# stove pipe assembly debate



## kjsnooks (Oct 22, 2007)

Ok here is the debate. I was telling with my father in law about installin our stovepipe/chimney. I told him what i had read here about the crimped end down to prevent stuff from leaking out plus the benefit  i woudl see come cleaning time. He says the crimped end should be up because if the crimped end is down smoke in theory could escape the stove pipe on the way up.  I mentioned sealining each joint to prevent that but it did little to change his opinion. What do you knowledgeable folks have to say about it


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## jtp10181 (Oct 22, 2007)

All the pipe we sell has a "FLOW" sticker and the "crimped" (or male) end is always down for wood pipe. They call it a "drip-less" connection. Just as you said, keep liquid creosote from dripping out. Even if you do get a small amount of smoke leaking, the creosote will clog all that up after a few fires. Works just like furnace cement.


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## babalu87 (Oct 22, 2007)

There is no debate unless he wants to argue whether or not the sky is blue.


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## kjsnooks (Oct 22, 2007)

LOL he just may some day especially if it is me who says it is blue


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## Corey (Oct 22, 2007)

babalu87 said:
			
		

> There is no debate unless he wants to argue whether or not the sky is blue.



That about sums it up!

Corey


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## Metal (Oct 22, 2007)

Class A and Black Pipe are both "Neutral/Negative Pressure" pipe.  If anything they will pull room air into the pipe, if you are pushing smoke out you have issues.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 22, 2007)

Part of the father-in-law job description is to argue with the son-in-law.


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## backpack09 (Oct 22, 2007)

So is the crimped end on double wall stove pipe is supposed to go up or down?  The 6" double wall stove pipe I used has the crimped end at ~7"diameter so it does not fit into the stove, it fits over the stoves flange.  I have it installed over the flange, and am using an adaptor at the top to get into the cieling box/chimney support.

My install could be wrong, as there were no flow arrows on my pipe, and the instructions were very vague...


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## Metal (Oct 22, 2007)

Crimps go down on single or double wall black.


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## Bill (Oct 22, 2007)

My double wall interior pipe has the male (crimped end) end inside the pipe facing down and the double wall pipe fits over the stove adapter. Hope that makes sense it does to me.


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## backpack09 (Oct 22, 2007)

... No... it does not, I will take a picture of my setup when I get home.

For now here is a wonderful mspaint sketch


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## chad3 (Oct 22, 2007)

Backpack
You need to change the bottom of the flange if you are putting it over the stove connector.  Some European designs have a MM instead of IN pipe so it seems to not work but you can recrimp and maybe cement/rope it the right way.  The way you have it, liquid will seep out and make a mess of the stove and the floor.
I'm not sure of any other reason, if it works, I guess you can keep doing it.  
As a side, gas pipes are connected the opposite way, anyone know why?


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## backpack09 (Oct 22, 2007)

The ID of the stoves flange is 6", the OD is 7" and the crimped end fits OVER the flange.  So you are saying I must cut and adjust the 7" outside wall of the stove pipe to fit INSIDE of the flange.

I can understand the consern with gook dripping down onto my stovetop, but cutting the pipe to reduce the diameter of the outside wall does not sound like the correct way to go.

If I turn the pipe upside down, the inside wall is 6" and is also ribbed, and will slip inside of the stoves flange. But I am unable to screw it to the flange on the stove because the outer wall is in the way.

I think the brand of double wall was excel, but I cannot remember fore sure. I will check my manuals when I get home tonight.

If someone with experience installing thesese could point me in the right direction, I will be extremely grateful 

Thanks


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## Metal (Oct 22, 2007)

Here are the Installation Instructions from ICC (Excel).  It sounds like the section with the yellow label should be on top.


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## hearthtools (Oct 22, 2007)

Backpack09 said:
			
		

> So is the crimped end on double wall stove pipe is supposed to go up or down?  The 6" double wall stove pipe I used has the crimped end at ~7"diameter so it does not fit into the stove, it fits over the stoves flange.  I have it installed over the flange, and am using an adaptor at the top to get into the cieling box/chimney support.
> 
> My install could be wrong, as there were no flow arrows on my pipe, and the instructions were very vague...



Some double wall pipe like Excell have the outer wall edge crimped on the upper section do the pipes will fit together.
but if you really look that the pipe the INNER wall all Male ends are facing down in fit inside the lower pipe.


