# Help please, before i freeze to death



## xesvuli420 (Oct 18, 2015)

Oh man I am so exhausted trying to figure this crap out. Sorry for the language, but its getting old and cold, and I'm sick to my stomach with this stupid wood stove.

I decided a few weeks ago to convert from electric heat to wood heat... It has been a nightmare every step of the way.

This is my first stove, so I know nothing, but people have been telling me things along the way.

Long dramatic story shortened, I have a  wood stove that I cannot get to work with the door closed. Let me go over my set up.

1200sq ft Pleasent Hearth Pleasant Hearth 1,200 sq. ft. EPA Certified Wood-Burning Stove with small Blower-HWS-224172MH - The Home Depot
6' of 6" single wall stove pipe to the ceiling
7' of 6" doule wall stove pipe from the ceiling through the roof

Damper on stovepipe (people and owners manual say I don't need, but good to have for emergency)
Damper\air inlet on bottom of stove (that doesn't seem to do anything)

Here are some pictures...






I get a good fire going with dampers fully open, and close the door to a crack until I get a good red coal bed, Then I throw in some medium sized wood and let a good fire start. At this point I close the door, and the fire immediately starts to die. Sometimes it takes a few minutes, sometimes it may take 15... but end result is no flame! I open the door back a crack and the fire will come back. It will smolder all night until only coals are left, but I fear this may not be enough to keep us warm. Ive tried big pieces of wood, little pieces of wood, full fire box, almost empty firebox, Dampers open, Dampers closed, Dampers in between, one closed one open, vise versa, nothing seems to help except having door cracked. Per the thermometer, the max I can get 18" above the stove on the pipe is around 300 degrees. I can't even boil a pot of water sitting on top of the stove. I have been trying different things for 2 weeks now, and I am out of ideas. I am desperate for your help

I don't know if the draw is good or bad, but it is present. When I crack the door its like a vacuum cleaner is hooked to my stove. open the door a little wider and it calms down... but no smoke comes out of the stove as long as I have the stovepipe damper open.

Ive tried 6 month old wood
Ive tried year old wood
Ive tried 3 year old wood
Ive tried store bought wood

Here is the stove RIGHT NOW with 16 month seasoned wood in it...


As you can see the coal bed is red hot, and the logs are charred from where I had the door open... but shut the door, and BAM! Pitiful little wood stove!

Pictures and video are available if needed, just ask!

Thank you all so very very much!


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## jatoxico (Oct 18, 2015)

Hi and welcome. You are frustrated but your situation is not unusual for a new burner. If you stick around here for a bit and go through the problem step by step you will have success. 

The usual suspects are;


The wood. Must be <20% moisture which can take two years from the time it has been split and stacked. If you used store bought wood with same results then we can put that aside for now although wood quality is _almost always_ at least part of the problem.


Air control. I do not know your stove but the air control must be in the full open position and then _slowly_ lowered in stages every 15 min or so until the fire recovers and rarely, shut down completely. Fire needs air and should be brisk.


Draft. Your stack sounds a bit short (13'). Even though it's drafting with the door open you need enough draft to pull air through when the door is closed. Check your manual and see what the minimum is. Even so individual installs can require more or less chimney. It may be you need to add another section of pipe to get adequate draft.
Who installed the stove and where is it located in the house? Are there any trees or other obstructions like another roof?


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## Cynnergy (Oct 18, 2015)

It might be worth checking your chimney/cap and trying again with wood that is confirmed to be dry.  You could have clogged the cap/chimney using wet wood, which then caused  subsequent problems?


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## pdxdave (Oct 18, 2015)

Hate to say it, but it could well just be a crappy stove. I know many people on here will espouse that idea that any non/cat epa stove runs essentially the same, with size being the only significant difference, but my experience has shown this not to be true. Some stoves just dont burn great, regardless of the wood. See if you can find other reviews on the stove (not just from the home depot site).


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## BrotherBart (Oct 18, 2015)

What chimney cap is that?


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## saskwoodburner (Oct 18, 2015)

Just a few questions and thoughts. How far is that single wall pipe from the wall?

 You're running double wall stove pipe through the attic?

 How much Class A chimney do you have on top of the double wall pipe?

 Does it meet the 10-3-2? (I think that's the one) rule?

 I see some tall trees next to your house in the photo, how close and how much higher than the house?


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## kennyp2339 (Oct 18, 2015)

It's not the stove, my bet is the fuel. Your wood although it maybe old might still be to wet. Take a larger split of your oldest pieces. Make small splits out of it 2" wide, put those on the fire let it catch then close the door, you should have good flames, even if it's a little wet. Do you notice any hissing coming from the bigger splits in the stove? 
Don't give up, generally it's a fuel quality issue.


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## fire_man (Oct 18, 2015)

Your problem is so severe I don't think it's just a stack-draft issue. You may be  short on stack height, but I don't think this is your primary problem.

It sounds like something is wrong with the air control assembly. The control mechanism that allows air to enter the firebox is not working properly. You should confirm the plate controlling air entry is working and there is no blockage into the stove firebox.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2015)

Modern stoves need 15-16' minimum chimney. With insufficient draft they may perform poorly. As a test get 4ft of some cheap 6" vent pipe, remove the cap and shove the pipe, crimped edge down,  as a temporary extension pipe. Do this on a calm day so that the extension doesn't blow down.  We've seen a dramatic improvement with some stoves (like Napoleons) by increasing draft. These stoves have more restrictive or longer secondary air paths than some others. Milder outdoor temps will make the draft poorer.

See if that greatly improves the situation with your best wood or even better use some construction scrap 2x4s for test wood. If it does work then add at least 3ft more chimney and put a brace at 5ft above the chimney roof exit.

Also note, the upper rim of the storm collar needs to be silicone caulked where it meets the chimney.


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## kennyp2339 (Oct 18, 2015)

Hmmm, quick idea, open ur damper all the way, get everything glowing, crumble pieces of newspaper, throw them in close the door. If it's a air control issue the paper should just glow, It's important to have the damper / air control fully open, double check ur manual to make sure your pulling it the right way, sometimes all the way out closes the air. If the air is open the pieces should lite off and keep burning strong while the door is shut


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## jatoxico (Oct 18, 2015)

pdxdave said:


> Hate to say it, but it could well just be a crappy stove. I know many people on here will espouse that idea that any non/cat epa stove runs essentially the same, with size being the only significant difference, but my experience has shown this not to be true. Some stoves just dont burn great, regardless of the wood. See if you can find other reviews on the stove (not just from the home depot site).


Read a few reviews of the stove. Seems like a decent unit with a number of happy people. Something may not be connected correctly. I've heard of people finding that their air control knob wasn't functional because it became disconnected. I wouldn't blame the stove yet.


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## jatoxico (Oct 18, 2015)

begreen said:


> Modern stoves need 15-16' minimum chimney.


I found the manual online. Manufacturer says 15' from floor to cap so sounds like pipe is at the absolute minimum.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2015)

jatoxico said:


> I found the manual online. Manufacturer says 15' from floor to cap so sounds like pipe is at the absolute minimum.


Yes just the bare minimum. If this is a draft issue geography may also come into play. We've seen adding just 24" of pipe make a notable difference in some cases.

This situation happens every year at this time in new installs, sometimes several posts a week. 90% of the time it is either the wood or insufficient draft. But sometimes there are other mitigating factors like screen plugged with newspaper ash, or poor installation with large air leaks in the stove pipe or faulty air control linkage, etc..


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## Nick Mystic (Oct 18, 2015)

I can't offer any further advice on helping your stove burn better, but I did want to bring to your attention that you need to get some hearth protection for the front of your stove.  If you check your manual I suspect you'll find a section on clearance requirements. Most stoves require a minimum of 16" - 18" depending on where you live.  It won't be long before you have a hot coal flop out while you are reloading and then your laminate or wood floor is going to be damaged.  Or, worse yet, if the hot ember escapes your attention you might have a house fire. Good luck on getting the stove burning better.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2015)

Goo catch Nick, the hearth pad is definitely undersized and does not meet the mfg. requirements.


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## jatoxico (Oct 18, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> What chimney cap is that?


+1. Looks kind of restrictive from the pic. I wonder if the cap was popped if things would improve.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2015)

Looks like Supervent Deluxe rain cap


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## mass_burner (Oct 18, 2015)

OP, did you try with a load of compressed log/brick to rule out fuel?


