# And yet another Englander not putting out heat



## gordo9742000 (Dec 12, 2009)

Hello to everyone here. Been lurking around here for a while. This site is a wealth of information and knowledge. I have an Englander 25-pdv with a build date of 7-08. I was wondering what everyone else that had the same stove was putting out for heat out of the front blower. I have a thermometer hanging about 6 inches in front of the stove and I am only reading 105-108 degrees. Also I am going through a full hopper of pellets in approximately 11 -12 hours. I have tried adjusting the settings on the three lower buttons and tried adjusting the slide plate open and closed. I tried calling tech support and the person I talked to didn't seem to believe me. If I play with the settings I can get it up to about 115 but then my burn pot fills with ash and unburned pellets and the glass turns black. It is my second season with it. Didnt run it for the whole season last winter so I really coudnt tune it. Now that it is cold here I want it to put out some heat. I dump the ash twice a day and try to do a thorough vacuum at least every other. Everytime I make sure the back plate is sitting in it tabs. So far I have tried three different brands of pellets with very little difference. Its getting to the point right now that im just gonna shut it off and burn gas. Any help would be appreciated.

                                                                            Thanks Jim


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## imacman (Dec 12, 2009)

I was going to suggest that you remove the combustion blower & clean it, and also clean the ash traps & pipe, but that shouldn't be necessary since you basically have a brand new stove that's never been burned.

What heat setting are you using?   What brands of pellets?  Do you have the OAK connected?  What is your vent set-up?

The three lower buttons have no effect on the stove operation when the heat setting is 3 or more.


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 12, 2009)

Hello macman. Evan though it is a fairly new stove I did pull it apart to clean and inspect it and everything seemed fine. I have tried all heat settings. I seems a little better around 8 or 9 but just gobbles pellets. When I talked to tech support he told me that the three buttons on the bottom do have an effect on the higher settings contrary to what I have been reading here. I have three tons of potomac pellet that I have been using mostly but have also tried penningtons and another brand that I cant recall right now. Yes I do have an outside air kit hooked up. Vent is out the back of the stove up the wall 6 feet out the foundation the up another 3 feet with a cap.

                                                Thanks Jim


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## imacman (Dec 12, 2009)

gordo9742000 said:
			
		

> Hello macman. Evan though it is a fairly new stove I did pull it apart to clean and inspect it and everything seemed fine. I have tried all heat settings. I seems a little better around 8 or 9 but just gobbles pellets. When I talked to tech support he told me that the three buttons on the bottom do have an effect on the higher settings contrary to what I have been reading here. I have three tons of potomac pellet that I have been using mostly but have also tried penningtons and another brand that I cant recall right now. Yes I do have an outside air kit hooked up. Vent is out the back of the stove up the wall 6 feet out the foundation the up another 3 feet with a cap.
> 
> Thanks Jim



Let me get this straight...you have (3) 90 degrees bends in the pipe, plus 9 total vertical feet, plus approx 3-4' of total horizontal flue pipe?

Is all the pipe 3" ?


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 12, 2009)

Yes that is all correct.


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## imacman (Dec 12, 2009)

I may have an answer for your problem.  Based on what you said, the EVL for your stove is approx 22.  Anything over 15 requires that the pipe be increased to 4" at the outlet of the stove.

I think you just don't have enough draft....the comb. blower can't handle all the friction from that set-up.


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## imacman (Dec 12, 2009)

Also, if the OAK length is more than 6' total length, it has to be increased to 3".


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 12, 2009)

Just went and measured it. Total is 13 ft. I know its close but still within spec.


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## imacman (Dec 12, 2009)

gordo9742000 said:
			
		

> Just went and measured it. Total is 13 ft. I know its close but still within spec.



OK, you don't know what EVL is then.  You CAN'T just measure the length of the pipes.  EVL stands for Equivalent Vent Length.

