# Home Heating Options Other Than W ood



## DUMF (Jan 31, 2016)

Heating with wood only like many up here for decades. It is getting old; after last winter's dump the burning was into June--over 8 cords used.
What are some real options ? Baseboard hydronic (oil filled) heat units. Mini split heat pumps. Propane stoves. Geothermal is out of the question cause of rock.
Looked at solar panels for hot water or photovoltaic but both are pricey and with very long term payback.
Give us your ideas. We'd like to use our wood stoves as a "backup" to something that is warm and efficient and cheap.


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## DougA (Jan 31, 2016)

I think the majority of experts will tell you to invest money to ensure that your home is as energy efficient as possible. IOW make sure you have maximized the insulation and air infiltration first as that will give you the very best payback quickly.
I have put in one high SEER mini split unit and plan on adding more. The advantage is that you have cooling in the summer and heating in the winter from one unit. They are exceedingly quiet and they allow you to establish and regulate zones within your house. Normally, bedrooms can be cooler in the winter than the other living areas but that will vary from person to person. I put in one central air unit years ago and much prefer the split.


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## peakbagger (Feb 1, 2016)

I agree with the prior poster. Spend the money on energy efficiency. You are in the perfect state for getting help. Call up Efficiency Vermont and find out how to get an energy audit of your home. You are paying for this service as surcharge on your energy bill so might as well use it. I expect they will suggest energy improvements and then recommend a couple of minisplits. If you have good solar exposure you may want to consider solar to offset the increase in power usage.

If you do go with minisplits realize you need a backup heating system as it really does not work well much below zero. Unfortunately the efficiency and output drops as the temp drops so on cold VT nights you need something else. I live in northern NH and have cut my wood usage substantially by running a single minisplit. I generate more power than I use so am effectively heating the house for free. Last winter I used about 2.5 cords and expect this winter if the warm weather keeps up I will use much less.

The other thing to consider is what type of woodstove are you heating with and how dry is your wood. If you are heating with green wood (not seasoned for at least a year preferably 2) you can cut you wood usage by 30% just by burning seasoned wood. If you have an older pre EPA stove and switch to modern stove you can save even more.


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 1, 2016)

In many areas, wood burning and heat pumps can complement each other well. Let the heat pump keep the house comfortable when the weather is mild, which is when it works best, and fire up the stove when it gets cold out.

Since you're in a high cost of electricity state, electric resistance heat of any kind, such as electric baseboard heaters, is almost certainly your worst option.

If natural gas is available in your area, it would probably be your most cost-effective option. In my area, heat pumps tend to have an advantage, but I'm in a cheap electricity area where as I'm assuming you're paying 17-18 cents/kWh for electricity, and that makes a big difference in the ability of a heat pump to beat out the low cost of natural gas, and the lower initial cost of most gas heating appliances.

If there's no natural gas available, propane will probably be the lowest up-front cost, but a heat pump should cost less to operate and hopefully make up the price difference in 10 years or so.


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## peakbagger (Feb 1, 2016)

I would caution you that most home mortgages or insurance require a permanent heat source and a wood stove and minisplit does not typically qualify. Mitsubishi heat pumps physically shut off at -20 f and wont restart until -13 F. Down in that temp range it is putting out heat but not much and the air is decidedly not real warm. It also goes into defrost frequently. Fujitsu doesn't have the shut down issue and is advertised as continuing to put out heat no matter how low the temp goes. I don't have personal experience with a Fujitsu at very low temps but have seen a couple or reports that its output is substantially limited.

Realistically based on you usage I would expect you may need 50,000 btu/hr to maintain the house at temperature when its -20 F. You would need several mini splits to cover this. A wood stove is nice way to cover the difference but if you are not home to feed it, you could lose some pipes. Some folks advocate electric baseboards as backup, they are cheap to install if you have big enough electric service and as along as you use them only in situations where you cant run the stove they will not bankrupt you.


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## begreen (Feb 1, 2016)

I think it's usually the bank that wants a central or distributed heat system. They may be fine with the mini-split and I wouldn't mention the wood heat to them. Their main concern is resale of property if one defaults on the loan. If the bank does express concern then put in some baseboard heaters to satisfy their need. Insurance co's have different concerns, mostly safety and liability. They may want the installation inspected but if they normally cover wood stove installation then I don't think this would affect the mortgage.


