# Got a little project going this week........



## heaterman (Nov 23, 2014)

Background:
This farmer cash crops his own land and does custom tillage, manure hauling, harvesting and commodity handling for other farms all over Northern Michigan. He has an 8,500 sq ft heated maintenance/repair shop to service his machinery. The back part, which is over 13,000 sq ft was not heated and was used simply as parking area for all the tractors, harvesters and implements.
The business has grown to the point where they can not cycle all the machines and tractors through the existing heated area during winter downtime. He needed more space so they ripped the concrete out of the back area and hired us to heat it.
_(NOTE: Always put insulation and tube in cement even if you'll "never" heat it)_

We put down 2" of foam under the slab and the same on the edge, placed about 14,000 ft of 3/4" pex in 3 zones and they poured 6" of new cement on it about 6 weeks ago.

The current 8,500 was heated with radiant floor and btu's are generated with a 7260 Central Boiler. Despite being well insulated, they have always had difficulty maintaining temp in that area, partly due to the piping and tube arrangement and partly due to lack of output from the Central. Last winter they went through 5 or 6 semi loads of wood and the shop was rarely above 60*.

We went through a number of heating options including more efficient wood burners, waste oil boilers, LP gas, water to water heat pumps and pellets and came to the conclusion that pellet boiler(s) with automated feed made the most sense and offered the quickest ROI.
His main issue with wood burning was the labor involved. When outdoor temps were at 10* or less, the Central had to be tended every 4 hours, even during the night. If they missed the 2AM "feeding" it would take all the next day to bring the water temp back up. The thought of heating all that additional space even with an efficient wood boiler system sounded like far too much labor. Processing and handling what would figure out to be around 70-80 cords of wood demands at least one full time employee. Didn't want to go there.

So we went with the new XL series Windhagers. 3 of 'em.
The boilers came in the 13th and we spent most of the 17th hauling them and other materials to the job site. (Deer season opener got in the middle of that...........)
The Windhagers are very heavy. shipping weight for 4 of them was 11,500 pounds! Getting them off the pallets and set on the floor made me glad to have a Matt. Everyone should have a Matt when moving heavy stuff. 

Marc Caluwe had called and said Martin Westermayer, Windhager's field service tech was in the US and wanted to help with installation, set up and commissioning. They were coming the 19th so it was pedal to the metal, 16 hour days Monday and Tuesday getting started. Martin and Marc showed up Wednesday afternoon and stayed at my place until Saturday. In between handling all their other phone calls and e-mails they pitched right in and helped make things go exceedingly well........Thanks to both of you

We wanted to get the boilers piped and fired by Friday night and we managed to do that. It was amazing to see something that size putting out <50ppm CO and efficiency in the 84-86% range.










1st picture: My boys doing what they do.
2nd Picture: 3 pick up heads bolted to the floor in the bulk bin. I sized it to hold a usable quantity of 10-11 tons.
3rd picture: Matt. Everyone needs a Matt when the steel get to 2" and pipe wrenches are a yard long.
4th picture. L-R Andy Ebels (Head pipe fitter for Ebels Heating), Martin Westermayer (the European Standard), Marc Caluwe, (AKA Mr Windhager himself.)

Note: If you ever run into Martin someday, do not mention steak to him. You'll wind up buying him one.


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## heaterman (Nov 23, 2014)

One more with 'em all in a row.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 24, 2014)

Went to Windhager site.  Exclusiv is now discontinued (oh well, that was quick).
What are the differences with the Excel?  Is that the replacement for the Exclusiv, or is there another one?  I see with the Excel direct outside air is now possible, and the door to the firebox looks different, and the ppellet side isn't as high, but that's just what I kind of see.


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## heaterman (Nov 24, 2014)

The Exclusive is still tin the line. The Excel  (XL) is the commercial model which comes in 35,45 and 60KW output  The ones in the pictures are all 60's. (205,000btu)
The XL is bin feed only and is a much larger framed unit than the Exclusive. They weigh about a ton and a half each.


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## JBainbridge (Nov 24, 2014)

Very impressive
Are you using a buffer tank on this setup? 
Do all three units run independently where only one would fire up when the heat demand is low and the other two would only run as needed? 
Thanks for sharing!


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## velvetfoot (Nov 24, 2014)

heaterman said:


> The Exclusive is still tin the line.


Ok.  I guess I just saw that they were discontinued in the UK-it is indeed still on the main Windhager site.  The Windhager model line choice is a little confusing to me.  According to the Windhager site  the XL is made from 10-240 kw.  
http://www.windhager.co.uk/products/wood-pellet-boilers/biowin-plus/


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## Gasifier (Nov 24, 2014)

Wow. Nice work.


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## stee6043 (Nov 24, 2014)

Silly question - how is it these rigs can share a flue? 

Very nice looking setup though.


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## Gasifier (Nov 24, 2014)

Would it be because they all burn the same fuel and run at the same time?


