# do i have to be concerned - moisture reading



## olliek (Sep 1, 2012)

so I have six to seven cords that I wanted to burn this winter. went out today and split a couple of logs from different stacks and used my $10 moisture reader. I got anywhere from just under 20% to just under 30%. 
Again - this is wood I wanted to burn this season? Do I have to think about buying?

Thanks!


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## mywaynow (Sep 1, 2012)

All the same species?  Size?


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## Gark (Sep 1, 2012)

Sorry to say it olliek, but buying wood may not get you anything drier than you already have. There are hundreds of posts here telling of how bought wood sold as "seasoned" seldom is. Also posted here are suggestions that if purchasing wood (and expecting it be dry) you must use that moisture meter to check it before paying. Must test on a newly split surface with the probes parallel to the grain. Is your Castine particular to dry wood?


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## DexterDay (Sep 1, 2012)

Do you think you will burn all 6-7 cord? 

I would get as much as the 20% as possible. If you have 3-4 cord of that, then you should be fine.

Even if you burn the 30% its gonna probably be better than "Bought" wood. Just check your chimney often. People are out there that burn much worse than what you have... Much worse.


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## Woody Stover (Sep 1, 2012)

mywaynow said:


> All the same species? Size?


Yes, one species may be your 20% stuff or if the same species, maybe the smaller splits are drier. In lieu of testing every piece, you may be able to develop a feel for how light (dry) certain splits are. Sometimes dry pieces will make a sharp, ringing sound (bowling pin sound) when knocked together. This doesn't always work though. I've had larger splits that emitted a dull thud but when split made a much sharper sound. You could also split your large splits down to a smaller size if most of them are big. Burn your small stuff first, let freshly-split big ones dry longer.
There are many threads that cover various methods of getting by on less-than- ideal wood. Some are even on the first couple of pages in this forum. Good luck.


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## mywaynow (Sep 1, 2012)

If your looking at oak or hickory, your looking at a longer dry time.  If the stuff running upwards of 30% is ash or locust you may still be ok.  Like prior posts mention, split size is critical.  My opinion is that unsplit rounds are the slowest to cure.  If however, the 30% is the oak and hickory you are not so fortunate.  Those logs will not dry quickly.  My belief is that wood dries best during colder months.  The lower humidity will draw out moisture along with the winds and sun.


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## Brewmonster (Sep 1, 2012)

If that really is a $10 moisture meter you're using, you should probably take those readings with a fistful of salt.


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## Woody Stover (Sep 1, 2012)

Brewmonster said:


> If that really is a $10 moisture meter you're using, you should probably take those readings with a fistful of salt.


It's good enough to tell him that some of his splits are much drier than others. He'll find out exactly how wet they are when he throws them on a fire. Could do that now with an outside fire...


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## olliek (Sep 1, 2012)

thanks guys. I only started using wood last year. so I cut down a couple trees last year, but i bought most of it, all of is split, 14 - 16 inches long.

as for trees i have no idea, all i know i didn't cut down any birches, nor oaks.  I am going to heat 80% to 90% with wood and i used about 5 cords last winter and it was a very mild one. (I have 250 year old house with practically no insulation).

I checked a couple more logs, most of it in the 20 -25 range some over. I had one(!) with 18. Guess I will make have to make that particular one last.

I had to buy two cords of kiln dried last season at an extortionate price, so I wanted to avoid that.


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## Woody Stover (Sep 1, 2012)

olliek said:


> I checked a couple more logs, most of it in the 20 -25 range some over.


That's getting closer. I like <18 but it sounds like you'll make it OK.


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## Backwoods Savage (Sep 1, 2012)

Olliek, one thing in your favor is that the drying will continue. Hopefully your wood is stacked outdoor in the wind. That is how it will dry the fastest. Also, if it is stacked rather loosely that can also assist is a bit faster drying.

It really would be good to know what kind of wood you have and you need to keep this in mind for the future. Different types of wood dry at different rates and also burn at different rates. You might burn 5 1/2 cord of wood but if it is all marginal wood, you might find with good wood you can get by with 4 cord or something similar.

In addition, now is also a great time to be thinking about a year from now. Get next year's wood as soon as possible so it has the time to dry. You will be amazed at the difference once you have good dry wood. It will take less wood to give more heat and that is what you want.


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## jeff_t (Sep 1, 2012)

Brewmonster said:


> If that really is a $10 moisture meter you're using, you should probably take those readings with a fistful of salt.



My HF meter showed around 30% on oak that had been split and stacked for three years plus. Then I checked a fresh split cherry round that had been bucked up for a few months, and it showed 16%. I don't put any faith in it. But then, fresh split red oak blew it over limit, and standing dead ash checked 25%, about as I would expect.