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## DUMF (Feb 2, 2016)

Thanks. No mortgage, very tight, self built, well insulated place. No natural gas available.

One home we remodeled, a summer "camp", we had to deal with a bank for a construction loan then convert to a mortgage. Wood was what we would (sic) heat with. To satisfy the bank regs, we installed full non-hydronic, cheap electric baseboards that were never used.
The mini splits don't do well as said much below 0 F, then become inefficient resistance heaters. Grid costs are high up north. And, we don't much enjoy blown, heated air.

The question is which alternative heating source other than 100% wood has a reasonable cost ( leaving out the high initial cost and very long term amortization of any solar ), is efficient, clean, and has low operating costs ? Experiences ?


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## peakbagger (Feb 2, 2016)

Beyond raising a herd of animals and moving them in with you, there really are no low cost alternatives to wood  or we all would be using them. Fossil fuels are ultimately going to track each other pricewise  on a btu basis over the long run. Hard to beat 18000 btu/lb (oil)  or 11,000 but/lb (propane) for at best 6000 btu/lb for wood. So its pick your poison, oil or propane since you don't want wood, I tend to stick with oil as propane has a lower btu density and more limited delivery infrastructure in rural areas but the trade off is oil requires more maintenance. One may be cheap now but eventually it will catch up with the alternative. Geothermal fails your test for high cost and amortization test that you have created for solar. You weren't specific about what type of solar but solar space heating is a major challenge in VT and unless its tied into a very expensive building optimized for heat capture and storage its a none player. If you take a look at the suburbs of Montpelier you will see many examples of failed experiments of solar space heating. Wood and Solar Electric with net metering actually works quite well and is what I use for my house in NH but I don't think Vt utilities have that option available.  
I realize that the state is hodgepodge of utilities but in some areas the incentives for solar are real good. I expect you probably have reviewed all these programs but if you haven't its worth the time http://programs.dsireusa.org/system/program?state=VT.

Thus you are down to using less of what you got. A  " very tight, self built, well insulated place" is a relative term. Ideally there are Passivhaus structures in the region that have zero net energy bills.  The trade off is high initial building cost which is driven up by social engineering costs. Unfortunately Passivhaus doesn't  retrofit to an existing structure. The Pretty Good House concept developed in VT http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/guest-blogs/pretty-good-house tries to find the best fit between initial cost and energy use. In many cases, due to the severe climate, both concepts use energy (wood or  or minisplits)  as backup heat in the winter, they just offset it with some solar electric generation and either payments from Feed in Tariffs or net metering balance total energy use.  Based on your reported 8 cords usage  its highly likely that your building is not built to a  Pretty Good House or a Passivhaus level of insulation. Realize few existing houses are built this way as both require special techniques. Using the general conversion of cords to oil you effectively burnt 800 gallons of oil last year. Even without a minisplit, my 1987 vintage house (with a SHW system for domestic hot water) and about a cord a year of wood in a wood stove was around 300 gallons in similar climate.   Thus it looks from afar that you may have some opportunities to tighten up the house. If you haven't had a blower door test yet, get one and I expect you can make a big difference by just air sealing.  

Good luck on your quest.


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## Rhone (Feb 5, 2016)

I would double-check the solar option.  Here's some things to think about though:

Photovoltaic: No way.  It's 11-14% efficient converting sunlight into electricity, rebates are often tied to efficiency so your rebates per panel is dismal, if one cell gets blocked by shade that cell becomes a resistor all cells must overcome causing the panels efficiency to drop 50% (most have bypasses but you lose sections of the panel), and when the sun is at its best they are at their worst (the hotter the panel the lower their efficiency).  Plus very, very expensive compared to Hydronic solar.

