and carried up behind the sagging screen and into the path of the cat.  Far less fly ash in the box most of the time.


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## Todd 2 (Mar 3, 2013)

Door gasket issue, wonder if the graphite impregnated gasket (the dark gray kind) would hold up better ?
That is what is on the PE and it takes alot of heat abuse and holds up. I have seen it in round stock sizes.


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## fire_man (Mar 4, 2013)

Rideau

Just for the record, (and at the expense of jinxing myself) I do not have an ash pan and I do not have a cat clogging problem. I have decent draft (16 foot insulated 6" SS liner).

I wonder if it's more about type of wood being burned? My screen clogged once after 1 load of damp Cottonwood, which has bark as thick as some splits, and the wood makes very fine ash.


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## rideau (Mar 4, 2013)

fire_man said:


> Rideau
> 
> Just for the record, (and at the expense of jinxing myself) I do not have an ash pan and I do not have a cat clogging problem. I have decent draft (16 foot insulated 6" SS liner).
> 
> I wonder if it's more about type of wood being burned? My screen clogged once after 1 load of damp Cottonwood, which has bark as thick as some splits, and the wood makes very fine ash.


 
Thanks, Tony.

Doubt it's the wood.  I was burning primarily sugar maple, recently switched to ironwood/beech mix.  Wood is well seasoned.  Same seasoning as in the past.  I do let the coals burn down to ash.  Clean the stove about once a week. 

DId not have this problem last year, or during the shoulder season.  Was burning the same wood during the shoulder season.  No cat problem until December.  It's not a big deal, just a pain, and I'd like to resolve it.

Another thing I can do is to check the cat before emptying the firebox.  I always do it after, so fly ash may gett pulled up by the open air supply while I am emptying the box.  If it is clear before I ampty, then I'll check it again after I empty the ashes.  I am not aware of an ash problem while emptying, certainly don't get it in the room.  But maybe I do stir up a lot that go up the chimney.

How often do you clean your firebox?  Keep a fair amount of ash in there?  do you see fly ash flying around?  I sometimes get it sitting on my window.  Then it blows off.  Think the strong draft during cold weather is doing it, but am really starting to thing that  the lack of  ash pan contributes significantly, by allowing there to be a lot of fly ash present when the swirling occurs.  One person with no ashpan, a short chimney/lack of draft reported a clogging cat and a situation where fly ash sometimes comes out the door when he opens the door, so again for some reason ash flying around a lot in the stove.


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## fire_man (Mar 4, 2013)

Rideau

I clean my firebox probably about 1-2 times a week and sometimes have 2-3 inches of ash in there. I do not see ash flying around while it's burning, only when I empty the ashes. What bugs me is you were ok (no clogged cat) last year, not ok this year, with the same wood and same draft setup. What the heck has changed? The screen may be?

I always bypass the cat when emptying ash.


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## Machria (Mar 6, 2013)

*Regarding clogging:*
I also have an* Ashpan*, and NO clogs of the screen or cat. I took a quick peak of my CAT last night, it looks like it just came out of a box. Abosolutely NOTHING on it, and absolutely NOTHING on my screen. As previously noted, I also keep the box very clean, I rake almost ALL the ashes (about 90% or 95%) out of the box before reloading. Then I push all the hot coals that did not fall thru the grate and the little bit of ash to the front half of stove. If found I get better burns (longer, hotter) with very little ash left in there on reload.

I'm burning a mix of Maple, Oak, Pine, Cotton and a few pices of cedar, all split between 1 year ago.


*Smoke smell:*


Boiler74 said:


> I have been battling a smoke smell since almost the time I got my PH installed. At first I thought it was the cooktop - my first top was warped along the front edge, and I thought that was the problem. It failed the dollar bill test miserably. New top and gasket helped, but the smell was still there. So, with Lorin's advice, I used a towel and narrowed the smell down to the door side of the stove, not the top. So, I redid the door gasket, but it didn't help. So I sought Lorin's advice again. WS is theorizing that the smell is coming from where the door frame meets the steel shell of the stove. And they have been testing a sealant to seal up this leak.
> 
> I think, but I'm not sure, that they are talking about the joint where the door frame meets the fireback/secondary tubes. You know that little triangle on the top of the door, hinge side. The triangle that makes the opening not square. I seem to get a lot of build up right there, and I think that little opening is creating a little chimney. I know it's counter-intuitive, but if smoke/odors get into that gap, then they can work upward, either exiting around the top of the door frame or at the very top of the door side, coming out between the exterior soapstone and the top. Take a towel and hold it against the union between the side and the stop, above the door. The smell goes away for me.
> 
> ...


 
VERY interesting! And makes ALOT of sense. I'd put my money down on this being the fix/issue. We all seem to smell the smoke frm the top rear of door (regardless of Right or Left door), and many have changed the door gaskets to no avail, many a few times, so I think we can rule out the gasket. My door gasket looks perfect, it's white and has no marking or stains anywhere on it. It also seems tight, striagh with no bulges or low spots..., so I would find it hard to believe that is the issue. I also noticed it tends to be stronger when the stove is VERY hot. The hotter the stove, the more smell I get. That would be consistent with some possible "outward pressure" in the stove in certain areas/corners. Heat expands air, so even though the stove is sucking in air, the high heat can also create outward pressure in small time slices. That could be long enough to push a bit of smoke smell out a seam, before it is sucked back in and up the chimney...

Interesting you guys are mentioning sinus issues. I have been stuffed up for a month or 2, and have wondered why, I'm not really sick, no cold symptoms. I wonder if the small amount of smoke smell is contributing? hmmmmmm....


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## Machria (Mar 6, 2013)

Another thought on the clogging, how do you guys that have clogging issues cold start your PH?   Do you use kindling?  A fire starter?   Both?  Paper?  Fat wood?   A lot of small stuff piled up? ........?

Maybe there is a connection between the way you cold start and clogging....?


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## rideau (Mar 6, 2013)

Machria said:


> Another thought on the clogging, how do you guys that have clogging issues cold start your PH? Do you use kindling? A fire starter? Both? Paper? Fat wood? A lot of small stuff piled up? ........?
> 
> Maybe there is a connection between the way you cold start and clogging....?


 
Don't think so.  Very seldom cold start.  Use a super cedar.  Have ever since the clogging issue started.  I had another thought about it today.  Am going to try something else.  If it works I will post.  Is going to take a good week to set up the experiment, then a week or two to know if it is working.  Don't use fatwood.  Hardly ever (maybe twice this year) use newsprint.  Didn't use any twigs at all for about two months.  Used lots of twigs and a fair amount of newsprint last year without this severe clogging problem.  My screen clogged last year, not so much my cat.


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## Machria (Mar 7, 2013)

I looked a bit last night at what Boiler74 was referring to, that small triangle area at top/back of door.  I was only able to view it thru the front glass because I had a very hot fire going with 60 MPH winds really pullin on the draft...   but I can see some creosote build-up above and behind that triangle area.  There looks to be a seam back there, no necassarily associated with the door or door frame, it looks more like a seam between a piece of soapstone and cast iron/steal.  There is a small gap back there, and I can't see from the front glass with a fie going if it is sealed or not.  But there is definitely a bit of creo built up back there, and there is none anywhere else in my box.  Interesting, I think we/he are on to something.....


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## Boiler74 (Mar 7, 2013)

Machria said:


> I looked a bit last night at what Boiler74 was referring to, that small triangle area at top/back of door. I was only able to view it thru the front glass because I had a very hot fire going with 60 MPH winds really pullin on the draft... but I can see some creosote build-up above and behind that triangle area. There looks to be a seam back there, no necassarily associated with the door or door frame, it looks more like a seam between a piece of soapstone and cast iron/steal. There is a small gap back there, and I can't see from the front glass with a fie going if it is sealed or not. But there is definitely a bit of creo built up back there, and there is none anywhere else in my box. Interesting, I think we/he are on to something.....


 
The door frame is attached to the steel firebox, so the seam you are seeing is probably between those two things.  I'll be taking it apart next week, so I'll try to take some pictures.  But if you look at the door frame, you will see two threaded holes under the hinge.  I think that there are bolts threaded into those holes from the inside.  So, I theorize you take the door off, remove those bolts from the inside, and swing the frame out toward you.  The side opposite the hinge looks like it has a lip under the front corner.  I'm not sure if the stone above the door frame is held in place by the door frame itself. Anyway, I think there is some sort of seal under the door frame, but according to Lorin, some stoves have come back to Woodstock with staining under that soapstone piece above the door frame.  And the stoves came back because of the smell.  Sooo, the seal under the door frame must not be working for those of us with the door side smell.  They are sending me something called Res-Bond to try.  I guess they've been testing it and are impressed with it.

Josh


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## fire_man (Mar 7, 2013)

Interesting. I got some Resbond for the gap in the Fireback. Sounds like good stuff - I checked it out on the Cotronics website.


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## HollowHill (Mar 7, 2013)

Boiler74 said:


> The door frame is attached to the steel firebox, so the seam you are seeing is probably between those two things. I'll be taking it apart next week, so I'll try to take some pictures. But if you look at the door frame, you will see two threaded holes under the hinge. I think that there are bolts threaded into those holes from the inside. So, I theorize you take the door off, remove those bolts from the inside, and swing the frame out toward you. The side opposite the hinge looks like it has a lip under the front corner. I'm not sure if the stone above the door frame is held in place by the door frame itself. Anyway, I think there is some sort of seal under the door frame, but according to Lorin, some stoves have come back to Woodstock with staining under that soapstone piece above the door frame. And the stoves came back because of the smell. Sooo, the seal under the door frame must not be working for those of us with the door side smell. They are sending me something called Res-Bond to try. I guess they've been testing it and are impressed with it.
> 
> Josh


 
Wow!  Let us know how it works and what you have to do to install it.  Boy would I like to get rid of that smell...


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## Machria (Mar 9, 2013)

My cat after 3 weeks of 24x7 burning....    Not a thing on it.


