# Add On Wood Furnace Advice



## timeuser (Sep 2, 2009)

Hi all, I'm new here.

I'm looking to put in an add on wood furnace to supplement, and mostly replace the use of my propane furnace. I'm in a 1200 sq ft ranch style with an unfinished basement where the furnace would go. The propane furnace is in the basement and has ductwork all run and I was thinking ideally I could hook into that existing ductwork with a wood furnace with blower. There's already a separate chimney at the end of the house that was used with a wood furnace up until 15 years ago or so. So far after reading a bit on here and looking around online I've been considering the Caddy Add On furnace that qualifies for the tax credit or possibly the Englander 28-3500 which I could pick up at the local Lowe's. I'm not sure if perhaps either of those may be bigger than what I need though.

Any advice or suggestions about what I'm thinking or alternatives you think I should consider would be much appreciated. Thanks!


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## Eric Johnson (Sep 2, 2009)

Hi timeuser. Welcome to the Boiler Room.

Your plan sounds like a good one. There are details you will want to get into as you get closer to making a decision about which furnace to buy, the best way to install it, etc. My only question upfront is: what shape is the chimney in? I assume it's lined. You'll get a fair amount of creosote with most wood furnaces, so you will need to good strategy for chimney maintenance and cleaning. You should be able to pipe the hot air output into your existing ducting. You may or may not need to draw combustion air from the outside, but it's something to plan for in case you do need to do it.


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## timeuser (Sep 2, 2009)

I figured the chimney was my first thing to make sure was good. It is a stacked cinder block type with 8" round clay tile liners. It's 18' from bottom to top. I've looked into it with a flashlight and looked at the outside and it looks okay to me, but I think I need to have someone check it out and make sure it isn't cracked anywhere for sure. A friend suggested the possibility of lining it with insulated two walled stainless steel to be safer and more efficient but if it's not cracked maybe that's overkill? I'll have to check the size on my existing furnace and look at the chimney some more later today.

Thanks a lot guys!


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## Stihl_WoodBandit (Sep 2, 2009)

I was in the same boat you are last December.  I was tired going through so much propane.  I bought a US Stove 1557M from my local Tractor Supply for $1050 and with $20 worth of black 6" stove pipe, dampers and misc accessories i was up and running in about 4 hours.

My old farmhouse has an interior chimney, an unfinished basement, and I utilized the existing 'card/fiberglass' duct board.  To get me through the winter, i just sucked in the cooler basement air to my blowers-but this year i'm building a cold air return/filter box that will be tied in to the return trunk line.  

I have a few guys at work that have my same stove an we are all happy with it.  Out of curiousity, how much of a tax credit do you get?


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## timeuser (Sep 2, 2009)

The 2009/2010 tax credit is 30% for stoves that meet the efficiency requirement which it appears the Caddy does. That would make it close to the same cost as the 28-3500 which doesn't. 

My existing furnace is an 80,000 BTU Trane XE90 so it seems to be similar in size to the 28-3500 BTU-wise, the Caddy looks to be rated around 100,000 BTU which is a little bigger. How close of a match do you guys think I should ideally be sizewise?

I'm gonna talk to my brother about the ductwork, sizing and such also, he does HVAC and installed the gas furnace and duct we have. But it's really nice to be able to have a conversation like this with some people with experience as I think it all through and figure it out.


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## mike1234 (Sep 2, 2009)

I have a Yukon that I am very happy with, and I think I read that they now also qualify for the tax credit.  My propane usage for a 4800 sq ft house with ok insulation from last November to now has been less than 250 gallons (for hot water, and as backup for the yukon when I am out of town).

I have a superjack, with only 1200' you could go with the smaller one.

I like the superjack because it has over 8 hour burn times, even burning in an uninsulated garage.  As I am finishing and insulating the garage this fall I expect even better burn times.  It took me most of the winter to get those burn times though, there is a learning curve.

Even though I like mine,  if it was set up in an insulated area, I think I would have been happy with any of wood furnaces that have an electric motor that runs the air supply and is regulated by a thermostat.  Given the uninsulated garage, I am really glad I got the yukon.