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## Highbeam (Oct 22, 2007)

"If I turn the pipe upside down, the inside wall is 6” and is also ribbed, and will slip inside of the stoves flange. But I am unable to screw it to the flange on the stove because the outer wall is in the way." 

My double wall DVL from Simpson has a flow arrow and when installed properly the outer layer of the double wall pipe prevents me from attaching the double wall to the stove's collar. The expanded section of double wall is expanded in place and held expanded by the screws in the middle. If I was to blindly screw a long self tapping screw through the outer wall of the double wall, through the stove collar and then through the inner wall of the connector pipe then I can see a very good chance of crushing the outer wall of the connector pipe and it being very ugly.

The inspector told me that the double wall does not get attached to the stove and approved it without collar screws.


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## hearthtools (Oct 22, 2007)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> "If I turn the pipe upside down, the inside wall is 6” and is also ribbed, and will slip inside of the stoves flange. But I am unable to screw it to the flange on the stove because the outer wall is in the way."
> 
> My double wall DVL from Simpson has a flow arrow and when installed properly the outer layer of the double wall pipe prevents me from attaching the double wall to the stove's collar. The expanded section of double wall is expanded in place and held expanded by the screws in the middle. If I was to blindly screw a long self tapping screw through the outer wall of the double wall, through the stove collar and then through the inner wall of the connector pipe then I can see a very good chance of crushing the outer wall of the connector pipe and it being very ugly.
> 
> The inspector told me that the double wall does not get attached to the stove and approved it without collar screws.



Yes 

The inter wall will be IN the stove collar and the outer wall will be on the OUT SIDE of the stove collar.
Some stoves (hearthstone Shelburn) you need to use a stove connector adapt to make double wall work because the cast iron flue collar on the stove is to thick for the double wall to fit over it.

this part will slip into the stove and you attach the upper halve between the outer wall in inner wall of the bottom of the double wall pipe.


To be truthful we rarely screw Double wall pipe to the stove.
once you screw all the other joints together and the long screws into the double wall pipe to Flue extension out of the support box
they pipe is not going nowhere.


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## backpack09 (Oct 22, 2007)

Ok, Here are the pictures.

The First Set is how I originally had it set up.


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## hearthtools (Oct 22, 2007)

Backpack09 said:
			
		

> Ok, Here are the pictures.
> 
> The First Set is how I originally had it set up.



NO NO NO

You are UPSIDE DOWN

the Crimp goes up and you need a Flue Extention coming out of your support box to connect your double wall pipe.

The open end of the pipe goes down so the inner wall goes into the lower section of pipe and the outer wall goes over the lower section of pipe


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## hearthtools (Oct 22, 2007)

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/ind...=6798_YtHKy0evUJO4A1DX9AG9&thumb=1&board_id=1

this part is the stove extention I posted above
it is ment to go into the stove for stoves that dont have a collar or a OD size collar that the open end of the pipe will not fit over


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## hearthtools (Oct 22, 2007)

It looks like you used the stove extention as a FLUE extention and this is wrong.

any pipe connected to Class A at the support box need to be over the OUTER edge of short 6" pipe that extends out the end of your class A
this is what you would need a flue extention for.
Duravent calls is a Close Clearance adapt.
ICC calls it a flue extention
NOT SURE WHAT THE OTHER CALL IT.


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## backpack09 (Oct 22, 2007)

And This is how I am reading how it should be installed.
But the diameter of the hole in my ceiling is 6" and the diameter of the double wall stove pipe will be 6.5"


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## hearthtools (Oct 22, 2007)

you need a flue extention or a close clearance adapt 
this is the pipe that sticks out of your support box
http://www.hearthtools.com/install/support-box.jpg


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## hearthtools (Oct 22, 2007)

Give me a few minutes
I just tooks some photos of differnt flue extentions
i need to reduce them down.
What brand of support box and Class A pipe is that?
It looks like you have ICC ultra black double wall but the Class A is ?


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## backpack09 (Oct 22, 2007)

If you could find me what Excel calls the flue adapter that would be great.  I looked through there catalog, and could not find anything like that. http://www.icc-rsf.com/Manuel_catalogue/XL-CAT.pdf . I appreciate the help. My inspector obviously knew less than I do about this.

Edit: To answer my own question... Excell/icc calls it a flue extension.

Thanks,


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## backpack09 (Oct 22, 2007)

I have a Duravent class A chimney.  Would a universal/other brand flue extension work with my excel stove pipe?

