# EV Myths



## semipro (Sep 10, 2019)

_Moved from Tesla thread -BG_
*
‘DANGEROUS IN THE SNOW’ AND ‘NO FUN’; FORD COMMITS TO EDUCATION AS SURVEY REVEALS MYTHS AROUND ELECTRIC VEHICLES*

Seems somehow relevant:
https://media.ford.com/content/ford...y-reveals-myths-around-electric-vehicles.html
Apparently, 4 out of 10 Americans believe that EVs require gasoline/diesel to function.


----------



## SpaceBus (Sep 10, 2019)

semipro said:


> *‘DANGEROUS IN THE SNOW’ AND ‘NO FUN’; FORD COMMITS TO EDUCATION AS SURVEY REVEALS MYTHS AROUND ELECTRIC VEHICLES*
> 
> Seems somehow relevant:
> https://media.ford.com/content/ford...y-reveals-myths-around-electric-vehicles.html
> Apparently, 4 out of 10 Americans believe that EVs require gasoline/diesel to function.



Several people I have spoken to over 45 didn't know their phone was accessing the internet. One person specifically didn't know that Facebook was on the internet. I asked her how she uses the internet in the new house because I didn't see a router or modem or any means to access. She said she didn't use the internet, so I asked how she got on Facebook and posted photos.... I absolutely find it very believable that folks don't know much of anything about cars, as they don't know much about anything. I'm ranting now, so I'll just end it here.


----------



## Ashful (Sep 10, 2019)

semipro said:


> *‘DANGEROUS IN THE SNOW’ AND ‘NO FUN’; FORD COMMITS TO EDUCATION AS SURVEY REVEALS MYTHS AROUND ELECTRIC VEHICLES*
> 
> Seems somehow relevant:
> https://media.ford.com/content/ford...y-reveals-myths-around-electric-vehicles.html
> Apparently, 4 out of 10 Americans believe that EVs require gasoline/diesel to function.



Wow.  Today’s EV will outperform an ICE in almost every regard, except horsepower and range, at a given price point.  The flexibility to put the weight where it favors driving dynamics, rather than where mechanical drivetrain constraints dictate it must be, likely provides the opportunity for enormous advantages in bad weather traction and performance.


----------



## SpaceBus (Sep 10, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Wow.  Today’s EV will outperform an ICE in almost every regard, except horsepower and range, at a given price point.  The flexibility to put the weight where it favors driving dynamics, rather than where mechanical drivetrain constraints dictate it must be, likely provides the opportunity for enormous advantages in bad weather traction and performance.


The potential of hub mounted motors for off road and motorsport use are amazing. Once people can become used to a different form factor for vehicles in general at least. Right now everyone gets too upset that the Model 3 has no grille. It doesn't have to look like a normal sedan at all, there's no limitations in the design, aside from those dictated by law of course. Imagine a tractor without a giant long hood obscuring your view, no differential right under your ass, and silent operation. I'm not too fond of the sound of my tractor screaming away at 2000 RPM to be honest, but I do need that speed for some stuff. I feel like the applications are endless, once electron storage improves. I'm already liking the electric turbos filtering down to automakers from F1. That's just a stopgap for better storage.


----------



## Ashful (Sep 10, 2019)

So true!  Although I suspect tractors like yours and mine will be late on the transition schedule, due to one primary factor... lifetime.  We may keep cars 10 years, on average, but most of us will keep a tractor 2 - 4 times that long.  I don’t want to be dealing with battery obsolescence issue for what I still consider a once-in-a-lifetime purchase.

Of course, the big boys with large-scale farming will transition at least a decade before those of us with 20 - 60 HP landowner-grade CUT’s.


----------



## SpaceBus (Sep 10, 2019)

Ashful said:


> So true!  Although tractors like yours and mine will be late on the transition schedule, due to one primary factor... lifetime.  We may keep cars 10 years, on average, but most of us will keep a tractor 2 - 4 times that long.  I don’t want to be dealing with battery obsolescence issue for what I still consider a once-in-a-lifetime purchase.
> 
> Of course, the big boys with large-scale farming will transition at least a decade before those of us with 20 - 60 HP landowner-grade CUT’s.



You are absolutely right. Once battery tech becomes cheaper it would be fun to convert an old beat tractor.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Sep 10, 2019)

While were at it, end subsidies for Corn and Ethanol fuel. Even though Ethanol is considered renewable. Cheap corn syrup sweetener also wrecking the american diet making fatty animal products artificially cheaper than healthy alternatives. Resulting or at least partly responsible for the obesity epidemic. Creating another multibillion $ problem. Subsidies seldom improve on normal market forces and usually end up making things worse.
https://grist.org/food/our-crazy-farm-subsidies-explained/


----------



## Ashful (Sep 10, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Subsidies seldom improve on normal market forces and usually end up making things worse.


It’s human nature, too easy to play fast and loose with Other People’s Money (OPM).  Subsidies can be a great tool, when change is needed, and the leap from here to there is too far for the free market.  But opportunities for corruption, and the massive overhead created by attempts to quell that corruption, make for a very inefficient use of our dollars.