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 18, 2015)

Hey guys! 

Thanks so much for the reply's. I would have been here sooner but this websites notification system is broken apparently. I added a 3' extension to my chimney, and it had absolutely zero noticeable effect. Flame still goes out with door shut. That really sucks because I was praying that was the issue. As for some of the other comments...

_Who installed the stove and where is it located in the house? Are there any trees or other obstructions like another roof?_
I did. It is in my living room upstairs. There are no trees or obstructions that I would think could be blocking any draft.

_How far is that single wall pipe from the wall?_
too close I know, but not relevant to the issue at hand. 

_You're running double wall stove pipe through the attic?_
Absolutely, with 2" clearence all the way up.

_How much Class A chimney do you have on top of the double wall pipe?_
I have stove hooked to 2 and a half joints of this...
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?productId=3307936

also using this kit...
http://www.lowes.com/pd_37624-85178-JSC6DCSP___?productId=3134415&pl=1&Ntt=supervent

with (now) 3 joints of this...
http://www.lowes.com/pd_37620-85178-JSC6SA3_0__?productId=3134409&Ntt=

and 1 extra 1' joint of above pipe.

_Does it meet the 10-3-2? (I think that's the one) rule_?
I would say it met it perfectly. almost exactly. See pictures above

I see some tall trees next to your house in the photo, how close and how much higher than the house? 
A bit higher, but a good bit away.

Do you notice any hissing coming from the bigger splits in the stove
No hissing whatsoever.

the upper rim of the storm collar needs to be silicone caulked where it meets the chimney
Absolutely, the picture was taken as I was caulking, and before I did the rim, and noticed I missed putting in the corner sheet metal screw =o)

Manufacturer says 15' from floor to cap so sounds like pipe is at the absolute minimum
I would say exactly the minimum. 3' stove, 5' single wall, 7' double wall.. exactly 15'... but now 18, and still no better

But sometimes there are other mitigating factors like screen plugged with newspaper ash
Heres whats odd to me. The instructional video says after you get your bed of coals, spread the coals in the middle of the floor of the stove into a trough for the air inlet to breath... I decided to check and see if maybe this was blocked, so I cleaned out the stove and removed  the floor bricks... and I didn't see ANY thing that would deliver air. At the back of the stove there is a 2" wide section in the middle that runs from the floor to the ceiling of the stove. Could this be the air chamber from the inlet? I couldn't find any sign of anything in the floor.

did you try with a load of compressed log/brick to rule out fuel
No not yet, I assumed that the wood bundle would be sufficient.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Oct 18, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> I decided to check and see if maybe this was blocked, so I cleaned out the stove and removed the floor bricks... and I didn't see ANY thing that would deliver air.



I don't know that stove, but it's possible that it's defective and you don't have a functional air inlet.  I suggest calling the manufacturer.  See what they have to say, and make sure you get either a really good description, or better yet, a picture of that air inlet system.


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## jatoxico (Oct 18, 2015)

Try and verify that the primary air control is functioning. Clean stove out add newspaper and light then close door. Open and close air and see if it makes a difference.


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 18, 2015)




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## xman23 (Oct 18, 2015)

Not that I know the stove, but there must be a primary air supply with a control lever to operate a air supply door. Find it and make sure it's working and not plugged up with some packing material. Also check the secondary air supply. Strange looking cap, but I assume it works as long as it's not plugged. Hot fires are a bit hard to get going until it gets cold out, due to weaker draft. That and wet wood, and can be tough to keep the wood burning. If what everything the brothers have suggested checks out. I think it's wet wood. Burn with the door cracked, refilling as you get room to do. Watch the stove top temp, Reload with a lots of small splits. Get 4 inches of coals. Once you get the stove hot the wet wood will be less of an issue with the door closed.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2015)

I still suspect low draft due to mild temps and minimal chimney. If so it will get better as the weather gets colder. 

What will not get better are the multiple install issues with too small hearth pad, too close clearances to the rear for the pipe and the stove. That rear pad on the wall is not a valid clearance reducer. If safety is not a concern then maybe it's better that the stove is running cool.


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 18, 2015)

-edit
nevermind


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## Wisneaky (Oct 18, 2015)

That cap looks very restrictive.


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 18, 2015)

yea I thought so too.. but thats what you get if you buy at lowes.


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## Wisneaky (Oct 18, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> yea I thought so too.. but thats what you get if you buy at lowes.


I think you should try it without the cap on once.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 18, 2015)

I took a close look at the design of the cap after BG identified it. Actually a well designed cap that with sufficient chimney height and draft should do a good job and not have the overfire problems that caps without wind guards have when the wind is blowing hard.

As to the stove, many folks have gotten good service from that lil stove for many years. Including one of the moderators here that has heated his shop with one for at least ten years.

That chimney is just short for a EPA stove to draft properly in anything but bone busting cold weather.


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## Blazing (Oct 18, 2015)

I just want to give the op respect for all he's done to remedy this problem. Good on you for being an informed buyer and doing your part. It may turn out to be wood, draft, or the stove but I feel your doing your best and a fine job at it to remedy this problem.


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## jatoxico (Oct 18, 2015)

I can't really tell from the video you posted. What was your impression, did the fire get more brisk with the air open?


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## JA600L (Oct 18, 2015)

Nobody mentioned this so I will. Is it possible that your house is too tight ? Have you tried leaving an outside door or window open? Maybe the pull is just strong enough with the door open and can't with it closed.


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## Wisneaky (Oct 18, 2015)

In that video you push that rod in which I assume is the damper. Are you supposed to shut it all the way? Does that stove have secondary burn tubes?


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 18, 2015)

I think you should try it without the cap on once.
I actually did for about 10 minutes. the girlfriend said it looked as if the flames got even smaller.

That chimney is just short for a EPA stove to draft properly in anything but bone busting cold weather.
Originally I totally was hoping this was the issue. however its height is exactly what the manufacturer calls for, AND I added 3 more feet and didn't get a sliver of a difference. I'm not going to say this CANT be my issue, but I sure can't seem to verify it is.

Thank you Blazing! So refreshing to hear, especially after hearing how unsafe I'm apparently being. I'm trying to do the best I can with the conditions I have. I'm just here hoping someone will spot something I haven't already questioned. Some people don't realize I have been trying my best to find the answer myself before I even came here. Either way I really appreciate the kind words

can't really tell from the video you posted. What was your impression, did the fire get more brisk with the air open?
My impression was that it didn't change at all. It did die down, but that was due to it being a piece of paper. I could record you guys a video of the same thing when its actually going, and opening and shutting the damper does nothing. Maybe if I can get it to proper operating temp it may, but with the puny little fire I have now, its useless.

As of now my next step is maybe more wood testing, and if that doesn't work, pulling the stove. I have spent mucho denero, and grown many grey hairs... I really want this to one day soon be worth the head and heartache.

thank you all for your suggestions! Keep em coming! =o)


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## BKVP (Oct 18, 2015)

Add a fresh air kit....


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 18, 2015)

Is it possible that your house is too tight
Excellent question. I read about this too. but unfortunately an open window just makes me colder lol

In that video you push that rod in which I assume is the damper. Are you supposed to shut it all the way? 
No not typically, I just wanted to show there was no difference from fully shut/open

Does that stove have secondary burn tubes?
Yes it does


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## electrathon (Oct 18, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> Is it possible that your house is too tight
> Excellent question. I read about this too. but unfortunately an open window just makes me colder lol


I read this thread earlier, came back to ask about the outside air or lack of it.  By your answer I am guessing you did not install it, correct?  A short chimney, no outside air and possibly wet wood all togeather add up poorly. Direct Connection to combustion air without the need for extra draft suction really helps if you have draft issues already.


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## Wisneaky (Oct 19, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> Is it possible that your house is too tight
> Excellent question. I read about this too. but unfortunately an open window just makes me colder lol
> 
> In that video you push that rod in which I assume is the damper. Are you supposed to shut it all the way?
> ...


Those secondary burn tubes should be rolling flames when the damper rod is shut. If it's not producing any flames from those tubes than I bet the wood isn't dry enough.


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2015)

If there is not enough draft then air will not be pulled through the secondary tubes. Construction scraps should be very dry.


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## JA600L (Oct 19, 2015)

The idea is not to leave the window open permanently.  Leave it open for 5 minutes or so then close the door.  See if it helps.