Thanks


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## hearthtools (Oct 22, 2007)

here are a few photos
if you have duravent you have to use the close clearance adaptor because you have air cooled pipe and not solid packed pipe
the close clearance adapt snaps into the support box from in the house.
it will snap to the box but extent over the small 6' pipe sticking out of the bottom of the class A


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## backpack09 (Oct 22, 2007)

Ok, Now I am confused and may have been mis-sold by my stove supplier.

I have Duravent Class A chimney pipe.  When buying my stove the stove shop sold me Excel Double Wall stove pipe and an adapter that I was using incorrectly.  I told then that I was installing a duravent chimney.

Will I be able to use the stove pipe I was sold, with duravent's close clearance adaptor?

Will I be able to use the stove pipe I was sold, with the the Excel/Icc flue extension?

Should I just bring back the Excel stove pipe that I was sold,  and find another supplier for the correct Duravent piping and close clearance adapter? This sounds like my only option.

I thought I was burning safely, come to find out I have had 10 "dangerous" fires.


Thank you for all of your help.


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## hearthtools (Oct 22, 2007)

return the Stove adapt that you used at the top.

I would keep the ICC double wall. i think it is better pipe and better looking than the Duravent double wall.
but if you feel better then find some duravent closeclearance double wall pipe.

Get a Duravent close clearance adapt. snap it into the support box
Larger Diameter end up

Slip the ICC double wall over the closeclearance adapter
put 3 screws in the pipe into the closeclearance adapter

put screws in the rest of the joints and you are done.


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## KeithO (Oct 22, 2007)

Here is how I solved all these issues:


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## KeithO (Oct 22, 2007)

Last one..


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## backpack09 (Oct 22, 2007)

Thank you very much for your help.

You truly are an asset to this community.

I will update this post with pictures when I get the close clearance adapter in.

Dan


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## BrotherBart (Oct 22, 2007)

You're a good man Rod. Great save.


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## KeithO (Oct 22, 2007)

Gooserider, I reposted the pictures in the posts that you moved.  Thanks

Of course I'm not really going to leave the seam facing forward or the labels on, but it does help understand what the manufacturers intended.  The only thing I'm personally not familar with is how to seal the joints of the double wall pipe ?  The connections seem a lot looser than on stovepipe I have dealt with in the past, so I think it would be even more important to seal the joints, but one really can't see what one is doing...

How does one approach this ?  A smear of stove cement on the inside of the female end of each inner pipe prior to assembly ?


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## Gooserider (Oct 22, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> I screwed up, the reply to this posting got posted in the wrong thread (could one of the administrators move it ?)  Here is a set of my pictures with off the shelf parts:
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/9959/



ARGHHH....  I tried to move them, and had partial success - the text appears to have moved, and the post has dissappeared from the original thread (I also deleted your move request in that thread) but the pictures have not moved with the text.  

Craig, is this something you can fix (possibly re-sync the photo database?) or does Keith need to repost his pictures?

Gooserider


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## JohnnyBravo (Oct 23, 2007)

i just finished my install. what i did was cut the outer pipe 1.5" shorter than the inner. then i recrimped the stainless so it would fit into the the stove properly. now i can screw to the inner liner. it was the only way i could see to get my pipe running the correct way and mate properly with the ceiling support.


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## hearthtools (Oct 23, 2007)

JohnnyBravo said:
			
		

> i just finished my install. what i did was cut the outer pipe 1.5" shorter than the inner. then i recrimped the stainless so it would fit into the the stove properly. now i can screw to the inner liner. it was the only way i could see to get my pipe running the correct way and mate properly with the ceiling support.



???
how did you connect your double wall pipe to the support box?
did you have a flue extension sticking out of the box?


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## hearthtools (Oct 23, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> Gooserider, I reposted the pictures in the posts that you moved.  Thanks
> 
> Of course I'm not really going to leave the seam facing forward or the labels on, but it does help understand what the manufacturers intended.  The only thing I'm personally not familar with is how to seal the joints of the double wall pipe ?  The connections seem a lot looser than on stovepipe I have dealt with in the past, so I think it would be even more important to seal the joints, but one really can't see what one is doing...
> 
> How does one approach this ?  A smear of stove cement on the inside of the female end of each inner pipe prior to assembly ?



There is NO need to seal the joints on double wall pipe
Not familiar with what brand you used but most double wall pipes have a good fit.
It can be loose.