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## rideau (Mar 9, 2013)

I've never had a thing on that side of it either.


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## Machria (Mar 9, 2013)

rideau said:


> I've never had a thing on that side of it either.



That's flipped over.  .  Both sides look the same.


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## rideau (Mar 9, 2013)

Good.


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## fire_man (Mar 9, 2013)

rideau said:


> Thanks, Tony.
> 
> Another thing I can do is to check the cat before emptying the firebox. I always do it after, so *fly ash may gett pulled up by the open air supply while I am emptying the box*. If it is clear before I ampty, then I'll check it again after I empty the ashes. I am not aware of an ash problem while emptying, certainly don't get it in the room. But maybe I do stir up a lot that go up the chimney.


 
rideau

Don't you bypass the cat when emptying the box?  I'm not sure what you are saying here. You should bypass when stirring the ashes. I think the best think you can do is try raking the coals after each fire and eliminate as much ash possible for a week or so. See if the clogging is eliminated. Seems machria does this using the ash pan and has a really clean cat. Looks like 24/7 burning is done for the next week/year in North East MA.


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## rideau (Mar 9, 2013)

fire_man said:


> rideau
> 
> Don't you bypass the cat when emptying the box? I'm not sure what you are saying here. You should bypass when stirring the ashes. I think the best think you can do is try raking the coals after each fire and eliminate as much ash possible for a week or so. See if the clogging is eliminated. Seems machria does this using the ash pan and has a really clean cat. Looks like 24/7 burning is done for the next week/year in North East MA.


 
Yes. Tony, you're right.  Someone picked up on this before.  I was being stupid, it is bypassed then.  It's just general fly ash blowing around with the strong draft when the stove is operating in cold weather, I expect.  And, I could indeed try that.  Have thought of it.  But I'm going to try the damper first, because that's not acceptable to me as a lonmg term was to deal with a problem.  I want to fix the problem, which I really am convinced is my draft.


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## alex johnson (Mar 9, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> Couple questions for other PH owners- How often are you cleaning your cat? Last night I noticed more smoke smell (not from reloading) and noticed the flames were really dying after closing the bypass... a sure sign the cat is getting plugged with fly ash. It's only been a month or less since I last cleaned it and it was plugged then from a short last season (installed stove last Feb) I do have the new screen set up and I clean that everytime I remove ash from the stove. Also I rarely see stove top temps 400f or over- is that normal or are these signs the cat is not working correctly? I don't see smoke from the chimney but the cat also likes the stall easily, I must maintain 400F flue temps or it will stall and I will see smoke. The cat in the fireview has never plugged up this easily or quickly. The wood is not an issue - split and dryed for at least 3 years, pulled from a covered wood shed. The cat is the original shipped with the stove, but only about a year old now.
> 
> Smoke smell (not a reloading/door open issue)- I've replaced the door gasket several times, and it seems better everytime I do it but it does not last - either the gasket relaxes or it's coming from somewhere else and I just think it's better after replacing the gasket. A partially plugged screen or cat makes it much worse so I will be checking those everytime I clean out the ash from the firebox. Woodstock suggested keeping more flame in the box and not to shut the stove all the way down (no flame). I've been following this recommendation and while it does help I've had several times the smell was present and there was plenty of flame in the box. Looking for suggestions here, maybe need to plug some roll pins as mentioned in another thread?


Just a thought, could the catalyst not have the correct amount of platinum, and such metals on it. I could see this causing such problems.


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## alex johnson (Mar 9, 2013)

rideau said:


> I just went out to check..in sweatshirt and a light pair of garden gloves since I was just going to take a quick look at the chimney. Artan (Wheaten) slipped out with me and thought we were going for a walk, so we did...down the road, where I picked up a couple of 3 inch branches I had pulled to the side of the road, and carted them home. OMG! It's cold out there. My fingers are freezing.
> 
> My flue temp is 540, my stovetop on the cast next to the verticle exit is 330, and I DO have some smoke coming out of the chimney. Good fire going in the box too, now 45 minutes into the burn, which doesn't happen with a regular start up. The fire is relaly active now, glass clean, etc. Am going to pop outside (without Artan!) and see what the chimney is doing.
> 
> ...


I seen were a guy,  was using lava rocks, in replacement of catalytic elements. Seen his videos on youtube, it worked for waht I could see.


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## Todd 2 (Mar 9, 2013)

alex johnson said:


> Just a thought, could the catalyst not have the correct amount of platinum, and such metals on it. I could see this causing such problems.


Hi alex, its not the cat itself plugging up inside of it, it is the build up of what looks like fly ash on the face of the cells, surface caping the cells off to restrict flow, brushes off like powder super easy with no sticking to the cat. Sorta like a air filter with a dirty surface and clean vains.


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## Slow1 (Mar 9, 2013)

alex johnson said:


> I seen were a guy, was using lava rocks, in replacement of catalytic elements. Seen his videos on youtube, it worked for waht I could see.


 
Hmm... better call WS and suggest they get right on it, I'm sure they will


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## Machria (Apr 1, 2013)

Boiler74 said:


> The door frame is attached to the steel firebox, so the seam you are seeing is probably between those two things. I'll be taking it apart next week, so I'll try to take some pictures. But if you look at the door frame, you will see two threaded holes under the hinge. I think that there are bolts threaded into those holes from the inside. So, I theorize you take the door off, remove those bolts from the inside, and swing the frame out toward you. The side opposite the hinge looks like it has a lip under the front corner. I'm not sure if the stone above the door frame is held in place by the door frame itself. Anyway, I think there is some sort of seal under the door frame, but according to Lorin, some stoves have come back to Woodstock with staining under that soapstone piece above the door frame. And the stoves came back because of the smell. Sooo, the seal under the door frame must not be working for those of us with the door side smell. They are sending me something called Res-Bond to try. I guess they've been testing it and are impressed with it.
> 
> Josh


 
Any update?   Did it work?    Did you try it?


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## Boiler74 (Apr 3, 2013)

Machria said:


> Any update? Did it work? Did you try it?


 
No, I'm sorry to say, it didn't.  And I'm starting to get frustrated, and I think Woodstock is getting frustrated with me.

To recap, I have a smell on the door side.  At this point I honestly don't know if it's coming from the cooktop or the door.  I still suspect the door.  I have done Binko's gasket job, and have re-gasketed the door a couple of other times too.  I'm probably going to do it one last time tonight. 

This smell is like a fume, if that makes sense.  I can smell it when the stove gets up to temp, but it takes a day to become noticeable in the house.  But once it does, I get a headache, my eyes can burn a little.... that's why I say it's like a fume smell.  I often will air out the house and then warm it back up with the stove, only to do it again a day or two later.  The stove has run a lot, and I ran it hot for a couple hours thinking it was the paint curing.  Didn't help. 

Woodstock replaced my first cooktop because it was warped pretty bad.  Thought that would fix the problem.  Nope.  I have also:

1.)  Re-gasketed the cooktop twice.  Replace the cooktop once.
2.)  Re-gasketed the door four times now I think
3.)  took the door frame off and res-bonded it per instructions from WS.
4.)  I used stove cement to attach gasket to try and fill that triangle void in the door frame.
5.)  Filled the roll pins under the top with cement and confirmed with an inspection camera
6.) Cleaned and inspected the flue a couple of times
7.) stuffed gasket material all around the cooktop to see if the smell was coming from there
8.) stuffed gasket material in the door frame channels to add an extra layer of gasket to the door
9.)  Bugged the hell out of Lorin at WS.

All these have been done incrementally.  I've also thrown all sorts of different variables at the stove.  Open windows/closed windows.  OAK on/off.  chimney cap on/off.  I have shut any and all fans/exhausts/etc off many times and most times.

My CAT doesn't get hardly anything on it.  I have a 20' insulated liner on an exterior chimney.  I also have an OAK and an ash pan.

I'm honestly on my last nerve with the smell.  Being inside the 6 month return period, it will go back if I can't find a solution.  I do not want to send it back.... I love how it heats.  But, I also can't have this smell.  I wish WS would just send me a whole new stove, but with my luck, it would do the same thing.

My house is tight, I will admit that.  That's why I have the OAK.  The stove is also in a room with cathedral ceilings.  I don't know if that plays into this.  But I can't change my house. 

It seems no matter what I do, I can't win.  Lorin at Woodstock has been great, but she is out of ideas too.  And I think she's sick of dealing with the problem.  And I know it's hard for them to try to diagnose a problem like this, especially not knowing me or my skill set.  It's probably easy to think I'm a moron and can't do anything right, and that's why there is still this smell.  They don't know that I have been running student rental properties for 20 years, can fix most anything electrical, plumbing, or structural.  I built my own house, remodeled countless others.  I'm pretty handy.  WS just can't understand that smell comes out.  Hot stoves are supposed to suck air IN right?

Sorry, I'm venting.  This has just sorta' consumed my thoughts lately.  Sitting and staring at the stove, trying to image what the heck could cause this, has become a nightly routine.


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## charly (Apr 3, 2013)

Boiler74 said:


> No, I'm sorry to say, it didn't. And I'm starting to get frustrated, and I think Woodstock is getting frustrated with me.
> 
> To recap, I have a smell on the door side. At this point I honestly don't know if it's coming from the cooktop or the door. I still suspect the door. I have done Binko's gasket job, and have re-gasketed the door a couple of other times too. I'm probably going to do it one last time tonight.
> 
> ...


Could there be a piece of plastic or something of that nature stuck behind a stone during assembly of the stove , maybe used during the shipping of stones to keep them from chipping.. Maybe something became impregnated into the soapstone, a chemical spilled and dried itself into the stone? Then it slowly off gases as the pores of the stone get hot? Sounds like you've been all over the stove with new gaskets... Just trying to think outside the book.. I feel bad that your going through something like that...hope you can get that resolved...


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## Machria (Apr 3, 2013)

hmmmmmm..... interesting.