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## bholler (Oct 19, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> So refreshing to hear, especially after hearing how unsafe I'm apparently being. I'm trying to do the best I can with the conditions I have.


_I am sorry but when we see some very obvious and very serious safety issues they need to be pointed out.  I personally would not even work on that stove the way it is set up if i was called to your house.  It is dangerous.  Fix the clearance issues.  _


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## JA600L (Oct 19, 2015)

Nobody here is insulting you or trying to upset you.  Most of us came to this site with the same kind of safety issues. Thanks to the professionals on here who gently guide us in the right direction.  We all care about your problem and the safety of your family.  Safety and family come first.


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## colin.p (Oct 19, 2015)

Well I have similar issues right now, and it is entirely due to crappy wood. The wood I got in this winter (from a new supplier) is definitely not dry  enough and getting the wood to burn is a fight. However, I got 5 cords of it and hopefully a couple cords will be dry enough for next winter. 
I am planning on getting a tri-axle load to build on my long term wood supply. Interestingly, I have some oak that is notoriously hard to burn, but this stuff burns like it's soaked in gasoline (well kind of). 
I can understand the frustration of the OP, just I have had this problem for a few years now and fully experienced in burning issues (or the lack there-of) and in my case, it's always the wood quality. So don't give up, I know it's frustrating but it is a learning curve that you will figure out, and as far as the safety issues, they can be fixed as well.


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

Good morning everyone.

If there is not enough draft then air will not be pulled through the secondary tubes. Construction scraps should be very dry.
If this is true then maybe the draft is fine. Once I get the fire big and hot enough the secondary's do lite

The idea is not to leave the window open permanently. Leave it open for 5 minutes or so then close the door. See if it helps.
Yes I know, I was attempting to have a little humor. Opening the window does nothing

Ok so here is the picture of the wood I'm burning... I plan to get a meter, but do you guys think it looks like its seasoned enough? If not I'm going to have a hard time finding wood this year because this is what everyone is selling.


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## electrathon (Oct 19, 2015)

Without a meter the best test I know to do is to split the wood, lay the fresh cut piece against your cheek.  If it is cool, it is likely wet, the coolness is water.  Not very accurate, but a quick backyard answer.  I was splitting this weekend and have been playing with a meter, so far I have been wrong on every piece I guessed at.  I had a few pieces I would have sworn were dry (nice deep open cracks, felt dry, sounded dry hitting them togeather) and they were at the 22 plus moisture content.

Sometimes it is surprising haw the accumulation of all of the little problems can add up to things not working.  Improper air inlet, short chimney, wet wood...  Any one is a problem, the three together can keep things from working.  Plus the possibility of another unknown that has not surfaced yet.  Also, the colder it is outside the easier it is to get a draft going.


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## jatoxico (Oct 19, 2015)

A lot of that stuff looks like pretty big splits. My stove isn't happy with stuff like that unless it's good and dry and already hot. Re-splitting some of that stuff down may help since you'll have better air/surface area ratio. Won't be surprised if the rounds are not dry.


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## Grisu (Oct 19, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> If not I'm going to have a hard time finding wood this year because this is what everyone is selling.



Was that wood bought, too? In order to get it below 20% moisture content it needs to be split and stacked in a spot with lots of sun and wind. It is rare to find a firewood seller who has the time and space to do that. Still, they often advertise their wood as "seasoned" because it has been sitting in logs on their yard before being split sometimes at the day of delivery. A moisture meter will give you a final answer. I am also with jatoxico that wood still in rounds dries very poorly (at least in my hands). I now split everything down to 2" diameter branches at least once before stacking. 

I would try BeGreen's suggestion of lumber scraps or go for compressed wood logs like Envi-blocks, BioBricks etc. That will help in figuring out whether the wood is the problem.


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2015)

My guess is that once it really gets cold there will be just adequate draft and by then the wood will have dried out some more. At that point the wall behind the stove and stovepipe and the floor in front of the stove are going to get hot. What is the plan to fix these issues?


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## mellow (Oct 19, 2015)

Double wall to the ceiling support box will help draft and depending on how close it is clearances as well.


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

Re-splitting some of that stuff down may help since you'll have better air/surface area ratio
Ok I will try this today

Was that wood bought, too?
yes. I just have installed the stove, and hadn't the chance of splitting my own. next year will be a different story.

I'm off to buy some toys. a maul, a infared thermometer, and a moisture meter. I'll report my findings later!

Thanks everyone


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## Fastdonzi (Oct 19, 2015)

Have you tried Taking a lighter or something and putting it near the intake vents to see how hard they are sucking? seems if you can keep a fire with the door cracked then Not with the door closed youre not getting enough air thru your intake vents.. Maybe something in there blocking it?? this could be another test for the open window (tight house) check...


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## jatoxico (Oct 19, 2015)

I believe this is the manual for the stove.

http://www.ghpgroupinc.com/manuals/fireplace/WS_SMA(EN,FR,SP)_2014.pdf

One thing I just thought of is to make sure the baffles are installed correctly and didn't get shifted or knocked out of place during install or loading of wood. It happens and can really screw up the draft.


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## electrathon (Oct 19, 2015)

Reading the manual I found this:
IMPORTANT! Install baffle bricks and baffle
insulation before installing stove pipe on stove.
1. Place one baffle brick on each side of the tube running
horizontal into the baffle, covering the openings into
the firebox. To install bricks, place them through the
flue pipe outlet, down on top of openings, making sure
to close off openings completely.
2. Place insulation through flue pipe opening after bricks
are in place, covering the top of the bricks all the way
across from side to side of stove.
3. Installation of these items are central to the operation
of stove during burning.


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

Have you tried Taking a lighter or something and putting it near the intake vents to see how hard they are sucking
Seems the air inlet is accessed from behind and underneath (I assume where you hook the outside air intake if used.) I will try to get in there and check it, but its no much room to "see"

as for the bricks and baffle, yes theyre installed correctly. I personally installed every brick. I even remember first seeing the white insulation as I was covering the bricks thinking I can't believe this is supposed to go into a stove.

Let me ask you guys a question... would not "Lincoln logging" the wood have any negative effect on efficiency? Due to the shallowness of my box, I have to always lay the logs the same way.


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## matt1@ (Oct 19, 2015)

Do you have an air compressor? I think if i was in your shoes i would look inside the stove and locate where the primary air enters the firebox. Many stoves have a small box (doghouse) inside just below the door glass. Try blowing compressed air into that opening while operating the air control lever. You should notice a difference and this will also make sure the pathway is free for air to enter the stove. As others have said it sounds like the primary air passage may be blocked


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

thats a great idea! I did clean out the box and remove the bricks, but I couldn't find any inlet anywhere, I saw the column at the back going up and just figured that the air was coming from the top not the bottom. I can try and look again once it cools down. Thanks for the suggestion


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2015)

Sounds like a marginal chimney setup.


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## matt1@ (Oct 19, 2015)

Yes i agree if the air supply is free than draft is most likely weak due to height and somewhat warm outside temps


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2015)

We get many posts like this with first time installs of EPA stoves. Then magically the stove starts running better when the temps outside get into the 30s. Unfortunately that doesn't nothing for the clearance issues or anemic hearth pad.


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

You reckon I got the point yet? whats that the 3rd time youve said that? I got it man, I'll start working on the areas you can't seem to get over, but in the mean time can we please move on?


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2015)

Sorry, but safety takes precedence over getting the stove to burn hotter. The hotter the stove gets the more safety becomes issue #1. 

What is the plan to fix the clearance issues and hearth pad?


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

what do you suggest?


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2015)

The stove needs to be on an approx. 40" x 48" hearth pad. This can be DIY to save some bucks. How far is the stove from the wall?


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

8 inches from stove 10 from pipe.


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## kennyp2339 (Oct 19, 2015)

After looking over your pics again, I would add another 3ft length of class with a roof support bracket bringing the total height to 16ft.
I added a length of pipe to my stove setup and immediately noticed a difference for the better, The chimney is engine that drives the stove.


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## jatoxico (Oct 19, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> Let me ask you guys a question... would not "Lincoln logging" the wood have any negative effect on efficiency? Due to the shallowness of my box, I have to always lay the logs the same way.



Yes. Definitely stack the wood "airy". Especially with the warmer temps (low draft conditions) and cold during starts. I crib my wood all the time. Even in a hot stove, airflow around the wood helps a great deal.