Hydronic Solar: This is where you send a fluid (preferably a safe drinkable glycol) through panels and warm up the fluid.  Sunlight converts to heat very well, they are 60-85% efficient converting sunlight into heat, since rebates are typically tied to efficiency you get massive rebates per panel (one time I checked Massachusetts rebates and the cost of a panel was $812 and rebates per panel was $888 you would be paid $76 a panel).  There are 2 types, flat panels and evacuated tubes if you're thinking about evacuated tubes talk to me first almost all the benefits often listed for evacuated tubes is a sham (the biggest sham they do is compare equal apertures, comparing 32 sq ft evac to 32 sq ft FP's.  An evac that collects 32 sq ft of sunlight takes up 48-64 sq ft of space because of all the space between each tube, glass, header, while an FP takes up only 32 sq ft to collect 32 sq ft of sunlight!  If you compared an evac system that takes up 64 sq ft of roof (and collects 32 sq ft of sunlight) to an FP that takes up 64 sq ft of roof (and it will collects 64 sq ft of sunlight) no comparison  If you want me to continue what isn't to like about evacs, let me know.

I have Hydronic FP's I installed about 10 years ago.  I purchased it from Radiantsolar.com which is a Vermont company.   You can see their pricing here http://www.radiantsolar.com/solar_packages_and_pricing.php it can work with forced hot water because usually they put way too many baseboards in ones house, or the house has had an insulation overhaul since being built and now the baseboard

I live in VT too, I only did solar hot water.  That was a mistake, I'm getting too old and tired to deal with wood I really wished I'd done more solar panels and used it for heating it's frustrating for me to come home on a 45F sunny day at noon and I'm lighting a fire when I know had I done solar heating I'd be nice and warm and it'd be free.

Some things to consider about solar. 
1.) Rebates are once per house.  If you decide to do hot water like I did, then want to do heating later you'll get no rebates for doing the heating.  Plan and do hot water and heating at the same time to maximize rebates.
2.) You need radiant or forced hot water baseboard heating.  Radiant is best, forced hot water baseboards can work as most often they usually put in way too many of them and/or the house has had a full insulation upgrade later so it can work too.
3.) Solar is a low energy form of heating, typically 4 panels will collect the same energy per day as a single gallon of fuel oil.  Have 8 panels, it should collect the energy of 2 gallons fuel oil.  You say you burn 8 chords/year, that's a lot I typically burn around 1 chord.  I don't know if you're using an old stove in your basement to heat 3-4 floors that's what my old house was like.  I used to go through 5-6 chords with an old pre-EPA stove (circa 1974) in the basement to keep the main floor above around 70F.
4.) There's something strange about November - January in New England.  There's always about 4-8 weeks of cloudy days during those months, I'm not sure I remember a single year there wasn't.  Seems to start the 2nd week of November and go until January.  As a result, look at solar as being your free hot water and spring/fall heating and be happy with the occasional sunny day in mid-Winter.  I ended up angling my solar panels to maximize Spring & Fall and couldn't be happier.
5.) I got a 3 panel system with a 120 gallon tank (the kit from that page).  You want 2 tanks... one for the solar to act as a preheater and a another for your direct use.  I knew the 1 tank design I started with wasn't going to be as efficient, I was surprised how much so.  If you're interested I can explain why 1 tank will almost certainly cost you more than 2 in short order, no one should be doing the 1 tank.
6.) I have electric backup on my hot water tank, and I have a meter that measures how much energy my hot water tank uses.  So I know exactly how much additional boost I needed from my electric backup because my solar didn't fulfill the entire need.  From March2015 - February2016 I needed 331kw of electricity to boost the hot water tank for 3 of us, so my hot water is looking like it's $75-85 for the year.  This year January seems to been the cloudy month I used 62kW of electricity for hot water heating which accounts for 20% of the energy for the year.  My lowest month I needed 3kw for a boost.

Good luck!


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## peakbagger (Feb 5, 2016)

Gotta say, solar hydronic heating  is not something I hear up north often. I guess it must be the lack of net metering in VT?. Fundamentally the problem with solar hydronic heating  is the resource is 180 degrees out of sync with the demand. When you don't need the heat in the summer you have far more then you need and in the winter when you need the heat you have very little sun. This may work for heating domestic hot water but it means a huge array if sized for worse case winter use. With flat plates at best the temp rise is 80 deg F over ambient so on cold days you don't have much heat. With evacuated tubes you get much higher temps but the panels are less efficient and more expensive plus in general evac tubes have a poor reputation for longevity although it sounds like the prior poster must have gotten lucky and his are holding up. Many evac tubes folks gave up after replacing the tubes a few times and trying to find a company still in business. I have flat plates angled similarly which helps on summer overheating a bit but they still turn into a preheater for my DHW in winter as they don't get warm enough.