Let me describe what I am seeing/smelling, tell me if you have the same:

When a fire is hot and going, I do not smell a fire or wood burning smell at all in my house (excluding the few minutes after opening the door to re-load....).  BUT, if I put my nose and sniff above and around the stove, I will smell a strong wood buring smell (NOT a smoke smell, it's that distinct wood burning smell), but I will ONLY smell it on the right back corner of the stove (I have right side door) just above the back corner of the door.  The close to the stove I put my nose, the stronger it is, an I mean 1" from the stove off that back corner.  If I put my nose just aboe the top vent/flue, I smell nothing.  Anywhere else on the stove, nothing.  But that top back corner above the door it is very strong. 

It's definitely leaking somewhere right around that top corner of the door.  I'd swear it has something to do with that small triangle part coverd on the inside of the door.  I see a bit of creosote built up on the inside of the door opposite of where that triangle is on the inside.  The gasket around the door looks a bit more "browned" at that spot than the rest of the area's as well.  However, the "browned" area on the gasket does NOT go all the way thru the gasket.  In otherwords, there is a line in the middle of the gasket (where it seals against the door frame) where the browning stops, and the rest of the gasket is bright white(gray) as if it were brand new.  So it doesn't "look" like smoke is passing there.  But I still think that is where the problem is, something to do with that little triangle area on the top back inside of the door.  Maybe there is a vacume being created in that little spot behind the door and triangle or something....?


*I can't figure out what you mean by "Roll Pins"?    Where are these and what are they?*


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## 3fordasho (Apr 3, 2013)

I installed an extra piece of gasket to seal up the area that others were noticing creosote build up. Easy to install and it seems to seal but sorry to say it has not affected the smoke smell. :-(


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## 3fordasho (Apr 3, 2013)

I have to say your description of the smell and your experience pretty much mirror mine except I do get the cat build up and the smell gets worse as the build up increases.  The cat build up I can deal with but I have to agree that the smell is quite irritating and at times I want to reinstall my old fireview.







Boiler74 said:


> No, I'm sorry to say, it didn't. And I'm starting to get frustrated, and I think Woodstock is getting frustrated with me.
> 
> To recap, I have a smell on the door side. At this point I honestly don't know if it's coming from the cooktop or the door. I still suspect the door. I have done Binko's gasket job, and have re-gasketed the door a couple of other times too. I'm probably going to do it one last time tonight.
> 
> ...


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## charly (Apr 3, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> I installed an extra piece of gasket to seal up the area that others were noticing creosote build up. Easy to install and it seems to seal but sorry to say it has not affected the smoke smell. :-(


I'm very interested to see what you finally figure out. .Absolutely something is going on there , especially that more then one stove is exhibiting the exact same issue,, smell coming from the same upper corner..


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## HollowHill (Apr 3, 2013)

Drat!  I was really hoping that would cure the smoke smell (the res-bonding thing).  I have it in exactly the same place and Machria describes it very well.  It does get worse when my cat needs cleaning, which makes me wonder if that would indicate that its coming from the cat chamber.  But, now that I think on it, as the cat plugs, the smoke exit from the stove chamber slows, right?  Not from the cat chamber.  Can't remember how the air flows through now.  It is frustrating, I keep hoping someone will figure it out


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## Boiler74 (Apr 3, 2013)

charly said:


> Could there be a piece of plastic or something of that nature stuck behind a stone during assembly of the stove , maybe used during the shipping of stones to keep them from chipping.. Maybe something became impregnated into the soapstone, a chemical spilled and dried itself into the stone? Then it slowly off gases as the pores of the stone get hot? Sounds like you've been all over the stove with new gaskets... Just trying to think outside the book.. I feel bad that your going through something like that...hope you can get that resolved...


 
Thanks.


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## Boiler74 (Apr 3, 2013)

Machria said:


> hmmmmmm..... interesting.
> 
> Let me describe what I am seeing/smelling, tell me if you have the same:
> 
> ...


 
I do feel like the smell is stronger the further back I go towards the corner on the door side. 

As for the roll pins, try this.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/overfire.102759/page-2#post-1343032


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## Boiler74 (Apr 3, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> I installed an extra piece of gasket to seal up the area that others were noticing creosote build up. Easy to install and it seems to seal but sorry to say it has not affected the smoke smell. :-(


 
I did this same thing, although maybe not as pretty.  Didn't work either.


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## charly (Apr 3, 2013)

Boiler74 said:


> Thanks.


Sounds like smoke over plastic or something on the stones,,, as per everyone having the same issue.. What a shame because that's such a nice stove.. Hope you guys can figure it out...


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## rideau (Apr 3, 2013)

Josh,

I don't have a smoke smell, so the following is speculation, not anything I can check. 

In the early stage of the fire, I would expect smoke to get trapped in that space by the door behind the triangle, but only for a short time before draft is well established. Since that corner is not subjected to the direct heat of the fire, the smoke that deposits on the door there doesn't get burned off.  I think that is what is going on there, as opposed to creosote forming because cold air is coming into the stove there.  In other words, I don't think it is something to worry about.  If that corner of the door smells like creosote, then you could clean it off.  It might help with a smell issue, if the stuff there smells as the stove is heated, but doesn't get hot enough to burn off. 

Looked again at the picture of your door.  The gasket in the upper corner looks clean to me, which makes me doubt much smoke is escaping there.  However, it appears that there is a portion of the channel that is not gasketed, and it appears as if part of the gasket there is thicker than another portion.  Also appears as if the body of the stove at that corner, and perhaps the tip of the door, have a slight browning of the cast, indicating some smoke exposure.  That may just be an artifact from shadow on the photo, and not a true finding.  Is the gasket joint in that corner?  If so, or if any of the above is so, then maybe try installing the next gasket with the joint at a bottom corner, or in the center of the bottom, cutting the gasket just a tad long and scrunching it in?  Or even splicing the gasket into a circle, if you can measure it well enough?

If that door is well gasketed, it just doesn't make any sense that smoke, or even a wood fire smell could come out during burning.  It's not any different from other stove doors, or from the Fireview door.  People with the problem seem pretty sure the smell is coming from the door corner itself, and not from a stove seam somewhere, and leaking out through soapstone near there?  Has anyone tried lighting a candle and holding the flame near that corner at various times during a burn to see if there is any movement of the flame? 

Josh, the smoke smell seems to be more of a physical well being problem for you than for most others.  Did you burn a wood stove before the PH?  Asking to be sure you don't have a hypersensitivity to wood burning.  Not a soluntion to the problem, but perhaps a mitigation of the problem, might be the use of an air purifier to get rid of the smell? 

There is an air space between the soapstone and the griddle.  Perhaps you could put an extra, loose (not cemented)gasket in that space on the right side, just to see if it makes any difference.   Would not expect it to, but anything is worth a try. 

Again on the theory that anything is worth a try, try removing the smoke shield over the door, in case it is doing the opposite of what it is designed to do, and actually keeping smoke that gets by the door early from circulating back into the stove.  You can always put it back, if removing makes things worse. 

If I think of any other crazy stuff to try, I'll post. 

Good luck.  Would hate to see you have to send the stove back.  Am sure you fundamentally like the stove as much as I do.  Otherwise you wouldn't have stuck with it so long.


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## binko (Apr 3, 2013)

We really enjoy our Progress. Perhaps I am one of the lucky ones who was easily able to solve the smoke problem.
The bottom line is that although the Woodstock folks are great to work with (I agree that they are) the stove has to function as represented.
Having a continuous smoke smell in the house is absolutely a "NO GO" in my opinion. First of all it's unpleasant and secondly it's unhealthy.
If you're going to inhale smoke constantly, than you might as well live in the most polluted city. I feel for all of you and hope that you find a solution.


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## charly (Apr 3, 2013)

A stupid question? Could wood moisture content be an issue with the wood smoke smell? Perhaps cooling the gases creating that smoke smell.. In other words wood that is not ideally seasoned?  Binko since you have no issues,  are you burning really well seasoned wood?


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## Boiler74 (Apr 3, 2013)

rideau said:


> Josh,
> 
> I don't have a smoke smell, so the following is speculation, not anything I can check.
> 
> ...



That picture was taken before the "binko" gasket job.   This smell has persisted after multiple gasket jobs. 

This is my first time with a stove, but I've been around wood smoke all my life. This $3k stove shouldn't put out any smoke or smell anyway. 

The smoke shield is out. Took it out a week or so ago to see if that would help. I've also stuffed gasket material around the cooktop. Nothing has helped. 

I bought an air purifier early on. Didn't help.


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## Boiler74 (Apr 3, 2013)

charly said:


> A stupid question? Could wood moisture content be an issue with the wood smoke smell? Perhaps cooling the gases creating that smoke smell.. In other words wood that is not ideally seasoned?  Binko since you have no issues,  are you burning really well seasoned wood?



My wood tests below 20% with a Delmhorst J-lite tester.


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## charly (Apr 3, 2013)

Boiler74 said:


> My wood tests below 20% with a Delmhorst J-lite tester.


Has Woodstock been able to reproduce the wood smoke smell at all in that door area? What do they think?


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## binko (Apr 3, 2013)

I don't think that my wood is particularly well seasoned. It really shouldn't matter as far as the smoke smell goes. Well seasoned wood determines how much heat you get and the content of the gases going out the chimney. The key is "out the chimney" and not leaking back into the house. Logic dictates that if there is a leak in the stove, it should be leaking inward, however there may be DEAD spots in some areas where there is little or no airflow allowing smoke to ooze out. I am only speculating-the Woodstock folks would know best.
Again no matter how attractive or how much heat output there may be, if there is an unsolvable smoke smell-it's a show stopper in my mind.


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## rdust (Apr 3, 2013)

I think it's as simple as a draft issue with most of the stoves having the issue.  Slow draft allows the smell to come out of the stove instead of going up the chimney.  I'd be curious how the stoves having issues vs not compare on a manometer.


