Another IS question

[ambull01]

I apologize if this has been explained already. Been super duper busy with work and life in general that I haven't been able to visit this site for a while. I've also forgotten much of what I learned from reading posts lol.

Anyway, I placed an order for a IS on the last day of the sale. I couldn't decide whether I wanted the works or the plain model. Some details:

House build in 1891. Victorian style.
Three levels but third level is used as a cardio room and storage area for now. Second level is the bedrooms. First level is where the stove will be.
I've had some issues with my tiny insert pumping out enough heat this past winter (dog's water dish had a layer of ice in it several times). I have some plans in place to help improve this (i.e. cutting out transom area of doorways and installing a grate, possibly attaching ceiling duct work from stove room to family room, etc).
Stove will hopefully be used to heat the whole house. I disconnected all the electric baseboard heaters but I'm going to listen to @begreen and reconnect them to serve as a backup.
It's about 2,400 square feet. Kinda embarrassing but I'm not sure if that includes the third floor.
Super old, drafty windows. Large windows too.

Okay, now to my question. Does it make sense for me to get the soapstone or should I just save some cash and roll with the firebrick? Does the soapstone make a huge difference? I asked the Woodstock guy about soapstone but I wasn't too satisfied with his answer. Hoping begreen sees this because he knows my house layout.

 

[Jafo]

You may want to consider the OAK attachment since you are in such a drafty house. I haven't fired my IS up yet, so can't say for sure about the soapstone, but by all reports, it holds heat for a LONG time.

 

[ambull01]

You may want to consider the OAK attachment since you are in such a drafty house. I haven't fired my IS up yet, so can't say for sure about the soapstone, but by all reports, it holds heat for a LONG time.

So you just bought one too?

As for the soapstone, lets say I'll burn 24/7. Ideally I'll start just one fire the beginning of wood burning season and run it all the through. The modest burn times posted by the company is 14 hours I believe. I've heard that's 14 hours running it pretty hard. If that's the case, is soapstone and holding heat for a long time really needed?

Also, how do they get away with lining the firebox with soapstone with secondary tubes? I thought firebrick was kinda needed in secondary stoves to reflect some of the heat back into the firebox which with combustion?

 

[OhioBurner©]

Mine isnt Victorian but about the same size or larger and drafty (and the 100+ yr old half of it poorly insulated). I just ordered one too. But I have a pellet stove on the older side of the house to make up for it. Never had ice in the dogs water though!! 40's a few times in the upstairs and 50's in the main part of the house, including the room with my wood stove, during the coldest parts of winter. Don't have much advise to offer, just saying we're in the same boat. I'm not putting any thought into the soapstone as functional, just that perhaps its more durable in the long run than brick and I'd like to get some personalized artwork on mine and the soapstone should look nice through the side medallions. If not interested in the custom art stuff, I'd probably just consider the ash pan as the only option personally.

I'm really curious to so how it will do in both our situations. I'd say heating all 2400+ is a stretch, if its poorly insulated/drafty. And I wouldn't count on 14 hr burns in those situations. I might have to stretch it to 14 still, because thats how long I'm out of the house for work, but again I have the pellet stove for supplemental during those times.

 

[TheRambler]

Soapstone liner will let the firebox maintain a higher average temp for cat or secondary combustion. You are right, during 24/7 burning you wont notice a HUGE difference, but will notice a difference. Less time spent getting up to cat temp after a reload being a big one. The biggest payoff would be noticed during shoulder season use when your not quite into 24/7 burning yet.

 

[mellow]

Soapstone is just a heat sponge, soaks it up and slowly evenly releases it. If the stove is in a large room with plenty of airflow I would go for firebrick so the BTU's get out to as much of the house as possible, I would only do soapstone if it is in a small room and you do not want to overheat that room.

 

[ambull01]

Mine isnt Victorian but about the same size or larger and drafty (and the 100+ yr old half of it poorly insulated). I just ordered one too. But I have a pellet stove on the older side of the house to make up for it. Never had ice in the dogs water though!! 40's a few times in the upstairs and 50's in the main part of the house, including the room with my wood stove, during the coldest parts of winter. Don't have much advise to offer, just saying we're in the same boat. I'm not putting any thought into the soapstone as functional, just that perhaps its more durable in the long run than brick and I'd like to get some personalized artwork on mine and the soapstone should look nice through the side medallions. If not interested in the custom art stuff, I'd probably just consider the ash pan as the only option personally.
I'm really curious to so how it will do in both our situations. I'd say heating all 2400+ is a stretch, if its poorly insulated/drafty. And I wouldn't count on 14 hr burns in those situations. I might have to stretch it to 14 still, because thats how long I'm out of the house for work, but again I have the pellet stove for supplemental during those times.