Here's the formula's...calculate it yourself:

Every 90degree bend = 5 EVL
every 45 degree bend = 2.5 EVL
every foot of vertical pipe = .5 EVL
every foot of horizontal pipe = 1 EVL


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 12, 2009)

You also must make certain that the "horizontal pipe" actually is rising a bit from one end to the other.

On some stoves the oak has to increase yet again if the stove is below grade level.  Read the stove installation manual several times as it is easy miss stuff the first couple of times through.


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## imacman (Dec 12, 2009)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> ......On some stoves the oak has to increase yet again if the stove is below grade level......



I mentioned that in post #6.


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## littlesmokey (Dec 12, 2009)

One other point. Re-set your stove to the manufacturer's recommended settings. If after doing all this you need to reset the stove, call ESW and have them walk you through the settings. Those buttons do more than one thing. Last item is stove temp. These are not wood stoves and should not be 500-600 degrees output. They do vary in output at certain points, depending on how the room fan and vents are arranged. One of my stoves use heat tubes only and there is a concentration of heat at their outlet, but no air from sides or below the stove, except one outlet. Measuring the output temp is relatively meaningless, you need to make the burn as efficient as possible and let the stoves blowers circulate the air and heat.


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## imacman (Dec 12, 2009)

Deffy said:
			
		

> macman, good thinking but i would question one thing first. is the flame lazy or does it look normal? gordo, can you post a picture of the stoves flame and let us know what setting the stove is running at during the pictures?
> 
> for you to be getting such low output temps something had got to be wrong here. i have the pdvc and i've measured 225f with the stove set on 2 and the room air blower on 9. check the screen on your oak too. the screen is on the outside of the house right on the beginning of the pipe. i have to hit mine periodically with compressed air to clear up the little holes otherwise they get plugged with outside stuff like dust and pollen etc.
> 
> the pic of the flame should tell us a lot. if its a normal looking flame then i dunno what to say, possible theres too much combustion air and exhausting all your heat before it can be transferred to the room, but this would make your exhaust pipe abnormally hot. is it?



deffy, did you see the posts above about his EVL?  It's upward of 22, and he's got 3" pipe!  IMO, I don't care how clean the OAK is, if the exhaust can't get out, no air is coming in.


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## Dougsey (Dec 12, 2009)

Maybe try removing the last 90 and vertical rise in the vent to see if that helps?


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 12, 2009)

Will post pictures of the flame tonight when I get home from work. When I first light it off the flame looks active and about 6-7 inches tall with heat and fan set at 5-5. OAK is a 3 inch kit and is clean. Settings are set at factory 6-4-1 and the slide plate is put back to the original position. I understand that it is not a woodstove and wont reach the high temps but I beleive it should be warmer than it is. I know all stove are different but I have a friend down the street with the exact same stove in a drafty old garage. He is running a 3 inch vent kit and his output is close to 250 degrees and has to keep the window open to let heat out. My stove is getting hot but is seems that the blower isnt extracting it for some reasons. Not much hair left to pull out.

                                                                     Thanks Jim


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## MCPO (Dec 12, 2009)

I hesitate to ask such a simple question but it`s one that I have experienced.  Are you sure that your distribution blower working?
There should plenty of hot air blowing out from the front of the stove.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 12, 2009)

macman said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not quite the same macman, below grade installs add complicating factors beyond simple OAK length.
The OP can depending upon local conditions at his stack have a case where the heat is being drafted out of the stove at a higher rate than the combustion fan alone would cause resulting in substantial heat loss.  While this is a possibility it would be a fair low probability.

I'm going to wait until I see some pics and we know that the convection fan actually is running.  

A marginal convection fan (or one that isn't seeing the correct voltage due to control board issues) can also result in low heat output.   

It is also possible that the distribution air paths are blocked (partially).


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## imacman (Dec 12, 2009)

Deffy said:
			
		

> i did but hes not that much over. im sure increasing to 4" wont hurt him, just that i was wondering how it was actually performing flamewise. his setup might actually work semi ok when completely clean but add some soot into the mix after say a half ton then much less air is going through.