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## heaterman (Nov 24, 2014)

Jodi... Thanks   Yes there is a buffer tank on the system. Mainly for hydraulic separation of the boiler and system side but a little cushion for excess heat when the boiler(s) go into burnout mode. We haven't started the control wiring yet but it's pretty basic. Each of 6 main zones will be run through a standard Taco SR506 pump control. Signal that there is a heat call will go from that to a Tekmar 274 multi boiler control that will stage the boilers as needed and also rotate them to maintain equal run time.
Windhager would like to see a buffer tank of about 300 gallons on a system like this. We have room for an 80 and that's it so I am taking other precautions with an aquastat controlled "dump" zone on one of the main areas of the 13,000 sq ft shop floor. Bleeding a few hundred thousand btu's of excess heat into that slab won't even make a ripple in the temperature of the building.

Velvet.....At some point I'm sure the BioWin will be updated or replaced in the product line just like anything else. As of now though it is a current model here in the US and elsewhere.

Mr Robertson.... The flue size is a question that remains to be answered. The deck above the boiler room is set up for storage of parts, bulk oil containers etc and was layed out with 14" TJI's on 12" centers. I would have liked to use a single 10" Class A flue for this but it won't fit between the joists. 8" was max. If we find that it will not provide enough volume for 600,000 btu, we will install an additional 6" flue and drop one of the boilers into that. The flue draws like someone is sitting on top of the 24' stack with a shop vac so we might be able to get away with it. Other than that there is no problem venting multiple appliances into a common stack. 

Gasfier....That is indeed a factor. They all have to run the same fuel. These boilers will be controlled in such a manner that output might be anywhere between 70,000 to 600,000 at any given time. They can modulate and run independently or simultaneously.


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## heaterman (Dec 30, 2014)

Well this will be interesting........

The builder finally got the new portion of the construction where the boilers are located all closed up and we can finish our piping in there to the floor zones.
Problem is though...........they are out of cordwood to feed the CB 7260 connected to the old part of the shop and the owner says he really isn't fond of the idea of buying more firewood.
So we are going to wire up one of the XL's today to temporarily run just the old part of the building because we are a week or so from being able to fire up the whole thing.

Right now the weather is single digits to low teens and the CB is chuffing along at 100% output, maintaining system water temp at about 155-160. It's maxed out.
The interesting part will be seeing if a single XL can keep up with the demand the CB is now serving. 
We'll know by tomorrow and I'll report back. The portion of the structure being heated is about 8500 sq ft with 20' ceilings and 3 overhead doors large enough to drive a locomotive through. I'm thinking it will be a pretty good test for a single XL.........


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## JBainbridge (Dec 31, 2014)

Hey Steve
Any updates on how the single XL is fairing?


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## Karl_northwind (Jan 2, 2015)

That's an awesome application.  Please keep us updated.  I would love to see 3 XLs in operation.  they're going to be blown away by the results of that install.
Pic 1 looks like one of our jobs, IE: a coffee mug on nearly every flat surface. 

k


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## heaterman (Jan 3, 2015)

Just checked it early this morning.....
There were 2 out of 5 zones calling for heat, approximately 5,000 sq ft of floor. 
The demand aquastat in the small buffer is set to 160*, the XL was at 162* with same temp water going out to the mix valves.
The operating aquastat setting on the XL itself is dialed in at 158
Boiler was firing at 43% output and maintained that 162* temp right on the button for the 15 minutes I was there observing. Yesterday when they were working in there and shuttling machines in and out the 24x16 overhead door, we saw it running between 65-90% most of the day.

We actually fired up the Windhager at 10AM on the 31st so it has been heating the structure for right at 3 days now. 
It used .36 Tons of pellets so far.  19 start/stop cycles. Combustion tests have shown between 84-87% depending on water temp and output%.
Wood use with the CB ran in the range of 500-600# per day vs what looks to be about 200# of pellets. The auto fill could not work any better.

Next week we do the wiring and set up on the Tekmar boiler control, Taco zone control, install the low temp mixing valves and pumps and fire up the new 13,000 sq ft slab. 
That'll  make all 3 of 'em bark pretty good.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 3, 2015)

I thought I recognized Marc Caluwe. He brings chip boilers to the trade shows we sponsor in Vermont and Maine.

Beautiful project!

Hard to find pellets this year, so I hope they lined up a good supply in advance.


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## heaterman (Jan 3, 2015)

Eric Johnson said:


> I thought I recognized Marc Caluwe. He brings chip boilers to the trade shows we sponsor in Vermont and Maine.
> 
> Beautiful project!
> 
> Hard to find pellets this year, so I hope they lined up a good supply in advance.



17 Tons sitting in the shop right now in bulk bags and another 20 tons to be picked up in a couple weeks at the mill about 40 miles away.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 3, 2015)

It's nice to have a pellet plant close by. Around here, both of the "local" mills do bulk deliveries--or you can pick up loads at the mill.


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## JBainbridge (Jan 3, 2015)

Eric Johnson said:


> It's nice to have a pellet plant close by. Around here, both of the "local" mills do bulk deliveries--or you can pick up loads at the mill.


