# Heat Output: Real world results....Max Caddy vs Vapor Fire 100



## JRHAWK9 (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm looking at adding an add-on furnace to my existing LP - forced air system.  I know ON PAPER the Max Caddy should put out more heat than the VF100, but what are the real world results?  The VF100 has more consistent heat output over the duration of the burn, so the highs are not quite as high but the lows are not as low either.  I'm trying to weight the efficiency vs output thing.  I want it to be as efficient as possible, but I also want/need a lot of heat output due to the type of house (log cabin).

thanks!
Paul


----------



## lampmfg (Feb 26, 2014)

I doubt many if any people own or have used both furnaces, especially with the same variables.  However, the Kuuma Vapor-Fire is the cleanest burning indoor wood furnace on the market.  With nearly 100% combustion efficiency it is nearly impossible to extract any more heat out of a piece of wood. 

No one will know for sure until the EPA testing is mandated and the results are made public like you can currently see with wood stoves.  This will probably take awhile, but until then a copy of our actual tests is located directly on the homepage of our website for everyone to see and has been for a few years.  

If you want a furnace that is easy to use we received this message to our Facebook page yesterday.


*Lamppa Manufacturing Incorporated (Kuuma Furnaces & Sauna Stoves)*

How's everything been working with all this bad weather??

*Cari Compton*

I was just telling my husband how glad I am we got this stove. We love it. Its amazing! I had a baby in December and this stove is been so easy compared to what we had before. We are staying warm in the coldest weather we have had in a long time. Thank you for asking and I'm happy to give two thumbs up.


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Feb 26, 2014)

thanks.  I am actually leaning towards your stove but I want to do my homework before committing to anything.    These BTU output ratings can be skewed from some manufactures it seems like.  Kind of like looking at output wattage ratings of audio amplifiers...lol  

I talked to a local installer (Daizy Sweeps) last night and told him a bit about you guys.  He took down some of your info and my info and told me he was going to look into it and also call Daryl.  He then said he would be in contact with me.  Hopefully you will be receiving a call from them.


----------



## Jason762 (Feb 26, 2014)

Lampmfg,
How will the VF100 perform in a 3500 sq ft 2 story colonial in New England?  The house was built in the mid 80's so the insulation and windows are decent.  The furnace would be added on to an existing forced hot air oil burner with several zones controlled by electronic dampers.


----------



## lampmfg (Feb 26, 2014)

Jason762 said:


> Lampmfg,
> How will the VF100 perform in a 3500 sq ft 2 story colonial in New England?  The house was built in the mid 80's so the insulation and windows are decent.  The furnace would be added on to an existing forced hot air oil burner with several zones controlled by electronic dampers.



I don't think there would be any problems with that set-up and they should run well together if installed correctly.  However, I recommend giving my dad a call at the shop 800-358-2049 to go over your logistics.  He's much better over the phone


----------



## STIHLY DAN (Feb 26, 2014)

JRHAWK9 said:


> I'm looking at adding an add-on furnace to my existing LP - forced air system.  I know ON PAPER the Max Caddy should put out more heat than the VF100, but what are the real world results?  The VF100 has more consistent heat output over the duration of the burn, so the highs are not quite as high but the lows are not as low either.  I'm trying to weight the efficiency vs output thing.  I want it to be as efficient as possible, but I also want/need a lot of heat output due to the type of house (log cabin).
> 
> thanks!
> Paul



You can't go wrong with either, they are both VERY good units. I have the Kuuma, and if you want the heat output they can crank.The Kuuma has adjustable fire temps, supply temps, and auto change fan speeds. If your house drops below set point it will kick the fan on hi to catch up then low to keep an even heat with out cooking you. Easiest unit to operate out there. Load and go, its that easy.


----------



## STIHLY DAN (Feb 26, 2014)

Jason762 said:


> Lampmfg,
> How will the VF100 perform in a 3500 sq ft 2 story colonial in New England?  The house was built in the mid 80's so the insulation and windows are decent.  The furnace would be added on to an existing forced hot air oil burner with several zones controlled by electronic dampers.



Yes it will heat that. You WILL have to make sure the damper system works the way it's needed for a wood furnace. They would have to be normally open and close when another calls for heat. A bypass if there isn't already one there would be a great idea.


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Feb 27, 2014)

thanks guys.  I'm definitely leaning towards the VF100.  The trick is trying to find a local installer willing ti install something they don't sell.  I'm encouraging the ones I am in discussions with to call Daryl and discuss things with him.