His EVL is AT LEAST 22 or more.....that's not much over????  It's WAY over for 3" pipe, IMO.

Yes, it MIGHT work "semi-OK", but again as you mentioned yourself......what about when it gets a little soot in all those bends & horizontal runs?


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## Scooby123 (Dec 13, 2009)

Hey Guys,

I am reading these posts and I have a similar problem with my Brand New Englander 55-SHPEP. I converted this freestanding unit to an insert, and installed per the manufacturers specs. I used my previous wood stove 6" vent stack up the chimney and I added a 3" intake line. No matter what setting I have the stove on (1-5) my room does not get hotter than 66. I have a very good flame and does increase with each burn rate, and I am going through pellets fast. Not sure if there is a factory preset problem or if I bought a lemon.....


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2009)

Scooby123 said:
			
		

> Hey Guys,
> 
> I am reading these posts and I have a similar problem with my Brand New Englander 55-SHPEP. I converted this freestanding unit to an insert, and installed per the manufacturers specs. I used my previous wood stove 6" vent stack up the chimney and I added a 3" intake line. No matter what setting I have the stove on (1-5) my room does not get hotter than 66. I have a very good flame and does increase with each burn rate, and I am going through pellets fast. Not sure if there is a factory preset problem or if I bought a lemon.....



Is the convection blower running at proper speeds ..... is the air path for the heat exchanger free of all blockages, this includes the intake for the blower.  If there is an impingement plate is it properly seated?


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## Scooby123 (Dec 13, 2009)

The blower seems to be working fine. I am getting air blowing out of the front of the unit, but it is warm (not hot) at best.I just installed the air line this week and checked for blockage. I have only used two bags of pellets in the unit and has been like this from first fire.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2009)

Scooby123 said:
			
		

> The blower seems to be working fine. I am getting air blowing out of the front of the unit, but it is warm (not hot) at best.I just installed the air line this week and checked for blockage. I have only used two bags of pellets in the unit and has been like this from first fire.



You have the stove on burn rate 1 and blower rate 5 ?  Is that what you are saying?

If so the reason why you aren't getting hot air out the front is that you are removing the heat from the exchanger at a fairly high rate.  

Try a blower rate equal to or one higher than the burn rate.   That burn rate one is also affected by the lower three buttons on the controller.   

You might want to talk to Mike Holton at England Stove Works or call ESW's technical group.  
Mike is also a member here send him a PM, stoveguy2esw is his handle.  

Sounds like a few things might be fouled up on heat setting one.


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## Scooby123 (Dec 13, 2009)

No, I always have the burn rate and blower on the same speed. I read that the three buttons on the bottom are preset, and I did try setting them different. Thanks for advice. I will call them tomorrow, I am hoping it is something easy as far as the control panel.

Thanks again


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## webbie (Dec 13, 2009)

Although this seems obvious, it bears repeating.

Always keep in mind the conservation of energy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

That is, energy cannot be created or destroyed, it must go somewhere!

So, when you look at a particular problem, consider that if pellets are burning.....in any semi-normal fashion (not horribly smoking or creating tars), then most of the energy inside them is being released. Ask yourself then - where can it go?

To my simple way of thinking, it can go one of two places - either up the stack or into the room.

Using output temperatures of air i an extremely poor way, IMHO, of judging a stove....because the output temps rely very heavily on the input temps. Also, every stove produces heat in different ways - some with radiant heat, some with less air that is warmer, and some with more air that is relatively cooler. Even 100 degree air means it may be heated up 40 degrees from the 60 degree input air at floor level behind the stove. 

Yes, improper venting can hurt a pellet stove - BUT, the RESULT of that venting still has to cause something that is still subject to the Laws of Conservation....that is, it often makes a stove not able to burn through the pellets as quickly....or makes it not burn the pellets as well (smoke, etc.)......

Again, it seems obvious, but if the pellets are being burnt and if you are not getting smoke out...then heat is being created. Where it is going is another matter (the matter of heat transfer efficiency).