I wish i could do that. I'm only about 20 miles from pro pellets but they wouldn't let me buy direct unless i were to buy a semi load.


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## heaterman (Jan 3, 2015)

JBainbridge said:


> I wish i could do that. I'm only about 20 miles from pro pellets but they wouldn't let me buy direct unless i were to buy a semi load.



Well we can fix you up with an auto fill for your BioWin and let them drop 10 tons at a time


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## heaterman (Jan 3, 2015)

Good test coming up Monday with a high of 3* predicted.


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## BoilerMan (Jan 3, 2015)

Steve, are you are you using the outdoor reset for mixing or just the setpoint of the tank for boiler demand? Nice looking install, creative venting too  Are there any fan-coils for quick heat or 100% radiant? 

I do a lot of multiple boiler jobs, but never with anything fun like pellets. Always oil and LP.  

TS


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 4, 2015)

JBainbridge said:


> I wish i could do that. I'm only about 20 miles from pro pellets but they wouldn't let me buy direct unless i were to buy a semi load.



Right now they might be hard to get in any quantity. Both mills are going full-bore and can't meet their orders from retailers and wholesalers. OTOH, I suspect they'd want to protect their existing customer base if possible. Don't want to run good customers off.

They do make pellet delivery trucks in Europe, and I think it's just a matter of time before enterprising entrepreneurs on this side of the Atlantic start getting those trucks and delivering orders to residential customer. Here's one on display a few years ago at a bioenergy fair in Sweden. It blows the pellets through that hose into a bin in your garage or basement. Not having to deal with all those 40-lb bags would probably justify paying a premium per ton, as strange as that might seem. And, I imagine the mill would be willing to cut a deal, since they don't have to mess with the bags, either.

Great opportunity for some young go-getter.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 4, 2015)

Eric Johnson said:


> Great opportunity for some young go-getter.


With a bunch of money.

Vincent's Heating and Fuel out in Poland, NY, NW of Utica, delivers in bulk as well as installs pellet boilers.
http://www.vincentsheating.com/


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## BoilerMan (Jan 4, 2015)

We have one local pellet mill and one independent oil company has a pneumatic bulk delivery truck IIRC it is about a $20 dollar premium for bulk delivery in a residential setting. 

TS


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## JP11 (Jan 4, 2015)

I've seen a few pellet delivery companies here in Maine.  Handy to have a year's worth of fuel all stored in. Of course.. i can fit 10 cords on my pallet racking in the barn.  Does take about 15 minutes to move a cord from the barn to the house.

JP


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## heaterman (Jan 7, 2015)

BoilerMan said:


> Steve, are you are you using the outdoor reset for mixing or just the setpoint of the tank for boiler demand? Nice looking install, creative venting too  Are there any fan-coils for quick heat or 100% radiant?
> 
> I do a lot of multiple boiler jobs, but never with anything fun like pellets. Always oil and LP.
> 
> TS



We will be using the Tekmar just as a setpoint controller and of course staging and rotating the boilers.
Just purged the loops in the new part of the building yesterday afternoon and today so that 13,000 sq ft is up and running. Flipping the pumps on for those zones made the boilers stand up and take notice of what was going on. First time we have seen all 3 at 100% output. 

The owner asked if there was some way we could install auxiliary heat that could be turned on and off independent of room temp when we were in the design phase of the project. He wanted something he could turn on when needed for deicing equipment when they take it inside.
We installed a pair of Modine vertical discharge units on the ceiling and set them up with 12 hour timers controlling them instead of thermostats. We've been heating the new area of the shop with them until today.

A couple things...........The reason for his request was graphically illustrated today when they drove in one of his 300+hp tractors with a 9,000 gallon manure tanker behind it.
There was probably 3 inches of solid, frozen poop and ice on the outside of the tank along with what was frozen to the interior walls. I asked the owner how much the total rig weighed and he said about 66,000#. Dry. So add another 5-6,000# for what was frozen on.
A little back of the napkin math indicated dragging that much steel, iron, rubber, plastic and poo from 0* up to 40ish would soak up around 1.8MMbtu!
In other words, the full system output for 3 hours. I had figured some capacity into my load calc for such a purpose but neglected to ask him the weight of what he wanted thawed out. I guessed it at maybe 30,000#. ZIKES!! They bring those in one at a time and give them overnight to thaw out so we should be OK.

So this brings up the other thing I wanted to mention. Radiant heat
At the time they pulled that piece of machinery into the old shop there was only one zone calling in the wash bay and the room temps were all stable at 61* T-stat setting.
Only one boiler was running and the other two were shut off on their internal aquastats. They pulled that 35 Tons of iron and steel into the shop and within 2 minutes every zone except the office was calling for heat! Air temp only dropped to 58* but that huge amount of cold mass literally sucked heat from the floor. Within 10 minutes of the machinery getting parked inside all 3 boilers had fired and were ramped up to between 60-80% output. They were chewing on that load hard. It was stunning to realize the amount of heat flux moving from the btu's stored in the 6" slab up into that cold metal. All zones except the one under the tractor satisfied within about 30 minutes but the boiler were still pounding out around 350-400,000 btu into that slab of about 4,000 sq ft. It would seem that the entire slab was pouring heat into the big iron. Normal floor supply/return temps are 110 in and about 90-95 out but we watched as the return temp dropped into the 75* range giving us a 35* T.
Wow! just WOW!!