Well your winters are probably much colder than mine but MD saw some pretty low temps. There were a few negative overnight temps this past winter (factoring in windchill) and that's when I believe the dog's water froze.

This past winter was freaking miserable! We were sitting on the couch wearing sweaters underneath winter coats and covered with blankets lol. I hope we never get like that again.

Only thing I want is a white or light colored paint. Don't really care about the cook top option, andiron things, or the side art. Guess it sounds like the plain model with just the ash pan is the best model for my needs/wants.

Soapstone liner will let the firebox maintain a higher average temp for cat or secondary combustion. You are right, during 24/7 burning you wont notice a HUGE difference, but will notice a difference. Less time spent getting up to cat temp after a reload being a big one. The biggest payoff would be noticed during shoulder season use when your not quite into 24/7 burning yet.

I would have thought the firebrick would let the firebox reach a higher temp. On the other hand a slower release of heat helping the cat get up to burn temp makes sense too. Still not quite sure exactly what constitutes shoulder season but I'm guess MD's milder temps would make soapstone beneficial.

Soapstone is just a heat sponge, soaks it up and slowly evenly releases it. If the stove is in a large room with plenty of airflow I would go for firebrick so the BTU's get out to as much of the house as possible, I would only do soapstone if it is in a small room and you do not want to overheat that room.

The stove room isn't that large but there is lots of airflow. With the tiny insert going and the door open I could feel cold air flowing into the room. Almost felt like a small fan was blowing into the room. So sounds like soapstone would be beneficial in a reasonably tight/well insulated house.

 

[begreen]

I've never burned in the IS and have only seen one once. If they have done a good job the soapstone should reduce room temperature swings as the stove goes through its fuel burning cycles. The added mass of the soapstone should reduce radiant heat from the sides and add better storage of that heat to be released as the stove cools down. If it were my stove I would add the soapstone sides.

 

[Highbeam]

As for the soapstone, lets say I'll burn 24/7. Ideally I'll start just one fire the beginning of wood burning season and run it all the through. The modest burn times posted by the company is 14 hours I believe. I've heard that's 14 hours running it pretty hard. If that's the case, is soapstone and holding heat for a long time really needed?

You already know the answer. A cat stove that is run 24/7 has no use for soapstone. It's a waste. The cat keeps the stove hot all the time so you do not need thermal storage or mass. The stone liner would be a waste.

I shoved nearly 30 cords through a stone non-cat stove and since a non-cat is very peaky in heat output the stone did mellow that out. The tradeoff was a much longer warm up time from cold.

If you don't plan to let the cat go inactive and you do plan to keep burning 24/7 then the stone is a waste of money as far as function is concerned.

Oh and 14 hours is not when running the stove "hard". With a 3 CF firebox and a high btu output rating, the IS should be able to chew through a full load very quickly when running hard. 14-18 hours is when run as low as possible from user reports.

 

[begreen]

There is a benefit to a lot of mass on a steel stove. Our steel stove has a large surrounding mass of cast iron. The heat is not peaky in spite of being in a smallish living room. Comparing the IS to the Princess performance may not be equal. One is a pure cat and the other is a hybrid.

 

[Highbeam]

Comparing the IS to the Princess performance may not be equal. One is a pure cat and the other is a hybrid.

Nor is the hybrid equal to your non-cat T6. Really the IS isn't equal to anything but it is much closer to a princess than a non-cat.

Folks like the OP that use these stoves for 24/7 heat will likely be running them more in the "cat" range.

 

[begreen]

Good points. Not having burned in one I can't really say how large the temp swing would be. I would expect it to be a bit more peaky on reload, but you could be right. Some videos of Woodstock testing though show secondary combustion during the burn.

 

[ambull01]

I've never burned in the IS and have only seen one once. If they have done a good job the soapstone should reduce room temperature swings as the stove goes through its fuel burning cycles. The added mass of the soapstone should reduce radiant heat from the sides and add better storage of that heat to be released as the stove cools down. If it were my stove I would add the soapstone sides.

Is there still a pronounced fuel burning cycle with a cat stove running 24/7? I would think a secondary stove would have more of a burn cycle since they sound a bit more peaky. At least that's what I saw with my insert. Had to get it up to temp before the secondaries activated and it eventually died down after most of the combustible smoke/gases was expended from the wood or the heat dropped down too low. Actually I don't know what the hell I'm saying lol. I have no experience with cat stoves but from what I've read they seem to have less temp fluctuations.