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## Danno77 (Sep 1, 2012)

what method are you all using to test the MC of this stuff with your MMs? Make sure we are all taking out readings with the probes both along the grain, not perpendicular to it. It's sometimes good to remember that a split is not one solid MC number. it is dryer on the surfaces (not the fresh face) and dryer towards the ends. Therefore, when you say 30% that may be the wettest spot and an inch from either end could put you at 18%, halfway between the 18 and the 30% spots on the split might be mid 20s, then suddenly the overall average doesn't look so bad.


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## ScotO (Sep 1, 2012)

If you're checkin that wood at a fresh split area, let it sit a couple days and check it again.  Zap did this with some wood he had drying out, he did a resplit on it and it was pretty high on the meter.  Couple days later, it was in the 'good to go' zone.  I don't own a MM, I don't feel you really need one.  Big thing is, split your longer-to-dry woods (oak, hickory, beech) smaller, say 3"x3" or 4"x4".  They will dry out much faster if you keep the them on the small to medium size.  As MWN said, wood seems to dry better in the colder months (at least I feel it does).  Keep your wood that you plan on burning this winter 'top-covered', to keep the fall monsoons off of it.


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## Woody Stover (Sep 1, 2012)

jeff_t said:


> My HF meter showed around 30% on oak that had been split and stacked for three years plus. Then I checked a fresh split cherry round that had been bucked up for a few months, and it showed 16%. I don't put any faith in it.


I guess we'll have to determine the true MC by the oven-dry method. I'll dig up some of the old Battenkiller threads to refresh my memory.


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## jeff_t (Sep 1, 2012)

Danno77 said:


> what method are you all using to test the MC of this stuff with your MMs? Make sure we are all taking out readings with the probes both along the grain, not perpendicular to it. It's sometimes good to remember that a split is not one solid MC number. it is dryer on the surfaces (not the fresh face) and dryer towards the ends. Therefore, when you say 30% that may be the wettest spot and an inch from either end could put you at 18%, halfway between the 18 and the 30% spots on the split might be mid 20s, then suddenly the overall average doesn't look so bad.



I avoid a few inches from each end, and check in two or three different spots.

Do different species conduct electricity differently? Maybe the probes push in farther in softer wood? Dunno. Don't really care that much. I'll be burning four year old oak this winter. I bought the meter because the cool kids have them.


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## Grisu (Sep 1, 2012)

I do not think you will need to buy any wood - especially as it will unlikely be any better. I would do the following: Split them to small size and stack them loosely in the spot with the most sun and wind on your property. At best perpendicular to the prevalent wind current. (Edit: ) Stack the splits in single rows at least 1 ft better 2 ft apart. Put a top cover on since it is going to start raining more in the coming months. That should get you close enough to be able to burn it somewhat effectively in your stove. Clean your chimney often!

Another alternative is to find someone who is several years ahead and would switch some cords of seasoned wood for the same number of cords from you. That depends on how many other woodburners you know.

Overall I would not worry too much. Your wood is not optimal but better than the wood of most woodburners that are not on this site.


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## weatherguy (Sep 2, 2012)

You should be ok this year but as Dennis mentioned you should get next years wood soon so you'll be ahead of the game and not have to worry about it next winter, just remember if you get oak Id wait at least 2 years if not 3.


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## olliek (Sep 2, 2012)

And thanks again. I have most of it stacked with a cord or so that has been lying on my drive for the last three months or so - my wife wanted chickens, so building a coop took priority (I had no choice but just nod, smile and say yes ma'am).
I will split the bigger ones in there again. I re-stacked a pile yesterday to a spot in front of the garage that gets the most sun a day. No I just need to find a spot for the remainder.

Not wanting to be a stickler for detail, but what do you consider small in terms of splits?

Also - yes , MM fresh split along the grain. And I measure at multiple spots, but usually go by the highest reading.


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## ScotO (Sep 2, 2012)

olliek said:


> Not wanting to be a stickler for detail, but what do you consider small in terms of splits?


 3x3 to 4x4 is what I consider to be a 'small' split.


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## red oak (Sep 2, 2012)

olliek said:


> thanks guys. I only started using wood last year. so I cut down a couple trees last year, but i bought most of it, all of is split, 14 - 16 inches long.
> 
> as for trees i have no idea, all i know i didn't cut down any birches, nor oaks. I am going to heat 80% to 90% with wood and i used about 5 cords last winter and it was a very mild one. *(I have 250 year old house with practically no insulation).*
> 
> ...


 
If possible I would address this before winter.  Otherwise the heat that you worked so hard to create is going straight out of your house (a good portion of it anyway).  Also maybe check around your house for areas that may be contributing to heat loss, like windows and doors.  When I lived in an old farmhouse I put caulk and plastic on the windows before each winter, it may be something you want to consider.