And here's another thing. The front part of the shop was existing radiant, the new part in back has been heated with the Modines mentioned above for the last week. We could not believe the difference in the "feel" of each area even though they were both sitting at 60*. The radiant side of the building felt warm and comfortable for working. The Modine/forced air side felt a bit chilly even though the air temp was the same. I have never had a building that I was able to observe a side by side comparison of forced air VS radiant slab in such an identical situation where air temp, building construction and all other details were the same. The difference in comfort level of the radiant side was hard to believe.

Sorry to ramble .......... a lot of cool things going on with this project.


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## JP11 (Jan 8, 2015)

Wow.  I guess the savings is there, but, boy howdy.... that guy is spending some bucks on heat!  I take it the customer is happy with the performance?  I can see where his old boiler would really need full time help feeding it.  Is he going to feed those things with bags?  Sorry if I missed it before.. but how big are the   hoppers?


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## heaterman (Jan 8, 2015)

They auto fill from a 13 Ton bin JP. These will heat his place for about 1/2 the cost of LP gas and when you're talking a couple grand a month for gas that adds up. 
And yes, he is smiling.


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## heaterman (Jan 10, 2015)

Fired up the 13,000 sq ft of slab heat in the remodeled section of his building on Thursday (8th). Previous to that the boiler(s) were stoking the existing slab which totals about 9,000, plus 2 Modine vertical discharge heaters rated at 95,000 each.
Amazing to watch that much horsepower chew on a load like that. What a ton of heat to raise that floor 30*!
The entire 22,000+ sq ft is now running 61-62* with the offices sitting at 70. The secretary strolled through the boiler room yesterday and commented that this is the first time she hasn't had to run the electric heater in her office since the place was built 8 years ago............makes me grin when I hear things like that..  Outdoor temps were single digits to below 0 all day yesterday and Thursday when we pulled the trigger so we are pretty much at design/worst case conditions. Wind was running between 10-20mph along with it. Even the local snowy owls were holed up somewhere out of the wind.

Total pellet use since fire up on December 31 stands at 2.33 Tons as of a couple hours ago when I checked to see how everything was stabilizing. (all boilers were asleep) The system ate nearly 1,200 #  on the day we fired up the 13,000 sq ft section but I was expecting something like that really. The floor was in the low 30* range and it took it up to about 64* in less than 24 hours. The next day the entire building used only 210# of pellets.
Water temp going to all zones is currently set at 110* and returns vary from 70* to about 90* depending on the zone.
We are going to track daily use and outdoor avg temp for the next month to try and get a handle on what annual pellet use might be.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 10, 2015)

heaterman said:


> We are going to track daily use


Do you get this info from the control panel?


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## heaterman (Jan 10, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> Do you get this info from the control panel?



Pellet use ( in 1/100 of a ton) is one of the line items on the control. Same operating system as your BioWin. 
I simply made up a chart showing the date, amount used on each boiler and the OD temp and we or someone there write the info down.


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## jebatty (Jan 11, 2015)

> heaterman: These will heat his place for about 1/2 the cost of LP gas and when you're talking a couple grand a month for gas that adds up.


 Compliments on a great installation. Your comment brought to mind the energy cost savings at Deep Portage with the switch from LP gas to cordwood biomass (Wood Gun, Garn and Froling). The two cold winters for calendar 2007 and 2008 had LP gas energy cost of $46,000 average for each year. The two cold winters for calendar 2013 and 2014 had wood energy cost of $28,500 average for each year with near complete elimination of LP. That's savings of about $1500/month on a 12 month basis, but of course much higher if just the heating season months were counted. If a business rather than an environmental learning center, then all those savings go right to the bottom line, and for an educational institution those savings go to more scholarships and improved services. For both those savings are multiplied by the health and societal savings and benefits from using a sustainable and renewable energy source.


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## JP11 (Jan 11, 2015)

I love the pellet boilers for many reasons.  The fact that the cost is cheaper is great.  But the cost is FANTASTIC when you think about the fact that the money is STAYING LOCAL!  If you're burning oil, much of that money might be going overseas.  If you're burning pellets, you're supporting jobs at most a couple states away.  Loggers, Truckers, guys at the mill.. and ALL of those guys have good paychecks, that they spend at the local car dealer, corner coffee shop, etc., etc.

I wish it was catching on faster.  I live in the most forested state in the nation.  We could sustainably harvest a LOT more wood.

JP


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## velvetfoot (Jan 11, 2015)

heaterman said:


> Pellet use ( in 1/100 of a ton) is one of the line items on the control. Same operating system as your BioWin.
> I simply made up a chart showing the date, amount used on each boiler and the OD temp and we or someone there write the info down.


I might do that too.  I've been keeping track of the cycle times too for tweaking purposes.