I like that all or most of those being aimed at EV’s are temporary with defined expiration dates, but I’m believing what begreen posted there, I have not confirmed it myself.  I do know the big one in the USA, the EV tax credit, applies to the first 200,000 EV’s sold by a given company, which seems an enormous number to someone who’s used to driving vehicles produced at a rate of less than 3000 per year.  I know that EV’s are selling as well as they are in Europe, because they’re not faced with the staggering taxes applied to ICE’s, imposed by most European nations.  But that is also a temporary situation, those gub’ments want their money from Musk, too.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Sep 10, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> You are absolutely right. Once battery tech becomes cheaper it would be fun to convert an old beat tractor.


Age has converted me into what most of my fellow americans have been for awhile (Not those on Hearth though).I just want to get on the thing, turn the key and get results.No longer change oil and work on the vehicle fleet anymore,have a good mechanic for that.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Sep 10, 2019)

Ashful said:


> It’s human nature, too easy to play fast and loose with Other People’s Money (OPM).  Subsidies can be a great tool, when change is needed, and the leap from here to there is too far for the free market.  But opportunities for corruption, and the massive overhead created by attempts to quell that corruption, make for a very inefficient use of our dollars.
> 
> .


Yes that s where it all goes wrong ,like the Jonestown flood tax i suppose.


----------



## begreen (Sep 10, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> The potential of hub mounted motors for off road and motorsport use are amazing. Once people can become used to a different form factor for vehicles in general at least. Right now everyone gets too upset that the Model 3 has no grille. It doesn't have to look like a normal sedan at all, there's no limitations in the design, aside from those dictated by law of course. Imagine a tractor without a giant long hood obscuring your view, no differential right under your ass, and silent operation. I'm not too fond of the sound of my tractor screaming away at 2000 RPM to be honest, but I do need that speed for some stuff. I feel like the applications are endless, once electron storage improves. I'm already liking the electric turbos filtering down to automakers from F1. That's just a stopgap for better storage.


Volkswagen is experimenting with this idea on their new iD platform. They've made a prototype dune buggy reminiscent of the old VW Beetle buggies.


----------



## SpaceBus (Sep 10, 2019)

begreen said:


> Volkswagen is experimenting with this idea on their new iD platform. They've made a prototype dune buggy reminiscent of the old VW Beetle buggies.



Oftentimes long travel suspension has issues with driveline binding, axles, etc. This does away with half of the articulation issues. You have complete suspension freedom! I love it.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Sep 12, 2019)

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4155182-teslas-sales-collapse-europe-63-percent-quarter


----------



## begreen (Sep 16, 2019)

Ok, now this looks like it could be some fun.








						Audi AI:Trail concept splices trail-ready with autonomous-ready
					

Off-road capability and autonomous-driving readiness might not be mutually exclusive. The Audi AI:Trail concept from Frankfurt shows how.




					www.greencarreports.com


----------



## Ashful (Sep 16, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> https://seekingalpha.com/article/4155182-teslas-sales-collapse-europe-63-percent-quarter



I assume some of the tax waivers must have expired? That was previously reported as a big part of their prior success, avoiding much of the taxes applied to their rival ICE imports.


----------



## Ashful (Sep 16, 2019)

Where’s @woodgeek been? I need him to tell me how to get Uncle Sam (or Willie Penn) to kick in on the cost of a new Volvo plug-in hybrid.


----------



## begreen (Sep 16, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Where’s @woodgeek been? I need him to tell me how to get Uncle Sam (or Willie Penn) to kick in on the cost of a new Volvo plug-in hybrid.


Looks like there's a $1500 rebate.








						Alternative Fuel Vehicles
					






					www.dep.pa.gov


----------



## semipro (Sep 17, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Where’s @woodgeek been? I need him to tell me how to get Uncle Sam (or Willie Penn) to kick in on the cost of a new Volvo plug-in hybrid.


Last seen here Sept 8...


----------



## woodgeek (Sep 19, 2019)

Howdy Ashful ....  the rebates change all the time, google is your friend.


----------



## woodgeek (Sep 21, 2019)

Randy, did I hear that The Great Cheeto was rolling back Ethanol subsidies?

** Insert broken clock analogy here **


----------



## begreen (Sep 21, 2019)

woodgeek said:


> Randy, did I hear that The Great Cheeto was rolling back Ethanol subsidies?
> 
> ** Insert broken clock analogy here **


A couple things, the standard was raised from E10 to E15 in June, but then recently lots of small refineries got a pass. 








						Trump's EPA grants 31 small refinery waivers from biofuel laws, angering corn lobby
					

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has granted 31 small refinery biofuel waivers for 2018 on Friday, infuriating the ethanol and corn producers who blamed the Trump administration for bailing out the oil industry when U.S. farmers were suffering due to trade...




					www.reuters.com


----------



## billb3 (Oct 14, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> While were at it, end subsidies for Corn and Ethanol fuel. Even though Ethanol is considered renewable. Cheap corn syrup sweetener also wrecking the american diet making fatty animal products artificially cheaper than healthy alternatives. Resulting or at least partly responsible for the obesity epidemic. Creating another multibillion $ problem. Subsidies seldom improve on normal market forces and usually end up making things worse.
> https://grist.org/food/our-crazy-farm-subsidies-explained/



The decision to subsidize either methanol or ethanol was made when the price of natural gas was  horribly high. 
The subsidies are supposed to help minimize the price swings that most commodities experience. Guarantees the too-big-to-fail farmers don't.


----------