With net metering and PV I just use the utility for a battery that I charge up in the summer and then use the surplus in the winter in my mini split. I get about 3.1 COP on the mini split so even though my solar panels are "panel to meter" around 14% efficient the COP of the heat pump drives the effective electric efficiency into the 40% range. PV has actually gotten far less expensive, most folks are not installing SHW collectors anymore as the upfront cost of the system is far better spent on cheaper PV panels and a heat pump hot water heater. I expect if you get Feed In Tariffs for solar generation in VT, you bank them all summer  and then use the money you saved to pay the high power rates in the winter.


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## DUMF (Feb 5, 2016)

Solar 101: 
1. The upfront costs are high, more than most can pay out for both the panels AND installation.
2. Those "credits" are exactly that, credits,  based on income and tax categories and deductions. One has to have enough stated income to GET credits.
3. The payback or amortization is many many years; for most installations even the best solar marketers estimate it to be at least 10-15 years.
4. Now the real energy cost of manufacture---high again. These are high tech expensive units using high fossil materials e.g. silicone, old tech batteries, aluminum, etc..............
5. Wood is a true renewable, sustainable, romantic   heat. We're not giving it up but need another source. Practical ideas ?

In northern New England like Oregon, we do have high water flow. What about dams ? Tidal power for the coastal regions ?


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## woodgeek (Feb 6, 2016)

This one is easy.  If you want cheap up front and cheap to operate, and don't have natgas access, get a minisplit AND a propane heater.  

Prices of electricity are regulated, and the changes to the industry are mostly in the form of price pressures from new low cost sources coming on-line, cutting into profits.  A minisplit in VT will prob be lousy under arctic conditions, but will be dead cheap to operate when temps are above 20-25°F, and will provide AC/dehumidification, which will be useful from time to time.  And the cheap to operate will prob stay that way long-term.  Just mount it where it gets lots of air, above the snow line, and preferably out of the wind and rain.  And away from bedroom windows.  

When the mini is flailing due to extreme cold, you could do wood backup.  I find wood more fun doing it 1-2 mos a year than 4-6 mos a year.  Or to keep it simple you could go for elec baseboard backup.  You would prob get one biggish heating bill in Jan and Feb, that you would want to budget for,  Or you could go for propane, like a cheapo wall heater, or a (vented) fireplace unit.  Either could be thermostated and work in a power outage, and be nice to warm up fingers and toes as needed when it is super cold.  

Propane is a 'byproduct' of a lot of shale gas production, so most is domestically produced.  I think shale oil in the US will collapse, and the future price of oil could then be low or high....but I think we will be making a lot of nat gas in the US for awhile, and its price will compete with coal (now) and wind/solar (in the future), keeping its price (and that of propane) under control.

I guess the PITA with propane is folks with big houses that are all propane, who get giant buried tanks and have to 'rent' them.  I think if you are just using it for backup on the mini, you could get by with a smaller tank (or two), buy them outright, and just make sure they are filled in December or so.

If you want to go green, you could (i) buy green electricity (ii) burn more wood in an EPA appliance (iii) buy a second mini to cut propane usage further (iv) look at solar leasing options (which might be better in the future).  Some combination of these could get you nearly carbon neutral.

LAST: since you built your house...tell us the R_values of the insulation you use throughout, the window specs, and what you did for airtightness.  Unless you were well beyond 'code', you might still have opportunities for improvement, likely on airsealing.


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## georgepds (Feb 6, 2016)

peakbagger said:


> ...
> 
> With net metering and PV I just use the utility for a battery that I charge up in the summer and then use the surplus in the winter in my mini ......r.




This is what I do..works well (north Ma)... that and the epa wood stove...which reduced my wood use from 4 chords per winter down to 2


Finally..I kept the old propane wall heater.. for backup


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 6, 2016)

I have 3 types of heat ,Main boiler is coal, backup and shoulder season boiler is oil, and last but not least is the wood stove for any other occasion when time is available. Id like to try a mini split someday as well as i dont have central air.


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## pixelated (Feb 7, 2016)

Can the compressor section of a mini-split be placed in a crawl space?


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## woodgeek (Feb 7, 2016)

pixelated said:


> Can the compressor section of a mini-split be placed in a crawl space?



