# Wood furnace vs. pellet furnace



## Erichomeowner (Apr 9, 2020)

hello my name is Eric and my wife and I built a house 2 years ago. I grew up heating with wood and when I finally got to build my house that’s what I wanted to do. We installed a hotblast wood furnace and when colder weather started I fired it up heated the house fine which is about 2000sq but I couldn’t get flue temperatures out of creosote range and it would burn through lots of wood couldn’t get more than 3-4 hours on a full load. The thing also smoked a lot.  after 7 days I checked stove pipe and chimney and it was almost full of creosote. So I cleaned it all out and started over and after 10 more days I woke up to smoke puffing out of the damper and I looked outside and there was creosote all over the snow around my house. Also want to add I was burning seasoned hardwood.  

It scared me to say the least. So I said no more and took it out. This last winter I only used propane furnace and yes it kept us warm but it’s not wood heat. So after doing some research I was looking at some pellet furnaces. I’m on here asking for some help deciding on what to do now?  go back to burning wood with a different furnace or switch to pellet. Thanks everyone


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## moresnow (Apr 9, 2020)

Unseasoned wood burnt in a stove with very questionable reviews. Both can be fixed. Others will be chiming in that have more experience with your type of stove. Welcome to hearth.


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 9, 2020)

moresnow said:


> Unseasoned wood burnt in a stove with very questionable reviews. Both can be fixed. Others will be chiming in that have more experience with your type of stove. Welcome to hearth.



thanks for the welcome. As for the stove I know it was a cheaper furnace I bought it for the price I learned my lesson. And as for wood the wood I was burning was well seasoned oak, ash, and birch cut and spilt over 2 years before burning.


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## Medic21 (Apr 9, 2020)

When you say seasoned what moisture content?

EPA certified stove? I ask because the flue temps will be lower than what your used to with a non epa stove. Sounds more like wet wood and a poor draft condition.

Pellets cost about 15% more around here than propane.

Welcome and good luck.


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 9, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> When you say seasoned what moisture content?
> 
> EPA certified stove? I ask because the flue temps will be lower than what your used to with a non epa stove. Sounds more like wet wood and a poor draft condition.
> 
> ...



hello and thanks it was not a epa stove and moisture content was between 15-20% and I can get Aton of pellets for around $200


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## woodey (Apr 9, 2020)

If you decide on going with a wood furnace there are only two I would  consider. The Kuuma Vapor-Fire is possibly (probably) the best one out there. Virtually a smokeless burn therefor no creosote. You should easily be able to more than double your current burn times. Another to consider is the Caddy series by PSG. Before any purchase talk to manufacturer and tell them your set up-chimney, return air ect......  The Kuuma can also be installed as a add-on and run in conjunction with your Propane.


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## Medic21 (Apr 9, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> hello and thanks it was not a epa stove and moisture content was between 15-20% and I can get Aton of pellets for around $200


Pound for pound propane has almost 4x the BTUs of pellets.  @$1.21 a gallon it is considerably cheaper especially when you figure a 95%+ efficiency with the furnace.  

I would look at the draft of the furnace or your house is too sealed up to give it enough air.   The hotblast is a super simple stove to run.


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 9, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> Pound for pound propane has almost 4x the BTUs of pellets.  @$1.21 a gallon it is considerably cheaper especially when you figure a 95%+ efficiency with the furnace.
> 
> I would look at the draft of the furnace or your house is too sealed up to give it enough air.   The hotblast is a super simple stove to run.



thanks again yes my house is built super tight I never thought about that being a problem.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 9, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> hello my name is Eric and my wife and I built a house 2 years ago. I grew up heating with wood and when I finally got to build my house that’s what I wanted to do. We installed a hotblast wood furnace and when colder weather started I fired it up heated the house fine which is about 2000sq but I couldn’t get flue temperatures out of creosote range and it would burn through lots of wood couldn’t get more than 3-4 hours on a full load. The thing also smoked a lot.  after 7 days I checked stove pipe and chimney and it was almost full of creosote. So I cleaned it all out and started over and after 10 more days I woke up to smoke puffing out of the damper and I looked outside and there was creosote all over the snow around my house. Also want to add I was burning seasoned hardwood.
> 
> It scared me to say the least. So I said no more and took it out. This last winter I only used propane furnace and yes it kept us warm but it’s not wood heat. So after doing some research I was looking at some pellet furnaces. I’m on here asking for some help deciding on what to do now?  go back to burning wood with a different furnace or switch to pellet. Thanks everyone


Which model Hotblast was it? Doesn't really matter I guess...they range from bad to worse on how well they work...unless you live in a barn and just let the big dog eat...which will make a ton of heat if you can keep up with its appetite. And letting it run hard, burning truly dry (not "seasoned"...to experienced burners, seasoned is code for: not dry enough to burn) is about the only way that it won't crap your chimney right up...just as you experienced.
If you want to burn wood, buy a better furnace...most bang for the buck is probably gonna be something from Drolet...Tundra II/Heatmax II (same furnace) https://myfireplaceproducts.com/us_en/drolet-heatmax-ii-wood-furnace-df01001
which is only gonna be available for another month or so (May 15) due to the EPA 2020 rules kicking in...after that, your only choice for a firewood burning hot air furnace will be the Kuuma VF100...which just happens to be the best you can get...and the only one that is 2020 certified as of right now. https://www.lamppakuuma.com/vapor-fire-100/
But rumor has it that Drolet has some 2020 models coming this fall...who knows what that's gonna look like as far as how they work, price, etc, etc, etc.
If you want to burn pellets, that certainly comes at a price too...buying the pellets, loading the hopper, cleaning the burn chamber/etc...sounds to me like pellet eaters tend to need a lot of maintenance...just my take on reading about them.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 9, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> I would look at the draft of the furnace or your house is too sealed up to give it enough air. The hotblast is a super simple stove to run.


Good point...


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## Medic21 (Apr 9, 2020)

At least, for once, it’s not “I have a Fire Chief/Shelter” problem.  LOL


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## andym (Apr 10, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> after that, your only choice for a firewood burning hot air furnace will be the Kuuma VF100...which just happens to be the best you can get...and the only one that is 2020 certified as of right now.


You mentioned something I've been wondering about. Kuuma is still advertised as "the only 2020 EPA wood furnace". This is no longer the case. Misleading at best, outright false advertising at worst. My local Menards has a Shelter 2020 approved furnace in stock. Granted there is no comparison between the two and I am NOT endorsing Fire Chief/Shelter. Perhaps someone should tell Lamppa to do a Google search on the term '2020 EPA wood furnace'?