BTW If you highlight the text you want to quote, a reply button will appear and you'll save some time. +1 on upgrading to meet stove and flue pipe clearances.


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## Wisneaky (Oct 19, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> 8 inches from stove 10 from pipe.


Your going to need to use double wall pipe. Add a couple 45s to get it away from the wall. Here is the requirements.


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

After looking over your pics again, I would add another 3ft length of class with a roof support bracket bringing the total height to 16ft.
I added a length of pipe to my stove setup and immediately noticed a difference for the better, The chimney is engine that drives the stove.
We tried this yesterday. Absolutely no difference from 15' to 18'


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

jatoxico said:


> BTW If you highlight the text you want to quote, a reply button will appear and you'll save some time. +1 on upgrading to meet stove and flue pipe clearances.


awesome trick! 



Wisneaky said:


> Your going to need to use double wall pipe. Add a couple 45s to get it away from the wall. Here is the requirements.


ok thank you, now back to the issue at hand...

I cut some wood smaller and that seems to be doing a lot. Stove is up to 350, fire is blazing, secondaries are firing... now lets see what happens when I add fuel.

to be continued.


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> After looking over your pics again, I would add another 3ft length of class with a roof support bracket bringing the total height to 16ft.
> I added a length of pipe to my stove setup and immediately noticed a difference for the better, The chimney is engine that drives the stove.
> We tried this yesterday. Absolutely no difference from 15' to 18'


Add up the lengths again. It sounded like the change was more like going from 13' to 16'. Of course if the wood is somewhat damp inside then added chimney will not help a lot. 

_6' of 6" single wall stove pipe to the ceiling
7' of 6" doule wall stove pipe from the ceiling through the roof_


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> 8 inches from stove 10 from pipe.


Oy, that is very close. The wall behind that pipe will be extremely hot when that stove is burning well for hours. The best solution is to change the stove pipe to double-wall stove pipe. It only requires 6" clearance. That will also improve draft a little. Another option is to install pipe shields on the pipe. These need to go right up to the the chimney support. This also will reduce clearance to 6".
http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Group-BM0133-Adjustable-Shield/dp/B000DZQR3Q
Or the entire back wall could get a proper NFPA 211 wall shielding. This needs to be ventilated in the rear with a 1" gap to the wall. A hearthpad directly attached to the wall is not recognized protection.

The stove clearance is more of a problem, especially from an insurance standpoint because the stove manual doesn't list the option to use a wall shield. The minimum clearance is 12" with single wall pipe, 11" with double-wall. One option is to put an offset made of two 45 deg. elbows to bring the stove out from the wall to make it legal. I would do this high up to kick the stove pipe away from the wall as quickly as possible. The pipe, if it remains single-wall, will still need shielding at top for the elbow.

PS: If you bring the stove to proper clearance then the black wall pad is not helping anything. Actually it isn't doing much even now. If the stove is moved to the proper clearance you might be able to turn it and the current hearth pad sideways to make full coverage between the two pads. What size are they?


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## jatoxico (Oct 19, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> After looking over your pics again, I would add another 3ft length of class with a roof support bracket bringing the total height to 16ft.
> I added a length of pipe to my stove setup and immediately noticed a difference for the better, The chimney is engine that drives the stove.
> We tried this yesterday. Absolutely no difference from 15' to 18'


This may turn out to be more of a wood and loading/operation issue but you never know when that last 1' will make the difference. Lot's of folks post how they had a night and day difference after going just a little more. If you can swing it I would add another section even though your test didn't show much of a difference. In the end it will most likely perform better more often. You're on the edge.

* If you add 45's you'll be extending the flue length some.


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

begreen said:


> Add up the lengths again. It sounded like the change was more like going from 12' to 15'.


manufacturer calls from the floor


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2015)

Experience calls from the stove, but I get your point. Cold weather and drier wood will make quite a difference if draft is just on the cusp.


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## jeff_t (Oct 19, 2015)

Might want to revisit that roof flashing installation, as well.


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## brad wilton (Oct 19, 2015)

Might be  that when you shut down air it closes completly, my stove has to be left about a 1/4" open other wise fire dies.


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## electrathon (Oct 19, 2015)

jeff_t said:


> Might want to revisit that roof flashing installation, as well.


I have bit my lip on that one.  It was the first thing I noticed when I saw the picture.  There is so much else done wrong, unsafe, I kind of figured a roof leak would be minor.


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## jatoxico (Oct 19, 2015)

electrathon said:


> I have bit my lip on that one.  It was the first thing I noticed when I saw the picture.  There is so much else done wrong, unsafe, I kind of figured a roof leak would be minor.


I think the OP said the pic was taken mid-job so may look different now.


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2015)

Examples of my stove sucks at this time of year abound:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/controlling-my-new-englander-madison.147371/#post-1988173


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## electrathon (Oct 19, 2015)

jatoxico said:


> I think the OP said the pic was taken mid-job so may look different now.


The flashing is nailed down on top of the shingles instead of being slipped under.  The flashing should only on top of the bottom row.  If is easier and faster to do it the way it is, but is prone to leaking.  To correct it he will likely need to pull shingles and re-roof the section around the flashing.  

Funny, the add for excel chimney (this site seems to love adds) is directly above what I am typing, it shows the flashing properly.


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

jatoxico said:


> I think the OP said the pic was taken mid-job so may look different now.


Yea people can't seem to read... they can comment, but can't read.



electrathon said:


> The flashing is nailed down on top of the shingles instead of being slipped under. The flashing should only on top of the bottom row.


I did exactly what the instructions said, whine to them.

you know I'm starting to doubt joining this forum was the right thing to do...

*edit- never mind, not gonna let some idiots ruin it for me. thanks for your help people who are actually trying to help


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## bholler (Oct 19, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> I did exactly what the instructions said, whine to them.
> 
> you know I'm starting to doubt joining this forum was the right thing to do...
> 
> *edit- never mind, not gonna let some idiots ruin it for me. thanks for your help people who are actually trying to help


I don't think the flashing is bad i would have tucked it under more courses yeah but as long as it is up past the slits in that course it should be fine.  But honestly i as a pro am not willing to help you figure out the problems with your stove until you acknowledge and have a plan to address the very serious safety issues with your install.   I am sorry if that bothers you but according to my professional code of ethics that is what i have to do.  Safety comes first then performance.


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2015)

Agreed. I would leave the flashing alone. It's not bad.


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## Wildo (Oct 19, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> Yea people can't seem to read... they can comment, but can't read.
> 
> 
> I did exactly what the instructions said, whine to them.
> ...




If you dive in head first you need to learn how to swim really quickly.  If you dip your toes and wade in slowly you can learn at your own pace--confusedshush.

Everyone is trying to help you keep your head above water.  You have a multitude of issues going on and nobody here wants you to learn the hard way.

This forum is the best resource I have found for woodburning.  Do I agree with everyone on here all of the time ?  HELL NO  Does everyone agree with me all of the time?  HELL NO  

The advice is sound and it is also opinionated,  I would respect it less if it wasn't opinionated because that shows our passion for this way of life.


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## pdxdave (Oct 19, 2015)

Unless the perceived code violations of the install are directly related to the stove performance, then I see no need to continue harping on about it, after a couple mentions it needs no further emphasis. Clearly it is a new install, and there are likely multiple measures that could be taken to bring it into code without substantial change to the setup. While it may be outside of code it has been well assembled with good materials, and the real-world safety risk under careful operation is extremely low. The OP has come with some legitimate concerns about the way the stove is operating and is looking for insight into what may be happening and how it might be solved. I think it best serves the interests of the forum to stay on this topic instead of repeatedly diverting to what is essentially a conversation-ending conclusion.


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## bholler (Oct 19, 2015)

pdxdave said:


> While it may be outside of code it has been well assembled with good materials, and the real-world safety risk under careful operation is extremely low.