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2009)

Yup, Craig, which is why I mentioned it here

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewreply/528455/

for the original poster 

and I also mentioned making certain that any impingement plates were clean and in place.  

That was in addition to looking for a blockage in the heat exchanger air path and intake.  That fan may be turning its little heart out but not moving any real amount of air.


I was told by at least one member that I was full of it when I mentioned that not all central heating systems were as efficient as they might test out to be or you think they are.  Heat loss can occur in the strangest way.  The best one I'm aware of is straight up the flue ;-) .


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2009)

While I'm at it one of the best exits for heated air in your house can be a chimney race.  I've seen it suck air out of the floors above the cellar.


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## webbie (Dec 13, 2009)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Yup, Craig, which is why I mentioned it here
> Heat loss can occur in the strangest way.  The best one I'm aware of is straight up the flue ;-) .



No joke, I think you are correct!

Don't they call this Occams Razor?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
"the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one"


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2009)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the corollary to Murphy's Law or is Murphy's the counterexample?  I must be getting old timers because I forget the technical names now, once past thingy and stuff I'm lost ;-) .  

Have a good one Craig, btw it's snowing up here.


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 13, 2009)

OK finally able to get pictures up. Hopefully I got it right.  The burning pictures are taken after an hour of burning at heat range 5 and fan at 5.
Factory 6-4-1 settings and burning potomac pellets.

Temps are as follows


Room  72 deg
Room blower 98 deg
Top front 120 deg
Top of hopper 85 deg
Left of door 356 deg
Right of door 321 deg
Exhaust pipe 93 deg
Exhaust outlet 370 deg


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## imacman (Dec 13, 2009)

Gordo,  that looks to be a pretty good to me, after an hour.  What were the other 2 brands of pellets that you burned?


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 13, 2009)

I know one of the other brands were penningtons but I cant recall the third brand.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2009)

Deffy said:
			
		

> theres the problem, 370 degree air out of your exhaust. your heat is making it outside and not being picked up by the exchanger. you sure its clean?. try lowering the burn air a bit and see what effect that has on the exhaust output temp.
> 
> your flame looks perfectly fine for those settings.
> 
> ...



Too much draft will result in the heat going up the flue, also an out of placement impingement plate which transfers heat to the heat exchanger in those stoves will allow a lot of heat to exit the stove instead of heating the exchanger.

I'd start by doing what Dougsey suggested  removing the last 90 degree bend and the outside vertical pipe along with making certain that impingement plate is properly seated, centered, and clean (including the surfaces it rests against).


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## joefraser (Dec 14, 2009)

gordo9742000 said:
			
		

> I have a thermometer hanging about 6 inches in front of the stove and I am only reading 105-108 degrees.



Not to say you don't have a heat problem but I don't think your way of measuring temperature of the room blower is too accurate.  I would think that by 6 inches your air from the blower has mixed well with the air in the space being heated.  I tried it and I get a 40 degree difference directly out of the stove to 6 inches out.  The colder your room the lower the temperature this far out even though the stove is putting out the same heat.


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## Fsappo (Dec 14, 2009)

joefraser said:
			
		

> gordo9742000 said:
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down goes Fraser, down goes Fraser, down goes Fraser...sorry.  Not much more to add except all the stoves we sell in our showroom could work with that vent set up, no OAK and have 200 (290 on the Europa) degree air blowing out the heat exchanger.  But the Englander stoves are cheaper, so it all equals out in the end.


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## MCPO (Dec 14, 2009)

Franks said:
			
		

> joefraser said:
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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2009)

Gio said:
			
		

> Franks said:
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I agree with Gio, that stove model can crank out heat.  One of the key parts of the stove however is that impingement plate.  It must be clean, seated correctly, and centered.

As for fraser, I can't speak about his readings, however on 1- at 6" in front of my stove I have no trouble reaching 125 (which is as high as my cheapo old fashioned 'mometer goes), that is the lowest burn rate I can go.  Every stove is different, if I decouple my convection blower by running it on hi, the temperature doesn't go as high but the volume of air moved  increases.