To the OP: if you are truly wanting wood heat, don't settle for pellets or propane. Get a Drolet while you can! Or if you can afford it get the Kuuma. Your chimney problems can be solved! The members here can point you to a solution it you are willing to take advice. (Sounds to me like your house is too tight and you've probably got a masonry chimney?) A chimney filled with creosote is not a typical day of burning wood. 

Nothing wrong with pellets. If you aren't into the commitment/lifestyle of wood burning, it may be perfect for you. 

By the way: I've got a brand new Drolet Heatmax2 awaiting the trip to the basement....


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## brenndatomu (Apr 10, 2020)

andym said:


> Kuuma is still advertised as "the only 2020 EPA wood furnace". This is no longer the case. Misleading at best, outright false advertising at worst. My local Menards has a Shelter 2020 approved furnace in stock.


Well...technically you are right...BUT, those things are so bad I refuse to acknowledge their existence...ask, @Medic21 what he did with his.   
AND, while yes they "passed", rumor has it...well, more than a rumor, it was done so with a variance to the test...which later on it was determined that the variance changed the essence of the test and so would have to be re-tested...the test labs are pretty backed up lately and I haven't heard if they have retested yet or not...I know Lamppa has been trying to get their smaller VF200 in for testing for some time...I thought I heard that happened already, but they are not advertising it yet so...


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 10, 2020)

andym said:


> You mentioned something I've been wondering about. Kuuma is still advertised as "the only 2020 EPA wood furnace". This is no longer the case. Misleading at best, outright false advertising at worst. My local Menards has a Shelter 2020 approved furnace in stock. Granted there is no comparison between the two and I am NOT endorsing Fire Chief/Shelter. Perhaps someone should tell Lamppa to do a Google search on the term '2020 EPA wood furnace'?
> 
> To the OP: if you are truly wanting wood heat, don't settle for pellets or propane. Get a Drolet while you can! Or if you can afford it get the Kuuma. Your chimney problems can be solved! The members here can point you to a solution it you are willing to take advice. (Sounds to me like your house is too tight and you've probably got a masonry chimney?) A chimney filled with creosote is not a typical day of burning wood.
> 
> ...



yes my house is built tight. And my chimney is stainless 6”


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## Medic21 (Apr 10, 2020)

andym said:


> You mentioned something I've been wondering about. Kuuma is still advertised as "the only 2020 EPA wood furnace". This is no longer the case. Misleading at best, outright false advertising at worst. My local Menards has a Shelter 2020 approved furnace in stock. Granted there is no comparison between the two and I am NOT endorsing Fire Chief/Shelter. Perhaps someone should tell Lamppa to do a Google search on the term '2020 EPA wood furnace'?
> 
> To the OP: if you are truly wanting wood heat, don't settle for pellets or propane. Get a Drolet while you can! Or if you can afford it get the Kuuma. Your chimney problems can be solved! The members here can point you to a solution it you are willing to take advice. (Sounds to me like your house is too tight and you've probably got a masonry chimney?) A chimney filled with creosote is not a typical day of burning wood.
> 
> ...


I don’t care how much engineering or testing that HY-C does with any product they sell.  It’s hard enough to polish a turd and all they are doing at this point is smearing around a pile of crap trying to say it smells better...


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## woodey (Apr 10, 2020)

Lamppa  currently has a PRE- EPA Certified Phase 2 sale- $300.00 off  VF. 100.


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 10, 2020)

woodey said:


> Lamppa  currently has a PRE- EPA Certified Phase 2 sale- $300.00 off  VF. 100.



Is lamppa open right now? I tried calling them to get info about their furnace and there was no answer


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## blades (Apr 10, 2020)

crimminy , an old home built barrel stove works better than those hot blast chi-com units- and i had one - automatic "overfire" damper is a joke. Blower motor bearings went south 1/2 way through first season.  All that damper ever did was stick wide open despite many attempts to correct.  Before the big internet hack there were pages and pages of info on them.  Might still be able to get an Englander wood furnace ( MADE IN USA) nothing fancy but is a secondary burn unit that meets current EPA rules - don't know about 2020 ones though.   The Canadian Drolet units are decent also.  Got to hurry though as the window is closing on sales of pre 2020 spec units.


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 10, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> Is lamppa open right now? I tried calling them to get info about their furnace and there was no answer



nope, they are closed at the request of the MN governor.


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## woodey (Apr 10, 2020)

They have a small stockpile of furnaces available and ready to go as soon as they are allowed to re-open.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 10, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> Is lamppa open right now? I tried calling them to get info about their furnace and there was no answer


Maybe closed for Good Friday? Try emailing, or contact via their Facebook page...someone usually gets back to you pretty quickly...
Edit: oops, I see this has been answered...I thought they were still open...I would be a little surprised if they don't answer email or FB though...


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 10, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Maybe closed for Good Friday? Try emailing, or contact via their Facebook page...someone usually gets back to you pretty quickly...
> Edit: oops, I see this has been answered...I thought they were still open...



What you will get as an auto-reply when you shoot them an email:



> ***We are TEMPORARY closed at the request of the Minnesota Governor due to the Coronavirus. In the event of an emergency, we will attempt to monitor our e-mail and respond as needed. We were able to build up a small stock and should be able to get orders out the door fairly soon upon reopening. Thanks, and stay safe!*


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## brenndatomu (Apr 10, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> Is lamppa open right now? I tried calling them to get info about their furnace and there was no answer


What do you want to know? You have at least 3 VF 100 owners replied on this thread so far...


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 10, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> What do you want to know? You have at least 3 VF 100 owners replied on this thread so far...



Well from what I read about them do they really work as well as they say? No creosote and long burn times? Also is the VF100 to large for my 2000sq ?  And want to know if their furnace will work with my application. I have a furnace room off my garage and it ducts into the house from there my


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 10, 2020)

andym said:


> You mentioned something I've been wondering about. Kuuma is still advertised as "the only 2020 EPA wood furnace". This is no longer the case. Misleading at best, outright false advertising at worst. My local Menards has a Shelter 2020 approved furnace in stock. Granted there is no comparison between the two and I am NOT endorsing Fire Chief/Shelter. Perhaps someone should tell Lamppa to do a Google search on the term '2020 EPA wood furnace'?
> 
> To the OP: if you are truly wanting wood heat, don't settle for pellets or propane. Get a Drolet while you can! Or if you can afford it get the Kuuma. Your chimney problems can be solved! The members here can point you to a solution it you are willing to take advice. (Sounds to me like your house is too tight and you've probably got a masonry chimney?) A chimney filled with creosote is not a typical day of burning wood.
> 
> ...




tell ya what.  I'll give ya $500 if you return your HM2 and purchase a new Hy-C product.  You get to keep that $500 if you keep the Hy-C product installed and in use for 5 years straight.   I miss all the Hy-C drama (at others expense) and willing to put up $500 to get some of that "excitement" back in the forum.   