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## laynes69 (Sep 2, 2009)

I have a 1950 hotblast (Caddy). It would run you out of the house. The units are well built, do qualify for the tax credit and are the only EPA certified furnaces on the market right now. They sell a smaller furnace called the Mini caddy which also qualifies for the tax credit and is EPA Certified. Its a furnace that will produce 75,000 btus of heat. This would be more of a size that you would need. Either way both have a nice glass door. The downfall is price, but you get a higher combustion furnace. There are other furnaces out there that do qualify for the tax credit, but beware that coal is not a biomass fuel. Therefore not qualifying for a tax credit. Another option is the new blaze king woodfurnace. It has a catalyst in it and it rated around 48,000 btus. Like said you don't need the full btus at the same time. If you can afford it, I would recommend an upgrade. Also if the chimney is sound, lining it would be a good idea. Here is some links.

http://www.psg-distribution.com/product.aspx?CategoId=16&Id=374    Mini Caddy

http://www.blazeking.com/Manuals/New-Manuals-2009/OM-APEX E V1.01.pdf   Blaze King

Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## herbdan (Sep 2, 2009)

From what I understand, talking to the dealer with whom I have my Blaze King on order from, they shipped out 20 of the new furnaces already.  It would be nice to hear from  someone who got one of those and get a report back on how critical that 13% moisture content is.  I think I read that Blaze King does not use hardwood for their evaluations, so who knows how good old oak will work at 18-20% moisture

Herbster


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## laynes69 (Sep 2, 2009)

The blaze king has post heated air on the catalyst. I'm sure that would help remove anything after the fact. 18 to 20% I would think shouldn't pose any issues. There also is a new furnace for energy king that is currently in the works for an EPA certification, and also has the tax credit. The Blaze King, Caddy, Energy King, and others operate on a thermostat with natural draft. Start a fire, load them and set the thermostat and walk away.


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## lexybird (Sep 3, 2009)

i have a 28-3500 englander ,a very nice furnace for the money it heats my 2,000 sq ft house great in the coldest january nights and is quality built with nice features  ,but having a secondary burn would be nice especially for less wood use and longer burn times .it seems  with the new tax credits and the benefits of a epa rated furnace i would be looking for a caddy if i was in the market for one  today .sure theres some furnaces out there that have a secondary burn ability in some form but they are basicly  the same unchanged  furnace sold back in the 70's .the caddy looks to be a clear modern step above the others no doubt


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## freeburn (Sep 3, 2009)

Nothing to add


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## timeuser (Sep 3, 2009)

The Caddy and Mini Caddy are listed at the links below, although I don't know anything about the site:

Caddy: $2,358.21
http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1131

Mini Caddy: $2,281.28
http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1835


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## laynes69 (Sep 3, 2009)

You beat me to it. Those prices include shipping.


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## freeburn (Sep 3, 2009)

Can somebody tell me how this tax break thing works. Do you get an actual guaranteed refund, or is it a deduction at the end of the year? 

So when all is said and done, this PSG would be $1650 give or take from Dynamite buys?


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## laynes69 (Sep 3, 2009)

You have to watch. The manufacturers will say consult a tax advisor. And they aren't liable for the ability to achieve tax credits. The way I have taken it when reading is, you get your certificate. When you file your taxes you get 30% back in the form of a credit. If you were getting 2000 and you filed your furnace, you may get 2600 back. I'm no tax expert, but this is the way I read it. I know I qualify due to my unit being EPA certified, not exempt. Basically its a buyers beware as far as I see it. Also the credit applies to wood only. I talked with energy king about their furnaces. If you buy the forced draft and install shaker grates to their new furnace, you do not get the credit, for it then would be a coal furnace. There are only a select few furnaces that qualify for the tax credit. You would pay full price now for the furnace, then come tax time you would get 30% back up to 1500. Considering you haven't used it on anything else. Its good for the 2009 2010 tax years. Also you cannot get it in new construction. You must be replacing a unit to qualify. Here is some reading material.

http://www.dynamitebuys.com/taxcredit.php


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## timeuser (Sep 3, 2009)

Also, as I understand it, the tax credit applies basically as a credit against the taxes you actually owe (up to $1500 off) and can include the cost of installation. That's better than a write off which just reduces your taxable income. However, if you didn't make very much money this year and you therefore didn't owe much in taxes, you wouldn't receive any more of the rebate than you owed total in income tax. But you'd have to have a pretty small income to owe less than $1500 in taxes!! You claim your credit when you file your taxes and keep your certificate and documentation of expenses etc. like any tax papers in your files for in case you get audited or whatever.