----------



## STIHLY DAN (Feb 27, 2014)

JRHAWK9 said:


> thanks guys.  I'm definitely leaning towards the VF100.  The trick is trying to find a local installer willing ti install something they don't sell.  I'm encouraging the ones I am in discussions with to call Daryl and discuss things with him.



Any HVAC place should have no issues installing ductwork to it.


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Feb 27, 2014)

one would think, but I've heard that a lot of HVAC companies will not touch solid fuel heat sources.  I also need a whole new flue installed seeing I don't have a chimney at that end of the house which extends down to the basement.  I'm thinking I may find somebody to install the chimney/flue and then I can do the basic install and then I can find someone to do the ductwork.  I just know I want the flue done right so I don't have issues with the insurance.  I've probably got close to 30' of flue which needs to be installed.  :-(


----------



## STIHLY DAN (Feb 27, 2014)

JRHAWK9 said:


> one would think, but I've heard that a lot of HVAC companies will not touch solid fuel heat sources.  I also need a whole new flue installed seeing I don't have a chimney at that end of the house which extends down to the basement.  I'm thinking I may find somebody to install the chimney/flue and then I can do the basic install and then I can find someone to do the ductwork.  I just know I want the flue done right so I don't have issues with the insurance.  I've probably got close to 30' of flue which needs to be installed.  :-(



Metelbestos chimneys are very easy to install. Twist lock then clamp, Screw in support every 8 ft.  Up thru the inside of the house, more difficult.


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Feb 28, 2014)

STIHLY DAN said:


> Metelbestos chimneys are very easy to install. Twist lock then clamp, Screw in support every 8 ft.  Up thru the inside of the house, more difficult.



Funny you mention that.  I could go outside and I can possibly go inside.  The one installer who came and looked at it mentioned he is slightly concerned about not having enough draft when starting a fire due to the cold flue if going outside and in the ideal situation the flue should be inside to keep it warmer.  Obviously inside is more work, as we would have to go through two floors and the roof.  Then theirs boxing it in and seeing it's a log cabin with loft their are no closets to run it in which would not have it running right through the middle of a living space somewhere.  The only option, if we want to run it inside, would be to run it on the inside of an outside wall and then box it in...making the box visible on both the first floor and in the loft.

What are your opinions on getting enough draft with an outside flue to properly "run" a VP100?  After all, the flue is essentially the driving force behind any wood stove/furnace and I don't want to screw myself by not doing it correctly the first time.


----------



## maple1 (Feb 28, 2014)

Just how high of a chimney are we talking here?

And would it HAVE to be boxed in? Some people like the look of shiny stainless steel.


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Feb 28, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Just how high of a chimney are we talking here?
> 
> And would it HAVE to be boxed in? Some people like the look of shiny stainless steel.



At least 30'.....

I know, as I am one of those people.....my GF, not so much!    Although, according to code, if it's ran inside the house it HAS to be boxed in.  Outside it doesn't.

Although running it outside with no chase will increase the chance of not having proper draft.


----------



## maple1 (Feb 28, 2014)

30' is very tall - there should be enough draft there to run anything with.

What is the draft spec of the furnace? I have a 7" x 30' stainless chimney (internal), and it easily draws 0.1" of draft when burning, with no effort at sealing any smoke pipe joints. It will go way more with any wind at all blowing - so I have a baro damper to keep it steady at 0.1". On a cold start, I just put a ball of newspaper on top of my load & light that first - I have pretty well instant draft doing that.


----------



## JRHAWK9 (Feb 28, 2014)

maple1 said:


> 30' is very tall - there should be enough draft there to run anything with.
> 
> What is the draft spec of the furnace? I have a 7" x 30' stainless chimney (internal), and it easily draws 0.1" of draft when burning, with no effort at sealing any smoke pipe joints. It will go way more with any wind at all blowing - so I have a baro damper to keep it steady at 0.1". On a cold start, I just put a ball of newspaper on top of my load & light that first - I have pretty well instant draft doing that.






IIRC, it states in the manual 0.04" - 0.06" W.C. and it has a baro damper to keep it at that.  STIHLY DAN may correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that's what I remembered reading.

Your 30' inside should pull quite a bit, I wonder what it would be outside with no chase though.