You already know the answer. A cat stove that is run 24/7 has no use for soapstone. It's a waste. The cat keeps the stove hot all the time so you do not need thermal storage or mass. The stone liner would be a waste.
I shoved nearly 30 cords through a stone non-cat stove and since a non-cat is very peaky in heat output the stone did mellow that out. The tradeoff was a much longer warm up time from cold.
If you don't plan to let the cat go inactive and you do plan to keep burning 24/7 then the stone is a waste of money as far as function is concerned.
Oh and 14 hours is not when running the stove "hard". With a 3 CF firebox and a high btu output rating, the IS should be able to chew through a full load very quickly when running hard. 14-18 hours is when run as low as possible from user reports.

What you and Mellow wrote makes the most sense to my limited stove knowledge brain.

14-18 hours running low doesn't sound too great. I'm hoping you're mistaken about that number lol.

 

[begreen]

Some videos of Woodstock testing though show secondary combustion during parts of the burn in their hybrid, particularly if the wood is not fully seasoned. Note the burn with dry wood at 11:05 in the video. It definitely shows secondary burn.

If your budget is constrained you certainly can skip this option. As far as the benefit, give Woodstock a call and ask them what they think and let us know.


And the IS

 

[Highbeam]

14-18 hours running low doesn't sound too great. I'm hoping you're mistaken about that number lol.

Did you expect longer? 18 hours is actually great for a woodstove. You can only beat it with a BK if long burn times are your goal. After BK and Woodstock, the next longest burner is way way lower.

I also run a big 3+CF non-cat and it certainly is peakier and burn times are very short from as little as 3 hours to a max of 12 before I couldn't restart without a match, the heat was mostly gone after 8 hours.

The IS owners seem to really like the available range of burn rates. The hybrid "feature" allows a great fireshow at higher burn rates which some people require.

 

[ambull01]

Did you expect longer? 18 hours is actually great for a woodstove. You can only beat it with a BK if long burn times are your goal. After BK and Woodstock, the next longest burner is way way lower.

I also run a big 3+CF non-cat and it certainly is peakier and burn times are very short from as little as 3 hours to a max of 12 before I couldn't restart without a match, the heat was mostly gone after 8 hours.

The IS owners seem to really like the available range of burn rates. The hybrid "feature" allows a great fireshow at higher burn rates which some people require.

Yes I expected much longer. I've heard BK Kings can go over 30 hours. Granted there is a lot of variation on what people consider burn times.

The big non-cat you're talking about is the NC30? That stove was on my list too but the top vent put it out of the running. Kind of glad now after seeing your burn times with it.

 

[Highbeam]

Yes I expected much longer. I've heard BK Kings can go over 30 hours. Granted there is a lot of variation on what people consider burn times.

The big non-cat you're talking about is the NC30? That stove was on my list too but the top vent put it out of the running. Kind of glad now after seeing your burn times with it.

The BK stoves are in a league of their own with regards to burn times. If low and slow is important to you then you need to be looking at a BK, that is why I have mine. ON LOW, the king will do over 40 hours and the smaller princess at 2.85 CF (smaller than the IS) will do 30 hours on a decades old stove design. Some people are retired and don't mind reloading a stove multiple times per day and some people need more heat than these stoves make on low so they will never see the long burn times. Of course, on low during one of these long burns you will not see flames but just a glowing coal while the cat eats the smoke and makes heat at the low rate specified by the operator.

Burn time is defined by BK as when the cat is active which means it is over 500 degrees right there under the stove top. You'll be active for 30-40 hours on a full load if you want to be.

Next best in this department is Woodstock. Woodstock specifies their burn times but according to owners they can actually burn longer. Still, nowhere near BK long. If I required a rear vent stove today it would be that IS.

 

[Grisu]

Yes I expected much longer. I've heard BK Kings can go over 30 hours. Granted there is a lot of variation on what people consider burn times.

Be also aware that when people talk about 30+ hours they really talk about a LOW heat output in the 10,000 BTU per hour range. I doubt that will be enough for the size and age of your home unless it is in the fifties outside. Realistically, I would expect burn times of maybe 10 hours during winter even with the IS. There are only that many BTUs in 3 cu ft of wood.

 

[ambull01]

If your budget is constrained you certainly can skip this option. As far as the benefit, give Woodstock a call and ask them what they think and let us know.

I don't have the invoice with me but I believe the works was still under $2k. That's a very reasonable price for something that will hopefully heat the whole house and last for several decades I hope (not including the cat). I'll call them tomorrow since I'm off all day. They'll get tired of all my stupid questions quick lol.

The BK stoves are in a league of their own with regards to burn times. If low and slow is important to you then you need to be looking at a BK, that is why I have mine. ON LOW, the king will do over 40 hours and the smaller princess at 2.85 CF (smaller than the IS) will do 30 hours on a decades old stove design. Some people are retired and don't mind reloading a stove multiple times per day and some people need more heat than these stoves make on low so they will never see the long burn times. Of course, on low during one of these long burns you will not see flames but just a glowing coal while the cat eats the smoke and makes heat at the low rate specified by the operator.
Burn time is defined by BK as when the cat is active which means it is over 500 degrees right there under the stove top. You'll be active for 30-40 hours on a full load if you want to be.
Next best in this department is Woodstock. Woodstock specifies their burn times but according to owners they can actually burn longer. Still, nowhere near BK long. If I required a rear vent stove today it would be that IS.