I see no reason to seal any kind of joints on wood stove pipe (as long as you dont have a gaping hole in the pipe Joint)
Just a good mechanical fasting (3 screws or rivits) so it dont come apart.

You have have a 1/2 hole in the side of your pipe if you have good draft smoke will not come out.
air will suck into the leaks and out stack.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 23, 2007)

hearthtools said:
			
		

> I see no reason to seal any kind of joints on wood stove pipe (as long as you dont have a gaping hole in the pipe Joint)
> Just a good mechanical fasting (3 screws or rivits) so it dont come apart.
> 
> You have have a 1/2 hole in the side of your pipe if you have good draft smoke will not come out.
> air will suck into the leaks and out stack.



I have to disagree on that one Rod. Besides air leaks reducing overall draft, every pipe leak I have ever had has accumulated layers of creosote right at the leak due to the colder air cooling the gases passing by the leak when they get hit by the air.


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## hearthtools (Oct 23, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> hearthtools said:
> 
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I can see this with a large gap in your pipe fitting because of a half @ss install. If there was a gap any more that a 32nd of an inch in the pipe I would not use it.

but if you are using Prefitting pipe Double or single wall with male and female ends the little hair line gap 32th of an inch or less is not going to be a problem.
if you stove is doing its job Cold air will not be in the house sucking into the pipe.
the air in the house should be warm.


if the double wall pipe was any good there is no need to seal each joint for it is not a POSITIVE pressure system.


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## rhetoric (Oct 23, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Part of the father-in-law job description is to argue with the son-in-law.



That made me laugh out loud.


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## JohnnyBravo (Oct 23, 2007)

hearthtools said:
			
		

> JohnnyBravo said:
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the adapter from class a to stove pipe had a male (crimped) end on it that fit into the inner pipe. the top end of my pipe was also crimped on the outer casing. the way they went together was kinda cool the inner sleeve crimps down and the outer sleeve crimps up. seemed very easy to funk up. it was hard to tell if the inner liner was fitting inside. i also cut the top of the pipe where it met the addapter so as not to have any exposed crimped ends. sorry i wish i had a cammera so i could explain this better.


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## Gooserider (Oct 23, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> Gooserider, I reposted the pictures in the posts that you moved.  Thanks
> 
> Of course I'm not really going to leave the seam facing forward or the labels on, but it does help understand what the manufacturers intended.  The only thing I'm personally not familar with is how to seal the joints of the double wall pipe ?  The connections seem a lot looser than on stovepipe I have dealt with in the past, so I think it would be even more important to seal the joints, but one really can't see what one is doing...
> 
> How does one approach this ?  A smear of stove cement on the inside of the female end of each inner pipe prior to assembly ?



Great, glad you made it work for the photos, but how did you get the stove to draft sideways like that?   

Gooserider


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## Gunner (Oct 23, 2007)

ICC doublewall is tight... no need to cement it.


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## KeithO (Oct 23, 2007)

Part of the problem is that one just can't see the fitup of the 2 inners at all.   I am amazed at how loose it goes together.   I thought some stove cement wouldn't hurt.  I have done that before with single wall but it is easy to see what is going on and the fit up was also much tighter.  The double wall is made by Selkirk.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 23, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Great, glad you made it work for the photos, but how did you get the stove to draft sideways like that?
> 
> Gooserider



OK. Time to define roles here.

Gooserider = Moderator

BroBart = Comedian


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## hearthtools (Oct 23, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
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you know there are 100's of comedians out of work you you guys are trying to make jokes?


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## BrotherBart (Oct 23, 2007)

hearthtools said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
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Hey, comedians out of work hang out on Forums. Stove shop owners out of work host Forums.


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## Gooserider (Oct 23, 2007)

One thing that might help to clarify - the outside wall doesn't really matter in terms of flow direction - ignore it.  The INSIDE pipe should be like a cascade of funnels with the small ends pointing down, going one to the next until you get to the stove.  As long as the insides all have the little / crimped / male ends pointing down and going INSIDE the pipes below and OUTSIDE the pipes above, then all is well, and you do whatever it takes to make the outside pipes go together properly.

At least that's the way it seems to me...

Gooserider


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## kjsnooks (Oct 23, 2007)

That makes perfect sense gooserider. So does the pipe working on negative pressure so air will be sucked in not smoke coming out if everything is working correctly. Those are valid points i can take to my pa-in-law, now maybe he will leave me the heck alone.....or not.


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