They are in no way whatsoever very low they are in fact pretty high.  And i for one am not willing to ignore those very serious risks.  If it was 1/2" or even 1" to close i might look past it but this is way to close.  It is not well assembled at all it does not meet the clearance requirements.  And there are no perceived code violations there are several very clear ones


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

thank you pdxdave. I really appreciate your kind words as well as your attempt to help set this thread back on track. I realize there are some "passionate" opinions on here, and those are welcome, but the constant nitpicking and blatant insults as if I threw together some hack job are unfortunately getting to me. Commenting on my install and how shabby it is when you haven't even bothered to read that the PICTURES ARE BEFORE I FINISHED just shows how idiotic some people are. I don't appreciate that kind of presence on my thread. If youre not here to be friendly and offer help and advice, then please, find someone else to troll. I have some code issues yes, trust me I know, I've been told over and over and over and over about them... apparently to the point some think I don't deserve help until corrected well who cares! Don't help. I'll either meet some nice people who want to help (80% of you reading this) Or I won't... but I really don't care to hear any more of their garbage. ok, That's it, I'm done venting. I kept it PG, and I'm ready to move forward. Again thanks so deeply for all of you that are offering friendly advice, and especially to those of you who stand in defense of at least my intentions!! You are the ONLY reason I am still a part of this site!!


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## Michael6268 (Oct 19, 2015)

I really don't see anyone harping on you. They are stating fact. You have a serious fire hazard issue the way the stove is shown in the picture. Clearance is way too close, and floor protection is inadequate.. Even with the proper clearances, you would be amazed how hot walls will get. To the point where you can't even hold your hand on it sometimes. And that's with proper clearances. I think the reason some people are riding you is because it appears, (may not be the case), that you have no intention of fixing the serious fire hazard you have, and they are concerned.


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 19, 2015)

Really? Were on page 4 of people telling me the same thing over and over and over... Thats not harping to you? I really dont care anymore. this is my last post acknowleding ANYONE about clearences, codes, or any other subject that doesnt have anything to do with my lack of sustainability. 

I tested some wood. Some 12%, some 18%, some 25%, some more, some less... All from the same batch! Some of the oldest, blackest, crackediest pieces once split will say 30%, while some fresher looking pieces say 11%. If these readings are accurate there is NO WAY anyone can pick out wood by eye!

You know ive been around people with stoves alot in the past. To them its just open a door, throw in a piece, forget about it... To me its much much more complicated, and getting close to not worth the trouble. good thing im not a quitter (yet)


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## Michael6268 (Oct 19, 2015)

Well, with that, you confirmed my suspicions. You don't have any intent of correcting anything. And you may not acknowledge us here, but you can acknowledge the fire company, the insurance company, and the police, when your house burns down.


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## Bigsby (Oct 19, 2015)

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.


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## spirilis (Oct 19, 2015)

I think everyone has missed one of the elephants in the room-

The flue pipe damper.  I see this install has a key damper in the stovepipe.  These have no purpose in an EPA certified stove install except as a potential tool for limiting a chimney fire or runaway fire (both might be controlled by covering the Outdoor Air Kit inlet though).

Keep that pipe damper in the FULLY OPEN position at all times, or consider removing it.  Just the tiny bit of turbulence it adds to an otherwise "straight run" might reduce your effective chimney draft.

As for the video, anyone experienced can say that wood simply doesn't change its burn state all that fast.  You're going back and forth with that damper as if it should make a difference... It won't.  Make a change to the stove's primary air damper (that's most likely what that is btw and it's the only "damper" control you should have) and wait 5-10 minutes before making judgment about what changes have occurred with the fire.

Lastly, EPA certified non-catalytic stoves work in part by having an insulated baffle up above the burn tubes that partly involve themselves in the fire- not chemically, but thermally.  When that baffle, and the stainless burn tubes get super hot, they radiate intense heat downwards back onto the burning wood to help it sustain a clean burn and prevent it from smoldering.  Double-check the baffle install and make sure the insulation blanket looks OK.  To work in concert with this design, "the best defense is a good offense" comes to mind- when starting your fire be sure to burn something on top of the wood load that will burn fast & hot to get the baffle superheated as quickly as possible.

The common way to do this is called a "top-down" fire, and as a new owner of an EPA certified non-catalytic stove myself, I can vouch for its effectiveness.


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## sequoia (Oct 19, 2015)

jatoxico said:


> BTW If you highlight the text you want to quote, a reply button will appear and you'll save some time


Cool


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## spirilis (Oct 19, 2015)

Another "strategy" for preheating the baffle early on is to prefer making your kindling pile "high" rather than "wide" - while you don't want it TOUCHING the baffle (they're sometimes quite fragile) it is true that having burning wood in very close proximity to the baffle heats it up hotter than any flame could.


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## pdxdave (Oct 19, 2015)

Michael6268 said:


> Well, with that, you confirmed my suspicions. You don't have any intent of correcting anything. And you may not acknowledge us here, but you can acknowledge the fire company, the insurance company, and the police, when your house burns down.


That is ridiculous. Where did he say he doesn't intend to correct those issues?

The way many of you are speaking towards him is extremely condescending and immature. If I were a new poster I'd probably not be coming back. I'd suggest speaking to people on the forum as you would in person- that means to make points and move on with the conversation, not continually harrass over something that has already been acknowledged.


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## oldoak (Oct 19, 2015)

Nick Mystic said:


> I can't offer any further advice on helping your stove burn better, but I did want to bring to your attention that you need to get some hearth protection for the front of your stove.  If you check your manual I suspect you'll find a section on clearance requirements. Most stoves require a minimum of 16" - 18" depending on where you live.  It won't be long before you have a hot coal flop out while you are reloading and then your laminate or wood floor is going to be damaged.  Or, worse yet, if the hot ember escapes your attention you might have a house fire. Good luck on getting the stove burning better.



As I'm not experienced enough for the woodstove problem, my .02 cents is to suggest putting a dab of roof caulking on each nail head so snow/water will not rust out nail and penetrate roof causing a leak.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 19, 2015)

Folks look at the pic in the first post in the thread. It is under the shingles and he caulked the nail heads.


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## spirilis (Oct 19, 2015)

Oh and another tip- Every time you open the door, you're cooling down at least part of the firebox.  When I light a fire I get the splits, kindling and tinder (newspaper + a quarter "supercedar" firestarter) ready, squirt some firestarter gel on the tinder, light it off and close the door right away.  Primary air damper open fully.  Don't touch the door handle.  Let it burn and see how it goes.  You're trying to charge up a thermal battery here (baffle + firebricks) to make it to the "promised land" of fancy pretty non-catalytic clean burning and don't want to sabotage yourself by introducing a rush of comparatively cold air by opening the door.


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## Kingdoc (Oct 19, 2015)

Maybe it's just me but it seemed like his air control moved very easy and was very quiet. most of the time moving an air control sounds like a brick on a cheese grater. Could it be that his air control rod came lose from the metal plate that chokes off the air supply and it is now stuck in the closed position?


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## Grisu (Oct 19, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> I tested some wood. Some 12%, some 18%, some 25%, some more, some less... All from the same batch! Some of the oldest, blackest, crackediest pieces once split will say 30%, while some fresher looking pieces say 11%. If these readings are accurate there is NO WAY anyone can pick out wood by eye!



That's why we usually recommend to new members to dry their own wood. When it has been sitting for 2 to 3 years split and stacked in a sunny and windy spot, raised from the ground and top-covered it is almost surely below 20%. Testing a few pieces is then often enough to tell how dry the rest is. 

The wood you got may have been sitting in a big heap somewhere with the outer pieces now being dry while anything inside still wet. Maybe get a helper and start splitting everything again. Have him/her measure the moisture content and throw the wood in piles of below and above 20% moisture. Then re-stack for the next winter what needs to dry further. Supplement the dry wood with compressed wood logs like Envi-blocks or Bio Bricks. Pallets are also an option: Often free and dry but a PITA to cut up and avoid painted to chemically treated ones.


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## Michael6268 (Oct 19, 2015)

pdxdave said:


> That is ridiculous. Where did he say he doesn't intend to correct those issues?



The fact that he hasn't once addressed how or if he's going to address the issues, and that he said I quote - "I don't care anymore" would lead most to assume he is not concerned or going to address the hazards. Also why would one concentrate on burn characteristics if they intend to move the stove and pipe out to proper clearances? That would change burning characteristics yet once again.


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## Woody Stover (Oct 19, 2015)

Kingdoc said:


> Could it be that his air control rod came lose from the metal plate that chokes off the air supply and it is now stuck in the closed position?


If memory serves from seeing one in a farm store a while back, I think you can see from under the stove the rod and the flap that covers the air intake, and see it work as you move the rod.
As far as the "harping" on safety issues, these folks are just looking out for your best interest. If you burn your house down and your insurance company determines that the cause is improper installation, and doesn't pay, you'll have a tough time keeping warm without a house, even if your stove is working great.