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## binko (Apr 3, 2013)

I tend to agree on the slow draft issue. I have an Exhausto fan on the top of my chimney because a have a less than ideal set-up. When I first installed our Progress and had the smoke smell, I could get rid of it by turning the Exhausto to a higher setting to induce greater draft. This however was just a false solution. For me fixing the door gasket allowed me to turn the fan all the way to idle which results in a draft range that Woodstock recommends. It appears that the Progress is less tolerant of a marginal draft installation than other models.


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## Boiler74 (Apr 4, 2013)

Woodstock has looked at my setup via video and said they don't think it's a draft issue.


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## 3fordasho (Apr 4, 2013)

I described my flue set up and they (Woodstock) didn't think it is a draft issue in my case either.  However I am thinking of trying an additional 3' section of class A.  Also have considered adding an outside air kit - just because I want to reduce the existing negitive pressure in the house and I suspect it will help the draft as well.
My house is not near as tight as new construction, but open a window and the air rushes in.

I also suspect at this point the PH flue is more gunked up than it should be (judging the looks of the cap).  Also the same build up that has been plugging the cat is also present in the short section of horizontal connector pipe from the back of the stove to the start of the class A.

I think Iam going to ask/order a new cat, clean the flue and then see what the situation is like.  The cat just does not fire off like the one in the Fireview, and that flue appears to have stayed cleaner burning the exact same wood.






Boiler74 said:


> Woodstock has looked at my setup via video and said they don't think it's a draft issue.


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## Waulie (Apr 4, 2013)

I had a tiny wood burning smell a couple times last year but haven't noticed it since.  Here's my thoughts on it.

Since it seems like everything has been tried in terms of gaskets and leaks it seems like it must be a fundamental design issue.  But, since it only affects some people I'm guessing it has to be either draft or wood related.

Speculating here, but I'm imaging when the bypass is closed the exhaust path begins filling with smoke just upstream of the cat when it encounters the restricted flow at the cat.  The Progress has two main air inlets with the secondary air on the left and the primary on the right.  Everyone reports the smell from the right side.  What if the smell is actually coming out of the primary air inlet?  Perhaps if there is not enough draft to pull the smoke fast enough through the cat the pressure build up in the stove causes a bit of smoke to go out the primary inlet?  Since the stove is probably drawing the majority of the air from the secondary inlet when the bypassed in the closed the the draft mostly closed, maybe the primary inlet can reverse due to the pressure build up?


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## rideau (Apr 4, 2013)

Waulie,

That makes sense, and it may well be the smell is coming from that area. I think we have to say "smell" since it does not seem like anyone ever sees any actual smoke, and the comment has been made that it is a wood-burning smell as opposed to a smoke smell (? not too sure what that means).

I had been thinking along the same lines during the past twentyfour hours, more or less. I was comparing the Fireview and PH, thinking about what is different. Fundamentally, the Fireview has a screen with large holes, so totally unobstructed air flow when the bypass is closed. And the draft path when closed is through the screen and right into the cat, so there is no distance traveled by the gases from the stove before the cat burns the particulates and volatile gases. So there is no time when the smoke and volatile gases are out of the firebox or flue.

Contrarily, with the PH there is a deliberate tortuous path that the smoke and volatile gases follow in the chamber above the firebox before they flow through the cat and into the flue. I definitely see fly ash in that area, just as fly ash blocks the upstream side of my cat. So I have a really strong draft that pulls lots of ash along with the gases. Because my draft is strong, unless the cat gets blocked, I have no smell. However, if my draft was at all sluggish and the gases went through the chamber slowly, then there would be time for smoke and volatile gases to meander into areas. I was trying to figure out whether there was a seam where the smell could filter through the stove. Your theory for where the smell migrates from the stove makes a lot of sense.

I wonder if there is a non-combustible air filter? One would think such a thing must exist. Perhaps one could be fitted to mitigate the problem. Problem is, it would have to permit free flow of air in, as well....

This theory also makes sense, because it appears that people who have the odor issue to not have it primarily when the stove is first lit, before the bypasss is closed, which is when there is actually the most smoke in the firebox and the least draft, and when I would expect a smell from smoke coming out of the firebox. At that point, before the bypass is closed, the smoke is going straight from the firebox to the flue.


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## rideau (Apr 4, 2013)

Really good news. I just spoke with Woodstock.

They have torn the PHs down, and have used meters to measure gases off the burning stove, and have diagnosed the problems/sources of odor. They are in the process of remediating the problem. They will figure out how to upgrade every stove, which is not going to be a simple thing, but they are committed to doing it.

They are also correcting the issue by the bottom of the steel secondary plate, and will be correcting that when upgrading the stoves. 

Is this a great company?

Hold onto your stoves!

Oh - and nice theory I had. The smell, when it happens, is from gases/smoke seeping between the firebox and stone, and migrating out at the top between the stone and cast iron. Also, by the hollow roll pins.


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## charly (Apr 4, 2013)

rideau said:


> Really good news. I just spoke with Woodstock.
> 
> They have torn the PHs down, and have used meters to measure gases off the burning stove, and have diagnosed the problems/sources of odor. They are in the process of remediating the problem. They will figure out how to upgrade every stove, which is not going to be a simple thing, but they are committed to doing it.
> 
> ...


You bet a great company! I'm really impressed when a company like Woodstock can truthfully admit their is an issue with one of their stove models... that honesty says it all for me! Plus they're going to provide a fix for every PH owners stove,, just wonderful people! How can you not want to deal with a company like this? That is really good news!


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## WarmInIowa (Apr 4, 2013)

Oh what sweet music to my ears


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## Boiler74 (Apr 4, 2013)

rideau said:


> Oh - and nice theory I had. The smell, when it happens, is from gases/smoke seeping between the firebox and stone, and migrating out at the top between the stone and cast iron. Also, by the hollow roll pins.


 
Problem is, this sounds like the what I have already done, by way of the ResBond under the door frame itself.  Are they still concentrating on the door frame, or is this in some other place?


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## Machria (Apr 17, 2013)

Waulie said:


> The Progress has two main air inlets with the secondary air on the left and the primary on the right.* Everyone reports the smell from the right side*.​


 
Actually, that's not true. The smell does not always come from the "right" side, it comes from the DOOR side which can be on either side of course.  In addition, mine definitely does not come from the intakes in the back. If I put my nose down by the top of the air intake, there is no smell at all. But if I put my nose at the top back corner of the stove, then I smell it strong. To me it seems to either come from the back/top of the door and/or door frame, OR from the top corner seems in the stones, where the stones meet the cast iron frame (*which tends to aggree with the woodstock finding below.*..).




rideau said:


> Really good news. I just spoke with Woodstock.
> 
> They have torn the PHs down, and have used meters to measure gases off the burning stove, and have diagnosed the problems/sources of odor. They are in the process of remediating the problem. They will figure out how to upgrade every stove, which is not going to be a simple thing, but they are committed to doing it.
> 
> ...


 
*ABSOLUTELY AWESOME! THANKS WOODSTOCK! *This will make the "best stove", even BETTER and further ahead of the rest of the pack! 



Boiler74 said:


> Problem is, this sounds like the what I have already done, by way of the ResBond under the door frame itself. Are they still concentrating on the door frame, or is this in some other place?


 
We shall see I guess, but the good news is they now see or should I say "smell" what we do, so I have confidence they will figure it out. I've personally have wondered about the things I've circled in the attached picture in the firebox. The 3 "bumps" in the steel frame I circled, what is behind them? The do look like they would let smoke behind them, but maybe there is nothing behind them.... ? And then the last circle in the back corner, there is that small gap between the back wall stones and the top stones.... I've wondered where that goes..... ?

But I agree with what rideau posted about what Woodstock found. To me it does seem like the smell is "seeping" from between the stones. It's not jetting out of anything, it just slowly seeps, or meanders out slowly. I'd bet there is just one tiny little spot that needs sealed, and that will fix it. I hope anyway....


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## Machria (Apr 17, 2013)

rideau said:


> Also, by the hollow roll pins​


 
Can somebody post a pic of these "Roll Pins"?  I can't figure out what these are, what everyone is speakng about with them...    I don't see any "pins" in there anywhere...


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## melissa71 (Apr 17, 2013)

Machria, that's where I can smell it, too.  Top, rear corner on the door side. It's not all the time, but when it does happen it's noticeable.  For me, it's definitely not a deal breaker, just a minor annoyance.  Hopefully WS will come up with an easy fix.


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## Machria (Apr 17, 2013)

melissa71 said:


> Machria, that's where I can smell it, too. Top, rear corner on the door side. It's not all the time, but when it does happen it's noticeable. For me, it's definitely not a deal breaker, just a minor annoyance. Hopefully WS will come up with an easy fix.


 
Yep, exactly.  I wouldn't have even thought it was a "problem", as we are burning wood, I would guess we will smell some wood burning!    EXCEPT for the fact, that I can't smell it anywhere else, except that one spot, which means it's an "issue", not normal.  And after burning for days, it does get a bit strong...  especially if you leave the house, and then come back in.


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## charly (Apr 17, 2013)

I know when I talked to Jamie the other day about getting the Hybrid,, he said they are updating their inventory of Hybrids at the factory...I didn't get into the details of the smoke smell but he did say they redid the door frame area.. I believe a different type of gasket behind the door frame? Not the door gasket itself...It is nice that they are not turning their heads and telling people it's their wood or their draft,  not their problem.. Just the opposite, they took everyone's feed back seriously.   Again, one family taking care of another family of Hybrid owners


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## pro5oh (Apr 21, 2013)

I wonder if they will cover our 2012 stoves, mine always has a smoke smell in that area when in cat mode.  Been fishing around with a 2" miror and flashlight cant find these roll pins.


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## Machria (Apr 21, 2013)

pro5oh said:


> Been fishing around with a 2" miror and flashlight cant find these roll pins.​


 


Machria said:


> *Can somebody post a pic of these "Roll Pins"? I can't figure out what these are, what everyone is speakng about with them... I don't see any "pins" in there anywhere...*​


 
??  Anyone?