As for the wood, burn what you got.  Start with the driest and work your way back.  With luck you may not have to use the greener wood, or if you do it will have had a few additional months of drying.  And yes start thinking now about wood for next year!  Good luck!


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## clemsonfor (Sep 2, 2012)

I think EPA stoves state 25% MC but im not sure? Ill go pull up my manual online, but you will be fine with 25% wood, it may hiss for 15 mins, but it will burn fine. Yea we wish we all has 10% wood but unless you have a barn full of the stuff for 3 years its not gonna happen. I have a stack of oak in the back of the shed that im saving for i dont know what (i take a split and resplit it for kindling every few days) and its sitting at about 10-13%, but its going on 4 years spit i think.


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## cptoneleg (Sep 2, 2012)

Scotty Overkill said:


> If you're checkin that wood at a fresh split area, let it sit a couple days and check it again. Zap did this with some wood he had drying out, he did a resplit on it and it was pretty high on the meter. Couple days later, it was in the 'good to go' zone. I don't own a MM, I don't feel you really need one. Big thing is, split your longer-to-dry woods (oak, hickory, beech) smaller, say 3"x3" or 4"x4". They will dry out much faster if you keep the them on the small to medium size. As MWN said, wood seems to dry better in the colder months (at least I feel it does). Keep your wood that you plan on burning this winter 'top-covered', to keep the fall monsoons off of it.


 

I thought the purpose of checking the inside of a FRESH split was to find out what the moisture content is inside,   checking it in a few days just means the outside has dried some.

Burn the wood, just work on being better prepared in the future.


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## ScotO (Sep 2, 2012)

cptoneleg said:


> I thought the purpose of checking the inside of a FRESH split was to find out what the moisture content is inside, checking it in a few days just means the outside has dried some.
> 
> Burn the wood, just work on being better prepared in the future.


 throw the moisture meter away, just use good judgement.  If it sizzles bad, check your flue often.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 2, 2012)

Just burn the stuff with the highest reading last. That means it keeps drying for another six or seven months before you get to it. Drying doesn't stop the first day you light off your stove for the season.


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## olliek (Sep 2, 2012)

why do I seem to remember that drying stops as soon as temperatures drop below 50? 

In any ways, I am trying to make a dent by having than I burn, but here in suburban paradise possibilities are limited....

Now please don't crucify me, but i sort of browsed around and came across the biobrick thread. Now what would you think if I bought a ton of these bricks use them and rather not touch the moist stuff until next year? I will most likely have to buy next year anyway so from what i heard the price compares to a cord of wood around here.

i don't think I am a brick guy but if it bridges the gap, would you do it?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 2, 2012)

Ya burn what ya gotta burn. If we had bricks around here and the price was decent I would burn some.


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## clemsonfor (Sep 2, 2012)

If you cant get anybetter wood i prolly would do brick vs what you said was high kiln price.  But honestly the 30% is not optimal but will still keep you warm, just leave it open longer before shutting air down to help boil off the water.

Plenty of folks grew up cutting wood this time of year and later to burn this winter. Not the smartest thing but they were still warm.  We know better and know you get more heat and less crosote but you still will be OK even at 30%.


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## Danno77 (Sep 2, 2012)

olliek said:


> why do I seem to remember that drying stops as soon as temperatures drop below 50?
> 
> In any ways, I am trying to make a dent by having than I burn, but here in suburban paradise possibilities are limited....
> 
> ...


First, wood dries great in the winter because of the drier air. Second, bricks wouldn't be a bad idea, but I'd be more inclined to mix it with wood than use it as a replacement.


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## Sprinter (Sep 2, 2012)

olliek said:


> *why do I seem to remember that drying stops as soon as temperatures drop below 50?*


It's relative humidity that's important, not necessarily temperature. The RH may go up when temps go down, but wood will continue to dry anyway. I remember visiting Eastern Colorado once in mid winter and one day it snowed a couple of inches. The next morning it was almost all gone, not from melting because it was like -10°F, but it was so dry that the snow literally dried out from sublimation. Depending on the climate, your wood can "freeze dry", too. I'm in the wet NW, so it's a lot different here, but as long as the air can still hold moisture, it will continue to pick up moisture from the wood. Even at 90% RH, wood can still get down to 20-25% MC. It just takes longer. And, of course, the air must circulate freely through the stack.


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## Backwoods Savage (Sep 2, 2012)

olliek said:


> And thanks again. I have most of it stacked with a cord or so that has been lying on my drive for the last three months or so - my wife wanted chickens, so building a coop took priority (I had no choice but just nod, smile and say yes ma'am).
> I will split the bigger ones in there again. I re-stacked a pile yesterday to a spot in front of the garage that gets the most sun a day. No I just need to find a spot for the remainder.
> 
> Not wanting to be a stickler for detail, but what do you consider small in terms of splits?
> ...