I'm not sure if low and long will really benefit me. My house will probably make a long slow burn inadequate to properly heat the whole living area. The BK burn times are truly impressive.

So BK can go 30-40 hours on a full load and the next best is Woodstock that can only go at most 18 hours!? That's a massive difference.

Be also aware that when people talk about 30+ hours they really talk about a LOW heat output in the 10,000 BTU per hour range. I doubt that will be enough for the size and age of your home unless it is in the fifties outside. Realistically, I would expect burn times of maybe 10 hours during winter even with the IS. There are only that many BTUs in 3 cu ft of wood.

If it's in the fifties outside I just go without heat. Burn times in the neighborhood of 10 hours would be more than enough for me. Thanks

 

[mellow]

Woodstock doesn't have a thermostat on their stoves, that helps immensely with the burn times so it really is hard to compare them.

With my 2.8 cu ft firebox I usually will see 10 hours of meaningful heat per load, I was only getting 7-8 hour burn times when it was below zero this past winter, and that was just to hold my uninsulated house at 65.

Many variables when it comes to burn times, I would expect 8-10 hours and anything extra is great.

 

[Highbeam]

So BK can go 30-40 hours on a full load and the next best is Woodstock that can only go at most 18 hours!? That's a massive difference.

On low, this is correct and don't forget that the Woodstock IS is much larger than the princess sized BK so what this tells you is that they couldn't figure out how to throttle their stove to a low output. BK get's 50% longer burn from a smaller firebox. Other manufacturers have tried but none have accomplished comparable long burn times. I am away from the house 11 hours per day and sleep another 8. Long burn times are extremely important in a home that uses wood for all of the heat.

Unless it is very cold outside I can heat my 1700 SF of 1963 house on low all winter. That's the go-to setting. The trick is that you get that low output all freaking day long and don't need to play catch up all the time like first thing in the morning after your non-cat stopped making heat sometime overnight.

Rear vent, you need a Woodstock. Unless you want to run a pellet stove, those can heat for over 24 hours too.

 

[ambull01]

On low, this is correct and don't forget that the Woodstock IS is much larger than the princess sized BK so what this tells you is that they couldn't figure out how to throttle their stove to a low output. BK get's 50% longer burn from a smaller firebox. Other manufacturers have tried but none have accomplished comparable long burn times. I am away from the house 11 hours per day and sleep another 8. Long burn times are extremely important in a home that uses wood for all of the heat.
Unless it is very cold outside I can heat my 1700 SF of 1963 house on low all winter. That's the go-to setting. The trick is that you get that low output all freaking day long and don't need to play catch up all the time like first thing in the morning after your non-cat stopped making heat sometime overnight.
Rear vent, you need a Woodstock. Unless you want to run a pellet stove, those can heat for over 24 hours too

I know Woodstock is a really small company but it sounds kinda crazy how BK is the only company capable of achieving really long burn times. Seems like it would be fairly easy for experienced stove builders to figure out how BK can burn for X amount of hours and copy it. I read the cats are built by another company too so any stove manufacturer should be able to get their hands on the same model.

Playing catch up sucks. Tried that numerous times with my tiny insert and gave up a lot.

A pellet stove sounds much less labor intensive but that would eliminate the need for all the wood cutting stuff I've bought lol. Unless I use my chainsaw and other items to acquire firewood to sell for cash and buy pellets with the proceeds.

 

[JA600L]

Personally, I wouldn't back down from the soapstone. Getting this stove hot from a cold start is a bit of chore. Take the extra insulation. If it means a faster bypass closing it is worth it.

 

[ambull01]

Personally, I wouldn't back down from the soapstone. Getting this stove hot from a cold start is a bit of chore. Take the extra insulation. If it means a faster bypass closing it is worth it.

Have you done more updates on another site since you've had a full winter season with the stove now?

 

[JA600L]

There isn't too much to update. Everything is working great. It kept me warm all winter. I was impressed with how warm my house was when I came home from work everyday.

Being away 11 hours the Quadra fire 4300 could not cut it and my heat pump was on when I got home. Of course that means the auxiliary came on too everyday.

With the Ideal Steel I was able to set the heat pump at 65 and leave it there. In the coldest parts of the winter it did not kick on. The only time it ran is when I went away for 3 days. Other than that, the Ideal Steel effectively heated my whole house from the basement.

Please note that I also did some major insulating projects prior to this winter that may have improved my results.