Those in the know know their certification was "in paper only" and how it will not truly pass the test how the test was required to be administered as.  They passed simply because they were given a variance and that variance made the hardest part and the most important part of the test non-existant.


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 10, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> Well from what I read about them do they really work as well as they say? No creosote and long burn times? Also is the VF100 to large for my 2000sq ?  And want to know if their furnace will work with my application. I have a furnace room off my garage and it ducts into the house from there my



Short answer, yes, yes and yes.  They are not a gimmick.

Having said that, IMO, installing one in a garage is not ideal and may (probably) be frowned upon by your insurance company.  You will not see the results you want by keeping the furnace in an un-heated space which is not below that of the heated space.....like in a basement.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 10, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> Well from what I read about them do they really work as well as they say? No creosote and long burn times? Also is the VF100 to large for my 2000sq ?  And want to know if their furnace will work with my application. I have a furnace room off my garage and it ducts into the house from there my


Is that 2000 ft ground floor only...no basement? 
The 100 certainly would not be too small...the smaller VF 200 may be a better fit once they offer those again.
Need more info about your garage install...not ideal for sure.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 10, 2020)

And yes, no creosote and long burn times are 100% real...


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## Highbeam (Apr 10, 2020)

He said a furnace room off the garage. Might  be a great place for a furnace, might be nothing more than a closet in the garage.


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## woodey (Apr 10, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> do they really work as well as they say? No creosote and long burn times?


I can testify that mine works  as advertised, probably better than I had hoped for,burn times are awesome and thru 4 years of using it no creosote issues just a little brownish-black ash in the pipe and chimney at end of season. As far as your setup I will leave that to members with more knowledge on the subject.


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 10, 2020)

Here's my chimney after the first year of burning.  This was after the burning the whole winter with wood that was 20-25%  in MC.  It's all flyash.








here's what the inside of the heat exchanger looks like after about a winters worth of burning.





Here's the inside of the firebox looking up at the round collar you see in the photo above:





Here's a thread I made with some data.  Keep in mind I have a speed controlled blower based on plenum temps, so my curve will be flatter than those who have the standard blower.  





						Kuuma Vapor Fire 100:  Supply and Stack Temps vs Time over 20 hours
					

I decided to buy a -GATEWAY- for my Thermoworks Smoke which I use to monitor my supply and stack temps.   This sends temps to the cloud every minute or so and allows one to export the data to a CSV file to play with in a spreadsheet.  Supply temps are taken in the plenum, but the HVAC probe I...




					www.hearth.com
				




Here's a post I made about getting 21.5 hours of blower runtime off a single FULL load of black locust.




__





						Kuuma Vapor Fire 100:  Supply and Stack Temps vs Time over 20 hours
					

I decided to buy a -GATEWAY- for my Thermoworks Smoke which I use to monitor my supply and stack temps.   This sends temps to the cloud every minute or so and allows one to export the data to a CSV file to play with in a spreadsheet.  Supply temps are taken in the plenum, but the HVAC probe I...




					www.hearth.com


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 10, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Is that 2000 ft ground floor only...no basement?
> The 100 certainly would not be too small...the smaller VF 200 may be a better fit once they offer those again.
> Need more info about your garage install...not ideal for sure.



2000sq two story no basement garage is fully insulated and drywalled just like rest of house and the furnace has its own roomin garage on house side. And from there chimney goes straight up


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 10, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Here's my chimney after the first year of burning.  This was after the burning the whole winter with wood that was 20-25%  in MC.  It's all flyash.
> 
> View attachment 259199
> 
> ...



wow not what mine looked like at all after 7 days even


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 10, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> 2000sq two story no basement garage is fully insulated and drywalled just like rest of house and the furnace has its own roomin garage on house side. And from there chimney goes straight up




Aside from the insurance possibly being an issue, that -may- be fine......not ideal, but it may work out as long as you connect the return air ducts.  I'd probably leave that furnace room door open, that will heat the garage with just the radiant heat off the wood furnace.

I'd also go with the VF100 in that situation.  That's just me though.


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 10, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Aside from the insurance possibly being an issue, that -may- be fine......not ideal, but it may work out as long as you connect the return air ducts.  I'd probably leave that furnace room door open, that will heat the garage with just the radiant heat off the wood furnace.
> 
> I'd also go with the VF100 in that situation.  That's just me though.



Insurance company has no problemwith this I looked into it when building house. Also when I did have that hotblast installed the return air was hooked up also I did leave the door open and yes it did heat the garage nicely. I also keep the door from house to garage open


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## Gearhead660 (Apr 10, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> Well from what I read about them do they really work as well as they say? No creosote and long burn times? Also is the VF100 to large for my 2000sq ?  And want to know if their furnace will work with my application. I have a furnace room off my garage and it ducts into the house from there my


Is the rectangle duct up against the wall the return, and the periscope round duct the supply?


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 10, 2020)

Gearhead660 said:


> Is the rectangle duct up against the wall the return, and the periscope round duct the supply?



Yes it is


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 10, 2020)

Keep in mind though the Kuuma (or any EPA wood furnace) will not have the raw BTU output of the Hotblast.  I don't forsee the VF100 (or even the VF200) not heating that new, well insulated of a house, but it's something to keep in mind.  The EPA furnaces provide lower levels of more consistent heat over longer timeframes.  IOW, they don't blow their load over the first few hours...lol


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## Gearhead660 (Apr 10, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> Yes it is


Any way to get the supply to go up and then horizontal?  Potential issue with it going down.  if it has to go down, would want to add a heat dump to prevent an over heat situation.


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 10, 2020)

Gearhead660 said:


> Any way to get the supply to go up and then horizontal?  Potential issue with it going down.  if it has to go down, would want to add a heat dump to prevent an over heat situation.



Not sure I understand your question. Here is another picture of where it connects into propane furnace not really any other place to duct it into


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## Gearhead660 (Apr 10, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Keep in mind though the Kuuma (or any EPA wood furnace) will not have the raw BTU output of the Hotblast.  I don't forsee the VF100 (or even the VF200) not heating that new, well insulated of a house, but it's something to keep in mind.  The EPA furnaces provide lower levels of more consistent heat over longer timeframes.  IOW, they don't blow their load over the first few hours...lol


With your tight house and a correct set up, should have no issues heating no matter which burner you choose.  Many good choices of efficient furnaces with users on here to help with their hands on knowledge.  Do some investigating on the different choices, and make an informed decision.