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 15, 2009)

The impingement plate is set into the two tabs in the center and is clean. It leans forward a slight bit. From what I have read this model stove does this. If this is wrong that would be a large problem. Anyone got any input on this. Should I wedge back or not?

                                                                                       Thanks Jim


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## imacman (Dec 15, 2009)

gordo9742000 said:
			
		

> The impingement plate is set into the two tabs in the center and is clean. It leans forward a slight bit. From what I have read this model stove does this. If this is wrong that would be a large problem. Anyone got any input on this. Should I wedge back or not?   Thanks Jim



Jim, this is straight out of YOUR OWNERS MANUAL:

"3. Let the bottom of the plate rest on the firebox, and then push the bottom of the plate flush
against the back wall of the firebox. At this point, the plate will lean forward (toward the front
of the stove) slightly, and will come in contact with the front of the stove above the door.

4. Finally, center the plate on the firebox, so that it will be centered above the fire when the
stove is in operation."


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 15, 2009)

I understand that it is in my owners manual. I was just wondering if I wedged it back it would make a difference.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2009)

Jim it should be SNUGGLY against the back of the fire box and also Touch the front of the stove above the door.   

Not just leaning towards.  

That impingement plate is what will actually transfer the energy from the fire to the exchanger, it is the single most important part of your stove that causes that nice heat to come out of those tubes when the convection blower does its thing.  

The part of the firebox both at the bottom and top that the plate sits against also should be clean.


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 16, 2009)

Took it to the extreme today. Since i had the day off I figured I would do an extreme clean. Moved the stove outside and with compressed air and some lengths of tubing blew out every crack and crevice of the stove. Also dismantled the exhaust and cleaned every part of it. Since it was outside i lit it off to see what kind of temps I could get out of. Output temps were lower but I think that is mainly because the outside temp was low. I moved the stove back inside and positioned it near a window where I could run the exhaust out with minimal piping. Still no difference.


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## MCPO (Dec 17, 2009)

Is it possible the combustion blower is running full tilt and sending most of the heat up the flue?
 I know if it was my stove I`d have been  talking to their tech by now.


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 17, 2009)

Already talked to tech and was told that my numbers were not accurate. I confirmed all numbers with several different thermometers and all are within 1-2 degrees of each other.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 17, 2009)

gordo9742000 said:
			
		

> Already talked to tech and was told that my numbers were not accurate. I confirmed all numbers with several different thermometers and all are within 1-2 degrees of each other.



PM Mike Holton, see what he has to say, his handle here is stoveguy2esw.   Send him a link to this thread.


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## MCPO (Dec 17, 2009)

gordo9742000 said:
			
		

> Already talked to tech and was told that my numbers were not accurate. I confirmed all numbers with several different thermometers and all are within 1-2 degrees of each other.



I`m aware of and read a lot of Englander problems  and solutions / fixes by their techs but I never realized a thermometer was used or was a part of any of them.
 What do your thermometer numbers ( accurate or not) have to do with the solution to the problem?
 Are you saying he offered no attempt to solve the problem , and that he only dissagreed with your thermometer readings?


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## MCPO (Dec 17, 2009)

Here`s a new thread with the same complaint , only with a top rated Harman .  I`m not saying the same cause but it`s worth thinking about.
BTW, I hope you aren`t saying your stove is installed in an unfinished basement .

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/48385/


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 17, 2009)

I am not saying that the thermometers are the solutions but they do let me know there is a problem and when it is fixed. I gather from what you are saying is that I dont have a problem as long as I am burning pellets completely and cleanly. Is that correct?
Also can you enlighten me as far as being in an unfinished is a bad thing. That confuses me.


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## MCPO (Dec 18, 2009)

gordo9742000 said:
			
		

> I am not saying that the thermometers are the solutions but they do let me know there is a problem and when it is fixed. I gather from what you are saying is that I dont have a problem as long as I am burning pellets completely and cleanly. Is that correct?
> Also can you enlighten me as far as being in an unfinished is a bad thing. That confuses me.