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## 3fordasho (Apr 22, 2013)

There is a picture of the roll pins in this thread: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/overfire.102759/page-3

I should also add that some with smaller/medium sized hands have been able to plug the pins with furnace cement without having the entire top off the stove.  You can get to them by "feel" with just the cook top removed.  I could see them with a flashlight and inpection mirror.

I think was able to plug them this way but still have the smell.


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## Machria (Apr 22, 2013)

Can't figure out in this pic what is referred to...?


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## 3fordasho (Apr 22, 2013)

Machria said:


> Can't figure out in this pic what is referred to...?
> 
> View attachment 100365


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## Machria (Apr 23, 2013)

thanks 3ford.  

THAT is NOT what is leaking.


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## pro5oh (Apr 25, 2013)

The smell I do get tends to be around the door area, and I am on the low draft side for chimneys.  Roll pins would be both sides it seems.


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## 3fordasho (Apr 25, 2013)

pro5oh said:


> The smell I do get tends to be around the door area, and I am on the low draft side for chimneys. Roll pins would be both sides it seems.


 

I would tend to agree, I noticed no difference in the smell after I plugged the roll pins.  It was nice to eliminate that possibility though.  At this point I'm done burning the PH, my Fireview can handle all the heating needs and it looks like that will go cold this weekend.   Woodstock is working on signifigant fixes for the smoke smell issue for us with the earlier stoves, just a matter of waiting for them.


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## charly (Apr 25, 2013)

3fordasho said:


> I would tend to agree, I noticed no difference in the smell after I plugged the roll pins. It was nice to eliminate that possibility though. At this point I'm done burning the PH, my Fireview can handle all the heating needs and it looks like that will go cold this weekend. Woodstock is working on signifigant fixes for the smoke smell issue for us with the earlier stoves, just a matter of waiting for them.


I was talking to Woodstock as I'm trading in my Fireview for the PH and yes,,, they are taking care of the smoke smell for sure...I'm looking forward to the PH after trying to heat 1900 sq ft with the Fireview.. Should be a big difference I imagine...


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## Machria (Apr 26, 2013)

I'm looking forward to a fix, as next year I'll be burning from begining to end, all with some great wood.  I'm looking forward to the summer, but at the same time can't wait to start buring again!


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## Machria (May 2, 2013)

Just for the heck of it, poking around I took some pics of the inside of my PH. Specifically holding the camera inside and looking back at the back side of the door, in the back corner where the smell is. The space above the inside stone on the corner looks like an "interesting" spot for a possible leak?


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## pro5oh (May 10, 2013)

Got an email from Jamie at Woodstock concerning PH ongoing smoke smell.  He sent a video about how to remove the door frame, and double gasket the contact surface where it meets the firebox.  I don't think there are any other issues they have found.  There's  mention of a kit in the video I suspect will get shipped out to us all.  I might just live with it for fear of making it worse after watching the video.


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## charly (May 11, 2013)

pro5oh said:


> Got an email from Jamie at Woodstock concerning PH ongoing smoke smell. He sent a video about how to remove the door frame, and double gasket the contact surface where it meets the firebox. I don't think there are any other issues they have found. There's mention of a kit in the video I suspect will get shipped out to us all. I might just live with it for fear of making it worse after watching the video.


   I can't see how Woodstock will be happy having you live with a stove the is producing a smoke smell into your home... If you feel uncomfortable doing the fix,, myself I would call them to let them know and see what can be worked out.. Such a beautiful stove as to not fix the smoke smell and enjoy it the way you should.. I'd be interested to see the video..


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## binko (May 11, 2013)

I agree about not living with the smoke smell. In addition to being unpleasant, it's UNHEALTHY. Even if you get used to it (something you should not have to do) everyone who comes to your home will immediately notice it as well. What this does is put a BLACK EYE on the industry and the uneducated will think that this is a necessary evil with woodstoves.


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## pro5oh (May 12, 2013)

I have tried to not be harsh on this whole ordeal since 2/12 as to not give the company a bad rap, I didn't want my scenario to blanket the stoves reputation.  So many have had the issue, I'm going give mine.

I had a $600 englander 30nc that worked just fine, just hungry and a bit ugly imo, then bought a fireview that cracked in less than a year, drove 12 hours @14mpg and upgraded to a progress which to me was huge $ and I'm still paying on it.  Since then my progress has had loose air damper (from factory, couldn't close fully, ran hot ), clogged cat screen weekly(upgraded), smoke smell for the entire first burn season, new cook top didn't resolve, and now I'm expected to tear apart a $3000+ new stove to see if the firebox is warped and double gasket the door frame.  

If you check the classifieds you'll see mine is for sale or trade $1000 loss, I absolutely LOVE this stove, the ash pan, the huge viewing area, the top outlet on and on.  But I have a 3 year old toddler and a spray foamed home, smoke odor isn't an option for us.  

Lots of folks on here say how great the company is, at $3000+ I think buying back the stove should be an option(this is a safety issue from day 1), or they should swap it out for a new unit with all the bugs repaired by them.  Telling the customer to repair it themselves leaves a bad taste, and a insurance liability now on the customer if it's not assembled correctly.  I don't think my homeowners insurance would like the thought of me tearing apart and assembling the stove, and neither do I. 

Its not just a smoke smell, its the point.  If you smell smoke there are other combustion gasses as well in a sealed up house in winter, I don't think we have given much thought about that fact.  You wouldn't drive a brand new car that smelled of exhaust inside, windows closed with your family and say "there's a fix in the works" for us to install.  Many of those same harmful gasses are associated with burning wood also.  

Sorry Woodstock but its the truth.


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## Waulie (May 12, 2013)

If you take the what should Woodstock do/ not do out of the equation and just step back and look at where you're at, it might help.  You have a $3,000 stove that you love everything about except the smoke smell.  Personally, I would try the fix before losing $1,000 on it.  Should you have to? No.  Is that the best option? It just might be.  You could also hire someone to do it for way less than $1,000.  Good luck!


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## rdust (May 12, 2013)

I'm surprised woodstock wouldn't ask for the stoves back so they could perform the repairs.  Of course moving the stoves and paying freight wouldn't be exactly fun.  Since the stove has a problem what about returning it for the refund?  

Dealing direct is great but when you have issues that involve more than sending out an easy to replace part it can become difficult for some users.


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## pro5oh (May 12, 2013)

Very frustrating predicament,  I'll think it over and see what my homeowners says, I may attempt it because theres much money wrapped up in it. Would really like my money back.


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## alforit (May 13, 2013)

pro5oh said:


> I have tried to not be harsh on this whole ordeal since 2/12 as to not give the company a bad rap, I didn't want my scenario to blanket the stoves reputation. So many have had the issue, I'm going give mine.
> 
> I had a $600 englander 30nc that worked just fine, just hungry and a bit ugly imo, then bought a fireview that cracked in less than a year, drove 12 hours @14mpg and upgraded to a progress which to me was huge $ and I'm still paying on it. Since then my progress has had loose air damper (from factory, couldn't close fully, ran hot ), clogged cat screen weekly(upgraded), smoke smell for the entire first burn season, new cook top didn't resolve, and now I'm expected to tear apart a $3000+ new stove to see if the firebox is warped and double gasket the door frame.
> 
> ...


 

Yeah there are both benefits and drawbacks in dealing with a mail order direct stove manufacturer..........In your case I would think since Woodstock has known ( Im assuming ) about your problem since the beginning and if you were within your return warranty period when you reported the smoke issue to them and it still hasn't been resolved, then that return warranty period would still be honored............The fact that they even offer that kind of return (satisfaction) policy that they do Is amazing and is unlike any other stove manufacturer. That being said your smoke issue should never have taken this long to be fixed , and it should have been suggested that you return your stove for repair or refund or exchange at least before your return window had expired knowing that there was not a fix yet and that you would lose that opportunity to return it.....................I agree , it is a big deal ... A smoke smell means there is smoke leaking into your home and that's not only bad for your child but for you and your partner and pets .


Since Woodstock is a mail order direct stove manufacturer and they don't use any dealers to service any of their warranty issues on a local level , it makes it tough for the consumer if there is a problem,...... And for them too..........Because of that type of purchase you need to expect that small problems will require a do it yourself fix from a kit or a part being sent to you by mail........But I think this smoke problem is a little larger than just having a small part or kit being sent out in the mail........So I agree with you .,,,,,,.....And because of that I would think that before a stove is released by that type of direct sale manufacturer it would have been tested to death ...... at least for any larger problems like damper, smoke leakage , etc , since they don't have anyone on a local level to represent them for repair.


From what I have read , Woodstock released this stove early to a small group of people for a good discount in return for helping test and refine it for any issues that might come up. Smart move in my opinion...... But Im not sure it was completely ready for public sale yet.........I think because of the combination of it being a new thing (hybrid technology) and so many variables ,multiple materials being used, and so many unknown's that circle around that , it left the door open for issues.

Just my opinion

I hope someone at Woodstock sees your post and takes compassion for your plight . They are good people and Im sure they look at each situation and take consideration for it.


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## pro5oh (May 13, 2013)

This has been my smoke smell solution.


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## charly (May 13, 2013)

pro5oh said:


> This has been my smoke smell solution.


That's ridiculous that you had to install another stove instead of  fix...  Now I'm thinking twice about trading in my Fireview for a Progress...That's the last thing I want is to go through muscling 700 lbs of stove to find out I too have a smoke smell.. Maybe it's time that some other people with issues chime in here because I'd like to know before I make a move here now..Not trying to bad mouth Woodstock but a constant smoke smell would be a major issue for me as well, and I'm not about to buy a new stove that needs work.. or is it the draft?


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## binko (May 13, 2013)

To pro5oh:
You should not have to go thru what you have encountered. We all know the Woodstock team is a nice group of cooperative people however the bottom line is that you have paid good money for a product that has not performed as advertised. They do have a 6 month buyback program that you appear to be well within. Even if you are not, Speak with Tom or Lorin at Woodstock and I bet they will find a solution that you will be satisfied with.