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## heaterman (Jan 14, 2015)

Well we found out what kind of power those babies have yesterday. 
AND we found out the amount of fuel it takes to generate that power.

Yesterday of all days, the crew showed up to seal coat the 13,000 sq ft of new concrete in the building. Temperature at 8AM when they started was 62* inside and -23* outside at the site. 
The coating material is a very high VOC liquid that will give you a buzz you will never forget if applied without ventilation. So............ The 20' wide overhead doors on the north and south ends of the building were raised about 2 feet to allow fresh air into the space.

At -23* 

All 3 boilers sat at 100% output for nearly 7 hours straight sucking fuel like it was going out of style. The high outdoor temp for the entire day barely made it above 0* and the doors were raised from 8AM to about 3:30PM when they finished up.

The building temp never dropped below 50* as indicated on the thermostats. But the pellet use! Oooo la laaaa Between the 3 of them they gulped or maybe inhaled is a better word, .41 Tons or a tad over 800# of pellets in the 24 hour period from about 5PM Monday to 5PM Tuesday. 
At temperatures ranging from -20's to about 0. With the doors cracked open.
I don't think that the pellet use is out of line given those conditions and quite frankly am amazed the system was able to keep the building in the 50* range. 
Those big babies were hogging all day long.


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## sloeffle (Jan 15, 2015)

heaterman said:


> We actually fired up the Windhager at 10AM on the 31st so it has been heating the structure for right at 3 days now.
> It used .36 Tons of pellets so far.  19 start/stop cycles. Combustion tests have shown between 84-87% depending on water temp and output%.
> Wood use with the CB ran in the range of 500-600# per day vs what looks to be about 200# of pellets. The auto fill could not work any better.


Great thread. I wish more of the farmers in my area would not be in love with their OWB's as much as they are. Probably a different topic for another day.

Back on topic. Based on the number above and some number crunching. I came up with the efficiency of the OWB at around 29% in this case. Does that seem in the ballpark ?


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## heaterman (Jan 15, 2015)

sloeffle said:


> Great thread. I wish more of the farmers in my area would not be in love with their OWB's as much as they are. Probably a different topic for another day.
> 
> Back on topic. Based on the number above and some number crunching. I came up with the efficiency of the OWB at around 29% in this case. Does that seem in the ballpark ?



I would err on the charitable side and call it 35-40%.


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## Willman (Jan 15, 2015)

> There was probably 3 inches of solid, frozen poop and ice on the outside of the tank along with what was frozen to the interior walls



I was wondering how the thawed waste on the floor is handled. Piped right to the lagoon maybe. A digester would be the ticket on this farm.


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## heaterman (Jan 16, 2015)

Yes it's piped right to the pit. He raises a couple hundred dairy cattle to sell to other local dairy farms but has no milking operation himself. The waste output from them and the wash water is far below what would be needed to provide usable gas output for any kind of viable energy generation.

I know that some of the big dairies around here with 2000+ head actually milking have looked into digesters and all say there is no actual payback. Especially when they calculate what is lost in soil nutrients because they are not recycling it back on their fields.
2000 head producing milk means there are actually close to 3000 head on the farm from calves to heifers just coming fresh for the first time. That is a lot of poop.


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## Willman (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks I learned something today


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## heaterman (Jan 24, 2015)

99% complete. A couple stove pipe hangers to install and some additional tweaking on the Tekmar but the system is basically done. 

We've been tracking pellet use since start up 12/31 and yesterday the total was 4.86 tons. So a fuzzy bit over 400 pounds per day average. 
Call it 8,250btu per pound and you're at 3,340,000btu's/day or 140,000 per hour. Pretty amazing for the size of the building and what they are heating. 
Call me a believer in pole barn type construction done well and stuffed with blown cellulose in the walls. Attic has 14" of blown in and those huge overhead doors ar 2" foam filled. Insulation doesn't cost, it pays.

We wound up setting the Tekmar to run water temp in the buffer tank based on OD reset. Most days in the 15-25 degree range water temp target is 130 - 140*, which the Windhagers will easily tolerate. 

Back to those average numbers.....You look at that and say, good grief you could heat that with a 140-160Kbtu boiler. On average, yes you could. But conditions outside are never average. We had a 3 day stretch between -25 and 0* and I watched all 3 boilers run at about 70-80% output for the 3 hours I was there. One of those days was when the guys spraying floor sealer on the cement  decided to show up and the building ran all day with the North and South doors raised 2' to keep the vapors tolerable inside. They ran 100% all day that day.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 24, 2015)

heaterman said:


> He raises a couple hundred dairy cattle


This sounds like a MUCH bigger operation than that....


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## velvetfoot (Jan 24, 2015)

heaterman said:


> We wound up setting the Tekmar to run water temp in the buffer tank based on OD reset


Would you be so kind as to run this by me slowly?


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## GENECOP (Jan 25, 2015)

That setup is a true THING OF BEAUTY......amazing.....


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## heaterman (Jan 25, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> Would you be so kind as to run this by me slowly?