 Well, it`s not a good thing .
 The point is if you have a pellet stove in an unfinished basement the concrete walls and floors will suck up just about all the heat that stove is capable of putting out.


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## littlesmokey (Dec 18, 2009)

We tried to use a P-stove to heat an enclosed, but uninsulated foundation to a high enough level to cure concrete. At 22 °F  out side we got it to 32 °F . The basement did not go below the frost line, so we never poured until after it thawed in the Spring. That my friend is what you are trying to do, in a nut shell.


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## tjnamtiw (Dec 18, 2009)

Man, I wish this post would go away  Every time I read the title, I think you're talking about my wife.  :cheese:   I hope she never reads this..............


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## Fsappo (Dec 18, 2009)

gordo9742000 said:
			
		

> Took it to the extreme today. Since i had the day off I figured I would do an extreme clean. Moved the stove outside and with compressed air and some lengths of tubing blew out every crack and crevice of the stove. Also dismantled the exhaust and cleaned every part of it. Since it was outside i lit it off to see what kind of temps I could get out of. Output temps were lower but I think that is mainly because the outside temp was low. I moved the stove back inside and positioned it near a window where I could run the exhaust out with minimal piping. Still no difference.



Sounds like a great way to spend a day off.  Wanna bring the stove back yet?


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## MCPO (Dec 18, 2009)

If we all knew earlier that this stove was installed in his unheated basement it would not have lasted so long. We would have come to a conclusion long ago.
Concrete:
When a material absorbs energy, it heats up. The more material there is in a structure, the more energy it has to absorb to heat up. Because a concrete floor is heavy and dense, it will have to absorb a lot of heat energy to heat up. If that floor is subjected to warm temperatures during the day, it may continue to absorb heat all day long, never quite catching up to the air temperature. This will make the concrete actually feel cool during the day. 

Since the floor and walls are exposed directly to the ground the heat absorbed by the concrete gets quickly absorbed into the ground. It`s very difficult and very expensive to heat uninsulated concrete spaces.


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## gordo9742000 (Dec 18, 2009)

Never said it was an unfinished basement. Walls are finished. Floor is concrete but is 70 degrees due to radiant heat. 
Is 370 degree exhaust output normal? Because if it is I will just live with it.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 18, 2009)

normal pellet stove exhausts can reach up to 500F plus ambient temp. i should note that i can literally sit on top of my stove and have done so many times and still have it heating my house at the same time. exhaust temps can be fairly high depending on how hard you are running the unit and still produce usable heat. question is where is the heat going after it leaves the front of the stove


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## MCPO (Dec 18, 2009)

gordo9742000 said:
			
		

> Never said it was an unfinished basement. Walls are finished. Floor is concrete but is 70 degrees due to radiant heat.
> Is 370 degree exhaust output normal? Because if it is I will just live with it.



OK, basement is insulated . We can rule that out.
 I have no way of measuring exhaust temp. Hopefully someone else has done this. All I know is I can hold my hand on my Harman exhaust pipe for at least 5 seconds 2 ft from the exit with the stove set on #3 ( Medium ) .
 But that`s probably meaningless.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 18, 2009)

Scooby123 said:
			
		

> Hey Guys,
> 
> I am reading these posts and I have a similar problem with my Brand New Englander 55-SHPEP. I converted this freestanding unit to an insert, and installed per the manufacturers specs. I used my previous wood stove 6" vent stack up the chimney and I added a 3" intake line. No matter what setting I have the stove on (1-5) my room does not get hotter than 66. I have a very good flame and does increase with each burn rate, and I am going through pellets fast. Not sure if there is a factory preset problem or if I bought a lemon.....



reduce your low burn air a couple digits, in a chimney draft tends to "suck the heat out" i had to drop my LBA on y PAH unit for that reason, caution though if you drop too far you may lose the clean flame , need to find the balance , try dropping it one digit at a time give it say an hour between drops and just gradually walk it in you should see heat output rise before you start to lose the fire


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