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## Gearhead660 (Apr 10, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> Not sure I understand your question. Here is another picture of where it connects into propane furnace not really any other place to duct it into


Odd...plenum is under your A coil and furnace?  Seems upside down to me.  Is that the supply going up next to furnace.  Cant tie in there and  add a damper?


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## brenndatomu (Apr 10, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> Not sure I understand your question. Here is another picture of where it connects into propane furnace not really any other place to duct it into


Is the LP furnace a downflow?
What ever you put in you'll need more/bigger pipe to hook into the ducts...Kuuma specs 180 sq inches minimum for supply ducts...that would be (2) 12" round ducts...the Drolet furnaces will be about the same.
I agree that an emergency heat dump door would be needed if that is the only way to hook in...going down like that...


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 10, 2020)

Gearhead660 said:


> Odd...plenum is under your A coil and furnace?  Seems upside down to me.  Is that the supply going up next to furnace.  Cant tie in there and  add a damper?



the plenum for the propane furnace is above the propane furnace see picture. And  then ducts into crawl space in  house. Maybe I’m missing something I’m not a hvac guy this is new to me


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 10, 2020)

Gearhead660 said:


> With your tight house and a correct set up, should have no issues heating no matter which burner you choose.  Many good choices of efficient furnaces with users on here to help with their hands on knowledge.  Do some investigating on the different choices, and make an informed decision.




Agree.  I just felt it needed to be said after a couple of recent threads on atypical installs which did not work out as the owner expected.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 10, 2020)

Gearhead660 said:


> Odd...plenum is under your A coil and furnace


It must be a downflow furnace...


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 10, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> It must be a downflow furnace...



am I going to have a problem with running my heat duct downward from the furnace?


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 10, 2020)

Can't you install a Kuuma in series?  Use the blower from the LP furnace.

Reason I say this is one of the very first people I called and talked to when doing my research on the VF100 6 years ago was a guy who installed his in series using a downflow furnace with a DC motor.  He loved it and recommended I install mine the same way.  The supply duct out of the LP becomes the return air of the Kuuma.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 10, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> installed his in series using a downflow furnace with a DC motor.


Ha...and here I thought I had the worlds first speed controlled wood furnace!


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## Highbeam (Apr 10, 2020)

Super long burn time I keep hearing for the kuma which is correct compared to other furnaces but not to woodstoves. Maybe some real world examples? I hear of normal reload times of up to 12 hours. You need to burn fuel to make heat right? 

30 hours from my much smaller woodstove or over 40 hours from the now unmanufactured blaze king apex wood furnace are what I would call long burn times but even those are reduced when you have some of those horrible cold snaps and need more heat from the appliance.

The drawback of the kuma is very high price and no window. The folks that own them almost always seem to really like how they run.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 10, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> The drawback of the kuma is very high price


You keep bringing up the Kuuma's price...yes, it is more than the Drolet's, but compared to some of the large CAT stoves you are comparing too...I think it is a pretty good value...a lot more steel (stainless internally)/more firebrick/much larger blower, computer...top notch personal customer service...$5300 (current sale price...I think) for a VF100 is a better deal than $4000 for a large wood stove IMO.
And so say that you can do a 30 hour burn on a CAT stove...that in a furnace application probably would not be enough BTU output to overcome duct losses...and even if it would be, "most" people probably average 4 cords a year to heat their _whole house_ with the Kuuma...so _if_ you could save, best case scenario, 25% firewood...I say big deal, most people can make a cord of wood in a few hours!


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 10, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> And so say you can do a 30 hour burn on a CAT stove...



....and cat stoves are just using the cat as a band-aide to cover up for incomplete combustion.  Without the cat cleaning up the leftovers, those things would smoke like crazy.


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## JohnDolz (Apr 10, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> Pound for pound propane has almost 4x the BTUs of pellets.  @$1.21 a gallon it is considerably cheaper especially when you figure a 95%+ efficiency with the furnace.
> 
> I would look at the draft of the furnace or your house is too sealed up to give it enough air.   The hotblast is a super simple stove to run.


What I learned (unfortunately after my plumber installed a high efficiency Condensing boiler) is that the boiler cannot condense unless return temp is 130 degrees or lower - I would bet that at least 95% of all high efficiency condensing boilers installed in the US rarely if ever run at that high efficiency rating. When I talked to the manufacturer of mine (I primarily use a wood boiler with storage but was trying to dial in the backup as we were going to be away for a bit) to solve a short cycling concern they had me tweak the settings on my Outdoor reset - when I complained that with their curve the boiler would never condense, the answer was "when it is over 60 degrees out it will condense like crazy".......................


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## Medic21 (Apr 10, 2020)

JohnDolz said:


> What I learned (unfortunately after my plumber installed a high efficiency Condensing boiler) is that the boiler cannot condense unless return temp is 130 degrees or lower - I would bet that at least 95% of all high efficiency condensing boilers installed in the US rarely if ever run at that high efficiency rating. When I talked to the manufacturer of mine (I primarily use a wood boiler with storage but was trying to dial in the backup as we were going to be away for a bit) to solve a short cycling concern they had me tweak the settings on my Outdoor reset - when I complained that with their curve the boiler would never condense, the answer was "when it is over 60 degrees out it will condense like crazy".......................


If you pay to have one installed I’d expect the installer to set it up right.  

when I install the baseboard heat in the house in a couple of years I plan on installing a modulating boiler as back up to the Crown Royal.


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## JohnDolz (Apr 10, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> If you pay to have one installed I’d expect the installer to set it up right.
> 
> when I install the baseboard heat in the house in a couple of years I plan on installing a modulating boiler as back up to the Crown Royal.


I would recommend doing some research. There is a difference between a modulating boiler and a Modulating/Condensing boiler. Not sure of the efficiency rating on just modulating, high efficiency is usually tied to Condensing. Based on what I know (and that ain't much), you will have 2 challenges with a Mod/Con: 1. if you use outdoor reset to get water temperatures that are low enough to get the boiler to condense you are going to have a short cycling issue. 2. Most likely you will almost never have return temps that are low enough to have the boiler condense (think paying for a car designed to drive 200 mph but never being able to get above 30 mph). Based on what I know I would never pay the premium for a Mod/Con boiler given my given emitter setup. Disclaimer: since my propane hardly ever fires I did not put much energy into trying to resolve the issue ( i.e. I could actually heat my 1000 gallons of thermal storage avoiding the short cycling, etc). 