 
Don't forget olliek, wind will dry that wood faster than sun. Sun is good, but only if you have good air circulation. Shoot, we've stacked wood in the shade many times and had no problems because it was in the wind. And I'm like Scott, I've never seen a need for a MM.


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## olliek (Sep 2, 2012)

i try and stack them loosely and two deep. i have couple of stacks in the shade that i think are more exposed to the wind, it's more like a location problem, unless i put them bang in the middle of the drive there are not a lot possibilities left. but thanks for the wind fact, i thought being fully exposed to the sun won;ld dry them more. learned something. 
i will give the brick a call on tuesday and see what he wants,  i stacked away the last pile with relative frequents readings and it was only rarely over 25. so me breathing a bit easier.
oh yea and the next winter, i am on that too, one tree down and one to go, then i need to figure out where to get free wood here on the south shore.


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## clemsonfor (Sep 2, 2012)

If you can find some dead pine that was killed a year or 2 ago and cut that it should be ready by the time you split it and want to burn it in a few months, if kept out of the rain.  That or some dead standing wood without bark on it.  Know anywhere you can scrounge any piles of dead pine?


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## bogydave (Sep 2, 2012)

"You burn what you got , seasoned or not"
 Like said, burn the driest stuff first, the other will be drier by that time.
Lots of good ideas posted.
You may be ahead already with 6 or 7 cords CSS.
MMs help but if you get you wood CSS & five it a full year +, (oak 2 + years)
You'll be amazed how much better 2 yr old seasoned wood burns, but 1 year seasoned will burn OK.
Try to keep the rain off of it, burn season is close. Top cover is the best , still lets air circulate.
The 50° temp & wood stops drying, is BS. IMO


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## olliek (Sep 3, 2012)

clemsonfor said:


> If you can find some dead pine that was killed a year or 2 ago and cut that it should be ready by the time you split it and want to burn it in a few months, if kept out of the rain. That or some dead standing wood without bark on it. Know anywhere you can scrounge any piles of dead pine?


 
didn't someone tell me not to burn pine? <-- this is like school here


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## Grisu (Sep 3, 2012)

Ah, the pine myth: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/burned-again-by-the-pine-myth.89299/
Properly seasoned pine is safe to burn as pretty much any other wood. Problem is you can burn it too wet leading to a lot of creosote which may then give you a chimney fire. Dry pine is great to get a fire going or for quick, hot fires in the shoulder season. Nevertheless, I do not think you need it for this winter but if you have trouble finding free wood, pine is usually very easy to get.


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## clemsonfor (Sep 3, 2012)

And i have some pine that i cut in say june and split, its already at 17%MC  It was green when i cut it up  And these are Big splits, 18" long and im checking the 6-7" diameter pieces for moisture.  But yea, dry the stuff burns as clean as oak, but due to the HIGHLY flamible resins its possible to burn green trees with little effort, leading to the myth.


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## Sprinter (Sep 3, 2012)

clemsonfor said:


> And i have some pine that i cut in say june and split, its already at 17%MC It was green when i cut it up And these are Big splits, 18" long and im checking the 6-7" diameter pieces for moisture. But yea, dry the stuff burns as clean as oak, but due to the HIGHLY flamible resins its possible to burn green trees with little effort, leading to the myth.


That's really impressive (and encouraging).  I assume that 17% is inside of a fresh split?


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## olliek (Sep 3, 2012)

aaahhhh the good news keep coming in... I have at least 2 40-50ft pine trees that i need to bring down. Well - I'd love it to be me, but due to the closeness to the house I guess i might need some professional help. I was getting agitated not being able to be burn all that wood, but now there is a whole new world opening up!


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## clemsonfor (Sep 3, 2012)

Yea sprinter thats inside a fresh split. Some are in the low 20'a but most are under 20%??  Remember i live in the south, and we had several weeks where we either hovered near 100F or eclipsed the mark, and about that time we had not gotten rain for weeks.  I attibute this to the rapid drying. I do admit its father along than i even thought it would be this time of year.  There were 2 different trees, one was fresh cut i guess this spring and on a debris pile that i cut early summer and the other was in my wood cutting buddies yard (he wont burn it, except for kindling!!) that was recently cut.  I mean i guess they could both have been on the ground for a month or so, its not like i severed the stump myself but they were still GREEN when i bucked them and then split it a week or 2 later.


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## Backwoods Savage (Sep 3, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> That's really impressive (and encouraging). I assume that 17% is inside of a fresh split?


 
And another welcome to the forum. You are like many who have come here and it can be an eye opener when you find that indeed, you can burn pine!