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## FPX Dude (Oct 19, 2015)

I just watched your video on "damper", with a fire going that good when I change air control either full open or full closed I get an immediate response in flames and I don't seem to see that in yours.  From the descriptions you've provided and all the things you've tried it seems like something is not connected correctly, or clogged from shipping/packing etc., as others have stated.  Double-check, triple-check, or have a third party or sweep check it out for proper air control as you mention.


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## bholler (Oct 20, 2015)

pdxdave said:


> That is ridiculous. Where did he say he doesn't intend to correct those issues?


He has yet to say he is going to correct any of the issues.  Which is why i have not given any advice to him yet


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## TheRambler (Oct 20, 2015)

People keep mentioning it because he has not acknowledged the problems and said he was going to fix them. People can't in good faith give advice to someone to get their stove burning hotter when in doing so may cause an unsafe condition(ie fire).


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## Chimney Smoke (Oct 20, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> I tested some wood. Some 12%, some 18%, some 25%, some more, some less... All from the same batch! Some of the oldest, blackest, crackediest pieces* once split will say 30%, *while some fresher looking pieces say 11%. If these readings are accurate there is NO WAY anyone can pick out wood by eye!


This definitely confirms one of the potential issues.  Wood doesn't dry until it is split, it just starts to rot in the round.


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## mwhitnee (Oct 20, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> I think you should try it without the cap on once.
> I actually did for about 10 minutes. the girlfriend said it looked as if the flames got even smaller.
> 
> That chimney is just short for a EPA stove to draft properly in anything but bone busting cold weather.
> ...




I agree the fire did not seem to change really at all, especially for adjusting it as fully as you did.  Maybe the air control is disengaged/unhooked somehow.  Is there a way to check this with the stove right where it is?  Does if feel "hooked up"?

Cracking a window would rule out a house that was too tight.

And yes great job trying to diagnose your issue.  I feel we will all get it right soon!


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## kennyp2339 (Oct 20, 2015)

Hmmm, I'm still thinking this is a wood quality issue, with a short chimney problem. I don't think there's anything wrong with the stove itself. 90% vs 10%, to the OP, do you life near a tractor supply? or near a lumber yard? I would try compressed wood bricks and see if that clears anything up, also before you do anymore tests, run a chimney brush down your flue, if its poor wood your burning you may already have some build up restricting what little draft you have.


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## KindredSpiritzz (Oct 20, 2015)

my moneys on the air control lever being disconnected under the stove. Sure sounded loose in his video.


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## mwhitnee (Oct 20, 2015)

I think the poor guy is just trying to make sure the stove is going to work before he sets everything up as it should be. At this point I would want to know that it worked before I spent a lot of energy and money on making the setup perfect.

Yes he should have done things differently when setting up the stove, most of us know that.

I started off with a Defiant 1A in my new house and after researching it found the side clearances were not met.  I put Durock there all winter, and yes it helped although obviously it wasn't ideal. I needed the old stove and the heat, and money was tight.  I was very careful. I bought a new stove with proper clearances- getting a lot of help from the people here- and couldn't be happier with it.

People here are extremely knowledgeable and a couple who have made their opinions apparent are some of the most knowledgeable from what I've seen.  All I can say is many will try to help you if you hang around but be really careful.


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## ToltingColtAcres (Oct 20, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> you know I'm starting to doubt joining this forum was the right thing to do...
> *edit- never mind, not gonna let some idiots ruin it for me. thanks for your help people who are actually trying to help



The professionals on this forum are concerned, first and foremost, with your life. The last thing they want to do is contribute to you burning your house down, or worse, killing yourself or your family in the process.

Might want to put that in perspective and take their advice to heart.


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## tinman1 (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm no expert , I also have a small insert , it's the osburn 1800. This is  my 2 nd season I'm  starting with burning and had problems also , so my evaluation with your problems is that you have multiple problems. First it's not cold enough for a great draft to take place ! 2 nd  :you need smaller splits , play around with pallet skids busted up , this stuff is supper dry , and 3rd: your wood is wet  Us beginners must use a meter !! No ifs or butts  And last thing , like others mentioned before , that stack looks to short ! But I would make that be the last on the list for now. Best of luck


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## tinman1 (Oct 20, 2015)

tinman1 said:


> I'm no expert , I also have a small insert , it's the osburn 1800. This is  my 2 nd season I'm  starting with burning and had problems also , so my evaluation with your problems is that you have multiple problems. First it's not cold enough for a great draft to take place ! 2 nd  :you need smaller splits , play around with pallet skids busted up , this stuff is supper dry , and 3rd: your wood is wet  Us beginners must use a meter !! No ifs or butts  And last thing , like others mentioned before , that stack looks to short ! But I would make that be the last on the list for now. Best of luck


I accidentally added those faces. Sorry


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## Woody harrelson (Oct 20, 2015)

tinman1 said:


> I accidentally added those faces. Sorry


Liar


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 20, 2015)

spirilis said:


> I think everyone has missed one of the elephants in the room-
> 
> The flue pipe damper. I see this install has a key damper in the stovepipe. These have no purpose in an EPA certified stove install except as a potential tool for limiting a chimney fire or runaway fire (both might be controlled by covering the Outdoor Air Kit inlet though).


Absolutely correct. As stated in the 1st post it is not needed at all. However when youre new to something you tend to ask others for advice. This is what happens when you ask a store associate what all you need. The funny part is the second everything was finished, I looked at my new setup and smiled... until I looked on the kitchen table and saw the damper was still in the bag. chit! So two of my helpers had to lift and hold the chimney up while I removed the joint closest to the stove and installed the damper. After all that, I later saw it was not needed.

Also I do keep the damper open. I was also going to ask on here when its bed time CAN I close this any to maximize my burn (especially since the bottom damper does nothing)



spirilis said:


> As for the video, anyone experienced can say that wood simply doesn't change its burn state all that fast. You're going back and forth with that damper as if it should make a difference... It won't.


I don't understand this. If you close the only inlet, the firs should respond almost instantly. It does with the door, and it did with the stove damper (before I knew not to use it). Can you explain your thinking on this?



spirilis said:


> When that baffle, and the stainless burn tubes get super hot, they radiate intense heat downwards back onto the burning wood to help it sustain a clean burn and prevent it from smoldering


Absolutely! And I have seen it do its thing many times. However the key is getting a hot roaring fire, which sometimes I cannot do with apparently this wood. I normally hover around 300 with a lot of my wood, but ever so often Ill get lucky with a piece and the stove will hit 450-500. It gets so hot (probably normal, but new to me) that I turn on the blower to spread the heat. I also keep feeling the wall, and even when the stove hit its highest of 520, I could hold my hand on the wall. Point is at this temp the secondaries are firing like crazy. Beautiful!



sequoia said:


> Cool


Yea definitely something vbulletin needs



pdxdave said:


> The way many of you are speaking towards him is extremely condescending and immature. If I were a new poster I'd probably not be coming back.


Very true! If it weren't for members like you man I would've peaced out a long time ago. The problem is you have these guys that are here everyday and they feel like some kind of authority figure, and they obviously can't handle that. Its not because of what they're saying, but how they go about getting their point across. And if you don't ACKNOWLEDGE that theyre right they keep on and on and on until you do. Kinda like children. These people can't handle not getting their way, so they pout and make comments until someone acknowledges them. This is why I'm done with their bullshit. They have mentioned the issues I need to address over and over and over, I have acknowledged that I see their concerns, but until I satisfy them with what they want they're either going to not help, make stupid comments, or both! Too bad for them I will be moving on without them and will be ignoring any more of their chit! Not because its wrong, but because we've already been there and done that too much already. (Not to mention I just don't like them). So moving forward I need all the people like you to help me and just ignore any more of their messages. Hopefully they will get pissed off and leave the thread. Right or wrong theres a way to talk to people and I just don't want that kind of attitude here. Now moving on



oldoak said:


> As I'm not experienced enough for the woodstove problem, my .02 cents is to suggest putting a dab of roof caulking on each nail head so snow/water will not rust out nail and penetrate roof causing a leak.