Nope.


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## Circus (Feb 7, 2016)

If you just want a break from feeding a wood burner once in a while, solar hot air will work. It isn't a primary heat source but when the sun shines you will be warm. Doesn't cost much if you build it yourself.  http://www.builditsolar.com/


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## St. Coemgen (Feb 8, 2016)

*Warning: *Buttoning up your home and eliminating air leaks to make it more energy efficient without an air/heat exchanger might also expose you to increased radon accumulation in the home. Radon test kits are cheap. Use them to make sure you are safe and okay.


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## DUMF (Feb 8, 2016)

Circus said:


> If you just want a break from feeding a wood burner once in a while, solar hot air will work. It isn't a primary heat source but when the sun shines you will be warm. Doesn't cost much if you build it yourself.  http://www.builditsolar.com/



Neat concept. We built oriented towards azimuth due south with full high end argon Marvins. In the low teens with Force 5-6 NW winds and mid-day sun the place stays comfie with stoves low. It's K.I.S.S. solar plus a mountain view.


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## DougA (Feb 8, 2016)

DUMF said:


> Neat concept. We built oriented towards azimuth due south with full high end argon Marvins. In the low teens with Force 5-6 NW winds and mid-day sun the place stays comfie with stoves low. It's K.I.S.S. solar plus a mountain view.


Same here. Large south facing windows, great view and free heat. In 30yrs, we've found Feb & March to be nearly 50% sunshine and the stove is off a lot.
Just have to ensure you have proper overhang and deciduous trees in front so there is no heat gain in the summer. Mid May can have too much sun with no leaves but it's a great time to open the windows and get fresh air. I actually had 2 windows open today with the sunshine.


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## DBoon (Feb 10, 2016)

St. Coemgen said:


> *Warning: *Buttoning up your home and eliminating air leaks to make it more energy efficient without an air/heat exchanger might also expose you to increased radon accumulation in the home. Radon test kits are cheap. Use them to make sure you are safe and okay.


Eliminating air leaks, especially in a ceiling, will reduce the stack effect in a home that may be the primary contributor to a de-pressurized basement that causes radon to seep into the house.  So it is not necessarily true that air sealing will increase radon concentrations.  Test in any case, but don't assume that proper air sealing will increase radon levels in a home.


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## woodgeek (Feb 11, 2016)

While I am obviously a big fan of airsealing, one does need to respect combustion safety (test for backdrafts) and check for radon.  The latter is cheap and easy.
Interesting radon fact: Most people that radon kills are smokers.  Its lung cancer effect is highly synergistic with cigarette smoke.  Non-smokers see little increased risk.


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## semipro (Feb 11, 2016)

woodgeek said:


> Interesting radon fact: Most people that radon kills are smokers. Its lung cancer effect is highly synergistic with cigarette smoke. Non-smokers see little increased risk.


Though I've read some on radon I'd not seen that.  
Thanks!.  It reassures me a bit since no one at our house smokes.  Our house tested just above the recommended threshold and I've been sealing the basement foundation trying to address the issue passively rather than installing a ventilation system.


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## peakbagger (Feb 11, 2016)

You may not be off the hook  completely on non smoking radon exposure. There is also research that using unvented gas appliances (like cooking stoves) introduce fine particulates in the air that can cause a similar but far less impact.

I am currently out of electrical and heating projects for awhile so I am addressing indoor air quality in my house. I am a non smoker but plan to install an air to air heat exchanger system and activated charcoal  filters on my incoming water supply for radon removal. I looked at the aeration systems for radon and felt with my low water usage that I didn't want to put up with the moving parts and high horsepower load. I may install sub slab ventilation but will wait for testing after the radon is mitigated on the incoming water.


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## semipro (Feb 11, 2016)

peakbagger said:


> There is also research that using unvented gas appliances (like cooking stoves) introduce fine particulates in the air that can cause a similar but far less impact.


That's one reason we don't cook with gas.  Water generation and the odor are others.


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## woodgeek (Feb 11, 2016)

Yar.  I would worry more about nat gas combustion in a sealed house than 'threshold' radon.

As for the stats, the radon signal is quite obvious in population studies.  But if you screen out all the smokers, the remaining effect is hard to detect/quantify.