Actually I recall times in my youth when we took vacation. In northern MI, one can expect some cold air almost any time. Lots of old cabins with fireplaces in parks and such and almost all of them burned pine in the fireplace. So I've never thought it strange to burn the stuff but there are probably millions out there who still have the myth.

It is a shame you can't cut those pines down. But have you considered hiring someone just to drop them and you do all the bucking? That could save you a lot and you still get to work on them.


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## clemsonfor (Sep 3, 2012)

Thing about pine is you will get half the burn time out of it vs most hardwoods.  This honestly is the main reason i shy away from it. Its just about the same work for the same volume of wood for half the heat.  I did get the 1/4 of a cord or so that i did so that i could have some "bone dry" wood to test and see how it performs in my stove. If i like it i know i can get lots of it thats dead and will be read in short order if i decide i like it.


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## Backwoods Savage (Sep 3, 2012)

But that is also one plus for burning the pine during the daytime hours or spring/fall burns.


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## Sprinter (Sep 3, 2012)

Shouldn't burn pine?  I never heard that before I found this forum.  I grew up in Spokane.  That's all we had there.  If you don't burn pine, you don't burn.  Lots of fireplaces, few house fires (that I knew of, anyway...)


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## Wood Duck (Sep 3, 2012)

I think you can burn what you have. It would burn better if it were drier, but it will still burn. Burn the driest stuff you have, check the flue frequently, and I predict you'll stay warm. Get next year's wood stacked immediately so you won't be in the same situation next fall.


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## James02 (Sep 4, 2012)

Pallets!


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## DanCorcoran (Sep 4, 2012)

olliek said:


> aaahhhh the good news keep coming in... I have at least 2 40-50ft pine trees that i need to bring down. Well - I'd love it to be me, but due to the closeness to the house I guess i might need some professional help.


 
Yes, you can either seek professional help bringing the trees down, or rebuilding the house...


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## firefighterjake (Sep 5, 2012)

olliek said:


> didn't someone tell me not to burn pine? <-- this is like school here


 
I doubt anyone here told you that . . . many of us burn pine or other softwoods.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 5, 2012)

Like others . . . I think the drying process will continue and you will be OK . . . especially if you start off burning the better stuff first . . . keep inspecting and cleaning your chimney when necessary . . . and you run the stove at the right temps.

At this point it is highly unlikely you will be able to find any better wood for sale at reasonable prices . . . you can look . . . but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I suspect you will be fine this year . . .


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## olliek (Sep 24, 2012)

and thanks again guys for all the input. much appreciated. I keep re-splitting and checking, and I seem to get a more consistent read around 20. I am feeling abit more relaxed now. Having said that I made a booboo with one of my stacks, but that's a story for another thread.


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## Ashful (Sep 24, 2012)

mywaynow said:


> My belief is that wood dries best during colder months. The lower humidity will draw out moisture along with the winds and sun.


 
Not around here!  Don't confuse your ultra-low indoor relative humidity, falsely created by heating cool air of average humidity, with outdoor relative humidity.  The average afternoon relative humidity in eastern PA is higher in December and January than any other months of the year.  It's actually lowest in the spring, and stays fairly low thru July.





In addition, the blazing sun of June - August go a long way to heating and drying your stacks, the same way heating air in your home in the winter makes your home so dry during those months.


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## scotvl (Sep 24, 2012)

I burnt some 15% pine mixed with some ash uglies last night and the pine lasted almost 3 hours before it disappeared.


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## mywaynow (Sep 24, 2012)

Overall average for NJ year round varies from  66-76%.  Not much of a swing with the high in Sept. and low in April.


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## Ashful (Sep 24, 2012)

Yeah... peak morning humidity is pretty constant year round, which tightens up the daily averages.  Since wood does most of its drying in the afternoon (when it's warm, dry, and the sun is shining), I just posted the average afternoon lows.  Still, not much of a range, but it does demonstrate the point, that outdoor relative humidity is not lower in the winter.

The interesting thing is that absolute humidity is actually lower in the winter, which is what gives you the near-constant relative humidity, despite the lower temperatures.


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## mfglickman (Sep 24, 2012)

olliek said:


> thanks guys. I only started using wood last year. so I cut down a couple trees last year, but i bought most of it, all of is split, 14 - 16 inches long.
> 
> as for trees i have no idea, all i know i didn't cut down any birches, nor oaks. I am going to heat 80% to 90% with wood and i used about 5 cords last winter and it was a very mild one. (I have 250 year old house with practically no insulation).
> 
> ...


 

Hey and welcome from another 250 year old house owner. I feel your pain on the insulation. We had an energy audit done and the team thought the blower test was malfunctioning - could not BELIEVE that much air was escaping...