"If you pay to have one installed I’d expect the installer to set it up right."  One could "assume" that - not sure if you are old enough to recall the Odd Couple "Assume" episode, if not Google it. I challenged the manufacturer saying that I believed at least 80% of all of their boilers were installed incorrectly, he agreed. I asked him to contact my plumber and inform him of what was happening, he said "no". Translation: Your plumber sells my stuff which is really all I care about. If I call him and tell him that he does not know what he is doing he is going to stop selling my stuff and sell someone else's stuff instead.........

Edit: haven't thought about this in a few years, I should add that my boiler is just too big to modulate down low enough to avoid the short cycling. I am not sure if a smaller unit would be able to modulate down far enough but then again for it be big enough to meet my needs when it was really cold? I guess I am now educated enough to know what questions I should have asked.


----------



## Medic21 (Apr 10, 2020)

JohnDolz said:


> I would recommend doing some research. There is a difference between a modulating boiler and a Modulating/Condensing boiler. Not sure of the efficiency rating on just modulating, high efficiency is usually tied to Condensing. Based on what I know (and that ain't much), you will have 2 challenges with a Mod/Con: 1. if you use outdoor reset to get water temperatures that are low enough to get the boiler to condense you are going to have a short cycling issue. 2. Most likely you will almost never have return temps that are low enough to have the boiler condense (think paying for a car designed to drive 200 mph but never being able to get above 30 mph). Based on what I know I would never pay the premium for a Mod/Con boiler given my given emitter setup. Disclaimer: since my propane hardly ever fires I did not put much energy into trying to resolve the issue ( i.e. I could actually heat my 1000 gallons of thermal storage avoiding the short cycling, etc).
> 
> "If you pay to have one installed I’d expect the installer to set it up right."  One could "assume" that - not sure if you are old enough to recall the Odd Couple "Assume" episode, if not Google it. I challenged the manufacturer saying that I believed at least 80% of all of their boilers were installed incorrectly, he agreed. I asked him to contact my plumber and inform him of what was happening, he said "no". Translation: Your plumber sells my stuff which is really all I care about. If I call him and tell him that he does not know what he is doing he is going to stop selling my stuff and sell someone else's stuff instead.........


Simple tie in with a plate exchanger and a mixing valve to lower the outdoor boiler temps to the set point of the indoor boiler.  The system runs at 120 degrees.


----------



## JohnDolz (Apr 10, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> Simple tie in with a plate exchanger and a mixing valve to lower the outdoor boiler temps to the set point of the indoor boiler.  The system runs at 120 degrees.


Like I said, I don't know much and haven't given it any thought. I waste all my extra $'s chasing wood heating nirvana.


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 10, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> You keep bringing up the Kuuma's price...yes, it is more than the Drolet's, but compared to some of the large CAT stoves you are comparing too...I think it is a pretty good value...a lot more steel (stainless internally)/more firebrick/much larger blower, computer...top notch personal customer service...$5300 (current sale price...I think) for a VF100 is a better deal than $4000 for a large wood stove IMO.
> And so say that you can do a 30 hour burn on a CAT stove...that in a furnace application probably would not be enough BTU output to overcome duct losses...and even if it would be, "most" people probably average 4 cords a year to heat their _whole house_ with the Kuuma...so _if_ you could save, best case scenario, 25% firewood...I say big deal, most people can make a cord of wood in a few hours!



Of course I “keep” bringing up the kuma’s price with each new poster asking about furnaces. It’s a very important aspect and when the rest of the competition is half as much (approximately) money this becomes a major factor. You might get tired of hearing it but that makes this fact no less valuable to newcomers. 

There are plenty of positive reviews of the kuma that you don’t need to try and hide this one drawback. Be honest. It’s extremely expensive but for that you get x,y, and z. 

And no window! Though the OP is putting this in a small furnace room it is still nice to see the fire during ignition.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 10, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> There are plenty of positive reviews of the kuma that you don’t need to try and hide this one drawback.


Not trying to hide anything...price is posted right there on their website...my point was you were playing up CAT stoves, and was just saying that I think the Kuuma is more bang for the buck


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## maple1 (Apr 11, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> am I going to have a problem with running my heat duct downward from the furnace?



I don't have a wood furnace (have a boiler), but if I was to put one in I think I would 100% want the wood furnace supply ducting going up off the furnace - would be a primary system design constraint. Not even sure going down is manufacture recommended?

From a quick thread read, thinking most of your issue is due to the make/model of furnace. I would only go with Tundra, Caddy or Kuuma. Not sure from the read your complete system design & how the primary ducting setup is configured & the two furnaces tied together - could possibly be some issues there as well, or some may arise if you try to plumb another furnace in.

As far as fuels, I would pick my preferred fuel supply first, then furnace & design. Around here, pellets are one of the most expensive fuels. I would still be ahead of them if I had to buy all my wood already fully processed.


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## Medic21 (Apr 11, 2020)

I missed that.  There is no way that you should take a stove like the hotblast and run the ductwork down.  If you have a power outage it will overheat.  The directions will tell you this and your insurance will not like it.


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## andym (Apr 11, 2020)

Setting up a wood furnace to send heat downward will work, you will just need to install an automatic emergency heat dump. I would also install some kind of battery backup system as well. The heat dump will provide overheat protection in the event of power failure (or blower), but battery backup will allow you to operate as normal for a couple hours.

I am also a bit unclear as to how your current system is operating. I can't tell you the exact tie in method.

Is Digger79 still on this forum? Didn't he have a tundra1   set up in a garage supplting heat through the crawlspace?


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## brenndatomu (Apr 11, 2020)

maple1 said:


> Not even sure going down is manufacture recommended?


It's definitely not...but as has been mentioned, emergency heat dump gets around that...BUT, the last manufacturer of those that I am aware of is no longer supplying them...you could make one as someone here did...just need a steel box with a large hinged door (1'x1') held shut by a spring attached to a 200* fusible link...box is mounted on the supply plenum with the door tilted down just enough so that it will fall open if the link melts.
Someone here made their own, don't recall who it was...modified a steel electrical controls box, bought the links from Grainger IIRC.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 11, 2020)

andym said:


> Digger79 still on this forum? Didn't he have a tundra1 set up in a garage supplting heat through the crawlspace?


Yeah it was him ...haven't heard from him in a long time...I think he moved...maybe not using wood heat anymore...I dunno...


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 11, 2020)

andym said:


> Setting up a wood furnace to send heat downward will work, you will just need to install an automatic emergency heat dump. I would also install some kind of battery backup system as well. The heat dump will provide overheat protection in the event of power failure (or blower), but battery backup will allow you to operate as normal for a couple hours.
> 
> I am also a bit unclear as to how your current system is operating. I can't tell you the exact tie in method.
> 
> Is Digger79 still on this forum? Didn't he have a tundra1   set up in a garage supplting heat through the crawlspace?