Thank you for your .02 cents. But may I ask how you got this opinion? I mean the only picture of my flashing shows the red silicone. You're not the only one commenting without noticing whats already written, but I want to make sure I couldn't do anything more to help cut down on them.

Thank you brotherbart for helping people see more clearly



spirilis said:


> Oh and another tip- Every time you open the door, you're cooling down at least part of the firebox. When I light a fire ...


That's a great point! However with my tiny stove, If I don't leave it open long enough to get a good fire, it will go out completely. One there are coals thats a different story, but when first making the stove thats impossible... HOWEVER now that you mentioned this I bet I can keep a fire hotter by not opening the door so often. Again GREAT advice!



Kingdoc said:


> Maybe it's just me but it seemed like his air control moved very easy and was very quiet. most of the time moving an air control sounds like a brick on a cheese grater. Could it be that his air control rod came lose from the metal plate that chokes off the air supply and it is now stuck in the closed position


I can definitely feel something hooked to the rod, but I can also feel there is alot of horizontal and vertical play in whatever it is. Its no where close to a seal, maybe an obstruction, but not much of that.



Grisu said:


> That's why we usually recommend to new members to dry their own wood. When it has been sitting for 2 to 3 years split and stacked in a sunny and windy spot, raised from the ground and top-covered it is almost surely below 20%. Testing a few pieces is then often enough to tell how dry the rest is


Thats a great instruction,but how to new members... Its kind of hard to know in advance that youre gonna be a stove owner until you are. My problem is I did it in September so I have to rely on purchased wood. Moving forward I will definitely be following this method, And great advice on your suggestions



FPX Dude said:


> I just watched your video on "damper", with a fire going that good when I change air control either full open or full closed I get an immediate response in flames


This is what I expect too, but some say it won't happen. I can't say for sure, but I know mine does nothing, and if you have to wait 15 minutes then who knows because then the amount of fuel is changed either way so you can't compare it.. or at least I cant.



Chimney Smoke said:


> This definitely confirms one of the potential issues.


I agree.



mwhitnee said:


> I agree the fire did not seem to change really at all, especially for adjusting it as fully as you did. Maybe the air control is disengaged/unhooked somehow. Is there a way to check this with the stove right where it is? Does if feel "hooked up"?
> I agree with this too. It does feel hooked to something?!? One thing to note is alot of the reviews of this stove have people complaining that the damper is useless. Maybe a design defect.
> 
> Cracking a window would rule out a house that was too tight.
> ...


Thank you for the kind words, Sure glad to have people like you around! Couldn't do it without you!



kennyp2339 said:


> 90% vs 10%,


???



kennyp2339 said:


> I would try compressed wood bricks and see if that clears anything up, also before you do anymore tests, run a chimney brush down your flue, if its poor wood your burning you may already have some build up restricting what little draft you have


I will definitely be trying this just to verify its the wood. I'm thinking it is, even though it looks exactly like everyone say is seasoned. Do you really think I will have a creosote build up in 2 weeks?



KindredSpiritzz said:


> my moneys on the air control lever being disconnected under the stove. Sure sounded loose in his video


definitely loose, thats for sure, but I'm not so sure its disconnected... I'm leaning towards poor design, but we will see soon enough if and when I try to get proper fuel to burn. HAHAHA Side note, when I was in college, my dog had its leg broke and I didn't have any money to get it fixed. I asked my dad for the money and he gave me his credit card. I took my dog to the vet and had its leg reset and wrapped. A month later he called me mad as hell and asked me why I lied to him about my dog. Puzzled I asked him to explain, and he said he got his credit card receipt and the money I spent was to a place called Kindred Spirits... He thought that sounded like a bar Hahaha takeaway from this story is theres a veterinary office in orlando with your screen name! Hahaha (laughing at my father not your name)



mwhitnee said:


> I think the poor guy is just trying to make sure the stove is going to work before he sets everything up as it should be. At this point I would want to know that it worked before I spent a lot of energy and money on making the setup perfect.


DING DING DING We have a winner folks!

Again its NOT the message I have a problem with, Its the delivery of the message I have a problem with, Its the acting like my work is purposely shabby that I have a problem with, its refusing to offer other advice unless I meet your demands of a correctional plan I have a problem with, Its being an poophead and just making condescending and UNNECESSARY comments I have a problem with. Listen people, help or not, but I'm not going to discuss this crap anymore, i'm not going to defend myself anymore, and I'm not going to respond to anymore people trying to tell me that everyone here has good intentions,,.

I ALREADY KNOW ALL THIS THATS NOT WHAT I HAVE  ISSUES WITH!!

Are we clear yet? Can we move on? Is the dead horse-kicking over yet? Doesn't matter because I know its not!


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 20, 2015)

tinman1 said:


> I accidentally added those faces. Sorry


HAHA its the 3x! that does it. I did it earlier too... but where is the post you are quoting? I haven't seen it


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 20, 2015)

Woody harrelson said:


> Liar


I loved you on cheers!


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## Woody harrelson (Oct 20, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> I loved you on cheers!


 thanks brother


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## spirilis (Oct 20, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> I don't understand this. If you close the only inlet, the firs should respond almost instantly. It does with the door, and it did with the stove damper (before I knew not to use it). Can you explain your thinking on this?


So the door and the pipe damper make huge changes to the airflow of the firebox; door fans the flames with cool air (and a lot of it), pipe damper basically stops the whole airflow (except for a tiny bit that leaks through holes/gaps in the damper).  Both of those would cause rather immediate changes in the wood's burn characteristics.  They're both 12 pound sledgehammers so to speak.

The stove damper (primary air control down below) only makes changes to the primary air, which usually comes down from the top of the stove glass (the "airwash" that keeps the glass relatively clean) into the fire.  What's not being adjusted here is the secondary air, which comes out of the burn tubes/holes in the top of the firebox, and EPA stoves are not meant to have that adjusted anyhow.  So the change you're making with the primary air is more subtle (the rubber mallet), and you might not notice a huge change in the fire's appearance at first until 5-10 minutes later when everything's established a new "equilibrium".  For one, air coming from the secondary tubes that is relatively cool (maybe the rear burntube for example) might be sinking down in the firebox to fan the wood similar to what primary air does, and with the primary air closed down there will be more air moving through the secondary burn tubes anyhow (same amount of chimney draft "vacuum" being pulled, with primary air choked off all the vacuum is being met with secondary burntube airflow).  So it's more of a rebalancing adjustment, and only somewhat of a restriction.

To answer the other question about using the pipe damper later on in the burn, no, it won't help.  Since it arrests the airflow by a large amount (primary & secondary airflow) it'll kill off any clean-burn features of the stove (these do depend on the coals & flame burning hot enough, and that is in part determined by how fast air gets pulled through the stove & wood) so the wood just smolders away, flames gone, creosote building up in your chimney (and a future chimney- and possibly house-destroying chimney fire in the process of being built).  If it's all the way down to coals, sometimes you can get away with using one of those dampers but bear in mind you have a big mass of carbon monoxide-producing solid fuel in your stove with a tight restriction on its only way of getting out of your house.  Not a good idea IMO.

Bear in mind with the primary air control closed all the way, there is very little air touching the coals anyway, just enough to keep them lit but only that.  So closing the primary air control pretty much accomplishes that goal (of keeping the coals lit and extending the burn) anyhow.  When you go to reload the stove on a still-hot coalbed, you rake the coals closer to the front and open the primary air all the way (so the airwash primary air fans the coals and gives them their vigor back).

The general procedure for starting a cold stove is to keep the primary air control open fully until the stovetop reaches 500F or so... then turn it back in increments, say 1/3rd of the primary air damper rod's travel at a time, giving 5-10 minutes between each adjustment to let the fire reach a new "equilibrium".  With good secondary combustion happening, eventually you can close the primary air completely and it'll continue the light show with very lazy, ghostly-looking bluish-orange flames dancing around between the wood and baffles.


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## tinman1 (Oct 20, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> HAHA its the 3x! that does it. I did it earlier too... but where is the post you are quoting? I haven't seen it


My post or woodys ?