Of course, none of this is to say that radon should not be taken seriously, or smoking for that matter! Or an excuse for not testing.


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## peakbagger (Feb 12, 2016)

There are some significant hot spots for radon near me in western maine and northern NH. My well is 320 feet into granite and its definitely the source for my house. In many cases it comes down to other factors. Unfortunately the states went overboard and put in regulations that are abused. Typically when a house is on the market and contract is signed the home inspection flags radon. Both parties are in rush so the local radon professional is called and can charge a high rate to get it cured quickly. In most states, radon systems have to be installed and maintained by a professional and many companies will only sell their equipment through licensed dealers. I have seen the markups on the materials they use and it is outrageous. Inevitably the homeowners get socked with a long term service contract so they keep paying for it. One of the reasons I am going with activated charcoal is that its common equipment so can I buy it from any plumbing supply house and not pay a markup. I also don't plan to treat the used cartridges like low level nuclear waste which many states do.

A friend had cut granite foundation and had radon issues. It was recommended that he install subslab depressurization, he ended up routing his furnace flue damper bypass down to floor level . Radon is heavier than air so the draft in his chimney would pull the radon up from the floor. He tested a few weeks later and he was below the action level.

When the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant was being decommissioned, the contract wanted to pulverize the containment vessel and leave it on site. The locals objected so it was hauled off as low level nuclear waste at great cost. The resultant hole was filled by locally quarried material used for most construction purposes, there was a higher level of radioactivity in the new material then there was in the containment dome they haled off.


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## semipro (Feb 12, 2016)

So is the problem with radon is water ingestion, inhalation (e.g. during showering) or both? 
Good to know about the density of radon also.  That may change my strategies for dealing with it. 
I figured once I finish my basement renovations I'd test again to see if I need to worry about it.


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## peakbagger (Feb 12, 2016)

My understanding is the primary risk with radon in the water is inhalation. Radon is a gas dissolved in the water, when it goes from a higher pressure to lower pressure the gas is released. There is also a temperature effect, the dissolved gases are released easier, the hotter the water. (those familiar with industrial boilers are familiar with Deareators that removed dissolved gases with steam) Most low flow showers, faucets, toilets  and even dishwaters all aerate the water and strip out the radon gas  where it then goes into the air and sinks if its not inhaled. A shower with a low flow head is probably the worst combination. The air wash radon removal systems for water basically are a vented tank with a blower in it. The water is sprayed in a fine mist and air is blow through the stream of water, the air stream is them run through a mist eliminator and vented outdoors. The water at the bottom of the vessel then needs to be re-pressurized for use, which means horsepower for the blower and the additional pump. The activated carbon filters usually are three in row, one fine particulate filter to keep the junk out of the carbon, the next filter is activated carbon and that takes out some percentage of the radon and many other dissolved chemicals like lead by absorption and then there is final activated carbon filter for further removal. There is some increase in well pump horsepower but a lot less than the air wash type system. Garden hoses are tapped up stream of the filter. The comment about nuclear waste is not a complete joke, eventually the filters get slightly radioactive, sort of like a smoke  detector and in some areas it has to be disposed of as such. This is really a risk to the guy that makes his living changing filters compared to homeowner who might do it once a year, but an activated carbon mask may be good idea when changing filters.   My research is if you have typical well water the cartridges might need to be changed out yearly. I don't have low flow toilet but expect I will get one to reduce water flow and would consider switching my well pump to constant pressure control with the Franklin electric conversion. Generally the filters  are lot larger than a typical home water filter but they are standardized so there are multiple suppliers. Activated carbon filters saturate so unless the homeowner wants to send out for water test every year or so, I expect that you change the filters by gallons processed so I expect a couple of differential pressure gauges across the filters and a water meter would help in planning filter changes. An air wash system requires less homeowner maintenance so its a trade off between front end cost and ongoing cost.

Most air radon tests require that the test kit be set in basement on the floor in an area without a lot of traffic , I expect that is worst case.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 23, 2016)

How do wood pellets figure into this mix ,they are more automatic than a wood stove ,lot less work ect.


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## mass_burner (Jul 23, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> How do wood pellets figure into this mix ,they are more automatic than a wood stove ,lot less work ect.