We've done some airsealing, have learned that our ductwork is like swiss cheese (and possibly nonexistent up several walls, where cooled/warmed air pours out of electrical outlets and light switches). We insulated the attic last year as it literally had none, and this year are trying to get foam insulation into at least one of the 3 crawlspaces (that being the one below the wood stove room, and the largest room in the house). Definitely recommend the energy audit and all the goodies they will provide for you, if you are in MA. In MA they do work for you for free, in CT they offer you loans to pay for some of it. (grin).

Last winter we burned some of those pressed bricks. We tried Bio, Envi, and the Tractor Supply versions. I liked the first two better as they were smaller and more dense, and they didn't get fluffy and fall apart like the TSC ones did. But the TSC ones are cheap so that counts for something. We bought several cords of "seasoned" wood but none of it was worth burning. We did get one cord (might have been a half) that really was seasoned, and found someone who was no longer burning and wanted some stacks removed, that provided the rest of our fuel. We tried burning some of the other stuff but it was futile - gave very little heat and burned dirty IMO. 

Can you put up some pics and history of your house in one of the forums? 


Mary


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## Ashful (Sep 24, 2012)

mfglickman said:


> Definitely recommend the energy audit and all the goodies they will provide for you, if you are in MA. In MA they do work for you for free, in CT they offer you loans to pay for some of it. (grin).


 
Nothing is free. The only difference is that if you live in MA, the _rest_ of us are taking out loans to pay for it.

On behalf of an 239 year-old un-insulated homeowner, and top-bracket taxpayer, you are welcome.


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## mfglickman (Sep 24, 2012)

Joful said:


> Nothing is free. The only difference is that if you live in MA, the _rest_ of us are taking out loans to pay for it.
> 
> On behalf of an 239 year-old un-insulated homeowner, and top-bracket taxpayer, you are welcome.


 

Um, OK. I live in CT, and I don't talk politics, or my own taxes, on web forums.


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## olliek (Sep 24, 2012)

mfglickman said:


> Hey and welcome from another 250 year old house owner. I feel your pain on the insulation. We had an energy audit done and the team thought the blower test was malfunctioning - could not BELIEVE that much air was escaping...
> 
> We've done some airsealing, have learned that our ductwork is like swiss cheese (and possibly nonexistent up several walls, where cooled/warmed air pours out of electrical outlets and light switches). We insulated the attic last year as it literally had none, and this year are trying to get foam insulation into at least one of the 3 crawlspaces (that being the one below the wood stove room, and the largest room in the house). Definitely recommend the energy audit and all the goodies they will provide for you, if you are in MA. In MA they do work for you for free, in CT they offer you loans to pay for some of it. (grin).
> 
> ...


 Hey - I was thinking about having one done, but always thought, they will be stating the obvious. i have single glazed windows - old beautiful glas, but at least I put the storm windows over it for now. We got some insulation up on the attic at least. The basement and the crawl spaces are hih up on the list (if I manage to find away working around the tube wiring  ). I might try and contact some tree services and see if I can scrounge some wood there. for this year, i ordered a ton of the bio bricks and will see how it goes. The costs corresspond to what I would pay for a cord of "seasoned" wood. And even a cord of unseasoned wood is only slightly cheaper.  But maybe I will have them do an energy audit after all. never heard about TSC?

As to the house, I don't have any pictures here at work but if you care to suffer through some insufferable sleazy sales talk you can find a video of the house here: http://www.wellcomemat.com/video/Unknown/Unknown/house-for-sale/AA67FFCFB6APT/

Ollie


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## olliek (Sep 24, 2012)

Joful said:


> Nothing is free. The only difference is that if you live in MA, the _rest_ of us are taking out loans to pay for it.
> 
> On behalf of an 239 year-old un-insulated homeowner, and top-bracket taxpayer, you are welcome.


 
Thanks, can I send you the rest of my tax bills as well?


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## mfglickman (Sep 24, 2012)

olliek said:


> Hey - I was thinking about having one done, but always thought, they will be stating the obvious. i have single glazed windows - old beautiful glas, but at least I put the storm windows over it for now. We got some insulation up on the attic at least. The basement and the crawl spaces are hih up on the list (if I manage to find away working around the tube wiring  ). I might try and contact some tree services and see if I can scrounge some wood there. for this year, i ordered a ton of the bio bricks and will see how it goes. The costs corresspond to what I would pay for a cord of "seasoned" wood. And even a cord of unseasoned wood is only slightly cheaper. But maybe I will have them do an energy audit after all. never heard about TSC?
> 
> As to the house, I don't have any pictures here at work but if you care to suffer through some insufferable sleazy sales talk you can find a video of the house here: http://www.wellcomemat.com/video/Unknown/Unknown/house-for-sale/AA67FFCFB6APT/
> 
> Ollie


 
I'd recommend the audit. I think there's a thread in the Pellets forum that someone in MA wrote about theirs. In ours the audit team spent a few hours with weatherstripping and caulk hitting the big air leaks and left me with a list of others. And because I did the audit, I can get a $2500 loan at 0% to do some insulation or duct sealing this year - not bad. They also replaced a lot of our bulbs.