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## xesvuli420 (Oct 20, 2015)

spirilis said:


> So the door and the pipe damper make huge changes...


gonna read this 2 0r 3 times to get all this valuable information out Thank you



tinman1 said:


> My post or woodys


yours, I was talking about the accidental smileys. I learned earlier in the post history that 3 !'s together are code that invokes those smileys you accidentally posted. I laughed because I to accidentally made smileys in a post when I didn't intend to


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## bholler (Oct 20, 2015)

I dont see any problem with the damper as long as you keep it open but with the height of your chimney i don't think it will ever be needed.  But it really will not hurt anything keeping it there and open other than the fact that it will make it harder to clean later.  I do totally agree that the fire will not respond very fast in most cases to adjusting the air.  In the video i am not surprised there was no change as fast as you changed it back.  I will apologize if i came off to strong and offended you that was not my goal.  But as a chimney professional i am obligated to tell people when i see a potential hazard.  But i will let it go now i just hope you do in fact correct the issues.   I would suggest taking the advice of one of the other posters and trying some compressed logs.  If they do not work then you know it is not the wood and we can move on to another issue.


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## bholler (Oct 20, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> The problem is you have these guys that are here everyday and they feel like some kind of authority figure, and they obviously can't handle that.


I do want to respond to that though it is not because i am here that i feel that i am a bit of an authority on the subject it is the many years of experience in the field and all of the training and testing i have done.  I am not just some guy on the internet making this stuff up as i go along.  If you choose not to heed our advise that is on you.  But i am not going to loose my certification by not following the code of ethics.  Which requires me to make you fully aware of potential safety issues.  Sorry to bring it up again i just wanted to be clear on my motives


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## batchman (Oct 20, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> And if you don't ACKNOWLEDGE that theyre right they keep on and on and on until you do. Kinda like children.



Honestly what this whole aspect of the dialogue is reminding me of is teaching a young person to drive - they're focused on going faster, the instructor is trying to point out the TRAIN, and the student is the one getting mad.

Your post title seeks help from freezing to death, but if the help you seek works you may very quickly be threatened from the opposite problem.  It keeps getting mentioned because, 'yeah - a train, big deal' is exactly how you're coming across...

If I'm not mistaken multiple responders here are in the field and if they sound like that driving instructor I don't blame them at all - it's what they do.

Best of luck, and OBTW my money is on a problem with the draft control, possibly just technique.  It took me a while to gain "the touch" on my insert and for me there is good half to a full minute's lag between cause and effect - it's not like a gas knob.

Cheers,
- Jeff


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## edge-of-the-woods (Oct 20, 2015)

Grisu said:


> Was that wood bought, too? In order to get it below 20% moisture content it needs to be split and stacked in a spot with lots of sun and wind. It is rare to find a firewood seller who has the time and space to do that. Still, they often advertise their wood as "seasoned" because it has been sitting in logs on their yard before being split sometimes at the day of delivery. A moisture meter will give you a final answer. I am also with jatoxico that wood still in rounds dries very poorly (at least in my hands). I now split everything down to 2" diameter branches at least once before stacking.
> 
> I would try BeGreen's suggestion of lumber scraps or go for compressed wood logs like Envi-blocks, BioBricks etc. That will help in figuring out whether the wood is the problem.



A moisture meter is an absolute necessity.  In my experience, many sellers are peddling wood that hasn't been split and left to season properly, but they don't go out of their way to tell you that.  The only reliable way to know if your wood is dry or not is to use the moisture meter.  Otherwise it's too much guesswork.  You'd be surprised at how "dry" your wood seems to be, and then the reading you get off the meter.  This was a big part of the trouble I had trying to burn last year as a newbie.


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## edge-of-the-woods (Oct 20, 2015)

Grisu said:


> That's why we usually recommend to new members to dry their own wood. When it has been sitting for 2 to 3 years split and stacked in a sunny and windy spot, raised from the ground and top-covered it is almost surely below 20%. Testing a few pieces is then often enough to tell how dry the rest is.
> 
> The wood you got may have been sitting in a big heap somewhere with the outer pieces now being dry while anything inside still wet. Maybe get a helper and start splitting everything again. Have him/her measure the moisture content and throw the wood in piles of below and above 20% moisture. Then re-stack for the next winter what needs to dry further. Supplement the dry wood with compressed wood logs like Envi-blocks or Bio Bricks. Pallets are also an option: Often free and dry but a PITA to cut up and avoid painted to chemically treated ones.



This is exactly what I had to do last year.  You might have to give up on that wood for this year, and burn bio-bricks or something like that.  

Every stove should come with a brochure on how to season wood and identify moisture content.


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## bholler (Oct 20, 2015)

edge-of-the-woods said:


> Every stove should come with a brochure on how to season wood and identify moisture content.


Absolutely and most stove shops don't even mention it either


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## edge-of-the-woods (Oct 20, 2015)

spirilis said:


> The general procedure for starting a cold stove is to keep the primary air control open fully until the stovetop reaches 500F or so... then turn it back in increments, say 1/3rd of the primary air damper rod's travel at a time, giving 5-10 minutes between each adjustment to let the fire reach a new "equilibrium".  With good secondary combustion happening, eventually you can close the primary air completely and it'll continue the light show with very lazy, ghostly-looking bluish-orange flames dancing around between the wood and baffles.



This is spot-on.  100%.  This also goes for rekindling a fire when your wood isn't that dry.


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## tinman1 (Oct 20, 2015)

xesvuli420 said:


> gonna read this 2 0r 3 times to get all this valuable information out Thank you
> 
> 
> yours, I was talking about the accidental smileys. I learned earlier in the post history that 3 !'s together are code that invokes those smileys you accidentally posted. I laughed because I to accidentally made smileys in a post when I didn't intend to


I know. I was typing and hit send and when I read it I was like wtf !! Anyway the one thing I forgot to mention was the damper , something's not kosher with it !! Maybe the air ports inside the firebox is blocked? Not drilled out ? I'm fishing for you. I feel the pain because I went thru it .  These guys are great with helping , so just listen and try , you will get to the bottom of it ! 
TINMAN


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## Ash (Oct 20, 2015)

My bet is you have wet wood and that is the only problem. Just in case you didn't get the message...correct your install problems before you start burning any dry wood.


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## jb6l6gc (Oct 20, 2015)

I've read entire post lots of great info here for any newbie.  I have a feeling you will look back on this thread Op an laugh.  Everyone here is helpful and looking out for your best interests and don't ever believe otherwise. We are one big dysfunctional family, in a good way.   Stick around once u have some time under your belt you may become a bit opinionated to other newbs with regards to safety.  With help from the hearth family you will get there and never look back!
Cheers!


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## BrotherBart (Oct 20, 2015)

bholler said:


> I do want to respond to that though it is not because i am here that i feel that i am a bit of an authority...



Hell, I'm here because I do know it all.  Everybody knows that.


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## Smoked (Oct 20, 2015)

Good news is it looks like it is going to warm up a bit for a week or so.  That will give you some time to work on things.  Bad news, draft will be worse again.  Look for that primary inlet (doghouse) into the firebox.  I think most are bottom front center pointing to the back.  If you block that with a split, you are going to have problems feeding the base of the fire.  When I start fires, I take a very small split and place it from the lower door frame diagonally across to the back corner of the stove to keep things away form the doghouse until things get going good.  Think you mentioned Lincoln log?  that works as long as the lower level is north south and not blocking the doghouse.

There have been snarky comments from a few, but not from the pros and they are not trolling you at all.  They are only looking out for your best interests and have given some very good advice! Take a deep breath and enjoy.  Once you get things worked out and get some good habits in place, these things are pretty easy to use!


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## Wildo (Oct 20, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> Hell, I'm here because I do know it all.  Everybody knows that.



Answered my first questions... correctly I might add...


Wood and air keep coming back as they almost always do.   

Clean your chimney, that will give you a good look into how your stove is burning.

Get some scrap lumber from a friend(stored not in a heap in their backyard)/compressed wood blocks
Or both and start again.

Closely inspect the air systems for function,fashion, and fit then start again.

Adjust stove to meet clearances then start again.

Ask us exspurts for help again.  

Be warm,happy, and informed.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 20, 2015)

Wildo said:


> Answered my first questions... correctly I might add...



Ah, the old cat Sierra. Some days I wish I had one of them. Never did. But wish I had one to play with now.

Now back to our regular program. We average five to six of these threads at the start of every season. And they always end one of two ways. "Thanks folks for the help." or "Screw all of you I am out of here."

The old header for the hearth room used to say "It may not be the answer you want to hear but..."


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## BrotherBart (Oct 20, 2015)

Closing this one. All that I see addresses any problem that could possibly exist with a wood stove.


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