From what I read on here, they're just as much work, but different.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 24, 2016)

How about converting your property into a radon spa?
https://www.spadreams.com/radon-3314sxa/


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 24, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> From what I read on here, they're just as much work, but different.


Im still using coal in the coldest months. We get some wicked cold winter months here in central pa and that tiny coal boiler can take on the best of them. Was considering pellets but not near as much heat energy in them compared to coal. I would ,like to try minisplits for the shoulder seasons.
 I love my wood stove but not the work of 24/7 exclusive burning for heat.


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## Highbeam (Jul 26, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> How do wood pellets figure into this mix ,they are more automatic than a wood stove ,lot less work ect.



I read the whole thread and couldn't believe that nobody mentioned pellets. They are much less work than wood, both in processing and in burning. The pellet stoves are thermostatic, easy to install, cheaper than most central systems, and burn times can be very long compared to most woodstoves.

My home has electric wall heaters that haven't seen power for several years as a backup to wood. If I had to switch from cordwood it would be to swap out the freestanding woodstove for a freestanding pellet or gas stove. In my part of the country we don't heat with water and we don't need AC.


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## DUMF (Sep 9, 2016)

Highbeam said:


> I read the whole thread and couldn't believe that nobody mentioned pellets. They are much less work than wood, both in processing and in burning. The pellet stoves are thermostatic, easy to install, cheaper than most central systems, and burn times can be very long compared to most woodstoves.
> 
> My home has electric wall heaters that haven't seen power for several years as a backup to wood. If I had to switch from cordwood it would be to swap out the freestanding woodstove for a freestanding pellet or gas stove. In my part of the country we don't heat with water and we don't need AC.



Ah yes, pellets. Not reliable in northern New England's climate and an unreliable supply.
As for the pellet stoves---
Don't produce an equivalent BTU output to a similar sized wood stove.
They need power ( our winter storms are often serious and colder compared to Washington ). We lose power many times each winter( yes, got generator).
They are noisy.
No beautiful flames.
Require frequent cleaning and maintenance..
Do not have a long life ( moving parts, a motor exposed to high temps).
Have yet to see a 'pretty' pellet stove like an Oslo for example.
They do take some effort: the 40 lb pellet bags ain't so simple for your grandma to lift into the hopper.


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## byQ (Sep 10, 2016)

The most under utilized resource is what you should use. And there are 2 things you need to do to use it. First capture it and than keep it from escaping. What? The sun. Capture it by having south facing glass with dark thermal mass (like rock) for it to absorb into. Note the color black will absorb way more than a light color - like twice as much.

And to keep the solar gain from escaping? Someone mentioned triple pane argon filled windows. But there is a much better way that is relatively cheap - thermal shutters. Your work will involve opening and closing these on a daily basis - hey that is a lot easier than working with firewood. The shutters are placed on the inside of the house with neoprene gaskets (without gaskets you will have internal ice on windows). They are constructed with insulation stuck between two pieces of plywood. Four or five inches of insulation will whip triple pane windows several fold.

Engineers? Scientists? Government agencies? No, monks. It looks like they insulated the whole building.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 10, 2016)

My daily maintenance in the solar porch is easy. i simply open the steel insulated door to the main house in the morning and close it in the evening once the temp drops to 70 or so,usually about 2 hours after sundown. Sunny days provide most of my heating for 3000 Sf.


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## DUMF (Sep 11, 2016)

Interesting comment in the postings on insulating shades.
Now, could we calculate how many BTUs gained from those shades vs another heating source such as some form of central heating or 
our preferred electric hydronic baseboards to install under the windows ?
Most of you have some kind of central heating --oil, gas, electric--with wood as a "backup". How many have nothing except perhaps 'space' heating ?
Wood (sic) the engineer brains speak to this how to figure out a gain from insulating shades ?
Great idea that we didn't consider.

P.S. We don't have hi speed broadband here, just limited slow irregular connection. That is why I don't stay logged in to any site.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 11, 2016)

byQ has the right idea. First we get a trap as much of the "Free" heat as we can. Only then try to find economical,environmental and sustainable ways to make the rest of what we need. Great combination Solar and wood. There used to be a member posting on here about how he froze at times in his 60s solar house during prolonged cloudy days,slept in the closet!. A wood stove would have been perfect for him.


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