We have single pane glass too, with exterior storms. The auditors were surprised at how little air actually leaked from these. Beautiful and functional too.  The fireplaces on the other hand...total air sucks.

Your house is beautiful and I really enjoyed the cheesy voiceover. Our houses are similar but I am drooling at your bedroom fireplace. Which of the hearths did you put a woodstove in? You may live local to Jeremy (JHarkin) - who you'll see here and on the oldhouseweb.com forums - and he has a house similar to our two as well. Hopefully he'll see this thread as well!

Mary

ETA: TSC=Tractor Supply Company.


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## olliek (Sep 24, 2012)

mfglickman said:


> I'd recommend the audit. I think there's a thread in the Pellets forum that someone in MA wrote about theirs. In ours the audit team spent a few hours with weatherstripping and caulk hitting the big air leaks and left me with a list of others. And because I did the audit, I can get a $2500 loan at 0% to do some insulation or duct sealing this year - not bad. They also replaced a lot of our bulbs.
> 
> We have single pane glass too, with exterior storms. The auditors were surprised at how little air actually leaked from these. Beautiful and functional too.  The fireplaces on the other hand...total air sucks.
> 
> ...


 
IThanks - the stove is in the old kitchen - i.e. now dining room, the red painted brick with a bread oven on the side. Because these houses were built around the chimney, the dining room is the most central. but i might put a smaller stove into the library as well. i know the fireplaces are air sucks but, i want to keet the one in the living room (romatic at heart). it is just nice sitting there. I actually found when I put a small fire into the living room fireplace, the rest of te rooms seem to heat up a little bit.


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## clemsonfor (Sep 24, 2012)

mfglickman said:


> I'd recommend the audit. I think there's a thread in the Pellets forum that someone in MA wrote about theirs. In ours the audit team spent a few hours with weatherstripping and caulk hitting the big air leaks and left me with a list of others. And because I did the audit, I can get a $2500 loan at 0% to do some insulation or duct sealing this year - not bad. They also replaced a lot of our bulbs.
> 
> We have single pane glass too, with exterior storms. The auditors were surprised at how little air actually leaked from these. Beautiful and functional too.  The fireplaces on the other hand...total air sucks.
> 
> ...


 So they weatherstripped, and caulked and replaced some of your lights for FREE???  Im still not understanding this. WHY would somecompany give you a free $80 service call, spend $50/hr labor at your house, replace $1/bulb lightbulbs and fill gaps with $3/tube caulk?


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## mfglickman (Sep 24, 2012)

This is the CT program:

http://www.ctenergyinfo.com/energy-programs.htm

and this is the MA program:

http://www.masssave.com/residential/home-energy-assessments

Don't know where you are in SC but there are some programs there too. 

http://www.eesi.org/south-carolina-homes-receive-energy-efficiency-retrofits-30-mar-2011

Yeah, they swapped out incandescents for CFLs, did some caulking and weatherstripping.


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## clemsonfor (Sep 24, 2012)

He basically got a grant. I have 2 properties on different company grinds. One is 1 of 2 of the big SC electric providers, it being the State electric CO OP, which inturn is almost double the price of the privite electric company operating in the same state. So much for those COOP's saving me money!!  Anyway the farm property is on a small COOP that gets power from the big COOP so there even higher, but they do payout a portion of the profits to remain a COOP.  I did use to live in the area where the other large privite company operated,  powere was about 60% of what i pay now. And if you live across the state line your power costs 40% of what i pay in the winter???? And georgia is 30 mins from me!

Anyway, my point other than cost sharing for annual maintence things i have not heard of any programs like this in this state. Plenty of grants from COOPs, from Obama's "stash" for stimulus spending or "wealth redistribution" but honestly i dont think we have the fee upgrades like light changeing and caulking?

WHy does the company do FREE work, were they trying to sell you something, like better windows or a new roof or something?


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## clemsonfor (Sep 24, 2012)

OK went to my power provider. I can Receive a free energy audit. But all they will do is walk around my house and tell me things, things i already know, like my water heater is 10 years old and would do better if new even better if it was an instant. Or you need more insulation, insulate pipes, calk ALL your mouldings. Or replace incandecents with CFLs, but every light that we normally would turn on in a week is already a CFL, some light in guest areas or part we dont use are incandecent lights. Or that i should replace my duct work as its old. Blah blah.

I really would like one of the door blower tests but i think around here there several hundred $$ to have done. I just dont understand why they would be free? It has to be a fed or state grant that your power provider got.