The Tekmar can be programmed to target a fixed set point or a variable temp based on how cold it is outside.The boilers still run independently on their own internal set points but the temperature in the buffer tank determines when the Tekmar calls each one on. 
Given that this system is nearly 100% low temp radiant floor, and can flow in excess of 50GPM when all zones are calling, it's not uncommon to see system temps as follow:

Boiler(s) operating near their set points of 175*
Tekmar Target temperature of around 135*
Actual buffer tank temperature at mid point of tank 90*
System supply header temperature of 115-120*
Boiler supply header temperature 160-165*
Mixed temperature going to the floor zones 100*
System return header temperature around 65-75* coming back from the floors.

Lot's of blending going on in that tank especially when everything is calling. Make sense?
.
We ran it both ways to see how the boilers and system responded and decided to let the temp float in the interest of fuel economy.


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## TCaldwell (Jan 25, 2015)

beautiful job!, what capacity is the central hopper? When one gets too old to chase firewood, how about a pellet head garn?


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## heaterman (Jan 25, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> This sounds like a MUCH bigger operation than that....



The primary business is agricultural commodity handling and harvesting for other farmers. The cattle he raises are sold to other farmers as bred heifers. He's not in the dairy business in the normal sense of the word. 
You really have to see the machines and his crew operate to grasp the capability of his operation.
A 100 acre field of hay is just a short day's work for about 1/4 of his crew. Cut, conditioned, chopped, hauled and piled at your place.....Thank you Sir may I have another..... BAM! 
You have a 3 million gallon manure lagoon you need hauled and spread on fields 5 miles from your place? Sure, we can get that for you this Thursday and Friday. BAM!
That's his main business and he does it exceedingly well.


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## heaterman (Jan 25, 2015)

TCaldwell said:


> beautiful job!, what capacity is the central hopper? When one gets too old to chase firewood, how about a pellet head garn?



Using a figure of 42 pounds per cubic foot I spec'd the bin size to hold about 13 tons usable capacity. It's 9' tall, 9' wide and 10' long. The sides all taper in at 45* angle, starting about 4' up from the floor, to a center "trough" about 16" x 6' long where the pick up heads are bolted to the floor.

Tom I'm sure if anyone could engineer a pellet head for a Garn it would be you.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 25, 2015)

heaterman said:


> The primary business is agricultural commodity handling and harvesting for other farmers. The cattle he raises are sold to other farmers as bred heifers. He's not in the dairy business in the normal sense of the word.
> You really have to see the machines and his crew operate to grasp the capability of his operation.
> A 100 acre field of hay is just a short day's work for about 1/4 of his crew. Cut, conditioned, chopped, hauled and piled at your place.....Thank you Sir may I have another..... BAM!
> You have a 3 million gallon manure lagoon you need hauled and spread on fields 5 miles from your place? Sure, we can get that for you this Thursday and Friday. BAM!
> That's his main business and he does it exceedingly well.


Ahh, OK, that makes a lot more sense. 
Yeah I know what you mean about having to see it to grasp it. We live in the same neighborhood as what is (or was?) the largest dairy farm in Ohio, milking ~3000 or so. Like you said earlier, milking 3000 means that they have many more head of cattle at any given time that are being raised to maturity to replace the current milking herd. The type (and size) of equipment you have pics of above rumble by here at all hours of the day at times. Having grown up on a farm I can attest to the fact first hand that it is truly amazing to see 300 acres of corn or hay harvested in hours when that size of field would have taken us days to bring in just 20- 30 years ago. Things...they are a changin...as the smaller farms sell out for the lack of being able to compete with these giants they are bought up by said giants and custom farming operations such as the one you guys did the install for are starting to pop up all over. One custom farming operation here locally works all over the state and even neighboring states.

You're install there reeks of some mighty fine workmanship BTW!


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## heaterman (Jan 25, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> Ahh, OK, that makes a lot more sense.
> Yeah I know what you mean about having to see it to grasp it. We live in the same neighborhood as what is (or was?) the largest dairy farm in Ohio, milking ~3000 or so. Like you said earlier, milking 3000 means that they have many more head of cattle at any given time that are being raised to maturity to replace the current milking herd. The type (and size) of equipment you have pics of above rumble by here at all hours of the day at times. Having grown up on a farm I can attest to the fact first hand that it is truly amazing to see 300 acres of corn or hay harvested in hours when that size of field would have taken us days to bring in just 20- 30 years ago. Things...they are a changin...as the smaller farms sell out for the lack of being able to compete with these giants they are bought up by said giants and custom farming operations such as the one you guys did the install for are starting to pop up all over. One custom farming operation here locally works all over the state and even neighboring states.
> 
> You're install there reeks of some mighty fine workmanship BTW!



Thank you kindly. 