----------



## Jason762 (Feb 28, 2014)

STIHLY DAN said:


> Yes it will heat that. You WILL have to make sure the damper system works the way it's needed for a wood furnace. They would have to be normally open and close when another calls for heat. A bypass if there isn't already one there would be a great idea.


 Please explain to me how the bypass works.  I apologize for my lack of knowledge of this stuff.


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 28, 2014)

maple1, as an aside, what did you use to measure draft?


----------



## maple1 (Feb 28, 2014)

Dwyer Mark II Model 25.

I think there's a pic of it in my install thread - it's permanently mounted.


----------



## maple1 (Feb 28, 2014)

JRHAWK9 said:


> IIRC, it states in the manual 0.04" - 0.06" W.C. and it has a baro damper to keep it at that.  STIHLY DAN may correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that's what I remembered reading.
> 
> Your 30' inside should pull quite a bit, I wonder what it would be outside with no chase though.


 
I would have no hesitation in using that setup. One good ball of newspaper on a cold start should get the air rushing up that chimney in no time - and beside that, someone correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there always a fire going (even if a small one) in the VF? IOW, the chimney should stay relatively warm on the inside. Plus there's the combustion fan too.


----------



## STIHLY DAN (Feb 28, 2014)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Funny you mention that.  I could go outside and I can possibly go inside.  The one installer who came and looked at it mentioned he is slightly concerned about not having enough draft when starting a fire due to the cold flue if going outside and in the ideal situation the flue should be inside to keep it warmer.  Obviously inside is more work, as we would have to go through two floors and the roof.  Then theirs boxing it in and seeing it's a log cabin with loft their are no closets to run it in which would not have it running right through the middle of a living space somewhere.  The only option, if we want to run it inside, would be to run it on the inside of an outside wall and then box it in...making the box visible on both the first floor and in the loft.
> 
> What are your opinions on getting enough draft with an outside flue to properly "run" a VP100?  After all, the flue is essentially the driving force behind any wood stove/furnace and I don't want to screw myself by not doing it correctly the first time.



I have a 6" 27" ft metalbestos running up the north west ouside of the house. Draft actually would be to much without the baro.  Kuuma calls -.06 and the baro is working a lot. You could install this yourself in a couple hours. I would put it outside, it would match a log home perfect.


----------



## STIHLY DAN (Feb 28, 2014)

Jason762 said:


> Please explain to me how the bypass works.  I apologize for my lack of knowledge of this stuff.



A bypass is a duct run from your supply to your return duct, controlled by either a powered damper or a weighted damper. If the static pressure raises do to not enough air being able to go through the ducts because there closed. The damper will open as much as needed running the air back into the return of the unit.


----------



## Jason762 (Mar 2, 2014)

STIHLY DAN said:


> A bypass is a duct run from your supply to your return duct, controlled by either a powered damper or a weighted damper. If the static pressure raises do to not enough air being able to go through the ducts because there closed. The damper will open as much as needed running the air back into the return of the unit.


Would it just be better to have all dampers open all the time and/or remove the dampers, essentially removing the "zones" so the heated air from the wood furnace would always have a place to go?


----------



## STIHLY DAN (Mar 2, 2014)

IMHO that would be the best way to do it.


----------



## Jason762 (Mar 3, 2014)

Here's another question.  If I decide to replace the existing setup with a combination wood/oil furnace, how should I tie in the duct work in regards to the A coil for the central A/C?  I understand that A coils don't like to be above the heated air of a solid fuel furnace, so what are my other choices?


----------



## brenndatomu (Mar 3, 2014)

Jason, Yukon claims that plenty of their customers install the A coil above their wood/oil furnaces all the time with no problems as long as you replace the factory plastic drip pan with a custom made metal one. I didn't wanna take a chance./to cheap to pay for custom drip pan...I made my supply plenum so that my A coil can be slid out (very carefully) during the heating season. I just hang it from the ceiling behind the furnace. Makes cleaning the coil a breeze too! 
​


----------



## laynes69 (Mar 3, 2014)

Go to PSG's website and download a manual for the Max Caddy. I believe it addresses this scenario. I would agree there's a loss of efficiency with an all in one unit, but on the Caddy line of furnaces, the oil burner fires into a seperate chamber and not into the firebox. Couldn't tell you how one or the other affects efficiency. Doing a parallel install of a woodfurnace gives maximum efficiency from both furnaces.


----------