I could receive a few free CFLs i see.

http://www.sceg.com/en/energywise-a...kup/default.htm?WT.mc_id=HP-PR-energy-checkup


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## Backwoods Savage (Sep 24, 2012)

Most of us have a few of those booboos every now and then.


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## Ashful (Sep 25, 2012)

mfglickman said:


> We have single pane glass too, with exterior storms. The auditors were surprised at how little air actually leaked from these. Beautiful and functional too.


 
Glad to hear you're keeping the original windows, but the auditors should not be surprised. It's well established and proven many times over that an old-fashioned single-pane window with a decent storm window, both in good repair, will outperform almost any modern double-glazed replacement window without a storm. You simply can't beat a 4" air gap with a 1/4" air gap, no matter what games you play with glasses and gasses. "There's no replacement for displacement," is applicable to more than muscle cars.

For others considering the same, there are more reasons to keep your old windows than I can list here, but here's a few:

1. A single pane window in good repair with a good storm window will outperform most modern double-pane replacement windows on energy savings.
2. It's almost always cheaper to repair your original windows and/or install new storm windows, than to do replacement windows.
3. If an old house, you will never make it look "right" with modern replacement windows.
4. My old windows are still in good shape after 240 years, due to construction with quality old-growth hardwoods. The average life span of replacement windows is 20 - 30 years.
5. It only takes one owner in a home's life to ruin it by pulling the original windows. Don't make every future owner of your house hate you.

PS - The comment about "free audits" for those in MA was not directed at you, just a general statement about the over-reaching nature of our federal government.  You're right... not a topic for _this _forum, although also not likely to upset or surprise many here.


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## olliek (Sep 25, 2012)

Joful said:


> Glad to hear you're keeping the original windows, but the auditors should not be surprised. It's well established and proven many times over that an old-fashioned single-pane window with a decent storm window, both in good repair, will outperform almost any modern double-glazed replacement window without a storm. You simply can't beat a 4" air gap with a 1/4" air gap, no matter what games you play with glasses and gasses. "There's no replacement for displacement," is applicable to more than muscle cars.
> 
> For others considering the same, there are more reasons to keep your old windows than I can list here, but here's a few:
> 
> ...


 
Unfortunately our previous owner wasn't overly diligent with the windows. They are all, painted or nailed shut, some of the sashes need replacement, etc. There is a woman in our town who specializes in these old windows, and we had her over. Unfortunately it is a$1,000 a pop. I want to do most of the work myself, and I can do a lot of things, but I am a bit afraid that I would break some of the old, original glass panes.


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## Ashful (Sep 25, 2012)

I have dealt with the same, and $1000/ea. is almost exactly what I paid to have two rebuilt here, when I was in the process of moving and they needed to be done in an emergency.

Depending on your skills and equipment, I'd encourage you to do it yourself.  There's nothing you'll break that can't be repaired with some effort.  In my case, it appears my sashes are original to 1773, but most of the casings / frames were rebuilt at some point in the last 150 years.  I'm rebuilding those again, and in some cases correcting fit issues, but more often just replacing rotten sills and lower stiles.  It's a ton of work, and requires some thought and basic carpentry or woodworking skills, but it's not rocket surgery.  I used Spanish Cedar for replacement components on the first few, but haven't decided if I'll stick with that or try something else when I get to doing the rest.

Another technique I've used in wooden boat repair, but never in window repair, is outlined in this great article from Gougeon Bros.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/revisiting-a-church-window-restoration/

And to stay OT, you can use your moisture meter to detect potential moisture problems in your window casings and sills.


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## olliek (Sep 26, 2012)

Joful said:


> I have dealt with the same, and $1000/ea. is almost exactly what I paid to have two rebuilt here, when I was in the process of moving and they needed to be done in an emergency.
> 
> Depending on your skills and equipment, I'd encourage you to do it yourself. There's nothing you'll break that can't be repaired with some effort. In my case, it appears my sashes are original to 1773, but most of the casings / frames were rebuilt at some point in the last 150 years. I'm rebuilding those again, and in some cases correcting fit issues, but more often just replacing rotten sills and lower stiles. It's a ton of work, and requires some thought and basic carpentry or woodworking skills, but it's not rocket surgery. I used Spanish Cedar for replacement components on the first few, but haven't decided if I'll stick with that or try something else when I get to doing the rest.
> 
> ...


 
Oh I have stuck my moisture meter, in a lot of corners around the house including the windows! I will have to learn how to repair them, as with 24 windows i would have to sell mutliple organs...
thanks for the link, I actually used epoxy (rot doctor) to repair a damaged beam. And it is something i contemplate continue doing, as I want to elimintae as much replacement as possible.


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## olliek (Sep 29, 2012)

just by way of update - nice shoulder das here. Wife has been begging for days now. So here I am it is 70+ in here and I have nice fire going....(from my "good" stack!)


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