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## TheBean (May 13, 2013)

Woodstock Soapstone Progress Owners-

First and foremost, I would like to quickly squash the idea that Woodstock is expecting Progress Hybrid customers to take on some of these more complex upgrades that we are still in the process of rolling out.

If you are a Progress Hybrid owner that has experienced ongoing smoke odor issues (with no visible smoke present), and you haven't already spoke to me (Lorin), then I would encourage you to please call, 1-800-866-4344, so I can add you to my list of customers. 

I ask that you please bear with us as we, as a company, figure out the best way to upgrade your stove. Currently we are working out the details of an upgrade process that will work for customers and for us as a small business.The videos that we are in the process of making, certainly can be used by the customer that is willing and able to do the work required, but they are intended more as an informational video. 

Our major goal is to take care of our Progress customers over this spring/summer and I reiterate, we are still working out these upgrade details, and will be in touch with customers that are experiencing issues to work out the details once an action plan is completed. Thank you for understanding.

Lorin Day
Customer Service Manager
Woodstock Soapstone Co.


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## HollowHill (May 13, 2013)

Lorin, thanks for clarifying this matter.  My mind is at ease and you know how difficult that state is to achieve


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## pro5oh (May 13, 2013)

1 and a half burn seasons with this issue. I'm aware there is work twords a cure and that says a lot for a company but that doesnt help me heat my home. Dont let my problem stop you from considering a woodstock stove. I think its the purpose of a forum to inform people of individual experiences. The majority of customers haven't had any issues, I just bought 2 stoves from them and had issues with both. Im willing to bet no one else can say that.


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## Machria (May 13, 2013)

TheBean said:


> Woodstock Soapstone Progress Owners-
> 
> First and foremost, I would like to quickly squash the idea that Woodstock is expecting Progress Hybrid customers to take on some of these more complex upgrades that we are still in the process of rolling out.
> 
> ...


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## binko (May 13, 2013)

I think Lorin's note above sums it up. All of or stoves are in hibernation for the season so no one is losing heating time. Let's let the Woodstock team do what they need to and extend them the courtesy of believing in their commitment to making things right.


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## Waulie (May 13, 2013)

binko said:


> I think Lorin's note above sums it up. All of or stoves are in hibernation for the season so no one is losing heating time. Let's let the Woodstock team do what they need to and extend them the courtesy of believing in their commitment to making things right.


 
Well, not quite in hibernation here.  Soon, I hope!


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## Machria (May 14, 2013)

So I got a copy of the video with a PDF description along with it from Lorin yesterday to change/fix the gasket on the door frame. Looks straight forward and easy enough to me. Not sure I understand the statements above that the video describes a difficult procedure of taking the stove guts apart... ?

You simply remove the door, remove one bolt and lift it out. Then you loosen 4 bolts (to remove the 2 corner cast peices). Then you unbolt and remove the the door frame from the firebox with 4 bolts. Remove the old gasket, re-install a set of new gaskets (2 gastkets replace the old 1 gasket, one lays on top of the other). Then re-install the door frame with the 4 bolts, re-install the 2 corner cast peices by tightening their 4 bolts, place the door back on and install it's 1 bolt. Done.

Looks like an 15 minute job to me.  Lorin said more like an hour to hour and half.  Anyway, doesn't look bad to me.


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## rdust (May 14, 2013)

2 gaskets on top of each other sure sounds like a "hack" to me, I wonder why they just didn't source one gasket that is thicker?  hmmmmm


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## Machria (May 14, 2013)

rdust said:


> 2 gaskets on top of each other sure sounds like a "hack" to me, I wonder why they just didn't source one gasket that is thicker? hmmmmm


 
Just a guess, but there is a groove for the first gasket to go into to fill, they are trying to fill that groove tightly, then the 2nd gasket makes the tight fit between the two surfaces being sealed (firebox and door frame).


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## Boiler74 (May 15, 2013)

Machria said:


> So I got a copy of the video with a PDF description along with it from Lorin yesterday to change/fix the gasket on the door frame. Looks straight forward and easy enough to me. Not sure I understand the statements above that the video describes a difficult procedure of taking the stove guts apart... ?
> 
> You simply remove the door, remove one bolt and lift it out. Then you loosen 4 bolts (to remove the 2 corner cast peices). Then you unbolt and remove the the door frame from the firebox with 4 bolts. Remove the old gasket, re-install a set of new gaskets (2 gastkets replace the old 1 gasket, one lays on top of the other). Then re-install the door frame with the 4 bolts, re-install the 2 corner cast peices by tightening their 4 bolts, place the door back on and install it's 1 bolt. Done.
> 
> Looks like an 15 minute job to me. Lorin said more like an hour to hour and half. Anyway, doesn't look bad to me.


 
I've done this job, but instead of the double gasket, I replaced the original gasket and added the ResBond per WS's instructions.  It's not a 15 minute job, let me tell you.  For the first time, probably 1.5 hours.  If I did it ten times, maybe an hour.


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## charly (May 15, 2013)

Boiler74 said:


> I've done this job, but instead of the double gasket, I replaced the original gasket and added the ResBond per WS's instructions. It's not a 15 minute job, let me tell you. For the first time, probably 1.5 hours. If I did it ten times, maybe an hour.


What took the time,, just cleaning the gasket surfaces?


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## Boiler74 (May 15, 2013)

charly said:


> What took the time,, just cleaning the gasket surfaces?


 
Just the whole project.  You have to remove the two cast corner pieces, these rods that tie the top and bottom together, then the door, door frame, remove the old gasket, clean, the install the new.  Then put it back together, install the rods, corners, etc.  It isn't wham-bam-thank you ma'am work.  Because you are around the stone you have to be careful with it.  Oh, and you have to remove the stone above the door frame.  It's just methodical work, being careful, and a lot of steps.  It's not 15 minutes worth.


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## charly (May 15, 2013)

Well, at least it's a one time thing, and doing it yourself allows you to take your time and do a pin neat job... I'll be taking the Hybrid plunge soon, trading up from my Fireview..  After talking with Jamie,,, they do want to make sure that everyone has solved any smoke issues..so no one is left smelling smoke...That doesn't sound like too bad of a job to do...yes unfortunate that it happened, but at least you have a fix completed .


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## Boiler74 (May 15, 2013)

charly said:


> Well, at least it's a one time thing, and doing it yourself allows you to take your time and do a pin neat job... I'll be taking the Hybrid plunge soon, trading up from my Fireview.. After talking with Jamie,,, they do want to make sure that everyone has solved any smoke issues..so no one is left smelling smoke...That doesn't sound like too bad of a job to do...yes unfortunate that it happened, but at least you have a fix completed .


 
Problem is doing that didn't fix my smoke smell.  So you can do the work, and then have to wonder where else the smell is coming from.


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## charly (May 15, 2013)

Crap So you are still getting smoke smell from where ? Same spot? What did Woodstock say!


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## Boiler74 (May 15, 2013)

charly said:


> Crap So you are still getting smoke smell from where ? Same spot? What did Woodstock say!


 
There are more areas that are suspected of leaking the smell, and they are working on it.  See Lorin's post about that.  They know that the door frame fix didn't work for me, and are putting together a protocol to get it fixed.  At this point I'm going to trust that and work with them.  And be patient.  I'm not that good at being patient, so that is hard.


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## rdust (May 15, 2013)

Boiler74 said:


> I've done this job, but instead of the double gasket, I replaced the original gasket and added the ResBond per WS's instructions. It's not a 15 minute job, let me tell you. For the first time, probably 1.5 hours. If I did it ten times, maybe an hour.


 
Did it fix the smell?  Nevermind I should've read more before asking the question.


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## Brick (ware)House (Jan 18, 2017)

Looking for status updates from those of you who were unfortunate to get the "smoke smell" stoves.  Did everyone get resolution to the issue or just stop commenting on it?  I was delivered a defective, "smoky" stove and was patient enough to wait for the door fix kit while breathing god knows what.  Long story short the problem was only temporarily resolved as this week the smell (and associated burning nose) came back with a vengeance.  Anyone out there have the same issue?  I am not apt to continue putting a band-aid solution on a problem with potential health risks, especially considering that Woodstock had the option of a recall and replacement of the defective stoves the first go round.  Out of curiosity, was anyone offered the option to return the defective stove for the properly engineered and constructed "updated" version or was everyone encouraged to wait for and self-install the stopgap, door fix kit?


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## Boiler74 (Jan 18, 2017)

Ok, I guess I'm far enough down the road to finally share my story and my embarrassment about this subject.  As you can probably see in my sig, I don't have a PH anymore.  I wish I did.  And let me start out by saying that Woodstock is an amazing company.  I wish every company I dealt with operated like them. 

I fought and fought and fought the smoke smell.  Did all the modifications sent to me by WS.  And finally was sent a replacement stove from WS.  All at no cost to me.  Nothing worked.  So I finally asked that they take the stove back and they did. 

So, I went out to my local stove shop and got an F600.  Nice stove and it heats well.  But it's just not the PH.  But guess what..... I got the same kind of smoke smell from it. 

Now, in trying to find a solution when I had the PH, I bought a manometer to measure air pressure differentials.  Basically it will tell you the pressure different between the outside of you house as compared to the inside.  To put it rather crudely, it will tell if you house "sucks" or "blows." 

Quick lesson on house air pressure.  A house usually has negative pressure (sucks) on the lower levels, then a neutral pressure plan in the middle, and then positive house pressure (blows) on the upper areas.  So air is sucked into the lower levels of the house and escapes the upper levels of then house by positive pressure (blows).  The more technical explanation is air moves from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure.  The warm air at the top of your house is higher pressure than the colder air outside, so air moves to it.

So, what I learned is I had negative pressure throughout about 75% of my house.  Basically, my neutral pressure plane was on the second floor.  So by house truly "sucked" a lot of air.  The PH..... and the F600, didn't like this negative pressure and would leak air at times.  Neither did it all time, but when conditions were right it did.  I had great draft... measured once again with the manometer and confirmed by WS, but still smell.