I hope I didn't just make that more confusing. ;-)


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## freeburn (Sep 3, 2009)

So it's a tax credit, not a deduction. Thanks, I understood what you said. Now do I keep my Woodchuck 526 or take advantage of this tax credit and score the PSG Caddy?


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## laynes69 (Sep 3, 2009)

I bought my furnace before even knowing about the tax credit. I didn't use that as a tool to purchase a new furnace, but to upgrade to a cleaner burning more efficient unit. Just then I realized I qualified for the credit which was a bonus. I'm looking forward to using less wood. I've had a few small fires in my furnace and its amazing how clean it burns. I had a raging fire in the firebox, and could touch the flue pipe on the unit. With the credit, and selling your old furnace it would be tempting. Thats what I'm doing.


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## lexybird (Sep 3, 2009)

theres a dealer near me (hes in titusville Pa.)selling the larger  caddie epa furnaces  for just over 2 grand  and he delivers  to your house and installs them in your basement .he says they are selling like crazy  and the new owners  are in love with them.


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## laynes69 (Sep 3, 2009)

Rural king here in Ohio sold out of them and said the same thing. I've heard nothing but good about them. I'm hoping to get a video of mine in operation here when it gets cold out. I did have a small northern light video on my cell I recorded from my 4th breakin fire.


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## freeburn (Sep 3, 2009)

Get that guy up here! They want over 3500 just for the unit up here from my local dealer! Obviously, they don't want any business on these things.


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## laynes69 (Sep 3, 2009)

Does that unit have oil or electric on it? 3500 sounds high if not.


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## freeburn (Sep 3, 2009)

Nope, just the add on. They are high on everything. Everyone else around here seems to be too. Not sure why?? They probably figure people are going to spend more if they are getting the tax credit.


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## Eric Johnson (Sep 3, 2009)

Getting back on the chimney discussion--round tile liners sound good. If there arent' any big cracks or other problems, it should be good to go as is. It's technically a Class A chimney, which is the spec for all woodburning appliances.

You may find it desirable to line it at some point with stainless steel, as you suggest. SS is safer and easier to clean, though not cheap. If I were you, I'd go with what you've got and see how it works this winter. If you have problems with creosote buildup or draft issues, consider upgrading to an insulated ss liner.


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## CaddyUser (Sep 3, 2009)

I have a Caddy Add-On, and it worked great last year.  Do a search for some of my posts in this section of the forum, and you can read up on them.

With regards to your chimney, the 8" would probably be too much draft for the Caddy, unless you install a barometric damper to moderate the draft.  I've found that with the Caddy, unless the draft is right, the heat is going to go up the stack.  Be sure that you, or your installer uses a manometer to check the actual draft, and adjusts to specification - don't guess these ones.

As for the ductwork and interconnection to the other furnace's blower, you should be fine.  

Hope this helps!


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## CrappieKeith (Sep 3, 2009)

poooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook said:
			
		

> laynes69 said:
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You obviously missed something....

The Caddy 450 lbs. vs SJ125 680 lbs so there's way more material in the SJ125 which includes more surface heat exchange area enabling you to exchange more heats.
The Caddy no reburn vs SJ125 yes on the reburn so you'll burn less wood.
they also want you to set a draft reg. at .04-.06 inches. The SJ125 is set at .03 so theres less heat going up the stack by design.
The Caddy lifetime on the welds and ashpan. 1st off welds hardly ever let go ..it's the steel next to the weld that only has 5 years.
The SJ125 has a 30 year on the firebox.In 12 years while working here I've only seen 3 that have burned out and they were all over 25 years old.

We sell factory direct...no middle man mark up...with Caddy your paying that mark up plus a fee to get it across the border.
So what are you really getting for your money?

Go ahead and get your Caddy....there are worse choices.
Caddy's should be way cheaper.They have less in them. It's the retailer that makes them almost equal in pricing.


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## laynes69 (Sep 3, 2009)

Epa Certification would be impossible without some sort of secondary combustion, or catalyst. I don't buy sales hypes. EPA Certified says alot. Why replace an old unit if it works just fine? You save wood, get more heat, a cleaner chimney and a beautiful fire that you can watch through the glass. You get a ton of bonuses with an upgrade. I can see a future with at least 2 more furnaces meeting EPA certification specs. And those were the blaze king, and the energy king. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking a Caddy is a cheap furnace. They are well built, alot of attention and design was put into the furnaces. They weigh less because of a glass door, thinner firebrick, etc. Both contain a 7 gauge firebox. I am very impressed with mine and I know others are as well! I had a blazing fire in my furnace, and I could touch my flue. They are efficient.