I too remember working on the farms of my uncles when I was a teenager, standing on a hay wagon stacking bales behind his old Oliver 770, then driving them back to the barn, unloading and stacking again in the hay mow. (it was always like 120* up there)
A 40 of hay took 2-3 days......  A 40 takes these guys about an hour to chop, condition and merge in the morning, then if it's dry in the afternoon a pair of their 800HP Klaas choppers and about 10 trucks descend on the field and the whole thing is bare in maybe 30 minutes. Amazing


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## TCaldwell (Jan 25, 2015)

So what they spent on heat was probably peanuts in the scheme of things


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## heaterman (Jan 25, 2015)

TCaldwell said:


> So what they spent on heat was probably peanuts in the scheme of things




I could put it this way...........There are 20 tractors in his inventory that cost 2-1/2 times what our heating work did. Then there's the 15 trucks, assorted tillage equipment, 4 Klass Jaguar 970 harvesters, 3 tractors that have tracks instead of tires and 500+hp. etc etc etc.

That being said, when he contacted us last spring about his project he wanted to see numbers for total cost (purchase and operation) for wood, which was what they were using for the existing building at that time, LP gas, Biomass/chips, and pellets. 
The major factors considered were cost of fuel, labor input required, long term costs and reliability. When we stacked all 4 of those factors up for each fuel choice it was pretty easy to see which fuel had the most potential for savings. 

At current LP prices his annual savings will be about $6,000 which to me would be a toss up given higher installed cost for the Windhagers. As anyone who burned LP gas last winter learned though, that $6,000 could turn into $12-$15 K given the weather and market conditions. 
Given the turmoil in the crude oil markets right now, who the heck knows what will be happening with prices next year.........
Pellets being a locally produced fuel was a factor also.


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## JP11 (Jan 25, 2015)

I bet since he will be a VERY steady buyer of bulk pellets.. He should get a pretty good price.  Just a pic of your setup would be great advertising for EVERYONE in the supply chain of pellet boilers for going with local companies, and LOCAL fuel.

JP


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## sloeffle (Jan 25, 2015)

Impressive work heaterman.



heaterman said:


> I could put it this way...........There are 20 tractors in his inventory that cost 2-1/2 times what our heating work did. Then there's the 15 trucks, assorted tillage equipment, 4 Klass Jaguar 970 harvesters, 3 tractors that have tracks instead of tires and 500+hp



I don't think I would be able to sleep at night thinking about the payments on all of that machinery. But as my dad says, if you jump off of the cliff, you might as well jump off of the big one.


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## heaterman (Jan 27, 2015)

sloeffle said:


> Impressive work heaterman.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I would be able to sleep at night thinking about the payments on all of that machinery. But as my dad says, if you jump off of the cliff, you might as well jump off of the big one.




Thank You kindly. When my boys and I walked into that nice white room we all felt like we were looking at a blank canvas.


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## heaterman (Feb 3, 2015)

Some facts and figures.

From start up, December 31 through January 31 at 7PM, the system used 7.61 Tons of pellets.
Cost per Ton delivered was $172 so total fuel cost to heat 23,000 sq ft $1,308.00
Using DOE data of 16.5MMbtu per ton x boiler efficiency of 85% nets out to a bit under 107 MMbtu for the period of 32 days or roughly 3,330,000 btu / day......138,980 / hour.

Equivalent cost at local LP Gas price of $1.85/gallon
107MMbtu / 86,500 btu per gallon (net) = 1,237 gallon at a cost of $2,288
So just a hair under $1,000 less for pellets during the month of January.

When I figured the installed cost of and LP vs pellet system for him the difference was a wee bit over $28,000 additional.
I advised the owner that all other things being equal it would take him 5-6 years to pay back the difference.
The huge assumption there is LP prices remaining stable at <$2.00 per gallon. He was acutely aware of what happened during the brutal cold of last winter when LP prices went to $3.50+ because that's what his house runs on. He saw his YoY cost for gas nearly double from 2013 to 2014 and did not like to contemplate that happening in his work shop.

Last year heating about 8,000 sq ft he used a little over 2 semi loads of cord wood + the big CB would not produce enough heat to keep the shop at 60* buring wide open. Using wood to heat the whole building he'd would be looking at 5-6 loads at a cost of $4,000 - $4,500 to heat the whole 23,000 sq ft. Using his present time logs as a guide, the owner figured that would equal an average of 17 man hours per week labor for one of his guys at $15/hour. That adds about $13,000 annually to the cost of burning wood + maintenance on saws, fuel, chains, etc etc. Call it close to $14,000 using cord wood as the heat source.
In addition to that, he would have had to purchase at least one more OWB or a decent sized gasifier of some kind to crank out the required btu's.
That being said, If he would have gone to a gasification system with storage the fuel quantity would have been maybe 3-4 instead of 5-6 so labor costs would have been lower too.
In the end the labor costs with wood were the deciding factor for him.

In short for his particular case, pellets made the most sense.


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## maple1 (Feb 3, 2015)

I can't believe how cheap you guys can get pellets there - which would also make me cautious of a price increase on that side too.

Very nice setup & work!


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## Karl_northwind (Feb 4, 2015)

heaterman said:


> Some facts and figures.
> 
> From start up, December 31 through January 31 at 7PM, the system used 7.61 Tons of pellets.
> Cost per Ton delivered was $172 so total fuel cost to heat 23,000 sq ft $1,308.00
> ...