So, what did I do?  I added two foot of insulated pipe to the top of my insulated liner, making it about 24'.  And topped that with a vacustack cap.  I do have trees around and thought maybe they played into it.  Still smelled.

So, I really started to examine air flow in the house.  About my house.......  I have cathedral ceilings and very open with a loft bedroom.  And I "thought" I did a good job air sealing when I built in 2005.  Spray foam on the walls, well sealed windows, etc.  But I started caulking everything I could, to no avail.

Then one day I thought about the ductwork.  Think about it.  If you have ductwork in running from your basement to your attic, that duct acts like an internal chimney.  And if the duct work isn't sealed in the attic, warm air is escaping due to the stack effect through those gaps in the ducts.  So, I temporarily blocked air flow inside a couple of ducts and I also put that Press and Seal kitchen wrap over the air returns.  TA DA!!  No smell.

So, here's where I'll share one of my wildest attempts to stop this permanently.  I bought a fog machine.... the kind you use on halloween.  And I filled my house with it to find the leaks.  Yep, filled it.  And I saw fog escaping out of my upper attic space through the soffit vents.  I was also able to visualize the fog moving through the ductwork.

Here's the fun part.  The ductwork in that attic space is not easily accessible.  I couldn't crawl to it.  I'm 6'7", 255.  No way my body would fit in there.  So, on a nice spring day, on my second story roof, I pulled the shingles gently, cut the roof deck about the duct work, and sealed it that way. Then put it all back together.  I also worked on sealing all other ductwork in the basement.  And it made a big difference, but I still couldn't remove the "temporary" seals on the air returns. 

So, I kept going.  I am lucky that I built this house and have a ton of pictures taken during construction.  So I can see where the duct work runs and where the joints are.  So I could cut holes in the wall to access the ducts and seal the joints. 

But, I finally had the big AH HA moment.  I have a mechanical chase that has a couple duct runs.  I cut an access and actually got in that chase to seal those ducts.  Two story, probably 3x3, so doable but tight.  Luckily I have a ladder that goes from about 2' and extends to 12.5', so I could get it in there and get to the top of the chase.  And I found a huge air leak.  That leak was pulling air out of the ducts in the chase and contributing to the negative pressure.  After I foamed that air leak I was able to take the temporary Press and Seal kitchen wrap off the ductwork and burn smell free.

Ok, I won't say that I don't get a little smell once in a while.  While I lowered my neutral pressure plane, it's not where I wish it was and where it's supposed to be, that is on the main floor right where the stove is.  But I only get smell on start up when the door is cracked to get the stove going. And only on a very rare once in a while when conditions are right for it.  There is still some more sealing of ductwork I can do and I'm slowly working on it. 

So, moral of my story is that your setup may be great..... insulated liner, plenty of height, block off plate, good windows, OAK, dry wood, etc..... and still get smell.  I did.  And I'm not saying that this is what is going on with everyone with the smell.  But I would strongly suggest that you look inside you building system before getting rid of the stove.  An easy way to look for air pressure differentials is to crack a window and hold a burning piece if incense to the crack.  If it is blown back into the house, you are in the negative pressure area.  If it is sucked outside through the crack, you are in the positive pressure area.  And if it doesn't do either you are in the neutral pressure plane.  If your stove is in the basement this will be a harder fight because basements are almost always negative.  But I'm sure there are a lot of stoves in basements that don't smell.  I can only share my story. 

I wish I had had my epiphany about the ducts while I still had the PH here, but it wasn't until also getting the smell from the F600 that I started to look deeper into the house.  I like the F600 but truly wish i had the PH back.  And maybe I will some day, but I bought some land and have to pay that off first.  Heck, WS may not want to sell me another one!!  And I apologize for not sharing my story sooner.  A bit embarrassed by it I guess, and I didn't "fix" it until just a month ago.  I've been working at this for two years I think.  I'm glad that I can finally have the HVAC system in the house unobstructed again and set to 60 as a backup to the stove.  Just wish I had known what I know now when I built 12 years ago.  But that is the way with life.

Hope this helps someone.  Josh


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## 3fordasho (Jan 18, 2017)

I purchased one of the very early (special pricing) PH's and had the smoke smell.  Woodstock eventually replaced it with a new one or like new refurb with the updates.  The replacement mostly resolved the problem but I think I experienced a bit of smell every now and again.  Shortly there after I moved it to a different house and went from a Selkirk class A chimney of about 15-18' to a insulated 25' liner in a brick fireplace chimney.  No smells at all now during normal operation*  So was it the stove or the house/chimney?  Perhaps both but I think the increased draft at the new place helped a lot.
The new place is also much tighter (spray foamed early eighties construction vs 1880's balloon frame blown in cellulose insulation) so sometimes I have trouble with reversed draft but once the chimney is warm - no problems.

* I'll still get a bit of smell but it's always because I've had the door open or have shut the air down to fast causing back puffing.


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## BuckyBeaver524 (Jan 18, 2017)

Did the fix with the door gasket kit a few years ago and it completely solved the problem.  Love the stove.


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## fire_man (Jan 18, 2017)

Boiler74 said:


> Hope this helps someone.  Josh



Nothing at all to be embarrassed at and thanks for explaining so well. I know of at least one other person who gave up on his Progress due to the smoke smell. I always suspected it was a draft related issue. Did you share this info with WS? I know they would REALLY appreciate it.

I'm extremely impressed with your tenacity to resolve this. Two stories up peeling shingles, not for me.


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## georgepds (Jan 19, 2017)

Boiler74 said:


> Ok, I guess I'm far enough down the road to finally share my story and my embarrassment about this subject.  As you can probably see in my sig, I don't have a PH anymore.  I wish I did.  And let me start out by saying that Woodstock is an amazing company.  I wish every company I dealt with operated like them.
> 
> I fought and fought and fought the smoke smell.  Did all the modifications sent to me by WS.  And finally was sent a replacement stove from WS.  All at no cost to me.  Nothing worked.  So I finally asked that they take the stove back and they did.
> 
> ...




Did you try opening a window? I know it lets in the cold air.. but it does equalize pressure

My wife wants to know if you are married? She thinks I'm crazy for cutting a hole in the roof and putting in a trap door to make chimney cleaning easier


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## huauqui (Jan 19, 2017)

fire_man said:


> I'm extremely impressed with your tenacity to resolve this. Two stories up peeling shingles, not for me.



+1 to what fire_man said!


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## 3fordasho (Jan 19, 2017)

Curious what other owners are seeing for stove top temps on a regular basis?  Like I reported in my original posts in this thread mine will hit 400F and seldom over that.   I run two of the Woodstock stove top thermometers, located on the cast portion on both sides of the blocked top flue outlet.  They tend to read the same.  I only ask because another thread mentions 600F stove top temps on a start up load... must be throwing some serious heat at that  temp.   I can't get that on a reload on hot coals much less a start up load.  Wood has been split/stacked 3 years, then two years inside.   I just gave the cat the vinegar/distilled water wash and it performed slightly better for a couple burns then right back to 350-400ish top temps.


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## fire_man (Jan 19, 2017)

My WS thermometer is mounted dead center on the plate that covers the top-vent  opening (My PH is rear vent). It never peaks above 450F with 5 year seasoned Oak.


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## Boiler74 (Jan 19, 2017)

georgepds said:


> Did you try opening a window? I know it lets in the cold air.. but it does equalize pressure
> 
> My wife wants to know if you are married? She thinks I'm crazy for cutting a hole in the roof and putting in a trap door to make chimney cleaning easier



If only it had been as simple as opening a window. And yes, I'm single. I've got urinals in my bathrooms too!


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## Boiler74 (Jan 19, 2017)

huauqui said:


> +1 to what fire_man said!



Thanks to you both. Just trying to solve a problem.


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## Boiler74 (Jan 19, 2017)

Pics or it didn't happen.


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## weatherguy (Jan 19, 2017)

I like to run mine at 550, even lower in mild weather like we've been having but mine would run too 700 if I didn't watch it closely. When it's down around zero it'll go to 650 whether I want it to or not.


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## DBoon (Jan 19, 2017)

Jeez, I'm 5'-9" and 145 lbs. and I'm not fitting in the attic where that duct runs.


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## begreen (Jan 19, 2017)

Any duct run in the attic should be fully sealed and insulated. The temperature swings are too great there.


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## Boiler74 (Jan 19, 2017)

begreen said:


> Any duct run in the attic should be fully sealed and insulated. The temperature swings are too great there.



Where were you when I built 11 years ago?! Ha!

Totally agree by the way.


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## 3fordasho (Jan 19, 2017)

weatherguy said:


> I like to run mine at 550, even lower in mild weather like we've been having but mine would run too 700 if I didn't watch it closely. When it's down around zero it'll go to 650 whether I want it to or not.



Where do you run your air control at?  Mine is usually just cracked open a bit from the closed position, enough to maintain some flame in the box at all times.   On a hot reload, if there is plenty of secondary action I will shut it all the way down.   Pretty rare for it to go above 425f on the stove top.  At this temp it's heating the room just fine, just curious why others are seeing much higher temps.


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## begreen (Jan 19, 2017)

Boiler74 said:


> Where were you when I built 11 years ago?! Ha!
> 
> Totally agree by the way.


Sorry. My dad taught me that back in the 60s when installing HVAC systems. If space was an issue we would put in an insulating lining inside the ductwork.


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## fire_man (Jan 19, 2017)

3fordasho said:


> Where do you run your air control at?  Mine is usually just cracked open a bit from the closed position, enough to maintain some flame in the box at all times.   On a hot reload, if there is plenty of secondary action I will shut it all the way down.   Pretty rare for it to go above 425f on the stove top.  At this temp it's heating the room just fine, just curious why others are seeing much higher temps.



I don't think if I tried I could hit much above 600F on my stove - even fully loaded with bone dry oak and with major flames in the box. I'm not sure how others get their's so hot. I crack the air open just a bit past the closed position to keep flames in the box. I guess I never needed to run it much more but the few times I did, it never got much above 600F.