I have my furnace hooked up to a generator as well as my well pump and a few outlets so incase of power outage the gen will kick on. There is no other way I could direct the heat cause I need to down and into crawl space


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## brenndatomu (Apr 11, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> I have my furnace hooked up to a generator as well as my well pump


Auto start genny?


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 11, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Auto start genny?


 
yes


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## Medic21 (Apr 11, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> I have my furnace hooked up to a generator as well as my well pump and a few outlets so incase of power outage the gen will kick on. There is no other way I could direct the heat cause I need to down and into crawl space


Check with homeowners insurance.  Mine said they would drop me with it in the garage or down draft.


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 11, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> Check with homeowners insurance.  Mine said they would drop me with it in the garage or down draft.



insurance company is fine with it in garage. My concern is can I or am I able to to install a add on wood furnace and or pellet furnace with the way I need to connect duct


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## brenndatomu (Apr 11, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> yes


That's good...me personally, I would still do a Emerg. heat dump...I like a backup for the backup when it comes to fire inside my home...there are a thousand reasons that backup genny could fail...or the blower motor/controls could kaputz...EHD is pretty darn simple...I installed one even though my ducts will gravity flow, just for peace of mind...I could just see some numbnutz crashing into a pole and taking the power out right after I put a big load in and head off to work...and often times my family is still sleeping after I leave.
The risk of things over heating with a Kuuma are much less than with the old Yukon furnace I had, but if the power went out right after a large load of wood was put in and it was brought up to temp, things would still get pretty toasty with no blower taking the heat away (if it happened right as the furnace went into pilot burn...that can last quite a while sometimes)


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## brenndatomu (Apr 11, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> My concern is can I or am I able to to install a add on wood furnace


You would probably want to check with Lamppa first, but I'm betting that they would have no problem approving that install with a EHD in place...or need to check with whatever manufacturer you go with (your HO ins too)...Lamppa seems to be more willing to think outside the box on individual installs than other manufactures I've dealt with.


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 12, 2020)

Safety Heat Dump
					

Automatic safety heat dump used for safe wood burning in wood furnace.




					store.yukon-eagle.com


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 12, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Safety Heat Dump
> 
> 
> Automatic safety heat dump used for safe wood burning in wood furnace.
> ...



So do you install that on top or your plenum directly above the furnace?


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## brenndatomu (Apr 12, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Safety Heat Dump
> 
> 
> Automatic safety heat dump used for safe wood burning in wood furnace.
> ...


When you call them to order, they are out of stock, with no ETA...I think they are gonna end up shutting down.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 12, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> So do you install that on top or your plenum directly above the furnace?


I goes on the side of the plenum...


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 12, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> When you call them to order, they are out of stock, with no ETA...I think they are gonna end up shutting down.



You'd think they'd pull it off the website then.  It's not hard to do.  LOL

I should place an order for 100 of them, just to f with them....however, my luck they'd all ship out tomorrow.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 12, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> You'd think they'd pull it off the website then.  It's not hard to do.  LOL
> 
> I should place an order for 100 of them, just to f with them....however, my luck they'd all ship out tomorrow.


Yeah I think they (Yukon) are at minimum staffing...maybe just selling off inventory...hard to stay in business just selling furnaces to part of Canada...at one point they claimed to be designing a 2020 firebox, but it seems that things are just slowly drying up around there.
The topic of EHD came up here a couple months ago and I linked to the Yukon unit, someone, I don't recall who, said they were out and not making more, so I found some on another site, but turns out it was someone listing Yukons EHD's and they didn't actually have any inventory.
The only other EHD that I know of in recent times was made by Charmaster, (IIRC) and they have been out of business a couple years already now...


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## Highbeam (Apr 12, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> insurance company is fine with it in garage. My concern is can I or am I able to to install a add on wood furnace and or pellet furnace with the way I need to connect duct



Your old wood furnace was installed this way right? You had insurance right? Are you looking for a manufacturer that will allow the downflow or are you looking for a forum member that can show you theirs installed that way? 

Start looking at the online installation manuals for Kuuma, Drolet, and the caddy for allowable installs. If you can’t find what you need then call their tech line. 

The only pellet furnace that people seem to love is the Fahrenheit which is made up by you. Not terribly expensive.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 12, 2020)

Here is a link to the thread where we were talking about buying EHD, and the fact that there seems to be none to be had...so @Socratic Monologue  DIY'd one...I think I recall someone doing a DIY EHD unit in the big Tundra thread too.





						Just pulled the trigger...
					

After a few threads on this forum I pulled the trigger on a new Drolet HeatPro at what I think is a good price. To my door with the cold air intake box for a hair over $2600.   Now just to figure out the install and operation....  I am sure I will be back




					www.hearth.com


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 12, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Your old wood furnace was installed this way right? You had insurance right? Are you looking for a manufacturer that will allow the downflow or are you looking for a forum member that can show you theirs installed that way?
> 
> Start looking at the online installation manuals for Kuuma, Drolet, and the caddy for allowable installs. If you can’t find what you need then call their tech line.
> 
> The only pellet furnace that people seem to love is the Fahrenheit which is made up by you. Not terribly expensive.



Yes my insurance company was good with my old stove hooked up that way. And yes Id love to see someone else with a setup similar to how I want to set up. Before I spend the money on a new kumma or other brand I want to see if the setup will work. With the hotblast furnace I had was such a bad experience I’m iffy about what to do next


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## brenndatomu (Apr 12, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> With the hotblast furnace I had was such a bad experience I’m iffy about what to do next


Your chances of being a happy camper with a Hotblast were pretty slim right out of the gate...a quality furnace will help insure better results next time. As long as you stay away from big box store furnaces (except the Drolet's, and maybe the Englander 28-4000, if you don't mind a manual furnace) you will be fine as long as you deal with the current heat trap issue there...nobody is going to sign off on that as is...most specifically forbid it. Oh, and you will definitely need truly dry wood (20% MC or under when measured internally) to burn...not just "seasoned".
The bigger problem may be actually finding a EHD to buy, unless you can get away with making one...and that will completely depend on your insurance company...some are much easier to get along with than others when it comes to wood heat...sounds like your company/agent may not be too bad either.
I switched ins. companies last year and the new one just wanted to know what the manufacturers recommended CTC's (clearance to combustibles) were and then some pics of my install...that was the end of it. Like my agent said, the underwriters just want to know the CTC's and then be able to see that I'm not obviously violating any of them...that and everything just has a proper/professional look to it...if they question anything sometimes they will request an on site inspection...that never happened for me.
Keep in mind, as of right now, the Kuuma will be your only cordwood choice after May 15th, unless others do come through with the much rumored 2020 approved models (Mainly PSG/Drolet) well, and technically the Firechief/Shelter furnace too...but you'd be better off sticking with the Hotblast than getting one of those POS.