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## lexybird (Sep 4, 2009)

i like the big viewing window ,my englander has this too and its so nice being able to check on the status of the fire from the stairs without going al lthe way over and opening the door letting the heat out and emitting smoke .plus our lab  loves to watch the flame action too.i doubt i could ever go with  a wood burner  without a viewing window and having the secondaries kick in above must be a nice showy inferno to witness on the caddy


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## timeuser (Sep 5, 2009)

Alright... back to the chimney discussion...

I did some more in depth looking, I lowered my digital camera down on a string with a light and took video of the inside of the chimney. I could see the couple tiles near the bottom of the chimney have some cracks in them. There's a sizable vertical crack in the second tile from the bottom. So I definitely need to line it or take the tiles out and line it with something else. Any suggestions on what I should line it with? Should I plan on taking all the clay tiles out or would it be okay to put a liner inside them? They are 8" inner diameter tiles. Looks like I'd need a 6" flue if I go with the Mini Caddy which is what I'm leaning towards right now.


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## danno1 (Sep 10, 2009)

can a forced air  indoor wood furnace be put outside in a shed. ?


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## mike1234 (Sep 10, 2009)

I guess the question would be how would you move the air from the house to the shed and back to the house without loosing a lot of the heat?  And is your shed insulated enough to keep heat from the furnace in the shed,  not heating your neighborhood?  If you had a plan to do that, then I don't see why you could not do it.

I also have no clue what the building code would be in that situation.


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## Gooserider (Sep 15, 2009)

timeuser said:
			
		

> Alright... back to the chimney discussion...
> 
> I did some more in depth looking, I lowered my digital camera down on a string with a light and took video of the inside of the chimney. I could see the couple tiles near the bottom of the chimney have some cracks in them. There's a sizable vertical crack in the second tile from the bottom. So I definitely need to line it or take the tiles out and line it with something else. Any suggestions on what I should line it with? Should I plan on taking all the clay tiles out or would it be okay to put a liner inside them? They are 8" inner diameter tiles. Looks like I'd need a 6" flue if I go with the Mini Caddy which is what I'm leaning towards right now.



Might be worth getting a professional sweep to evaluate the condition - some minor cracking can be OK, missing chunks or similar usually isn't...  The problem you will find with an 8" diameter tile is getting a liner that will fit down it and still give you a useable flue...

Gooserider


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## GatorDL55 (Dec 9, 2009)

timeuser said:
			
		

> Alright... back to the chimney discussion...
> 
> I did some more in depth looking, I lowered my digital camera down on a string with a light and took video of the inside of the chimney. I could see the couple tiles near the bottom of the chimney have some cracks in them. There's a sizable vertical crack in the second tile from the bottom. So I definitely need to line it or take the tiles out and line it with something else. Any suggestions on what I should line it with? Should I plan on taking all the clay tiles out or would it be okay to put a liner inside them? They are 8" inner diameter tiles. Looks like I'd need a 6" flue if I go with the Mini Caddy which is what I'm leaning towards right now.



Any movement yet?  which furnace did you end up with?  I am going through the same thing right now trying to decide on an addon furnace that will best fit my setup.


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## timeuser (Dec 9, 2009)

I was gonna go with a Mini Caddy, but I ended up changing my mind on the add-on completely and putting in a wood stove upstairs. I just realized it was cheaper, more direct efficient heat where we need it and after looking at the pictures of the Caddy with it's see through glass my wife decided she'd like a nice hearth and visible fire in the livingroom. ;-)


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## Gooserider (Dec 9, 2009)

timeuser said:
			
		

> I was gonna go with a Mini Caddy, but I ended up changing my mind on the add-on completely and putting in a wood stove upstairs. I just realized it was cheaper, more direct efficient heat where we need it and after looking at the pictures of the Caddy with it's see through glass my wife decided she'd like a nice hearth and visible fire in the livingroom. ;-)



Sounds like a good approach - WAF is always an important consideration for certain...

Gooserider


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## GatorDL55 (Dec 9, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> timeuser said:
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WAF???


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## Gooserider (Dec 9, 2009)

GatorDL55 said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
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*W*ife *A*cceptance *F*actor....  As in "Install plans that have an insufficient level of WAF can result in him having to sleep with the stove...."  ;-P 

Gooserider


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