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## weatherguy (Jan 20, 2017)

3fordasho said:


> Where do you run your air control at?  Mine is usually just cracked open a bit from the closed position, enough to maintain some flame in the box at all times.   On a hot reload, if there is plenty of secondary action I will shut it all the way down.   Pretty rare for it to go above 425f on the stove top.  At this temp it's heating the room just fine, just curious why others are seeing much higher temps.


I have to shut it all the way, if it's below 30 it'll just keep climbing if I don't shut it down. My draft is strong. Think I'm going to put in a damper. 
Wherever you run it to maintain that temp try opening it just a hair higher to see if your temps climb. It's all related to draft, how long of a flue do you have?


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## trguitar (Jan 20, 2017)

I've only had my Progress for a month, but my temps are consistently around 450 - 500. I did get it to 650 when it was very cold out. I was testing out the air control, and had it open about 1/4 for the whole burn.

My MO so far is to engage the cat around 300 stove top, then shut the air half way, and then when the stove top reaches the temp I want, close the air completely. It seems to sit right at that temp for a few hours and never climbs higher.


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## fire_man (Jan 20, 2017)

trguitar said:


> I've only had my Progress for a month, but my temps are consistently around 450 - 500. I did get it to 650 when it was very cold out. I was testing out the air control, and had it open about 1/4 for the whole burn.
> 
> My MO so far is to engage the cat around 300 stove top, then shut the air half way, and then when the stove top reaches the temp I want, close the air completely. It seems to sit right at that temp for a few hours and never climbs higher.



How wide is your air while you are waiting for the temp to hit 300 before engaging, and how crazy are the flames before you cut back to 1/2 air after engaging?


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## trguitar (Jan 20, 2017)

It's wide open. The firebox is usually full of flame.

To be clear, when I hit 650 I had the air control wide open for the reload. Stove top was about 250 at that point. I loaded up with wood, and engaged the cat at about 300, and immediately put the air control down to 1/4 open.


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## BuckyBeaver524 (Jan 20, 2017)

I usually run my stove between 450 and 500 degrees.  That's where she likes to be.  But when she was newer (stove & cat), if I fully loaded her with nice dry oak/hickory, let stove top temp hit 300 with air wide open, then closed bypass and left alone for 10 minutes and then turned air all the way down, she would go into full cat burn mode with no flame and easily climb into the 600's.  Once I let it climb up to red line on the Woodstock gauge (675) and then opened the air 25% and she slowly came back down to 550.  Now that my cat is older and tired, and I never load her more then 60% full, 600's is a distant memory.  I have purchased a new cat from Woodstock and will install it next time I clean the stove.


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## weatherguy (Jan 20, 2017)

BuckyBeaver524 said:


> I usually run my stove between 450 and 500 degrees.  That's where she likes to be.  But when she was newer (stove & cat), if I fully loaded her with nice dry oak/hickory, let stove top temp hit 300 with air wide open, then closed bypass and left alone for 10 minutes and then turned air all the way down, she would go into full cat burn mode with no flame and easily climb into the 600's.  Once I let it climb up to red line on the Woodstock gauge (675) and then opened the air 25% and she slowly came back down to 550.  Now that my cat is older and tired, and I never load her more then 60% full, 600's is a distant memory.  I have purchased a new cat from Woodstock and will install it next time I clean the stove.


Keep a close eye on it when you put the new cat in, that's when mine took off close to 700, these new cats are different.


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## fire_man (Jan 20, 2017)

Reading these posts makes me think I baby my stove too much. Even WS mentioned I need to burn hotter. 

I have the kind of luck that the stove gets warped the one time I run hotter than normal .


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## fire_man (Jan 20, 2017)

I think draft makes a big difference on max stovetop Temp on these WS stoves. My Palladian consistently touches the red 675F mark (just for a little while) no matter how I run it. It's got the longest chimney (23 feet or so) with respect to any other stove I had and I'm glad I ovalized that liner - I think it pevented the  need for a damper.

I just barely hit the red mark every time I run that stove.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Jan 20, 2017)

weatherguy said:


> Keep a close eye on it when you put the new cat in, that's when mine took off close to 700, these new cats are different.



It seems to me that, in general, cats are relatively small and are likely the point of maximum restriction (other than the air inlet). A small change in the open area of the cat could significantly change the maximum burn temperatures achievable.

And yet I haven't seen aftermarket cat manufacturers (or OEM for that matter) provide relative specs for amount of restriction (ie, open area).


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## BuckyBeaver524 (Jan 20, 2017)

weatherguy said:


> Keep a close eye on it when you put the new cat in, that's when mine took off close to 700, these new cats are different.


Thanks for the heads up.


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## BuckyBeaver524 (Jan 20, 2017)

fire_man said:


> I don't think if I tried I could hit much above 600F on my stove - even fully loaded with bone dry oak and with major flames in the box. I'm not sure how others get their's so hot. I crack the air open just a bit past the closed position to keep flames in the box. I guess I never needed to run it much more but the few times I did, it never got much above 600F.


If 90% of the time the stove was meeting my heating demands at lower stove top temps, I would be just fine with that.  That's what sweatshirts are for. I say let her run where she and you are comfortable.  Mine usually cruises at 450 - 500 and for my climate that is perfect.   And she sips wood to boot.  The few times I needed more heat due to extreme o/s temps (single digits), I just loaded her up full on a warm stove, put her in full cat burn mode (no flames), and let her rip.  But I must say it was a little scary at 675 even though the stove handled beautifully.


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## 3fordasho (Jan 20, 2017)

It is connected to a 25' insulated liner in a brick fireplace chimney.  Previously installed to a 15 or 18'  Selkirk class A in an insulated chase.
The PH works better with the 25'er, it would clog the cat about every 3 weeks with the shorter set up, now it takes longer and only gets partially blocked.  



weatherguy said:


> I have to shut it all the way, if it's below 30 it'll just keep climbing if I don't shut it down. My draft is strong. Think I'm going to put in a damper.
> Wherever you run it to maintain that temp try opening it just a hair higher to see if your temps climb. It's all related to draft, how long of a flue do you have?


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## fire_man (Jan 20, 2017)

3fordasho said:


> The PH works better with the 25'er, it would clog the cat about every 3 weeks with the shorter set up, now it takes longer and only gets partially blocked.



I agree - My PH experienced cat clog issues on my 14' flue until extended to 16'.


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## weatherguy (Jan 20, 2017)

fire_man said:


> I agree - My PH experienced cat clog issues on my 14' flue until extended to 16'.


That's interesting, I thought it would be the other way around, maybe I'll leave mine alone. The old cat clogged much quicker than this new one, I haven't had to clean it yet.


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## BuckyBeaver524 (Jan 20, 2017)

weatherguy said:


> That's interesting, I thought it would be the other way around, maybe I'll leave mine alone. The old cat clogged much quicker than this new one, I haven't had to clean it yet.


A few years back some were saying the clogged cats were somehow related to not having the ash grate system.  Was that ever proved?


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## weatherguy (Jan 20, 2017)

BuckyBeaver524 said:


> A few years back some were saying the clogged cats were somehow related to not having the ash grate system.  Was that ever proved?


Not sure but I don't recollect anyone with the ash pan having a clogged cat. I don't think they know for sure but I've been out of the loop awhile. I know I was cleaning my old one every 2-3 weeks.


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## BuckyBeaver524 (Jan 20, 2017)

weatherguy said:


> Not sure but I don't recollect anyone with the ash pan having a clogged cat. I don't think they know for sure but I've been out of the loop awhile. I know I was cleaning my old one every 2-3 weeks.


I have the ash pan and a 21 ft chimney.  I only clean my cat at the end of the season and it is never clogged at all.


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## trguitar (Jan 20, 2017)

I can be the test. My PH is brand new. I don't have the ash pan, and I haven't had any cat issues yet. I checked it after 3 weeks, and it was clean as a whistle.


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## 3fordasho (Jan 20, 2017)

BuckyBeaver524 said:


> A few years back some were saying the clogged cats were somehow related to not having the ash grate system.  Was that ever proved?



I went from shorter chimney and no ash grate/pan to taller chimney and ash grate/ pan set up.  Too many changes at once to isolate but the cat stays much cleaner now.   The original install could almost completely plug the cat in three weeks.


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## fire_man (Jan 20, 2017)

Now that you guys mention it, I did add the ash pan system at the same time as I extended the flue - which coincided with no more cat clogs.

I do remember a couple years ago when lack of an ashpan system was being tied to cat clogs.

I don't miss those days.


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## weatherguy (Jan 20, 2017)

trguitar said:


> I can be the test. My PH is brand new. I don't have the ash pan, and I haven't had any cat issues yet. I checked it after 3 weeks, and it was clean as a whistle.


Sounds good, how long is your flue?


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## BuckyBeaver524 (Jan 21, 2017)

Do any of you guys have older PH stoves with the secondary plate warping problem?


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## trguitar (Jan 21, 2017)

weatherguy said:


> Sounds good, how long is your flue?



It's 20' at the most.


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## weatherguy (Jan 21, 2017)

trguitar said:


> It's 20' at the most.


Mines 26 with a rear vent, no ash pan.  If you've been burning over a month with no blockage yet you may be in the clear.


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## trguitar (Jan 22, 2017)

I cleaned out the stove this morning after one month burning 24/7, and the cat looked very clean. I didn't even do anything to it. I am also rear-vented.

The only issue I've seen so far is the backpuff where it smells like smoke. I actually don't mind it, and neither does my wife! We're both backpackers, so we don't mind a little campfire smell once in a while.


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## BuckyBeaver524 (Jan 22, 2017)

trguitar said:


> I cleaned out the stove this morning after one month burning 24/7, and the cat looked very clean. I didn't even do anything to it. I am also rear-vented.
> 
> The only issue I've seen so far is the backpuff where it smells like smoke. I actually don't mind it, and neither does my wife! We're both backpackers, so we don't mind a little campfire smell once in a while.


If you crack the air open and allow a very tiny flame, the backpuffing should stop.


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