I like to discuss the danger and liability aspect of having employees doing that sort of work with commercial potential clients.  we had a client heating a large greenhouse area with a big 'ol CB or similar.  An employee had a pile of logs shift and broke his leg in a bunch of places.  That shifts the ROI a whole lot in the negative direction.  Lose an employee for 6 months, and the bills on top of it, I am steering clients much more towards automatically fueled appliances.  or at least trying to have them buy finished wood, not process by their employees.   

karl


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## JP11 (Feb 4, 2015)

I bet insurance on an employee running a chainsaw is super high.  That is, if the insurance company knows about it.  Back when I was young.. the construction company I worked for always made sure as FEW people as possible did any 'demolition' work.  The workers comp rates were something like 4X what our pay rate was.

JP


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## sloeffle (Feb 4, 2015)

@heaterman 

Did you put any numbers together for a geothermal system ? Or would the install cost be to prohibitive for system to heat a barn that size.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 4, 2015)

JP11 said:


> I bet insurance on an employee running a chainsaw is super high.  That is, if the insurance company knows about it.  Back when I was young.. the construction company I worked for always made sure as FEW people as possible did any 'demolition' work.  The workers comp rates were something like 4X what our pay rate was.
> 
> JP


Runnin a chain saw is not much different then farm work in general...safety wise. Just another day...


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## heaterman (Feb 4, 2015)

We are lucky to be where we are when it comes to pellets. There are 3 mills within 70 miles and a 4th if you go out to 100. Makes for good competition.
I should clarify what I mean by delivered.......The pellets come in large agricultural type bags weighing between 1500 to 2500 pounds.
The guys in his shop rigged up a hopper to dump the bags in and used a commercial sized leaf blower to move them into the bin.
It's not like the local fuel oil/pellet dealer pulls up in his $300,000 pellet delivery truck and blows them in for you, there's some labor involved.

Basically took 4 hours to blow 10 tons into the bin with the set up they made


sloeffle said:


> @heaterman
> 
> Did you put any numbers together for a geothermal system ? Or would the install cost be to prohibitive for system to heat a barn that size.



Yes we looked at that but the installed cost was far far past any realistic pay back. The other factor was at design temps the system demands 160* water and a geo can't do that. In fact.........here's a dirty little secret about water to water geo driving radiant floor systems....Once the system gets to the point where temperature requirements exceed 100* The COP starts to degrade rapidly. There are units on the market or being introduced that will supposedly generate 140* output but if you dig into the performance specs the COP is well below 3 and even 2 in some cases. When efficiencies get that low the installed cost of a GSHP system get pushed way down the road.
So for a number of reasons it wasn't a viable option on this job.


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## Karl_northwind (Feb 5, 2015)

My general response: Nothing makes heat like burnin' stuff.


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## heaterman (Apr 28, 2015)

Update on this system:

    As of today the total pellet use is 21.56 Tons as measured by the boiler controls on each boiler. This appears to be a little on the pessimistic side as actual use determined by tons actually put in the bin is closer to 20T even. The amount on each boiler is a calculated measurement, not an actual weighed amount.
   So using the 21.56 T on the display, the system consumed 368 # per day since startup. Pellet cost averaged $175/Ton over the course of the winter so the heating cost for the facility (20,000+ sq. ft. with 18' ceilings) was approximately $31.50 / day.
The owner is pleased. I'm pleased. Especially given the brutal weather we had through February when daily temps for the entire month averaged 14* below long term average. At no time during that stretch were the boilers not able to keep up with demand.
In fact even during the period when we had night after night of -20* or less, we rarely found all 3 boilers running at more than a steady 60-70% output.
Given the calculated load of the building, that leads me to believe these are rated pretty conservatively.
   Rated output is 205k btu per boiler and the heating load at those outdoor temps figured out to almost 700,000 btu with normal activity going on in the shop.

We staged the boilers using a Tekmar 274 boiler control and the run times are within 50 hours of each other on each boiler.
Measured efficiency ran in the 84-87% range without fail and CO in the flue gas was consistently in the 80-100PPM range whenever we hooked up the flue gas analyzer throughout the winter. We have not seen any decrease in efficiency as the boilers approach cleaning time.

Boiler 1 has 908 hours, Boiler 2 has 886 and Boiler 3 has 936. The control flips the first one on every 50 hours. They all averaged 1 start per every 1.3 hours which is not bad as far as run time goes.
We have not had to clean the boilers in any way yet but the on board display says they are all getting close.....under 100 hours to cleaning on each of them. Given that startup was in December, we can plan on cleaning them once during a full heating season.

I think it's pretty impressive to heat a building this size and used in the way this one is on about $3,500 worth of fuel. Especially since the heating system requires virtually no user interaction other than filling the 13 Ton bin a couple times a year.
Equivalent heat using LP, even as cheap as it is here right now would have been in the range of $7-8,000.

Did I say I was impressed?.......


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