----------



## trx250r87 (Apr 12, 2020)

@Erichomeowner 
I'm just North of Green Bay on the other side of the Bay as you are. I started off with a Vogelzang Norseman which I believe is similar to a Hotblast. I struggled with it for 1 season then got rid of it and upgraded to a Drolet Tundra. The first year with the Tundra was a bit of trial and error but after that first season and some modifications, it is night and day better than the old smoke dragon! Something like a Kuuma with a glass door would be the best of everything!

Eric


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 12, 2020)

trx250r87 said:


> @Erichomeowner
> I'm just North of Green Bay on the other side of the Bay as you are. I started off with a Vogelzang Norseman which I believe is similar to a Hotblast. I struggled with it for 1 season then got rid of it and upgraded to a Drolet Tundra. The first year with the Tundra was a bit of trial and error but after that first season and some modifications, it is night and day better than the old smoke dragon! Something like a Kuuma with a glass door would be the best of everything!
> 
> Eric


Thanks for the info. And happy Easter. With this whole stupid safer at home deal and people not working I’m unable at the moment to get any info from manufacturers. I’d be really interested in either the kumma 100 or 200 but all depends on my setup as to having to run my heat duct off the furnace and down into crawl space.


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 12, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> With this whole stupid safer at home deal and people not working I’m unable at the moment to get any info from manufacturers.



hmmm, what Wisconsin based manufacturer are you trying to get a hold of?   

Being a resident of Door County you should be glad people are being told to stay home....especially seeing your area is the hot spot weekend destination of Illinois and Chicago area people.  If I were living  in that area, I would NOT want anybody from out of town coming up to visit, especially from larger cities.  I have friends and relatives up in the Crivitz area and they are in the same boat.  They don't even want to see people coming up to their cottages from down south.   

As far as your setup, you will most likely have to run it in series with your LP furnace, using your LP blower.  You will need to come up with a systems control that will allow this to work.    

In regards to pellets, you are better off $$-wise buying LP than you are pellets, at today's prices anyway.


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 13, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> hmmm, what Wisconsin based manufacturer are you trying to get a hold of?
> 
> Being a resident of Door County you should be glad people are being told to stay home....especially seeing your area is the hot spot weekend destination of Illinois and Chicago area people.  If I were living  in that area, I would NOT want anybody from out of town coming up to visit, especially from larger cities.  I have friends and relatives up in the Crivitz area and they are in the same boat.  They don't even want to see people coming up to their cottages from down south.
> 
> ...


I tried giving lamppa a call and they are under stay at home orders also. As to here in door county the stay at home has not stopped many from coming here from Chicago and bigger city’s. As much as I would like to not see a huge influx of people in the county right now it’s just not the case.


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Apr 13, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> I tried giving lamppa a call and they are under stay at home orders also.



Was just teasing ya, as the whole "safer at home" thing is actually a Wisconsin branded thing.  Lamppa is in MN, where they actually have a "shelter in place" order.  Pretty much the same thing and just symantecs, but I was in that kinda mood last night.    




Erichomeowner said:


> As to here in door county the stay at home has not stopped many from coming here from Chicago and bigger city’s. As much as I would like to not see a huge influx of people in the county right now it’s just not the case.



Doesn't surprise me, really, but it's sad.  Some people are ignorantly selfish and will do what they want to do regardless of whom they may or may not affect.


----------



## lampmfg (Apr 14, 2020)

I just went through this thread.   Eric, I see that you sent an email the other day as well.  Please call Dale's cell directly at 612-860-3684, and he will try to answer any questions.  Technically we are closed for business with the stay at home order in MN.  It's been very challenging trying to deal with this, especially with all the inquiries we are getting now for furnaces and sauna stoves.  It's almost like people have more time or something 

We've tried to stay on top of emails, but it's hard to give answers when we don't know when we technically can get back operational.  We will honor our sale price on the furnaces for anyone that inquires and wants to place an order before EPA Phase 2 goes into effect.  Anyone with operational or set-up questions has been getting taken care of, so that's what we want to make sure we focused on at this time.

As far as being the only approved EPA Phase 2 furnace.  Technically we know that that is not the case right now, but we hope that changes hopefully by the time that the new regulations go into effect.  Needless to say, we've had tons of correspondence with the EPA on the testing process, realistically they should've hired my dad as a consultant for everything we've taught them on the wood furnace testing process.  

Thanks,


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## brenndatomu (Apr 14, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> Please call Dale's cell directly at 612-860-XXXX (EDITED), and he will try to answer any questions.


Let's see that kind of service from anybody else!


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 14, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Let's see that kind of service from anybody else!



I agree, but Garrett may want to PM him the number instead of posting it on a public forum.  I can only imagine the bot calls Dale will be getting at 3am.        I would probably edit your reply and remove the number so if Garrett decides to remove the number from his post it won't still be shown in your quote of his post.


----------



## sloeffle (Apr 14, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> I can only imagine the bot calls Dale will be getting at 3am.


Poor Dale. Now he's going to win a free cruise everyday, become a millionaire overnight, and have all of his college loans paid for.


----------



## brenndatomu (Apr 14, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> I would probably edit your reply and remove the number so if Garrett decides to remove the number from his post it won't still be shown in your quote of his post.


Good point...done.


----------



## JohnDolz (Apr 14, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Let's see that kind of service from anybody else!


I actually had a manufacturer from Europe come visit me at my home. There are good companies out there and those are the ones we should support.


----------



## Erichomeowner (Apr 14, 2020)

Thanks to everyone on here with all the great ideas and info. I was able to have a great conversation with dale from lamppa and he answered a lot about the kumma furnace I’m sure everyone will see me around this site more often


----------



## brenndatomu (Apr 14, 2020)

What did he suggest for your heat trap situation there?


----------



## Erichomeowner (Apr 14, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> What did he suggest for your heat trap situation there?



said since I have a back up generator I’d be ok but recommends a heat dump. after talking to him about these furnaces I think I need to save my money and invest in one. Almost sounds to good to be true.


----------



## brenndatomu (Apr 14, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> said since I have a back up generator I’d be ok but recommends a heat dump. after talking to him about these furnaces I think I need to save my money and invest in one. Almost sounds to good to be true.


Wonder if they have a source for a EHD? (or can make one for you?)
Not too good to be true...the real deal...about the only thing they have in common with a Hotblast is that they both use wood for fuel...as @STIHLY DAN has said before, Kuuma makes wood burning so simple/reliable, its boring.


----------



## andym (Apr 15, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> its boring


Thats because they don't have a glass door!


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Apr 15, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> Almost sounds to good to be true.



It's the real deal.  As long as you don't try to heat the Taj Mahal, or that of a similar heat load, you will love it.


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Apr 15, 2020)

andym said:


> Thats because they don't have a glass door!



..and because it doesn't have a glass door you will actually get to live life instead of sitting down the basement staring at a heating appliance like you are Forest Gump.  

You have to remember, because it's load and go, there's no need to sit down there to wait for anything.  You simply throw the wood in, close the door and walk away.


----------



## brenndatomu (Apr 15, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> live life instead of sitting down the basement staring at a heating appliance like you are Forest Gump.


You say that like its a bad thing...
If you have never had a stove with a window then you wont miss it...but if you have, then you will...I do.
But yeah, most of the time you just load the firebox and walk away....with a proper heat load it could/would be that way for sure...but OP may be a bit like me in that my house doesn't require mega BTU's to maintain temp, plus we have had a couple pretty mild winters since my VF100 install...anyways, since I am often running at about the bare minimum I am often scrapeing around for the last few coals to get things fired off again, so sometimes I will sit there for a few minutes to make sure the fire takes off.
OP's house being 2000 ft of new build it may not have a high heat load either...but, he is also in what is typically a little colder area though too. I would still want to discuss with Lamppa the possibility that a VF200 would be a better fit than the larger VF100...I assume the VF200 will be re-released here shortly, @lampmfg ?


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 15, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> You say that like its a bad thing...
> If you have never had a stove with a window then you wont miss it...but if you have, then you will...I do.



I was mostly being a smart azz.   

We have a conventional fireplace.  I do miss the snap, crackle, pop and smell of an open fire.  Maybe we need to find a way to be able to leave the door open too so I can also get back to enjoying those aspects of burning wood too.


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Apr 15, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> OP's house being 2000 ft of new build it may not have a high heat load either...but, he is also in what is typically a little colder area though too. I would still want to discuss with Lamppa the possibility that a VF200 would be a better fit than the larger VF100...


Add to the fact of trying to force hot air down.....my other concern is it seems his supply ducts run in a crawl space under the house.....?  if so, how well heated is this space??  I see some issues if he's trying to run his supply ducts in un-heated (or even partially heated) space before the supply air gets dumped into the house.  Maybe this was covered already and I didn't see it....?  EPA furnaces don't have the raw BTU output needed to overcome those kind of duct losses.


----------



## andym (Apr 15, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> I was mostly being a smart azz.
> 
> We have a conventional fireplace.  I do miss the snap, crackle, pop and smell of an open fire.  Maybe we need to find a way to be able to leave the door open too so I can also get back to enjoying those aspects of burning wood too.


Maybe suggest to Lamppa that they come out with a high temp wifi camera to install on the inside of the door. The camera would live stream to your phone, tablet,etc complete with sound effects!


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## brenndatomu (Apr 15, 2020)

andym said:


> Maybe suggest to Lamppa that they come out with a high temp wifi camera to install on the inside of the door. The camera would live stream to your phone, tablet,etc complete with sound effects!


Could even have simulated video, based on firebox temp, stage of the burn, and damper setting, etc...


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Apr 15, 2020)

andym said:


> Maybe suggest to Lamppa that they come out with a high temp wifi camera to install on the inside of the door. The camera would live stream to your phone, tablet,etc complete with sound effects!





brenndatomu said:


> Could even have simulated video, based on firebox temp, stage of the burn, and damper setting, etc...



I'll just put a TV on my plenum downstairs and loop this video.  Problem solved.


----------



## Case1030 (Apr 15, 2020)

Heatmax 2 are at the lowest price I have seen. $1799 US. 









						DROLET - HEATMAX II WOOD FURNACE
					

Drolet is proud to present the HeatMax II, a completely re-engineered high efficiency wood furnace that meets the new EPA (CSA B415.1-10) clean-air standards. This enhanced furnace will provide considerable energy savings over a conventional wood furnace,




					myfireplaceproducts.com


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## maple1 (Apr 15, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Add to the fact of trying to force hot air down.....my other concern is it seems his supply ducts run in a crawl space under the house.....?  if so, how well heated is this space??  I see some issues if he's trying to run his supply ducts in un-heated (or even partially heated) space before the supply air gets dumped into the house.  Maybe this was covered already and I didn't see it....?  EPA furnaces don't have the raw BTU output needed to overcome those kind of duct losses.



Good questions. 

OP?


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## brenndatomu (Apr 15, 2020)

Case1030 said:


> Heatmax 2 are at the lowest price I have seen. $1799 US.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like MFP is down to (2) Heatpros...


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## Erichomeowner (Apr 15, 2020)

maple1 said:


> Good questions.
> 
> OP?


I am running into crawl space but the crawl is insulated. 2” foam board on all concrete walls it’s stays above 50* even when it’s below 0 outside I hope that’s enough


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 15, 2020)

Erichomeowner said:


> I am running into crawl space but the crawl is insulated. 2” foam board on all concrete walls it’s stays above 50* even when it’s below 0 outside I hope that’s enough



Are the ducts running through this cooler space insulated well?  If not this may be a problem.  IMHO.


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## Highbeam (Apr 15, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Are the ducts running through this cooler space insulated well?  If not this may be a problem.  IMHO.



It is very typical in my area to have supply ducts in the crawl space. They’re insulated and usually flex duct. Isn’t flex a problem?


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## lampmfg (Apr 16, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> You say that like its a bad thing...
> If you have never had a stove with a window then you wont miss it...but if you have, then you will...I do.
> But yeah, most of the time you just load the firebox and walk away....with a proper heat load it could/would be that way for sure...but OP may be a bit like me in that my house doesn't require mega BTU's to maintain temp, plus we have had a couple pretty mild winters since my VF100 install...anyways, since I am often running at about the bare minimum I am often scrapeing around for the last few coals to get things fired off again, so sometimes I will sit there for a few minutes to make sure the fire takes off.
> OP's house being 2000 ft of new build it may not have a high heat load either...but, he is also in what is typically a little colder area though too. I would still want to discuss with Lamppa the possibility that a VF200 would be a better fit than the larger VF100...I assume the VF200 will be re-released here shortly, @lampmfg ?



When we went back to test the VF200, they had installed new filters that hadn't been present during our previous R&D testing.  We have been going back and forth with them for a while about how to remedy the issue.  Before proceeding, we want to see how things play out with the EPA's handling of the Firechief Phase 2 model.  We are shooting for the fall, but it's not set in stone.


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